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Bettina Arndt1 380x253 Bettina Arndt: some women are ASKING to be ogled

Bettina Arndt

The late Golda Meir tells a great story in her autobiography from the days when she was the only female member of the Israeli cabinet. A serial rapist was wreaking havoc in Tel Aviv and the cabinet was discussing what should be done about it. Somebody suggested that a curfew might be a good idea. Keeping women and girls inside and off the streets after 9pm, he argued, would be a good way to protect them. Golda responded by agreeing that a curfew was a great idea, but as it was clearly a man doing the raping, surely it should be imposed on men and boys? There was a deathly hush amongst her male colleagues and then it was hastily decided that a curfew was not the way to go.

What Golda exposed was something that has been commonplace for millennia; the expectation that women must take responsibility for male sexual responses and behaviour by curtailing and limiting their own. The passing on of responsibility for male behaviour to women has resulted in women being over-responsible and men under-responsible and so neatly stopped both genders from properly growing up. It has also had the toxic effect of causing female victims of male sexual predators to feel real shame as if something they have done must have caused the attack. Women in some theocratic countries are still routinely imprisoned if they have been raped.

I would also argue that it has had the effect of casting a shadow over women’s ability to enjoy and desire sex. Having been taught for so long that something they have no control over – the shape of their adult bodies – is so dangerous and potentially explosive, they have learned to fear not just male sexuality but their own. When we ask women to damp down male desire, we can’t exactly complain when it has the effect of also damping down their own.

All this springs to mind because sex therapist and author Bettina Arndt wrote this at the weekend, about women getting their boobs out and the effect it has on men:

“And men – well, they are in a total state of confusion. There are cocky, attractive, successful men, alpha males, revelling in this unexpected bounty, boldly eyeing off the assets of women they fancy as their prey.

Sensitive males are wary, not knowing where to look. Afraid of causing offence. And there are angry men, the beta males who lack the looks, the trappings of success to tick these women’s boxes. They know the goodies on display are not for them. These are the men most likely to behave badly, blatantly leering, grabbing and sneering. For them, the whole thing is a tease. They know it and resent it.

The state of play was neatly summed up during the recent SlutWalks, where scantily dressed women took to the streets, proudly proclaiming their right to dress as they wish, in protest over a Canadian cop, who suggested women shouldn’t dress like sluts if they don’t want to be raped.

Jamie Lauren Keiles, an organiser of SlutWalk Chicago, explained that a half-naked woman as a form of protest is different from a half-naked lady pandering to the male gaze. It’s about ”a woman putting herself out there as a ‘f— you’ as opposed to a ‘f— me’,” Keiles explained. That may be fine in the context of protesting that scantily dressed women aren’t asking to be raped. Of course, there’s never an excuse for sexual violence or for men to paw or harass women.

But when young women stand in front of mirrors on a Saturday night, adjusting their cleavage, seeking ever greater exposure, maybe they need to think more about what they are doing. While there are women who claim they dress sluttishly just to make themselves feel good, the fact remains that, like the protesters, the main message sent is about flaunting women’s sexual power.

It’s an ”UP YOURS” gesture of the most provocative kind.”

And I guess that is my real irritation with some of the arguments social commentator Bettina Arndt puts about the way women should respond to men. The latest is a finger-wag in this weekend’s Sun Herald about women who flash their cleavage and then get annoyed when men (Arndt calls them beta men) they are not attracted to also take notice. She calls the flaunting of cleavage an “up yours gesture of the most provocative kind”. Well, maybe, but Arndt is also the author of a book that blames women for starving their husbands of sex. It seems she blames us when we act sexy and then blames us when we don’t.

Flashing their cleavage is one way some women enjoy their body and play with their sexuality. Of course they like the admiration and attention they get but men remain grown ups and are always responsible for their own reactions and behaviour. And the idea that only poor, prick-teased men suffer sexual rejection is absurd. Plain girls, overweight women and those deemed unattractive suffer just as much from being rejected as beta (whatever that means) men do. We have a whole range of abusive terms for unattractive women – dog, slag, bint, fat c***, heifer, slapper, hit with the ugly stick. Many men do not even register the existence of women they don’t deem f**kable.

Sex is complex and powerful but – surely – it should also be fun? I think it will get a lot more fun when both men and women take responsibility for their own sexual reactions, behaviour and pleasure. We all suffer rejection, insecurity and heartbreak. We all have sexual fantasies and desires that we cannot (and sometimes should not) fulfill. As long as we continue to send double messages to women encouraging them to be sexy and then blaming them when they are, and ask women to second guess how men might react to them we make full, frank and open communication – including sexual communication – between the sexes much more difficult than it should be. Literally, we spoil the fun.

Jane Caro is a novelist, Just a Girl author of The Stupid Country and The F Word, writer, feminist, atheist, Gruen Chick, speaker, media tart, wife, mother and stirrer. You can follow her on Twitter here.
 Bettina Arndt: some women are ASKING to be ogled

So, what do you make of the arguments? Does Bettina have a point, or are we asking too much of women and thinking too little of men?

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206 Comments so far

  1. Mary Christmas

    Sort of off-topic…I find when I get my boosies out for a spesh occasion, the biggest (vocal) admirers are my women friends! I never catch men looking at them, but I’m not watching for incidents of male lechery all night. And if they are looking? Well, I must confess to some subtle admiring of the opposite sex myself…

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  2. Capricious

    Women dressing to be oogled? Sure, some probably are. So what? They get oogled by men and women alike. Doesn’t mean they are encouraging rape! Clothes are not consent.

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    • Susan

      Whilst I disagree with absolutely every word Bettina says in the above paragraphs, I don’t get that from her writing at all…

      But I do agree with your sentiment, of course.

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  3. dal

    If a person goes swimming after dark in a river in far north QLD and gets taken by a crocodile, do they ‘deserve’ to die? Of course not. Would you consider their actions ‘unwise’? Well … yes.

    I prefer not to go swimming where the crocodiles are….

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    • cat

      False equivalence. When crocodiles develop the sentience that we have as human beings, maybe your analogy will make more sense.

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      • Susan

        And by that argument.. If you left meat uncovered…

        Mmm, let’s not even go there. Please.

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        • cat

          It’s gross, isn’t it? This argument just boils down to ‘men can’t control their sexual urges’.

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  4. Cady

    Jane Caro is my intellectual pin-up girl …

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  5. tanlee

    I’m not crazy about Bettina Arndt’s commentary but then again I’m not crazy that my teenage daughters sometimes dress like porn stars either. They have no idea about the attention they are attracting. There you have it.

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  6. nonna

    Honestly guys, you can’t take Bettina Arndt seriously. I never have. She’s had her day – many moons ago. In our modern day culture, she can be likened to what IT people call outdated computers – a dinosaur. I think we have to be fair to our blokes. Of course men are going to look at women who wear low cut tops, short skirts, etc. That’s not news, it’s been going on for centuries. Read any books on the women in the life of King Henry VIII? Those women made fortunes for their families by showing off their bosoms in low cut gowns. The man who looks at a woman with less than honourable intentions is in the minority. And I would be surprised if the crime statistics show that women get raped or assaulted because of the way they are dressed. In majority of instances it is because of a much deeper, uglier reason. That is a sickness and it’s evil and many men who perpetrate this terrible crime on women don’t confine themselves to younger women either. There are many cases of young men assaulting and raping elderly women, sometimes in their 80s and 90s and these ladies are certainly not wearing push up bras or mini skirts. Bettina Arndt should tackle that issue rather than casting aspersions on the rights or wrongs of how women dress. On a lighter note, I remember when I was younger, walking past construction sites at lunch time in the city where it was not unusual to be whistled at. Of course, a lady kept walking, ignoring the whistles but secretly, we loved it. We didn’t take offence, it was just the way of the Aussie bloke. It was light-hearted and fun, put a smile on the dial and made the rest of your day. What happened to that? We certainly were never in fear of being followed, dragged into the nearest alleyway and attacked because we happened to have bare legs, a mini skirt and a pair of stilettos. And I’m talking 1960s – 70s. The poor Aussie bloke can’t let out a wolf whistle anymore because people like Germaine Greer and Bettina Arndt have canned it – and frankly, that sucks!

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    • HelloIT

      Have you tried turning Bettina off and on again?

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      • Mary Christmas

        HAHAHAHAH!

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  7. Anonymous

    Loud cheering from my place on reading this piece. Thank you, Jane!

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  8. Melly

    This makes me so angry. For God’s sake men are not savages who have no control of their own actions and blaming women is just unbelievable. I’m staggered that people still think this way and that they think its wise to share their thoughts with the world!!

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  9. elle

    BRILLIANT article Jane! Loved it and agree 100%! I am sick of Bettina and angry she gets so much airtime and publicity. In a society where many women continue to be victims of sexual assault/abuse and are still not achieving the equal rights of men, women like Bettina just worsen this. We have been told this nonsense for years and years and hardly need Bettina to champion the voice of poor men who don’t get enough sex from their wives & then can’t even go out to the street to check out some tits without being attacked by the silly slutty woman. Boo hoo boys! Bettina only has her articles published because of the controversy, I’d much rather have Jane replace her!

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  10. Kat

    I love Bettina’s work. She is controversial and I don’t always agree with what she says, but I appreciate the essence of her message. I don’t think she is excusing bad behaviour, just advocating for us (women) to be more considerate of men’s needs and feelings. We are outraged by bad male behaviour but we don’t often stop to consider why so many men engage in such behaviour. My experience is that a lot of men are lonely and desperate without any means of expressing their frustrations. If we are more kind and thoughtful towards each other we can reach a greater understanding.

    As Caitlin Moran says…
    “I’m not ‘pro-women’ or ‘anti-men’ – I’m ‘thumbs up for the six billion’“.

    I’d also recommend Charles Bukowski’s Bluebird poem, it’s a beautiful illustration of a man’s tough facade hiding a gentle soul (which also applies to women, of course.)

    http://www.oneaprilmorning.net/2011/11/bluebird.html

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  11. LLou

    We are all watching the last shreds of Bettina’s credibility slip away…

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  12. whatahooha

    I don’t even have to get the girls out to look ravishingly sexy. i can literally be wearing illfitting jeans and a daggy t shirt and men are lining up behind me, panting, just gagging for it. I am just that kind of sexy-goddess, mother of 4 children with a slight pelvic floor problem, haven’t been to the gym for 6 months kind of woman.
    Or perhaps it’s not about me: maybe it’s them…

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    • LLou

      First belly laugh of the day – fabulous!

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      • whatahooha

        Oh, great, now I’m irresistable to women too. (You know you want me.) Just form an orderly queue.

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  13. happyface

    It is weird really how we believe and accept that men have so little control over themselves that they will rape a woman because of what she is wearing! Do men really have this lack of control, are they bursting to copulate all the time, so badly that they would attack a stranger for it??? Are they so desperate they would attack a 70, 60, 50 year old woman, and not really care what she looks like???
    Most men I know would be completely insulted by this. Sure men have urges but they can control themselves, if they want to. If they are screwed in the head and generally nasty people with no care of respect then they may rape. It has little to do with women’s attire and more to do with opportunity and or the male being a psycho.
    Yes you can give the wrong impression (that you are easy) by what you wear but nothing more than that.

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  14. Mulling over...

    I think Arndt’s article cannot be cut and pasted, like has been done above. That takes it out of context.
    I also think the original tone of Arndt’s article was with a wistful kind of sadness; both for young men and young women, and perhaps decried how feminism has changed so much over the last couple of decades.
    I really feel women and men are confused about what is expected of them in this time and place.
    Women are conditioned that their sexual prowess or their “assets”, if you like, wields a kind of power over others and yes, I agree, that perhaps there is not much exploration or understanding of what this means, for women and also for men. Confusion reigns. Women should be able to wear what they choose, yet undeniably certain gear is chosen because of the reaction it garners.
    We talk a lot about men struggling in this world where there are few role-models and barely any discussion on their own identities following the feminist wave. But I think what Arndt really points out is just how sad and confused women in this time are about their own identities; sexual and otherwise.
    More discussion is needed. Articles like Arndt’s spark this kind of chit-chat. Bravo.

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    • BatGirl

      Beautifully said.

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  15. kateb

    thank you for this article, i was horrified with Bettina’s article at the weekend. i spent a lot of my youth fighting attitudes like that.

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  16. Genevieve

    Being raped has absolutely nothing to do with looking like a slut. Rapists target those they deem as vulnerable and it’s about power for them, not lust. That’s what I’ve read anyway.

    As for the “ogling” thing, of course guys are going to look, but I think it’s okay as long as they don’t do it for ages extremely obviously, or do it whilst talking to you.
    Also if you have larger breasts its pretty much impossible to not show a bit of cleavage unless you’re wearing an extremely high necked top (which are usually ugly and are very unflattering if you have large cleavage). So showing some cleavage is not about trying to attract attention the majority of the time!

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  17. Victoria

    AHHH! I am elated that Mamamia picked up this story.

    I’m sure Bettina Arndt is a wonderful woman. Let me say that first. It just feels as though, like many women of her generation (my lovely mother included) she has a very ‘boys will be boys’ mentality and quite frankly women always end up copping the crap in that situation.
    I loathe that we are expected to take responsibility for so much male behaviour. The argument always seems to follow the idea that men are merely creatures of biology whereas we wisened women have all the power.
    OBVIOUSLY! Because we have all the opportunities men do and we hold all of the positions of power in society…?
    This issue makes me angry so I should stop now and perhaps return at a later point to edit.

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    • Nicki

      This.

      And, my own mother has a short memory as you describe…..she can’t handle my anger about certain things, yet it seems she’s forgotten *many* things she’s done in anger…..

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    • kateb

      Please don’t make this an age thing, my mum of 87 was just as horrified as i was

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      • Victoria

        You’re right. I’m sorry to have generalised like that. I think I just wanted to give Mum an excuse.
        And for the record, I’m quite sure my Grandmother of 90 would think the article ridiculous too.

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  18. Bec

    Firstly, I attended a Slut Walk and it wasn’t just ‘scantilly dressed women’. There were men, women and children in all kinds of clothes (it was Melbourne winter, so mostly coats) protesting against victim blaming and shaming.

    And secondly, men will stare at women regardless of what they wear. Office clothes, gym clothes, jeans and a t shirt, trackies at the supermarket… It’s not only when you ‘get the girls out’ that men stare.

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    • Gen

      That is soooo true! My boyfriend thinks hospital scrubs and harem pants are sexy…

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    • georgiepie

      YES! I had a guy chat me up when I was wearing running shorts, daggy old runners and a singlet with holes in it…and I was sweaty. and smelt bad.

      tell you what I was flattered!

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      • Me Myself I

        I was sitting in a bar, a nice one, waiting for some friends when a man dropped $100 in front of me and said ‘let’s go girly’!!! I had on long trousers and a buttoned to the neck shirt!!! I don’t think I had much makeup on either. Still puzzles me.

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  19. vivacious

    For me this issue comes down to my pet peeve – manners.

    If you are dressed provocatively, it shouldn’t surprise you when you get attention, after all why did you dress that way? However I think we have the right to expect that attention to be polite and if it is rebuffed, to go away. There is nothing wrong with a corny pick up line, but it is when it is followed by intimidating or persistent behavior that it gets scary.

    Case in point, last weekend was the multicultural festival in Canberra. I was wearing traditional German costume, which because it looks like what everyone now thinks of as a beer wench and is short (it was my mother’s originally) always gets some attention. So it would be completely disingenuous of me to be upset when I get attention while wearing it. And I did, and luckily the guys were all lovely and didn’t bother me after I said I wasn’t interested, although I have also been in situation where guys wouldn’t take no for an answer and friends had to step in.

    So I guess my point is, if we are all polite, girls should be able to wear what they want and guys should be able to approach them, but we should all be polite and respectful in our responses.

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    • Lulu

      “However I think we have the right to expect that attention to be polite and if it is rebuffed, to go away.”

      Exactly.

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    • picardie.girl

      I agree – if everyone has good manners, then both sides should be able to get on angst-free.

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    • kateb

      exactly

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  20. polyglut

    Right on, Jane. Lucky there are others who are focusing on the real issues, rather than providing pseudo-analysis of “problems” like saucy women who hate being looked at – I mean, does anyone actually know any women who behave the way Bettina suggests? I sure don’t: http://polyglut.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/her-titties-made-me-do-it-and-other-fanciful-tales-by-betting-arndt-vs-eve-ensler-and-her-vagina-rocking-revolution/

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    • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

      I had a good chuckle at your post. Very nicely done:)

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    • Susan As Well

      Well worth reading … thank you :)

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    • vegas

      Oh that’s brilliant – I thoroughly enjoyed that! See you on the dance floor!

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    • Kate

      Brilliant!

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  21. Emma

    I think it comes down to this – women are more evolved then men (not all but the majority) and so unfortunately sometimes we need to take actions into our own hands and take responsibility for our own safety.

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    • The wounded bull

      A great, well structured argument for the new age. How about blokes start sitting at the back of the bus too.

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    • redballoon

      Wow.
      You have managed to insult everyone on the planet!
      Good work.

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  22. Alex

    Catherine Deveny takes the piss:

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3827136.html

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    • That is a 100% accurate description of what Catherine Deveny has done…

      I would also describe it as lazy criticism and verging on gas-lighting…but we know that Catherine Deveny is biased against Bettina Arndt and is bringing that bias to the way she has critiqued the original article…

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      • Lulu

        “but we know that ”

        And some of us who dislike Bettina Arndt’s article do so because ‘we know that’ she has a certain history of writing from a certain perspective.

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      • Anonymous

        No, what she did was pull apart the lack of logic that Bettina uses. Go back to Arnt’s sources and see who she’s quoting and where she’s getting her information from. It wasn’t a serious article that was actually trying to say something or to bring a new point of view to the issue. It wasn’t based on anything. It was just abusing women to forment outrage. It was click bait. Fairfax should be ashamed of themselves.

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        • Kylie2's Husband

          As should the Drum and Mamamia for perpetuating the cycle. The media has become so self referential it’s about to disappear ups its fundamental. Bettina’s article was a shocker. Move on to something constructive rather than keeping the crap spinning.

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    • Susan As Well

      It’s Deveney at her best and Arndt? She couldn’t possibly get any worse than this weekend’s article.

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    • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

      I don’t normally have a lot of respect for Catherine, but dammit, that is a brilliant article! She totally nailed my thoughts, and it gave me a good laugh

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    • essessesse

      Catherine has done a brilliant job.

      I can’t stand it when men stare at my chest. I’m not imagining it, they stare. Not Bettina’s ’3 second glance’ either. Okay, so I’ve got a decent pair of knockers, but they’re not freakish, they’re not ‘on display’, they’re just attached to the front of me. Short of binding them I can’t do anything about them. I’ve snapped my fingers in front of mens faces before now and told them to look up at my face. Still, I guess that must be the magnet in my chest…..

      A friend of mine had a boss (he was 10 years younger) who was known for staring at the female employees boobs. When one woman pulled him on it he blinked slowly and said, “I didn’t think anyone noticed.” Not “Sorry.” He didn’t think anyone noticed.

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  23. Anonymous

    II read the Age article over the weekend as well and was a bit torn.

    On the one hand, I agree that some women do dress to attract attention. I am a straight female and have glanced at overtly exposed cleavage myself, to be torn to shreds for it is probably unfair. I am aware of it most often when I’m at work and a colleague is in something low cut… it can be just as distracting and difficult to avoid for a (straight) woman sitting opposite you and your boobs in a Board meeting as it is for a man!

    However there is a fine line between a polite glance and blatant ogling, the former I believe is ok, the latter can make a woman feel uncomfortable and so is not ok (as can wolf whistling or yelling comments…. It should go without saying that physical contact is absolutely not on) dressing in a certain way does not excuse bad behaviour from those looking at you. Perhaps I’m naïve in assuming that any normal person can work this out though? I actually find Arndt’s implication that men are dumb, helpless creatures that are so driven by their penises that they can’t tell the difference between a socially acceptable, discrete glance and a drooling stare quite insulting. As for those poor confused men who can’t decide if the woman in questions wants their attention or not, if in doubt – don’t do it!

    I personally find that I get unwanted attention from men regardless of what I wear. At 5”9 and with a slim, athletic build and blonde hair I fit a certain mould that some men deem ‘attractive’ and so whether I’m in my ultra conservative work clothes or dolled up in a short skirt and heels for a night out I tend to find that heads will turn when I walk by. Some might say this is a good problem to have and I’m certainly not saying my life is made difficult because of it – however I do find it intimidating sometimes and it always makes me feel very self conscious, especially if there’s a group of three or more men doing it, or if they’re being particularly obvious (nudging one another, making a point of turning to watch me walk past etc) or if they’ve been drinking. I don’t do a thing to invite the attention, I was born the way I look and I don’t like it when it happens – yet Arndt seems to be saying that if I am wearing a single thing that could be deemed ‘sexy’ then it’s my fault they’re staring. So, am I allowed to feel a bit pissed off about it when they stare at me when I’m wearing my work suit but not allowed to be when I’m wearing a short skirt even though the response is usually the same? Where do we draw the line at what is acceptable for women to wear or look like before we shift the blame for to them?

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    • Anonymous

      ugh, excuse all the typos etc – half an eye on work, half an eye on MM today!!

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  24. BatGirl

    There are a lot of people commenting on Bettina blaming women for men’s actions – this is not my take of her opinions at all. Her point is that everyone has to take responsibility for what happens in our society – men need to behave appropriately and non offensively toward women, and women should dress in a way that makes them comfortable yet be aware of the attention they may get. Fair enough. .

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    • Susan

      Maybe… But there is a difference between taking responsibility and overly taking responsibility, which is what I’d suggest she’s down.

      We are all responsible for our own actions and the reasonable impact that they have… But is their reaction your responsibility?

      You might just like the colour of a dress that you pick out and the impact is that somebody wants to motorboat you… Not really something you should take responsibilty for unless your intention was to get people to want to motorboat you.

      For example…

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      • BatGirl

        Yes but Bettina is not talking about the colour of a dress, is she??

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        • Susan

          That’s my point, Batgirl…
          You may not even factor “cleavage or greater exposure” in to what what you choose to wear..

          Therefore, what do you base responsibility on:
          Outcome or intention?

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      • Dah

        What does motorboat mean?

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    • I’m glad to know I’m not alone in my opinion…I think a lot of commentators are bringing pre-conceptions and bias to the article and reading a lot more into it that really exists…

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      • picardie.girl

        I actually think the title sets them up with that bias. It’s inflammatory, to say the least.

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        • And the photo Fairfax used…looked like something from a Benny Hill sketch

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  25. ravensthorne

    I am now a mother in my 40s, overweight and daggy, and used to being sexually invisible. But in my younger, slimmer, days, especially working in a male-dominated industry, my ample bosom used to attract attention all the time. Covered or not, I was very rarely looked in the eye when talking to men. “Getting the girls out” is not always an option when they are always on show!

    I have also been treated like dirt by any number of men who deemed me unworthy of attention, whether I was looking for it or not. And some of the most sleazy, obnoxious men have been the best looking ones who just KNOW they’re special because society tells them they are based entirely on their looks. Beauty and sexual attractiveness on the outside are definately no guarantee of beauty on the inside.

    It would be nice if we could all agree that nice bits will get looked at, without leering or touching, and when talking to other people, generally it’s nice to be nice!!

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  26. Zelicat

    I am a bit well, torn on this one. I know fit a fact that what you are wearing does not provoke your average man in to sexual assault or rape. Hell your clothing doesn’t provoke a deranged serial rapist into assault. How can a seven year old girl in her pajamas be “provocative” ? A girl in her school uniform. Rape and sexual violence have nothing to do with desire. I utterly reject the notion that inside every man there is a potential rapest looking for the opportunity. I know far too many good and kind men to buy into that notion.

    But, I have dressed to attract attention. When I first met my husband, he had only ever seen me in uniform. I went to a work function in the most stunning backless number to catch his eye. Problem with that was, it caught a lot of other people’s eye too. I was looked at and chatted up ( and towards the end if the night, one of my soldiers tried to grope me- it didn’t end well). I remember being intensely uncomfortable with the attention. It was a floor length gown, it did not show cleavage but it was sexy. I had no idea when I left the house in that dress of the response it would provoke. I wanted to catch my ( now) husbands attention. Not the 50 year old bloke with the beer gut. I look back now and think how naive I was. One outfit ( which by must standards is not out and out sexy) caused me a lot of problems as a young woman in a male dominated work place. Who was to blame for that situation? Me or my male colleagues? Both? No-one!

    What JJ said below rings true to me. I can choose how I dress, but I can’t choose people’s response to how I dress.

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    • Just a Nice Bloke

      Here is the dilemma for us blokes. A girl dresses provocatively to attract a particular guy at work. Said guy is a decent bloke and politely ignores the bits hanging out. He respects women and also doesn’t want to be branded a perv for having a good look and responding to this attention in a non social setting. Said girl receives the attention she was looking for, but from other males in office and doesn’t like it. The mating signals were being “broadcasted” not targeted. Who caused the problem?

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  27. picardie.girl

    I really liked another part of Bettina’s article, where psychotherapist Rob Tiller says, “I think it’s a real catch-22 for most men. We really do want to be respectful but that’s not always easy with a neon pink G-string staring up at us.”

    That said, I do agree with Jane above that men and women should both take responsibility for their own sexual reactions, behaviour and pleasure.

    Some women could be a little less aggressive with their sexuality, and some men could take a bit more responsibility for their own reactions.

    My manager’s always talking about Italy, where women are pleased when they get attention, and men are allowed to look and express their admiration. It seems backward in some ways, but in others, everything is clearer.

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    • Victoria

      I hope you don’t think I’m being rude but on the one hand, you have said that ‘some women could be a little less aggressive with their sexuality’ and also that in Italy, it is less confusing for everyone when men and ‘allowed to look and express their admiration’. I can’t help but think there is something unfair about that? Surely male sexuality comes across as aggressive when men comment often about women’s looks while women are expected to be less sexually aggressive? And I’m not sure Italian machismo sets particularly desirable gender stereotypes?

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      • picardie.girl

        I don’t think Italian machismo sets desirable gender stereotypes either! It is quite backward.

        I didn’t mean to hold it up as the ideal – far from it – just wanted to mention that it does seem clearer to everyone what the expectations are. Here, it seems that guys are confused because they want to be respectful, and women are confused because they want to be respected and be able to flaunt themselves whenever they want.

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  28. Carolyn

    Maybe I’m hanging out in all the wrong places, but it seems to me that women-who-get-their-tits-out-and-then-complain-about-men-looking and beta-males-who-can’t-handle-looking-at-what-they-can’t-have are such a tiny minority that it seems ridiculous to write an article about it in the first place.
    Sure it’s frustrating being oggled, and sure it’s frustrating being rejected, but most adults accept that that’s just part of life and get on with it. Is anyone really being traumatised here?
    I’m not familiar with Arndt’s work, but I’m guessing that the reason she is concerned about such a non-issue is part of a bigger agenda.

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    • Nicki

      “Maybe I’m hanging out in all the wrong places, but it seems to me that women-who-get-their-tits-out-and-then-complain-about-men-looking and beta-males-who-can’t-handle-looking-at-what-they-can’t-have are such a tiny minority that it seems ridiculous to write an article about it in the first place.”

      Totally agree with this statement! I think Bettina is using a straw (wo)man argument.

      I don’t have much cleavage to speak of, but even I’ve had my fair share of unwanted male attention, such as when I was a ten year old, wearing my sport uniform! I think Bettina is trivialising an issue that many woman have to deal with at some stage of their lives.

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  29. suki

    Jane- life is too short to read Bettina and definitely far to short to write about her. Most of the time what she is saying is incomprehenisble but y’know it must be considered “out there” for a woman to be blaming other women for things men do so she keeps getting published. Yawn.

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    • vanessayoung

      Bettina used (many years ago) to be quite an exciting commentator on women’s issues and on sexuality. Now she is just an example, to me, of how I don’t want aging to colour my view of today’s young women and their choices.

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  30. Kylie L

    I agree with Jane AND I agree with Bettina. I hope that’s possible. Both, to me, have valid points. At the core of it, the point is this: every adult, male or female, needs to take repsonsibility for their actions.
    Men: no leering/drooling over exposed flesh and then complaining/arguing that you were provoked.
    Women: No man, or the reaction of a man, should dictate what you wear and how you wear it- but if you choose to dress in a manner that invites attention (however that may be: tight/short/head to toe paisley, gorilla suit, etc.), don’t complain that you got attention.

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    • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

      Here’s how I see it. No one’s saying men shouldn’t look if it’s out there. But, there’s a difference between looking, and leering or ogling. One is respectful and the other is not.

      One treats the woman like a vessel without feelings, and the other remembers that under the scant clothing is a person with rights and feelings too.

      I don’t buy Bettina’s argument that unattractive men cop all the nastiness from women.I’ve only ever been rude to men, ugly or attractive, who’ve behaved disgustingly towards me in their comments or actions.

      I’ve never been rude to a male who charmingly told me I looked nice, regardless of whether the man was good looking or unattractive.

      I heartily disagree with Bettina on this ‘up yours’ theory she has going.

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    • picardie.girl

      Really well said, Kylie. I completely agree!

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      • Kylie L

        Thanks :) I don’t agree with everything Bettina said, and I like Sharon’s comment above yours- but I think the whole issue can be complicated, and that real life doesn’t always live up to our ideals- yet it’s real life we have to live in.

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    • MissT

      Right. I’m off to go buy me a gorilla suit! Who’s in?

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      • Kylie L

        You would look great in a gorilla suit. Or anything, really :)

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  31. Anonymous

    I think one of the points is that women will dress in a provocative manner, with the intent of meeting men or hooking up. If they succeed in attracting some hot guy, then mission complete and they’re happy. But if they attract the eyes and attention of someone not good enough for them, that’s when they cry out on abuse, perves, etc.

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    • JosieY

      I’m really uncomfortable with this comment. If I get dressed up for my husband, or to pick up some random guy, whatever, I can handle attention that is expressed in the right way. If you have a discreet look, or even come over and say hello, you’re more than welcome! But I don’t care how hot you are, if you are insulting or abusive, that’s not on. There’s a HUGE difference between (for example) a ‘Hi, I couldn’t help noticing you, can i get you a drink?’ and a ‘Phwoar! Gotta get me some of that!’. I think that when we start to acuse women of ‘crying out on abuse, pervs etc’ we minimise many women’s very real experience of this.

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    • ashamasha

      ooh here’s something I’ve wanted to rant about for THE LONGEST TIME…

      why is it that if a woman is not interested in a man, it’s automatically because she thought the guy was ‘ not good enough’ for them??? that’s been the response of the rejected mean drunk in my experience.

      That type of language automatically places the woman in the role of bitch, when in fact, the guy most often (again in my own experience) is either :

      a. drunk off his tits
      b. leering
      c. aggressive
      d. not taking the hint to walk away
      e. not my type
      f. All of the above.

      Not ONE of those is actually ‘not good enough’. the avoidance of men in the majority of that list is actually an important self preservation tool for a woman on a night out. Something you might want to think about, next time you’re rejected, hmm??

      I’m assuming you’re a man, cos I can’t remember the last time I heard a woman make a statement like yours.

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      • nonna

        I think this nails it Ashamasha. In my hey day, (not really that long ago) that was my experience as well.

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    • Faybian

      You men could be accused of the same thing, but the reality is that attraction is more than just how “hot” someone is. Just face it, not everyone thinks we’re gorgeous.

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  32. Noelle

    I think we like to pretend we’re so innocent. I mean, when I want to look sexy, I will wear a pushup bra or a tight dress. When I feel unattractive and don’t want anyone looking at me, I wear a tshirt and daggy jeans. Because I know what I’m going to attract attention in, and what I’m going to be ignored in.

    I don’t LIKE when greasy men ogle my goodies, but I like when the man I’m with loves what I look like. But I realise that if I want some men to notice my stupendous lady lumps, a lot of undesireables will notice my lady lumps too.

    Let’s stop pretending we’re not doing this for a reason – subconscious or unsubconscious. Everything we do is to gain some level of attention (from men-staring-as-we-walk-down-the-street attention, to completely-ignored-lack-of-attention attention). Next time you get your tits out for a big night out, don’t fool yourself into thinking ‘it’s for me’. It’s not.

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    • Lucy

      Like!

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    • fudgingthemenu

      I couldn’t disagree more. As a young woman I did not dress provocatively but I did dress well, entirely for my own benefit and no-one else’s. I hated, absolutely hated being stared at. One of my most joyous memories is of a boy who was so busy staring at me that he walked SMACK into a pole. I didn’t notice but the girls in the shop where I bought my lunch saw it. I was a real hero for a while there, which would seem to suggest that they didn’t didn’t like being stared at either.

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      • Susan

        SAME. Sorry Noelle… I have to disagree too.
        I’m pretty certain I dress for myself, first and foremostly.

        Call me selfish but if you dress for anyone else you’re bound to be disappointed.

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      • Sharon

        Surely there’s a fundamental difference between being noticed because you’re dressed well, and being ogled because you are dressing provocatively?

        While I agree it’s absolutely possible to dress *well* for yourself, I believe that anyone who tries to justify dressing *provocatively* as dressing for themselves is just deluded about their underlying motivation. As Noelle suggested, we may be doing this subconsiously, but we’re definitely doing it for the response it will elicit from the opposite (or in some cases same) sex.

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        • Noelle

          If you’re following fashion, style, appearance over absolute comfort, you’re dressing for other people. Because, to be honest, think about what you wear when you’re in bed (alone): for me, it’s undies and a singlet, or flannie pjs, no makeup, hair undone. One reason is that we need to be comfortable to sleep, another is that no one sees us in the confines of our bedroom – we don’t need to impress, we can just be comfortable.

          To say you dress for yourself is utter delusion.

          Also, fudgingthemenu, it’s funny that you say you ‘absolutely hated being stared at’, then you recall a memory of someone staring at your beauty so hard they walked into a pole. There’s just a little hint of smugness in there that suggests perhaps you very much enjoyed that man staring at you – and not just because he got his ‘justice’.

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          • lucy

            I understand where you are coming from. I dress in what I feel like wearing, and I wear silk and lace nightgowns or short and singlet sets to sleep in even when I am all alone.
            Does that mean I am the exception to your rule?

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      • Lulu

        Hehe, one of my favourite memories of a great comeback to leering was when I was waiting at a bus-stop several years ago, along with about 3 or 4 schoolgirls (in uniform) who were chatting amongst themselves. A couple of men rode past on bicycles, clearing leering at the schoolgirls, and one of the girls briefly broke off her conversation with her friends to yell out “STOP STARING, YOU PERVERT”

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        • The wounded bull

          What a fantastically clever and witty response. Thanks for sharing.

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    • JosieY

      I’m also bothered by the difference between ‘dressing welll’ and ‘dressing provocatively’. Provocative to who? Who gets to decide? Me or you? Or him/her over there? This issue as I see it is NOT about people noticing your lady lumps (like) but how they choose to express that notice.

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  33. amc

    It’s not just men that see cleavage. As a straight married woman, I am often unable to help noticing. Just like car crashes and bad TV, some cleavage is so inescapable that no-one can look away. And when your putting it out there, your putting it out for everyone – schoolkids, old ladies, the checkout operator, your uncle…

    So I guess my rule would be wear whatever makes your feel good about yourself, as long as you’re happy for every person you meet to see you wearing it.

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    • Noelle

      Agreed. I’m constantly checking out girls’ boobs and bums. I can’t help it. They are sort of wonderful.

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      • La Bella Figura

        Me too! I love checking out those girls with half their arses hnaging out of their denim cutoffs! I love checking out tits in the office when I’m in a management meeting as well as totally inappropriate thigh highs!

        It’s a win win situation! I’m straight, I’m married, I’m highly sexual and give me a break all the women who say they don’t dress to be looked at by men or women. When getting dressed in the morning I’m sure you didn’t think I’m going to wear those arse chunk hanging denim shorts in public because I don’t want to be stared at?!

        So men who are ‘not your type’ can’t look at you without making you feel uncomfortable? But the sexy office guy can? Funny…Ted Bundy was a goodlooking guy too. Looks can be deceiving ladies. If you want to dress with everything hanging out don’t be surprised if you are getting stared at either.

        Rape is about power. You don’t even have to look ‘vulnerable’. I was raped at 19 by my then boyfriend. He was very goodlooking. Rapists come in all shapes and sizes.

        Sure Italians are probably more vocal about their comments towards women, I’m half Italian. It’s part of the culture and this will never change. But woman do handle these comments differently. Here in Australia women who dress to impress and be ogled and pretend they haven’t dressed that way act like it’s an insult to receive stares and comments.

        I’ve lost count te times I’ve seen women insult men for giving them an honest compliment because they were not their type and flirt with the goodlooking types.

        Maybe it’s the delivery of the comment by men. But ladies please don’t say you are dressing for yourself when you might have half your arse hanging out of your cutoffs.

        Great post Noelle.

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  34. An Idle Dad

    I think Bettina’s article had two separate points – first that when women dress to enhance their sexuality, men will look, including men who the woman does not find attractive in return – and that to find that offensive is slightly ridiculous.

    I put this in the ‘duh’ bucket. I’ll look. It’s not rape. In the absence of anything else (wolf whistling, pulling faces or really long stares) a glace is not offensive either. If you get upset, next time I’ll look when you aren’t looking. But I won’t stop looking, that’s pretty much impossible.

    The second part seemed to be that these ‘beta males’ are all banging their hands against their heads wondering how to be more attractive and getting frustrated about ‘the display’. These men don’t need women to cover up; they need to get some more maturity. Attraction is a game of the blessed and the cursed, but everyone can play and usually find a partner (an overgeneralisation, perhaps, but one that applies to both women and men equally). These men won’t be more attractive and find a girlfriend if women cover up – that makes no sense whatsoever. I put the second argument in the ‘WTF’ bucket.

    Now, that said… the reaction on Twitter was that any discussion of how women dress is simply pro-burka dog whistling. I disagree. People identify one extreme, a full body covering – and suggest that there is no limit in the other direction. I don’t think that’s true.

    I once heard a quote “The opposite of peace is not war; the opposite of peace is slavery. A civilisation can be judged on how it explores the middle ground”. It applies here.

    I think a realistic discussion can admit that, when talking on the respect of women’s rights, there is the burka slavery on one side, and Rhianna’s S&M video slavery on the other. And a giant gulf of available dress inbetween. The shackles of not being allowed to be sexy are no less real than the shackles of having to be sexy.

    Exploring that idea, as Bettina does, and its implications are not offensive in itself. I think she’s bang on the money in the first part, and I’m not sold in the second.

    In no way has she ‘set feminism back 100 years’.

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    • an idle admirer

      Idle,

      You’ve hit the nail on the head.

      Men live in an era of “DON’T”.

      Of course it’s confusing.

      I don’t always agree with Bettina Arndt and I certainly don’t consider her an ‘apologist’, but men need a voice.

      Imagine if a man had written that article!!

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      • An Idle Dad

        I’d hope anyone, man or women, who used that second argument would get a ribbing!

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      • redballoon

        Men already have a voice. Lots of them.
        Bettina certainly does Not speak for sensible, non-victim- blamey men.

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    • Kylie L

      I think I love you.

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      • An Idle Dad

        Thanks, but you still can’t touch my goodies. :)

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        • Can she look?

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          • An Idle Dad

            Sure.

            See how easy that is? Now we’re all getting along.

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          • Kylie L

            Hah! I was just about to ask the same question. I’m going to anyway. ;)

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      • picardie.girl

        I think I love him too.

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    • La Bella Figura

      100% idle dad one of the best comments I’ve ever seen on MM. Have Al Green singing in the background for you.

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    • Noelle

      Thank you, some sanity!

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  35. Butler Did It

    Oh for god sakes!! We live in a free western country a woman can dress how she bloody well pleases and not let it be an invitation for rape, harassment or lurid comments.
    Instead of focusing on woman how about the men who cannot control their urges, what are they apes!!! Jesus, I feel like everyday women take one step forward and two back, especially when idiots like Bettina Arndt’s archaic views get published.

    Everyone grow up, man keep your hands to yourselves, and woman if men don’t. Press charges.

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    • The wounded bull

      It was the eyeballs she was talking about, not hands.

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  36. Tessy

    My BF and I were discussing this yesterday after reading the Arndt article in the paper, so I was really interested to read this post. Glad to say that Caro does such a good job of clearly articulating what I could not yesterday.

    Thanks!

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  37. Miss B

    This is always such a tricky topic…yes, we should all have the right to dress how we want, but at the end of the day, most people get their boobs out and wear the butt-skimming shorts for attentions.

    As human beings we crave acceptance. So when our peer group is dressing a particular way and applying certain grooming techniques (ie fake tans, hair extensions, caked-on makeup) we also feel we should do something similar to be accepted.

    A great example of this are shows like Jersey Shore, and it’s English counterpart, Geordie Shore. They flippantly make comments like “if you live in Newcastle you HAVE to have a tan.”

    While secure grown-ups would take those comments with a grain of salt, impressionable young adults take that seriously.

    I do believe everyone should dress however they want, but I think they need to think about WHY they’re dressing that way in the first place.

    If it’s to get male attention, fine, but don’t then turn around and be upset when you get the attention you were looking for in the first place.

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    • Susan

      I would like to think that even young, impressionable people would be able to notice that orange is not a colour that humans are supposed to be….

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      • Miss B

        Haha, I agree!

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  38. captainsplashy

    I don’t necessarily agree with Bettina Arndt all the time, but I have read The Sex Diaries, and I think it’s a fairly reductive statement to say that Arndt’s book/s “blames women for starving their husbands of sex.” Jane herself admits that sex is complex – how about recognising the complexity of Arndt’s views?

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  39. katehunter

    On the occasions when I’ve ‘got the girls out’ and worn a particular dress, the only comments I get are compliments from my girlfriends. Haven’t noticed a lot of ogling from fellas.

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    • Miss B

      I’m assuming that you are “getting the girls out” in a tasteful way though, Kate.
      That’s why the gals appreciate it more than the fellas ;-)
      I think Bettina’s article is more about girls actually flashing their whole boobs or showing the goods in a trashy way.
      :-)

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      • katehunter

        But who’s to say what’s trashy? Bettina?

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        • Susan

          Tasteful-cleavage? I’m confused….

          Is that the same as church-cleavage?

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        • Max

          But this is the whole point. As a man if i complimented you on looking sexy or hot you’d probably accuse me of being a sexist pig but in reality you know that i’ll probably be looking and passing judgement in my head anyway along with everyone else who sees how you are dressed.

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          • katehunter

            My girlfiends don’t say I look sexy or hot. They say, ‘Ooh, you’ve got the girls out. You look great!’ Or something similar. You as a bloke are allowed to say I look nice, lovely, happy etc. There are heaps of excellent words to choose from …

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            • IJ

              So is a man allowed to say “Oh you’ve got the girls out” too?
              I read Bettina’s article yesterday and I do think it can be confusing for men.

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            • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

              IJ, it depends. How long has that man known the woman for? Has he been friends with her for years, or has he just met her?

              Because my partner is my best friend, and he’s the only bloke who could get away with saying that

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          • Susan

            Max!

            If everyone said what was on there mind all the times…
            We’d all have diagnoses of serious mental health issues!

            Big difference if I actually expressed everything we though. HUGE.

            We’re so lucky that as adults we have control over what we do and what we say…

            If you have trouble with that: perhaps, seek professional help

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            • Max

              The point that you’re missing is that whether you like it or not you’re being judged on how you’re dressed. Most people in a workplace would rather snipe behind someone’s back (taken form experience again) than be forthright and honest. Sexual manipulation has been around since the dawn of man and yet with the new age of feminism it seems to be the one thing that women can’t agree on whether it should be accepted or deplored.

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            • Susan

              So… Max… your question is “Do feminists see sexual manipulation as a thing to be accepted or to be deplored?”

              Depends on what woman you ask; on what day; on what time; depending on where she is…

              I’d be surprised if you got a homogenous response from men on that one too…

              “How do the societal norms work around that?” is a pretty valid question though…. I’d say we all err on the caution and that R-E-S-P-E-C-T is critical. I can’t help think of the quote from the Little Princess “All girls are princesses; some of them just don’t know it”

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            • Max

              Sorry to have to reply up here but it won’t let me comment on yours. If we apply your little princess quote we’d have all of the forward thinking neo feminists kicking up a stink because we cant tell a little girl she looks pretty or like a princess anymore. And then they’d complain because all that the princesses do in fairy tales look pretty and wait for their fairy prince to save them.

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            • Susan

              See, I am one of those neo-feminists of whom you speak…

              It’s not a literal quote…. It just means ; treat people with respect even if they don’t have any for them self.

              And, yes, it goes both ways too.

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        • Miss B

          Hmmm, you’re right…who decides? You should.
          But we all know there is a difference between doing this tastefully and doing it in a trashy way.

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    • Mary Christmas

      Totes agree Kate, my girls are admired by other girls!
      And I have sported variously ‘trashy’ and ‘clarssy’ cleavage.

      It’s trashy cos I have big norgs and sometimes food falls into my bra.

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  40. Helen W

    Nice one Jane, as usual!

    I read Bettina’s article and I now understand the irreparable psychic damage women are inflicting on men by telling them off for staring at their boobs – oh, c’mon!

    Really, what’s the harm here? So a women with prominently displayed breasts tells off a man she doesn’t fancy for checking out her rack, but is happy if one she does like notices? Ok, mixed messages and all that, a little bit of embarrassment (maybe on both sides), but surely not psychologically crushing?

    Bettina’s writing consistently presents men as wounded victims of women, which I find really strange, as this this “victim” mentality is something commonly projected onto women.

    The collateral damage of male and female relationships definitely goes both ways. I won’t pretend women don’t hurt men – and whoa, vice versa.

    I think men can sneak a look and still respect women. Honestly. I would also argue both sexes kind of enjoy looking at breasts. But far more worrying are the common perceptions around sexual assault – such as “she was really drunk” so she was fair game. These are the beliefs we need to push to change.

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    • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

      I also believe that if a woman is rude to a man over something like this, more often than not it’s because sometimes men can’t find a way to give a compliment without making a dickhead of themselves and being derogatory

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  41. Lulu

    If a woman is wearing anything short of a burqa, there will always be someone somewhere who thinks she’s a flesh-flashing slut.

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    • The wounded bull

      There is just a slight difference between a burqa and what you see girls wearing in town on saturday nights.

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      • Lulu

        Wow, really???? I had no idea!!!!

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    • nonna

      And aren’t we lucky we live in a country where we can tell a man to go to hell at the very suggestion that we should be covering up from head to toe.

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  42. AJS

    Golda Meir. The ORIGINAL Iron Lady.

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  43. Anonymous

    I think Bettina is saying – if you dress for attention – whether you’re a male or female (which a lot of women AND men do and if you wear something short or tight or revealing and don’t expect to attract attention well then you’re probably a little delusional) you can’t be annoyed when you do get it, especially from people, be it male or female, that you may not find attractive or want attention from.

    I’m proud of my boobs, happy to dress to show them off, don’t care if people look at them because really even if I didn’t dress to show them off, I can’t hide them because they’re so bloody big!

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    • Rick Morton

      I struggled with this part. I guess it’s about being free enough to dress for attention but still having the reasonable expectation that that attention doesn’t become harassment or uncomfortable?

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  44. Max

    Sometimes i wonder if, in this day and age anyone even reads the articles before launching into an opinion online. This might suprise you but as a male who works in just about an all female office i have found that when a female walks in with a little bit more cleavage or leg on show every one in the office notices and comments. The whole point is that if you are showing off a little bit more skin than usual then surely you’re expecting people to take notice. And on another point if a male walked in to an office wearing skin tight pants with a bulge protruding would a woman take a peek or turn the other way without paying any attention? Why is it such a crime to admire the human form anyway?

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  45. Susan

    While Bettina doesn’t really warrant a response, I just wish I could flash my cleavage at her…. If that’s how she’d interpret it!

    On a side note, it’s apparent I need to read more about Golda Meir. Legend.

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    • Why doesn’t she warrant a response? Just asking…

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      • Susan

        I read your previous comments and I get that you think we are being dismissive…

        I profess to not being very well acquainted with her work (I’m going to blame geography here as her column isn’t in print where I live.)

        I don’t think that she’s raising any valid points.
        I bet in the turn of the century, the same was said about flashing one’s ankle.

        I’m not convinced that you can draw the line to determine how people dress, without causing an absolute uproar. Clothing is an expression many things: taste, political views, income, religon etc… Try drawing up a work-place clothing policy without offending someone!

        And… can I add to this that I don’t think that designers are taking into account the fact that our bodies are changing due to better nutrition. Women are bustier than ever before- that’s a fact. You try finding a work shirt that will fit the average-sized woman.

        Unfortunately, try as you might, you can’t just carry around your boobs in a handbag.

        So, I’d suggest: People have bodies. If anyone has issues with this in our (small l) liberal, warm country, they may need to consult with a therapist.

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        • I’ve had a long history with Bettina (err…that doesn’t sound right)…

          I used to listen to her radio show when I was a teenager (early 80s?) and have to admit I learnt a lot about sex and sexuality from the program…

          …and I’ve been reading her stuff ever since…as IdleDad says above, sometimes she nails things and sometimes she doesn’t…but I still think it’s important that her voice is heard…she’s a smart woman, but she does see the world from an unusual angle…but I kind of like that…

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          • Susan

            I agree that her opinion is expressed in a way that is articulate and makes you think.

            Clearly, she’s a great conversation starter!

            She must be having a bit of fun with it too though. I’m a fan of throwing unpopular ideas out there, just to see what people come up with.

            That said, she is a woman, but I’m not sure that she’s a Sister… If you know what I mean? Her article is kind of throwing people with cleavage under a proverbial bus there, is it not?

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        • Nicki

          “Unfortunately, try as you might, you can’t just carry around your boobs in a handbag.” Gold, I love it :)

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  46. Nicky Champ

    This paragraph from Bettina’s article made me feel a bit sick:

    “That mighty chasm is indeed wide and growing, with so many women now feeling absolutely entitled to dress as they like – bare tits, enticing flesh squeezed into the shortest, tightest clothing.”

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    • Wendy

      There’s a time and a place for everything. You can’t expect to be able dress however you want, and then expect to be able to control the responses you receive in reaction to how you are dressed.

      While we can’t control how others react to us, it doesn’t mean that we can totally absolve ourselves of all responsibility for our actions either.

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      • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

        That’s just it, though. A man can say, ‘you look lovely’, and that’s not at all offensive. I’ve when men sometimes describe what they want to do to you in great detail, yell out, ‘show us yer tits luv’, or ask if your breasts are real, that’s stepping over a line no matter what the woman is wearing.

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        • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

          It’s when, not ‘I’ve when’

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  47. blondeink

    Bettina Arndt seems more concerned about men than women.

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    • The wounded bull

      So, I take it you have a similar negative view when men stand up on issues that effect women?

      Good on her, we hear very little in the media re male specific issues and topics.

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      • OssieLeo

        You keep on harping about male issues and how no one talks about them…

        so you poor confused male, do you think it’s ok to aggresively pursue a woman because she is showing a cleavage? Isn’t that the whole point of this article? Are you so confused by the apparent mixed messages that us women send you that you think it’s ok to be derrogatory, aggresive and abusive towards a woman based on the way she dressed?

        I am genuinly am interested about the male’s state of confusion in all of this….

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        • The wounded bull

          I just dont know where to begin with that offensive reply.

          Poor confused male? Why, because I dare offer a different opinion to you.

          Where did I say it was ok to be derrogatory, aggressive and abusive to women?

          Do you just create your own reality ossieleo?

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          • OssieLeo

            Read the article which says that Bettina thinks that Males are confused…

            And Yes, WB, I do like to create my own realist but in this case, I believe that your comment was silly and unnecessary.

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            • AJ

              “Poor confused male”, “silly and unnecessary”.

              These are the jibes of someone lacking the capacity to make a valid point in the absence of emotional reasoning.

              Feminist shaming tactic – “harping on about male issues”

              You can’t make this stuff up. You actually dismiss conversation as verbiage in order to dismiss the validity of the content.

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            • OssieLeo

              Can’t reply to AJ but will reply here. WB always brings up at every chance possible how articles are against males etc. His comment in this instance was irrelevant as the article is talking about males taking responsibility for their actions rather than blaming the way women dress.

              Whist it always good to use big words to argue your point AJ, in this case unnecessary. Poor confused male came from the above article, meaning that poor men are so confused by women’s actions and don’t know how to behave.

              I did not make any stuff up, just brought up my view on his comment. Did not try to shame or any other action you may want to use big words for.

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      • blondeink

        Negative view? I merely stated that Bettina seems more concerned about how men feel or are treated and why we have to justify it.

        As pointed out by Jane, we (women) shouldn’t have to change the way we do things because men don’t take responsibility for their actions.

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  48. Lizi

    Awesome comments, Jane! I read the article in the Age, too, decided it must be slow news week and went off to have a more intellectually stimulating conversation – with my cat.

    My husband was more incensed than I was about the idea implicit in the article that all men are randy adolescents who can’t keep it in their pants when flashed with a bit of cleavage. Puhleeez …

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  49. Emily

    Lol read this yesterday and thought to myself mmmm wonder if this will make it to Mamamia. So glad it did, thanks for addressing it.

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    • Lizi

      Same here – now let the fun begin …

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  50. The wounded bull

    How did I know this would get an negative airing on mm.

    If you took the time to read the entire article, the main thrust is that women that put it out there have to expect to be looked at, and not just from the small percentage of men the women may be trying to attract.

    Women can be downright horrible to men they deem beneath them, so much as look when you are not the target audience and expect an expletive laden response.

    Men are wired to look, no women will ever change millions of years of evolution.

    Bettina is a breath of fresh air in writing from a mans perspective in a media landscape that is now very very skewed to womens issues.

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    • Rick Morton

      I think Jane gives men more credit than Bettina does. So ‘negative’ airing might be an overstretch there, WB.

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    • Ella89

      Men can be downright horrible to women they deem beneath them.. it goes both ways. Rude people are rude full stop

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      • The wounded bull

        Where did I say it couldn’t go both ways. Sheesh. The article was not addressing other issues however. Are women the untouchables, cant ever suggest anything negative without getting strips torn off.

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        • Ella89

          I don’t even know how to reply to you- I wasn’t trying to tear strips off you just pointing out that you made a massive generalisation – I’m sure most of those women would be just as horrible to me (a women) if I was leering at them too.

          Also I think you’re jumping the gun just a tad to suggest women are ‘untouchables’…

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    • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

      No one’s expecting men not to look, but do it with respect.

      And not all women are as rude as you insinuate to men out of their league.

      Oh yes, the media sure is skewed towards the men, isn’t it? I, for one, am sick to death of women’s sport taking over tv, the newspapers, why can’t they ever support men’s sport? Oh, hang on…

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      • The wounded bull

        I am not talking sport, just as I dont suggest drama series count as being ‘womens issues’. Thats called entertainment.

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        • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

          When you say ‘the media’, I will take any section of the media and throw it back in your face to disprove your point. Sport is just one.

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        • The wounded bull

          If you honestly say we see as many articles in the media covering mens health an wellbeing issues, then you need to read a lot more.

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          • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

            They’re out there. Perhaps not as much. I put that down more to there not being the demand from men, though. How many men want to write about it?

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            • The wounded bull

              So, let me get this straight, you are throwing it back in my face and disproving me….by agreeing with me. Ok.

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            • Sharon @ Funken Wagnel

              LOL! You know you got me on that one :)

              But honestly, if the men wanted it, it’d be there more, don’t you think? How many men care about that stuff?

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            • The wounded bull

              ;-)

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            • Nicki

              Yep, Men’s Health comes to mind. Perhaps men just aren’t as interested in health and beauty as women seem to be – most of the health and beauty article I see are trying to part me with my money…..

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    • Anonymous

      I agree with your take on it. I thought she made some valid points in the article. If you dress to “impress” you won’t only get feedback from those you deem acceptable.

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    • Moi

      “Men are wired to look, no women will ever change millions of years of evolution”

      Perving’s an exclusively male biological imperative?? Pull the other one Wounded Bull.

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      • The wounded bull

        Where did I say exclusive. And as a man, I can say it is. Find me any man that thinks otherwise.

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        • Moi

          Umm, you said ‘men’ are wired to look, not ‘people’ are wired to look…seems like a gender specific comment to me.

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          • The wounded bull

            Um, the entire article is about men looking, hence why thats what we are all talking about.

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    • BatGirl

      I agree Wounded Bull, as a woman I feel womens issues get a lot of air time, but male issues/concerns are swept under the carpet. I like Bettina, and I like the fact there is a woman helping some men put into words how they feel. Her points are relevant, if you dress to be looked at you will get looked at! Her book The Sex Diaries is interesting and helped me understand just how important sex with the person they love is to a man.

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    • Nicki

      Hey WB, did you know that in some cultures, breasts are just breasts? The only way men (and women) are “wired” to look at them, is because OUR culture has turned breasts into a sexual fetish.

      Just saying.

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      • The wounded bull

        Men the world over are very visual and will look, regardless of whether a breast, a mean set of elongated neck rings or giant ear lobes float their boat. I never mentioned breasts specifically.

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        • Nicki

          Well, *you* might not have, but the article is all about boobs, is it not?

          The deeper issue is that men are discouraged from taking responsibility for their sexual behaviour, and women are expected to modify their own behaviour, so not to make the men uncomfortable.

          I don’t accept that. At all.

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          • Gold coast hunk

            As a guy,out on the prowl, i always look for women in heels and a bit of cleavage ,stylishly dressed and well groomed and accessorized. (so sexy)
            If you are wearing flat shoes ladies,you are giving a subliminal signal to men that you are not interested.
            and probably won’t be approached by a guy.

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