By JAMILA RIZVI
I’m rather good at being outraged.
Okay – enough with the false modesty – I’m exceptionally good at being outraged. Outrage is my default position. Outrage may not be my ACTUAL middle name but it’s certainly one of my nicknames. I enjoy writing about, talking about, heck, I occasionally indulge in a little interpretative dance about my outrage.
And feminist outrage is my specialty.
So you can imagine my angsty anticipation when I logged onto Twitter yesterday afternoon and saw that lingerie brand Kayser was being slammed for blaming rape victims. “WTF! Who did? How dare they? What’s wrong with the world! Damn the patriarchy. Let me at ‘em!” I thought.
Kayser Lingerie had sent this tweet out to their followers:
And this was followed by a lot of outrage. Outrage on Twitter. Outrage on Facebook. Outrage on Kayser’s website. And outrage on various online opinion and news websites.
Kayser have since explained that the offending tweet was written by an intern (a penis-owning-one) and the tweet was eventually deleted once the social media manager at Kayser figured out how to, you know, use social media.
I wasn’t impressed by the tweet. I really wasn’t.
Implicit in that sentence is a message that sex is entirely about men and what men want, with blatant disregard for the wishes of women. It also paints the woman as the passive character in the exchange. The movie watching and what follows is not about her and her choices; the consequences of her movie watching are pre-determined.
But… I wasn’t really outraged.
Why? Well, the impact that tweet was going to have just didn’t seem outrage-worthy. Because I seriously doubt the author realised or intended the message the tweet’s phrasing actually delivered. The author probably just meant that when you’re going on a date and it’s at a bloke’s house and you’re going to be sitting in close proximity and it’s going to be dark, said bloke is probably hoping you’ll take your top off at some stage during the evening and why not be wearing a pretty bra (ideally purchased from Kayser).
Sandy and Danny at the movies.
My mum taught me that much when I was 14 (well, not the pretty bra bit but the ‘boys will try something on and you should be prepared for that’ bit). And she certainly didn’t cause me any offense – so why should I get up in arms this time around?
The tweet was dumb. The tweet was ignorant. But in a country where one in five women experience sexual violence in their lifetimes, why are we bothering to get outraged about the semantics of some barely-out-of-his-teens intern at a clothing manufacturing company, when we could be channeling that outrage where it really matters?
I’m treading tentatively here. Partly because I’m worried that I haven’t switched my holiday brain off properly and that once work-brain kicks back in the outrage meter will go through the roof.
Moreover, Kayser have since announced they will be donating a percentage of their proceeds to White Ribbon Australia. That’s a direct result of the outrage generated – so surely it was a good thing? White Ribbon will use that money to make a real and meaningful difference in the attitudes of the community about violence against women.
And at a time in Australian politics where sexism and misogyny are finally getting the airtime they are due, do we actually hurt our cause by getting up in arms about the small stuff? Does that just give fodder to the other side of the sexism debate, to say we’re making something out of nothing? Should we be reserving our outrage for the bigger, more public, intentionally offensive stuff?
I’m confused. I don’t know what to think. And I don’t know where to put my outrage. What did you think of the tweet?
Comments
194 Comments so far
I have spent the best part of 15 years working in Aboriginal Communities across our country.
Every time I read something like this I am outraged that there is good money being spent on the time and skills of people everywhere and they’re being used to blah on about a completely meaningless sentence in the twitterverse.
Meanwhile tens of thousands of our own remain hungry, homeless or suffer unspeakable abuse. This is definitely the last time I lose 5 minutes of my life reading anything from this site. It just seems so trivial and detached from reality
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The assertion by a female that all a man wants if he invites her to watch a film at his home is sexist. To portray all men as sex obsessed and incapable of platonic relationships with woman Is sexest.
Should we be outraged that every man we know can be labeled as some kind of neanderthal with a mind only for sex and all anyone picks up on is the offense to woman?
This Tweet is offensive to men and woman. If you read this article and did not pick up on this that is sexist.
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Years ago, the Benneton brand got the cute idea that using shocking images in their ads would get people interested – but it was a clumsy idea.
This too is a clumsy idea – even though it has the ring of truth.
Should we be outraged ?………Yes, I believe we should.
Maybe not full-blown outrage but enough to clarify how wrong it is to tell women that they should submit to the expectations of men and purchase Kayser underwear for that occasion.
In other words – Kayser will happily accept the proceeds of such a fear-driven purchase.
Not that I expect Mamamia readers to remember, but I’ve written a fair bit about how fear is used by advertising companies to scare people, (mainly women I think,) into buying their products.
This is very “old-school” advertising (yes, very “MAD MEN”) and it’s a worry that the Kayser intern was encouraged enough to get that clumsy text into print.
If all men are encouraged from early childhood to have a kinder, more respectful, less entitled attitude towards women we’ll all benefit – including them.
What man wouldn’t want to be truly, genuinely loved and respected for who he is instead of feared for what he’ll do if he doesn’t get what he wants or expects ?
“Maintaining the rage” has a variety of applications and when it comes to female equality – there’s much to do yet.
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Suggest that you take a look at this
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/dangers-of-an-artificial-gender-war/story-e6frgd0x-1226552289063
What’s good for the Liberal gander apparently does not apply to a Labor goose if he is Ms Gillard’s BFF.
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If I’m reading the below correctly a female intern was the source of the tweet – right?
If so, and she is young it’s a sad window into her views.
But, frighteningly, perhaps it’s realistic.
Until boys are raised believing that they do not have a ‘right’ to anything to do with a woman’s body and stop cajoling young girls into ‘sexting’ and making them believe that oral isn’t sex etc etc – nothing is going to change.
Boys need to be raised to be men – and men, real men – respect women and don’t use physical and sexual violence to control them.
There are always going to be inherent differences between the sexes – and in most cases, men are always going to be physically stronger than women – so this rampant and continual reinforcement of attitudes and behaviours that are not acceptable needs to be addressed.
In homes and in schools.
It’s no longer good enough to say ‘boys will be boys’ and social media is only making it worse.
If you think this is unacceptable – actively teach your children, boys and girls that it’s wrong. Plain wrong.
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It’s pretty sad that every time some man does something wrong, people go on about how the society should raise it’s boys properly.
I’m a straight man that keeps his distance from women just because, but respects any around him like he would any man or any person in general.
As a part of the society, I am sick of people addressing my parents and telling them that they should raise their boys properly. My parents did a fine job at it. Blanket statements are pretty disappointing.
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It’s great that your parents raised you that way, but clearly we do have a society-wide problem with how boys are raised and socialised, given that violence against women is such an issue – and that that violence is almost always perpetrated by men.
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“Why are we bothering to get outraged about the semantics of some barely-out-of-his-teens intern at a clothing manufacturing company, when we could be channeling that outrage where it really matters?”
Ummm, because THIS IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS!!!! This outrage isn’t about a stupid tweet; rather, it’s a response to the disturbing attitude displayed by Kayser that is also so prevalent within our country – where women are “expected” to have sex with men and “a ‘no’ is a ‘yes’ with some convincing”…
When this attitude is so common throughout the male population of Australia (ESPECIALLY amongst the “barely-out-of-his-teens” age group, as they are the men of this country for the next 60 years or so…), it’s a real problem. Rape culture needs to be seriously addressed, not tossed aside as some nonsensical feminazi “sexism outrage”. Kayser’s tweet is a perfect example of the media that permeates rape culture, so yes, the outrage is 110% warranted.
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When this attitude is so common throughout the male population of Australia (ESPECIALLY amongst the “barely-out-of-his-teens” age group, as they are the men of this country for the next 60 years or so…), it’s a real problem.
I’m from the barely out of his teens age group. And I do not think that way. And i’m a man. And i do not think that way.
Blankety statement is blankety blanket. Generalizations must be so helpful in your movement and help you get the men on your side.Maybe refrain from blind assertions next time.
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If you don’t think that way, excellent. But Serena didn’t say every single just out of his teens man thinks that way. She said it was common. It is. Taking it personally is personally personal.
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There’s also the issue of the misandrist assumption of men always wanting sex, which has great harm towards male victims of rape/sexual abuse.
As a man if I invite someone over for a movie, even a woman, it doesn’t mean I want sex with them. If I wanted sex, I’d ask them, but there’s no expectation for me to ever get it. I only expect safety n respect.
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Last year I went to the NT to work. When I arrived at the little community close to the construction camp the first person I saw was an aboriginal woman in her 40′s.
Her appearance was striking, but not because of inherent beauty, far from it.
The left side of her face was hideously burnt, her left eye was gone, and she had an open, weeping eye socket. Her nose barely existed and her nasal cavities were open with holes about the size of 50 cent pieces. Her head was slightly cocked to the left where scar tissue had tightened so she couldn’t turn her head to the right. Most of the left side of her head was hairless and her left ear didn’t exist. The pigment in her skin had been affected so she was a mix of black, pink and white.
After I got to know the lay of the land in the community it became apparent that she was the matriarch of the community and fiercely defended her culture, and kept the young ratbags in line.
In spite of her terrible injuries she was a very proud woman. I feel blessed to have known her, and I felt very special when she gave me a hug for putting on a christmas show for the community.
The injuries came from a day when she was younger, and drinking to excess. Her man got angry with her and belted her before throwing her into the fire. She didn’t receive any medical treatment and was expected to die. It was an indomitable spirit that pulled her through, and it also bought the respect of her people.
These things still happen, and these are the things that should cause outrage.
So when I hear that women are “outraged” by a really stupid tweet, I am, quite frankly, disgusted. To me it sounds like Marie Antionette “If the people are hungry and they have no bread, then let them eat cake”
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Thank you for sharing this. Reading about this woman, I felt certain that much of the outrage that MM seeks to provoke is being channelled in the wrong direction.
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Why can’t we be upset by any and all sexist behaviour? Women face sexism and discrimination every day, at work, at home, at school, so we need to stand up for ourselves in every situation. Of course we are upset by violence against women, but we can be upset about that and also this tweet – you don’t just have to be upset by one. We can’t go around thinking ‘that’s offensive, but it’s not as bad as being beaten up so I will try not to get upset’ where’s the sense in that?
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Lets save our outrage for real sexism and misogyny like that perpetrated in India recently and in countries where women are truly oppressed and treated like inferior beings. We have no idea how lucky we are.
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Why can’t we be outraged by all sexism? Why is it only OK to get upset about violence against women. Get outraged by what happens in India by all means, who wouldn’t be outraged? But sexism is sexism and I don’t even know why we’re debating what level of sexism we need to get upset by.
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Whenever I see a company striking out like this, my immediate thought is that the company is feeling the pinch and desperately needs to drum up good & bad publicity, in an effort to invigorate the brand.
Often an advertising firm is behind it. “Mistakes” are rare, especially when it comes to American branding.
Unfortunately, we fall for it every time. Aaand, no…. Feminists should never stop calling people (and brands) out on inapropriateness. Even when it is contrived.
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I thought the tweet was stupid. Like someone else said if the word ‘expecting’ was changed to ‘hoping’, I wouldn’t really care. Beyond that I don’t care. I think some people do get outraged over too much and are in fact just looking for things to be outraged over, or just over sensitive, but that’s just my opinion. Sometimes I think we do need to be “on guard” for erosions to any gains women have made in the western world. A great example would be some of the laws that have been introduced on a state by state basis in the US about abortions.
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But the fact that the tweet did say expecting rather than hoping does matter. The two words convey entirely different attitudes.
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I don’t think it was appropriate to say this on twitter, not because it’s such a public company or the fact that it was an intern who wrote it, but because its very difficult to convey tone and meaning in 140 characters or less. Saying that though as proud Gen Y member, I honestly don’t know anyone aged from 18-24 who thinks that going to someone’s house to watch movies actually means they will watch a movie and that’s all, we definitely expect making out and at least a little over or under the bra action. And because everyone I know assumes that’s what’s happening there are never any issues, also you can just say no.
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I’m confused too. I’m finding myself feeling mock outrage because others are. I also rely heavily on people I deem more qualified than myself and if I sight their outrage it triggers my outrage. Confusing feminism. Confused.
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Haha, fabulous comment!
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You SHOULD know what they’re EXPECTING.
I have teenage daughters and honestly I just despair.
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I’ll tell you what I’m outraged about. I’m outraged that an intern is allowed to post a message to a social media account of a business without anyone checking him, or what he was writing prior to the “tweet” button being pressed. If youre going to have FREE staff (which is a topic that outrages me greatly) then make sure you supervise them properly. I am also confused as to why a man is anywhere near the marketing dept of a lingerie company, but that may just be me being sexist.
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I dont know how many comments or articles or posts have to say that it was a WOMAN who made the tweet. For goodness sake, post facts or dont post.
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Dave, not all of us have time time to read every other post before writing our own comment. For a start we don’t even have to scroll through the comments to get to the place where we add our comment. I was taking the article at face value and expecting it to be correct.Please watch your rudeness levels in your comments in future.
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Outraged again are you tipmaster?
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I’ve read Dave’s comment several times. If that is a rude comment then please point me in the direction of a tame one.
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I don’t think it’s so much the comment, Bradley, more the tone. I thought it sounded harsh even before I read the responses. And I’m not even a particularly gentle soul!
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Bradley, even I found this rude. And this is from someone who didn’t bat an eye when a kid in year 8 at school told me to ‘go get f*&cked you red-headed c%6t’ last year (to be honest I was more offended that my colour had faded so much he thought it was red, not that there’s anything wrong with red-heads of course – off to the hairdresser for me that weekend!).
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Agree, B-Rad. In response to a fairly strident comment, it is fine and in keeping with the comment it’s responding to. It isn’t offensive.
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Female or male is irrelevant .. if you dont read previous comments, how can you make an informed comment .. and how can you take such umbrage at someone who does.
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Then maybe the author needs to change/edit the words “a penis-owning one” when describing the intern in the article???? I also thought it was a man after readsing this.
Dave – I don’t need to read others comments or opinions to provide my own
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No, not outraged. I might not be doing much for feminism when saying this, and I totally understand that I owe it to my fore-sisters to have the privileges that I have, but I do think sexist outrage is currently on overdrive. I think every word that is written anywhere is over scrutinised and any possible meaning that potentially could be interpreted as sexist (or other re Kate Hunter’s post from yesterday) is dissected to oblivion. It saddens me.
Sure, some statements just shouldn’t be made and drawing the line can be very difficult, and some statements can trigger bad memories for some people, but if we keep this level of scrutiny soon no one will be able to express any opinion of anything because it won’t be PC and someone will be offended.
Lets just exhale a little people. Bring it home, teach our peers and kids as best we can and gently remind stupid boys to think before they speak.
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Errrr I’ve worked for a big company in which I had direct access to their social media accounts and something like this would never have slipped by. If you’re representing the company by using their account I would expect that you put more thought into something that you’re posting on the internet on their behalf. Because of the amount of screening that our posts went through before they were added to our site I find it hard to believe that a company like this would give an intern access to their twitter account.
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If we don’t draw attention to seemingly unintentional gaffes about sex, race, religion etc., then we run the risk of missing out on those “one small step for man” moments. It’s all well and good to reserve most of our outrageous energy for Alan Jones and Tony Abbott or whichever out of touch straight white male has the privilege of saying the next misogynistic thing, but we also need to make the effort to draw attention to the everyday occurances that don’t always sit right with us.
On a side note, I heard it was a FEmale intern…
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So what is wrong with being a straight white male?
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straight white male = the least oppressed, and traditionally the oppressor. The shaper of our society, in which others (female, non-white, non-middle/upper class) are oppressed.
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Jamila, I agree that we’re at risk of becoming a parody of outraged feminists. I think what the coverage of the Kayser thing missed though was the amount of mockery and humour that was being directed towards the company. I was pretty uncomfortable when I read news reports that led with the claim feminists had accused Kayser of blaming rape victims – I think that’s a patently false summary of what happened.
I think people were more offended that a company whose sole market is women were using such outdated sexism (and in a fairly disparaging tone at that) to speak to them. Looking back through the #kaysermaleinsider tweets (and there are only five or six of them over the last few months), you discover a theme whereby women aren’t given any insight at all other than what not to do in order to make men like them. (Just because you’ve met my mum doesn’t mean you can plan the wedding! Just because I add you on Facebook, doesn’t mean I want anything more! Reply to my SMS, otherwise I’ll get bored and move on!) For me, the whole ‘expecting sex’ subtext fit in with a more dismissive attitude towards their female customer base. Why would a company think it’s sensible to neg their target market?
Kayser later said it was a senior female account executive who composed the tweet, and it was posted by a female intern (after initially saying it was a male intern). So there’s some inconsistency there. Regardless, it’s completely stupid for a brand to draw on tired stereotypes about gender (and in this case, one which has actually been used post sexual assault to imply partial responsibility on a woman’s part) to try and sell their image. I think it was THAT which motivated mockery, not just a limited outrage at victim blaming. Most of the coverage ignored the men who also took umbrage at Kayser’s suggestion that they were sex driven dudebros who ‘expected’ sex instead of conversation or company.
And in reference to mockery, I think sometimes news outlets confuse that with outrage. Yes, there were people outraged over Kayser, calling for boycotts and bans and apologies and donations etc. But the majority of tweets I read were simply mocking Kayser, making fun of their tired social media strategy and laughing at them for being completely out of touch. Surely that carries a lot of weight? Outrage might end up being good publicity for a company, but they get nothing out of knowing people are laughing at them.
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You know, that’s a very fair point Clementine. Much of the push back on Twitter that I saw was gentle teasing. Calling Kayser out and saying ‘this just isn’t okay’ and using humour to show the company it was an ignorant thing to write. And that is a reaction I would have been really comfortable with and – more than that – jumped on the bandwagon to be a part of!
But there was also a fair chunk of proper outrage and I think that’s where we do ourselves a disservice. By giving the appearance of welcoming or wishing for a fight, waiting for someone to fail…. well it doesn’t do the name of feminism much good.
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‘a company whose sole market is women were using such outdated sexism’
With ya, Clem. They should get with the times and totally update their sexism!
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Your significant focus on whether it was a male or female that was responsible for tweeting this (desperately trying to pin your hopes on the fact that it was a male) speaks volumes of your constant desire to blame men for everything Clem.
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How was Clementine “desperately trying to pin your hopes on the fact that it was a male”??
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I think it’s the use of the word ‘expect.’ ‘Hope for’ or ‘wants’ would have been better. Nothing wrong with hoping for or wanting a root…another thing all together to expect one.
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Oh FFS – I’m outraged that there is outrage about this!
Poorly worded? yes.
But change the word ‘expecting’ to ‘hoping for’ and it pretty much goes away.
But if a guy that I’m seeing invites me over to watch a movie then I get that he is expeting sex – but so am I ! Maybe anyone who’s upset about this tweet needs to see a good ‘movie’ if you know what I mean
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If a guy invites you over to watch a movie, you should know what they’re expecting.
Yes to watch a movie I imagine.
Seriously, I sometimes think people LOOK for things to be offended by and pissed off at.
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Seriously, the meaning of the tweet is obvious. and it ain’t about watching a movie. I think some people tend to play dumb, when it’s as plain as the nose on their face.
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Yes, it’s as if movie or DVD is a code word for sex, isn’t it?
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And it works both ways. I would invite my (now) husband over way back when to watch a “movie”, so he all innocence would turn up with a rented movie and I would answer the door in a nurses costume that left little to the imagination. The movie would go unwatched and it would be happy days!!
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I know you’re going to think I’m ridiculous, but the sexy nurses costumes hack me off severely. If you’ve ever been at a party and copped all the stupid comments about nurses and worn an actual working white nurses uniform, you’d realise that is one the most asexual jobs and outfits around and the comments were just a result of porn and stupid sexy nurses costumes. Rant over.
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I’m with you Faybian, I was married to a couple of nurses and there’s nothing sexy at all about the uniform. The thought of a “sexy” nurses uniform is a huge turn off for me.
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Yep I certainly do know what its like to wear the uniform, been wearing it for 18 years now, actually I’ve just put on my uniform (scrubs to be precise) to go and start my 4th nightshift in the NICU where I work. Seriously get over yourself, I was 21 and a first year student nurse. Did you not do silly things when you were young?. And no I havent copped any “nurses jokes” at parties but then again I dont tend to go to parties where such jokes are made, never really been my scene.
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Well thanks for the rude “get over yourself”. And the sanctimonious “I don’t tend to go to parties where such jokes are made”. No need for that really, it was just my opinion and it doesn’t matter where you go or who you mix with, there’s always someone that can or will make a tasteless comments.
Of course I’ve done stupid things when young, far more than I care to remember. I’ve just never liked sexy nurses outfits. Don’t be so sensitive, it wasn’t a personal attack.
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After surgery the nurses outfit didn’t look sexy at all, bit of blood here and the look of someone who is overworked, cranky at the damn fool in the next bed abusing them, I was just happy I was able to cheer the nurses up n had a pleasant experience with them.
I don’t mind the sexy nurse costumes but I dislike how that gets thrown back at nurses. Play dressup if you want, sexy nurse, sexy soldier, whatever, but respect the people in the profession!
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Yes, I think we should be outraged about the small stuff! Because every time something like this is posted into social media, it says to the perpetrators that that attitude is ok, and it says to *everyone else* that that attitude is ok, when it’s NOT.
Big change comes from making small changes – changing attitudes, our reflexive reactions to comments and ideas. So yes, we should make a big stink about the small things.
And being completely cynical, Kayser could have jumped on the bandwagon of toxic marketing, and used the current backlash against sexism and mysogynism to great publicity – converting ‘bad’ publicity into ‘good’ publicity, because now, of course, they are the white knights of abused women.
Puke!
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One of the reasons I struggle to call myself a feminist is because the majority of feminists I know only seem to care about the issues affecting them. Body image, airbrushing, mild sexist language (eg. some old man calling them sweetheart), legally produced porn, distribution of housework… Occasionally they might pay lip service to wider global issues, but all their complaint writing, boycotting and protesting energy goes into things like this; a poorly worded tweet.
For example, there’s always a ton of outrage over sexualised clothing ads but only occasional outrage over sweat shops. Which is worse, that a brand paid a famous model/singer/actress a million bucks to take a few layers off, or that right now women are working in horrific conditions, crippling their hands and losing their eyesight, for miniscule amounts of money (or no money at all) so that Western women can have the latest piece of disposable fashion?
That’s just one example, but I see it here on Mamamia constantly. A well written article about child brides or modern slavery will get a handful of comments mostly in the vein of “this is terrible. so glad I live in Australia”, while an article about a stupid ad or sexy music video will get 200-300 outraged comments filled with ideas about how to deal with this Very Important Issue.
There is a place for discussion of the kinds of things I mention above, but right now outrage about things like American Apparel ads and Katy Perry video’s dominate amongst non-academic feminists, and it’s incredibly off-putting.
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Bravo, Kate!
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Why the line “non-academic” feminists? Does it matter? Sounds like someone’s a academic snob
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I don’t think it’s snobbish at all. I expect Kate meant it as an the profession rather than ‘non-educated’.
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Thank you, that was exactly what I meant.
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Hmm, I still get a whiff of snobbery. (And I speak as a ‘non-academic feminist’ who is interested in issues like child brides & slavery)
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I didn’t even complete my HSC until I was 30, I’m hardly in a position to be snobby about education.
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Hiya Kate,
Such interesting points, thanks for sharing them. I do think we need to cut people some slack though – it’s human nature to be more interested in issues that affect your personally or that you feel some connection to.
It’s for that very reason that charities like World Vision encourage regular donors to ‘adopt’ a child rather than simply donate money regularly. When you can bring an issue into someone’s immediate world, it encourages them to engage and to care.
Similarly, I think it’s easier to write a comment about something you have experience with. Just because you feel equipped to make a meaningful contribution to the debate about Katy Perry’s latest video but not to the debate about genital mutilation in Ghana, doesn’t mean you care about one more than the other – it just means you feel more comfortable voicing an opinion.
Jamila
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I’m not expecting anyone to suddenly become an expert, but I suppose I just find it disappointing that this is where smart, strong women with voices that are acknowledged choose to put their energy. If you have the time to read gossip websites and hate-watch music videos, you have the time to do a little research into some of the issues facing women globally.
Yes there are many issues facing Australian women (and men). But the vast majority of us are incredibly privileged. I know women earning seven figures who complain about the glass ceiling, and others who rant about patriarchy when their husbands forget to take the trash out. There’s a point where many of us are just desperately grasping for things to be angry about, as though we’ve decided being oppressed is our default setting. The fact is, women in Australia are powerful. If we all put just a little of the energy that goes into worrying about Rihanna’s lyrics and brazilians into let’s say, helping the Aboriginal population improve literacy and health or helping victims of sex trafficking escape and rebuild their lives, we as a group could actually make a real difference. Complaining that a pop star looks slutty or whining about the fact that the shoes you choose to buy are painful achieves absolutely nothing, it just adds to an endless sea of useless negativity.
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what a fantastic comment Kate. Bravo.
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Whilst I take the point of your comment, I think that women earning seven figure salaries may well be confronted by a glass ceiling, and this is not fair.
Women who get annoyed when men forget to take the rubbish out may seem petty, but sometimes this is the one domestic duty the man in the house has agreed to be responsible for. In this instance, rage about the rubbish is actually a response to wider issues such as unjust division of domestic labour, which is a real and present issue in many women’s lives. Invoking the term ‘patriarchy’ here is not unwarranted.
These two issues are less serious than gang rapes, sweat shops and child brides, granted. But this is not to say they do not deserve discussion.
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Agree with everything you’ve said Kate – all the “feminist” fuss about body image and airbrushing and celebrities does seem spectacularly self-indulgent given the horrific oppression faced by hundreds of millions of women around the world …
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Abso-bloody-lutely !
So much effort is wasted bitching about crap. Kate & JV have hit the nail on the head. Let’s have some discussion about REAL issues and let’s stop trying to find hidden meanings in everything written and said.
Stop manufacturing outrage. No more tripe. Discuss the real injustices of the world and I am 100% on board with you to fight the good fight for change.
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Great comment Kate!
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I think some of those articles only get a small amount of comments because there’s nothing to debate. Most people (except obviously the people doing it) would agree that child brides and slavery are serious issues, that do outrage people. I for one think its great women can be upset and outraged by what ever offends them, be it a big issue or a small one. Sometimes the small issues are the easy ones to change, like in this case women’s (and maybe some men as well) outrage made the company backtrack and donate to a women’s charity. Well done everyone who complained I say!
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This is how naive I must be, I thought it was clever, tongue in cheek marketing!
As in they would be expecting you to be wearing their lingerie… Oops…
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They let an intern post on twitter? Madness. I don’t even let interns fetch complex coffee orders!
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sure. they let an ‘intern’ on twitter.
Sorry. Sounds like PR overload with this stuff up.
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Having interned at numerous entertainment companies over the past few years, it definitely doesn’t surprise me that they ‘let’ an intern post on twitter. In my experience we were given tasks like these to get experience and a feel for what we’ll be doing in our working life. Why else would an intern, intern?
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In this day of social media where long after a tweet is deleted it’s likely to still somehow circulate the net, I am positive a senior member of staff would have had to ok the tweet first.
One of the interns tasks may have been to compile a list of suitable tweets, but to be allowed to hit ‘send’ sounds pretty far fetched.
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Why on earth would an intern need to learn how to use twitter? Surely they would be better equipt to train the staff?
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They would know the technical aspects of twitter, but not the non-technical – i.e. suitability for message etc.
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I think it is important to recognise the small things because they help support larger injustices. I also think that some of these “small things” can be very telling about our society. A lot of people like to dismiss the small things because it’s a lot harder to tease out the meaning, the implications and the impact they have on our lives.
Now, this tweet actually manages to touch on several societal narratives that I find problematic.
Number One is the “you should know” part. I hate that there is this kind of unwritten code in our human interaction, particularly when dating, where words and phrases have dual meaning. Apparenty “watching a movie” also means “I expect we are going to make out/ have sex”. If you tell me we are watching a movie I will rock up to your house with popcorn and most likely shoosh you if you start trying to talk in good bit of the film. You said “watch a movie” so, silly me, I expected to watch a movie! I don’t think that it is right that we expect people to read between the lines or look for some hidden message underneath what is actually being said. I’ve lost count of the number of times as a teenager that I missed one of these double meanings and actually took people on face value only to discover I was sadly mistaken.
Number Two is expectation. I don’t think it is right to “expect” sex from anybody. Now there is a distinction I need to make. It is perfectly okay to want sex, it is perfectly okay to hope for it but it is not okay to expect it. I think there is a decided difference in attitude between a person that wants and hopes for sex as opposed to someone who expects it. In the first case there is a recognition that it may not happen dependent upon how the other party feels. It recognises that the other person has to consent. In the second case, expecting sex seems to not allow for the feelings of the other person and it seems to indicate a certain amount of pressure and a feeling that sex is owed to them. It seems hostile to consent.
Number three is that we always talk about sex in terms of men wanting sex like it’s a one way street. Like men are horny dogs and women are generally indifferent or reluctant. Like it’s some kind of old fashioned hunt and men are hounds and women pheasants. The language robs women of their agency. What about what women want in these scenarios? We need to start talking about women as active participants who can want, need and enjoy sex. Also, I think this attitude contributes to date rape. The idea that women just act reluctant or that women just need to be pestered by men until they give in. I think as a society we need to change our attitude and recognise women do have sex drives, they do know what they want and aren’t just passive bystanders in their own sex lives.
I’m not outraged by this tweet, mainly because if I was outraged every time somebody said something like this I would have no energy left for anything else in my life because it’s all too common. However, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a valid talking point.
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Great response
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Absolutely spot on. The use of the word ‘expecting’ makes me feel particularly icky.
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If a guy invites me over to watch a movie…he’s probably my dear gay friend Daniel and we’re going to watch High School Musical or Brigadoon….no need to worry about my underwear at all….
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Women….when a guy asks you around for dinner at his place, just don’t go. He might be a sexist.
Nip it in the bud !
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You know what Bradley? At first I thought I was beginning to understand your point of view….then I read this article.
If your daughter graduates as a lawyer, her starting salary will be $4,300 less than that for a man doing exactly the same job.
http://thehoopla.com.au/ladies-worth/
So screw anyone who says otherwise. Until that is fixed. Until we don’t get wold whistled at on the street: WE NEED FEMINISM. We need to be compassionate and caring about all injustices too but STOP DISMISSING ANY ARTICLE ABOUT SEXIST AND MISOGYNIST BEHAVIOUR.
We don’t want it to exist but it does. And it angers me that when I finish uni with the same qualifications as any man I will be paid less and told I am less worthy than him.
If a hot guy walks down the street, can I loudly acknowledge it? I can’t. Because I am a woman and it would be unacceptable to wolf whistle or say crude things to him. If a man does it? Apparently that’s not as bad.
Until these and other issues go away, yeah I will cry sexism and claim to be a proud feminist. How dare you make me feel any less worthy for feeling this way.
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Completely agree Ana – I hate the jeering that takes place about certain issues, particularly in the women’s rights arena. I think it’s aimed at undermining any outrage we might feel, and I believe that I am entitled to feel outraged about issues I care about. Trying to diminish my perspective with a sarcastic comment is really not contributing,
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dunno where you live, but wolf whistling at blokes is well approved in my town.
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Ummm, I don’t mind being wolf whistled at, maybe because it doesn’t happen all that often anymore. It often lightened my day when I’d pass a contruction site I’d get whistled at and told I’m gorgeous or one of the guys loved me etc. totally innocuous and non threatening. It’s the ‘show us your tits’ type stuff that I found offensive and a bit threatening, especially at night.
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We don’t allow the boys on construction sites to whistle any more. There have been too many complaints about sexist behaviour so most companies make whistling a sacking offence these days.
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The first time I was wolf-whistled at passing a construction site, I was ten (I didn’t even have breasts) – needless to say, it wasn’t appreciated, it was bloody scary!
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Good evening, Ana. You might like to point out, anywhere, that I have indicated that I was in favour of women earning less than men. I have long been an advocate for equal pay for equal work.
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small problem, that article was wrong. the organization who did the survey put out a release saying the analysis by WEGA was incorrect. see here for more http://catallaxyfiles.com/2013/01/05/the-workplace-gender-equality-agency-stuffs-up/
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The problem is Ana, that it’s a bit like the boy who cried wolf.
Women get outraged by this silly Kayser tweet. Then they get outraged by a heinous rape. The level of noise is exactly the same for both, yet they are obviously not the same.
Too many women go ballistic over small stuff, then when the big stuff occurs and the noise level is the same they wonder why no-one listens.
There are some real issues out there, both in Australia and worldwide that really need change, so when there’s this much rubbish going on about a stupid twitter post the rest of us don’t know what is really important to women.
Decide for yourself what is an appropriate way to act.
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Jamila if you’re luke warm outraged by that take a look at this…
https://twitter.com/Emily/status/289489907662065664/photo/1
Using semi naked women as statues to sell hard drives W.T.F?
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What a great example….. of feminist over reaction.
These are not erotic sexualised poses. This is body art. I see bodies painted like this doing street art / busking everyday in Melb, males and females. You see more of the human body at the Olympic games.
Ask yourself whether this outrage would have circulated with 4 painted men as the subject.
It is obviously a convention, and at these things they have tons of performance art/ entertainment circulating through over the event.
A perfect example. Thanks for sharing.
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I’m sure that I have read that people who live in constant outrage have more health problems and wrinkles than those who are only “part-timers”.
Wanna be healthy, live longer and have less wrinkles ? Chill out !
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Gets a bit exhausting being outraged by every stupid comment you see on the internet don’t you think?
But I agree no one should ever ‘expect’ sex from anther person but at least a donation was made so some good has come from it.
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The saddest thing about this….some people deliberately go searching through the internet and Twitter hoping to find something to upset them !
Go figure ???
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Pffffft. Who needs to go looking? Something usually hits me in the face within an hour of getting out of bed. I suppose I could just become indifferent and not care but that’s not how I roll.
Also, in the social circles I frequent I am renowned for my rants and I’ve got to keep the skills sharp you know
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‘Also, in the social circles I frequent I am renowned for my rants.’
Ah, Neeks, there’s the slight possibility that we may have been separated at birth…
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I’ve always wanted a twin!
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Same. People have been known to ask me if I’m unwell when I don’t bite back.
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Exactly the same here. When I was in a midwifery class once the teacher offered to perform acupuncture on someone. I put my hand up for it, being a complete sceptic of the procedure. After a few minutes I was so calm that I was rendered unable to speak. Everyone thought it was hilarious and kept baiting me. As a final, definitive test to see if it was working and that I wasn’t faking, one person used a phrase related to childbirth that never, ever fails to make me see red. I won’t say what it was, I’d get my head bitten off here. But I said nothing, all I wanted to do was sit there and listen to my breathing. Everyone was awestruck, and then a bit scared because the phrase hadn’t worked. The teacher took the needles out and gave me some time to recover. Phrase repeated: typical rant ensued. I’ve never questioned acupuncture since.
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I got a foot massage from a friend who was learning massage. Once it stopped feeling ticklish, it was great and my reaction to the kids fighting in the car on the way home? “quiet please” said very softly.
I’ve also had acupuncture, mostly for headaches, but the tumour kinda stopped it working, other things, brilliant.
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And some people deliberately go searching Mamamia hoping to find something to upset them!
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I dunno why, Lulu….but when you chastise me I always feel as if I’ve said the right thing.
Many thanks to you, my favourite sparring partner !
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I don’t know. I grew up a certain way. Looking at you with your two male housies Jamila I think you might now be experiencing what I did growing up. If one of them said something was “gay” or posted the Tweet above… would you chastise them? When you’re sitting back on your lovely terrace/balcony/whatever and you feel that outrage… would you feel it towards the 2 men you described a couple of weeks ago as being your platonic loves (paraphrase)? Of course not.
I’m not meaning to make this personal – and especially not attack-y – but I truly don’t believe you’d write off your friends for that after a few drinks. You’d cringe, and maybe give them a give serve but it’d be done. It wouldn’t make them bad guys for saying that stuff, they’d just be talking. Correct me if I’m wrong.
And this is why I can’t buy into the word feminism. Because each time one of my guy friends something AGAINST THE CODE I don’t necessarily believe it’s out of hatred for women. Same as when my girlfriends talk about small dicks = big cars, big dicks = bad shoes. That’s not my thing. So no, I don’t think that Tweet was offensive… if anything it gives the heads up to those who might not have an idea. Let’s fight the battles that truly exist. Not the ones we think should occur in our heads, yeah?
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Why do even feminists worry about being too nice? Do you think that Alan Jones gets anxious about sweating the small stuff? We shall fight them on the beaches, in the streets, on Twitter…
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I must admit, I’m not outraged over it, but I am a little bothered about it to be honest. It’s a stupid thing to tweet about, especially using your workplace in your name. But young people, young men I know especially, think about having sex, a lot. Maybe he should of put it like, “if a guy invites you over to watch a movie, you should know what they’re hoping for” or something like that. Expecting to have sex doesn’t sit well with me.
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Agree completely – think the wording was a little off.
If they had used hoping instead of expecting then I think no-one would be outraged.
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I am sure many Victorians read about this incident: 13CABS suspends driver who propositioned teenaged girl for sex.
3AW (radio) covered it and had a blog on the topic – see link below, but what shocked me is the response towards the bottom on 8 Jan by Lou who clearly doesn’t get why this was a problem and was frightening for a woman – i.e. in a car with a strange man, who she hired as a legitimate taxi driver, who drove her down a dark alley. http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/breaking-news-blog/13cabs-suspends-driver-who-propositioned-teenaged-girl-for-sex/20130107-2cc13.html
There are SOME men who I feel will never be able to put themselves in women’s shoes and understand the dynamics and vulnerability that unfortunately can and does occur in society – in any country in the world. Maybe they’d have to live it to ‘get’ it?
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Oh thank Christ. I was the same as you Jamila and thought all the outrage was twitter bandwagonism at it’s finest. The tweet was stupid and poorly worded – but definitely not worth the level of outrage it generated.
I agree that if we start reacting like this to every stupid thing we hear, when it’s time to get really angry about something, we’re going to have nothing left to give.
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Couldn’t agree more with this comment.
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Yep and more importantly, no-one will pay attention, which is the slope I feel we are starting to slide down if every other day we see an article like this in the media.
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Me too – I thought it was a tad offensive saying all men expect is sex. But I in no way read the comment as promoting rape culture.
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It’s not that we expect sex, men in general don’t.
But we do hope for it, or a boobie squeeze perhaps…
Seriously, unless it’s a known friendship, and I’ve always had female friends where it’s totally plutonic, guys think about the possibility of sex, but we sure as hell don’t expect it.
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All the Kayser pantyhose I ever bought ran within two wears anyway, so it’s not like they’ve damaged their reputation with me.
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Why is it sexist to want to have sex with a girl that you’re attracted to?
The evening invite to someone’s house almost always signals ‘It’s probably about time we had sex, as long as no-one says or does something to f*ck it up”. Everyone knows this.
It doesn’t mean that sex is guaranteed, but it’s like a forecast of ‘Fine night, with 85% chance of extended periods of getting it awn.’
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‘It’s probably about time we had sex, as long as no-one says or does something to f*ck it up”.
Well, f*ck me if that’s not romantic…
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‘Well, f*ck me if that’s not romantic…’
I accept.
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It’s not sexist to want to have sex with a girl, but it’s concerning to have the attitude that if she’s agreed to come to your house then she’s agreed to put out (she’s agreed by implication, because she knows what’s coming).
Hey, we all know what might be on the cards when four dates in the guy says “hey, why don’t I cook you dinner at mine? We could watch a dvd after”. But I’m expecting that we can both play it by ear and see how we’re feeling as the date rolls along, not that the guy expects he’s definitely getting laid, and that the pressure is on to put out if I agree to the date. Screw that attitude!
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Ok, but that’s an attitude. Is that an attack against your feminist beliefs?
Guy wants to cook you dinner + dvd… you go over thinking you can “play it by ear” = either or, who knows. So you’re horny but unsure.
But yet he’s the anti-feminist??? Are you an anti-male-ist for assuming he just wants to have sex? Why the f do you assume he’d even want to have sex with you? Are you overly confident/self conscious and trying to play it off/a slut? See how silly that sounds?
Seriously I don’t understand this.
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I don’t think the guy is anti-feminist at all for this. However, a comment in this regard, made in a public formum, may be.
Personally, I’m not outraged at all my Kayser’s comment, but I don’t like it either. I know this is getting really pedantic, but if they had written “If a guy invites you over for a movie, you know he is hoping for sex” it wouldn’t have been as bad. The phrasing “you know what he is expecting” implies that if a girl goes to a guy’s house to watch a movie, she should sleep with him, and if she doesn’t she’s a tease.
As I said, I’m not outraged, but it is the contant, little comments like this that work their way into our psyche, telling all of us that men are after sex and women are here to give it to them.
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I agree Lucinda, it’s the wording that’s inappropriate. This type of attitude is where victim blaming stems from. But yeah, not outraged, the tweet was just a bit ignorant.
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We are talking about the tweet and going by “kayserMaleInsider”, you’re expected to put out, because, you know, you came over for dinner and a movie. There’s no assuming he wants to have sex with you, he expects it. That attitude needs to be addressed, and it was.
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Yes, it’s being addressed. In that all of us as a collective are looking like hypocrites and misanthropes. Scope out the person before you go to their house alone. Shit… scope them out before you an accept a drink from them.
I’m trying to raise a son and this is the stuff we’re worrying about??? Just like the outrage about Kate’s article yesterday I fear I’ll just never get it. Regardless, thanks for the replies. And lucinda – I totally get what you mean and I agree… a few other chosen words would have meant all the difference (and not rendered this newsworthy).
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How are we all hypocrites and misanthropes? (people who dislike humankind and avoid human society)????
I’m raising 3 sons, and this is the stuff we should always worry about. My boys know not to “expect” sex in any situation, but obviously there are still and I believe will always be, boys and men who “expect” women and girls and pressure women and girls and coerce women and girls into having sex. That’s why as a society when things like this come up it needs to be nipped in the bud, it’s not acceptable.
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As I sit here at my desk, the man next to me who has the same role as me and virtually started the same week as me a few years ago earns about 20 per cent more than me; yet I do the lion’s share of the work, work longer hours in the day and have more qualifications than him. If that’s not sexism?
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Irrelevant!
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Have you approached your manager about this?
If not, why not?
For all you know he went into management and said “I’ve done this, I’m capable of X, I think I deserve a raise.”
Have you done the same? If not, don’t complain.
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+1
The amount of time I’ve seen this comment on sites like this – seriously…if it’s that clear cut then your employer is definitely in the wrong and you should be approaching them and demanding a raise.
Otherwise perhaps you need to be honest with yourself about whether there are other factors at play.
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He’s earned more since day one.
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Then he negotiated a better salary at contract time. It’s how this stuff regularly happens.
And yes, men tend to be more aggressive with salary negotiations.
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And if you know this but believe you are more qualified for the job, WHY haven’t you gone to management and stated your case?
Seriously I’m all for equal pay and opportunities but you also have to fight for them instead of hoping someone will do it for you.
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Same role but has he been involved in other projects? Been more proactive at asking for other things to do – been more agressive in getting his acheivements across at review time? Outright said he’d like a raise because of x,y or z?
Have you taken time off to raise a family and he hasn’t or had sabbatical time off work for travel/study?
Lots of detail missing in your comment so it comes across as a bit bare..
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No, that tweet doesn’t outrage me at all..it’s probably perfectly true, it would be up the woman to decide if develops into anything further, but to be aware it’s probably what’s on his mind is natural…I guess I could get outraged at the lack of taste though.
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I think your point is spot on, Jamila – we probably need to pick our battles to a certain extent, and I’m pretty careful these days about only getting outraged over things that REALLY offend – not just thinking that other people think should offend me.
That said, yes, I was a little bit outraged by the Kayser tweet (can you be ‘a little bit outraged’? Is that like being a little bit pregnant??).
I think it was it’s just so silly and irresponsible in the current environment for companies to make comments like these.
I can’t shake the feeling that there’s an element (by Kayser and others) of doing it deliberately for the ‘publicity’ – and that ‘no publicity is bad publicity model really offends me.
And while I agree with your comments about what a man might THINK will happen if you go to his house for a movie date, there’s something that really irks me in the tweet about the use of the word ‘expects’. I don’t know. It’s like it touches upon that idea that a man has a RIGHT to take what he wants, or that it’s owed to him, or something like that? It sounds so much more demanding than ‘wants to happen’, ‘thinks will happen’ or ‘hopes will happen’ …
x TDMJ
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I agree completely, they’re good points. I also chafed at the word ‘should’ in the tweet i.e. “you should know”. It somehow seems to confer the responsibility all to the woman for any miscommunication or misunderstandings.
And I agree there’s probably a large element of attention-seeking in this tweet, it does seem to be a common strategy nowadays. I wonder if companies realise that some of us will direct our consumer dollars elsewhere not just for sexist/silly comments, but also if we feel we’re being manipulated a wee bit too much?
Outraged? Nah, just unimpressed and a tad suspicious.
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I totally disagree. I think the status of women is lowered by sexism and that this works because sexism gets to fly under the radar. ‘its just a joke’ ‘it wasn’t meant that way’ ‘there are bigger issues in the world’ etc. etc. Victim blaming isn’t ever ok even if its only a little bit or accidental. I say call it out where you see it. Making sexism NEVER ok, under any circumstance, not even a little bit- making sexism unprofitable and completely socially unacceptable- that is how we see an end to it and one way (I think a powerful one) that we can move towards are more egalitarian society. For this reason I actually think it helps the cause. Think about it this way- is a little bit of accidental racism ok? a little bit of accidental anti-semitism?NEVER so why is a little bit of sexism ok?
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To add to that- maybe outrage is just the wrong word? Can’t we call something out as unacceptable without being ‘outraged’?
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Of course we can. Great point Emily. There’s a scale and sometimes I think we have a tendency (and we DEFINITELY includes myself) to do a disservice to the bigger issues by getting outraged about the smaller ones rather than just calling them out as unacceptable.
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Would the same outrage apply if the woman invited the man over?
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It would probably be ridiculous critisism to the woman in the way of slut-shaming or being ‘easy’…
No winners either way!
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Thanks for this comment – I think the “is a little bit of racism ok?” really hits it on the head for me.
I completely agree that letting these things ‘slide’ allows it to perpetuate. If there wasn’t outrage, then of course Kayser and other companies would have thought it is ok to keep to writing updates like this.
A day of outrage brings attention to it and puts a stop to it.
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I have been feeling a bit like this lately, Jamila! I see tweets like the Kayser one and how people have become outraged and I think: “Hmmm, I can see how and why people are outraged but this, but I don’t feel outraged by it”.
I noticed it yesterday, specifically.
Not to point fingers or anything, but Clementine Ford was tweeting yesterday about how she found two articles on Mamamia offensive – the autism article and the group therapy article about Anonymous wanting to get married. Her argument about the marriage article was that the article reinforces the culture in our society that for women, marriage is seen as the ultimate validation (or something similar).
I just really didn’t think that deeply or intellectually into the article. Same with the Kayser tweet. I suppose on an intellectual level, I can see how the tweet could be construed as outrageous and how Clementine’s point about marriage is probably valid. But I just didn’t feel outraged by it!
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I saw those Tweets from Clementine too and thought they were quite churlish and don’t do the wider cause of feminism any favours. There’s something very Women’s Studies 101 about that very narrow and judgmental approach to feminism. I know because that’s how I used to think too back when I was at uni but am proud to have now grown up into a far more nuanced – but no less passionate! – feminist
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I followed her on Twitter and you’re right…attack Mia or Mamamia for something legit, not because you hope to get your name in lights.
Again: I am NOT her type of feminism. In fact she embarrasses me.
So I’l remain, all alone, Flopie, Blopsie
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So the “dinner party” rules don’t apply to attacking people who aren’t actually a part of the conversation then?
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Stella, I didn’t say anything offensive about Clementine in my comment.
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Stella it’s pretty obvious to me that the rudest guest at this dinner party was the person Tweeting unnecessarily unkind comments about this website. Is it really rude of some of us to politely object to those remarks?
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Only very. This site has been known to go looking for a good dose of trivial feminist outrage quite regularly.
A good test is to reverse genders and ask yourself if you would still be outraged in reverse. It is this type of hypocrisy that really gets me.
For example…
Objectifying women = feminist outrage, next post drooling over man candy or Ryan Gosling photos.
Outrage at how women are portrayed in ads yet laughing at the 7000th ad showing men to be halfwit fools.
How about we all look out for eachother regadless of gender, and fix disadvantage and wrong wherever we find it. Life isnt a team sport.
At the same time lets not lose a sense of humour, the ability to laugh at ourselves, and lets also fight for the things that really matter. That way, people will actually listen when it matters that they do.
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For someone who doesn’t believe sexism exists, of course *any* outrage is an overuse.
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wow, ok. Sure sexism exists. When have I ever said it didnt. I have 2 daughters that I love more than anything, and would fight everyday of the week if I felt they were getting a raw deal in life purely because of their gender. But I also do not want them to grow up only looking out for issues affecting women.
Unlike some, I see the world wholistically. I know that a crime against anyone is just as bad a crime regardless of the gender of the victim. A drowning on an asylum boat is not more tragic because women were on board. I want to fix any wrong or injustice, not purely those of my own gender.
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Oh — the old I have daughters argument. LOL are you Tony Abbott in disguise?
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But WB, some issues ARE gendered, and ignoring the gender factor denies the true issue. For example, ignoring the gender bias in sexual assaults (both in terms of victims and perpetrators) is like saying that the KKK shouldn’t be viewed through racial lenses, as everyone deserves equal protection from them. That kind of attitude denies the facts and ignores the deeper, causative issues, and means that the problem can never be solved.
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Alice, I am not saying there are no gender issues and I am most definately against any sexist behaviour.
You may wish to re read the actual point I was making.
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Why is it so hard to believe someone can be a feminist/ equalist/ humanist/ every other term bandied around, if the end goal is to PROMOTE EQUALITY!
Why is it such a bad thing to be a feminist? As long as you are still very much aware and vocal about issues affecting males too, why should being a feminist make it seem like you are only looking out for women?
Women DO get the raw deal (equal pay being one example!) in some areas and this should be addressed. So should any issues that affect males.
By saying feminism is irrelevant now, we are dismissing the severity of these injustices towards women that are still occurring.
I’m a proud feminist. But above all I look at things objectively and if ANYONE is being treated poorly based on their gender or otherwise I will speak out and try to create change.
I won’t revoke my feminist status because it annoys the males that don’t have an equivalent.
End of story.
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I’m a proud feminist, I don’t back away from that for anyone, and never will. But I agree completely with WB’s comment. Another example that sprang to mind for me was the “I go shopping then lie about it to my husband” post a couple of weeks ago.
If a woman wrote a post asking for advice about finding out their male partner had done the same, it would have been full of comments about “Dump him before it gets worse!” “How can you trust him if he’s lying about this??? What else would he lie about??”.
The articles in the name of feminism here are actually pretty insulting to the ideal of feminism – and the OUTRAGE about them has been silly. Main case in point- the attempted furore about David Campese tweeting about a girl taking over Greg Growden’s role at the SMH. Fine to cover it, fine even to be “outraged”. But in the scheme of things? Take it up with Campo. Don’t write a story about how Usain Bolt thought you were hot, and you capitalised on that but then complain because he thought you were hot.
The hypocrisy is rife.
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I think it’s important to note that sexist comments don’t occur within a vacuum. Whilst I’m not a fan of drooling over men, doing so is not the same as objectifying women. If the roles were completely reversed (men were more likely to be victims of sexual assault, earned less than women, held few positions of power within society), then it would be a valid argument. Until then, it falls short.
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Doesnt take long for the gender victim score card to appear. In Australia, there are as many issues that need addressing on both sides of the gender divide. And i am not sure what income has to do with objectifying someone sexually. I may as well just say women shouldnt drool over pics of men because of suicide rates, heath stats, work place injuries, lack of work life balance and child custody issues. We can all play the victim game, but what I am saying is lets just fix any issue that needs fixing without playing gender teams.
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Really WB? Surely you’re smarter than that. I know you can put together the dots that join objectifying women (making them objects for sexual gratification) and sexual violence (in which women are objects for sexual gratification*), or ads that ridicule and disempower women (fostering an attitude that women are stupider, weaker and less important or powerful than men and can/should be treated as such) and sexual/physical violence against women (borne from attitudes that women are stupider, weaker and less important or powerful than men and can/should be treated as such). It’s not really a tough one.
How does an ad objectifying a man make him more likely to have a workplace injury? No one is arguing that men should be objectified or degraded – but pretending that sexism towards men is as dangerous or has the same effect is just offensive and foolish. You really do yourself a disservice when you try to ignore obvious truths just so you can get outraged.
* I know sexual assault isn’t just about sex, it’s about power and other things too
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I hear the point you’re making WB, but the difference is that one group (women) has been traditionally oppressed, and the other has traditionally (and continues to be) the powerful, rule-making majority (men). Poking a bit of fun at the oppressor isn’t going to do them much harm. Poking fun at the ridiculed minority is harmful and offensive.
Women in Australia are extremely lucky compared to women in third world countries – but the rate of sexual and domestic violence aimed at women compared to men (and perpetrated by men) alone shows that we still have a long way to go. We’re not yet equals, sexism is still prevailant, and we still need to fight for sexism to be recognised for what it is (rather than dismissed as harmless fun).
In the same way that people speak out against ‘jokes’ about gay people (but wouldn’t be offended about a joke about hetero people), or against ‘jokes’ about black people (but wouldn’t be offended if it was against a white person), jokes/ads/sayings etc that ridicule, objectify or stereotype women should be avoided and criticised. We can all look forward to the day when we’re post-sexism and everyone’s fair game – but we’re not there yet.
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I have to strongly concur with this comment.
We also have to look at how men are portrayed, especially (married men with kids) in advertisements to see how sexism is everywhere.
Human beings are being objectified everywhere. (TWB, I’m sure you do agree though that women are definitely much MORE objectified than men)
I would also like to note that if this tweet was reversed – say a woman wrote “If a girl invites you over and offers to cook dinner, you should know what they’re expecting” no one would bat an eyelid.
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I’d expect him to treat my dog with kindness and to load my dishwasher – is that too much, do you think?
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Haha they’d probably just be confused; “um…to do the dishes?”
Traditional notions of gendered sexuality cast men as the sexual dominators, and women as the coy, submissive conquests, which is why people wouldn’t have the same assumptions if it was in reverse. In terms of it being offensive, statisically obviously the rape victim/perpetrator roles are extremely gendered, so it’s not nearly as offensive or implicitive in reverse.
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Just a comment on the Gosling thing (from someone who isn’t obsessed with him or swooning over him, but who kind of gets it). Whenever blogs (including this one) fawn all over him, it’s not purely looks-based.
Yes, there’ll be a shirtless pic or two from a movie in a gallery of lots of other pics, but there’s always loads of commentary about:
- unusual roles he chooses (e.g. Lars)
- iconic characters (the dude from the Notebook)
- noble real life gestures (breaking up a fight, saving someone from a rogue car)
- loving his mum!
- quotes from interviews, showing intelligence and/or sensitivity
I realise this might all still sound lame to you, but my point is that admiring and being a fan of a celebrity for their work, thoughts and deeds is less objectifying than if it’s just an unknown person who looks good in their underwear on a billboard.
But I do agree that advertising is also guilty of portraying men in a negative light on many occasions, and yes, we should call it lame when we see it.
Personally, I think disinterest is more effective than outrage when trying to tell advertisers that something isn’t cool – don’t give it extra publicity, don’t buy it, don’t quote it.
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Wise words, as always WB !
As always !
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The tweet was in poor taste. But, with that hashtag, I almost read it ironically.
On a different note: wow. Teenage guy interning at a bra company. He must be living the dream.
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I’ve got a big issue that we can get up in arms about -
The rape victim in Delhi being blamed for the atrocity for not being a “respectable” woman, etc.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/victims-in-delhi-rape-case-are-to-blame-defendants-lawyer-says-20130110-2ch95.html
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Yep. You got that one right – what does “respectable woman” mean? I’m pretty sure I would have failed the test at various stages in my life
The interplay between culture, poor education standards (3 of the defendents are illiterate) and a big wide world watching is going to make this case fascinating, in a totally macabre way.
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I also heard that the male assault victim got blamed for her rape and assault by taking her out at night too. Gaaaarh!
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I don’t see how this is even sexist.
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Sorry but placed my outrage in a different box. I have an amazingly respectful, and caring husband. He regularly kicks my ass in the parenting department and we work as a team everyday. I am outraged on behalf of him and every other man on the planet who is capable of not being dictated to by their penis’. Imagine just being able to watch a movie!
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I do think we do all this faux outrage a bit too much, too frequently, at stuff not really worthy of real outrage. Why aren’t we outraged at the amount of abused children in australia? Who live in motels with department-approved carers instead of homes with families who desperately want them? Or outraged about sexually abused indigenous children forced to remain living with their abusers? Why do we save our well-educated articulations of horror for ill-considered comments instead?
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Short answer? Yes…
I have to admit one of the reasons I stopped being a regular reader of MM was that I was tired of seeing posts that, at least to me, were just over reactions to small little storms in a tea cup…there is a reason that MM has picked up the unfortunate nickname of “DramaMia”…
I ended up unfollowing heaps of people on Twitter for exactly the same reason…not everything that gets put out there on the InterWebs needs a dramatic full frontal attack…sometimes ignoring someone’s stupid opinion or message works just as well…
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I feel the same as you John and i am female.
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I actually think this applies to racism or any other kind of bigotry, not just sexism…there’s too much outrage about so much nowadays…I think we all need to take a step back and think about the kind of things we should get upset about…
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I just realised that might sound like I think we shouldn’t get upset about racism, sexism or any other form of bigotry…
I, of course, meant that we need to pick our fights and not waste energy on things like that tweet from Kayser, that was just stupid, not malicious…let’s educate people who are ignorant, and fight people who are deliberately bigoted…there’s a difference, I think…
We need to fight people like Meryl Dorey, Lord Monkton, and Alan Jones…not some poor schmuck of an intern…
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JJ….your comment is pure, unadulterated GOLD !
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Dramamia! Gold!
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24K gold, that is !
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