A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.
So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.
Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.
No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.
Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.
Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.
Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury
Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.
Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.
Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.
For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.
Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.
Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.
All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.
For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.
Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.
When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…
Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.
Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.
No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.
Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).
Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.
The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.
Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.
Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.
Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.
If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.
Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.
Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.
Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.
Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.
Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).
More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.
Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.
Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now an AVN supporter has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.
If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:
So, any questions?
Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine. Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae. Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.










Comments
1,899 Comments so far
“To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…”
Well, well… So it’s unethical to make solid scientific placebo-controlled tests on a group of just 10,000 kids in order to prove that vaccines work, BUT hey, it’s ethical to apply this invasive and UNPROVED medical procedure on ALL kids of this planet???
You have got to be lobotomized to believe such “arguments”
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Regarding Myth #7:
‘If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination.’
Very true you don’t see deaths from many of those diseases, they have been replaced with deaths from Childhood cancer/s, SIDS, Diabetes, Allergic Reactions etc. Why is Cancer the number one killer in our children today???? Yes we might be getting rid of these diseases by vaccinating our children but only to introduce these other threats to our childrens little bodies. I regularly ask myself why our children are dying from these diseases now and why are many of today’s children diagnosed with ADHD, Obesity, Learning Difficulties etc etc????
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Interesting questions. I don’t know if your stats are right but, if they are, I’d suspect that much of the increase would relate to improved diagnostic ability.
For example, when I was young, there was no shortage of “ADHD” peers – except that no one labelled them ADHD – they were just naughty. But there would very likely have been a steady increase in people diagnosed with that label since it was applied – around 1980 I believe.
Similarly, SIDS doesn’t appear to be new thing by any means (some claim it’s mentioned in the bible), but it was only labelled SIDS in the late ’60s, I understand, so we wouldn’t expect to see any “SIDS” cases before that.
Also, I’ve read that an inverse relationship has been found between vaccination and SIDS. ie Vaccinated kids seem less likely to die from SIDS. But I’m not a scientist, so don’t take my word for it.
But even without new labels for old diseases, we can’t just assume any increase must be caused by vaccines, as some vocal lobbyists do. A lot has changed in the last 100 years. It could be electronics, or motor cars, or synthetic clothing, or…
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In #3 The author mentions monkey kidneys but does not say anything further. I am quiet sure to this day monkey kidneys are used to culture polio vaccines. Myths are busted by facts and truth not your opinion.
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“I am quiet [sic] sure to this day monkey kidneys are used to culture polio vaccines. Myths are busted by facts and truth not your opinion.”
Err, you’re “quite sure” there’s monkey kidney in vaccines – so, is this a fact or your opinion? And what’s your point anyway?
Dr Dunlop is a cell biologist, so I imagine she has a little more than just “opinion” in her armoury. So what’s your area or expertise?
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They are used in vaccines, read for yourself:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
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But what’s your point?
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I was a very strong proponent of the anti-vaccination movement, basing most of my judgments on quack science publicized by the likes of Jenna McCarthy. It was when I had my second son did I come to realize how idiotic I was. Believed to have contracted meningitis (Haemophilus) from a sneezing visitor, he later became paralyzed. Now at 7, he’s completely dependent and has to be home-schooled. Me and my families lives have been destroyed.
I urge all medically naive, egotistic mothers to stop consipiring against the only science that matters (RCTs, systematic reviews). Get your child vaccinated.
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I have a couple of minor criticisms. Full disclosure: I’m a scientist with a Master’s working in a vaccine development company. If you’re an antivaxxer you’re going to say I’m an industry shill. If you’re a person with an ounce of common sense you’re going to say, oh, this person should know at least a little what she’s talking about.
There is a SINGLE exception that I know of to #8: it is possible for people to get polio from the _oral_ polio vaccine, because it contains weakened strains of the live virus. The shot in the arm kind is killed polio so it’s safer. However, vaccine-derived polio mostly happens in countries where sanitation is poor. What happens is that vaccinated children poop out polio virus, and other people can catch it from the poop, which is why, if your baby got the oral vaccine you have to be extra careful when you change their diapers for a while. Polio viruses mutate very fast, so the vaccine strains can mutate back to a disease-causing form after a while. This is also more likely to happen to people who have weak immune systems AIDS or other causes. If i remember correctly (I could be wrong), kids with AIDS aren’t supposed to get the oral polio vaccine.
About #4, randomized controlled trials ARE done for vaccines. The science-fiction-horror part of purposely exposing subjects to the infectious disease is called a challenge study and as you say, it isn’t done in humans for obvious reasons. However, in vaccine trials, some of the subjects DO get a placebo. However, everyone is left to catch the disease or not on their own
Statisticians then compare whether or not there’s a significant difference between the percentage of people in the two groups who fell sick.
Also – antivaxxers pay attention – the statisticians also determine if the vaccine group had significantly more adverse events than the placebo group. All adverse events during a trial are recorded, regardless of why. I was browsing through a paper by one of our competitors and was shocked to see one death reported in a table of AEs – then on further reading it said the kid had been hit by a car, hardly likely to have been due to the vaccine…
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Thank you for that. I don’t know how else to counteract the crap that people spout. I met an antivaxer the other day who, even after I told her I am a nurse immuniser, told me how much she’d researched her decision and how she had used homeopathic “immunisation”.
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Dear Dr Dunlop,
I have a few concerns about the extent of the need for mass vaccination balanced against the risks of vaccination (which you stated are not zero).
Since you have done your research and are an expert in the field, could you please tell us the following statistics. I could not find them on-line.
When was the last case of Polio recorded in Australia?
How many cases of Polio are recorded in Australia each year for the last 10 years?
How many of those sufferred from death?
How many of those are now classified as disabled?
How many people were infected with the Polio virus as a result of vaccination attempt(s) and when did that occur?
Kind regards,
Adam.
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Have you had a reply yet?
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Adam – I’m not sure if your questions are serious, as it’s easy to find the answers. Anyway, assuming you actually want to know:
The last case of locally-acquired polio was recorded in a 22 yr old man in 1986 (ref https://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-pubs-cdi-1999-cdi2303-cdi2303f.htm)
Australia stopped using the oral (Sabin) vaccine in 2005 – only the inactivated virus is now used.
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Scientifically this is incorrect. I highly recommend doing your own research if you are reading this article and taking it as truth. There are an enormous amount of doctors and whistle blowers stepping forward who are now against vaccines due to the truth about them. I highly recommend looking into people like Dr Sherri Tenpenny for example. This article is just a repeat of information doctors are paid to spread.
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“This article is just a repeat of information doctors are paid to spread.”
Doctors are about the best paid profession around. They don’t need to pick up chump change to spread lies. To do so would be to belittle and trivialise their 6 + years of hard work and sacrifice.
Seriously that statement is a conspiracy theory statement. It shows the author, if not the whole AV movement, has massive holes in their understanding of the facts.
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absolutely the best paid professions!!!…..the health profession needs 100% compliance through scare mongering to maintain the “health” of its own industry…
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A DJ with a teenage-level mentality earns far more than the average doctor.
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Wow, I just googled “Dr.” Tenpenny and she’s an osteopath who graduated from the prestigious Kirksville, Missouri College of Osteopathic Medicine. Osteopaths believe in “alternative healthcare.” Not someone I would trust to advise me on medical matters.
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Osteopaths are medical doctors, just like MDs. While they are more open to alternative methods, they are still medical doctors. I’ve been to DOs, they are just like MDs, just a little less prescription-happy and tend to look at things a little more holistically. They love to vaccinate just like other medical doctors.
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Is that the same Sheri Tenpenny who missed the third grade because she was so sick – and who described this as “good”? The same Tenpenny who says a study would prove her case against vaccines – but who admits she doesn’t know much about research? The same Tenpenny who sells books, DVDs and supplements from her website?
This Sherri Tenpenny…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QraJJp6A7Eo
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As a professional immunologist of more than 40 years experience, I can only commend Dr. Dunlop for an absolutely excellent explanation of the benefits of vaccination. I also commend the owner(s) of the website for providing a forum to combat the medical illiteracy that constantly threatens to place the health of our children at risk
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Thank you for this article. My daughter got chicken pox at age 3 months and she was miserable since it was a severe case. The hospital didn’t know what it was at first since they rarely see cases of it anymore. Anyways, my point is that a parent chose to not vaccinate their child, which caused my baby to get it. She doesn’t go to daycare since I chose to stay at home when we found out she had a heart condition. I really don’t understand why some parents choose to put their children’s lives as well as the lives of other people in danger.
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Ellen, your daughter could very well have contracted the chicken pox from being exposed to a person with shingles…it did not necessarily have anything at all to do with a child who was not vaccinated.
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So true, disease is passed on not only by children but adults as well. Many people are quick to point the finger at faceless unimmunised children, but how many adults have booster shots themselves?
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so your vaccine didnt work then?
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Either way, she caught it from an unimmunized person, because immunized people don’t get it.
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Varicella Vaccine sheds. It says so on the package insert. Your child likely caught the disease from someone who had just had the vaccine. That is how my daughter got the illness. My sister sent her child to daycare yesterday even though he had a slight fever and runny poops 10 days after having the MMRV (classice signs he is shedding the virus). Any child he comes into contact with who has not been vaccinated for Measles or Varicella is going to be at risk to catch it. I am so sick of ignorant information being perpetuated.
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Sorry, but your sister here is part of the problem.
People shouldn’t send their sick kids to daycare.
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This is a bad format to debunk myths. Studies show that stating the myths, even if immediately debunked, will leave people only a few days later, only remembering the myths. The better way to achieve your goal is to state the fact in a way that implys what the myth is without actually printing the myth. Such as “Vaccines DO NOT cause autism” and “Infectious diseases ARE serious, and many children who get them will die.”
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My choice not to vaccinate my children was based on the not-so-mild reactions that my first child had to his 8 week injection and his 6 month one. This was no mild fever or sore arm. He was in the emergency department both times and went from a happy baby to a screaming wreck. He also developed food intolerances and our allergist (paediatrician) advised us to wait until he was older to vaccinate and do a catch up schedule as his body could not tolerate the proteins in the vaccines. He has reached the age where we will look at vaccination on a catch up schedule and do them one at a time so we can have some information about what, if anything, causes problems for him. We have held off on our second child’s for this reason and will do a catch up schedule when the time is right. In the meantime we aware of the symptoms of the diseases that are immunised against, we do all we can to keep our immune systems strong and have discussed and can live with the risks of contracting diseases before immunisation. Not every choice not to vaccinate is simple, easy or uncomplicated. Please consider this when you are raging against children and parents who do not vaccinate.
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Your children are the very reason that people who can get vaccinated are urged to do so.
There are many who are too young, old, or immune compromised to get the shots. The more people who are protected, the better chance for those not to get infected.
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You have some very good reasons for not vaccinating your kids, and I assume we all respect that. That some people cannot get vaccinated, for various medical reasons, is the reason we need herd immunity – as many people as possible vaccinated, so the diseases are simply not around those people who legitimately cannot get vaccinated. I applaud your efforts to do the best, I am sorry to hear about the side-effects in your first child, and I wish you the best of luck.
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ok go to youtube and see that bill gates (he has invested in medicine) in a lecture has openly stated that the planet is OVER POPULATED.
THEN in the same sentence says we need to control population through Vaccines..! have a look for yourself, he is an elitist and runs in the circles that have an interest in controlling population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJMR3BUm2s
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Luke. Completely out of context. really……
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Sounded like a slip of insider information to me…
If anyone here doesn’t believe that big money is involved in vaccines and they have huge incentives to be used, they are only fooling themselves.
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I am so sick of people misunderstanding that speech.
Okay, let’s break this down, the world IS overpopulated and is only going to get worse. The global human population is eventually going to outstrip the resources we have – like food and water. Overpopulation in developing nations is one of the main reasons for deforestation, for land being over-farmed, for damage to the environment in those places. Families in these countries will often have 15+ children. This makes it difficult to provide for all of these children and means the populations are exploding too fast for the communities, the governments, and the land to cope. The reasons WHY they have so many children is simple – lack of information on birth control options (whether for religious reasons or simple lack of education), and a high incidence of infant and child mortality. The parents are trying to ensure that some of their children survive and then in turn look after them.
So yes, Bill Gates does advocate for better healthcare, for immunisation against diseases that kill, for better education, and for birth control options. He is one of the few to do so despite the fact that it is one of the biggest problems facing our world today. Most of the big government players are afraid of upsetting the Catholics and Muslims by talking about overpopulation and birth control education, and they are also focused on the current models for economic growth – which all require population growth, so the don’t talk about overpopulation despite the fact that it is a HUGE issue. Bill Gates wants immunisation to take place in Developing nations so that children have a higher chance of surviving to adulthood, and therefore their parents will be less inclined to have these huge families that they can’t support. More children making it through childhood, means that families tend to become smaller. Thus overpopulation is addressed.
The man is incredible, and yet people keep taking everything he says out of context and trying to twist it into something “Evil”. It is so depressing.
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overpopulation isnt the problem, its the way the population lives. If the world went vegan (unlikely as we are so engaged in sense gratification) and started living a little simpler, the planet could sustain a population above 20billion.
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…and one last thing. Bill Gates has given BILLIONS to groups to try and help find vaccines for things like Malaria. He has “invested” in the medical industry in the sense that he is funding incredible and much-needed research that could help millions, even billions of people. I know several people who have had huge health problems due to contracting malaria. My dad’s best mate almost died. My guide in Africa can’t go home because he has contracted Malaria too many times and if he catches it again he will die.
It is enormously harmful to take things out of context and twist them in an effort to scare people.
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I feel sick about living in a society where you people feel that it’s right to threaten and advocate punishment for people who don’t vaccinate.
Freedom is more important than safety. If you are so worried about day care don’t put your kids there!
So easy to find articles saying how good formula is but I would never give it to my kids. Don’t be fooled by one article.
You will never force me to vaccinate my kids (or pets).
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Great, well keep your pets and kids away from those people who are smart and care enough to get themselves, their kids and pets vaccinated.
It’s hard to have freedom without safety.
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If you, your kids & pets are vaccinated why do you want those who aren’t to stay away?
Unless you don’t truly believe the vaccines work.
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Vaccines aren’t 100% effective – but that does not mean they are 0% effective, even someone like you should have figured that out with the tiniest bit of research.
People like Kate and Nick ‘s attitude is reflection of the decline in community mindedness that pervades some levels of society.
Oh, and your unvaccinated- by- choice special little snowflakes do not automatically get to mix with the rest of society, as Greg Beattie in Queensland found out in 1996 in a landmark decision.
“. Their evidence has positively persuaded me to the view that the decision of the Council to exclude the children from the child care centre is one which is reasonably necessary to protect public health.”
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There are always two kinds of freedom: “freedom to” and “freedom from”. In this case, “freedom to be dangerously stupid” is less important than “freedom from damage caused by dangerously stupid people”. Pretty much like in case of DUI.
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Would you think twice about giving chemotherapy to your child if they develop cancer? Chemo is pure poison but it gives you a chance of life.
Go to a kids ward and watch a baby with whooping cough struggle to breathe. Visit a Mum in a third world country that wishes every day they could protect their kids from the diseases that in all likelihood with kill them. A simple jab with a very small possibility of side effect can stop that. What is there to argue about?
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And it can prevent your child from diseases on to others.
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Too stupid for science? Become an anti-vaxxer. I make that statement unashamedly, and it was meant to be rude. Not all opinions are created equal. We have been indulgent of these cretins for far too long, now they are harming society and passing on their ill-informed opinions, despite them being de-bunked over and over and the science of vaccination being proved over and over. There is no arguing with a confirmed anti-vaxxer, they are either genuinely too stupid to understand the science, or have some sort of personality disorder that makes them believe in conspiracies dating back to the first small pox vaccination, or they just want to be contrary and genuinely don’t give a toss about their own children or anybody else’s. I won’t be arguing with any here, either. Great post, thanks for this, will share. We have to start undoing some of the damage these fools have caused.
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THANK YOU! I am so impressed by how you isolated the various anti-vax arguments from the mishmash of hype and confusion, and so excellently debunked them!
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Excellent post. I was checking continuously this blog and I am impressed! Very useful information specially the last part
I care for such information a lot. I was looking for this particular info for a long time. Thank you and good luck.
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I have two children with complex and devastating special needs none of their conditions have anything to do with vaccination. I find it so sad to see parents sanctimoniously choose not to vaccinate their children. I wonder if they take their children’s health for granted as they have no comprehension of how life can be for the whole family if the catastrophic were to happen.
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and here you with no references, telling us to be careful about what information we take on board!! hilarious! and very scientific…
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You don’t need references when your views concur with scientific consensus. The onus is on those who disagree to provide evidence for their opposing viewpoint.
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some very wise people also thought that the world was flat……and there was concensus on that…..it just so happened that other wise people then proved that the earth was round…..a couple of references may have helped the first lot???….dont you think…..????
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That’s not true. Once the Greeks (i.e., the world before the common era) proved the world was round, there was general consensus that it was round once people saw the support was there. Educated people haven’t thought the world was flat for a long, long time.
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No, the Greeks had already established that the world was round before even the time of Christ. Educated folk haven’t believed in a flat world for thousands of years. Nice try. Pythagoras, I believe, postulated a spherical shape 6th century BCE. Aristotle used physics and observational evidence supporting that claim circa 330 BCE. Eratosthenes actually measured the curvature of the earth and determined its circumference with a great deal of accuracy. This was around 250ish BCE.
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And all anyone needed to do was read the book of Isaiah – 40:22 states the earth is sphere.
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When my daughter was a baby and getting her first vaccination needles i was distraught. I was worried i was doing the right thing and that she was getting a needle and would be in pain. Anyway, i was crying along with my daughter (ahhh those hormones) and an old lady in the waiting room came up to me and put her arms around me and gave me a cuddle. She said, “you are doing the right thing, i wish we had these when i was younger and my brother might still be alive today”. Well this made me cry more but i never forgot what she said. I was still upset the next time my daughter got her needles (more for the thought they were jabbing my little baby), but i knew i was doing the right thing.
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I never had a second thought about immunising my children.
But then I grew up watching my mother suffer and suffer and suffer from the effects of childhood polio.
Did I mention she’s still in pain at 65?
I’ll put my faith – and the health of my children – in the knowledge of scientists thanks.
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So, this Dr Wakefield and his research have been discredited?
So was Dr William McBride and his research.
Any currently pregnant women out there want to pop a nice little thalidomide tablet to cure their morning sickness?
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No, but thalidomide is now used as therapy for myeloma patients – isn’t it wonderful how science continually corrects its views based on legitmate evidence!!
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It is!! I applaud science for the many advances it has made and the beneficial difference it has made to all our lives – none more so than medical science. However, science is not infallible and nothing should replace the individual becoming informed and arriving at a decision for themselves – based on their own knowledge and beliefs. And the rest of us have to live with that. And although many might dismiss anecdotal evidence, some of us are not prepared to when it correlates with personal experience in the absence of other reasonable explanations. And when science ‘corrects its views’ it usually does so on the back of overwhelming anecdotal evidence. Some just aren’t prepared to wait for science to catch up. And good for them!!
Personally, the jury is still out for me when it comes to this whole vaccination issue. And I’m not prepared to dismiss either side of the debate out-of-hand.
I”m glad thalidomide is useful somewhere for something. That doesn’t negate the fact that MicBride and his research were discredited just as Wakefield’s has been. Who knows, maybe one day Wakefield’s research will turn out to be true too – just as McBrides’ untilmately was.
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“And when science ‘corrects its views’ it usually does so on the back of overwhelming anecdotal evidence.”
Really ? So why hasn’t its views on vaccination been “corrected” yet?
Because science changing its view is not only based on the anecdotal evidence – it is only going to if the anecdotes lead to studies that prove a legitimate link. And there have already been thousands upon thousands of such studies and all show that there are just no known legitimate links to anything (ingredients/schedule of vaccines etc) in vaccines AT ALL causing autism.
You are the one flying the face of overwhelming scientific consensus deriding the autism/vaccine link, based on beliefs gleaned from flawed information-gathering skills, and I’m assuming you will not change your dogma, even though you can show NOTHING to back up the claim other than the feeling you get in your bones.
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Gees Jane DJ, take a chill pill. Then you need to vastly improve your comprehension skills.
I never ONCE said, or even suggested, that scientific evidence is changed by anecdotal evidence ALONE! I said that, in the instance of ‘corrections’ the scientific evidence USUALLY comes on the back of anecdotal evidence. If anecdotal evidence as to the deleterious effects of any particular medicine was not given any consideration (or no such anecdotal evidence existed) then the double blind, placebo controlled, peer reviewed, journal published studies would not get done post wide release of said medicine because there’d be no reason. You do get that, right? And really? ‘Thousands upon thousands of such studies’? Are you sure? Have you read them? Have you even sighted a bibliography of them all?
I’m sorry but DOGMA and I just do not go together – in any instance! What I have is a personal opinion. Did you not read the bit where I said that for me personally the jury was still out? Or, once again, did you just lack sufficient comprehension skills to understand it? No dogma. I’m not associated with, nor a member of, any group/movement/association. Just an educated *individual* with an opinion. It is ok if I have an opinion which differs from yours, isn’t it? I’m not out to convince anyone of anything when it comes to vaccinations or anything else. I don’t care what other people do. Particularly if they have informed themselves and are satisfied and confident that what they’re doing is the best course of action to take. More power to them! The only people here displaying any adherence to a strict dogma is YOUR side of the debate! You might care to look the word up in a dictionary while you’re working on your comprehension skills. And your insane comment about “the feeling you get in your bones” is beneath contempt! Just because someone does not agree with you or anyone else OR even with everyone else, DOES NOT make them stupid. Did you know that all the eminent scholars of the day disagreed with Galileo? Even his own father disagreed with him and kicked him out of home. Was Galileo ultimately proved correct? Thank goodness for ‘disagreeable’ minds like his.
Now, just to piss you right off, I’m off to hospital so my well regarded surgeon can use the well honed skills medical science afforded him, to operate upon me. After which time I will be consulting with another eminent specialist, who is also a professor of medicine at one of the country’s top five universities, to develop a life-long drug regime. Thankfully (and I truly do thank my lucky stars every day for this specialist) he doesn’t agree with the mainstream (fancy that?) – which is the majority of the mediocre specialist in his field. And I will get the drug regime of my choice – which anecdotal evidence and number of small studies points to the efficacy of (and this specialist has personally seen the efficacy of) and yet the mainstream continue to ignore. If I hadn’t done my own research and come to my own conclusions I would have accepted what the first specialist I consulted told me – and potentially had a life of feeling miserable health wise. Damn, I’m glad, so, so glad I question everything and do my own research instead of simply accepting what I’m told by the first ‘expert’ I encounter. Sometimes it pays not to be a ‘sheeple’. But hey, if you want to be one, who am I to argue?
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I have no problem with whatever pioneering new treatment regime you are about to embark on – maybe your expert professor falls into the Galileo/Pasteur/Darwin camp of revolutionary new theories. Regardless, it still must have either some basic science behind it to suggest prior plausibility or really compelling clinical evidence that suggests it might have an effect. You want to invoke the maverick Galileo gambit – well, lets hope your professor’s observations and ideas stand up to as much repeated observation and scientific experimentation by many scientists in many places over many years as Galileo’s has. The weight of data supporting his ideas was so overwhelming that eventually even the biggest skeptics could no longer stand.
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You go Ms. Grumpy!
I agree 100%!!
I have a rare heart problem. The first three highly regarded experts said it was in my head, and recommended I see a psychologist.
Thankfully I didn’t give up. I found a doctor who told me my condition was rare, but that the tests the other doctors ran showed, quite clearly, what I had.
I will soon be having my second heart surgery, the first one corrected 75% of the problem, and I love having a life again!
There’s a reason medicine is called a “practice.” I think people need to educate themselves, and make the decisions they deem best.
FYI- I vaccinated my kids, but I did it on a different schedule. Blind trust in anything is scary.
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Ms Grumpy you deserve a standing ovation!!!! Amazing!
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very well said…..!!i take my hat off…for the fact that you provided a clear personal opinion….i have read alot of the other Jane DJ comments……sounds like they could be a health media “plant” dropped in here to just stir shit and bag people with opinions other than the mainsstream……only then can the media say that its “controversial” or ” full of loonies”….. that somehow have wierd ideas……….good for you and take care….!!!
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Oh, szczyggy, I am flattered you think my replies smack of professional health media origins – alas, I am but a lowly science technician – fueled by critical thinking skills and a burning desire to point out and debunk the ridiculous fallacies spawned by antivaxxers and spread by the ill-informed.
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Jane DJ….please….there are many “ill-informed” sheeple out there. in fact, statistically 95% of people are of average and below average intelligence…and those people are happy to just accept whatever is fed to them. The 5% that make up the difference are the extremes..and these are the ones you worry about. There will always be idiots – i agree. Then there are those that distinguish the difference between science and spin. Follow the smell that these people invariably smell- and that smell takes you to the new piles of cash that ring in the eyes of the health industry as the newly indoctrinated sheeple fill the ranks, taking up every word the industry says through their fear campaigns. The invention of the modern media machine (and its very early examples like the manipulation of radio in the 1920′s in stalinist russia together with the famous burning of the reichstag in germany in the 1930′s) all showed how “fear” and “media” both played well into the hands of authorities that had a greater plan and intention for their people. Look at the Germans – they were normal people before WW2. They were systematically fed FEAR over an extended period of time that was contiunally fed under pressure of conformity…that they soon believed in a system that put them against the very nature of basic human civility and tolerance. I am not talking about conspiracy here…i am talking about the real world and the need to maintain a free society. By removing the debate and forcing aderance to one view through ridicule and mockery (to name a few), and charging the debate with FEAR of those many people on the “other” side of the fence…you….and the system are heading down a similar path to those of the past. The debate is beyond what only you see as a scientific technician (i am not arguing with your logic and your arguments) – I am disagreeing with your lack of tolerance for others to HAVE a different opinion…afterall in my view, its also about a holistic view of how your work, your data and your (scientific) research is held by very few people, manipulated by very few people but sold to the masses as the only truth. Please rememeber – the government, and its agencies are only interested in saving and growing themselves. They are not interested in having an informed and knowledgeable citizenry. Their only reason to exist is to be in power. The health industry is IMO an extension of that control mechanism…….
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Well, your conspiratorial conclusions about me were based on the unwavering fixed ideology you subscribe to – and surprise surprise – you were utterly utterly wrong.
I used to think that some people get swept up into these conspiracy delusions simply due to ignorance. For whatever reasons, they have not been afforded the opportunities in education, home/family environment or elsewhere to learn critical thinking, logic and other necessary life skills. Frankly, I am at a loss to understand how someone can continue to believe these things after they are given a bit of education and shown where to find legitimate evidence.
Then, I came across a quotation the other day that made it pretty clear to me, and now keeps me from wasting any more time ridiculing conspiracy mongerers :
“When science conflicts with your ideology, it conflicts with who you are as [a] person, how you believe you should live your life, what you’ve been raised to believe. And, almost no matter what ideology you subscribe to, eventually science will come in conflict with it, because no ideology, religion, or political philosophy is perfect. Eventually, they will all jar with reality. And what do most people do when science creates such a conflict? Do they change who they are, fundamentally, as a person? Of course not. They just deny the science.”
You don’t WANT to listen. There is nothing I, nor anyone else could say or show you that would make you question your ideology, is there?
*Walks away chuckling and wondering why the mounds of cash never eventuated after decades of scientific employ*
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If you’re sick of ignorant information being spread, you should stop spreading it. You can’t catch diseases from someone who has just been immunized.
I, and most of my generation had chickenpox as a kid, I continue to have occasional mild bouts of shingles. None of my kids, or any of their friends that I know of have had chickenpox.
Now our sanitation and living standards haven’t changed so much since the 90′s when the vaccination was introduced, so what do you suppose is responsible for the drop in chickenpox infection rates?
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“statistically 95% of people are of average and below average intelligence…and those people are happy to just accept whatever is fed to them. ”
Wow, let’s just pause a minute to take in the absolute stupidity of that statement. I guarantee you the exact percentage of people who are of average and below average intelligence is exactly 50%, and by making this ridiculous statement you have proven yourself to be one of them.
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I highly doubt the ex Dr Wakefield’s research will be true. They took away his license after they learned he’d falsified his research. And in all the years since then no other research group has found any possible link between the mmr vaccine, autism, and inflammatory bowel disease. Plus it was the second time he’d falsified research.
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I think you’re confused: William McBride is the one who actually pointed out that thalidomide causes birth defects, not sure what ‘discredited’ research you are referring to there.
And Andrew Wakefield’s ‘research’, which single-handedly started the whole vax-autism movelemnt, has been conclusively shown to have been deliberately fraudulent. And yet people like you still think there are two sides to the story.
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See, the thalidomide comment shows perfectly what is wrong with anti-vaxers, no critical thinking skills. Thalidomide does work for morning sickness and that was never in question. The problem was that no one knew that molecules could exist in different conformations, that a mix of all those conformations are present when a molecule is created in a lab, and that one conformation can be perfectly safe while another is completely dangerous. Not knowing something over 50 years ago that is now completely understood has nothing whatsoever to do with anything other than not knowing something over 50 years ago.
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Mia would like to live back in those days before the internet, where media lies could be unchallenged and media people like herself could dictate as they wished…..
If any children are harmed by vaccinations due to her dangerously shallow views, where will she be?
At work on her next newspaper column, not giving a damn.
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Yes, a few children have adverse reactions to vaccines. But compare that to the hundreds every year that used to suffer permanent defects and even death from childhood diseases like chicken pox and whooping cough. You appear to suffer from ignorance of history.
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I have just read Mia Freedman’s piece in the Sunday Mail of March 18th,and quite frankly,I was “blown away”by the biased,unbalanced naivety contained therein.Thank you Kevin,for your comments which I absolutely agree with.As a person who has been vaccine-damaged as a child,and contracted monkey-virus related bone cancer fron contamianted polio vaccines,I think that I am well qualified to comment!The information in the article could have been taken entirely from the vaccine manufacturer pamphlets available at doctors’ surgeries,and council offices!?The other impression I got was that Ms Freedman is trying to say that science is infallible??Therefore there should be no debate?How many pharmaceutical drugs and medical procedures have been withdrawn after they caused havoc in humans,even though the “science”previously stated that these were safe and effective?I also would question the credibility of the TGA which apparently is supposed to be there to “protect”us but in fact allows hazardous products banned overseas,to still be sold in Australia?Whose interests are they protecting?Is Ms Freedman serious when she states that knowledge can be dangerous??Oh please,what rock has she been hiding under?When it comes to products that make billions of dollars for vested interests,there are always two sides regarding safety and efficacy.As far as I am aware the Australian Vaccination Network’s members include a host of different health professionals (are they civilians?!)and they are NOT anti-vaccination.They are “pro informed choice”!?Most people are not making an informed choice on vaccination simply because the information available is mostly put out by vested interests,including GP’s who stand to receive a “bounty”for every injection they administer!In respect to “the lovely guy”who decided with his wife not to vaccinate,my sister works with “a lovely guy”whose wife is a nurse and they decided to vaccinate.Their baby screamed all night,had vomiting and diarrhoea,and underwent a marked personality change after the first lot of jabs.Of course,their doctor said this “meltdown”had nothing to do with the vaccinations!This seriously disturbed me because it appears that hardly any adverse reactions are being reported because “it is not a good look”for GP’s to do this!?How many people have heard that the Gates’ Foundation has allegedly had discussions on population control using vaccines?!Some people might think this is a good thing but one has to question the ethics of such an action?!Remember the furore over aboriginal girls being injected with contraceptives!?What is wrong with having a full and frank discussion with one’s GP about one’s health problems?Or is only ten minutes allowable???GP’s are not God ; they make mistakes and they don’t know everything!The “Drug Bible”on their desk seems to be the first information they consult!?I have researched extensively what happened to Dr Andrew Wakefield and there is no doubt in my mind that he was “set up”and character assassinated because he discovered something that was a disaster for vaccine manufacturers and a potential multi-billion dollar/pound lawsuit waiting to hit governments all around the planet?!There have been at least two other studies which have discovered the same vaccine-strain measles virus/autism link,but most media are ignoring this information!I believe that Dr Wakefield is currently involved in legal proceedings to clear his name.Everyone has the right to choose whatever method of healthcare they want to stay well.If that includes avoiding toxic injections full of chemicals and viruses delivered directly into the bloodstream,then so be it.Unvaccinated people are not disease-carrying pariahs like some would have us believe,but usually very healthy people who rarely see a doctor.There lies the problem!!There is much more revenue to be made from sickness than wellness.Also sickness,sadly,employs millions of people!I can fully understand parents whose children have suffered negative reactions to vaccines,defending vaccines to the “nth”degree,because who would want to admit to themselves that they had unwittingly allowed their child to be hurt like this?Finally,I would like to ask Ms Freedman why she thinks there are many doctors who refuse to vaccinate their children,themselves or anyone else?!
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Re : ” contamianted polio vaccines”
Millions of people received those vaccines – there must be evidence of a huge spike in overall cancer occurrences and death rates and a decrease in life expectancy for that time period. As someone convinced they have been “vaccine-damaged as a child,and contracted monkey-virus related bone cancer fron contamianted polio vaccines” you must have based this assumption on some hard evidence – do you have it at hand ?
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Hi Jane DJ: Here is my response.I have been tested for monkey viruses and have evidence of Epstein-Barre and Cytomegalo in my body.No one in Australia will test me for Simian Virus 40,the worst cancer-causing one.(WHY?)These viruses are now rampant in humans,due to certain batches of Salk and Sabin polio vaccines being contaminated,from African Green and Rhesus monkey kidneys,on which the vaccines were cultured.I would refer you to a 380 page research expose called “The Virus and the Vaccine”(ISBN:0-312-27872-1)by Deb Bookchin and Jim Schumacher(lawyer and investigative journalist).Their expose was covered by “Four Corners”about 15 years ago.Once you have read this book,you will lose all faith in vested interests and the lengths they will go to,to cover up “disasters”,especially when it comes to vaccines.Why do you think there is no vaccine damage compensation scheme in Australia?Getting back to osteosarcoma bone,brain and lung cancers which are now killing people in their 50′s,two people I know have died of the lung cancer and they never smoked.The cancer showed up on scans like a mass of tiny fairy lights throughout their lungs,but of course,no doctor is prepared to make the link with monkey viruses-it would probably see them deregistered!?You just don’t rock the sacred cow vaccine boat!These virulent viruses have been passed from parents to children,and I recall a few years ago,a baby died of a brain tumour,which for some reason was analysed.There was Simian Virus 40 in the tumour.I know that polio was a “hot potato”in the 1950′s but think about this-thousands of people didn’t get it,and this was pre-vaccine!I firmly believe that a strong,well nurtured immune system can fight anything.Any injection plummets the immune system,enough said!
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So why don’t you bite the bullet, and may to have the test yourself?
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Sorry JaneDJ,but have you read the 390 page meticulously researched “The Virus and the Vaccine”?There is a massive industry-led cover-up on this issue so I would treat what you have sourced with a grain of salt!The “inadequate evidence”is a total lie mainly because doctors know it’s not worth their careers to make the link!Read the book and ask yourself,why won’t anyone test for SV40 in Australia?
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Lol – well, the ” cover-up ” has clearly failed when there are so many bleating all over the internet about it!!!
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The recent studies that I’ve sourced indicate no such link with human cancer and SV40.
http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/24/26/4356.long
Is There a Role for SV40 in Human Cancer?
“Although many people may have been exposed to SV40 by polio vaccination, there is inadequate evidence to support widespread SV40 infection in the population, increased tumor incidence in those individuals who received contaminated vaccine, or a direct role for SV40 in human cancer.”
JCO September 10, 2006 vol. 24 no. 26 4356-4365
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Wow, what a rude reply. I can’t believe your use of scare quotes! I don’t care what your opinion on the issue is. Is it ever okay to be so offensive? It’s not even directed at me and I’m offended!
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Really???
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this will let you understand what happened to you. like any other medical procedure they can be badly managed.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/
http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/disease-prevention/vaccines-and-immunization/european-immunization-week/10-myths-about-vaccination
there are thousands of people dying because they can get vaccines. stop the freaking theories and conspiracies thingy.
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Let me tell you a secret: people might be more inclined to read your text if you put at least 1 space after a full stop.
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To all the idiots on here banging on about Herd Immunity I want to make an important point – It doesn’t exist for vaccination unless immunity is guaranteed!
Herd immunity is a solid principle in maths (statistics). It suggests that if you immunise 95% of a population the chance of the other 5% meeting to pass on a disease is slim. If you immunise 99% it is nearly impossible because the 1% won’t meet. That’s all good.
The problem is that vaccinations are not viewed as IMMUNISATIONS anymore. Therefore even the AMA accept that vaccinated children/adults can carry/host and therefore pass on a disease. For example, Whooping cough vaccination is only deemed about 80% effective. Therefore it doesn’t matter if 100% of the population is ‘vaccinated’ againt whooping cough – one in every five people can catch the disease and even the other 4 of 5 can pass it on as hosts. So Herd immunity is impossible and every unvaccinated child is no more danger to your own child that a vaccinated child. It is the greatest crock ever peddled to an uneducated public ever. If immunisation is complete and a child cannot contract nor pass on a disease then it IS achievable but no doctor will claim that in their wildest dreams. HERD IMMUNITY is rubbish peddled by a desperate mob.
For those of you who say what about Smallpox – eradicated by the WHO in the 70′s. Have a read of Monkeypox ,only ‘identified’ in 1970, killing thousands, and for some small reason the smallpox vaccince is 85% effective against it. A bit like Kentucky Fried Chicken being unavailable nowdays – gosh we all miss it but sometimes KFC reminds us of the same thing!
Lastly, two questions. How come the WHO failed in the bid to eradicate Malaria if they can ‘eradicate’ smallpox.
Secondly, why doesn’t anyone get Bubonic Plague now. No vaccination for a disease that killed half of Europe, but may have just gone on the wane coz of sanitation, health etc…
The immunsation debate is full of those who knew, and those who passionately argue the opposite way because they know they made a major eror they do NOT want to concede.
And idiots like Mia should NOT be alowed to comment on something they concede they have no idea about. Anyone who uses her websites for advice is so severely behind the eight-ball that they best get a life coach coz they’re that sort of Mummy!
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http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/#eradicationworldwide
“The emergence of drug resistance, widespread resistance to available insecticides, wars and massive population movements, difficulties in obtaining sustained funding from donor countries, and lack of community participation made the long-term maintenance of the effort untenable.”
Because malaria doesn’t kill rich white people, that’s the main reason it hasn’t been eliminated. no one wants to fund it if it doesn’t affect them.
Monkeypox is part of the orthopoxvirus genus, the reason the smallpox vaccine is partially effective is due to epitope similarities between the two. I would explain that using smaller words for you, but you are so closed minded you wouldn’t listen.
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Well done Rob. Excuse the Malaria failure, suggesting a conspiracy theory from what you otherwise suggest is achievable. Don’t mention bubonic plague or where it’s gone and why but most importantly, say NOTHING about my comments on Herd ‘immunity.’ Why is my chid a danger to yours? The main point of my post was to challenge the rubbish of Herd immunity.
I never even argue the possible side effects of vaccinations. There is enough suggestion there for this to warrant serious investigation. However, my reason for not vaccinating is purely general effectiveness. It is admitted that even sucessfully vaccinated children can catch diseases, but the usual line is that it limits the severity. If that is really the case, how easy would it be for the AMA to survey all the ‘acute’ cases of hospitalized kids form whooping cough, for example. If vaccinations work then we’ll find all those kids of bad parents in hospital beds around the country AND you’ll have an irrefuteable statistic to back up your claims. Problem is, those stats aren’t collated because I think the results would not support the vaccinators.
And why, if it’s been eradicated for 35 years, do we even produce a smallpox vaccination now? Seems like a big waste of time and money to me.
And as for your big words gag – I’ve kept my points concise and relevant to the topic. If you wish to argue them, address them without shooting the messenger. It’s lazy, uninspired, and suggests an avoidance of preparation. Maybe even desperation.
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Bubonic Plague hasn’t gone, people still get it. But it is less prevalent.It is spread from the fleas that live on small rodents. If you fix or reduce the issues of predominately rats and fleas, then you control the disease. However, there are still outbreaks of the disease in places where there are large rat infestations. There is however treatment for the disease and you can get immunised for bubonic plague if you are going into an are where this is an issue.
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I had the bubonic plague vaccine during the first Gulf War. I cannot remember ever having been so ill (although apparently I was when I caught German measles before I was old enough to get the jab). I’d take it again if you turned the clock back – having to commando crawl to the loo to throw up is much better than dying.
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If you actually read the article you’ll see that it isn’t written by Mia but my Dr Rachel Dunlop. I’m happy to get my advice from a Dr. any day rather than some blogger who seems to have a bit of mathematical knowledge. I’ll also take the advice of a Dr over the AVN who continue to scaremonger and spread straight out lies and then get all abusive when their ‘evidence’ is debunked. I’ll also take the statistic of 80% effectiveness in preventing whooping cough over 0% of not vaccinating. Vaccinating is about weighing up the risks and benefits (as all of life is) and I choose to vaccinate based on my analysis. I am Not behind the eight ball, uneducated or ‘that sort of mummy’. However, from your post I can tell what sort of person you are… very disrespectful and rude.
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Malaria is a disease that is born by mosquitoes. I don’t know if it is spread by people to people, but certainly by mosquitoes, which is different to Smallpox.
Secondly the bubonic plague is still around today. I recall some spots are around central america and southern USA, and eastern Europe, as well as some parts of Africa. You can find references to it on the internet. That is another disease being spread by animals or bugs.
Both the diseases you brought up are spread by non-person carriers.
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You are all crackers! These responses have turned into a hyped-up version of ‘Lord of the flies’. Why is this the ONLY subject related to parenting that turns friends into enemies? Do what you want, people!
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Couldn’t agree more. This is just one major argument with women that have highly active hormone levels. Instead of trying to one-up each other, how about you all talk to each other. YOU’RE ALL NOT SCIENTISTS. So stop acting like it. But let me be irrefutably clear here, i will never immunise myself OR MY KIDS with this government medico bullshit. When these immunisations dont have any poisons in them i will consider it.
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To Mia, beware th halo effect….oh and flawed research. The biggest thing you have overlooked is the GPs meant to be reporting side effects REFUSE to document them. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to have correct data on how safe it is. Not sure whether you were writing this article because you are passionate about the topic or wanted to be sensationalist. Either way it was a poorly written, biased view of an interesting health topic.
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Surveillance for adverse events following immunisation is an integral part of a national vaccination program.
Under the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995, all WA medical officers are required to report any adverse events of concern to the Department of Health, providing a full description of the reaction to the vaccine (adverse event).
The statutory requirement to notify adverse events after immunisation is specified in Regulation 4 of the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995.
This enables the Department of Health to identify new and unexpected AEFI and respond accordingly.
Any serious or unexpected adverse reaction to a vaccine should be reported to the Department of Health using the Western Australian Vaccination Safety Surveillance (WAVSS) system:
WAVSS will automatically report all significant and unexpected adverse events following immunisation to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
The reports are monitored and the relevant state or territory department of health is alerted if there is any concern which requires further follow up at a local level.
So if you have evidence of adverse events of concern not being reported, you should be alerting the authorities, Dave, not whining about it here.
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Jane, you rely on a lot of good-faith self governance. You’ll never convince an anti-vaxxer that the GP’s are actually doing this regularly. What is know is that in the litigious U.S.A there have been billions of dollars paid out out for adverse reactions.I know of a lot of other ‘laws’ that aren’t adhered to. In fact, the only reason a law is passed in the first place is becauseof a need. If the GP’s were vigilant and suspicious we would never have needed these laws to begin with.
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BILLIONS of dollars??? What is known is that that figure was made up by an antivaxxer, and not a very clever one.
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Anybody who is still uncertain about whether to vaccinate or not should watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afm3vjn0PuQ
presented by someone who now has a PhD in microbiology and immunology. Try to stick with it for the whole 40 minutes. It takes far longer to make a person understand the science behind something than to misinform them, especially if you make them fearful (extremely easy when kids are involved). Most people, when you try to explain the science to them just “glaze over” because it’s not interesting enough and they don’t have the academic background to fully comprehend it. Though they’re perfectly happy to absorb all the misinformed fear mongering you can give them.
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I do like the presentation and has a lot of useful information in it but they still are not convincing me to fill me kids with these toxins maybe when my kids are older and I can be sure the toxins won’t affect them they will be vaccinated. But all studies of how safe vaccines are have mostly been on adults but yet they are forced on babies.
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What they don’t realize is that while we do ingest things like mercury and even aluminum perhaps on a daily basis, there has always been mercury and those things in the environment since we’ve been on the Earth. People would eat fish or other foods, ingest the mercury and it would harmlessly pass through the GI tract and be excreted. Later, we saw the effect that mercury has on felt hat makers, who went insane after absorbing the chemical cocktail through the skin. Still, that was only limited to the “Mad Hatters”. Later, someone got the bright idea of injecting the mercury into the skin and muscle- a place that nature never intended for this element to end up. Don’t just look at the chemical and pass it off as ok to inject because we eat it, look at the way it is introduced into the body because it makes a BIG difference how it comes in. The body was never intended to have things injected into it like aluminum, mercury, etc. So why won’t they produce vaccines with just virus particle and saline solution. No chemicals, no squaline, blah blah blah. If aluminum is such a great “adjuvant”
we should all go home and chew on our soup cans too.
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Breathtakingly ill-informed — you wouldn’t appear so ignorant had you listened during high school chemistry .
Thiomersal is as much Mercury as table salt is Chlorine gas. One atom does not define the properties of a compound. Salt is sodium chloride. But we don’t hear people claiming it contains chlorine which is highly toxic. When chlorine mixes with hydrochloric acid – which we have in our stomachs – it reacts to produce chlorine gas, the deadly WWI poison. But we don’t hear people warning of chlorine gas poisoning from eating salt.
Similarly, scare stories about mercury have absolutely no basis in reality. The form of mercury in the thimerosal in vaccines is ethyl mercury, easily excreted from the body.
(Oh, and you got your facts wrong about high levels of mercury in fish – harmful environmental mercury is methyl mercury. which does NOT pass harmlessly through the body, and does in fact bioaccumulate http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/mercury/review3.php .)
And as for what our bodies were or were not intended to do – just at what point exactly do you consider unnatural interventions to the way we exist? I suppose you live in a mud hut subsisting on wild grasses and animals, and write your replies on bark ?
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Likewise most people can tolerate modest amounts of ethanol with no ill effects (aside a hangover) but drink methanol and you’ll end up blind, comatose or dead. Related chemicals both made from carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, totally different outcomes.
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Even the wild grasses and mud huts are not natural.
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You can never be sure the toxins won’t affect you or your children just because of age. I had the Hep B series as a very healthy, active, flexible, young adult, and subsequently developed arthritis before I even turned 20. According to the package inserts- all brands of Hep B have arthritis listed as a possible adverse reaction. Some days I can barely walk and I am not even 30 yet. Age does not protect you from these toxins.
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Hi Mia. I’m generally a big fan of this website, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with this article.
First of all, I think google can be a very effective research tool if you know how to use it properly (i.e. if it’s used to lead you to reputable websites). I know there is a lot of crap out there but peer reviewed articles can also be located using google.
Second, science really isn’t infallible. I’m a big fan of science, but my favourite thing about it is that it allows for theories to be proven and disproven, and that the “facts” are fluid, changing as our knowledge of the world around us expands.
I don’t personally know anything about the connection between immunisation and autism, but I would want to have a very good understanding of the original published article and the motivations of those who spoke against it before making any judgement. Scientists are people, and the world of scientific research is subject to emotional and (and as many have pointed out) financial factors, and there appear to be scientists on both sides of this.
Throughout the history of medical science, there are horror stories about patients being mistreated because doctors simply didn’t have a full understanding of what they were prescribing. As someone with M.E. I’ve had first hand experience of this.
There are a lot of diseases that are considered to be “first world” diseases. Does immunisation play a part? I have no idea. But I don’t think a lot of effort has yet gone in to proving that it doesn’t. The benefits of immunisation are obvious, and I certainly won’t argue against them, but they do have side effects that are not well understood.
As someone with a condition which, according to current medical science, may or may not be an immune disorder, may or may not be triggered by stimulation of the immune system and may or may not be genetic in nature … well you can see how there might be a dilemma there when it comes to immunisation of any potential kids.
Maybe I would feel better if knew there was research being done to identify who was at risk of side effects, so we could immunise the majority without doing harm to vulnerable people. I suspect this would be a risky career path for researchers to go down though, considering the profit being made from from this industry.
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Very well said!
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When formaldehyde is formed in the body that is a natural occurrence but when it is man made that is a different story. Formaldehyde is highly toxic to all animals, regardless of method of intake. Ingestion of as little as 30 mL (1 oz.) of a solution containing 37% formaldehyde has been reported to cause death in an adult human.[29] Water solution of formaldehyde is very corrosive and its ingestion can cause severe injury to upper gastrointestinal tract.
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37% of 30mL is 11.1 mL. A vaccine contains less than one mL. in most cases less than half a mL. Do the maths. This argument has no logical scientific basis and proves nothing about the safety of vaccines.
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Really no valid argument you say……well if that is calculated for an adult male how much would you suppose would be toxic to a baby? Often times babies are getting up to 3 vaccines at a time….and 30 some by the time they are 2 years old and you are telling me that is not going to affect their bodies. It is not about scientific bases it is common sense. You must be for population control or work for the government.
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Actually, vaccines contain only trace amounts of formaldehyde – thousandths of a mL. And formaldehyde in aqueous solution breaks down into formic acid and carbon monoxide very quickly.
Almost every tissue in the body has the ability to break down formaldehyde. It is usually converted to a non-toxic chemical called formate, which is excreted in the urine. Formaldehyde can also be converted to carbon dioxide and breathed out of the body. It can also be broken down so the body can use it to make larger molecules needed in your tissues, or it can attach to deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or to protein in your body. Formaldehyde is not stored in fat.
Here’s some info including a list of household items that emit formaldehyde fumes hundreds of times more concentrated than the miniscule trace amounts in a vaccine.
http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/chemicals/formaldehyde.shtml
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Thanks for bringing your knowledge of science to the conversation Jane DJ, and for the additional myth-busting!
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This article really sickens me it gives parents the impression that vaccines are 100% safe and there are no neurotoxins in vaccines. All one person has to do is go to this website that is right it is from the CDC and research the toxicity of each ingredient. Vaccines contain more toxic chemicals other than thimerosal such as aluminum hydroxide which affects the human brain no doubt plus some vaccines contain human diploid cells which come from aborted babies, formaldehyde, and many others I could list. But I am not going to inject my children with any of these toxins. I would think any other mother would not want to either if they knew the real facts. Do your research do not believe articles like these you have to get your own facts. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
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Addressed in Myth no 8 and Myth no 3. Sigh.
Did you even read the article?
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Ok so I missed the part where is says vaccines are not 100% safe I must have skimmed over that part. But still I am going to look for alternative ways to protect my children against diseases I will not be putting any of those toxins into them knowing they are at risk to develop any other medical problems or possibly die. You maybe willing to take that gamble but I am not. I guess what the Center of Disease Control posts as ingredients in a vaccine are not true so they are lying did you even follow the link I posted? The link I posted I got directly from the CDC’s website which list these as ingredients: aluminum hydroxide, formaldehyde, and human diploid cells, and monkey kidneys what other real facts can you get besides what is in vaccines according to the CDC. If you want to believe the little amounts of aluminum and formaldehyde can’t hurt you or a baby that is crazy that is just like saying one drink of alcohol or one drag from a cigarette won’t hurt anyone and can’t cause anyone any damage in the long run. When one drink or one drag can lead to an addiction then one can get cancer or have liver failure. Really just little amounts won’t hurt my baby when they are suppose to get 30 some shots before they are 2 years old! As the number of vaccines increase the more Autism is on the rise but there is absolutely no connection! Really? I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink it!
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30 shots before they’re 2. What immunisation schedule are you on?It’s this sort of exaggeration (and the continued belief in the autism/vaccination link-wasted a lot of time and money into autism research) that discredits anitvaxxers. Which is a shame as there are genuine reasons to be concerned and people should always ask questions. It seems that you are very good at reading articles that confirm your views but ‘skim’ over those that don’t. Then get rather aggressive when they’re contradicted.
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Actually, that is spot on. My son (here in Alberta, Canada) has received roughly 27 vaccines from birth to 18 months. He received the full gamut except for the flu vaccine.
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http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/VaccinesFullStory/v1/VaccineReport-EN.pdf
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Hello guest. Natural News is a crock. It is EVERYTHING that the links Dr Rachel has provided are not.
”NaturalNews.com (formerly Newstarget) is a website founded and owned by self-proclaimed “health ranger” Mike Adams. The site promotes almost every sort of medical woo known, though it specializes in promoting vaccine hysteria and quack cancer medicine. The site also promotes conspiracy theories concerning modern medicine, geared to gain sympathy for alternative medicine.”
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if you choose to vaccinate your child, why would you be worried that other children arnt? …YOUR child is vaccinated! so if he or she comes in contact with a non vaccinated kid……so what…..i dont see the prob here, either vaccinate or dont, they might get whooping cough, they might convulse and have a bad reaction to anitgens, they might die in a car crash…….make your desiction and stop sprouting biased info for and against…its making it hard for the people who havent decided yet.
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Myth Number 5.
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You would change your tune if your child had life threatening asthma and allergies and couldnt have the immunisations, and their life was being put at risk by people like you who refuse to vaccinate their own (disease spreading) kids!
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Indeed this is exactly the problem. I was unable to be immunised because of my asthma and a few other problems. When I was 16 I contracted measles and a whole world of bronchial complications followed which put me in intensive care for 6 weeks.
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Why is it making it hard for a parent who hasn’t decided yet? Surely you would want as much information as possible?
As someone who has a close friend who lost a baby to whooping cough as a newborn, because someone elses kid wasn’t vaccinated… I think if you don’t vacinate you’re selfish. Plain and simple.
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The reason people are worried that “other children arnt (sic)” vaccinated, is because some children who need protection are too young to be vaccinated.
Older children who get whooping cough can get very sick with it, for a long time – babies who get it can die.
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Oh dear Mia. You wonder why people disassociate themselves themselves from the AVN when they make an “anti-vaxx” comment. Perhaps because you have belittled the AVN and publicly taken away any credit they may (or may not) have had. You have tried to simplify a complex issue and yes I wonder if you bought this topic up to increase ‘clicks’ on your page. I do expect nothing less from the Herald Sun but I wonder how you are not embarrassed to be associated with this very low grade piece of journalism.
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“why people disassociate themselves themselves from the AVN when they make an “anti-vaxx” comment.”
I should hope that they disassociate themselves from the AVN because they are embarrassed at the torrents of uninformed shite that spew from Meryl Dorey’s mouth.
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Yes, its like they are all wearing “Im with Stupid” T-shirts!!
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“Bought” this topic up? What did you pay for it?
Says it all, really. i.e. the poor language, not the suggestion of taking money.
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If they were so certain of their convictions then other people’s negative opinions wouldn’t really matter, would they?
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I believe licensed builders to be in the pocket of big steel companies who offer massive kickbacks as incentives to build houses and schools with steel frames. I did my research and found hundreds of articles on how to build houses using nothing but broomsticks, rocks and flour-and-water paste. Despite the ‘advice’ of every builder, engineer and architect (all in cahoots, no doubt), we trust our research and our gut and love our home. It hasn’t fallen down yet so clearly it’s safe! But – no one wants their kids to come over and play. I am outraged by by their ignorance and judgemental attitude.
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I LOVE it Kate!!!
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Well done! Read your article in the paper today. Thinks its a terrible shame that so many people are deciding not to immunise their kids, therefore putting mine at risk. I think it should be compulsory. So stupid that we live here in our glass house sprouting all these false facts and propaganda while people in the developing world would give anything to have the kind of preventable health care and opportunities that we have. All the women in Africa must think our life is wasted on us.
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At the end of the day pharmaceutical companies are businesses and like most businesses want to do the best for the companies interest and shareholders. But I fear the price we pay for these profits and not just limited to the vaccination debate.
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Do you actually have a statement to make, or just vague, unformed allegations?
And I don’t know about you, but in my experience, businesses usually find that injuring and killing their customers is BAD for business. It is in the interests of vaccine manufacturers to provide safe, effective and well-monitored products. Which they do.
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Oh Mia! What have you done?? Your article in today’s Herald Sun was way above your pay grade, both professionally and ethically!
Commenting on whether you can wear spots with stripes is one thing but telling people that they should blindly fully vaccinate their children without any thoughtful consideration, questioning or research is totally wrong. We’re not talking about a fashion faux pas here, we’re talking about a decision that could seriously affect the quality of your child’s life, for the rest of their life.
Your article also demonstrated two qualities I wouldn’t normally associate with yourself; ignorance and naivety.
In regards to ignorance, do you know how Australia’s vaccination schedule may compare to that of other countries, what is different, why is it different? Or how many vaccines a child born in the 1970′s received compared to a child born today? Why are there so many more? Or is every vaccine absolutely necessary? These are all valid questions however rather than encourage readers to make knowledge based decisions, you have suggested the complete opposite and that we should just put the health of our children in the hands of “experts” which brings me to the next point – naivety.
Tell me you don’t honestly think that GP’s aren’t influenced by Pharmaceutical companies, that scientists always get it right, that drug testing is fool proof? Every drug has side affects. It just depends if you are willing to take the risk. Sadly, it seems that you would spend more time deliberating about what to cook for dinner than what you may be injecting into your children. Tut tut Mia, stick to writing about what you know.
PS – You obviously have some issues with the AVN. For the record I don’t have any association with them.
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What makes you think that you’re qualified to “research”? Have you done your degree and further qualifications to enable you to carry out this research?
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Elise, I think you should stick to what you know as well. What are your qualifications by the way? Apart from googling stuff, how did you research? I think that’s the point Mia was making, googling doesn’t make you an expert. The vaccination issue above my “pay grade” as you put it and I tend to agree with Mia.
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Haha, I can’t speak for doctors but I don’t even get free pens from drug companies!
Of course things have side effects, in a perfect world we could create drugs without side effects. But it’s risks versus benefits. I will accept that i may get a sore arm, or some local swelling but jeez, I’d prefer that over contracting hepatitis b. (or whatever else im being vaccinated against)
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My Father is a GP, every coffee cup, pen & hand towel is from a pharma co, but I can guarantee you those odd freebees were not the reason he recommends full vaccination, but basic common sense!
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Jackie, why does he even accept them? All your admitting to is that daddy is open to graft. Now why would those drug companies spend tens of millions of dollars in free ‘advertsing’ if they didn’t think it had some effect? What you have to remember is that we use vaccinations in Australia that are banned in other western countries. Daddy should take a good hard look at himself and buy his own coffee cup and pens.
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You should not say that in a perfect world we would create drugs without side effects because the efficacy is a side effect if it is changing the way the body behaves. I actually tell my students and my children never to trust anything that says it has some action on the body without side effects.
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Isn’t it funny how every anti-vaxxer always ends their comment by insisting they have no connection to the AVN?
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Definitely Mia, it’s laughable.
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Also “I’m not anti-vax, but I’m pro-choice and respect for people’s decisions, but here’s a whole bunch of stuff about why vaccinations are ebil”.
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I’m not sure what you are implying here. Is it that you don’t believe them/us? There are many non-vaccinating families who don’t support the AVN or have anything to do with them.
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Flying monkeys. That is all.
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No Mia, that’s not funny. My kids are unimmunsied as are many of my nieces and nephews. None of us have any association with the AVN. It’s just that we’re not the lazy arsed parents who believe everything they’re told or read. Go back to Dolly magazine!
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Grow up.
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It’s good to know that there are people who are not lazy enough to believe everything they read, and take the effort to seek out only the most unscientific, worthless things on the net to believe in.
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“Your pay grade”???? Really??? I think you’ve been watching too many American action/thriller movies.
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This article has reminded me to book my 4 year old in for her next lot of immunizations. Thanks guys!
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I have two children – one is partially vaccinated / delayed from the official schedule and the other will not be vaccinated until he is two.
FWIW Mia, I don’t agree with the insults being hurled at you over an opinion article. It is only your opinion and you are entitled to it. Nobody deserves abuse – and when it is from behind a computer screen it is cowardly.
However, I do understand why there is so much passion and debate here. It isn’t a straightfoward issue and there are many families who have suffered from simply following medical advice. Whilst we are not all doctors and scientists, it would be ignorant, some would say quite dangerous, to simply blindly follow advice without looking into it. Science continually progresses and changes its mind on what is ‘fact’and what is ‘theory’ based on new evidence and research. That’s the beauty of it.
I take it from your obviously pro-vax stance that you haven’t had direct experience of children who have been adversely affected by vaccines. That doesn’t mean that they don’t exist or that there are not legitimate, medical reasons for not vaccinating to the schedule or at all. My GP fully supports my decision and I have regular discussions with him about it. It is not a decision I take lightly and I by no means a nutter that believes that Drs or the Government are in a conspiracy with Big Pharma. I have no affiliation with the AVN and they have had no influence on my decision.
But…Vaccination is not without risk. For the majority of children that risk is tiny, for some children it is significant. Judging a families personal decision on what is best for their children is unfair unless you have first walked in their shoes.
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Ally, I think Mia is advocating the vaccination of all children so that those who cannot be vaccinated still have protection via herd immunity. Children like yours rely on others to be vaccinated so that they don’t contract these preventable diseases. I am certain that any level-headed person would support you in your decision (or need) to delay or cease the vaccination of your children. I know I do
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So well said Ally!
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A male friend of mine caught the mumps as an adolescent. He is now sterile and will never have children that are biologically his own. Sadly, his body (also known as his “pharmacy” apparently) wasn’t very effective at protecting him from infertility arising from mumps complications. Ask him – he would have risked a jab for the chance to have his own kids.
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Check out the high correlations between ongoing chiropractic care and increased immunity. Yes, there are PLENTY of scienctific, peer reviewed studies done on this! With an immune system functioning at its best, is there a need for vaccinations? I think we grossly under-estimate how wonderful our bodies are. We are our own best pharmacy.
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Chiro is great for your back but that’s it.
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Great for your back sometimes, maybe. I know a lawyer who works with many people suing chiros for doing long term damage to their spines.
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Didn’t they believe hard enough, Belle?
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Brilliant!
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Why then do it’s proponents talk so often about believing in it?
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chiropractic is not a religion, no need for “belief”.
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Then why do people who extol it’s virtues talk so often about believing in it?
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People can say what they like. The fact is that chiropractic is not a religion.
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I didn’t call it a religion. Like I said, people who talk it up talk about believing in it. Wouldn’t believing in it help it to help you?
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Personally, I find chiropractic care to be extremely effective yet have never claimed to “believe” in it. I cannot answer for other people, but fail to see how “believing” in it possibly make any difference.
People say all sorts of things, and even the most level-headed person can claim they have “good/bad vibes” or “gut feelings” about all sorts of things.
Let me answer this way, would believing in your antibiotics help them to work more effectively?
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There is much credible research to suggest that yes, believing antibiotics are working does indeed help their efficacy.
How is immunity conferred by chiro measured? Does a blood test tell you you are immune?
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Your comments are so lame – all this believing will make it so. I then believe I can fly….pity gravity is such a bitch!
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And people don’t sue medical doctors or pharmeutical companies?
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I know a lawyer who works with many people suing obstetricians, paediatricians, GP’s …shall I go on?
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what causes back pain? Your nervous system. What’s your nervous system mainly house in? Your spinal cord. What other bodily/cellular functions does your nervous system control? Everything. Without your nervous system you would die within seconds. Ever thought that maybe your chiropractor is accessing your nervous system through your spine?
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What causes backside and neck pain? Conspiracy theorists and sundry other nutcases spouting anti-vax and anti-commonsense baloney all over teh interwebs and calling it research and proof.
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again, another ridiculous comment.
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What’s so ridiculous about it? Why are you allowed to question but I’m not?
Thanks for proving my point in writing it though. So you know, I wrote it to show the ridiculous comment that precedes it “explaining” the nervous system.
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smarmy responses do not an intelligent debate make.
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Yet it’s cool for you to jump from post to post calling me an idiot for asking questions, or making little one line comments of no substance?
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I did not call you an idiot. That would be rude.
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Love your work, Kris2040
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Ditto that!!!
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Oh bless, I love how you simplify the complexity that is the nervous system. It reminds me of Dr Nick from the Simpsons “Dr. Nick: [singing] The kneebone’s connected to the… something. The something’s connected to the… red thing. The red thing’s connected to my wrist watch… Uh oh”
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sorry, did your extensive medical training teach you that the nervous system is not housed primarily in the spinal cord?
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Oops, should’ve read your spinal COLUMN, not spinal cord. Thanks for pointing that out
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Have you forgotten the brain?
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Haha, oh what a wonderful song! Yes, I know it’s a ridiculously simplistic version of our nervous system, but sometimes you just have to keep it simple.
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Care to link some, Ali?
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http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/news/immunityreferences.htm
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Ali, I wouldn’t bother trying to have a serious debate with this person.
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Hey ? – for someone who’s nick is a question mark, I’d have thought you wouldn’t have a problem with questions. Why do you?
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So, pointing out the obvious, those links are on the World Chiropractic Alliance website, most of them are links to osteopath or alternative medical journals (including articles published by the WCA itself), not all of them are peer reviewed, and the newest of them are 2004 – the oldest are from 1918. A simple list of citations to a somewhat motley collection of sources does not a scientific argument make – can you tell me which of the peer-reviewed articles (preferably from this century) conducted experimental research, and how they came to their findings from the data? I’m assuming at this point that you have actually read the findings yourself.
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You should check out some of the vaccination ‘peer reviewed’ articles and how old they are….and how the vaccinations trials were done on adults not babies. Tell me that’s good research……
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After much heavy consideration, i decided not to get my dog vaccinated, as i don’t want him to get autism. *Note the heavy sarcasm*
But seriously, I got my puppy dog vaccinated without a second thought, as i didn’t want him to get sick from something preventable. I’ll do the same for my future kids in a heartbeat.
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I couldnt get my dog into puppy school without vac records, mabye it should be the same with children…
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http://www.generationrescue.org/latest-news/jenny-mccarthy/mmr-doctor-exonerated-who-s-guilty-now/
Mia, maybe you should get your facts right about the “discredited” doctor, shame on you for writing that article, sit down and tell that story to my autistic son, though he won’t be able to question you because he is non verbal!!
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I don’t know if your post is the one that has Mia upset but I don’t read ‘abuse,’ I read ‘frustration’ at being called a nutty mother who instinctively knows that something isn’t right here and has done some research to find out what has happened to your child.
I don’t know this doctor and I’m not a ‘AVN sock puppet’ but I knwo there is more to this that meets the eye. There are sites that can be ‘googled’ (if that isn’t against the law) that shows families in the US have been paid hush money by the Government to stop agitating to autism link.
I repeat – my children are immunised.
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NOTE: we would usually delete an abusive comment like this but we have already deleted many far,far worse on this post so I thought I’d leave this one here so other readers can see the tone of the argument being levelled.
The AVN have been mobilising people on their Facebook page to come here and abuse me.
I thought others might be interested to know that.
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Great move, Mia. Part of me thinks you should just leave up all the vitriolic comments like this – I just checked out AVN for the first time (I’ve only recently moved to Australia and hadn’t heard of it before) and they seem to be at their most ineffective when they’re on the defensive. Let them spew their vitriol rather than argue the evidence – at least the readership here should be able to see through that.
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I know that I’m like a record with a scratch in it
BUT this sort of controversial post brings out all the sock puppets. Who knows how many multiple comments were made by each AVN member. If you changed the forum to people having to register with a viable e-mail address before they were able to comment you could cut across a lot of the crap that occurs on this forum.
When people are commenting under a multitude of names, none of the comments have any credibility. Just my two cents worth
This is the only forum that I’ve ever been associated with that allows “sock puppets”.
I’m not criticising you Mia after all this is your sandbox and we just play in it
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All that does is add extra steps, it does not cut out sock puppets. You can easily create email accounts without your name or identifiable details. I use such email accounts for online dating, to sign up to websites, for any organisation I think may spam me. How is MM to know if jane.guest@gmail is my real name or not? Also, no way are the majority of people going hand over their legitimate details to MM.
AVN would simply take a few extra minutes, make a few email accounts and post away. You would cut out people who can’t be bothered to do that but sock puppets still wouldn’t go away completely.
The system works fine as it is. It is only on a select few topics the sock puppets go crazy. I don’t think this is a forum. It is a comments section. I like seeing regular commenters but I also like that anyone can post under any name (one name per post) and have their comment taken as it reads, without any assumptions about the poster.
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When I was a mod on a big Sean Bean forum everytime someone applied for membership a box would come up and tell the mods whether or not there was already a member with that particular IP address.
If there was alread a member with that particular IP address not only did we not approve the person currently seeking membership but we also cancelled the membership of the person already registered with that IP address. We also banned that particular IP address from accessing the system again.
It was made very clear in the rules that ithere was a zero tolerance to sock puppets.
But yes I agree with what you are saying that there is no reason why someone can’t have multiple e-mail addresses and register multiple times, but I’m still sure that it will stop a lot of the sock puppets.
The mods on this forum already have access to the IP numbers of the people who comment because at times the mods have commented to certain people to stop commenting under multiple names. I haven’t noticed it on this post but I have in the past noticed it on other posts.
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Completely off topic: Sean Bean forum, woot! Game Of Thrones returns in two weeks! (Sadly, minus Ned)
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Game Of Thrones returns in two weeks!
You’ve got to love “Game of Thrones”, it’s like LOTR but completely lacking in any morals what so ever.
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Hey Catgirl,
Re: sock puppets
We can see when someone posts multiple comments under diff names from the same IP and we deal with that by cautioning then deleting.
But with proxy IPs (used by the AVN) it’s much harder to prove…
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But with proxy IPs (used by the AVN) it’s much harder to prove…
Nigh on impossible I’d say.:(
I read your little edit where they are bragging that one person made 30 different posts using 30 different fake IP addresses. If they had to register 30 different times with thirty different e-mail addressess and then authenticate their e-mail address it might just slow them down a little bit.
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Well if they’re dodging the ISP test, there are plenty more ways to spot AVN’ers vie their rhetoric :
– lack of specifics
– usually incorporates the term “vaccine injured”
– will incorporate the question “why are you so worried if your children are immunised?”
– will contain an anecdote about “My gp/paed/ doesn’t vaccinate”
– hate all doctors except Wakefield, Mercola et al
– will whine about posts discrediting their POV as being disrespectful
- their posts usually melt my irony meter
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- Claims of bullying and nastiness
- Claims that they “have the references but have to go and get them”
- Linking swathes of links, saying “SEEE???!!!?11″ – commonly known as Gish Galloping
- Claims of living in either a communist or Nazi state
- Telling people to “Question and Educate yourself” but crying foul when someone asks questions of them
- Inappropriate use of CAPITALS, exclamation marks, question marks.
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