A recent survey found more than two thirds of us research our medications on-line and half of us turn to “Dr Google” for diagnosis. But how do you know the information you are getting online is accurate? Basically, you don’t. In fact studies show if you search Google for “vaccination”, 60% of the results will not only be misleading but downright scary. In a time when vaccine-preventable diseases such as whooping cough and measles are in the news again, it’s critically important to know the facts about vaccination so that you can protect your kids and yourself.
So, let’s take a look at some of the common myths about vaccination and why they’re wrong.
Myth 1: Vaccines cause autism.
No doubt you’ve heard this myth – it’s been around for some time now. In a nutshell, there is no solid scientific evidence for a link between vaccines and autism. And believe me, science has been looking for well over 14 years. The theory that vaccines cause autism was first suggested by Andrew Wakefield in 1998. Since then, Wakefield’s paper has been discredited and withdrawn from The Lancet and Wakefield has lost his medical licence for showing “callous disregard” for children’s welfare.
Since 1998 there have been countless large and comprehensive studies looking for a link between vaccines and autism, but the evidence keeps coming up negative. The largest study was done in Denmark and covered all children born from January 1991 through December 1998. A total of 537,303 children of which eighty-two percent were vaccinated for MMR were examined and there was no association between vaccination and the development of autistic disorder.
Further, in August 2011, an exhaustive review of the scientific literature by the Institute of Medicine in the US concluded that overall “few health problems are caused by or clearly associated with vaccines”. And when I say “exhaustive review”, I mean 12,000 peer-reviewed articles, covering eight different vaccines were pored over by a committee of 18 experts in the largest review of adverse events associated with vaccines since 1994. It was a thorough and herculean effort concluding that there is no causal relationship between vaccines and autism.
Myth 2: Vaccines contain mercury
Mercury was removed from all routine childhood vaccines in Australia in the year 2000 (with the exception of one type of HepB vaccine which contains trace amounts) and it was never in the MMR vaccine. Prior to 2000, thimerosal, an organomercury compound, was used in the manufacturing process of vaccines as a preservative. The process left only trace amounts in the finished product – you ingest more mercury when you eat a can of tuna than you would ever get from a vaccine. Also there are two types of mercury – methyl mercury is the scary environmental toxin that “bioaccumulates” in your body, and ethyl mercury the type found in thimerosal, which does not bioaccumulate.
If thimerosal was implicated in autism, you would expect a significant drop in cases after its removal. Instead the opposite is true – autism rates continue to rise.
Myth 3: Vaccines contain toxic ingredients

Jenny McCarthy whose son was diagnosed with autism led the charge against vaccinations claiming there was a link between the condition and immunisations.
Look anywhere on the Internet and you’ll find long scary looking lists of chemicals that anti-vaccine advocates claim are present in vaccines. Things such as anti-freeze, formaldehyde, aluminium phosphate, human fetal tissue, monkey kidney and lung cells, and most famously mercury. They also claim vaccines cause diseases such as AIDS, asthma, autism, cancers, diabetes, leukemia, lupus, SIDS, the list goes on. Many of these claims are quite simply untrue. The rest, without exception, misrepresent the facts.
For example, some viruses are grown on cell lines in the laboratory that were obtained from aborted fetal tissue many years ago. When a virus is grown on cells like these, it is extensively purified and many steps later, prepared into a vaccine. To say there are aborted human fetus cells in the vaccine is a bit like saying there is dirt in apples since they were once grown on a tree that grew in dirt. It’s misleading, scaremongering and simply not true. As for formaldehyde, there are trace amounts of formaldehyde in vaccines but much less than what your body naturally produces everyday.
Some vaccines do contain tiny amounts of metals like aluminium which have been used for over 80 years to increase the effectiveness of the vaccine. These are known as “adjuvants” and work like a booster to kick start the immune system into making antibodies. But just as the “dose makes the poison”, the concentrations of these metals are so low as to not be harmful to the body. Similarly, small doses of paracetamol cure pain but large doses have been known to cause liver failure.
Myth 4: Vaccines have never been tested.
All vaccines currently available in Australia must pass stringent safety testing before being approved for use by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), which is our government body responsible for regulating pharmaceuticals. Multiple clinical trials for safety and effectiveness are also performed as part of the development process (which takes anywhere between 10 to 15 years, and many millions of dollars) and safety monitoring continues for as long as the vaccine is in use.
For example with the polio vaccine, two million kids were involved in the field trial which was conducted in the US in 1954. More recently, the safety of the new cervical cancer vaccines was studied in large-scale clinical trials involving more than 50,000 people before being licensed for use. Safety continues to be monitored after 35 million doses with the majority of side effects being fever, headache and other minor ailments.
Like any medical procedure there are risks associated with the use of vaccines. This was brought to light in 2010 when dozens of kids suffered high temperatures and convulsions following administration of the flu vaccine. The vaccine was immediately withdrawn from use and the government commenced an investigation.
When people claim that vaccines have “never been tested” they usually mean that they have not undergone randomized placebo controlled trials (RCTs). To do an RCT of a vaccine you would need to take two groups of kids, give one group the vaccine, and the other a placebo, then expose both groups to the disease to see which ones survive. Raise your hand if you can see the problem here…
Not only would such an experiment be unethical, it’s unnecessary. We have extensive evidence demonstrating the effectiveness of vaccines; the eradication of smallpox and the near-eradication of polio from the world are just two examples.
Myth 5: Vaccines don’t work because children who are vaccinated can still get the disease.
No vaccine is 100% effective, and since everybody’s physiology is different, not everyone will develop immunity to the same degree; a vaccine is not a force field. But while you can still breathe in a virus or pick up bacteria off a door handle, the seriousness of the disease will be significantly reduced if you have been vaccinated. In the case of pertussis or whooping cough, severe complications such as seizures and pneumonia occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and one in every 200 babies who contract the disease will die.
Also, vaccine-induced and naturally acquired immunity fades over time. Notably, immunity from the whooping cough is not lifelong and infected adults, including child care workers and early years professionals, may be passing the infection on to children. This is why it is so important to get boosters if you are around young kids – especially those who are too young to be vaccinated. If you’re a parent make sure you, the grandparents, and other relatives and friends have boosters before they get to meet baby. Talk to your GP for advice on pertussis boosters (which are free until June 2012 in Victoria).
Myth 6: Improved living standards, not vaccination have reduced disease.
The three most significant factors in the reduction of infectious disease have been clean water, sewerage systems, and vaccination. But even in isolation, vaccination has made a huge dent in reducing rates of disease. Following the introduction of the national meningococcal C immunisation program in January 2003, the number of cases decreased by 39% while numbers of people admitted to hospital with the disease was down by 47%. When the Haemophilus influenzae type B (Hib) vaccination was introduced into Australia in 1992 there was a 94% reduction in cases in children under the age of five (the most frequent illnesses caused by Hib are meningitis, septicemia and pneumonia). Yet living conditions in Australia have changed only marginally since 1992 or 2003. Vaccines have also significantly reduced suffering from the complications of infectious disease. Whilst mortality from polio was less than twenty percent, complications such as paralysis, skeletal deformities, and prolonged immobility during confinement in an iron lung caused significant suffering, all of which were eliminated by widespread vaccination.
Myth 7: Infectious diseases are not serious; children are meant to get them.
Just because they’re called “childhood diseases” doesn’t mean it’s okay for kids to get them and neither are they necessarily benign. Let’s take a look at whooping cough as an example, since Australia has been the grips of an epidemic for several years now.
Whooping cough is much more than “just a bad cough”. Kids often turn blue from lack of oxygen during coughing fits, they may vomit after severe attacks, and even fracture ribs. There is no cure for whooping cough – antibiotics are given to help stop the transmission to others – you just have to hope your immune system can fight it. Severe complications such as pneumonia and brain damage occur almost exclusively in unvaccinated people and in babies under 6 months of age the symptoms can be severe or life threatening. Whooping cough is also known as the 100-day cough making it a chronic and potentially fatal disease.
If you still think infectious diseases are harmless, wander through your local cemetery one day and note how many children died from diseases that we no longer see in society today – stamped out largely due to mass vaccination. Some of us are old enough to remember the images of children in iron lungs and calipers during the scourge of polio, which was wiped out by vaccination.
Myth 8: Vaccines cause or spread the diseases they are supposed to prevent.
Experiencing a slight temperature and/or a sore arm after getting a vaccine is actually a good thing. While some people misinterpret this as “getting the flu after the flu vaccine” it simply indicates that your immune system is responding. Vaccines work by priming your immune system with a part of the disease, usually inactivated particles or a fraction of the organism, so that it can make antibodies. This means next time you come across the disease in the environment your body is ready with an arsenal of antibodies to attack it before it can make you really sick.
Vaccines are not 100% safe – no medical intervention is without risk – and mistakes do happen. In the 1950s in America there was a spate of cases of polio caused by the vaccine, but this was due to a mistake in the manufacturing process and was quickly corrected. Regulations, monitoring and quality control has greatly increased since that time, meaning incidents such as this are very unlikely to be repeated. The risks associated with the disease greatly outweigh the risk from a vaccine.
Myth 9: My child’s immune system will be overwhelmed.
Some parents worry that vaccines weaken or overwhelm the immune system, particularly when given to babies or when multiple vaccines are given at the same time. Children are exposed to many foreign particles on a daily basis through activities such as routine eating, drinking and playing and vaccines contain only a tiny number in comparison to what children encounter every day in their environment. The amount of immune challenges that children fight every day (2,000 — 6,000) is significantly greater than the number of antigens in any combination of vaccines (about 150 for the entire vaccination schedule).
More information: This is certainly not an exhaustive list of myths surrounding vaccination. If you’d like to know more, the following sources contain accurate and easy to read information for parents on vaccination including myths, misconceptions and information about the diseases.
Chain of Protection is an initiative of The National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance (NCIRS) which contains lots of vaccine information, videos and more.
The NCIRS also produce the MMR Decision Aid which is a step-by-step guide to the MMR.
A great general resource for parents wanting to know more about vaccination can be found in the Australian Government publication; Understanding Childhood Immunisation Booklet (highly recommended)
General questions about vaccination can be found on the Australian Governments website; Frequently asked Questions About Immunisation
For more detailed information about vaccines, with references to scientific studies, see the Australian Government’s Handbook; Immunisation Myths and Realities, Responding to Arguments about Immunisation
A complete schedule of the current vaccinations required under the National Immunisation Program can be found here.
Please note: The AVN has flooded the comments section below with pseudo-science and inflated numbers. We have ourselves noticed many people using the same IP address and now an AVN supporter has admitted to posting at least 30 times from just one user, using fake IP addressed. So you’re aware of the tactics used.
If you’re after a more light hearted parody of the refusal to acknowledge real science, check out this video:
So, any questions?
Dr. Rachael Dunlop is a medical researcher, science communicator and campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in the anti-vaccination movement and alternative medicine. Rachael started life as a fine artist and graphic designer but was seduced by the secret world of virus and tropical diseases and was lured to university to study science. After 8 years of study in both Adelaide and Sydney, she surfaced with a PhD and an interest in diseases associated with ageing. Now working in medical research she is currently focused on the environmental triggers for motor neuron disease with a special interest in toxins found in blue green algae. Rachael is a vice president of the Australian Skeptics and a contributor to their magazine and website. She is member of the Mystery Investigators, a science show for kids that uses science to explain the strange and unusual such as UFOs and ghosts. Rachael is a reporter for The Skeptic Zone Podcast which reaches over 7000 listeners worldwide every week. She blogs at the Skeptics Book of PoohPooh and tweets at Dr Rachie. Rachael was the winner of the 2010 Shorty Award for Health and enjoys combining her love of science and art to communicate science to the public.











Comments
1,796 Comments so far
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and here you with no references, telling us to be careful about what information we take on board!! hilarious! and very scientific…
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You don’t need references when your views concur with scientific consensus. The onus is on those who disagree to provide evidence for their opposing viewpoint.
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When my daughter was a baby and getting her first vaccination needles i was distraught. I was worried i was doing the right thing and that she was getting a needle and would be in pain. Anyway, i was crying along with my daughter (ahhh those hormones) and an old lady in the waiting room came up to me and put her arms around me and gave me a cuddle. She said, “you are doing the right thing, i wish we had these when i was younger and my brother might still be alive today”. Well this made me cry more but i never forgot what she said. I was still upset the next time my daughter got her needles (more for the thought they were jabbing my little baby), but i knew i was doing the right thing.
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I never had a second thought about immunising my children.
But then I grew up watching my mother suffer and suffer and suffer from the effects of childhood polio.
Did I mention she’s still in pain at 65?
I’ll put my faith – and the health of my children – in the knowledge of scientists thanks.
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So, this Dr Wakefield and his research have been discredited?
So was Dr William McBride and his research.
Any currently pregnant women out there want to pop a nice little thalidomide tablet to cure their morning sickness?
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No, but thalidomide is now used as therapy for myeloma patients – isn’t it wonderful how science continually corrects its views based on legitmate evidence!!
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It is!! I applaud science for the many advances it has made and the beneficial difference it has made to all our lives – none more so than medical science. However, science is not infallible and nothing should replace the individual becoming informed and arriving at a decision for themselves – based on their own knowledge and beliefs. And the rest of us have to live with that. And although many might dismiss anecdotal evidence, some of us are not prepared to when it correlates with personal experience in the absence of other reasonable explanations. And when science ‘corrects its views’ it usually does so on the back of overwhelming anecdotal evidence. Some just aren’t prepared to wait for science to catch up. And good for them!!
Personally, the jury is still out for me when it comes to this whole vaccination issue. And I’m not prepared to dismiss either side of the debate out-of-hand.
I”m glad thalidomide is useful somewhere for something. That doesn’t negate the fact that MicBride and his research were discredited just as Wakefield’s has been. Who knows, maybe one day Wakefield’s research will turn out to be true too – just as McBrides’ untilmately was.
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“And when science ‘corrects its views’ it usually does so on the back of overwhelming anecdotal evidence.”
Really ? So why hasn’t its views on vaccination been “corrected” yet?
Because science changing its view is not only based on the anecdotal evidence – it is only going to if the anecdotes lead to studies that prove a legitimate link. And there have already been thousands upon thousands of such studies and all show that there are just no known legitimate links to anything (ingredients/schedule of vaccines etc) in vaccines AT ALL causing autism.
You are the one flying the face of overwhelming scientific consensus deriding the autism/vaccine link, based on beliefs gleaned from flawed information-gathering skills, and I’m assuming you will not change your dogma, even though you can show NOTHING to back up the claim other than the feeling you get in your bones.
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Gees Jane DJ, take a chill pill. Then you need to vastly improve your comprehension skills.
I never ONCE said, or even suggested, that scientific evidence is changed by anecdotal evidence ALONE! I said that, in the instance of ‘corrections’ the scientific evidence USUALLY comes on the back of anecdotal evidence. If anecdotal evidence as to the deleterious effects of any particular medicine was not given any consideration (or no such anecdotal evidence existed) then the double blind, placebo controlled, peer reviewed, journal published studies would not get done post wide release of said medicine because there’d be no reason. You do get that, right? And really? ‘Thousands upon thousands of such studies’? Are you sure? Have you read them? Have you even sighted a bibliography of them all?
I’m sorry but DOGMA and I just do not go together – in any instance! What I have is a personal opinion. Did you not read the bit where I said that for me personally the jury was still out? Or, once again, did you just lack sufficient comprehension skills to understand it? No dogma. I’m not associated with, nor a member of, any group/movement/association. Just an educated *individual* with an opinion. It is ok if I have an opinion which differs from yours, isn’t it? I’m not out to convince anyone of anything when it comes to vaccinations or anything else. I don’t care what other people do. Particularly if they have informed themselves and are satisfied and confident that what they’re doing is the best course of action to take. More power to them! The only people here displaying any adherence to a strict dogma is YOUR side of the debate! You might care to look the word up in a dictionary while you’re working on your comprehension skills. And your insane comment about “the feeling you get in your bones” is beneath contempt! Just because someone does not agree with you or anyone else OR even with everyone else, DOES NOT make them stupid. Did you know that all the eminent scholars of the day disagreed with Galileo? Even his own father disagreed with him and kicked him out of home. Was Galileo ultimately proved correct? Thank goodness for ‘disagreeable’ minds like his.
Now, just to piss you right off, I’m off to hospital so my well regarded surgeon can use the well honed skills medical science afforded him, to operate upon me. After which time I will be consulting with another eminent specialist, who is also a professor of medicine at one of the country’s top five universities, to develop a life-long drug regime. Thankfully (and I truly do thank my lucky stars every day for this specialist) he doesn’t agree with the mainstream (fancy that?) – which is the majority of the mediocre specialist in his field. And I will get the drug regime of my choice – which anecdotal evidence and number of small studies points to the efficacy of (and this specialist has personally seen the efficacy of) and yet the mainstream continue to ignore. If I hadn’t done my own research and come to my own conclusions I would have accepted what the first specialist I consulted told me – and potentially had a life of feeling miserable health wise. Damn, I’m glad, so, so glad I question everything and do my own research instead of simply accepting what I’m told by the first ‘expert’ I encounter. Sometimes it pays not to be a ‘sheeple’. But hey, if you want to be one, who am I to argue?
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I have no problem with whatever pioneering new treatment regime you are about to embark on – maybe your expert professor falls into the Galileo/Pasteur/Darwin camp of revolutionary new theories. Regardless, it still must have either some basic science behind it to suggest prior plausibility or really compelling clinical evidence that suggests it might have an effect. You want to invoke the maverick Galileo gambit – well, lets hope your professor’s observations and ideas stand up to as much repeated observation and scientific experimentation by many scientists in many places over many years as Galileo’s has. The weight of data supporting his ideas was so overwhelming that eventually even the biggest skeptics could no longer stand.
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Mia would like to live back in those days before the internet, where media lies could be unchallenged and media people like herself could dictate as they wished…..
If any children are harmed by vaccinations due to her dangerously shallow views, where will she be?
At work on her next newspaper column, not giving a damn.
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I have just read Mia Freedman’s piece in the Sunday Mail of March 18th,and quite frankly,I was “blown away”by the biased,unbalanced naivety contained therein.Thank you Kevin,for your comments which I absolutely agree with.As a person who has been vaccine-damaged as a child,and contracted monkey-virus related bone cancer fron contamianted polio vaccines,I think that I am well qualified to comment!The information in the article could have been taken entirely from the vaccine manufacturer pamphlets available at doctors’ surgeries,and council offices!?The other impression I got was that Ms Freedman is trying to say that science is infallible??Therefore there should be no debate?How many pharmaceutical drugs and medical procedures have been withdrawn after they caused havoc in humans,even though the “science”previously stated that these were safe and effective?I also would question the credibility of the TGA which apparently is supposed to be there to “protect”us but in fact allows hazardous products banned overseas,to still be sold in Australia?Whose interests are they protecting?Is Ms Freedman serious when she states that knowledge can be dangerous??Oh please,what rock has she been hiding under?When it comes to products that make billions of dollars for vested interests,there are always two sides regarding safety and efficacy.As far as I am aware the Australian Vaccination Network’s members include a host of different health professionals (are they civilians?!)and they are NOT anti-vaccination.They are “pro informed choice”!?Most people are not making an informed choice on vaccination simply because the information available is mostly put out by vested interests,including GP’s who stand to receive a “bounty”for every injection they administer!In respect to “the lovely guy”who decided with his wife not to vaccinate,my sister works with “a lovely guy”whose wife is a nurse and they decided to vaccinate.Their baby screamed all night,had vomiting and diarrhoea,and underwent a marked personality change after the first lot of jabs.Of course,their doctor said this “meltdown”had nothing to do with the vaccinations!This seriously disturbed me because it appears that hardly any adverse reactions are being reported because “it is not a good look”for GP’s to do this!?How many people have heard that the Gates’ Foundation has allegedly had discussions on population control using vaccines?!Some people might think this is a good thing but one has to question the ethics of such an action?!Remember the furore over aboriginal girls being injected with contraceptives!?What is wrong with having a full and frank discussion with one’s GP about one’s health problems?Or is only ten minutes allowable???GP’s are not God ; they make mistakes and they don’t know everything!The “Drug Bible”on their desk seems to be the first information they consult!?I have researched extensively what happened to Dr Andrew Wakefield and there is no doubt in my mind that he was “set up”and character assassinated because he discovered something that was a disaster for vaccine manufacturers and a potential multi-billion dollar/pound lawsuit waiting to hit governments all around the planet?!There have been at least two other studies which have discovered the same vaccine-strain measles virus/autism link,but most media are ignoring this information!I believe that Dr Wakefield is currently involved in legal proceedings to clear his name.Everyone has the right to choose whatever method of healthcare they want to stay well.If that includes avoiding toxic injections full of chemicals and viruses delivered directly into the bloodstream,then so be it.Unvaccinated people are not disease-carrying pariahs like some would have us believe,but usually very healthy people who rarely see a doctor.There lies the problem!!There is much more revenue to be made from sickness than wellness.Also sickness,sadly,employs millions of people!I can fully understand parents whose children have suffered negative reactions to vaccines,defending vaccines to the “nth”degree,because who would want to admit to themselves that they had unwittingly allowed their child to be hurt like this?Finally,I would like to ask Ms Freedman why she thinks there are many doctors who refuse to vaccinate their children,themselves or anyone else?!
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Re : ” contamianted polio vaccines”
Millions of people received those vaccines – there must be evidence of a huge spike in overall cancer occurrences and death rates and a decrease in life expectancy for that time period. As someone convinced they have been “vaccine-damaged as a child,and contracted monkey-virus related bone cancer fron contamianted polio vaccines” you must have based this assumption on some hard evidence – do you have it at hand ?
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Hi Jane DJ: Here is my response.I have been tested for monkey viruses and have evidence of Epstein-Barre and Cytomegalo in my body.No one in Australia will test me for Simian Virus 40,the worst cancer-causing one.(WHY?)These viruses are now rampant in humans,due to certain batches of Salk and Sabin polio vaccines being contaminated,from African Green and Rhesus monkey kidneys,on which the vaccines were cultured.I would refer you to a 380 page research expose called “The Virus and the Vaccine”(ISBN:0-312-27872-1)by Deb Bookchin and Jim Schumacher(lawyer and investigative journalist).Their expose was covered by “Four Corners”about 15 years ago.Once you have read this book,you will lose all faith in vested interests and the lengths they will go to,to cover up “disasters”,especially when it comes to vaccines.Why do you think there is no vaccine damage compensation scheme in Australia?Getting back to osteosarcoma bone,brain and lung cancers which are now killing people in their 50′s,two people I know have died of the lung cancer and they never smoked.The cancer showed up on scans like a mass of tiny fairy lights throughout their lungs,but of course,no doctor is prepared to make the link with monkey viruses-it would probably see them deregistered!?You just don’t rock the sacred cow vaccine boat!These virulent viruses have been passed from parents to children,and I recall a few years ago,a baby died of a brain tumour,which for some reason was analysed.There was Simian Virus 40 in the tumour.I know that polio was a “hot potato”in the 1950′s but think about this-thousands of people didn’t get it,and this was pre-vaccine!I firmly believe that a strong,well nurtured immune system can fight anything.Any injection plummets the immune system,enough said!
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So why don’t you bite the bullet, and may to have the test yourself?
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Sorry JaneDJ,but have you read the 390 page meticulously researched “The Virus and the Vaccine”?There is a massive industry-led cover-up on this issue so I would treat what you have sourced with a grain of salt!The “inadequate evidence”is a total lie mainly because doctors know it’s not worth their careers to make the link!Read the book and ask yourself,why won’t anyone test for SV40 in Australia?
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The recent studies that I’ve sourced indicate no such link with human cancer and SV40.
http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/24/26/4356.long
Is There a Role for SV40 in Human Cancer?
“Although many people may have been exposed to SV40 by polio vaccination, there is inadequate evidence to support widespread SV40 infection in the population, increased tumor incidence in those individuals who received contaminated vaccine, or a direct role for SV40 in human cancer.”
JCO September 10, 2006 vol. 24 no. 26 4356-4365
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Wow, what a rude reply. I can’t believe your use of scare quotes! I don’t care what your opinion on the issue is. Is it ever okay to be so offensive? It’s not even directed at me and I’m offended!
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To all the idiots on here banging on about Herd Immunity I want to make an important point – It doesn’t exist for vaccination unless immunity is guaranteed!
Herd immunity is a solid principle in maths (statistics). It suggests that if you immunise 95% of a population the chance of the other 5% meeting to pass on a disease is slim. If you immunise 99% it is nearly impossible because the 1% won’t meet. That’s all good.
The problem is that vaccinations are not viewed as IMMUNISATIONS anymore. Therefore even the AMA accept that vaccinated children/adults can carry/host and therefore pass on a disease. For example, Whooping cough vaccination is only deemed about 80% effective. Therefore it doesn’t matter if 100% of the population is ‘vaccinated’ againt whooping cough – one in every five people can catch the disease and even the other 4 of 5 can pass it on as hosts. So Herd immunity is impossible and every unvaccinated child is no more danger to your own child that a vaccinated child. It is the greatest crock ever peddled to an uneducated public ever. If immunisation is complete and a child cannot contract nor pass on a disease then it IS achievable but no doctor will claim that in their wildest dreams. HERD IMMUNITY is rubbish peddled by a desperate mob.
For those of you who say what about Smallpox – eradicated by the WHO in the 70′s. Have a read of Monkeypox ,only ‘identified’ in 1970, killing thousands, and for some small reason the smallpox vaccince is 85% effective against it. A bit like Kentucky Fried Chicken being unavailable nowdays – gosh we all miss it but sometimes KFC reminds us of the same thing!
Lastly, two questions. How come the WHO failed in the bid to eradicate Malaria if they can ‘eradicate’ smallpox.
Secondly, why doesn’t anyone get Bubonic Plague now. No vaccination for a disease that killed half of Europe, but may have just gone on the wane coz of sanitation, health etc…
The immunsation debate is full of those who knew, and those who passionately argue the opposite way because they know they made a major eror they do NOT want to concede.
And idiots like Mia should NOT be alowed to comment on something they concede they have no idea about. Anyone who uses her websites for advice is so severely behind the eight-ball that they best get a life coach coz they’re that sort of Mummy!
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http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/#eradicationworldwide
“The emergence of drug resistance, widespread resistance to available insecticides, wars and massive population movements, difficulties in obtaining sustained funding from donor countries, and lack of community participation made the long-term maintenance of the effort untenable.”
Because malaria doesn’t kill rich white people, that’s the main reason it hasn’t been eliminated. no one wants to fund it if it doesn’t affect them.
Monkeypox is part of the orthopoxvirus genus, the reason the smallpox vaccine is partially effective is due to epitope similarities between the two. I would explain that using smaller words for you, but you are so closed minded you wouldn’t listen.
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Well done Rob. Excuse the Malaria failure, suggesting a conspiracy theory from what you otherwise suggest is achievable. Don’t mention bubonic plague or where it’s gone and why but most importantly, say NOTHING about my comments on Herd ‘immunity.’ Why is my chid a danger to yours? The main point of my post was to challenge the rubbish of Herd immunity.
I never even argue the possible side effects of vaccinations. There is enough suggestion there for this to warrant serious investigation. However, my reason for not vaccinating is purely general effectiveness. It is admitted that even sucessfully vaccinated children can catch diseases, but the usual line is that it limits the severity. If that is really the case, how easy would it be for the AMA to survey all the ‘acute’ cases of hospitalized kids form whooping cough, for example. If vaccinations work then we’ll find all those kids of bad parents in hospital beds around the country AND you’ll have an irrefuteable statistic to back up your claims. Problem is, those stats aren’t collated because I think the results would not support the vaccinators.
And why, if it’s been eradicated for 35 years, do we even produce a smallpox vaccination now? Seems like a big waste of time and money to me.
And as for your big words gag – I’ve kept my points concise and relevant to the topic. If you wish to argue them, address them without shooting the messenger. It’s lazy, uninspired, and suggests an avoidance of preparation. Maybe even desperation.
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You are all crackers! These responses have turned into a hyped-up version of ‘Lord of the flies’. Why is this the ONLY subject related to parenting that turns friends into enemies? Do what you want, people!
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To Mia, beware th halo effect….oh and flawed research. The biggest thing you have overlooked is the GPs meant to be reporting side effects REFUSE to document them. Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to have correct data on how safe it is. Not sure whether you were writing this article because you are passionate about the topic or wanted to be sensationalist. Either way it was a poorly written, biased view of an interesting health topic.
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Surveillance for adverse events following immunisation is an integral part of a national vaccination program.
Under the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995, all WA medical officers are required to report any adverse events of concern to the Department of Health, providing a full description of the reaction to the vaccine (adverse event).
The statutory requirement to notify adverse events after immunisation is specified in Regulation 4 of the Health (Notification of Adverse Event After Immunisation) Regulations 1995.
This enables the Department of Health to identify new and unexpected AEFI and respond accordingly.
Any serious or unexpected adverse reaction to a vaccine should be reported to the Department of Health using the Western Australian Vaccination Safety Surveillance (WAVSS) system:
WAVSS will automatically report all significant and unexpected adverse events following immunisation to the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA).
The reports are monitored and the relevant state or territory department of health is alerted if there is any concern which requires further follow up at a local level.
So if you have evidence of adverse events of concern not being reported, you should be alerting the authorities, Dave, not whining about it here.
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Jane, you rely on a lot of good-faith self governance. You’ll never convince an anti-vaxxer that the GP’s are actually doing this regularly. What is know is that in the litigious U.S.A there have been billions of dollars paid out out for adverse reactions.I know of a lot of other ‘laws’ that aren’t adhered to. In fact, the only reason a law is passed in the first place is becauseof a need. If the GP’s were vigilant and suspicious we would never have needed these laws to begin with.
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BILLIONS of dollars??? What is known is that that figure was made up by an antivaxxer, and not a very clever one.
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Anybody who is still uncertain about whether to vaccinate or not should watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afm3vjn0PuQ
presented by someone who now has a PhD in microbiology and immunology. Try to stick with it for the whole 40 minutes. It takes far longer to make a person understand the science behind something than to misinform them, especially if you make them fearful (extremely easy when kids are involved). Most people, when you try to explain the science to them just “glaze over” because it’s not interesting enough and they don’t have the academic background to fully comprehend it. Though they’re perfectly happy to absorb all the misinformed fear mongering you can give them.
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I do like the presentation and has a lot of useful information in it but they still are not convincing me to fill me kids with these toxins maybe when my kids are older and I can be sure the toxins won’t affect them they will be vaccinated. But all studies of how safe vaccines are have mostly been on adults but yet they are forced on babies.
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Hi Mia. I’m generally a big fan of this website, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable with this article.
First of all, I think google can be a very effective research tool if you know how to use it properly (i.e. if it’s used to lead you to reputable websites). I know there is a lot of crap out there but peer reviewed articles can also be located using google.
Second, science really isn’t infallible. I’m a big fan of science, but my favourite thing about it is that it allows for theories to be proven and disproven, and that the “facts” are fluid, changing as our knowledge of the world around us expands.
I don’t personally know anything about the connection between immunisation and autism, but I would want to have a very good understanding of the original published article and the motivations of those who spoke against it before making any judgement. Scientists are people, and the world of scientific research is subject to emotional and (and as many have pointed out) financial factors, and there appear to be scientists on both sides of this.
Throughout the history of medical science, there are horror stories about patients being mistreated because doctors simply didn’t have a full understanding of what they were prescribing. As someone with M.E. I’ve had first hand experience of this.
There are a lot of diseases that are considered to be “first world” diseases. Does immunisation play a part? I have no idea. But I don’t think a lot of effort has yet gone in to proving that it doesn’t. The benefits of immunisation are obvious, and I certainly won’t argue against them, but they do have side effects that are not well understood.
As someone with a condition which, according to current medical science, may or may not be an immune disorder, may or may not be triggered by stimulation of the immune system and may or may not be genetic in nature … well you can see how there might be a dilemma there when it comes to immunisation of any potential kids.
Maybe I would feel better if knew there was research being done to identify who was at risk of side effects, so we could immunise the majority without doing harm to vulnerable people. I suspect this would be a risky career path for researchers to go down though, considering the profit being made from from this industry.
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Very well said!
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When formaldehyde is formed in the body that is a natural occurrence but when it is man made that is a different story. Formaldehyde is highly toxic to all animals, regardless of method of intake. Ingestion of as little as 30 mL (1 oz.) of a solution containing 37% formaldehyde has been reported to cause death in an adult human.[29] Water solution of formaldehyde is very corrosive and its ingestion can cause severe injury to upper gastrointestinal tract.
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37% of 30mL is 11.1 mL. A vaccine contains less than one mL. in most cases less than half a mL. Do the maths. This argument has no logical scientific basis and proves nothing about the safety of vaccines.
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Really no valid argument you say……well if that is calculated for an adult male how much would you suppose would be toxic to a baby? Often times babies are getting up to 3 vaccines at a time….and 30 some by the time they are 2 years old and you are telling me that is not going to affect their bodies. It is not about scientific bases it is common sense. You must be for population control or work for the government.
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Actually, vaccines contain only trace amounts of formaldehyde – thousandths of a mL. And formaldehyde in aqueous solution breaks down into formic acid and carbon monoxide very quickly.
Almost every tissue in the body has the ability to break down formaldehyde. It is usually converted to a non-toxic chemical called formate, which is excreted in the urine. Formaldehyde can also be converted to carbon dioxide and breathed out of the body. It can also be broken down so the body can use it to make larger molecules needed in your tissues, or it can attach to deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) or to protein in your body. Formaldehyde is not stored in fat.
Here’s some info including a list of household items that emit formaldehyde fumes hundreds of times more concentrated than the miniscule trace amounts in a vaccine.
http://www.eco-usa.net/toxics/chemicals/formaldehyde.shtml
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This article really sickens me it gives parents the impression that vaccines are 100% safe and there are no neurotoxins in vaccines. All one person has to do is go to this website that is right it is from the CDC and research the toxicity of each ingredient. Vaccines contain more toxic chemicals other than thimerosal such as aluminum hydroxide which affects the human brain no doubt plus some vaccines contain human diploid cells which come from aborted babies, formaldehyde, and many others I could list. But I am not going to inject my children with any of these toxins. I would think any other mother would not want to either if they knew the real facts. Do your research do not believe articles like these you have to get your own facts. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf
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Addressed in Myth no 8 and Myth no 3. Sigh.
Did you even read the article?
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Ok so I missed the part where is says vaccines are not 100% safe I must have skimmed over that part. But still I am going to look for alternative ways to protect my children against diseases I will not be putting any of those toxins into them knowing they are at risk to develop any other medical problems or possibly die. You maybe willing to take that gamble but I am not. I guess what the Center of Disease Control posts as ingredients in a vaccine are not true so they are lying did you even follow the link I posted? The link I posted I got directly from the CDC’s website which list these as ingredients: aluminum hydroxide, formaldehyde, and human diploid cells, and monkey kidneys what other real facts can you get besides what is in vaccines according to the CDC. If you want to believe the little amounts of aluminum and formaldehyde can’t hurt you or a baby that is crazy that is just like saying one drink of alcohol or one drag from a cigarette won’t hurt anyone and can’t cause anyone any damage in the long run. When one drink or one drag can lead to an addiction then one can get cancer or have liver failure. Really just little amounts won’t hurt my baby when they are suppose to get 30 some shots before they are 2 years old! As the number of vaccines increase the more Autism is on the rise but there is absolutely no connection! Really? I guess you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink it!
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http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/VaccinesFullStory/v1/VaccineReport-EN.pdf
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Hello guest. Natural News is a crock. It is EVERYTHING that the links Dr Rachel has provided are not.
”NaturalNews.com (formerly Newstarget) is a website founded and owned by self-proclaimed “health ranger” Mike Adams. The site promotes almost every sort of medical woo known, though it specializes in promoting vaccine hysteria and quack cancer medicine. The site also promotes conspiracy theories concerning modern medicine, geared to gain sympathy for alternative medicine.”
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if you choose to vaccinate your child, why would you be worried that other children arnt? …YOUR child is vaccinated! so if he or she comes in contact with a non vaccinated kid……so what…..i dont see the prob here, either vaccinate or dont, they might get whooping cough, they might convulse and have a bad reaction to anitgens, they might die in a car crash…….make your desiction and stop sprouting biased info for and against…its making it hard for the people who havent decided yet.
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Myth Number 5.
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You would change your tune if your child had life threatening asthma and allergies and couldnt have the immunisations, and their life was being put at risk by people like you who refuse to vaccinate their own (disease spreading) kids!
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Oh dear Mia. You wonder why people disassociate themselves themselves from the AVN when they make an “anti-vaxx” comment. Perhaps because you have belittled the AVN and publicly taken away any credit they may (or may not) have had. You have tried to simplify a complex issue and yes I wonder if you bought this topic up to increase ‘clicks’ on your page. I do expect nothing less from the Herald Sun but I wonder how you are not embarrassed to be associated with this very low grade piece of journalism.
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“why people disassociate themselves themselves from the AVN when they make an “anti-vaxx” comment.”
I should hope that they disassociate themselves from the AVN because they are embarrassed at the torrents of uninformed shite that spew from Meryl Dorey’s mouth.
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Yes, its like they are all wearing “Im with Stupid” T-shirts!!
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“Bought” this topic up? What did you pay for it?
Says it all, really. i.e. the poor language, not the suggestion of taking money.
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If they were so certain of their convictions then other people’s negative opinions wouldn’t really matter, would they?
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I believe licensed builders to be in the pocket of big steel companies who offer massive kickbacks as incentives to build houses and schools with steel frames. I did my research and found hundreds of articles on how to build houses using nothing but broomsticks, rocks and flour-and-water paste. Despite the ‘advice’ of every builder, engineer and architect (all in cahoots, no doubt), we trust our research and our gut and love our home. It hasn’t fallen down yet so clearly it’s safe! But – no one wants their kids to come over and play. I am outraged by by their ignorance and judgemental attitude.
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I LOVE it Kate!!!
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Well done! Read your article in the paper today. Thinks its a terrible shame that so many people are deciding not to immunise their kids, therefore putting mine at risk. I think it should be compulsory. So stupid that we live here in our glass house sprouting all these false facts and propaganda while people in the developing world would give anything to have the kind of preventable health care and opportunities that we have. All the women in Africa must think our life is wasted on us.
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At the end of the day pharmaceutical companies are businesses and like most businesses want to do the best for the companies interest and shareholders. But I fear the price we pay for these profits and not just limited to the vaccination debate.
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Do you actually have a statement to make, or just vague, unformed allegations?
And I don’t know about you, but in my experience, businesses usually find that injuring and killing their customers is BAD for business. It is in the interests of vaccine manufacturers to provide safe, effective and well-monitored products. Which they do.
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Oh Mia! What have you done?? Your article in today’s Herald Sun was way above your pay grade, both professionally and ethically!
Commenting on whether you can wear spots with stripes is one thing but telling people that they should blindly fully vaccinate their children without any thoughtful consideration, questioning or research is totally wrong. We’re not talking about a fashion faux pas here, we’re talking about a decision that could seriously affect the quality of your child’s life, for the rest of their life.
Your article also demonstrated two qualities I wouldn’t normally associate with yourself; ignorance and naivety.
In regards to ignorance, do you know how Australia’s vaccination schedule may compare to that of other countries, what is different, why is it different? Or how many vaccines a child born in the 1970′s received compared to a child born today? Why are there so many more? Or is every vaccine absolutely necessary? These are all valid questions however rather than encourage readers to make knowledge based decisions, you have suggested the complete opposite and that we should just put the health of our children in the hands of “experts” which brings me to the next point – naivety.
Tell me you don’t honestly think that GP’s aren’t influenced by Pharmaceutical companies, that scientists always get it right, that drug testing is fool proof? Every drug has side affects. It just depends if you are willing to take the risk. Sadly, it seems that you would spend more time deliberating about what to cook for dinner than what you may be injecting into your children. Tut tut Mia, stick to writing about what you know.
PS – You obviously have some issues with the AVN. For the record I don’t have any association with them.
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What makes you think that you’re qualified to “research”? Have you done your degree and further qualifications to enable you to carry out this research?
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Elise, I think you should stick to what you know as well. What are your qualifications by the way? Apart from googling stuff, how did you research? I think that’s the point Mia was making, googling doesn’t make you an expert. The vaccination issue above my “pay grade” as you put it and I tend to agree with Mia.
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Haha, I can’t speak for doctors but I don’t even get free pens from drug companies!
Of course things have side effects, in a perfect world we could create drugs without side effects. But it’s risks versus benefits. I will accept that i may get a sore arm, or some local swelling but jeez, I’d prefer that over contracting hepatitis b. (or whatever else im being vaccinated against)
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My Father is a GP, every coffee cup, pen & hand towel is from a pharma co, but I can guarantee you those odd freebees were not the reason he recommends full vaccination, but basic common sense!
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Jackie, why does he even accept them? All your admitting to is that daddy is open to graft. Now why would those drug companies spend tens of millions of dollars in free ‘advertsing’ if they didn’t think it had some effect? What you have to remember is that we use vaccinations in Australia that are banned in other western countries. Daddy should take a good hard look at himself and buy his own coffee cup and pens.
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Isn’t it funny how every anti-vaxxer always ends their comment by insisting they have no connection to the AVN?
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Definitely Mia, it’s laughable.
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Also “I’m not anti-vax, but I’m pro-choice and respect for people’s decisions, but here’s a whole bunch of stuff about why vaccinations are ebil”.
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I’m not sure what you are implying here. Is it that you don’t believe them/us? There are many non-vaccinating families who don’t support the AVN or have anything to do with them.
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Flying monkeys. That is all.
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No Mia, that’s not funny. My kids are unimmunsied as are many of my nieces and nephews. None of us have any association with the AVN. It’s just that we’re not the lazy arsed parents who believe everything they’re told or read. Go back to Dolly magazine!
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“Your pay grade”???? Really??? I think you’ve been watching too many American action/thriller movies.
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This article has reminded me to book my 4 year old in for her next lot of immunizations. Thanks guys!
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I have two children – one is partially vaccinated / delayed from the official schedule and the other will not be vaccinated until he is two.
FWIW Mia, I don’t agree with the insults being hurled at you over an opinion article. It is only your opinion and you are entitled to it. Nobody deserves abuse – and when it is from behind a computer screen it is cowardly.
However, I do understand why there is so much passion and debate here. It isn’t a straightfoward issue and there are many families who have suffered from simply following medical advice. Whilst we are not all doctors and scientists, it would be ignorant, some would say quite dangerous, to simply blindly follow advice without looking into it. Science continually progresses and changes its mind on what is ‘fact’and what is ‘theory’ based on new evidence and research. That’s the beauty of it.
I take it from your obviously pro-vax stance that you haven’t had direct experience of children who have been adversely affected by vaccines. That doesn’t mean that they don’t exist or that there are not legitimate, medical reasons for not vaccinating to the schedule or at all. My GP fully supports my decision and I have regular discussions with him about it. It is not a decision I take lightly and I by no means a nutter that believes that Drs or the Government are in a conspiracy with Big Pharma. I have no affiliation with the AVN and they have had no influence on my decision.
But…Vaccination is not without risk. For the majority of children that risk is tiny, for some children it is significant. Judging a families personal decision on what is best for their children is unfair unless you have first walked in their shoes.
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Ally, I think Mia is advocating the vaccination of all children so that those who cannot be vaccinated still have protection via herd immunity. Children like yours rely on others to be vaccinated so that they don’t contract these preventable diseases. I am certain that any level-headed person would support you in your decision (or need) to delay or cease the vaccination of your children. I know I do
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So well said Ally!
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A male friend of mine caught the mumps as an adolescent. He is now sterile and will never have children that are biologically his own. Sadly, his body (also known as his “pharmacy” apparently) wasn’t very effective at protecting him from infertility arising from mumps complications. Ask him – he would have risked a jab for the chance to have his own kids.
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Check out the high correlations between ongoing chiropractic care and increased immunity. Yes, there are PLENTY of scienctific, peer reviewed studies done on this! With an immune system functioning at its best, is there a need for vaccinations? I think we grossly under-estimate how wonderful our bodies are. We are our own best pharmacy.
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Chiro is great for your back but that’s it.
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Great for your back sometimes, maybe. I know a lawyer who works with many people suing chiros for doing long term damage to their spines.
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Didn’t they believe hard enough, Belle?
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Brilliant!
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Why then do it’s proponents talk so often about believing in it?
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chiropractic is not a religion, no need for “belief”.
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Then why do people who extol it’s virtues talk so often about believing in it?
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People can say what they like. The fact is that chiropractic is not a religion.
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I didn’t call it a religion. Like I said, people who talk it up talk about believing in it. Wouldn’t believing in it help it to help you?
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Personally, I find chiropractic care to be extremely effective yet have never claimed to “believe” in it. I cannot answer for other people, but fail to see how “believing” in it possibly make any difference.
People say all sorts of things, and even the most level-headed person can claim they have “good/bad vibes” or “gut feelings” about all sorts of things.
Let me answer this way, would believing in your antibiotics help them to work more effectively?
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There is much credible research to suggest that yes, believing antibiotics are working does indeed help their efficacy.
How is immunity conferred by chiro measured? Does a blood test tell you you are immune?
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Your comments are so lame – all this believing will make it so. I then believe I can fly….pity gravity is such a bitch!
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And people don’t sue medical doctors or pharmeutical companies?
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I know a lawyer who works with many people suing obstetricians, paediatricians, GP’s …shall I go on?
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what causes back pain? Your nervous system. What’s your nervous system mainly house in? Your spinal cord. What other bodily/cellular functions does your nervous system control? Everything. Without your nervous system you would die within seconds. Ever thought that maybe your chiropractor is accessing your nervous system through your spine?
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What causes backside and neck pain? Conspiracy theorists and sundry other nutcases spouting anti-vax and anti-commonsense baloney all over teh interwebs and calling it research and proof.
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again, another ridiculous comment.
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What’s so ridiculous about it? Why are you allowed to question but I’m not?
Thanks for proving my point in writing it though. So you know, I wrote it to show the ridiculous comment that precedes it “explaining” the nervous system.
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smarmy responses do not an intelligent debate make.
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Yet it’s cool for you to jump from post to post calling me an idiot for asking questions, or making little one line comments of no substance?
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I did not call you an idiot. That would be rude.
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Love your work, Kris2040
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Ditto that!!!
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Oh bless, I love how you simplify the complexity that is the nervous system. It reminds me of Dr Nick from the Simpsons “Dr. Nick: [singing] The kneebone’s connected to the… something. The something’s connected to the… red thing. The red thing’s connected to my wrist watch… Uh oh”
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sorry, did your extensive medical training teach you that the nervous system is not housed primarily in the spinal cord?
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Oops, should’ve read your spinal COLUMN, not spinal cord. Thanks for pointing that out
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Have you forgotten the brain?
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Haha, oh what a wonderful song! Yes, I know it’s a ridiculously simplistic version of our nervous system, but sometimes you just have to keep it simple.
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Care to link some, Ali?
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http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/news/immunityreferences.htm
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Ali, I wouldn’t bother trying to have a serious debate with this person.
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Hey ? – for someone who’s nick is a question mark, I’d have thought you wouldn’t have a problem with questions. Why do you?
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So, pointing out the obvious, those links are on the World Chiropractic Alliance website, most of them are links to osteopath or alternative medical journals (including articles published by the WCA itself), not all of them are peer reviewed, and the newest of them are 2004 – the oldest are from 1918. A simple list of citations to a somewhat motley collection of sources does not a scientific argument make – can you tell me which of the peer-reviewed articles (preferably from this century) conducted experimental research, and how they came to their findings from the data? I’m assuming at this point that you have actually read the findings yourself.
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You should check out some of the vaccination ‘peer reviewed’ articles and how old they are….and how the vaccinations trials were done on adults not babies. Tell me that’s good research……
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After much heavy consideration, i decided not to get my dog vaccinated, as i don’t want him to get autism. *Note the heavy sarcasm*
But seriously, I got my puppy dog vaccinated without a second thought, as i didn’t want him to get sick from something preventable. I’ll do the same for my future kids in a heartbeat.
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I couldnt get my dog into puppy school without vac records, mabye it should be the same with children…
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http://www.generationrescue.org/latest-news/jenny-mccarthy/mmr-doctor-exonerated-who-s-guilty-now/
Mia, maybe you should get your facts right about the “discredited” doctor, shame on you for writing that article, sit down and tell that story to my autistic son, though he won’t be able to question you because he is non verbal!!
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I don’t know if your post is the one that has Mia upset but I don’t read ‘abuse,’ I read ‘frustration’ at being called a nutty mother who instinctively knows that something isn’t right here and has done some research to find out what has happened to your child.
I don’t know this doctor and I’m not a ‘AVN sock puppet’ but I knwo there is more to this that meets the eye. There are sites that can be ‘googled’ (if that isn’t against the law) that shows families in the US have been paid hush money by the Government to stop agitating to autism link.
I repeat – my children are immunised.
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NOTE: we would usually delete an abusive comment like this but we have already deleted many far,far worse on this post so I thought I’d leave this one here so other readers can see the tone of the argument being levelled.
The AVN have been mobilising people on their Facebook page to come here and abuse me.
I thought others might be interested to know that.
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Great move, Mia. Part of me thinks you should just leave up all the vitriolic comments like this – I just checked out AVN for the first time (I’ve only recently moved to Australia and hadn’t heard of it before) and they seem to be at their most ineffective when they’re on the defensive. Let them spew their vitriol rather than argue the evidence – at least the readership here should be able to see through that.
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I know that I’m like a record with a scratch in it
BUT this sort of controversial post brings out all the sock puppets. Who knows how many multiple comments were made by each AVN member. If you changed the forum to people having to register with a viable e-mail address before they were able to comment you could cut across a lot of the crap that occurs on this forum.
When people are commenting under a multitude of names, none of the comments have any credibility. Just my two cents worth
This is the only forum that I’ve ever been associated with that allows “sock puppets”.
I’m not criticising you Mia after all this is your sandbox and we just play in it
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All that does is add extra steps, it does not cut out sock puppets. You can easily create email accounts without your name or identifiable details. I use such email accounts for online dating, to sign up to websites, for any organisation I think may spam me. How is MM to know if jane.guest@gmail is my real name or not? Also, no way are the majority of people going hand over their legitimate details to MM.
AVN would simply take a few extra minutes, make a few email accounts and post away. You would cut out people who can’t be bothered to do that but sock puppets still wouldn’t go away completely.
The system works fine as it is. It is only on a select few topics the sock puppets go crazy. I don’t think this is a forum. It is a comments section. I like seeing regular commenters but I also like that anyone can post under any name (one name per post) and have their comment taken as it reads, without any assumptions about the poster.
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When I was a mod on a big Sean Bean forum everytime someone applied for membership a box would come up and tell the mods whether or not there was already a member with that particular IP address.
If there was alread a member with that particular IP address not only did we not approve the person currently seeking membership but we also cancelled the membership of the person already registered with that IP address. We also banned that particular IP address from accessing the system again.
It was made very clear in the rules that ithere was a zero tolerance to sock puppets.
But yes I agree with what you are saying that there is no reason why someone can’t have multiple e-mail addresses and register multiple times, but I’m still sure that it will stop a lot of the sock puppets.
The mods on this forum already have access to the IP numbers of the people who comment because at times the mods have commented to certain people to stop commenting under multiple names. I haven’t noticed it on this post but I have in the past noticed it on other posts.
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Completely off topic: Sean Bean forum, woot! Game Of Thrones returns in two weeks! (Sadly, minus Ned)
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Game Of Thrones returns in two weeks!
You’ve got to love “Game of Thrones”, it’s like LOTR but completely lacking in any morals what so ever.
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Hey Catgirl,
Re: sock puppets
We can see when someone posts multiple comments under diff names from the same IP and we deal with that by cautioning then deleting.
But with proxy IPs (used by the AVN) it’s much harder to prove…
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But with proxy IPs (used by the AVN) it’s much harder to prove…
Nigh on impossible I’d say.:(
I read your little edit where they are bragging that one person made 30 different posts using 30 different fake IP addresses. If they had to register 30 different times with thirty different e-mail addressess and then authenticate their e-mail address it might just slow them down a little bit.
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Well if they’re dodging the ISP test, there are plenty more ways to spot AVN’ers vie their rhetoric :
– lack of specifics
– usually incorporates the term “vaccine injured”
– will incorporate the question “why are you so worried if your children are immunised?”
– will contain an anecdote about “My gp/paed/ doesn’t vaccinate”
– hate all doctors except Wakefield, Mercola et al
– will whine about posts discrediting their POV as being disrespectful
- their posts usually melt my irony meter
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- Claims of bullying and nastiness
- Claims that they “have the references but have to go and get them”
- Linking swathes of links, saying “SEEE???!!!?11″ – commonly known as Gish Galloping
- Claims of living in either a communist or Nazi state
- Telling people to “Question and Educate yourself” but crying foul when someone asks questions of them
- Inappropriate use of CAPITALS, exclamation marks, question marks.
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Hey Mia, First I’d like to say that while you might have got yourself a piece of paper from some Uni, it sure as hell hasn’t helped you write a decent article yet. Your disengeniousness in framing the basis for this article is probabley justified by the money you have been paid to write the trite piece in U this weekend.
I read with my jaw gaping that you find it incredible to believe that people increasingly feel they have the right and obligation to challenge supposed facts that are handed out willy-nilly by bought and paid for ïndependent” scientific “experts”. By those standards you would’ve fallen into the flat earth brigade a few hundred years ago…….
Oh, and by the way try telling the parents or mother of a child born with profound disabilities caused Directly by the mother taking Thalidimade under the direct prescription of a medical “expert” to counter the effects of morning sickness that it isn’t in their interest to do anything other than blindly follow the directives or advice of their doctor. You’d be howled down in screams of indignant protesting screams…
You are a qualified idiot. You’d do better to keep your mouth shut – that way no-one will actually know just how stupid you really are. Oh, you are opinionated and you obviously know how to weedle your way into the publics gaze but that is a parlous reason promote your capacity to make considered well thought pieces on important issues.
If I didn’t know better I’d find it ridiculously easy to believe you just gave a synopsis of a government press release garbled together with some random daydream you had over the issue.
Let me make something abundantly clear to you. Even though I left school when I was 15 it wasn’t an indicator of my abilities or capacity to learn or prosper. Neither was it a determinating factor in my “genius” IQ score. Your inference that either a persons age or level of schooling both justifies and/or describes the reasons in entirety for the guy’s choice over immunisation or not is woefully lacking in ANY logic or rationale’- simply it is an emotive rant without any substance.. In reality your opinion is both callous and misinformed in regard toward this bloke.
I think your fear toward other people over their making choices for themselves and their families is more than apparent – and I think and feel your opinion is a justified expression of how you FEEL. But your attempt to use your fears as a reason to prevent people of this ilk to make their own choice is illogical and bordering on psychotic emotional fears and negative tendancies toward others.
Why should you or the government have any right to force someone to have their children take medicine that they believe might harm their children? Simply because of ungrounded, baseless fear mongering by the drug corporations? G*d forbid we make these sort of decisions over the strength of a corporations PR department. Government by corporate sensibilties. This is in effect what you are promoting. Thankfully my Grandfather who fought in New Guinea to protect Australians from government and imperial fascist control in Japan is alive to witness the disgusting attempt at having Australia swayed in public policy to pander to the interests of overseas corporations.
Where is the evidence (not hypotheses) that letting these people make their own choices in these matters does any real harm to anyone outside of their own families? ANSWER – There is none, there has never been any studies to investigate whether this train of thought is in fact the truth.
If you were to consider that question in the context of the broader real world, and ask mother and fathers to stop making choices that might negatively affect other families health and welfare it would certainly open up a who;e pantheon of considerations. Some of those considerations I’m sure have a greater impact on the wider world than a few hundred kids that won’t have immunisation because of their parents choice.
You are a complete an utter moron. From what I can gather from reading about what others have to say about you, we the Australian public are in agreement – you suck at this job. Go find another.
Sorry about the typo’s, whereas you get paid to promote your corporate filth I haven’t got anymore time to waste on this subject.
Kind Regards
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“Let me make something abundantly clear to you. Even though I left school when I was 15 it wasn’t an indicator of my abilities or capacity to learn or prosper.”
Oh gosh, this is the best thing I have read all day. I can’t believe that there are people in this world like this.
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Immunization depends on most children being vaccinated to be effective at eradicating these diseases. People in 3rd world countries who are watching their children die from “childhood” diseases would love our free and accessible vaccination program. We will see a recurrence of these diseases if people do not vaccinate. I cannot believe that people are still quoting the autism card either. The time of diagnosis happens to correlate with one of the vaccinations that’s all. People look for something to blame.
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Wow Anthony, I’ve nearly filled my AVer argument bingo card with just your comment!
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“Even though I left school when I was 15 it wasn’t an indicator of my abilities or capacity to learn or prosper. Neither was it a determinating factor in my “genius” IQ score.”
Uh huh.
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Im sure your grandfather, & mine for that matter, fought in the war for many reasons, 1 may have been so children didnt have to suffer & die from preventable illnesses.
You idiot.
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Good one eugenica. So women, who’s next for gardasil shot? You?
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Not my daughters, Bob.
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Well I’m too old for the sponsored one, but my oldest daughter’s had hers, I know lots of people her age that have had it and my next will be having it next year.
Your point?
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Much higher risk of breast cancer.
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Reference please. From a well known peer reviewed journal or respected organization preferably.
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what about the hoards of my friends (under 30 females) who had adverse reactions and many were hospitalised? yup, REALLY safe. I don’t need a peer reviewed article to tell me that when I saw it first hand thanks.
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You have hordes of friends? And hordes of them reacted badly to Gardasil?
I saw (I guess) hordes of people get jabs when in the navy, gardasil included, and they were all fine.
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I had the gardasil vaccine quite a few years back now, when it first came out, I was fine and am still fine to this day.
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Really, have these “hordes” of adverse reactions been reported to the proper authorities for deeper investigation?
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Well I know hordes of people who have been fine after it, including one of my own girls. I don’t remember anyone that has immunized at the schools commenting on any real adverse reactions.
But….neither of us can prove it can we?
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‘A few years ago, I worked with a lovely guy who had left school at 16.’
What’s that got to do with anything? Because he doesn’t hold a degree he’s lovely but … well. you know?
I have a relo who left school at 15, is worth hundreds of mill and employs thousands.
There’s a list as long as your arm of people who left school early but aren’t stupid.
Elitism much?
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No Batti, but I would argue that someone with very little formal education who believes they know more than the combined weight of every scientist in the world might be a little deluded.
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Every scientist Mia???? Now you are really bending the truth. May I ask what YOUR formal education is that makes you qualified to write the article in the Herlad? You are no expert.
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There are many scientist that are opposed to vaccines D.A.
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Rachel Dunlop has a ‘special interest’ in no doubt closing down debate on natural medicine and vaccines and is VP of the fanatical skeptics group. She is at the other extreme end of the subject. Why can’t you talk to somebody that has the ability to at least be impartial? What about Professor Peter Collignon who is at least a mature and highly experienced infectious diseases expert and microbiologist, not some trendy Gen Y know it all that used to be an artist and is now VP of the skeptics society. For God’s sakes stop insulting our intelligence. If you are going to interview people at least feature experts with some credibility not an 8 year university ‘veteran’ trying to make a name for themselves.
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If you disagree with her so much, why not point out what you disagree with and provide the evidence as to why that is the case? Arguments like these don’t mean much. It’s just a lot of blustering.
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Dee, there is not credible scientist, academic or scientific study in the world which has ever found any link whatsoever between autism and vaccinations.
Ditto any evidence that the earth is flat.
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Just a point on Dr. Wakefield and his work.
There is a big difference between being “discredited” and being “disproven”…
Some light scientific reading for all the Big Pharma sheeple.
Does Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Increase the Risk of Illness with the 2009 A/H1N1 Pandemic Virus?
Viboud C, Simonsen L (2010) Does Seasonal Influenza Vaccination Increase the Risk of Illness with the 2009 A/H1N1 Pandemic Virus? PLoS Med 7(4): e1000259. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.1000259
Care to guess what the study found? In short, it found that people who received the seasonal flu vaccine shot in 2008 were up to 274% more likely to be infected by H1N1 swine flu than those who skipped the season flu shots.
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Haven’t had time to read the journal article you linked (to see if your interpretation is in fact correct), but my first thought it is this: if all the researchers are in “Big Pharma’s” pocket, how do we get even one peer reviewed article questioning vaccine efficacy (if in fact it does). Wouldn’t this be silenced too? And why believe one peer reviewed journal article but not the countless others with evidence for safety and efficacy? Because it agrees with your preconceived notions?
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I haven’t had a chance to read the article, but I’m just wondering if that statistic could possibly be because the people who were most likely to get the H1N1 vaccine were those most at risk of coming into contact with the virus (ie health workers and the like)? No malice intended, genuine question.
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I did read the flu study….this highlights why people shouldn’t google information as per Mia’s article today.
Yes seasonal influenza vaccine increased the risk of pandemic H1N1 influenza by between 3-274%
Seasonal influenza vaccine reduced seasonal influenza by 41-67%
This Canadian study was the only one to suggest an increased in pandemic influenza following season trivalent vaccination….4 showed no difference, while two were protective.
Can I emphasize again…this is why people who can type in a few words into google are NOT experts.
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Gardasil ladies?
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Had all 3 of mine, and I am fine
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My brother had a violent reaction to the MMR vaccination and although I acknowledge he is in a small group, the effect was drastic upon him and our family unit. This was exaserbated by the abject refusal of most medical professionals to even admit that vaccination reaction was even a possibility for his ongoing (still now, 15 years on) heightened medical, intellectual and social awareness intervention needs.
One doctor was kind enough to inform me (off the record naturally, litigious society we live in) that he believed this was a vaccination reaction and he further cautioned me of the possibility of a genetic link to such reactions. As a result I am still unsure of what I will do when the time comes for me to have children and have to decide what to do. Although I am fully vaccinated (to my mothers horror due to her experiences with my brother over the years) I am fully aware that I may be a carrier and I don’t know that I can open my children to any risk of what my brother has suffered.
The worst of this though is the reprisals I fear will be forthcoming from all angles should I decide not to vaccinate. Although at a potentially heightened risk of devastating reaction, I am aware of the ostracism and judgements I will have to deal with from schools, some GPs and the parents of other children should I make the decision not to vaccinate.
The continuation of this argument assists no one. People have already picked their sides and their minds will not be changed. All this does is open the gates for the free flow of vitriol from both sides as evident in previous comments. This is a personal decision and should be left the the individual. I will say this though, if the potential side-effects (minimal as they may be) were explained to each parent in an open and transparent manner as opposed to the current “this is the way” mentality, the AVN would have a much lesser cause.
Also in the interest of transparency, I noticed the nice embedded “causal” by your author, surely you would be intending of explaining the terms “causal” v “association” if you plan on purporting this article as clear, concise and impartial?
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Jen, I cannot believe that you would worry about what to do when you have your own children. You, of all people, should be reading top to bottom about this issue, and do NOT start with the AVN. There’s heaps more material out there that is not as biased.
As for reprisals, forget it. I have three unvaccinated children and have never had a moments worry. If an parent is concerned about your child’s unimmunised status and chooses to keep their child away, you’ll be the winner for it. It virtually never happens anyway, because as much as there is pro-vaxxers expessing hatred on this site, the reality of it is that there is a lot of suss parents out there who will be more interested in why you made the choice than boycott you for it. My sister is a GP and massively pro-vax, and wouldn’t dare not have her kids see the cousins. This site is the most lunatic thing you will read about the issue, dominated by two groups who will never agree. In real life the issue is not as bitter.
Lastly,and obviously,I have three unimmunised kids who between their 32 years of age have had two GP visits. That is NOT a stat that should influence your decision, but I will never regret my/our decisions. Read up and trust your own judgement.
Lastly, in the ’80′s and 90′s the medical profession was mad for anti-biotics. Prescribed them for everything from a sniffle to a hangover. Then in 1999 the World Health Organisation admitted that over-prescriptions of anti-biotics was the single greatest threat to mankind. What they think today is not necessarily what they will think in 20202 or 2030. And come that time you won’t find a doctor anywhere who doesn’t say that they were suss back now. The problem is finding one now who is not a sheep.
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Loved your article in the Tele today Mia…
People think the internet is a degree…..
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It’s like religion, make your own choice n move on. I fell so sorry for the kids who end up in hospital over something that is claimed to be safe. Eugenics.
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Mia, while I admire this sites push to get the facts out there in regards to the importance of immunization ( and for the record all 3 of my kids are immunized)
I have to question why you are reposting the same articles again. You are NEVER going to change the minds of either side. All you do is give the anti vaxers another platform to push their agenda.
You are running the very real risk of turning people off the topic all together. Sometimes you loose the message in the attempt to smack people over the head with your opinions. I fear your message is being lost. The cynic in me thinks that perhaps you and your team know that this particular topic ( along with some others pointed out by others below) are only posted for the clicks.
I may have missed it but I could not even find an update on this post to even explain why it has been promoted back onto the front page.
If you are really passionate about this topic why don’t you have a link on your home page that is always up that people can click on to see all the immunization facts. Like I said, you are never going to get anyone from either side to change their minds so just have some simple info for those who are seeking facts.
Can we please move on from this topic for a while. I think you are actually going to have the opposite effect to what you want if you continue like this.
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I think they have reposted it because of her article in the Sunday papers today.
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Exactly right – so many people want to talk about it but we can only publish Mia’s article from the paper tonight
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My son was unable to have the whooping cough vaccine due to a bleed in his brain during birth. I worried about him coming into contact with unvaccinated children for many years and felt/still feel very strongly that those children should not be allowed to attend school and endanger other children’s lives, so bravo Mia on an excellent piece in today’s paper. An interesting side note: I worked in Byron Bay for many years and dealt with the founder of the anti-vaccination network and noted with interest that all of that particular family were obese – health concerns indeed!
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So then, by your reasoning your child would not be allowed to attend school either, so as not to put at risk other, un-imunised children…? Or is it OK for your child to attend school and possibly infect other children (who couldn’t be vaccinated because of health issues) because your child had health issues? It’s a ridiculous idea..
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You must come from the AVN group with a “ridiculous” reply like that, ie. I would not have had to worry about my son catching whooping cough at all if ALL students at his school had been vaccinated, which FYI, they were. Ergo, if he could not catch it off his immunised classmates, then it would be impossible for him to spread it. If you are going to put moronic responses to comments at least learn how to spell “immunise”
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Even though I find your reasoning nonsensical.. You’re completely correct, my typo of “immunise” is painful to look at.. But just FYI, I don’t come from any “group”, though I am most certainly on the side of immunisation. My comment was centred entirely around yours. As previously stated, numerous times, just because a child is immunised, does not make them 100% immune to whatever it is they were immunised against, therefore it is completely possible that your child (and any other that was not vaccinated) could contract the illness from a child that was immunised, and pass it on with a greater certainty, to others that were, for completely legitimate medical reasons not vaccinated.. I’m just saying, your reasoning for restricting access to education, is a little absurd.. Also, resorting to personal attacks over the dropping of a letter, seems a little petty..
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Check out the high correlations between ongoing chiropractic care and increased immunity. Yes, there are PLENTY of scienctific, peer reviewed studies done on this! With an immune system functioning at its best, is there a need for vaccinations? I think we grossly under-estimate how wonderful our bodies are. We are our own best pharmacy.
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Can you please show us those links, then?
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I too was a sheep, did what everyone said and got my 6 week old little girl vaccinated at the local dr…By the time i was at the counter paying for my visit my daughter had gone limp in my arms and started to fit.. she was the one in a thousand that have a bad reaction… It took 12 yrs for her to get better and cost us thousands of dollars trying to cure her… The dr shit himself he was panicking more than me… my poor happy beautiful baby then cried for yrs.. she developed a rash all over her body her skin would weep with excema . then i did what all parents should do research we will not take the risk of vaccinating our other children… at no stage in our dr visit did he say oh your baby might get very sick by the time you walk back to the car and die… yes she stopped breathing. I feel so much guilt for making her sick by just doing what everyone told me to do.( get her needles) she still has scarring on her body from the rashes due to the high temps that became infected.. when she was in hospital some nurses told me that they see babies all the time that have severe reactions to vaccines. She is a young teenager now and still is suffering she is very sensitive to chemicals soaps washing powers etc… As her mother it is not nice knowing that I did this to her by not educating myself to the dangers before I went to the Drs.. needless to say all our close friends and relatives that lived through this with us have not vaccinated there kids either.
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Interesting. What country did you get her vaccinated in? Cause up until recently we waited until 2 months to vaccinate.
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It’s recommended in Australia that you start vaccinations at 6 weeks of age, mainly due to the high number of whooping cough cases around now. I received two letters from the government within days of registering my baby’s birth advising me to start vaccinations at 6 weeks because of the increased risks of whooping cough.
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Well aware of that, but it only “came in” last year. Before that it was 2 months.
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Oh sorry, as a new parent I had no idea that that only “came in” last year. I had a friend who was told to have her little boy’s first vaccinations at 6 weeks and he is 4 years old now so thought it must have been like that for a while. Maybe some area health services give out different information. Wasn’t trying to be rude or anything, just thought I was being helpful. All good.
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I get that. It’s a national schedule, so there shouldn’t be local differences. I don’t know why someone would’ve been told 4 years ago to get bub immunized at 6 weeks. Up until last year, you wouldn’t find anyone willing to until at least 7 weeks 3 days, with 2 months being the aim. I spent a lot of time last year telling parents about the new time for the first needle and hearing about GPs that refused to do it.
In NZ it’s always been 6 weeks (I believe) but not here.
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I have scars from eczema too. Used to weep if I scratched it enough. I am sensitive to soaps etc. I don’t blame vaccines though. It’s just how I was born.
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Are you serious her daughter almost died from a bad reactions to a vaccination and you are focusing on the eczema and sensitive to soaps comment she made in her post……What part of the government do you work for?
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The secret part that tries to control everyone through vaccination, obviously. I’m surprised you even need to ask.
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Jane, I am very sorry to hear how bad the reaction was from the vaccination of your daughter.
I agree that there should be more transparency when people are told to vaccinate so that parents can make up their minds. Each scenario, whether vaccinating or not vaccinating, has risks, and so each risk should be explained.
One of the points of Mia’s article is that when researching things on the internet, we as the general public need to be careful. I guess the problem is that when you are not a ‘true expert’ in a field, it can be difficult to sort out what is real and true and what is rubbish. And I think people shouldn’t be afraid to question doctor’s suggestions. Ask them, what is the risk of contracting this disease if I don’t get my child vaccinated? How does the infection develop? Is it an easily treatable infection, can they easily clear it on their own? Will they be left with any long term effects if they do get sick? etc etc.
If you don’t vaccinate, there is the risk your child will contract one of these diseases, if you do vaccinate there is the risk of a reaction, and in some cases these reactions are extreme.
I do not know the exact percentage risk of contracting each of the diseases that can be vaccinated against, nor do I know the exact percentage risk of having a bad reaction to any of the vaccines (without reading some articles right now), however as an infectious diseases research scientist I have heard many seminars and read many articles in relation to vaccines, and I do know that in most cases the risk of having a severe reaction to a vaccine is much less likely than contracting the disease being vaccinated against.
If you haven’t guessed already I am pro vaccination, however I still think that people should be told the percentage risk of each scenario. The problem is there is no guarantee. Your child may be lucky and never get any of these diseases even though they are not vaccinated, that is a risk you take, or your child may be unlucky and have a bad reaction to a vaccine, that is a risk you take. Nothing is certain in this life. I can certainly understand why Jane and her friends have not vaccinated their children following the disastrous vaccination of her daughter. I will bet that there are other parents out there that after not vaccinating their first child, who then contracted some awful disease, has decided to vaccinate the rest of their children. It all comes down to the experiences you’ve had.
I do remember from one seminar at my department (I have worked at both Monash University and The University of Melbourne), that at one time the risk of contracting polio in the US was less than the risk of a reaction from the vaccine, and hence vaccination was suspended for a time. I think generally the government is trying to do the right thing when it comes to vaccination. And as has been brought up a number of times on this website, vaccinations aren’t 100%. Unfortunately bacteria and viruses are adaptable, they have developed many mechanisms to be able to survive, which is part of the reason vaccination is not 100%.
I do have one final comment, as a scientific researcher I do resent the claims about researchers publishing data backing vaccines due to being in the pocket of pharmaceutical companies. The majority of researchers out there are trying to find the truth when it comes to their research, not the outcome they want. I don’t dispute that there are unscrupulous researchers out there that will doctor their research, however I find it frustrating that so many of the comments on this page, not just in relation to scientists, are all encompassing. There are too many extreme comments from both sides of the debate and they are unhelpful. And too many cheap shots at each other as well. Most things in life are not black and white, there is a lot of grey in between, we should be able to discuss problems and hear both sides of the debate without the sides resorting to scaremongering, but simply telling the honest truth.
I will say again to finish off, I am pro vaccination as I believe that the benefits outweigh the risks.
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Three months ago, I caught whooping cough from an unknown source. I am 28 years old and was vaccinated as a child but I had never been told that you need a booster as you get older to maintain your immunity.
Whooping cough in an adult is absolutely horrible so I can only imagine what it is like for a child. A coughing fit makes you feel like you are choking and would often leave me gasping for breath for 5 minutes afterwards. It was also common for me to dry reach or vomit during that coughing fit.
Whooping cough is not like a normal cough with phlegm or fluids you can cough up and then carry on. It is a dry cough that irritates your lungs and throat and there is nothing you can take or do to make you feel better. Three months later I am only just now recovering from it.
To make matters worse, I was infected over Christmas and still taking antibiotics (which kills the virus but doesn’t alleviate symptoms). This meant I was isolated and quarantined from all my family especially two of my cousins who don’t vaccinate their children because of their own misguided “research”.
I would gladly get vaccinated EVERY SINGLE YEAR if it meant that I never got whooping cough ever again.
I wish people would stop focusing on what problems vaccinations can cause and instead focus on what it is preventing. Whooping cough is one of the more survivable diseases that vaccinations can prevent but I would never like to go back there again.
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Google… contaminated vaccines and viral RNA contamination. Do a search. And MIA Google can be better as scientist post there proof on websites. Published books and medical journals have lied in the past n will lie tomorrow into the future for profit. There are many white house official documents and science czars backing and admiting to contaminated vaccines. These are purposely done in relation to population growth and many other sickening reasons. Eugenics
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“science czars”? Awesome! Does that make Meryl Dorey Rasputin?
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And Andrew Wakefield must be Trotsky! LMAO!
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Gates did a TED talk. It’s caused wide spread discussion. I watched it and thought WTF.
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It is clear as day that this thread has been taken over by anti vax supporters from the avn.
Mia, don’t lower yourself to their level, your readers are intelligent and informed and would never listen to those hoons.
They are so dangerous and ignorant it makes my blood boil. Those of us with common sense know and understand that vaccination is essential. I am fully vaccinated and get my flu shot annually. I would never not vaccinate myself.
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How has it been ‘taken over?’ Sorry, no other opinions are acceptable because Mia has spoken? My children are vaccinated. I also nurse a little girl who is permanently and seriously brain damaged from a side effect of vaccination. Her single mother has no family support and couldn’t survive on the carer’s pension so she has had to surrender her daughter to state care. Not uncommon and worth discussing IMHO.
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I come from a third world country where people die every day because they don’t have access to the medical treatment we are so fortunate to have here. I’ve seen much worse in my life. There is no pension or state care where I come from. You get seriously sick and you die.
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are you serious? just because other people have had other experiences, they are unable to voice their opinions?
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Eugenics – Mr n Mrs gates are major fund raisers and supporters of eugenics through there vaccines. Do some home work MIA. Evidence is all over the place. EUGENICS
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And TOXINS! and BIG PHARMA!!!!!! And LOTS OF SHOUTY STUFF IN ALL CAPS!!!!
Yeah, conspiracy theories and scary words are way more convincing than facts from doctors!
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LOL! I was loudly laughing, or is that LLOL?
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This made me laugh.
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Mr Gates was caught on camera at a TED conference admitting that the population was due to decline ‘thanks to the use of vaccines’. You can see him stating this on youtube. He has also invested big time in GM foods with Monsanto while contributing funding to the seed bank. He comes from a family of eugenicists. What more proof do you want of the real intent of Bill Gates.
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That’s absolutely true, Dee. I watched it and was gobsmacked.
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Go on, give us a Godwin, you know you want to…
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funny how there’s a whooping cough outbreak and even ‘vaccinated’ children are getting it. While reading the research is amicable, also have a read of who DID the research, who FUNDED the research and what are the conflicts of interest of the scientists….this takes a lot more research that just reading what the pharmaceutical companies put out.
Also, look at Japan’s history…..no vaccinations under the age of 2 and suddenly SIDS becomes a rare event…..coincidence?
Peanut allergies are unbelievabely commmon now too. Another coincidence that in some vaccintations are peanut compounds????
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Funny how people think they are qualified to understand the scientific literature when they have no scientific background or training (this becomes fairly obvious, for example, if someone clearly doesn’t even understand one of the most basic principles of scientific methodology – the difference between correlation and causality).
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funny how those ‘ignorant’ people may have more than one science degree…..
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which ones, anonymous? Vera Scheibner is a paleontologist. Meryl Dorey was a stockbroker and her qualifications consist solely of “having a brain” (her words, certainly not mine!)
Of all the “medical professionals” who commit to supporting the AVN, all but two, I believe are chiropractors, osteopaths and other “pretend doctors”.
Doesn’t it ring any alarm bells that there are barely any genuine medical professionals who subscribe to the antivax hysteria?
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Flannery is a paleontologist and everybody seems happy to eat out of his hand without question?
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relevance?
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“Also, look at Japan’s history…..no vaccinations under the age of 2 and suddenly SIDS becomes a rare event…..coincidence?”
Evidence?
“Peanut allergies are unbelievabely commmon now too. Another coincidence that in some vaccintations are peanut compounds????”
Evidence?
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As someone who’s been a teacher for 30 years I can say with absolute conviction that although my evidence is only anecdotal, there has been an explosion in the numbers of children with peanut allergies in the last ten years. Once you may have had one child in the entire school, now there are a couple in each class. This is a pattern across the country. Are there any studies being done into this, do you know?
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Of course there is. There is also good evidence that in countries where infant’s diets are restricted, the level of allergy is higher. Italy and other European nations have lower rates of allergy than the UK, Australia and the US for apparently this reason.
Vaccination, I believe, has little to do with it given that vaccination is fairly standard across developed nations.
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Yep there are studies going on investigating the increased rate of childhood allergies, just the other month there was a doco on tv about it. Can’t remeber if it was ABC or SBS. They still don’t know the reason’s why it’s occuring.
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Sorry Ali,
But you may have been misinformed, I live in Japan and the immunization schedule is very similar to that of Western countries. The first immunization is at 3 months. Low SIDS statistics are credited to predominant back sleeping but this is some other information I have come across.
“Japan’s leading SIDS researcher, Professor Hiroshi Nishida’s belief was that the SIDS rate in Japan was not as low as reported. Because the Japanese did not believe that SIDS was a problem therefore, they did not make the diagnosis. With the efforts to increase public and professional awareness about SIDS, the SIDS rate has risen.”
I know you are talking about peanut allergies rising in Australia but just to let you know peanut allergies are lower here but the heat at which peanuts are boiled in Asia (as opposed to roasted in Western countries, high roasting temperatures dramatically increase the allergens) means that many children aren’t exposed.
Japan has many other allergies that affect children in the same way that peanuts affect Australian children. In Japan, allergy to buckwheat flour, used for soba noodles, is more common, comparatively prevalent and increasing on par with western country’s stats for other allergies.
Just to let you know I have an immunized son who happens to have some mild allergies, in Japan.
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So, SIDs education couldn’t have anything to do with it? If its vaccine related please explain why our SIDs rate has dropped even though as a country we’ve continued to have high vaccination rates.
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And not just dropped marginally, Faybian – since SIDS safe sleeping guidelines were introduced, SIDS death rates in Australia
have dropped by around 75%.
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Oh dear, it’s back.
I think there are a few subjects guaranteed to get people het up.
Immunisation
Abortion
Breastfeeding
Homebirth VS caesarians
Religion
Politics
Smacking VS not smacking kids
These days:gay marriage and global warming
I wonder how many peoples’ opinions are changed via these debates and I also wonder when it became ok to become so nastytoothers for a difference in opinion.
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I always look for your comments as a common sense benchmark, Faybian.
To the list of ‘Oh, god, it’s back again’ subjects, I’d add:
Having children vs not having them
public vs private schools
the definition of ‘normal’ vs ‘obese’ when it comes to body image
A random selection of topics I’d be more than happy to see on this ‘repeater’ list:
organ donation
euthanasia
carers and their support
a bit more on global issues
I suppose we all have our preferred ‘topics of interest’, even if it feel to others that we’re just going over old ground … again. As to whether people’s views are actually changed, I’m not sure.
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Thanks for your kind words. I like your comments too.
I agree with your suggestions, particularly organ donation. We have such a low rate in this country…..
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The subjects you list Faybian, have all been done to death. Bogan bashing is another regular offender. I have given up reading posts on these subjects because the opinions and arguments are still the same as they were last time. These subjects attract too many Anonymous posters for my liking. I have also noticed a few re-runs of old stories, run with an ‘update’.
I love Mamamia but you’ve gotta keep it interesting. I understand writing a column about a subject you feel passionate about, but enough already! A refreshed ‘repeater’ list is needed.
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And stay at home mums vs. working mums and using childcare vs. not using childcare. It does seem like some subjects are on high rotation on this site but maybe I’m just noticing these posts more because of the fuss they create.
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I had to read “nastytoothers” about a dozen times before I eventually worked out what it was.. I thought it had something to do with soothsayers or something.. Completely puzzled..
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OMG! I didn’t even notice it. I get really lazy on the iPad, because of autocorrect and don’t always press the space bar as hard as I need to. It was to “nasty to others”.
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So basically you are telling people to believe all that “science” tells them since they know everything? Blood letting was once a scientific method. Leeches were used in medicine as well. The list goes on and on.
Yes boys and girls, don’t question medicine, just do as you are told.
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FYI leeches are still used in medicine – they are invaluable actually.
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The difference between science and ‘alternative’ medicines is that science learns. Science is relatively new, much newer than blood-letting which is thousands of years old. As we developed science, we abandoned bleeding.
I think it’s interesting that you chose that as an example, because archaeological and historical research shows that acupuncture is basically the modern version of bleeding, as metalworking skills got better the needles got thinner. Blood letting is alive and well today, being practiced by many ‘alternative’ practitioners. I look forward to you applying the same standards to various other alternative modalities.
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LOL great minds, Deb… ; )
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The thing is, science acknowledges when it is wrong and adopts the newest, correct information as the evidence arises. The antivax movement starts with a hypothesis and ignores any information to the contrary.
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I have my children vaccinated but like a lot of people know children with autism, one severely so. The parents are actually open minded about the cause….they would love to know why this happened and investigate all possible causes. I am curious though…is autism in all countries? Reason I ask is some cancers are not in some countries such as Japan with near nil breast cancer. Makes me wonder about autism. Anyone know? Is it worldwide?
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It’s one of those things that vary with access to diagnosis. In countries that don’t have the luxury of children’s development teams and early intervention then autism is very rarely diagnosed – it doesn’t mean it isn’t there, but we have no idea what is happening.
What does tend to happen in those countries is that the very topmost demographic layers that can afford diagnosis and intervention do have autism.
Also if you look historically at insane asylum or mental institution records there are people who would probably be diagnosed with autism today. So we have reasonable evidence that it was around but are relying on very patchy material. If it was around historically when the west had conditions similar to the developing world today, then it is probably there.
Unfortunately there are huge difficulties comparing just about anything medical across countries because of different diagnostic criteria.
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Thanks for the points. It must then follow on that those people with autistic children must have the problem of accessing the best treatment….I imagine even ‘what’ is best is even a huge debate in itself. I’m not religious but it makes me think of that quote ‘there but for the grace of god go I’.
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Thiomeral is a mercury base that is used in vaccinations. Has it been completely outlawed here and why was it suddenly stopped overseas?
If you google Pinks Disease you will find studies that the mercury dose that these sufferers received is being linked to autism in their children and grandchildren.
I can’t help but notice how the Doctor has spun around this concern by presenting a list of ridiculous things first … monkeys organs, fecal matter … and then, when the reader is convinced of that they would be mental to even doubt the safety, she quietly mentions mercury.
I’m on the fence as far as the safety of vaccines goes. My children were done thirty odd years ago and I understand that the communal benefits are enormous.
I’m just saying, this is dumbed down medical writing and the incidence of autism is perceived to have exploded in my half century.
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Anon – please don’t tell people to google something as if that is the same as scientific proof. It’s not!!!!!
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I’m sorry Mia, I didn’t realise that your readers were unable to google Pinks Disease without panicking that Barbies cause autism. I presumed they have the intellect to sift through and find scientific based information.
Here’s a link for them if they’re interested. It’s related to Swinbourne research into Pinks Disease through three generations and says, in part -
A family history of pink disease is a significant risk factor for developing autism spectrum disorder (ASD), new research from Swinburne University of Technology has found.
For the current study the Swinburne researchers surveyed over 500 Australian survivors of Pink Disease, asking them about the health of their descendents. This allowed them to collect detailed data about the survivors, as well as their 1100 children and 1360 grandchildren.
The prevalence rate of most disorders was comparable to general population figures, however, the rate for autism was extremely high.
“Staggeringly, we found that one in 25 grandchildren of pink disease survivors aged 6-12 had been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder. This compares to the current Australian prevalence rate for that age group of one in 160.
“This study suggests that it may actually be a combination of the two. That is, genetic susceptibility to a trigger (mercury) and then exposure to that trigger. In this sense, it is like a peanut allergy. For most of us peanuts are completely harmless but, for those who are allergic, there can be serious consequences if there is exposure.”
“This can be done by observing the recommendations of Food Standards Australia regarding seafood consumption, opting for non-amalgam dental fillings and requesting preservative-free vaccines from your doctor,” he said.
http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20110908-22477.html
The study suggests that a predisposition to mercury sensitivity may be a link to the increased autism rates.
Since 1999, Thimerosal has been removed or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger.
Except Hep B.
Why was it removed?
Maybe autism isn’t directly linked to the actual vaccine anymore, maybe it is linked to the vaccines given to the child’s parents.
Any parent who has had a normal, engaged child one day before vaccinations and an autistic one after deserves to have access to research that might give them answers. Equally, if they have a family member with autism they have the right to know that links are being studied before they immunise.
Even if they have to google it.
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That ‘study’ has been thoroughly discredited – it didn’t even look at the medical records of the children, but relied on reporting from their grandparents. While I have great respect for all the grandparents of my children, they are not able to diagnose autism or autism like symptoms!
And saying that parents of children with autism deserve answers? Absolutely. That is why there have been over 60 studies done around the world looking at different aspects of the autism/vaccine connection. There isn’t one.
It isn’t the scientific and medical community ignoring parents’ concerns. It is particular parents and organisations with a vested interest ignoring answers they don’t like. Just because you don’t like the answer doesn’t mean there isn’t one there.
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Mia I can’t believe you are telling parents NOT to look into information for themselves, that is ludicrous!!!!! I recently read your ” load of rubbish ” in the Herald stating parents are stupid for not vaccinating their children. I found your article very aggressive and sorry I don’t view ” your opinion ” on anything as ” expert “. I have 4 children and like with my own health, I research everything before we decide if it’s the path we take. Before you publish an article on let’s say Vaccination, did you care to research both sides of the story so you present a balanced argument? Have you sat in a room with a group of parents who have seen their beautiful, healthy children change after their routine vaccinations? No you referenced one past workmate you knew and you painted him to be stupid. I dont see him that way, I applaud him for going a little deeper and making a decision based on personal research. Last year here in WA a little girl became serverely brain damaged after she was given a scientifically approved flu shot. I dare you to sit in the same room as those parents and rant your vaccination opinions. Oh and I know you don’t agree with using Google as a tool for information but just in case her name was Saba Button. Her parents totally regret not researching their decision. On the whole Google topic, I found Mamamia on Google so I guess parents should view it as a load of rubbish because the content you post is not all scientifically based, sheesh!
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I don’t want to harp on the issue of research and disseminating information for yourself as opposed to relying on ‘cheat sheets’ but …. being a massive advocate for the environment my natural instinct was to jump onto the whole ‘climate change’ bandwagon.
After months of swinging to both sides of the debate, ‘googling’ scientific and opinion pieces and listening to the absolute nonsense of Flannery, the Greens and the ALP and knowing that the carbon tax will be a wrecking ball through our economy, after researching the Chinese climate whose records date back 3500 years and discovering that we have had three episode of warmer periods than we have now, after spending months wading through info to find out how it all got rolling in the first place, after discovering the fraud and murder of farmers in third world countries who’s farms have been stolen with UN sanction to provide single species forests for carbon traders, I’m happy to say that, unlike Mia, who couldn’t even be bothered to watch An Inconvenient Truth and formed her opinion because the scientists told her what to think, I’ve made my own informed decision about climate change/global warming/cooling/drought and flooding rain and concluded that if you want the real info then GOOGLE it and don’t trust anyone – not even scientists.
Who do you think is paying for the research? Who’s paying the climate scientists? Who’s paying for the research into CSG? Who’s funding the CSIRO who have a disclaimer at the bottom of their website that says they reserve the right to be wrong?
Of course, once Bob Brown shuts down free speech and the ALP get their internet censorship, we probably won’t be able to find out anything. ‘Reporters without Borders’ has an alert on Australia and is monitoring the situation.
Get googling while you can.
BTW I’m not an AVN troll. My children were vacinated without incident and I agree that it has been one of the major scientific benefits to society but it does need to be monitored.
Ms Gillard says the ‘science is settled’ … that’s enough for me to know that it never is.
And there is nothing wrong with being a skeptic.
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The internet is no substitute for actual scientific knowledge. You have been duped by misinformation because you can’t accept the reality of the situation. I see climate change deniers and anti-vaccers as exactly the same as creationists – you can find heaps of stuff on the internet that ‘disproves’ evoltuion. The only problem is it is all wrong.
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In your ‘research’ you came across the reason the flu vaccine was introduced in WA, didn’t you? It’s fairly easy to find.
So either you weren’t thorough enough to find it, you choose to ignore information that doesn’t fit in with your preconceptions, or you don’t think dead children are relevant to children’s health.
Whichever is the case, it must be a very interesting logic tree involved.
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Thiomersal is not in Australian childhood vaccines. You don’t even need to googl it, you can read this post with the many comments providing excellent links.
If you insist though, check the NHMRC website (Australian) or the CDC website.
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I don’t understand your point at all.
Mercury (thiomerosal) is not in any childhood vaccines except the mono valent Hep B vaccine (and there are a number of mercury-free Hep B vaccine alternatives). I can’t see how the author was “quietly mentioning mercury”. It is right there under myth number 2 – the one that points out that childhood vaccines do not contain mercury (except for one for which alternatives are available). It is absolutely possible for a child to be fully immunised without subjecting them to any vaccines containing thiomerosal (if that is what you are actually worried about).
I find it astonishing that the myth that childhood vaccines contain mercury continues to be perpetuated. It is just not true. You can’t even debate the validity of medical studies on this – it is just not true.
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This is great. I am all for fighting myths with science – yay MM. Vaccination is so important and I’m really glad you’re behind the issue.
On the other hand I can’t help but chip on #9… nearly every country in the world has a different vaccination schedule, sometimes this is because the actual brand/dosage of vaccine is different, but it is largely because the medical communities in different countries do actually have different views about what an infants immune system can take at different stages of development. There is usually only a couple of months difference, but it’s potentially worth taking into consideration that Australia’s recommendations are viewed as a bit “aggressive” by other v well qualified paediatricians in the world.
Also it would be TOPS if mamamia (and everyone really!) backed science as strongly on other parenting topics. Recent debates on circumcision and breastfeeding spring to mind.
p.s. hope you catch out the AVN trolls.
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To all you conspiracy theorists out there, ever seen a toddler with tetanus in ICU because her nut job parents didn’t believe in vaccination?
So totally unnecessary.
I have 4 children. All vaccinated. All healthy.
Thank you for your article Dr Rachael.