“Women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized“. Yes, you read that right. This staggering advice was given at a campus information session at York University in Canada earlier this year by a representative of the Toronto Police Force.
When Founders of SlutWalk Sonya Barnett and Heather Jarvis first heard about this hideously out of whack advice they decided to bypass the noise and apology-demanding and march straight to the front door of the Toronto Police Service.
And they weren’t just going to march as angry women – they were going to march en masse as sluts.
According to their website the term “Slut” is being reclaimed:
We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality and feeling unsafe as a result. Being in charge of our sexual lives should not mean that we are opening ourselves to an expectation of violence, regardless if we participate in sex for pleasure or work. No one should equate enjoying sex with attracting sexual assault.
With sexual assault already a significantly under-reported crime, survivors have now been given even less of a reason to go to the Police, for fear that they could be blamed. Being assaulted isn’t about what you wear; it’s not even about sex; but using a pejorative term to rationalize inexcusable behaviour creates an environment in which it’s okay to blame the victim.
The first SlutWalk took part in Toronto on 3 April and it was a huge success with close to 2 000 women gathering to walk.
Their mission ? To reclaim the use of the word slut. To take away the power of the word from harming and damaging women and telling them that they are less worthy of protection and respect.
“It is a message of love and strength to all women (and men), especially those who have been assaulted at the core of their being.”
And now slut walking has gone global with marches in North America and Europe ready to go ahead and separate marches about to take place in Melbourne (28 May), Sydney (13 June), Brisbane (28 May) and Adelaide (11 June). More than 3500 people have already registered in Australia to march for the right to wear what they like and behave how they want without harassment.
If you want to register or find out more you can check out the Facebook page here
Here are some of the fabulous women and men who have already marched in Slutwalks around the world, everywhere from Toronto to Dallas to Boston and beyond
And if you are going on your local slutwalk, what might you wear? Anything really – because that is part of breaking down the slut stereotype. So wear what you would as you go about your normal life asking not to be raped – be it your office clothes your tracky daks, your party gear your swimmers or your jeans.
Do you think the word slut still carries a stigma? Do you use it? Do you hear it? Are we STILL living in an age where people truly believe what a woman wears gives anyone the right to rape or assault her?
Comments
192 Comments so far
Two words I really hate:
Slut & Bitch.
Why do we have these special words just for women?
I would be overjoyed to never hear either of these terms again.
Excepting the use of ‘bitch’ to describe a female dog!
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Hey anonymous – radical can be a good thing. Cheers.
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I think this whole event is making an issue out of something that is not a significant issue in Australian society anyway. Can you seriously tell me that in this day and age, victims are still blamed because of what they wear – come off it – we lost that viewpoint years ago. You will always get a tiny margin of society that hold a archaic view (like the policeman, who was reprimanded and apologised anyway) – but you can find extreme and stupid views on anything you care to look for.
And anyway, rape is mostly a crime commited by / against people who know eachother – and is about power, not sex or sexual attraction.
Seems like just an excuse to get all militant and feminst, or for others, an excuse to prance around in public wearing sexualised clothing.
It is kind of like how all those protests against the World Economic Forum had little to do with (and little understanding) of the event anyway. Just smacks of an excuse for a radical event to me.
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Nasty, anonymous crap like this is why I don’t read Mamamia much anymore.
“an excuse to prance around in public wearing sexualised clothing.” Nice. Really nice.
“Can you seriously tell me that in this day and age, victims are still blamed because of what they wear”. Yes I can.
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Hi Mia,
Let me preface this by saying – There is no excuse for rape, clothes or otherwise.
One thing that makes me curious about the slutwalk cause is its attempt to completely uncouple sexual signalling from clothes that people wear. Create a dichotomy about dress.
Yet mags (including some of the ones you’ve edited) are often putting out articles about ‘the little black dress’ etc. as the perfect thing to wear in order to seduce. The ‘what to wear on a hot date’ articles are supported by the premise that sexual attention CAN be enhanced be what is worn.
I know that wearing a good suit vs skinny jeans, scoop-necked t-shirt and a scarf will create a very different impression of who I am in those that I meet.
Slutwalk just seems to skirt around a mammoth in the room! Clothes do maketh the person as much as we dislike the superficiality of this conclusion. What you wear is a very complex social signal.
I am surprised that women, (who are probably more acutely aware of the nuance of clothing than men) arc up about this policeman’s (inescapably inept) comment.
Can you tell me with a straight face, that you choose your outfit without any thought as to where you’re heading and how you’d like to present yourself?
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Well, obviously women might dress sexily to attract a man with whom they *want* to have sex with…
But as all the women who have been raped while wearing pyjamas or tracksuits, with unshaven legs and no make-up on will attest, it really has nothing to do with what you’re wearing.
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I like Rachel Hills’ take on this: http://rachelhills.tumblr.com/post/5746899879/ask-rachel-what-are-your-thoughts-on-slutwalk
I think she would make an excellent mamamia contributor!
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I’m no longer a young woman but when I was I wore skimpy outfits because they made me feel good. I wore daring outfits to impress my friends, not male strangers.
After I was sexually assaulted I didn’t stop going out but I wore baggy tops and trousers. I was ashamed of my body. I didn’t want to draw any attention to myself. But you know what? I still got unwanted attention from drunk and not so drunk males. It’s not about the woman, it’s about the man.
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Women wear skimpy, sexually suggestive outfits purely for themselves and to please their female friends? I always knew I never understood women, but this just proves it.
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I cannot believe that the ‘what was she wearing’ argument is still being raised. I thought we were more educated than that. Rape is not about sex, it’s an act of violence, and act of aggression, and act of power.
Not so long ago a woman in her 80s was sexually assaulted in a toilet at a Melbourne train station. What was she wearing? Maybe she asked for it.
Women should be able to walk down a dark alleyway naked without fear of being assaulted. We simply don’t have that right. There should be no question of blame for the victim. The only person of blame is the perpetrator. Australians seem keen to attribute blame to victims, regardless of the crime. Why is that?
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Rape is not about what you wear.
Women wearing skimpy dresses are raped, as are women wearing baggy jumpers, or jogging clothes, or work clothes, or skinny jeans. It doesn’t matter whether you’re wearing a bikini or a burqa- you can still get raped.
Are there ways to reduce the risk of being raped? Absolutely. I’m not going to sit here and try and deny that.
Obviously, if you’re walking in a dark alleyway by yourself at night, there is an increased risk that something bad might happen to you. You might be mugged, or bashed, or verbally abused, or threatened, or raped.
But the people doing these awful things are going to do them anyway.
You might be bashed in your own home by a violent intruder. You might be mugged on your way to work in the morning. You might be raped in a relative’s house on the weekend.
If a person is murdered, we don’t assume that they were dressed or behaving in a manner that screamed “kill me!” to the murderer. Why, then, do we (even subconsciously) feel that a rape victim is partly to blame for being assaulted?
Nothing gives a person the right to have sex with someone without their consent.
Nothing.
Nothing makes it okay.
No situation can take away from the fact that sex without consent is rape.
Even if a ‘slutty’ woman is dressed ‘provocatively’, gets drunk and agrees to go home with a man she meets in a bar, she still has the right to say no to sex. If she changes her mind, she is allowed to not give consent, regardless of her actions beforehand.
It’s a lot easier to say “but she was dressed like a slut!” than it is to acknowledge the fact that these misogynistic attitudes are still so prevalent in our society.
Instead of blaming the victim, we need to start changing attitudes towards rape, especially from an early age. I’m constantly surrounded by my peers at school cracking rape jokes, or saying things like, “I totally raped you in that video game!”.
Society still trivialises rape as though it’s okay to laugh about it. As long as these attitudes prevail, and as long as women are taught that they might be partially to blame for being raped, these brutal crimes will continue to happen and will continue to go unreported.
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Unfortunately if a woman gets drunk and sleeps with a man, it’s also considered his responsibility.
If she falsely accuses him of rape, then his life will be destroyed and there are feminists lining up to tell him that he shouldn’t have been drunk or been there.
Brett Stewart was accused of sexual assault of a female.
Many prominent Australian feminist blogs assumed he was guilty, many blamed the fact that he was out drinking and should have been at home or with his girlfriend.
He was found not guilty and they still whined about how if he was with his girlfriend instead of drinking with his meathead footy pals, he wouldn’t have been accused.
Double standard?
Victim Blaming?
Where was the “If a man is drinking or drunk – Don’t falsely accuse him”
“if a man is a celebrity – Don’t falsely accuse him”
“if you are angry with a man – Don’t falsely accuse him”
“If a man turns your advances down – Don’t falsely accuse him”
You can not in one breathe believe that a man should not go out drinking if he wants to avoid false accusations and in the same breathe say that women should be able to be drunk and not take precautions.
It’s both or neither
That’s the hypocrisy of victim blaming.
You either set a standard and live by it or you pick and choose who is responsible and who isn’t to suit your own ideology.
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This is not at all about choosing to make/believe false accusations rather than blaming a victim. The two are not related.
This is about people who *are* raped – not people who make false accusations – but the culpability of the offender is alleviated by society by virtue of the fact that a woman conducted herself in a particular way prior to being attacked. People accept that yes, the offender did the wrong thing and the victim didn’t consent, but the victim did something to encourage the attack. Perhaps she had consensual sex with 6 men in a particular group, but had no interest in the 7th. The 7th decided he wanted what all the others got, but she did not consent. That is rape. But many in society would look upon that and judge her for having sex with 6 other men as a valid indication of her willingness, rather than see as valid any express indication to the contrary.
Yes, some people make false accusations. Many others don’t even report a rape for fear of not being believed.
The fact that you consider there to be a strong correlation between speaking out against victim blaming and *believing false allegations is so troubling. *originally said advocating as I had initially meant to complete the sentence differently.
I agree with you that alleged offenders should be treated as innocent until proven guilty and that at times in the feminist community men can be somewhat marginalised and subject to gross generalisations and assumptions. But we are not talking about that here, not today. People aren’t saying “every man ever accused of rape is guilty” people are saying “every man who is guilty of rape is solely to blame for the rape, the victim attracts no culpability for the actions of another”.
This is about causation resting with the offender; an attack does not occur by virtue of a woman walking alone at night. She doesn’t attack herself. It is dependent on the existence of an offender and their subsequent actions. Thus, causation rests with them, not the victim.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc – logical fallacy, “after this, therefore because of this”. In application to this discussion, “rape happens after woman’s conduct, therefore because of the conduct” – logical fallacy.
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“This is not at all about choosing to make/believe false accusations rather than blaming a victim. The two are not related.”
Nice diffusion, unfortunately the exactly correlation is clearly obvious, I was placing one set of victim blaming against another.
“but the culpability of the offender is alleviated by society by virtue of the fact that a woman conducted herself in a particular way prior to being attacked”
Exactly my point – No one who is a victim should be blamed for anything that is not their fault.
But they interesting part is in a rape trial the victims clothing is irrelevant and not factored into it, so societal conditioning or not, it is irrelevant to the judicial outcome.
“The fact that you consider there to be a strong correlation between speaking out against victim blaming and advocating false allegations is so troubling”
……?…….?……..?……..?
*Brain Explodes*
Deep breathe…….
No, where do I make such a summation?
I merely posited that to blame one victim and not another is hypocrisy.
I completely rebuke your claim that I find the two correlate. You are arguing against me by drawing made up conclusions and twisted perception.
I find a list of when not to rape a woman offensive as it make an assumed pretense that without it’s existence I couldn’t figure that out, So I merely thought I would post about something that really happened.
Brett Stewart was really a victim and was really victim blamed, but many people found that to be acceptable because he is a man, but many of those same hypocrites are anti victim blaming.
Such hypocrisy is a problem when it is sexist
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I hope you didn’t take my comment as trying to start a debate with you, because it wasn’t. Hence why I said, “I agree with you that…”. I was just having difficulty understanding the motive of your post in the context of the discussion; I thought perhaps it had been in response to particular (perceived) attitudes expressed in the discussion and I didn’t recall seeing any attitudes of male-victim-blaming.
I came to the conclusion that you see correlation between not blaming rape victims and believing false allegations based on the fact that you are posting on a topic about not blaming rape victims and (seemed to be) making the assumption that people who choose not to blame rape victims also choose to blame victims of false allegations. At least, that is how I interpreted your post given that it made no reference to the actual topic of discussion. So apologies if I didn’t read your post as you intended it to be read. If it was purely intended to be bringing up the issue of hypocrisy of some individuals, then I agree with you. It is hypocritical.
It seemed to me that you were misunderstanding the point of the discussion, so the remainder of my reply was really just to clarify the position of myself and many other commenters. If you look at some other posts on this site (for example, posts pertaining to allegations against certain football players) you will see that many posters, including myself, have expressed that it is unfair to crucify someone without any evidence at our disposal.
As I said, I agree with you that one cannot be anti-victim-blaming but only in particular circumstances. But the content of your post seemed to indicate, to me at least, that you were suggesting this discussion was somehow about blaming men for everything even when they’ve not in fact done anything wrong, or that all people who subscribe to the belief that rape victims are not to blame also necessarily believe that all people accused of rape are guilty and not worthy of protection.
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Okay!
I did think my comments were reasonably relevant in the context of victim blaming which is what I thought the discussion was more about.
All good
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They are definitely relevant in the context of victim blaming now that I understand your intent – just wanted to be clear that we don’t all think that it’s not okay to blame female victims but it is okay to blame male victims. Turns out after all that we were both more or less on the same page
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Shannon
Agreed ma’am!
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“we are not talking about that here today” – we never talk about that on any day. It is always about the ‘victim’, and feminists can never see that a wrongly accused man is just as much a victim. All the talk in recent weeks that the conviction rate for sexual assult has dropped this last 12 months, as if, it should be some type of quota we aspire to reach, otherwise victims are being hard done by – have you not heard of innocent before being proven – that seems to not apply in the case of a man accused of sexual assult against a women. Just my 5 cents worth.
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“have you not heard of innocent before being proven [guilty]”
…was that aimed at me? Because obviously I have, since I wrote that in my post, lol. Also, as a feminist I *can* see that wrongly accused men are victimised – something else I clearly said in my post.
As for ‘”we are not talking about that here today” (male-victim-blaming) we never talk about that on any day’ I know I’ve discussed it a number of times here, and I think one of the main posts was this one http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/10/peter-spida-everitt-twitter-sexual-assault.html . I’m obviously not going to sort through hundreds of posts on different articles to find them for you, but I have clear recollection of discussing it a number of times.
Oh! One of the big ones: http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/08/kristy-fraser-kirk-sues-david-jones-for-37m.html there were plenty of comments that were about “innocent until proven guilty”.
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Just to clarify, this is a different anon to my who wrote the original post
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I’m a feminist and I would never blame a victim of rape, OR someone who was falsely accused of rape.
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What a shame society and the media, much less most feminists on this site, do not hold your balanced view Catherine. When a man (especially a celeb) is accused, the media (and everyone in general) is quick to throw rotten fruit, to condemn, to assume guilt. The newspapers are festooned with articles about what a scum bag he is. If it then comes out that it was a false accusation, you are lucky to read about it in a small paragraph buried at the back of the newspaper somewhere. Yet the mud sticks. It would do everyone well to remember that the legal process is the same, no matter what the accusation.
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Don’t know if anyone has posted a link to this Scottish campaign that was suggesting the same thing, but in case they haven’t, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnGPAZcsqE
Makes the point. No one puts on a short skirt thinking ‘Yes! I would like to be raped tonight!’
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“Makes the point. No one puts on a short skirt thinking ‘Yes! I would like to be raped tonight!’”
That’s true, but by that extension, no one puts on a short skirt and skimpy top and thinks ‘No one is going to look at my sexually suggestive clothing tonight’
Or
‘Even though men are sexual beings, if they look at my publicly available cleavage, it’s not my fault for clearly showing it off”
“I don’t wear low cut tops and short skirts to get attention, I like to be cold at night”
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Wanting to attract sexual attention doesn’t mean you don’t have a choice in who you get to have sex with!
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I will definitely take that on board.
I guess wanting money, means I can’t rob a bank.
Consider me edukated
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There’s a big difference between looking and raping.
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That’s good to know.
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This has been circulating on the internet for a while. A useful “how to prevent rape” guide:
How to Prevent Rape
A lot has been said about how to prevent rape. Women should learn self-defense. Women should lock themselves in their houses after dark. Women shouldn’t wear short skirts. Women shouldn’t leave drinks unattended. Perhaps they shouldn’t dare to get drunk at all.
Instead of further curtailing women’s freedom, how about:
If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
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And how many male sexual assault victims are asked what they were wearing?
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If a woman gets so drunk that she vomits on her shoes. Her fault. If she gets drunk and decides to drive. Her responsibility. If she gets drunk and falls over and hurts herself. Her responsibility. But if a man ever has sex with a woman without her consent that is a crime. It is called rape and that is all his responsibility.
Similarly if a woman dresses in a skimpy outfit and she catches a cold. Her responsibility. If she dresses in a skimpy outfit and gets a sunburn on her exposed flesh. Her responsibility. But if a man ever has sex with a woman without her consent that is a crime. It is called rape and that is all his responsibility.
The second thing is that I’m sick of hearing “men should never raped women, but…” arguments. It smacks of “I’m not a racist, but… ” The third thing to say to anyone making this sort of argument is this:
“I am so so glad (genuinely) that you can say that because it tells me without any doubt whatsoever that you have never experienced sexual assault. If you had, like I have, you wouldn’t be saying that.”
Finally all the studies with convicted felons show that when asked why they raped someone they all said three things
1) access to the victim
2) perceptions of the victims vulnerability level (i.e. physically and mentally disabled people are assaulted at a much higher rate- and not cos they wear more short skirts)
3) the belief that they could manipulate that person into a location where the assault would be carried out without interruption.
Got that? Nothing in there about how the victim was dressing. IN FACT people who think that dress is a factor are implying that rape is about uncontrollable lust. NOT TRUE. its about power and humiliation. It is a deliberate and thought out abuse- not a whim of the moment- lust took over- type thing.
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i agree with what has been said below about how you dress does not equal ‘asking for it’ or deservibng an assault in any way.
AS an aside, I think that young women need to stop trying to look sexy. They are sexually attractive without trying so hard. What is wrong with a little elegance and allure?
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I was around the tearoom table at work recently, (I’m a nurse and there were at least 5 other professionally trained women there) and a story came up about a women who had been walking along the edge of the parklands in the city, in the dark and had been raped. The instant reaction of every women at that table (excluding me) was, ‘what a stupid woman, walking alone in the dark!’ What about, ‘what a horrible selfish man raping that poor woman!!??’ I couldn’t believe that instead of showing any sympathy towards the poor woman, they all instantly attacked her and made it out to be all her fault. I know this story is more about the way women dress and I don’t know or really care how the woman in this story was dressed, but why do people instantly blame the woman in such situations?
Sure, walking in or on the edge of the parklands isn’t something I would do, however we don’t know what her motive was, who knows, maybe she walks to and from work every day and with day light savings, it turned out to be dark at 6.30 when she left the office that night. But at the end if the day, whatever the story was, it is in no way her fault she was raped and I hope she never feels it is!!
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Why is this so controversial? Why is everyone so upset at the policeman? I think the choice of the word ‘slut’ sends the wrong message, and of course there is no excuse for rape – but he’s just advocating personal safety and responsibility. Some rapes are unavoidable – but in general sexual violence is more likely to occur if you put yourself in certain situations. This would include walking through dark parks/isolated areas at night, wearing provocative clothing designed to attract the attention of men, behaving in a provocative manner, going home or to hotels with men (known or unknown) and initiating/allowing physical contact that may lead to sex.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where there was no rape, and I cannot condemn the men who commit it more strongly – but we don’t. It would also be nice if we weren’t judged by our appearance, but we are. So if you dress like a slut, you’re more likely to be treated like one. It might not be fair, but it’s the truth.
The policeman who made this statement is not in any way blaming the victims – he’s just asking women to think about the signals they are unintentionally sending out, as they may be increasing their risk of danger.
I personally think the ‘slutwalk’ is distasteful and demeaning to women.
Incidentally, I’m glad most of the posts now express agreement for the idea that all women should be able to wear whatever they want without consequence – maybe we can stop hassling/pitying our muslim sisters now?
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Sorry, I must have missed the part where someone said Muslim women are opening themselves up to rape and/or harassment by what they wear.
And I would venture a guess that most women, whilst supporting the right of a young woman to be wearing a tiny skirt and shirt in the middle of freezing Melbourne winter night and not be hassled or raped – they may be worried.. as one commenter put very well below – that the she might be ‘placing all her self esteem into her sexuality’.
Expression of sexuality is healthy and normal, but I think there is some serious worry about the expectations of young women to conform to a sexualised image if it is at the expense of say, getting pnueomonia. And I feel pretty critical of the social norms that may be influencing our young women to feel that way. In the same way I may feel critical of particular social norms that may be influencing our tiny minority of muslim women who willingly wear the niqab.
I respect the right of all women to wear what they wish without fear of harassment (or pity for that matter).
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Muslim women and their attire are regularly discussed and slandered on this site and just about everywhere else you look on the internet. They are sometimes verbally and physically abused because of their outfits. But that is a topic for another day..
I would say that there is a big worry about women feeling the need to express their sexuality through skimpy clothing. They wont get pneumonia – thats caused by bacteria, not cold – but they degrade themselves by aspiring to look like porn stars.
The slutwalk is awful – some of the participants appear to lack any dignity. Why is wearing underwear, ripped stockings or tape (in one case) empowering? This isnt going to stop rape – it’s more likely to alienate men. Actually, nothing will stop rape completely, given that a percentage of people will always be violent and cruel; but to minimise it, women would do better if they stopped advertising a message they dont wish to project.
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Fantastic post, could not agree more. This policeman was trying to help spread the message of risk minimisation, and I agree stuffed up seriously in the way he expressed himself. However, the message is not totally wrong imo – we all wish there was no crime in the world, that people did not take advantage of others when tempted – however it does happen and always will.
We are not all marching in the street demanding the right to leave our cars unlocked with our wallets or purses left in view on the front seats – we are not all marching insisting the right to wave wads of cash around in the air after we have just been to the ATM. Sure, you are welcome to do this, and in a perfect world there would be no increased risk, but we all know that there is.
The fact is that men are visual creatures, and sexy dressing women will always spark interest. 99% of men are decent people, contain this desire and respect women, but none the less they are programmed biologically to react (I always find it amazing that women will complain about being looked at when they dress in a sexy fashion, yet at other times say that they dress like this to generate stares in order to boost self confidence – it would be nice if men knew in which frame of mind a woman was in at any given time so we could react accordingly – but that is another story)
It is not unreasonable to suggest to women that there is a time and place to ‘let it all hang out’, as there will always be attention resulting from dressing in an overtly sexual way. And this, unfortunately, will always result in a degree of increased attention (and therefore risk) in society, for the odd scumbag that has not respect of women.
For this reason, I am not sure I get what running up and down city streets in fishnets and g strings achieves.
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Good for you KateA – you’ve obviously never been raped. If you had you wouldn’t say such crap. What about the man’s responsibility? What about the fact that the place a woman is most likely to be assaulted is her own home? By your logic we shouldn’t be telling women “don’t walk home alone” we should be telling them “don’t go home”. Honestly- your rape apologism is pathetic.
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N, you have attacked Kate and called her statements crap and her beliefs pathetic.
Kate is not apologizing for rapists nor does her condone them anywhere in her statement.
Even if her notion that attire is a factor, she may only say that because she thought it was and genuinely cares not to see someone become a victim.
To educate people with the notion that it is not the case, you anger and insults is not the way to do so in a respectful manner.
Are you an extreme feminist or just extremely angry. Rape apologism would be the action of defending rape.
I have not seen one single comment on this board doing that. Maybe you should point out where anyone has defended the rapist’s right to rape.
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The problem here is, though, that ‘preventing rape’ by not dressing ‘slutty’ and/or not walking alone in dark alleys at night is a statistical furphy.
I’m actually statistically more at risk, sitting here in my own home in my trackies with my partner than I would be stumbling home drunk from a night out in the Cross in my sluttiest ‘look at moi’ outfit…. I’d be more at risk actually AT my office Christmas party than I am catching the train home from it at 2am. The reality is that most women are raped or sexually assaulted by someone they already know and have some kind of relationship with – not by attracting the attention of the ‘stranger in the bushes’ by wearing a too-short, rape-inciting skirt.
I don’t think women (or men) who say that we can take some responsibility for guarding against being raped by not engaging in certain behaviours are necessarily meaning to blame victims. I think they’re often trying to reassure themselves by going; “Well, I/women I care about don’t wear revealing clothes or drink too much in public or walk or travel by public transport alone at night, so I am/they are able to prevent something awful and horrifying happening to me/them.” Nobody wants to think they could be the victim of a random violent crime – so we try to convince ourselves that it’s not random. And we end up telling victims, intentionally or not, that their ordeal, degradation and humiliation is something they brought on themselves.
Please let’s stop doing that?
Cheers.
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So in order to avoid being raped we should not go outside after dark, only wear tracksuits (or maybe even just a blanket), dont go ANYWHERE with a man whether you know him or not BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WE MUSNT HAVE ANY PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH A MAN THAT MAY LEAD TO SEX??? I am in shock that in 2011 someone can be this narrow minded! Do you suggest that doing any of the above is an invitation to be raped? Do you think that if I wear a short skirt to a club I am hoping to be raped by the end of the night? You have obviously never experienced the trauma and violence of being sexually assaulted and I’m disappointed that more people haven’t said anything about your misguided comments.
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Has anyone read in the India edition of the Lonely Planet how a number of careless, thoughtless western women, have dressed and acted inappropriately in India which has misled many poor unknowing Indian men into thinking that all western women are promiscuous harlots who want to be groped and harrassed.
Perhaps the author may want to have investigated the rates of rape and sexual harassment in India of conservatively dressed Indian women.
I guess thats what you get when you read substandard, post-colonialist, the path everyone travels, travel books.
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I always thought men were the biggest sluts! lol
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I think there are two issues to flesh out of this cause. This first is the misogynist comments about the way women dress and the second is the use and defintiion of the word slut.
The first is a no brainer. It is NEVER okay to rape anyone. Ever. For any reason. As a woman in my twenties it disgusts me and also terrifies me that there are men (and dare I say women) who believe this. As I walk alone from the tram stop to my house or drink at the local pub, are there people looking at me thinking, based purely on my appearance, that they can take advantage of me without consent. As a relatively weak and small girl, this thought not only repulses me but makes me feel unsafe, threatened and at risk.
At 17, I was taken advantage of by an unknown older guy. I had consumed way too much alcohol and was taken to my friend’s bedroom. He ‘kindly’ offered to take the glass of water to me that my friend was getting so that she could go back to having fun and dancing. Whilst in her room he took my virginity and stayed there until I came to then asked me how I was. He couldn’t understand why I was outraged that I was now naked and felt violated. His only response was, “you didn’t say no so I thought it was okay.” I would not want any one to feel how I felt that day and I become enraged at people who think that women who dress provocatively or drink too much are ‘free range,’ as I’ve heard it coined.
The use of the word ‘slut’ is one that requires a little more thought. I work with teenage students and I am distressed by the early age at which young women are having sex. More upsetting is the unsafe nature in which they are having sex putting themselves at risk of pregnancy and STIs; both of which I have seen happen in girls age 12-14 first hand. Adding to this, many of these girls feel used for sex and others feel that ‘putting out’ is the only way people will like them.
Similarly, I lived with a girl who one would define as a slut. She spent her weekends following elite sports teams across Melbourne attempting to add another ‘feather to her cap.’ To my knowledge she has had three abortions and been treated for numerous STIs. My concern is not her behaviour, she is 26 and more than capable of making her decisions. My concern is for her physical and her mental health. Over a few glasses of wine one night she divulged that this is who she has defined herself as and doesn’t know how to get out of it. As she sobbed, she wished that she could settle down with a nice boy and actually have a relationship but felt that would interfere with her identity. While she has many more feathers than any other twenty something I know, under no circumstance does this justify rape. I also don’t take passing judgement lightly but my sister has just had a baby girl and I would not be happy with her growing up behaving like this.
While I’m not proclaiming that I have a perfect track record. I’ve had my fair share of one night stands and engaged in promiscuous activity over the years. I have done the embarrassing walk of shame from an unknown house, back into my own house and more obviously on public transport (on a weekday.) As embarrassing as these moments were and as much as I felt that I had the word skank or slut plastered across my forehead as the conservatives rode the bus to work and stared, I think that removing the social stigma attached to such activities is potentially a sexual health and mental health disaster waiting to happen.
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I’m a slut. I’m not… Well, I am actually; in the context of the slutwalk I am. I dislike the word ‘slut’ and the way it is used to shame women. Anything that draws attention to the stupid idea that the way a woman dresses=rape is a good thing. Also if we could change the negative connotations of the word so that it becomes benign-like that would be good too.
Good post Mamamia
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I use the word slut. Usually referring to myself or Big Fella in our pre-married lives!! I don’t have negative conotations to the word, we both slept with an ‘above average’ number of people and were pretty slutty!
I spend a lot of time with young women and comment on their clothes (I’m their sister so I’m allowed to lol)I don’t use the word slutty because I was pretty conservative in my dress (still am) and slept with a lot of people. I tell them they look ridiculous, will get cold, that I can see their knickers, have they ever thought they look HOTTER in some of their less scant clothing etc. I just don’t think they wear enough clothes!!!
The sexual assault/rape argument is bogus. Its just the newest angle for misogynists to use to make rape a woman’s fault. They have had thousands of arguments over thousands of years for it, this is just the most recent.
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I love it- If I lived in sydney I would be there. Go sluts!
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I am truely conflicted by this piece.
Firstly – rape is not ok, ever! So I’m all for the march. What one wears should not equate to an invitation for anyone to do as they please to another human being.
Secondly – everyone’s life is free to be lived their own way (within in the law of course). Wear dark mysterious clothing, short skirts, be-jewelled outfits, as long as it’s your choice and you’re comfortable in your own skin.
But here’s where I get a little undone – I don’t like the idea of advocating, as a an organised march generally means “advocate”, girls to dress “slutty”. It comes back to chidren and young adults for me. The same way I don’t like shows that advocate girls dressing up as “little perfect princesses” or shops creating/selling bras for pre-teen girls. I already feel (and it’s my personal opinion) that teenage girls feel imense preasure to be “sexy” in order to gain any attention from the opposite sex.
So when we throw the word “slut” into the mix, I’m not sure what message is really being sent…
I don’t know, like I said. I’m confused.
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The march isn’t necessarily about advocating dressing sluttily though – in fact, organisers have said that you should march in “whatever makes you feel comfortable”. It’s more about women owning their choices and embracing their sexuality, whatever that may mean for them, without fear of being victimised
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It’s not about advocating dressing sluttily, it’s about advocating that as women we should be able to dress how we like without judgment and the fear of being raped.
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Then perhaps they shouldn’t have called it SlutWalk, as I’ve commented previously I think the name is a turn off and sends the wrong message. Parading around in your underwear brandishing a sign saying “I’m a slut” and “sluts say yes” in my opinion does nothing to change the attitudes of men and makes the women look stupid.
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I Love Canadians!!
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Tricky. I dont like people associating a womans dress with sexual assualt, thats wrong. Thats wrong.
But as a mum I dont want my girls wearing clothes that I would call ‘tarty’..
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I just can’t really get my head around this….. I can’t supprt the idea of a walk about ‘slut pride’… to me (and I assume to most) the word slut means promiscuous women (or person) and the word promiscuous brings to mind lots of casual (and in my mind irresponsible) sex. I have no issue with women who have lots of casual sex – your body, your choice. But my personal values are very different (married to my one and only sexual partner) so there is no way I would use the word slut to describe myself and it is not a word I would use to describe any of my friends etc (even the ones who do have lots of casual sex so I guess that goes to show that slut is certainly a word with negative connotations for the general public).
On the other hand I don’t think that the way you dress, behave etc etc makes a women (or man) invite rape. Rape (and any form of sexual abuse) is not ok no matter what the circumstances. I would certainly walk and hold banners etc etc for that cause.
I just think the word ‘slut’ confuses the whole issue….
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My personal values are also very different, but I will fight to the end for women to have values that are different to mine and make that choice for themselves
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Yes, I posted below that I was a bit confused about their message but I just couldn’t put my finger on why, but you have articulated my thoughts exactly.
I heard one of the organisers talking about it on Red Symons ABC breakfast program this morning and while I agree with the sentiment, the use of the word slut over and over again really turned me off – and I turned the radio off so I wouldn’t have to have an awkward conversation with my 8 year old daughter who was listening. Using the term ‘slut pride’ just sounds wrong to me. While I don’t agree with what the York University said, I also don’t think that, given the definitions and connotation of the word, a slut is something that people should aim to be. I certainly wouldn’t be encouraging my daughter to grow up and be a slut which to me is what many of the banners at this march seem to be saying.
Any violence towards women (or anyone) is reprehensible, but marching around saying you’re proud to be a slut is in my opinion ridiculous and send the wrong message to young girls.
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Now that I’ve realised the Australian Sex Party is organising the Brisbane Slutwalk, I have renewed love for the party.
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This leaves me feeling conflicted. On the one hand I don’t think that clothing should have any bearing on why rape occurs. As one of the recent posts here showed, it can be for being a lesbian. On the other hand, I’m not going to tell my girls (I have 3) thats it’s ok to go out in skimpy, revealing clothes, particularly as teenagers. My adult daughter and I can handle any name calling or unwanted advance to a point but the younger 2 just wouldn’t be prepared for that. Young girls aren’t at first. Before I get attacked for this, I think boys need to be taught to respect girls and not fling names about.
As for the word slut, who cares. It’s a cheap fallback for someone who can’t think of anything better, just like bitch.
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It’s so sad isn’t it, that we just ‘get used to’ men harassing us in the street.
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STOP and think! Mox News is a satirical news site ffs. This whole thing has the taint of behaviourists as far as I am concerned.
Wake Up!
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OK I’m going to repost my original comment directed towards Bruce’s query below but WITHOUT the graffiti quote as it obviously offended some people:
It is [victim blaming] entrenched in societal views. I attended Sydney Uni, did you ever hear of St Paul’s college Facebook group called “define statutory” which described itself as “pro-rape, anti-consent.” Girls were conditioned to believe that these boys from wealthy and elite families would be protected by the college heads and expensive family lawyers, while the female victims will be brandished sluts.
Please read these 2 articles thoroughly to see where I am coming from:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/harsh-lessons-at-the-university-of-hard-knocks-20091108-i3kd.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/11/13/2742684.htm
Sure these are in reference to university colleges but the same misogynistic views are woven through so many other facets of society.
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Oh my god please. I currently attend Sydney Uni and that was such a beat up! Yes, it was extremely poor taste. Yes questionable incidents do happen at Pauls and other colleges, particularly at the big parties.
But that group was for the indoor soccer competition that SUSF (the sports organisation) runs. Again bad taste, but I just want to point out that it wasn’t a group created by Pauls students to promote rape. It does indirectly, but the group was for coordinating the soccer team.
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guess that makes it ok then, just boys being boys right?
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No, why do you presume to put words in someone’s mouth?
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I could not agree more, uni students will make stupid, ill thought out comments and actions. If you look hard enough, you will find a group of pissed uni students saying pretty much anything you can think of, no matter how offensive. to use isolated moments of stupidity to demonstrate an endemic problem from one gender to another is crazy.
If this is the case, I guess we have to also assume that ALL women think that ALL men are rapists. As that was a line I heard a fair bit from some militant feminsts at my university.
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Bec, there was no ‘reply’ button on your response to my post below so I am copying your response and replying here OK?:
“Tess, what would be more effective than your sarcasm would be a discussion about it. The double standards women tend to have. Our use of the word slut. How we truly feel when we see other women dressed provocatively.
Was Mia being a hypocrite? Possibly. Is that any worse than coming onto a website and being sarcastic and smug? I don’t think so.”
Bec, I agree I was being sarcastic. But not smug, no. I think the sarcasm was a well-justified response to Mia’s flippant brush off to my comments. She could have taken the opportunity to discuss double standards but chose to be dismissive..why are you turning that on me when I was the one who invited discussion?
So, anyhow. Lets open up a non-sarcastic, non-confrontational discussion on this: why the double standards? I’d certainly welcome any insights as to why even the most seemingly aware women have double-standards, and am happy to keep it dinner-table style friendly. Anyone?
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I think it’s a good question. I don’t know the answer, I don’t even have any ideas but would be interested to see what other people think.
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I agree, that it is often women who are harshest in judging other women’s sexuality (and appearance, and career/childcare choices etc etc), Maybe this reflects our own internal conflicts…trying to assimilate all those conflicting messages. You know: be pretty, but not too sexy…nor to ‘frigid’. Be high-acheiving, but not a ball-breaker..Ugh. Its a hard thing to navigate.
Not many of us are free enough to say ‘I am who I am and I don’t care what you think’ and so we can’t permit others to that freedom either…
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You’re raising valid points.
The other day I politely asked my SIL and MIL why my SIL’s ex boyfriend’s new partner was ‘a slut’.
I told them that the person they should be pissed off with is him, not her.
Sometimes women seem to throw around the ‘slut’ term more than men, and it IS disappointing when you hear it from people you admire and people who should know better.
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Another thing Bec, in the least offensive way I can say this, I do genuinely think its worse to be a person with a high public profile and a self-proclaimed champion/voice of women’s issues and be a hypocrite than to be a’ sarcastic ‘MM reader asking some unwelcome questions.
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Hi Tess,
I’m always up for these interesting discussions! I am embarrassed to say that in the past I have said “those girls are dressed like sluts”. I’m not proud of that, but I have. And here’s the double-standard. If I heard a man say the same thing I’d be furious. Go figure.
Clearly it’s inappropriate and today’s post has really brought home that message to me. Words are powerful. We (well, me) need to more mindful.
But I think the way some women dress does press the buttons of other women. And this is a separate issue to one of sexual assault. NO WOMAN OR MAN ASKS TO BE RAPED. EVER.
So why does it bother me if I see young girls in the city dressed provocatively? I’m not sure. Again, this has nothing to do with the issue of sexual assault. But why do I roll my eyes when I see a teenage girl dressed like a hooker?
Am I jealous? Old? A hypocrite? Or all of the above?
And i have to say I think you’re being exceedingly harsh on Mia. She was using slut as an adjective – yes. Saying that at fancy dress parties, why do women opt for the “slutty” version of the costume. A “slutty” nurse etc. And you know what she’s saying — the nurse costume that looks its been borrowed from a porno movie. Perhaps instead of “slutty” she should have said, ‘The Benny Hill version of the costume”.
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Hi Bec
Yes, I guess that ‘slut’ word is pretty emotive. I literally cringed and felt tight in the guts when I heard Mia use it (probably in part because I really wasn’t expecting it from her).
Words are powerful, and I know I’m guilt of using them thoughtlessly, aren’t we all? The word slut just seems so loaded with shame, that even in a light-hearted context it grates.
Why do we roll our eyes when we see a teenager dressed as a hooker? My 2 cents: It probably has more to do with her seeming to place her whole self-worth into her sexuality. Like a thinly veiled cry for attention using any means available. After all, a female learns pretty quick that her sexuality is a powerful attention-grabber. In another female, the same way of dressing coupled with self-worth and centredness might inspire admiration. ..or perhaps evoke our own personal insecurities. Some thoughts.
Thanks for coming back on this by the way. I feel I’m learning something, as opposed to having a slanging match (which was never my intention) and whilst I still really hate that slut word, and its shaming conotations, I’m understanding a bit more where Mia may have been coming from underneath.
Phewf
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I think you’re absolutely right about the “teens dressed as hookers” thing. A great book to read is Your Skirts Too Short by Emily Maguire. Emily really challenges many of the ideas people have about young women and sex. I’m still trying to work out where I agree with her and where I disagree with her. I’m sure with our discussion above, Emily would ask us “Why can’t teenage girls dress in a sexy manner? Why do we continually think sex is bad?”
It’s really interesting and at times, I had to put the book down to try and work out what my own opinions were. I’m still trying to work it out!
I’m really glad we got to have this discussion, Tess! You’ve helped me clarify some of my own thoughts.
Bec x
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I tried to post this earlier to Bruce’s comment below but it didn’t work:
It is [victim blaming] entrenched in societal views. I attended Sydney Uni, did you ever hear of St Paul’s college Facebook group called “define statutory” which described itself as “pro-rape, anti-consent.”
Girls were conditioned to believe that these boys from wealthy and elite families would be protected by the college heads and expensive family lawyers, while the female victims will be brandished sluts and had to put up with this sort of graffiti: ‘They can’t say no with a c–k in their mouth.”
Please read these 2 articles thoroughly to see where I am coming from:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/harsh-lessons-at-the-university-of-hard-knocks-20091108-i3kd.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2009/11/13/2742684.htm
Sure these are in reference to university colleges but the same misogynistic views are woven through so many other facets of society.
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That is so disturbing.
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I see my comment was marked for moderation, if MM wants to remove the graffiti quote then fine, but this is the reality of how women can be treated.
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I don’t know why it was marked for moderation; it was automatic. Sorry!
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I was raped on a university campus on a day when I was wearing jeans (not tight), a very baggy jumper, and boring flat fake leather shoes. I also had short hair, glasses, no makeup and underwear on.
I guess I should go along to the march dressed similarly, and run the gauntlet of police wanting to arrest me for indecent exposure and of moralists telling me I’m asking for it.
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I am so sorry you had to go through that horrific experience xx
Some of the commenters below have made me feel ill. To think they think clothing has ANYTHING to do with rape is seriously disturbing. I feel like I’m in the 1950s on here today.
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See, the thing is, when I was raped it wasn’t because I was out late a night in a dodgy part of town. I wasn’t drunk, or high. And I was wearing my winter woollies, not anything revealing. Because in 2006, 8 days before I turned 16, I was raped by my then boyfriend. And that’s the thing. Most rapes don’t occur in a dark alleyway by a stranger, but by someone the victim knows (like a boyfriend, a family member a neighbour).
I didn’t do anything to deserve what happened to me. And no one who is sexually assaulted ever does, no matter what they were wearing or their level of intoxication.
(statistics from “Rape is Never Justified – http://www.rapeisneverjustified.org)
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clearly that was me (and i forgot to sign in)
oops.
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I love this idea!
I have both called people sluts, and been called a slut. I would suggest this is the same for many. It doesn’t of course mean that it is right. Slut has creeped into our venacular, and we need to call attention to it.
Its not right or fair, and the practice of ‘slut shaming’ or partially blaming rape on a women’s attire is both ridiculous and offensive. It reminds me of when I was in high school a Brother (Catholic school) sat all the Year 12s down under the guise of talking about ‘respect’. In fact it was a speech delaring that girls couldn’t blame the boys for “getting carried away” when the girls dressed in “skimpy clothing”. This was 10 years ago (yikes I’m getting old) but it still makes me angry to this day. I cant believe this attitude remains.
Rape is about power and dominance, not about sex
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I like the ‘Society Teaches ‘dont get raped’ rather then ‘dont rape’ poster. Hard hitting truth.
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I know the protesters can wear what they want, but do you reckon the guy in the first pic could have put a t-shirt on? That’s some nipple ya got there….
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news just in on the abc website. utterly horrifying.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/11/3213864.htm
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My partner and I can’t possibly be the only people in Australia to discourage our 6 year old daughter from playing with Bratz dolls, can we? (Can we?). To us, they represent something thoroughly unwholesome. (no, we’re not Mormons. In fact, we live in sin.). And much as we cringe at Barbie, she’s relatively harmless (aside from the body image thing, the consumerism thing and the sex role stereotyping thing, of course).
So yes, sluttish dress is recognisible and sends negative signals.
But it can be fun at parties…
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Oh no, I hate them too! Not one in our house (I think they stopped making them didn’t they). I have many friends who feel the same, revolting things.
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Bratz are banned in my house, but I allow Barbies.
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Pom you are not alone. We have a Bratz ban in our house and our daughter doesn’t like Barbies thankfully.
I for one am a bit confused by the slutwalk – why do they have to keep emphasising the word over and over again? From a PR point of view I am finding their message confusing.
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I agree, it is such a empowering and powerful message. Could it have been communicated better?
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You’re not alone at all – if a Bratz doll were to make its way into our household I would be horrified and figuring out a way to remove it immediately. Those things are just hideous. Ugly and hardly an appropriate idea to be giving to little girls. If grown women want to dress like that then they’re very welcome to do so – wear a niqab, wear fishnets, wear whatever the hell you wish to! – but little girls should be allowed to be little girls and I think that includes dressing like little girls.
My daughter was actually given some horrid Barbie doll for her birthday that looks very Bratz – purple glittery short dress, thick as thick eyeliner and I’ve finally managed to convince her that its not a very friendly looking doll and its hardly been played with. Now it just has to quietly make its way to the bin……
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I binned a Moxy dolls at Christmas- quietly before they remember they were there. Later my mother in law gave my daughter Brtz bag for pre school. I binned that too- by my dear daughter told My mother in Law I binned it because it looked scanky( better watch what I say in future- didn’t realise she heard me say that). At least no more bratz this christmas!
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My 3 year old daughter has a Barbie doll, I don’t like them either. The problem is it was bought for her by her older brother who thought she would ‘love it’ (she does too) so we’re stuck with it.
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Yes it still has a stigma, I don’t use it, but I hear it plenty. There are still revolting double standards in play. I think what a woman wears gives SOME select members of society crude and sometimes dangerous ideas, but that is wrong, and most people know that. In Australia we are mostly lucky, many societies around the world routinely beat their women (or worse) if they are perceived to be dressing inappropriately. Here that kind of behaviour is at least illegal.
I suppose my personal test gauge is that I would worry if my sister or daughter chose to dress provocatively. Yet I know that I was innocently and inadvertently dressing provocatively by many standards at the age of 13!
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I have no problem with anyone dressing any way in which they please.
….However
The majority of people know and understand that your apparel is not the reason you are likely to get raped.
The slutwalker, especially know this, hell, it’s quoted by them over and over as a justification for being able to wear what ever they want.
Not that anyone should need any justification.
Being sexually promiscuous on the other hand does increase one’s chances of being raped.
It’s a stone cold, hard, unavoidable, inarguable fact.
There seems to be some built in defense mechanism that says you can tell people to be responsible for everything in their lives and to take intelligent precautions.
EXCEPT in the area of sex.
No one deserves to be a victim, but that doesn’t mean a person telling another person how to logically prevent their chance of being one is a misogynist or anti anything at all except violence.
When a person suggests that not wearing “slutty” clothes is a good idea for safety, they are using the misguided notion that it would be beneficial.
Though they may be wrong, why do so many people seem so quick to assume their intentions are not goo ones.
….Is that assumption any more justified than the actions of said suggester?
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“Being sexually promiscuous on the other hand does increase one’s chances of being raped.
It’s a stone cold, hard, unavoidable, inarguable fact.”
Please provide me with this stone cold evidence because I have no idea what you’re talking about?
Unless we all have how many people we’ve slept with tattooed on our forehead this argument makes no sense to me.
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Thanks Bec, that was excellent. I’m going to copy and paste that comment into my “stuff to tell my daughter when she’s older” file.
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You’re welcome!
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Do you need evidence that riding in a car increases your likelihood of a car crash?
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Anon, “being in possession of a vagina” seems to be enough to increase chances of rape.
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Clearly that’s what I’m saying.
Clearly I hate women
Clearly I am a misogynist
Yup, that pretty much covers it.
Because, you know, the most people you’re intimate with, the less likely you are to be raped.
Is that anyone’s serious answer, ‘coz I’m really interested to know?
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You are still not making sense!
Please, PLEASE tell me how one relates to the other?
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I think he means women who have lots of one night stands are more at risk of getting raped because they are more likely to be drunk in public late at night, more likely to go somewhere private with someone they don’t really know, stuff like that. So women who are ‘promiscuous’ are more likely to be more vulnerable (ie drunk/in some horny guy they don’t knows house/etc) than someone who never has one night stands.
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A lot of people get raped either by someone they’re intimate with, or someone they know, so if you’re intimate with more people than others, your risk of being raped goes up. That’s what I thought it meant.
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Thank you Faybian and Melissa J for hitting the nail on the head.
People who have more intimate partners are more likely to be the victims of rape due to the logical parameters of proximity.
This has been proven enough and is substantially common knowledge to the point where I need not quote a hundred links to make a point.
But it seems to make this point makes me misogynistic, much like calling the colour black, well, um, black is racist.
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Um, what?
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Hi Free Human Being
I totally understand where you are coming from. Here’s where I disagree with you though …
I don’t think rape or assault has anything to do with clothing choice. I really don’t. I’ve always been told (by police etc) that attackers go for the element of surprise. So if you look “vulnerable” (eg drunk or walking along listening to your iPod or are asleep in the back of a cab or are walking through a secluded area/carpark) that is what increases the chance of you being attacked. Is this okay? Absolutely not. But it’s the reality. So to help avoid being a victim, women have to (sadly) be aware of their surroundings. The more vulnerable you look — the easier the target you are to an attacker. Again, I’m not saying this is acceptable, it’s just a fact.
One thing I teach teenage girls is that the risk you take when you get smashed on alcohol is that your guard goes down. And your gut instinct goes off-kilter. You end up trusting people you wouldn’t usually trust. And agreeing to things you wouldn’t usually agree to.
Again. THE VICTIM IS NEVER TO BLAME but I don’t think we are ever going to have a world where women are not at risk of rape. Therefore, we need to (sadly) look out for ourselves.
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Um, ah, er…
What part do we disagree about?
I don’t disagree with a word you said, I think you might have read a different context to what I wrote.
Basically that there are ways to be safer and those way are as stated, but don’t shoot the messenger.
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The “I was wearing jeans + a sweater. Was it my fault?” really hit a soft spot. It makes me teary.
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Going to get shot down in flames for this and must preface by saying a) rape is one of the most serious crimes and I think should be punished more harshly than it is and b) no mater what a woman is wearing or not wearing has no bearing whatsoever on the rapist’s criminal culpability or appropriate punishment.
But I’ve never been convinced by the argument that what women wear or where they go has no bearing in their chances of being raped. I think there are some places and and times to go which will increase the chances of it happening and the same with some combination of clothing. If that is the case, from a rape minimisation point of view is it the right thing to do to ignore this information? To counter the argument that a man would never be given this advice, the SA Minister for Police recently got beaten up in a dodgy nightclub. Now obviously everyone has the right not to get beaten up regardless of where they go but the general attitude was that he should have known better than to visit a place where there was a greatly increased chance of that happening.
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By that logic I should never go jogging on my own again then
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I think by that logic you should know to be aware when you are out jogging. I live in Brisbane and a year or two ago there was a rapist assaulting women who were out jogging on bike paths. I guess we all could have just decided to stay home but I think it makes more sense just to be careful (leave the ipod off or whatever), otherwise the rapist has won in a way.
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I hear you, but let’s focus on teaching men to not rape rather than women to avoid being raped.
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Actually I would prefer not to put myself in obviously dangerous situations (like jogging alone at night with an ipod on when there is a known rapist on the loose, I think that would make me an idiot) because it’s up to men to stop being rapists. Of course men should be educated, I don’t see how trying to keep myself safe means that I think otherwise.
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The two aren’t mutually exclusive, of course – but it’s about time we said enough is enough to blaming the victim…and unfortunately the mentality that jogging with your iPod in is somehow putting yourself in danger is akin to that.
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Mia, what did you mean in your Mamamia TV clip with Zoe Foster when you asked “what is it with women who go to fancy dress parties and always have to dress as sluts?’ etc etc’ You used the word slut several times in a slut-shaming kinda way.
I found it cringeworthy and hypocritical and posted about it at the time, but no response. Have I misunderstood something?
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Um, you have a long memory there, Tess! Didn’t see your first comment on that post so apologies for not replying to that. Sometimes when I speak it’s with hyperbole for comedic affect. It’s not a word I would usually ever use but in that context, when talking about strange fancy dress costumes, it seemed appropriate. Granted, it may not have been.
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Well, it WAS only about 3 weeks ago! Still qualifies for short-term memory
It drew my attention because the clip was up around the same time as another article on slut-shaming. Yes, it stuck in my memory. Blatant hypocrisy tends to have that effect.
So you are going to excuse yourself by saying it was ‘hyperbole for comedic effect’? So in effect: ”C’mon I was only joking”? Ah, that old chestnut.
And you didn’t see my comment? Maybe not, (although I thought between you, you guys ‘read every comment’). Plenty of others did and agreed with my observation.
Anyhow, I have no wish to add to the anti-Mia vitriole you seem to attract, so I’ll stop right there. Yep, you’re human and you make mistakes. I know I do. Then again, I’m not Chair of the Federal Government’s National Body Image Advisory Group, nor do I write articles against ‘slut-shaming’. Not me. I’m just a dumb housewife. With no sense of humour.
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Hi Tess
The interview with Zoe Foster was actually recorded last July, I believe. And was “replayed” on the site three weeks ago. That may explain why your comment wasn’t seen. Or why Mia is having trouble recalling it.
Bec
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Oh okay! I get it. So last July Mia was into slut-shaming but now she’s not.
Thanks for clearing that one up.
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Tess, what would be more effective than your sarcasm would be a discussion about it. The double standards women tend to have. Our use of the word slut. How we truly feel when we see other women dressed provocatively.
Was Mia being a hypocrite? Possibly. Is that any worse than coming onto a website and being sarcastic and smug? I don’t think so.
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You shouldn’t use it for comedic effect. It ain’t funny.
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I’m a slut!
Nice post Mamamia.
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I see your point. But I don’t think it does any good to pretend these comments don’t exist…clearly they do. I think they’re abominable and I’m loving that a lot of people here are taking the commenter to task. If we never called people on their views, what would happen? Just a thought
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Yes but if you had someone say:
‘gays need to bashed’ or ‘holocaust never happened’ or ‘black people are inferior’ or other REVOLTING comments, you would delete them. But guess what? There are some sub-humans out there who think these things, just like there are some sub-humans who think rape is justified.
Rapes happen every second, of every day, all over the world.
We don’t need some asshole on Mamamia’s comment left up to remind us of this.
As I said, deeply disappointed guys.
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You should see what they said on my gay marriage post!
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I might get in trouble for this but this is just my opinion…. I completely agree that a women are just as likely to be raped wearing skinny jeans and a big jacket that covers everything, than if they were wearing a mini skirt and a low cut top. Statistics show this to be true and if a guy wanted to rape you he would do it regardless of what you’re wearing.
However I have to say that I used to go out on a saturday night as a teenager – not so long ago- and the amount of girls wearing skirts so short you can see what they had for dinner, low cut tops so low you can see nipples, and parade around the guys like little skanks, was enough to make me want to be sick.
I don’t condone rape at all. I think there is absolutely no excuse for it and I don’t what to use the sentence that these girls are “asking for it” cause no one does and that is a horrible and unfair thing to suggest but my genuine question is this: Why would they dress like this? just for a bit of attention? to impress the girls? just to have fun? cause you think it looks cute? Seriously I want to know cause in my view girls dressing like this and their behaviour around guys is never just fun or innocent. I think women have a responsibility to act and dress appropriately to some degree and men have the responsibility to not act upon these women who are all over them like a rash wearing next to nothing- or at least learn that no really does mean no and to view all women with respect regardless of the way they dress and this sort of behaviour.
Yes this is a complex issue and I’ve only really scratched the surface but I think that women, and men for that matter thinking they can do what they like when they like in general is just ignorant and is never true in real life.
We need men to respect us women- I think everyone would agree with that, but you can’t say that women don’t need to respect men in return.
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I will start by saying that I’m unsure of what you mean when you say “women should act and dress appropriately”…that seems to suggest that if they don’t, they accept the risk of the consequences. If that is the case, I cannot disagree more. I should be able to walk down the street nude and if someone propositions me, I should be able to say “No”. It’s that simple. Yes, I may have encouraged the attention by the choice I made but at the end of the day, one should not rape another. Period.
On the topic of clothing, a group of friends and I were discussing why girls dress the way they do when they go out, and we decided it was mostly based on attracting male attention. I know this may get a few people up in arms, “a lot of women dress to feel confident” etc. but we reached this conclusion based on the following:
Of our group, there were only 2 girls – myself, and my best friend’s girlfriend. It was a Thursday night with free basics, so pretty popular nightspot. Both of us were dressed pretty casually; jeans, nice top, a pair of nice shoes and a bit of makeup but nothing too over the top. We are both in serious relationships and we were there with our respective partners.
When we looked around the bar, we could see other couples. 9/10, the girl in the couple was dressed similarly to us; she looked nice, but wasn’t dressed to the nines. The girls who weren’t in a couple – that is, they had arrived in a group sans any male counterparts – were always the most dressed up and the most “sexy”. Those same girls were the ones chatting up guys at the bar.
So we figured they dress up to attract a potential mate. And they’re entitled to. Few people, male or female, would attract a member of the opposite sex (or same sex, if that’s what they’re looking for) if they’re wearing a potato sack. If they’re going out to meet someone, they will dress in the way they think is the most alluring. Girls might wear a low cut, tight top and guys might wear their butt-fitting jeans, a fancy belt and wax their chest.
But what if they don’t find someone they’re interested in? They should be able to go home. Alone. They shouldn’t have to worry about being violated. The way they dress *might* say that they are interested in potentially meeting someone (and maybe even hooking up with them). But they choose that person. That person doesn’t get to make that choice for them.
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“But what if they don’t find someone they’re interested in? They should be able to go home. Alone. ”
Agree 100%.
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Very well put.
It is about choice – to wear what you want; to go home with someone if you want; to go home alone if you want, and ultimately to not be raped.
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Beautifully put, Shannon.
I’m walking. I’m encouraging my daughters (27 and 17) and my son (16) to accompany me. Even if they don’t, at a minimum we’re talking about attitudes and thoughts and how what they see and hear in my house may be different to how the world sometimes works.
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“I completely agree that a women are just as likely to be raped wearing skinny jeans and a big jacket that covers everything, than if they were wearing a mini skirt and a low cut top.”
Just me, this isn’t directed at you personally, but your coincidental choice of words are hilariously ironic due to the use of the ”skinny jeans” defence in a number of sexual assault cases.
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I wonder how many marchers are attracted by the theatre, the dress up (and dare I say the word) rather than the message? I wonder how many people would attend if these elements were not along for the ride. I hope all of them, but I doubt it very much.
Just out of interest, what are the statistics for sexual assult caused by strangers in public (assumed to be reacting to women who dress provocatively). I thought sexual assult is almost always associated with people that know eachother in some way. Is this the most important message to be sending re sexual assult? I dont know, just asking, educate me???
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The outrage I feel towards victim blaming in relation to provocative dress, I’m sure would be felt by ALL women that would be willing to march in the parade, so I dare say none of them are attracted to “the theatre, the dress up.”
Women in the march are encouraged to wear whatever they normally would, fish nets are not compulsory.
As Me said, it might be a bit stunt-ish, but that is so the cause itself garners attention.
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Looking at the pictures, I am not quite sure marchers are wearing what they normally wear, but so be it, it matters not. My point was rather, can any one enlighten me as to whether this is really a major issue in society, that women are sexually assulted in large numbers due to what they are wearing out in public, or rather that sexual assult is MUCH more prevalent in more familiar settings with persons known to the victim. If it is the later, is it fair that this gets so much oxygen due to the theature and controversy associated when it is not really the biggest issue in sexual assult. Again, just asking, dont shoot me.
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I don’t think that more women are raped due to appearances but after a rape occurs it’s the first excuse to alleviate the perp of responsibility of their crime, after the fact. I think victim blaming is a huge issue!
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Is that true? The courts do not accept that as a defence anymore surely.
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They don’t.
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But it’s a way some women are pressured out of pressing charges, to save face.
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Do a quick search using the terms ‘judge blames rape victim’ and see what you get. Yes, “she asked for it” still factors into some rapists defence and sentencing.
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Anonymous (below), I am not trying to be difficult, but where does that idea come from, that victims are pressured out of even laying charges because someone comments on what they were wearing? Who does the pressuring?
Sorry, I just don’t get this, despite trying desperately. So far I have had responses to my posts saying a) that women are no more likely in general to be raped based upon what they are wearing (which I would agree on in the vast majority of cases based on my understanding of sexual assault statistics and the fact that usually it is someone the victim knows) and b) the courts no longer take this into consideration anyway.
Am I missing something as to why we all now have to run down city streets in our fishnets yelling snad screaming how we are proud to be sluts? Sexual Assault is shocking and needs to be eradicated from the world. This I just don’t get.
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Historically, the term “slut” is a misogynistic word used to shame women and their sexual behaviour.
No, it does not matter what women do or how they dress. Women continue to be sexually assaulted…
But many, including those in positions of influence, continue to overtly or covertly, blame victims for their own sexual assault.
One covert way to blame victims is to suggest women dress in a certain manner to protect themselves from rape…”we are just trying to help you”.
Another way is to rely on the ‘slutty’ history of a victim when defending a man’s treatment of her…. “well she did always like a root”.
Neither of these approaches are appropriate or in any way helpful. They are as insulting to men as they are to women. Yet they are so subliminally entrenched in our psyches that many of us do not even notice our own assumptions and our own language.
I think this movement and protest is about Victim Blaming Bruce. In its many forms.
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it is always, always brought up in sexual assault trials. it is known in legal circles (unofficially) as the slut defence. here’s a recent example :
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/rape-of-woman-in-skinny-jeans-not-possible-20100430-tzai.html
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sorry, this case does not demonstrate the point at all, this case was all about whether it was possible to get jeans off without some collaboration (note here, I am not making any inferences about this case in this point), it was nothing to do with the fact that the way the girl was dressed lead to the crime, or that she was ‘asking for it’. If you are going to site examples. at least make them relevant.
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I think it’s interesting that in order to have your idea heard in today’s society you need to have a ‘stunt’… yesterday’s news was all about this and the Matt Moran food wastage stunt. Both use profanity to create controversy…. it’s a good way to be heard through the noise. So while I don’t agree with the idea of reclaiming the word slut (why would you even want to, it’s a horrible word!) I do think the organisers have been incredibly clever in staging this to generate the maximum controversy and get the message out more widely.
I am incredibly sad that we are still trying to get the world to agree that there is no excuse for sexual assault. It doesn’t matter what I wear. It doesn’t matter how I dance. It doesn’t matter how much I’ve had to drink. How much I flirt. It doesn’t matter if I agree to come to your place. Or even if I start fooling around a bit. If I say no, that means no. It’s not a terribly difficult concept. That old Jodie Foster movie, ‘The Accused’, should be essential viewing for anyone who has problems grasping it.
If people think it’s appropriate to say that ‘she was asking for it’ by dressing or behaving a certain way, perhaps it’s also appropriate to say that by being unable to control his hormones and raping a woman a man is ‘asking’ for castration??
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It’s only a horrible word because of the conotations that it has. Take away the meaning and its just a bunch of letters and no more horrible than the word beautiful.
I agree totally with you on consent however, I find it interesting how communities that many people judge harshly such as BDSM are all over consent and how consent can be withdrawn at any time and yet the mainstream “vanilla” community still has to say its ok to dress how we want let alone say no after flirting.
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I hate that word and never use it to describe anyone. I agree with the sentiment and will definitely march in Brisbane. A wonderful cause!
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