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sarah 380x380 Im Catholic and Im ashamed

Sarah

 

 

 

 

By SARAH GRANT

When I was a little girl, my Mum used to tuck my sister and I into bed with a kiss good night, calling out “sweet dreams, God bless,” as she switched off the light.

Like her and her parents before her, we were raised as Catholics. We attended a Catholic primary school, where, from the age of eight, we were required to liturgical dance down the aisles of the local church clad in gold robes, singing hymns praising the wonder and good of God as we went.

As a non-practicing Catholic adult, I have often reflected on the religious emphasis of my early schooling, but despite the subtle sense of indoctrination, I have always felt fairly positive about the faith I was raised with. As a child and as an adult, Catholicism has represented a sense of family and security, a belief that served to deliver a sense of morality and a strong code of values.

That is, until I watched the incredibly powerful and confronting ‘Unholy Silenc’e report that aired on the ABC’s Four Corners program on Monday night. Sitting on my couch after the program ended, tears streaming down my face, I felt ashamed to be aligned with a church that would turn its back on something as predatory and life destroying as sexual abuse inflicted by a priest.

Abuse of any nature is a terrible act, steeped in an evil exploitation of power. But when the type of abuse is sexual, and it is inflicted on a child by a trusted family source, the outcome is truly devastating—as exampled in this emotionally challenging and provocative piece of investigative journalism.

It revealed senior leaders in the Catholic Church had failed to pass on to police the details of widespread child sexual abuse that a New South Wales priest clearly admitted to. The abhorrent actions of this priest resulted in the suicide of several of his victims, and the destruction of the lives of their families and many others.

Young boys who had their entire sense of self worth shattered. Young boys who grew into troubled teenagers and ruined men, who chose death as the only solution to silence the shrieking inner demons that had run rampant through their tormented minds since childhood.

“It would have been no different if he’d just taken a gun and shot him … it just took longer,” said Peter Jurd, referencing his abused brother Damian, who committed suicide at the age of 28. “He never got over the feeling of not being good enough.”

Cardinal George Pell has defended the way the Catholic Church has handled such cases and has cited the Towards Healing response set up to help victims. But it’s going to take more than a response group to save Clare Ann Jurd, Damian’s 19-year-old daughter.

Now battling depression, Clare Ann and her brother have lived with their grandparents since their father’s tragic suicide.‘I go to sleep at night and think what he would be like if this didn’t happen to him,” she told Four Corners. “What I would be like if this didn’t happen to him.”

Watching this beautiful young woman describe the sadness and pain she endures because of the abuse her father shouldn’t have suffered—let alone at the hands of a priest—reduced me to floods of tears. The truly devastating outcome of the crimes committed by these heinous child sex offenders was suddenly so transparent: like a falling pack of dominoes, the impact becomes generational.

It is difficult to admit that my feelings towards the Catholic Church have been somewhat naive, based in cosy childhood sentiments that aren’t a reflection of its present values. I have always regarded my religion to be upheld by the values of compassion and morality. Yet its governing body is one that has exposed itself to be ignorant and weak, still terrified to bring the perpetrators to justice because it will expose the ugliness and shame of their denial.

Why would any Australian want to support such an organisation?  I know I don’t.

I commend Four Corners for bringing this horrific situation to light, and applaud the victims and their families who summoned all their courage to speak up about their immensely painful plight.

Sarah Grant is the features editor at WHO magazine. In her spare time she likes to delve into topics that aren’t quite as glossy as the world of celebrity.

How would you desribe your relationship with religion? If you follow a particular faith, are there parts of it you struggle with or question?

Comments

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228 Comments so far

  1. Bhanv

    I have re-written this paragraph a number of times. I just cannot comunicate the level of hatred I feel to these people that have destroyed so many innocent lives. The level of anger at those that covered it up and continue to defend their actions. Their lack of compassion to protect flawed and broken concepts. The overwhelming feeling sadness and sorrow of the innocents and their loved one that have continued to suffer. I believe the majority of catholics ( or any organised religion) are good people. Good people than need to stand up and remove those that done and supported the cover-up. Only then can people heal and move on with their lives. To hear some of the statements from Pell and other supposed leaders distresses me.

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  2. WTF

    But this is the mob that Katie wants Suri to be indoctrinated into and Ms Freedman thinks it’s fine.

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  3. Kylie

    I agree with you Sarah. I have tried to reconnect with my childhood faith for more than 15 years and have always been left feeling so disenchanted and ashamed particularly in the leaders of Catholic Church and the constant protection they provide these dirty old men. In saying that I have met some wonderful priests in my time who have helped me through many difficult challenges. They have always told me that I will find my own way back to God. Men are simply not built for celebicy. Its a ridiculous notion. My husband is Greek Orthodox and almost all the Orthodox priests are married, mostly with children. I believe this allows them to be have a much greater insight to counsel people in matters of life, marriage and religion. The Four Corners Story is my last straw. I’m out. I have my own personal faith which guides me each and every day. Never give up on your own faith no matter what that is – it surely doesn’t live in the doctrine of Catholicism. Shame Shame Shame.

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  4. Kevin Lee

    I was also brought up a proud Catholic Sarah, I still say “Good night, God bless”. I still love my Catholic religion. But what I have lost is respect for the hierarchy. I am ashamed of my pope and bishops who have allowed this state of affairs to persist for so long. I am ashamed to be a priest because of the all too frequent occurence of reading about yet another scandal concerning a pedophile cleric.
    There is a very simple solution Sarah, sack the lot of them!
    The Catholic hierarchy that were responsible for dealing with these pedophile priests and had responsibility for concealing their crimes need to be arrested and the church people (laity) should be allowed to elect their own governance. We should not be forced to accept whoever the cronies of the pedophile protectors appoint – another like-minded person to continue the bad job. Surely most normal people must see that an institution controlled by elderly celibate men is heading for stagnation.
    The abuses have been happening forever so the dirth of good men willing to be celibate for the kingdom is incredibly small. The gap is made up by anyone who wants to say they are celibate and there is no ongoing scrutiny to check if they are. Priests are never held accountable for whether they are doing a bad or good job of spreading the Gospel. No measurements of success, no assessment of performance, just mediocrity perpetuated. Despite what the officials tell you, the number of sexual deviates in the priesthood would be large.For those of you who quote percentages, how would you know? They don’t report them in the government census but i lived with my fair share of them in my own diocese. And there have been quite a few of our Parramatta Diocese’s priests jailed.
    Does that reflect a healthy sexual maturity among priests? I fail to see the relevance of maintaining the facade of a celibate clergy or insisting that ministers have no sexual relations. All that does is force the imposters under-ground. Priests who have partners posing as secretaries or housekeepers, priests with gay lovers also becoming priests, is quite common place.
    From my point of view, the expectation that a man not be married opens the way for people with a perversion to hide it in the priesthood and practice it unabated among the unwitting victims who attend the Catholic schools or come to a priest for counselling.
    If I see a parent whose kid in the car is not wearing a seat-belt, I yell out and tell them, “Put your kid in its seat-belt!” Even though its not my kid, I think they should be protected.
    It is good and proper now that people outside the Church also raise their arms in righteous indignation and say, “Even if you Catholic people don’t want to protect your kids, they deserve to be protected! Put an end to your head in the sand ignorance! Priests are more likely to be acting inappropriately whilst ever you maintain a blanket prohibition on sex for your ministers.”

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    • Nat

      Kevin, you have said everything I wanted to say and more. God Bless you x

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    • Geve

      How does your brother feel about this view Kevin? Whilst I am totally against peadophiles anywhere NOT just in the catholic church and the ones who do cover it up are just as bad as the offender in my eyes. I also feel your brother and many other priests who do the right thing are unfairly judged in your blanket statement. Trust me married grandparents can be peadophile’s too…. I am not against priests marrying and having children, go for it if that’s what they want but I don’t think it will solve all the problems

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  5. anon1

    My husband attended a Marist Bros school in the 60`s / 70`s. He always has said that as kids they were well aware which Brothers to avoid at all costs, never let themselves be alone with that particular Brother. The kids knew what was happening to their friends but they had no voice! Parents of that era were staunch believers in the Catholic faith, this thing, in their mind, just didnt happen.
    How scarey that kids didnt feel safe at school?

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  6. AJS

    The documentary ‘Deliver Us From Evil’ talks about the practice of cover-up in the Catholic Church when it comes to sexual abuse. An eye-opening documentary.

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  7. Melissa

    Don’t let the actions of a few certain individuals taint your judgment of an entire community.

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    • Rebecca

      The sad thing is that it’s not a few individuals. It’s a widespread cover up by the leaders in the church. If it was just a few individuals and the church had acted appropriately to protect its parishioners that would be a different matter.

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  8. Guest

    We live in a smallish country town, so our choice of high schools is quite limited. Because of this, we are considering sending our daughter to Catholic high school as the results are considerably better than our local high school. My husband is a lapsed Catholic and I’m an Atheist, so it’s a bit if a tough one for us!
    After watching Four Corners on Monday, I just don’t think I can do it. It’s not that I’m worried about my daughter being abused so much (the school has an excellent reputation and the teachers are teachers, not priests), it’s more the idea of supporting a church that considers itself ‘above the law’ and can let people get away with this horrible abuse that concerns me.
    We obviously want to what’s best for our daughter but working out what that is is the tricky bit!

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    • sipper

      Agree, parents that send their children to Catholic schools are supporting a corrupt organisation that produces and harbors child rapists. How can they justify this???

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      • Guest

        Or maybe, parents that send their children to Catholic schools are religious people who want their children to be enriched and educated in a relgious school of their denomination. Surely you don’t believe that the Catholic religion or educators support child rapists?

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        • Emma

          There has been enough evidence that deliberate silence by educators and community members has resulted in unchecked abuse. So yes, tacit support.

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    • Alessia

      I have graduated at a Catholic school in spite of being totally against the Church. I couldn’t let something I despise so much lower my possibilities for the future by affecting the choice over the best school available at the time. My money went to the school, which is also supported economically by the Church. It’s like the Church pays their penitence for the crimes by supporting me in my career more than me supporting the organisation, imho.

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  9. MikeyMike

    These ‘men’ abused children, an act that, under usual circumstances, would be punishable by law….it was covered up by the church.

    My friends local Catholic priest recently married in secret (it was in the news) ….. he got the boot.

    What a ridiculous and evil organisation…..

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  10. Living Day to Day

    I can speak first hand. My husband was abused as a 10 year old and he’s now 46. In the last 12 months, he helped put the Catholic Brother behind bars. He thought that would alleviate his pain. It hasn’t. Watching someone you love self destruct in front of your eyes and not being able to help is so painful and hard, especially with 3 kids watching, not sure what to do. We have a fabulous GP who has prescribed medication and the suicidal tendencies have abated. But the are other fallouts from this. Marriage. Sex. Relationships. Work (he can’t function at work). Money. Friendships and so on. He’s involved in a legal class action but in his own words “If they gave me a million dollars, it still wouldn’t take away the pain”. His parents can’t accept his truth – they still believe that the Brothers at the school wouldn’t do such a thing. Some friends also fear that because he’s been abused, he could either a) be an abuser himself or b) be a paedophile! The layers and layers of stuff that comes with something like this is immense.
    I sobbed when I watched the 4 Corners show because I know his brother went to a different school – Rupertswood, another institution accused of raping boys. So with 4 kids in his family, at least 50% have been abused by Church members. The others hopefully haven’t been assaulted. Or perhaps they aren’t ready, or can’t go there yet!

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    • Kristine

      My heart goes out to you and your family. What a horrendous set of circumstance you are dealing with. I sincerely hope your husband comes to a point where he can realise the abuse doesn’t need to define him and that the very best thing he can do is live a great life despite it. I am sending you a lot of love and I hope you can continue to draw on your reserve of strength to see him through.

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  11. my2cents

    The issue is that the church knowingly moved offending priests to different parishes instead of charging them with a crime and kicking them out of the church. The church knowingly caused the abuse of more children in an effort to save face. An organisation that had such control over people chose to abuse that control instead of meet their obligation to protect and care for its followers.

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  12. Lola

    Who needs God when we have Google? It gives me all the answers I need.

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  13. Anonymous

    How many other priest do you know that are fabulous men? Who have given their lives for the community and society in general, have been oblivious to sexual predatory behaviour because it did not happen in their environment, who have been role models for all, not just Catholics?
    Giving up something that is ingrained in you just because there are a minority who do unspeakable acts is an immature outlook on life.
    I know two men who are senior figures in the local Scout movement. Should I condemn them and the movement because other Scout leaders have been caught touching kids? I don’t think I could ever do that.
    Bring the faith you were taught as a child to the fore.

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    • Amandarose

      I agree – My husband has and uncle and aunt who are both a priest and a nun. Fabulous people who give to the community. The priest is also a doctor who spent his life running a hospital in Papua new guinea. Saving lives every day.

      No point bring ashamed about other peoples crimes. Condemn them by all means but it is not your shame.

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    • Sarah

      I think the biggest issue here is that the Catholic Church has been protecting these abusers – I know a number of lovely priests from all denominations, but their personalities do not make up for the atrocities committed by the Catholic Church. The fact that the police have trusted the church with their own internal investigation disgusts me – it’s obviously not effective.

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  14. Anonymous

    So stand by what you say!! Stop donating time and money to EVERY organisation that had peodophiles in it and have not handled it properly… Won’t be long before you stop giving altogether…and who suffers then – the homeless and needy

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  15. Bloggs

    How much of that do you think was true?
    I was raised in a Presbyterian home for little kids that has widely been accused of the same thing – except that none of us who went there can actually remember any sexual abuse happening.
    I joined the Navy at 15 in a place widely accused of sexual abuse of the 15 year old sailors – except that none of us can actually remember any happening.

    And, NO! We are not living a lie – it didn’t actually happen. The reports are lies and fabrications designed by the perpetrators to give them an avenue to sue for money (in my opinion) and thus sexual abuse is a tool for greed.

    Sexual abuse by Priests would be most extremely disgusting, but given my experience, or lack thereof, I often wonder how much actual truth is in it……

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    • JustMe

      No, you are wrong. The priest actually admitted to three other priests that he did indeed sexually abuse the boy’s in question and compensation was paid out. Did you actually watch the show? or just trolling because you have nothing better to do?

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    • elle

      Oh my Goodness are you for real!? “The reports are lies and fabrications designed by the perpetrators to give them an avenue to sue for money (in my opinion) and thus sexual abuse is a tool for greed”
      I cannot believe your comment! Just because you or your friends haven’t been sexually abused doesn’t mean others weren’t! Obviously it is a very secretive thing that is kept well hidden. There is widespread sexual abuse by priests and in the defence force. It is absolutely real and not just lies made up by greedy people trying to get money! I am really disgusted by your comment.

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    • Kris2040

      I know a bloke who was abused in one of the kids homes in the 40s and 50s. He suffered terribly for a long time and it has messed him up so so badly. He knows many that it didn’t happen to as well. Just because there are people it didn’t happen to doesn’t mean those that it did happen to don’t exist.

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    • Athiest

      How dare you accuse these victims of making this stuff up. My dad suffered horrific abuse at the hands of priests in the 50′s. He never sued , he never wanted to lay eyes on them again. You obviously don’t want to believe things like this happen, but don’t you dare accuse those it did happen to , of making it up.

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    • Rebecca

      Some of the people committed suicide, there was no compensation for them. The sbs programme interviewed an Irish catholic priest who admitted it and said that he wanted the church to report him as he knew he couldn’t stop. Why would people admit stuff that wasn’t true?? It’s that sort of blind faith attitude that keeps our children vulnerable.

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  16. Lou

    This song by Tim Minchin pretty much sums it up for me:

    http://lyrics.wikia.com/Tim_Minchin:The_Pope_Song

    Beware, though, it has a lot of the eff word in it.

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  17. K.

    Believe me, I am the LAST person who would defend the catholic faith (or any other faith for that matter).
    But I think it’s important to remember that unfortunately, these unforgivable acts (by acts I mean systematic abuse and cover-ups) also took place in other, non catholic institutions.
    Schools and The Salvation Army homes being my examples.

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    • Guest

      I hate to stick up for the Catholic Church but it does seem they bear the brunt of the media attention. Nearly every type of institution from care homes to schools to psych wards to the boy scouts had abuse issues back in the day.

      And similarly the responses of those responsible for providing safe environments tended to be poor.

      I don’t know enough to say that the other institutions made amends but it does seem like the Catholic Church’s ongoing crap handling of abuse is why they continue to bear the brunt of attention when they were far from alone in giving abusers a space to abuse vulnerable people.

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      • twomummies

        I think the worst thing is these things are not ‘back in the day’, the cover up the abuse is all still happening right now in 2012.

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        • Jane

          even if they were (only) ‘back in the day’ the legacy of abuse IS intergenerational and affects behaviour toward self and others… partners and children of the abuse have also lost something (or never had what they should have had). The victims are further marginalised and psychosocial health is often further magnified as victims aren’t considered legit by the church (those from ‘back in the day’ have been robbed of a healthy childhood). As some commenters here are audaciously stating, with such disdain and contempt – and this makes me feel so sad for the victims, and just so angry at the Catholic Church and its flock – that as it didn’t happen to them personally, or to people they know who were educated in these schools, that it can’t have happened thus the victims cease to exist in the eyes of some in the Catholic community. The massive ramifications without that healthy childhood and the sense of self it helps one develops into, achievement and having a purpose in life isn’t a given…

          “the fish rots from the head first” (Turkish proverb)

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  18. Smearaitave

    Pamietaj zawsze zeby sprawdzac http://krigo.pl/bmi-czyli-ile-powienien-wazyc-mezczyzna/ – BMI Mezczyzna poniewaz bedziesz wiedzial
    czy masz nadwage czy tez jestes z chudy, a moze twoja waga jest idealna, dlatego warto sprawdzac BMI.

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  19. Kristine

    I am with Peter Fitzsimons when he is bewildered that anyone still puts their faith behind a religion which believes in a magical man in the sky.

    I was raised a catholic*. I attended private catholic* high schools. I have done the whole holy communion ceremony, confirmation…I attended mass 6 days a week for 6 years. The only thing the catholic* religion taught me was GUILT. At 38, I am still consciously trying to eradicate myself of the catholic* GUILT. If you ask me, the religion was bought about as a means to restrain civilisation and exact power.

    These disgraceful events that just seem to occur over and over and over again are horrendous enough and then they are further compounded by the church’s defying belief responses. Anyone with half a brain in this day and age realises these responses are so ridiculous in the context of an organisation who sells itself as religious and pious let alone what a sophisticated publicity team would advise as an appropriate response to protect ‘the brand’.

    The fact the abuse continues, the fact they keep covering up incidents that should have been reported to the Police – because they consider themselves the law unto all, the fact they are defiant in response and the fact that they are a complete hypocrisy leaves me cold and curious as to how on earth they expect to have any future.

    They say small things are sometimes indicators of bigger things to come…. in that vein, when I was a young girl at mass, I used to be put off by the collections that used to asked of the congregation. Instead of a discrete bag where you could put your hand in without anyone seeing your contribution, there was a plate. I saw how that plate shamed and embarrassed people to put in more than they could probably afford. I never thought it was a charitable gesture. As I got older I thought it was actually very cruel.

    * I have purposely decided not to use a capital letter

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    • elle

      Great comment Kristine.

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    • Anonymous

      Just so you know, ‘catholic’ (without a capital C) means all-embracing, universal. i.e. having catholic tastes.
      Catholic with the capital is the church/religion/faith group.
      So whilst I respect the intention behind choosing to use catholic as opposed to Catholic, it actually means a completely different thing.

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    • Rrhage

      Thanks Kristine for your articulate response. I totally agree with your statement regarding of small things are sometimes indicators of bigger things to come I was also raised with a very strong catholic upbringing. I attended a private catholic girls school for 10 years also going to church every Sunday.

      We learn’t very early on to never question any teachings and the verbal and mental abuse we suffered at the hands of the nuns took a long time to overcome. On a daily basis from Prep we were told how “bad evil being we were” and how we would all go to the “devil”. The priest and nun always seemed very cruel and cold to me as a child. I can honestly say in my experience I never felt one moment of joy being a part of this religion.

      I was lucky to marry a wonderful man who helped me understand that I didn’t need an organised religion and was in my heart was my faith. This was after my mother told me her grandson was going to purgatory forever if I didn’t have him christened. I have two sister and two brothers who have all followed this ‘tradition” without question. A couple of my family have told me they are “cultural catholics” In my opinion just so hypocritical. All you do is change the rules to suit yourself, such a cop out. A little like fundamentalists if you ask me

      I have had a few discussions with my family who all have similar answers to the criminal activity of the catholic church regarding the abuse of trusting little boys and girls, they believe it is only a select few and therefore cannot condemn the religion on a whole. I have asked if they realise the highest member of the catholic church is also responsible for this criminal action by covering it up and moving these pedophiles to new parishes to abuse trusting little boys and girls. My mothers answer was “thank goodness your brothers were never abused”. She still goes to church every Sunday and by doing this she silently gives permission for this to carry on. It is about time the catholic community stand up and demand answers to these horrific abuse cover ups. By being silent or hiding behind that “cultural catholic” cop out you are helping these criminal acts to continue being covered up. Its never too late for the silent majority to stand up and take care of our sexually abused children the church should have looked after.

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      • Kristine

        Rrhage, I love your comment. You captured the tone of what a strict catholic school is like. That’s what I meant about the ‘catholic guilt’ which permeates your thinking and which is something you have to come to recognise and try to change – I was also told I would go to hell if I didn’t confess my sins on an almost daily basis. The nuns were cold, strict to a point that it was very cruel and forget free thinking – it’s the bible way or the highway to hell.
        It’s hard to imagine a religious state of mind that drives you to be so hard on little girls and boys and not warm, comforting and nurturing. Thankfully I wasn’t a border – my friends who did board had the most miserable experience. It’s hard to understand what kind of education they were trying to instill in us.

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    • Benita (MissBenben)

      Kristine, if I could like your comment a thousand times, I would. The “catholic guilt” is the reason I left the church this year. Also because I could no longer justify being faithful and connected to an organisation that does not treat people equally and that covers up such disgraceful, abhorrent behaviour.

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  20. katehunter

    Great post Sarah, and troubling on every level. I tick the Catholic box, go to Mass sometimes and send my kids to Catholic school. That said, I pay little attention to Rome and don’t much care what the Pope tells me to do. I think the cover-up of abuse is abhorrent. It’s ridiculous women can’t be priests and I don’t believe unbaptised babies go to Limbo. But I can’t NOT be Catholic. It’s part of what I am. I often wish I could leave it behind, I’m not sure I believe in it – and there is so much to dislike. But to me, it’s like being Australian…. Even though the stolen generation was a shameful, awful part of our history I wish I could distance myself from (hell, I wasn’t THERE) I can’t – I’m a white Australian and if I can be proud on ANZAC Day I can also be ashamed on Sorry Day. I can support any moves to make amends to victims of abuse by priests. Money, apologies, transparency, anything. Just not denial.

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    • Claire

      Hi katehunter, I’m genuinely interested in your post because as I’ve already said in another post below, I don’t understand why so many people call themselves Catholic when they actually aren’t. How is that you hold different beliefs to the head of your church (and by the sounds of it don’t even consider the head of your church the head of your church) and still call yourself a member of that church?! Why bother to call yourself a Catholic? I mean, original sin is one of the main beliefs in Catholicism yet you don’t believe it. Can’t you just have your own personal belief in God and distance yourself from the organised religion? Thanks in advance.

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      • katehunter

        Hi Claire, my friend Jane Caro (a most articulate atheist) told me I’m a ‘cultural Catholic’. I like my local church, the families at my kids’ school … I like that I know all the words to the prayers and know when to stand up and sit down. I was lucky in that I had a very positive Catholic education.The nuns who taught me were educated women (there were a few nut jobs but not pervs or abusive). I have no doubt that abuse happens and that it is covered up. I feel no connection to Rome or loyalty to church leaders. Our parish priest is just a bloke my husband happened to go to school with. He’s a bit weird but works hard and has a kind heart. No better or worse than any of us. I don’t know if I believe in God. Catholicism is familiar to me – like family. I’d feel the same if I was born Jewish or Buddhist. You take the good with the bad. I don’t expect anyone to understand – I don’t entirely understand myself.

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        • Lottie

          katehunter I understand you. I could have written that myself – except that I get way tongue tied trying to arrange my thoughts about it. So I, sort of, don’t :)

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        • Pip C

          Kate, I totally understand what you mean, and like Lottie, you eloquently explain the link that so many of us have – even sometimes though we wish we didn’t! A parish priest that my parents were having a dispute with once told my Dad he was “nothing but a cultural Catholic”… to me that is nothing to be ashamed of. As children we went to mass every Sunday, went to Catholic schools and it is something that is so intrinsically part of me that I couldn’t get rid of it even if I wanted to. It’s like being part of a crazy family that saddens, infuriates and angers you, but there it is, they are still your family. I hope that the Catholic Church does the right thing by so many people that were hurt immeasurably by those perpertrators, I want to feel proud to be a part of this family, not ashamed and somehow complicit.

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        • Claire

          Do you call yourself a catholic on the census? It sounds to me like you’re actually agnostic.

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      • bedizz

        Claire, the Catholics themselves label people as Catholic even if they are non-practicing. I am an athiest in terms of my beliefs, but because I was baptised Catholic, I am forever Catholic according to the church. Not that I would ever call myself one.

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    • sipper

      Time to grow up Kate. Continued support of the Catholic Church by everyday Catholics is the issue as well as sending your children to Catholic schools. As a person who was brought up a Catholic it is obvious that the only moral response is to take your children out of Catholic schools and stop supporting the church by going to Mass or any finacial support. This helps in the legal defense of child rapists.

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      • katehunter

        Actually, Sipper, the days of Catholic school fees going to support priests, nuns and brothers are long gone. In the old days teachers were all from religious orders and didn’t earn salaries. Doesn’t happen now. Mostly, fees pay for teachers and books but they also support kids from poor families who can’t afford to pay. If anything, the church supports the school – not the other way around. Evidenced by the hundreds of people getting their five year olds baptised when they realise the Catholics offer the cheapest private education. Funny how their outrage suddenly disappears.

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    • Rrhage

      The silent majority has to stand up and be counted. These new “cultural catholic” are a bunch of hypocrites who change the rules to suit themselves. Why not have enough courage to start your own religion instead of changing this one to fit in with your lifestyle .It is a way to hide the ever present guilty and fear we have been made to feel since learning this religion as babies. I was one of them and it is so deeply ingrained in us it is a form of brainwashing. I spent years trying to break away from this brainwashing and realize that god lives in all of us regardless of what institution you follow.I even thought about becoming a cultural catholic but I could not be a part of a religion that highest leaders were protecting pedaphiles and sending lawyers in to court cases to discredit victims. That this religion had such wealth for it highest leaders when so many went hungry . I can only imagine what the catholic god would say about so many catholic “cultural or otherwise”, sitting in silence while these leaders hide pedophiles in that gazillion dollar property in Rome. Please lets put pressure of government, police etc make so much noise as catholics to make the leaders accountable and bring these pedaphile home for criminal prosecution.

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  21. Rebecca

    Seven deadly sins? Surely systematic child abuse and cover up is far greater than sloth,greed, pride,etc

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  22. kim

    A question – do you think as many priests would have become pedophiles if it wasn’t for compulsory celebacy? Did they have perverted tendencies to start with or did they develop due to enforced abstinence? Do psychologists have theories on this?

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    • Rebecca

      I don’t think that a heterosexual man would have sex with children, celibate or not. The sbs doco on the Irish scandal interviewed the pedofiles and he said that he wasn’t the slightest bit interested in women, only kids. I think that pedos are very good at working their way into organisations where children are, where their actions are likely to not be questioned, they can gain positions of trust and there are little consequences for their actions if caught out.

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    • Claire

      There are many things I don’t understand about the Catholic church but denying human beings their sexuality is just so stupid! We are made to feel so ashamed of our bodies from day one and sex is only for the purpose of procreation etc.etc. It’s no wonder these lonely old blokes take advantage of whoever they can. They should just be allowed to marry already.

      Umm, Rebecca, no, you are implying that priests rape children because they are homosexuals. By that logic you are implying that homosexuality is related to paedophilia. That is a very prejudice and dangerous claim and there is no evidence to back it up. These priests rape children because they are sick, not gay.

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      • Rebecca

        No, no, no. Oh please. I was not at all suggesting that they are homosexual at all!! I was not at all suggesting that Claire. I shouldve said the Irish pedofile priest was only interested in children, not women or adult men. I never suggested or implied a link between homosexuality and pedofilia. At all, ever. However to assume that these blokes abuse children because they are lonely is absurd. If that was the case then we wouldn’t have child abuse being conducted b married men as well.

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        • Rebecca

          I don’t think letting them marry would solve the problem, married men commit child abuse as well. As you said they are sick.

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      • trixie melodian

        I didn’t read Rebecca’s comment that way – I think she was pointing out that paedophiles would prey on children whether they were forced into celibacy or not. I think the suggestion was that celibacy didn’t force priests into paedophilia, but that paedophiles are attracted to positions of trust over children.

        Am I right rebecca?

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        • trixie melodian

          Oh, there you go, you beat me to it, rebecca!

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          • Rebecca

            Yep trixie. But I can see how my comment could have been misconstrued. I’m glad for the opportunity to clear it up.

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          • Claire

            Oh ok! I see what you’re saying now. Sorry for overreacting. I just read it that way because my nan does actually think that all homosexuals are paedophiles. Yes you’re right, perhaps getting married wouldn’t change anything because they are sick. But like the original post said, maybe they developed it as a result of being forced into celibacy.

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            • Rebecca

              The main reason that I don’t believe that celibacy causes child abuse is that abuse requires a lot of manipulation, which suggests something far more sinister than loneliness or sexual frustration. Also I know an ex catholic priest who had an affair, fell in love and married a women. He didn’t abuse children.

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    • Anonymous

      I believe pedophiles become priests not the other way around …. Being celibate doesn’t make you a pedophile IMO

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    • bedizz

      I have studied peadophilia and according to research (mostly prison-based research though, so keep in mind it’s a different sample so there may be different factors at play), there are two types of paedophiles and many different theories to explain how they come about.

      There are paedophiles who are only attracted to children, and have no sexual interest in adults (male or female). Some research shows this can come from sexual learning experiences in childhood and other factors.

      And then there are paedophiles who are still aroused by adults, but choose children because of situational reasons, such as availability/access to children and social problems that make them uncomfortable pursuing relationships with adults.

      I would hazard a guess that most priests would fall into category two, and the forced-celebacy creates the “situational” frame for paedophilia. But that’s not saying there wouldn’t necessarily be any category 1 types in the preisthood either.

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  23. Lou

    I took my children out of their Catholic school this year as I could no longer financially or morally support an institution which deliberately covers up rape and abuse of children.

    Yes, some organizations of the Church do good things, and some Catholics are lovely lovely people (my mother is one, as was I until recently), and it is easy to look at those instead of what the Church itself, from the top down, has done to prevent further rape of children.

    By supporting the Catholic Church in any way – though schools, Vinnies, etc – a person is tacitly saying they don’t find the rape, abuse and cover up intolerable, which it surely is. All these organizations are still part of a Church which consistently covers up rape and abuse.

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    • Anonymous

      With that logic . . .
      You should leave Australia because of what we did to the Aborigines.

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      • Guest

        But this is happening RIGHT NOW. The Catholic Church continues to fail miserably, in the here and now, in their response to sexual abuse. People are not just angry at the past, they are angry about what is happening right now, with the poor handling right this day about how victims are being looked after and how still living abuser priests are still shielded. This is a current issue for all Catholics.

        The logic doesn’t follow in your comment as leaving Australia in protest at something that happened long ago would have no affect at all. Leaving a church that is currently mishandling abuse might do something. Her response was perfectly logical, and in tune with many other Catholics who are leaving the church because of the abuse handling scandals.

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        • Guest 2

          It isn’t happening right now. It happened in 1983. There are ongoing effects, yes, but the same goes for the Stolen Generations.

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          • Sarah

            What are you talking about? The coverups are still happening.

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    • sipper

      Good on you Lou, people who support the church by sending their children to catholic schools are supporting the organisation that supports child rapists. This is the plain facts and any response as per cultural Catholics blah,blah is hypocirtical in the extreme.

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  24. trixie melodian

    Disappointingly, most Catholics don’t seem to share your view, as the number of Catholics in Australia has barely shifted since the 2001 Census. More people need to demonstrate their abhorrence for this behaviour, and stop propping up this corrupt regime by funding them, and withdraw ALL their support for the Church, financial and cultural.

    Unfortunately the Catholic Church has done its job too well, and its followers have spent a lifetime being told that they are unable to communicate with God apart from through priests, so many of whom prey on their flock.

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    • Claire

      The thing is though, I don’t think the people who call themselves Catholic in this country actually are. I don’t think the Pope would accept them as Catholics anyway. Most of them would be using contraception for a start because you don’t see that many families around with 12 kids anymore. Many of them would have used IVF, supported gay rights, had sex before marriage etc. All things which are vehemently opposed by the church and are considered integral to being a Catholic. I just don’t understand why people continue to call themselves that when they’re clearly not. They should distance themselves from that name in my opinion.

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      • trixie melodian

        Couldn’t agree more, Claire.

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        • Rebecca

          With increasing education the church is starting to lose power and in many ways it tolerates a lot of behaviour that it would’ve previously excommunicated people for. If it ex communicated all those taking contraception, supporting gay rights etc it would lose a great proportion of its financial base. I’ve been to the Vatican and one thing I noticed was that the catholic church like money…and gold candelabras.

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          • Jules

            Rebecca, i was just going to post about this too! I’ve been to the Vatican and i have to say whilst its all very beautiful and impressive i just couldn’t stop thinking of the OBSCENE amount of money and treasures the Catholic Church have.
            Lets all pray for the poor a bit more – in the meantime you could maybe sell just a few of the Vatican’s sculptures or paintings and feed an entire country!!

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            • Claire

              Doing practical things is not within the realm of the Vatican; they would rather pray to an invisible man in the sky..which is exactly why they don’t report sexual abuse.

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            • Rebecca

              Going to the Vatican was the final nail in the coffin for me. I thought it might make me feel a link with the catholic faith that my parents tried to instill in me. Instead it just made me feel sick and embarrassed.

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  25. Kylie2

    I think we need to be very careful about stereotyping and stigmatizing entire religions because some of their members have committed terrible acts.

    I am a non-practicing Catholic. I am horrified by the abuse, I’m enraged about the cover-ups and the resulting damage to the individuals and the community. I am sad for victims and their families. I condemn certain individuals but I am not ashamed of the whole church.

    I’m in awe of the ways in which members of the Catholic church have provided care for the poor and the downtrodden. I am impressed by the compassion and dedication that is demonstrated by their organisations and charities like Vinnies. I send my daughter to a Catholic school and they do all sorts of wonderful charitable work and really emphasize compassion and mercy.

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    • Rebecca

      Too bad that the catholic church has little regard for the safety of your children and is more than happy to shuffle pedos around within arms reach of them

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    • trixie melodian

      If I stated that the Mugabe regime was barbaric and corrupt, or if I accused Pol Pot’s dictatorship of abhorrent atrocities, I think I could safely do so, considering the disproportionate number of crimes that were committed by members of those regimes, and the actions that were approved, covered up or condoned by those in leadership roles.

      The Catholic leadership has spent decades (at least) covering up the barbaric actions of its leadership. Calling them to account for their behaviour is the VERY least we should be doing.

      And as far as the Catholic Church providing charity to those in need – Mussolini made the trains run on time too. Doesn’t mean that their charity work cancels out the child rape (because really, let’s just call it what it is)

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      • Rebecca

        Absolutely trixie. We need to stop telling ourselves that there is some sort of mathematical equation here. Xgood acts cancels out x bad acts. We have been too careful for too long when discussing child rape and abuse. It wasn’t ‘some members’ it was leadership!

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      • Kylie2

        I absolutely agree that you can condemn Mugabe, Pol Pot and Mussolini and the people who were close to them who acted inhumanely, but do you believe that all Cambodians, Africans or Italians should feel ashamed?

        We can condemn Islamic terrorists without blaming all Muslims or expecting them to feel ashamed….

        The Catholic Church has existed for thousands of years and has millions of followers all over the world. Should they all feel ashamed because of the atrocities of some leaders, in some countries in the past couple of decades?

        The church is about the community, not just the leaders. Many people are passionate about their faith and live their lives in a more compassionate way because of it.

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        • trixie melodian

          Yes Kylie 2, that’s what I was getting at, sorry I wasn’t clearer, we DON’T blame all Zimbabweans for the actions of Mugabe, and nor should we be seen to be accusing all Catholics of these actions. Criticising “The Catholic Church” I think implicitly accuses the leadership of their involvement in these crimes, without necessarily saying “every Catholic believer is a criminal”

          On the other hand, the difference is that people living under a totalitarian regime have little or no choice in whether they pay taxes to prop up this regime. Those who support the Catholic Church financially DO have to take an element of responsibility for the actions that are committed in their name.

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          • Kylie2

            That’s a good point. I still reserve my blame to those directly involved in the wrongdoing as that money is usually given in good faith with the expectation that it will be used for good.

            I don’t excuse the corrupt leaders in any way, they deserve more condemnation than ordinary criminals because of the power they have over their community.

            I just don’t think anyone should feel ashamed of their faith. Imagine if this post had been entitled “I’m Jewish and I’m ashamed.”

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            • trixie melodian

              If significant numbers of Jewish rabbis had been found guilty of systematically raping children and covering it up, then I think there would be no question that many, many Jewish people would be (rightly) ashamed.

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            • Kylie2

              See I think they should feel angry and betrayed and disgusted but unashamed.

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            • Kris2040

              I’d be ashamed if the people that I took moral and religious instruction and guidance from were complicit in child abuse.

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        • Valentina

          I agree with you Kylie2. But I do feel Sarah Grant has a right to feel ashamed and share her thoughts if she wishes.

          There are many lay Catholics that feel strongly about this issue and would like something….anything….done about it. This I believe is being communicated through parishes and onto the Archbishop. I am not a catholic but my husband is and I know the abuse bothers him a great deal.

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          • Kylie2

            It bothers me too and I’m not even a practicing Catholic.
            Sarah is completely entitled to her opinion and her feelings. Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

            I just feel that the good Catholics can condemn the bad leaders without being ashamed to call themselves Catholic.

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        • Lou

          But you wouldn’t join the army of Mugabe, Pol Pot or Mussolini, would you? Or give money to them to further any of their work?

          By remaining a member of the Catholic Church that is what a person is doing.

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          • Kylie2

            It is a moral dilemma. I wouldn’t knowingly give money to a corrupt regime which does much more harm than good.

            I still feel that the Catholic Church does a lot of good. I choose to think that the money I spend on school fees is there to provide my child with a good education and support the work of the Sisters of Mercy. I must admit I had not really considered that it may be used to protect paedophile priests.

            I don’t agree with Australia’s involvement in the war in Iraq but I do believe in public healthcare and a welfare safety net. So should I keep paying tax if it was no longer compulsory?

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      • Have Faith

        Catholics believe in charity. They do not believe in rape. If you honestly believe that Catholic priests raped young children in the name of the Lord, let me tell you you are wrong. They raped young children because they are sick, disgusting, HUMAN BEINGS. No one has ever used religion as an excuse for those crimes. Those crimes were committed by hypocrites appointed by other hypocrites. Why should religious Catholics be ostracised for the crimes of thier failing leaders?

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        • trixie melodian

          You can’t suggest that it was just a few remote anomalies though. This was systematically covered up by leadership at the highest levels. You can’t really get away with invoking the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

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        • Rebecca

          Sure they didn’t rape children in the name of the lord but others used the religious structures to hide those abusers and continue to do so. This is what is so tragic, some are still escaping justice, hiding out in rome. Nobody is suggesting that religious Catholics be ostracized, but we must talk about these issues, why it happened, what structures allowed it to continue and we need to have more regard for the victims than the feelings of an organisation that seems to have allowed this to continued. I don’t think the author was suggesting that all Catholics should feel ashamed, just that she was kylie2.

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          • Kylie2

            I totally agree Rebecca.
            I don’t think I expressed myself very well because I actually agree with the people who are replying to my post!

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            • Valentina

              You have expressed yourself well in my opinion Kylie2.

              I think the actions of these hideous paedophiles has also had very far reaching implications for the church and it’s congregations. Many people I know have very much gone underground with their Catholicism, don’t attend Mass, don’t openly profess to being Roman Catholic to avoid hostility. I feel for them and they need a resolution too!

              More than anything I hope those that suffered such unspeakable crimes obtain true justice.

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  26. Have Faith

    If you have lost faith in God, because of a documentary you watched, then maybe you didn’t believe in him to begin with. The Catholic Church was established for Catholics to congregate together in the House of God and feel closer to him in that way. God did not establish the Church. The Church is run by humans. Humans who sin and exploit and deceive. Do not let anyone’s sins destroy your faith in God. That is what you should have learned during your Catholic upbringing at school and at home.

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    • athiest

      I don’t believe in god. But wasn’t your god supposed to protect the little children, or was the saying , suffer the little children? I know my dad did

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      • Have Faith

        Unfortunately none of us are exempt from the Seven Deadly Sins. It is important to distinguish between a faith/belief/religion and the actions of those self-appointed to represent it.

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  27. KT

    Can anyone explain why the australian legal system has done nothing about this issue? I am struggling to understand why if ‘father F’ admitted to a court in 2004 that he had sexually abused various young men he has not since been charged?

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    • Rebecca

      Because the victim was seen as ‘unreliable’due to his criminal record, which the family believe was due to his abuse. No other victims were prepared to come forward and the catholic church did not hand over the evidence they had on father f. Add into that a high priced lawyer and the failure of our justice system, which also seemed to be in awe of these men. What I don’t understand is why we can’t extradite the other priest, (think it was fox?) currently hiding out in rome, and what our ambassador to Rome is doing about getting him back here to face charges?

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      • sirquack

        Government has tried, but in all reality simply is not powerful enough. Especially overseas.

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        • Rebecca

          Then why don’t we recall our ambassador to Vatican city in protest? Waste of money anyway

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  28. Bec

    Many years ago I learnt I had to separate being catholic (ie my faith) from the church itself. I have a lot more issues than the sexual abuse of children in the church and have seen the impact it has had on people first hand.
    An organization is NOT how I see my faith and I get angry at what has happend. However the catholic church is not the only organization to have suffered from this issue (not that that is in anyway a defense) and they have not dealt with it at all well. A Protestant minister once told me “once a catholic always a catholic’ he said it wasn’t something you could escape and over the years I’ve meet lapsed Catholics and ‘atheist’ Catholics who have said to me that this is so true. So be angry with them by all means but don’t be ashamed.

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  29. SallyB

    I believe in God, I believe that the Bible is his word and I believe that he sent his son Jesus Christ so that our sins could be absolved. In saying that I cannot bring myself to join a church or be baptised. I feel that churches are too interested in power and forget God’s word. This article again reinforces my thoughts. I am forever torn by the fact that I believe in God but cannot join a church. My heart is broken after hearing these stories. How can we fail them?

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    • Phary

      Well, I did try to reply to you SallyB, but my comment seems to have been deleted…
      I agree thoroughly with your disillusionment and feel the same way, except that I have been blessed to find an independant church group without any denominational or organisational ties who try to follow the New Testament order as best we can. It is more of a family dynamic – no power play and no-one on the payroll! Check out http://newtestamentchurch.com

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  30. Sally

    I can’t stand the catholic church, and I was brought up in catholic boarding schools. Both my brother and partner were abused (different Catholic schools-both Marist run). After the way they treated my partner, when his abuser recently went to court as an old man, was truly abhorrent. I have raged against the institution ever since. They destroyed my brother and ripped my family apart. And I can’t even begin to tell you what thy did to my partner. Never was their any sort of apology. Only with a lot of pychologists sessions is he starting to deal with it, and this happened 30 years ago! Their Towards Healing program is a sham, designed to ensure the victim doesn’t go to court as the courts gave my partner 15 times more than the victims that went through the Catholic mediation. There’s no mediation! I think the Vatican is as frightening a place as the Scientology ‘camp’ that is the head of their ‘religion’.

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  31. Paul

    Having been raised a Catholic – my mum always said not to worry about the Church and its wrongdoings (which are tragic) – just think about that buck up there on the cross and what he did for us. Amen :-)

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    • Rebecca

      What, how can you not worry about the church leaders placing known pedofiles in your local parish and covering it up. Is this the advice you would give to your kids if they were abused by a priest you trusted? We should all be worried about an organisation that fails to protect children. Why don’t we just get rid of our justice system altogether as all criminals will get justice ‘up there ‘.

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      • Paul

        Hey Rebecca, I agree with you, it is horrendous what the leadership of the church is doing. The reported events are truly horrific and it does concern me. My experiences though of priests with my kids have only been positive. By the way, my mother has an unashamed disregard for the Catholic Church given her 82 years of life experiences. Her wisdom though is to keep faith in Him.

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    • MsChief

      Paul, sadly it’s thinking like that and ‘turning a blind eye’ that allows things like this to happen. If people worried less about someone who died on a cross 2000 years ago for our past sins, and concentrated more on the sins that we’re being committed now by their own disciples, namely priests, these things wouldn’t happen. I’m sorry on this one i don’t agree with your mum.

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      • Paul

        Hey MsChief, my 82 year old mother has an blatant disregard for the Church and is disgusted with these reported events. Let me tell you, she doesn’t turn a blind eye to anything. She is honest as the day is long. Perhaps if people thought more about the bloke who sacrificed his life 2000 years ago and what that really means, then perhaps these things wouldn’t happen. By the way I am personally sickened by the events that were reported.

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        • MsChief

          Paul i respect both your mum’s and your views and you are right that if people remembered the true meaning of the Catholic religion then indeed the world could be a better place, sadly it is not, with all the differing interpretations by the mainly patriarchal church to suit their needs. And, look society is also partly to blame, Easter is now chocolate eggs, hot cross buns, the Easter bunny & holidays.
          I suppose after watching the Four Corners report and the blatant covering up by the church hierarchy it taints the whole religion. If this happened in a public school, and the priest was a teacher, police would be involved and arrests would have been made, but this is considerable cover ups, blatant protection within the walls of The Vatican of one of the priests in the story and no consideration for the damage left to the people abused & their families.
          I too am sickened as you are by the events reported.

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          • Paul

            Thanks MsChief – I know we are on the same wave length here. I have a good mate whose brother suffered many years ago by the abuse of a so-called Brother. He cries everytime he bring the subject up. Take care :-)

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    • Athiest

      what did he do? nothing , I say , but turn a blind eye. ( my opinion)

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      • Paul

        Hey Athiest – your comments are all too predictable.

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        • Athiest

          hey Paul, abuse by the church, all too predictable.

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          • Paul

            Hey Athiest, another predictable comment ;-)

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  32. Paul

    Having been raised a Catholic – my mum always said not to worry about the Church and its wrongdoings – just think about that buck up there on the cross and what he did. Amen :-)

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    • Athiest

      and nobody did worry. actually nobody did anything at all. absolutely disgraceful.

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  33. Lorren

    I honestly struggle reading these types of articles because they take two broad concepts and try to bring them together, using one to solve the other.

    However, they don’t really have that much in common.

    To look at Catholicism (or any other religion), you can’t look at it’s people, you need to look at its doctrine. If you agree with it, you practice it.

    However, there are people who follow a religion and then fail to live up to its doctrine – ie this whole horrid and sordid mess. And if you follow it, you have every right to make complaints and be outraged, but I can’t see how that changes anything to do with the actual doctrine itself.

    By all means – voice how ashamed you are of the “organisation” side of things, but while an organisation is a horrible representation of the actual doctrine, I can’t really see how you can be ashamed of Catholicism in general – if this whole sordid mess is not part of its actual doctrine.

    I also am not comfortable reading an article titled, “I’m Catholic and I’m ashamed” when in the body it’s written, “as a non-practicing Catholic adult”. Unless you’re a studied theologian, I don’t think you can really comment on the actual religion itself.

    I’m sorry – I’m not expressing my views very clearly here, but these types of articles should be written more about when people in power fail to live up to their so-called standards, not a reflection on an actual religion.

    I do want to say that I am not a Catholic – but have noticed this type of conversation / article / topic raised before and I always have to ask – are you talking about the religion, or people who have acted badly under its name.

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    • Rebecca

      What?? When the leaders of the organisation are the criminals, and people who hide criminals are themselves guilty of a crime, then it absolutely reflects on the religion itself and is related. These leaders are the ones that advise the joe blow everyday catholic on catholic doctrine. These crimes affect the whole community and we should all be concerned when children are abused and when people in power and part of a powerful religious organisation cover it up and allow it to continue. Therefore, we all have a right to comment, not just studies theologians, especially seeing as some of these studied theologians are the ones doing the abuse!!! Also catholicism is very much about the people and the leadership of the church especially the pope, to argue that saying that you’re ashamed of catholicism rather than the catholic church is playing with semantics on a serious issue. And besides most of the article is about the feeling of complete and utter disappointment felt by Catholics in their church and the leadership.. Also I don’t think she actually commented on the actual religion, other than to talk about how she felt the principles enriched her early life, then the author went on to talk about her disappointment in the ‘catholic church’ and ‘the organisation’.

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      • Lorren

        I wholely agree with everything you said.

        Except – if you got rid of all the criminals and had a group of people practicing the actual doctrine those criminals professed to be doing (when they weren’t), would that mean that catholicism could now be seen in a new light.

        I do agree that she talked heavily about how dissapointed she was of the leadership and cover up. But her first paragraph linked memories with the current leadership. She was liking the outworkings of the doctrine with the inactions of the failed leadership. They are not the same thing.

        Yes – be pissed off with the leadership and what they’ve done, but should that change your feeling to the actual doctrine? I don’t think so.

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        • Rebecca

          Many would argue that the leadership structure itself, the absolute power of the pope, the promotion of unquestioning faith is a big part of catholic doctrine and a big part of what has allowed this to continue. I disagree that she linked the doctrine to the inaction, but rather provided us with a context for her feelings. The article would’ve had a slightly different feel if she had said that she was raised an atheist and had no links with the catholic chuch whatsoever. By describing her early memories she provided the context and accurately explained the mixed feelings many Catholics have, the trouble they have coming to terms with this, reconciling their trust in the advice of the church and their actions and the betrayal that is felt. I think it is more than reasonable to question your belief in the doctrine after the behaviour of the leadership.

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    • Thank You

      AMEN!

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    • Gabrielle

      I too was raised a Catholic and continued to practice into my adulthood. I was always taught the church meant the people. So I do have a right to comment on the Catholic religion and it’s doctrine. The actions of the heirachary of the church and it’s doctrine cannot be separated because it is the doctrine that says men are more important than women, that women’s sexuality is a thing to be controlled and that priest deserve greater respect than children.
      When a Church thinks it is more important to change a few words in the liturgy than to reform it’s treatment of abuse survivors then they deserve to be critised and if the people who were members of the church can’t do it, then who can?
      Of course there are good people who still participate in the church but the people in power have become corrupted by thier power .
      I have left the church and every time something like this happens I do a little liturgical dance of celebration of my own.

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  34. josiey

    Ok, I’m an Anglican and I’m training to be a priest. I do not accept everything about the Anglican Church, but that’s ok. I don’t know anyone who does! In my world, we believe in evolution, are gbtli friendly, and I for one definitely had sex before I got married. I know the Anglican Church is a lot different to the Catholic in a lot of ways, but we are similar in a lot of ways too. I really truly believe that the majority of Catholics are appalled at what has happened (and is happening). But maybe they feel that they are better off changing things from the inside and trying to preserve some of the good that the Church does rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    I have a friend who works in an aged care home with some priests who are convicted pedophiles. She is a religious sister. Others are appalled that she will care for these men. But they have done their time (yes, they went to jail) and are now bedbound and no threat to anyone. Her duty as she sees it is tocare for ALL of God’s creation, even those who we would like not to.

    How many of you buy items fom Gap, DKNY, Nike etc? They all use sweatshops and child labour. Do you work for Nestle? They have been found to use child lablour too. L’Oreal company test their lipsticks on animals. I am in NO WAY defending those people who have abused or covered up abuse within the Church, but for thise people who are just trying to serve God through their Church, please have some respect.

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    • Melissa

      Hi Josiey. You had a great point. But you lost me when you likened the average joe blow consumer who might not be aware of where their products come from to the upper hierarchy of the church systematically covering child sexual abuse.

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      • JosieY

        Hi Melissa,
        I didn’t explain myself terribly well. My point is that your average Catholic family is like the one who buys milo – they would be appalled to know that children had been harmed in it’s making but we wouldn’t then blame them for what nestle did. Nor would we blame the sales assistant in coles who sold it to them. We should blame the people in positions of power who allowed it to happen. So we should blame and hold accountable (more importantly) those people of power who have allowedd these appaling things to happen rather than the Catholics and priests who are just trying to do their best.

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        • Rebecca

          Josey, you seem to miss some of the point. Most people are blaming nestle, to use your example. In this situation ‘nestle’ are the top leaders in the catholic church. No one was blaming the average catholic going to church. We’re blaming the people at the top, the most trusted, the most ‘respected’, the most demanding of respect.

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          • JosieY

            I don’t think I ammissing the point. My point was aimedd at those who say that they would never trust a priest with thier child or that everyone should stop going to Church.

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        • Melissa

          Hi again. Thanks for the clarification and I think that is what the majority of people here are saying. For me because the powers that be are still in denial or systematic cover up that taints the whole church for me. I do realise that there are many people in the church that do good works. But the ultimate power at the top of the Catholic church is morally corrupt, out of touch with times and power focussed to a degree. We look at corporations and say if the leadership is corrupt that has a flow on effect into the business. I just believe that the same is true of the Catholic Church.
          And as a side note – I am enjoying this robust conversation.

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    • Athiest

      please don’t tell me to have some respect, because I have none to give. My father suffered horrific abuse at the hands of the church. No one listened. I have no respect and never will.

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      • JosieY

        I am so sorry. This should never have happened, to your family or to anyone. I wish I could change the past but I can’t. I am trying to change the future, although I know that is of no help to you. I am sorry.

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  35. Melissa

    Great post. I too was raised in a Catholic household and attended Catholic schools. I turned my back on organised religion and God at the age of 17.

    I think at a grass roots level the majority of the Catholic Church does good things. However the archaic, patriarchal nature which by the church is run just sits so wrongly with me.

    I’d like to believe that if Jesus and God were actually real that they would be quite happy to welcome everyone into their church as long as they had a good heart and spirit, that they would want women to be priests, that contraception would have nothing to do with anyone but an individual, that Jesus would be throwing condoms out of his Jesus mobile in third world countries to stop the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and to help curb the HIV/AIDS epidemic that orphans and in turn infects so many helpless children, that most importantly they would not harbour criminals within their system so that these criminals could continue to perpetrate heinous crimes, and that if an individual committed these types of crime that they would do what the Catholic church is suppose to do and go to the aid of the victim and support them.

    I can’t say for sure that I will never set foot in a church again, but I can say that this has pushed the chance of that happening into the very distant, distant future.

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    • Melissa

      And my PS is my heart bleeds for the victims and their families. My thoughts have been with them frequently since Monday nights program.

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      • MsChief

        Well said Melissa, that is the Jesus & God that I would envision.

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  36. A former catholic turned atheist

    I was baptized catholic, forced into making a reconciliation, communion & confirmation. Yes I just used the word forced because as a child I didn’t really get a say. And that’s how the church gets most of its members… Unsuspecting youngsters that are too little to realise the awfulness that is the catholic church.

    I know my parents did it because that’s what they did as children etc. But now as an adult I’m so embarrassed & ashamed to ” be a catholic”.

    On a different note, I hate how people are selectively catholic. Eg, don’t eat meat on Good Friday “because the bible says so” but will have sex before marriage or use contraceptives. Then again the catholic church is all about hypocrisy..

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    • MsChief

      Hypocrisy & guilt, that’s what everything they do is based on, and then you can repent and it can all be cleansed away. Life should not work that way.

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      • A former catholic turned atheist

        Too right MsChief.

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      • Claire

        It’s funny coz when I first read the title of this article I assumed she was just talking about the regular shame that catholics are made to feel on a daily basis!

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    • Anonymous

      I don’t know where in the bible it says “don’t eat meat on Good Friday” … actually IT DOESN’T.

      BUT it does say NO ONE shall be called father except me.

      Calling a priest father has always “freaked” me out.

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      • kim

        I went to a secular school that a priest occasionally visited as a guest teacher. My mum always told me to call him Mr Brown rather than Father Brown for that reason. She even showed me the scripture so that I could quote it if the teachers objected. He didn’t like that ;)

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  37. Claire

    Great article! We can be good without god.

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  38. georgiepie

    Our whole extended family is Catholic, but very lapsed – I hated the guilt I felt as a child, because EVERYTHING you do is wrong! It’s like you’re constantly being punished.

    I believe in God though, I do. I do believe there is a higher power up there – whether it’s Allah, Jesus, Whoopi Goldberg… who knows :) I’m a very spiritual person and I do feel a loving presence in my life when I am upset or stressed. I know it sounds ridiculous, but I feel in my heart there is a higher power.

    I hate the establishment of religion, the politics, how it can be argued that it has become ‘the cause of all evil and cruelty’ (as a commenter said below). Grass roots religion however, in my experience, is a beautiful thing. Our local parishes are some of the most caring and generous community establishments around. I have never been inside a mosque or synagogue, but I’m sure at the grass roots level they are exactly the same :)

    Basically, I wouldn’t consider myself a Catholic, Christian or anything, but I do believe in a higher power. During stressful times in my life I have felt a loving presence surround me, and I definitely believe in spirits and fate. Call me crazy, but that’s what I think!

    We shouldn’t call religious people dumb or stupid – religion brings great comfort to millions of people. I had a girl at school say right next to me ‘Anyone who is not an atheist is an idiot’ and I swear I nearly slapped her.Arrogant atheists are just as bad as arrogant religious people! Respect

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  39. Ali

    I think the church and god often need to be separated as the church all depends on who is there. Some parishes are full of conscious good people, others are just hiding under the banner. My kids go to a catholic school and we focus on god, not the church attached.

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  40. JR

    Every religion on the planet is the cause of all evil and cruelity known to man

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    • Anna

      It’s really not, you know.

      Religion isn’t the problem. The philosophy behind it is sound. It’s the men – and yes, it’s always men – in charge of it who are the problem.

      That’s the opinion of this atheist, anyway. :)

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      • trixie melodian

        A philosophy that states that every child is born sinful because of something that an imaginary woman did sometime in the past? A philosophy that tells us that our only path to salvation is through these celibate men who have a significantly elevated likelihood of raping our kids? A philosophy that tells us that anyone who believes a different version of what we believe isn’t entitled to the same VIP room at the after-party as we are? A philosophy that tells us we don’t need to live life to the utmost in THIS lifetime, because we have another chance after we are dead?

        I reckon there are some pretty fundamental problems within this philosophy.

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  41. Lily.

    I’ll accept and defend anyone’s right to have a belief as long as it’s not hurting anyone and as long as they’re willing to accept that I believe in nothing. The only time I struggle with religion is when the fanatics try and convert me. Because I don’t go to their houses and ask them not to believe, so they need to stay off my front lawn.

    Especially on a Saturday morning.

    This about sums it up for me:
    “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” – Stephen Roberts.

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    • Yeah!

      Ooh, I like that quote. As an atheist, I’ll definitely be wheeling that one out at some point.

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  42. Becstar

    People say ‘how can you follow that religion?’. What they don’t know is Catholicism gets ya young. The guilts never quite leaves. The most hardcore athiests are usually lapsed Catholics.
    I gave it up Catholicism when my mother was dying of cancer. I sat there in the hospital and asked to see a priest. I need catholicism at that moment more than ever, I need reassurance she was going to a better place. I was 16 at the time. I remember asking the priest where my mother would go when she had died. He laughed at me. The unbelievable lack of compassion he had me made me never step into a church again and I threw out my rosary beads. The Catholic church fails so many people and never takes any accountability. Just like Catholicism itself really. You can always confess and your sins wiped away. No accountability. No responsibility except reciting a few hail mary’s. It is not a responsible way to live.

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    • Sam

      Oh bec, I can relate. I was nine when my two month old sister died. I asked the minister (not Catholic) if she would have gone heaven if we hadn’t been able to baptise her in time. He squirmed and couldn’t give me a straight answer – just said that Jesus loves the little children.
      That was probably the first time I ever doubted. I am still Christian, but I waver. I wish my faith were stronger.
      The story aired on Four Corners was horrific, but it wasn’t as bad as the one they screened regarding the cover up of abuse of a bunch of children with disabilities who were serially raped, photographed and humiliated by their Catholic school bus driver: http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2011/09/22/3323669.htm
      I wish all healing to all people abused by these so very very sick men.

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      • Mary

        No. No. No. I cannot believe what that minister did. Limbo does not exist (in the Catholic Church, anyways.) Unbaptised babies do go to heaven. You can read about it in the Catechism:

        “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’[23] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.”

        Basically: God wants everyone to join him in Heaven. Even atheists (as Pell pointed out on Q&A in perhaps the one statement he has made in his life that I have agreed with.)

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  43. Bre

    I too believe this to be an awful, awful thing… but please keep in mind, just because one catholic church is like this doesn’t mean the rest of them are.

    The problem is that there have been numerous occasions where certain priests have abused their power for sick sexual abuse, and yes they deserve to be punished. The people sticking up for this behaviour, are just that, a few people.
    There are thousands of Catholic churches in Australia and all over the world, that stick to their moral’s and good teachings. I would ask that maybe you don’t question your “religion” but question the single person who committed these horrible things.
    The catholic church on a whole shouldn’t be punished or frown upon because of this.

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    • Bre

      Lottie, well I guess that is your own issue. The need to judge others is one thing, but to judge something wholley based on some peoples actions is absured. Thats like saying the Pope sinned, ALL the catholic church must be bad because of that…

      If you went down to your local catholic church and asked them what they thought on this issue, I can garantee that they would be appauled with it too.

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      • Rebecca

        It’s not just ‘some’ people. It’s the leaders of the organisation. If it was just a few at the bottom that’s one thing but this is about the people at the top covering up criminal and morally reprehensible behaviour. As long as the catholic church leaders refuse to take this seriously and stop moving around and hiding pedos they show contempt and scant regard for the safety of its ‘flock’.

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      • MsChief

        Bre, appalled and then what, what would they do, would they question the hierarchy? Would they look into any allegations in their own parishes, would they contact George Pell and be appalled publicly, would they denounce how The Vatican is treating these cases. Or would they just sit in their appalled feeling and tell you God, or someone else will do something about it.
        Being appalled is not enough anymore.

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    • MsChief

      If senior leaders in the Catholic church like George Pell & The Vatican, where one of the priests in question is living are the ones doing the covering up and spin doctoring, then that calls into question the Catholic Church as a whole not just a few people.
      I too was brought up catholic would like to think of myself more of an Agnostic, and I may believe in a higher power but I do not believe in churches or their ‘disciples’ and interpretations which always seem to favour themselves and cause guilt & hypocrisy in their congregations.
      Child abuse is child abuse, no buts, why’s or excuses.

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      • Anonymous

        There is evidence that Pope Benedict has been involved in covering up child sexual abuse in the past. If the all-knowing head of the Catholic church thinks child abuse is fine, I don’t know how any good person could ever associate themselves with that organisation. Just disgusting.

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        • MsChief

          I agree anonymous these cover ups are not just isolated incidents here and there.
          Yes, there would be good priests and beautiful parishes out there, but they too are tarnished because they are also silent. The silence is deafening as well as all the excuses. These priests have committed a criminal offense on children who trusted them, whose parents trusted them, solely at times because they were priests and therefore beyond reproach. Misplaced trust I’m sad to say.

          “All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.” — Edmund Burke

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      • Rebecca

        The whole point of the 4corners programme and one on sbs the other week re. An Irish pedo priest, is that the cover up goes straight to the top and it’s not just about one priest or one parish but about the entire organization and it’s reluctance to take this issue seriously.

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        • MsChief

          That’s exactly right Rebecca, if the higher powers were doing something, anything, that showed they were moving forward to help the young people and families affected then there would be some compassion for the ‘church’ but it’s the sweeping under the carpet, protecting their wealth, and not admitting to such atrocious failures.
          The people that were affected are committing suicide, their families can’t move forward from their losses, sure throw a pittance of money at them, a drop in the bucket compared to what The Vatican is worth. It disgusts me!

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        • Underdog

          Completely agree with everything your saying Rebecca. I too watched the 4 corners episode and it was truly heart shattering. It is absolutely incredible that these priests have been given a free ride! Talk about double standards….and to think that Priest F should have a new identity and continue on living freely is shocking! Truly evil! The victims, families and communities will not get closure until justice is served! Acts like this make me ashamed to be a human.

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    • Jane

      I think it is incredibly naive for Bre to think that abuse doesn’t/didn’t go on in the majority of catholic parishes and churches. I don’t doubt that there is probably the odd decent church or school out there with an unblemished record, but abuse in the catholic church is far more widespread than people think.

      I live in a relatively small city (Adelaide). I went to a catholic girls school. My brother went to a catholic boys school. Our next door neighbours sons went to a different catholic boys school and my best friend up the road went to a co-ed catholic school. There was abuse at all 4 parishes attached to those schools!!!!

      As I have got older, the number of other abuse cases that have occurred in catholic churches, catholic schools and catholic parishes that I have heard about from friends or families of the victims is astounding. And that is just in the very small city of Adelaide.

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      • Bre

        Jane- You’re going based on your experience. My husband and I both went to Catholic Schools. We werent catholic, but pentacostal.
        Couldnt give higher praise to the nun’s and priests at our schools. NO ONE was ever abused at those schools or the churches associated with them.

        I dont doubt that there are priest who abuse there authority, for sexual abuse. But I bet that there are a lot of work places, organisations etc that do the same thing. It’s a sick world we live in, but it is ridiculous to condem the whole catholic church and everyone in them because of this. It’s too big of a generalisation.

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        • Jane

          Bre I’m glad you were lucky enough to have had a good experience.

          However, the fact remains that I can – and will – condemn the whole catholic church. Yes, I agree that it would be ridiculous to condemn the whole catholic church and everyone in it based solely one this one priest, Father F, mentioned in the article above, and yes I agree that that would be too big of a generalisation. However, my point was that this is NOT an isolated, one off incident where the catholic church is concerned.

          The reasons I condemn the whole catholic church and catholic faith aren’t based purely on my own personal experiences at catholic schools, or the continued and ongoing abuses within the catholic church, but I just can’t stand for anything that the catholic church preaches or believes in. For example, their stance on abortion, homosexuality, contraception, sex before marriage, ‘living in sin’, fertility treatments, that their nuns and priests have to be celibate, that Mary was a virgin and yet gave birth to a child (yeah, right), that they pay the pedophile priests to ‘move on’ when abuses are committed but don’t give compensation to the actual victims, that the heads of the Catholic Church have, and continue to cover up all of the abuses, for the lies they tell the poor – especially to all those Africans contracting AIDS, telling them that condoms were “impregnated with the HIV virus” and that the “HIV virus could pass through condoms” and that “condoms were spreading the virus” – and my list of reasons for condemning the whole catholic church and catholic faith goes on and on and on. Indeed, the list of ‘sins’ committed by the catholic church is a very long one.

          Like last year, a mother and a doctor were excommunicated from the catholic church for saving the life of a 9 year old rape victim. The mother and doctor approved the child’s abortion – she was 5 months pregnant with large twin babies and, being catholic, was proceeding with a pregnancy from rape – the child had planned to have the babies (at 9 years of age, I doubt that this was even her decision or choice). However, at 5 months pregnant, the babies were so big that the pregnancy was killing the girl (she weighed only 36kg) and because the girls mother and doctor had approved an abortion – a pregnancy due to rape – the mother and doctor were excommunicated from the Catholic church. The Church DID NOT, however, excommunicate the child’s step-father who she was pregnant to, who had been sexually abusing the child for years on end, who had raped her repeatedly over many many years. And why, in New York, did the Catholic Church oppose and continually block the introduction of new legislation that would give child molestation victims more time to file charges against perpetrators? Because, and I quote directly from Cardinal Dolan, “We feel this is terribly unjust, we feel it singles out the church, and it would be devastating for the life of the church.” In other words, regardless of whether the abuse really happened or what the consequences were for victims, what matters is how much additional lawsuits might cost the Church. I could list millions of examples and actual events like these 2, but I’d be here for a very long time and it’s way too much effort I want to give to the ridiculous hypocrisy and stupidity that is, the catholic church and catholic faith. I too, am ashamed I was a catholic.

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  44. beee

    I respect others who have religious beliefs but I personally don’t and doubt I will ever follow a religion. Time and time again I’m shown examples of terrible situations and circumstances that all come down to the underlying issue of someone’s religion. Yes there are good things about religion but I get all I want out of my life without it.

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    • Cathy Crawley

      That is exactly how I feel. Every war ever waged on this earth of ours has been based in religious beliefs. Buddhists in my opinion are the only religious people that practice peace and love for everyone. I’ve said this here before but I wouldn’t trust a Catholic priest to sit with my children for even a minute. Unfortunately, I assume they are all pedophiles.

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      • Anonymous

        What an ignorant statement.

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        • Cathy Crawley

          Which part? The bit where I say religious differences cause men to wage war or the part where I don’t trust men who are not permitted to have sex, ever?

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          • Jules..

            In all fairness don’t think *every* war has been about religion.

            Many have been about wealth and power… religion is often just the excuse…

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      • Phary

        Ummm… Hitler’s National Socialist ideaology was atheistic to the core! You could hardly say Hitler was religious unless you call self-adulation religion! And yet he managed to start one of the biggest wars in history.

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        • Kate

          “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord” – Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler.

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          • Cathy Crawley

            And there’s this: “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.” Adolph Hitler.

            There are many quotes on the internet from Hitler talking about his belief in Christian values on the internet. People just prefer to think he was an atheist as it makes them fell better about their own beliefs.

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        • Di Pearton

          Hitler was a Christian brought up by Catholic parents, his mother very devout. While he lapsed as a Catholic, he remained a Christian and never identified as an atheist.

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          • SJM

            Hitler was a Christian? Ok, we can stop right there. Being brought up in a Christian home no more makes you a Christian than being brought up in McDonalds makes you a hamburger.

            Hitler was evil tyrant.

            To be a Christian requires a choice to submit yourself to the incredibly life-affirming teachings of Jesus. The tragedy is that some people who use the title ‘Christian’ woefully misrepresent Jesus and His church. The rest of us work hard to serve our communities in a way that displays the beauty of faith in a loving God.

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            • KookyChic

              The point being made is that Hitlers actions were not driven by Atheism. He declared himself to be a Christian.

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            • Nic

              Third paragraph sums up beautifully what I have struggled to say myself. Thank you!

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        • KookyChic

          Absolutely not true. Hitler was a Christian.

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          • SJM

            Respectfully, you can call yourself anything, but his every action ran completely opposite to Jesus teachings. He was utterly unbiblical, which invalidates any title he chose to give himself.

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          • Mary

            No, he wasn’t! Hitler basically created his own pseudo-Christian religion, in which Jesus was Aryan, the Jews were evil in killing him and his second coming was Hitler. I think it was called the National Reich Church?

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          • Phary

            Oh man! Define “Christian”!
            Or, more constructively perhaps, have a read of this very interesting article at http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2012/04/18/3480312.htm on the subject of “Hitler’s Faith”. The writer comes to the pretty well researched conclusion that:
            “…was Hitler a Christian? Emphatically not, if we consider Christianity in its traditional or orthodox form: Jesus as the son of God, dying for the redemption of the sins of all humankind. It is a nonsense to state that Hitler (or any of the Nazis) adhered to Christianity of this form.”

            And bear in mind that Hitler was leading a nation of people who all came from a very religious background (predominantly Catholic & Lutheran). He was very successful at creating a new national ideology without overtly challenging people’s long-held beliefs. Brain washing by stealth, you might say!

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          • Bec

            Hitler used Christianity as a method of gaining support from the German people. As most Germans disliked Catholics (almost as much as they dislike Jews which is another discussion altogether) he backed away from his upbringing.

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        • Cathy Crawley

          He persecuted the Jewish people didn’t he, is that not religion based war?

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          • Valentina

            Goodwin’s Law is officially in the house!

            When people go on about this ad infinitum it just kills me inside. Hitler’s persecutions and exterminations were racially motivated. Foremost. Everybody knows that.

            Hitler was nuts and believed in all sorts of things. Hypnotism, astrology and the occult. The swastika is a symbol borrowed from Buddhism and completely misused. Hitler was also a prescription amphetamine user and…..nuts….I can’t stress this enough.

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        • Cathy Crawley

          He was a narcissist but he was also a Christian and he killed millions of people who believed a different set of religious teachings.

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      • Anonymous

        “Every war ever waged on this earth of ours has been based in religious beliefs.”

        Wow. Might want to actually do a little research before making a claim like that. I would hope primary school kids would be able to name at least a few wars caused by other factors.

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      • A.

        World War One (also known as: The Great War, The War to End All Wars): Based on a continent wide arms, land and glory race amplified by complex alliances and empire building aims.

        No religion in that one. Sorry. WW2 also was less religion and more the deranged beliefs of a madman spurred by the unsatisfactory conclusions of WW1. Of course, the Jewish faith (although more the Jewish race… there were plenty of non-practicing Jews who were also persecuted along with other what Hitler called “degenerates”) was targeted in WW2.

        Communism (not socialism…) vs Capitalism was the Cold War and thus the whole of 20th Century (generally… VERY generally speaking) and while the whole concept of a “Christian nation” against the “Godless Commies” was a factor it was more about the space and arms race rather than religion. Depending on how you argue it, you could say if any “religion”, or lack thereof, “started” the Cold War it’s Atheism. I personally disagree (religion was such a minor aspect of the Cold War) but whatever.

        History suggests that you’re quite wrong. Obviously the Crusades were based on Christianity… or more accurately the incorrect perceptions of Christianity which the leaders of the church preached. More recently we have the “War on Terror” and associated conflicts but throughout the 20th Century, religion was noticeably absent from the major wars.

        Also, because I know it’ll be asked, yes I am a Christian but I’m also a History major… so I do study this stuff I’m not just looking for reasons to exonerate my faith. Christians have done a lot of crappy stuff, but we’re not the cause of all evil. I think you’ll find a lot of Christians and Christian organisations have aimed to prevent wars and care for those involved…

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      • Lorren

        I’m sorry, but blaming religion for the acts of men doesn’t sit right with me.

        Men start wars. They may give a lot of reasons why they started them, but often it’s based on power, money, fear etc.

        The recent “war on terroism” is widely disputed for example. A majority of people do not believe that Bush was looking for secretly stored mass weapons, but looking for an excuse to retaliate when the UN said no to their initial reasons to go to war. And he never did find those weapons because the US army already distroyed them all when in the 90s.

        India, one of the largest nations that practice Buddhism had a well established caste system for many years – doesn’t sound like love and peace for everyone to me. Their karma belief extended that if you were born into the lowest caste it was because of how you lived your last life and therefore you could not progress out of it into the next caste. Again – another abuse of power, ensure that the wealthy and strong stay where they are.

        I have no problem with religion. I have a problem with people who try to bend and shape religion for their personal gain and the distruction of others.

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        • beee

          Can I just point out that everyone here is arguing about religion. Again.
          This was my original point. I dont like it because it causes people to argue!!

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        • Jane

          Very early on Hitler curried favour with and relied upon the Catholic Church to fuel the fascist narrative – based on central power and control using enforcement through every channel so as to meet its objectives, the party couldn’t have gotten into power without the channel that the Catholic Church is. Majoritarianism is always dangerous and in this case, each had something that the other needed so as to ensure the survival of both. The Catholic Church turned a very convenient blind eye to everything that went on across Europe… yes, it suited the Catholic Church to dance with the devil, and ignore the atrocities going on in the Holocaust… After all, the Catholic Church has always had a problem with Jews and as the Ashkenazi were a ‘thorn’ in everyone’s side (given their generally successful capacity to thrive during the state of Germany’s economy post-WW1) they were easy targets for the fuel of the Nazi ideologue – but it was the society that maintained it, and the Catholic Church was the carriageway of propellant of the fear-drive judgment, condemnation and persecution of the European Jewry.

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    • Guest

      I actually have less respect for people with religious beliefs. I don’t say that outside of an anonymous forum, as it really isn’t a popular thing to say. You are supposed to be tolerant of others religious beliefs.

      I’m just not. I think religion is from a less enlightened time. I believe in secular rational scientific thought and living life guided by morals and ethics that evolve with societies needs and with critical thinking and input from all, not a bunch of men (always men) who are power hungry and often money hungry.

      When someone tells me they are a devout whatever I regard them with the same feeling as if they told me they believed in some wingnut conspiracy theory. If someone came up to you and said aliens were responsible for 9/11 you would not think you had to be tolerant of that thought.

      But if someone says they are religious and believe all the associated airy fairy stuff with it, well political correctness says you can’t think less of them. Makes no sense to me. Both are illogical and irrational concepts to believe in.

      And if someone says ‘well I don’t believe the airy fairy stuff, just the doctrines on how to live life’ I still question why they cannot develop morals and ethics in a secular fashion away from a hierarchal organisation barely out of the dark ages.

      I’m sure this is unpopular. I just don’t buy into the popular ‘oh I respect your right to believe’ notion.

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  45. Louise

    You shouldn’t be ashamed of your beliefs simply because others who share and teach them have peverted them.

    I believe people need to start seperating their beliefs from the church. Just because you want to live your life based on Christian morals does not mean you must necessarily support the church. And just because you choose not to support the church, does not mean you must be athiest.

    The church does wonderful things for masses of people, gives them guidance and support and teaches them to be better people, but any organisation with that much power will always breed corruption.

    I don’t agree with many things the Catholic church does, but I do have strong Christian values. I was raised by parents who both grew up in strict Catholic households and went to Catholic schools. They both moved away from the church as adults but retained their belief in Christ and the morals they learnt as children and they passed those morals on to me.

    I strongly believe people should practise religion as a way of life and a private belief system, not simply by subscribing to a multi-billion dollar organisation.

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    • b

      Exactly what I think!

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    • Belle

      I agree adhering to a Religion means practising a certain way of life. However in order to properly adhere to these ideals, guidance from a broader community and Church leaders is necessary.

      The ‘Church’ isn’t just an overarching organisation, the Church consists fundamentally of individual parishioners, coming together to celebrate their love for God. There is great value in the organisational structure of the Church and the sense of community it creates for its parishioners. I think you can recognise this value whilst still accepting greater efforts must be taken to bring justice to the individuals and families who have been abused.

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      • Rebecca

        That’s all well and good but if the leaders of that organisation don’t subscribe to those same beliefs around justice then you’re in a bit of trouble aren’t you. Especially when it’s those leaders are putting these pedos in your nice little community church.

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  46. Two things…

    1. Religion does not equal faith. Faith is personal to each individual. Religion is a man-made construct use by people (mostly men) to control people of faith.

    2. There can be a huge difference between small “r” religion and big “R” religion. For most people, small “r” religion is what they encounter on a day to day basis. Their local church, minister, priest, synagogue, rabbi…whatever. Most people involved in small “r” religion are good people. Big “R” religion, on the other hand, is all about power and politics. An individual’s personal faith can get left behind when big “R” religion fails to uphold its duty to the people whose faith they claim to represent.

    I don’t really have any answers, these were just observations from an atheist standing on the outside looking in.

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    • Lorren

      And as a ‘r’eligious person – I whole heartily agree! Perfectly put JohnJames!

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  47. Kate

    At the tender age of six, while sitting in kindergarten scripture class at a Catholic primary school, we were learning the Lords Prayer.
    I cocked my head to one side, as I heard the teacher recite the prayer, thinking hard about the words she was saying. “Our father who art in heaven…”
    I piped up, unable to keep my silence any longer
    “If god art in heaven, where is he?”
    I was kicked out of scripture that day and put in detention. I stuck with “religion” until after year 2, for one reason only – I wanted to have my first holy communion and get a pretty dress and get to drink wine, like my sister had done 2 years earlier. After that, religion and I parted ways and I’ve been a proud athiest ever since. I used to go to church with my Gran occasionally, to keep the peace, but felt like screaming at the Priest for the contraditions and illogical statements the he kept saying. After I got so worked up one say, I threw up in the church toilet and the only time I’ve been to a church since is to see my cousin, then my friends get married.
    Come over to the dark side – we have cookies!

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    • 10pm

      lol.

      While I haven’t become an atheist, I too didn’t get on well with Catholicism at school due to my questioning nature..

      I refused to say ‘I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church” in the creed from about 8, because I didn’t believe in a church – that did not go down well with the nuns at school. I think that was the first time I got the cuts…

      I think I most closely align with Universalism/Unitarianism – where all your answers are questioned :)

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  48. Girl

    What a fantastic piece. It really crystallises how I feel about the Catholic church and why I find it so hard to understand why people can align themselves (even in a ‘Submarine Catholic’ kind of way) with this institution. The way the powers that be have handled so many horrible incidents is just appalling and there seems to be very little outcry from the members of the church.

    I know that the Catholic church has done wonderful things for communities all over the world. But for me, that will never be enough to outweigh the horrors that so many families have been put through, not just by the actions of some priests, but by the mismanagement and heartlessness of those in charge.

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  49. mamamegan

    great post, agree 100%

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  50. Gemma

    ‘God wil punish those priests in his own way. There is no need to involve the police in Church matters.’ – this ridiculous response is why secularism is so important.

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