Part One
I’m sitting in the Griffith University Library at Nathan. It’s the mid-90s and I’m researching an assignment for my Bachelor’s degree. One of my subjects this semester is Aboriginal Studies. I open the study guide and turn to the required reading. As I read, great silent tears start to flow down my cheeks, splashing onto the page below. I don’t sob. There are no histrionics. I don’t make a sound. My face just starts to resemble a waterfall in slow motion. It is the strangest, saddest feeling, and one I will never forget.
In the 1920s and ‘30s it was accepted as inevitable that Aborigines were a ‘dying race’. The only way future generations would know what Aborigines looked like – at least ‘full blood’ Aborigines – was from photographs, preserved skulls and models in museums. But, of course, the museum models needed to be ‘authentic’.
In 1924, the Australian Museum decided to produce an exhibit of Australian Aborigines from live models. It was decided to make three sculptures: a man, a woman and a boy. The sculptures were to be made as realistic as possible by taking plaster casts of the faces of the subjects. This was not the first, nor was it the last activity of its type. The practice went on until at least 1931.
At some point, someone decided that having the subjects close their eyes while the plaster was applied resulted in a less than perfect mould. So, at least in some cases, subjects were encouraged to keep their eyes open during the procedure.
I’ve had a plaster cast made of my face. Even knowing in advance what it involved, and doing it voluntarily it was a ghastly experience I wouldn’t want to repeat. I can only imagine what it was like for Aborigines with poor or no English, amongst people they didn’t know, and having no real idea what was being done to them or why!
I want to scream at the scientists, “Stop accepting the ‘inevitable’ and work to save them! Don’t accept their fate – fight for them!” But no words will come, only tears.
Part Two
I am sitting in the study room, upstairs at the Nambour public library. I’m researching for my [never completed] doctoral thesis on the history of property development at the Sunshine Coast. Once again, tears begin to flow and I watch silently as the page below becomes wet and bubbled with my outpouring of silent grief. This time I am reading about the massacre of Aborigines at Murdering Creek, near Noosa, in the 1860s.
Details are sketchy, but a contemporary account suggests the massacre was a pre-meditated act, cooked up between a local policeman and the manager of Yandina Station. The motive appears to have been the removal of Aborigines camped near the northern boundary of the station at Lake Weyba.
A party of eight men was despatched to Lake Weyba with orders to shoot the Aborigines camped there. When they got to the lake, one man was sent to stand alone on the bank. When the Aborigines saw him, they took to their canoes and paddled towards him – perhaps expecting a gift of flour or tobacco?
But, as soon as the canoes drew close to the water’s edge, the decoy ran back into the bush while his seven colleagues opened fire killing many and wounding more.
I’m aghast. I’m a Sunshine Coast local. My great great uncle was a pioneer of this area – he could well have been a member of that shooting party. I hope not, but I don’t know. Did no-one speak out? Did no-one try to say, ‘This is wrong!’?
I feel bereft. It happened so long ago but at this moment it seems like it is happening in front of me. I want to run to the bank and scream, “Turn back! Turn back!” But there is nothing I can do. They’re dead and there is nothing to do but cry.
Part Three
It is 2011, I am sitting in my bedroom chair with my computer on my lap. I’m listening to a live stream of a program on the National Indigenous Radio Service with increasing horror. A woman, Meryl Dorey, who has been proven by the Health Care Complaints Commission to supply false, misleading and biased information, has just spent an hour suggesting that Aboriginal parents should be very wary about vaccinating their children and should try homeopathic vaccines instead. The host, an indigenous man named Tiga Bayles, agrees with her whole-heartedly.
I know the information she is providing is false. I know that homeopathic vaccines don’t work. This is not my opinion. This is scientific fact. Dorey’s figures are bogus, taken out of context or misrepresented. Her propaganda is as misleading and potentially as deadly as the decoy beckoning to Aborigines from the bank of Lake Weyba 150 years ago.
She sounds credible. She sounds friendly. I want to shout, “Don’t listen to her! Don’t listen to her!”
I want to ring in, but I don’t. I’m not a doctor or a scientist. Surely some doctor will call in to refute her claims. I don’t want to take a precious time slot that might have gone to someone with more knowledge than me. I sit on my hands to stop myself picking up the phone.
But the end of the show is drawing near, and no doctor has called in – or been able to get through? – so I call the station. The phone rings out. I try again and the host answers. I plead to be given a moment on air to refute Mrs Dorey’s claims and point out she has been shown to be an unreliable and discredited source of information on vaccination. Tiga Bayles says, “You’re too late, the show’s over.”
I try to explain to him that he’s been deceived. My voice is surprisingly calm as I try desperately to reason with him, but my heart is beating out of my chest. I’m envisaging an outbreak of measles or whooping cough in an Aboriginal family or community. I’m seeing children breaking their ribs from coughing, babies with encephalitis or pneumonia – both complications from measles. I’m picturing innocent Aboriginal children and precious old people dying from preventable diseases. I have to convince him!
But my efforts are futile. Tiga Bayles knows far more than me about the kinds of betrayals that made me cry in libraries during my university studies. He certainly feels them more deeply than I ever could. Understandably, he has a deep mistrust of white, middle-class people like me – especially when we’re defending governments and their policies.
Tiga has more experience of white people than those Aborigines who crossed the lake at Murdering Creek. He knows we have a history of stretching out our hand to Aborigines only to harm them. We are the people who poisoned flour and handed out blankets infected with white man’s diseases. It’s not surprising he thinks vaccines are simply the modern day version of yesterday’s genocidal Trojan horses.
His motives are pure. He wants to protect his children, his grand-children and the children in indigenous families and communities. To Tiga, vaccines are like the decoy on Weyba Lake – they seem harmless, but he knows there are deadly dangers hiding just out of sight. He’s not going to be fooled by white men’s lies and deceptions.
“I suppose you’re one of those people who want to tell us we’re descended from monkeys,” says Tiga as our conversation draws to an end. My heart breaks. I’m not going to convince him. I give in and hang up.
I might as well have tried to throw myself in front of that hail of bullets at Murdering Creek as try to convince Tiga Bayles the decoy standing on the bank is not the government but Mrs Dorey; that the danger lurking in the bushes is not vaccines, but a host of preventable diseases that can wound and kill just as surely as a bullet from a gun.
Now I’m shaking. I notice great round tears are rolling from my eyes and splashing on to my computer keyboard. I don’t sob. There are no histrionics. I don’t make a sound. My face just starts to resemble a waterfall in slow motion. It is the strangest, saddest feeling, and one I will never forget.
Chrys Stevenson is a freelance writer, blogger and a secular and skeptical activist. You can and should follow her blog Gladly, the Cross Eyed Bear.








Comments
123 Comments so far
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The good news is Woodford have changed the program and Ms Dorey will no longer be talking about autism. The bad news is she’ll now take part in a forum with an actual expert in the field of vaccination.
Why she would would be included in such a discussion is anyone’s guess. It’s a bit like asking your local pastry chef for an opinion on bridge construction with the implication that their information is just as useful as that of engineers.
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Yeah, but it’ll be a reasonably public pwning of her.
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But that’s great news surely? I would love to see her in a debate with someone who makes sense!!
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It’s better than giving her a solo spot to spout unchallenged nonsense – but it still makes no sense to elevate her to that status of an expert by standing her alongside one.
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Hi Chrys, thanks for your article.
I commented yesterday but I was too angry to say much! I have spent the last three years studying at uni and have just come away with a degree. I focused my learning on bettering my understanding of Indigenous Australians, and as a result I’m aware, perhaps more so than the average white Australian, just how dire Aboriginal health is at the moment. I spent many of my lectures fighting tears because I was unaware before of how bad things are. When I learnt that Dorey had been on Aboriginal community radio spouting her crap, I was literally shaking with rage. I actually cried in anger. She is feeding on vulnerable people’s fears of the government, feeding on the fact that for decades they have had no reason to trust authority figures, and she is undoing years of work by hardworking rural nurses, doctors and anthropologists who have dedicated their lives to trying to improve Aboriginal health. One of my lecturers is a well-respected anthropologist who has been fighting for years to help communities in NSW and I’d hate to think what she’ll feel when she hears about this. She has friends in communities who are still highly mistrustful, and here is this woman coming along and playing on those fears and filling people’s heads with misinformation, twisted facts and blatant lies. I’m devastated.
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As Dorey has been encouraging homeopathic vaccines, I have added some links about how homeopathy doesnt work.
From Respectful Insolence, a video entitled “Taking the Piss out of Homeopathy.” http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/taking_the_piss_out_of_homeopathy.php
From Science Based Medicine, an article entitled “Homeopathy” by Novella. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/?cat=8
From SBM, an explanation of homepathic vaccines, by Crislip http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/homeopathic-vaccines/
A hilarious satirical video about a “homepathic ER department.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
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It is hardly surprising that homeopathy could not possibly work – it is just not feasible. The “theory” that treating like-with-like, and that the more dilute a solution is, the more “potent” it is just ignores all we have come to know about physics, chemistry and the clinical sciences. The idea that the body can be cured by a “solution” so dilute that no detectable molecules of the original substance are still there just doesn’t fly. Not only doesn’t it work, it can’t work.
Nonsensical theories like homeopathy need to be separated from other so-called complementary practices like herbal medicine. We DO know that some herbs contain medicinal substances – that’s where many effective pharmaceuticals were derived. Then, as science and technology developed, it was possible to purify the active substance, remove impurities and standardise the dose and there you have – modern medicines. Homeopathy though? As Ms Dorey has said, “you decide”.
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As beautifully written as this was, I would have preferred to read a breakdown of the interview and what was incorrect and why (although from past experience, I should probably just assume the entire interview was incorrect…)
Perhaps I am only one of a few who would have preferred to read a less emotional piece, but I did get a bit confused reading this thinking at first the point of the article was about certain violent aspects of Australia’s history. But then I realised at the end that the point was maybe about an interview that Meryl Dorey had on a radio show that she has been on numerous times before, peddling many lies- nothing different there.
I don’t have the time right now to listen to any podcasts there may be (and I dislike podcasts anyways- it’s a personal quirk I admit), but I personally would have preferred a much clearer article. I felt the back history and the emotions were a bit unnecessary overall, as beautifully written as it is.
Out of interest, and clarification for myself, was the point of this article to discuss the interview? or was it to try and educate people on aspects of history that some people may not know about? or was it to discuss why it is that an Aboriginal person may distrust the medical community due to the history with the ‘white man’?
EDIT: I realise that the title should give me a clue about the overall point of the article, but since only the last part is about Meryl Dorey it doesn’t really make as much sense to me, especially since most of the last part was about how *you* felt in trying to correct her mis-information.
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I’m sick of hearing the anti-vaccination brigade say figures were falling before the introduction of the vaccines. Death rates were falling, we just got better at keeping sick people alive.
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Some people have asked, “What lies did Meryl Dorey tell?”. Well here are the obvious ones which I have cherry picked from the recent interview on 98.9fm to reiterate the AVN’s agenda, which is stridently anti-vax:
“We actually think that it’s wrong to be anti- or pro- vaccination except for yourself. But being anti-vaccine as an organisation would mean, as far as we’re concerned, telling people that they shouldn’t vaccinate and we never do that”
I’d class likening vaccination to rape as having an anti-vaccination stance. Would you? In addition, if she was as pro-choice as she said she was, she’d have spent at least some of her forty minute interview discussing the perceived benefits of vaccination. However she didn’t and never does.
http://www.mamamia.com.au/wp-content/comment-image/591702.png
“And the National Health and Medical Research Council, which is the government body that’s involved with this, says that you have to be able to make an informed choice. So all we’re doing is trying to support what the National Health and Medical Research Council says, and allow people to make an informed choice.”
Meryl has been unabashedly trying to help people make informed choices based on lies for years. The myths about vaccination she has been perpetuating have been debunked over and over.
“And he had a dreadful reaction and he’s 22 years old now and he still suffers from that first lot of vaccines”
This may be truth, or may not be. There is no real evidence to suggest her son’s health problems have been caused by vaccination. Even if it is the truth, serious adverse side effects from vaccines are rare. This has been proven by huge bodies of research and testing over many years, irrespective of Meryl’s views about under reporting of side effects.
“we have an adverse reactions register at the AVN where we’ve collected over 1200 reports of serious reactions and deaths following vaccination. And I can tell you that there are dozens of children who had exactly the same reaction as my son. What happens in Australia is that only about one percent of reactions that happen after drugs, or vaccines, ever get reported”
None of the reactions collected by the AVN are investigated by medical professionals and determined to have a causal relationship to vaccinations. Some of the stories include “my baby got reflux two days later”. Does this honestly sound like substantiated evidence to anyone here?
“when doctors tell us, oh the vaccines are perfectly safe, what they’re doing is they’re basing that statement on information that’s at least 99% incorrect. You wouldn’t make a decision on information that was so incorrect if you knew how wrong it was. So, I think that parents need to be aware that doctors are not reporting reactions.”
Doctors are basing their information on research, which is undertaken by generations of medical science professionals. Meryl has based her opinion that the vast bodies of research is wrong on her 1200 unsubstantiated reports of reaction, out of MILLIONS of children who get vaccinated every year. Who would you believe?
“. The Australian Bureau of Statistics say that 40 percent, almost half of all Australian children under the age of 12, are currently being treated for at least one chronic condition, so they’re on medication all the time for a chronic condition. That was not the case 20 or 30 years ago, this is something fairly recent.”
There is much research suggesting that higher incidences of illness such as asthma are found in lower socio-economic areas where there is less quality access to health services. Furthermore, many studies show a range of lifestyle and environmental factors, as well genetics have a strong influence on the incidence of such illnesses. We are also much better at diagnosing these conditions than thirty years ago. There are no studies which have found a relationship between any childhood illnesses and vaccines. With the exception of a few such as Andrew Wakefield’s research which has been entirely discredited.
“the government’s own information show that at least 90% of the decline from deaths from these diseases occurred before the vaccinations were introduced. So vaccination had nothing to do with the decline in death from these diseases.”
This is not true. I’m fairly certain Meryl has pulled her statistic of 90% from her rear end. Some diseases showed some decline in incidence shortly before vaccinations began because people had either died from those diseases already or gained immunity due to being exposed to them. After vaccinations were introduced, the incidence of those diseases dropped at a very rapid rate.
“they were effective and they worked. For instance, Chinese Herbal Medicine has a history of 5000 years; aboriginal medications using the natural herbs and the plants in Australia, forty thousand years, done properly.”
There have been lots and lots of studies on alternative therapies and treatments. Most of them involve a control group being given a placebo and a second group given the alternative or homeopathic treatment without the recipients knowledge of which it is they have been given. Nearly every one of these studies concludes that those given the natural alternative did not show any significant improvements or changes in comparison to the control group. The reason we refer to this type of “medicine” as alternative is because it is not proven to be effective.
“Meryl:
Ok, he worked at Collarenebri for many years and he wrote this book based on his experiences. And he found that 50% of aboriginal babies were dying after vaccinations. Half of all aboriginal babies were dying. And do you know that when he published his book it was banned in Australia.
Tiga:
He was discredited by the medical association, the health department, everybody, yes.
Meryl:
That’s right. But when he left… when he was a doctor for 10 years in Collarenebri, they had no sudden infant deaths at all, no infant mortality amongst aboriginals. And then when he left, it went back up to 50 percent”
Dr Kalokerinos worked with Aboriginal Australians in Northern Australia in 1976. It is possible that he observed some ill effects from the flu vaccines that were given at the time. But it is not 1976 anymore. 35 years on, vaccines go through more strenuous testing than ever before. If Dr Kalokerinos was correct in his assertion that vaccines were premeditated murder and genocide, a whole lot more of us would be dying by now! Besides, if it was genocide, which group did Dr K think the Australian government was trying to kill? Last I checked we are all encouraged to get vaccinated. Are they trying to kill us all???? Surely people can see how this defies logic? What would be the point in killing us? We are one of the most under populated countries in the world? Surely there’d be a better way to kill us off than vaccines? Let’s get real folks, Dr K was as much fruit cake as Meryl Dorey. Except he was a physician, which is plain scary.
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Lucinda, if you haven’t already, you may want to read these:
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47704677/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-the-Truth-Part-1
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 2
http://www.scribd.com/doc/60227728/Meryl-DoreysTrouble-With-the-Truth-Part-2
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 3
http://www.scribd.com/doc/69196048/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-The-Truth-Part3-Lies-and-Fraud
209 lies, documented and proven. So far, Meryl Dorey has denied none.
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Thank you for what you have written Lucinda. This breakdown is very helpful. Correlation does not imply causation and this is what Meryl does actually I fear she just says whatever comes out of her mouth with no filter. Also the information that JohnBundock has shared this is also helpful.
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Before vaccination, introduced diseases devastated Aboriginal populations. Winifred Hilliard, the Deconess in charge of the Arts and Crafts Dept. of the Ernabella Mission, in her book “The People In Between” (1968), wrote “–the 1948 measles epidemic reached Ernabella–Every Aboriginal person on the station contracted the disease, and in addition, some developed pneumonia–There were at least twenty three deaths, and even today m-e-a-s-l-e-s spells fear.” and
“A second outbreak of measles in 1957 infected all those who had still been out on the Reserve in1948, as well as all young children. This second measles epidemic started another year of sorrow for many of the Pitjantjatjara people who had been under the influence of the Mission. About twenty-seven infants died at this time.” : Publisher Rigby, 1976, pp139-141.
Here’s 2 links to press reports on the 1948 and 1953 measles epidemics among the Aboriginal population:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/43770793
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/42801707
Those Australians who don’t vaccinate themselves and their children are taking a dreadful risk.
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Could someone please give us a run down on the specifics of this interview with Meryl, as it seems to be causing some confusion and I cannot seem to play the podcast. We need to break down the interview and address it so that the lies are clear to the readers.
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Transcribed here, http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4294 , for all eternity. Enjoy.
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cheers : )
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“lucindainthesky”, Yes, we thought it was very strange that you made such comments without even knowing what you were talking about.
Were you led into this like a sheep?
Olga Abraham.
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Excuse me? I can weigh up evidence without buying into people like Meryl’s unsubstantiated opinions. I am reading through the transcript now and will address it shortly – but what she has said is stuff she has already said before. It’s rubbish.
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This is just for Rick Morton hope you do not mind me adding this in here.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/anti-vaccine-activist-needles-opponents/story-e6freon6-1226222416563
Only posting this in here due to the fact you stated as far as you were aware. It is raising the same issues that is presented in this by the same person but is being interviewed not the one writing. I realise it is not about Australian Aboriginal vaccination issues that it is about Meryl Dorey Speaking at Woodford FF but this is connected.
I do not understand why or where the qualified Australian Aboriginal health people are on this matter. I am just a parent and this needs attention it concerns me that no one has come forward at all. This lady is not a spokesperson and I think many would also like to hear from a Australian Aboriginal person who is qualified on this matter. There are many nurses or people who are able to help maybe they need this raised to them and then it is done correctly not made into some sort of scandal. I support detailed information that is able to be understood by all people not just Doctors or nurses saying I told you so. I have been told similar things that this is to wipe out the population of Australian Aboriginals this is pure rubbish. I went and asked my nurse when my youngest required vaccinations. I was told the myths I might here and where they come from not that I paid attention to them all. I was explained what the reasons are and why certain vaccinations are important to us Australian Aboriginals. I was also encouraged to go and seek more information which I did from people who I knew would tell me the truth and I look at evidence. No one spoke in a dramatic way it was here these are the facts. I was not treated as those poor uneducated Australian Aboriginal. There was a mention of due to certain reasons why vaccines are beneficial and important. I asked though and I was lucky enough to have had someone take the time to explain things to me.I was not treated like an idiot they were very respectful. There is no harm in taking traditional bush medicine but the world is a different world and we need extra protection. My children are important to me and I will not have anyone lie to me about things. This is an area we need as a nation to be united on. I am saddened by Tiga trusting this person who wants to wipe out my people. Dorey used manipulation tactics and knows the words to say. If you are calm and just discuss things in a matter of fact way then this is how Dorey got a voice. We all need to be calm in voice but contacting the correct people to help in this area. You cant yell at people and say just do it because here read the science not all people know this plus trust is hard. Please understand with correct information and people all helping this can be dealt with no more harm to children due to misinformation.
http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/key-resources/programs-projects?pid=269
Another resource to pass on plus people to contact who have expertise.
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Nicole, I am confused. That CM story was written two days AFTER Mamamia first ran this story: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/woodford-folk-festival-allows-dangerous-anti-vax-woman-to-speak/ which we then followed up with this story: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/dont-take-her-nonsense-seriously-qld-on-avns-meryl-dorey/ which was preceded by this story with helpful medical information about vaccines: http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
Not sure how you can still make the argument we aren’t getting the facts out there. Baffling, that is.
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Who’s “We”, Olga?
One of the many lies is those of us in Stop the AVN don’t like anything unless it’s pharmaceutical or western medical. Absolutely not true.
We don’t hate natural therapies at all. Homeopathy doesn’t count, as it’s water that’s been shaken a special way. That does nothing.
Stop the AVN is not a hate group full of bullies.
The AVN, Meryl and her buddies who run the Facebook group (and I have no doubt you’re one of her cronies or at least very familiar with their work there, Olga) block anyone who disagrees or asks questions on their page, yet bang on about making sure people question and are skeptical about vaccination. Total hypocrites and a complete lie about SAVN.
She claims to be speaking about the link between vaccination and autism – that would indeed be a short speech as THERE IS NONE.
Wow. So many lies in such a small amount of time. Quite a feat.
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Kris,
To your comment below, I already read the transcript of the interview and understand what Tiga’s views are (and I disagree with them in respect to vaccinations). That was not my point – he says in the interview that what he is stating is his ‘personal views’. To simply flatten out all his beliefs as being simply on account of his Aboriginal Australian heritage and the history there and being an unwitting victim with ‘pure intentions’ who needs to be educated by a person that has no expertise in medicine or Aboriginal health, that a disease can kill ‘like a bullet’ is extraordinarily condescending.
And whilst I don’t have any faith in homeopathy – I do think traditional systems of medicine that have been developed by communities over many thousands of years with contact of their natural environment have merit. I can give you plenty of examples of these that have been scoffed at and belittled by western medicine and later found out to be evidence based.
Chrys fails to mention in this piece that another member of the Australian Skeptics Society (which she is also member of) did ring in and was allowed to speak on air during the interview already. I find her lack of disclosure disingenuous. There wasn’t really a need for another member of the same group, who has no qualifications, to also ring up and let Tiga in on how he is being ‘deceived’.
I like a lot of the things the Skeptics society does in informing people about vaccinations but I do not find them particularly sensitive to other peoples belief systems, both with regards to natural medicines and spiritual beliefs. Trampling over them in regards to Aboriginal beliefs and the sensitivities and vulnerabilities already present here, even with the best intentions will only make matters worse.
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I was actually impressed they let the call go to air – as I said, it was an anti-vax, anti-science echo chamber being broadcast. Damaging to let her air her views anywhere with any semblance of authority, let alone in the manipulative way she did in that interview.
I don’t dispute that there are very likely members of both Stop the AVN and the Skeptics who denounce all forms of natural and traditional medicine. I was more pointing out the utter strawman constructed by Meryl, and Tiga going along with it.
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I find it intriguing that Tiga, as “opposed” to “white men” as he may be, is so quick to trust Meryl Dorey. Isn’t she white? Hold up… she’s not even Australian.
My shenanigans meter just went off the scales. Sorry, but Tiga Bayles, as much as he’s done for his community, will be just as responsible for preventable deaths from disease in that same community as Dorey in this one, thanks only to his influence and past credibility. It’s a shame… I once respected this man.
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We are surprised, Martin, that you now blame Tiga for Australian deaths. Is this not what “Phil” alluded to in the interview? Have you Martin, listened to the 40-minute interview?
I suggest not, and await your proof of claim that Meryl Dorey and Tiga are both responsible for deaths in Australia.
Are you “racist”, implying that only Australians, should be able to speak of Australian health?
What of those you are not like us (who were born here)? Do they not hold the same right to speak their mind?
Michael, shame on you. What proof do you have that non-vaccination causes death?
We are talking of an interview which we thought was great, and yet you speak of racism and responsibility for death when the interview was clearly questioning the quality of vaccines in Aboriginal communities.
Olga A.
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@AntivaxTroll pretending to be an Indigenous Australian (highly offensive to everyone, I must add), asks:
“What proof do you have that non-vaccination causes death?”
Here you go:
“Queensland Health is alerting general practitioners to the first case of respiratory diphtheria acquired in Australia since 1993. A 22 year old woman has died of confirmed diphtheria on 30 April 2011. She was known to be unvaccinated and had no history of overseas travel.”
http://www.agpn.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/37792/20110505_doc_Diphtheria-Qld-alert.pdf
We could do this all night. But, I won’t.
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Original comment edited – posting tired and late at night I conflated comments from Nicole and Olga. Thank you Nicole for pointing that out. Amended comment as follows:
I am loathe to comment on my own articles, but I feel I have to say something here. I don’t wish to make accusations, but there is something about Olga Abraham’s posts that don’t seem quite right. It does seem rather curious that Meryl has been known to liken herself to Abraham Lincoln on the matter of Truth – but perhaps that is merely coincidence.
I would also like to address Nicole’s criticisms. This article was checked for cultural appropriateness by a local elder who assured me I had made no breaches of etiquette. I also adhered to the linguistic etiquette drummed into me at university by a Professor whose partner was Indigenous and who had spent many years working in Indigenous communities.
I appreciate that different individuals may have different sensitivities and I am sorry if I have offended yours. However I find your remarks curious as my Indigenous friends routinely describe themselves as Indigenous and Aboriginal when speaking generally.
Let me explain the reason why it is actually often *more* politically correct to use the generic term *Aborigines* than a clan name. It is often difficult to definitively determine exact boundaries when it comes to Aboriginal clans – especially in areas like Lake Weyba which was a boundary area.
It seems most likely those killed in the Lake Weyba massacre were Dulingbara or Undumbi people, rather than Gubbi Gubbi (Kabi Kabi) people who lived (for the most part and to the best of our knowledge) further west.
I also note that Dr Eve Fesl an elder of the Gubbi Gubbi people uses that nomenclature rather than Kabi Kabi as Nicole does.
It is true that some believe the Dulingbara were part of the Gubbi Gubbi clan, although some historians suspect they were a separate clan, or perhaps a part of another clan, the Batjala. In fact, there was some fluidity in nomenclature depending upon one’s relationship to the group in question. Perhaps you’re starting to see why it’s easier and actually *more* politically correct to use the generic term ‘Aborigine’ in articles of this sort?
I don’t wish to labour the point and I’m not interested in getting into a protracted argument about local indigenous boundaries and family groups- that’s not the point of the article. I just want to suggest that Nicole’s particular sensitivity is not shared by all Indigenous people and that the use of the wrong clan name could be even more insulting.
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Actually it was myself who said that I was not aware that Olga did. I support Vaccination though so does that mean I am a troll to ?
Anecdotal evidence means nothing if you spoke to a local elder were they from the Kobi Kobi as that can make some minor difference.
That would have been good if you had used them as a reference in your article. If they are not Kobi Kobi then it would never have been raised. I hope I have cleared that up. It would have been nice to have contacted the local people and alerted the health professionals the one’s who work with and are themselves Australian Aboriginals. More lies would be fought against this person who wants to hurt my people.
I think I already included this link.
http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/key-resources/programs-projects?pid=269
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Please don’t tell me my that I am incorrect as I am not in the slightest. Kabi Kabi from the Sunshine Coast this also does not mean that you are in correct you might want to look into it more. The thing is I do not understand why a person who is from there and wants to help has not been in contact with the Australian Aboriginal Community Health there ? considering they are the ones who give information regarding immunisations.
You are correct that it can be complicated however this is an important issue and if you had of spoken to the Elders connected to the Community Health then this would not be an issue. You had someone check it . It is not my particular sensitivity I find your words that you choose to you as dismissive and condescending. This is about the health of people in the region and someone taking advantage of that. If someone is going to help why not show respect and discuss with Australian Aboriginal people who work in that area. It would get the point across and actually help people. However ignorance is shown here from the Author of this article. Who used emotional language and no information to assist in this area. Like I have said before helping is easy once you have the correct information and the correct people to sort this out. It is a serious matter. I do not understand why you have not done this. It is obvious you went to some effort but not talking to the people who needed to hear makes me question your motives for this article. Using this serious health matter to promote yourself to your sceptic community. I hope this is not the case and it can be corrected. I am unsure of your reasons for writing this article. Why use the word tragedy this is not a romance or historical novel this is real life, real people. There was already people who work in this area to be informed over the media interview or at least they could have been made aware of it.
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Nicole
I really do not think this is the time or the place to argue the semantics of the Aboriginal nation, yes it is an issue but the lives and the health of children is the main issue here not what name we wish them to be called by.
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I didn’t blame him, I said he would be as responsible. Read my words, they are very plain. If aboriginal children, who are more susceptible to disease than “white” children (fact), are not vaccinated based on the misinformation of Meryl Dorey, which Tiga’s influence has now helped to spread.
I don’t care much for your attempt to defame me by accusing of racism. I am not racist. But it isn’t just “white” Australians speaking of health in this country. I strongly recommend you read this before you make any more unfounded accusations, or ask any more stupid questions.
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/content/124B34E350C13EB9CA2575BD001C812D/$File/pa9626-ab-vac-rep.pdf
The interview was a one-side fallacious sham, nothing more.
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But, of course, if you actually represented a member of your community, you would already be privy to the document I linked you to. If not, then now you are.
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Olga, Meryl Dorey is an habitual liar. Here are 209 lies, fully documented. Dorey has been asked to correct any errors, and never has .
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/47704677/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-the-Truth-Part-1
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 2
http://www.scribd.com/doc/60227728/Meryl-DoreysTrouble-With-the-Truth-Part-2
Meryl Dorey’s Trouble With The Truth part 3
http://www.scribd.com/doc/69196048/Meryl-Doreys-Trouble-With-The-Truth-Part3-Lies-and-Fraud
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Ken all I can say is that I admire your stamina and keep up the good work!
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I listened to the interview, but did not hear any lie. This article mentions lies, but does not specify them. What lie?
I think Meryl Dorey is being used as a scapegoat, or focus-target, as she spoke of my views, and I suspect she also is just a spokesperson for many, many people in Australia.
Why attack Meryl, when what she says, is what is required to be addressed. No-one is addressing the issue, they seem to just be attacking a person. And the attack continues on to Tiga.
I wonder why the AVN has so many members, and professional ones as well. I know that medical people also support the AVN.
The Australian Skeptic, Phil, did not do himself any favour. It seems to me that his white-man magic, may be just another blanket covered with white-man sores.
The medical people are not able to answer my concerns, but Meryl Dorey addresses them, and I think her 40 minute interview was very good, exposing a viewpoint that we are not being told by authorities in our community.
I have researched the AVN and if I was able to, I would become a member. The government has stopped me, so I shall just buy on-line a couple of their publications and a book or two. They have an interesting web-site.
Olga.
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Actually I think everyone has addressed the issue beautifully. The information that the AVN peddles is wrong. Very wrong indeed. And so are you.
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Lucindainthesky, I did not realise someone would respond so soon.
The article did not specify what the AVN is wrong about, and neither do you.
I am not here for an argument, just to state where I stand. Please be gentle with me. I represent most of my community and we have mostly-all listened to the interview and support both Tiga and Meryl.
Do you support Phil? Her certainly did not present himself very well at all. In fact, he riled us.
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Hi Olga, sorry if I was abrupt. I’m not sure what Phil has said, but Mamamia ran this article the other day which has a lot of information about the misinformation the AVN spreads:
http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/woodford-folk-festival-allows-dangerous-anti-vax-woman-to-speak/
Meryl Dorey is well known for comparing vaccines to “poison” and “rape” and insists that homeopathic vaccinations are more effective that conventional ones. She also claims that the decline in incidence of infectious diseases like smallpox, polio, whooping cough and measles is not related to the introduction of vaccines. None of this information is true. Vaccines are put through very stringent testing processes and undergo a great deal of research in Australia. Research is both undertaken and reviewed and critiqued by a huge body of medical science professionals. And the decline in disease since the introduction of vaccination is very clear in studies the world over. Meryl is incomprehensibly wrong in her views that the benefits do not outweigh the risks. Reactions to vaccines are very rare. She is not giving you the real story, please believe this.
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lucindainthesky,
You need to listen to the interview, prior to commenting any further.
You are trying to bring in new matter, which is not what we have been discussing. You have been commenting on an arfticle, and interview, which you have not heard.
I find this strange. What is your agenda?
If you want to discuss an historical article, I am sure Mamamia still has room for you there.
Sorry, but I don’t know what you are talking about and am just focused on the current article.
I look forward to your comments once you inform yourself.
Olga.
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Olga, this article relates to many we have run on Mamamia. The history is important because we have verified the inaccuracies the AVN peddle. More to the point, science has verified the inaccuracies.
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Olga, I am discussing the “work” of the AVN directly and the fact that Meryl Dorey is spreading misinformation, which is what this article is about. I cannot get the podcast to play on my computer, however I am already aware of Meryl Dorey and the false information she is spreading. I encourage you to read further on the risks versus benefits of vaccination, because you will find that benefits outweigh the risks enormously.
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The title of this article begins: “A three part tragedy”.
This is part three.
I recommend you read the other two. I look forward to your comments once you inform yourself.
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I must apologise as I have just realised the “three parts” referred to are in this one article. I had initially taken it to refer to the three mamamia articles on Woodford/Dorey.
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The medical people don’t address your concerns? You can make an appointment with your gp or as many gp’s as you like and discuss your concerns.
Im a health professional and we are trained to respect the wishes of our patients. We can’t coerce you into an opinion. We can give you guidance and information but ultimately the decision is yours.
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Sharon (Pharmacist),
well, that’s all we have out here, is the GP.
Meryl’s 40-minute interview was a real eye-opener.
I think all indigenous people should have the right to listen to Meryl Dorey.
At the moment, all they hear, is from you GP’s and Pharmacists, peddling your drugs. Where’s you natural alternatives? You have none.
It was like a breath of fresh air, to listen to Meryl. And the internet, such a great thing, so the interview is being spread widely, both here and overseas.
Pharmacist (Sharon) why do you object to listening and accepting such information? What lies were stated?
All I can think, is that it goes totally against your years of professional training. Perhaps you were trained by a system that ignored a few things, like Aboriginal health. When did you start caring for Aborigines? Was it when you could see some money to be made? Or do you just think the world shines when your drugs are used? We are not entirely happy with your pharmaceutical drugging of indigenous people. We see new problems.
Olga.
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Hi Olga,
Some of Dorey’s lies are contained here. There is not a blog post big enough to contain all of them. There are many links contained for further, more in-depth reading.
Cheers
http://reasonablehank.com/2011/12/18/demonstrable-liars-and-constructive-public-vaccination-debate/
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Peter,
I noted to “lucindainthesky” that she had not listened to the interview.
I note that you also have not.
Peter, please do not comment on material that you have no knowledge of.
Your reference above, contains historical material, which I glanced at, but will not delve into, because all I am focused on is this latest interview and content.
As I asked “lucindainthesky”, what is your agenda?
You are now the 2nd person wasting reader’s and my time by making comment on something that you know nothing about.
The interview is 40 minutes long and when you have heard it, then please specify the lies that Meryl Dorey is accused by you of stating.
We did not hear any lies.
What is your agenda Peter?
We have people now filing into our community centre eager to read updates on this matter so we await your detail of which lies Meryl Dorey is supposed to have said in this interview.
Olga A.
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I have heard the interview, and it has been transcribed, here:
http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4294
Homeopathy as “valid alternative to medical vaccination”?
- Lie
“We actually think that it’s wrong to be anti- or pro- vaccination except for yourself. But being anti-vaccine as an organisation would mean, as far as we’re concerned, telling people that they shouldn’t vaccinate and we never do that.”
- Lie. See my above link which upset you so much, courageous anonymous commenter.
“Agenda”? Facts. Also, I lold that you said “agenda”
Do you want me to go on?
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Ah, I see that “anonymous” is indeed Olga. Sorry for missing that bit. You appear to be very defensive of Ms Dorey, Olga. What is your “agenda”?
It’s early, but, I call troll.
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“I noted to “lucindainthesky” that she had not listened to the interview. I note that you also have not.”
Oops. There goes another cup of coffee and another keyboard.
“We did not hear any lies.”
How do you know? Earlier you said Ms Dorey’s interview was a real eye-opener – which suggests she gave advice and information that was new to you. So how do you know this information was correct?
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Olga I can give you an example of one outright lie from Meryl’s interview. She claimed that the SAVN took out half page newspaper ads in a number of Western Australian newspapers. This is a lie. The ads were all a a quarter of a page in size or less.
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Where are their natural alternatives? Well, one, I’ve been told by a doctor that I could use St. John’s Wort if I prefer (natural prozac), and two?
A little riddle:
What do you call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine.
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Olga, I did not hear the interview so I can not comment about what was actually said, except in response to any claim that parents should avoid giving their children vaccines because of the risks involved.I can’t address her specific arguments, but I can address her conclusion. Like with any medical procedure (from taking blood to major surgery) we must weigh up the risks associated with undergoing that procedure or avoiding it. Vaccines do carry the risk of side-effects, although these are very rare. The risks associated with contracting the illnesses these vaccines provide protection against, however, can be and are disastrous. Children die from measles, whooping cough and chicken pox (etc) and by suggesting that parents not vaccinate their children, Meryl and others of the AVN are putting these children at serious risk, in order to avoid issues that have been shown to be false in multiple scientific studies.
It worries me immensely when you say that most of your community accepts Meryl’s arguments because by convincing you to not vaccinate she has put your children, and those who cannot be vaccinated, at real and deadly risk. I really encourage you to keep reading about this subject, especially the studies which have been put through stringent controls, and to keep talking to the doctors and other health professionals who are also well read in these studies when considering whether or not to vaccinate. There is a fairly recent article on the MM site written by a doctor which debunks some of the myths supported by the AVN which is a good starting point.
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Great response. Like 1000 times.
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You don’t think meryl dorey lies?
I have an interesting website, too.
http://meryldorey.org/
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This is the fourth MM article to focus on Meryl Dorey in just over a week.
It’s great to see discussion on this very important issue. However, do you think that perhaps we could expand the view just a little bit, beyond Meryl and the AVN?
It would be nice to think that there might be other articles in the pipeline that aren’t just about how wonderful our vaccination program is and how evil Meryl Dorey and the AVN are. How about an article on why we should improve the adverse reaction reporting process in Australia? Or, perhaps an article on the sad cases of Saba Button or Ashley Epapara? Or why we should aim to improve the safety and efficacy of the current schedule? Or, the fact that the pertussis vaccine has been found to only cover two of the five strains in current circulation (and why it’s important for vaccinated people to know this)? Or why there is currently no compensation scheme in Australia for victims of adverse reactions to vaccines?
Or, is any form of criticism of vaccination not allowed in the World of MM?
Just a suggestion
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100% agree!!!
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I disagree, Ally. I admire the mamamia team for using their site for the public interest.
The information about the excess of fever reactions in young children in WA is well known – it has been covered in both the lay press and the medical press (including the MJA). That’s why it was withdrawn. The problem was not that the vaccine was “toxic” but that it caused an excess of fevers, which went to cause seizures in some children.
Children aged less than 5 are particularly vulnerable to having seizures with fever (febrile convulsions) because their immature brains are more sensitive to high temperature. These are common (seen in emergency departments and GP practices every day of the week) and almost always benign. They are generally caused by an ordinary viral infection – vaccine-related fevers are NOT one of the most common causes. Rarely, a tragedy happens to a child like Saba Button, where the seizure goes on and on, uncontrolled, and the child’s brain is harmed. This is a tragedy for the child and family, but it is not an argument against vaccination. The childhood illnesses we vaccinate against cause far more fevers and convulsions than vaccines ever could.
For those who wish to see more valid and reliable information disseminated about vaccination – both effects and safety – please support and circulate this petition at change.org:
http://www.change.org/petitions#search/stop%20misinformation%20about%20vaccination
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Ally, Mamamia are reporting on Meryl now because she is news right now. Ahsley and Saba, sad cases as they were, are not current news, they happened months ago. I would hate to see Mamamia using these tragic stories as a case against vaccination because they are simply not. It is quite possible that both Saba and Ashley would have suffered the same fate and terrible reaction to a virus in the real world, and as we are all aware, in the case of these two precious little girls, the fluvax vaccine was immediately suspended.
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Totally agree – have noticed the repeat of the same message this week on the same topic…
Isn’t it the responsibility of every individual to do their research before putting anything into their bodies – vaccines included?
There is a whole barrage of information out there and whether you believe it or not it’s your responsibility and ONLY yours to research and find out the effects of vaccinating/not vaccinating.
This issue will continue to bubble away and aggravate people – but really, if people choose to do / not do something just from hearing one radio interview or reading one newspaper article than that person a) is ridiculously STUPID and b) doesn’t respect their body at all.
Put your thinking caps on people….sort it out for yourself and do what YOU believe in.
It woud be nice to see a different angle MM, as per the above suggestions – just for once this week?
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The idea that choice is lovely is wonderful, where it does not endanger the rest of us. You sure do get to choose what you do with your body, but you don’t get to make up your own facts that by choosing not to you are putting the rest of us – particularly our most vulnerable like babies, Australian Aboriginals and the elderly – at tremendous risk. Mamamia is proud to stand on the side of public health and accurate information.
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Well said as usual, Rick
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The reason that Dorey and the AVN are valid targets for criticism is because they are the main proponents of this incorrect and dangerous view point. By discussing their appearances and media representation you gain a useful framing device for disseminating information and ideas.
That by the way is ignoring the unconscionable tactics of the AVN (harassing grieving parents of children who’ve died of pertussis for example) which warrant discussion in their own right.
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Several of those points, like compensation, have been covered – and even agreed with – in the various commentaries.
This one intrigues me though… “Or why we should aim to improve the safety and efficacy of the current schedule? ”
What makes you think that isn’t happening? Has someone told you that science has ceased?
One of the reasons the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine isn’t super-dooper effective is because we use a safer version than we used to.
And… “Or, the fact that the pertussis vaccine has been found to only cover two of the five strains in current circulation”
Can you imagine the response of the anti-vaccine lobby if we added another four vaccines tomorrow (assuming that was even possible)? But science takes time – especially when dealing with the lives of children. Unlike homeopathy, science isn’t magic.
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I realise that science takes time Andy. However it seems on this forum that if anyone even remotely criticises the current vaccination schedule they are labelled ánti-vax’ or a troll. Believe it or not, it is possible to be both pro vaccination and also point out the limitations and need for improvement. Not everyone who questions vaccination is a follower of the AVN or Meryl Dorey.
My point about the pertussis vaccine is that I continually hear in these types of forums that the outbreaks of whooping cough are due to parents who don’t vaccinate. However, in reality, those who don’t vaccinate are a very small minority and the rise in cases is more to do with the limitations of the vaccine itself, than a problem with vaccination rates.
No, science isn’t magic and science does not always have consensus either, that’s the beauty of it. It continually evolves based on new findings and evidence. I don’t know a lot about homeopathy, but I’ve never heard of it referred to as ‘magic’ either – perhaps one day they will find scientific evidence to show that it has merit too. Who really knows?
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Homeopathy has had many studies done it. None of them find it to be effective. The thing is homeopathic “magic potions” don’t change, ever. They are based on old wives tales, so any studies that are done are not likely to ever show any different results. Homeopathy is dying out the way iridology did, because it is not effective and studies have shown this over and over again. People practicing iridology used to to claim they could diagnose cirrhosis of the liver and different types of cancer among other things from examining a person’s iris. Horrifying studies showed that when given a bunch of people to examine, some of whom had cancer and various diseases, that the people practicing this “medicine” failed to diagnose every single person with a condition, yet diagnosed those who did not have any such condition with a disease. I would be happy to write a piece for Mamamia about the evidence that homeopathy does/doesn’t work if it would provide a different angle that might interest people. But Mamamia will only run a piece based on factual information – it can’t pull merits of such alternative medicine out of thin air if there are none.
Rick, would you guys like a piece about alternative medicine, with a focus on homeopathic vaccines?
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In general, I think most genuine questions are either met with useful advice fro any medicos that post here or generic advice to “speak to your doctor” from those of us who are not medically trained.
But I’m not sure that immunology researchers need to be told about “limitations”. I expect they know them – that’s why they’re still researching. To them, I expect it sounds a bit like “are we there yet?”
As for pertussis, the vast majority of adults are effectively unvaccinated, as understand it, because immunity wanes. So while you might read of vaccination rates of 95% (a figure Ms Dorey loves to quote), that applies only to children. There are drives for adults, especially new parents, grand parents and those who work closely with kids, to get boosters. It would be nice if this was more widely publicised – but that’s a political issue, like compensation and politics sometimes seems to move slower than science.
For the record, I didn’t take umbrage at your questions and I hope my response didn’t appear hostile because I was conscious of the fact you weren’t lecturing people on the evils of vaccines. But please understand that people who spend a lot of time engaged in this “discussion” see an endless stream of “concern trolls” who feign concern whilst actually pushing an anti-vax barrow.
Homeopathy is basically a matter of ritually rinsing containers many times then claiming you’re left with medicine. It breaks long-standing laws of physics and chemistry. So while it is technically possible that homeopathy will be shown to work one day, it is also possible the sun will rise in the west tomorrow. But until homeopathy is shown to work beyond placebo, it doesn’t seem ethical to charge people for it.
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I would love to see an article that looks at Jenny McCarthy’s role in the antivax movement – she has much more influence, and it is terrifying.
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I am shaking with rage right now. Meryl Dorey is dangerous. I feel sick.
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I still dont fully understand why people are scared of Vaccination?
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Because some very evil people are able to influence their rational wish to care for their children by using scare-tactics backed by lies.
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And some people like to live a 100% natural life and not put toxins and chemicals into and on their bodies….just another thought…
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Yes good one, don’t worry about the rest of your community just yourself. Awesome.
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The problem is that there are people who genuinely cannot receive vaccines (age, allergies, etc.) and they rely upon herd immunity. This is compromised by individuals who refuse to vaccinate and thus endangers the populous.
Also don’t give me rubbish about living a natural life. When people lived natural lives (ie hunter/gatherers, for example all farmed food/seeds are genetically modified through unnatural selection) they lived on average til about 30.
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Pete, I wasn’t trying to be offensive or make up rubbish..I just happen to know people that do live that way and do have the mentality that if it’s time to go at whatever age, then it’s their time to go.
While I don’t think like that I was just offering a different side to the two being debated that’s all :/
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So is death by vaccine preventable disease ‘natural’ enough? If a baby caught whooping cough and lost his / her life would that be ok? A short life, but 100% natural. Perfect!
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“And some people like to live a 100% natural life and not put toxins and chemicals into and on their bodies”
That’s not possible.
Everything is a chemical. Everything! Freshly melted Alpine snow is a 100% chemical. Oxygen is 100% chemical. Organic Lentils and Acai Berries are 100% chemical.
WE’RE 100% chemicals.
And we have to eat toxins. A lot of our essential nutrients are known toxins. The formaldehyde that scares the pants off anti-vaxxers is a 100% organic chemical that our own bodies produce naturally.
The fight to eradicate all chemicals and toxins from your life is a fight against reality.
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“each to their own” etc – does living a “100% natural life” include commenting on blog sites? Using a mobile phone? Driving a car? Ever stray to a chocolate? (full of “chemicals”)
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Dear ‘sue’ as previously stated to ‘Pete’ I wasn’t talking about myself and was referring to a group of people I know of that live that way. Thank you for disregarding and not reading my response above.
Open eyes.
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I heard about her being on Aboriginal Community radio yesterday and was livid.
I’m forwarding this to my mum who is a CEO at an Aboriginal Medical Centre in NSW. I am hoping one her contacts can get in touch with the radio station to provide some correct information.
I would say a lot more but it’s crazy hour in this house at the moment.
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The last thing our indigenous population needs is an increase in infectious diseases. IN particular, we know how important pneumococcal vaccination is against the debilitating middle ear disease that causes deafness. Ms Dorey, have you ever seen inside an ear where the drum has been ruptured so many times by bacterial infection that you can see directly into the middle ear? That’s one of the things pneumococcal vaccine is aimed at preventing. Worthwhile aim, don’t you think?
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NATIONAL ABORIGINAL COMMUNITY CONTROLLED HEALTH ORGANISATION
admin@naccho.org.au
Ask these guys what they think.
Please send them an email or give them a call and ask what they are going to do to protect the lives of Aboriginal children.
http://www.naccho.org.au/
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I’m not sure, but I think the Australian government department of Health and ageing would be a better bet to contact. I’m not sure how much power Naccho has…
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/health-central.htm
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I think it’s worth spreading this to as many people as we can. Never mind whether the NACCHO is useful now, this is information that affects futures, and is relevant to their mission, and people who start in NACCHO could end up in any number of places
Not that I disagree, I just think that we need to think long-term
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This is incredibly timely for me, what a powerful piece of writing.
I’ve just read that an unvaccinated woman brought a little souvenier back from overseas in Adelaide, and now there’s the potential for an outbreak which govt health departments are on full alert for.
I crossed the floor on vaccination a while ago when I realised the fears I had of the “evils” of vaccines that were being espoused did not outweigh the cascade of worries I was feeling everytime one of my children showed the first sign of a sniffle. Despite us being vaccinated with this latest news in Adelaide I am still worried but at the very least I know I’ve done all I can to protect my children and others.
As for the indigenous population mentioned is this story, it is incredibly sad that the trust is going to completely the wrong person and movement particularly as so many Aboriginal people are forced to live in third world conditions the likes of which people suffering with overseas are lining up to get vaccinated for. There must surely be some respected well known people in the indigenous population that are prepared to speak up about vaccinations merits, this might be the best way to counteract and cut through Doreys bs?
Here is the link to the latest confirmed case in Adelaide:http://www.sahealth.sa.gov.au/wps/wcm/connect/public+content/sa+health+internet/health+information/news/health+alerts/111219+-+measles+case+in+adelaide+metropolitan+area
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That was so well written- so moving. I had tears reading it!
Bravo Chrys!
Meryl Dory should be ashamed of herself.
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The saddest part is that Aboriginals already suffer disproportionately high incidence of diseases including chronic respiratory conditions and diabetes compared to the rest of the population due to lack of adequate education on health (leading to poor levels of hygeine in many cases) and poor access to health services. They already shy away from the “white man’s medicine” and as a result have a much shorter life expectancy than the rest of the country and this toxic woman is just exacerbating the problems. She really does need to be stopped. I just hope it is sooner rather than later.
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Exactly. She’s not content with merely screwing with the heads of relatively spoiled north-coast hippies – she has to go and blurt her rhetoric to Australia’s most vulnerable population.
This is one of the most abhorrent things she does, and she does a lot of abhorrent things
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I agree Jase. Unfortunately I think Meryl truly believes everything she dribbles, I don’t believe she does it out of spite or to be evil. That is what makes her such a danger to public health – she speaks with enough conviction that a lot of very naive people are brainwashed into believing her, but there is no law preventing her from speaking out. All we can really do is make people aware of what she does.
The other scary thing is how much other anti vax stuff there is out there, you just have to search ‘vaccination dangers’ on youtube and there is plenty of fear mongering from other sources perpetuating these beliefs. If people are scared of vaccines they don’t have to look far to build a case against them in their own minds. We can only counteract this stuff by educating people properly. The government really needs to step up to the plate and fund major campaigns to ensure that the rate of immunisation stays high. It is the only way.
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I think it goes beyond Meryl ‘believing’ what she preaches – She probably still does believe what she preaches – despite knowing that her lies have been realised.
It’s obvious she is not a very smart woman, she fails at basic mathematics and referencing.
I am sure she does think she sees ‘proof’ in her ‘research’, because, as I have already stated, she is not that intelligent … but what she lacks in intelligence she certainly makes up for in deception, in obfuscation and in ignoring the many calls of proof to deny her claims.
This is what makes her more evil than simply abhorrent.
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Aboriginal people are already at high risk for certain health complications, such as Otitis Media. I am sure that given some of their living conditions, they are vulnerable to other health issues also.
Meryl Dorey has stooped again to below the belt tactics to push her agenda. I have no doubt that all she is interested in, is being “right”…and fuck the fallout that comes from her perpetuation of misinformation.
I wonder if she is aware that the European introduction of smallpox in 1789 that wiped out half the Aboriginal population in Sydney?
This link from Government Health outlines the importance of vaccination amongst ATSI infants and children: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi32suppl.htm~cda-cdi32suppl-results.htm~cda-cdi32suppl-results-pertussis.htm
One more thing: Homeopathic vaccines? When I found out what homeopathy was, I was incensed. A bottle of water, in an “energised” bottle, to be shaken in order to “work”?
Mark Crislip from Science Based Medicine has this to say about homeopathics: “Homeopathy is the art of giving absolutely nothing and believing that it is something.”
Homeopathy is outrageously deceptive. Just like Dorey.
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Thank you for your opinion Steph but I have to completely disagree with your comments on Homeopathy. I am intelligent and well educated and the simplest, cheapest ($5 for the drops and bottle), quickest working and most successful medicine I have ever had was homeopathic. Doctors said I needed surgery or would die, I visited a lady and three days after taking her drops the pain disappeared. Pain I had previously had every day for over a year. And am now completely cured 5 years later because of a $5 bottle of her drops. Doctors are great in emergency and surgical procedures but for true holistic health a Doctor is not suitable for all people. Just speaking from personal experience for what it’s worth. Thanks for listening.
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Anonymous, you’ve pretty much contradicted yourself. On one hand you’ve stated that you believe western medicine is best for emergencies, which your condition apparently was, but you’ve said your life was saved by a $5 bottle of homeopathic drops and that homeopathy is good for the holistic side of medicine. I don’t doubt that homeopathy helps some with more holistic less life threatening conditions, but not ones that will kill.
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One day my TV stopped working. I tried everything I could but it refused to switch on. I put it in the car and took it to the repair shop but it was closed. So I took it back home, plugged it in and pressed the switch. It’s worked ever since. Apparently TVs like a ride through the suburbs occasionally – and I have the proof. But I still think repair people are useful for serious issues.
On the other hand, homeoprophylaxis makes no sense by the principles of either real medicine or homeopathy.
In homeopathy, a remedy is tested via a “proving” which involves giving a diluted product to a well person and seeing how it affects them. If it makes them dizzy, it is considered to be a good treatment for dizziness. If it makes them vomit, it becomes a treatment for nausea.
As a result, the homeopathic treatment for insomnia is diluted caffeine.
Homeoprophylaxis (homeopathic immunisation) also involves giving a diluted product to a well person. If homeopathic provings have any validity, then a pertussis homeoprophylactic should give your kid whooping cough. It doesn’t, of course, because it’s just water or sugar pills or, sometimes, alcohol.
So, at the very least, either provings or homeoprphylaxis must be wrong. Which one though?
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I am very happy that you feel that you homeopathic drops worked, Anonymous, albeit skeptical at this anecdotal piece of information. I have not idea what your health issue was or what your surgical procedure was and so I am loathe to comment.
While there is no doubt that homeopathy is dangerous and exploitative, I have no issue with people who employ alt-med *in conjunction* with evidence based medicine. If they want to spend their money on magical water and energised bottles, that is their business.
The problem I DO have is with people who claim that homeopathy and holisitic medicine should *replace* western medicine…like Dorey, who is encourgaing vulnerable Aboriginal people to eschew conventional medicine and take homeopathic vaccines INSTEAD.
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I am sorry Anonymous but your story is a load of bull dust. If it happened just as you say it happened, I would suggest that your condition resolved itself or that your condition was psychosomatic. You were sold a bottle of water. That’s all – just water. As for the price $5 – wow! – you must have visited a rather benevolent homeopath. My research has found that the cost for a bottle of water from a homeopath can start at $40 going up to over $100.
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This is heartbreaking
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Thank you for writing this…such an important issue and I hope Dorey’s time in the spotlight is nearing its end and that her lies go with her.
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The ‘crying’ in this article is distracting and takes the focus away from the most important point – the dangerous advice of Meryl Dorey. Can someone please write a serious article about this woman that I can share with people? It’s important to get this info out there without it being clouded by the self-indulgence of the author talking about how much she cries.
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Hi Victoria. MM has been covering this issue from all angles because we believe it is critical to public health. Meryl Dorey, as head of the AVN, is anti-vaccination. The myths and inaccuracies she has been found to pedal are mostly wrapped up here and debunked. This should help with the science side of things. http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
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I have to agree with Victoria here. This is a very serious issue for all Australians. We all need to help with having access to correct information to be able to counteract people like the person from the AVN. Sometimes people think they are helping and in fact they are not example this article.
This is something that is occurring now right here in Australia right in Queensland on the Sunshine Coast plus other areas. I want to hear and read from a person who has more experience than this self indulgence written here.
MM I realise you want to cover all angles of this argument however this is not a argument or a debate. Meryl Dorey has sadly been at this a long time this needs to be dealt with correctly.Aboriginal Health on the Sunshine Coast is the way to go, they are trusted members to some in the community.
We as Australians need our medical profession to start informing people not atheist bloggers who just jumped on a bandwagon. I can’t go around and sharing this with friends due to the loaded language present in it. I know you must feel that you are supporting people but this is not it. Please MM think twice about supporting something like this article,just stick to the facts this is a health concern and a serious one at that. Also I am offended by the use of subtle condescending racism in this article to make a point. The Australian Aboriginal people of the Sunshine Coast Hinterland are the Kabi Kabi people. Please never ever refer to them as Aborigines or Indigenous ( the latter is a insult and also a colonialist name) originally it referred to flora and fauna.
http://www.northcoast.net.au/ has a email to contact regarding this issue. This services the whole region has some great contacts.
I suggest directing this serious matter to Auntie Olive she is a elder or you could try Sharelle who would be able to suggest the best person to speak to regarding this matter.
Discussing concerns calmly is the way to go. Australian Aboriginal people overall respect calm no flowery or loaded language. Dorey might get a voice and I do not want that to be the case. Tiga is already on side for this, it could be a hard one now. A softly softly approach is needed Please. Lives need to be saved.
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I hear what you say about being referred to as aboriginal could offend some, but the majority seem to be fine with it. Those that feel strongly about being identified by their tribe would surely let you know. Sometimes you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t, you can never please everyone. So please try not to make it more difficult to relate to aboriginal Australians than it already is at times.
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Please read what I wrote Aboriginal Australian is fine aborigines is not. Since this Meryl Dorey is saying misinformed things on the sunshine coast it is best to try and use to preferred name or Aboriginal Australians or visa versa never aborigine or indigenous. I want my people to hear correct information and so many can be turned off by the racist language used here it is condescending and racist. To you it may not be important but I am aware how important it is.
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I agree with and respect what you are saying Nicole. I also dislike the term ATSI, Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders are not the same and should never be rolled into one.
I can also understand the dislike of the word Aborigine, as it has been used in the past with a lot of racial hatred behind it. I didn’t know that Indigenous was considered offensive though so thank you for taking the time to educate us.
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Faybian if you do choose to use the word Aboriginal or Aborigine, please use a capital letter. I know that this really does cause offence too, as no-one ever writes “australian” as you can see from your own comment! I know it is not something you have probably thought about, but I once read a very thought provoking article wriiten by an Aboriginal woman discussing this and ever since I have noticed it a lot!!!
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For large issues as important as this sometimes it is okay to refer to both it seems wrong but many like a distinction and recognition but always best to ask like when people pronounce a name. It can depend on the experience as to how some react and I want all people to take this as a serious matter. This Meryl can never get away with this. Not at a time when things are slowly healing. This is for all people who live on this land not playing on fear. I am aware language is a touchy one due to various reasons like the original reasons for names. It can be complicated this is why the ground work has in a way been done with local and community Australia Aboriginal Health in this area. This way things can be handled correctly. If high ups step in people can close up. This is why local level is required. This does not look good because it is a Non Kabi Kabi saying and doing this. It needs both fronts standing together or it looks like more division and people saying this is how it will be. Health is so important for all even those who are considered vulnerable. Meryl was smart or manipulative she used Tiga to speak
. If the Author of the article is reading maybe she is able to contact some of the Kabi Kabi people in health or some who work in community health. They will support and suggest what to do. This is what is needed a joint effort. Discussing and interviewing with a local elder will really help or just someone who is in the area who is Australian Aboriginal.
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Interesting comment, and I take your point. But MM has reported on many aspects of this debate (see the vax myth link I posted in comments earlier). If we don’t bring attention to these serious issues, who will? How will people know that it is going on?
I appreciate your concern, but we have no qualms about highlighting this situation. None at all.
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I do not think you understood what I wrote will try again. This article is full of loaded language. Many in the community will ignore this and sadly side with Meryl not because she is correct but due to her manipulation of discussing things with Tiga. He was a respected person in the community and Meryl has used him to enlarge division. Correct facts need to be dealt with here not emotions. This is very serious. This article could have consequences and not in the area that it is needed. It would have been more professional to have interviewed or had a Australian Aboriginal health person tackling this sensitive subject. There is some actually in the area of community health no idea why there were not contacted as some are not happy with what Dorey has been doing. Some only found out about this today or have been hearing things being passed on. Do you want to actually help or drag this out for a good story? Because it is not this is a serious health issue.
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Also I suggested a link with contacts for the region. Getting one lot of health professionals involved in this will greatly benefit all in the community, all Australians. They have not been contacted at all. Why because it looks like someone the author just wanted to have a story and get 15 minutes of fame, well this is young children’s lives here and little babies. I would not want to trust anything that could effect that. Dorey has been doing a similar thing with all people now she is targeting Australian Aboriginals. Just she uses anecdotal evidence not real information. Meryl Dorey is a lady who is no friend of any Australian let alone Australian Aboriginal.
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I think we both agree this is serious. Also, as far as I can tell, MM is the only media organisation that has so far brought attention to this specific event. This was an article submitted to MM and we ran it, better that people know than not. We will continue to pursue this subject across a range of posts. Including one I am working on currently which I suspect might satisfy your desire for a full and comprehensive look at the information being bandied around in this debate. Stay tuned.
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I read the transcript and it is incredibly manipulative. I don’t know what the radio/media situation is like to counter that though?
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I agree Nicole,
This article made me exceptionally angry. I understand the intention of MM is good – but it is extremely condescending and insulting on the part of the author to suggest that people in Australian Aboriginal communities are all unwitting passive victims ready to be further exploited by ‘white’ medicine and can’t move past their own distrust to understand what is now actually ‘for their own good’ – and also that the author is able to project so many crude and romanticised generalisations onto Tiga simply due to his Aboriginal heritage. Does Chrys know him?
This article would better have been best written by an Aboriginal Elder or in the least (as you have suggested) someone working in Aboriginal health – who stuck to the core of the issue touching on the sensitivities and vulnerabilities without the self-indulgent romanticisation seen here.
How absurd to claim support for the Aboriginal peoples’ issues and then write an article that doesn’t fundamentally support confidence in the autonomy and wisdom of the Elders and communities to be fully capable of being made aware of the issue and being given the leadership to respond to protect their people with whatever support structures are in place.
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Mabol, in the radio chat, Tiga actually talks about white man medicine and how crap it is. He’s clearly a subscriber to MD’s nuttery, and it’s basically an anti-vax/science echo chamber that’s been broadcast.
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Can anyone find a well-informed Aboriginal elder, or at least a senior member of the community, who has weighed the evidence and can declare the true stats authoritatively and convincingly?
If we can, I think that’s the best thing to do in response.
If we can’t… what an indictment on the state of education for Aboriginal people in Australia! Not sure a simple solution exists, but the fact remains that we – the nation of Australia, Aboriginal and white – can and should do better!
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Please contact the peak Aboriginal health body and ask what they are doing to protect Aboriginal children
http://www.naccho.org.au/
National Secretariat
NACCHO House
Level 2 & 3
3 Garema Place
Canberra City ACT 2601
PO Box 5120
Braddon ACT 2612
Australia
Ph: +61 (0)2 6248 0644
Fax: +61 (0)2 6248 0744
For further information on NACCHO contact:
admin@naccho.org.au
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It sounds like a good idea however it will not work this needs to be done on a ground level. I suggest contacting your local Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Health Service in your state or region. This will ensure things are done and not all talk.
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Nicole, you keep saying no-one has contacted ATSICHS. How do you know? In fact one of the *first* things I did was to contact ATSICHS – even before the Dorey interview went to air. I rang them *and* emailed them, asking them to call in and give another view point. I provided them with as much information as Dorey as I could.
One of the reasons I *didn’t* ring in during the show was because I was hoping someone from ATSICHS would, and I didn’t want to take their spot. I thought it was much better if someone from ATSICHS could speak rather than me – but either they didn’t call in, or they didn’t get through. It was not from the want of me trying!
Prior to the show, I also emailed the NIRS pleading with them not to give air time to Ms Dorey.
Not content to leave it there, I also contacted my own Indigenous friends over the weekend prior to the interview to see if I could find a sympathetic ear at NIRS. I spoke to an Indigenous leader but I was told, not unkindly, there was nothing that could be done to change Tiga Bayles mind and I was wasting my time.
I am not going to give out the names of my contacts. They will do what they can in their own quiet way and I will not breach their privacy and trust.
After the show, as you know, I rang Tiga himself and again, pleaded with him to reconsider his position.
My Indigenous friends are doing what they can to counter the harm done by Dorey in their own communities. Other supporters of Stop the AVN have passed on information to their Indigenous friends and contacts. In fact, some Stop the AVN supporters are Indigenous themselves.
What’s more, our network extends to doctors and nurses working in Indigenous communiities or communities with large populations of Indigenous people. They’ve been contacted too and they’re contacting elders within their various communities.
But we haven’t stopped there. Other avenues to get the word out are being pursued. Consider, the articles on MamaMia have alerted YOU to the problem and now YOU can do something within your own community.
I’m just one person, Nicole. I do what I can but I can’t personally contact every single Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community in Australia. Because I haven’t contacted anyone you know, doesn’t mean I haven’t done anything. I make contacts where I think I can get the word out to as many influential people as possible.
I’m a writer , a publicist and a networker. That’s what I do. I’m not a scientist – I have to leave the scientific refutations to those with expertise in that area.
Please don’t assume that just because all you can see here is my article that that is the extent of my efforts. I do care deeply and I am truly doing everything I can within my own area of expertise. I’m sorry if you want more, but I am genuinely giving this every thing I have. I have not, as you suggest, ignored the Indigenous community. I have done everything I possibly can to include them and get them involved.
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Great Idea Nichole
Can you please post the email you have sent to ATSICHS so we can copy it and use it for our emails.
I have already contacted several Aboriginal health authorities but would like to see what views you have sent to them.
So many people are all talk I am so glad there are people like Chrys out there who not only make meaningful statements but also take the time and make the effort to take action on issues like this.
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It is a shame how Meryl is essentially exploiting the more vulnerable communities in Australia to spread her anti-vaccination propaganda…. I know that her word has fallen mostly to deaf ears everywhere else in Australia…. but come on Meryl – use that brain you claim that you have!
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Maybe her brain’s busy being her qualification…
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Beautiful article Chrys, but it is heartbreaking that this woman is able to take advantage of cultural distrust of western medicine and the mainstream ‘white’ medical system to spread her lies and vitriol. When Aboriginal children, particularly in remote areas, are in such desperate need of effective and ongoing healthcare, the actions of this woman are all the more despicable.
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It does not surprise me that the out and out narcissist, Meryl Dorey, would stoop to this new low. For her it’s just another opportunity for self-aggrandisement. Notoriety is Ms Dorey’s raison d’etre; anti-vaccination demagogy is her ticket. She makes me feel sick. What she does makes vulnerable Australians sick.
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A beautiful and touching story covering issues that every Australian should know a lot more about. I learned far too little of Indigenous culture at school, we have a lot to make up for. Providing the best health information and services is one small step to making up for white mans actions.