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baby vaccination2 380x573 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

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A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.

So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.

Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.

No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.

Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.

Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury

Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.

Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

JennyMcCarthy 380x214 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.

Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.

For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.

Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.

Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.

All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.

For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.

Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.

When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…

Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.

Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.

No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.

Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).

Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.

Iron lung CDC 380x250 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

The iron lung, the machine used to keep polio patients alive.

The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.

Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.

Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.

Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.

If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.

Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.

vaccination syringes 380x506 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

It's easy to make vaccinations look terrifying, but they're a child's best friend.

Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.

Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.

Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.

Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).

More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.

Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.

Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now the AVN has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.

Screen shot 2011 10 19 at 12.18.57 PM 380x125 9 vaccination myths busted. With science!

A screenshot of an AVN member admitting to using fake IPs to boost his 'argument'.

If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:

So, any questions?

Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine.   Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae.   Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.

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1,508 Comments so far

  1. GD Star Rating
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    JJ

    Question….how many millions of dollars are paid out every year to families of children who have had horrific affects from a vaccination, even death?? Not sure…..that’s because the Governent and Vaccination’ manufacturers don’t want you to know….How would you feel if it was your son who died from the flu vaccine in 2010 in Queensland, let alone the tens of children who became gravely ill. Don’t tell me that reasonable collateral damage is acceptable!

    I certainly wouldn’t be one to judge any parent either way!!!

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      Mia

      JJ, how would you feel if your baby got whooping cough and died because of misinformation like anti vaxxers like you continue to propagate?

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        emma

        I’m with you Mia. I have a 10 year old nephew who had whooping cough for approx. 8 months last year. Seeing him gasping for breath, turning blue & having to constantly make the decision to call the ambulance again or not for the 50th time that day was horrific. My poor sister & her family who lived with that constant fear on a daily basis over that time ….. well, I just don’t know how they did it. Let alone the strain it poor on my nephews body, school work etc. And all we hope is that this year will be better! fingers crossed.

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    the Original Camille

    I am in the process of being offered a job in NSW health as a counsellor in the community (not hospital.)
    They can’t give my paperwork to HR for an official offer until I prove to them that I am fully immunised. So, no immunisation = no job.
    I think it’s fair enough.

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      Kris2040

      How do you do that? Get a blood test to check immunity? Or just go and get boosters and get a certificate showing what you’ve had? Again, I don’t understand why the Childhood Immunisation Register isn’t just the Immunisation Register and everyone’s details are kept up to date…

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        the Original Camille

        it’s a combination of the the proof I have (from blood tests results I kept when pregnant) and now getting blood tests to show immunity for the one I don’t have proof of.
        I think an Immunisation register would be a great idea.

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        rainbow

        sometimes you can be fully immunised but have waning immunity, so for a situation like this, you need both immunisation record and blood test to prove immunity.

        i would like to see a similar thing in schools!

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          Kris2040

          I don’t see why it can’t be backed up by a jab book system. ADF personnel have a jab book which gets stamped for each immunisation. Not continuing boosters etc just makes people think they don’t need to bother.

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            rainbow

            i agree, i have no idea of the dates of my immunisations, i will need to check my immunity when i go back to work or travel.

            it would be good if the national immunisation register included adults too. the thing is you have immunisations at work, hospital and gp’s (which i have changed fairly frequently at times) so i really have no idea.

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              Kris2040

              But kids ones are linked to their medicare numbers, so why can’t adults? Silly.

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            rainbow

            replying here as it won’t let me reply below. i am guessing that information is somewhere in the system, as you are right, immunisations are linked to our medicare number. i am not sure why it isn’t easier to access.

            i think extending the register would really help with immunisation uptake. mmm maybe a letter to the minister of health is needed?

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    TV

    I read so many comments and laughed at the stupidity of some people. For those who are anti-vax, ive got a little job for you to fill in your time.
    OK, here goes…. ready?
    Say you could break into the CDC and manage to get into BSL-4 (this is impossible but lets pretend shall we?) open the fridge and get yourself a vial of lets say hmmmm smallpox. Lets make it really fun and get Hemorrhagic smallpox. How expose yourself to it and then go home and give your kids and all your neighbours cuddles and kisses.
    Here’s the deal, within about 8 weeks (thanks to the wonders of quick, easy international travel) about 30% of the worlds population would probably die. You see, Smallpox was erraticated by this funny thing called Vaccination. To ensure that it was completely ridded from the earth (and yes, people proclaim that its still around but called something else, this also is not true as diseases such as monkeypox present different symptoms and results) a dedicated group of people started ring vaccinations. Travelling to areas, containing the disease until it was all gone. But hang on, vaccinations dont work… well, Im guessing they must have had a sharman or some herbs or something. It could just be a coincidence that they were there vaccinating at the same time it, you know, dissapeared.

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      rainbow

      are you for real??

      30% of the population? that is scary.

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    Raloplump

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  5. Pingback: » A lesson in “do your research”

  6. GD Star Rating
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    unique article wizard discount

    vaccines are important for the patients. If the world doesn’t have any vaccines for sure the world will suffer because lots and lots of people will die.

    unique article wizard discount

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    RichardMaretti

    This is Babulerman.

  8. GD Star Rating
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    Anon

    See even medical researchers get it wrong. They are still human and we must remember this. Your opening post was wrong. I doubt you even read past the abstract (your suppose to be a researcher!), the article says that 60% of the results will be antivaccination information nowhere does it say “misleading but downright scary”…

    Myth 1: Vaccines cause Autism. Please explain why then, the vaccination has steadily grown with the diagnosis of Autism in children? Your studies were only targeted at MMR and no study I know of looks at the compounding effect of the vaccination schedule and Autism.

    Myth 2: Well you said Vaccines contain Mercury, and you backed that up with science. So dont see how that was ‘busted’? Also do you know the biotransformation process of Thiomersal? Did you know that Ethylmercury specifically targets kidney and central nervous system tissue? (the brain – autism is also a brain thing). Also the MMR link with Measles looked at a Causal relationship not a positive correlation… Smoking does not cause lung cancer but there is a definate positive correlation between the two.

    Myth 3: Mercury and Aluminium depending on gut flora do not readily cross into the circulatory system from the digestive system. However these are toxic when deposited directly into the bloodstream. Vaccines are administered directly into the bloodstream.

    Myth 4: So how do vaccines pass Phase 2 of the drug development phase? This would imply that vaccines are not tested thoroughly.

    Myth 5: Naturally acquired immunity does not fade, vaccine induced immunity does because it fails to target the cell mediated response in the immune system. So thus it is only a humoral response, 1 side of the immune response. Also Pertussis recurrence also happens exclusively in vaccinated persons because the Vaccine fails to target the Adenocyclase Tropin toxin which naturally acquired immunity does create antibodies to.

    Myth 6: Polio vaccine coverage was only 60%, current day diseases like Measles have a much higher vaccination coverage. So mass vaccination cannot be attributed to eradication of certain diseases.

    Myth 7: 4 babies out of the hundreds of thousands born every year is definately not a epidemic. Were these babies immunocompromised? were they born prematurely? were they breastfed? did they have an underlying condition that made them susceptible to the mortality they suffered?

    Myth 8: Since the 1950′s you forgot to note that in 1990 there was an outbreak attributed to the Polio vaccine in Africa, again in 2000 in America and Again in 2011 in Nigeria! People catch planes, travel interstate, virus transmission spreads and mutates and you have an epidemic. Also most cases of Polio are fever, headache and sore throat… Only 1 in a few thousand get sick more than just the normal viral infection. Notably because they have genes that make them susceptible. Epigenetics should be the main cause of vaccination not the current mass vaxx campaign.

    Myth 9: Yes it will be overwhelmed. Sweden which employs a delayed vaccination schedule and is also the second lowest country for Infant Mortality rate. America has the highest and also one of the most aggressive vaccination schedules.

    Do your reading look at all the evidence and don’t believe everything you read!

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      lucindainthesky

      You lost me at “smoking doesn’t cause cancer”.

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      Kris2040

      3. How is something that is either swallowed or injected into muscle or fatty tissue going directly into the bloodstream?

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        LS

        Do some research and you’ll find out. Come on, it’s not hard….it would save you time asking stupid questions like this.

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          Faybian

          Rude! I’m still trying to work it out and I’ve given heaps of IM injections (including vaccinations) and the first thing you do is pull on the plunger a bit to make sure you haven’t gotten a blood vessel.

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            Kris2040

            I’m sure if I googled or asked the AVN I’d find out. But for some crazy reason I prefer to ask people who actually know what they’re on about.

            If it’s so simple, I’m sure LS can share the mechanics of it with us.

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      Kris2040

      1. Autism (or rather ASD) diagnosis has gone up because doctors and teachers are better at picking it, and getting treatment for it.

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      guest

      Anon – you lost me at your improper use of you’re (you’re): “your suppose to be a researcher!” just be because something happens at the same time as another doesn’t mean one causes the other. In fact, in a real world setting it’s virtually impossible to suggest something causes another thing because there are so many variables. It’s called attribution.
      Just because the infant mortality rate in Sweden is low, would be more related to their extremely high standard of living, of health care, and their climate. Do some research.

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    David's Autism-Daddy

    I can prove that not one of these is a myth. With Science!

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      Kris2040

      Go for it.

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      Jane DJ

      Really? If you have something to say, then say it. Does this sort of breadcrumbing make you feel special?

      A week later and the crickets chirp into DA-D’s silence.

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      brightrfish

      We’d love to see your ‘science’. Go right ahead and prove that none of the above are myths.

      My nephew is autistic. Not one family member has been silly enough to think it could have been caused by vaccination. Looking back, he was showing some ASD-type behaviours from birth. There are plenty of conditions that show no symptoms until after vaccination. Are we to blame vaccination for Multiple Sclerosis, for example? MS sufferers are born ‘normal’ and develop perfectly; therefore vaccination must cause MS. Are we to believe such bunk from ‘conscientious objectors’ such as the AVN?

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        Kris2040

        Could just be like our learned friend Erwin and blame the rise in the number of gay people on universal immunisation…

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    Riddley Walker

    “Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).”

    They might be free for parents, but my “friend of the family” booster cost me about $30. I’, unemplyed, but considered it value for money.

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    Filipio

    Just on myth one Rachael, and in the interests of transparency:

    One might note that the major finding of the review you cite was that (quoting directly): ‘for the majority of cases (135 vaccine-adverse event pairs), the evidence was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship’.

    In other words, the evidence is inconclusive either way.

    Which is certainly reassuring to me as a parent as far as that goes, but hardly a damning critique of any concern whatsoever, and markedly less than a ringing endorsement for open slather on any and all vaccines.

    Beyond the clearly ‘off with the faeries’ grandiose claims of deadly consequences, there is a level of parental concern which needs to be acknowledged and too often is not. The fundamental principle of epidemiological approaches is care at the level of populations, not individuals. What that comes down to is a fairly crude form of utilitarianism — if the health (mortality/morbidity) of the vast majority of the population as a whole is deemed to be improved, then the ‘sacrifice’ of a relative few is OK (excuse the emotive language, but I want to highlight the point).

    Now as a parent, I don’t deal with the population — I am considering this one, precious little individual and their well-being. That is my special responsibility, my main responsibility. And I am being asked, in the name of ‘population health’, to risk the health of my child, however slight the risk.

    Herein lies the dilemma of the parent.

    A concrete example. In the ACT, at the birth of my child I was asked — nay, pressured — to participate in a trial of early vaccination for Hep B. Neither my partner nor myself are intravenous drug users (a high risk groups for Hep B), nor to our knowledge are any of our close relatives or friends.

    Now, I am not about to suggest a specific risk associated with the vaccine. Once again there have been claims and studies, and findings and critiques of findings, or recommendations linked to specific vaccines (e.g. a 2009 study of the hepatitis B vaccine and associated risk of CNS inflammatory demyelination was conducted. The hepatitis B vaccine was found to be generally safe, however the Engerix B vaccine appeared to triple the risk of CNS inflammatory demyelination in infant boys).

    The question I asked myself at the time was this: could I be assured that the type of vaccine that was being offered to my infant boy (and this was in 2007) was absolutely the most risk-free and well-researched form available?

    I could not reassure myself on that point. And I simply could not countenance the notion that society required my new-born infant to be injected with a substance that bore no relation to his individual situation of risk, and that could not be guaranteed to do him no harm. In the name of the greater good of the population.

    Sorry; Australia was too abstract by comparison with my son’s perfect pink body and wide, wide blue eyes.

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      Dave

      @Filipio it’s an interesting point you make. Many of the arguments are presented in a population context. However most papers and such are not targeted at parents.

      So in considering the risk to your own child and not being concerned with the larger community. Just how well will your child fair when he catches one of these disease? After all he won’t have any immunity.

      With more parents not vaccinating the chances of this happening are increasing all the time. I certainly hope it never does but thats the reality parents not vaccinating their kids are creating.

      As for the trial….it was a trial and certainly carries a degree of risk which is higher. You can always just say no to that.

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    Annie Os

    I would rather take the “risk” of an adverse reaction in my child to a vaccine once, than take a life threatening risk every time they take a breath , touch a surface, or come into contact with people by not vaccinating.

    It is irresponsible not to vaccinate, end of.

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      Maria

      I would see it irresponsible to vaccinate without education

      End of.

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        Ng

        You better get educated then Maria.

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        Andy

        So you’re saying start researching fulltime four or five years before you have a baby? Or do you mean read a few books and blogs once the baby’s arrived?

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      Vax comment

      Annie – that’s a very valid opinion to which you are entitled.

      End of.

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    Emma

    I work closely with children with disabilities (including ASD) on a day to day basis.

    I did not believe vaccinations were harmful until many of the parents told me that they saw a significant change in their child within 24 hours after a vaccination.

    I also see many children with gut and immune disruptions due to many chemicals and viruses, including vaccinations.
    It is known that gut and immune dysfunctions can affect neurotransmitter production and cause other health/mental issues.

    My belief now is that many people ‘handle’ vaccinations as their immune system and gut are healthy.

    If you inject foreign substances into a blood stream which does not have the capacity to deal with these foreign substances then a reaction may occur.

    Many of the parents with ‘vaccine-damaged’ children I know are not advocators directly against vaccination- however if your system is not functioning then, just as you would advise against using strong chemicals in your home, please be cautious of overloading the body.
    Some say, build up the gut/immune system first, then use one at a time (many vaccinations are combined these days).

    You may also like to order the fact sheets for Australian vaccinations from their producers. Many of the contraindications do indeed list some of the illnesses such as Autism or the symptoms of Autism as a possible side effect. My personal interpretation of this is that the companies producing the vaccinations are aware that they may cause harm in some people.

    I would also like to say that many of the people who do choose not do vaccinate have done significant independent research.

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      ng

      Nowhere is there product information that lists ‘symptoms of autism’ as a possible side effect. Goodness me that is a straight faced lie.

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        Emma

        Autism is a symptom complex with a wide range of symptoms which can differ between each child.

        But here are some of the symptoms listed by one of Australias leading vaccination brands (which I wont list here due to defamation)

        unusual crying (for
        more than 1 hour),
        vomiting, diarrhoea,
        runny nose or loss of
        appetite
        sleepiness,
        nervousness, irritability
        restlessness, fussiness
        or difficulty sleeping

        Nervous system disorders:
        Rare: hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode

        Immune system disorders:
        Rare: allergic reactions (such as allergic dermatitis, atopic dermatitis, eczema)
        Metabolism and nutrition disorders:
        Very common: appetite lost
        Psychiatric disorders:
        Very common: irritability
        Uncommon: crying abnormal
        Nervous system disorders:
        Very common: drowsiness
        Uncommon: febrile and non-febrile convulsions

        Central and peripheral nervous system: Very rare: meningitis, Transverse myelitis, Guillain Barré
        syndrome, peripheral neuritis, encephalitis*

        Gastrointestinal malformation

        Metabolism and nutrition disorders: Common: appetite lost
        Psychiatric disorders: Very common: irritability
        delayed hypersensitivity reactions

        Rare: abnormal liver function tests

        Unknown frequency: muscular weakness

        Please note that ASD is unable to be diagnosed in children under 2 years of age as it as seen as a development disorder.

        If you look at histories of many of these children, these are the symptoms which arose early on.

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        Vax comment

        Ng,
        The US Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has been compensating vaccine injured babies and infants for decades. A number of these have been for development delay – whilst not specifically ‘autism’, ailments like ASD and PDD-NOS and encephalitis leading to ASD-like symptoms.
        http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1681&context=pelr

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        nic

        Actually the package inserts for quite a few state that. They also say DTaP can cause SIDS. ALL say they have not been evaluated for carcinogenous effects or effects on reproduction. This is in the PACKAGE INSERT from the MANUFACTURER. So, if you want grandkids, you may want to think twice

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          Jenna

          If you want to live long enough to have grandkids, don’t leave the country, live under a rock, and…is it colonic irrigation that they are now recommending for “cleansing the immune system”? Lost track.

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        effurvax

        ‘Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.’

        ~Diphtheria Toxoids and Pertussis Vaccine Tripedia®
        from the package insert

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        Faybian

        I can’t believe this debate is still going on…anywho.
        There is a very large,thick book produced regularly called the MIMS. It lists all the drugs/medication available in the country, well legally anyway. It goes in depth into each drug, chemical composition, action, side effect, adverse reactions, precautions, drug interactions, safety for pregnancy and sports (common, unusual and potential) etc. This information is on the package inserts. If people read up this information on even common antibiotics, they wouldnt want to take them. Whether anyone likes it or not, modern medicine is a juggling act and nothing is 100% safe. I think most people can accept this.

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      guest

      actually, in the US, autism is listed as a side effect of the DaPT shot.

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        Vax comment

        Actually – it’s not.
        http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-dtap.pdf

        Remember, the autism debate comes down to semantics of language. The vaccine information sheet (link above) says ‘Permanent brain damage’ and it does not say ‘autism’. The fact that some brain damage can lead to various ASD usually diagnosed as PDD-NOS might be similar to autism, but it is not autism.
        This point has been demonstrated in the US many times by their Vaccine Injury Compensation Program whereby they compensate for ASD, AEDM, PDD-NOS – but not autism. It is acknowledged that vaccines can, in some circumstances, cause autistic-related disorders, but not autism.
        Again, it is semantics of language. The layman would argue that if someone was left in an autistic-styled state, then that’s as good as autism… the medical fraternity, at this point in time, disagrees.

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          Larissa

          Actually. IT DOES. One can clearly see how uneducated you are by posting a little “information sheet” as your vaccine insert. Did you EVER even read an ACTUAL vaccine insert? Here, I’ll post one for you, and if you scroll down to side effects you will CLEARLY see AUTISM as a side effect, as well as SIDS and a whole lot of others. Educate yourself before posting lies.

          http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM101580.pdf

          And to make it easier for you, go to page 11.

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            Larissa

            BTW, this article is a bunch of BS.

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            lucindainthesky

            “Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.”

            This quite clearly states there is no established causal relationship between autism and vaccines. It says that those conditions are included on the list because that is what some people have voluntarily reported. You are just interpreting differently to suit yourself. But that is not what it says.

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              effurvax

              “Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.”

              -
              This means as long as we never accurately compile all the evidence then we will never have to admit that our product is destroying lives. same as tobacco science.

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              lucindainthesky

              No it means that no evidence has been found to suggest that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and SIDS or Autism Spectrum Disorders. Many studies have been conducted. Parents volunteered information is not adequate as medical evidence.

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            Vax comment

            Larissa,
            I’m really sorry about this, but you should read this stuff before posting. If you look at the top paragraph of page 11 (thanks for letting me know page number) you will see that the rate of SIDS was 0.4 and 0.8 per 1,000 births and the normal whole population SIDS rate is 1.5. In other words, SIDS after having the vaccine is lower than SIDS in normal population. The paragraph states, ‘By chance alone, some cases of SIDS can be expected to follow…’ meaning that SIDS can ‘naturally’ occur after recieving the vaccine, but that does not mean that the vaccine causes SIDS.
            There is a difference between correlation and causation. Even though we see correlation, it does not necessarily mean causation.
            I hope this helps.

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              Anonymous

              Actually, you’re the one who didn’t read it correctly. What “normal” population? They were talking about SIDS rate of German population and US population. If you notice, the Germans had a lot less SIDS cases then the US. They were also comparing SIDS rates from 1985-1991 where they were still using the DTP vax and after the 1991 when they came out with DtaP. Now, if you did some research you would know that DTP caused A LOT of reactions, like brain damage and deaths. So yes, when they compared the rate of 1980′s SIDS to the 1990′s, the numbers went down. They also state that “because of seriousness or frequency of reporting” they had to list SIDS as a side effect. Meaning that it happened so often that they HAD to add it as a side effect. How many times does a coincidence becomes a FACT? 10, 20, 100? How many babies die from SIDS? A lot more than that. If they actually do decide to be honest and admit that their vaccine causes SIDS, do you know how many lawsuits they would be looking at? Thousands. Not to mention that no one will ever get any one of their vaccines, ever. They just can’t afford to do that, can’t they?

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    juliabond

    My son has Autism. He has had it since birth. It won’t kill him or anyone else.

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      clarinette

      The voice of reason :)

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      Becca Warner

      Good for you. Autism may be a more high-maintenance way of life for some childern but it in NO WAY devalues them. I personally think little ones with autism are a just a bit ahead of the rest of us on the evolutionary ladder and we are the ones we need time to catch up. My goodness, my cousin who has severe learning disabilities and ASD has some of the most amazing talents, besides just being a sweet little boy. One of his ‘gifts’ is he can hear any dial tone (like when you use dial-up on your computer) and he can tell you what number was dialed! If that isn’t amazing I don’t know what is. Good for you, Mama, for having some common sense about all this.

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      Jenna

      I always feel for parents of autism who get told my the anti-vax community that they “harmed” their child be giving them vaccinations. Autism isn’t any form of “harm” and children with autism don’t need to be “cured”. It is a condition, a state of being that we can medically describe to assist with living, but that doesn’t mean that it is some kind of “disease”. My brother was diagnosed on the autism spectrum disorder when he was a toddler, and he is an extremely bright boy with an incredible memory- he has a different skill set than myself or my other brother, but he is a talented individual that does not need to be “treated”, unless you are talking about treating him with respect, which I don’t think the anti-vax community has any intention of doing.

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    Jane DJ

    Of course, the Amish do vaccinate,
    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/2007/04/autism-amongst-the-amish/
    and there are autistic Amish. In fact, Olmsted even missed a clinic in the heart of Amish country that treats autistic Amish children.
    http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=69
    Unfortunately, facts didn’t stand in the way of a good myth, which has only grown in the five years since Olmsted first imagined it.

    Words to live by when you rely on finding evidence to fit your beliefs:
    “If you don’t look for contradictory data, you won’t find it. But your critics will.”

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    joe

    although there are many interviews on the site i posted
    i recommend this one.
    divshare.com/download/15255137-2d0

    also note these news stories

    Lab creates killer virus by accident
    guardian.co.uk/science/2001/jan/11/genetics.uknews

    Dutch scientists have created a flu virus which is so deadly … Friday 25 November 2011
    dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/11/expert_unease_over_deadly_flu.php

    so you think my nazi statement was fear mongering?
    take a reality check please.

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      NoTinFoilHere

      The reality is that the avian flu virus is quite capable of naturally mutating into an airborne strain, and the researchers are trying to pre-empt this possibility, so as to develop ways to fight it.

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    joe

    what they want people to believe that if they remove the mercury (after they had to admit it was in them) the vaccines are safe
    the mmr vaccine never had mercury in it to begin with
    the people who are promoting these vaccines are simply like the nazis
    remember them, they were actually real.

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      Andy

      No, no, no. The Illuminati, who are behind the Vaccine Mass Extermination Program, is a race of reptilian shape-shifters. The Nazis wanted to be like them.

      It’s important that you get these things around the right way – otherwise people will think you don’t know what you’re talking about.

      Sheesh!

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      Jenna

      The scientists who create these vaccines often had to use their own children as subjects way back in history, and the scientists who create these vaccines now are making them for their family members, their friends, and themselves, so that they can be protected. Do you think they just throw stuff in for fun?

      Comparing pharmaceutical companies (or anything else for that matter) is absolutely disrespectful to descendants of holocaust survivors. You should be ashamed for using the word so frivolously to stir up controversy.

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      Dave

      It’s well know internet folk law that once someone brings up the Nazi’s or Hitler the thread is dead. It’s the tactics of desperates that can not create strong arguments. Congratulations

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    joe

    notice, the article above is admiting most of the horrific truth while trying to diminish the health impacts.

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      Andy

      Yeah, I also noticed that the article is, err what? Hang on – you forgot to provide links to your facts -or should that be FACTS?

      I think your capslock is broken. You can’t advise people about the TRUTH without a fully-functioning capslock. Please get your keyboard repaired quickly so you can continue to help spread the WORD.

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    joe

    Who do you believe?
    Money interested parties such as the sponsers of this article,
    or those who actually have more at stake than dollars?
    If you are able to stand the actual facts why not go here and download for free some interviews on the subject by people of actual integriity.
    http://ministryoftrutharchives.wordpress.com/page/13/

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      chrisw

      And who are the sponsers of this article Joe? Of course I should have known it, the big pharmaceutical companys of course! According to the Anti Vac lobby the big pharmas pay off:

      1. The thousands of GPs who ‘push’ the vaccinations onto innocent children
      2. The World Health Organisation
      3. The media
      4. The scientific researcher who finds no harm in the ingredients
      5. The Food and Drug Administration/safety watchdogs
      AND the author of this article, gosh it’s amazing the drug companies that peddle these poisons have any money left at all!!!

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        brightrfish

        Wow! I must be due a cheque from the big pharma companies any day now!

        Wait… still no cheque for me or any of my family members. I’ve been fully vaccinated for over 30 years. My mum must be really angry that she hasn’t received her pay-off yet!

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    bernie

    thank you to you all for commenting on my questions.

    I am even more confused and unsure now. some arguements i cannot even follow – sorry Andy, I’m a softy when it comes to animals so I could not read yours.

    I am not asking a ethical question.

    i essntially have 2 questions: 1. I want to know why is it that immunised children are still spreading the diseases – if the job of vaccines is to mitigate the spead as well as improve your immune sysytem – I have taken this reasoning from all of your responses. I understand vaccines have a two way job.

    and 2. if point one above is the case, why are unimmunised children more of a danger to others than immunised children? I would have thought they were more at risk?

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      Jane DJ

      ” I want to know why is it that immunised children are still spreading the diseases”
      Because a small percentage of immunised children will not seroconvert (ie develop antibodies) and are therefore able to catch the disease, shed virus and be contagious. IF they live somewhere where there is a low rate of immunization, there will be lots of those unimmunised kids susceptible to catching AND SPREADING the disease, which answers your second question “why are unimmunised children more of a danger to others than immunised children” If they live where everyone immunises, if a child gets the disease, there is a buffer of immunised population around them and the virus has nowhere to go, and will eventually disappear from the population (hello smallpox and hopefully soon, polio).
      Those children who are immunised and don’t become immune, along with those with legitimate medical reasons to not be immunised, and those too young to be immunised should theoretically be the only ones vulnerable to disease, and need the protection of herd immunity. Unfortunately, when anti-vaccination mentality takes hold ( take note of the current measles outbreaks at the moment in notoriously anti-vax communities), the herd immunity breaks down – even at 80% vaccination rates. THis is a good diagram of the concept
      http://science-at-home.org/how-herd-immunity-works/

      and has no upsetting bunny connotations to worry delicate constitiutions.

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      bernie

      jane dj – thank you. crystal clear. very helpful.

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        Andy

        Glad someone was able to explain it without hurting any theoretical bunnies :)

        I will confess, I thought the use of bunnies might be an issue for some people that’s why I invented a “new species” that needed “special bullets”.

        I’ll have to think of a more animal-friendly analogy for future use.

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      Anonymous

      Children getting vaccinated are not being vaccinated to be “immune and protected” from the disease what the vaccines are made to do is help the body reconize and fight the disease off better if they should come in contact with it naturally, no vaccines protect you from not getting any of the diseases and the fact that its injected directly into their bloodstreams is even worse because its bypassing the bodies “filters” you can say as opposed to getting it naturally by breathing it in. its a set up for disaster and the toxins and carinogens listed ARE in vaccines, package inserts are everything!

      The reason unvaccinated kids are more of a risk at contracting such diseases is NOT because they are unvaccinated and automatically the cause of such diseases being spread, its because many of the vaccines contain live viruses and children SHED these viruses, but unvaccinated children are not neccessarily going to contract the disease, not to mention vaccines fail at their jobs all the time so a vaccinated kid could easily pick up say the chicken pox via another vaccinated kid shedding it. its certaintly not because an unvaccinated kid gave it to him, being unvaccinated does not automatically make them a carrier of any or all of these diseases!

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        Jane DJ

        Punctuation is your friend. Learn some, then someone might be bothered to decide that what you write comes from a base of intelligence. Otherwise, consider your ramblings ignored.

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    SpettySpotoff

    finnish mark

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    bernie

    wow. so many comments on this topic. I was hoping if somebody could clarify something for me?

    why do people think that it is the unimmunised kids that are a danger to the immunised kids?

    the examples given in these posts are kids/people who have been immunised and are still contracting or ctching the disease and then passing it on to both immunised and non-immunised kids.

    I’m just not sure why unimmunised kids are the target of this argurement. if the immunisation arguement is run properly then an immunised kid would have stronger immunity and an unimmunisaed kid would be at a highr risk – would they not?

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      Rick Morton

      Hi Bernie!

      The issue is that the immunisations just HELP you fight the diseases, but won’t always stop you getting them. So the more people that *don’t* immunise, the more chance it has of spreading in the community and the more chance we all have of coming into contact with it. Vaccinations are great, vaccinations when everyone has them are even better.

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        bernie

        thenks for your answe, but I am not sure how it applies to my question?

        I was immunised for everything as a child, and i caught everything, in some cases more than once.

        these diaseases are still in the community though. chicken pox, measles are still frequent visitors.

        i don’t see how immunisation contributes to stopping the “spread”? if their primary job is to HELP fight if you actually get it. But then I look at Polio, and appreciate the effect vaccines have had there, and I am a little baffled. I’d love to hear from the author of this article or another doctor who appreciates and understands both sides of the story?

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          Jane DJ

          Bernie, an immunization sensitises your immune system to recognise the disease, so if you are then subsequently exposed to the actual disease, the presence of ready-made antibodies will essentially neutralize the virus/bacterium and stop its replication cycle before you go through the disease process and therefore prevents you shedding the microbe, which is what would makes you contagious and spread the disease.

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          Andy

          I think of it this way…

          Let’s say your local authority wants to eradicate a new species of rabbit and that this requires both a recognisable picture of the rabbit and a working shotgun with special bullets for this species.

          The bullets can easily be made at home, but you have to identify the rabbit first and then it takes a while and the rabbits do a LOT of damage fast. The local authority has already done the hard work of identifying the species and producing plans for the special bullets which they make available to everyone.

          Now, almost everyone has a shotgun and MOST of them take up the offer of bullet plans and picture. They start making their bullets and keep an eye out for the rabbits. When they see one, they check it against the picture, and, once confirmed, they attempt to shoot the rabbit.

          Sometimes the gun jams and sometimes the shooter misses and in these cases the property will suffer some damage – until the owner manages to get control. But, most properly-equipped properties will suffer little, if any, noticeable damage at all.

          Meanwhile, those who refused the offer of assistance (and those who could not accept it for reasons beyond their control) are still trying to identify the rabbit and make special bullets. Their properties are being overrun, suffering significant damage, some beyond repair, and the rabbits continue to reproduce and spread from there.

          If enough property owners refused the assistance, the rabbits will never be brought under control.

          The AVN, meantime, are saying “What rabbits? There’s no rabbits here!”

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          Faybian

          Really? Including tetanus, diphtheria and polio? You must be a marvel of modern medicine.
          I think you’re an anti vaxxer posing as someone a little confused.

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        nic

        You may want to check the definition of immune. Sheeple.

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      sianmorton

      Bernie, unfortunately it is not quite as simple as that.

      It has never been claimed that vaccination is 100% effective in all people. However, if vaccination rates remain high the pool of people who can easily contract and spread a given disease remains small. Concerns arise when more and more people choose not to be vaccinated, particularly when they base their choices on extremely poor, if not dangerous, information. All the available credible scientific evidence finds that the benefits of vaccination outweigh any risks.

      Ultimately people need to find a balance between their rights as individuals and the impact of their choices on the community as a whole.

      The position of science on this issue is clear. Now it is over to you to sort out any conflicting ethical issues.

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        MumofOne

        I have a little question for you, Dr Dunlop and Mummamia seeing you seem to love writing about BABIES DYING (capitalised to improve the fear factor) and WHOOPING COUGH (insert scary music here)…

        Why do we have the highest vaccination rates – over 95% baby vaccination rates for whooping cough (and other) vaccines for over 11 years – yet the HIGHEST whooping cough rates ever?? Why is Australia is having one of the largest outbreaks EVER (even higher than in the 1960′s before the vaccine had decent parental buy-in) despite the fact that most of the ‘herd’ is vaccinated. Should be ‘up’ the herd immunity rates yet again??

        Have a look at the 2010 Californian whooping cough outbreak where 2 out of every 3 children fully vaccinated. Strange indeed. Yet no one mentions these interesting figures here…

        When the vaccine was first introduced in the 1940′s it had an uptake of around 9% for the single vaccine. Parents didn’t trust it and it caused ‘provocation polio’, (Google that one Mia!) so it was canned and rereleased as three doses (still no interest from their target market) so it was combined to create the DPT.
        But slowly that 1 shot turned to 3, turned to 4 shots and then to 5 whilst our contraction rates of whooping cough still goes up.

        Seems like it might be less effective than the often touted 80%…..or maybe not really at all?

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          Anonymous

          Pertussis has mutated BECAUSE of vaccines. Some areas in Cali had a 100% vaccination level and not one UNvaccinated kid got it. hmmmm The higher the vax rate the more people had it. Areas with lowe vax rates are not having the outbreaks. Go figure. Explain that one pro-vaxers. Explain why more vaccinated kids get sick than unvaccinated.

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            Jenna

            Okay, stating that vaccines cause mutation just shows that you don’t know the difference between a bacterium and a virus. Crash lesson: viruses are what I called “pirate zombies” when I describe them to kids. They are not “living” because they do not posses the capacity to reproduce. To be able to create more virus, they need to “highjack” a cell and use it for it’s own purposes. During this “highjacking” process, sometimes DNA gets mixed up in the packaging, which accounts for the high mutation rates of some viruses (think seasonal flu, for instance).

            If you get vaccinated, and your body has an appropriate response that allows you to form antibodies (most healthy individuals), then there is a significant decrease that the virus is going to have an opportunity to get into a cell in the first place. This results in a slowing of the mutation process, the more people that get vaccinated. One of the reasons why individuals who work on farms are recommended to get vaccinations, so they don’t pick up an animal virus that manages to combine with a “human” virus (think swine flu).

            Did that clear up some of you misinformation about mutation?

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      nic

      that would mean people would have to use logic. IF vaccines work, why are your children at risk? Why do you think an unvaccinated child will get your child sick? The child has to HAVE the illness first. SMDH

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    Nicole

    Thanks so much for this. Unfortunately the anti-vacc loonies will never read or believe it as they are not interested in facts. I am not a particularly judgmental person, but the anti-vacc movement pushes all my buttons. They are putting MY children at risk through compromising herd immunity. That’s unforgiveable

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      brightrfish

      Well said, Nicole! I feel exactly the same way about the anti-vacc community.

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    Jesse

    And… very disappointed to see this article on your website, Mia. A lot of people read your blog and believe in your opinions and this is just shameful. Vaccinations ARE dangerous and mostly unnecessary. The best thing every parent can do is INVESTIGATE BEFORE YOU VACCINATE (something the AVN site is very good for, for a start). And I don’t mean ask your dr. They are on the drug company payroll.

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      Mia

      Jesse – you are deluded.
      This is possibly the MM post of which I am most proud to have published.
      The only thing the AVN is good at is spreading harmful propaganda to vulnerable parents that endangers the lives of their babies and others.

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      Funkhouse

      AVN is a complete joke. They ignore anything that doesn’t support their wild conspiracies. They’re still referring to Wakefield as a ‘doctor’ even though he was stripped of the title.

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      Andy

      I assume you mean the Lizard-People payroll Jesse. I read about THAT on the AVN blog too. Very credible indeed.

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      Anonymous

      Wow, Jesse, just wow…So you’re saying that my family GP – who quite often recommendeds natural remedies before a prescription (which I don’t think he’d do if he was on the drug companies’ payroll), lied to me when he said that the risk to my child from immunisation was miniscule? That there was more risk to my son by not vaccinating?

      You need a serious reality check. If you want to investigate, there are plenty of more reliable, informed sources with facts (yes, actual honest-to-God facts! not the rubbish the AVN creates) about the pros and cons of vaccination.

      And as for unneccesary? I hope you get measles. Tell me how you like it, how it affects your health, and whether you’d like to subject an infant to it, then tell me it’s unneccesary.

      Peace out.

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    Jesse

    Dr Dunlop, I don’t know how you sleep at night.

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      Mia

      Rachael sleeps the untroubled sleep of someone who is doing great work and helping to raise awareness that could save lives.

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      Funkhouse

      Like the rest of us – happy and warm in the knowledge that we’ve done the best for our families.

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      rachaeldunlop

      Hi Jesse, Actually I’m not sleeping well at the moment having just come back from a conference trying to find a cure for ALS or motor neuron disease.

      I agree that you should investigate before you vaccinate, but the AVN is not where you should look. No need to believe me either – just look at what the NSW gov said about their information

      The Commission’s investigation established that the AVN website:

      provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
      contains information that is incorrect and misleading
      quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.

      I think everyone should decide for themselves. But if I saw this, I would think twice.

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    Jane DJ

    Several recent comments, including mine seem to have vanished from the top of this post., above Funkhouse’s :( The comment thread was quite civil at the time – did it get Hoovered for a reason?)

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      Jane DJ

      Nevermind – found it!

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    Kris2040

    Just so everyone knows, this “questioning” is a big old piece of Antivax propaganda. Renee, I doubt you’d like the questions most of us would ask.

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      Kris2040

      It’s marketed by that renowned and reviled quack Mercola, Barbara Loe Fisher and Palevsky.

      Where are the vaccine preventable disease injured people, Renee?

      It IS anti-vax propaganda. Mercola’s link: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/30/the-greater-good.aspx

      The age of autism, Killer Vaccines, IAS and the AVN are all flogging it as speaking the trooof. I won’t waste my download limit.

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        Jane DJ

        Gasp – shame on you Kris for not respecting specialists in woo-ology!

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        Geekery

        “Hundreds, perhaps thousands…”

        Wow, with well researched facts like that I’m amazed nobody takes you seriously. I like your use of rhetoric questions to add more haziness to your already flimsy claims.

        As for the video – as a media professional it DOES fall under the category of propaganda.

        Before you spin out the same retort, I am a parent, but I care enough about my children to protect them from preventable illness.

        Best you read this before you try replying: http://houseofgeekery.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/five-reasons-not-to-vaccinate-your-child/

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        Mia

        Someone choosing to whether or not to breast feed their child doesn’t have the potential to kill someone else’s baby. That is the difference.
        Vaccinate. Listen to doctors and science.

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          effurvax

          Vaccines killed my baby and severely injured my daughter. She has recovered now in case you might have cared. Obviously we have refused to sacrifice anymore of our children. My unvaxxed children are no more a threat than fully vaxxed children seeing that they are still carriers of the diseases they are supposedly attempting to eradicate. Also they are sick more often than unvaxxed children. *note: this is an unstudied observation from parents of unvaxxed children.

          Now~ many ‘anti-vaccine’ parents were vaccinating until something terrible happend. So you can understand why we feel that it is important to share our experiences. If someone chooses not to vaccinate before something terrible happens~that choice is theirs alone. We are well aware of the diseases and longterm side effects of them but we are also aware of the long term side effects of vaccination. ie: death
          Nowhere has any agency said that vaccines are 100% safe or effective. Nowhere can anyone prove without a dought (or severely manipulated studies) that higher vaccination rates offer anymore protection. <Check out outbreaks in 100% vaccinated comunities.
          It is clear that you have done very little research into this very complex subject. I am not trying to insult you. At one time I too was not well researched.

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            Kris2040

            For someone who is so well researched, you’re surely not purporting the myth that vaccinated people shed the illness they’re vaccinated for now, are you?

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        Jane DJ

        ” I am very well researched as much as a mother who doesnt have a science degree can be.”
        And therin lies the rub. I am a mother and a holder of a science degree and can say that it is the most arrogant thing in the world for you to think you have researched the subject better than scientists. The REAL science behind the development and implementation of vaccines is mind-blowingly complex, and you rely on non-scientific groups with an agenda to push to interpret (wrongly) the current evidence for you, dumb it down, hype up the fear factor, and voila, all of a sudden you know better. Well you are wrong. Wrong. WRONG.

  28. Pingback: Vaccination: Making the right choice seminar with Meryl Dorey « Losing In The Lucky Country

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    Funkhouse

    The AVN recently posted this article on their blog – possibly only have read the title. You’ll know what I mean soon enough…

    http://houseofgeekery.wordpress.com/2011/10/20/five-reasons-not-to-vaccinate-your-child/

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      lancepenna

      Hahahahahahahahahaha.

      Not the first time, and it won’t be the last that Meryl posts without reading.

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    Georgie

    As a child I was not able to be vaccinated due to a severe allergy to some part of the vaccines. Subsequently I managed to get all “childhood diseases” including ones which weren’t common in Australia in the 1970′s and spent much of my childhood in seclusion. Thankfully my mum decided that we would deal with the allergic consequences when it came to the Rubella vaccination (I received it and was very sick!) Now a parent to a healthy 18 month old, I didn’t think twice to vaccinate him. Not vaccinating him wasn’t an option! I would never wish upon anyone what I had gone through as a child and I am terrified that he will go to kinder/school and catch these preventable diseases because someone else chose not to vaccinate their children. While I am pro-choice, surely when something like illness & diseases effects others, there shouldn’t be a choice.

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      emmamcintyre

      I’m the same. I couldn’t be immunised due to allergies. I had mumps, chickenpox, measles, german measles, the works. It was horrible.

      My daughter is immunised and I ask everyone else to do the same. I don’t want to get sick and I sure as hell don’t want anyone else to.

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    Anonymous

    Oh my, I have really tried to find a way to believe in the ‘Anti-Vaccination Network’ through all this but I am done!!! If you want to see how self destructive and what sort of people follow and run this organisation go to their facebook page!!! And then go and read the Stop the Australian Vaccination Network for some sensible logic!!!!! (you do need to be quick as they are trying as best they can to put out spot fires and save face a little – AVN deletes many things) I know not all members and supporters of the AVN are nutters, but you need to see who it is that you are following!! My gosh – I think it may have started out with the best intentions but the horse has well and truly bolted – wow, insane!!!!!

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      Andy

      “you do need to be quick as they are trying as best they can to put out spot fires and save face a little…”

      I had to read that a couple of times to be sure you weren’t saying that STOP AVN are putting out fires. I see you meant the AVN.

      Anyway, it seems AVN have put all the fires out for now (it was more of a raging inferno at one point, btw) and Meryl’s saying “I don’t really mind a bit of charcoal around the place.”

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    Renee

    There is a lot of reference to bogus websites etc but I am pretty confident that most parents who choose not to vaccinate do more than Internet research. There are plenty of published books written by very well educated health professionals who have very sensible scientific based reasons for not vaccinating or choosing safe shot strategies. I know plenty of doctors who choose not to vaccinate their own children. It really is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Parenting is tough and no decision of mine is made lightly. With the decrease of some childhood diseases due to vaccination there has been a huge influx of others. Asthma,diabetes, add, celiac disease, just to name a few! Most parents who choose not to vaccinate dont have their heads in the clouds and make very informed decisions based on fact not some bullshit website on google.

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      Sue

      Renee, can you tell us what sources you have researched that tell you that diabetes, asthma and coeliac disease are caused by vaccination? I’d like to hear your “very sensible scientific based reasons for not vaccinating ” and what research evidence supports it.

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      Deb

      It would have to be a very informed decision to decide that the health department schedule based on the work of thousands of doctors and scientists is all wrong.

      Which books did you use? And how did you decide that those authors were better informed and qualified than the people who contributed to the schedule?

      For example, the promoter of one particularly bad (from a scientific point of view) popular book, Dr Bob Sears, was the paediatrician of the intentionally unvaccinated index patient in a measles outbreak. And it was actually in his waiting room that 4 other children were infected, including a 10 month old baby who was hospitalised.

      Let’s hope none of those children go on to develop SSPE.

      You would hope a paediatrician would know what he is talking about but unfortunately one who facilitated an outbreak is not someone I would take vaccine advice from.

      http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2011/04/2008-measles-in-dr-bob-sears-waiting.html

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      Andy

      There are plenty of books written by well-educated theologists claiming the Christian god is real. There are plenty of other books written by equally well-educated theologists claiming the Muslim god is real. I’m sure the Sikhs, Hindus and others have plenty of “research” that shows all the other theological tomes to be wrong. Let’s face it, they can’t all be right.

      Anyone can write and publish a book these days. Anyone. But writing a book does not make you right. It’s more important, from a scientific standpoint, to get your ideas past your peers by publishing in quality journals. Ask yourself why your favourite authors chose to go the “direct to market” path instead – and see if you can answer without raising a conspiracy theory.

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      Grendel

      Renee,

      Current research into disorders such as coeliac and asthma point in a much more interesting direction than you suggest by blaming them on vaccines. One theory currently being tested by research is that the immune system is some individuals becomes overactive and attacks the body itself. The research indicated that this over response would normally deal with toxins released from parasites such as hookworms and a very promising line of enquiry exists – including clinical trials to test this theory.

      Improved public health has resulted in several things occuring at once – increased vaccination has led to a decrease in the diseases vaccines target, and sanitation has reduced our exposure to parasites. The fact that these these occurred concurrently does not mean that they are related. Where a possible relationship is identified – such as a potential link between the absence of parasites and an increase in autoimmune diseases, then this needs to be researched.

      We all want a quick fix, or something to blame, but vaccines have been a quick target of blame for a multitude of problems but one that is repeatedly shown to be not the problem at all.

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      Dr Justine

      Renee- I would love you to publicly name JUST ONE doctor who has not vaccinated their child- JUST ONE, (since you know plenty) and I would be happy to approach them for their opinion.

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      Mia

      No Renee, it’s just damned if you don’t.

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    maryjanepindar

    It seems like when you have already made up your mind to believe something then there is no amount of evidence that will change your opinion. A Dr.’s opinion is just that a highly educated guess and I guess that is why it is suggested that you get a second opinion when you talk to your Dr. Because they are human and the scope of their knowledge is limited to what they have learned or read or experienced where as another Dr. may have different knowledge based on their own background and experience. You have to keep an open mind when researching on vaccines because you have to take in to consideration what that individual has to gain by suggesting their opinion. If their opinion is in line with the so called scientific research conducted by drug companies then they are praised, published, and confirmed as being a good Dr. But to suggest that your own scientific research does not align with what drug companies would like you to believe then you are ridiculed, persecuted and your career is over. So why would anyone put themselves in that situation; simply put when you know the truth you cannot help but declare it. It is worth career suicide to save lives and prevent horrible brain damaging effects. Don’t just dismiss an article a) because it isn’t written by a Dr. or b) because it doesn’t align with what you already believe. There are some very convincing arguments on both sides of the vaccine debate, do your research and follow your own logical conclusion. Oh and you may have to visit these pro-choice, pro-rights or otherwise known as pro unvaccinated sights in order to get information because it is suppressed, look at the sources of the information a lot of these articles are based on scientific facts and research and archived government collected data. Here’s a Dr.s opinion I’d like to share: he’s a retired neurosurgeon and has nothing to gain for presenting these facts. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/blaylock1.html

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      Jane DJ

      Sorry, luv, a retired doctor who preaches anti-science and promotes pseudoscience is still a quack, no matter how many letters after his name.
      http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html
      I hope you especially rock up to him if you get cancer maryjanepindar, because he has a cure, you know. His supplements also cure Alzheimers and Parkinsons, pleeeease use all of his special tablets, someone with your insight deserves his Brain Repair Formula in more ways than one.

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      Andy

      Right on!

      whale.to is definitely my goto place for suppressed information.

      One of my favourites is “Nature of Reptilian Shapeshifting and Hosting Process” http://www.whale.to/b/rep9.html

      They have lots, lots more about the conspiracies being hatched by our shape-shifting reptilian overlords… http://www.whale.to/b/reptilian_h.html

      Yep, for sure, for reals. Given a choice between trusting the “opinion” of a medical specialist and someone who believes the world is run by lizards, I’m going with those who risk their lives by exposing the reptilian secret society for all to see.

      Nice work Mary. BTW, do you know where I can buy a fashionable tinfoil hat, the ones around here actually look like they were assembled by reptiles. Ugly!

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      Andy

      I tried linking to the super-secret information about our reptilian overlords also exposed at whale.to but my comments never appeared. Clearly it’s a conspiracy to silence me. MaryJane, they’re onto us. Need more tinfoil now!

      But here’s a trick the overlords don’t know about (Google search for shapeshifting and whale.to together. Their secrets will be revealed to you too)

      But, in all seriousness maryjanepindar, given that you accept doctors are fallible creatures, on what basis to you choose to trust the word of one discredited doctor who actually sells expensive products directly to users over the word of the vast, vast, vast majority of the medical profession?

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        Jane DJ

        Oh, wow. Poe’s law has this very eve been revealed unto me, by Googling thusly.

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        Andy

        Ha! Seems I scared the Illuminati into action and now my controversial comment suddenly appears. A win for reason and another blow against our cold-blooded manipulators. Fight the good fight against these conspirators!

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      sianmorton

      ‘A Dr.’s opinion is just that a highly educated guess’

      Actually, no.

      It is entirely your right to make decisions on behalf of your own children and family, but do not ever confuse that right with making a decision based on real evidence. The freedoms in our society allow us to believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, ghosts, monsters under the bed, homeopathy, reiki, reflexology and all number of deities, but this freedom doesn’t mean that they actually exist or are in any way effective. There is an abundance of evidence supporting vaccination. You have simply made a choice to dismiss it. Having rights doesn’t make you right.

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        Andy

        Lots of drive-by anti-vaxers apparently unwilling to defend their ironic, hypocritical and usually-illogical anti-science views.

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      David

      Hi, You are in part correct. A doctor’s opinion is just his/her opinion wheen you are talking about music, cars, golf or hairstyles. A doctor (apart from your aformentioned Baylock) does not actually give his/her opinion during an appointment, they give you advice based on a combination of personal experience but mainly the evidence based on the scientific literature. The doctor may say opinion but it is in fact a precis of the current scientific knowledge tinged with personla experience

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      Andy

      In other news, my mechanic’s “opinion” is that I need my brake pads replaced. I’m thinking now that he must be wrong because his knowledge is limited to what he’s been taught and he stands to gain by charging me to do the job and also making a profit on the parts he’s recommending – parts that were made by engineering companies that want you to believe that only mechanically-engineered products can be used to stop your car (Fred Flintstone used his feet but that method is suppressed because it can’t be patented so you won’t even find mention of it in modern automotive books… although, maybe on whale.to).

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        Sue

        This is very funny. Well done.

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        Jane DJ

        Duly plagarised and used as ammo on AVN’ers, thanks Andy.

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      Dr Justine

      Well in emergency where I work- when a child has a cardiac arrest from drowning and is brought in with CPR in progress- my opinion (or guess) about what to do is the only chance this child has. It is based on experience and education and while you certainly have the right to question my practice, you do not have the right to interfere in my treatment of the child unless you are a greater authority with more experience and more education- your thoughts are welcome, your interference is not. Same with vaccination- let the people with the knowledge and experience get on with their job and stop interfering unless you are willing to do the hard yards and get to their level or beyond. I do wonder why the ant-vax nutters don’t go and do microbiology or infectious disease degrees…or maybe I don’t.

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      Funkhouse

      Who is this Dr. Because? They sound like a quack.

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    Mumfi

    I am the mother of a toddler recently diagnosed with autism and global developmenatl delay. I watched the discussion on sky news regarding vaccination. I have a science degree and have worked in the medical laboratory field for 16 years both in Australia and the UK.
    My son was given all his vaccinations and has not missed any. He was a healthy baby boy that was breast fed and was given and still is given all the love, affection, toys, home cooked meals a mother could give.
    He has non regressive autism which means it was present from when he was a baby rather than the regressive autism that rears around 18 months. He is our only child and we accept his condition although the $30000 per year we have to pay in early intervention and the sleep, dietary, behavioural aspect is hard to take at times.

    I am not anti vaccination but I do have a question, why is hep b vaccine given to newborn babies? I never had this vaccine until I started working in hospitals and it was compulsory if you are exposed to blood and body fluid. I have a high titre level or immunity to hep b and from what our paediatrican has told us, it is only necessary to vaccinate your child for hep b if you are a carrier.
    so another question is if pertussis or whooping cough is raging ( and I know because it is one of many tests I perform at work) then why isn’t this given to newborn babies? They are more likely to die from this than hep b.
    That is the science…..

    My son was given hep b at birth that did contain mercury. The reason is contains mercury is because it is an antibacterial and antifungal agent that prevents contamination when the ampoule is used for several babies.
    This vaccine is “shared” like the swine flu was when it was released to save money so it was pierced several times and this allows air to get in.

    If only they would create the ampoule for each child. You see, before you administer the hep b vaccine it must be mixed many times to create a homogeneous solution and most of the time the nurse/ Dr doesn’t mix it for long enough. If your child id the unlucky one to get the last dose, then guess what- you are going to get the highest concentration of mercury in your vaccination.

    One last point form a scientist in the medical field, most of the studies/ research that has been done to PROVE autism is not linked to vaccines is usually funded by pharmaceutical companies -they are the ones with all the money.

    As I said before I am not anti vaccine but I do question why unnecessary vaccines are given to babies. Autism is genetic but there is environmental assaults in the body of these beautiful children that have been through so much. Even the smallest amount of mercury can have a detrimental outcome, until you live with a child with autism you have no idea the hardship and grief that never goes away.

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      Deb

      The recommended Hep B birth dose does not have thiomersal, I don’t know why hospitals would choose to use the other when it is not recommended. In fact according to the state schedules, the NT is the only state/territory using Engerix B (the one with thiomersal), all other states use H-B-Vax II (without thiomersal) which does come in single-use syringes. I don’t know why the NT use it, it’s possibly to do with remoteness and storage issues or historical. Although at the same time, the dose of thiomersal in Engerix-B is less than 1 millionth of a gram, which is vanishingly small. http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-hepatitisb

      The reason newborn babies are given a birth dose of Hep B is because the earlier they are infected, the greater their chance of developing chronic disease and the greater their chance of that developing into cirrhosis and cancer.

      Unfortunately Hep B is tricky – it can take 6 months between infection and testing positive and infection can be asymptomatic so people don’t even know they have it. So testing women during pregnancy is not definitive even if they test negative. Plus mothers are the most common source of infection, but not the only one. Other carriers within the household can infect babies – infections can come through saliva or other secretions, it is NOT just a sexually transmitted disease.

      Australia originally began only targeting high risk groups. Then the NT, which has many high risk people, began vaccinating all babies. This was so much more successful than the targeted program that the recommendation was changed to all Australian babies. It’s not through some sort of laziness of not wanting to test everyone or not wanting to embarrass high risk people – it’s because not all cases are in high risk groups and the evidence from the NT showed that it was safer for babies.

      You will be pleased to know there is currently an Australian trial of birth doses of pertussis vaccine, although a birth dose only was only effective for IgG response in 43% of cases and a dose at birth and 1 month was effective for IgG in 88% of cases. http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2010/03000/Acellular_Pertussis_Vaccine_at_Birth_and_One_Month.6.aspx
      There are also trials underway in the US of maternal vaccination, which is certainly easier in terms of trying to get babies in for appointments and may be more effective.

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        Sue

        Just to clarify what Deb said: Mumfi asked why Hep B vaccine is given to newborns – the reason is to prevent so-called “vertical transmission” (ie from mother to baby). That’s why Deb has said that the test can be negative in the early stages of the disease, so screening the mothers isn’t 100% reliable.

        Mumfi – it must be distressing for you to read conspiracy theories about autism while struggling to raise your child to the best of your ability. I suggest steering away from the conspiracy-websites and getting support form places like Austism Spectrum Australia – where people are interested in supporting children rather than spreading misinformation about vaccines.

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          mumfi

          I havent read any conspiracy websites. I have only looked at the product insert from the drug companies that make the hep b vaccine. The Dr I spoke to specialises in autism and developmental delay. I only form my opinions based on what I have researched from published scientific papers and from what the drug companies declare in their product description.

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            Grendel

            Mumfi,

            I also am the parent of a child with Autism and when we recieved the diagnosis I spent extensive time reading all I could about the condition and theories of cause.

            Naturally mercury got many mentions online, but the neurological differences that underlie autism also have a clear genetic relationship – as you acknowledge. However, if there is an environmental trigger (and this is possible) then it will be most likely one that occurs in-utero, not after birth since the neurological development in which the differences become apparent have already occurred by the time of birth.

            You claim to be a scientist but you make unsubstantiated, and in fact demonstrably erroneous statements such as “Even the smallest amount of mercury can have a detrimental outcome”.

            Humans are exposed to a wide range of toxins in the environment around us. Some of these occur naturally and others as a result of human industrial activity. To much of many, or a wicked combination can indeed have a negative effect but to claim that “any amount can have a detrimental effect” is just wrong. You have mercury in you right now, as does your child. Mercury that you inhaled, ingested or absorbed, but your body evolved in an environment where toxins were always present and generally does a pretty good job of metabolising or excreting these.

            It is only when there is too much that you encounter detrimental effects – obviously for a child the dose is much smaller, and the type of mercury encountered is also important – ie ethyl versus methyl mercury.

            Autism is not mercury poisoning, nor is vaccination the trigger for autism. I wish it were – I would then have an answer and a pathway to reducing the impact of my son’s neurological differences.

            Reading and researching are not the same thing – I think you know this but have been swayed by less-than-objective reports. Step back from being a parent and become an objective researcher – evaluate honestly and think critically.

            It wont change your child’s autism but it will assist you to better evaluate therapies that might assist. Many parents have spent a lot of money on biomedical treatments that at best do nothing and at worst cause significant harm.

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              Sue

              Grendel – thank you for such an eloquent and rational post!

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              mumfi

              Grendel,
              I won’t take offence to your statement of me claiming to be scientist, it is not worth justifying my qualifications and experience.

              I am surprised that you say you are a parent of a child with autism and yet you make NO reference to the gut brain link and autism. There have been several papers published and books written by Dr’s that prove that even the smallest amount of toxins can behave differently in the bodies of children with autism compared to the normal population. Their bodies are not efficient at removing heavy metals from the body- that is why some embark on chelation therapy. This is why some Dr’s recommend hair analysis and urine/blood tests for mercury, copper, lead etc. My child had to be tested recently for all of these.

              So I am surprised you have not mentioned the link in children with autism with altered methylation pathways etc.

              The sarcastic comments on this website like “better not eat seafood” are dissapointing. It’s all very well for everyone to get smart and say comments like that. You try doing 30 hrs aba therapy a week(look that one up on google). You try making your child have a gluten free casein free diet, endless occupational therapy, speech therapy, physiotherapy appointments. MRI scans, EEG tests, blood tests, special needs playgroups, i can go on and on. We won’t mention the sleep issues, nappies when they should be ready for preschool, sensory issues….

              For the people that think that it is certain there is no link between autism and vaccines, well think again, Nothing is 100% certain. I don’t know what else in addition caused our child’s autism. Maybe it was a cold I got when I was pregnant, maybe the phenol reagent I was exposed to when pregnant, maybe the years and years of exposure to polyacrylamide/agarose gels to run pcr products on (oh that is what some scientists do by the way). Maybe it was the temed, the ethidium bromide, the guanidine reagents I was using while pregnant???

              I will never know, but I NEVER ever dismiss anyone’s theory because one day you may all be surprised what the answer might be. Don’t be too sure that it isn’t vaccines, we still don’t have all the answers.

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        mumfi

        By the way, my child was given the engerix b vaccine (as is in the blue book we were given). We live in the ACT, so it is not just the NT it is used….

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          Deb

          You’re right. I can only find an old copy of the ACT schedule but it lists both H-B-Vax II and Engerix B. How strange, I wonder why the two territories have continued using it.

          Possibly because the level of mercury in it is comparable to the level of mercury already present in a newborn baby’s blood – http://www.scielo.br/pdf/csp/v23s4/14.pdf

          Obviously this will vary around the world because it depends on the level in the mother’s blood which comes from environmental exposure. But it is a demonstration that our bodies pick up all sorts of things we don’t even realise are around us, and are quite capable of dealing with such tiny amounts.

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          rukia

          mumfi, you might be offended by someone pointing out that you claim to be a scientist but your statement doesn’t seem like that of a scientist but I have to agree. I am a scientist and my thoughts as I was reading your comments were that you mustn’t be a very good one. You probably are a very good one in your job but right now you’re exhausted and probably over whelmed by the dodgy information out there. There is no link between vaccines and autism. At all. That theory has well and truly been flogged by researchers all over the world and it is dead. As far as I’m concerned, the culmination of that theory came when Andrew Wakefield had his paper retracted and lost his medical licence.

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          Grendel

          mumfi, My dig was not at your qualifications – Which I am certain are valid, but at your approach, which is remarkably unscientific.

          You are quite correct is stating that there may be an environmental as well as genetic factor – this is widely acknowledged, but your own exposure to reagents does not explain the autism in shildren who’s mothers had no exposure to the same chemicals.

          I also sympathise with the endless round of therapy sessions.

          I was surprised to hear you mention chelation however. and the gut-brain link, based on wakefield’s paper, which was scientific fraud.

          There have been several studies examining the prevalence of gastro-intestinal abnormality within cohorts of children with autism using control groups of neurotypical children. there is no statistically significant difference between the two.

          As for chelation – blood tests using artificial baselines like the ones used by DAN doctors in the US make a mockery of medicine and science.

          Chelation is dangerous and unnecessary and represents a form of experimentation on a child.

          When your child was tested – did you get to choose which lab did the test or was one designated. What were the results and how do they compare with other children who do not have autism?

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      Faybian

      We never used to give hepB from a shared vial. We gave it from a single dose only vial that did not need reconstituting. That was in may 2000, when it was first released. At first we gave engerix, but then went to HB vax.
      Better not have any seafood either, because of the mercury.

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    Bec

    Geez, the more I read these comments, I realise how the world is full of strange, selfish people who have no regard for the health and wellbeing of other people around them……I have to stop reading this page!!!!

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    Becca

    The article was great. Thanks. But it didn’t change my mind about vaccination. Just one hesitation is strong enough for me.

    I wasn’t vaccinated, largely due to the fact that, as you noted in the article, vaccines can give you the disease that is being vaccinated for. Though the likelihood is small, it’s happened. Human error and the fallibility of medical science will always exist. The risk may be small, but the consequences are large, if the the error is realised. And in that instance, the risk is lower were a child not to be vaccinated. That part is not opinion. The ‘mistakes were made’ explanation, I think, means little to the children who were given Polio through accident, and poor chemistry.

    That reason, in and of itself, is quite a legitimate one to inform not vaccinating, even when stood next to the weight of evidence ‘for’ vaccination. Medical science is beyond great, from most perspectives. But it’s certainly not infallible. You may trust the application of medicine 100%, and though I would not agree with your reasoning if you do, I’d try not to berate you if you did. :)

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      Kris2040

      Where does Dr Dunlop say that vaccines give you the disease you’re getting vaccinated for? Thanks in advance.

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      Sue

      Becca, I don’t think you will come across a clinician who says 100% about anything. Nobody has ever claimed that any orthodox medical treatment was 100% effective or 100% safe – humans don’t work that way.

      On the other hand, I’m astounded by your logic twist. You would rather not be protected from an infection because some vaccines have a TINY risk of giving you the infection. Against the real risk of just getting the infection anyway. Have I missed something in your reasoning?

      You may know that polio has essentially disappeared from wealthy western societies, because a huge proportion of the population is vaccinated against it. WHere are all those cases of polio that people got from the vaccine?

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      Jane DJ

      Really, you are basing this on the fact that 60 years ago there was once a mistake in the polio vaccine manufacturing process. 60 years ago? Do you base all your medical decisions on events that happened 60 years ago?

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      Deb

      Have a look around you at the measles outbreaks in NZ, the US and Europe. So many unvaccinated people ill, and none of them caught it from the vaccine.

      The only people who talk about 100% are anti-vaxxers who claim that’s what is needed before they will vaccinate, which is what you are essentially doing here.

      I often wonder how those people get on with not driving, walking, using bathrooms and kitchens or even drinking water, because none of those things are 100% guaranteed either. I would say it must be an interesting life, except I think it’s probably rather boring never doing anything.

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      kathym

      In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected.

      The good news is Becca, we don’t live in America, it’s no longer the 50′s and you are welcome to catch up with the rest of vaccinated Australia, knowing that your fears are overstated and unfounded:

      From this link:

      http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Polio_immunisation?open

      The polio vaccine
      Before November 2005, the oral (given by mouth) polio vaccine was routinely provided in Australia. This vaccine contains small amounts of weakened live poliovirus. In rare cases (about one in every 2.5 million doses), it can cause paralysis (vaccine-associated paralytic poliomyelitis, or VAPP).

      In November 2005, an inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) replaced the oral vaccine (OPV) in Australia. This vaccine is given by injection, rather than by mouth, and does not cause vaccine-associated paralysis.

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      Ken Wood

      Becca, your comment was great. Thanks. But it didn’t change my mind about going outside. I don’t think you should go outside at all: a meteorite might fall on your head. Just one hesitation should be strong enough for you.

      I don’t go outside, largely due to the fact that, as I noted above, a meteorite could fall on my head. Though the likelihood is statistically very very small, it’s happened. Human error and the fallibility of statistics will always exist. The risk may be small, but the consequences are large, if the error is realised. And in that instance, the risk is lower were I not to go outside. That part is not opinion. The ‘mistakes were made’ explanation, I think, means little to the people who had meteorites fall on their head through accident, and poor statistics.

      That reason, in and of itself, is quite a legitimate one to inform not going outside, even when stood next to the weight of evidence ‘for’ going outside. The field of statistics is beyond great, from most perspectives. But it’s certainly not infallible. You may trust the application of statistics 100%, and though I would not agree with your reasoning if you do, I’d try not to berate you if you did.

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        Lisa B

        Oh no Ken! You didn’t check – I believe that the statistics suggest odds are equally likely that it could fall on your house. Please consider moving to a cave dwelling, post haste!

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      Andy

      I know what you mean. I read an article last year about people who’ve died after they got tangled in the strings of their parachutes. I found it astonishing that they died as a result of taking what many would consider an obvious precaution. They died using something intended to keep them safe.

      Even when weighed up against all the evidence “for” parachutes, they’re manufacture is beyond great and that is enough reason to inform against their use.

      If I ever jump out of a plane, there’s no way I’ll use a parachute – those things can kill you. And that’s a fact.

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      sianmorton

      Becca, it is fine to have reservations. You just need to be sure that these reservations are valid. The vaccination schedule protects against a range of diseases, many of which were common childhood diseases of past generations. Although serious complications and death from many of these diseases was uncommon, it did occur, and it occurred far, far more commonly than any risks associated with vaccination. If everybody made decisions about vaccination using your rationale this country would return to the days where children suffered permanent brain damage, chronic respiratory illness, scarring, deafness, infertility and death from vaccine preventable diseases. No one is claiming that vaccines are 100% safe or 100% effective, and medicine is certainly not infallible, but the best available evidence strongly supports vaccination.

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        Andy

        Becca appears to be applying Mery Dorey’s favourite fallacy – the Nirvana Fallacy – in which reality is compared with unrealistic alternatives.

        So, if a vaccine isn’t absolutely 100% safe and absolutely 100% effective, then the vaccine is dangerous and doesn’t work – at all.

        I can’t imagine this “just one hesitation” concern is widely applied in other areas of day to day life because, as others have suggested, life would be impossible. Life, from conception to senility and beyond, carries risks. Everything is risky.

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      Grendel

      Becca – you need to return to your own arguement of risk. Compare the risks of vaccinating to the risks of the disease. Measles for example has a risk of ear infections, pneumonia, fits or convulsions, croup, inflammation of the brain (encephalitis). In its most severe form a late complication can occur and result in “subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE)”, which causes progressive brain damage and nearly always results in death.

      2 in 1000 children who acquire measles will get encephalitis. Compared with 1 in 1,000,000 who receive the vaccine. These are horribly unequal risks that weigh heavily in favour of vaccination. As a parent I have learned to be very careful not to fall into the trap of being afraid to take an action that carries a small risk as opposed to doing nothing and feeling as if I am taking no risk at all when in fact doing nothing has the greater risk.

      A very good aid to decision making and understanding risk can be found here: http://www.ncirs.edu.au/immunisation/education/mmr-decision/measles.php

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        Sue

        Well put, Grendel. In old Catholic doctrine, there was a dichotomy described as “sins of omission” vs “sins of commission”. In other words, you could be held responsible for the results of NOT acting, as well as for acting.

        We seem to have forgotten this balance in more recent times. Just doing nothing does not absolve you of responsiblity for the result.

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    kathym

    MC writes “With all due respect, how about all those in previous generations who survived without vaccines? That is called survival of the fittest, right? That’s what nature is supposed to do?”

    If this wasn’t such a serious matter, I would allow myself a little chuckle at the irony of your statement and decision. But your interpretation of Darwin’s theory is not correct. And your decision not to vaccinate, when you really can, affects the entire population, not just your little microcosm.

    Survival of the fittest is also about evolution. Darwin meant it as a metaphor for “better adapted for immediate, local environment”, not your inference that it means “in superior physical shape”.

    “Fittest” does not refer to whether an individual is “physically fitter” – bigger, faster or stronger – or “better”. It refers to a difference in reproductive rate from one generation to the next.

    Interpreting “survival of the fittest” to mean “only the fittest organisms will prevail” is not consistent with the actual theory of evolution. Any individual organism which succeeds in reproducing itself is “fit” and will contribute to survival of its species, not just the “physically fittest” ones, though some of the population will be better adapted to the circumstances than others.

    Okay then anti-vaxxers. Who is better adapted to the local immediate environment when an infectious disease outbreak occurs?

    My first thought is to say game on, let’s allow that to happen, allow you to see first hand how your egotistical, superiority complex views play out in a real-life situation. But then I think of the cancer patients, the newborn babes, the elderly and each and every human being is someone else’s loved one. These are whom you are also endangering.

    Google research does not equal insight, prevention or reality. Vaccination science does. And you are right about one thing, nature will prevail every time.

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      Kris2040

      Would an anti person who perished from a vaccine preventable disease be eligible for a Darwin award? I think yes.

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        kathym

        I would say definitely yes Kris!

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          Snorris

          Only if they didn’t reproduce first!

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        Sue

        I would say no, but their parents might be.

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      MrPopularSentiment

      Not to mention that while nature may not care if my son “isn’t fit enough,” I sure as hell do. Humans evolved awesome brains so that we wouldn’t have to subject to the unfeeling march of nature. Why on earth would we want to deny that part of our heritage in favour of brute animalism?

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      Deb

      And let’s not forget that it wouldn’t be the anti-vaxxers who suffered in this scenario – it would be their innocent children who have never had a choice. Ironically, almost all anti-vaxxers are vaccinated because their parents had them done as children, so they are safe from the risks they are forcing on their children.

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    Sally

    Why must I vaccinate my cats and provide proof of said vaccination before a boarding kennel will take them in. Yet, non-vaccinated children are allowed into schools and day cares??? Where is the fairness?? Do we put more care into our pets health?

    Thank you Mamamia for such a great article. I definitely will be sharing this.

    I’m tired of all the bogus websites and dodgy scientists and new age health ‘gurus’ spouting crap about immunisations and how bad they are. Anyone only has to look at some South African countries and then look at Australia to see how good they are (vaccinations.)

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      Kris2040

      There actually are nutters who don’t vaccinate their pets and/or farm animals.

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        Guy

        My cat got vaccinated and the next year was run over by a car – This is the quality of the logic and evidence that the anti-vaccination people seem to be using, just thought I’d give it a go, how can thisw not just feel plain wrong to them?

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      Em

      +1 – well said, Sally!

      I’m worried that when Mr 18months is ready for school, there’ll be the child of some nutty anti-vaxxers in his class, who will get sick, get the other children of anti-vax parents sick, and then my little Mr will get horribly sick.

      I’m ALMOST tempted to home school, because I’m not comfortable with the idea of crazy people putting my childs health at risk.

      They need to look at making vaccination compulsary for your child to attend school, methinks.

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    Anonymous

    Just want to say that my child has had all his vaccinations even though everytime one was due it there was fear of what reaction he would have, would he get autism etc and the thought of just not getting it done was on my mind.
    Looking back to when i was a child my parents rushed to have us kids vaccinated as they had lived through the times of polio and measles and these vaccines were like a miracle to them as both had lost siblings to dieases which are preventable today.

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    kass hall

    to those who maintain their “rights”:

    what is your equal responsibility?

    How does you exercising your “right” impact on those around you and your child? I mean really impact – those you know and those you randomly come into contact with.

    Now, think about your decision again.

    And think about how my “right” to live in a SAFE environment (as a cancer patient) goes up side by side with your “right” to not vaccinate. Whose right overrides whose if they cannot cohabitate?

    Now, think about your decision again.

    And if you STILL dont vaccinate, you are a selfish a-hole.

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      Andy

      This reminds me of the days, not so long ago, when people who “enjoyed a smoke with their meal” argued their right to smoke in restaurants. As long as they were happy, no one else mattered.

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      RichardJ

      Your analogue is dead on.

      How about my right to decide whether I wash my hands after going to the toilet. Sure it’s obvious that we are all meant to do it, but I’ve worked with people that didn’t, thus putting my life at risk. Deciding not to vaccinate it exactly the same.

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      Kris2040

      Kass, it’s really frightening how many people find the “With rights come responsibilities” concept foreign. Seriously, every time I’ve brought it up (usually in regard to immunisation, but it has happened with other stuff as well), someone has said “Oh, that’s a really good point – I’ve never heard that or thought of things that way”. WTF??? HOW is this a foreign concept to people?

      Someone mentioned they are usually touchy feely hippies – yeah, until you question their lack of logic or suggest (rightly) that they are being selfish and riding on everyone else’s herd immunity. Then watch them go. You’re right, complete a-holes.

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    Tarzan

    I think that the vaccination “debate” is the ultimate first world problem. Imagine you are a mother in a third world country with no access to vaccinations for your babies, who have a good chance of dying from a communicable disease that could be prevented with a vaccine. You would be horrified to think that we are even having this discussion.
    We have vaccines that work. We have a plethora of scientific information that confirms they are safe. We have a responsibility to our children, the children of others and the vulnerable members of our society to protect them where we can.
    Show some respect to those who have dedicated their lives to researching and providing us with lifesaving vaccines and show some respect to the families that have lost children to vaccine preventable illnesses. Vaccinate yourselves and your children.

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    Mel Coen

    With all due respect, how about all those in previous generations who survived without vaccines? That is called survival of the fittest, right? That’s what nature is supposed to do? When I have my kids, I won’t vaccinate them and I KNOW they’ll be stronger because of it! But that’s my choice and i respect all of you guys choices.

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      rossumch

      I’m astonished that any mother would play Russian roulette with her own children… But a decision that you think you make for just your own children might cause someone else’s child to die.. The most vulnerable are the small babies that are not vaccinated yet and get infected by your unvaccinated children, who are carriers of the disease.

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      kass hall

      survival of the fittest hey?

      I guess me having cancer four times is because I was vaccinated, huh? Or maybe I just don’t deserve to live under your theory.

      Uhuh.

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      Deb

      And you’ll have so much fun out there around the fire wearing the skins you killed, processed and cured yourselves!

      Firstly, nature does not mean good – tetanus, diptheria and cyclones are all natural.

      Secondly – to claim to do things naturally on a computer over the internet is just a little ridiculous. How do you decide which things nature got right and which it got wrong? You have obviously decided many, many technological advances are good, such as electricity and running water. So why not others?

      Thirdly – your argument is fallacious. Just because some people survived does not mean many didn’t die. Consider something like a clam that produces literally thousands of young so that a handful may survive. And yet they are still with us and doing well.
      Of course we don’t know much about the children who died – they didn’t leave descendants to mourn them. We all know the success stories because they went on to become our great-grandparents and grandparents. Visit an old cemetery and look at the ages and causes of death on the headstones, especially the ones who have 4 or 5 kids from the same family. Then think how strong their immune systems must have been from not having vaccines and having those good natural diseases.

      And finally as an evolutionary biologist ‘survival of the fittest’ is such a badly used phrase. It’s about who has the most grandkids and about having an advantage in the current environment you live in, not about some idealised past natural environment. In our western computer using, hospital having society vaccines make basically no difference in evolutionary terms. They only make a difference to the poor kids who are sick or the devastated families left behind.

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      Mia

      Mel,
      Your appalling level of ignorance is outweighed only by your shocking arrogance. Just.
      Go watch this: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/mamamia-on-sky-news-episode-11-vaccination-debates-real-victims/
      and at the 12:50 minute mark, you will meet a family who lost their baby because of people who chose not to vaccinate.

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      rainbow

      “mel” is well known to MM as someone who writes absurd and contentious comments in random posts. i personally would not give her any more of your time.

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        Andy

        Glad I read this comment as my gut feeling was “Poe’s Law in action!” but was prepared to respond anyway.

        In short though (just in case), if Mel thinks that children are somehow made stronger by dying, she has seriously misunderstood the meaning of “survival of the fittest”.

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        Lisa

        Unfortunately there are some incredibly sad, pathetic people in this world – the ying and yang… Some get a kick out of getting people all rilled up, incredibly sad, sad, sad people what a sad pathetic existence Mel, good luck in life!!! …
        For my input this is how uneducated and pathetic comments like this are… survival of the fittest was declared by Charles Darwin and he also believed in evolution so by that if something evolved and that meant inventions too we may use them ie vaccinations… if the Northern Indigneous of Australia traded a new remedy for something to those on the Torres Straight and it worked they would continue to use it – they were not as one minded as some of us Mel, to stop the evolution of the human race beacuse its not what they used yesterday!!!

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          Andy

          It’s like I said to someone running a similar “we didn’t do it and we survived” argument elsewhere in the comments section…

          Just because some people get hit by a bus and survive, that does not mean that getting hit by a bus is advisable.

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      Di Cherrie

      omg your ignorance and arrogance is appalling, this is my baby after she got whooping cough from my 13 year old (immunised) from an unimmunised child at school, 1 of only 2 children unimmunised in a school of one thousand. I was told he contracted whooping cough because his vaccine had weaned. These luckily were the only two children who contracted whooping cough, unfortunately there was a newborn in my home who could not escape this preventable disease. My baby at 6 weeks of age, went blue, then grey as she stopped breathing from coughing so badly, this happened daily many times every hour, she fought for her life and was one of the lucky ones. As a parent there is nothing we could do to help her, we knew the cough was coming, we never knew when, or if she would make it through the next cough. Your decision to be so ignorant also impacts other peoples children.

      For anyone else, the first pic is my daughter too young to be immunised on CPAP, forcing air to make her breathe in the rescusitation room, the second pic is her in the ICU and the third pic is her now. This is not scare tactics in anyway or form, this is truth in the face, exactly what this preventable disease did. 1 in 200 babies die, 7 Australian babies are dead over the last two years, more are left with lung and/or brain damage. My daughter was extremely lucky, unfortunately she has been left with lung damage that is manageable.

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        Lisa66

        I’m so sorry this happened to your baby. I just don’t understand how those who are anti-vaccination can’t see the harm they are causing to others, like your poor little girl. I hope she doesn’t suffer too badly from the damage done to her lungs.

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          Di Cherrie

          Thanks Lisa, luckily it is asthma she will definately have, most likely manageable, but we really don’t know until she grows. She also got bronchiolitus, which is attributed to her having whooping cough at such a young age. She is doing very well now, just little, she does look cute walking as little as she is :o )

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      RichardJ

      Interesting comments Mel. Given you are happy for “nature” to take it’s course, would you also be happy to accept that your future offspring are not going to be the ones strong enough to survive Whooping Cough without a vaccination??? You assume they will be strong, but what’s your basis for that belief? Your own good health??

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      MrPopularSentiment

      And if your children are found lacking? Will you still be so smug the day you get to see your still child in a casket? It breaks my heart to see how a parent (or a potential one) could be so cavalier about her child’s life…

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      Funkhouse

      Does utilising up to date research and technologies to protect us from preventable illness not make us the fitter generation? That expression doesn’t simply refer to an individuals ability to shrug off smallpox.

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    Kate

    Every parent should know that the choice to vaccinate is their own, just like the right to choose how and where they give birth. Scare tactics do not work – pro vaccination, like this article or anti vaccination. The choice is yours Mummas!

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      Mia

      Kate – there are no scare tactics here. Just science.

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        Renee

        Mia there is plenty of science for anti vax if you choose to look. I find it amazing how you and your staff (pretty sure they all don’t have children either) are pretty aggressive against those who choose not too. Did you give your children hep b? If so why? Are your needle user!? Promiscuous? As people who question vaccination these are relevant questions? Sure vaccination has decreased some diseases but certainly increased others. Western medicine is new, there are other medicine applications (Eg TCM) that are ancient and effective, surely it’s not all based on bullshit? Science is not the be all, not everything is explainable or should it be. Everyone has the right to choose what is right for them and their family whether it be about vaccination, religion etc. What do you say to the parents whose children will never be the same because of a needle? Your only response seems to be – get your booster, get your children vaccinated, this is science. Blah. This is not an easy decision as a parent to make.

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          Shane

          Transmission of Hep B to infants from infected mothers during the delivery process is a recognised risk group. Hep B may be asymptomatic for months so the mother may be unaware of even having it.
          As to your other claims. Citations please, especially for “science for anti vax” and your claim that vaccination has increased the risk of certain diseases and that TCM is effective. Otherwise it just sounds like you’re making stuff up.

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            reneehartley

            Shane have you ever tried TCM? Homeopathy? Acupuncture? Absolutely not placebo’s! Do you think Placebo’s work on 6month olds?

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              HiEv

              Well, considering that it’s the *parents* that report the child’s subjective state in the (worthless) anecdotal evidence that supports your claim, then yes, placebos work on the parents even though it’s the baby getting those worthless treatments.

              There is a vast scientific literature that has examined those things using double-blind placebo controlled studies and objective measures of health, and the vast majority of those studies show that those “treatments” are no better than placebo.

              In other words, they’re all worthless.

              Think I’m wrong? Let’s see a peer reviewed scientific literature review of numerous papers that backs up your argument. I’ll bet you can’t find one.

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            rukia

            Something that was pointed out on another blog that I regularly read is that you don’t know if any other child (that will come into contact with your child) has been infected with Hep B. Children play, sometimes they get hurt, they fall, they scrape their knees and its entirely possibly that a child could come into contact with another child’s blood, etc. My brother fell over at school and ended up with stitches, needless to say there was a lot of blood that his friends could have touched and if he had been infected with Hep B, they could have been infected also. I know its not a simple as that especially when taking viral load following treatment into account but still they could have recently been infected themselves and not be on treatment. The point is you have no control over other people including other kids and the only way to protect your kids is a) wrap them in cotton wool and not let them have contact with anyone else or b) vaccinate.
            If anyone on here even so much as hints that parents should be told when a child that has a blood borne disease is enrolled at their school, then you truly are an a-hole. Even kids with head lice are not named or identified in any way.

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          Kris2040

          “Science is not the be all, not everything is explainable or should it be”. Would you mind passing this on to the “MY kid GOT AUTISM!!!! from VACCINES!!!!” anti-vax crowd then? Because they seem to have missed this memo.
          I completely understand wanting something or someone to blame for something like autism, but I can’t help thinking that if they put their energy into fundraising for autism research and early intervention work, rather than stupid signs to assuage their guilt and scaring people unnecessarily, they might be happier.

          Oh, and TCM? The only discrediting is coming from you, linking it to being unexplainable and considered bullshit. I use acupuncture and massage, and that has never been scoffed at by any “western” doctor.

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            Kris2040

            Oh, and I think any practitioner of TCM would probably be pretty pissed off to hear their science dismissed as unexplainable and something you just have to believe in for it to work.
            Similarly I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find a “western” doctor who doesn’t acknowledge the place in treatements that things like acupuncture and herbals have – how about opium for starters?

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              reneehartley

              I completely support TCM, Homeopathy etc but there are plenty of non believers out there. Plenty of people doing everything in their power to dismiss these modalities as nothing more than placebo’s. I was saying surely they are not based on bullshit and yes there is science (but still plenty of people who don’t believe the science) I was making a point about everyone here referring to the science behind vax, it doesn’t mean you have to believe in it and there are always two sides. I have had absolutely wonderful results with these modalities. I completely believe in the “First do no harm” but I can’t say the same for plenty of doctors out there, lets look at the antibiotic debacle, penicillin an amazing find, the overuse an absolute travesty. I am not anti vax, but I believe in choice’s. I really don’t think you will be hard pressed to find a western doctor who dismisses acupuncture etc, you obviously haven’t looked hard. I have chosen which vaccinations we deem as a family to be important. It’s like with climate change – there are scientists who are 100 % for it and others who are 100% against it. Just as with vaccinations there are plenty of health professionals who are for it and plenty who aren’t. Regarding Heb B, pretty sure the gestation period of a human is approx 10 months all up, plenty of time to be tested for Hep B. We don’t need our newborns babies first experience in life to be a jab of toxins. In fact I deem it absolutely irresponsible.

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              Shane

              TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) ain’t science. If it was it would just be called medicine. Acupuncture is no better than a placebo. Vaccines are science and they do work.

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              Kris2040

              Disagree, Shane. I think your dismissal of methods that do work for some things is as bad as the AV dismissal of Big Pharma.

              Just as I think Renee talking about “believing in a methodology working” discredits the actual good that comes from traditional methodologies. It isn’t something to believe in or not, it can be proved to be effective. Unlike sugar water to vaccinate.

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          Andy

          The science of meteorology is new. There are other theories of weather (eg Thor) that are ancient and plausible, surely it’s not all based on bullshit?

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      Deb

      The choice to vaccinate is a parent’s, but they are only acting on behalf of their children. One of the most disturbing threads in many internet discussions of both vaccination and other things (including birth since you bring it up) is this idea of ‘parents’ rights.’

      How do parents have rights? Surely they don’t have any rights at all, but only responsibilities on behalf of their children? Because vaccination, by and large, does not affect parents – the majority of non-vaccinating parents were actually vaccinated as children. It is about children, and a parent’s responsibility to work in their best interests.

      I understand that most anti-vax parents believe they are making the best choices for their children. And that is where the importance of articles like this one come in. Because if you are going to take on the responsibility of deciding that the entire medical, immunological, epidemiological and other scientific professions are wrong, you need to be really, really sure that you are basing your decision on facts and evidence, not myths.

      And contrary to your blithe assertion, fear does work. It works very, very well, which is why people with no evidence to back them up use it.

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      rossumch

      I sincerely wished that it was obligatory to vaccinate! I have worked in many developing countries with MSF and have seen the devastating effect of the diseases we are so blessed to have vaccines for. If you have ever seen a child die of tetanus you will talk differently.

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      Andy

      Would you let your kid play on a busy highway – assuming “scare tactics” like road toll figures don’t work on you?

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        rainbow

        or if not that why not a bit of drink-driving? those dastardly drink-driving ads that are pure scare tactics… again the choice is yours

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      Faybian

      Actually the choice of where to give birth is limited in very remote areas. A lot of women have to go to a regional centre at 38 weeks to await birth. There is little other option, unless you wish to free birth, which is foolish to say the least, particularly when you’re 200km from help if needed.

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      MrPopularSentiment

      As a parent, I see myself as the steward of my child’s body and mind until he is old enough to make choices for himself. As such, the choice is not “mine” in that I get to do whatever I feel like doing or what suites me, but rather it is my responsibility to make the best possible choices to ensure that my son reaches adulthood safely and happily. Vaccines are a non-issue. I either get them for my son or I fail in my duty as a parent. It’s as simple as that.

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      Funkhouse

      Yes mummas! The choice to protect your child or let them take their chances with disease!

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    Anonymous

    Not sure if this has already been posted, but thought it was relevant to this discussion. This article provides an interesting perspective to the vaccintaion debate.

    http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life/vaccinations-vexed-link-to-autism-20110914-1k8nm.html

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      Andy

      That article would be hilarious if it wasn’t so dumb and dangerous.

      If nothing else sets of alarm bells, his insistence that vaccines are “propelled straight into” the bloodstream “at full strength”, should do it. They aren’t injected into the bloodstream and at what strength would he suggest they should be administered, and why?

      The writer clearly knows almost nothing about vaccines yet volunteers advice to the experts about how they could be made “safer”. Things like…

      “We can change the ingredients (like we did when we removed mercury).”

      Simpe eh? Why not just use, err, sugar? Sugar’s probably safer than alumininium, so why not use that? Or why not Heinz Baby Foods? Kids eat them anyway so they’d be pretty safe in a vaccine. Why not use them instead of, err, formalikihidium and other nasty sounding things with long names?

      Most problems with parachutes occur when the strings tangle. Does this mean parachutes could be made safer by leaving off the strings? I suspect the author of that article might think so.

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    Ella89

    I don’t understand why people think they are more knowledgeable then the entire scientific community.

    I’m all for questioning authority and not just blindly following others but surely at some point you have to accept the obvious? That googling something doesn’t mean you are right when individuals have actually dedicated their lives to researching it…

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      Kate

      Yes Ella89 – individuals have dedicated their lives to research on behalf of drug companies that own. HeLth insurance companies… Of course they want you to vaccinate so that one rare illness is covered at the cost of ruining a healthy immune system and as a result the child gets repeated bouts of middle ear infection, tonsillitis, bronchitis, laryngitis – the child the. Gets dependent on antibiotics and other drugs supplies by said drug company.

      My non immunized children have only been I’ll once – my 9yr old son has only had a middle ear infection once, and my daughter age 8 has only ever been sick once with tonsillitis – they went to regular pre school and public primary schools, they regularly witness their peers dropping like flies with illness every autumn and winter.

      It’s okay not to vaccinate!

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        Kass Hall

        jeez, you sound like my aunty. She thinks my oncologist wants me to get cancer again so he doesn’t go “out of business”.

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        Mia

        No Kate, it’s NOT OK to vaccinate.
        Do you know what it is? Irresponsible.

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          Andy

          “No Kate, it’s NOT OK to vaccinate.”

          Oops… I think Mia meant it’s NOT OKAY to NOT vaccinate.

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        Deb

        So my completely vaccinated eldest daughter so far has 100% attendance at school this year and more than 95% last year.
        She’s never had an ear infection or illness more serious than a cold.
        My youngest hasn’t even been to the doctor since she got over the reflux she was born with.
        Does that mean I ‘win’?

        It’s not about anecdotes and stories. It’s about large groups that can be compared statistically. And the answer is clear – there is no difference in health between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, except for the little fact that unvaccinated children get vaccine preventable diseases, which they then spread to people too young or too sick to be vaccinated.

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          RichardJ

          So. I cut myself on a rusty nail on the weekend? Should I get a Tetanus shot or chuck my lot in with nature and see how I go?

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        Tarzan

        Riiight so my son got repeated ear infections and tonsilitis because I destroyed his immune system with vaccinations. Lucky I cured his “addiction” to antibiotics by having his tonsils removed. Funny though – my two daughters have never suffered from tonsilitis and ear infections despite being vaccinated, so using your methods of scientific analysis, on that basis the probability that what you’re saying is rubbish seems fairly high to me.

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        Jane DJ

        So by antivaxer rationale, drug companies should immediately stop making, selling and developing vaccines to focus solely on drugs to treat the consequences of the diseases which would then run rampant through society.

        Well, here is some modelling by a couple of economists to look at that very question. Guess what? They also determined that there is a lot more money in selling treatments than vaccinations.
        http://www.economics.harvard.edu/files/faculty/36_Revenue_Consequences.pdf

        Kind of nixes the “Big Pharma promoting vaccines so they can make more money” rhetoric from the anti-vaxxers, doncha think?!
        (thanks to SAVN for the link)

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          Andy

          We see this “unvaxed kid sare healthier” canard all the time but what does it really mean? What criteria are being used for comparison? Are we even using the same measures of “health”?

          No, we aren’t.

          Here’s something the AVN’s Meryl Dorey wrote on her FB page in March this year…

          “My cousin was diagnosed with lung cancer and died 3 weeks after going into hospital for her first treatment. She went in healthy and never came out.”

          Her cousin, with terminal lung cancer, was healthy.

          Makes you wonder what an unvaxed kid has to suffer before their parents decide they might be unwell.

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        rainbow

        so in scientific terms regarding likelihood of non-vaccinated children getting sick: n=2

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        Sue

        “one rare illness”

        Why can’t you people understand that the illnesses are “rare” because everyone else is vaccinating???????

        I’m finding this whole conversation so frustrating, but at the same time it’s fascinating working out where the mental blocks are. This forum should be studied by health departments so that they can analyse these mental blocks and work out some useful educational programmes.

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        Sarah in Adealide

        My completely vaccinated six year old who has been at kindergarten and then school for the last two years has had one day off school. And before that I can’t remember the last time he was sick. All three of mine have gone to childcare and again sickness is rare. All of theM experienced normal colds, etc in the first two years of their life but this is normal and is actually a great natural way for them to build immunity. You argument is totally flawed and really all you have thus far is lucky. I hope your luck holds out.

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        Anon

        What is with this conspiracy theory BS??? Can you please provide valid scientific proof to support your claims that vaccs are ” ruining a healthy immune system and as a result the child gets repeated bouts of middle ear infection, tonsillitis, bronchitis, laryngitis.” My guess is you cannot, as is there isn’t any. Your children have benefited from the fact that the majority of other children are vaccinated.
        Following this post and this comment has made one thing really apparent, parents who vaccinate their children are not egocentric – wake up anti-vaccers, here’s a news flash, it’s not all about you! YOu have a responsibility as a member of a society to not endanger the lives of those around you. Children who are not vaccinated should not be allowed to enter the school system. If you are so concerned about conspiracy theories, how can you trust teachers to not be poisoning your children’s minds?? Home school and keep your children away from the vacc’d kids!

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          Anonymous

          How are people that don’t vaccinate put ‘other’ babies at risk? If you cared so much just vaccinate your own child and move on. Lisa is right, this debate wouldn’t exist if the pro-vaxxers weren’t so bullheaded and snobby.

          Yes we know you are all very good ‘oh-praise-thee’ scientists, and that you think anti-vaxxers are trying to prove against your findings. If you take it personally, you shouldn’t be in this industry.

          Guess what, people ARE entitled to their own decisions, vaccinate your OWN baby and stop trying to force it down the throats of everyone else, because your not doing anyone any favours.

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            Jane DJ

            And you’re not doing anyone any favours by making multiple identical posts – typical anti-vax tactics.

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        Dan Buzzard

        Kate, a child only needs to catch whooping cough once.
        http://danamccaffery.com/openletter.html

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    Lisa

    Some of the comments are very mean. Pro or against.
    There should be a vaccine against being rude, judgemental, condescending putter downer.

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      Sue

      I feel judgemental towards non-vaccinators because they put other people’s babies at risk. As for ‘condescending’:(ie “displaying a patronizingly superior attitude”?) I feel superior to them because I’m doing the right thing by society and vaccinating, and they’re not. Sometimes when people are wrong it’s their business, and you don’t have the right to say anything. When their wrongness is endangering the lives of others though, you do have the right to say “you’re wrong”. If being told you are wrong feels like a ‘put-down’, too bad. Maybe drink drivers felt like they were being ‘put down’, during the “bloody idiot” campaign? As for being rude, well I believe it is best to avoid this, however I can understand people’s frustration with anti-vaccinators’ ignorant choices endangering everyone else’s children.

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        SAVN

        Antivaxers frequently complain that pointing out the factual inaccuracy of their claims, even when done politely, is “disrespectful”.

        They seem to be of the mindset they should be entitled to actively promote misinformation, outright lies and irrational beliefs that result in increased rates of infectious disease without being questioned or challenged at all. Sorry, that just isn’t going to happen.

        Many of these people simply don’t have the mental capacity to participate in even a simple discussion about vaccines. They lack even a rudimentary understanding of concepts from high school chemistry like dilution and dosage, simple statistics and the ability to reason logically.

        For example, Meryl Dorey’s pronouncements on vaccination are frequently riddled with such laughably obvious mistakes that readers are reminded of Sir Belvedere’s muddled reasoning in Monty Python and the Holy Grail:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

        Initially I think antivaxers like Meryl deserve compassion: our school system has failed them, it hasn’t equipped them with the basic general knowledge and thinking skills required to make sense of our modern world and the technology that surrounds us. Their wild ranting about vaccination can be seen as a cries for help from people living in fear of a world they don’t understand.

        The right approach, at least at first, is to offer education so they can “catch up” to the rest of us. Fear evaporates once they have understanding.

        However there is a small, vocal minority – like Meryl Dorey – who remain determinedly, willfully ignorant despite all attempts to eduate & help them.

        Meryl has had her factual errors and illogical reasoning corrected on many occasions. Rather than admit her mistake and adjust, her response is to delete and/or ignore the correction and continue promoting the same unchanged, incorrect claims. Meryl simply doesn’t want to learn because being ignorant and wrong suits her better.

        In Meryl’s case we can now see that this is likely a pattern of hers that runs across other beliefs and areas of her life as well. In running her organisation she’s run afoul of the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission and laws applying to charity fundraising. In both cases she’s opted not to learn from her mistakes and correct her behaviour, but rather to retreat even further into denial – hence her snowballing legal problems on several fronts.

        Diehard antivaxers like Meryl who persist deliberately in a state of ignorance deserve nothing better than ridicule and to face the full force of the law applied to them when they break it. There’s simply no other way to deal with people like that.

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          Lisa

          (different Lisa from above – common name!) Fantastic response SAVN – I have had said before here that I have always had that niggling doubt if I did the right thing to vaccinate beacuse of the fear and guilt campaign that its so distustingly promoted from the ‘Anti-Vaccination Network’ – even though I had the intelligence and sense to research it ALL as best as I could … there were always holes in the anti side of the debate!!!… This article and the mamamia news clip and reading the SAVN facebook page oh and the AVN page for a laugh, have put my mind to rest – I understand that the anti vaccers may take a while – I use to understand where they were coming from but now I just understand that it may take a while to get them to see some sense – so be gentle with them…..

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          Andy

          As an example of those high school failings, I’m reminded of the time someone commented to Meryl Dorey…

          “… AN AVERAGE 88 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE MUMPS HAVE BEEN FULLY VACCINATED…

          (the commenter used caps, of course, because they’re more compelling!!!)

          Dorey responded…

          “You make an excellent point! With any other form of treatment, failure of the therapy in 88% of those who received it would lead to its withdrawal…”

          Now, if you can’t see the massive error in Dorey’s response, then you are in no position to assess the science behind, well, anything. That’s not necessarily your fault and in general it won’t matter. But if you let mathematically challenged people scare you into making bad decisions because you don’t have a solid grasp of statistics or common logical fallacies, then it does matter. In such cases, you have little choice but to trust the experts or play Russian Roulette.

          For the record, Dorey got it wrong by concluding that if 88% of sufferers were vaccinated, then 88% of vaccinated were sufferers.

          This is syllogism (a logical fallacy) – like saying “if all dogs are animals, then all animals are dogs”. It’s also a major misunderstanding of scientific data.

          It’s difficult to remain polite when someone so apparently ignorant of simple concepts hold themselves up as an expert in reanalysing scientific data. If she can’t get the simple stuff right, what hope does she have with the complicated stuff? The problem is, a lot of people with no better grasp of maths, chemistry or biology, take her word for it that she knows what she’s talking about.

          (oh, and for the record, the 88% figure was, shall we say, not entirely accurate in the first place).

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            SAVN

            Meryl is a classic for turning out clangers like that. That’s why following her blog and Facebook page is so entertaining for anyone rational.

            This is the woman who also said:

            “The point here is that the quick test is being used as definitive proof that someone has whooping cough when the false positives are as high as 100%.”

            and

            “1 anecdote is worth more than 1,000 epidemiological studies”.

            More laughs here: http://meryldorey.org

            Since she is considered a leading light of the antivax fringe in Australia, whenever I think of her followers the phrase “room temperature IQ” comes to mind and they’ve so far done nothing to dispel that impression.

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            Lisa

            I got it before you explained!!! Oh dear me this is rediculous!!!

            I guess further to my comment is there are some we cannot help but there are those who like me may have or still are swaying or doubting their decision because they have been caught up in the fear campaign from the AVN, we need to be gentle with them…. I think the really scary thing is that most of the comments on the AVN page refer to a bible quote or if you click on their page they support some born again type of redemption type religion – thats scary!!!!

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              Sue

              MD also made another blooper in her supposed de-bunking of this discussion – her reporting of Hb concentrations out by a factor of 1000.

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              SAVN

              Meryl Dorey has publicly endorsed Scientology on numerous occasions. I guess wacky medical beliefs call for wacky religious beliefs too!

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        Anon

        How are people that don’t vaccinate put ‘other’ babies at risk? If you cared so much just vaccinate your own child and move on. Lisa is right, this debate wouldn’t exist if the pro-vaxxers weren’t so bullheaded and snobby.

        Yes we know you are all very good ‘oh-praise-thee’ scientists, and that you think anti-vaxxers are trying to prove against your findings. If you take it personally, you shouldn’t be in this industry.

        Guess what, people ARE entitled to their own decisions, vaccinate your OWN baby and stop trying to force it down the throats of everyone else, because your not doing anyone any favours.

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          Jenna

          “You have the same right to choose to vaccinate your child as you do to choose to drive drunk- your actions have the power to affect everyone around you”- paraphrased from Seth Mnookin

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    phoodietweets

    BRILLIANT article Dr Rachel.

    THANK-YOU.

    Also, my deepest DEEPEST sympathies to those families who have lost babies. I cannot imagine. Thank goodness.

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    Amanda

    Rachael, you are brilliant. You have provided so much useful information in easy to understand language and the way you have followed up the questions/comments with such accurate information has been incredible. Thankyou for all your hard work.

    Mamamia team, this has been a wonderful topic to cover. So important and done in such a great way. I can’t sing your praises enough.

    There is an old saying (about religion, but I think it’s still applicable here): to those who believe no proof is necessary, to those who don’t no proof is possible. Unfortunately the non-believers seem unable to accept facts, even when evidence is so overwhelmingly in favour of vaccines. Even so, I applaud you all for your perseverance in getting the truth out there.

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    Ally

    When I was pregnant with my first child I was dithering over whether or not to vaccinate until my grandmother made a comment that swayed me “Anyone who could remember how bloody awful polio was would never hesitate”. I thought “good point” and have since proceeded to have all of my children vaccinated.

    Unfortunately, one of my children is immunosuppressed from an unrelated physical abnormality. She is still vaccinated but still ends up catching whatever godawful disease is doing the rounds at the time. This year it was whooping cough.

    Turns out she caught it from a kid at preschool who hadnt been vaccinated and was at school in the early days of the illness when it looked like a cold. His parents used the preschool as day care because day cares in our area won’t accept kids who dont have their vaccinations. So when he was a bit sick, they sent him to school so they could still go to work. While I respect the right of everyone to make the decisions regarding their own children, I really really really wish they wouldnt send them to school when they are even just a little bit sick.

    We do everything we can to keep our daughter as healthy as possible, yet because some parents make these decisions and then send their kids to preschool when they are ‘only a bit sick’ , my daughter still suffers. I wish they would be the ones to sit up with her every night to stop her from choking, to clean up the vomit after she has coughed herself sick and to cope with the aftermath when she has missed 4 weeks of school.

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      dkmum

      Oh gosh Ally, I feel for you. Situations like you describe makes me cringe. People can be so selfish.
      Best wishes to you and your girl!

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      Lisa J

      I wonder why you can’t try to sue them next time? Maybe actually paying with their wallet for their negligence will give them a bit more to think of. It’s one thing when they can make these ludicrous decisions and somehow escape the consequences with their child surviving intact. If they have to worry about being financially responsible for adverse outcomes they actually might think more seriously about it (and if that isn’t sad I don’t know what is).