The following story literally made me gag. Then want to take a shower. Then want to hold my children close.
Am I over reacting? Probably, but you’re all fairly accustomed to that by now right?
My sister- in-law related this story to me and it has haunted me ever since.. It is in regards to a “friend” of hers.. (You will come to see why the inverted commas are now around the word FRIEND when before this incident they would not have been required.)
Jill* (my sister-in-law) had a couple of the girls from her Mothers group around to her house last week. Let us call them Mother number 2 and Mother number 3.
As lunch time rolled around it became apparent that there would not be enough food in the house to feed everyone so Jill and Mother number 2 said they’d go and get lunch if the Mother number 3 didn’t mind staying with the kids.
Of course she didn’t mind, so off Jill* and Mother number 2 went.
While they were shopping for cheese rolls, sushi and apple slice unspeakable events were unfolding back at the house.
Jill and Mother number 2 were gone for a total of 30 minutes. In those 30 minutes that Mothers group would be CHANGED FOREVER.. (Forever, forever, forever……… - FYI this is a dramatic echo)
Am I building the suspense enough? I still bet you can’t guess what happened..
Jill and Mother number 2 arrived back at the house to find all three children having a nap.
Well done Mother number 3 they exclaimed! Mother number 2 was especially surprised as her child hadn’t been fed yet and was hard to get to sleep when she hadn’t been fed. No milk = no sleep for Mother number 2′s child.
“I’m surprised you could get Misty* to sleep, she hasn’t been fed yet. I always have to give her a feed before she goes down at lunch time. I don’t know what I’ll do when I stop breastfeeding HER.”
Mother number 3 replied:
“Oh, Timmy* skipped his feed and I had a full boob so I popped Misty on it. She guzzled it down and went straight to sleep!”
OH YES. YES SHE DID. YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY SHE DID!
MOTHER NUMBER 3 BREASTFED MOTHER NUMBER 2′s CHILD!
Let us pause here. This is an act that can NEVER BE UNDONE. Never, ever not once ever can it be undone..
It’s like finding out your flatmate has been cleaning the toilet with your toothbrush. You can’t take back all those times you had the brush in your mouth after it had cleaned the crevices of your toilet.
The image of Mother number 3′s nipple in her child’s mouth can NEVER be erased form Mother number 2′s mind. That milk can never be un-drunk.
Yessssss, I know there were wet nurses back in the day and I know some women today use them but for me it’s JUST NOT RIGHT. I’m not saying you are a bad person if you allow some other woman’s boob to go into your babies mouth for nourishment, I’m just saying don’t ever let it be my baby.
Breastfeeding is an intensely personal thing. It is bonding time, it is boobs and nipples and babies and family and well it’s breastfeeding! Who shoves their tit in a random kid’s mouth without at least asking said kid’s Mother first? (Wow that sentence would be SO wrong if taken out of context.)
Mother number 2 apparently lost her shit.
Mother number 3 was ushered out of the house at a rapid pace. It was excruciatingly awkward and none of the girls have been able to speak since.
I don’t think I would recover from that type of thing either.
Am I being a weirdo? I totally accept it if you think I am.. Perhaps I am not as open minded as I thought I was..
How would you react if this was your child?
*Jill, Misty and Timmy’s names have been changed to protect their dignity and identity.
Em Rusciano appears on Network Ten’s ’7pm Project’ and the Nine Network’s Mornings with Kerri Anne, You should follow her on Twitter here and read her blog here. No really you should
How would you handle it if someone breastfed your child? Would you ever breastfeed someone else’s baby if you could?
Comments
600 Comments so far
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Oh get over it you lot! Its just a part of the human body that serves a function and breast feeding other people’s baby’s happens in loads of other cultures. I’d be way more annoyed if another parent gave my kid a mars bar rather than breast milk. Sure its a bit awkward but its not a big deal in the slightest. I know plenty of middle class “normal” mum’s who’ve done this. There is a reason to be obsessed with breast milk and its protective factors.
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Oh, and let’s not forget this baby has a father who probably doesn’t appreciate some random boob being shoved in his child’s mouth.
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The obsession with breast milk in this country is astounding. We are a first world nation with hygienic food and water supplies. Those women who seem to think breastfeeding is a life & death situation for their child clearly have some attachment to the process which runs deeper than just “feeding”. Why did the mother not phone the other one to say the baby was hungry and tired and will you be long? Sounds very suss to me.
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Makes me want to vomit. Disgusting! I choose not to breastfeed by own babies let alone allow someone else to stick their breast in my babies mouth. I would never speak to her again and would be FURIOUS!
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I’m disappointed that, given the overall response by readers that the tone wasn’t appropriate, MamaMia and/or Em have not responded or apologised for perhaps vilifying a woman based on heresay before thousands and thousands of people (bullying).
I don’t think this article passed MamaMia ‘dinner party’ rules of discussion- being rude or abusive. It could have been written, discussing the same thing, without being rude and abusive towards that mother (“made me want to gag, hold my children close etc”).
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Yes ‘Dinner Party Rules”… but in this case it really feels like the more passionate commenters were being treated like young children being reminded to “mind their manners” and keep their elbows off the table and yet across the table sits the “adult” guest of honour who belches, swears, spills food and chews with their mouth open.
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I would be horrified if another mother breastfeed my child, particularly without consent. It is food expelled from one body to nourish another; how do I know what another mother has put into their system prior to breastfeeding a child? It is utterly rude and inappropriate, and I would have lost my shit too. So would my husband.
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Wow. In four years of reading MM, I’d have to say this is the worst post I’ve ever read. It’s inflammatory, nasty and seems to almost invite commenters to pile judgement and criticism on this mother. There are NO details given about what went on while the other mothers went out and…actually, I don’t even care about the details or the story. I’m bothered because the tone of the piece contradicts everything MM stands for (empathy, open-mindedness, not vilifying others, presenting all the facts…). This awful, awful piece just should not have been published. I only hope the mother doesn’t see it. How horrible would you feel…
It is heartening to see that the MM audience has categorically rejected the tone of this post, and is testament to the community that comes here. I sometimes wish that when these things were misjudged, there could be more acknowledgement that “we got this one wrong”, rather than a pile of excuses and hypocritical explanations.
Disappointing.
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Ok I have been following this for days and I am at a complete loss…. I am in the Middle East so maybe there is some weather changes or something in the air in the Australia that has turned what is normally an intelligent, diverse, thought provoking group of women into complete and utter crazies!
A large portion of you are claiming to have no issues with the article’s content but with the attacking and vilification of Mother number 3.
But Mother number 3 is in no way identified (unless you are all going to be a bunch of stalkers and are going to try and track this person down and put it all together… which really is weird and sick) and who cares if the story is really about Em’s SIL or really about somebody else. That is the point – you CANNOT identify the person the article is written about.
I don’t see how the Mamamia team can win on this one because no matter what they do people will not be happy. I think you are all destroying the very thing that is Mamamia and it is really sad.
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But Mother number 3 is in no way identified (unless you are all going to be a bunch of stalkers and are going to try and track this person down and put it all together… which really is weird and sick)
You’ve missed the whole point regarding the identifying of mother number 3. It’s not the issue of complete strangers living on the other side of the world tracking down who this woman is. It’s the extended social network of Em Rusciano who follows everything that she writes because they know her or at least feel that they know her.
By extension, they also know who her sister-in-law is and who her sister-in-law’s circle of acquaintances are. It would be a simple matter of deduction for these people to work out who mother number 3 is…once that was established the e-mails would be flowing in all directions like the waves in a lake when a bolder has been thrown into the middle of it.
Until mother number three is inundated by hate e-mails similar in context to this hate mamamia post. I can just imagine that sort of things they would be saying to her as they gleefully tell her that she is the subject of a hate post that is read by thousands of people all over the world.
I think that you need to develop a bit of compassion and empathy for victims of Internet hate campaigns before you blithely announce that only stalkers would work out who mother number 3 is.
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You’ve missed the whole point regarding the identifying of mother number 3. It’s not the issue of complete strangers living on the other side of the world tracking down who this woman is. It’s the extended social network of Em Rusciano who follows everything that she writes because they know her or at least feel that they know her
Umm…. correct me if I am wrong but of all the ridiculous comments I have read on here nobody seems to be putting there hand up from this category of people you have suggested should be upset….
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Your right we should only ever read and write happy posts that make everybody think they are wonderful and the world is all roses!
Get over it this is life…. there are consequences of actions and quite frankly mother number 3 made a terrible decision and will no doubt be paying the consequences for awhile. But not forever…. nobody lost a limb, evrbody is still alive and life will move on…. perhaps some of the readers of this blog should also get a life and move on.
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I wouldn’t have had a problem with another woman feeding my child and I myself have fed another womans child (she was present too, I was engorged and my children were refusing to feed). I do think the issue here is not with cross nursing but with consent. I would never feed another womans child without permission except in dire circumstances, I have had a blood transfusion after the birth of my last child and now I have breast cancer and I wouldn’t expect another mother to be blase about either of those things.
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One word: allergies.
First, it’s extremely hard to avoid the Big 8 allergens unless you are absolutely strict with your diet. You have to worry about sneaky dairy showing up in processed meats, tree nuts that might be considered nuts by some but seeds by others (e.g. cashew), soy in everything, etc. You have to worry about Big 8 allergens showing up even in medications–many meds use milk as a binder if they’re in tablet form, and eggs are a component of some vaccines like the flu shot. And yes, some kids are THAT sensitive.
Add that to the prospect of cross-reactivity; a child that has a banana allergy but has never tried mango could react to mango in the mom’s breastmilk. Children who are allergic to pollen may be allergic to many foods (Oral Allergy Syndrome) and those allergies undiscovered if the food the mom ate is different from the foods the child’s biological mother ate. The 4-day rule is the rule of thumb for introducing new solids, but moms trying an elimination diet for their pre-solid-food babies won’t appreciate having to guess for the next 4 days if their kids are reacting to something they ate or something the “donor” mom ate. If you’ve never been through this process of guesswork, consider yourself extremely lucky; it’s not easy on allergic families.
This doesn’t even cover medications. It’s possible to be anaphylactic to antibiotics even at a young age, and meds are frequently passed through breastmilk. The concentration of meds can vary from person to person and feed to feed; it may be possible for the baby to get enough of a dose of antibiotics to react. At the very least, it can throw a baby’s system off; when I was breastfeeding on antibiotics, my baby’s dirty diapers were thrown off until we got her on a probiotic.
There is also just the pure ethical situation of consent. If you’re going to say breastmilk is good and potent in creating health, that means it’s potent. You can’t say it’s so crucial for babies in one breath and then say in another that it was one feed so it’s not a big deal. Any substance with potency should require consent on the part of the person or his/her parents if the child is a minor. I’d say this whether the baby was being fed breastmilk, formula, or solid food. Any of these are nourishment, any of these are potent, any of these require permission, or you are taking away a fundamental right of that child and child’s parents to decide the best course of care.
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You’re right Lana (Oct 24, 10.41). It isn’t a post about the complexities of culture and history, the article is about permission- but there is now the issue of ethics when you decide to vilify a person online to an audience of thousands… Surely as a publisher (MamaMia), and as a writer (Em), you hold an ethical responsibilty to at least consider the different sides and be fair in your writing before potentially damaging a persons reputation (a woman in Em’s sister in law’s mother group).
The language and comparisons used in this piece were appalling- should we teach our daughters to be bitchy if they don’t like something, or should we teach them to think it through, discuss with an open mind, form an opinion and learn from mistakes? It is possible to make an opinion piece and be opposed without vilifying the person. It’s possible this woman regrets her actions too, would not do this again, but had only good intentions.
As a publisher, you hold the responsibility to be fair in your telling of an story that may affect the subject’s life. Start conversation, but don’t condemn the subjects without knowing their viewpoint and many other details.
I found it insulting as a reader, to think we would enjoy reading such a ‘bitchy’ piece and very disempowering to women (and against the general message MamaMia usually conveys, and which I love). I agree it was an issue of permission. I have no children yet but work with them while I study full time, and I do believe it would have upset me. I don’t know how I would have handled the situation if I were in it, but it would have been private.
My problem lies in the tone and language of this article… In particular- this phrase made me feel really sad: “Then want to take a shower. Then want to hold my children close.”
The article didn’t refer to different sides and was written from HERE SAY. This piece is simply mean gossip… and if incorrect and the woman can be identified, and her reputation damaged- slander. I love MamaMia, but this piece is unworthy of it.
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Couldn’t have put it better myself.
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Oh for crying out loud – what a lot of rot. It was funny, it was just a funny article. I don’t think it was meant to be a huge commentry on anything – it was just funny. Why have we lost our ability to innocently laugh, just laugh at a story told in a funny way. Not laugh at anyone in the story but just laugh at the story.
Well done Em – i laughed!
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Making fun at other’s expense isn’t funny.
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i dont have a problem with the tone of the article.
its nice to get some different flavours on mamamia, vanilla is good too, but thats why i like mamamia.
i very much hope to see Em back on MM as a frequent writer.
As to the content itself – the breast feeding of someone else child, withoout permission, is truly truly truly wrong and just….so wrong.
i fully support breastfeeding – ones own child.
or bottle feeding if you feel thats best for your child too – no judgements!
but holy heck yes do i ever judge a mother thinking it was ok to breast feed another womans child.
To those comparing this t wetnurses and starving children in africa – context is everything. We live in a modern day society where wet nurses are not commonly used. and a baby who is crying for half an hour (IF she was at all) is still no excuse to feed another child some of your bodily fluid wiithout the mothers permission.
your friend didnt over react at all IMO Em.. And your reaction is exactly how i would feel as well.
like i said i h ope to see more of you on mm.
thats all.
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I really liked Em, even way back in her Australian Idol days when I cheered her on as a young, struggling single Mum going for her dream.
But this article really disappointed me – I doubt I’ll be bothering to read anything she writes from here on in – unless it’s a clarification, explanation or apology for this awful awful piece.
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This is going to be my last post on this issue because I’m finding that it is really bothering me, especially after Mia commented again in her “Open Post” that responses to Em’s post had been passionate. I especially noted Mia’s claim that Mamamia protects their writers and the people who comment on posts.
Again I ask, as I have a number of times below, what about protecting the people who are the target of these posts? As many, many commentators have suggested below, it wouldn’t be hard to uncover the identity of mother 3, and worse, for mother 3 to work out that she is the target of this pretty bitchy story telling.
I believe this post is a major failing of ethics. I was wondering in my bed last night who I could contact to make a formal complaint. Then I was wondering why I am so upset about it. Here’s one of the reasons why:
I am a volunteer teacher for the new NSW Primary School ethics program. In that program, we encourage the kids to discuss everyday scenarios where our actions might help or harm others. We talk about ways to judge the rightness or wrongness, acceptability or unacceptability of our actions. For instance, we talk about whether we can easily say that an action — such as posting on the internet a second hand story criticising the actions of someone else — is clearly right or wrong. We consider the consequences for ourselves and for others. On balance, will it harm others even if it will help me? And we wonder what the world would be like if everybody engaged in the same behaviour we are contemplating. What if everybody started posting extremely negative, second hand stories about everybody else where no one got the chance to defend themselves? What would life be like if that was the case?
With this program we are encouraging the children to consider what being ethical is, what living an ethical life might be like, to develop empathy for others, to understand the points of view of others, to take other people’s feelings into consideration.
Kids can do it! They are amazing. But what hope do we have if some adults around them, including adults of great influence and power in our society (for instance ones with blogs read by thousands of people, ones who appear on television), don’t appear to behave in an ethical way and/or seem unwilling to discuss or defend the ethics of their actions?
There are two other reasons why this post and the Mamamia staff’s responses have upset me.
First, I have felt sympathy when in the past Mia has described her distress at being targeted by sustained and, to her, unreasonable criticism after a post or tv appearance. Yet Mia commented below that she couldn’t see the problem in Em writing this post the way that she did or of opening mother 3 to public criticism in the way that she has without knowing the full story or giving mother 3 the chance to defend herself. Let me be clear, Mia and her writers choose to put themselves in the public eye. The targets of these posts do not.
Second, in many other posts on this blog, Mia and her writers have talked about the evils of mothers unreasonably judging other mothers. Of how unreasonable criticism can really hurt people. Don’t get me wrong, I understand the actions of mother 3 are worthy of discussion (is it okay to feed another person’s baby etc etc). But there was ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for the post to be written in the puerile, sensational way that it was. Except for “entertainment”. And if this post was all about humiliating another mother for entertainment, well then see my point about ethics above.
This post and the way in which it has been defended by Mia have left a horrible taste in my mouth. Makes me want to gag, have a shower and hold my babies close!
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Hi Mother R, you’ve hit the nail on the head: it’s the double standard that absolutely infuriates me. This is a nasty, second-hand story, yet it is tolerated and defended. What it teaches us is: it is okay to vilify someone so long as it’s entertaining and it gets us all talking.
What an appalling lesson for our children.
And you are so right about the internet. This post and these comments are going to be available on the internet for ever after. Just like the evil “nipple in baby’s mouth”, this post can never be unwritten and the potential consequences to mother 3 never undone should she read this.
I hope that Em and Mia feel it is worth it.
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Great post Amanda!
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Great post Amanda. I have also been pondering the ethics of publishing this piece.
Could someone from MM please advise whether any attempt was made to fact-check this story? Did anyone on staff call Em’s SIL or attempt to speak to any of the mothers in the story, particularly Mothers 2 and 3, to verify if the story as told by EM was true and factual. Were mothers 2 and 3 given any right to comment on the story?
If no fact-checking took place, I would argue that any and all mentions of Em’s sister-in-law should have been removed from the piece. A sentence such as, “I recently heard a story, I’m not sure if it’s urban legend or true, but it has really got me thinking about how I would respond if placed in this situation…” would have negated the need to provide ANY identifying factors while also giving Em the right to write freely as a columnist about HER response.
So, Mia, can you please advise – did any fact-checking take place? You talk of “great lengths” in protecting identities, but I’d like to know if these “great lengths” included verifying the actual truth of the story.
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I have a question – what would your reaction have been if Mother 3 gave the baby formula? Would you have the same thoughts?
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Yes, a simple phone call would have cleared it with the mum. I wouldn’t have wanted a woman who I have only just met (if we had met in a mother’s group) to feed my baby with her milk and whatever is in her diet/ milk stream.
On a side note, I remember how great it was when Salma Hayek fed that baby in Africa(?). We could probably do with some milk banks to be used for sick or malnourished babies.
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Why couldnt this woman call the mother to ask if it was ok first?
Wrong wrong wrong!
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The whole thing is wrong wrong wrong
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Just to throw an extremely random perspective into this thread: in Islam breastfeeding someone else’s baby equals creating a relationship with them that is recognised in Islamic law – they become mother/child or brothers/sisters by wet-nursing and are forbidden to marry each other like real siblings. In fact they get all the rights a brother/sister/child receive from their blood siblings, even inheritance.
For a example, I have a boy and my friend has a girl, my friend breastfeeds my boy, so now her girl and my boy are wet-nurse siblings so they can’t ever marry each other and the girl doesn’t have to wear her hijab in front of him or his father, just like she wouldn’t have to in front of her blood brother/father. Plus if his father dies she is eligible to receive part of his inheritance. It gets more complicated!….
So from a Muslim’s perspective I would be extremely annoyed (not disgusted at the least) if someone breast fed my future children without asking because they are forcing that relationship that I might not want my children to have with them and I have a right to decide who has that special relationship with my child. Don’t have kids yet so don’t have to worry about it but still… how annoying. A bit of courtesy wouldn’t have gone astray, a 1 min phone call. I think the mum had a right to be annoyed with her…
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Thanks ,I was about to write this point.
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I have 4 children & I haven’t breastfed any of them. Personally I don’t see it as a massive big deal. In saying that I probably would have seriously freaked out if it happened with my 1st baby. At the end of the day the woman wasn’t a stranger sitting on a street corner she was a friend simply trying to help out. The baby had some milk and was soundly asleep – problem solved.
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I would have gone Bat Shit Crazy. Completely inappropriate.
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I would say that at times I would have been classed as an overprotective mother – and I’m sure that it can be detrimental.
But I have to say that as children grow, you can set the standards and look after them to the best of your ability but you can’t own them. I ask all the hysterical mothers how you are going to go when the undesirable boyfriend/girlfriend turns up and wants to put his/her tongue down your now teenager’s throat? And the rest. That might have you gagging, showering and changing the toothbrushes.
Yes I know, they can choose and the baby can’t, but you can’t control it and, you know, I think that baby probably didn’t give a toss. Already making her way in the world and grabbing dinner out while you went out for sushi. Hard to take not being indespensable isn’t it?
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Hey MotherR, I think that feeling of being indispensable is a big thing with helicopters. They seem to have a need to be there all the time for their kids, and I think they encourage the dependence. And I totally agree with you about the reactions to this – I think that need to be needed by the mother is a massive part of the reactions.
Even now if you go back through the posts there are barely any talking about what was best for the baby, which if you take my “what a reasonable person would do” line, means that bub was upset, tired and hungry and this woman did what she knew would work to calm bubs down.
And while I acknowledge that disease transmission is a valid concern, I think most people are using it as a veil to obscure their disgust at what happened but appear not to.
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Consent, consent, consent. And disease transmission. Those are the issues here. I am a breast feeding mother of a four week old and have fed my two older children as well. BF is an incredibly intimate experience and I would not want another mother to feed my child nor would I feed someone’s elses. This mother shared her bodily fluid with an infant who could contract HIV or hepatitis. Just as donated blood is screened for disease, so is expressed milk for milk banks. Really poor judgement to feed someone else’s bubba without permission.
I do think this arrival is hysterical in tone though and could have been more effectively presented in a much calmer manner.
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I haven’t come across the surrogate boob thing before, but I have come across donor breastmilk before and I’m totally OK with it. Frankly, I think I’d just be grateful my kid got fed and put to sleep. Surely a shattered playgroup is a bit of an over-reaction!
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Can MM please proof read/edit their posts?
It’s not “relate” a story, it’s relay a story.
Sure, comments are going to have errors/typos but don’t you guys read the submissions before you post them? It’s unprofessional! We expect more from a team of people who profess a love of writing and communicating.
It undermines the quality of the message when it’s full of embarrassing mistakes. This seems to happen a lot on MM.
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I’d love for you to do a day’s work experience here to see how frantic things are. But sure, we’re human and we make mistakes. We have absolutely no problem admitting that. Given the sheer volume we pump out, it’s statistically VERY likely anyhow … but thanks for the feedback
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Goodness. Talk about not being able to take constructive criticism! Kate is right. I’m sorry but the proofreading is consistently very sloppy. I used to point out the obvious ones but have given up.
Volume pumped out aside. You only need one or two people who are fastidious copyeditors/proofreaders to give everything a final once over. It doesn’t matter which mascara they use or whether they wear witty shoes either. You could even keep them locked in a room if they are ugly or unfashionable, and let them out for toilet breaks only.
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Couldn’t agree more MotherR. It’s not just MM, it’s pretty much every online site, newspaper and e-mag. The death of sub-editing is a sad, sad thing.
Rick – your office might be frantic, but most offices are. Having a sub-editor on staff or working freelance should be a priority. It would actually lessen the load.
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Of course it would lessen the load. But we deal with what we’ve got and, bless, we do the best we can. I’m surprised we don’t make MORE mistakes
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I’m sorry, but that’s a cop-out response. Clearly you don’t regard sub-editing/fact-checking/proofreading as important enough to employ a dedicated sub-editor. Nor do you acknowledge the importance of such a role in your organisation.
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Yep I agree with you. By extension, it also upsets me a little how no one seems to care that this is happening. It is fast becoming the norm with online content.
And the above is a more general comment, not so much MM specifically.
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I hope all of you become columnists one day to ensure that all of your spelling is perfect. Get over yourselves, it’s the internet.
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“I’d love for you to do a day’s work experience here to see how frantic things are.”
What a patronising response.
I think (as it seems a lot of people do) that you guys should take the criticism on board. After all, we are the readers, that is the customers.
It shows a lack of respect for your audience when there are as many errors that appear in the posts on this site.
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Kate, the mistake you pointed out wasn’t even a mistake. We fix ours whenever and wherever they arise. That’s the best we can do.
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Rick – I think you need to be able to take on board constructive criticism. This is not the first time you have come back in a patronising and defensive manner to a comment. It is unprofessional. It also clearly does not uphold the much-promoted “dinner party” standards.
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Um, are you sure ‘relate’ hasn’t been used correctly? To relate means to tell.
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Yes, I think you are right. You could use either here I think and you could do a lot of hair splitting over the subtle differences but Kate is still right about the general presentation and maybe her error spotting went into overdrive because she is so used to seeing them.
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I think you can “relate” a story. I certainly don’t find this site to be badly proof-read
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My reply to this was eaten or deleted, I’m not sure which! I agree with you and would like to point out that sometimes the errors are glaring, such as when you hover over this story: “Would you every breastfeed someone else’s childs?” If I can take time to proofread an email that goes to one person, surely MM staff can take time to proofread articles being published to such a wide audience! I understand the fast-paced environment that you operate in, but a few extra minutes would add considerably to the credibility and professionalism of this site.
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I think that this article was written in a manner that was meant to entertain – but all it really did was come across as immature.
I would be uncomfortable if a woman breastfed my baby without permission – I don’t know what medication she might be taking or what diseases she may be suffering from…
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I am not opposed to someone bf my child or me bf their child….with a conversation and consent and agreement.
Not to be too freaky but it is a bodily fluid. Was there alcohol or drug consumption ect?
Really, just needed to talk before acting. That is the violation to me
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um, what would have been wrong with a quick phone call to check?
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People that are grossed out by wet nursing are thinking of breasts sexually….. I find this post completely immature.
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No. I am thinking of disease transmission and the complete overstepping of a boundary.
Would you be ok with someone else giving your child alcohol? Or would you consider that a boundary?
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It’s only a big deal to the mothers – who really need to get over themselves.
We live is a HIGHLY uptight society who revere their own boobs as something of a phenomenon … when they are not.
The only thing I may have been a little off with is not being asked. But if mom #3 would have said to mom #2 “Hey if Misty gets raunchy you mind if I feed her?”
Milk is milk – unless mom #3 was a raging alcoholic, hot jalapeno eater or was ‘known’ for doing this … I don’t see what the problem really is.
The problem is clearly with the moms, not the act.
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Correct. All hysterics and pearl clutching.
And your jalepeno comment reminds me again of the allergy question, and if you have a sensitive or allergic baby, it’s highly likely that it’s your own breastmilk that is affecting your baby (as allergic tendencies are passed down) and another person’s milk might even be a welcome break for them.
Happy for people (experts) to crush me for this suggestion but when you do, can you please tell me if you have found a solution for my child’s perennial rhinitis and seasonal hayfever.
‘Like’ button not working yet.
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I support the CONCEPT of wet-nursing – but asking consent to do anything to someone else’s baby is key because you don’t always know what health issues may be affected. I have a baby girl who is severely allergic to a number of food groups so if she was to ingest someone else’s breast milk and they had eaten dairy products, eggs, soy, nuts or wheat (how many people exclude those from her diet – except me that is) she would get very sick perhaps go into anaphylactic shock. We have been told we need to get her an epipen when she weighs 8kg… so no, it would not be a welcome break. By the way, google the GAPS diet – it may be of help to you.
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That’s the second mention of eating chilli I’ve seen – I eat chilli and breastfeed. Why is it a problem?
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@Kris – some kids are sensitive to various things – my son was fine with chilli, but was horrendous if I ate too much broccoli when he as a newborn. I can also relate to the allergy thing. I have had to cut out dairy as it triggers my son’s dairy allergy and I would be furious if someone had fed my child without checking first.
Really, I think as far as the squeamishness factor goes, the mums should totally get over themselves – there is nothing inherently “icky” about feeding someone else’s baby, and discussions like this have an incredibly negative impact on important issues like milksharing, and also contributing to the general attitude that breastfeeding is somehow dirty and secretive.
However doing it without asking the mum first is completely unacceptable. You assume in a mother’s group that you can safely leave your kids with another mum while you pop out the door – after all, it’s what makes them so fantastic – but if a mother is going to take an enormous liberty like that with your child, then it undermines that trust completely.
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I thought that was what was being referred to, but that it was specifically mentioned a couple of times got me a bit worried! It has been lumped in with drugs and booze, FFS!
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I think it’s just ‘lumped in’ with drugs and booze because she wasn’t writing a thesis but just a short post.
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Both times that I’ve noticed it, Booze! Drugs! Chilli!!!!!! Pearl clutching, indeed.
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No, I guess what I was trying to say was that I thought it was sooooo beneficial that I breastfed for so long but in hindsight, with a bit of an allergic child (with food sensitivities) I wonder if it would have been better to stop earlier and thus not given the child all the substances I was eating in addition to their own fairly controlled diet at the time, being a toddler.
We will never know the answer to this because you can’t do it twice, but it hinges on the question of how much of what you eat (and in what form) ends up in the breast milk and does it prevent them reacting to those foods later, or make them more likely to react?
And in relation to this topic, how is another woman’s breast milk any worse for my baby than perhaps mine was (excluding all such things as diseases and drugs etc.) given that allergies are passed on genetically and therefore it’s highly likely that I may have been exacerbating his likelihood of future allergies? Just often wonder – something else to beat myself up over…
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Every baby is different. When I ate curries and breasfed my first baby she would suffer terribly from wind. Yet it didnt bother my other kids.
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Yeah I thought that’s all it would be, hence my questioning it. Hardly mainlining heroin then breastfeeding though, is it?
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Uhh… this really isn’t a big deal. At all. It’s been done for centuries throughout human culture.
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I really don’t see the big deal….the baby needed to eat, she fed it, she should be thankful that that women would sacrifice her own baby’s milk for her child. A good mother that had a nursing baby shouldn’t have left her baby if she thought she would need milk!!! Get over it!!!! I heard a story of a celebrity that nursed a hungry baby while visiting another country, the baby was hungry, she had milk to offer…the baby wasn’t hurt in the process, full, sleepy and content!
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It happened to me over 25 years ago when a friend offered to look after baby so hubby and I could go for a walk in the rain forest near her house. We were exhausted by sleepless nights and welcomed the chance for timeout Same scenario. 30 minutes. Returned. Baby sleeping. Delight turned to shock when she said she had breastfed him, but I put it into perspective. She was a good healthy earthy mother and my baby was sleeping at last. the weirdness passed (mostlyy) and I felt deep appreciation for a good woman..who had calmed my baby and given me some space. In fact many years later I fed another woman’s baby (at her request) when she was in the throes of dealing with an older child with cancer.
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What’s the big deal? I fed my sisters baby the other day when she was overtime at the doctors. I did jokingly say to her not to worry about being late as I could feed her. She was crying and tired so I fed her. All this discussion about not knowing if people were on drugs etc etc is ridiculous. Would you leave your child with someone who you remotely thought could be a drug user?? Would you not know if your friends baby was lactose intolerant etc so as not to cause any reactions? There are VERY few people I would leave my baby with fullstop. I would not be concerned if any of them fed my child. I can understand the permission thing but not the negative comments about cross feeding. We’re not talking swapping parties. Get over it!!
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I was thinking about this too Holly – I probably know more about my mother’s group friends than I do about a LOT of my other, older friends. I think that the nature of mothers groups in the beginning lends itself to sharing more than you normally would with relative strangers. So many people are saying “You’re not really friends, you’re thrown together because you had babies at the same time”. I consider my mother’s group friends, and we all know lots about each other – we had to go around and intro ourselves and talk about stuff a few times in the formal groups at the baby health centre. Did no-one else’s group do that? I think it’s probably pretty well par for the course.
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I had a very informal, loose, mothers’ group at a local family centre (not hospital). Some of them are now treasured close friends – and they are people from completely different circles whom I simply would not have met were it not for that group.
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Ours were facilitated by our local baby health centre nurse for about 6 weeks I think. We had topics for each week, and now we have continued meeting ourselves weekly. We had about 10 I think at the first one, but there are only five of us who stay in touch and four who meet up (the other chick’s baby has some health issues, but they’re still in the loop). I’ve also linked up with other Mums through reading group at the library and playgroup, and everyone’s been pretty open about stuff.
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First it was all the crazy anti vaccine comments in the Immunisation article a couple of weeks ago…..now it’s people thinking it’s acceptable to breastfeed other peoples children…….the world has gone completely mad…….
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Yes, it has gone completely mad. Have you heard they are saying that the Earth is actually round, not flat?
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Bec, very few people are saying it was totally OK. Most of us were saying in context it was probably understandable if misguided. Please don’t compare that to the lunatic anti-vax ravings of that crowd.
Saying Hey, I don’t think it’s really that much to freak out about is vastly different to saying you’re going to risk lives by not protecting people with proven vaccinations. Vastly different.
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Anti-vaxers ignore science.
People that are not grossed out by the idea of wet-nursing or similar… what’s our problem?
Really, can you give some sensible reasons why healthy women should not share the bounty that is breast-milk?
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I am still confused how this turned into such a controversial bunch of comments! Really…isn’t it just an article discussing ‘Permission’…. Yep, I’d want someone to ask me first before feeding my baby! Why is it that any chance people get they attack each other…really sad! Can’t we have opinions anymore….???
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I think it’s the vilification of the breastfeeding mother without the full story and the way the article refers to the situation as disgusting and gross that people have a problem with…
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I think this is an overreaction too.
I have been in a situation looking after a newborn (friend’s) and my daughter, wondering if the baby was upset and perhaps wanted a feed what I should do. I was hoping that it didn’t have to come to that, cos while I think I would be comfortable with it, I wasn’t sure if they were, and I wasn’t sure if I *really* was. (it didn’t arise by the way. My daughter fell over and knocked her head not long after my friend left, I fed my daughter, who calmed down and my friend came back thinking it was her bub that had done all the crying).
If my daughter needed some boob action though (she loved the magic booby juice), I would be happy that someone bf her rather than let her cry it out waiting for me to return. Its not that much different from offering a bottle of formula is it? Breastmilk is (in my mind) better for a baby than formula, so its probably better! Would there have been a problem if it was expressed breastmilk?
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Frankly, this feels like extreme overreaction.
I’m basing this on my mothers’ group’s dynamics though.
We are fairly close knitted and we do adore each other’s babies.
I wouldn’t think twice about breastfeeding another girl’s baby *IF* there is an absolute need for it (though I can’t imagine being put in a situation that this will be required especially now that they are all on solids, I’d just give them a bickie instead)
I wouldn’t think twice about letting my baby be breastfed by one of them either.
I really don’t think it’s a big deal if you know the person relatively well. If you are practically strangers, then I guess the dynamics is different.
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I wish we didn’t live in a world where cross nursing was accepted. I’d be happy for a close friend or relative to have breastfed my child, and I would be happy to feed someone elses. I also wish we had milk banks. But oh well. We’ll continue to get grossed out by human breastmilk, but be perfectly fine with drinking milk from another animal….
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Yes, but the other animal’s milk has been pasteurised.
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did you know that it’s possible to heat-treat breast milk? Fascinating.
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How? All the guidelines about freezing and warming up expressed breast milk say not to microwave it because it kills the good bits.
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Do you mean unaccepted?
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There were were a couple of women in my mothers group who I wouldnt even want to hold my baby. Everyone has their own views on personal hygiene and I’m not an extreme germ phobe but their personal hygiene wasnt pleasant, to be blunt they were grubby. To think that one of those people could have stuck their nipple into my baby’s mouth makes me feel sick.
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Yes, but then you probably wouldn’t have got to the stage with them of meeting in a member’s home and leaving your baby while you went out to source sushi and apple slice.
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I did guess what was going to happen..pretty obvious from the picture and intro. Pretty horrifying all the same…who on earth thinks this is ok without the mum or dads consent?
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I’m gobsmacked by the level of disgust over cross nursing. Wow. I can’t help but wonder if this is a symptom of a society moving closer to “breasts are only for sex”.
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It’s not disgust for me, it’s respecting someone else’s right to what they want for their baby.
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Yes, I think it is. “another nipple in my baby’s mouth” it’s a nipple, deal with it….. We’ll accept a blood transfusion from a complete stranger, but not milk from a friend? Now I wouldn’t let a complete stranger breastfeed my child, but a close friend or relative, absolutely!!! I could do with the break!!! LOL
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I am a mum of 4, the youngest 6 months and i’ m still breastfeeding. I have had a different experience feeding each one so I can say every situation is different. But I would never, ever be ok with someone feeding my baby breast milk, formula or solids. While breastfeeding is not discusting, you never know what is in someone else’s milk, not just infection, but food intolerance. My first born and I had a hard time so he was on the bottle by 3 months and I didn’t even want anyone else giving him his bottle for awhile as I felt like I was a failure.
As for the picture not showing accurately a baby feeding, that’s rubbish. My bub latches on perfectly and doesn’t get wind and most of the time he’s hanging off the end of my nipple.
I’ve seen Em on 7pm often enough that as I read the article I could almost hear her saying it. At the end of the day it’s her opinion and difference of opinion helps make the world go round.
But that’s just my opinion!
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When I was in hospital with baby number 1 I expressed for her for 10 days as she was premmie and had no sucking reflex. Even though my milk was clearly labelled, with hospital supplied labels, a new father removed it from the fridge in error and he and his wife fed it to their baby. I found it odd that hospital procedure was that I then has to undergo a series of blood tests to eliminate the presence of AIDS and various other diseases so that they could be comfortable the baby was not contaminated.
I felt a bit sorry for them, feeding their baby with a strangers milk … They felt bad because they nicked my milk, the hospital decided to stop letting parents help them selves … A good thing … And luckily I’m a healthy non drug taking parent.
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That does sound a little dodgy. I’m a paediatric nurse and we keep our expressed breast milk in labelled bottles and then in biohazard bags. And only nurses can collect it from the fridge. I’d be a little annoyed if I were you that someone pinched my premmie’s milk!
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I agree with Em completely and would have had the same reaction. You CANNOT just breastfeed someone else’s child without their permission!
Breastmilk is a bodily fluid. It’s not some mystical creation.
Sure, it gives sustenance but it can also transfer any number of things into the system of the baby including alcohol, drugs, disease, viruses and food.
What if the mother had just had a coffee? Or been drunk the night before? What if she’d had chilli? Or was on some kind of medication?
It’s a decision for the mother alone to make. The baby wasn’t starving. The mother wasn’t incapacitated. The other mother had no right to do what she did.
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Can I also point out that in, in another post today, Mia herself is (understandably) unhappy with a quote of hers being taken out of context to promote a book about Tony Abbott. Yes she said that quote, but, unless you knew the full story (ie you read the post from which it came) you would have no idea why Mia said it. I don’t think I’m drawing a long bow when I say that the similarities between these stories – the public not knowing the context of Mia’s quote, and MM readers (and indeed Em herself) not knowing the context in which Mother #3 did what she did – were not lost on me, and I just find it all a little strange.
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This.
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I was just about to write something along those lines in response to that post….
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I commented yesterday that I strongly suspect this story simply isn’t true, or perhaps its highly embellished. I have no problem with that per se. It’s a perfectly reasonable thing to do if you think you’re writing a light, entertaining, non-controversial piece. But given the discussion has gone the way it has, I think this would be a really good point to clarify the veracity or otherwise of the story.
A lot of the angst and outrage hinges on details that are not available. How well did they know each other? Was the baby actually hungry? Was mother 3 from a different culture? Was she a drug user? That kind of thing. People are able to jump to the full set of worst possible conclusions. Its almost a straw man (or straw breast) argument. Again, that wouldn’t matter if it wasn’t an important issue. But I, for one, feel really sad about what this discussion says about attitudes to breastfeeding. This kind of debate really needs a whole different setting.
On the other hand, if this story is true, then I share the concerns others have expressed about the possibility that the real people involved might read this and/or be identified by others who have.
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I agree that the premise of the story seems a bit odd…two women leaving a third to look after three babies…? All of whom were ready for their naps…?!? Stranger things have happened but it seems like a strange scenario to begin with!
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Hi Bowerbird,
We have no reason to believe this story isn’t true. In fact the number of comments that have described experiencing or hearing about a similar thing suggests it happens not infrequently.
As for the identity of those concerned, there is no need for witness protection here. We’re not talking about a crime.
And we felt confident enough – as did Em – that no identifying details were given.
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Well, I wasn’t talking about witness protection. Just the fact that there is some material here (in the post and the comments) that would be pretty awful to read about yourself or have relayed to you.
No identifying details? Um, do you mean apart from Em identifying her sister-in-law’s mother’s group? I don’t know who Em’s SIL is, but I’m guessing many people do.
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And actually, it was that very identifying comment that made me think (wrongly, it seems) this was all so hard to believe. Surely MM wouldn’t have allowed such discussion about real people?
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I actually agree with a couple of posters that publishing it is a form of bullying.
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+1
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Agree. And it’s frustrating/strange that mamamia staff can’t acknowledge that.
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I agree with C. Shows a complete lack of empathy and/or insight from some of the Mamamia staff, including Mia who describes herself as struggling to see why this post is eliciting the reactions that it is.
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Why?
All the people to whom it happened- know it happened.
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Because instead of just discussing it and getting over it amongst themselves, it has now been aired on this blog and I’m assuming Em’s own. Mia’s site is read pretty far and wide, if we go by stats for websites, and this has now reached five pages of comments of people condemning someone without knowing what her motivation was and the circumstances surrounding what happened.
The way the article is written is “ZOMG You totally won’t believe what this heinous, crazeeee bitch did to my SIL’s friend! Join me in freaking the fuck out about it, won’t you?”.
It’s hardly anonymous, and it may surprise you how easy it is to (a) link up with other readers of MM and (b) Identify who they are – I’ve done it twice in other places. It’s really quite easy.
Em isn’t a shrinking little violet, and I don’t think it’d be too hard for people who know her SIL or even members of her mother’s group to join the dots.
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‘ “ZOMG You totally won’t believe what this heinous, crazeeee bitch did to my SIL’s friend! Join me in freaking the fuck out about it, won’t you?”.’
Classic. Love it.
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Best Response By Far, Kris!!
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I actually came back to this article for these reasons! I was hoping Em might have come back to the comments to clarify the things you mentioned above. The more I thought about this whole thing, the more I thought how bizarre the article was – and how bizarre that it is here on Mamamia and therefore, to me, giving Em’s over the top and judgmental reaction credence. I would love to know the full story now (and in fact made a semi appeal to ‘Mother #3′ to come forward in a previous comment I made yesterday). Anyway, looks like it ain’t gonna happen….
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I agree completely with you Bowerbird. I have a sense that I have heard this exact story before, and it has been sensationalised and embellished to suit. I spent a considerable time googling it last night and didn’t find anything but still can’t shake that feeling…..
I do actually think it is bullying. The topic itself could be quite interesting to debate and discuss, however the tone of language used is insulting, inflammatory, and I feel, hypocritical to the general tone of the MM site which I feel is generally empowering and supportive of women. Just my opinion.
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This actually happened to me. But I was only gone for a maximum of 15 minutes and I also had my expressed breast milk available to use. She knew I was at a shop only a couple hundred meters away (She gave me directions to where it was!). When I got home the woman who breastfed my child without my consent said “the baby woke, so I fed him” and it would have taken TOO long to heat up my expressed milk! I didn’t say anything to her at the time because I was grateful that she and another woman looked after my newborn for an hour earlier on that same day, but a couple of months later I gently mentioned that I was a bit hurt that she didn’t ask for my opinion via a phone call. She wrote me an abusive letter calling me names and telling me that “If I didn’t want another woman breastfeeding my child I should have said so beforehand” and “if she had the chance, she would do it again”!!
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gosh that’s sounds very abusive, she sounds like a nut, i’m sorry you had to go through that
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I appreciate the support ‘likers’. Thank you.
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RUDE!!!
She would do it again??
Who the hell does this woman think she is?? Your the childs MOTHER!!!!!
My mother in law feed my firstborn his first foods when he was 4 and a half months when I wasn’t there. I felt/feel so betrayed and like I had missed out. This should’ve been MY choice.
I agree with the mother in the story – I would’ve lost my shit too!
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Sounds a little “Hand That Rocks the Cradle” if you ask me….
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I agree with Amanda at 1.09 am.
The article’s tone was began the debate as nothing more than a coffee morning bitch-fest about the poor Mother 3, who is being publicly shamed. I also stand by the criticism of the writing in the context of this. The whole thing did not begin as a thoughtful piece about the topic of breastfeeding another’s child, but rather a coffee morning anecdote.
And Mia, the impassioned response is only imagined because this is what you hoped for. The majority of the replies were actually not hysterical or ‘impassioned’ about the actual topic (breastfeeding another’s child) but rather condeming of the tone of the article, its lack of rigour re the topic and the vilification of Mother 3. The tone of the article itself broke the dinner party rules in the first instance – not cool. Only a small percentage of the replies were ‘Eeeeewwwwing’ and ‘OMG-ing’.
It’s the reader responses that make this website and for you to sift through and delete what you don’t like is a censorship that unbalances the overall response. I didn’t see anyone using abusive language toward the writer. Just saying they didn’t think the article was well written should be well within what is allowed.
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Agree agree agree! Can’t press the like button enough!
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I absolutely agree. Don’t the “dinner party” rules apply to all? The tone of this article, the public shaming of mother 3 really are a disgrace. Here’s a test of how appropriate it is … answer this question “How would you like it if this article was written about you, about your actions and you were not given the chance to defend yourself?” When did this website become about public vilification? And I don’t think Mia’s responses of “impassioned debate” and “isn’t human nature fascinating?” serve as very good justifications. As I said below, if this story is in fact about real people that the writer or her family know (and not an urban myth), I wouldn’t be surprised to hear someday down the track that mother 3 either took legal action about this post or was so hurt and shamed that she was damaged forever.
Really, I cannot get over how nasty this article is and how Mamamia staff justify publishing it. How many posts have been on this website about how wrong it is to judge other women without knowing the full story, without walking a mile in their shoes etc etc. And fine, disagree with her actions and the boundaries she might have crossed. But why write about it in this peurile way?
Really … for shame!
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And of course I agree with you ‘squared’. When you say, ‘And I don’t think Mia’s responses of “impassioned debate” and “isn’t human nature fascinating?” serve as very good justifications,’ my previous point goes further in that they are not really even justifications because the responses weren’t impassioned about the topic, just the dreadful article and attitude of the women.
Mia’s response sounded like it was churned out by a computer and did not relate to the responses here in the least.
You know that eeeeveryone is a wriiiiita these days don’t you, just as eeeeeveryone is a styyyyyylist or a consultant.
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Hi MotherR,
The comments that were deleted were personally abusive to the writer and we don’t tolerate that under any circumstances. On any post.
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No, that is fair enough. I may not have seen the late night additions. I suppose it depends on where on the sliding scale it stops being a negative opinion and becomes classed as abuse.
But as for (to Bowerbird): “there is no need for witness protection here. We’re not talking about a crime.” No one said anything about supression of identity because it might be a crime but more because there is (or maybe not) a poor woman and mother out there who already got ostracised by her mothers’ group when her baby was little – not a nice start – and now she is being publicly lashed.
And as for: “no identifying details were given.” Isn’t it the “writer’s” SiL’s mothers’ group – not a stretch to make those connections. Unless of course if the whole thing is made up, or the SiL connection was a clever red herring.
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So, you don’t allow comments that are personally abusive to your writers, yet you allow articles that are personally abusive to other people?
Shame.
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What about ‘the writer’ being personally abusive to Mother 3?
You seem to have no problems with that.
The poor woman (no 3), I feel so sorry for her.
Expected better from you.