When did it become okay to beat up on kids and parents?
by LEE SANDWITH
Before I became a mother I felt compelled to somehow disassociate myself from any involvement of being like other mothers – or those mothers, as some of my friends referred to them.
“Lee, if you become one of those mums who starts a ‘mummy blog’ that goes on and on about being a mum or uses every form of social media to share stories about their kid’s poo I will never speak to you again!” one childless friend threatened me, apparently teasingly.
“And don’t even think about becoming one of those mothers who parks their pram in the middle of cafes either,” stressed another kid free wanderer.
“Oh I won’t!” I assured them confidently as though the worst thing I could become was an actual mother.
This idea of motherhood and children being viewed as annoying was driven home early on when, at dinner with friends a few months before our baby was born, one of our dining companions asked if we could talk about something else as he grew tired of all the talk about babies. I was beginning to feel guilty about being a mother before I had actually had a child!
The truth is that I didn’t truly comprehend the realities of life as a mother until I was actually drowning in the day to day drudgery of life with a newborn. I felt ashamed to speak out about my experiences as a new mother because I had actively participated in the collective scorn the childless sometimes direct towards the breeding masses. This former contempt I held was something I deeply regretted as I had accidently become one of those mothers; the ones that pushed their pram into cafes with a screeching being tucked up inside it and posted photos of their baby on the internet.
The negative sentiment towards mothers and children was something that I was experiencing not only in my local coffee shop but on public transport as well. A recent family outing on a train drew glares of disgust from fellow passengers as my baby daughter let out various squeals and cries as life whizzed by outside of the train window. It seems that the transport experience for many people is so incredibly marred by the presence of small humans that Malaysian Airlines have put a ban on babies in their first class cabins. Even Ryanair were considering offering childfree flights due to an increased number of passenger complaints about the noise of babies.
Don’t want to look at any more babies? Unbaby.me brings you seals instead!
With a growing trend of people who are child-free by choice, there seems to be more opportunities to openly rail against parents and children.
My Facebook feed is often clogged with people protesting that the sight and sound of children in public places irritates them, or how if they have to suffer the torture of viewing yet another image of a child on their feed they will surely commit homicidal murder.
It seems that it isn’t just some of my own intolerant Zuckerbook friends who find the sight of infants on their computer screens a pest. A new Chrome extension called Unbaby.me will remedy the problem of hideous images of small people appearing on your Facebook feed and replace them with images of bacon, cats or “awesome stuff” as Unbaby.me promotes. “Now you won’t have to look at your friends’ annoying kids anymore”, we’re told.
Even mothers who enjoy talking about their children and their parental experiences are not being taken seriously. When women do become mothers, they learn very early on that discussing their experience publicly may lead to at best a sort of dismissive scoffing, and at worst an all round assault on their intelligence and ability to contribute positively to society. ‘Mummy blogs’ in particular have become universally detested, even though some of their content is relatively innocuous. Hating parents and children on the internet, and mothers who blog in particular it seems, is encouraged.
Entire websites such as The Bratfree and We Kid You Not! are dedicated to the bashing of parents and children. Here, it is not uncommon to read offensive terms such as “breeders”, “moomie” (an insult directed at mothers who breast feeds in public and are likened to cows), “semen demon” or “crotch fruit” being bandied about by the child-free folk. Disguised as humour or satire, it appears that it is now permissible in many instances to bully mums and kids.
Lee
With this disapproval of mothers and the belittlement of family life proliferating, are mothers really expected to keep a division between families and the supposed real world just so they don’t offend the child-frees? And more importantly are we really a generation of people that is so adult-centric that we believe a child should not be heard or seen or even spoken about?
What is even more questionable is why such bigotry towards children exists in the first place. Children, our most vulnerable members of society, are fair game when it comes to some adults being openly intolerant towards them.
The contribution of children in society is not valued for many reasons but mostly because they do not have the capacity to act in the same way as adults do. This form of discrimination of children perpetuates the belief that adults are better then children, that adult-rights are more important then child-rights and child behaviors are bad or wrong. However if you interchange the word child with any other minority group and refer to them as “demon semen”, I am certain that your description of this group would not only be frowned upon but would screamed down as being grossly prejudice.
And while not all child-free individuals hate mothers and children, those that are critical of parents and kids may be acting in defense of their own choices by openly attacking the very thing that they are trying to distance themselves from. Whether it is due to social pressure or societal norms, many child-free individuals often have to defend their choices for opting out of parenthood, and in doing so fail to recognise that their criticisms of families with children are deeply offensive.
The fact of the matter is that unless the exclusion and discrimination of mothers and children ceases, it will only continue to further the divide between families with children and child-free people. The aggressive commentary and derision of parents’ and childrens’ rights are harmful and don’t serve any value except to socially exclude.
Remaining child-free or becoming a parent are both choices which deserve respect. And with that respect should be gratitude that we live in a society where both options are completely reasonable and that we all have the right to live these choices without persecution.
Lee Sandwith is a Melbourne based photographer, actress and director. She is also mother to 11-month-old daughter Sailor and 7-year-old Roy Orbison (feline) and spends most of her days separating the two. Find her website here.
Do you think there is a disapproval of mothers and family life? Have you ever experienced the sort of stigma that Lee describes?
Comments
159 Comments so far
I’ve been the object of more than a couple of glares and heavy sighs when my son is making noise or being a nuisance in a store or restaurant. Yes, it makes me feel bad. I do what I can to quiet or corral my child and get out of the situation as quick as I can. Sometimes (like on a crowded plane) there is not much I can do.
It feels unfair because those people are passing judgment without fully understanding the challenges of going places with little kids. But are they bigots? No. Are they guilty of discriminatory practices? No.
The thing about people getting annoyed and giving you dirty looks is that you can safely ignore them if you want, and nothing bad will happen to you. The noise of babies is not a crime – but neither is a disdainful attitude.
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I think a lot of people are critical of the behaviour of some children and their parents who allow it, because more recently there seems to be a lack of respect. I was at the hairdresser today. And yes, its school holidays. I always time my regular haircut and colour during the school holidays and book a babysitter because I know I will be needing 2 hours of peace and quiet and a lovely coffee. Just to recharge my batteries and get through until school returns. So today, another woman turned up for her appointment with her 3 children in tow. Aged from about 3 to about 8 or 9. And she sat on her bum and had her coffee and read her magazines while her younger 2 ran riot around the salon. She didnt once try and stop them. While I was having my massage at the basin her younger child jumped on the chair next to me. I understand the staff were in a difficult position because this woman would have been spending $200 or so and they need her business. If they told her kids off she would likely get the shits because she clearly didnt see a problem with their behaviour. My hairdresser apologised to me several times and I told her not to worry but she knew I wasnt happy. Its a tricky one and a problem that the mother was the only one who had the solution to solve. She should have either pulled her kids into line, cancelled her appointment or kept them at home knowing that they were incapable of behaving appropriately. But she didnt have enough respect for the staff or the other people there to do any of them.
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But see, I don’t see what the problem is with you saying to the children, ‘could you please not run around the salon, it’s disrespectful to the people who work here and the paying customers?’ If it’s a value you have that the mother doesn’t share, then you at least have the right to ask instead of silently hating on the mother and then taking to the internet to make a generalist comment about “all” or “most” or “some” mothers. Every time I read a comment like this I replace “mother” with “ethnic minority” or “kids” with “people with disabilities” and to me the discrimination becomes far more apparent.
It takes a village doesn’t just mean showing up with a lasagne after the birth.
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Absolutely! As the mother of an excitable, physical Miss 3 who has perfectly sufficient verbal ability… if someone else said something like that to her, she would understand it, and it would all add up to giving her an understanding that such things are universals – everyone thinks like that, not just mum. And I’ve noticed she’s far more likely to obey something once it’s been brought home to her that it’s a ‘universal’. And obviously, I can’t do that, because whatever I say, that’s just mum. But if aunties, cousins, playgroup facilitators or shop staff say it, that takes it to another level. I know she’s a lot more polite about cakes in the bakery ever since the woman in the bakery said to her, “I think you’re being a bit rude to mummy!” She said it kindly but firmly, and the message stuck. That’s all it takes, sometimes.
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Helen – I have a Babylove stroller that reclines the whole way back and it’s small. It cost $100. It’s awesome, but not good for going long distances and does not have a big basket. Is very handy though!
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I can’t reply directly to a comment down below about dropping friends because as parents they turn up late, so I’ll do it here. That’s an upsetting and infuriating comment. Babies, especially those under 12 months are hard to schedule, they don’t work like clockwork and heaven forbid they might not fit into your precious routine. So yeah, sometimes as mums we’re late. There’s the feeding, the vomit or poosplosion as you’re walking out the door. The bucketloads of stuff and the getting in and out of cars to contend with. So if you’re dumping someone as a friend because they’re coming to meet you and are late due to having a small child, then you are a poor excuse for a friend and I wouldn’t want you in my life anyway.
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I must admit my relatives were the most inflexible regarding our kids sleeptimes and routines when they were babies. Our friends, even those who dont like children, were fabulous and simply got it. My inlaws though, not at all. They thought we were crazy for not staying after dinner til late at night because our kids had to go to bed or not arriving on time for lunch because our kids had a late morning nap. They just didnt get that we kept to our routine and our kids were happy and settled because of it. My SILs kids on the other hand, did everything just perfectly in their eyes. Her kids had no routine and would often stay up til very late at night to accomodate their parents social arrangements, and were as a result wild and often screaming over tired monsters.
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You cherry picked out one sentence and missed the part about how they also DID NOT CARE. The world had to revolve around them. Sorry, but a relationship is a two way street. I doubt you are someone who I would want in my life, so the feeling is mutual.
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I can’t believe all the people below having a competition on how tired they are. If they were representative of all mums, what a petty ridiculous bunch they are. Thankfully, I know some women who were amazing before they had children, and are still amazing – because they remember that they are people, just like everyone else. A mum is not more special or important than any other person.
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What an empty world we’d have without children. Literally!
Grow up knockers.
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Ok so all I have do is buy a smaller pram – not for the baby but for the childless people- force my baby to cry no matter what even thou its the only way babies can communicate-again for the childless people because I wouldn’t want their latte time disturbed- and I won’t even go to cafes until my baby is old enough to pay for herself because I wouldn’t want the more important childless people in society to have to be considerate.
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Carmen, bring your giant pram to mine, (we can compare giant prams) and I’ll make you a coffee with my brilliant Aldi coffee machine which I bought because the childless people said I’m not allowed in cafes anymore and we’ll allow our babies to scream in unison.
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It is a bit funny when adults are intolerant of children because EVERYONE was a child once and I am sure they were not immaculately behaved. And those adults who expect children as young as 18 months to have perfectly impeccable manners wind me up big time. I haven’t come across too many adults who are perfectly well-mannered at all times, yet very young children are expected to be little pillars of decorum or all the dirty looks come out.
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Firstly, teach your kids how to behave in public, and to be polite. And dont be afraid to give minor discipline in public if its needed.
It’s not just mums and prams that get in the way, there are plenty of other rude people out there.
mommy bloggers are a pain. I am a mum and a blogger but no way would I say it in those terms. There is so much more to me than that. And writing about the ‘centre of your universe’ as though you are the only one and trying to make it humourous just doesn’t work for me. And I find it condescending to put yourself in a box like that.
My biggest gripe is those without kids that choose to tell you how to raise yours. Just as I wouldn’t tell a tradie how to do their job, i dont appreciate you telling me how to do mine.
Ad yes, while my 3 boys are generally well adjusted, polite young men they can be horrid and unruly in public, but I am honest enough to admit it.
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In which case, I don’t think you’re the kind of parent people are complaining about.
I certainly don’t expect perfection and silence from children. We all have crap days and god knows I feel like throwing myself down and chucking a tanty from time to time.
It’s those who smile indulgently or just generally don’t give a stuff that their children have no consideration for others who I have a problem with. If your baby is crying or if your toddler is having a tantrum and I can see you’re trying to address it, you’ll get no judgment from me at all. I might try to help if I can. But if they’re older and they’re bumping into waiters, whingeing, being rude to people, breaking things, jumping on things and you’re not doing anything about it? Yeah. That grates. Your kid’s right to self-expression does not trump everyone else.
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Great article. You’ve painted a disturbing picture of society which I find to be increasingly true. When you think about it, a hatred or intolerance of small children and the people who care for them is the sign of a pretty sad and ugly soul.
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I will be more respectful to those with children, when I stop getting called “selfish” for not having children.
Of course I get called this without the name callers bothering to ask if it’s by choice or circumstance, it’s the latter.
But hey, if they don’t or can’t be bothered to show me respect, why should I do so in return? It’s a two way street. The vibes, words and opinions you put out, usually get bounced right back to you.
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I think it is ridiculous when people think others are “selfish” for not having children. I honestly don’t get it.
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As a mum of 7 beatiful children it is hard not to come in contact with people who are critical of mums and family life. However, I can make the choice as an adult not to take any notice of these negative people and bring my children up to respect other peoples decisions. I also work full time so of course I am going to talk to my work friends/collegues at some time about my children, usually these are people that I know are interested and if there are ones that aren’t well then thats just bad luck isn’t it?
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Question. I’m a child free twenty something woman. But I really do want to be “child friendly”. Other than smiling creepily at babies in prams and commenting to parents how cute the kid is (desperately trying not to use gender-specific pronouns for fear of getting it wrong), what can I do to be more baby & parent friendly in public spaces?
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You need to read the manual “4908760 things NOT to say to a mother”
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Well, one thing that I always think of, and is *still* counter-intuitive to me… try to *never* watch a child’s tantrum – *especially* if it’s highly demonstrative. Tantrums are shows put on for audiences. My then-2yo would stop a tantrum within 10 seconds if I simply left the room. I know this – and yet I *still* have to work to avert my eyes in public when it’s someone else’s kid. But really, depriving the child of an audience is the best way to give everyone’s ears a break (child, mum, you and the rest of the cafe / shop / supermarket, / shopping centre) as quickly as possible. Mum’s usually on the case (even/especially if she’s closely examining biscuit packets half an aisle away), so leave it to her.
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I used to hate people telling me I’d understand once I had one. They were right. I don’t believe you have any idea how hard it is, how rewarding it is and how much you love them and you just want to share that. Mother’s Group good for this but if my childless friends have no time for my bub then I guess they’re not really friends. We are a package deal I’m afraid. Also I’m sorry if you don’t like my baby photos on FB, I don’t particularly care for pics of your food or statuses about your hardcore workout but I put up with it cause everyone is different in terms of what’s going on in their lives. Unsubscribe….
As for the strollers, well yeah, mine’s big too but I am considerate with it. Shits me to tears though when people stand in the footpath talking and whaddya know..most of the time they don’t have strollers or kids! Shock horror! People without kids rude?? Whoda thunk it??
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Oh yeah the endless pics of food on facebook–what’s with that? Who gives a hoot what people are eating?
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“People without kids rude?? Whoda thunk it??”
People without kids are less likely than parents to be child-abusers. Fact.
(Aimed at those who like to stereotype childless/free people as monsters.)
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People keep mentioning ‘mummybloggers’ who talk about poo. This confuses me, as I’ve yet to see one mummy blogger do this
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Go and read the blog of heather armstrong called Dooce. She LOVES a good poo talk and is also ridiculously funny and honest.
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It’s annoying when you can’t get past people standing in the middle of a shopping aisle to “catch up”, right? Same goes for strollers in cafes. They are typically small spaces; throw in a stroller and it’s nearly impossible to navigate without spilling hot coffee on someone’s baby. This is coming from a mother of three, two of which are twins. I have a giant stroller that I leave outside when I go for a coffee.
I also expect my children to behave as any adult would be expected to at any locale. The park; run around and scream your head off. The grocery store; sit quietly while I shop. If they can’t, we leave. When will they learn if you don’t teach them from the very beginning?
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I’m not sure why some of what bothers you…bothers you. You come off as a bit too sensitive. If you don’t like “child bashing” websites, simply do not go to them.
As my sarcastic log in name implies, I work for the government. Lots of folks hate government workers, especially in this bad economy when private sector is losing so many jobs, (public sector is too, but I digress….) I am openly criticized by some members of society, and there are topics and blogs about how we employees don’t deserve our jobs, don’t deserve our level of pay, are stupid, worthless, etc. I could go to those sites and get all offended, I could take what people say to me personally, but I don’t. They are entitled to their opinions.
As far as dirty looks are concerned, the best thing you might remember is you don’t get to control someone else’s feelings or thoughts. As a dirty look is in no way abusive or harmful, it needn’t matter to you the expression on some complete stranger’s face. Perhaps that stranger is having an exceptionally hard time in his or her life.
Many parents do fail at parenting, many are rude, many are annoying -they are like anyone else. Maybe people in this day and age feel more free to express things they have always thought. I’m willing to bet that 99.9 of the time, the folks “beating up” children and parents are only annoyed with the ineffectual or irritating parent.
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“the folks ‘beating up’ children and parents are only annoyed with the ineffectual or irritating parent.”
Well said.
If dirty looks, snide remarks and apps like “unbaby me” bother the author, she can be assured that, statistically, that is the worse thing her children will probably ever experience from those awful nasty childfree monsters.
The truth is that when it comes to real “beating up” rather than the confected metaphorical variety, a child is more likely to be neglected or starved, mentally, physically, sexually abused or even murdered by its own parents. Not saying that all parents abuse their children but the stats show that when it comes to real harm that damages children, the inconvenient truth is that it is meted out by parents not childfree people.
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Children are not the most vulnerable members of society, nor are mothers the most oppressed. Try being transgender for a week, see how much fun that is.
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Transgender may not be fun, but at the very least they can, I assume, get themselves fed, bathed, and to the bathroom for their toilet requirements!
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And that is what’s known as missing the point!
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Er, no, that is what is known as questioning the comparison used when making the point.
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Ok sorry but enough with the pram blocking comments! I can’t believe how many people have commented about prams ‘blocking’ the path in a cafe or a food court! Seriously, it’s not that hard to walk around a pram. I’m not saying mothers with prams have right of way, but if you’re a considerate person, you will understand that it’s much easier for you to simply walk around it than it is for a parent to try and maneuver a pram around an awkward, crowded space. And I don’t think I should have to apologise for using my pram and not carrying my 13kg toddler around a shopping centre. I always try and sit out of the way but that’s not always possible. Plus, I think there are plenty of other people without prams who do a great job of blocking paths also!
I know I sound narky, but I think a lot of these comments are a sad reflection on how intolerant how society is and how common courtesy is lacking. So come on people, it’s not that hard for you to take a few extra steps to walk around a pram!
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How about people who get off the escalators and then stop. Bang smack right at the bottom to chat or think about where they’re going…or wander across along at the bottom of the escalators so the people getting off cant get off because people are walking there and using the bottom of the escalators as a walkway. And then they get cranky with you if you happen to get in THEIR way!
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Oh yeah! ‘How about I just trip over you, or knock you over because you’re stupid enough to stand in front of an escalator?’
People who stand right in front of lift or even train doors p*#s me off too. For the love of God, move to the side of the doors, unless you enjoy people almost knocking you over on their way out.
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I totally agree. I can’t believe how mean-spritied and petty this is. What am I supposed to do when my baby is asleep in a pram? Leave her outside? Never go to a cafe? This post seems a poor refection on a lot of mamamia readers. I’m really appalled by some of the comments. I guess that must make me one of those mums though. Like I give a toss what anyone who gets worked up about a pram in a cafe thinks. For goodness sake.
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Took 7 kids (yes, 7) to the movies today to watch Diary of a Wimpy Kid (by myself – I was the only adult). Two were mine, two were nieces, three were my son’s friends (all girls aged 10).
Ages ranged from 7 – 13…… all perfectly well-behaved before, during and after the movie. Even took all 7 to the shops (we were in a Westfield) for an hour afterwards. All angelic and knew how to act in public. Took all 7 home for lunch and the car ride was smooth and incident-free. Even when the phone rang, they all stopped talking so I could take the call in silence. Nice.
However, at the cinema in the row in front of us there were 4 boys (with 3 mums who did nothing) that talked throughout the entire movie and threw popcorn all over the place. On our left were 3 tween girls who giggled and also talked throughout. Just bad manners – rude and inconsiderate! Ruined the movie experience for the kids doing the right thing.
The only strange looks we got on our outing though were from shopkeepers because we were such a large group. Did they think we were a gang of shoplifters?
The kids were respectful of the goods and spent their own money. It’s school holidays – do they expect kids to stay at home everyday? They are consumers too!
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Agreed.
What is it about some parents who completely ignore their childrens anti social behaviour in movies or restaurants???? I’m sure we can all make a mistake and not notice when one of our kids is misbehaving in public (usually because we’re preccupied with one of our other kids) but when its right under their nose and they completely ignore it or think its acceptable? Thats what makes many people really against having to share public spaces with families. Because for every family who tries hard to teach their kids the right way to behave and to respect the peace and quiet of others around them, there will be another family who arrogantly declares their kids have as much right to be there as anyone else does and make absolutely no effort to control them. Brings to mind my brother in law, who wont go to weddings or functions if his children arent invited because he is offended that they arent the centre of everyone elses universe too. Yet when they do go he lets them run wild and they disrupt everyone else around them.
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I am allergic. To everything so that way all of my bases are covered.
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Some people might forget that they were once children too. And their parents probably talked a lot about them when they were young. I’ve only recently had a baby, prior to that I had a successful career in my own business, a busy social life, studied part time and had earned a black belt in kung-fu. I had plenty of things to talk about other than the colour and consistency of poo. Like Lee I vowed never to be one of “those” parents, however soon learned that when you’re caring for another being 24/7 the things that seem insignificant or boring to others are a big deal to you because, well quite simply there isn’t much else going on in your life at this time… Besides that we’re kind of hard wired to think our babies are the centre of the universe, it’s a survival of the species mechanism. Oh, and for those complaining about the size of prams, please do let me know if you ever see a smaller one you can push an infant around in, I’d love one too because mine barely fits in my car boot. They just don’t seem to make them small anymore.
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Here ya go. They’re called umbrella strollers & fold up pretty easily.
http://www.amazon.com/Disney-Umbrella-Stroller-Princess-Reflection/dp/B0055LVY9A/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1348610660&sr=8-7&keywords=umbrella+stroller
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Not all umbrella strollers recline back. A lot have a fixed, fairly upright seat and are therefore inappropriate for a small baby. Good for older babies and toddlers though and I think a lot of parents go for them once their kids are bigger. I know I did.
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I’ve got an umbrella stroller ($25ish from Big W) which is fantastic for public transport – it fits in one seat width on the bus or train. For longer times out, or if KDot will probably sleep, I take the Ultimate Behemoth that we inherited. I think it’s huge, but compared to some it’s like a little hatchback.
Also I take K to day care in it, and it folds up to nothing so it’s not in the way to leave it there.
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Google “Combi” pram or stroller. They’re tiny but ultra cushy for the baby.
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steel craft holiday stroller! reclines! groovy red! cheap!
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Thanks all for the suggestions, I’m glad to hear they’re out there and look forward to not getting in other people’s way!
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I’m sure I was far less tolerant towards kids till I had some and truly understood how erratic their behaviour can be in certain situations.
Now I love it when I can hear other babies crying or kids throwing a tantrum, just so glad it’s not mine for once!!
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So true! Sad but one of my favourite things to do now that I am a mother is to do the grocery shopping child-free. Seriously bliss. And when a kid has a tantrum it only makes that moment that little bit sweeter as for once it isn’t mine!
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I have read the comments below and most of the anti baby brigade seem to be worried solely about their cafe time being ruined by children. I just have to ask – do you own these cafes? Do you have shares in them? No -didn’t think so. Then why’d you get to claim the cafe as a child free haven? The mothers with bubs have the same right to be there as you do. If you don’t like the mothers groups then go somewhere else. Why are the mothers the ones that have to leave? And btw seriously if a cafe full of children is your biggest worry then get over it.
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It’s the parents who let their children be unruly that the childless/childfree take issue with. I recently went to a cafe with a friend and there was a small child (about 3 or 4) running around, being loud and climbing on the tables and seats. The mother did nothing, despite that her child was causing a disturbance. When the child fell and injured himself (hit his head on the floor), nobody except the mother, not even other parents, moved to check on him because we were all annoyed with his behavior. The owner called an ambulance, but everyone else minded their business.
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Once two tot sized kids were on the walking track of a gym I used to frequent, despite the big sign that said no one under age 14 was allowed on the track. In addition to that, they were running across diagonally, and cutting off the walkers and joggers, kicking one of the balance balls that is put off in the carpeted area for people to cool down after running. Not cute, the mother was doing nothing about it, all the runners/walkers were annoyed but dared not say a thing to the mother. And at some point one of the kids tripped and landed not so gracefully on his face and wound up with blood gushing. No one stopped to assist, they just walked around the kid’s body while he laid there screeching. Yes, many people are fed up not with kids themselves, but kids that have not been taught to behave properly in public and are undisciplined. The consequence of this is no one is going to step in to help with an injury, because had they said something pre-injury, the Grizzly Parent would have bitten their proverbial head off.
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Not that I generally laugh at kids hurting themselves, but is anyone else reminded of Stillwell Angel being hit with the baseball mitt? Hehehehe.
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I don’t think it’s a childless/childfree V those with kids thing. It’s a rude people with no respect for others V everyone else thing. Most of my friends with kids also have zero tolerance for kids running round like lunatics and not being pulled into line and have no problem pulling them up on it, because we do the same with our kids and don’t mind if others do the same if our guys get a bit unruly or do something wrong. We’re all a bit older and well able to cop that our kids may not always be little angels though. Also we don’t take them places that they are likely to get bored and want to run around causing havoc.
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That attitude is why you might be the recipient of some ‘looks’ yourself. Try being considerate and not just expect everyone to get over it. I myself have no issue with a cafe full of children unless they’re being noisy and disruptive and there’s no parental intervention. that’s fair enough isn’t it?!
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Nobody is bothered by children in cafes. Children in cafes do become a complete pain when their parents allow them to treat the cafe like its their personal playground. Its not appropriate to allow your kids to run around or scream and carry on and it will really annoy people. When one of my kids scream in a cafe and I cant make them stop immediately, we leave. Its quite a simple solution. So, if you find yourself in a cafe with your kids and you’re on the receiving end of the evil eye, chances are your kids arent the little angels you think they are and their behaviour is disturbing the experience of the other people there. Not to mention the staff.
We have a great local cafe but a lot of parents we know say the owner and staff are anti children. I’ve seen how some of their kids have behaved in there so I can fully appreciate why they’re not happy about their arrival. They sit on one coffee for an hour while their kids eat and drink their BYO food and run around screaming and smearing banana on the windows and scare other paying customers away…
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Ugh. They sound hideous.
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I’m childless – not by choice – a number of factors with both hubby and me. Yet apparently that’s not good enough for some “why don’t you just adopt?” Is the most common question, along with “just do IVF”. So I do get a little sensitive about the judgement thing from people with kids – not my beautiful friends with kids who call me “aunty” and have their own “kids room” set up in our house (tv, playstation, DVD player, old iPhone with games) along with their fave snacks (aunty, did you buy ice blocks this week”; “of course, I’ve got a red one saved for you especially!”. But people you just meet who feel they have the right to just ask those kinds of questions: “do you have kids? When are you having them? Oh, why aren’t you? Oh, why don’t you try IVF? Oh, why don’t you adopt? (And on one very awkward incident), well, are you really ok with living such a pointless and selfish life?”. Again – I’d just met the guy!
I’ve got friends with kids, this is increasing – for a long time it was just one set of parents, now two, and another trying. And I love that. I love being in their kids lives. I buy them the books I think they “have” to read (I’m an English teacher!”, I stick their drawings on my fridge, I talk about their achievements with their parents. On the other hand, I’m the person my girlfriend calls for non-kiddie talk – did you read the trashy mags, see that show, talk to this person, what’s happening in politics?
Flights – I had more of an issue with the obnoxious teenager who immediately reclined his seat at the start of a flight then leaned forward the entire time rather than the kid noise I could block out with noise cancelling headphones!
Misbehaving in shops – as long as I see parents acknowledge the bad behaviour I’m fine. It’s if it’s ignored I’m annoyed, and that’s with the parents, because they are old enough to know better. Children are constantly learning, and if their parents don’t teach them that they are doing the wrong thing, then they think what they are doing is fine. THAT is a problem!
So – talk to me about your kids. Ask me about work, my hubby, my cat, and I’ll ask you about your family and whatever else you’ve got happening. But pretty please, don’t ask me why I’m not having kids – I don’t really want to discuss my fertility or menstruation issues, or husband’s issues.
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Good luck to you – you sound like a person everyone needs more of in their lives.
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You sound like an awesome aunty. Those kids and their parents are lucky to have you.
And you will reap what you have sown.
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I am raising may daughter the best I know how to and I am proud of her in every way shape and form and I am not ashamed of this. Yes I may sometimes get in your way with my Pram and yes my daughter may have a temper tantrum occasionally in public but you know what? I don’t have to answer to anyone. If you don’t like kids then sorry you have no right to have an opinion on mine. If you don’t want photos of your kids friends on your Facebook don’t befriend them to begin with when you know they have kids they are proud of and obviously my want to show you their little achievements.
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Agreed. And to expand on that, if you do not like your friend’s photos of their kids on Facebook, they are likely not very good friends. Delete them. Even before I became a mom I enjoyed the update of my true friend’s kids. I couldn’t imagine being annoyed from seeing them.
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I don’t think it’s children that people hate for the most part: it’s their parents. I love a cute kid here and there, even though I’m years off wanting them myself, but I think most childless people view screaming, ill-behaved, physically, mentally and emotionally demanding children as products of their inept parents. That’s not to say that all children who possess the above traits at any given moment aren’t being raised properly, but sometimes I do wonder if a license for having children should be introduced…
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A lot of my friends are currently moving to baby-ville. It’s a difficult thing to navigate with them, seeing as how I’m both single and childless, quite intentionally. Now, if I want to spend time with my friends, I must make the trek to baby-ville myself, watch the new tricks, ignore exorbitant amounts of drool, listen to what life is like on the Other Side. It certainly does feel as though a chasm has been opened up between us and I – the ‘free’ one – am the one who must cross in order to access the friendship. They’ll only leave baby-ville for toddler-ville. I’m still not sure how to make this adjustment. One thing I really don’t appreciate: sitting at a cafe table enjoying coffee with baby-laden friends & having to watch them hoist their children aloft in order to sniff their butts. Surely that’s poor etiquette.
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Wouldn’t it be worse etiquette if they didn’t check and the smell was coming from their child? It would be unrealistic to leave the room to check a nappy every time you detect a possible poo smell in a room with more than one child in it (or just other adults for that matter).
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It annoys me when people talk about parents as if being a parent is a character trait in and of itself. People who talk endlessly about their children, and only their children are boring twats– just insert “self” for children and you’ll see what I mean.
People who park their big-ass prams in everyone’s way are the same people who probably blocked traffic with their big-ass cars before they had children. People who talk incessantly about their children like they’re the centre of the world probably talked about themSELVES like they were the centre of the world before they had children. Do you see where I’m going with this? If you were a boring ego-maniac before you had kids, you’ll be the same after you have them, with slightly different subject material.
The lesson is AVOID annoying people (block their newsfeed, put your headphones in, cross the street, whatever). Parents don’t have a monopoly on annoying, selfish behaviour in public… those people were idiots before they had kids. Just like I am a considerate person with thoughts in my head beyond myself/my children… same as I was as a single person.
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I have kids but find other people’s kids generally rude and inconsiderate. I am often told mine are ‘angels’. Not they’re not, they just know how to behave in public, and if they don’t, I remove them and their noise pollution, and they get consequences.
I figure, if teachers can get 30 kids to behave, then I should have no problem with my two, at least in public.
But then, I subscribe the French parenting methods whihc do not place the children in the centre of the universe. http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/counterpoint/french-children/3857584#transcript
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My very dear (French) friend has, in my opinion, quite badly behaved kids. For the same reasons as anyone would – two parents who work full-time and spend little time with them, so they are disciplined by their childminder, who has a few more kids under her charge. This ‘French’ way is a myth, in my experience.
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Is your “experience” based on the children of one friend?
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And her friends and siblings, yes. Is your ‘experience’ based on a book you’ve read by an author you don’t know and you’ve never actually been to France?
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Well guest, when my younger sister was 18 she did her gap year in France working as an au pair for a family with a three year old and a baby near Montpeller. I visisted her during that year and can confirm that the children that she took care of were generally very well behaved, despite having two parents who worked full time. As were most of the other kids I saw around at the park and at the older childs daycare.
Meanwhile, I have a nephew who is, for want of a better term, a generally spoiled brat. His parents did everything the ‘right’ way- my older sister took a full year off work for her maternity leave and now only works part time, he was breastfed till 18 months, never subjected to controlled crying etc, but this doesn’t seem to have translated into a better behaved child, or a more content one.
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Gee, I think we’re getting a little off the track here.
My original point was that I don’t think there is a radically different ‘French’ way to bring kids up that will make them well behaved. It’s my opinion, based on, as anonymous pointed out, my experience.
Some Random, I’ve spent quite a bit of time in France in the last 10 years myself, and I’m sorry to say I just didn’t notice a big difference in the behaviour of the kids.
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It sounds like my friends and I are much more tolerant than the circle you travel in! Lots of my friends have kids so we get the facebook updates etc but I mostly find them cute.
And yes, kids are pests in cafes and those mums that push the giant prams take up the entire path and refuse to move for anyone.
That said though, there are LOADS of things that annoy me in public and (e.g. really loud speakers on public transport, people who ‘talk down’ to sales assistants, people who put chewing gum on seats, the person who smashed my side mirror off my car and didn’t leave a note…)
None of us have any particular beef with mums and kids, and we all view the irritations listed above as just part and parcel of living in a city.
The author might possibly be unconsciously exaggerating the judgements or criticism of the child-free because she is on the lookout for it.
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As someone without children the amount of pressure I get on why I don’t have children yet is incredibly frustrating. And while I am sure there are some child-free people out there who are anti-children, many of us just don’t have any yet, can’t have them for many reasons, or simply choose not to.
However, I have personally felt belittled and ostracized because I’m not a mum and I’m still in my 20s.
Beyond that though I think the hardest part, and probably the reason why your friends asked you not to become one of ‘those mums’, is because so many of my friends with children are obsessed with their kids and nothing but their kids. My life, interest, work and relationships aren’t even acknowledged, let alone part of the conversation, when we get together. The only topic they can tlak about is babies – even though I don’t have one.
But you know what I do – I talk to them and listen to them and share in those conversations anyway because I care about my friends and their children. I just hope that one day they will see beyond just their children and realize there is more than just that topic of conversation.
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Okay, parents. I’ll make you a deal. I, child-free Carol, do solemnly declare that I will no longer get annoyed by your pram that is the size of a four-cylinder car, will no longer give you dirty looks when little Braeden or Kaetlyn is running around the restaurant or pub screaming at the top of the lungs, and will no longer avoid coffees, lunches, and general catch-ups with those of you who are my friends and speak of nothing but their offspring. Of course, this is conditional upon you promising to never again tell me that I don’t know what tired is because I don’t have kids, to never, ever again suggest that I will someday “change my mind” about being child-free, and assuring me that we will catch-up every now and then without you interrupting the conversation with screams of “Stop it. I said stop it. MUMMY WILL SMACK!!!”. Deal?
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Haha! Amen Carol!
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Yeah, trust me, you really don’t know what tired is until you’ve had one. (As I pour straight coffee down my throat for the 10th time since 5am.)
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Just because I don’t have kids, doesn’t mean I’m not busy or I don’t get tired. I work two jobs (one of which is babysitting), am studying full-time to get a PhD and am currently caring for a parent who has cancer and is having chemo. And I still have to do all the daily chores like cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping etc that any adult has to do. I know exactly what tired is. Parents do not have a monopoly on being tired.
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Bravo to you Carol. Few things fire me up more than being told by a parent that I don’t know what being tired is. People should stop and remember that they rarely know what is going on in other people’s lives.
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I prefer to tell people that I didn’t know what tired was until I had kids. As a doctor who in my early hospital days was once rostered for up to 100 hours a week I thought I would be fine with the sleep deprivation, but it’s different with a new baby because you never get to the gap in the roster that lets you catch up. But I agree it’s very poor form to assume that other people without kids haven’t been there for one reason or another.
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Please don’t make comments like that. It’s just reinforcing the negative stereotype of parents as outlined by Carol above.
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I’m with you on that one Carol! A few years ago I had a life threatening incident (misdiagnosed stomach ulcer led to burst stomach artery) which meant I was basically walking dead for two months before I realised – had major abdominal surgery with my stomach muscles sliced to access the said burst artery. A “friend” who was a mum (quotation marks because she’s no longer a friend, not because of this stuff, but it didn’t help) had kept telling me I couldn’t complain about being tired before it happened – like I said, I was pretty much walking dead (apparently if I had gotten into the op theatre 2 mins later they wouldn’t have saved me) – I had basically such low iron levels and blood levels because I was just constantly losing blood constantly. When I was in hospital, she tried to “cheer me up” by saying at least it wasn’t child birth, because that was “real pain”. A nurse was in the room at the time and she started hysterically laughing, stating “sorry sweetheart, compared to this, childbirth is like a walk in the path – she won’t be sitting up for a month, and she’s on morphine 24/7″.
That said, this is the same girl who got annoyed because I left her bridal shower early. I’d been out of hospital 3 days and was in pain, but how dare I leave before she opened her presents!
I’m not saying parents can’t be tired. But EVERYBODY can be tired, for any number of reasons. Like being half dead!
Which is why I always try to communicate the message that Nurofen Plus and other anti-inflammatory drugs are dangerous as hell. People pop them like tic tacs, without realising how dangerous they are – particularly women because its so effective for period pain. Something to maybe do a story on, Mamamia – I’m happy to discuss my experiences if you ever do want to discuss it – because it’s a really important medical issue that is becoming really common as Nurofen becomes the new panadol
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Ever since I worked in a surgical ward I have always, always taken any anti inflammatory drug like nurofen with food. It doesn’t even need to be a lot, but if it helps you avoid a stomach ulcer…..
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Faybian, my problem was I had a stomach ulcer, my doctor diagnosed it as a chest infection (she said i had “tietze” syndrom) and prescribed me Nurofen plus. Kept going back to her telling her I still had pain, she kept telling me to take more. This little dance played out for six months! A doctor’s advice was the source of the problem! She was a total quack and I don’t see her anymore for obvious reasons!
But after it happened – the amount of people I know who have said to me “I have no idea Nurofen could cause stomach ulcers” was pretty big. That’s why I’m always stating it! I was never warned by a chemist because at that time (it was three years ago) there weren’t any restrictions on Nurofen plus – you could buy 75 for 7.95 with no questions or warnings given! Fortunately it’s different now – I think because problems like mine were becoming common.
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The first paragraph; the mind boggles. There’s some really great doctors out there, but gee there’s some….less great ones. I myself saw 6 doctors over a period of years to get diagnosed with a brain tumour. Go figure.
Everyone I know gets the drill with nurofen etc barked at them.
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Carol, I think most mums of young kids would love nothing more to have an uninterrupted conversation with a friend or sit peacefully in a cafe but toddlers have a habit of getting in the way of these activities!
I know it’s so condescending when people say you can’t understand until you have a child and it used to drive me insane too, but to be honest, everyone says it because it really is true!
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Sorry, Lora, but I will reiterate my point until the cows come home. Everyone can get tired. Other people can be just as busy as a parent. Is being a parent hard and exhausting sometimes? Sure. But so is life. For lots of people, parents or not. Saying that people don’t understand being tired unless they are a parent themselves is obnoxious, rude, and just plain ignorant. And it’s one of my number one gripes with some parents. Stop being martyrs. You chose to have a child, in the same way that I chose to do a PhD and thus have to work two jobs. I’ll say it again. Parents do not have a monopoly on being tired.
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I didn’t know what tired was until I had children. Just because I hadn’t been truly exhausted prior to kids, doesn’t mean it’s not possible for others. It’s similar to people who say they didn’t appreciate / undestand life until they turned forty. Just because you didn’t, doesn’t mean others can’t.
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Exhausting sometimes?? Exhausting all the time. Do you get up 4 times a night? Did you go through labour and then never get the chance to recover because you’re charged with keeping a little person alive? Sorry love, but you don’t get it at all. Your job ends, you get lunch breaks, study breaks…we get no breaks. Would I change it? No way. But please, you DON’T understand what it’s like until you have one.
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Ali… Thank you! You have said everything I wanted to say and couldn’t be bothered to write!! Carol- I’m sure you know how tired feels… But you really dont know the complete and constant exhaustion that comes with having children! It’s so true… You don’t understand what it’s like until you have one.
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Amen. Before bub I worked full time, was doing a masters, and writing part time for a mag. I thought I knew what tired was. No, I didn’t. The exhaustion is constant. No breaks, no catch ups. I’m so sleep deprived I walked into the men’s toilet by mistake yesterday and spent Sunday wearing my skirt back to front. I really shouldn’t be driving. Sorry carol but you come across rude and ignorant. There is no comparison to the parenting tired. It’s not a competition, just a fact.
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Kind of surprised that these last few comments got through pre-moderation moderators. Not sure if they read above what Carol is dealing with and why she is tired. No one is saying that being a parent is not exhausting (I’ve no doubt it is, particularly the early years) but that is not to say that people without children can not be tired also. Non parents being tired does not take away from the tiredness of parents. Carol never said that she knew the exhaustion of being a parent or that her exhaustion exceeds theirs – all she said was she can get exhausted. People without children are allowed to say they are tired without getting a derogatory comeback from a parent. It’s not a competition and it’s not about comparison or one-upmanship.
Yes, there are different levels of exhaustion. But when I used to have to work double shifts of 18 hours in hospitality when I first finished university, let me assure you, I was tired!
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I don’t think Carol was arguing that parents aren’t exhausted. I think she’s annoyed by a situation like this:
Carol: “I’m sorry I’m yawning, I can barely stay awake this afternoon, I am so tired.”
Childed “friend”: “Well, you don’t know what tired is until you’ve had a child!”
Unfortunately many friends, family members have a child and believe they are absolved of having sympathy for other their relations just because they’ve reproduced. The parent’s response to Carol should had simply been something like, “I’m sorry you’re tired” instead of trying to make the statement about THEM with a one-upsmanship.
I learned a lot about who was truly a friend (or close family member) after they had their children. For a time, everything had to be about them because the baby was infant and they were recovering from birth. However, there came a point where there was no excuse for the “friends” to not have any sympathy for me, caring not a whit about what I was going through, showing up late constantly for outings, having to always keep the parent’s hours. I reached a point where I dropped a lot of people as friends and made new ones.
Now, I can’t remember anyone ever telling me that I could, in no way, shape or form, know what tired is because I was childfree, but if they had, I’d have found someone else to hang around with that wasn’t playing the martyr, because I have no patience for that.
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Yikes! I really didn’t intend to start “Tired-Off 2012″! I was simply pointing out the things that annoy me as a child-free person and the things that I sometimes do that might annoy parents. Some of the comments here have completely proven my point, though.
Honestly, it’s not even the dismissive ignorance I have received from some parents over tiredness that I find the most irritating. The all-knowing “you’ll change your mind one day” comments are FAR more annoying!
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There are nice people and there are annoying people; fascinating ones and boring ones. It’s all relative. Some people can talk about their kids with amazing wit and humour – others bore me to tears. With all the variety we are lucky enough to have of where we go/what we read/who we listen to, I think the best advice is just to make wise choices for your own circumstances. I do find it all a bit baffling though. Funny how we can turn the most basic human activities, in which we’re all engaged to some degree (food? sex? families?) into sites of hostility and controversy.
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I have two kids. I am a stay at home mum. I had an amazing career, I decided to leave it behind. Yes, I post pictures on facebook- I have lots of friends and family that live interstate and overseas, and they want to hear stories and see photos. I also post about lots of other things like good days, bad days, observations about the media or politics, new hairstyles or a good gym workout.
I honestly never pay attention to people that pick on parents, although I definitely notice it. It seems terribly rude and judgmental. And if I made a comment about someone who chose not to have kids the way some people without kids feel free to make about my family, I would be met with an icy reception. Imagine, as you call me a suburban tragic houseswive with bratty kids, if I called you a childless weirdo? That would be incredibly insulting, and may not accurately reflect your situation. I don’t comment because I haven’t walked a mile in your shoes.
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I have a 22 month old daughter, and I’m living in Thailand at the moment due to my husband’s job. It’s very difficult being away from my family sometimes and I fly home regularly to visit, plus my parents miss their first grandchild terribly. I fly economy, and get the cheapest possible tickets on budget airlines such as Jetstar, where I think most of us probably wouldn’t expect a luxurious, relaxing experience. My daughter is actually quite a good flier and now will happily sit and watch DVDs and read books for most of the time. But I have encountered so many rude people with all my flying trips in the past 18 months, and not only to myself, but witnessed people being very rude to other people with children.
Fair enough, a 5 year old shouldn’t be allowed to run up and down the aisles. He’s old enough to know better and there’s no way I’d let my daughter do that. But when a 6 month old baby is crying, there’s no doubt the parents are doing all they can to comfort them, and I don’t think they should have to put up with whining and death stares from other passengers. Parents and kids have paid their way and we have as much right to be on the plane as anyone else.
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If you don’t complain about happy snaps of my kids, I won’t complain about Instagrammed photos of your overpriced, pretentious lunch.
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What about the insidious and vain selfies? OMG! Give me photos of innocent children anyday!
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Because everyone without kids takes photos of their lunch & are pretentious in general.
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Glad you agree.
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Ok, this is what I tell my kids: always play with the ‘nice’ children, the one’s who aren’t mean or sarcastic or cruel. I think we should all follow that advice – if you have snarky friends, find some new ones
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As a person who has often been mistaken for someone who hates mothers and children here at mamamia (for the record: I don’t at all) I feel the need to chip in on this one.
I can’t speak for every child-free person, but for me, it’s not about seeing motherhood as trivial or “less than”. It’s not about hating kids. I have quite a few friends with children and it’s not an issue. I respect them, they respect me. I ask them about their kids, they ask me about my cat (no, she is not “just a pet”. She’s a wonderful friend and has even been a lifeline at times.)
While I certainly am happy to give a fair bit of leeway and do (can’t catch up because you have morning sickness? Need to schedule coffee around naptime? Want me to come to your house because it’s easier? No problem) the key point here is that so do they. They don’t think their lives, issues and responsibilities are more important than mine because I don’t have children. If I can’t do something because of uni, finances or medical stuff they give me just as much slack.
They also can have a conversation about things other than their kids. In fact, in most cases, they’re the ones who want to talk about other stuff. Usually art, politics or shit reality tv. I don’t expect conversation to be a child-free zone but if ALL you can talk about is your kids every time we catch up and this is a sustained state (first few months after birth is excusable) then yeah, it’s going to get old. Friendship requires give and take. You don’t get a free pass on that when you become a parent. And if it’s what you need from your friend, be aware of it and own it. Sometimes we go through times where we need to bang on about something to get it out of our systems. I get it. I’ve done it. But own it with a bit of, “I’m sorry, I know I’m kind of obsessing but I really need to talk about this stuff, is that ok?” And no, that’s not about being expected to apologise for having kids- I’ve made similar statements when I’ve needed to vent about my health or family dramas.
As for kids being banshees in public- if you’re not *appearing* to do anything about it, is it really so unreasonable of people to be annoyed by that? If your baby is crying, I may cringe inwardly due to the noise but I’m not going to judge you, because it’s not like there’s much you can do about it. But if you’re letting your older kids run around and trash a cafe or repeatedly run into me with one of those godawful miniature trolleys, then yeah, I’m going to think you’re obnoxious.
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Bravo for a sensible, reasonable take on this. You have just articulated everything I was thinking.
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Well said. I’ve been a parent all my adult life and there is definitely more to life than my kids. Talking about just them would drive ME insane, let alone others. I do understand, however, when you are a SAHM or SAHD, you haven’t had a lot of other activity or people in your day.
The most (to me) offensive thing is to be called a “breeder”. Drives me up the wall. “Crotch fruit” etc is also offensive, because, aren’t we all just someone’s crotch fruit???
I’m not accusing you of this btw.
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No, I definitely agree with you on those words. Nasty. I believe I used “breeder” once or twice in the past but haven’t for a long time.
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I’m with you on the mini shopping trolleys. They are a magnet for the kids whose parents dont give a rats, dont care if they give an old man a hernia trying to get his trolley out of their path or who think their child smashing into someone elses shins is worth ignoring…
I wont let my kids use them because I am aware of how much of a pain in the arse they can be.
I did chuckle to myself a few weeks ago. The typical mini trolley family was near me in Coles. Little boy was running wild with his trolley while his mum zoned out and ignored him while she looked at the vegies. BAM. He smacked his trolley into the back of her ankle. She was in a lot of pain, wasnt happy and actually took his trolley back while telling him off very angrily. Hopefully thats one less mini trolley menace on the loose for now, and I think mum did learn this lesson the hard way
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“Children, our most vulnerable members of society, are fair game when it comes to some adults being openly intolerant towards them. ”
This gets even worse when you have children with a invisible disability, like my children with Autism. From my experience it appears to some segments of the community unless the disability is obvious (like a wheelchair, guide dog or cane) that it is fine to be intolerant and just plain discriminatory towards children with a disability.
Children with a disabilities have a right to participate within our society just the same as any other person.
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I had 3 beautiful kids 20-30 years ago. Each has grown into a wonderful adult I am reguarly frustrated by other Mothers lack of social awareness.
We scowl at the woman who parks a stroller in the middle of cafes, not because you are a mother but because it can be plain rude! It’s just common sense not to put it there.
Just because you are a Mum does not give you an excuse to ‘get away’ with socially irresponsible behaviour.
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Precisely. Some mums seem to think that having kids means the world revolves around them and all consideration for others goes out the window. I’ve been glared at by mums for daring to try and manoeuvre around their 4WD prams taking up the entire footpath/aisle/cafe etc. A little consideration goes a long way (and that goes for the parents and the childless!).
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The pram left blocking the walkway by a young mum is no different to the shopping trolley left blocking the supermarket aisle by anyone else. Inconsiderate, selfish actions are not unique to mums with babies! Personally, I find dodging the trolleys left randomly mid aisle by a vague solo shopper far more frustrating than a pram.
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Much less chance of cafe staff spilling hot coffees or hot food or perhaps tripping over with trays of coffee cups, food, empty plates onto a shopping trolley left mid aisle in a supermarket.
A pram blocking or impeding access in a cafe? hmmmmm
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As I’ve pointed out on other posts about this, I would LOVE not to have a ’4wd pram’ and do switch to a smaller umbrella stroller as soon as the kids are big enough. But trying to find a small pram these days (particularly if you don’t/ can’t spend a grand or so on a sleek model) is almost impossible – they’re just made that way. I do my best to move it out of the way, but often there’s not much you can do with them. Trust me, I hate them as much as you do!
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Yep, fair enough. Besides, isnt that what food halls are for? Grab your coffee and sit there with friends. Plenty of open space for prams without bothering the owner of the small cafe and making them lose business because at least 2 tables are inaccesible because of the monster prams parked next to it………not to mention the screaming babies in them who should be at home in bed scaring the customers away
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i sometimes calmly move prams out the way a bit. Sometimes the pram is paused somewhere cos mums hands are full, it’s not parked there permanently. No one ever says anything.
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Holy Moly. I’m either really ignorant or live in a much more mum friendly place than the author. I’ve never encountered this at all. I’ve only encountered good things from people without children.
There’s a lot in the article I couldn’t give a stuff about. If you don’t want to see photos of my kid, unfriend me – easy! Or even easier, stop me coming up on your news feed. You don’t want me to discreetly feed my daughter in public? Couldn’t care less, your problem not mine. Don’t like prams at the cafe, for goodness sake get over yourself. Just as the world is not just for mums, it’s also not just for quiet, unchildrened people.
After weeks of asking we took our 2 year old on the train this weekend. She loved it! Saying how fast we were going, expressing delight at the trees, the cars, ‘all the ladies Mummy’ and trying to find our stop. No way would I let anyone make me feel bad for giving my daughter that experience, and if you want to, shame on you.
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Wow, I must live under a rock, I had no idea such sites existed
I have 4 kids of my own and I know how hard it can be at times. But I am also a human being in my own right first and I also know how annoying lots of things in life can be, especially in trying situations and confined spaces.
Yep, flying long haul with a kicking and screaming toddler behind your seat is annoying, but so too is flying sitting behind a groovy young thing who doesnt remove their headphones for the entire flight and ignores requests to move their seat forward so you can get out of your own to go to the loo or eat your meal. Or the arrogant businessman who speaks to the airline staff like dirt. Or the person who thinks they can push in at the shop counter because they can get away with it, or the parent who ignores their child while they stand on the counter that is covered in signs that say ‘please keep your children off the counter’. Or the person who wont allow a car to merge in the traffic or the person who thinks its ok to park so close to the car next to them its impossible for them to open their door and get in. Or let your child empty all the sugar sachets on the table in the cafe and sprinkle it all over the floor. If I am out for dinner with my own children at the local Thai and we have worked hard to make sure our kids sit still and eat their meal like civilised humans, I will give you the death stare for allowing yours to run wild outside the restaurant and race back in every 5 minutes.
Respect is earned by decent behaviour, whether that is your actions individually or as a parent. Nobody is better than anybody else and whether you have a child with you or you are solo.
So if you live like you think the world revolves around you and your child or just revolves around exclusively dont expect respect because you need to behave decently, as do your children, to receive it.
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I work full time and have 3 of my own kids and 2 step kids that we have often. Most of my friends are mums, and some work and some don’t. Some love working and some don’t. But we all love our kids very much and celebrate every milestone. I’ll say it again. Get new friends! I have never heard of those dopey websites and I daresay once I finish typing this I will have lost it from my memory banks because I’m too tired, busy and happy to care less what those judgemental fools think!!!!
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I love kids, but a lot of parents drive me up the wall.
For starters, when did prams become the size of a Smart car? My mother managed with just a sling and her handbag, so yeah, when I have to step off the footpath onto a major road because your behemoth of a pram is taking up ALL THE SPACE, that’s annoying (and dangerous).
I don’t mind seeing pictures of kids on Facebook, but be a little selective. The first picture of your child biting into an apple for the first time is kind of cute. The 79th is just spam. Also, no one wants a daily pictorial update on the contents of your baby’s diaper. Also yes, I would much rather have pictures of baby seals clogging up my feeds. Baby seals are always cute, poo pictures not so much.
I get that children will cry and have tantrums. No problem. But when your child has been screaming at the top of their lungs for 45 minutes and you order a third coffee, everyone’s going to hate you a little (especially the poor cafe owner who’s losing business).
The biggest things in my life are my partner, my job and my studies. I think my man is amazing, that my job is wildly interesting and that that lecture I just went to was incredible. I do talk about these things, but I also manage to talk about news and books and ASK THE OTHER PERSON ABOUT THEIR LIFE! When we haven’t talked properly for a month and you can’t even ask me how I am before launching into a 3 hour monologue about your child and all the many different poo’s they do, you’re very close to losing a friend. I get that the baby is the biggest thing in your life, but everyone has something that’s the ‘biggest’. I could happily talk about my job all day, but I don’t because that would be rude and I get that no one but me really cares that much.
Finally, the fact that you gave birth does not make you more important than me. If I have to leave work in the middle of day to visit you because any other time would mess up your routine, guess what, you’re probably not going to be seeing a lot of me. At least try to meet your friends halfway. Also believe it or not, childless people have problems too. Please don’t scoff at friends who are tired or stressed. I haven’t slept more than 3 hours a night since I was about 13 (insomniac who sleeping pills don’t agree with) but I don’t feel the need to tell everyone who complains about tiredness that they don’t know what tired is. Apart from having some empathy, it’s really just basic manners, which you don’t get to just throw out the window because you’re a mum.
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Love this!
A friend of mine had a baby recently. First time I met up with her after she left hospital, I was fully expecting conversation to be about the baby and not much else. But after 20minutes of baby talk, she commented that it was getting boring and started talking about something she had read in the Financial Review that morning.
Thats how I want to do motherhood!
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Well said. I’m a mother and I’m also sick to death of the behaviour of some parents. I frequently go to Westfield at Bondi Junction and I’m pretty sure that is where all of the rude and arrogant mothers meet. They let their children run wild while they sit and have their coffees. They use the ELC toy shop as their private child care centre and let them destroy the shop while they run errands. I really do feel sorry for the people that work there as they have to put up with a lot.
What really gets on my nerves is when I go for my morning walks in Centennial Park. Mothers seem to walk side by side with their prams and expect everyone else to get out of their way. When I refuse to get out of their way they give me the dirtiest looks. Honestly, the world does not revolve around you lot.
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I think it’s really easy to judge when you haven’t experienced how truly all consuming a child is. Seriously, I can’t see much friendship in what you’ve written. I don’t know where to start – I mean, a sling and a handbag!?!
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Yep, have a six-month-old, have a small pram that is in the car boot and hardly ever gets used. Most days we get out with a baby sling and a handbag.
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I had back problems, tried several types of slings and hated them, even worse in summer
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Love that might work for a 6 month old, but add a few months and kilos to the 6 month old and a toddler or 2 who are runners to the mix and a big pram is a life saver. And anyone who dares complain about that has no idea about parenting toddlers and babies. Unless they have staff to help out or have incredible patience.
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I can see your point about prams. But conversely… I have one of the narrowest prams out there. I was directed to it when I told the shop assistant I’d be climbing stairs every time I got home, and catching buses and trains on a daily basis. It doesn’t take up *much* more space than someone with a large bag on their back, swinging elbows and swerving while they chat on the phone. So why do people fitting pretty much that description not have to look where they’re going, and then do a double-take and give me a foul look when they’re nearly on top of me with my baby in the pram, while I either swerve out of the way, or hold course hoping they’ll open their eyes? I am taking up the minimum space I can while caring for my children and considering their right to walk past me on the footpath. They are not.
Of course, as always, I’m sure you are not the sort of person that does this. Your response to the article suggests you do generally care about those around you (we all have off days and self-focussed moments, or I do, anyway…). So… does anyone have any suggestions for how I can courteously navigate around such people as I described above with sense of humour intact?
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I too bought a slimline pram for the same reason and I thought it was just me that had noticed that 95% of the population does not share the footpath with a pram. That was until my husband said how rude the majority of people are by barging past a pram like you’re a second class citizen….
I am not asking for people to give me right of way but two people walking side by side towards me should go in single file so I can share the path with you! I find it so interesting given I see them give way to walkers further along the path but a pram obviously doesn’t count and I am forced to walk on the grass or road to get around them…
I am resigned to the fact now but I wonder just how this subconscious behaviour came about- especially as males tend to be the most courteous and it is older women that are the worst culprits…?
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Agree with a lot here Kate, but re the size of the buggy: If you have twins, a sling and a handbag ain’t gonna work.
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Please Kate, I would love it if you wrote to the pram makers then – there’s really not much choice in small prams out there – as for the handbag and a sling, I do it when I can, but it’s not always practical. I hate huge prams too, but there’s not much I can do about it when that’s pretty much what’s for sale!
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I can understand the dinner guest who asked to talk about something else for a while – as much as I love talking about my friends babies and all of the things they get up to, it does get tiring and it’s nice to talk about something else. In fact, I know that my friends that have babies feel this way too – it gets boring talking about the one thing all night!
It’s the same for everything – if I talked incessantly at a dinner party about my job or my crafting hobby or my boyfriend you would get tired of it – it’s all about balance and being understanding that sometimes people want you to listen to their news too.
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I totally agree b. That dinner party guest had every right to ask if the conversation could be about something else. That woman was just being plain rude by monopolising the conversation. Dinner parties are about everyone talking and participating, they’re not for some mother to bang on incessantly about her child.
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Don’t like my status updates and pictures?! Unfriend me!!
Don’t want to unfriend me!?
Block me from your news feed!!
If you are friends or “friends” (in the case of some FB relationships!) you need to accept the good and the bad. The annoying and the entertaining. I’m all for people writing whatever they want (as long as it’s not racist, homophobic etc), if I don’t like it, that’s my prob not theirs!
Great article Lee!
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I explained it to my friends like this: remember when you first met your boyfriend and you went into the honeymoon period and could barely talk about anything else and we hardly saw you? That’s what parenthood is like.
After about a year I’ll realise that I can go places without a pram (and that the giant pram was a stupid idea), my kid will have something of a routine and I will be able to meet up when they aren’t tired and cranky because I will know when that is, or I’ll be confident leaving them with someone.
Sort of, that recipe isn’t foolproof (one of my kids is autistic so he’s 9 and I can’t take him anywhere!), but there is light at the end of the tunnel. For parents and their friends!
As far as the attitude towards parents in general goes, as in any group, there’s a minority that spoils it for the rest of us. I think I might be one of them
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Beautifully said. I think especially for that first year when you’re feeding a baby constantly and getting two hours sleep a night it is very difficult to emerge from the fog socially, you and your baby can feel quite vulnerable. But as the child gets older and more resilient – so do you and you find you can get out more, get more involved in the world outside the domestic/family unit, go out at night and enjoy an uninterrupted conversation. I guess we all just need to practice a bit of tolerance for differing lifestyles and routines.
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I think that babies and children should be banned from First Class cabins – I think they should be fine in Business Class. Not that I know because I have only ever flown economy but if I did win the lotto and flew First Class I wouldn’t want any kids in there distracting me from my personal chef and expensive vintage champagne…..
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If us mum’s won lotto, we would also want a child free first class with vintage champagne and HEADPHONES…lol
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If you’ve got the money to buy the ticket…
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Air Asia’s new ‘Quiet Zone’ will ensure your champagne drinking (and snoozing afterwards) won’t be interrupted Torah F – not quite First Class, but maybe they’ll install ‘sound-proof’ curtains behind Row 14 as well
It’s still better than what other airlines offer and only a matter of time before they follow suit.
http://www.airasia.com/ask/template.do?id=563
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I am a mum but must admit that I find it annoying when people put up endless posts about their kids, specials at K-Mart and other mundane things. That said, I also find it annoying when people put up endless posts about their dog, or their particular environmental/political/social cause. People need to provide balance. Of course it is ok to put up some stuff but just because you have had a child does not mean that that is all you are.
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