UPDATE: The Queensland Health Minister has released a statement regarding this issue. The full text can be found here.
UPDATE: News Editor Rick Morton just spoke to Festival Executive Director Bill Hauritz about the decision to bring Meryl Dorey into speak.
Q: Does the Festival feel it appropriate to give a platform to a woman who has been officially discredited as any type of vaccination expert?
Bill: Look, I’m not going to get into that. There are a lot of discredited artists and talkers and singers and songwriters at the Festival and we’re about giving a voice to a diverse range … something like 400 artists there.
Q: But surely if a singer/songwriter is discredited, that doesn’t pose a public health risk does it?
Bill: Who says it is dangerous? There are a lot of people out there who believe this whole vaccination thing is not an open and shut case. Is anybody willing to say that all vaccinations are 100% safe?
Q: I don’t think even doctors say that, Bill. Is Meryl billed as an expert for her talk?
Bill: I suppose she would regard herself as an expert, yes. Look, when this issue hit the floor yesterday I typed into Google ‘doctors against vaccinations’ and there are page and pages and pages of results of information. I wonder about the tactics of the science lobby.
Q: Why do you call it a lobby? That seems fairly indicative of your personal views don’t you think?
Bill: I didn’t mean to call it a lobby. I just get wary when people are trying to sell stuff on the Internet.
Q: I don’t think scientists necessarily want to sell anything?
Bill: Look, it doesn’t make a difference. We’ve already entered into contracts with Meryl Dorey and we cannot break those contracts now. We’re 10 days away from opening the gates to the festival. The damage is already done.
Q: Is Meryl Dorey being paid for her appearance?
Bill: I honestly haven’t seen the contracts. I’d say she isn’t.
Q: Can you understand the backlash you have received? You know it isn’t about diverse views. It’s about spruiking information that has been officially debunked. Do you understand the issue many have with Dorey is that she is not a statistician, a researcher, a scientist and has no level of expertise as found by the Health Care Complaints Commission which ordered her to be upfront about her anti-vaccination stance?
Bill: Everyone has a right to their opinion.
Q: But surely not to their own facts? Are you worried people will boycott the festival now?
Bill: Let them, they have every right to.
The Woodford Folk Festival sounds like a quaint, fringe music festival. It’s not. With more than 130,000 people attending the 2010/2011 event in Queensland it is one of the largest cultural events of its kind in Australia. Which makes it all the more troubling known anti-vaccine campaigner Meryl Dorey has been invited – again – to speak there. Mamamia finds it troubling because of this post we ran debunking the most common vaccination myths, the ones that Dorey and her misleadingly titled Australian Vaccination Network continue to willfully propagate. It’s one of the most popular posts we have ever run on the site. So while Dorey has been given a platform to speak, despite having been discredited by major health agencies, it is a platform paid for by major sponsors. Including the local council and Queensland Government. So, why? Peter Bowditch writes…..
In 2010, Meryl Dorey, once (and maybe still) President of the Australian Vaccination Network, appeared as a speaker at the Woodford Folk Festival in Queensland. I wondered at the time why a festival devoted to community spirit and enjoyment should provide a platform for someone to preach a philosophy that can only cause harm to children, and I wrote to the organisers with my concern.
I didn’t receive an answer, but Ms Dorey wasn’t pleased that I had written and in her usual ‘just missing the truth’ style she claimed that I had asked them not to let her speak. I had done nothing of the sort, just said that I didn’t think that what she would inevitably say was the sort of thing I would expect to hear at a folk festival. She can say what she likes where she lies as long as people are aware of her agenda.
She didn’t appear at the 2011 festival, but she is booked in to give two talks at the 2012 event in January. I suppose this means the festival organisers aren’t concerned about her message, and the presence of various other practitioners of weird science and ideas on the same stage just confirms this impression. I have no idea why anyone would associate folk music with the sort of things one would expect to see at a Mind Body Spirit Festival or even why there would be an overlap of audiences, but maybe things have changed since my Kings Cross troubadour days. Or, as someone once said, the answers are blowing in the wind.
What makes this Woodford Festival a little different is the range of event sponsors whom you would think would run away very quickly from any association with anyone opposing vaccination. And make no mistake, for all Ms Dorey’s claims that she is not opposed to vaccination and just wants it to be safe she has never once in the more than a decade I’ve been dealing with her ever allowed that any vaccine is either safe or beneficial. She is not opposed to vaccines provided that they are never given to any person of any age to protect against any disease.
She has described measles (the disease which has killed more children than any other in the history of the world) as “benign;” she suggested the slogan “Shaken Maybe Syndrome” as a way of implying that Shaken Baby Syndrome does not exist but is always damage caused by vaccines; she provided strong support to a man imprisoned in the US for the murder of a ten-week-old boy, her support being based on the idea that the dreadful injuries to the child had to be the effects of a vaccine, not the actions of a violent man; she is on record as an AIDS denier; she said on television that “whooping cough didn’t kill us thirty years ago and it’s not kill anybody today”. If she isn’t implacably opposed to vaccinations then she hides any other position well.
In 2009 the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission took the unprecedented step of issuing a public warning about Ms Dorey and the AVN. This followed her refusal to agree to a request to display a notice on the AVN’s web site saying that the organisation did not give medical advice, that it was opposed to vaccination, and that parents should get advice about vaccination from a competent medical practitioner. Ms Dorey is currently taking the HCCC to court over the matter. She needs to do this because the NSW Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing has withdrawn the AVN’s charity status and banned them from recruiting new members or accepting donations. The OLG&R took the HCCC’s public warning into account when making its rulings.
But back to the sponsors of the Woodford Folk Festival. One significant sponsor is the local Moreton Bay Regional Council. The Council has quite clear policies supporting vaccination and other public health initiatives, and Ms Dorey’s message is diametrically opposed to these. In fact, if too many locals listen to her and believe what she says then the Council’s public health activities could be severely undermined.
Another sponsor is the local ABC radio station. I know for a fact that the ABC has been told about Ms Dorey and her activities, so it is doubly distressing to see public money contributing to giving her a platform to spread harmful misinformation. The Queensland Government is also a sponsor, and again public money is being spent to encourage ideas which are in direct contradiction to the vaccination programs and policies of a government.
I don’t want Ms Dorey silenced (to want that would be to follow the “principles” that she applies to any public forum that she controls, where the slightest dissent results in banning). I just want people to know that she is not a reliable authority on matters of public health and vaccination. She can say what she likes as long as others can point to her and say “Dangerous, uninformed, unscientific nonsense”.
If you doubt the terrible consequences of a lack of vaccination, take the time watch Mia’s heartbreaking interview with Toni and Dave McCaffrey whose daughter Dana died as a result of whooping cough. She lived in one of the least vaccinated areas in the country. The interview starts at 12:52.
If you are concerned by this turn of events, you can email the Woodford Folk Festival organisers on qff@woodfordfolkfestival.com or leave a message on their FB Wall here, email Moreton Bay Regional Council here or email the Queensland Government here.
Peter Bowditch has been around skepticism and rational thinking for many years. He writes for several skeptical and scientific publications and runs the web site at www.ratbags.com which features the weekly Millenium Project online magazine and Radio Ratbags podcast. In real life he is married with two daughters, lives in the Blue Mountains and pays the bills by being an IT consultant and TAFE teacher.









Comments
1,842 Comments so far
Videos like these are the main reason why I do not own nor watch TV anymore.. there are a lot of people that are very open and outspoken ..
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I understand the benefits of vaccines – but can anyone explain the point of generic spam comments, like the one above, that carry no link or advertising message?
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There isn’t any specific meaning in regards to the Scorpion. This vivid and also humorous scorpion is created simply by blue enameled surface as well as dark dime hardware. There may be the Gucci logo design around the clasp bottom. I guess the scorpion buckle may be the soul and also essence with this custom belt. This dark leather-based gear measures 1.6 inches broad and is offered by an amount associated with $325.00. Before purchasing this type of stylish belt, you have to determine his size. Measure on the waist regarding his pants and size-up 1-2 sizes. Now this kind of buckle is actually offered by an entire selection of sizes.
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If you want mercury, formaldehyde, liquified animal organs and the tissue culture of aborted fetuses injected into you or your family then by all means be my guest but don’t ignore the growing opposition to the horror stories emerging regarding the use of vaccines. It has been proven that vaccinated people are almost always the vectors for the diseases they target but ultimately if they work then you have nothing to fear right?
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Yeah – citations thanks mate.
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Yeah – about the aborted fetus shrieking – cell lines are self-sustaining and are not the end therapeutic product. No human cells are actually present in the vaccine, and no abortions are conducted specifically for the purpose of harvesting cell lines.
The end result is so removed from the cell culture it’s also a bit like saying because fruit is grown on trees that have roots in soil fertilised with manure then eating the fruit itself is eating dirt and poo.
An this constant focus on the foetal cell lines is really bizarre as tissue cultures are used in medicine all the time. Think of burns patients. Or patients with grafts from corpses. Or filled with the blood of donors.
Anti-vaxxers do such a great job of flaunting their ignorance – this is easy!!
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Thanks for your post. I have usually observed that many people are eager to lose weight simply because they wish to appear slim as well as attractive. Nevertheless, they do not usually realize that there are other benefits to losing weight also. Doctors claim that overweight people are afflicted by a variety of illnesses that can be directly attributed to their excess weight. The good thing is that people who are overweight as well as suffering from numerous diseases can reduce the severity of their illnesses through losing weight. You’ll be able to see a steady but marked improvement in health when even a minor amount of weight reduction is accomplished.
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What are people’s thoughts on this study reported by Reuters? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-whoopingcough-idUSBRE8320TM20120403
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The DTaP vaccines were introduced to reduce the higher incidence of febrile responses that the old whole-cell DTP vaccines were known for.
This study confirmed what experts have suspected – that the current, milder forms of pertussis vaccines most likely require more frequent boosters, since immunity induced by the vaccine fades more quickly. I expect the frequency of boosters will be assessed and the recommended schedules will be tweaked on the basis of this and further analysis.
On the cusp of winter, the resurrection of this topic is as good an opportunity as ever to remind everyone that unvaccinated children are 23 times more likely to get pertussis than vaccinated children,
http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/123/6/1446.full.pdf+html
so thanks for reviving the discussion Leigh.
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An absolutely stellar analysis of the current status of pertussis vaccine research:
http://lymphosite.wordpress.com/2012/04/08/b_pertussis/
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I can say that minkyu is so cool. Thanks for the helpful post.
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Ok. So you say Meryl is lying and misleading us for suggesting that there is a 95% vaccination rate.
If that is the truth for young children, than that is the truth for young children.
But, what I would like to know is the incidences of whooping cough amongst adults comapred to children. Has anyone got those facts?
So has anyone got those facts?
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Just wondering what people think of this video. Is this doctor a nutcase or a conspiracy theorist, do you think? Does what she say make any sense? http://goo.gl/qrbg8
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Sherri Tenpenny is an infamous anti-vaccine activist whose website, book (Saying No To Vaccines), book blog, and blog are chock full of vaccine pseudoscience.
http://scientopia.org/blogs/whitecoatunderground/2009/12/30/damned-lies-and-idiots/
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If Meryl really has 20 years of research, if she really does just want to present the “truth” , if she is really pro choice and not anti vaccine why does she persist in using the 95% immunization rate for pertussis lie.
She has had this in accuracy pointed out to her a multitude of times. Yet she still trots out this falsehood.
She is deliberately distorting the statistics to present an anti vaccination case. A case not supported by the very statistics she uses (distorts).
Why would she do this unless she has an anti vaccination agenda?
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Hey Martin, if there is not a 95% vaccination rate for pertussis, what is the correct figure? Thanks.
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Leigh – it’s been explained elsewhere to you. Meryl says 95% immunisation for pertussis, when this is actually 95% of young kids. The overall rate is lower because pertussis immunity wanes.
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So whats your point? She is still telling the truth.
I want to know the proportion of adults getting whooping cough compared to children.
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Depends on the age group. It is as high as 95% for some ages and very low for others. There is also the fact that immunity wanes. So for instance if you picked the over 50 age group you would find quite a few not immunized ever, and most would have waning immunity even if they had been previously immunized.
What it does mean is that Meryl is misrepresenting the facts in a way to try and show that vaccines do not work. When the reality is the risks and benefits of the pertussis vaccine is known. The vaccine works with reasonable efficacy, very rare adverse events, but does not provide life long immunity.
If more teens and adults were immunized then we would see less infant deaths. Meryl Dorey actively campaigns against this vaccination to the detriment of our youngest.
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Thanks for that info Martin. Makes sense.
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Thanks Jane. What Andy said about it was: “Apparently CSL screwed up the flu vaccine but….” and then completely ignores that rather large elephant in the room in order to continue attacking Meryl.
What’s the elephant? They screwed it up! Plain and simple. Does anyone here want to pretend the pharmco DIDN’T screw it up? They can, and do, screw things up.
They did not conduct clinical trials before administering the vaccines and it wasn’t just Saba that suffered. Did you read the article? It mentions many more reactions (this is not the only article Bita wrote BTW, it’s a series that is well worth checking out).
Think what you like about Meryl (I don’t believe everything she says BTW), the issue at hand is that we need to face facts that vaccines do cause reactions which often go unreported, and drug companies, so-called experts, doctors and the government don’t always get it right (of course a lot of the time they DO get it right, too).
For me, the salient point in that Bita article was Collignon saying this: “There’s been a lot of pressure on me. Like a lot of medical people, I believe vaccines are terrific – but it has come to the situation where it’s almost like motherhood, that you cannot question it, especially in the public arena, for fear you’ll undermine the vaccination program.”
And there you have it. Yes, vaccination can and has been a good thing in many circumstances. But it is often a dreadful thing for those who suffer reactions (and it’s not as rare as you think….the statistics are inaccurate).
The main problem, as I see it, is this complete refusal to question it and labelling of anyone who does question it as dangerous, a pariah, flaky, conspiracy theorists, Holocaust deniers, hippies, idiots, selfish and all the other names I’ve seen hurled around this forum at anyone who has dared to question the safety and efficacy of vaccination.
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Who has denied there wasn’t a problem with that vaccine? Who has denied their should not be action taken?
No one.
Who is using this tragedy to falsely promote the anti vaccination propaganda.
The AVN.
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Your complaint seems to be that the relative risks and risk benefit ratios are not accurate. Yet you provide no evidence that this is true. It is a statement without evidence, and worse has much contrary evidence. Vaccines are about the most studied of all medical treatments.
So it boild down to a supposed conspiracy theory. The drug companies are lying.
Which is interesting because what we do know for a fact, and have evidence for, is that Meryl *does* in actual fact distort the truth. This has been demonstrated multiple times and was a finding of the HCCC.
So yes do your research. But don’t use the AVN if you want the actual facts of the matter.
The actual know relative risks of vaccination are published by several government departments, the UN and a multitude of research institutions. Unless of course you think there is a world wide conspiracy involving thousands of researchers.
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That’s right Martin, I am concerned about the risk/benefit ratio.
If every doctor reported every reaction to a vaccine accurately, then those government departments, the UN and research organisations would have accurate information. But they don’t.
If anyone did any research whatsoever into the long-term effect on our immune systems of vaccination, then we’d have another measure of the risk/benefit ration. But they haven’t to my knowledge.
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So you just “think” it is worse? You don’t actually have any evidence? You just assume all those doctors are lying. Vaccines are among the most studied of all medical interventions. There is an abundance of data, but you are worried it isn’t enough?
Riiiight. Good way to make decisions.
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I don’t assume all doctors are lying. I just wonder how many of them actually attribute a health issue that occurs after a vaccination to the actual vaccination, and how many say “it would have happened anyway” and it has nothing to do with the vaccine. How do they actually KNOW whether it’s a reaction to a vaccine or not, and if they can’t know for sure, then how can they report it correctly?
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Because Drs and scientists know that correlation does not equal causation.
Drs base their professional opinion on the overwhelming statistical evidence already generated after observational studies on thousand upon thousand of vaccinated individuals in the past!
It is easy to generate fear based upon anecdotes of individual cases of bad outcomes after receiving the vaccine,
because we are hard wired to find these events compelling. Because we are more moved by stories than statistics.
But , however compelling, they make for very weak scientific evidence. This is not to say they are worthless – even a single case can raise the question of a possible correlation. (And, as mentioned several times already, Dr’s are required to report reactions, and there are penalties if they don’t.)
But they cannot be used to establish that a correlation is real.
This is the first step – To determine if Event A caused Disease B, we need to investigate whether it satisfies Hill’s Criteria. These are 9 criteria, most of which much be satisfied before we can conclude that Event A is not merely correlated with Disease B, but Event A actually causes Disease B.
Continue readiing that very good explanation of correlation vs causation with respect to vaccines and autism here:
http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2011/02/if-correlation-is-not-causation-what-is.html
Scientists and statistically based evidence is around for a reason. The statistics are complicated to the layman. No, it cannot be explained to the average person in a few paragraphs. It is, however the only way hard evidence for correlation vs causation can ever be established. And scientists work bloody hard at it.
Anecdotes are not data. Anecdotes only give you questions. Statistical studies give plausible answers.
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Thanks Jane I’ll check out that link.
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Jane, is it a legal requirement that doctors use Hills Criteria every time they report a vaccine reaction?
If it’s not a legal requirement to use Hills criteria, is it then left up to the individual doctor to make a judgement call on causation?
I don’t doubt that scientists work hard on this stuff, but just because something is a ‘statistic’ does not mean it’s infallible.
I wonder what the statistics on death and injury from flu vaccines was before CSL’s botch up. I bet they said it was really safe and reactions were very rare.
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“Surveillance for adverse events following immunisation is an integral part of a national vaccination program. Under the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995, all WA medical officers are required to report any adverse events of concern to the Department of Health, providing a full description of the reaction to the vaccine (adverse event). This enables the Department of Health to identify new and unexpected AEFI and respond accordingly.
http://www.health.wa.gov.au/vaccination/#surveillance
The doctor is required to report the reaction.
THe reporting goes to somewhere like (her in WA for instance)
Western Australian Vaccine Safety Surveillance (WAVSS)
www . health.wa.gov.au/vaccination/wavss.cfm
Please check out the the above link – it is a very informative site on reporting of vaccine reactions.
“Should all AEFIs be reported?
Any significant event following immunisation should be reported.
You do not need to report common minor reactions.
Any vaccine reaction which requires assessment by a doctor or nurse, or which has affected a family’s confidence in future immunisation should be reported. ”
“How will AEFIs be reported to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA)?
Medical practitioners in WA have a statutory requirement to notify events after immunisation to the WA Department of Health as specified in Regulation 4 of the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995. All AEFIs will be reported to the TGA by WAVSS staff”
THe Hills criteria does not need to be applied by every doctor as followup investgation is where the criteria come in and will be applied by WAVVS in order to establsih whether there is a causal relationship of the reported adverse reaction to the vaccination.
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“I wonder what the statistics on death and injury from flu vaccines was before CSL’s botch up. I bet they said it was really safe and reactions were very rare.”
You should maybe do less “daring” and “betting” and, if you’re genuinely interested, more actual research.
But I’m not aware of any deaths related to the CSL botch up. Are you?
As for injury, if you have evidence that the botch up was something other than unusual, please provide the evidence. Otherwise, can we agree that it was, and is, most likely very safe?
To me it looks like the reporting system worked in regards to CSL (it was news around the country), albeit imperfectly and perhaps too slowly. But no one’s arguing the system is perfect.
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CSL behaved appallingly – no argument there. THey were called out on it. It was discovered. Companies cannot cover up these things – clearly they get found out. THe vaccine was pulled for the under-5′s. What more evidence of action following adverse reaction do you want?
No one has ever or can ever say that vaccines are 100% safe. THe possible adverse reactions are laid out quite clearly on package inserts. I’d love to know your source for claiming ” it’s not as rare as you think….the statistics are inaccurate” Really? Enlighten me please. You say “we need to face facts that vaccines do cause reactions which often go unreported,” Really? What facts? Where have you discovered these facts regarding unreported reactions?
High temperatures are listed a known side effect for some in vaccines.
Vaccines do not cause febrile seizures, fevers in susceptible individuals do.
A febrile seizure is a reaction by certain individuals to high temperatures.
If a child has a tendancy for febrile seizure during a fever, imagine what would happen when that child gets influenza – symptoms of which are high fevers! I’ve seen it for myself – I nursed my 3 children plus myself thru swine flu in 2009, with days and days of temperatures heading to 40 degC.
“Febrile convulsions in young children are well recognised in the setting of various viral infections, with rates estimated to be as high as at between 10 to 20% in children hospitalised with influenza”
“Seizures are the most common neurologic complication experienced by children hospitalized with influenza.”
Febrile convulsions are also a rare but recognised adverse event following immunisation (AEFI), and have been reported in influenza vaccine post-marketing data at a rate between 1/10,000 and 1/1000 doses, as well as in association with DTPa, Hib and poliomyelitis vaccines.
(2.Newland JG et al. (2007) Neurologic complications in children hospitalized with influenza: characteristics, incidence, and risk factors. J Pediatr 150:306-310.)
You say “drug companies, so-called experts, doctors and the government don’t always get it right (of course a lot of the time they DO get it right, too)”.
The cocoon of hindsight is a comfy place to be. Health authorities were dealing with a possible deadly pandemic. What is the other scenario? How many dead and disabled children then? Your cited Australian article says it “Fifteen children under the age of 15 died of swine flu in 2009.”
How many parents would have been baying for the blood of the Govt that seemingly took its time with developing a Flu vaccination if their children had died from H1N1? The Health Department released the vaccine in good faith – it is CSL that dropped the ball here, with a tragic outcome for Saba. No coverup. No conspiracy.
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“Companies cannot cover these things up”. Really?
Companies can and do cover things up. All the time. The lucky ones don’t get found out. The unlucky ones do, but sometimes not until years down the track.
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If they have covered it up so successfully, how do you know about it? And have you reported it? If not, are you a part of the problem?
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Sigh, I was referring to drug companies. Show me an example of something being covered up in the pharmaceutical industry that has been found out years later. Please. The only related cover-up that comes to mind is Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulant MMR/autism study.
I guess – it’s a bit like the AVN covering up the fact that they cannot account for $300 000….oh, that’s right, found out.
You keep changing directions in this argument ( no acknowledgement of the made-up 95% number by dorey, nor of the Wakefield suit that you started your spiel with, I notice)
And you wonder why you are getting lumped in with the cranks when you can’t rebutt any of it with evidence. Brian Deer is a journalist and he managed to uncover Wakefield’s fraud, with proof and evidence. So off you go, flex your journalistic chops and get your proof that pharmaceutical companies and the govt and every associated public servant, medico, lab assistant, – gosh there’s LOTS of potential whistleblowers, shouldn’t take you long – and uncover the fraud, Leigh.
And a tip – if you start looking via the AVN – yr doin’ it wrong.
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Jane, I think it took about four years for the horrific effects of thalidomide to be uncovered and the drug to be taken off the market. That’s one example.
I haven’t changed direction at all, just bringing in new arguments.
I didn’t realise Meryl had “made up” the 95% statistic. Obviously that doesn’t help anyone.
Regarding Andrew Wakefield, I’ll wait and see what the outcome of his lawsuit is before making any judgements about him. It wouldn’t be the first time authorities/big business set out to destroy the reputation of a whisteblower though, would it?
I acknowledge there are problems with the AVN and Meryl.
My main point is, as I stated above, that doctors dont’ report vaccination reactions accurately. There’s a culture of fear (as evidenced by the Bita articles in the Australian) about speaking out against vaccination. I think this is a dangerous state of affairs.
My other point is that we have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by vaccination because no-one has studied it.
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So, in 1961, they pulled a drug issued three years beforehand. 50 years ago. Srsly?
(Actually, Thalidomide is currently licensed in Europe to treat newly diagnosed myeloma.)
Anything more recent? In this age of mobile phones, and internet and email – it gets harder and harder to cover up the really bad stuff – if the President of the USA couldn’t even cover up a BJ from an office girl ….but I digress – in medicine more than anything. THe proof is in the “victims”. Real victims of vaccine reactions are spotlighted and howled about from every media outlet. Very very few, you’ll notice. Vaccines could not be doled out if there was really the number of adverse effects the antivaxxers would have you believe. The system is scrutinised. Unlike the business of alternative medicine – Penny Dingle anyone? Accountibility anyone?
Would you like to elaborate with all your expertise on how the immune system works as to how long a study would be sufficient? A 50-year long term study done on each vaccine Leigh? Each antibiotic? The efficacy of each material made in every skyscraper? The 50 year risk of sitting staring at your computer for half a day?
Smallpox is eliminated around the globe. 1800 – 1974. Long enough – oops – all the people vaccinated prior to 1912 are dead!!! Did the vaccine cause it? Or did they live long happy (smallpox-free) lives – we’ll never know…..Give me a break.
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“I haven’t changed direction at all, just bringing in new arguments.”
Without addressing the old ones.
Look up the term “Gish Gallop” if you aren’t already familiar with it.
And if you think the AVN/Dorey have issues, stop referencing them as a credible source.
“My other point is that we have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by vaccination because no-one has studied it.”
We have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by ham sandwiches because no-one has studied it.
We have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by internet use because no-one has studied it.
We have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by chiropractic because no-one has studied it.
We have no way of knowing what long-term effect on the immune system or secondary side effects are being caused by homeopathy because no-one has studied it.
What long-term effects do you think are being missed? Other than the cries of groups like AVN, do you have reason to assume these effects are caused by vaccination and not, say, electronic goods, sanitation or internal combustion engines?
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Pop off to uni then, take 10 years and get yourself a degree, plus honours and PhD, post grad, take another 10 years researching Leigh and then you’ll be somewhere in the vicinity of having the recognised ability to organise and understand the requirements of undertaking the study yourself.
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Almost everything said above is incorrect.
Thalidomide wasn’t a cover up. It was a mistake, but nobody tried to cover it up.
There is no fear in reporting adverse events. Quite the opposite. Adverse event reporting is mandatory and there are penalties for not doing so.
Long term use of vaccination has lead to a wealth of data from epidemiological studies, plus other long term population based studies.
The risks are well known and are small. There is no scientific debate about this. The only ones saying there is a debate are the cranks like Meryl who simply tell lies and distort the facts to promote their own anti vax agenda (an agenda in which she has a financial interest in seeing continue).
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I really hate this argument. It seems to be never ending.
Anywho, I’ve given vaccines for years and have no fear about reporting them. Once a patient is ok, the paper work is the only pain. Oh, I’ve done it once btw.
In general most reactions would occur within 15 minutes. Those ones are pretty easy to “prove”. Side effects are things like fevers etc. vaccines causing disease? Much harder to prove a solid link.
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The Bita article said ‘Professor Collignon realises he is “in the bad books” over his criticisms of flu vaccination. “I’ve had people ring me from various sources and various levels of government to make it very clear I would be responsible for the deaths of large numbers of people if I kept on talking to the media,” he says. “There’s been a lot of pressure on me.’
I find it scary that a Professor would be pressured by various levels of government not to talk to the media, or that he would be “in the bad books” for speaking out against a dangerous vaccine.
It’s very clear there is not an open debate about vaccination going on, or remotely accurate statistics about their reactions, because there is a culture of fear in medical circles. Fear of law suits and fear of telling the truth in case government departments come down hard on them.
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“Asthma can be hard to diagnose, especially in children younger than 5 years of age.” (Source:http://www.cdc.gov/asthma/faqs.htm)
Dr Collignon from the Australian article:
“Citing data from NSW Health, he has found that the risk of a healthy child or teenager dying from swine flu in 2009, before a vaccine was available, was less than one in two million for those without underlying health problems such as asthma or heart disease”
So what about all the under 5′s who have an undiagnosed asthma, increasing susceptibility to influenza complications.
The death rate may not be high – but what about the hospitalization rate? Does that not count?
I thank goodness none of my family had underlying asthma problems – my son and I both ended up in the ER with bronchitis hot on the heels of the swine flu, and that was debilitating enough without throwing asthma into the mix.
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Jane and Andy, neither of you have addressed the culture of fear, with doctors being unable to accurately report vaccine reactions in case the powers that be come down hard upon them.
You have both resorted to ad hominem attacks and patronising language (rife on this forum towards anyone questioning vaccination) so I’m not wasting my time here anymore.
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Neither have you, apart from one reference to one Dr in the Australian article.
“You’re being meee-eean” Typical, and manages to avoid providing examples of the issues YOU brought up. Stick to the softer side of journalism if you can’t handle supporting the arguments YOU raise.
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Your personal attacks are getting rather predictable Jane (yawn yawn). I’m not writing as a journalist here (obviously), just a concerned citizen. Most of what I’ve written has been personal opinion — people are actually entitled to that, believe it or not. I don’t profess to be an expert, just a punter who has unanswered questions on this issue.
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Opinion is worthless unless it is groundable in fact, oriented towards a search for truth, and accountable to reason.
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In that case Jane, what are you doing on Mamamia? Most of the content on this site is opinion.
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Such a red herring, really. We run both opinion and news. And facts. On the case of vaccines, nothing but facts.
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Counteracting misleading and potentially dangerous opinions masquarading as facts on this particular thread.
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I remind you, again, this article was not about CSL, or the known risks of vaccination. It was about Meryl Dorey speaking at Woodford.
And I most certainly did address “the culture of fear.” I think I made it pretty clear that telling people vaccines are used by lizard people to implant micro-chips with a view to committing genocide is silly and people who do it should not be given a platform to spread their nonsense.
You never addressed that point though.
We all made it clear that scaring people about pertussis vaccines by misinforming them about relative rates of vaccination and infection was also poor form.
Or is this not the culture of fear that concerns you?
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Thanks for that clarification, Rick. It seems to me it’s nothing but facts concerning vaccination — as long as they are facts that don’t question the safety and efficacy of vaccination.
Why don’t you ask Professor Collignon to write a post for Mamamia on how he was pressured not to reveal his fears about the flu vaccine to the media?
And Andy, you’re right, it was originally about Meryl speaking at Woodford. It has morphed to a wider debate.
The culture of fear you describe does concern me, as does the one that prevents doctors from accurately reporting vaccine reactions.
Does that one concern you at all?
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I’ve not read up on Prof. Collignon, but how does his story invalidate the time-and-again proven results of vaccines, as evidenced by this story today about India going a whole year without a case of polio thanks to an extensive vaccination program: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/missing-daniel-okeeffe-might-be-in-queensland-the-ghetto-avoid-app/
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“Does that one concern you at all?”
I don’t know enough about it but yes, based on the reports, it concerns me. But it doesn’t surprise me. Although we take people like Meryl to task for spreading conspiracy theory, few of us on this side (I’m sure) think Big Pharma is beyond reproach or that there’s no room for improvement. But it’s a long way from that to “vaccines don’t do any good, they only do harm and Big Pharma actually wants to make you sick”, which is the central message of the anti-vax lobby.
I do appreciate that your tone here differs from Meryl’s but I must also note that the “I’m just asking questions” argument is often used as a means to slur rather than a means of enquiry. And it would be better if you just asked the questions.
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Prof Collignon has been speaking quite freely about his concerns.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/05/31/why-we-need-better-data-on-flu-vaccines-in-children/
No one is stopping him from saying anything he likes.
Interesting to note his pre-swine flu quotes:
“The organisms we vaccinate against are a relatively small slice of microbial life in the throat, and immunisation has proven extremely efficient at combating serious diseases they cause.”
‘there is not even the planning in our hospitals to cope with the increase in influenza cases every winter’ (2005)
Regarding making plans for vaccines (bird flu)
“The risk of directly contracting the virus is low, and the chance that it mutates to become transmissible between people is small, maybe a 10% chance over five years. But that’s not to say the risk is zero. If this does happen, we need to have safe vaccine programs in place”(March 2006)
He also seems to have the benefit of hindsight regarding his fluvax comments..
though strangely not addressing the fact that the adverse reactions happened only in WA, not any of the other states. Why didn’t eastern states children succumb to the fevers at the rate of WA children if the vaccine was one and the same?
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There is no culture of fear. Even the article doesn’t say there is fear of reporting to medical authorities adverse events. The article talks about doctors wanting him to be cautious about talking to the media. This is completely different.
Safety reporting in medicine is much like safety reporting in aviation. It can be done confidentially, it cannot be used in prosecution against the individual, it is positively encouraged, and in fact is mandatory in some circumstances.
This culture of fear just doesn’t exist. It is a fallacious argument. Basically every issue you have supposedly put forth as some smoking gun is a complete red herring.
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Thanks for the story about polio vaccinations in India Rick. That’s a great result.
Just further to your statement that Mamamia reports opinion, news and facts. If you wanted to give balanced coverage of the vaccination issue you could run a story on a family that has lost a child or had a brain damaged child due to a vaccine reaction.
Perhaps Mia could interview such a family, like she interviewed the family from Lismore, and the camera could do close-ups of their tears as well, like they did with the Cosmo editor.
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It’s a fair question on the face of it Leigh. I’m sure mamamia could do a story on every conceivable means by which children have died. But, beyond the tugging of the heartstrings, what would be the motivation?
You do realise, still, that you’re effectively comparing death/injury caused by wearing a seat belt with death/injury caused by not wearing one, don’t you?
And you’re asking for more focus to be given to those cases where seat belts were the problem, not the solution. But to what end?
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Andy, the objective would be balance. There’s a reason Natasha Bita won a Walkely award for her articles. One reason is that they were very well balanced stories.
Comparing vaccination to wearing a seatbelt seems to make sense at first. But if you think about it more, it’s not really a logical comparison.
For one, injury from a seatbelt is external and would be a one-off incident in the case of an accident occurring (multiple causes are possible).
Injury from vaccination can be ongoing, and is due to what is contained in a vaccine and how a person responds to it on an internal level.
I can see the comparison though in that sometimes a crash is due to driver error and sometimes a vaccine reaction is due to driver error (CSL and the flu vaccine is a case in point).
The main difference though, is that crash investigators can ascertain injury caused by seatbelts without much doubt, whereas it is a lot more complicated to accurately diagnose a vaccine reaction.
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The point of the comparison was, coincidentally, to illustrate the problem with “balance”.
Millions of lives are saved and injuries avoided through the use of seat belts while it’s likely just hundreds of deaths and serious, chronic injuries (I’m not sure why you think they’d be short term, superficial or once-only) are caused by them.
If we report on one fatality supposedly caused by vaccination then, in order to maintain balance, we would surely need to report, complete with tears, every single death from disease – thousands of them around the wold every year.
Giving unequal things equal treatment is not balance.
And, for the record, the Saba Button tragedy was widely reported as was the case of the death of a child that appeared, initially, to be related to the CSL botch up.
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If it is about balance would there be hundreds of thousands stories show children dieting from vaccine preventable diseases (worldwide), and a handful showing children harmed by vaccines (deaths are rare to non existent).
Surely balance means providing real balance? Or do you want to needlessly scare people out of vaccinating?
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And, in the interests of balance, you would also need to report – complete with 30 seconds of tears – the hundreds of thousands of children vaccinated without any serious problems. This balance thing is tricky, no?
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OK fair enough re the balance thing, thanks.
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Leigh,
Thank you. You have restored my glimmer of hope.
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They are not pressuring him to cover up, or not report adverse events. They are saying, quite rightly, that after these events there is often a disproportionate reaction that leads to lower immunization rates, and people die. They are saying to temper the media reporting with some facts to avoid unnecessary deaths and or morbidity because groups like the AVN will use this as a scare tactic.
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Except he used ominous terms like “in the bad books”. And he WAS reporting facts.
I appreciate your comments Martin and I’ll take them on board. As I said earlier, I’m no expert, but I do still have unanswered questions.
One of them is that of accurate reporting. I know people who have had doctors say to them that a reaction was probably from a vaccine but they would not be prepared to put it in writing (it was just off the record).
To me, that says either they’re not sure whether an adverse health issue is actually caused by the vaccine, or they suspect it is but don’t want to report it for whatever reason.
What’s the protocol for doctor’s reporting a reaction? Is there a time frame in which a health issue needs to emerge in order to be able to be attributed to a vaccine?
I also have a question re the herd immunity argument. How can herd immunity work when there is a percentage of the population that does not actually receive immunity from vaccination, and another percentage of the population that is told by doctors not to continue vaccination after a serious reaction. (This happened to a close friend after her son broke out in head to toe eczcema immediate after his first vaccination, and was told by the doctor not to give any more vaccinations to her child.)
I’m sorry if some of my opinions have come across as unfounded. I am not anti-vaccination. I do believe it works in many circumstances. I’m just not convinced vaccination is as safe as most people on this forum seem to believe.
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A good explanation about the percentages required to achieve good herd immunity:
http://science-at-home.org/how-herd-immunity-works/
This is a great little animation that illustrates different scenarios regarding herd immunity. Herd immunity works even when less than 100% are vaccinated, so if everyone is vaccinated, then the minority that cant, or wont develop immunity are still protected.
http://welshandgrumpy.me/toys/herd.php?scenario=intro
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The evidence is there on safety and efficacy. You have a conspiracy theory mixed in with a bit of gut feeling.
I tend to go with the evidence.
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“Thanks Jane. What Andy said about it was: “Apparently CSL screwed up the flu vaccine but….” and then completely ignores that rather large elephant in the room in order to continue attacking Meryl.”
You can throw in all the red herrings you want – and they can be very genuine and worthy issues – but this mamamia article is about Meryl’s contribution to our knowledge about vaccination. That’s why I brought it back to Meryl.
Simply put, if Merck or CSL were to add nuclear waste to their vaccines tomorrow, Meryl’s past tirades about autism and micro-chips and genocide and her complete misrepresentations of scientific data would still be worthy of condemnation.
If she came out just once and said, like you have, that vaccinations do have a benefit, then the “debate” would be different. But she repeatedly describes them as ineffective whenever she finds any examples of where they have failed in some individuals. I’m sorry but that is like saying seat belts don’t work because we still have a road toll – and therefore people should consider not wearing them until they are proven effective through double-blind, cross-over, placebo controlled trials.
It’s dangerous nonsense and needs to be called out as such.
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I already mentioned Natasha Bita winning a Walkely Award for her series of stories on vaccination in The Australian (not Natural News or Mercola folks, but THE AUSTRALIAN). It seems people have ignored it. So for those of you who are *actually* interested in the truth and researching this issue thoroughly (which means taking a look at all sides of the debate) read this. Go on, I dare you:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/virus-in-the-system/story-e6frg8h6-1226063484330
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Someone else has said it more eloquantly than I can:
“The day The Australian published Natasha Bita’s article on young Saba Button (May 28th), Meryl Dorey exploited this family to muster anti-vaccination support and to also make false claims about skeptics and Stop the AVN.
Meryl Dorey’s Yahoo! Twitter and Facebook libellous claims
Dorey published an “Action Alert” on Twitter, Facebook and Yahoo! claiming supporters of vaccination were “mobilising” and “organising their forces” to write letters of complaint to The Australian, and thus writing in support was vital. “They do NOT want newspapers or any media outlets to be covering this from a freeedom of choice point of view”, she lied on Yahoo!
Dorey was seizing ownership of Saba’s tragedy and using it to engender disgust toward those who criticise her already extensive dossier of lies and deceit. Little wonder many believe she manufactures stories of personal threats.
Not only is this offensive to Saba, her parent’s and those maligned but one must surely question her grasp on reality, not to mention the ethical issues surrounding vaccination, to see a grown woman manipulate her members as pawns in her own delusional neocon’ fantasy.
I wrote to Natasha Bita and her colleagues seeking confirmation and on June 21st she confirmed that whilst she had been on holidays no “complaints” had been received, or could be found.”
http://luckylosing.com/2011/08/16/chiropractors-adjust-vaccine-truths/
Natasha Bita’s article documents exactly what happened – a real adverse outcome after vaccination has occurred, awful and tragic. You will find no dispute from me regarding that. It has attracted huge media attention. As a journalist, don’t you stop and think “So why aren’t all the other supposed thousands that Meryl and the AVN insist have happened gaining the same amount of coverage?”
Because Meryl says so? Truth is, adverse vaccine reactions are very very very rare. And when they are documented to happen, there is no cover-up – as shown by poor Saba’s tragic outcome, there is massive media attention. Because severe reactions are rare.
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Dorey claims:
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The button story is a tragedy, but the article isn’t the case against vaccination that you seem to think it is. The sad fact is that even with this misapplied vaccine more people suffered from the disease than the vaccine. This vaccine was withdrawn from use for certain sections of the population (as it should have been earlier), and the people harmed by it should be compensated. However the fact still remains that vaccines present a greater benefit than not vaccinating, and present a lesser risk than the disease, to the entire population. They are not 100% safe, and regulatory monitoring should be stricter. However not being 100% perfect does not make them 100% bad either.
This isn’t some amazing anti vaccine smoking gun story. It certainly is a tragedy, and one that should not have happened. If there is negligence that should be fully investigated and prosecuted. No serious commentator has denied that. However it does not demonstrate what the anti vaccine lobby seems to think it does.
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I don’t think it’s “the case against vaccination” Martin. I think it’s a good example of how pharmcos stuff up, governments are slow to respond, and whistleblowers are pressured to stay quiet.
It must all be considered as part of the overall debate.
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Have you noticed how no one here is disagreeing with you about the CSL debacle? No one here is telling you to shut up about it. No one here is trying to silence you. No one here is saying Natasha Bita is a rampant conspiracy theorist who should be ignored.
Now, try telling us that mercury was found in vaccines (plural) at the rate of 10ppm. Try telling us that the pertussis vaccine is actually causing whooping cough in California. Try telling us that vaccines are a tool used by the Illuminati (lizard people) to implant micro-chips with a view to committing genocide.
Then see how the response differs and see if you can work out why.
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Meryl Dorey and the AVN did, and still do, use it as a case against vaccination.
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No one is defending or ignoring CSL. But it is just part of a much bigger picture that Meryl doesn’t seem to want to look at.
August 14, 2007…
“Parents are being warned to watch out for flu-like symptoms in their children as a virulent strain of the virus appears to have claimed the life of a sixth child.
The latest victim is a two-year-old boy from the city of Bathurst, west of Sydney, who died of a flu-related illness.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-08-14/experts-urge-calm-after-influenza-deaths/639484
I think it’s safe to assume that if six children had died from flu at that point, many more had suffered badly from it. So what do YOU suggest be done about it if we aren’t to use anything that comes with any level of risk?
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Great dissection of the inaccuracies contained in Ms Dorey’s Woodford PowerPoint Presentation by Peter Bowditch:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/ni/history/12/0107dorey_woodford.pdf
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Here’s a few updates folks. I attended one of Meryl’s talks at the Woodford Festival and surprise, surprise, she wasn’t booed off stage. In fact she received a large applause from a packed house. An immunologist stood up to say his piece and also received applause.
Meryl shared the stage with a doctor and said she was grateful Woodford had allowed that, as she has been asking for a doctor to share the stage with her for some time.
An interesting statistic she shared about whooping cough is that 20 years ago our whooping cough vaccination rate was 75%. It’s now at 95%, which is the rate at which a disease is supposed to die out, but there is a whooping cough epidemic. She said it could be because the pertussis bacteria is mutating, so vaccines are becoming less effective.
She also said many of the whooping cough epidemics have been in areas where there is a high vaccination rate (I haven’t verified this).
Her main point was: “Do your research and if you decide to vaccinate, you’ve made the right choice. Do you research and if you decide not to vaccinate, then you’ve made the right choice.”
On another point, true journalism is about giving a balanced look at both sides of a debate. Natasha Bita won a Walkley award for her series of articles exposing problems with vaccination in The Australian (hardly a kooky leftist conspiracy theory-promoting publication folks).
For those of you who’ve slandered Dr Wakefield, check this story out:
http://www.naturalnews.com/034629_Andrew_Wakefield_BMJ_Brian_Deer.html
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You hear her critilcs accusing her of cherrypicking data and statistics, well there is a prime example – the 95% vaccinated lie.
And why do I call it a lie? Because Ms Dorey has had it explained to her on many occasions that the 95% applies to children, not the entire population, and the problem is with babies too young to be vaccinated and people old enough for immunity to have worn off.
Check out this handy evidence-based dissection of her PowerPoint presentation at Woodford:
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/ni/history/12/0107dorey_woodford.pdf
Oh, and Dr Wakefield and his libel suit – cranks trying to silence criticism not through producing good science to defend their views but rather through abusing legal process and starting frivolous libel suits.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/legal_thuggery_antivaccine_edition_part.php#more
And here’s the irony – had Wakefield’s study not been proven fraudulant, he would have been on his way to produce his own vaccine. All his followers would have been happy to jab their children with his vaccine, would they??? Hypocrisy and illogical thinking at it’s best.
She has been shown this and continues to pull the wool over unsuspecting eyes. Over the eyes of those who claim to “research” “both sides”. One side is duping you and it is not the science.
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And as for Deer/BMJ vs Wakefield – good luck with that Andy Wakefield. Before you crank yourself up as some kind of medical truth journalist, Leigh, check out how unravelling bogus claims is really done :
http://briandeer.com/solved/david-lewis-1.htm
When you can delve as deeply into the issue as Brian Meer has, then we’ll talk.
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Well said Leigh. I find it extremely disturbing that a small, unrepresentative group of self-interested, and self-righteous people would seek to suppress Meryl Dorey’s Freedom of Speech, merely because it may run counter to the established orthodoxy, and more importantly, powerful and lucrative corporate interests such as the Pharmaceutical Industry. These same people claim that there is little profit in Vaccinations, yet a course of Gardasil (HPV Vaccine) costs $450, a cost borne by the taxpayer. “Medical Science is merely a paradigm. Its theories and methods are not incontrovertible Laws of Nature.” (Joanne Boland 2012)
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“a course of Gardasil (HPV Vaccine) costs $450″
Council rates cost far more than that. And they have to be paid every year and don’t save lives. What’s your point exactly?
“Medical Science is merely a paradigm. Its theories and methods are not incontrovertible Laws of Nature.” (Joanne Boland 2012)
“I went to a restaurant that serves ‘breakfast at any time’. So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.” (Stephen Wright)
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My point is that one of the fallacies used by Pro-Vaccinationists is that there is very little profit in Vaccines, when the opposite is true. Given the sheer number of Vaccines currently under development, it would be highly unusual, in an economic sense, for commercial enterprises to be expanding or entering an unprofitable or low-profit market if that were really the case.
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Just because something costs $450 doesn’t mean there’s a lot of profit in it. What does it cost to make? Do you know?
Lots of companies work on a “large-scale, low margin” basis. It’s nothing new.
And are you naturally suspicious of every profession that makes a profit? Do you denigrate homeopaths, naturopaths and chiropractors too since none of them work for free and many charge in excess of $450 per patient for the treatments they offer. Do you refuse to wear a seat belt because the companies that make them also make a profit?
I genuinely don’t get your point.
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Hi other young olppee with Asperger’s Syndrome!I am 12. I live with my Dad who also has Asperger’s in Upper Hutt.I am keen to meet up with any other olppee with Asperger’s. I like guitar, bass, drums, and I am good at all my school subjects (except sport, I have dyspraxia) but that does not mean I like any of them much. I have at least one friend with AS who comes to stay often (Ryan). Do you know other olppee who have Asperger’s in the Hutt around my age?Cheers,Luke
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Johanna you present two fallacious arguments.
Firstly no one is denying freedom of speech (not that we actually have a constitutional right to that in Australia anyway). Meryl has blogs, and Facebook pages and a mostly non existent magazine from which she frequently spouts her nonsense.
However it needs to be noted that she does not present a factual, or evidenced based case. She distorts the truth. Just like she did with her pertussis vaccination rate comment. She has been corrected on this many many times, yet continues to give the same old falsehood. Why?
Finally the cost of something does not imply it has a large profit. A car can cost tens of thousands of dollars, yet still be a loss for the manufacturer. Luckily most pharma companies are public companies and they publish their financial results. They cost of research and trials is massive. The cost of regulation is also onerous. Vaccines are not always the massive financial windfall you seem to think they are.
Also remember for every successful drug or vaccine there are dozens of others that never make it to the market place.
What needs to be reminded here is that the avn has been found by the HCCC to provide misleading information. That Meryl Dorey did it again at the Woodford ff is not surprising.
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Sssshh! Don’t mention the magazine. While it might be sold on the basis of 1-year, 2-year and 3-year subscriptions, there is no promised time frame for delivery.
Meryl herself clarified this recently when she wrote…
“…our memberships and subscriptions are tied to a specific number of magazines. So if someone renews their membership or subscribes for 6 issues, their membership or subscription doesn’t expire until they have received 6 issues.”
So a 1-year subscription for six magazines lasts however long it takes for you to get six magazines. Only two were produced in 2010 and only one in 2011. At that rate, it’s going to be a very long “1-year” subscription. I don’t even want to think about when a “3-year” subscription might expire.
But Big Pharma make profits selling and delivering a product so that’s where we should be targeting our scepticism.
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I thought things were supposed to so bad that she hired extra security. Yet here you say she wasn’t even booed? Nasty skeptics.
Why do you find the 75%-95% statistic “interesting” Does it concern you at all if it isn’t accurate? The thing has been dealt with so many times I am amazed that all those people who claim to “do their research” still haven’t discovered why it’s nonsense. Simply, we do not have a 95% vaccination rate. Not even close. Not even Canberra (which is the place she was most likely referring to – again).
If I said vaccination used to give people the ability to fly but now it doesn’t, would you find that statistic equally interesting?
True journalism should be about reflecting reality. When a journo writes about cosmology, we don’t expect them to include the views of astrologers or flat Earthers. When they write about any science, we don’t expect them to include opposing views from leaders of dozens of religions.
Natasha Bita wrote about reality, as I recall. CSL apparently screwed up the flu vaccine but that doesn’t mean that Meryl’s blog about the Illuminati (Lizard People) using vaccination to implant mind-control microchips with the intent of committing genocide, should also be positively reported by journalists.
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The HCCC found that Meryl Dorey often distorted figures and used mis information to present a wholly anti vaccination viewpoint. Her pertussis vaccination rates above are a case in point. She has mis represented the facts.
Whooping cough vaccination rates are not 95% for the entire population. Furthermore it is well known that whooping cough immunity wanes with time (whether the immunity as gained by vaccination or from the wild disease) so most teens and adults are not immune.
It is in this older under immunized, and waning immunity group that whooping cough is largely present. They in turn can pass it on to infants too young to be immunized, but at great risk from the disease.
The people not getting whooping cough are the slightly older children, who do have immunization rates of up to 95%.
Finally the areas at most risk are places like northern NSW which also have low vaccination rates.
Meryl doesn’t give you the facts. She distorts them to present an anti vaccination case. Yes do your research, but from reputable sources, not from the dubious avn and Meryl Dorey.
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Jane – you clearly don’t have accurate information about what Andrew Wakefield was found to have done. Rather than going to “naturalnews” as your source, I suggest people go to the General Medical Council findings – at http://www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf
The UK General Medical COuncil is the registration body that regulates the medical profession, for the safety of the public. You would be hard-pressed to classify this as “slander”. Although I guess those who rely on more ideology than knowledge may not chnage their minds.
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Um – It’s Leigh with the dodgy NN info, not me!
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Yes, I’ve heard the audio and Meryl offered fraudulent nonsense.
I’ve debunked her autism and pertussis scams and demonstrated that both are irredeemable.
“Vaccine induced autism – how Meryl Dorey misled her Woodford audience”
http://luckylosing.com/2012/01/06/vaccine-induced-autism-how-meryl-dorey-misled-her-woodford-audience/
“My personal request of Meryl Dorey”:
http://luckylosing.com/2012/01/04/my-personal-request-of-meryl-dorey/
– in depth deconstruction of her trick with pertussis figures.
Meryl made much of how great talking to each other is. She has not replied to several attempts from me to have these points addressed.
Apart from being disingenuous regarding honest and open discourse, what does this scheme say about her respect for her members and the audience? There is absolutely no way Meryl could have sourced the quote on Bailey Banks without reading that the ruling explicitly rejects autism. Eg, page 7:
Dr. Lopez (acting for Mr. Banks) stated that “Bailey does not have autism because he has a reason for his deficits.” On the ruling index: “Non-autistic developmental delay”.
And if you defend Wakefield, you certainly haven’t waded through the enormous volume of material.
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The 95% rate is very cherry picked. That is not for the whole country and all ages and populations, which is what public health stats break it down to. Let’s just say that for 1 year olds that is true. The rate then falls sharply for 4 year olds, as many people have forgotten about it and know that they won’t get any immunisation payments for it.
Oh btw, the stats for indigenous vaccination is worse across the board than for anyone else.
Lastly, if vaccinations are that suspect, then why do refugees/recent immigrants on the whole, follow their schedules so faithfully! It couldn’t be because they’ve seen what some of these wild diseases are like firsthand could it?
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The Woodford Folk Festival IS a quaint, fringe music festival! .. sure there may be speakers, workshops, artists that you do not agree with, so don’t go and see them..
Please don’t discredit a beautiful festival that people work year round for and thousands of people enjoy!
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This isn’t a matter of disagreeing with someone’s opinion, it’s about demonstrable misinformation that could lead to children dying or suffering permanent damage.
Do you honestly think that, no matter what bad things Woodford organisers might encourage to happen at their festival, no one should mention it because they’re mostly nice?
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Jessica – nobody is protesting about the workshops on candle-making or making wooden instruments – because these don;t hurt anyone. On the other hand, the misinformation Ms Dorey presents could potentially convince people to contribute to illness and death in children. I doesn’t matter where she presents it – it is still potentially harmful.
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What absolute venom is being spat out on this blog…regardless of your viewpoint here, the utter indignant self righteous, snide, sniggering, high moral ground judgement by the pro vaccinators turns my stomach.
Go to Meryl’s lecture or don’t, listen to Meryl or don’t, go to woodford or don’t cause last I checked we lived in a democracy. I’ll be at her talk and I’ll be very interested to hear what she has to say…oh but wait… before you all hurl your belittling and patronising abuses at me guess what…? I vaccinated my kid…and would do so again, but that’s me, my choice, my opinion, my right…just as it is not to do so if that is my choosing.
A great article here btw http://blogs.crikey.com.au/croakey/?p=6883
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:words:
No … no, that’s a pretty awful link. It’s basically a concern troll from an academic who thinks engagement means giving equal time to documented, mendacious liars. Methinks you protesteth too much.
By now you should be very much aware that what she has to say, is, by and large, delusional, dangerous bollockry. Continuing to hold any other belief out of spite is just odd. Personally, I’d be attending to listen to music and quaff beer, so listening to Meryl drone on about lizard people seems like poor value to money for me. Your mileage may vary.
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No actually, I’m not really aware of what she has to say…I’m saving that for Woodford. And, Lizard people? Huh….? Pro vaxers are lizards? WTF??? Well in that case I will be there to hear her drone on about that if only for the pure larf and of course to see the reaction she gets. Oh, don’t you worry, I’ll be there for the music and beer too but I do love a good debate. And that’s where I think Woodford has gone wrong…they would be wise to present both sides…oh but that’s right you don’t think there are two sides because you the educated scientists are ALWAYS ALWAYS right eh? Black / white, cut / dry…end of story. The only thing I protesteth is the complete lack of open mindedness and the gestapo nature of YOUR protests! Whether or not I find Meryl a delusional quack will remain to be seen…can’t wait! Maybe we could meet up and share a beer afterwards.
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I’m not a scientist an I object to her being given a platform and touted as some sort of expert because, even with my high-school-level education, I’m able to poke giant holes in a lot of the nonsense she writes.
If her topic was merely subjective, like “are green cars nicer than red cars?”, I wouldn’t much care how wonky her maths and science were. But this issue is about the lives of children and, for the most part, that isn’t a matter for belief, it’s a matter for facts.
And if you don’t know what the lizard-people reference is about, then you can’t possibly have read enough of the comments here to be able to properly understand why people object to her “message”.
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I worked at the AVN office about 10 years ago as a graphics / web person. I took the job as it was a job, I had no strong feelings either way (being at the time in my early 20s).
All I can say is after overhearing all the phone calls during my period working there, of parents in absolute terror just after vaccinating their child, finding their child going into seizures immediately after vaccination, of kids who just days later developed hearing problems, asthma, autism…well, after hearing these horrific converstions I will never let someone jab my child with whatever toxin they use.
Meryl is passionate to say the least, and she always showed nothing but compassion during these conversations (and sometimes her own tears), and always promoted freedom of choice…she never rammed anything down anyone’s throat that I witnessed.
It has been over 10 years now, but those phone calls haunt me and although I am not a very political person and I am not a member of the AVN, nor follow their movements, I do want people to know that vaccination tragedies happes far, far, FAR more often than is being publicised.
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In which instances were the vaccinations actually proved to have caused the problems and tragedies that occurred? Yes that’s right, almost never.
There is a reason that these stories are generally unpublicised. Because they are mostly coincidence and not related to any vaccine at all.
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‘Melanie’, after becoming aware of the AVN’s tactics on the ’9 myths’ article, my first instinct is to think this is another AVN supporter in disguise…but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
If there were far, far, FAR more vaccination tragedies happening than we know about, then why – out of the many, many MANY children I know who have been vaccinated – I haven’t heard of even one of these injuries occurring?
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Melanie,
If you work for a plumber, you’ll probably get a lot of phone calls from people with apparent plumbing problems. You will not get phone calls, however, from people who ring up only to tell you how well their pipes are working today. This does not mean that the principles of plumbing are complete crap. It doesn’t even mean the callers need a plumber.
If you work for a mechanic, you’ll probably get a lot of phone calls from people with apparent mechanical problems. You will not get phone calls, however, from people who ring up only to tell you how well their car is working today. This does not mean that the principles of automotive engineering are complete crap. It doesn’t even mean the callers need a mechanic.
So, if you work for an organisation that promotes itself entirely to people who think their child is suffering a vaccine reaction, then you are going to get phone calls from people who think their child is suffering with vaccine problems – especially if you promote the idea that vaccines are responsible for just about anything that can go wrong with a human body.
This does not mean that the principles of vaccination are complete crap because, quite obviously, the vast, vast majority of people who see absolutely no post-vaccine issues are not going to call you to tell you what a great day they’re having (and a good deal of those who do call are probably going to be wrong with their unqualified diagnosis).
I have some perverse admiration for Meryl’s “passion” and tenacity. It’s a shame she’s so out of her depth that she grabs at anything that floats by if it looks like it will support her – and so we get to the lizard-people conspiracies again.
Does it not concern you at all that terrified parents are ringing a person with absolutely no qualifications related to the thing they’re terrified about? It’s like ringing the hairdresser because you think your house is burning down.
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Melanie, this is a classic case of the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy). It’s hardly surprising that an organisation that specialises in Fooism gets contacted about Foo.
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Interesting comment Melanie, but I wonder did you actually speak to these parents on the phone directly yourself? Or did you just overhear Meryl’s side of the conversation? Because if only one side of the conversation is heard, things can get misconstrued. I hope that Meryl advised them to seek medical treatment, or at the very least report the ‘reactions’ to the relevant authorities. After all, how can these reactions be publicised if the health authorities don’t know about them.
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Melanie, what you are experiencing is just confirmation bias. Andy is correct.
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if u think the sponsors / taxpayers r wasting their money on a fest like woodford, then u r really dumb…
get real folks, YOU, the taxpayers r paying thru the nose for corrupt governments and organsations worldwide which r far more destructive than one woman speaking her truth at a festival which supports free speech and natural healthy alternatives to the chemically induced sickness industry thats completely poisoning the planet and dumbing down the people so they can simply be herded like sheep by the corrupt politicians and their bankster cronies
and turning on a festival which contributes such a massive positive amount to community and health and so much more is a really bad look for a blog…. blerk mamamia… ugly ugly blogging
and pls know, i work with the fest and at fest, so i KNOW how it works and what goes on… i suggest b4 u cast judgement on woodfordia, u come spend a fest working with them and be suitably humbled… your article above clearly shows u know very little about the fest, let alone the program meryl is scheduled in
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Firstly, something tells me you’re a bit one-eyed about this subject. Secondly, I’m from Brisbane. My friends go to the festival every year. The festival is fine, spreading dangerous lies that are a public health threat are not, however, fine.
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“speaking her truth”
i thnk ur mstkn trth fr blf.
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Pull your head in. This is not some enlightened-hippies vs big-mean-muggles dichotomy. I’ve been attended folk festivals for well over a decade now – hell, I’ve even volunteered – and I, too, know how they work. ie: they work despite the best efforts of some of their most impassioned supporters and volunteers, not because.
Natural Healthy Alternatives? Please. You know what they call Natural Healthy Alternatives to Western Medicine that’s been proven to work? Medicine.
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Also, while I’m ranting, I can remember when WFF was at Maleny, and actually had folk music instead of the latest poprockrandb bollocks. And smelly hippies, caked in mud, who haven’t washed for a week, and who insist of banging drums, dancing, and ululating in every gig (no matter how inappropriate it is to do so) should be minced.
Pardon my hyperbole.
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meryl is not speaking about vaccinations… and this is a country where free speech is legal… so get real folks…. thank god meryl is there throwing some objectivity on a VERY insidious industry which is about to crash n burn now the truth is out…
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Not speaking about vaccinations?
Here is the promotional blurb from Woodford:
“Investigate before you vaccinate is the motto of the AVN. Having collected reports of thousands of Australian families whose children have been killed or injured by these shots, Meryl knows that the benefits of vaccines don’t always outweigh the risks. Her information is sourced from medical data and is necessary for anyone who has a family or is thinking about being vaccinated.”
Do you think she’s talking about making paper doilies?
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yes the program sez that, my comment was based on a conversation i had with the program director, i have yet to read the program specs… regardless, free speech is legal and the comparison of anything meryl sez is NOTHING compared to the lies n deceitful propaganda publicised by lobby groups, the media and the sickness industry snake oil salespeople
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I assume you were told she’s speaking about autism and toxins. Do you think she’ll do this without tying them both to vaccination?
Seriously?
I guess we’ll know next week who was right.
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The only thing more sad than a drive-by liar is one who is clearly lying to themselves to maintain an ideological wordlview. Have a good look at yourself.
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If you think of yourself as a Skeptic then you also owe it to yourself to study the history of germ theory which is the very basis of Vaccination.
Two of the main players were Louis Paster (1850s) the father of germ theory and Jonas Salk (1950s) the inventor of the polio vaccine.
In the case of Pasteur he is now a proven plagiarist and on his death bed he said, “Bernard (a contemporary) was right The microbe is nothing, the terrain is everything.” Even the Pasteur Institute in Paris admitted that Pasteur falsified many of his experimental results.
His opponent, Bechamp (the guy he ripped off) had in fact discovered the germ theory first but his conclusions were very different to Pasteurs. In essence they parted over not the presence of but rather the role that germs played in disease. The microbe is the thing we have been taught to fear that could attack us at any time (hence the need for vaccination) but the terrain (our bodies natural immunity) has been systematically underplayed in the role of disease. And this the very ground of our health and wellbeing which is being undermined by our collective ignorance and unwillingness to question.
As for Jonas Salk he (and others) were recently discovered after an Associated Press review to be a criminal that experimented on mental patients and inmates, many of which died as a result. Not exactly good science.
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/27/horrific-us-medical-experiments-come-to-light/
If any of this flies in the face of what we have been sold and told repeatedly it’s not the fault of science but rather those that have sold out and cashed in massively on the whole industry that surrounds our sickness.
So I ask again, is it being skeptical to ignore all this and just believe what the industry has been telling us? And is it reasonable in the face of all this to dismiss the argument against vaccination as if it was as established an idea as gravity or evolutionary theory?
Like I said if you want to stand in line and take a shot in the arm on the basis of that then I say your health deserves better than that. And I sure don’t want you or anyone campaigning to force those of us that object to vaccination to have to stand in line with you. It looks and feels a little too much like a scene from 1984 for me.
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I’ve been waiting for the germ theory query.
Just one space still left on my bingo card.
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fabulous comment herrin, thankyou!
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Have you seen the graphs of incidence of various diseases (polio, measles…) with dates indicating when vaccination was introduced? Very instructive, and convinced me.
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In this thread: People making dubious handwavy links to Orwell’s 1984, when they have clearly never read the book, and have absolutely no idea how stupid they look when they do so.
Let us all point at them and laugh. That’s free speech for you: you get to make stupid assertions, and we get to laugh at you.
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The Pasteur “death bed” lie never gets old, does it?
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/pasteur.htm
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This is a testimonial from well respected American doctor, Dr Ron Paul running for president at the moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiTStZtrlE
Vaccines are big business in fact they are some of the largest lobby groups in the world both in the US and here. You think that has no effect on the laws that get passed?
The reality is they are in the sickness business and we’re not getting healthier for the most part.
Soaring Pharmaceutical Profits
CBS News Dec 16, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5MAMZsOHgc
On top of all that the insurance companies stand to gain, not to mention the litigation fees and public servants.
And you think all these people just care only about your health? And would only ever act in your best interests?
Is that being skeptical to just not question their motives at all?
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That doctor was not even speaking out as an anti vaccine lobbyist, and it was primarily a political speech. Why the hell would you trust him over scientists?
And second, the other video was talking about pharmaceutical drugs and the standard of health care in general, not vaccines. “Big Pharma” makes a hell of a lot more money from antibiotics and other treatments than they do from vaccines. If it was purely about profit, they’d let diseases spread so they could make money from treating them.
Third, we do not live in the US. Those videos have no relevance to Australia whatsoever.
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We in Australia are subject to exactly the same dynamic in terms of big business lobbying to have laws passed and in many cases they’re exactly the same companies here that are in the US.
The laws Dr Paul is referring to that were passed in 1976 paved the way for the vaccination programs in the US and then followed inevitably by other countries as it picked up momentum.
This shows the beginning of the legal aspect of the process but you think it has no relevance?
The imposition of politics and science (and huge amounts of money) is unavoidable and to ignore it you fail to notice a huge aspect of this debate.
And when you say scientists do you mean the ones paid by the pharmaceutical companies or the small number of impartial ones paid by truly independent bodies?
If you want to call lining up like sheep and taking it in the arm as being skeptical then go for it.
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For god’s sake, he is attacking the government for letting the Department of Home and Security make medical based decisions. What part of that is relevent to Australia????
He also brings up Tuberculosis, and the possibilty of screening for it, but children are vaccinated against TB these days and the prevalence in Australia and the US is amongst the lowest in the world. I don’t know how this doctor would expect to screen for TB in someone who had only just contracted it.
The reason that vaccinations administered quickly to the masses for things like swine flu is because of the risk involved in not vaccinating. I know a lot of people who had swine flu who got really sick. Swine Flu wasn’t as bad as predicted, but it could have been and not taking precautions may have been disasterous. Ocassionally things go wrong. But vaccine research continues to progress at a pretty amazing rate and the number of reactions is far less than it was.
Scientists in this country carry out research funded mostly by the government. Including vaccine testing. It is not funded by pharmaceutical companies. Your argument is flawed and has been rebutted many times in here.
“The imposition of politics and science (and huge amounts of money) is unavoidable and to ignore it you fail to notice a huge aspect of this debate”
The imposition of politics and science on what? There is large amounts of money involved in a great many things, but that doesn’t meant that everything that involves money is corrupt. I think you just enjoy being paranoid.
But you are right, science has a massive imposition on this debate. And the science keeps telling us that vaccines cause very few serious reactions, AND that they play a big part in reducing the incidence of infectious diseases. Yet YOU choose to keep ignoring that. Pot. Kettle. Black.
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Last time I checked we don’t live inthe US.
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“peterbowditch
You are assuming that there are two sides to the story. There would be if there were any valid arguments against vaccination, but there aren’t any of those”.
Bowditch is the Australian cog in the Vaccination Propaganda Machine, the internet personification of the ´Ministry of Truth´ from 1984. They call themselves “skeptics” although as you see, there is no skepticism at all. Instead, he and the others he works with, are blind, deaf and dumb to the hundreds of thousands of those harmed by their dangerous, highly profitable products and the vast amount of data on the deaths and injuries.
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Hundreds of thousands harmed? Vast data? Where? Says who? This is kind of getting tiring now…
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Ahhh, but it’s all secret you see? Dummy.
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They’re hiding the info on the ABC website!
http://www.abc.net.au/health/library/stories/2003/05/22/1918384.htm#p4
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Tricky buggers hiding it on the internet. Who would have thought to look there?!?
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Yeah, you’re right. Who can argue with all this highly qualified secret information?
Kris, that abc article was probably funded by big pharma, don’t you know anything?
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One needs only to study the reactions and deaths from the various vaccinations that are submitted to this data collection agency.
http://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index
They admit that the reactions are very under reported …
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VAERS is raw data and includes such gems as “I turned into the incredible hulk”
Reliable, huh?
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Yet another “researcher” who hasn’t bothered to read any of the comments here before chiming in to set us all straight.
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Da Pharma Baaad Big Biz Troll iz in da houz. Plz not to feed.
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I like being a cog.
Where can I see the graves of all these people killed by vaccines?
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I wonder how Meryl’d feel if we rang the people who lost kids to “vaccine injuries” or “vaccine deaths” and hassled them for information, like certain people have to those who lost babies to whooping cough? Vermin.
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As a child I suffered through both measles and mumps. As a parent I had all four of our kids (a joint decision, mind you) vaccinated and none of them had to endure what we as kids did.
That’s alone is enough evidence for me if four healthy, well-adjusted and successful adults are not.
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New Study: Vaccinated Children Have 2 to 5 Times More Diseases and Disorders Than Unvaccinated Children
http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/10/14/big-study-vaccinated-kids-2-5-more-diseases-than-unvaccinated/
Please do not be fooled by the enormous Vaccination Propaganda Team. Protect your children.
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This is a joke right? You believe a study conducted by an anti-vax group, as an online survey of all things, is more credible than science???????
Do you have an IQ of 85? Or are you just ignorant? No really?
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This “survey” was the equivalent of running a questionnaire in Iran asking which is the right religion – Islam or Christianity?
And didn’t they delete a bunch of positive vax responses because they felt they were added in jest or something? Don’t quote me on that though.
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LOL. That would not surprise me in the least. Added in jest hahaha
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‘Protect your children’…
I am – they are vaccinated
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=efto1LpWkKw#!
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So, now we are to believe someone who now practises homeopathy (ie, has thrown away a fundamental belief in physics for starters) and is anti-vaccine, and throws around phrases like ” From there an avalanche of truth collapsed upon me and I will never be the same.”.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/dr_suzanne_humphries_and_the_internation.php
A deluded quackademic on a quest for the “Truth” Hell lets just ignore the hundreds of thousands of other doctors and scientists. She clearly Knows Stuff.
Please.
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So you clearly have no belief in the bodies ability to heal itself, and that our “design” in flawed? We’ve all been brainwashed into believing that we can only be healthy with the intervention of doctors and medicine. I struggle with this myself, but am slowly learning to trust my body.
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Where did I say that?
The body is fantastic at producing an immune response – whether that be to an antigen in a vaccine or to the wild, live infectious agent.
As for the body healing itself – how laughable. When my 7 month old daughter was in hospital fighting Strep pneumoniae that had entered her bloodstream, she would have died without intravenous antibiotics within hours.
There are examples of people who “trust” their children’s bodies to heal themselves who have ended up in jail .
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/baby-gloria-thomass-parents-thomas-and-manju-sam-jailed-for-not-getting-proper-medical-help/story-e6freuy9-1225780501717
Not to mention the same outcome – aka death – when adults put their faith in quackery to cure cancer:
http://www.news.com.au/national/poor-science-led-to-penelope-dingles-death-from-cancer/story-e6frfkvr-1225899300532
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Are you not aware of the huge percentage of people who die after chemotherapy and radiation?
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Yeah, cause homeopathy saved Penny Dingle.
Aren’t people dying because of um, cancer? Please do enlighten us though.
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Look at it this way…
We put three people in a car. We give one a seat belt, one a toy elephant and one nothing. Then we drive them into a wall at 40kmh.
We do this 100 times (with different groups of people). In the end we see that the vast majority of those wearing seat belts were uninjured, or suffered very minor injuries, while those holding a toy elephant or nothing didn’t fare so well.
Sure, a few of the elephant and nothing people did just fine and a few of the seat belt people didn’t fare so well but, overall, the results were strongly in favour of the usefulness of seat belts.
Now, in the real world some people die whilst wearing seat belts and some people survive despite being flung out of their cars – even when they aren’t holding a toy elephant.
This does not mean that that toy elephants and seat belts are equivalent in their usefulness as safety restraints.
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You surely can’t be serious. People who opt out of chemotherapy and radiation therapy die of cancer you twit.
Cancer treatments can be very harmful, but lets not insult cancer sufferers and their families by comparing the treatments to vaccines. Cancer treatment happens to be an area where there is a lot of funded research, (though never enough) and constant advances and progression toward less toxic treatments. But cancer patients can’t afford to not have it just in case they develop kidney failure because the cancer will kill them anyway.
This is not area open for discussion, I can see it really upsetting a lot of people.
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Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
If I had to guess, are you trying to say (big pharma and medical establishment = evil) because chemo and radiation kill patients? Damn. You are so right. Only if those stupid cancer patients weren’t so gullible to go for chemo and radiation.
Wow. You obtuse heartless moron.
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Sure. I cut my finger and a few weeks later, there’s little of no sign of the injury.
However, if a tiger bites my leg off, my body does not regenerate a new limb for me. (Does yours?)
Moral of the story, we aren’t some sort of miraculously-conceived, privileged, perfect beings. We’re just a part of nature, in a constant battle for survival, and sometimes the antagonist wins. And sometimes, the antagonist is tiny.
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Ah, love, the intervention of modern medicine DOES help to keep us healthy and alive. That is why people are living A LOT longer than they did. This is not rocket science.
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And, as if on cue, Orac features the good doctor Humphries – again. Today.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/12/quoth_dr_suzanne_humphries_vaccines_are.php
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Meryl Dorey ( in all her lame cries of freedom of speech)just deleted my valid point re how does an online survey + evidence? and then blocked me form posting . what a hypo critic and oh yeah i hit a ore point in here argument
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That’s not new, anon.
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You join a long and esteemed list of us who have been given the same treatment anon.
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How is she (Meryl) able to block you from posting? You mean on her site or her Facebook page?
I think people should be pressured to back up their idea of what constitutes evidence by the way. On both ‘sides’.
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On her facebook page she just deletes posts she doesn’t like or that ask too many questions or offer any other evidence.
On her site I imagine it’s done via IP address. I’ve moderated a forum where that was very easy to do. Hope that explains it.
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“I think people should be pressured to back up their idea of what constitutes evidence by the way. On both ‘sides’.”
And on that score you’ll no doubt respond very soon to all the people further down who answered your earlier contributions with facts, examples and some questions for you rather than just telling us again how we should conduct ourselves in this, err, “debate”.
Tell us about the toxins for starters – but not here. Do it in response to the appropriate comments further down, please.
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Evidence, in this context, to me means the results of properly implemented scientific method. That is, sufficient data, analysis and rigorous review so that we can all be confident its not distorted by coincidence or deliberate manipulation.
And you?
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I am blocked from posting comments on the AVN’s Facebook page. I am also blocked from following Ms Dorey on Twitter and from posting comments on her blogs (she has at least two). I am blocked from viewing the AVN’s mailing list at Yahoo! and I was summarily thrown out of and blocked from accessing her new “Vaccines – Respectful Debate” mailing list at Google Groups. My sin there was to provide evidence when Ms Dorey asked for it.
For her to bleat about freedom of speech is hypocrisy of the highest quality.
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And then the AVN has the hide to put this on their facebook page.
Hypocrisy much?
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Well that is certainly hypocritical I agree and unfortunate for her as she should be prepared to deal with points of view contrary to her position. Also it does her argument no favors at all if she does believe in lizard people taking over the world etc.
There are however plenty of critically minded people (like me) that are examining the efficacy of Vaccination and have good reason to be skeptical about the constant story we are being sold. Research is highly subjective and very much affected by our own presuppositions and assumptions.
It doesn’t do any ‘pro-vax’ argument any favors to act and comment as if this issue is totally beyond question. Nor is it particularly skeptical to imagine that a multi billion dollar business that makes more and more profits every year has only your health in mind when it makes a new product.
It’s by no means a conspiracy theory Peter to think that these huge companies (and the industry around it) may not hold our personal health as a people in their highest regard.
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Why are those of us who are pro (or rather anti anti-vax) not critically minded or questioning though? We are not the ones who talk about belief in something.
We are not the ones who listen and link to quacks who are using people’s fears to flog snake oil. Like Mercola.
We are not the ones supporting and believing crackpots like Erwin Alber from VINE who staunchly stand by theories that vaccination is responsible for people being gay.
We are not the ones who deny that there have been problems, risks and dangers. We just put them in context.
No, it’s not a conspiracy theory to wonder about these things, or companies making money from medicines. It IS foolhardy to continue to believe doubts as truths when they have been put to rest time and time again. Why is this so difficult to understand?
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You’re building strawmen. I don’t think anyone on the pro-vax side believes pharma companies are run by angels. But it’s a huge jump from there to the assumption that, because they make profits, vaccines can’t work as “advertised”.
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Oh, and wasn’t it you who said vaccines are injected into the bloodstream?
Research? You’re doing it wrong.
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You can also get more info here: about minute 14
http://www.abc.net.au/health/video/tonic/default.htm?url=/health/video/clips/3389753.htm
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When your certainties are based on an erroneous paradigm then all the research in the world will not educate you.
If we can raise the standard of the conversation and stay open even when emotions are running high only then do we stand a chance to uncover the truth.
Knowledge means nothing without an understanding if what we do not know.
I realise this issue is a very passionate one for many people. They think that people who do not vaccinate are risking the very lives of everyone else. Apart from the total lack of logic to that argument, why do some people not conduct themselves with more dignity?
And what exactly is the benefit of trying to shut down someone that speaks in seeming opposition to our thinking? Is anyone else concerned on the effect that will have on our democracy?
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What is illogical in the argument about people not vaccinating lowering overall immunity?
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If you’ve been immunised isn’t that supposed to prepare you for it even if someone does sneeze in your face and give you the microbe in question?
There is a fundamental idea at work that the microbe is more powerful than the environment which in this case is our bodies.
There is no question that a damaging agent or virus that we’re unprepared for can damage us but as to how we can best prepare for that thing, that is the question.
One thing I do know is that the traditional western medical approach has emphasized the microbe and only more slowly adopted the idea of the environment being instrumental. i.e. nutrition, exercise and stress levels etc.
So it makes sense that the immunity of the people around effects me and you to some degree – like covering up your mouth when you sneeze seems sensible to me.
But its no where near as influential as my diet lifestyle etc.
And, certainly not enough to limit others freedom to choose!
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“If you’ve been immunised isn’t that supposed to prepare you for it even if someone does sneeze in your face and give you the microbe in question?”
So what you’re saying is that you can tell us the right way to go about discussing this – but you clearly haven’t read most of the conversation on this very site where that question has been answered over and over an over. I even answered it in ALL-CAPS in the hope that people who “do their own research” might actually see it.
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I’m sorry but this herd immunity idea is yet to convince me is all I am saying. It has to proven beyond a reasonable doubt for me to consider putting known toxins directly into my body without any filtering.
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What part doesn’t make sense, Herrin?
If enough people in a group have immunity to a disease, the disease finds it hard to pass itself on. If as many people as can be immunised are immunised, this stops diseases spreading.
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This series of 8 simple animations that demonstrate how disease spreads when there is inadequate herd immunity might clarify things a bit for you Herrin.
http://welshandgrumpy.me/toys/herd.php?scenario=intro
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Herrin, if the herd immunity ‘idea’ is yet to convince you, perhaps you’d like to expand on what you see as the specific flaws in the theory?
Edit to add: There are still a few people who argue that climate change is yet to be ‘proven beyond a reasonable doubt’, and we should therefore not take any action. Are you also of that view?
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This is EXHAUSTING. Herrin, you are yet to be convinced. There are literally thousands of peer-reviewed studies out there on the topic, links to which have been put in this post. So please could you let us know what would convince you? What would ‘prove it’?
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I would like to ask of you, Herrin, to :
Define “toxins”.
Define your understanding of the term “filtering” with regard to “toxins” and the immune response mechanism of the human body.
…and so on…
But I won’t. Because the evidence on these pages tells me you are not open to accepting scientific evidence, nor do you have the academic capability or intellectual mindset to challenge it.
Say whatever you want, but as is the case for Meryl Dorey, I am allowed to call you out on your unlearned opinions.
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I wasn’t even referring to herd immunity. You asked why a vaccinated person should be concerned about microbes. I told you it’s been answered several times already – even in ALL-CAPS.
Do your research.
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Herrin, I’ve read your comment a number of times now, and to be honest I’m having trouble following it. For example, covering your mouth when sneezing has nothing to do with ‘the immunity of the people around you’. More importantly, vaccinations are *entirely* to do with strengthening the body environment. No-one would argue against the idea that nutrition, exercise and stress management are helpful, but where is they evidence that – of themselves – they can prevent outbreaks of the seriously damaging illnesses we’re talking about?
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Because the anti-vax arguments hide behind the “free speech” and “right to alternative views”, the only things that can protect & support their claims for this long without evidence – otherwise they would fall apart. You have a right to alternative views and we have a right to tell you you are using elevated levels of pseudoscience, “gut instinct” and overblown emotions to compile your case instead of the evidence. Which has been explained here 100 times.
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Hey does anyone know if Big Pharma are trying to hurt us all with asprin based painkillers too? Cos I know lots of people who suffer reactions from asprin. Surely they shouldn’t encourage pain relief when people get reactions… and penicillin. I know people who have had terrible allergic reactions to penicillin. Why would anyone want to encourage us to take such a drastic risk of helping their body recover if there’s a chance they might be allergic? Money hungry big pharma b*&^%$ds. How dare they make such astronomical advances in medicine like that? How dare they give Howard Florey a Nobel prize for changing the face of medicine? What has our world come to?
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No. You must be mistaken. Aspirin is natural and natural things can’t hurt us. Ever.
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oh yeah. o’ course. my bad.
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For those defending Meryl Dorey’s right to a platform to spread disinformation about vaccines, would they also defend the rights of a holocaust denier to a platform ?
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Wow. This is the first time I’ve properly tried to read comments on an Anti-Vax article and it’s killing me. There are so many comments from so many different people. I’m not sure who is who and whether people are using different names to log in and post things to make it look like they have support from lots of people. None if it makes sense to me…. Humans should try to be as healthy as we can, and that is what vaccinations do. I really don’t understand why there is SUCH an argument!
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Thatgirlfiona, if you don’t understand why there is such an argument, read this: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/27/vaccines-are-dangerous-says-the-government.aspx
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How about supplying the raw data and not some flimsy biased interpretation of the IoM report? Here is the brief:
http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality/Vaccine-report-brief-FINAL.pdf
And this is the bit I like best:
“Vaccines offer the promise of protection against
a variety of infectious diseases. Despite much media
attention and strong opinions from many quarters,
vaccines remain one of the greatest tools in the public
health arsenal. Certainly, some vaccines result in
adverse effects that must be acknowledged. But the
latest evidence shows that few adverse effects are
caused by the vaccines reviewed in this report”
See that? The report showed FEW adverse effects caused by vaccines. For nearly every single of the 158 cases studied, NO causal relationship could be established.
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From your link: Dr Mercola begins with…
__”As I have long stated, and the Institute of Medicine (IOM) now admits: “Vaccines are not free from side effects, or “adverse effects”__
But who ever said they were free from side effects? Who is he arguing against here? It’s a strawman that he’s apparently built simply so he can set fire to it.
Then he lists a bunch of side effects. Package inserts also list side effects – that’s how secret they are. There’s even a bolded bit that says [there's] “Insufficient scientific evidence to make a call about whether certain vaccines do or do not cause a wide range of serious health conditions,…”
Can I put it to you, quite seriously, that there’s also insufficient scientific evidence to make a call about whether buttered toast does or does not cause a wide range of traffic accidents. From this, would you deduce that toast is definitely implicated in car crashes – or that there’s just no evidence to support any such conclusion?
Also, since you’re concerned about the money made by Big Pharma, have you looked at Mercola’s earnings? He’s not poor. It appears to me that he benefits directly from selling alternatives to pharmaceuticals. Like the AVN, he sells products right there on his website. Why does this conflict of interest not concern you too?
And again, given the weight of support for vaccination in the medical community and within governments of all persuasions all around the world, why do you find Joe Mercola to be a more trustworthy source?
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Mercola’s site. The one that the FDA has told him to stop selling dodgy alternative therapy items on regularly over the last 10 years?
Take most advice from that site with a grain of salt.
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Holy crap. Mercola. You’re using Mercola as a reference, and trying to appear balanced and inquisitive?
Mercola is a very, very, very wealthy man due to selling pointless supplements for huge markups to the gullible. And people whine about Big Farmer!
Graggh.
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hahahhaha big farmer or big pharma? Or are they essentially one and the same? lol
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It’s a conspiracy, man! Wheels within wheels! Fluoride! Thimerosal! Mercury! Aluminium! Chemtrails! NEW WORLD ORDER!
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Oh godddddd, don’t get me started on f*****g chemtrails SNERD, my head may just explode hahaha
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Mercola. Famous snake oil merchant. If you think Big Pharma is a worry, what about Big Mercola and Big sCAM?
When you pay for a bottle of water or alcohol with “vibrations” in it as a homeopathic remedy, whose big scam is that?
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Please Lord, send us an intelligent antivaxxer – even just one – so that someone can explain rationally to us just exactly why the **** these nutters are arguing against disease prevention!
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It’s an excellent question. Were you ask me, an expert in human psychology (not), I would suggest it’s all down to a kind of body-horror – the idea that we have some kind of innate purity that is sullied by unnatural, cthonic vaccinations. This is especially true of those who are completely squicked by the thought of vaccinating neonates and infants. I have seen my son eat chewed biscuit off the floor; I suspect he got several orders of magnitude more pathogens from that any vaccination. Not that I encourage it, but existence is not without risk. Every day I’m not struck by lightning is a good one.
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“Every day I’m not struck by lightning is a good one.”
Unless you’re hit by a bus, or a plane falls on your house, or a stray bullet finds you, or a rabid dog bites you…
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Well, I know if I offend the Reptoids, such a Little Accident may befall me. I know better than to betray my Big Pharma masters.
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Or you get a vaccine and turn into the Incredible Hulk..
wait, actually that might not be so bad…
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If it’s reported on VAERS, then it can happen, right?
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http://www.facebook.com/LightningStrikeParty
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Even with no scientific figures consider the wisdom of introducing toxins and known poisons directly into your bloodstream, bypassing all the bodies filtering mechanisms.
On top of that most people assume that the eradication of infectious diseases was due to vaccination rather than lifestyle and hygiene.
Of course some vaccines have been proven to work, but doesn’t anyone see that big Pharma and many doctors (not all) are motivated by financial incentives to give vaccines to as many people as possible?
The truth is always more complicated than we’re prepared to admit and if we take a black and white approach.i.e. all vaccines are dangerous or – they aren’t useful at all, then we will most likely be wrong.
If this is such an important issue then it deserves more of our reason and decency than less important issues. The higher principle of democracy and rational conversation is more important with jugular issues.
Perhaps when some people grow up emotionally we can move on to sharing some of the more important facts and information.
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No vaccines are introduced into the bloodstream. They are administered intramuscularly. You get less antigens introduced than you would from a scratch from a rose thorn with the added benefit of sterility ! Filtering mechanisms? YOu can catch tetanus by the same mechanism by which the vaccine is administered – punctured intramuscularly, except you get the added bonus of lockjaw and a prolonged death!
Eppiglottitis is a nasty infection caused by a bacterium, Haemophilus influenzae that has disappeared since the Hib vaccine was introduced in the 80′s. Sanitation didn’t change that much in the last 30 years did it?
Big Pharma would make more money out of the fallout of the complications arising from allowing vaccine preventable diseases to return.
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Right, correction. intramuscular injections. That is a distinction for sure. My point was that when we bypass the normal filtering mechanisms the ingredients on the syringe becomes a whole lot more important. As I said there are many diseases that have been affected by medical intervention lets call it rather than just vaccinations and I love the fact that modern science has brought this about.
You’re right that the pharmcos have a lot at stake but they also stand to make billions. So I don’t think we as people concerned about our health can afford to be religious in this matter. I use that as a negative term to describe peoples automatic assumption that vaccines are the only thing that has reduced the instance of infectious diseases.
Take this idea of seasonal flu vaccines. Am I wrong in saying that it’s impossible to effectively vaccinate against the flu?
One aside: Thank you for your reasonable and educational reply. I hope more people can conduct themselves with a little more dignity than some of the personal attacks and vilification that has been going on here.
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People with no scientific background whatsoever don’t get to pull nonsense out of their arses, then chide others about “growing up emotionally.” I don’t consider liars to be all that mature.
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What facts do you want to share? Do you mean lies like “toxins and known poisons” and “directly into your bloodstream” and the idea that Big Pharma (I love that, even though I have heard it a million times) makes more out of vaccines that are given a couple of times than they can make from life-long treatments for the diseases themselves?
Those facts?
Do you think we haven’t heard them all before?
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Peter thank you for writing the article and getting the party started so to speak.
I hope you picked up from my comment that I am primarily concerned with the quality of the conversation around this issue even more so than the actual points themselves.
When we elevate the quality of the conversation in importance above what we think is right we become open in the moment instead of just reinforcing our current position.
In many of your comments you seem to have taken a position of absolute certainty on one side of this issue and yet claim to have looked at both sides.
Its true that the scientific method involves challenging peoples ideas as well and this should be encouraged.
“I’ve looked at both sides, just as I’ve looked at both sides of Holocaust denial, the moon landing “hoax”, the “research” of 9/11 Truthers, AIDS denial, …
But sometimes the other side just isn’t there”
As in say evolution? I would agree that so far there is no other side to evolution and therefore no debate worth having apart from the details. But comparing this to holocaust denial, seriously??
My personal concern is more about the collision between medical science and big business and the mixing of motivations that is inevitable.
Do you really think that this is so clean cut to be able to say there is no other side at all?
Vaccines Have Serious Side Effects – The Institute of Medicine Says So!
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/27/vaccines-are-dangerous-says-the-government.aspx
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Sorry I did not make myself clear.
I had in quotes a section of a reply that Peter gave to someone questioning the efficacy of some vaccines I think. And so I was saying that his comparison to holocaust deniers being as stupid as someone challenging vaccines was erroneous in my opinion.
NO damn way am I a holocaust denier just to clear that up!!
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“I hope you picked up from my comment that I am primarily concerned with the quality of the conversation around this issue even more so than the actual points themselves.”
Are you familiar with the term “concern troll”?
And as for Mercola, it’s been answered elsewhere on this page.
“Vaccines Have Serious Side Effects – The Institute of Medicine Says So!”
I do love the exclamation mark – like this is breaking news!!!
In short, he implies that he’s always said vaccines had risks but that no one else would admit it until now. Do you believe that?
Then he has a long list of reactions. So what? I could probably produce a long list of reactions from bread or ham or dog hair or sunlight or snow or oxygen. Without context, such lists are worthless.
Who exactly is denying vaccines carry risk?
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“My personal concern is more about the collision between medical science and big business and the mixing of motivations that is inevitable.”
A lot of people on the provaccination side share this concern. I share this concern. The mightly dollar does have a corrupting influence. But not so much that all medicos are just big pharma shills as described so often by antivax people.
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You’re linking to Dr Mercola, one of the biggest conmen and frauds there is. Hardly a reputable source on medical issues.
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Vaccines are administered as an intramuscular injection, not intravenous. Nothing goes directly into the bloodstream,
And secondly, how disrespectful do you think you are being of people have chosen to go into the medical science field to help others. They get paid a wage like everyone else, just a higher one because they require the highest level of qualification and work long and strenuous hours. As far as “big pharma” goes, they don’t subject their own vaccines to clinical trials, nor do they make the decision about which ones are given to the masses. The government funds it. If they didn’t, it would become private enterprise and then scientific research results may be more likely to be skewed or unethically obtained. As it stands we are lucky to live in a country which has a government that funds large scale medical research. Many of us would be in trouble if this wasn’t the case.
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How does it go directly into your bloodstream, Herrin? I’ve never seen or received a jab that is Intravenous. Intramuscular (into a muscle) or into the subcutaneous fat, yes, but not into the bloodstream.
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Thank you for the clarity on this. I replied to someone else on the same point. However my personal concern stands in that the ingredients are damn important when the injection does bypass the usual filtering methods. I think that even a brief reading of some of the contents of the vaccines out there would give any sane person pause. I know they’re not all the same but still…
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“I think that even a brief reading of some of the contents of the vaccines out there would give any sane person pause.”
Why? Be specific. I want LD50 data and more. I want a reason to be concerned.
In the meantime, search this page for “MANGANESE” to see why I might be less concerned than you about nasty chemicals.
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What ingredients are you worried about, Herrin?
Please link something better than Mercola. All he wants to do is flog his own stuff on his site through what he publishes.
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I predict that this bit of drive-by concern-trolling with some copy-and-paste argument will be the last we see of OP. Way out there, I know.
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Welp, they came back! Colour me shocked to find that they’ve read nothing else in the conversation, and are just repeating all the usual denialist nonsense.
Concern troll is always concerned.
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Science isn’t about democracy. we do not vote to decide what a scientific fact is we examine the evidence and reach a conclusion based on what can be proved. the anti vax lobby tries in vain to reinterpret and twist what the peer reviewed literature shows and that is that vaccination is an incredibly effective way to prevent disease with minimal risk. As for introducing toxins into the body, firstly the argument about toxins and vaccines is cospircy nonsense, secondly eating and breathing are the 2 most effective ways of introducing toxins into the body. Finally ALL VACCINES have been demonstrated to work. You ask for a reasoned debate and then continually punctuate your argument with unintelligent comments.
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You mean like these nasty toxins Herrin…
ZINC: The free zinc ion in solution is highly toxic to plants, invertebrates, and even vertebrate fish. Stomach acid contains hydrochloric acid, in which metallic zinc dissolves readily to give corrosive zinc chloride.
MANGANESE: Manganese poses a particular risk for children due to its propensity to bind to CH-7 receptors. Manganese poisoning has been linked to impaired motor skills and cognitive disorders. In 2005, a study suggested a possible link between manganese inhalation and central nervous system toxicity in rats.
IODINE: Elemental iodine is an oxidizing irritant and direct contact with skin can cause lesions. When mixed with ammonia and water, elemental iodine forms nitrogen triiodide which is extremely shock sensitive and can explode unexpectedly.
COPPER: Cirrhosis of the liver in children (Indian Childhood Cirrhosis) has been linked to boiling milk in copper cookware.
CHROMIUM: After it reaches the blood stream, it damages the kidneys, the liver and blood cells through oxidation reactions. Hemolysis, renal and liver failure are the results of these damages.
COBALT: shows mutagenic and carcinogenic effects similar to nickel
MOLYBDENUM: Low levels of prolonged exposure can cause irritation to the eyes and skin.
You really wouldn’t want any of those things in your body since they are clearly not good for us.
Well, except for the fact that I found all those chemicals in a list of “essential nutrients”. You’d be quite unwell without them.
“The dosage makes the poison” as they say. Some things that are good or benign at trace levels, as found in vaccines, are demonstrably not good in higher concentrations. So, if you don’t go drinking vats of vaccine solution, you’re probably not getting toxic doses of those things with long and scary names.
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In the interests of total honesty, I was in the emergency dept on Friday night (long story), and the doctor gave me a seasonal Flu vaccine intravenously because he’d just taken blood and the tube was in there already. I don’t think this is a regular thing, or if it was actually the right thing… but it did occur.
As it is, I feel fine. No reaction here. But again, in the interest of total honesty, I did think twice about it, given my immunity was obviously already low.
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My mum was nursing in the days before vaccines. She has horror stories of kids dying of diptheria and tetanus – tetanus deaths she says were the most painful she ever witnessed. Not to mention kids crippled for life from polio. And these were country kids with good healthy immune systems. Needless to say me and by sisters and brothers are all vaccinated – and all still alive! Get your kids vaccinated.
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Vaccines Verse and Worse!
http://vactruth.com/2011/12/06/vaccines-verse-and-worse/
Each little verse has own vaccine critical message. Ref links are for digging deeper.
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There are lots of these kinds of websites.
http://www.deathbyvaccination.com
http://www.vaccinationnews.com
None of them contain factual information.
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Thanks for drawning my attention to this delusional conspiracy website as that meant I could WOT rate it.
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I used to read nonsense poetry as a kid. My favourites were Spike Milligan and Ogden Nash. But I seem to recall it being funnier than the examples you linked to.
Oh well, at least they rhymed I guess – better than the nonsense on the AVN pages.
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From Andy’s comment:-
Today, on her blog, Meryl asked…
“how did the human race ever survive before vaccines were introduced?”
“One only needs to look at history, or even to third world nations today, to see how people survived. They did it by being among those who didn’t die – and millions have died from vaccine-preventable diseases.”
Yes Andy!! You obviously believe in Darwin and his ‘survival of the fittest’ theories. I do too. In the UK, official statistics state that two children died from measles post MMR vaccine introduction. They both had serious co-morbidities which precluded vaccination and might well have died young anyway. Four, apparently healthy children are also recorded as dying after the MMR vaccine in the UK. Since vaccine damage and deaths are almost always officially denied, this will be the ‘tip of the iceberg’. There have also been H1N1 vaccine recorded deaths in Australia and ADMITTED flu vaccine caused narcolepsy in FINLAND.(NOT admitted elsewhere). The new Gardasil HPV vaccine has apparently caused more than 100 deaths worldwide, and that’s just the girls. Now they want to give this to the boys!
It’s a big shame to spoil the public perceptions about these ‘life saving’ vaccines, of which more and more seem to be prescribed for all kinds of conditions ‘life threatening’ or not, and an even bigger shame to dent the enormous profits made by vaccine manufacturers with $billions to spend on advertising and lobbying, but perhaps it is time to reconsider whether even half of these vaccines are necessary or even desirable.
NOTHING is 100% safe and official statistics have also recently identified a correlation between high vaccination levels and high levels of child co-morbidities.
I think Ms Dorey is incredibly brave to even consider speaking at a conference where “She can say what she likes as long as others can point to her and say “Dangerous, uninformed, unscientific nonsense”. But if she is barred from speaking, then the people MIGHT just wonder why?
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Pardon me Jenny; your slip is showing. Please refer below to anything written by Mia, Rick, Andy. peterbowditch, jasonbrown and hundreds of other regular sensible contributors for comments in answer to everything you’ve rehashed above.
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Not sure what you mean by rehash Kirsten, and everyone has their own polarised views about ‘sensible’. Personally, I believe in informed choice, with vaccines as with ALL medications and medical therapies and interventions. I am NOT anti vaccine, having lived through the oft quoted polio, diptheria, tuberculosis, and even smallpox vaccination era and my parents were grateful for this protection. I caught measles, mumps, german measles and chicken pox, as did everyone else in my generation. There was no lasting harm,to anyone I knew, but considerablet benefit to our immune systems. I admit reservations about vaccinations for all of these illnesses, particularly those which use live virus combinations.The HPV vaccine MIGHT prevent a sexually transmitted disease which MIGHT cause cervical cancer, which CAN be prevented by regular safe pap smears.
I enclose a few of many links about vaccine adverse incidents, with extracts. The VAERS stats apply to the US only.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/15/australia-bans-flu-vaccine.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Adverse_Event_Reporting_System
“Each year the VAERS receives 10,000–20,000 reports of adverse events following immunization. Higher-priority uses of the data include reports of death and other serious adverse events, recognizing and detecting adverse effects, and finding unexpected adverse events involving new vaccines.”
http://vaccineawakening.blogspot.com/2008/12/gardasil-deaths-injuries-money.html
“Through the end of October 2008, the government has published a list of 9,762 Gardasil- related adverse events, including 30 deaths, that have been reported to VAERS. This number does not include the Gardasil vaccine-related health problems which have been reported to the VAERS but not yet published. It is estimated that only between one and 10 percent of all serious health problems following administration of pharmaceutical products are ever reported to the government.”
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“I caught measles, mumps, german measles and chicken pox, as did everyone else in my generation. There was no lasting harm,to anyone I knew, but considerablet benefit to our immune systems.”
Much the same as no-one seems to know anyone with provable, acknowledged “vaccine damage”, huh, Jenny? Everyone my age was vaccinated, and everyone I know has vaccinated their kids, with no “vaccine damage”.
“transmitted disease which MIGHT cause cervical cancer, which CAN be prevented by regular safe pap smears.”
How does a pap smear prevent anything?
VAERS is a crock of shit. Anyone can report anything at any time as a vaccine reaction or injury. As in, I can report stubbing my toe today as a reaction to the polio vaccine I got when I was little. Try harder.
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You’re right pap smears are a cure, not a prevention, Kris. As the mother of 2 girls and as someone who has had pre-cancerous cells removed THREE TIMES I will have no hesitation vaccinating my girls and potentially saving them from that stressful and scary experience.
I’ve deliberately stayed away from this discussion and after dipping my toe in I think it was a wise choice!
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It’s not the pap smear that actually has any effect though, the smear merely finds the problems which can then be treated. By your homeopath.
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I caught the measles, mumps and german measles.
Only difference with me was- with measles I was 9 months old and I was in intensive care and my parents were told it didn’t look like I would make it.
So I very nearly became a statistic of deaths caused by measles- and I’d say that would be lasting harm.
I’d say my parents went through absolute hell.
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Were you immunized for any of those at all?
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You don’t get the measles vaccination until 12 months, so of course I was unvaccinated when I almost died from measles at 9 months.
Mumps and german measles were caught after immunisation, so they were mild cases as you’d expect.
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My mother caught german measles. It almost killed me, the developing baby. I was lucky enough to be born with a brain, and only some life-changing vision impairment for a consequence. Many other developing babies in my situation weren’t so lucky.
“I am not antivaccine” is just dissembling handwaving that means “BLARGH BAN ALL VACCINES BIG PHARMA HOMEOPATHY WHARRGBL”
We shall now await the inevitable clutching of pearls, wailing about hate speech, and the swoon into obscurity.
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Don’t forget the “you’re all so HOSTILE” whine.
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Reporting an adverse event is not proof of a causal relationship.
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Not sure what you mean by rehash Kirsten, and everyone has their own polarised views about ‘sensible’. Personally, I believe in informed choice, with vaccines as with ALL medications and medical therapies and interventions. I am NOT anti vaccine, having lived through the oft quoted polio, diptheria, tuberculosis, and even smallpox vaccination era and my parents were grateful for this protection. I caught measles, mumps, german measles and chicken pox, as did everyone else in my generation. There was no lasting harm, but considerablet benefit to our immune systems. I admit reservations about vaccinations for all of these illnesses, particularly those which use live virus combinations.The HPV vaccine MIGHT prevent a sexually transmitted disease which MIGHT cause cervical cancer, which CAN be prevented by regular safe pap smears.
I enclose a few of many links about vaccine adverse incidents, with extracts. The VAERS stats apply to the US only.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/15/australia-bans-flu-vaccine.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Adverse_Event_Reporting_System
“Each year the VAERS receives 10,000–20,000 reports of adverse events following immunization. Higher-priority uses of the data include reports of death and other serious adverse events, recognizing and detecting adverse effects, and finding unexpected adverse events involving new vaccines.”
http://vaccineawakening.blogspot.com/2008/12/gardasil-deaths-injuries-money.html
“Through the end of October 2008, the government has published a list of 9,762 Gardasil- related adverse events, including 30 deaths, that have been reported to VAERS. This number does not include the Gardasil vaccine-related health problems which have been reported to the VAERS but not yet published. It is estimated that only between one and 10 percent of all serious health problems following administration of pharmaceutical products are ever reported to the government.”
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“Each year the VAERS receives 10,000–20,000 reports of adverse events following immunization. ”
Including such notorious vaccinee reactions as turning into the incredible hulk
http://momswhovax.blogspot.com/2011/10/incredible-hulk-vaccine-side-effect-or.html
VAERS is raw, unconfirmed data and is thus utterly useless to anyone expect serious professionals with the resources to medically confirm reports. Numpty.
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VAERS is sadly misused deliberately by ambulance chasing malpractice lawyers seeking a big cut of the easy money. You know this. Stop gibbering on about it.
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Also, while I think of it – you have a vastly greater risk of injury or death whilst riding or driving on the road. By an order of magnitude. I notice you’re not screaming at the local department of main roads to ban driving licenses because they injure babies.
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If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that some vaccines have ill effects, sometimes tragic, on some people and that, whilst you have no data whatsoever, you’re pretty certain these figures are actually higher than the figures we would have if we didn’t vaccinate – all because some people make money out of making medicines and stuff.
Before anyone attempts a dedicated reply, can I ask if I’ve paraphrased you correctly?
Oh, and is there a reason why you posted a new comment instead of a reply when you were replying to me?
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You haven’t paraphrased me Andy. ALL vaccines can have adverse side effects which in some cases can be fatal. It is very important for these adverse effects to be properly monitored to ensure that the benefits of a vaccine outweigh the risks, for example one of the early monovalent measles vaccines was swiftly withdrawn in 1970 due to it causing (in the words of our family doctor) more problems than the measles. In those days doctors were free to express their opinions and concerns. These days doctors must ‘toe the government line’ in whatever country if they want to remain doctors.
As for ‘some people make money out of making medicines and stuff’?
This is very true.Vaccine and pharmaceutical manufacturer GlaxoSmithKline made around $30billion last year, a large portion from vaccines. They were also fined $3billion in the US for WRONGLY promoting unsafe medicines including Avandia. Merck was also fined around $1billion for similar misleading marketing strategies involving Vioxx. Why should we trust them??
I’ll ignore the Darwin comment. Snort as much as you like!!
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You’ve lost me. I’m now guessing you accept the benefits of vaccination but feel the side effects are under-reported? That’s a whole separate issue to Meryl Dorey who I’ve yet to see admit any vaccine benefit.
Now, some of my responses will seem glib. It’s just my style – I’m a sarcastic bastard. So bear with me if you can…
I see above you’ve mentioned VAERS. My limited understanding is that almost anything can be reported to VAERS. One infamous report (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is of a vaccine turning someone into the Incredible Hulk. The report was accepted.
I can’t comment on any conspiracy of silence because I am unaware such conspiracy exists and I suspect it’s impossible for the negative case to be proved. Given the prevalence of alternative practitioners in Australia, I personally doubt the government is trying too hard to prop up pharma companies or keep anyone toeing any line – though I accept that they could be much, much tougher on both real and alternative medicine (The CSL flu vac debacle being just one example).
I’m also a bit perturbed by your implication that millions of doctors the world over are complicit in this conspiracy for the sake of their jobs.
On the issue of profits… Parachute manufacturers make a profit. So do companies that make seat belts. Is the existence of profit, itself, evidence of a conspiracy of silence? Are seat belts far more dangerous than we’re told?
Do you research bridge engineering before you drive over one? They fail. They collapse. People die. Do you know the risks? Do you care? Does it bother you that bridge design and construction has changed over the centuries? Engineering and building companies profit from bridge building. Is this evidence of a conspiracy in the past (or present)?
I am genuinely intrigued by the “do your own research” mindset where vaccines are concerned because I see no more evidence that the issue is any more serious than bridge building.
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“I see above you’ve mentioned VAERS. My limited understanding is that almost anything can be reported to VAERS. One infamous report (mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is of a vaccine turning someone into the Incredible Hulk. The report was accepted.”
I’ve got one as good as the Incredible Hulk story. No, better, because the woman actually thinks it is a vaccine reaction. Her anecdotal story tells about her baby that was vaccinated for Hep B at birth and get this. The next day became Jaundiced for a few days. AND. Then had reflux for the first year. What a tragedy.
Welcome to motherhood lady!
There are also lots of stories about children developing regressive ASD, which has always been known to show itself between 18 and 24 months anyway.
It astounds me just how many mothers are determined to blame vaccines for things which are quite obviously unrelated.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f_s8WcfUMM
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Oh, and your mischaracterisation of Darwin’s theory made me snort a tiny bit
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Thanks for a fascinating debate here everyone. There are two streams going on: one is whether Meryl should be allowed to speak at Woodford, the other is that of pro- versus anti-vaccination (I won’t go there right now).
Regarding the first point of debate, I want to congratulate Bill Hauritz for standing his ground and not taking Meryl off the program. What do you think would happen to the Woodford festival if he cancelled a speaker, artist or musician every time they said something offensive?
Have any of you people actually BEEN to Woodford? People there say the F-word and…shock, horror… sometimes even the C-word! Offensive things happen there!!! Woo hoooooo!
It is a week-long world of differing opinions and tolerance; it’s not a place for censorship and head hunting, as some of you people seem so eager to do to Meryl Dorey.
The Woodford Folk Festival organisers provide a platform for diversity of opinion, trusting that we can make up our own minds whether we want to believe or otherwise. As Bill said, anyone who doesn’t like what Meryl has to say doesn’t have to go.
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I don’t think Ms Dorey should be taken off the program, but nor do I agree with your reasoning. Its got nothing to do with being offensive. The misinformation she spreads is a threat to public health and people’s lives. That’s quite a different thing to being just ‘offensive’.
She is not an expert, and should not be billed as such. And if they’re going to knowingly allow incorrect *health* information to be provided, then they have an obligation to provide the facts alongside it.
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I’m holding the Woodford program in my hand right now and nowhere does it say Meryl is an ‘expert’.
The AVN never tells people not to vaccinate. Their motto is ‘educate before you vaccinate’.
Unfortunately most doctors don’t give patients the full picture when discussing vaccination with them, so the AVN tries to provide the information that doctor’s don’t. Their mission is not to threaten public health and people’s lives, but to help.
The reason statistics show side effects from vaccinations to be so small is because doctors don’t report them. If they were reported accurately, the stats might be very different.
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So the times when Meryl called vaccinations ‘rape’ and so forth are her arguing reasonably for choice?
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When did Meryl call vaccination ‘rape’ Rick?
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I have a picture for you.
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Wow. That Rape comment really solidifies what I should think of her. That’s absolute nonsense and I guess, so is everything else she says. Grr, I’m so offended she even considered it to be in the same league as rape.
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Ok Rick, thanks for that link. Yeah, well calling it ‘rape’ is over the top. Still, no court should be forcing vaccination on children.
The problem is that no double blind studies can be done on vaccines to ascertain their efficacy or accurately measure their side effects.
Plus they are full of toxins and we have no way of knowing how they are affecting our immune systems long-term.
Have you ever read the list of ingredients of a vaccine?
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I have done quite a bit of reading on vaccine ingredient. Problem is, you need to know the detail about what those ingredients mean. Like so: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
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“Still, no court should be forcing vaccination on children.”
It didn’t. It was a mother/father dispute. The court decided in favour of the father who wanted the daughter vaccinated. You’re allowing Meryl’s mischaracterisation of the issue to colour your judgement.
And yet, if you look at this specific case, you’ll see Meryl’s anti-vax stance clear as day since, had she been neutral, she wouldn’t side with either the father or the mother. Clearly she did not support the father’s pro-vax stance so in what way is she pro-choice?
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Thanks for the link to the other Mamamia post on vaccination Rick. She certainly makes some valid points. There are valid arguments against most of them, though, if people care to inform themselves.
I don’t have the time to debate all the pros and cons of vaccination here. People who are truly interested in the truth can seek it out for themselves — and that means looking at BOTH sides of the issue objectively. Not a lot of that going on in this forum unfortunately.
My reason for joining in to this debate was to back up the Woodford Festival in not cancelling Meryl’s talks.
You can’t run a festival as large and successful as Woodford by allowing yourself to be subject to the hysterical rants of every conservative, closed-minded person who disagrees with the programming.
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It’s funny you think we’re conservative! I think you assume people like me haven’t looked at the other ‘side’ of the debate. We have. So have the actual experts. So have the scientists. So have the HCCC. And it has resoundingly and spectacularly been proved false and inaccurate.
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“…hysterical rants of every conservative close-minded person….”
Really? Is that what you truly think after reading all the comments on this post?
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I’ve looked at both sides, just as I’ve looked at both sides of Holocaust denial, the moon landing “hoax”, the “research” of 9/11 Truthers, AIDS denial, …
But sometimes the other side just isn’t there.
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Gah! It’s CLOSED-MINDED, not close-minded. Blarrgh! ENGLISH PEDANT HULK SMASH.
I don’t for a minute think that you “don’t have time to debate this here” – I would suggest that you’ve realised that your world-view (Big pharma bad! Natural things good!) is under threat, and you’re skedaddling. Please, don’t just return to the echo-chamber. Take some time out, think about false-equivalence and the balance of evidence, read some of the excellent debunking work that’s out there, waiting to be read.
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By ‘looking’ at both sides of the argument, I mean actually reading the information with an objective mind, not just branding stuff as kooky alternative unresearched crap.
Many of you cite the wisdom of the ‘expert’s (I assume you mean doctors, scientists and pharmocs). Doctors aren’t always right. Either are scientists (many of whom are paid by pharmcos). Not even experts are always right.
I can look at the pro-vaccination side and see that many vaccines do in fact work and have less side effects than others. Fair enough. (But not all of them work, some have serious side effects and we can’t know the long-term effect on our immune system).
I chose to give my son only the DTP vaccine, because I wanted the tetanus vaccine but it was impossible to get it separated from the others (it seems they want to combine as many vaccines into one as possible these days).
Regarding the herd immunity argument, vaccination does not necessarily confer immunity. Plus, live vaccines can cause people to develop a full blown case of the disease and pass it on.
Yes, I have found some of the comments on this debate hysterical and uninformed, and there are many points that haven’t yet been covered:
• Why has Japan raised the vaccination age of some childhood vaccines to 2 years old?
• Do you think doctors are more motivated to vaccinate because they are paid per child vaccinated?
• Do you think pharmcos don’t have any influence over government health departments, doctors and scientists?
• Why are newborn babies given a Hep B vaccination?
I’m not one to be easily satisfied with the status quo arguments, but I totally understand why people choose to vaccinate and support their right to choose.
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I agree that words like ‘alternative’ and ‘kooky’ are not helpful, in the same way that ‘hysterical’ and ‘conservative’ are not. Whether something is researched or unresearched, though, actually means something, and is easily measured (assuming you’re not using ‘researched’ in the sense of ‘googled’).
I have confidence in scientific information because of the way it is developed. Scientists develop hypotheses about what they think might be the case, and then they test them, thoroughly and repeatedly. They compile objective data and analyse them to eliminate coincidence and distortion. And then they subject their conclusions to rigorous review by others equally, or more, qualified. So when I read information that I know has come out of that process, I am inclined to accept it, even if I don’t fully understand it.
I am much less inclined to accept information from someone who has developed an hypothesis, collected unverified, incomplete and distorted stories to support it, and then repeated it as fact loudly and aggressively.
This is what being open-minded is about – evaluating the source of information. It has nothing to do with accepting or not-accepting what you consider to be status quo.
And yes, it is true that scientists and doctors are not always right. Also true that unethical individuals can be found in any group or profession. The beauty of the scientific process is that both flaws and fraud are eventually identified, as happened with ex-Dr Andrew Wakefield for example.
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“Why has Japan raised the vaccination age of some childhood vaccines to 2 years old?”
They raised it & then later changed it back to the original ages – due to the increase in deaths due to preventable, vaccinatable diseases. Autism rates did not change during any of the vaccination age changes.
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“Plus, live vaccines can cause people to develop a full blown case of the disease and pass it on.”
In Australia? Which one?
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every single one of those points has been answered in this post and the one that Rick linked to. Over and over and over and over…..
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Thanks Bowerbird. Yes I too believe the scientific method is a good one, however there are plenty of scientists who skew their information to receive funding. It’s common knowledge.
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Not plenty. Just a few. Like Andrew Wakefield, whose discredited study was funded by lawyers who were attempting to sue the MMR vaccine makers in court? He got found out. And struck off the medical board.
The scientific community is pretty good in outing the dodgy researchers. Laymen Googlemeisters – not so much.
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Common knowledge? Common knowledge also tells people that butter is good for burns, and that Wolverine is an X-man. It doesn’t mean that it is in any way an accurate description of what actually is.
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See, this just baffles me. You make a sweeping generalisation, casting aspersions on the professional integrity of a whole bunch of people you’ve never even met. You try and justify it on the grounds of that most nebulous and subjective of things, “common knowledge”.
Yet you are prepared to both accept and defend the ravings of an individual who has been investigated and specifically found to misrepresent and distort the truth (let alone her other appallingly unethical behaviours).
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Snerd, I did say ‘closed-minded’ not ‘close-minded’.
No my world view is not ‘big pharma bad, natural good’. Not by a long stretch. I just choose not to have my head in the sand.
When I asked my doctor about the risks of vaccination I was given a tiny little brochure with hardly any information on it. When I asked her to answer some questions (such as those I have already asked here with the bullet points that no-one on this forum has answered), she couldn’t answer either. Fancy that, a doctor who doesn’t know everything.
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Head in the sand? What? Whenever my son was immunized, we were given sheets with exhaustive lists of facts, including ingredients, potential reactions and risks, things to look for, the works. I’ve got them all.
Regarding your bullet points – they have been fully answered, here and elsewhere. It really doesn’t take much more google-fu to find this stuff out than it does to trawl the various antivax websites. Try http://antiantivax.flurf.net/ just for one.
Viz my grammar rant, it was more of a general rant than a specific one in this case. Apologies, that does read badly.
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Thanks Snerd, I’ll check that link out.
The information doctors give you is written by the people who make the vaccines. They’re hardly going to give an objective risk or efficacy assessment.
No one can really, since vaccine reactions are not usually reported by doctors (therefore the stats on reactions are wrong) and there have been no double-blind studies done either.
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Ok, we’re into an area where politeness is harder to come by now. The information I have on my info sheets is full of phrases like “rare side effects, not limited to seizures, fevers, brain swelling” and other horrific outcomes. I’m failing to see how much more informative you’d need them to be.
You are solidly into conspiracy theory zeitgeist now: no information can be trusted, except from a source that fits your worldview. No evidence will be sufficient to change your mind, as all evidence is tainted unless it comes from your trusted gurus. All doctors are in the pay of big pharma, they only care about free golf clubs and laugh when their patients suffer as it means more filthy lucre for them. They care nothing for their own family or friends, because there is a conspiracy of thieves reaching to the highest level of government. And this must have been carrying on for centuries!
You keep harping on about double-blinded tests. I assume you know very well that a double-blinded test that has a choice of terrible complications of a disease (or death), and vaccine injury, is unethical in the extreme and would never be approved. Thus; you are being disingenuous and dissembling. Please prove me wrong. And don’t do the pearl-clutching and accuse me of being rude or disrespectful: nobody cares about your feeling here. The subject matter is too important.
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“The information doctors give you is written by the people who make the vaccines. They’re hardly going to give an objective risk or efficacy assessment.”
Oh for Christ’s sake, this is just getting silly. Toyota produce the various repair manuals for their cars – does this mean we shouldn’t buy Toyotas?
You’re going to have to start getting specific instead of asking vague conspiratorial questions. If you have evidence of vaccine fraud, produce it. I’ve no doubt there’s some out there – no one thinks Big Pharma is run by angels.
Your bulleted list of questions is just that – a list of questions. Do you have answers? If not, why do the questions concern you so much?
• Why has Japan raised the vaccination age of some childhood vaccines to 2 years old?
Why is the drinking age in America higher than Australia and the driving age lower? Must be conspiracy.
• Do you think doctors are more motivated to vaccinate because they are paid per child vaccinated?
Do you think auto-engineers are motivated to fit seat belts in cars because they profit from them? Do you think parachute makers attach strings to the silk because they make more money that way?
• Do you think pharmcos don’t have any influence over government health departments, doctors and scientists?
Look at the prevalence of alt-med in Australia despite a complete lack of evidence for most it. Do you think alt-med doesn’t have any influence over government health departments, naturopaths and pseudoscientists?
• Why are newborn babies given a Hep B vaccination?
Why are newborn babies given breast milk? Damn, there must be a conspiracy there when you consider how widespread that practice is.
Why do some Lego blocks have eight bumps on top when others get by with four?
Why do we bitumise roads when we got by with gravel for centuries?
Why do we wear clothes?
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Checking back after a few days. As I suspected, crickets, tumbleweeds. When you pull aside the WAAAAH BIG PHARMA CONSPIRACY curtain, you only ever find Meryl frantically pushing buttons and pulling levers.
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The promotion online says…
“Investigate before you vaccinate is the motto of the AVN. Having collected reports of thousands of Australian families whose children have been killed or injured by these shots, Meryl knows that the benefits of vaccines don’t always outweigh the risks. Her information is sourced from medical data and is necessary for anyone who has a family or is thinking about being vaccinated.”
The NSW Health Care complaints Commission, on the other hand, says the AVN website…
“_ provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
_ contains information that is incorrect and misleading
_ quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.”
Since we agree she’s not an expert, can you explain why Woodford would say her information is “necessary for anyone who has a family or is thinking about being vaccinated”?
I’m not certain that dropping her at this stage would achieve much. It might, it might not. I have no experience or data to make that call. What’s important, to me, is that she should probably have never been on the speakers list.
And if you think the pro-vax people posting here would be remotely concerned by a few F-bombs or C-bombs, you need to do some reading. In fact, from her Facebook page it seems Meryl Dorey is more concerned by such things. The pro-vax camp are more concerned about the relatively minor issue of children dying from preventable diseases.
Edited to add: The AVN also sell t-shirts that say “love them, protect them, NEVER inject them”. So, unless my grasp of English is far, far worse that I could ever conceive, I’m pretty sure they do tell people not to vaccinate.
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Not everyone at the Woodford festival is an expert but they are given a platform to discuss differing views. It’s a cutting-edge festival, so there are many minority views expressed there. As Bill Hauritz said, anyone who doesn’t like it, doesn’t have to go.
The information Meryl shares is largely case studies of people with children who have been severely affected by vaccines. She is trying to address the imbalanced information caused by doctors’ unwillingness to report vaccine reactions. So for people who want to hear the truth about vaccine reactions and how common they are, she has thousands upon thousands of accounts to share.
It is hard for parents to accurately weigh up whether the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks when they’re not given the full picture.
I didn’t know that about the T-shirts. I checked their website and didn’t see any with that slogan on there. Meryl always used to say they don’t tell people not to vaccinate. Perhaps she’s become more hardcore of late. I can’t judge that because I haven’t seen the T-shirt and haven’t ever heard Meryl herself tell anyone not to vaccinate.
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Always with the children “severely affected by vaccines” vagueness! What’s with that? WHAT effects? Doctors unwilling to report WHAT vaccine reactions? If you want to sound credible, the least you could do is enlighten us with legitimate specifics, because that is what the science on your so called “other side of the debate does.
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Hint: Meryl is a documented teller of untruths, and has been known to selectively edit the history of the AVN and herself. It’s not hard to find this out, unless you believe the Reptoids are churning out false data to crush all opposition.
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“It is hard for parents to accurately weigh up whether the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks when they’re not given the full picture.”
It’s even harder when they’re lied to or fed egregiously false information. Meryl has uncritically linked to an article claiming vaccination is intended to commit genocide, written by a man who insists the world is controlled by lizard people. How does this help parent weigh things up?
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They are still there. I just checked. This is why some people’s version of research is called into question.
She has also equated vaccination with rape, as pointed out above.
In 2008, she wrote “There will come a time – I pray to God that it will happen in my lifetime – when those who have pushed vaccines upon innocent, helpless babies – doctors, pharmaceutical companies, government officials – will be proven to have lied and cheated these instruments of death into our children’s bloodstream.”
http://www.flickr.com/photos/djackmanson/4337067016/lightbox/
I think the problem might be that, while you ascribe ulterior motives to vaccine makers, you take Meryl Dorey at her word. Why?
Try reading this, especially the findings of the charity investigation…
http://luckylosing.com/2011/12/15/meryl-dorey-and-the-woodford-free-speech-democracy-thing/
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Andy’s response above has thoroughly addressed the question of AVN’s real agenda. I can only add, on a personal note, that I live in a region with very low vaccination rates. It happens to be the same region in which Ms Dorey lives and there is no doubt in my mind, having spoken to many parents who have chosen not to vaccinate, that the two are connected. That, in my mind, makes them a threat to public health, whether they acknowledge it as their ‘mission’ or not.
The motto you quote, ‘educate before you vaccinate’, is totally meretricious, given the AVN’s repeated use of unsubstantiated (such as ‘doctors don’t report side-effects’) and totally discredited claims.
Education requires minimum standards on the *quality* of information provided. The AVN fails on this count.
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“Love them, Protect them, Never inject them”
I see that underreporting of side effects is now the new antivax talking point. Sigh.
Apparently, all doctors, everywhere, are in on the vast conspiracy to reject the Hippocratic oath for free golf clubs, or something. Also, all nurses, all employees of government health departments, all employees of pharmaceutical companies, and all their families. Unhinged, delusional thinking.
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Today, on her blog, Meryl asked…
“how did the human race ever survive before vaccines were introduced?”
One only needs to look at history, or even to third world nations today, to see how people survived. They did it by being among those who didn’t die – and millions have died from vaccine-preventable diseases.
It’s the same with war or famine or flood or earthquake. Some people survive. Those people get to reproduce, after burying the dead, and the human race continues. Does this mean we should do nothing to minimise risk from these things? No Tsunami warnings? No flood-proof engineering? No peace rallies? After all, people survived without such things.
As is so often the case, her question is callously nonsensical.
What Meryl doesn’t seem to notice, with a similarly casual attitude, is that generations of people have also survived vaccination. Given that, why does she oppose it?
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from Wikipedia
There have been a number of significant pandemics recorded in human history, generally zoonoses which came about with domestication of animals, such as influenza and tuberculosis. There have been a number of particularly significant epidemics that deserve mention above the “mere” destruction of cities:
Antonine Plague, 165–180. Possibly smallpox brought to the Italian peninsula by soldiers returning from the Near East; it killed a quarter of those infected, and up to five million in all.[11] At the height of a second outbreak, the Plague of Cyprian (251–266), which may have been the same disease, 5,000 people a day were said to be dying in Rome.
Plague of Justinian, from 541 to 750, was the first recorded outbreak of the bubonic plague. It started in Egypt, and reached Constantinople the following spring, killing (according to the Byzantine chronicler Procopius) 10,000 a day at its height, and perhaps 40% of the city’s inhabitants. The plague went on to eliminate a quarter to a half of the human population that it struck throughout the known world.[12][13] It caused Europe’s population to drop by around 50% between 550 and 700.[14]
Black Death, started 14th century. The total number of deaths worldwide is estimated at 75 million people.[15] Eight hundred years after the last outbreak, the plague returned to Europe. Starting in Asia, the disease reached Mediterranean and western Europe in 1348 (possibly from Italian merchants fleeing fighting in the Crimea), and killed an estimated 20 to 30 million Europeans in six years;[16] a third of the total population,[17] and up to a half in the worst-affected urban areas.[18] It was the first of a cycle of European plague epidemics that continued until the 18th century.[19] During this period, more than 100 plague epidemics swept across Europe.[20] In England, for example, epidemics would continue in two to five-year cycles from 1361 to 1480.[21] By the 1370s, England’s population was reduced by 50%.[22] The Great Plague of London of 1665–66 was the last major outbreak of the plague in England. The disease killed approximately 100,000 people, 20% of London’s population.[23]
Third Pandemic, started in China in the middle of the 19th century, spreading plague to all inhabited continents and killing 10 million people in India alone.[24] During this pandemic, the United States saw its first case of plague in 1900 in San Francisco.[25] Today, isolated cases of plague are still found in the western United States.[26]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic
7 Worst Killer Plagues in history: http://www.oddee.com/item_90608.aspx
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Tell me, antivaxxers and those on the fence about the “debate”, do you understand the following mechanism?
Adoptive transfer of immune CD4+ T cells was sufficient to confer immunity to naïve RAG1−/− mice. A critical role of interleukin (IL)-17A was demonstrated: mice lacking interferon-γ or IL-4 were protected, but not mice lacking IL-17A receptor or mice with neutrophil depletion. In vitro expression of IL-17A in response to pneumococci was assayed: lymphoid tissue from vaccinated mice expressed significantly more IL-17A than controls, and IL-17A expression from peripheral blood samples from immunized mice predicted protection in vivo.
(Taken from a research article http://www.plospathogens.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.ppat.1000159)
This is the language of immunologists.. See how it differs from the incredibly SIMPLISTIC statements spouted by Meryl Dorey. What she says is not based on research. At all. She cherry picks and dumbs it down for her audience, and too many people are swayed into thinking what they read of Meryl Dorey and other antivax sites is true research. It is not.
She has laymans understanding of immunology, if that.
I don’t profess to understand it completelyeither – it is so very mind-blowingly complex.
BUT I trust that the experts, who are so incredibly experienced with the process, who have studied and in most cases devoted decades to researching.
And so should you, general public. Don’t insult the real researchers by regurgitating the simplistic versions of anti-vax pseudoscience that Meryl Dorey bleats.
I SO want to believe you are all smart enough to recognise the difference.
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It is way over my high-school-chemisty-level head. I only worked out this week that IgA actually begins with a capital “i”, not a lowercase “L”. And I still don’t really know what it means except that it’s something to do with immunoglobulin – and I don’t know what that is beyond what I can grasp from wikipedia.
I’m the same with cars and electronics and structural engineering. When my computer breaks down, I don’t read a website written by a haridresser who’s never lifted the lid on a computer, to find out how I might fix it myself. Similarly, I wouldn’t let someone try to fix it by waving a crystal over it. I trust people who do electronics for a living to sort it out for me.
I also trust that seat belts are designed according to the best currently-available information on vehicle safety. I don’t spend weeks “researching” seat belts to see if Big-Auto is trying to kill me. I also expect seat belt technology, like vaccines, to change in my lifetime and I see this as a good thing, not an indication that seat belts were always a bad idea.
The anti-vax lobby might be horrified to know that I’ve also driven over bridges despite never reading a structural engineering book – not even one written by a crochet champion – and despite the fact that there is ample evidence that bridges sometimes fail and that people die when they do.
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Over the past few days I’ve fallen more than a tiny bit in love with you Andy.
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You’re only human.
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That hurt my head, thanks for that!
My interpretation of that is something to do with rats (or parts of) being injected with pneumococcal vaccine and the vaccinated ones produced more interleukin 17 (IL17a) than the control ones, which is a predictor of immunity. IL17 being some kind of protein produced by lymphoid tissue that increases antibody production or something like that…
It’s kind of interesting despite the complexity of it. I should have done a science degree!
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Show your support guys!
Social Media is the best place to get the word out!:
http://www.facebook.com/stopavn
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Speaking to Gary Hardgrave on 4BC Drive this afternoon re Dorey/Woodford scandal – just after 5pm news (Qld time).
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I think it is important for all sides to be heard. This is Australia. Free speech is not against the law. We, as citizens deserve all types of information to make our own decisions. I think it is important to have a choice, no matter what it is regarding. By witch-hunting people who don’t have the same opinions as you – you are doing yourself and this country an injustice. Having someone remind you to research things you don’t know and make your own decision is not a bad thing….
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Ms Dorey has been found by the Health Care Complaints Commission to be disseminating biased, false and misleading information. There is a public health warning against her. This is not a matter of someone having an ‘opinion’. This is a matter of someone who wilfully and deliberately provides false and dangerous information to parents that WILL (not IF) endanger their children’s lives and the lives of other children.
This is not just our opinion. This is the finding after a 12 month investigation into her activities.
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First of all, it’s not a free speech issue. Laying aside the fact that Australia HAS no free speech statute, and laying aside “falsely yelling fire in a crowded theatre”, the issue here is about the promotion of Meryl’s absurd opinions out of proportion to their truth value.
She can stand on a soapbox and rant as much as she wants – that’s free speech. She should not be handed a megaphone and an audience, ESPECIALLY at an event partly funded by the public purse.
Secondly, the “both sides of the story” rhetoric is tired and hackneyed. IN this case, the two sides of the story are as follows:
The truth (Medical Science)
The nonsense (Dorey)
The two are not equally valid, and to suggest they are shows a woeful ignorance of reality.
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You are assuming that there are two sides to the story. There would be if there were any valid arguments against vaccination, but there aren’t any of those.
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PC? I am fascinated to know why you think your own “research” is as valid as, let alone superior to, that which has already been done by scientists and governments all over the world.
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___”We, as citizens deserve all types of information to make our own decisions”
Even demonstrably wrong information? Even completely misinformed information? Even lies dressed up as science?
What use are these to people seeking to make properly informed decisions?
___”I think it is important to have a choice, no matter what it is regarding.”
You have that choice in vaccination. You don’t really have it with seat belts or road speed or not beating your kids – but you do have it with vaccinations. The government even willingly funds the choice not to vaccinate.
But that doesn’t mean people should not be allowed to protest against those who use fear to spread dangerous misinformation.
I know you’ve received similar replies above but it seems these points can’t be made often enough because people who keep telling us they’ve “done thorough research” still don’t seem to have found this information.
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“For the sake of balance, we must now turn to Barry, who believes the sky is a carpet painted by God.”
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I thought it was a tent – but that would be another other side.
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PC? I hereby invoke Jack of Kent’s law upon thee!
Jack of Kent’s law: The longer any person or entity is placed under any deliberate and sustained scrutiny, the probability of someone complaining of it being a “witch-hunt” approaches 1.
http://www.davethehappysinger.com/blog/2011/11/20/jack-of-kents-law-australian-vaccination-network-witch-hunt/
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Interesting… the ABC and JJJ logos have both been removed from the Sponsor page at Woodford FF website.
I still haven’t had a response from my last email to the Manager of the local ABC station but I have a sneaking suspicion that the emails of many have swayed his opinion.
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Interesting indeed!
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Update on this, it seems that the logos have been moved from “sponsors” to “media partners”. Though I think they may have been there all along and *have* been removed from the sponsors page
We’re still waiting on the official word from JJJ, though.
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Yeah, I saw that this morning. I wish I’d collected screen shots earlier.
I wonder whether the ABC and JJJ think that by becoming ‘media partners’ not ‘sponsors’ they have now resolved the issue? If they’re not providing financial support, just advertising the event, that’s not at odds with the ABC charter?
Interestingly, the local ABC site is running a competition to win tickets to the event. http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2010/12/01/3081656.htm
Win a ticket to Woodford and take away a communicable disease for free!
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Statement from Queensland Health Minister. Excellent – but still doesn’t go far enough. Why, given this stance, is the Queensland Government still sponsoring this event – and will they sponsor it next year if Dorey is allowed to speak?
http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=78177
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Queensland Health Minister, Geoff Wilson, strongly rumoured to be giving a statement on Dorey and the Woodford Folk Festival scandal at 1pm Queensland time today – that’s about 20 minutes time. Have recorded interview with Channel 10 Qld – whether it will air may depend on whether Wilson does make a statement and what he says.
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This post has raised a question in my mind. A few weeks ago I went and stayed overnight with a friend who I haven’t seen for years. I took my 10 month old with me. Watching the way this friend lives her life, it occurred to my that she had perhaps decided not to vaccinate her 6 year old (she is pregnant with number 2). I think I would have very reluctant to stay the night had I known her child was unvaccinated. My question is should I have asked? Have anti-vac people had friends make decisions based on this in the past?
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If you believe vaccines work, why are you worried about your child being exposed to an unvaccinated child?
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Because the babies who die from communicable diseases like whooping cough are too you g to be vaccinated.
Is that the best you can do?
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Laughably, yes, Mia, it is the best they can do a lot of the time.
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I seem to remember 10 months is old enough to have had the first round of vaccines? And that includes the pertussis vaccine.
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You need three rounds for the first ones to be effective. Some aren’t encountered until 12 months and older. If her friend’s unvaccinated kid hasn’t got immunity, and gets a vaccine preventable disease, that can then be passed on to her 10 month old who hasn’t developed their full immunity yet.
One of the main arguments against vaccination is that “their little bodies can’t handle the load of the (tiny amounts of) illnesses in vaccines”. But apparently they can handle the actual full blown illness?
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And then there are the folk who are immuno-compromised and *can’t* get vaccinated, even though they might wish to. Their only protection is herd immunity.
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If you’re wearing a seat belt, why do you care if I drive drunk and speed?
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Also, no vaccine is 100% effective. There will be a (small) percentage of people for whom the vaccination is not effective. These people are also protected by herd immunity.
20 years ago my fully vaccinated daughter contracted measles from an unvaccinated child. It was a particularly frightening experience. Why anyone would be deluded enough to want a child to contract any of these diseases is beyond me.
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From my conversations with doctors, some vaccinations don’t cover fully until the third dose. And my little one certainly hasn’t yet had the MMR or chicken pox one. I am genuinely interested to know what people think from all aspects of the debate… how do you go about asking? Does this divide us into a society of us and them? She is an old dear friend and I am quite nervous about opening this can of worms with her. I am fully aware that my child’s health is my responsibility and so I should just suck it up and ask. My tactic is avoidance at the moment until it needs to be asked.
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Palmarin, if you are looking at all sides, you won’t get them here.
You may as well ask your friend or it’ll fester on your mind the longer you leave it. I’m sure she’d be happy to talk about it, whichever way. Maybe you won’t agree with her but then there are always things people disagree on in relationships.
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Biff, from what I have been reading, there seems to be a large number of sides represented here. I wasn’t looking to debate deciding to vaccinate, I was just looking at how these decisions might affect day to day interactions. If I make this decision about my friend, how I am to know whether the child who befriends my 2 year old in the park is in the same situation?
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You won’t know.
You could ask, but how far do you go? Do you ask everyone that comes within a certain distance of your child?
You are never going to know the vaccine status of everyone. Child or adult.
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That’s right I won’t know. I have no idea where to draw the line. I have always been the “crawl on the ground!”, “eat the dirt!’ and “whoops you just ate that biscuit after playing with the cat!” mother but I feel really anxious about this issue. I feel like I have made this decision for my children but actually, it is the people around them who have an impact as well. It makes me feel powerless.
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You are not powerless.
If your children live a healthy lifestyle and have a strong immune system they will be able to fend off most things.
We live in a sea of bacteria and viruses. You can’t kill all of them. If you try they often mutate into new versions. They want to live, just like the rest of us.
You can only create an environment that does not attract them.
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Hmmm. That logic does not work if you are newborn. There will always be vulnerable ones in our society and I can’t help but think we should do all we can to protect them.
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If “Biff’s” comments are useful for anything, at least they give people the opportunity to de-bunk all the old anti-vax canards.
Thanks, Biff.
What next? Big Pharma (they don’t make much money from vax – more from infections), conspiracy (all over the world??), hidden data (the studies are all out in the open), Why worry about vaccinated children? (not 100% effective, some too young); poisons (dilution and removal); don’t believe vaccnes work (but the diseases reduce or disappear); but death rates reduce due to improved hygiene and nutrition (what about HiB?) etc etc etc. Do you have more?
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Because a) occasionally vaccinated individuals do not seroconvert into a fully immune status. and
b) a 10 month old has not had enough time to develop the full immunity.
These are the innocents that need the protection of herd immunity. Palmarin has no way of knowing whether her baby may may not be fully immune by 10 months.
Herd immunity. It’s a For-the-Good-of-Your-Community kind of a thing. Antivaxxers are showing themselves to be a little vague on the concept.
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Palmarin,
You didn’t really get an answer to your question – but that’s probably a good thing. It’s an interesting but difficult question and if the commentary here should teach us anything, it is “don’t rely on strangers on the internet for important advice”.
Your best bet is probably to be guided by your own conscience, family, friends or, if this is causing serious anxiety for you, you might want to speak to a professional, maybe your GP. BUT – remember, I’m just a stranger on the internet. I don’t know you and you don’ know me. And I’m not a psychologist or doctor or anything special so you can take my thoughts on the matter with a grain of salt.
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Andy, thanks for you concern and thoughtful response. I guess I was just putting it out there to see how other people may have dealt with this experience. I feel sad that this issue might have consequences for my friendship but I have it all in perspective. No wallowing in self pity here!
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No probs. Hope it all works out. It’s a dilemma I expect to have to deal with more closely when grand kids come along.
It’s a shame if the reasons for not vaxxing are solely the result of ill-informed ideology.
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Palmarin – it’s a really difficult one. I have a best friend who I know doesn’t vaccinate. I was not as passionate about vaccination when I found this out (in fact, it was what egged me into finding out more about the topic), and I didn’t have any children. I have successfully managed to avoid the horrible discussion (as she lives half a world away) but I know I couldn’t these days, were we in the same city, now I have three small children. It’s not a pleasant situation to be in – I guess I think that yes, I will ask when I think it’s necessary. Interesting issue – thanks for raising it.
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Some conjecture Qld Health Minister may become involved in this. Let him know how you feel: Please phone Qld Health Minister Geoff Wilson re Dorey/@WoodfordFF (BE POLITE). (07) 3234 1191 Email: health@ministerial.qld.gov.au
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Email sent.
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There’s an article on the ABC website about this now: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3731884.html
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Wow! Over 300 comments already.
This has turned out to be a very popular topic indeed.
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This is what happens on the “champion of free speech”‘s facebook page when you ask too many questions and disagree:
“If you would please read the page information, this is a page for fans of the AVN. If you would like to debate the issues, please join our respectful debate page on googlegroups. If you can’t find it, scroll through the Facebook page – I have sent the information out just recently.”
That’s Meryl’s response to Kate asking about how she’s being plugged at Woodford.
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Perhaps the Mamamia team could put together a picture gallery of children around the world suffering from vaccine preventable diseases to remind those who are against vaccination what the point of them is!!!
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What a great idea. It would be interesting to see pictures of all the children who have died of smallpox, diphtheria, polio, whooping cough or measles in Australia in the last 5 years.
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I second that notion. And maybe some awsome statistics to go with it showing rates of disease in areas of with low rates of immunisation compared with areas of high immunisation.
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It’s a good thing no-one travels to or from Australia, isn’t it, Biff?
Here’s a diphtheria one, just to get the ball rolling:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/brisbane-woman-dies-from-diphtheria/story-e6frf7jx-1226048998159
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Here’s the original article about Dana McCaffery from 2009:
http://www.northernstar.com.au/story/2009/03/12/whooping-cough-claims-life-of-Lennox-Head-infant/
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I might be wrong Kris, but I don’t think Biff actually expected any pictures.
There was also a five-week-old baby boy in Adelaide who died of WC in October last year. He spent four of those five weeks in hospital.
And there was a 14-day-old Bendigo baby who died of WC in February this year. Picture at
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/familys-plea-over-babys-whooping-cough-death-20110218-1aynl.html
I have no desire to even search for more.
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No sooner said than done.
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/vaxpictures.htm
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How anyone would prefer to support this reality is beyond me.
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Nora, If you believe vaccines are effective, you may wonder why people do not choose to vaccinate.
Some people do not believe vaccines prevent disease, and see a vaccination as a risky procedure with no benefit.
I do not believe vaccinating would prevent the pictures you see in the link, therefore seeing these pictures doesn’t persuade me to vaccinate. I just see a lot of ill children who may or may not have been vaccinated.
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*Head-desk*
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Well thanks for screwing the rest of us over.
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How am I doing that exactly Gary?
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“Some people do not believe vaccines prevent disease, and see a vaccination as a risky procedure with no benefit.”
They sure do. Pardom me while I laugh at your ignorance and your conviction that you know better than 99.99% of doctors and scientists. You see, I’m a really mean person; I also laugh at adults who believe in the tooth fairy.
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“Some people do not believe vaccines prevent disease, and see a vaccination as a risky procedure with no benefit.”
Some people believe the Queen is a shape-shifting reptile. Meryl Dorey linked to an article written by one such person.
Some people believe the Earth lies at the centre of the universe and that our sun revolves around it.
In this world there are Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and many, many more people of differing religious beliefs. They cannot all be right.
But vaccination is not about belief. Pertussis doesn’t care if you believe in it or not just like a rottweiler guard dog doesn’t care, just like a thirsty mosquito doesn’t care. You can sit in denial all you like, they don’t give a toss.
Risking your child’s life on the basis of belief is what has landed quite a few parents in jail in the last few years as they’ve relied on prayer or homeopathy of other forms of “belief” to ward off their child’s ills, with fatal results.
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Cases of disease in Australia 2002 – 2007. http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi34suppl.htm~cda-cdi34suppl-appendix-6-2.htm
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Are you trying to strengthen my case on the effectiveness of widespread vaccination or is it accidental?
“Diphtheria is rare in most developed countries because of the widespread use of the diphtheria vaccine.”
Taken from the better health government website
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Diphtheria
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Diptheria and many other childhood diseases were already well in decline before vaccination was introduced. And the vaccine did not change the level of decline. http://childhealthsafety.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/us-deaths-1900-1965.gif
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That’s a mortality graph not an incidence graph. On its own, it does not support your statement.
And it seems to demonstrate the effectiveness of the antitoxin – once you’ve got the infection.
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Good on you Bill for allowing her speak at the festival. More people can perhaps understand there are risks involved with the amount of vaccinations given to young, developing immune systems. There are never real ‘facts’ just interpretations, that’s the way it’s always been. It makes me sick that Mammamia is so close minded. Unsubscribe.
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Please do point out where it has been stated that vaccinations are entirely without risk. Do you ever drive a car or ride a bicycle, I wonder?
I wish I was able to choose interpretations over facts – I’ve always wanted to fly, and incinerate the old school bully with my heat vision.
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Sick? Like in the same way unvaccinated babies get sick and sometimes die? That kind of sick?
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No maybe sick, as in, what happened to a good friend of mine’s daughter who became very ill immediately after her measles,mumps rubella injection and from that point was not the same child. She has learning disabilities and is not able to focus on tasks. Rick, like all things, life is not black and white, and although vaccinations have proven to benefit society, maybe we should consider not giving young developing immune systems so many at once.
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Your friends daughter is a very rare case and a very sad one indeed. I don’t think anyone lacks compassion when it comes to these cases.
But the number of children severely affected or killed by measles, mumps and rubella as a result of not being immunised is much much much much higher.
I think it becomes harder to be objective when you are close to a case as you are to your friend’s daughter. But that doesn’t change the facts about immunisation. It saves lives.
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I actually have a theory that on some level people know their kids are ASD/ADHD/whatever, and wait until they’ve had their MMR to “blame” it on something.
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I am old enough to have had measles, mumps and rubella, before the vaccine came out. My sisters and friends all had them too. They were a part of growing up. No one died. Mumps and Rubella were particularly mild. I was annoyed my mum wouldn’t let me go out and play when I had them. Occasionally someone went to the doctor with measles, but most didn’t. Maybe people occasionally went to the hospital, but I never knew of anyone.
With the level of scaremongering about these diseases these days, anyone would think it was bubonic plague! But it’s good marketing.
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Buff, perhaps you might like an introduction to some of the parents whose babies have dies from these ‘mild’ diseases like whooping cough.
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Are you TOTALLY stupid?????? So because you didn’t die or have severe complications, and neither did your friends, then it’s ok to live in a bubble where the thousands of people who did don’t exist?
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Yeah, Biff I had mumps or Measles when my Mum was in hospital having my little brother and sister in the 70s. Those crazy heartless bastards wouldn’t let me in to see my Mummy and week old brother and sister! Big meanies protecting newborn babies.
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Bah Boom Ching? Now I know you’re just having a laugh!
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I caught chickenpox along with my brother and sister, I was 10. They both got a little sick, a little itchy and got over it. I had chicken pox so bad I was hospitalised and the dr’s told me I even had them around my heart. I was a healthy child and there was no reason for me to have had them so severely. To this day I still have health problems steming back from a case of chicken pox which 30 yrs ago was almost a right of passage, every one had them at some stage. Maybe I was a one in a million but I thank the Gods that I was able to vaccinate both my children and they didn’t have to be put through the illness that most consider part of ‘growing up’.
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I’ve been hit by a car. It hurt a bit. One of my brothers was knocked off his bike by a car. He cried. A friend of mine got a broken leg when hit by a car. He spent one night in hospital I think.
I don’t know anyone, not one person, who has died after being hit by a car. So why is speeding illegal? I don’t get it. I think it’s just a plot to fill the coffers through speeding fines.
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“There are never real ‘facts’ just interpretations”
In October this year (in response to a Mamamia article), Meryl Dorey blogged about a piece of research which stated that one childhood vaccine was found to contain mercury at levels around 9-10 parts per billion. Although the research was not apparently an apologetic piece for vaccination, it was stated in the abstract that “…the levels of Hg detected are substantially lower than any established exposure safety limits,…
It is clearly stated in the abstract that the vaccine is Infanrix hexa. However, Dorey wrote on her blog that the it was Infanrix hepta. She described it as a 7-in-1 shot. It should be clear to most educated people that “hexa”, as in hexagon, signifies the number six, not seven. Infanrix hexa is a 6-in-1 shot as a simple Google search will confirm.
She ultimately corrected the “hepta” error (after pro-vax commentators pointed it out) but the blog still describes it as a 7-in-1 shot.
Dorey went on to write that the contamination level was 9-10 parts per million – not billion. She overstated the contamination by a factor of 1000. She then described this as “exponentially higher quantities than those deemed unsafe in drinking water”
Oddly, she then quoted the conclusion from the research text “…the levels of Hg (mercury) detected are substantially lower than any established exposure safety limits…”
So she knew that the researchers had determined it to be substantially lower than accepted limits but chose to describe it as exponentially higher. And the fact she chose drinking water limits for comparison is telling. Our children do not drink litres of vaccines. It’s a bit like saying macadamia nuts are deadly because if you eat a million of them for lunch, you’ll explode!!!
She ultimately corrected the million-billion error (after pro-vax commentators pointed it out) but repeated the error a couple of weeks ago on her Facebook page. I did not see this one corrected. Lots of similar errors remain unchallenged on that page, possibly because seemingly pro-vax commentators or questioners are banned.
Assuming she got all her information from the freely-available abstract, then she managed to completely mangle the facts from a single-paragraph. How can anyone trust her to properly interpret a full research document?
Are her interpretations valid?
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