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I’m going to reveal a fundamental truth. Evidently this will come as a shock to some.
Newsflash: straight white men are not an underclass. They have all the rights. Still do, always have. More rights than anyone else.
A few weeks ago we ran this piece from the Prime Minister about the importance of continuing the good fight for gender equality.
What we didn’t expect when we published it, was to unearth a new underclass of ‘oppressed’ people who objected to the idea of our PM (or anyone) singling out women for special mention. I’m paraphrasing:
‘What about men? We have issues too!’
‘How dare you mention women’s rights when men are suffering’.
‘We shouldn’t focus on women’s rights until we fix the problems men have’.
Ah, of course, it’s the loud and noisy Faux Oppressed. A minority of individuals in a social majority of straight white men who cling desperately to the notion that the rest of us have come to rob them of the immense privilege they have in this world. Priveleges they don’t even realise they have.
We must have completely missed the subtext of that article (apparently only obvious to a few white men) which was, more or less, a call for women to subjugate men everywhere.
Battle stations fair wenches, you have more testicles to crush. And what about gay people and their search for equality? That’s a right too far for some!
Let’s be perfectly clear: if you have all the rights, you are out in front. You’re winning. Somebody or some group gaining a few more rights so they begin to catch up isn’t going to alter the privilege you already have. Rights are not a finite commodity. Rights are not, for example, coal. You can’t run out of them. They’re as infinite as society wants to make them.
Equality isn’t a question of Robin Hood economics. We don’t have to take any rights to grant new ones. That’s the beauty of it.
Now, far be it for me to couch the debate over gender equality (or any other social issue) in terms of winners and losers. Truth be told there should be no winners. And no losers. It should be a tie. But currently, there are losers in these particular debates: women, gays and lesbians, transgender people, Indigenous people. Every time this subject comes up a chorus line of the Faux Oppressed emerges with arguments about how they’re really doing it tough. Tougher than the lot we’d originally gathered to discuss. When Julia Gillard says that women aren’t paid as much as men for doing the same job, that’s a fact, not an opinion.
In almost every scenario imaginable, the Faux Oppressed are of the dominant gender, skin colour, religion, political party, club, group, whatever.
We’re talking straight white men. This is important: Not all of them. Not every straight white man is pining for lost rights (where did those ‘rights’ even go?) but almost every person who is outraged by any talk of equality is a straight, white man. Most of them get it. They know they’re out in front. And they’re OK about stopping to help others. Mostly Because:
When Indigenous people got the vote, men didn’t lose their vote.
When women are given pay increases, it doesn’t come from the pay packets of men.
When gays are eventually allowed to marry, straight marriages won’t self combust.
Want to argue with some facts? Sure!
Two thirds of the 800 million people worldwide who lack basic literacy skills are women. Globally 1 in 3 women and girls experience physical and sexual violence with rates as high as 2 in 3 in some Pacific countries. Australian women still earn, on average, 18 per cent less than Australian men in the workplace. At almost every turn, women are not out in front. Men are. So why anyone would get all huffy that we want to try and close this gap (note: close it, not widen it in the other direction) is beyond me.
“Can you just shut up about your ‘equality’ now? I’m sick of seeing gay stories all over the news.”
That’s an actual quote from somebody whose fundamental human right to not hear stories about the gays was being infringed right that minute on the news.
My favourite is ‘we have more important issues to worry about, like asylum seekers coming here and taking our privileges’!
It’s not that being a straight white male makes you immune to problems. Yes, some men are abused by female partners. But the vast majority of victims of domestic violence (to pick one example) are overwhelmingly women and children.
Of course men have problems. But women are still not equal.
Of course straight people have issues too. But gay people are still not equal.
Narrowing the headstart you have on equality does not suddenly mean you’re losing. It means society is learning to run a fairer race.
Need a funnier argument? There’s a bit of swearing but Louis CK has the goods:
Comments
291 Comments so far
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I definitely cunocr with the advice “do not be afraid.”I am amazed how much fear there is not only with tech use in general, but specifically with publishing ideas on the open web. We need to encourage, support and edify other educators at every opportunity to actively join online conversations and move from lurker / observer to active participant.
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Pretending men, or white men, or white heterosexual men, are not oppressed, is the reason I’m suing the Gender Institute of the London School of Economics. You can read all about it, and hear the AVFM interview too, at sexismbusters dot org
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There *are* some scenarios in which men are oppressed. Take the family courts in this country – men do *not* get a fair shake of the stick. That said, I only feel comfortable saying that I deserve equality in that sphere because I’m committed to fight the inequality visited upon women, upon gays, upon lesbians, upon the poor, upon the underdog.
Everyone has some oppression, but when your sister is under a boulder and you’re doing nothing, you haven’t earned the right to moan about the stone in your shoe.
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Thanks Cal, I agree with you completely.
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Dear Rick,
I have harboured a secret crush on you since your very first post on Mamamia.
After reading this post though, I feel compelled to publicly declare my devotion.
Love,
onesmalllife
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Let’s look at it this way:
If you begin the race of life as a white, straight male, you are 10km (arbitrarily selected distance) ahead of your nearest rival. Whether individuals maximise this advantage is a separate issue. If they are overtaken by a black, lesbian women from a lower socio-economic group then that woman has had to work extra hard and overcome institutional discrimination in order to overtake him.
On an individual basis, are there white, straight men doing it tougher than a whole host of other individuals eg. white women, black men, black women? (and the combinations and list could go on but you get the point) Yes of course there are. The key point is that they started in different places in this race of life and the straight, white male had the least amount of work to do in order to stay in the front position.
It is difficult to find two more equal, in terms of life’s opportunities, than siblings. Consider this (real life) situation: triplets, with identical twin boys and a girl. All raised the same way, same socio-economic class, same education, values, time in history and yet the girl has to work harder and overcome ingrained discrimination in order to be equal with her brothers in life.
I have heard it put this way: there is knowledge and ways of operating that are privileged in our society and that knowledge is more readily held by the groups in society that are therefore privileged.
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Wonderful piece, Rick. Beautifully articulated, well done.
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I just want to make another comment. All Rick is trying to do is to get people to check their privilege. Checking your privilege is about noticing that on a whole (not individuals cases or anecdotes) one group is advantaged over another in society. I will give you an example;
I am white, middle class, and straight. I need to acknoweldge these things before I make judegments about others, or try to influence decisions about others. I must also take affirmative action for groups who are not as advantageous as me. For example, do not say racist, homophobic, or classist things. Furthermore, I must acknowledge that the groups I am advantaged over, may harbour some resentment towards me, and I must not be offended by this as it is not a personal attack on me, but a reaction to many years of oppression at the hands of groups I am a part of. If a person of colour calls me ‘white trash’ I am not offended by this. If a non straight person calls me a ‘breeder’ I am not offended by this, or if a working class person calls me a ‘rich….’ I also not offended by this because this aggression stems from oppression. However, if a man calls me sexist slurs it hurts very deeply. This is because society will dismiss this as nothing. Society in some cases won’t even acknowledge it or challenge it (a lot of popular music is seething with hatred for women, as are a lot of films and media, and this has always been the case).
It’s not about sacraficing my rights. These groups I am advantaged over will never take away my rights because it’s not possible, as they are at a disadvantage in society. Just acknoweldge these things and it may make you less of an asshole.
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Oh my, thank you. Brilliantly articulated.
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I disagree. I think terms like breeder or white trash are never ok. Bigoted is bigoted.
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When that photo was taken would have been around the last time you could say women overall were oppressed in australia, so good choice there rick.
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You’ve never been through the family law system or
had a woman make false DV allegations.
Enter those realms with a partner and you see gender bias at it’s worst.
If we want to break down the boys club, we need true gender equality and merit based employment not affirmative action.
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This. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
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Oh FFS.
Yes 1% of women might make shit up to try to get back at people because they are vindictive. Men make shit up too. (stop the friggin presses!) Quick! Let’s not allow equality because it turns out HUMANS lie!
Let’s ignore the fact that most sexual assaults go unreported.
Have YOU been through family court? I never had to because my dad pissed off and left my mum bankrupt, then he didn’t pay child support for the next twelve years. It was a super happy time. But hey, I suppose my mum actually made this happen because she is a wicked, wicked woman.
Does that mean I think all men should be castrated? No. Does that mean I think mothers should automatically get custody of kids? No.
The legal system, amazingly enough, has a very strong series of checks and balances to ensure false accusations don’t make it to court, to ensure the best for families in shitty situations and to ensure cases are dealt with on an individual basis.
ENGAGE BRAIN BEFORE TYPING!
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No, you engage brain before typing.
My grandmother left six kids and ran off to another continent with a man she just picked up at a bar. She returned years later and tried to sue for custody for *some* of her children – yes, she only wanted the two youngest. My grandfather had a hell of a fight to keep custody of his own children who *wanted* to stay with him, and his ex-wife wasn’t lying about anything – the judge was mainly concerned at the idea that a man couldn’t possibly do as good a job of raising children as a woman could.
Whether there is lying going on or not, there is still bias and there is still an assumption that mothers are the most vital people a child could know, but fathers are an optional extra.
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This is about statistics, not personal anecdotes. Does your grandmother leaving your grandfather with the children mean that, stastically, women born between 1920 and 1940 were massively superior in numbers to men as far as “abandonning the household”? Nope.
That’s why children are, as a rule, given to their mothers in case of a separation. Because of statistics proving that, statistically, fathers care less. So you’re grandfather’s case must have confused the judge, being the “one on a billion” of cases he’d seen.
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I’m not going to lie and say there is no bias for women in the family courts. We’ve all heard the horror stories. Unfortunately where people are concerned there will be lies and vindictiveness on both sides.
Were you aware, however, that up until approx 150 years men were considered the natural guardians of children in thhe event of a breakup. More so if the family were wealthy. So things have changed somewhat, perhaps the pendulum needs to balance out, but the other way wasn’t fair either.
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I agree with you Faybian. I would NEVER want to go back to the dark ages where women and children were considered chattel. However, the assumption that all fathers are only fit for every other weekend care of children is disgusting!
When you have both parents working in most families these days, why wouldn’t you have a presumption of shared care?
Yes, there are some checks and balances for false allegations – but no penalty (even though when they were in place, they were hardly ever enforced).
I notice no one commented on the difficulty of getting a Court result for DV committed by a woman. There is none of the support offered to men that there is to women. My partner had to sit and be menaced by his assailant where, if he were female, would have been awarded a separate room. Did he feel any less upset because he has goolies? No, he was a wreck and then had to present his own case because police only represent 100% winnable cases (ie women).
I support gender equality, but it’s not exactly equality when support isn’t dished out without regard to gender.
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Flutterby, it’s probably too late but mensline does have dedicated workers for men and DV issues whether on the giving or receiving end. They also have dedicated men’s shelters for men to access too. The services aren’t as large or encompassing as those for women, but it’s a start.
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I think the family courts system is pretty crap whichever angle you take it at. I know it is in SA anyway.
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You want me to list them all. I didnt have to look far, the very article you use as an example, you are doing the very same. Pathetic retort rick when backed into a corner.
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I cant seem to reply to your challenge below so leave it her rick, go read your post at 10.53am 15 sept in the gillard article and come back and tell me how that is different.
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You said: why then do you post re gay rights all the time on posts?
You gave one example. Hardly all the time now is it!
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See my response above, site was playing up not letting me reply. Everyone please read the thread I started below, look up ricks comments re gay rights in the julia gillard post on female rights, and tell me rick isnt being hypocritical.
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haha nice video!At a conference I rtenecly attended, we had several brainstorming sessions devoted to finding ways to improve the grant we were all on. An expert moderator rotated between several groups, and I always felt like he did more harm than good. In one instance, a constructive conversation was beginning, but it didn’t fit the format that had been imposed on us, so he actually stopped the discussion to reimpose the format. By the time he’d done his damage and moved on to the next group, the idea was gone.
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It’s willfully dishonest of you to conflate men’s issues with those of whites and heterosexuals as a means of dismissing them. More so, bringing in issues of global inequality towards women and girls as if that could possibly be justification for discrimination or worse outcomes for men and boys in the developed world. No one should accept disadvantage in an attribute in their country, merely because their demographic group is in a better position globally – as is the case with educational disparity, with girls being worse off globally but better off in the developed world.
Gay people have a handful of utterly trivial advantages and a much more menacing clump of disadvantages and bigotry directed towards them. The argument that allowing gay marriage somehow disadvantages heterosexuals is a silly one, and so too would be any claims that LGBT people are, in totality, advantaged or even are 100% equal to straight people.
The same is not true in regards to men and women, though. The list of areas where women are better off than men would be orders of magnitude larger and more significant than, for example, areas where ethnic minorities are better off than white people. Ultimately, if it is better to be a man or a woman in modern Western society is dependent upon subjective weighting of issues; is the greater female life expectancy a fair trade for men being the majority of politicians? Or is the greater likelyhood of sexual victimization amongst women a better position than the greater likelyhood of being a victim of violence overall for men?
Furthermore, many of the issues that contemporary feminists push for aren’t a matter of rights; to impose a quota on executives requires that men ‘lose’ as many seats as women gain – it is very much zero sum.
Besides which, you deride men for commenting on articles about women’s issues and seeking to bring that discussion towards those of men. I can see why that might be frustrating, but what exactly would you have them do? Just as there were precious few outlets where discussion and remedies for women’s issues could be found in the past, so too there are almost none for men’s issues presently.
Feminists have been willing to take discussions that were not about women’s issues and divert them to their ends because they felt their issues were ignored. Much of such activism is generally considered a good thing now, and perhaps the same will be said about the similar behaviour regarding men’s issues that occurs now. Certainly, it would be difficult to argue that men’s issues are covered adequately, unless one thinks that they are perhaps 1/100th of women’s issues.
It’s all well and good saying that your view for gender equality should result in fairness for all, but it is eminently sensible for those who care about men as a demographic to seek resolutions for men’s issues presently and push them to the forefront, rather than hoping that someone will get around to fixing them once we’ve finished with any areas where women are thought to be getting an unfair deal.
Right now, there is almost no attention paid towards men’s issues, and one of the primary methods of changing that is to inform people of the areas men are disadvantaged in or have worse outcomes in – how many people are aware women earn less money, but unaware that 3/4ths of suicides are men? Raising awareness might well be the first step towards actually getting people to care about these issues.
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When you mentioned the suicide statistics, I noticed that the fact that more women than men attempt suicide but are unsuccessful was not mentioned. You aren’t the only one to omit this fact, but it does suggest that women suffer from depression etc just as much as men, but perhaps it’s expressed differently. I wonder how many are aware of this fact…..
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A girl at my school took 10 panadol as a suicide attempt. It always seems to me there are those who commit suicide because death is better than their problems and there are those who don’t want to die, but want the attention.
If you can’t kill yourself, you probably didn’t want to.
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Actually, that was a pretty decent suicide attempt. A few more and she would have had a long drawn out painful death. Were you aware that mental health professionals see any suicide attempts as serious? That’s because 1: it’s a cry for help, 2: eventually they’ll get it right. My point was also that just as many women as men are depressed and that talking suicide stats should always include suicide attempts (as both males and females will attempt it), otherwise it completely skews the picture. Your view is very simplistic.
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I agree with you but please raise these issues on another forum. DO not come into a discussion on domestic violence, child birth trauma, or the reality of sexism (which as a woman I would know a lot about) and try to raise men’s issues to shut women up. It’s only very recently women have actually had the chance to even talk about their own issues, and things that effect them. Please please just give us space to do that, and we will support you on men’s issues to. I would be very happy to join a charity on male suicied prevention, or speak out against domestic violence towards men, just not in the space for women. Let women have some space to share and talk about things that effect them, and maybe then feminists would stop seeing MRA as a thinly veiled excuse for shutting women up and oppressing them further.
The fact that men cannot give women one webiste, or a few news articles to talk freely about their own issues- is a very bad reflection on MRA groups.
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Aren’t you doing the same thing?
If a group of white, hetero men are worried that things like equal pay or gay marriage will take rights away from them – aren’t you being worried that men wanting equality will take equality away from you?
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Rick this is amazing, you’ve just nailed it! Awesome work!
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There’s a lot of hatred for men here. Looking for excuses to dismiss every possibly complaint, It seems like there are a lot of people here that think their lives as women in Australia are so underprivileged and men are the opposite, but it’s just pure, sheer ignorance to ignore men committing suicides at alarming rates. Where’s the compassion? So what if men don’t go to the doctors? Shouldn’t we be helping them and encouraging them? It’s really saddening. To anyone who is a parent of a boy, you have a responsibility to see beyond your own privilege and learn and understand what problems your sons may face and stop laughing at them and start taking them seriously. Otherwise his funeral may be the toughest wake up call you ever get.
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I’m sure that those of us who are mothers of sons, as a rule, are not “laughing at them” and are aware of problems that boys face. Thanks.
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i have been adivsed by an older woman that men who do “women’s work” like social work, teaching, nursing are taken more seriously, by their managers and colleagues and rise to the top much faster.
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The way I am treated at work because I am female is very different to that of my male colleagues and the sad thing is they don’t even know they’re doing it. For example, I am level to another male who is older than me in my office but I am asked to fetch everyone drinks at group meetings, and I am asked to make travel arrangements for my boss. Also, another example of sexism in the workplace is when your male colleagues comment and rate your body like you’re an object.
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you poor thing.
You need to put a plan in place.
With support (an older woman, HR, counselling, The Office of Women?), this can be challenged.
I would take it one day at a time, start by challenging small stuff.
Keep in your head, this is ourageous discriminaiton and is against the law and your company policy. Perhaps this can be brought to your manager’s attention if needed.
Good luck.
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well said (as usual) Rick. Of course, you opened another can of worms, judging by the comments already, but at least they’re on point this time!
Throughout your article I kept singing
“Y’all don’t know what it’s like
Being male, middle-class and white!”
classic Ben Folds humour
http://www.lyricstime.com/ben-folds-rockin-the-suburbs-lyrics.html
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Oh, Rick. I love you!
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Your opening line says white hetro men have ‘all’ the rights, then you follow that immediately after by saying they have ‘most’. Which is it? Because it makes quite a difference to your argument rick. I would have thought equal rights are protected by law in australia. Therefore, what we are really discussing is different gender outcomes. In this context, to suggest that white hetro men have no negative gender outcomes is clearly false. You dont have to think that hard to find them, try health, workplace safety, substance abuse, family law, life expectancy, suicide, homelessness, education outcomes. Now to point these thing out as a man is not to say that in australian women (or gays or whomever) dont also suffer from adverse gender outcomes. They clearly do, and probably more so than most men. But to be so sure of the ‘privilege’ of most men smacks severly of ignorance rick. Have you ever considered that this is precisely why men feel that issues important to them dont get heard.
So many women on MM point out how it is they feel hard done by in being a woman, and so they should. It is dangerous ground indeed when we start drawing a line in the sand re who is deemed truely worthy of being heard. I am not sure I like the idea of you being in charge of that line rick, as I think you have far too narrow a definition of what counts as disadvantage, and an overstated view of how easy the typical blokes lot really is.
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As a footnote rick, I find your whole argument a bit ironic. I would hardly call you oppressed, a young, professionally employed, white, educated man living in sydney. Ok, gay, but these days that hardly counts as oppressed. I would call you way luckier than many of the white hetro men you lump into this one box called privilige. Yet I note that on almost all posts on womens issues you like to drop in comments and references to gay issues and disadvantage. Is it not therefore more than a tad hypicritical to say that there is an entire group of australian society that is not entitelled to do what you do every single day on here yourself. Who decided that the issue important to you has free rein, while others must shut up and just accept their lot?
Just because people bring up that men have issues too does not mean they deny womens issues. And quite frankly, I think there is a much bigger issue at MM re how many women view men, just read below. I doubt I will hear you complaining about that any time soon.
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Oh I’m not oppressed. God no. I don’t have equal rights but I’m not oppressed. I’m very lucky. And I realise that.
Some people, however, don’t realise how lucky they are!
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So why then do you post re gay rights all the time on posts that are not about same? Isnt that doing exactly what other blokes do?
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Ummm, when?
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Jason, you really need to get a life and stop hating everyone and trolling. It’s really not good for you. And quit the homophobia, you do know what studies say about homophobes dont you? Rick, you’re a legend. Beautifully put. Thank you for such a respectful piece.
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um… if you do not have the same rights as someone else, and you ask for this to be addressed, it’s not the same as a member of a group who has all the rights whinging that they will feel sad that someone else has the same (NOT MORE) rights as they do.
The (il)logic of some people well and truly floors me.
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All the rights you say. Please tell me who in Australia has ALL the rights – this is the very point. Your illogical thoughts floors me. the idea that men have no gender issues at all is so offensive. And they have as much right to talk about them as Rick does to talk about issues that affect him. Doh!
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bravo. spot on
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“Can you just shut up about your ‘equality’ now? I’m sick of seeing gay stories all over the news.”
That’s an actual quote from somebody whose fundamental human right to not hear stories about the gays was being infringed right that minute on the news.”
Bahahahah this made me laugh so much! My god – some people are just too much. It’s funny, but also makes me sigh with sadness…
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Yeah, whenever I get asked to speak on International Women’s Day there is always someone (usually a woman) in the audience who asks why there isn’t an International Men’s Day. I usually point out that that’s because every other day of the year is that day.
Actually, come to think of it, I haven’t been asked to speak on International Women’s Day for a few years now….could that be why?
There was a great line on Murphy Brown too, from years ago.
Murph (Candice Bergman) walks into the news room and sees all her male co-workers standing in a clump looking glum.
“What’s the matter, guys? Sick of earning more money for doing the same job?” She asks.
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God I love you.
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If you could see me right now, I am pink with pleasure – very girly.
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God I used to love Murphy Brown. There was nobody like her on tv for a young girl to emulate when going to a girls school that didn’t teach chemistry or physics but did teach sewing (compulsary). And with a mum who was brought up in the 60s but seemed to have missed the feminist movement entirely.
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I wouldn’t mind men earning more than me:
1. If I didn’t have to pay the same amount for expenses like food, petrol, gas, electricity, rent etc;
2. If I didn’t have to pay MORE for clothes and services (eg haircuts – and my hair is very short; drycleaning – why does one dress cost more to dryclean than 5 shirts?);
3. If men suffered waxing. Because I’m just a little bit sadistic.
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1) How is this unfair? Men don’t get paid more than you based on gender. It’s based on your job. Don’t like your pay? Find a new job! What do you think we (as men) do?
2) You’re obviously shopping in the wrong places. Men pay less for clothes and services because we don’t mind going to cheaper/discount stores etc.
3) That’s a woman’s personal choice.
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1. It’s not always based on the job. Incidentally, I happen to earn more than most men I know, because I gave up a career I loved for a job that paid better. So there, I DID do exactly as you suggested. (And I still love my job. Most times).
2. No, I am not. Many women shop in how much they ‘save’ instead of how much they ‘spend’ – it is a high. Go figure. However, with a higher salary comes a higher expectation of looking the part. However, men’s shirts will always cost less than women’s shirts. EG – Herringbone (randomly selected retailer with online store to check prices):
Men’s shirt (slim, first one in menu) = $189.
Women’s shirt (again, first one in menu) = $219
And I still don’t know why drycleaning for ONE dress is more than drycleaning FIVE shirts.
3. I’m still a little sadistic.
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“Two thirds of the 800 million people worldwide who lack basic literacy skills are women. Globally 1 in 3 women and girls experience physical and sexual violence with rates as high as 2 in 3 in some Pacific countries. Australian women still earn, on average, 18 per cent less than Australian men in the workplace.”
The literacy is a personal problem. There’s nothing stopping women from learning to read, certainly not men.
Your violence rates, do they take into account *unreported* incidents? What man (boy or adult) wants to admit to being sexually or physically abused by a woman? Not to mention, the taboo on “being abused by a women is shameful to a man” has been propagated by women for quite a long time, mostly to put men down.
“Yes, some men are abused by female partners. But the vast majority of victims of domestic violence (to pick one example) are overwhelmingly women and children.”
Again, including unreported? Also, you didn’t have to repeat this twice. It’s almost like you ran out of other arguments…
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Are you serious about the literacy thing??? Worldwide education for girls is just not taken seriously and some girls are pulled out of school before achieving literacy to be married off or work at the family home. If it comes down to a choice between a son and a daughter being educated, quite often the son will be educated. Fortunately it isn’t the case here, but some girls (and boys) here still fail to achieve functional literacy due to a number of factors, which include the personal problems. Choice usually isn’t among those.
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I was talking about Australia, US, UK, etc. Other countries with low literacy among women are because of cultural or religious reasons. Who are you to judge them? Muslim women have made great steps forward, and I applaud that. If there have been no changes, however, then they aren’t trying hard enough.
I also never said it was a choice. I said it was a personal problem.
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Ryan, please go and stay in an Australian Aboriginal community and then tell me that literacy problems in Australia are personal and that there is nothing stopping women from learning to read.
I value men’s rights highly whether they be gay, straight, white, Aboriginal, rich or poor and anything in between, because I do believe there are some harsh disadvantages for men (eg. access to kids re: family law courts). However, to say that literacy rates are a ‘personal’ problem and nothing stands in the way in Australia must mean you are completely forgetting the Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders communities. Because literacy rates within these communities are crap, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with not wanting to learn. Out side forces are largely to blame.
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Well your opening paragraph in quotes cited international stats so I wrote about international literacy. Your response says I’m judging them (which I’m not) and then states “if there have been no changes made, then they aren’t trying hard enough” WTF? Judgmental much. Neither of us know the personal struggles people overseas, or even here have to achieve literacy. As for personal problems, do you condemn those with learning problems, dyslexia, the family environment etc? Why don’t you explain your idea of personal problems.
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@Ryan
If you honestly think that more women abuse men than men abuse women and that being illiterate is a “personal choice” then nothing anyone says, statistics raised, studies shown or common sense presented is going to change your mind.
I feel sorry for you.
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This is just great Rick. I really enjoy your writing.
It needs to be published on http://www.thepunch.com.au although you would most certainly be under attack from all the poor oppressed white men that lurk around there.
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Actually, even I find the Punch too nasty to participate in. Rick – unless you want to be eaten alive by white, women hating bigots – I would not publish this there!! This is their pet topic!
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Yes, the comments on the Punch make me want to lock myself in a room and never come back. Having said that, I don’t mind being attacked if I’m confident in the position I’m taking. Which I am.
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Noooo! The Punch is a terrifying, TERRIFYING place!
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It would probably engender 1000+ comments, most of them nasty. I wonder if any of their readers have strayed over here for this one….
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I completely agree with the ridiculousness of the sentiment that granting rights means taking them away from others, and the whole ‘rights as an exhaustible supply’ thing. And the men who seriously think that gender equality or gay marriage or whatever is going to ‘oppress’ them or take away their rights are doing a commendable job of advertising their own idiocy and egocentricity.
But, not too sure I’m up on the general “white hetero men, shut up, you have it easy – yes, you have problems but they’re not as bad as the problems for women or gays” angle. Everybody in the world except the absolute most oppressed person is more privileged than someone, and living in a country as rich as Australia, we’re pretty much as the top no matter what – compared to millions, we are winning. Whether we are female, gay, indigenous, religious/atheistic, whatever. Just by living in Australia, even if a person is a homeless, transgender, disabled, gay, poor, indigenous Muslim -they are still winning compared to a great number of people.
***WARNING – graphic and upsetting description***
I came across a photo circulating on my facebook of a half-starved victim of the Somalian famine, looking down into a shallow grave, at body of her baby. Both of them are skin and bones. In amongst a sea of photos of my friend’s smiling, chubby babies, here was one that was so small, so starved.. it looked like a baby-shaped balloon, deflated. Imagining how that mother must have felt watching that happen to her baby.. it’s heartbreaking.
We are all winning compared to that tragic woman. She is oppressed and a victim of injustice and inhumanity, in a way that none of us will ever experience. However, the fact that she (and millions other like her) exist does not automatically render other injustices meaningless.
- It’s still wrong if employers automatically throw out resumes with Indian-sounding last names.
- It’s still wrong if women are blamed for their own sexual assault.
- It’s still wrong that mental illness treatment is mostly out of reach for people who need it most.
- It’s still wrong that indigenous health statistics are so far below national average.
- It’s still wrong that the decision to remain childfree is still publicly shamed. – It’s still wrong that marriage isn’t something that *any* two consenting adults can enter into, regardless of what’s in their pants.
None of these are on par with the unimaginable, insurmountable inequality and injustice faced by the woman in Somalia, but that doesn’t mean they are not real injustices that need to be taken seriously.
But just one example – it’s also wrong that these golden ‘white hetero males’ regularly find themselves denied custody of their own children, primarily for being male.
If the above problems are not automatically invalidated by the oppression suffered by the woman in Somalia, injustices or inequalities faced by white hetero males should not be invalidated by the fact that women or gays have it worse, either. Because really, they may have it worse, but there is not a person in this country who cannot say that they have it pretty sweet compared to others in the world.
In a twisted way.. you could almost argue that *this article* oppresses white, hetero men – by downplaying and dismissing any inequality or injustice that is put upon them. Dangerous territory!
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All we are asking is that white, straight, men acknowkedge their privilege and stop trying to undermine women’s issues by cutting in and trying ot monopolise the situation and turn it into something about them.
For example, the MR activists I’ve encountered are shocking people. The Happy Misogynist anyone? As if we need people claiming misogyny like their proud of it or something.
Then you have the MRAs who comment about articles on violence against women, completely taking away from the seriousness of the issue (which is recognised internationally as a human rights issue by both amnesty international and the united nations). I was reading an article about pregnancy the other day and how it can be very trauamtic for some women and one MRA decided to come in and say something along the lines of “giving birth is nothing compared to going to war! all we ask of women is to give birth, it’s nothing!”
Until MRAs start their own websites, and discuss their own issues away from women’s issues, just as women do, then I will take them seriously. I can’t take MR activism as nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt at shutting women up- if they keep butting into tragic stories of women and trying to make it about them.
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Seriously – you are doing exactly the same thing.
If you have a post about domestic violence and somebody dares to raise the idea that it happens to men too, they are immediately told they are taking away focus from the *real* issue – that men talking about injustices committed against them is irrelevant because 99% happens to women. Sound familiar, say, to some straight men saying that gay marriage doesn’t matter because it’s the minority?
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Hi my friends. Sorry I haven’t been rwntiig to you lately. Been quite busy. 2 weeks a go I went up to Timaru on friday at about 2 o’clock to sunday afternoon to see my little niece Ruby whos now two years old. Not very good after that though because on that Friday before we went to Timaru I did something very serious at 9:30. so I couldn’t go to school for two days. Yesterday on the 22 April. I practiced casting and reeling in the line at the Clutha river with a fake tiny fish on the end (it looked like a real fish) but we didn’t catch any. Oh well you just luck to catch a fish. Do you know if there are any other kids with aspergers syndrome as well in South Otago or Dunedin.It was nice talking to you again.From your friend Jack
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Wow there must be something in the water today. A similar debate about gender bias (in the reviewing and awarding of women’s (crime) fiction) was started today in a blog by Tara Moss. She was bushwacked by one of the white men (not sure about the straight) who labelled her facts as “privileged whining”. Check it out for a similar thread to this one by the fabulous Rick. Go you!
http://blog.taramoss.com/index.php?itemid=648
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Oh gosh Rick. I can’t believe you had to spell it out like that. I can tell how you felt you had to cover every counter argument in this discussion to avoid future citisism. It’s a sad world we live in, when articles like this need to be written in the first place, but I’m so glad you did.
Unfortunately the poor opressed men will probably find a new silly argument, won’t they.
Nice job!
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I don’t disagree, but wonder what you make of the fact (it is a true statistic!) that women in the developed world live on average 2-5 yrs longer than men. Men commit suicide more often than women; men are more likely to develop schizophrenia; men are the only people to die of prostate cancer (in huge numbers) but this does not rival the media attention that breast cancer gets. Girls are now outperforming boys at school and outnumber boys in some competitive uni degrees such as medicine.
Interesting, no?
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More women need to commit suicide to close the gap!
He’s talking about equality, not general differential statistics between men and women. Statistics on life expectancy, suicide and mental illness are irrelevant.
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No they are not irrelevant. Rick quoted plenty of statistics in his article. By your logic we could aim for more sexual assault of men. If women were dying 5 yrs before men on average – I think we would hear about it and want answers and a solution.
I just think we should be careful about making broad statements like this – and not stopping to remember the ways in which we are blessed is dangerous. Women may never achieve completely equal pay; but they are so lucky to be able to carry children and to legitimately choose to stay home and bring them up. Men are not so equal in this regard.
Like another reply said – all of us with access to this website are more privileged than many other of the world’s citiziens. On an individual basis however the level of privilege varies widely within each group of people. To say that the rights of one entire group are less important, or their issues less meaningful, is not really fair. A white, straight boy born in some suburbs of Glasgow has a life expectancy of 57. He’s more likely to die of preventable disease, to be unemployed, to abuse substances and to have limited access to his children. Indians, gays and women in the next suburb may live 20-25 yrs longer and earn much more money. Is that fair or equal? Should we deny these issues because there are other white men who are better off?
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“they are so lucky to be able to carry children and to legitimately choose to stay home and bring them up”
But this also means they’re the ones who suffer from post-natal depression & who die in childbirth. It’s swings & roundabouts.
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Women live longer than men, and more male babies are born but more female babies survive, because we are actually genetically closer to the norm. All fetus’s begin as XX (that’s why men have residual nipples) and only become male when the Y chromosome switches on – variation in nature often means more chance of weakness.
But this is a relatively recent phenomenon for adult women. Women have only lived longer than men for about a century or so, due to improvements in hygiene and medical care around pregnancy and birth. In 14th century Europe, for example, women had an average life expectancy of 30, men 50. There is a reason there are so many stepmothers in fairy tales.
And, no, nobody said boo about women dying like flies in childbirth. Indeed, the churches often resisted any advances in pain relief and medical intervention in childbirth (and, indeed, contraceptive information for women warned of death if they had another child) because they saw her suffering as God’s punishment of Eve for the original sin of tempting Adam.
Of course, it is possible to empathise with individual men who suffer and are underprivileged but the women who suffer along with them have an added burden of intrinsic lack of opportunity because of their gender that men simply do not have to deal with.
It seems to me that women have always tended to be much nicer and more empathic to men than the other way around, so it is lovely to hear Rick’s eminently sensible and supportive point of view. Gives me real hope taht the sex we don’t refer to as the “fairer” one is actually getting that way.
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I really enjoyed reading your savvy response Jane.
Particularly “it is possible to empathise with individual men who suffer and are underprivileged but the women who suffer along with them have an added burden of intrinsic lack of opportunity because of their gender that men simply do not have to deal with.”
Agree. Wholeheartedly.
What’s more it’s another ‘subclass’ that evolves from this as well – life’s ‘rungs on society’s ladder’ creates more gender disparity – and in an already biased narrative, is continually maintained by that feedloop back through an acculturated bias. Class is a whole other backstory/downward supressive force.
It’s disheartening for women dealing with gender+class issues. And they know it exists! They feel it from all and sundry! Women whose lives are further compounded, in this or any society, by gender+class+race – they’re my (cognitive) driving force when I need a pillar of hope dealing with the bullshit here as a white single 40+ divorced childless female… See how many buttons that presses… (there’s some penultimate [silent] shame-blame-games going on here, mostly from those who can’t cope with their own fears and insecurities about whatever’s running ‘for’ them at that moment). But I digress. Would be incredible for women – all women – to be able to stand firmly on their life paths, without being validated through biological, marital, maternal, racial, age, economic constructs… Only a fair and secure society will provide this.
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one of the reasons women may live longer than men is that they are more likely to go to the doctors on a regular basis. also, there is a lot of media attention for breast cancer because women get out there and organise fundraisers and other such activities to draw attention to it.
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Yes, they are certainly among the reasons. Men also have higher cardiovascular risk and engage in more dangerous activities.
Conversely, there are also valid reasons why women earn less. They interrupt their careers with child rearing which is often enough to prevent ascension to the highest positions. Women also limit their careers by working part time. There is nothing wrong with that, and being able to stay home and bring up your children is wonderful – its a privilege most white men do not have.
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Bringing up children is not a “privilege” in the context of what Rick is talking about. Men are also free to bring up children too.
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I have yet to see or hear men activate as long and as loudly for the privilege to stay home and raise the children as women have for the right to work. I don’t think that men generally want this at all .. I’m sure there is a very long story that explains why they don’t want it but the end result is the same .. they don’t push for it.
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Heart disease is the biggest killer of women. What’s that about men + cardio diseases?
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You’re right, men are the only ones to die from prostate cancer which has been slow to get the attention it deserves (thanks Movember). Just as women are the only ones to get uterine, ovarian and cervical cancer and as you’d know, uterine and ovarian cancer often get picked up too late.
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OMG Rick. Thanks. So. Much. YES!
I love it when other people say what I know, yet it annoys me that I don’t know how to say it. But that’s my problem, not anyone else’s
On the topic of the fight for (gender) equality, and the “what about the MENZ!” argument, please read and bookmark this article for future reference:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/tackling-the-unfinished-business-of-equal-pay-for-men-and-women-20091126-jujs.html
PS: No, I am not Jessica Irvine, nor do I know Jessica Irvine personally
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Women are starting to earn more than men, see
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html
and
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-2364675.html
You are not the oppressed. You just disgusted me. Feminism turned you into a bunch of liars desperately clinging to your victim status.
The MRM is not what the writer presents. Our critics have always tried to use ridicule and shame to silence us. It would not work. Due to feminism men face widespread discrimination in health care, family courts, government assistance, education etc.
We will not be quiet and we will not be nice.
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There is no danger of you being seen as ‘nice’!
That’ liar’ call is just delightful. Ta.
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Thankyou for writing this!
I had a heated argument in my politics class last semester over this. We were discussing whether gender equality had been achieved in politics upon the election of Gillard’s government. Nice segue to how women are still not equal to men (especially in employment..) and one guy actually had the hide to complain about women getting elected into CEO positions ‘because it takes the roles of men’.
That we’re better today now that women can vote, so why bother making sure they achieve equal employment opportunities?
He argued it is perfectly reasonable for a woman not to be hired on the reasoning that she MAY one day fall pregnant and ask for time off.
Not only did his ramblings make me extremely angry, but they made me worry that people still think in this way.
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Oh boy.
One female commenter on this site said something similar about women “taking” men’s roles and leaving them all confused and demasculated when women mow lawns and stuff!
How well did the “taking roles of men” thing go down in class? Was the chap slightly suicidal?
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Ironically, despite this being a university class he was quite uneducated. Although he absolutely refused to acknowledge that the lack of women in executive positions was becuase of any glass ceiling (rather, his argument was that clearly women aren’t suited to the job), but he was fighting for their right later in the class for women to fight on the front line.
I’m still in disbelief about it all to be honest.
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Haha in one of my politics classes last year one of the ideologies studied was feminism and in the tute for that topic suddenly majority of the guys were missing… But one of the ones that was there said that women shouldn’t be in the military at all because they get their periods and didn’t want to get dirty like guys do- pretty sure he regretted saying that when he realized he was surrounded by 15 girls, 2 guys and our tutor who was also a women!
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Thank God someone had the balls to write this. Amen to you Rick.
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This is a truly wonderful article, well done Rick for writing it and Mia for publishing it.
The only thing I would change would be to say that Straight White Men are not oppressed unless they are of a low socio-economic status, have a disability or a mental illness (but that’s a bit long for you to write each time!). Because along with women, LGBT people and Indigenous people the disabled, mentally ill and those in a low socio-economic group don’t have equality; but I’m sure none of that is news to Rick.
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It has really scared me in the last few years how many people freak out when you talk about closing the gap in equality. Everyone falls back on flimsy ‘scientific evidence’ that we are all ‘hardwired’ and that any inequality that is experienced, be it by women, people of different races or those in the Gay community are just evidence of their natural inferiority.
I think the reason some of those straight white guys have such
a problem is because they take for granted the power they have and when it is challenged, they don’t like it. No one likes to have their power taken away even if they know intellectually they have it undeservingly.
I once got in a huge argument with my sisters boyfriend who was in the army. He was on of the ‘white men are the most oppressed group in society’ types. His argument was that if a woman or a man of another race goes for the same job as him because of equal opportunity laws that exist within the government, he will miss out. My response was ‘yes, your right, the Australian armed forces are just over run with indigenous women trying to
take jobs from white men’….
And alot of what the men’s right activists complain about are not the fault of feminists or civil rights activists. They are actually the fault of masculine culture. The problems that men have like higher rates of suicide,
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They all seem to fight on the equal opportunity laws don’t they?
It’s like there is a complete failure to understand that this legislation CORRECTS what should be happening anyway. It is not ‘stripping them of any of their rights’.
-sigh-
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I love the hard wired stuff. There is a “study” done on chimps that “proves” males are more promiscuous. Funny thing is that is only half the study read the rest and the truth is very very VERY different. But people believe what they want and sometimes i figure that its easier to walk away than fight but mostly i like to argue with actual facts not “stuff i read somewhere”
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Haha, yes, I hate the “Well *I’ve* heard [insert patently incorrect information here].”
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I in all seriousness was told that by an ex army guy that now that defence force no longer has the equal opportunity and sex discrimination exemptions that male soldiers wouldnt have to shave or cut their hair because if they did it would be discrimination because female soldiers don’t have to shave or have short hair. OMFG… Get your hand off it… Now that was faux oppressed!!!
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Love the image of the Australian army consisting mainly of Indigenous women… Poor opressed white man…
Thumbs up!
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Love this article Rick!
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Great article. I do think there is one particular area where women need to realise that discussing men’s issues doesn’t take away from their own, and that’s domestic violence. Just mention the fact that men can also experience domestic violence, and women scoff, but I don’t know a straight man who hasn’t been punched, slapped, scratched, kicked or had things thrown at them by a female partner. I don’t know straight man who hasn’t experienced emotional abuse by a female partner. But when it happens to men, the general consensus is they had it coming or they’re grown men, they can look after themselves.
I have been in three abusive relationships. In all three, I was the physically stronger person. If I had of fought back, I would have won quite easily. Domestic violence is about so much more than strength and size. Just because men are usually bigger and stronger than their female partners doesn’t mean they can’t be the victim. Especially as we now recognise emotional abuse as domestic violence.
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This woman does not scoff.
Family violence is no joke and *anyone* can be a perpetrator.
*Anyone* can be made a victim.
However, I don’t like the way you have inferred that most(?) straight men are victims of their wives tongues or fists.
Most men and most women do not abuse their partners or their children. Not physically and not emotionally.
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Agreed, agreed, agreed. It’s just as insulting to women as the opposite is to men.
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It wasn’t my intention to infer that. I also said nothing about the domestic violence being perpetrated by these guys wives. Just that over the course of their lives, every guy I know (I’m talking friends, family, close co-workers) has experienced domestic violence. Which, despite being anecdotal, would suggest that men being the victims of domestic violence isn’t the abberation it’s often made out to be on this site.
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noone’s saying that men are not the victims of domestic violence. However, I suggest you look up statistics on the seriousness of male perpetrated DV. You will find some appalling statistics on female death. Yes, some women have murdered their husbands but the murder of women by men, and serious injury by men, is seriously much higher than that of women towards men.
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I don’t know what sort of women you know, but we’re not all like that.
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My favourite is ‘we have more important issues to worry about, like asylum seekers coming here and taking our privileges’!
WTF?? Did some moron actually write that?
Great article Rick!
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BLESS THIS POST
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agree with you Rick! love it
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Great article Rick! Well said.
I watched a very informative, funny and entertaining debate on the weekend called “Men are Finished”
You can watch it here. http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/men-are-finished/#dm-col-a
**SPOILER ALERT BELOW** (since most people wont have the time to watch this 2 hour debate)
The team on the side of “Men are Finished” argued it so well that they won by a massive margin and changed most of the audience perspective.
One of the best arguments they had on their side had to do with hard statistics of women getting educated and how it is fundamentally shaping both developed and developing nations.
Women make up nearly 60% of all college enrolments in the USA, and at an even higher proportion in community colleges. This is such a problem that they have had to institute affirmative action for males to try to keep the ratios 50/50 in the really high-end expensive colleges. This is so that the college can make it more appealing for future students (both male and female) to want to apply.
The side effect of this however is that females are trying even harder to get in to college. They have to get even better grades than they did before yet often still miss out a place because of these quotas that have been introduced. See this article written by a dean of admissions of a very prestigious college in apologising publicly for making it so difficult for females to get in http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html.
Meanwhile the males don’t seem to care. They still struggle in a classroom environment and they don’t have to try as hard to get in to college because a place has been set aside for them. This means it exaggerates the problem because it doesn’t seem to encourage the boys to want to improve their grades, it only encourages the girls.
And this was the crux of the argument of the side representing “Men are Finished” – females through a combination of societal grooming and/or biology have adapted themselves to the new emerging economy much better than men have. They tend to be much more flexible and willing to change themselves to situations than men generally are.
It hasn’t yet been fully realised but just imagine how the future is now shaping up to look like.
We live in a changing economy where manufacturing jobs (that have been the domain of men) are going to be replaced by technology. And when I mean technology i don’t just mean Information Technology which incidentally requires an education. And its not hard labour so a mans strength amd build becomes less of a factor. The other side of this revolution is the development of the technology that is being developed right now in Europe for machines to build at a large scale. This means potentially buildings and other large objects will be built by machines not labourers in the not too distant future. These are just 2 random examples that will redefine what it means to be a male in the future. The “blokey” culture in Australia may be under massive threat if capitalism gets its way.
http://www.theage.com.au/executive-style/management/a-blokey-culture-that-costs-the-country-billions-in-wasted-resources-201110
And think about this – how many occupations are women now participating in at high levels that were occupations always considered the domain of men – military, medicine, sciences, etc, etc. Now think of the occupations that have been considered female – teaching, nursing, beauty related industries, personal assistants, etc. Straight men haven’t exactly been rushing in to even out the numbers.
The trends are dictating that if women continue on as they are, not only will they match their male counterparts but they will surpass them in terms of average earning capacity. Women from the ages of 20-30 in the USA are already out earning men in the same age bracket. I suspect a similar trend is emerging in Australia.
Maybe the Faux Oppressed have a point albeit its a bit premature to cry oppression just yet. But to them I say, well maybe you need to look at what women are doing right and learn from them for a change.
The reason women have done so well in the work force and made major strides in such a short period of time (30 – 50 years) is because we learnt from the men running the show. The side debating for the premise that “Men are Finished” argued that women have learned competitiveness, directness, aggressiveness and how to play the game of making money from men. Men (in general) are not very willing to learn and adapt to what qualities women often bring to the table like a sense of collaboration, flexibility, emotion, compassion and empathy.
Of course everything I have said above is in gross generalisations but I think it is interesting to note that the tide might just be turning much faster than we think towards greater equality.
We just have to be careful not to do to men what they did to women if it ever does happen.
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Having a debate called ‘Men are Finished’ in itself demonstrates the issues at play here – can you imagine having a debate the other way around, EVER? Can you imagine the outcry on here if there was?
Dont ever look me in the eye and say the gender debate is a level playing field, and I feel you demonstrate the same double standards Rick / MM. This is exactly why men fail to have a voice on gender issues that matter to them. And the reason some men make the comments they do on here.
Thank god some opposing perspective gets through in here sometimes.
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I respect your opinion Bruce.
I actually look at things in the same way as you in a lot of ways. I always think with anything I view as unfair, if it was a man would be it sexist?
“Men Are Finished” is a title they have chosen on purpose to get people to watch. A marketing technique. Not dissimilar to the headlines of news stories and magazines, designed to provoke interest. Its also what they do in debates, purposely choose a topic that is polarising as to get the best arguments out of the debate.
I wouldn’t be offended by the title Are Women Finished. I would just find it a bit weird because its not topical. I could however list many many titles I find offensive as a woman (the name of most porn films would have to top the list) but I suspect you are not really that interested in that.
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the relationships are halriious. ichigo and rukia love each other, but rukia and renji are also in love with each other and orihime’s in love with ichigo, althought ouriyu is in love with orihime. not to mention that that female mod soul is in love with ichigo too. I mean seriously, you’d think this was a romance show, not an action show.
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Just wrote a kick-ass rebuttal of a comment that seems to have been removed…I made some good points…here’s some edited highlights:
We all need to acknowledge inequalities and social constraints against all demographics, including straight white men…but we also need to acknowledge that any inequalities and social constraints suffered by straight white men are suffered by a group whose base-level is already higher than other demographics…
I am a straight white male – I suffer from privilege…but I also suffer from social expectations and social restrictions…for example, as a man who chooses to look the way I do, I doubt I’d ever be elected to office…nor could I serve in the armed forces looking as I do…but that’s my choice…and I have that choice because I suffer from privilege…
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I think you might ask an unemployed working class man that has been divorsed whether his base level of privilage is higher than other demographics. On what measurements? Here lies another issue, we seem on MM to only ever measure advantage and disadvantage on narrow parameters that support the notion that women get a rough deal.
This unemployed divorsed gent I use as my example will live a much worse, unhealthy life, be much more likely to suffer mental issues and substance abuse problems, will most likely be removed from his children for the most part, and die at a much younger age for the privilige.
See, it isnt as black and white as you (or Rick) make it.
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Compare him directly to the unemployed, divorced woman. She most likely will end up with the kids, yes, but also be poorer for a large part of her life for it. The kids will then suffer disadvantage as a follow on effect. The unhealthy life is one thing he has control over and we all know it.
PS, if he were to remain married, he would live longer than his single/divorced counterpart, whereas the single/divorced woman lives longer than the married woman. Why???
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My middle class divorce ex husband kept the house, the car and all the assets. seven years on he has still not paid one single cent in child support and hides is earning and assets from the tax dept. Post divorce, he owns two houses and drives around in a BMW . Post divorce I put my self through my 3rd degree, whilst working full time and raising a baby. I have a massive HECs debt, and bare all of the costs associated with raising a child.
I have worked extremely hard as a single working mother and am in a fortunate position. On the surface you would look at me and say priviliged educated white woman, and you would be right. You look at my ex husband, and I don’t think he has got it tough. I don’t personally know any woman ( or man) who is financially better of post
divorce , but statistically speaking after five years men are in the same if not better financial position, whilst women are still worse off after a divorce.
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I said something quite similar JJ, but it seems that comment is gone too…
FreeHumanBeing, if you see this, please don’t go! I hope if you read my comment you didn’t take it as an attack on you – I agreed wholeheartedly with everything you’d said, but thought only that perhaps you’d missed the tone of Rick’s post.
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Can I ask Rick why that set of posts from FreeHumanBeing were deleted? Is censorship on here so strict that when someone disagrees, they get deleted? A little unfair I believe.
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They weren’t by anyone here.
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Yeah, that was the comment I was replying to…it was an interesting comment, and Free Human Being made a lot of valid points, but missed the point of Rick’s article, which is that statements of inequality from women, gays etc shouldn’t be dismissed simply because straight white males suffer them as well…
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And I again ask, who is dismissing them. To bring up mens issues does not immediately suggest women dont have issues as well.
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Free Human Being may have deleted them himself.
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Thanks to Mamamia for the times the staff have let me post here, though not always in agreeance with many of the views, I always try to articulate in a way that I felt at least made points with logic and add links when allowed.
This is the third post of mine that makes several serious points that has been removed, all the while in my time contributing to the discussions here, I have been called many many (many) names, most of which have always been allowed to stand.
Several links I have left (even broken or nofollowed) have been highly respected studies, but I can’t help but feel some people do not want discourse or any debate.
Rick – I really enjoy your ability to interact and diffuse tense responses, it’s frequently a pleasure to see your tempered responses.
John – I enjoy your POViews and don’t agree with half of them, but you take the time to put thought in the absence of arrogance and that’s top notch mate.
Thanks to all the people that didn’t agree with me, but respected the right of people to disagree and still converse.
Cheers to all
FHB
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You’re a privilege denying person FHB, I would be very glad to see you go.
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Oh don’t go, FHB! I like your posts, even if I don’t agree with and/or take issue with them.
And anon – this “You’re a privilege denying person FHB, I would be very glad to see you go.”.
Really? Very brave.
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They haven’t been deleted by anyone from MM. Sometimes, people choose to delete their own comments after they leave them.
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FHB, I think I am with you, after probably a year of trying to contribute, I am out of here too.
FHB, I respected you and your opions, and listened, as I did to all on here.
I too had many posts (that were not half as offensive as the replys generated) deleted. I am sick of trying to contribute and being kicked in the guts this way. I am sick of the hypocrisy, the talk of being ‘all inclusive’ yet choosing to only hear part of the story people have to tell. The clear bias as to what is deemed offensive depending upon what side of the fence you sit on.
You got what you wanted guys, got rid of us. Enjoy seeing the world through your one eye.
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Just got my reply deleted as well. You can’t have a discussion if you don’t want to even hear the other side.
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Hi Free Human Parent,
I agree with everything you’ve said here – however, I think maybe you missed the point of Rick’s post. Well, not THE point, but the feel of the piece.
I think what Rick was saying (well, this is how I took it) is that we ALL need to be aware of our privileges. For example, I know, that as a white, late-20s woman from a working class/lower middle class (not sure how to describe that… my mum was a librarian and my dad a social worker), university educated woman living in Sydney, I have far FAR more privileges that say, an uneducated, born-into poverty 20-somethings Aboriginal, straight man living in rural Northern Territory. I also have far more privilege than a , straight man of my age living in the outskirts of urban Melbourne who was born into relative poverty and through abuse etc had spiralled further into poverty.
I do also realise that I have LESS privilege than a white, 20-something straight man who was born into a long generation of wealth who received a top-private school education (a school which perhaps, due to it’s wealth, was able to pay more teachers and provide them with more training and thus there were much smaller class sizes and each student got more one on one time), had great personal connnectgions associated with his wealth and upbringing that allowed him a spot in a top profession almost before he’d finished his degree.
I think though, Rick’s point was that in a very basic sense, a basic ‘who gets what options’ begins with white, straight men. Yes, there are certainly many situations where white, straight men are disadvantaged, but in an overall sense, they are at the top of the heap.
I am guessing from your impassioned post that you are in the same camp as me – someone who gets equally as enraged about the societal pressures that are placed on men and boys to be ‘manly men’, providers and never show emotions besides anger or happiness. I am usually more inclined to go ‘well hang on a minute, that’s a generalisation!’ when I see nappy commercials which depict Dads as semi-intelligent people who don’t know which end of the baby it’s bum is, partly because my Dad was often the parent who cooked the most and did out pigtails for school, and partly because I feel there are plenty of other people in the world crying out the unfairness of the generalisation that the Mum in nappy commercials knows all about the new and improved Huggies because she just sits at home with the baby and has no aspirations of her own besides being a mother.
So my point is… I totally get (and agree with) much of your anger, but I don’t think that it’s quite what Rick meant.
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Amy, I think if you read Ricks tone in the article that his colours are clearly on show. I dont think he is an impartial observer. He clearly sees the good ol’ ‘white hetro male’ as the cause of all ills, and this comes out clearly in his tone and language. God, surely he could find 10 times as many examples of passionate women on here that overstate their problems. Why doesnt he site them in his ditribe. Why is it so specifically targeted. .
Something also to do with keeping the MM machine that pays his pay cheques happy maybe?
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I just love you Rick. I really do. I nodded vigourously all the way through this post, and I often do when I’m reading your stuff. Yay you!
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Thank you
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Rick, I was wondering where your deliniation of who is deemed oppressed begins and ends? You, for instance, are white and male. Does that mean, for instance, that you are less oppressed than a black male hetrosexual? Each of you have ’2 boxes ticked’ according to your criteria.
What about we add some other measurements into the mix. How about socio-economic standing and mental health. Ok, so now we have a low socio economic white hetro male with mental health issues. Is he more advantaged that you? He has all 3 boxes ticked, you only have 2, so you must be more disadvantaged.
Can you see how silly this game is. You seem determined to put everyone into a box for te sake of your argument, which seems to be the polar opposite of what you espouse to stand for, both personally and MM as a site in general.
Every comment you make about men commenting on this site about their isues can just as equally be directed at any one on here with passion about the issues that matter for them. god, just look at you, whatever the blog topic, you manage to bring it back to gay rights. The fact that men complain that mens rights are not being addressed by government does not by extention mean that they are saying womens rights are less important. And here is where you have it wrong.
I think you are being extremely closed minded in singling out only one type of contributor on here. Men have every right, as do women, to comment on issues that matter to them, or to suggest that issues that matter to them are being overlooked, either on here or by government.
I think you need to extend your open mindedness just one cog further to include all Rick. The world is not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be.
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Totally valid points about mental health and class issues which I also covered in comments below. I’m a fan of equality and this post isn’t about ALL men. It’s about the minority who think their rights are being stolen or taken away or eroded because we’re talking about how to make things fairer for ALL. I really don’t see how that makes this the ‘polar opposite’ of what I stand for. It’s exactly what I stand for.
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I am sorry Rick, I disagree with respect, as you are choosing to interpret legitimate concerns and comments from men (that are no way more unreasonable than the comments from many women in here), as being suggestive that men have more issues than women. I think here is where you are reading WAY too much into things. the same could be read into comments from countless women on MM.
I re read that Julia post, and the underlying theme is that an elected Prime Minister and government should watch out for all, yet a goverment that already has a minister for womens affairs pays scant attention to gender specific mens issues, such as suicide, mental illness, homelessness, family law etc.
You almost never hear the goverment addressing specific mens issues. You seem to think this is because they dont even exist.
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Mental illness, homelessness, suicide, and family law are not specifically men’s issues. Don’t be silly.
Sure, there is some prejudice against men in family court – as a flipside of the perception that women should be in the home, looking after the children, and not in the workplace earning equal wages. Sure, more men than women commit suicide – although more women than men suffer mental illness. But they are issues that affect so few people that a minister would not have a full portfolio’s workload, and what that minister would probably find is that the issues around suicide and homelessness are about mental health rather than gender. There is already a portfolio for Mental Health.
But one quarter of Australian women are subjected to sexual violence specifically because of their gender. That is a shitload of people. Australian women earn millions and millions of dollars less than men do specifically because they are women.
Maybe when women are not perceived as being designed for caregiving, they will not be perceived as the only appropriate caregivers in family courts. Maybe when we stop blaming rape victims for their assaults, we will be able to help men who are unable to speak out about their sexual assaults. And maybe when we lose this ‘battle of the sexes’ mentality, we can solve problems together as human beings.
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I don’t have the time to go through this line by line so: read the comments in the Gillard piece, that’s where I took these arguments from.
Men die earlier? They also on average live unhealthier lives (alcohol consumption, smoking etc). Society can’t control what diseases you get necessarily so that’s just awful on a medical front in terms of major diseases. As for anecdotal evidence, I’m sure there are examples of terrible treatment on both sides of the fence. But across the world (not JUST western society) women are still not equal. Not are LGBTQs or Indigenous folk. This isn’t just a debate about the gender divide, you know.
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and married men live longer. married women… not so much.
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“Society can’t control what diseases you get necessarily so that’s just awful on a medical front in terms of major diseases”
But, Rick – You believe in social justice and social engineering don’t you? Billions of dollars are spend on the products of people’s volitions, so why shouldn’t it be expected that such contributions be important?
The world vs west argument is completely different, you were arguing about Australian men complaining about their problems and I’m showing you real problems that men have.
Feminism is 50 years plus old with millions of followers and Men’s rights is a couple of years old with barely a fraction, but it is growing for a reason. There are issues that men have that get no airtime and many of them would be completely unacceptable if women were the sole victim of them.
If women made up 94% of deaths, the’d be 10 commissions and a death gap day. Men are clearly, irrefutably more disposable.
I don’t see any men asking to take away rights from women, I can’t find any examples other than religious men AND women who oppose abortion. I can guarantee you if there were talks of a ministry for men’s health – There’d be thousands of protests.
In fact I can prove it.
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Love this rick! Well done.
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“Equality isn’t a question of Robin Hood economics. We don’t have to take any rights to grant new ones. That’s the beauty of it.”
What a great way of putting it
Thanks Rick, love your articles!
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I agree with your argument Rick in regards to people with lots of rights constantly complaining that they have none, but I’m constantly baffled on the equality issue. I mean, my husband might have loved to have carried our daughter for nine months, or to breastfeed her, but he can’t. I may have loved to go out drinking with our friends while he stayed home and ate an entire pizza while watching the royal wedding, but that wasn’t possible as I was five months pregnant. My point is that even if we do attain equal rights, we will never actually be equal, and whether we like it or not these basic physical and emotional differences will transcend every aspect of our lives, including the workplace. It might suck if you want to “have it all”, but none of us can have it all, including men who will never know what it is to grow and give birth to a tiny human – something pretty amazing us women have to cherish.
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Oh! Well yes, I don’t request or require a uterus! I mean equal in the eyes of the law, in common society (pay in the workplace, opportunity to educate yadda yadda).
I think that’s a bit of a red herring. I’ll (probably) never have a Ferrari but I still want to drive!
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Haha but with your journalistic prowess you just might!
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Having access to equal rights, opportunities and choices is not the same thing as viewing everybody as ‘the same’.
And, regardless of opportunity no-one will ever “have it all”. Although, some people will be so happy with their lives that they may (wonderfully) feel as though they have it all.
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That’s something like what I said earlier. I like it
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God I love Louis CK!
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Thank you Rick for another wonderful, brilliantly articulated article.
I’m currently residing in Denmark (so mamamia is my little piece of connection to home) and the ‘faux oppressed’ would have a meltdown if they were here. It’s in the Danish DNA it seems, that fairness is for all and it doesn’t take away from another. Sure, there are glitches – nothing is perfect, but overall there is a ‘community first’ mindset and the majority here would be the first to say as an individual they do not suffer ‘oppression’ because another is receiving a benefit they are not. In fact their argument is that by creating a better community, everyone benefits as an individual. Hope we can reach a similar ideal sooner rather than later.
Keep up the fabulous work Rick.
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If only we could adopt more of the Scandinavian ways! They seem to be so far ahead in so many areas.
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Totally agree!! I lived in Norway & they have it good…infrastructure, healthcare & schooling is absolutely sorted. Seems we could learn a lot more from the Scandies besides sexual liberation!!