Gina Rinehart
by MIA FREEDMAN
Here’s something weird: the idea that if you call yourself a feminist, you are duty bound to support the actions and ideology of every other person in the world who has a vagina. Really? No, REALLY?
This week has been interesting. I’ve fielded many surprising “how-can-you-call-yourself-a-feminist?” accusations via social media on two very different subjects.
The first was triggered by my column (which you can read here) where I wrote about Birthzillas. Apparently, by questioning women who choose to give birth at home despite their pregnancies being high risk (with often fatal consequences for their babies), I am somehow ‘betraying the sisterhood’.
The same accusation was made last week when, on Twitter, I questioned mining magnate Gina Rinehart’s bid to hire and fire editors at Fairfax where she is now the biggest shareholder. So to be clear: apparently if you are a feminist, you should support everything every other woman does just because…….she’s a woman. How insane and insulting, this idea of using the word ‘feminism’ to shut down debate and critical thought on the basis of what’s in your knickers.
As How To Be A Woman author Caitlin Moran says, “When did feminism become confused with Buddhism? I don’t build in a 20 per cent ‘Genital Similarity Regard Bonus’ if I meet someone else wearing a bra. If someone’s an arsehole, someone’s an arsehole – regardless of whether we’ve both been standing in the longer toilet queue at festivals or not.”
Sing it sister. For me, feminism is simply about equality. And that doesn’t mean giving anyone a get-out-of-jail free card just because they’re female.
What does feminism mean to you? Does feminism mean sticking up for the choices of all women, even when you disagree with them? Do you consider yourself to be a feminist?
Comments
302 Comments so far
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/babys-death-due-to-rash-mother-says-irate-coroner-20120628-215a2.html
Another article about this preventable death and Joyous Birth.
Makes me sad and angry. Does anyone have any advice as to how I can rally against these sort of preachers and free birthing?
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-28/lack-of-medical-care-blamed-for-home-birth-death/4098498?section=nsw
Rachael, Did you see this news story today?
It is shocking and breaks my heart. It is the reason why i could never support someone who chooses to free birth. I consider this research and information.
You have your opinion and let me have mine. Yes, I am for real.
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I don’t feel comfortable discussing the case as I’ve met Janet and am devastated for her. But I would support her right to make that choice 100 times over because it’s her body and hers to make.
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I am sorry. I am devastated for her too.
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I lost a bit of sleep over this last night because I wondered how you met the mother (Janet). I wondered if you support or are linked to movements such as Joyous Birth, for which Janet is a leading figure? I personally think they are mad and responsible for the death of this baby. I understand some babies die is hospital too but free birth seems insanely risky. Sorry to bring up this debate again, it is just so tragic.
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I know a few people who know her (used her as a doula or whatever she calls herself) and when I criticised a post she made, was told “Lay off, she comes from a place of great hurt”. Um, she chose to put herself there by freebirthing. Sorry, but she did. It’s awful what happened, but she lives MAX 20 minutes from about 3 hospitals with maternity units, and one with a birth centre.
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Im not sure what it is you want from me Mich. You’ve come from a place of judgement from the outset. You know nothing about me, nothing about homebirthers as a group because they are as individual as all the women who give birth in hospital. What we do have in common is support for each other with regards to birth rights. That’s it.
Although its none of your business I met Janet many years ago long before she was the public face of homebirth and before Joyous Birth. Yes, I have been a member of the site, but my birthing days have passed so it holds little interest to me. I would say most women on the site birth with midwives with a lesser portion in hospital or unassisted. They go there for support that is not forthcoming in the broader community.
I would caution against believing everything you read in the media, and of buying into the stereotype of the radical homebirther. I also find it absolutely incredible the hypocrisy of concern for welfare of babies given risks involved in unnecessary interventionist births. Homebirthers stay home because research tells us it is safe for mothers and babies. It is quite normal in places like The Netherlands, the UK and NZ.
What happened in this one instance you are fixated on is an absolute tragedy – no question. But it is a far bigger tragedy for the mother and her family than it is for you. What purpose is there in demonising her?
As someone earlier posted in the comments, why aren’t we asking why women feel the need to make these choices? Suggesting it is due to selfishness is so far from the mark and unbelievably ignorant and insensitive.
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The case involving Janet baffles me, why no trained medical assistance at all? Seems to me like she was trying to prove a point (to herself and her readers). I respect national media reports more than websites such as Joyous Birth. I respect a lot of what you have to say in regard to choice and extra support needed for woman but some of your views are too extreme for me to agree with.
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This is why, years ago, I decided to call myself an Egalitarian.
Feminism is not about equality and there will always be “Feminists” for whom someone wanting gender equality is just not radical enough.
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Calling a woman a feminist just because she’s doing SOMETHING doesn’t make her a feminist or the act she’s doing a feminist one. Look at the brouhaha surrounding Sarah Palin calling herself a feminist, when her ideologies are the furthest thing from feminism, just because she’s a successful woman in a male dominated industry.
Also, Gina Rinehart is a horrible person. I don’t know anyone – male, female or otherwise – who supports her actions.
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I judge others, and their arguments, on merit not gender, and I want to be judged by the same standard. That to me is what being a feminist is all about. I am free to criticize any man or woman that I disagree with, and they can do the same to me. I won’t support someone just because they are a women or criticize someone just because they are a man. But it doesn’t give me the right to make choices for other people or to say what their choices should be.
The birthing issue is a particularly emotive one and we sometimes lose sight of the fact that it is possible to criticize or question a person’s choices without having to take away those choices.
I am a feminist with two young children. I’ve never had an abortion. The idea of having an abortion fills me with fear and dread and makes me very uncomfortable. I’m grateful I’ve never been pregnant when I didn’t want to be, or needed an abortion. I hope my own daughter never has to have one. But I would NEVER want the rights of other women to choose an abortion to be diminished, or to be made less safe or available. It is about personal choice and circumstance.
The birthing argument is very similar to me. I delivered both my children in hospital. I survived and so did my babies and we all went home happy and healthy. I consider a home birth too risky and I would never choose one. I disagree with the choice of women who choose a home birth. However, once again, I would NEVER want them to lose the right to make that choice as it is a case of personal choice and circumstance. I think the risks outweigh any benefits. They don’t. That is their choice and whilst I might disagree, it is not up to me to decide how other people should give birth – home birth, birth plan or otherwise.
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Some of you have disingenuously concluded that any criticism of Mia and her article is akin to not allowing her to have her own opinion.
She has an opinion in the public sphere – should we not be allowed to dissect, analyse and critique that opinion?
I have no problem with people having a different opinion, I have no problem with people making different choices, but ‘grow up’ and ‘you should listen to the doctors’ does not make for intelligent discussion or real discourse.
I have been fairly clear in my arguments as to why I believe it’s feminist to support women through the range of birthing choices even when I disagree with them. That’s fairly fundamental I would have thought. And yet I haven’t see a valid counter argument or well thought out idea which would see women forced into a system they don’t want to be in.
If people are genuinely interested in the well being of babies, they need to support those women who will birth outside the system. Many of them choose independent midwives and that will be the safest option for many. By throwing around uninformed opinions with no alternative beyond ‘suck it up’ offered, you possibly endanger more women and their babies.
Back to the actual topic of the article and indeed I see many of the commenters as not very good feminists and not truly understanding what it means to support women. Just my opinion of course.
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Rachael, sorry but how does, “listen to the doctors” not make for intelligent discussion? I’m actually having trouble understanding how, “if people are genuinely interested in the well being of babies, they need to support those women who will birth outside the system”, makes for intelligent discussion. I CHOSE to give birth in hospital, I wasn’t forced into a system and thank god because my third child wouldn’t have survived without the ‘system’.
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Well for starters, doctors aren’t infallible and some are better than others. I don’t blindly listen to them and there are many who do infact support homebirth.
The fact is some women want homebirth. You made your choice to birth at hospital and that’s fine but ‘listen to the doctors’ hardly addresses the dissatisfaction some women feel with the hospital system.
I’m still genuinely interested in how people think they can force mothers to go to hospital when they don’t want to. What those people can do however, is support a womens choice to give birth at home with or without a midwife. It’s not that hard. You choose for you, and let me choose for me.
I would not force a homebirth on you even if I could. I support and encourage your choice to give birth at hospital where you feel the safest. I only ask that the same support and respect for my decision to birth at home is extended in return.
If you cannot extend that support, woman to woman, then I’m still interested to know how anyone can MAKE a woman give birth in hospital. To me how everyone FEELS about homebirth is entirely irrelevant. But I think if there’s an argument on whether or not homebirth should be an option it’s only logical to nut out how you would enforce that.
Through sorting that out, one arrives at the conclusion that it is impossible to police a womans body without violating her human rights. And I hope one would realise that we wouldn’t that anyway because where would it end? Will someone come and lock you up when you’re deemed to be damaging your fetus by having a glass of wine with some brie on a cracker? Farcical right? But if you insist on a line, then you have to realise one day you fall on the wrong side of it. And that is why the line is my body and it’s MINE to do as I please whether there’s a baby in it or not.
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Good argument, you’re good at this. I was thinking about it last night and according to your argument I’ve concluded that I am a very bad feminist because (I’m sorry) I can’t bring myself to support your choice of having a home birth. I can’t do it because throughout your argument I didn’t feel one spec of compassion for my son. Maybe I have a more practical view. Gotta go and get the kids to school. Have a good day.
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Are you for real?
I am good at it because I’ve lived it. I’ve had strangers tell me I was risking mine and my child’s life by birthing at home. Most of those opinions are unresearched and uninformed. They are also extremely offensive.
I guess you calling me uncompassionate trumps all though does it? What a cheap shot.
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Rachael, the issue I’m grappling with is whether or not one can disagree with someone else’s choices and voice that opinion but still ‘support’ the right to make that choice.
Specifically… can you be a Feminist, support a woman’s right to do whatever she likes in regards to birth but still speak out about the (real or perceived) dangers of home births and publicly give an opinion that home births are “bad” or “risky” or “idiotic” or “evil” or “insert some other negative adjective here”. Is that still supporting home birth or is it just contradictory?
My opinion is that a Feminist can disagree with other’s choices but still support their right to make that choice…. in which case I would say Mia (in this instance) is still being a ‘Feminist’, even though she personally disagrees with home births. Or is it more complex than that? Is the language used and the approach when voicing the opinon important as well?
I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts as feel you have made some pretty balanced and interesting points above.
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I believe that you can, but I’m not convinced that Mia has done that.
An example, I have given birth twice at home with the assistance of midwives. In weighing up the risks I felt that it was a safe choice, with hospital back up if I needed and on the expert advice of my midwives.
I would not freebirth. I personally perceive the risks to be too high, however I recognise that those women who choose it have to make their own informed decision.
I do understand what you’re saying, but being someone who is a more ‘conservative’ homebirther for want of a better word, I’ve still been ridiculed and belittled for my choices and I would not do that to another person simply because I would not make the same choice for myself.
Perhaps it’s semantics, but I think when you belittle someone for their different choice, on something so fundamental as their body autonomy then no, I don’t think that’s what Feminism is or should be about.
So you can say, *I* perceive the risk to be too high and wouldn’t do that – but too state your opinion as fact i.e the risk *is* too high and to demonise a woman who would make that choice is to cross a line.
Actually these choices become much more grey when the baby is born because other women (and parents) make choices every day that we won’t agree with and there are lines drawn so we can identify what actually constitutes child abuse etc. But in the case of birth, the baby is still in someones body. A womans body. And that can’t be policed. If we acknowledge that, then even disagreeing on the level of risk, we must ackowledge and thereby support her right to make that choice.
I still come back to abortion, because the right to have abortion or any sort of birth control is the perfect example of what Feminism as it relates to body autonomy is about. Why is birth excluded from this?
Obviously a lot of this is open to interpretation. Only Mia herself knows what she thinks and means. But I find the views of many commenters so pervasive as to be alarming. I believe several of the commenters would make homebirth illegal if they were able (the how of it remains unanswered)
Many of these views are not what I believe feminism is about.
Anyway I would ask one more time what happens if we switch the scenario. Let’s say suddenly hospital births are out of vogue and only available to women deemed high risk. Would you not want the support of all women in demanding hospital birth be available to all those who want it? Would you feel supported if you were constantly ridiculed for desiring the strange practice of giving birth in hospital?
I WILL support you because I want you to be free to govern over your body, pregnant or not. And I demand the same.
Clear as mud?
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Thanks for your response Rachael.
I guess it does come down to semantics a bit but I think you have explained it well.
In (a slightly oversimplified) summary, yes you can support the right to make a choice whilst still disapproving of said choice…. but when expressing that disapproval don’t get personal and make it clear it’s only your opinion and not absolute fact.
Whether or not Mia has done that in her article is a debate I’ll keep for another day although I will say that her ‘intent’ is not necessarily the most important thing to consider….
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Regarding home births…
We may disapprove of someone’s choice regarding their own body but we should defend to the death their right to make that choice.
As a result we should defend the right to abortion, home births and any other choice pertaining to one’s own body.
Whilst in some cases it may be riskier to have a baby at home, supporting a woman’s right to weigh up her options and make that decision for herself is pretty much the whole basis of Feminism.
However……. The grey area for me is whether or not we’re then allowed to criticise those choices.
If Mia genuinely believes a home birth is risky behaviour for Mother and Child then I don’t see a huge problem with her saying so. Mia isn’t calling for homebirths to be outlawed (as far as I know?) she’s just expressing an opinion on that particular choice….. there are two sides to this argument though…. on the one hand, shaming and silencing women who make certain choices (often for good reason) IS anti-feminist… on the other hand, we can’t be expected to agree with every single choice a woman ever makes ….
It’s a tricky one…. I can’t say I can decide which is the right answer.
Oh, and Feminism meaning supporting Gina Rinehart purely because she’s a woman? Utter rubbish.
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Feminism does NOT mean all women should due cheered for any accomplishment just because they are female – so patronising! You don’t get a free pass for gender. Sorry, I can disagree with plenty of women. And men. EQUALLY:)
It does not mean women are ‘better’ than men. Just different, but capable in many ways equal to a man. Not always, and about 50/50 better or worse in that. Just physical realities, but not insurmountable ones.
It means choice, not condemning those who choose differently – SAHM, FT work, PT work, lots of kids (I get so sick of negative comments about having 5 kids), few kids, no kids, one kid.
I want my daughters, and son, to have choices, real ones, but in the understanding life is a balancing act, and it is impossible to have it all. Just have what you can, and make it work for you!
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Goodness me, everyone has an opinion don’t they.. but apparently the writer of the article is NOT allowed to have one?!
You are aggressive towards Mia because she has an opinion that differs from your own.. so should I say you are not a feminist because you don’t support one of your sister’s opinions? No, we are entitled to our opinions and that is a large part of what the early stages of feminism was about – giving women the right to speak up, vote and have a say on how they want their lives and community to be.
These are blogs/opinion pieces ladies.. not highly researched factual investigatory articles – there is a big difference.
As feminists, or hey.. just as Australians, we have the right to an opinion. So, chill out.
I wouldn’t agree with putting my child, or myself at risk by having a home birth if it was considered risky (I don’t have a problem with homebirths generally though) – does that make me an awful person? Of course it’s the women’s choice, I don’t think anywhere in Mia’s article did it say that it wasn’t – however, if a child’s life at risk, who is to answer for the bad choice that is made?
And Gina Rienheart – seriously women? What has this women done for women’s equality, women’s rights? Just because she is a savvy business women (who was born into the business, not built from scatch mind you) doesn’t mean we need to love or agree with her because she has a vagina. I find her terribly greedy and not in touch with/or could care less about women’s issues. In the weekend newspaper it was revealed that she does not donate 1c to charity.. not 1c from the wealthiest women in the world. Yeah, well frankly I’m not sure how much sisterhood support she needs if she can’t even dribble a few cents into some charity work with all the money she has. That’s just plain horrid.
So, do i need to love her because she is a women? No, as Caitlain Moran said – if someone’s an arsehole, someone’s an arsehole.
Mia – I don’t always agree with you, but then again, I don’t always agree with everyone – that’s how the world and conscious and critical thought works. But as we live in this fine land and don’t have threats of being tortured or jailed because of our opinions, that is a-okay!
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Wow Mia, publishing this article is pretty poor behaviour on your part. You marginalise and attack vulnerable grief stricken women who have suffered that most unimaginable of all losses, the loss of a child. And then instead of having the courage of your convictions and standing by your words, you publish screenshots of women on twitter who disagree with you and you try and deflect the very justifiable criticism aimed at this despicable and trashy website by crying, “Poor me, Poor misunderstood me” Shame Mia, Shame.
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It’s feminist to critique the system that leads some individual women to make what you see as bad choices.
It’s not feminist to critique the individual women.
That’s the difference, and that’s why the birthzillas article wasn’t feminist.
And it would be nice to see Mia have a look at what it is about the current hospital system in Australia that leads women to want to opt out, rather than just criticising women for doing so. Perhaps she could ask some of them, rather than making assumptions. That might be interesting to read.
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No it’s your agenda to critique the system that leads to what Mia and many of us see as bad choices. That’s nothing to do with feminism.
Women have come on here and said why they wanted out of the hospital system, and if the reasons given (as some gave) were that they didn’t like the food or other people’s visitors were too noisy or numerous, then that deserves derision.
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I have no personal agenda to critique the system – I don’t have kids, and if I did, I’d have them in a hospital. That’s my choice.
But it’s still not feminist to critique individual women and not the system. I saw a lot of women give reasons that seemed a lot better than visitors or food – and I think, in the interests of safety particularly, it’s a better idea to address those reasons and work out how we can make women feel more in control of the process within the hospital system and working with doctors and midwives, than to just criticise the women who opt out.
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“It’s not feminist to critique the individual women.”
I disagree. It depends on what/how you’re critiquing.
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http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/06/why_are_women_s
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It is an enormous leap in logic to equate the idea that women are very critical of each other (as described in the link you posted) to the idea that to be a feminist you shouldn’t criticize other women. I’m a feminist and I’ll criticise any man or woman that I disagree with. Because I judge others and their opinions on merit – not their gender.
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Personally, I kind of reject most labels that people apply to me. As a woman, that second x chromosome of mine makes up only a tiny proportion of my identity. It does not make me enjoy shopping, fashion or buy shoes; it doesn’t stop me from watching soccer; and it does not mean that you’ll ever catch me watching Sex And The City. There are so many things that make up my identity – the fact that I’m agnostic, that I’m white, that I’m in a relationship, that I’m a parent, that I’m straight, that I was born in Australia, that I vote a particular way, that I have been educated in a particular way, that I’m naturally more gifted at humanities than I am at mathematics…
I identify with women no more or no less than I do with men just as I identify with white people no more or no less than black people or Asian people or mixed race people. And I need not associate only with agnostics nor left leaning people. There is something more fundamental that I identify with as that is my simple identity as a human being.
I’ve moved on from an early education in feminism, from Simone de Beauvoir’s existentialism to Emmeline Pankhurst and the suffragette movement. I learned about those in the Age of Enlightenment – men and women like Jeremy Bentham, Mary Wollstonecraft, Marquis de Condorcet and Lucretia Mott – who worked to advance the notion of women as equals to men. And I was inspired by women like Marie Curie (first double Nobel prize winner) and Madame Cliquot (amazing businesswoman who managed to raise children as a widow while expanding her late husband’s champagne business) and, fortunately for me, raised in a time and country and a family where my gender was not going to hinder me from achieving what I want to achieve.
I will not deny that the equality of opportunity available to me today is down to feminism and the work to advance equality that has been undertaken over the past 300 years or so. And yes, there is so much more work to be done, especially in other countries. But I see this as a human rights issue, and I think that, somewhere along the way, the term “feminism” has been tarnished. I wouldn’t like important human rights work to be undermined by a preconception that people have of what feminism means.
Sure, we can try to re-claim the term, make people understand what it really means. Or we could use that energy to make more of a tangible difference and address the problems that cause a lack of equality. Perhaps we can’t solve the problem of female subjugation in Afghanistan but we can look to see where we can improve in our own community – and improve outcomes for men and women.
What about seeking to improve men’s health to the extent that we do women’s? What about campaigning for universal parental leave, rather than maternity leave, so that couples make a real choice about who stays at home to raise the child, rather than assuming that a father would prefer to be at work? This is available from the government but most private enterprise that provides parental leave offers 3 months for maternity and a few days for paternity. How about a change in culture where the assumption – in the case of custody hearings – is not a presumption in favour of the mother? How about offering more flexible working practices in traditionally male dominated professions?
Finally, how about an end to the assumptions and judgements that many women have to tolerate that men don’t? Why is there an assumption that a woman will stop work to take maternity leave but not that a man will stop work? Why is there an assumption that women want to have children but not an assumption that a man does? Why is there an assumption that women want or need partners but not an assumption that a man does?
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Like. Like. Like.
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You know as you get older the chance of your vagina prolapsing is a very real prospect…..just saying
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so at what point in a pregnancy does a woman lose her civil rights and right to make her own medical decisions? at 20 wks? at 24 wks? 40 wks? 42wks?
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Exactly. Folks need to think through their arguments to their logical conclusion.
We start with the policing the ‘at term’ woman and end up locking up pregnant women who enjoy soft cheeses.
Am I being ridiculous? People need to realise you can’t have it both ways. To me, part of being feminist is supporting a womans choice even when I may not agree with it.
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When she’s putting herself and her baby, which she decided to bring into the world, in danger by putting her choices before anything?
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Why don’t you tell us what feminism means to you Mia? You seem to have plenty to say on what feminism is not but I am curious to know what you think feminism is.
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Second last sentence in the article.
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If you read right to the end of the post, Mia says ..
“For me, feminism is simply about equality”.
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Excuse me if this has been covered (and answered) further down but –
Publically shaming people who disagree with you is not cool. Using their names and photos without permission is wrong, especially when the balance of power is clearly in your favour.
But I know from being a regular reader here for a few years that Mia is NEVER wrong. Mia, you need to grow a thicker skin.
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I must say, I also thought this re-publishing of tweets was not necessary
Unless you had permission from the other parties?
By all means argue a position but I’m a bit uncomfortable about the way this has been done.
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But they’re already in the public domain. Anyone can sign up to twitter and read them.
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I take your point. Not interested in twitter so I wouldn’t have seen them unless they were put up here.
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I believe twitter posts are considered public information – people are free to repost and distribute via other interfaces (or use in research whatever).
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True, but it would have been a conscious decision to not blur the Twitter user ID on Mia’s behalf. She has blurred them before. To me it seems like a show of power and wrong.
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I disagree. If you’re commenting on twitter, you choose a name to make those comments under, and an avatar to go with both your name and your comments. If you tweet it, you are standing by what you say and putting your twitter name and image out there with it.
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A world of difference between them being there, and plucking them from context and putting them in front of hundreds of thousands of people (520,000 unique browsers a month).
Even if Mia was meticulous is representing the views of these others, the editors have failed by simultaneously 1) accepting only Mia’s account of an argument 2) publicly identifying only a few of a vast number of critics 3) failing to offer a right of reply to women who did not author arguments for this publication.
There may be no compulsion to be a respectable online publisher, but why wouldn’t you?
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They’re already there for hundreds of thousands of people to read though. Not sure how many followers on Twitter Mia’s up to now, but it’s huge. They can be retweeted. If you don’t want to be identified, don’t put yourself out there.
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The difference between publishing your own views on Twitter and having them (re)published by someone else is the party responsible. mamamia did not take its responsibility seriously in this matter.
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Why? It was in relation to articles that had been published on Mamamia, directly to the author and publisher. How is it any different to publishing comments on here, or letters to the editor in the paper?
Does everyone who retweets or refers to something someone else said follow your rules? And do they come under fire when they don’t?
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I completely agree, Cam. There is an enormous difference between people putting an opinion out into the public sphere, to other twitter users who are used to seeing these kind of debates, and posting it on your website, totally out of context, for 520,000 people to see.
In the first instance, the message is out there to add to the debate. The women who wrote these things had a different opinion on what was quite a controversial topic, and they put it out there on twitter.
That is NOT the same as a publisher putting their details up on a website in order for them to be ridiculed.
For someone who has very honourably gone out and defended women who have been subject to public attacks because of their personal opinions, I find it very sad that Mia would do that to someone else. Surely she knows how it feels?
And anyway… big difference between was is legally and ethically right.
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I agree Knox. I have found (disappointingly) that many times a commenter has written a comment disagreeing with her, or providing an alternate opinion… she’s often responded with a sarcastic and/or snarky response.
I find it a bit sad that apparently if you disagree with her, you’re wrong.
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I was telling my girls the other day that when I was growing up in the 70s, jobs were still listed in the Courier Mail as ‘Positions for Men & Boys’ and ‘Positions for Women & Girls.’ My father thought it was just plain silly when they changed the listings to be gender neutral. Whatever we call it, however it’s defined or lived, feminism’s work is not done.
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Judging by some of the comments on this, being a feminist = whinging and moaning about other people having differing opinions and ideas. I am all for human rights, but whether you are female or male makes no difference to me, so I guess I am a HUMANIST.
And before you all start crapping on about that being a cop out… take a breath, because I don’t care what you think. I can still stand up for my rights and those of my fellow women without wearing the label of feminist.
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“For me being a feminist doesnt mean agreeing with anyone who has a vagina”
Perfectly said. Thats the argument over for me.
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Where the whole thing gets a bit murky for me is when something like Lingerie Football comes up. I think it’s a shocker of an activity (not a sport) and no way on Gods green earth would I let my daughters get involved (realising that my window of control will close at some point). But when I’ve commented as such, the retort is ‘Call yourself a feminist? How dare you negatively judge women who want to celebrate their athleticism in the way they choose. Playing football in your undies in front of thousands is empowering! It’s FEMINISM!’ Actually, it’s not but I run out of words and energy to argue.
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I am also very sick of the word ‘empowering’. And lingerie football makes me want to weep for the current generation of girl children.
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Well that’s a load of bollocks. Yup those girls have the choice to do it, but that doesn’t mean I can’t think it’s tacky, stupid and anti-feminist.
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Sorry, but if being a feminist means elevating Gina Rinehart to the same status as Aung San Suu Kyi, then I’m no feminist….and proud not to be one
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To me, tonight, feminism means acknowledging, highlighting and opposing structural inequalities (institutional and unconscious discrimination) especially regarding women and the feminine.
It does not mean sticking up for the choices of all women. Many women makes stupid choices, and—presumably—still others make only stupid choices. Feminism has little to do with the choices women make, rather the contexts in which they are made.
Yes. I consider myself a feminist. Raised by them, taught by them, raising one. Mind you, done plenty of unfeminist, and perhaps even anti-feminist, things in my time.
Do you see how that works, Mia? Being a feminist and doing feminist things are different. Like being a teacher and teaching. Or being a goal-kicker and kicking goals.
Claiming be a feminist becomes fraught if you do no feminist things for a while, but I don’t think you’re in any immediate danger there. ‘Birthzillas’ on the other hand made many isoloated and linked unfeminist arguments/claims (such as—previously discussed—declaring elements of other women’s very personal birth-plans ‘trivial’ as if you (and not they) were the arbiter of meaning in their lives).
It is disingenuous to say you “questioned” birthzillas and Gina Rinehart. You opined. In the case of birthzillas, extensively and carelessly.
I can’t believe that anyone raised in the insidiousness of the last half-century could be such a successful feminist that all of their actions and utterances are beyond the reach of reasonable feminist critique.
Engaging with the criticism makes us better feminists. This article was a missed opportunity.
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Cam @ notunimportant.com – what a great comment!
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agreed! good on you mia
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Just because you don’t agree with another woman’s decision, doesn’t make you a ‘bad feminist’ Mia. Holding onto your opinion and using it to sway others to make a better decision, shows you strive for the ultimate good!
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Sticking to your guns can be a good thing.
However, I have much more respect for people who debate with people with an actual intention not just of being heard but of listening. Sometimes when you start discussing things you might realise your original assertion was wrong. It is important to be able to admit that, not only for the other person but for your own sake
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Reading the comments in here off and on throughout the day reinforces to me why I stopped referring to myself as a feminist about 15 years ago. I don’t identify with some of the interpretations that are commonly associated with the word and I don’t want to be held to any expectation of what I supposedly should or shouldn’t believe simply because of some 8-letter label that very few seem to agree on what it means anyway.
I won’t back you simply because we have the same anatomy, nor will I disparage you because we don’t. I will however support anyone’s right to have equal opportunity, to be treated with respect and dignity and to have the chance to make their voice heard. However just because I support you doesn’t mean I’ll always agree with you or your decisions. Nor does it mean that I’ll be silent about it or am somehow trashing my fellow ‘sisters’ by expressing that dissent.
The whole argument just baffles me at this point.
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For all those who suppport Mia in her views on homebirthing, if the mother to be wanted to have a homebirth, and the father to be didn’t, would you support the mother or the father?
I’m not and was never interested in birthing at home, but suppport women being able to if they are low risk, and yes i realise that any birth can become a nightmare.
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I’d probably support the mother, because it is she who has to go through the birthing process (although if the birth itself was a high risk one, I don’t believe I would support it at all). I’d want to speak with both parents though, to find out why the mother wants to have the baby at home and why the father does not. If either of them have ridiculous reasons for wanting / not wanting the baby to be born there, then obviously you’d try to inject reason into the conversation. If it ended up as the mother having perfectly valid reasons for wanting a homebirth, and being a low risk candidate, and the father still being totally opposed, I would have to support the mother and as a last resort request that the father not be present (although that’s really pushing it). At that point, I’d probably be questioning their actual relationship, because if they can’t agree on this, then how are they going to agree on the very minor (insert sarcastic tone here) issue of raising a child?
For the record, I support homebirth for low risk candidates and have attended a fair few of them.
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I wouldnt think of it that way. Supporting the mother or the father. Id be supporting the decision, based on facts, not whether or not it was a mother or father/man or woman/etc who said it. I would want to know the reasons for both people’s decision, and support whichever made most sense/was more thought through/had solid reasons. It might be the mother, it might be the father, but it wouldnt be because they were the mother, or because they were the father….
Wondering why in a conversation about feminism you brought it back to being about supporting one gender over another? Im hoping, hoping you did that deliberately to make a point and not because you honestly believe that it is that black and white.
I want to point out, too, that if the mother wanted the baby at home, but the father didnt out of worry for his wife and child and had medical reasons to back him up, supporting him would NOT be anti-feminist just because its not the opinion of the woman — there is a difference between saying “she has no choice because she is a woman, who cares if its her body” (anti-feminist) and saying “I dont think her choice is a good one, for the sake of her and her baby, so I dont support what she is doing as it is endangering her child and herself” (NOT anti-feminist). It would all be down to the reasoning.
I dont like how feminism has come to mean supporting the rights of women above all else – yes, women should be allowed to make choices about their own bodies, strongly agreed, but if its at the cost of her own baby’s safety? we should be supporting her no matter what the outcome or the safety/opinions of anyone else involved purely because we are all women?
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Yes, of course we should. Would you like someone to tell you what you can and can’t do with your body? There’s no grey area here. Women either have autonomy over their body or they don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
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I think this is the danger though, when it comes to looking at things in such a black and white way – you are willing to support any womans decision that affects her body in any way above and beyond the safety of anyone else involved. If the topic is women in labour, there is more than one body involved here, isnt there? So youre saying that we should support a womans right to do whatever she wants during labour, no matter the consequences or how well known the consequences are, and that that is more important that the safety of her baby? (I want to note here that this is just an example, and in no way a reflection on my views on where or how a woman “should” give birth).
I want to point out that there is a difference between supporting a decision and supporting a right to be able to make that decision. Do I support a womans right to be able to make any decision regarding her body no matter the consequences? Yes. Completely. Do I support the actual decision she makes? That depends on the information and circumstances.
For example, to use the same situation, a woman should be able to give birth where and how she likes, with as little or as much intervention as she likes and so on. She should have the right to make that decision. However, if she was told that the risks were high for her baby, explained that the consequences of not taking medical advice were harsh and likely, and she does it anyway? I reserve the right to think she is being wreckless with her baby’s life and therefore, while I support the right to make that decision, I would not support the decision itself.
You seem to equate not supporting a womans decision with being equal to not wanting her to have the right to make it. They are two separate things.
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I agree with you (I think)…in that you do not have to agree but you must support a woman’s right to govern her own body. No matter the risk, until babies can be gestated outside a woman’s womb then we are stuck with the risk and any consequence from the decisions the mother makes.
No, we as feminists do not need to agree on everything, it’s true. But at its core there must be some fundamental truths and owning and being fully I charge of our own bodies is one of them. I would argue equally hard that you can’t call yourself a feminist unless you are pro-choice. Would I have an abortion? No, I don’t believed I would – but I’d fight for any woman’s right to have one.
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I also want to make it clear that Im not using women in labour as a pet cause here – it was just the example given – but my comments seem to apply to anything women do – we have to support their decisions no matter what the consequences because we are women. Support their right to make those decisions? Yes. Automatically agree with them? No.
If men do that – agree with other men just because they are men – we call them sexist. Double standards like that are not okay.
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I’m sorry but those two examples just do not mesh.
You can call yourself a feminist if you like, you can even trot out your opinion on the risks of homebirth…but if you don’t believe all women should have full autonomy of their own bodies, pregnant or not, then you are kidding yourself that you are indeed, a feminist.
It doesn’t mean feminism is one size fits all, but there are some fundamentals on which we all need to agree if it’s to stand for anything at all.
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The definition of femInism is to promote and defend equal rights for women. I just can’t see what that has to do with home birth.
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No you’re right – it’s actually a human rights issue because women are humans. We should be in charge of our own bodies. Even when birthing. The thing is, only women can give birth and it thereby becomes a feminist issue. I’m not sure how to explain further what it has to do with homebirth. To me it’s fairly plain to see.
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You are right that it’s a human rights issue. And because it’s a human rights issue, the baby’s right to survival takes precedence over the mother’s right to have full control of her body and choose a blissful homebirth, if this choice endangers the baby. To me, this is fairly plain to see.
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So you’re not pro choice?
And under what law does the baby’s right to survival take precedence?
Would you see a woman who chooses homebirth handcuffed and strapped to a hospital bed?
Would you see women being locked up for smoking/drinking/bungy jump/eat blue cheese whilst pregnant?
Do you see how that works?
In the first instance I disagree with you because I don’t believe homebirth IS more risky than hospital in MOST cases.
But, even if I did consider homebirth a risky activity I’d ultimately still have to disagree with you because you can’t police my body.
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I’m pro-choice, and I’m really sick of you guys trotting out this “argument”. Yes, we do (thankfully) have the choice to decide whether or not to have a baby or terminate the pregnancy. However, if you decide to have the baby, you are then agreeing to do your utmost to make sure that that baby has every chance of surviving the pregnancy and birth and thriving. They’re nothing to do with each other. Saying that homebirth is foolhardy and people would be better off in hospital is not advocating chaining people to hospital beds.
Hospital birth does not curtail your choices, it gives you a safety net in case things do go wrong. Grow up.
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Kris2040 I can’t reply to your comment below so doing it here.
Grow up? Really? That’s the best that YOU can do.
Explain how you are going to get me to hospital…? What if I just don’t make it?
Your opinion that I’m not doing the best thing for my baby by birthing at home is entirely subjective. I’ve had three babies, one in a traumatic hospital birth, expedited purely for the benefit of the hospital staff and birthing women in the hospital at the time, as well as two healthy babies born with midwives in attendance at home.
Whilst at home, the only thing that mattered was the baby. In hospital it *can* be myriad other conveniences.
For what it’s worth, I transferred to hospital for heammhorage after my third birth so I agree with you it’s an excellent safety net for women who CHOOSE it.
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Feminist or not maybe just stop over analysing it and start thinking about the baby instead of yourself for a while. Follow the advice of your DOCTOR, get into hospital, have your baby in the safest possible way and get home.
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You must have missed the word “if” in my sentence: “if this choice endangers the baby”.
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How will we know until after the fact? By whose determination. It’s ok to have an idea that you believe in, but how does one apply it in the real world? People don’t seem to be willing to grapple with this question.
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I guess I’m not a feminist then, because I think the life of a baby supersedes the choice of the mother, particularly in the case where it is a high risk birth! I think I’d rather label myself a ‘humanist’ over ‘feminist’.
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Is the mother not a person who is human and alive?
And how are we to police this receptacle for a baby who also happens to be a human?
Firstly, risk is subjective, and I don’t rely on someone who has never met me to determine it.
Secondly, out of all the hundreds and thousands of births we are probably arguing about one or two people (if they even exist at all) who would put themselves and child at ‘risk’ knowingly – and probably due to trauma caused within the hospital system.
Thirdly, no-one I repeat NO-ONE has a greater interest in having a healthy babyand safe birth than the mother herself. Those who choose homebirth choose it very carefully and generally with far more consideration than those who choose a hospital birth.
Let’s turn the tables shall we. Let’s say it’s determined that ‘elective’ c-sections cost too much and impose too much risk on some births so they are scrapped. Would you not have me fight for your right to have them?
This isn’t about agreeing on choices. We don’t have to do that. But you are not a feminist or even a humanist if you think you should be able to police my body in any way.
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Thank you Rachael – your comment is probably the most sensitive and inclusive thing I’ve read in these comments. I simply don’t understand why we have to judge a couple of mother’s who of course would choose to do no harm to their babies. Problematic births and death during birth (for babies and mothers) is such a common thing and full of giref and loss, that I just don’t understand why anyone would point the judgemental finger at a mother they don’t personally know and criticize her birthing choice.
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Am I feminist? Absolutely. My view is that feminism is about ensuring women and girls have the same rights, opportunities and freedoms as our male counterparts. I absolutey disagree with everything Gina Rinehart does and says, but I respect her right to give it a crack. And I respect Mia’s right to disagree. They’re both intelligent women with a point of view, so isn’t it great that we’ve a reached a point in time where they can freely express it.
I absolutely don’t think that anyone – male or female – has the right to act irresponsibly and endanger the life of anyone else, and I wholeheartedly back Mia in speaking out against high risk births being conducted without medical assistance, endangering the lives of babies. That has nothing to do with feminism.
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“They’re both intelligent women with a point of view, so isn’t it great that we’ve a reached a point in time where they can freely express it.”
A bit of an ironic statement when talking about someone who is attempting to interfere with the editorial independence of the press.
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GR has an agenda to push, that’s for sure, and as I say I don’t agree with her on pretty much anything at all – most of all her moves to interfere with editorial independence at Fairfax. However, I defend her right to make decisions in relation to her own business as much as I defend Mia’s and my right to vigorously disagree with them. You don’t have to like everything she says or stands for, but I’m just glad we’ve reached a point in society where women have the right to speak up.
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Hi new girl,
I agree with most of your comment – but I’m a bit puzzled how you can base your argument supporting the right of Gina Rhinehart to interfere with the press as being in any way related to her right to speak up or give it a crack within the context of her business interests.
I steadfastly support the freedom of the press and I wholeheartedly and unashamedly disagree that someone has the right to have an opinion that is different to that. We could get into the semantics of the word ‘right’ here – but I think a ‘right’ is something that has a communal context. And I disagree that people have the right to have any opinion they wish. Though I think we should have an extremely broad basis for disagreement and acceptable differences (I am a staunch subjectivist) – I can’t see how this is possible without freedom of the press – otherwise we will end up making a contradiction.
I’m not sure entirely what motivations Gina Rhinehart has – as a very private person I’m sure she has been deeply emotionally wounded by the very public airing of her family’s affairs. One small part of me feels quite bad for her – maybe if I was in her position and I had too much money, I would buy up the press just to stop them printing sordid stories about my life
. (But I don’t think I should have that right to attempt to).
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I remember at uni someone saying “all females are feminists”. Since that day I’ve also held this belief as feminism is all about equality and which female wouldn’t want that?
I think many people see feminists as being bra burning lesbians but that’s a very stupid and misinformed stereotype.
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Yeah, I’ve had experience with that. A few years ago I had an argument with a guy who assured me that I was not a feminist because I wore makeup and had a boyfriend. He then asked my boyfriend if he thought I was a feminist. Boyfriend’s response: ‘With the amount of time she spends talking about it, yeah, mate, I reckon she probably is.’
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“women have the right to speak up”
Money talks.
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I didn’t say you aren’t or can’t be a feminist, Mia. I questioned whether your ridiculing, insulting and name-calling of women who make choices that are different to yours is feminist behaviour. Unlike you, I don’t have a platform like Mamamia, or a column in the weekend papers, or a regular spot on brekkie tv to get my opinion out there, and misrepresenting me like this (while using my photo without permission, I might add) isn’t cool.
Since I’m apparently a member of The Feminist Police (or am I a Birthzilla? Can’t decide), I should point out that not all women have vaginas.
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But you’re here, aren’t you Eutraphalia? You’re commenting? Thousands of people might read your comment – certainly the Birthzilla post carried many, many comments that slammed Mia’s opinion. One could argue – and what the hell, I will – that by creating this site, Mia is giving women (even those who disagree with her) a very public place to have their voices and opinions heard. Big shiny feminist medal from me, Mia.
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What tends to happen though is that if you disagree with Mia’s opinion on any given topic you cop a lot of flack from other people. This is not a forum where all opinions are equal. You might get your opinion heard but you also get your opinion ridiculed and even your right to have an opinion at all questioned. And god help you if you can’t spell.
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You’re not saying the sycophants are bullies are you
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Yes, I wish the spelling police would disappear too
No fun there. But to your point, all comments ARE equal from the point of view of the site – there is no control over who reads and who replies. It’s quite egalitarian like that. Very, very few comments are deleted. Can you think of another website or blog which accepts anonymous comments in REAL TIME? (i.e. not pre-moderated) That openly SLAM the publisher? Even talkback radio has a producer shielding the announcer from the nasties. On a feisty MM post (and I’ve written one or two) no one cops more flak than the writer. Which is cool. Mostly, we’re up for it. But yes, the site is Mia’s so it’s fair to assume plenty of people are here because they like her writing and are interested in what she has to say.
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“if you disagree with Mia’s opinion on any given topic you cop a lot of flack from other people”
The readership is self-selecting – i.e. a lot of people read this blog because they already agree with some/many/all of Mia’s opinions. So it makes sense that someone who posts an opposing opinion will get flack because people disagree with that opinion.
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Kate. There’s no denying there’s a very free, open forum here in which people can have opinions and use their voices. Entirely beside the point.
Your publication REPRESENTED the voices of others in Mia’s article. Journalistic ethics demand care to ensure the representation was necessary, fair and accurate. There is no evidence this happened.
If these representations were not intended as journalism, then it’s simply Mia using a position of power and influence to arbitrarily name people who disagree with her. That would be ugly.
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Yes! Yes! Yes!
I always am surprised when people think I’m some crazy man hater because I’m a feminist, seriously? I just want equality!
I agree with Mia, for me feminism is about equality
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I am not a feminist, however… if I WERE one, I am not sure how it could slip my radar that Gina Rinehart, a WOMAN, has managed to turn her inheritance into some serious power. Isn’t that what feminism is all about? Empowerment? You can’t have your cake and eat it too, Mia. Or can you?!
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What??!!
SophieBee, I am guessing you didn’t watch 4 Corners to see how manipulative Gina Rinehart is with her inherited money and our country’s resources not to mention what she has in plan for Fairfax.Also….if that is how feminists treat their friends and family you can count me OUT!
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No, I didn’t watch it. Feminists: you’ve got to take the good with the bad. Sort of like, life.
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If you’re not a feminist, do you have a bank account with your name on it? Or a passport with your name on it? Or a driver’s licence? Are you able to make choices on your own without deferring to your father/brother/husband simply because he’s a male? Can you wear what you want, when you want?
Then you’re enjoying the benefits of feminism. If you think that you should be able to continue having those rights and not have them taken away because you’re a female, you’re a feminist.
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Yes! This! Fist pump!
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I keep seeing that picture of Mia with the pink macaroon and I feel hungry and want what ever is in the cup too.
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Tea. English breakfast!
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Damn, thought I had you all worked out. Would have bet you were an Earl Grey lady.
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I’m a stay at home mum who loves to cook and takes pride in keeping a clean home and I consider myself a feminist. Why? Because I made my choices and I am being true to myself and I think the feminism movement is about being allowed to make your own choices and have your own opinions.
In a nutshell I agree with you on this one Mia, and not because you have a vagina
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Couldn’t agree more with you and Caitlin Moran, Mia. I thought feminism was about empowering women to make their own choices. Following the establishment of other women is as bad as following anyone else’s if it’s forced upon you. The “sisterhood” needs to grow the f@ck up and stop being so precious. Women’s rights and equality are not about agreeing with each other all the time and never having an independent thought.
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These are probably the same boneheads who threatened/intimidated/made a mockery of Melinda Tankard Reist for her own feminist views. I classify myself as a feminist also; it shouldn’t be an exclusive, elitist club that don’t allow you to have an opposing view on varying subjects. I am a feminist in that I stand up for females and the exploitation of females and sexism but I am not pro-choice. I disagree with some apparently “fundamental” ideas of feminism…
If its going to be this “cool kids club” then what separates it from a fundamental religion that by the way, feminists are so firmly against? I’ve watched many critisise Mia over the past few days on twitter, the same way I watched them critisise MTR for her alleged affiliation to Christianity… Its ridiculous.
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I agree J. I was so disappointed with the “YOU ARE NOT A FEMINIST” people who attacked MTR. I don’t agree with everything she says and SO WHAT?
It’s not like it’s a club with rules and membership fees.
Or did I miss that memo?
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I am a guest writer for MTR and have been very fortunate with the reaction of readers thus far. But every article is submitted with the fear that I could be the next victim of a hate campaign simply for expressing an opinion and associating myself with the word “feminist.” It is a shame that a word that once epitomized freedom now embodies restriction. If you haven’t seen it, you should watch this speech by Tavi. Somehow a 16 year old managed to “get” feminism in a way so many adults don’t. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6osiBvQ-RRg
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Jane, I saw your post recently on MTR blog… loved it
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I agree with the sentiment of this article.
But I do think the Birthzilla article let you down. Why was it non feminist- Because it was insulting to women as it advocated we should not have choices in birth. You may not like those options and are intitled to say so but the name calling and the mocking tone let you down.
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Feminism to me means equality, both at home and at work.
Personally (in my world), I think we’ve come a lot further at work than home. (but then i dont work in a female dominated industry thats gets less pay because of this eg: teaching, nursing, aged care etc).
I don’t expect every feminist to agree with me
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For me, the meaning of feminism has become either so diverse as to be meaningless, or so extreme as to be very unpalatable.
So I am all for equality of opportunity and appreciation of differences, same as Mia states, but I definitely would not call myself a feminist.
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I think there is a chronic misunderstanding of what feminism is in our society. So many people have no idea of what it actually represents, and yes, it is different for everybody. My own sister has compared me to white supremacists because she equates feminism with believing women are superior to men. That’s not me, or the great majority of feminists, at all. I don’t think I’ve ever been so hurt or appalled, to see such an important movement likened to such a destructive one. And I agree, Mia – you don’t have to support all women to be a feminist! How ludicrous. I have rules for how I treat other women regardless of what I think of them (I stay away from sexist put-downs and slur words, and I don’t resort to commenting on their body or appearance in a negative light), but there are some women who I won’t ever support, full stop, even if we’re of the same gender!
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I hate hate hate the word feminist. I hate that whenever it is thrown around, a massive fight ensues over who is, who isn’t and what we have to do to be one. Ergh. You know what, I’m human and I happen to be a woman. Thats the only label I want. And before the lynch mob strings me up, this does not mean I dont care about the womens movement, plights, rights, entitlements etc etc. I do, i just don’t think there should be a right way to be a proud woman. And Mia I’m with you, if I don’t like someone, I dont give a rats arse if they are male or female, i would not like them just the same.
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I get where you’re coming from, I really do. It’s such a shame that such an important, meaningful movement/word has been reduced to such awful connotations – like Feminazi! Ugh. I researched feminism extensively last year as part of my post-grad course, and after reading and re-reading tonnes of sources, I can honestly say is that it’s an incredibly diverse movement. It’s evolved so much and continues to do so, and it means so many different things depending on who you ask. There are some unifying traits – like believing in the autonomy/equality of women and distinguishing between sex and gender, but that’s about it… after that, people bring their own meaning to it. That can confuse matters, and some find it frustrating, but I think that’s kind of wonderful, actually! Some of the most fascinating conversations/debates have emerged from huge differences of opinion between feminists, and while those differences have been known to divide women, it’s also united us on many occasions as well.
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Agree 100 percent with Mia. The notion that if you do not automatically agree with every woman’s actions or opinions you are ‘betraying the sisterhood’ is ridiculous. I actually feel sorry for men these days the poor buggers can’t even a door for a woman these days without being accused of squashing a woman’s independence! And for the record, Mia’s article on birthzillas was spot on, stop selfishly banging on about ‘your rights as a woman’ and think of the baby as priority. As a trained health professional the number of interventions that occur in the maternity unit that would have proven catastrophic is mind boggling and very eye opening. Place yourself and your baby in a safe environment and let the next man open a door for you without glaring at him, enough said!
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Was going to comment but you said it all for me. Bravo!
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Yippee Sarah! I agree whole heartedly. In the end, men & women are both just people. Some women are jerks and some men are jerks. I adore some women, I adore some men, and I dislike some of both sex. I do believe both sexes should be treated 100 percent the same, and this hasn’t been achieved (ex: equal pay for the same work). And let’s ditch double standards…do not accept certain behaviors from one sex and chastise it the other sex. And holding doors open? That’s just polite!!
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I am absolutely a feminist. And although I very seldom agree with Mia’s writing, I think this is spot-on. Criticising someone for their actions/attitudes is not the same as being unfeminist or letting the sisterhood down. Not even remotely.
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gosh getting desperate writing columns about your previous columns?? just to stir up some more homebirth emotion – have you considered that women have since time began given birth at home – they always have they always will – so medical lobby groups and columists need to stop fighting it and work on providing better services.
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If people started labelling me a bad feminist, I’d want to write about it. I don’t think Mia ever condemned home births, she said she preferred the sense of security SHE feels in hospitals and discussed the importance of prioritising baby over birth plan.
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Stone Age Mama,
I’m afraid I won’t stop speaking out against the practice of free birthing or home birthing for high risk pregnancies when they end up – according to the coroner – causing the avoidable deaths of babies.
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this subject is completely blown out of all proportion by the media and blogs like this – there were 2 fetal deaths at homebirths in 2009 nationwide (latest Govt figures) yet 6 or 7 babies are dying EVERY DAY in Australian hospitals – who is speaking for them?
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The statisticians, who realise how manipulative those figures are?
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Mia, there are babies who die or get very sick because they were born in a hospital, only it’s not seen that way because it’s complicated and hospitals are the default.
Hypoxic events due to overstimulated uterus due to artificial hormone infusion due dysfunctional labor due to staying in bed due to continuous monitoring… Luckily the doctors are there to save the baby in distress, and it can’t be *proven* that the hospital policies caused the distress in the first place…
Or let’s induce a woman at 38 weeks because it might be a big baby – only maybe her dates were off and her “big” 7lb baby was really more like 36 weeks, and has trouble breathing, and has to be in the NICU, which makes breastfeeding so difficult that formula is needed, which gives him a nasty case of necrotizing enterocolitis. Phew, good thing he was born in a hospital or he might have *died*!
Did I make a tradeoff when I chose homebirth? Yes, I did. But to pretend that by buying wholeheartedly into the medical management of your labor and birth, you did not ALSO make a tradeoff is lying. We both had great outcomes – fabulous! Now please stop calling me a terrible mother.
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Mia – sadly your comment below is not true.
Most fetal deaths in hospital are dealt with by internal inquiries and not referred to the Coroner as a medical practitioner was present so you rarely hear about them unless the families go to the media.
Jessica Lee Stemmer and Thomas William Mahar both suffered brain haemmorrhage due to force applied during a vacuum extraction birth – heard by the same South Australian Coroner Anthony Schapel.
Helenai Serani and Declan McConville are two other babies who tragically died in hospital after vacuum extractions caused fatal injuries/bleeding to their brain.
A baby boy, Jonah Owens born at the John Hunter Hospital in 2008 died two days later from head injuries as a result of forceps being incorrectly placed over his face and the back of his head, a coroner found.
For some reason I am blocked from replying to your post below so am replying here. It is just not as black and white as you make out – there is a perception that a hospital birth is a safe birth and this is not always the case.
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your figures are inaccurate .
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Stats are from Australia’s mothers and babies 2009 report from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare – this is the nineteenth annual report on pregnancy and childbirth in Australia providing national information on women who gave birth and the characteristics and outcomes of their babies.
In 2009, 294,540 women gave birth to 299,220 babies in Australia. There were 285,460 women who gave birth in hospitals, 6,396 women gave birth in birth centres and 863 planned homebirths. There were 2,339 fetal deaths in hospital and other facilities. There were 2 fetal deaths at homebirths. Of babies born at home in 2009, 99.8% were liveborn. There were no maternal deaths at planned homebirths in 2009.
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Hi Stone Age Mama,
The difference is that the babies who died at home could have survived if they were born in a hospital – according to the coroner.
Yet the babies who die in hospital – would not have been saved had they been born without medical support.
Every possible thing was done to help save them. Not so the high risk babies born at home.
Key difference.
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And again stone age mama, I’ll say the same thing that I and many others have already repeated several times before when people throw out these exact same stats:
The number of babies born in hospital includes high risk pregnancies, multiples, addicts, over 35yo+, emergency births (like my own), extremely premature babies (again like my own), etc.
2,339 babies died in hospital or other facilities. However your stats fail to mention how many of those babies fell into one of the groups I listed above. The reason why ardent home birthers don’t feel the need to enquire about the actual number of low risk babies who died in hospital in 2009 is because reality would not serve their purpose: There is a big difference between a “planned homebirth” in a low risk pregnancy and a baby/ies being born in an emergency or high risk circumstance in hospital. Something that the majority of those who support birth claim would prevent them from birthing at home in the first place – hence they’d have a hospital birth anyway.
As for pure mathematics: 2339 deaths is 0.8% of hospital and birth centre births. 2 deaths is 0.2% of home births. The actual numbers don’t prove the point you’re attempting to make when you think about it logically.
Find the number of babies who died in ’09 in hospital under normal circumstances and then you might sway me. Keep in mind though the number will need to be higher than around 1000 – or 43% of those 2339 babies – for the rate to be higher than home births. And I think most of us will agree that 43% of babies are not dying under every day circumstances in hospital regardless of how evil or intervention-crazy some may believe hospital staff to be.
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Childbirth/labour is a traumatic experience for both mother and baby in many cases. I have heard stories re: forceps and vacuum deliveries such as the above. C-section would have had a far better outcome for many mothers, babies and doctors.
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These stats also do not mention which deaths may have been emergency homebirth transfers, so chalking up homebirth deaths to hospital figures. I’m all for transfers, but I thoroughly disagree with skewy stats that represent a story that is inherently false.
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Yes women have been giving birth at home since the beginning, and there has been a approx 15% mortality rate that goes with that. If you want stone age obstetrics go ahead, but accept that you will get stone age mortality rates to go with it. I can’t understand why you wouldnt want your baby to survive (and have its mother survive) as a priority over a one day “experience”. It treats birth like an extreme sport, and is about the mother feeling pleased with herself (and superior) that she’s “achieved” it. Sorry but the risks of home birth are too high for me, as the recent deaths have shown. What a waste of life! All because of some inflexible ideology….
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One of my post grad subjects was feminism. No idea why. Anywho, I most identified with liberal feminism and I think while we may have come a “long way baby”, we still have a long way to go, particularly on an international level.
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Faybian,
Just out of interest – what o you mean on an international level?
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In Australia we have equal rights to men, as opposed to say, Saudi Arabia, where only men attain “suffrage” (adulthood) at 21, amongst other things we take for granted here, that is not available as a choice to women of other cultures.
That’s what I meant.
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Good on you Mia for having an opinion. If people don’t want to hear it they don’t have to read your blog. There is not one single school of thought which defines feminism. And you dont deserve such criticism for speaking out against some women’s choices.
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The real question is why the home birth movement, dedicated as it is to catapulting women back to the medical dark ages, thinks it has a monopoly on feminism. Along with the insistence that pain is good and medical intervention is bad comes the relentless focus on extended breast feeding and attachment parenting, both of which keep women out of the workforce and dependent on a financial provider, be it government or a partner. It’s no wonder so many young women refuse to describe themselves as feminists.
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“catapulting Women back to the dark ages”???? Really??? Remember in the dark ages, it was thought that the foetus travelled around the mothers abdomen freely. Bleeding was a time honored method of dealing with illness, people didn’t believe in washing (in Europe anyway), there was no fetal monitoring or forceps and many women had rickets. Things may be slightly different now. If low risk women and pregnancies are the only ones contemplated for a homebirth, following guidelines, properly thought policies, procedures and work instructions, with appropriate backup plans and timely access to a hospital if need be, then the risks are not much different to hospital births. I think the big thing Is having the choice….and I wouldn’t even be game to attend a home birth.
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Nice one, Ellen. Seen Janet round the shops lately?
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What an incredibly insulting oversimplification of the reasons some women choose homebirth. If you’re being disingenuous, shame on you. If you really think my thought processes involved “Durrr, pain is good, I deserve pain,” I can assure you, it was not.
I believe that I was safer at home from certain negative (to my view) events, and less safe from others. The choice is not clear cut; it was a difficult choice, but in the end I think the right one (easy to say when the uneventful birth has already transpired.) The point is, it was MY choice, only possible because I had well trained and qualified midwives available to me as a feasible option.
It may seem “obvious” to you that the hospital is the only, safest way to have a baby. But imagine for a moment that you don’t know everything there is to know about birth and a woman’s individual circumstances. Ok… Now do you understand why choice and freedom are important?
To put it another way, would you go out car shopping, decide that Car A is the safest, and then declare that all owners of other cars are selfish and irresponsible? I mean, their children could DIE in a CAR CRASH when they might have survived in Car A!
Or would you look at a mother who installed a pool at her house, took reasonable safety precautions, and then her child drowned – and tell her that private pools should be outlawed?
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I’m not arguing about choices. I’m saying that the natural / attachment parenting imperative to keep women at home for birth and a large proportion of their children’s young lives is at odds with my concept of feminism, which sends women proudly into the world and frees them somewhat from the old bonds of home and hearth, and the dangers therein.
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Like x 10000
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So Ellen, I suppose that I, having been university educated and employed full time from graduation until 6 years later when my first child was a year old – I, still, am not freely choosing to stay home? I am suffering the bondage of patriarchy? Funny, my wife seems to have escaped that fate.
But this is far afield of Mia’s original article, which lambasted regular ol’ empowered hospital birthing women who want to – gasp – have their choices about healthcare in birth recorded and respected and find that gee, writing them down and giving them to the staff seems like an effective way to communicate. (The selfish, idiotic divas!)
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I said it was at odds with ‘my’ concept of feminism. I didn’t say it was at odds with yours.
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To elaborate, I think the reason this is so divisive is that the natural birth movement sells itself as the educated choice for empowered women. This automatically implies that to do it in any other way is the uneducated choice for disempowered women. If I am to accept that someone’s home birth was empowering, then they must accept that my decision to get an epidural felt like a great triumph and a big up yours to the crappy position my gender put me in. It’s not natural birth or home birth which bother me, it’s the insistence that they are better.
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I don’t think my birth was better than yours, Ellen. It was better for me. I’m glad you liked your epidural! Really! Especially so if you were aware of the risks they entail. Boy howdy, I love informed consent.
I don’t see how women who have birth plans need to be reviled like Mia did. Are some natural birthers smug about their experience? Surely. I got looked at like I had 3 heads 90% of the time when I mentioned wanting a natural birth myself. Laughed at, condescended to. Oh honey, they said. Take the epidural. You’ll want it. All the drugs. Take all the drugs. You can’t do it.
Well, I did it, and that’s my big Up Yours to them. It was awesome. Me loving my intervention-free birth doesn’t entail judging your medicated one. Me having gone into a hospital with a birth plan neither makes me a smug natural birther nor a selfish, naive diva. I haven’t heard or seen anyone disparaging medical births (except to name real risks) in this whole debacle. But I have heard a lot of disparaging of my side of things, starting with Ms. Freedman.
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Karen,
Your response about knowing about my feelings is at odds with your support for all choices, making out like I (and anyone else who goes for a hospital birth) is somehow uneducated. Get over yourself.
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Hey Karen, I get you! I loved my drug free birth too, it was awesome. Nothing wrong with wanting that.
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This thread has really done my head in. My feminism is about supoprting choices – if women want to breastfeed unitl their child is 6, or nuture attachment with their children, or home birth that really is their choice. More and more women are having ceasarians, have no problem with medical interventions and bottle feeding their babies. Some women prefer to raise their children at home and lobby for child care to be seen and valued work (if not the most valuable work someone can do) – others prefer to have careers and welcome child care, especially in the absence of extended families and free child care should therefore be a right. Feminism supports all these choices in my view. Feminsm does not support degrading other women for their choices or being righteous about your own, especially when the personal is political and what we choose is always connected to our social conditioning and societies’ systems – which we challenge when we see inequity.
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If you want to be taken seriously as a feminist, how about starting by not continually throwing around glib lines essentially reducing women -particularly those who disagree with you – to vaginas with opinions?
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I used to love reading the comments on Mamamia, not any more.
The constant bitching and sniping at the writers and other commenters is so negative. Eevry single article I have read today on MM involves someone making snarky comments at how this site is run.
What does it matter if you don’t agree with how the piece was written or the content? I think people forget this site is not a custom made blog just for you to read. If you think you can do a better job, I suggest you create your own.
Let’s not forget the content here is FREE and of high quality.
Lighten up everyone!
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Here, here!
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Me too. I love this site but some of the comments are getting so nasty it’s depressing. Especially all these ones that keep popping up that say things like, “I’m sorry, but that was terribly written.” Jeez!
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Yes!!! My sentiments exactly. I love this site, but one of the best things used to be sense of community and positivity. Lately there is just so much negativity and rudeness from commenters. Take the hate elsewhere!
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So true. I was thinking the other day that this probably the flipside of increased traffic – sad. Great site but always being hijacked by the haters who seem to want shout down anything Mia writes. I don’t always agree, sometimes I don’t care but as a feminist I think Mia should be able to voice her opinion without wave after wave of abuse/snarky accusations about her authority on the subjects. She’s a writer and opinion maker not a tradition journo.
And it’s her site! Hate it; don’t read it. As feminists or just women you would think they would be more conscious of the gender specific tall-poppy-syndrome that is aimed specifically at successful opinionated women in this country. How about a bit of “I respectfully disagree” rather than “you’re to stupid to understand”… Rant fin
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i am appalled for you mia. this is why i don’t like the word ‘ feminist’. i prefer to call myself ‘logical’. apparently if i am a feminist, i must have taken an oath that said all women are right at all time. girl power!
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