by STEPHANIE BROWN
My girls and I walk into ballet with completely opposite emotions and expectations. They open the doors excited about what lies ahead. I enter with dread, knowing that for the next hour I will be at the mercy of whoever happens to be sitting within a metre radius of me.
Those people will dictate what I have to listen to and the topics of conversation I will be pressured to engage in.
This week was a doozy. Conversation drifted to religion.
I know this is a very politically incorrect topic to write about.
Spirituality is OK. Religion, not so much.
I know it will automatically switch people off or turn them on. Neither response I am too thrilled about, but the conversation has been swimming around in my brain and must be dealt with.
The mother in my radius this week was discussing her reasons for wanting to move out of the area in which we live. Top of her list, the thing she dislikes most about our leafy suburbia, is that everyone is religious; she perceives we live in a bible belt.
She went on to talk about the large percentage of parents and children in her son’s class who were involved with a church. She vented about feeling in the minority, saying that although people didn’t talk to her about their faith, she felt they were ‘preachy’.
All in all, it seemed that there was little evidence of actual problems or encounters, quite simply she didn’t like it, she didn’t like them. People weren’t like her and this made her uncomfortable.
The reactions were mixed. Some nodded politely, and some had confused looks on their faces. Some went as far as to point out that their experience was quite different, but no one directly challenged her, and I believe she would have walked away thinking people were in agreement with her.
I sat there pondering. I couldn’t help but feel I was caught up in a moment that could be somewhat farcical. If she had said she wanted to leave an area because she didn’t like that there were a group of Asian or Middle Eastern people, it would have been met with shock.
If she had said she was miserable because there were so many homosexual people she would have been heatedly challenged. If she had singled out any other group, even any other religious group, I think it would be seen as being narrow minded and intolerant, and she would have been put in her place.
In contrast, it seemed it was socially acceptable to isolate and attach negative stigma to people involved in the Christian faith. In essence, it was stereotyping and placing prejudice on a group of people without knowing or experiencing them as individuals.
Without getting into the nuts and bolts of whether the area is in fact a bible belt, I have felt uncomfortable about that conversation. It seemed to reinforce a trend, where people with a Christian faith in Australia are free game to be joked about or spoken of negatively in the paper, on the radio and in comic sketches.
You only have to look at regular columns in mainstream papers to find numerous examples of this kind of treatment. The jokes and criticism are often entertaining, and in some cases valid, but I have some level of concern. If the mainstream media took this approach to any other group it would be inappropriate and unacceptable. So why is it tolerated in this case?
Is it because Christianity is perceived to be the institution so many have experienced and are rebelling against? Is it acceptable to generalise and stereotype because most Australians have had some personal contact and experience so, as they see it, they are insulting their own and not a vulnerable minority group? Or do people really have such horrid experiences relating to Christians that their treatment seems valid? I really don’t know the answer, but I have some hopes that things will change.
Surely we should be aiming to remove stereotyping, generalising, pulling down, slandering and discriminating against any one group completely, not just selectively. I want my children to grow up in a world where these things are never acceptable, without exceptions.
I hope this mother can learn a few things. I hope she can learn to put aside her own experiences and prejudices and treat these people like individuals without projecting a uniform typecast on them. I hope she can teach her son that although he may be in the minority in his class, he will still have many things in common with his peers and to look for those commonalities rather than the differences.
I hope she can stop publicly making negative statements about a broad group of people based solely on their belief system. I hope she can extend the courtesy and respect to others that she demands for herself.
And more than anything, at ballet this week, I hope I can find the words to challenge her, because although it sounds more politically correct when couched in an atheistic viewpoint, to be that prejudiced and generalising towards one group is still pretty ugly.
Stephanie is an English and History teacher who is on a break while she raises her three children. She is rediscovering her love of writing while she tries to figure out what the next step is.
Do you and your friends or acquaintances ever talk about religion? Or is it strictly off limits?








Comments
239 Comments so far
Thank you! I’ve been saying this for a while now, but was always too afraid to say this in front of all of my friends for fear of being ridiculed because my views would challenge what they were so comfortable with slandering. Any bigotry or small-mindedness is poison. Why can’t we all see that?
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My Mum was very religious and it was so hard to have a conversation with her about anything meaningful. Every time I wanted a real conversation or to know her true feelings (and for her to understand mine) the religious dogma came out of her mouth. It always felt like I was talking to a brick wall.
Please understand that I’m not bagging all religions or religious people. I don’t really care what people do, but in my experience my Mum and her church and church friends made me feel like I was from another planet – a planet full of sad, lost, inferior losers who need to be ‘shown the way’.
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Other peoples religious preferences mean about as much to me as the colour of their poo.
Its irellevant in my point of veiw. We are not in a country where its shoved down our throats. Lets just all get along
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I bet she celebrates Christmas
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Thank you Stephanie for this article, I found it refreshing to take a step back and think broadly about criticism of other faiths. Particularly earlier this week with Q and A on the ABC – I found Catherine Deveny’s comments regarding another person’s faith and church very intolerant. I found myself asking; ‘why has the desire for tolerance become such an intolerant pursuit?’ Thank you again for your article.
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I am Catholic and my life is all about what is happening in the Church (not all the lovy dovy stuff but really what is happening). With my daughter now at a catholic school it is actually nice to know that if they aren’t particularly churchy then at least they have accept that church is part of the school they have chosen. My censorship doesn’t have to be so strong. I will note that I am one of the more openminded followers and wish the Church would catch up to where it’s followers are at. And although I don’t always like practices others decide to take part in – I am certainly not going to stop them being who they are (or preach to them!).
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What a great article, something that has been on my mind for a long time.
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I’ve been reading through all of the comments on this story, and I LOVE all of the atheist people on Mamamia! I have realised that I am far, far from alone.
This has given me great hope for the beautiful, loving world, grounded in reality, I know we are becoming.
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Why does everyone on here think that Christians are the only people in Australia who dont agree with homosexuality, seriously where did they read this memo? My husband..biggest athiest around..also a homophobe (one thing we dont agree on), his statement when I challenge him….”ugh its an outie not an innie”. And unfortunately a lot of 30+ men are like this in my state of Queensland (and particularly in rural areas).
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It’s okay to bag religion for the same reason it’s okay to bag astrology or homeopathy or any other idea that has no basis in reality.
Your comparisons to race and sexuality are false. Religion is a choice. You should compare apples to apples. If she had been a religious person complaining that everyone was an atheist, would that have been okay? She has every right to be concerned about the kind of people on the perimeter of her children’s life, and every right to be cautious that some parent might start getting their Jesus on at a birthday party or at school.
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Explain to me exactly how it’s okay to bag anyone, simply because their lifestyle choice is not something you agree with? I believe you have missed the point entirely. Intolerance seeps through your words. And intolerance is the issue.
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One could argue that no religion is also a religion. It’s a set of beliefs that she will pass on to her children as many parents do, be it Christianity, Buddism or Islam to name a few. Perhaps this ballet mother is looking for diversity within her community however poorly expressed. If nothing else it’s rude to insult a person’s town and community. I am often put in a similar situation where people have many unpleasant comments and observations of the area of Sydney I choose to live and it is invariably offensive to me.
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No religion is a religion like abstinence is a sex position. Or “Off” is a TV channel.
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Rick for the win on this one.
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Sorry Rick I wasn’t meaning to insult your beliefs at all. I was just trying to express that although I no longer follow a set religion I have my own set of beliefs. I don’t see the need to group or classify people based on their beliefs whether they follow a certain congregation or not.
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MM, I’ve tried to comment on this post a few times. I know I haven’t said anything against dinner party rules, so could you PLEASE ressurect my comments (get it? get it?)
Ta muchly
Josie
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Or when Christianity dictates secular law
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I am a Christian. I have no interest in converting anyone but every atheist I know constantly brings up religion in general conversation and goes on and on and on about it.
It’s exhausting and they (the ones I know) are almost obsessed with proving religion wrong.
I don’t understand that at all.
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I’m an Atheist, and I have never, not once, spoken first about it to anyone.
Even when another person brings up the topic of religion, I say I’m an Atheist and leave it at that. I don’t like anyone preaching, religious or otherwise.
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Most atheists don’t try and prove religion wrong, they ask theists to prove it right. No proof has yet been presented.
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Negative stereotypes of Christianity are quite understandable, given the cases of sexual abuse, intolerance for marriage equality, the ACP’s antics and various outrageous quotes from people high up in various Christian churches (eg. Peter Wallace a few days ago), not to mention all the media coverage.
But surely any educated person could acknowledge how meaningless it is to stereotype? The comparison to racism/homophobia is excellent – why are we so selective about what we choose to be narrow-minded about? It’s hypocritical. That’s not to say the Christian church isn’t narrow-minded in some regards, but it’s certainly safe to say most Christians wouldn’t endorse Wallace’s comparison between the gay ‘lifestyle’ and the smoker’s ‘lifestyle’, for example. Yet we still attempt to justify disliking, or being ‘enlightened and beyond’ Christianity through saying the religion as a whole is synonymous with such claims. Such people should certainly be condemned for their actions, but not under the umbrella term of Christianity. Somehow, the modern “I proudly oppose religion because I’m ever so evolved” trend just doesn’t seem completely valid. A few self-identifying Christians are unforgivably intolerant, but surely it’s possible to be logical, rational, intelligent and religious simultaneously.
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Atheism is NOT a religion, even though it’s become “fashionable” for some religious people to say this. Some Atheists can become extremely strident in their views and can become just as tiresome as those who are religious fundamentalists.
The evangelism I particularly dislike is the crass American “model” of TV Evangelism and it’s sad to see it being adopted in some Australian churches.
These churches actively seek out young, lively, well-heeled people who can give their enthusiasm and Tithe money to support these churches.
They often attract followers by providing venues which can supply music and the opportunity to perform on stage as musicians, presenters and singers.
We know young people who’ve been quite bedazzled by all of the hype and noisy worship and while I acknowledge that humans can be helped and somewhat comforted by such techniques – some part of me is concerned by these methods of recruitment.
I rather like the simple faith and pragmatic ministering of “The Vicar of Dibley” even though I’m an Agnostic who finds comfort in meditation.
“Door Knockers” bother me a lot, not just for their lack of consideration for the fragility of the people they disturb, but because they “need” to engage you in a dialogue about their faith – even if you disagree, because it makes their fantasy even more real.
Yes, I said FANTASY…………and I have a right to that opinion.
Mainstream modestly religious people can be wonderful, helpful, caring human beings who’ve found a belief that’s close to their personal “take” on things – a “good fit”.
If you’ve found a way to be happy& peaceful & kind – I’m happy for you…..keep doing that, for everyone’s sakes……
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I love this comment!
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The reason it’s ok is because it’s poking fun at the dominant culture. It wouldn’t be ok on an individual level, and I doubt she would be so rude to someone’s face about their faith. But, just as sexism against men is funnier and more harmless than sexism against women, bagging Christianity is just settling the score a little bit. Are men, on an individual level, as bumbling and foolish as some cultural representations? Of course not, but it doesn’t harm them to be portrayed as such because it isn’t part of a centuries long narrative of oppression, like it is when women are negatively portrayed.
As you say, if this woman was uncomfortable with Asians or another religion, that would be ill-received – but in that case, she’d be participating in oppression. Here, she isn’t.
It’s not exactly classy, but it’s harmless.
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I understand your point however whose to say that it is harmless if someone has an emotional reaction to it? The author of this post clearly did and just because it is not oppressive to be sexist against men, I know quite a few men who get just as offended by it as women do when it is against them
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To answer this article’s heading, when did it become okay to bag Christianity?
I thought I might give my answers:
- when christian churches cover up sexual abuse
- when christian churches treat gay people like second-class citizens and also declare being gay to be a greater health hazard than smoking
- when christian churches stop women taking a greater role in the church
- when the Catholic Church sticks its head in the sand over the link between condom use and the prevention of AIDS
That’s all.
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What about when they feed the poor, care for starving children and house the homeless and mentally ill.
It’s a shame that everyone focuses on the paedophile priests & the dogmatic aspects without acknowledging the ones who grow vegies in the church grounds so that the homeless can eat a balanced diet, that organise clothing drives to keep them warm, that welcome homosexuals into their community, that support a family when they go through a tragedy.
There are a million stories of local Churches and Christians contributing to their communities in a postive way every day but unfortunately those stories don’t sell newspapers.
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So is it okay to bag Muslims because:
– of the terrorist attacks in Bali, New York, London …
– they also hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong
– they also stop women taking a greater role in the mosque
– etc.
I don’t think so.
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Yes, anyone who justifies poor behaviour on an imaginary friend deserves a bagging.
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Hmm, what an interesting topic.
I think the reason we “bag” religion has a lot to do with the huge influence Christianity has on Australian life – e.g. I think marriage equality would’ve been achieved much earlier if it wasn’t for the church’s influence. A lot of aspects of Aus life is based an a Christian value system. I believe if something has so much influence, it should be looked at critically – whether it be religion, political parties, newspapers or what’s popular on the telly.
I myself am an atheist, and probably have bagged out Christianity, although never (or rarely) in front of Christians. My workplace are all atheists, or agnostic at most, probably because we’re all scientists. We’re all pretty open minded and what we bag about the church more than anything else is their well-publicised positions on marriage equality, and equality between the sexes, along with issues around contraception and abortion.
That said, I don’t think all Christians (or even most) subscribe to all the above positions. By partner of 10 years was brought up Catholic, and although he’s not practicing, he believes in the basic tenants of Christianity. That said, he also believes in marriage equality (some of his best friends are gay), contraception, that sex before marriage is OK and normal, and that abortion should be available as a choice. So I also know you can’t tar all Christian’s with one brush.
The woman described in the article probably just wanted to make her position clear “hey, I know I live in a Christian area, but I’m not a Christian”. I would not like to be completely mistaken for something I’m not based on the area I live in. (And I don’t think it’s fair to liken it to race – I would hardly feel the need to qualify “Hey, I live in Chatswood, but I’m not Asian”).
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I find the door knocker types to be some of the loveliest people I have ever met. I usually always have time and patience for them because I understand that they have good intentions and are sincere in their beliefs even if their beliefs don’t meld with mine.
I don’t think there’s any reason to be nasty to good people.
Sure it can get annoying, but so can people who don’t indicate at roundabouts and people who use a credit card, flybuys and chat for ten minutes at the express line. Whatareyagonnado?
Fughettaboutit!
It surprises me how many people are just as zealous about their political persuasions, yet can’t draw the parallel and are downright nasty.
No, I don’t want your religious beliefs dictating how I live, but maybe I don’t want your political leanings dictating how I live even more.
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In general the more intelligent a person is the less likely they are to be religious. One reason to be very concerned about religion is that the current opposition being the LNP have many members that openly propose that they are driven by and act on the articles of their faith. The leader of the opposition Abbott is very much affected by his Catholicisim and the philosphy of Bob Santamaria and the DLP. Vevanti Wells and Cory Barnardi are also MPs who profess to be driven by their Christian values and are anti abortion. This is why we should be very concerned about the affect of religion within our society.
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“In general the more intelligent a person is the less likely they are to be religious” – I think that is a massive generalisation, some of the most intelligent people I know are religious. I know religious scientists, engineers, mathematicians, designers, architects… i.e. university trained professionals. While it’s less frequent to find religious people in these fields, I don’t think you can necessarily link intelligence and religion that way. Nature vs nurture, eh?
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I echo this sentiment, most of the most intelligent people I know – doctors at the head of their field, quantum physicists writing PhDs at 22, lawyers, geophysicists, engineers, partners at large international firms are committed Christians.
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“In general the more intelligent a person is the less likely they are to be religious” – I think that is a massive generalisation
Not really a generalisation, there has been research.
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Hi Goose – no it actually has been scientifically studied and linked – the more educated a person becomes the less likey they are to believe in God.
Neil deGrasse Tyson covers it in one of his lectures – you can look for it on Youtube
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Wow what an insensitive and incorrect comment to make. It’s interesting that it proves the point of this post. Imagine if you had said that about homosexuals, do you think that might have received more of a public outcry? especially if someone in the media said it. It’s ironic really.
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You must be one of those very intelligent people then. Lucky you. If you are correct in your assertion, then we should all be very nervous. I want to know how on earth so many of our politicians, research scientists, doctors, lawyers, and philosophers who do embrace a personal faith graduated from their learning institutions in the first place. After all, they clearly have a lower level of intelligence than atheists. What’s our country coming to? I don’t know who I am more fearful of, the less intelligent politicians and philosophers who have a faith, or the ones that don’t believe, yet think they are more intelligent than the rest. Beliefs like this could lead to all kinds of slander and abuses. But that’s the issue the writer was addressing in the first place.
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Sipper only said that they’re less LIKELY to be religious – he/she wasn’t implying that intelligence and religiousness are mutually exclusive. I have read the same information (that there is a negative correlation between intelligence and being religious) in a research study before but can’t remember where, sorry!
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Dude, I’m a 5th year student whose about to complete a double degree in Law and philosophy. I graduated from north sydney boys high school. I can tell you that level of intelligence has nothing at all to do with your likelihood to be christian…
The ability to gather evidence and make a value based judgement on the information you have found is, in fact, a mark of intelligence. Perhaps the reason why you find less people in all fields (not just the academia) who are not christian is because most people arn’t christian…
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We don’t think we’re smarter than everyone else – we just think we’re more rational
The study doesn’t conclude that Atheists are smarter, what it concludes is that the more educated someone becomes the less likely they are to believe in God – ie the highest percentage of educated Atheists have attained PHD level.
Just think about it though, just because someone declares themselves to be a Christian doesn’t mean that they actually are or that they even believe in God. There are many people in our society that don’t want to openly say they don’t believe in god.
There is actually a website devoted to anonymous Preachers who have ralised that they no longer believe in God but are ashamed to admit it – it’s called The Clergy Project.
Atheism is still not widely accepted or understood – many people don’t declare themselves Atheist because it makes others uncomfortable in a lot of situations.
Also many religious people are indoctrinated into faith at such a young age that when they reach adulthood they never really think critically about what they actually believe, nor do they seek out alternate opinions which may change the way they think.
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I have been incredibly shocked to discover since moving to Australia, how religion, more specifically Christianity and Catholisism reign supreme in your political system ( just for the record, i love it here). However this is just plain wrong and outdated. While there is no reason to punish the individual going about their daily business, when beliefs on issues like abortion and same sex marriage are pushed onto the general public it leaves a wide open gap for negativity and prejudice against said religion. Would Christians accept new laws in line with Muslim beliefs? I doubt it. Your political leaders are the worst spokespeople for religion given their outdated views and preachy nature which IS pushed onto the general public. I understand why she feels this way, Australia does feel like the bible belt sometimes. Even America, known for being so religious has accepted basic human rights in many states.
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There is a lot of diversity in viewpoints about the topics you mention amongst Christians. Some of the most vehemently expressed opinions that are anti-gay marriage and anti abortion I have heard from people who are not Christians. There is no single Christian viewpoint on these subjects, likewise no single viewpoint on refugees seeking asylum in Australia.
I think this is the author’s point isn’t it? Individuals vary in their beliefs and practices – hating or maligning a person because of your untested perceptions of a group they belong to isn’t a great way to go.
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Great article! The point is not whether you agree or disagree with the religion, or whether you’ve met annoying Christians, it’s about giving the same respect to what is (these days) a minority group as you would to others (Muslims or Jews to draw a closer parallel than sexual preference or race). Stephanie, you articulated so well something I’ve thought for a long time! The media is the worst culprit!
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Well put, Lauren, I agree Stephanie articulated so well what many of us face. I think we are seeing an uprise in persecution of Christians and hopefully it will bring us together.
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I’ve had people (christians) try to preach and convert me over the years. I know some churches in the Christian faith are far more active that way. If someone is a Christian (as I actually am, just not going to church) and can have a conversation about religion, or even the bible without trying to preach/convert I’m fine with that. I would be the same with others of all religions, although I know the Jewish religion doesn’t encourage conversion.
I don’t think it’s fine to bash the Christian religion at all. It deserves the same level of respect any other religion does. Yes bad things have been done in the name of religion, but so have good things.
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I find it so disappointing that so many people are so invested in ridiculous superstitious mumbo jumbo. The rest of the civilized world shakes its collective head when they see how unevolved we are as a society. The other countries in the world that have this level of religiosity are not ones that we would wish to be members of a club with.
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I am not personally religious however I take great offence by you calling anything “superstitious mumbo jumbo”. If you don’t understand something just agree to disagree. How can you be benefiting anyone by insulting them?
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I don’t think Dave’s comment is disrespectful. He isn’t swearing or being aggressive. He is merely expressing his opinion on what he thinks Christianity is.
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It’s amusing that you assume Dave doesn’t understand religion. I have studied it at some length over the past 6 years and I think he’s found the perfect words to describe religion.
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Hi Dave, clearly you aren’t a religious person, but no need to dump on people’s beliefs. Keep it respectful. Thanks.
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In the last census about 23% of Australians identified themselves as not religious. I really thought the figure would be a bit higher. But compared to America we are not very religious at all.
Can you imagine an unmarried atheist woman being elected POTUS?
I thought most countries were more religious than us.
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Does that mean 77% us religious, in some sense of the word? Sounds like the silent majority.
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Hardly silent. A google search for Jim Wallace or Peter Jensen reveals quite a bit of talking.
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What an enlightening article and ensuing discussion about religion- I thought all religious discussions were destined to lead to name calling and contempt, but am glad to be proven wrong!
My own take on religion is that most of them seem to refer to a god that has very similar characteristics, values and ideologies, but the nuances can be remarkably different both within and across different faiths. It strikes me as curious that religion, by definition something that should bring people together, can cause such discord and even hatred.
I believe in spirituality, in a god, but I don’t think I need to be part of a church to communicate with him. I believe in a set of core values that are similar to many found in mainstream religions. I believe my relationship with god is my own. For this reason I find it confronting to discuss religion or be pushed in one particular direction, especially by religious entities that subjugate particular groups, (other religions, homosexuals,atheists). Equally, I find it strange that someone would want to move suburbs simply because of the faith of their neighbours.
If I had to pick a religion, I would probably choose to be Hindu, as one of the core beliefs is that everyone can practice whatever religion they choose. But I think believing in god doesn’t necessarily tie someone to a particular religion. And I think I would just try and change the conversation rather than move suburbs because my neighbours had a particular belief system.
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Fabulous article, and some equally fabulous eloquent comments below.
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MM, your spam filter hates me. Please find my comments! This is my thing, yaknow!
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Mine too!
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We get door knockers all the time. Last time they knocked I told them I was a practicing Catholic (I am) and i am not interested in discussing their religion, and they haven’t knocked since. In fact, they were of our road the other week and they specifically avoided our house.
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as an Atheist, I find it incredibly annoying when people knock on my door wanting to tell me all about god. I don’t run around telling others how ridiculous I think believing in god is, or what I think of religion in general. The same courtesy would be much appreciated.
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I hate door knockers with passion. We have a few churches right near our house so often get them. I politely say ‘Thank you but I’m not interested’ and they keep trying to talk to me and give me brochures. I tell them I’m not interested again, then they go and drop some brochures in my mailbox. It drives me crazy!
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Just politely say no and close the door! Gosh, how hard is that? Do you also get upset if charities knock? They’re pushing an agenda too.
Or – if it bothers you so much – why not a sticker – something like ‘no junk mail’? How are they supposed to show you the same ‘courtesy’ if they have no idea an atheist is behind the door.
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I do have a sticker, that states, “DO NOT KNOCK, unsolicited door knocking here is unlawful”. guess who still knocks.
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We made a small note that we put next to our doorbell button on the front door that says “No religious callers please” and we haven’t had any more callers
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Kathy, I think Atheist makes a good point.
Atheists don’t go around pushing their religious beliefs on strangers. So, why do religious people feel as though they have a right to knock on someone’s door and start pushing their religious beliefs?
It’s not so much about the door-knock but the arrogance behind it.
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I find the opposite. At my place of work, the most vocal (and angry) people are the atheists telling anyone who professions to be religious that they are stupid… I’m all up for discussing stuff, but sometimes it’s less civil than that, and I usually get that from the atheists. That’s my personal experience.
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Athiests don’t go around pushing their religious beliefs on strangers? Respectfully, that is categoriacally untrue in my experience. Just last week in the US an atheist group demanded that a 50 y.o. stone tablet outside a school be pulled down as they found it offensive… sadly, they won. And I’ve lost count of how many atheist groups have demanded that nativity scenes not be displayed in shopping centres at Christmas time. My brain is jammed with so many examples of an atheistic world view being forced upon others. In all honesty, in the case of Christianity, I rarely see that ‘religion’ being pushed on others, more like Christians are desperately trying to hold on to what little rights we have left. We can’t speak out about our beliefs for fear or being labelled haters, bigots, intolerant (which always makes me sigh) etc. I believe what I do, because I believe it to be true, as does everyone who has any kind of beliefs. I will talk about it because I believe it to be important. If others don’t want to hear, they are free to take or leave what I say. But please don’t say that it’s only the religious who force their views on others, it’s simply untrue.
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Can you name any of the nativity displays that were banned?
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“Just last week in the US an atheist group demanded that a 50 y.o. stone tablet outside a school”
Which school was that?
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“I believe what I do, because I believe it to be true, as does everyone who has any kind of beliefs.”
Well I don’t know about this. For example, some people don’t believe in traditional medicine and others do. One group has scientific evidence behind their beliefs meaning their beliefs *are* actually true while the other group has nothing to back their beliefs meaning their beliefs *aren’t* actually true. So I don’t think you can just lump it all in one category.
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I have to agree with Rob. In my experience, and having quite a few close friends who are very religious, but not being religious myself, it is aethiests who seem to feel that they are doing a favour to other people by pointing out what they think is the invaliditiy of religious views. I will never say that someone shouldn’t have an opinion, but there is such a difference between a respectful discussion and an imposition of views.
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Yep, like the others here, I would have to say that my Athiest friends are much more pushy than my Christian friends. Without a doubt. For some reason it is fine for Athiests to shove their ideas down other’s throats, but so not okay for Christians to do it. Many are such hypocrites. As for Athiest memes etc through Facebook, that’s supposed to be “cool”. Other way around and it’s apparently offensive. Sigh.
I think anyone with strong ideas is the issue here. No matter what side of the religious fence you sit on.
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If atheists didn’t go around pushing their religions beliefs on strangers I would never have heard of Richard Dawkins.
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Has Richard Dawkins knocked on your door and asked to discuss the fact that god doesn’t exist with you?
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I don’t think it’s arrogance that makes them door-knock. They believe that they are trying to help people. At least that’s why my Mum did it. She thought that she had something that people could benefit from, so she wanted to tell people about it. She wasn’t arrogant about it at all.
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Kathy,
it’s not okay to knock on strangers’ doors regardless of your agenda. If you really want to show people curtesy, don’t knock on their door. Ever. And yes, it is actually hard to politely say no and close the door.
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Knocking on doors is at least a somewhat more pleasant alternative to the religious conversion methods of the past thousand years – invasions and holy wars!
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Agreed.
Or passed flyers in entertainment areas telling us we’re going to hell.
Or (this happened 2 weeks ago) coming into my house as a guest of a guest and insisting on telling us about the ‘good book’ and ‘Our Lord’ and trying to read some verses to us, even when I say that spirituality is a private thing and politely request that “we keep our religious viewpoints to ourself”.
Can.Not.Stand.It.
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I have found the perfect response to the doorknockers – tell them politely that you are Jewish. For some reason they have no comeback and I am left alone. They seem to be happy that I have some religion and I am happy becasue they go away! When I lived in another state they apparently had noted my status and consciously choose to pass me by. Bliss!
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Next time, cover yourself with tomato sauce and say breathlessly, ‘Quick! I need you to help me get rid of the body!’. They’ll probably leave you alone after that.
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Rofl! Does that work for door to door salesmen as well?
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When I was little, I opened the door to a doorknocker. I was wearing a pair of my mum’s bras and suspender belt. The cat shot through the door wearing a bonnet and dolls dress. I don’t think he ever came back!!!
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On the one hand, I can’t stand holier-than-thou atheists who conveniently forget that religion isn’t the only source of human evil.
On the other, if a religion is doing damage – whether through homophobia, misogyny, or racism – it needs to be open to criticism.
http://www.ipomenscarlet.com/
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Hi all. Really enjoying following the discussion and reading all the different viewpoints.
Just wanted to clarify that I agree with the people who are saying there is a big difference between being involved in a religious group, and being of a certain race or sexual orientation. I was in no way trying to say that they were the same thing, and I can see that the linking of those groups together was not the wisest thing to do. I apologise if that caused anyone grief.
The point I was trying to make is that no matter what ‘group’ people belong to, regardless if that is through genetics or choice, they should not be stereotyped or have a typecast placed on them.
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You articulated so well what many of us have thought and face. Thank you for having the courage to speak. As we witnessed on Q&A this week, it seems persecution of Christians is alive and well in our country-which was founded on Christian values. I hope one of the things that comes out of this is Christians uniting together and supporting each other.
Keep up the writing Steph!
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Interesting view of Australian history- didn’t realize the aboriginal people were Christians. How about the multicultural society Australia was founded on- all the Chinese Christians as well wre they??
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“The reactions were mixed. Some nodded politely, and some had confused looks on their faces. Some went as far as to point out that their experience was quite different, but no one directly challenged her, and I believe she would have walked away thinking people were in agreement with her.”
This says more about her than her audience. Who wants to get into a heated argument at ballet of all places? In front of the kids? She must have known that she was talking to a bunch of people who would more than likely disagree with her? Her mind was made up and there is no way to change that, so everyone else did the thing that I always do when confronted with anyone with a strong opinion about *anything* – religion, politics, mummy wars, men, money, other cultures etc etc – I just show neither agreement nor disagreement and disentangle myself from that person as soon as I possibly can.
It is not just limited to religion.
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mm, i agree. the fact that some people said “that’s not been my experience” (which is what i would have said if i’d disagreed) instead of openly challenging her (what should they say? “well, that’s bullshit!!”?) seems pretty sensible to me.
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Although I think you make some very valid points in this article I’d like to point out something that I take issue with. I take issue with you making this association between being Asian, middle eastern or homosexual and being Christian. Christianity and indeed religion in general is based upon faith, which is an active choice to believe in something without or in some cases in spite of evidence or proof. There are certain things that you (in most cases) believe and or support by taking up the label of being a Christian. In denotes a set of values and beliefs and even if you don’t believe in the whole doctrine of the Christian church you are still associated with it.
Homosexuality on the other had is a completely different issue as is being Asian or middle eastern. There are no set values or beliefs that these people have to inherently adhere to. These are not choices; these are just the way people are, which is no more in their control than being male is in mine.
It is also worth pointing out that while there is a certain level of discrimination and ridicule towards Christians, I hardly think that they are the hardest done by as far as faith based bullying. The classic example would be the treatment of Muslims in predominantly Christian based nations.
I think there has to be a healthy amount of debate surrounding religion. I think people should be able to discuss it and question it. We have the right to do it and I think we should take full advantage of that. Where I think you article truly has the right point is that it should be done in a way that is respectful.
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What a great comment!
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Last year, I was in year 12 in a large, multicultural school. I was bullied a lot because I am Christian. I was told that people like me were rapists, and while waiting for the bus I was told to step in front of it and kill myself. All this because of what I believe in. I have never spoken about my beliefs unless a close friend asks what Christianity is like, and never rubbed in in anybody else’s face. I wish everyone would realise that we are people too. No one would dare criticise someone because of their sexuality, or anything else, but it seems that wherever I am it is ok to bully people like me because of something I believe in. This story really resonated with me because it’s like this ALL THE TIME, except for at church.
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All the time? Really? Unless you’re going round trying to convert people, I doubt that.
Sexuality isn’t a choice – that’s why it’s unacceptable to criticise someone about it. Religion is something you decide to believe in, your faith should be strong enough to stand up to scrutiny.
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Scrutiny yes, but not bullying. Proper debate over any issue should be welcomed, but ridicule and hurtful comments don’t have their place in any constructive conversation.
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“No one would dare criticise someone because of their sexuality”
Are you being serious with this? I can only assume you’ve never met a gay person in your life because they would have told you that this couldn’t be further from the truth.
And I agree with Kris re “ALL THE TIME,” this has to be a great exaggeration.
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I went to school with a girl who told us (her closest friends) that we were, and I quote, “heathen whores and demonesses” for getting a cervix cancer vaccinations.
She is apart of a very large large Christian church, which is very popular among young people. The people who hold the services and who she goes to church with told her these things. I know this, because she told me. It was a very popular idea that vaccinating against cancer pitted people against God.
I completely understand where this woman is coming from. Religion isn’t about spirituality. It’s about fear mongering and sanctioning people, and I don’t want to be around it AT ALL.
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Shellystone, FYI if this ever happens to you again, pls understand that anyone who tries to make you feel bad about yourself in the name of Chrisitan religion is really misguided. I hope one day you have a positive interaction with someone who is actually in a close relationship with God because the only thing you should feel is loved and accepted.
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Such a great article and so true! I’ve thought the same thing for a long time. I agree with what others have said about commentators such as Catherine Deveny who continuously bag Christianity in a way no other group in society would be (or should be) expected to cop.
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No-one has the right to feel not-offended, ever. That’s what it boils down to; it’s the price of freedom of speech and belief.
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1. It’s unacceptable to bag Muslims etc as they are seen as a minority culture. Christianity is not a minority in Australia. It does not occupy the margins. It is the reason no government, even one presided over by an atheist, will not legalise gay marriage. Christianity is the dominant culture: hence our Christian public holidays such as xmas and easter.
2. Christianity is a prosletysing religion, that is, its brief is to convert people. This is the reason many non-christians find it creepy and preachy. It seems as though Christians are always waiting for a chance to introduce you to the word of the lord.
3. Christianity has been behind some of the most horrendous atrocities in history. It is still often behind some incredibly cruel and narrowminded politics, including the likes of Westboro baptist church in the us.
4. Christianity has a huge blind spot: you aren’t allowed to believe in any other God but the Christian God, but he is no more real than Jupiter or Thor, right? There is no more evidence for God’s existence and yet people who worship other ways or other gods are derided as primitive or stupid by some Christians.
For all these reasons, Christianity may seem like fair game to some. I don’t condone that. Christianity is obviously experienced and expressed differently by different people. I hate it, but I wouldn’t make anybody feel ashamed or uncomfortable about it, unless they tried to push it on me.
Thanks for listening.
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I am not a practising Christian but felt compelled to point out the many and large flaws in this argument, which tend to prove the point that the author was originally trying to make about hostility towards Christianity in society.
While I think point 1 is a fair point, point 2 assumes Christianity is one homogenous, monolithic religion, when it is a group of religions, some of which support aggressive prosletysing, while others don’t at all. As a girl who grew up Catholic, we were always led to believe the “happy clappers” who tried to convert people were “kinda weird”. (this snobbery within Christianity shows the differences).
Point 3 is correct to an extent. But Christianity doesn’t hold the monopoly here. It’s pretty fair to say religion generally – particularly fundamentalist religion of any brand – has been “behind some of the most horrendous atrocities in history”.
Point 4, I’m sorry, is just banal. To suggest Christianity is more guilty of encouraging a belief in things that can’t be proven with evidence is just unsustainable. What about religions that encourage belief in reincarnation? Karma? Spirits in trees?
I’m no defender of organised religion in any form, but I’d suggest the reason people attack Christianity is that “familiarity breeds contempt”. The mainstream Christian religions are responsible for a huge amount of the charity and community work in this country – but the only thing we ever read or hear about are the (admittedly disgraceful & abhorrent) things like paedophile priests.
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Amen!
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I understand where you are coming from in general terms, but thought it was a bit harsh to criticise this woman on one of Australia’s most popular websites. How will she, and the other ballet Mums feel when they read this?
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So….are you really saying that Stephanie should have saved her critique for another forum that is a little less public lest it offend ?
I am truly astounded.
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No, Bradley, I am saying I found it mightily hypocritical of her to be saying it is never acceptable to put down a group of people, yet she totally gets stuck into these ballet mums. If I were one of the mums she was talking about I would feel shocked and quite embarrassed to read that this was what she thought if me and my conversations. Wouldn’t you, Bradley?
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If Stephanie “got stuck into” these ballet Mums, I found it awfully tame.
No names were mentioned, no one’s reputation was damaged.
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I only saw a put-down of a single Mum, no names mentioned, and it was more in the context of putting down her words and actions rather than her as a person.
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Great article Stephanie.
I envy those who have found a religion/way of life that fullfills them and gives them a sense of belonging to something bigger.
While I believe in a high power of some sort I am yet to trully find a spirituality that totally fullfills me and gives me comfort.
Some of the comments below have really given me something to think about.
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Stephanie thanks for sharing your experience in such an eloquent way, your story opens up a discussion topic I’m very interested in. Obviously I can’t speak for the woman you overheard, but I would like to share my perspective if it was me in her situation.
Living in an area where there is something tying people together that you are separate from is hard. It doesn’t matter if that connection is religion, language, tradition or something else, if you do not have a direct link to it you will feel somewhat isolated. Unfortunately that is the other side of having a strong sense of community – it can take a while to break through and feel accepted/welcomed etc.
Now some people might be more open to making an effort to engage in the community, but some might not. They might simply feel isolated, identify one of the main causes of that isolation and decide what to do from there. It sounds like the latter is what this woman has chosen to do. I think she would have made that decision anyway, even if it was another religion in question, or a different cultural element that she saw binding the neighbourhood together.
From my perspective, if I was living in a neighbourhood where I felt isolated, I would try to figure out why. If I felt there was an obvious reason, such as a belief of some kind which everyone else held, then I would use that understanding to help make a decision about what to do next. Hopefully in my case that would mean engaging with people and breaking down barriers (imagined or real), but it’s easy to see how leaving could also be an appealing option in some cases. Especially if people believed something I couldn’t relate to.
I’m not saying this kind of action is right, but what you feel is what you feel. Some people can overcome that (I try to keep an open mind on things as often as possible), and some can’t. It’s different for everyone. And in the case of the woman in your story, I think she would have said similar things if it had been a different religion (or something else) in question.
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Great comment.
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Thanks Jamila
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I am not religious. But I don’t believe that gives me the right to bag anyone who is. I’m a great believer in “whatever gets you through the night”. So if your particular tipple of choice is religion…that’s fine by me. You can go ahead and practice your faith in whatever way you choose so long as you don’t try to ram it down my throat. I always open to religious discussion and have shared some interesting conversations with some of the people who come knocking on my door, religious text in hand.
I do get tired of the PC atheist brigade knocking the Christians and the traditions of their faith. The atheist does not have to follow whatever the Pope or the Archbishop of wherever preaches. Have you noticed how the trendy atheist complains like buggery every time the Cardinal of wherever conducts a mass or makes a pronouncement, yet never utters a word of disapproval at anything said by a leader of a non-Christian faith no matter how hair curling that utterance might be. If we are to be honest here, there are quite a number of hair curling utterances made by the leaders of all faiths. But it is considered acceptable to complain about some and allow others to float over the top of one’s head because you can’t disagree with a minority religion, can you ?
I don’t like hypocrites regardless of whether they be wearing a crimson robe, insisting do as they say rather than as they do, or shouting abuse and waving a placards in the faces of parishioners as the leave their place of worship. In some instances I have found the blatant intolerance of the atheist stronger and more vicious than the intolerance of the believer.
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Bradley – GUESS WHAT? I think we finally agree on something!
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It had to happen one day, I suppose.
Isn’t healthy debate wonderful ?
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“So if your particular tipple of choice is religion…that’s fine by me. You can go ahead and practice your faith in whatever way you choose so long as you don’t try to ram it down my throat.”
THIS is the crux of the matter.
1. I have yet to find a Muslim, Jew, or Buddhist knocking on my front door, trying to convert me to their religion, and;
2. I’m really fed up with Christians trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of the community – regarding reproductive choices via Govt legislation, education via Govt legislation (ethics classes, anyone?), grandstanding against rights of minorities, and;
3. The abysmal lack of action against child sexual abuse in certain Christian denominations.
People will be VERY anti-Christian until these issues are addressed!
For the record, I was a Christian. I now consider myself Agnostic.
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I know what you mean about ‘Christians trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of the community’ – but isn’t that kind of democracy? As in, there are thousands and thousands of community and lobby groups trying to get their agenda to the forefront. Most of these are not religious and I think it would be weird to say people who beleive live export, for example, should be stopped, have a right to try and sway the government but a religious group cannot take any stance to try and have their beliefs incorporated.
I get that the Australian Christian Lobby in particular push a rather socially-exclusive agenda, but then, so do many non-religious anti-immigration groups and so on.
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What a great story. I am met with this at work on a daily basis. One particular lady with a “know-it-all-ism” who feels it is her right to judge others based on their faith ( she even goes as broad as their upbringing and hair style, but lets not go off topic). Whilst I know that there are many people in many faiths that are extreme and make people uncomfortable, most Christians keep their faith to themselves because they know that if a person wants to know about it, they will ask. I am a christian, I don’t need people to judge me on my faith or a minority of people who are making idiots of themselves and making a bad name for Christianity , nor do I preach as I am culturally sensitive to other people and their equally important faith.
Unfortunately there are always going to be these ignorant people in the world who make comments like that. I am sure that given an inch this woman would have made inappropriate comments about all manner of people.
There is a distinct difference between bullying and having a joke, I will have a joke about some of the crazy things with in the faith, I think that kitsch Jesus paraphernalia is hilarious, and I don’t take myself too seriously. But when you start bullying people who are really not doing anything wrong, with you own ignorance that is when I get offended. Think before you speak, and don’t tar everyone with the same brush.
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In breaking this down, the issue is appears to be stereotyping. Those with the loudest voice are often the most passionate and therefore at the extreme end of a belief. This is not indicative of everyone. I grew up in a christian household, but do not practise now. My parents are still heavily involved in the church, but are the most non-religious people I know. They don’t feel the need to eat fish on Good Friday and don’t hesitate to miss a service. Their beliefs are not centred around legalism, but their view of ‘morality’. In their case, this involves integrity, generosity and kindness.
There is no doubt that not all people in the church have this same ideal. But should we judge all muslims on September 11? Should we presume all jews are greedy? (Nb. these are not my thoughts – just common stereotypes.)
I think sometimes people criticise Christians as it makes them feel uncomfortable. Whether it be referring to them as “happy clappy”… have you ever seem peoples jubilation at a football game? Or “bible bashers”… don’t you tend to talk about what you are passionate about?
We need to embrace difference, without judgement.
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Religion talked about in our household is a daily occurrence! My mum and her whole family is Catholic and my dad is an atheist- it has lead to many arguments in the house hahaha. My mum tried to bring us up Catholic, but of course it didn’t work as my dad always intervened.
I know exactly what you mean, people negatively talking about Christians, my dad sometimes calls them ‘jesus lovers’ or ‘jesus freaks’. Some of my friends also mock them, saying stuff like “omg this christian group at uni, they actually believe in creation and adam and eve!!” talking about them as if they’re uneducated and dumb.
Maybe it’s because its the most popular religion in Aus that it’s ok to criticise them.
I for one, am not a fan of the Catholic church as I had an unpleasant experience with a priest in confession when I was 16. He asked me if i’d been sexually aroused before, and then wanted to know the details and how it felt. I’m sorry, that is really not appropriate!!! This was in the Vatican in Rome btw
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I am an atheist and I believe in the separation of church and state and I also believe in freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion.
I’m am quite happy for people to believe what they want to believe and practice their faith as they see fit as long as they DO NO HARM. Once religious belief starts to do harm that is where my respect for it stops.
If a religious person said to me “I am not losing my virginity until I am married because that is what I have learned in the bible” my reply would be “Good for you”. That is a person practicing their faith in a matter that concerns only themselves and their own personal life. That is nobody’s business but their own. However, if a person says to me “I don’t support gay marriage. Homosexuality is an abomination because the bible tells me so” then this is where my respect ends. It ends because that is a projection of personal religious belief onto other people and impacts upon individual legal rights. That should not happen in a secular society. My respect also ends because it does measurable harm in the community.
I also believe that if a person wants to discuss their religion with me then it is open season. I will discuss it but I don’t see why I should have to politely nod and smile while somebody asserts with no evidence that the earth was made in 7 days all of 6000 years ago by an omnipotent being. I will be civil but why I should have to treat that absurdity with delicacy is beyond me. If you don’t want a critical discussion surrounding religion then I’m probably not the right person to speak to. We should probably talk about football or the latest episode of Breaking Bad or something.
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Well articulated, you pretty much just summed up my own beliefs and the way I comport myself around those who are religious.
And I’m so with you on ‘Breaking Bad’, too.
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Neeks I was going to comment but you have wrapped up everything so neatly here I feel I should just second your comment. I find religion a lot like people’s sex lives, you can do what you want, just don’t hurt anyone and please keep it to yourself
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What a fantastic comment Neeks.
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Neeks, I am not sure how long you have been commenting here but I’ve only noticed your name recently and every time you write something, it’s so clever and impressive. I agree with every word and please comment more often.
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Neeks, you have said everything I wanted to say but in a much more eloquent way!
On another note, I can understand the woman who felt alienated and don’t think she was discriminating. If she said that she found the area too suburban or too middle class I don’t think people would have objected. I would feel alienated if I lived an area with lots of religious people, in the same way I felt isolated when I lived in the Netherlands for three years. The people were lovely, I just felt different and wanted to be around people who were like me. I think that is probably how that lady feels.
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LOVING your comments, Neeks! (I also loved your comments no the Michelle Obama post.)
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LOVE THIS COMMENT! Onya Neeks!
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Such a great post, and it is so true. I don’t think there should be a double standard in our society when it comes to Christianity, just because you believe in something doesn’t mean you adhere to a stereotype, it is the same with every religion- yet people still do it. I think we need to reconsider our beliefs, I know I certainly do, and this post has made me realise how narrow minded I can be when it comes to stuff like this
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I don’t bag Christianity to Christians. I don’t think it alters anyone’s opinions (on either side) and think it is impolite. I also find the debate very frustrating and uncomfortable to listen to.
While I do discuss religion with some family and friends, it’s definitely not the religious ones that I have these discussions with.
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I disagree completely – I believe that religion should be spoken about with contempt – openly.
The writers comparisons with being Asian, Middle Eastern or Homosexual is ridiculous – they are not a choice.
Religion is a belief, a choice. If I lived in a community that believed in unicorns, fairies and goblins I should be able to call it out if I don’t agree. How is religion any different?
Religion has, for centuries been untouchable, above the law, above contempt, above investigation. For centuries different civilizations have bullied their citizens into believe in something for which there is no proof. Let me say it again, no proof.
For the first time in centuries, it’s ok to question religion, to speak out against it, to openly declare how you feel about it & the religious are freaking out – they can’t take the slightest criticism.
If religious faith is truly as strong as the religious would have us believe then surely it’s strong enough to withstand criticism & questioning.
We’re evolving and learning to think critically, to question what we believe, to celebrate reason and science, we’re learning to accept that this life is the only life we have. And when you accept that your life is finite, you learn to appreciate it so much more and to live it with the reverence it deserves. Amen.
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Agree x1000.
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Especially the last para.
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Spot on.
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You make some really great points CJ.
I love it when someone says something that really makes me think.
One thing I dont agree with, is speaking about someones beliefs with contempt.
I think a lot of problems in the world arise because people don’t respect each others right to hold their own views and beliefs on religion.
I dont think it is ok to treat someones religious choice with contempt just because it might not align with mine or if I don’t believe in any form of religion.
A whole lot of angst and wars would have been avoided if people just accepted each others differences instead of trying to convert or mold them into what they think they should be.
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Hi Valerie,
Thanks – and I totally understand your position.
But for change to truly take place (and I believe that it should) there must be vocal detractors.
There have to be people willing to get the ball rolling on change. The Atheist movement is gaining momentum and I believe that we will see this change occuring in our lifetime.
All the best to you – you seem like a lovely tolerant person
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Why is it OK to speak about it with contempt? What’s wrong with discussing something respectfully? Doing it respectfully does not mean keeping your opinions to yourself.
I’ve got one particular friend that I have had a number of arguments about religion with over the years (mostly after he’s had a few drinks) and we completely disagree with each other, but we both know how to keep it respectful and not try to force our opinions on others.
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There’s an ocean of difference between being critical and questioning something, and treating it with contempt. By your argument anything you don’t like about a person or group that is a choice (for example their fatness, their hair dye, their car, their house, their school, their taste in music etc) it is OK for you to view as contemptible.
You sound as intolerant as any religious extremist I have encountered.
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WTE & Jay – here is how I feel.
With religion we’re talking about something that is intangible – its not physcial appearance or lifestyle choice or something we’re born with – I can see all of those things I know they exist – I respect that.
Religion is believing something that has no scientific proof (none, not a shred) – it’s not hair, or weight, or a car, or a house – you can’t even make that comparison.
Religion is something that people believe with no evidence. Therefore I believe that it deserves contempt.
Show me some evidence and then I will discuss it reasonably and rationally – give me proof and I will in turn give it respect.
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That can go both ways. There is no proof that God DOESN’T exist either. So that is something you are believing with no evidence that your opinion is correct.
For the record I’m very much a maths/science person (I’m an actuary) and a big part of the reason I do believe is because the amount of answered prayer I have had can’t be put down to chance.
I also believe in respectful discussion on any subject regardless of whether I think someone’s opinion is way out or not. I think the fact that your opinion has had so many likes illustrates very clearly the author’s point.
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There’s no evidence that fairies, Santa, unicorns or the Easter bunny exist either and nobody other than children believes in them.
I can’t think of any thing, person or being, that people believe in without some proof. Other than religion and God.
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I find the idea of religion needing proof to be very interesting. Conversely, is there proof that god doesn’t exist? Could it be just as foolish to proclaim there is no higher being?
Just thoughts!
Like, why are we here, and how did we get here? What are people’s thoughts on that?
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There will never be absolute proof that God exists. I do think sometimes you can know things without proof. I’ve never asked anyone to prove to me that love exists, yet I’ve had enough personal experience to know that it exists without it needing to be proven to me. Similarly with God, I and many other people have had enough personal experience to believe that he must be real. It doesn’t mean I ram it down people’s throats though, and in turn I expect those that don’t agree with me to be respectful. Not contemptuous.
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The burden of proof isn’t on me, it’s on the person who makes the claim.
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If one side says there is a God, then according to you they are making a claim that demands proof, but if the other side makes just as absolute a claim that there is no God, is not the burden of proof on them to prove their claim also? Reason says that neither absolute can be proven 100%, therefore the burden of proof argument runs both ways.
It is for exactly this reason that the British Humanist Association used the word ‘probably’ in their bus campaigns a in London. Because making an absolute claim on the matter implies faith, which they are against, and can bring the burden of proof argument, for which there is no absolute proof, which argument they wish to avoid.
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Sure Scott – I understand what you’re saying but I tend to fall into the Christopher Hitchens camp
“that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence”
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There is no proof that unicorns don’t exist, therefore they exist.
The is no proof fairies don’t exist, therefore they exist.
There is no proof ghosts don’t exist, therefore they exist.
There is no proof psychics are wrong, therefore they are right.
There is no proof my Buddhist mother-in-law hasn’t come back to life in a different body, so therefore she has.
The list goes on.
The assertion that something hasn’t been proven not to exist so therefore it does, is ridiculous.
You have not been proven not to be a murderer, so therefore you are?
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You can’t see love. It’s not tangiable. Does it therefore not exist?
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Calamity Jane, did you see this comment further up the page from Caitlyn?
“Last year, I was in year 12 in a large, multicultural school. I was bullied a lot because I am Christian. I was told that people like me were rapists, and while waiting for the bus I was told to step in front of it and kill myself. All this because of what I believe in. I have never spoken about my beliefs unless a close friend asks what Christianity is like, and never rubbed in in anybody else’s face. I wish everyone would realise that we are people too. No one would dare criticise someone because of their sexuality, or anything else, but it seems that wherever I am it is ok to bully people like me because of something I believe in. This story really resonated with me because it’s like this ALL THE TIME, except for at church.
This is contempt being expressed. In my opinion it is not OK to treat other people contemptuously because of their beliefs, no matter how fatuous you think they are. I for instance think a lot of complementary medicine has little evidence or no proof, and in some cases like homeopathy is utterly implausible, but I am think it’s important that I am respectful of other people’s differing beliefs.
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Hi Jay – I tried to respond to you last night from home but my comment didn’t appear – maybe it got spammed – maybe I’ve said enough at the dinner party?
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Why do people need to justify their own beliefs, though, and provide you with evidence? If they’re pushing that religion onto others, that’s a different matter entirely. Of course the burden of proof lies with them in that instance. But if they’re not, it’s arrogant to demand a justification of their personal faith.
I am not a religious person. I am a homosexual and I loathe the homophobia and misogyny which underpins most of the major religions. I would not take kindly to being preached to. But nor is it my right to demand an explanation and show open disrespect and contempt to those who only practice but don’t preach. And yes, they do exist.
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I agree with Calamity Jane’s ‘tough love’ approach. Here’s my take on it:
I will always TREAT a religious person with respect. I would never do them any harm, nor wish any harm upon them. But the truth is that I do NOT genuinely respect their beliefs the way I might respect someone else’s difference of opinion. A belief in a higher power and, in most cases, all the nonsense that comes along with it is just totally and utterly ridiculous. It’s about time atheists stopped being so PC about it. Most atheists (including myself) keep their beliefs to themselves most of the time.
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Calamity Jane – I am not a religious person, however, I don’t think it’s true that there is absolutley “no proof” and that you can compare it to a belief in fairies, goblins etc.
Many people – myself included – have experienced a dimension to themselves or to life that transcends the “normal” parameters. I’m not sure what this is or how it can be explained, other than a “spiritiual dimension”. I imagine that in days gone by and even today, that this spirituality which is real to so many people manifested itself into organised religion. I believe that for some people this spiritual dimension to their life is so real that to them it does constitute proof of a higher being or power.
As for the proof regarding christianity – while I personally believe that a lot of the bible is not the “literal” truth, there is no denying that Jesus existed and the last days of his life are, by any ancient standards (I am an ancient historian), very well documented. Nor is there any denying that his death did have a profound effect on his followers and the Roman Empire. I am actually of the belief that while Jesus may not have “literally” risen from the dead, the spiritual experience of his disciples and the transforming effect this had on their lives – which, once again, is extremely well documented (and not just in the gospels) is perhaps further proof of the spiritual dimension to our lives.
So overall, while I personally don’t believe Jesus was the son of god etc, I am not surprised that so many people do. To continually argue that there is simply no “proof” for christianity and that it is the same as fairies etc is to ignore important historical facts. More importantly it ignores and belittles the spiritual dimension to our lives that so many people have experienced.
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I don’t follow religion (in fact I have a major problem with religious dogma) but I have a personal spirituality. I was not indoctrinated or introduced by a guru (I loathe guruism and consider most new age stuff to be absolute rubbish). I very, very seldom talk about it because it is based on personal experience, and as a generally logical and skeptical person I know how meaningless anecdata is, and it is deeply upsetting and frustrating to have someone sneer when you’re describing something that actually happened to you. So I don’t. But I felt it necessary to bring it up here to illustrate that a) some of us have had experiences which catalysed our spirituality, rather than it always being the result of brainwashing or naivety; b) personal spirituality is not always the same as organised religion; c) you won’t always know if someone believes in something or doesn’t because not all of us talk about it and d) do you have proof of everything you’ve experienced? If not, how do you know it’s real? Prove it! See what I mean?
I absolutely understand your frustration with organised religion. I share that. But it’s more than a little insulting to assume everyone who isn’t 100% atheist is an idiot and is about to pop out 20 kids, Duggar-style, or believes everything (or anything) from a religious text. It’s also rude and unfair to assume everyone who does follow organised religion is intolerant. One of the most progressive, pro-gay, pro-asylum-seeker people I know is a devout Christian. And in the years we’ve been friends I have never heard this person preach to anyone, ever. I can’t say the same for most of my atheist friends, to be frank.
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I think a big part of the problem is that the church hasn’t earned much respect in recent years. Specifically the Catholic church (and most people instantly associate Christianity with that church) and it’s cover ups of abuse and treatment of unmarried mothers. The issue is not so much these things occurred, but that the church is fairly unapologetic about it.
Another issue is people haven’t kept up with the church. The Uniting Church I used to attend was running services and workshops supporting gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex Christians since the 1980s. The Uniting Church as a whole has supported gays for at least 10 years, possibly more like 15.
It doesn’t bother me if someone dismisses or mocks me for being Christian (although nowadays I identify as agnostic), it’s a good ‘arsehole detector’. Evangelical atheists are as irritating as evangelical Christians!
I think people say much worse things about other groups, it’s just they say them quieter.
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I think it’s fine to question/disagree and at times criticise the actions of organised religion. I’m no longer religious (raised as a Christian, went to a Christian school etc) but I certainly don’t dislike people because they are Christian or have a problem associating with them. I have some very interesting discussions with one of my Christian friends, we both respect each others positions and it’s great to talk stuff through and see both sides of the argument.
What I do have a problem with is organised religion dictating government policy, hypocrites and discriminatory messages. If a church or representatives and members of that church do these things then I don’t like it and I reserve the right to speak out against it. I really don’t see Christians as an oppressed minority and if they wish to speak out against actions they do not like (homosexuality, same-sex marriage, living in sin etc) then be prepared to have other people’s opinions given back to you. And unfortunately even if individual Christians are great people, very generous, open minded etc. the actions of the organisation as a whole colour that in people’s minds.
As an aside, did you know that religious discrimination is not even covered in most discrimination legislation in Australia? Why? Because the Christian churches campaign against it – they want the right to discriminate based on religion (so they can use it in their favour).
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