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lena p MIA: Lena Dunham is not too ugly to sleep with this guy.

 

 

 

 

 

By MIA FREEDMAN

Girls creator, writer, director and star, Lena Dunham continues to spark important and controversial conversations with her show. This week, in a brilliantly crafted episode, Lena’s character Hannah had a spontaneous 48-hour fling with an older man who was rich and very very hot.

Did you pick the problem with that sentence? Neither did I. But many have lost their shit over the idea of someone who looks like Lena having sex with someone who looks like Joshua, the character played by actor Patrick Wilson.

Here’s a preview:

To paraphrase the commentary: “As if he would fuck HER”

Some (male) writers laughed that it must have been a dream sequence. Others mocked that as the writer, Lena Dunham had simply written the most out-there sexual fantasy she could think of just so she could then act it out as the star of the show.

Again: how could a guy like HIM want to spend time and have sex with a girl that looked like THAT.

This seems to be the part that some people found so implausible:

Joshua: You’re beautiful.

Hannah: You really think so?

Joshua: You don’t?

Hannah: I do. It’s just not always the feedback that I’ve been given.

In an article titled “Was that the worst episode of Girls ever?” Slate writers and tried to articulate why they were so uncomfortable watching it: “Why are these people having sex, when they are so clearly mismatched—in style, in looks, in manners, in age, in everything?” they wondered, adding “There are things that Hannah would not, in any world that resembled our own, get. Such as Patrick Wilson, for instance.”

But wait, there’s more.

screenshot 812 MIA: Lena Dunham is not too ugly to sleep with this guy.As for the purpose of the episode, I wondered if it wasn’t deliberately provocative, in the way that Lena Dunham’s nudity this season might have gotten more frequent in defiance of her critics. Not only has the show flipped the standard dorky-guy-and-hot-babe narrative, it’s done so with a hint of aggression.

I felt trapped by my unwillingness to buy into the central premise. Narcissistic, childish men sleep with beautiful women all the time in movies and on TV, so why should this coupling be so difficult to fathom?

I think it’s because Hannah is especially and assertively ugly in this episode. She’s rude (“what did you do?” she asks Joshua, referring to his broken marriage), self-centered (“I’m too smart and too sensitive”)

The title of this episode of Girls is “One Man’s Trash” – a play on the fact Hannah went to Joshua’s house to apologise for using his trashcan to dump the garbage from the cafe where she works.

lena dunham MIA: Lena Dunham is not too ugly to sleep with this guy.

But it’s also another play on the idea that Lena KNOWS some people are going to be sceptical and scornful of the idea that a girl like HER could ‘land’ a guy as hot as him.

What bollocks – and I’m talking about the part where people believe it could never happen. Because what does that say about women – that we’re only sexually attractive if we look like Victoria’s Secret models? And what does it say about men – that they’re so superficial that it doesn’t matter if a woman is dumb as a plank, the only quality they value is hotness.

Please.

People are attracted to each other for myriad reasons – some of which we don’t understand ourselves. Couples don’t have to ‘match’ – physically, intellectually, financially, astrologically.

Sometimes – most of the time – it’s chemistry.

Funny how nobody gets their knickers in a twist about any of THESE real-life pairings:

Cate Blanchett and Andrew Upton

Oh, and in real life, Patrick Wilson’s wife and the mother of his two kids, Dagmara Dominczyk weighed into the debate with this reply after someone on Twitter was disparaging about the idea of Patrick Wilson ever sleeping with Hannah:

dagmara MIA: Lena Dunham is not too ugly to sleep with this guy.

And here she is:

patrick dagmar 177x236 MIA: Lena Dunham is not too ugly to sleep with this guy.

So anyway. Bravo Lena Dunham for the way you continue to challenge entrenched ideas about how women (and men) behave and what ‘sexy’ looks like.

Have you see the episode [you can download it from itunes here]? Even if you haven’t, do you see what the fuss is about?

Comments

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218 Comments so far

  1. JustAGirl

    I’m a little late to this discussion but thought I’d add my thoughts anyway…

    I am what society usually think of as good looking. Blonde hair, big blue eyes, thin. Having said that, I am NOT attracted to what society thinks is the attractive stereotype in a man. The ‘pretty boy model’ or ‘All-American chiseled chin jock’ none of that. I am married now and my husband and I make a non- traditional looking pair. He has had people ask him how he ‘landed me’ but I think he’s the hottest man on the planet and I don’t know why he doesn’t have a thousand girls trying to tear his clothes off at all times. I’m glad…but still a little confused by it. Point is…just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t an it’s pretty ridiculous to think everyone judges attraction the same way.

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  2. Strejda

    I never watched the show, so I’m not a crazy fanboy or anything and I think she is kinda pretty. Good skin, a bit pudgy and sort of weird, but really cute face? Works for me.

    Like I said, I have no idea what’s this show about, so this character might be total bitch, but as far as her superficial looks go, I have no problem buying a guy like that being atracted to her.

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  3. Rose

    yeah the photographs-as-proof thing was dumb. I was thinking they should be considered an equal pairing aesthetically because she was so much younger than him and in Society’s Eyes, her youth points gave her extra pretty points by default. BUT isn’t in always the way that women still get the short end of the stick , when his age does not matter at all? all they care about is how she looks. WELL Dunham’s a genius in my book, because the show is told through her eyes and her eyes alone. She insists on being naked all the time, because fuck you if you don’t think she’s lovely. I LOVE THAT. If people don’t GET that, then they obviously aren’t the target audience – which is anyone who knows how stupid and self absorbed we all are in our youth as it holds up a mirror and screams WAKE UP!

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  4. UglyDuckling

    This is interesting. My partner is not traditionally good looking, his mates give him hell about being ugly and when we got together people openly (and rudely) asked me what I was thinking. To me, he is the sweetest soul I have ever met, he looks at me like everytime is the first time he is seeing me and when my best friend died and I fell apart he held me together. All his flaws are oblivious to me, its the whole pucture that I see that makes him so attractive to me. When people see us together they say to him that he is ‘batting above his average.’ He swells with pride while I get irritated – how dare people damage his self esteem so openly! When I announced on FB our engagement some of his ‘mates’ actually said ‘you’ve got to be kidding.’ So I un-friended them. Beauty is in the eye as we all know, and we should keep that in mind no matter who hooks up with who!

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  5. Girls is anti-men

    Where was your outrage Mia Freedman in the previous episode when a female character assaulted her husband and threatened him with a sharp piece of glass?

    Where were you when Hannah called the police and they arrested her ex-boyfriend simply because he was a man and they were having an argument.

    Where were you when the show constantly depicts men as being losers(the coffee shop guy) or perverts (the groping boss) or as selfish egotists (that artists) or pathetic pushovers (Marny’s boyfriend)

    Fuck this show. it’s straight up anti men.

    A show that did the same thing to women would be destroyed on this site by you every week.

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    • needshelp

      My favourite is the beer ad that has good looking women walking with plain men and the voice over says “these guys took a chance, and didn’t it pay dividends!” Gold! Of course there is a natural pecking order of looks. Women are no different. Men or women who don’t have good looks need something else, like power or money or personality to win a hot member of the opposite sex. It is just the way it is.

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    • Girls must be anti-girls

      By this logic, Girls must be anti-girls, because all the female characters in this series are equally as flawed as the men. The series is about showing the unglamourous side of people in New York in their mid-twenties, who are ultimately flawed and self-centered and failing in all their relationships.

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    • Tom

      RE the comment from ‘girls is anti-men’ – that is absolutely spot on and you see the same nonsense in so many shows yet women don’t so much as batter an eyelid. But as soon as the role is reversed and the women is the victim you see so many precious feminists going bat shit crazy.

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  6. Holes

    There are so many holes in this argument. First, everyone complains about the pairings in the photo slideshow of the women that are hotter than the men. EVERYONE. Woody Allen and Soon Yi?! Second, thanks for putting a picture of Patrick Wilson’s gorgeous PREGNANT wife up as an example of him being with someone bigger. Are you kidding me?! Have you seen her in Counte of Monte Cristo? She is legions ahead of Lena Dunham. Legions.

    I completely agree with the male critics. I didn’t mind Hannah and Adam. They made sense together. But it’s is infuriating when Lena Dunham acts like she is so hot and pretty by getting naked all the time and being desirable by lots of men. No a guy like Patrick Wilson would not hook up with a girl like Hannah in real life. Not only because she is dumpy, but because she isn’t intelligent like him, nor ambitious or classy. It’s literally unimaginable

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    • anya

      this is literally the most idiotic comment I’ve ever read

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  7. Hannah

    It makes me so angry when I hear comments like ‘he/she could do so much better’ or ‘how did she/he get him/her?’ when it’s based purely upon looks. Our society places so much emphasis on physical appearance, why is someone labelled as ‘better’ than their partner if they are more conventionally good looking.
    I’ve had one ex boyfriend in my early 20s who was considered to be a very good looking man. I was continually told how ‘lucky’ I was to have such a good looking boyfriend. Never mind the fact that he was manipulative, nasty and emotionally abusive…
    But the relationship was a turning point in my life, I realised how superficial looks are and I am so much more open minded when meeting new people. My sister is a very attractive girl, and her boyfriend is not conventionally good looking. When they first met there was all the ‘what is she doing with him?’ comments from family and friends, but 2 years down the track everyone loves him and comments what a wonderful guy he is, no one would ever comment that she could do ‘better’ in a million years!

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  8. should probably go to sleep now

    i had always assumed once you fall in love (emotionally, physically etc) with a person those feelings would fade but i guess not.

    Stuff you society and stuff you labels – your wrecking it for all of us.

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  9. ElleB

    I love the TV show girls, and found this episode to be a bit surreal, because it was set in such a confined setting. It didn’t once cross my mind that that Hannah hooking up with this guy was unrealistic. What did cross my mind a few times was “where is your handbag/purse Hannah?!”

    Interesting in this weeks episode how Adam and Ray discuss the attractiveness of Hannah…

    And I think the pharmacist guy she hooked up with in season 1 was better looking! And I love her willingness to expose herself physically and emotionally, warts and all!

    She is not meant to be perfect, sometimes she is self obsessed and mean… But then who isn’t!

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  10. beansbeansthemagicalfruit

    Forgot to mention when Julia married Lyle they copped A LOT of flack. Late night talk show hosts had a field day with that marriage as did magazines and newspapers. I actually find that gallery quite hypocritical considering what’s written in this article. There shouldn’t be a double standard based on gender as it totally defeats the great point you’re trying to make.

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  11. 180

    My ex who I spent 6 years with was (in my opinion and every female I came across while we were together) absolutely doubly physically attractive in comparison to me. I had women hit on him WHILE he had his ARM AROUND ME!! He thought I was the most amazing thing he’d ever know or see, and while for him it wasn’t an issue, it was for me for a long long time. It ended for completely unrelated reasons, and actually I broke his beautiful heart, but I can definitely vouch for the fact that ridiculously good looking men can fall in love with or be attracted to women not equal aesthetically. In the eye of the beholder, as they say…

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  12. beansbeansthemagicalfruit

    I posted last year about how my friend was hounding everyone to watch Girls because his girlfriend would be playing one of the main characters. No one knew what I was talking about back then but now it feels like I’m the only person who doesn’t understand why anyone would willingly watch this. I found this episode to be the absolute worst of them all so far – to the point I watched most of it through my fingers. Hannah was so annoying and immature and with the episode only focusing on her it made me realise why I’ve never warmed to this show: It’s her!! She’s usually acting like an irritating douchebag but the other girls are there to balance it out. So for me that’s the part I found unrealistic… that a seemingly normal guy didn’t kick her out after they had sex when she opened her mouth to talk. I truly feel like I’m missing something here as I just don’t get all the love for Lena and Girls.

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  13. Lara

    My partner is by far the “better” one between us. He is extremely smart, completely stop you in your tracks gorgeous, generous, kind and funny. He gets hit on daily by both women and men. Not a single female friend or mates sister etc hasn’t had feelings for him at some point. I have heard the, “How did she get him?!”, “What the hell is he doing with her?!” whispered comments a lot over the years. It’s not fun every single time. My partner assures me he loves only me and thinks I’m gorgeous. I don’t believe I am at all, but I do believe he believes it. That has to be enough, and I need to keep faith in that, or honestly I am not sure I could cope. People tell me I am so lucky (which I am because I am completely in love and think he is devine) but I’ll say this, it’s not easy being the 2 with a 10. Not in 2013.

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    • Lucinda

      But people say “what the hell is he doing with her?” because they are jealous, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you aren’t good enough looking. They would probably say it even if you were stunning.

      I am curious about all the comments from women saying they are with drop dead gorgeous men but aren’t very good looking themselves. Looks are so subjective, and so is self esteem, I wonder if women like you are hypercritical of yourselves, or over estimate how good looking your men are.

      I bet if you put up a photo most people would think you were perfectly matched. :-)

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      • Lara

        I have no doubt there is some jealousy involved with certain people! But still, I think i’m just honest with myself. I am pretty smart, I have a great job which I do very well, i’m a fairly talented sportswoman, have a decent sense of humour. People who know me use the words confident and intimidating to describe me. But i’m average looking and well aware of it. He is not average by anyone’s standards. Hell, even my grandmother, with that special elderly lady honesty, patted me on the hand a few years ago and asked, “He’s a bit too good looking for you isn’t he? I’d be worried about keeping him.”

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      • Em

        Lucinda i think you’re right here. One of my friends is gorgeous, but she is convinced that her (moderately attractive) boyfriend is far too good looking for her, and is constantly paranoid that she’s not hot enough to keep him interested (..its a fairly new relationship). Its great that she finds him so attractive, but she is FAR under-rating her own looks!

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        • El Belle

          Girls do this!

          I have found it interesting all the women saying that the fact that attractive women flirt with their partners obviously means they are the ugly duckling in the relationship. I think these women might have painted a picture for themselves that they aren’t that attractive, and therefore perceive other womens come ons as a comment on this. I am pretty sure the pap shots of women flirting with Orlando Bloom / Brad Pitt etc doesn’t mean M.Kerr / A.Jolie are ugly!

          I do get confused with this too, I have a very attractive partner and have always doubted my looks. I really have no idea where I sit on the attractive scale or if we are matched by others standards. I’ve heard comments both neutral and either way. But, who cares, I am in a relationship that makes me happy, so aren’t I a lucky girl and isn’t this what matters?

          That said, bitchiness is painful. I guess I have a choice of interpreting flirtatious/ nasty female actions as jealousy of me and him and our love bubble OR as an authority that I am an ugly dame punching above her weight. For the sake of my future happiness, it better to believe the first, but easier to believe the second. Ergh, the daily toils of a woman in the first world.

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    • dkmum

      Please take care that your thoughts on compatibility in the aesthetic kind is a miss-match. It can lead to imbalance in your relationship, which can be a killer. Instead just enjoy the fact that you’re with a gorgeous person, he chose you, but you also chose him.

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  14. Tracey Groombridge

    Love Girls my new favourite
    At the end of the day you fall for qualities because even the most beautiful looking person can be an ass and you can only put up with being an ass for so long. You can however learn to love a big nose or small boobs in fact that might be the thing you ending loving the most.

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  15. Anonymous

    Does anyone else think that Lena is the better looking one?

    I think she has a beautiful face, whereas I can’t look at him without thinking of some of the creepy characters he has played (i.e. a paedophile).

    Also, though I can’t offer a man’s perspective, as a woman who loves sleeping with other women I would prefer to sleep with Lena (physically; her character is extremely off-putting) over any of the other characters.

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    • Kitten

      Oh good, that means no fighting over Jessa haha. The others I don’t find attractive and their personalities are so irritating (yet irresistible to watch…)

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  16. Anonymous

    yeah what got me when i watched this episode was that I was completely disgusted that such a seemingly nice, educated guy would go out with somebody so… grose… and i mean grose in every way other than her body… she’s completely repulsive… that made me really sad… but he was at such a low point in his life obviously and just wanted an experience of something youthful and out of the norm… considering his life has just been habit and work.

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  17. Meagan

    What a great article! When it all comes down to it, chemistry is what draws people together on a deeper level than the superficial.
    What is wrong with the way Lena looks?? She looks far more beautiful,healthy and normal than the photo-shopped works of fiction you see on the glossy mags!
    Society needs to get back to reality and accept people for who they are and not judge them for what they look like,because when you love someone,you love them for all that they are,the good and the bad.

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  18. SR

    Sorry but your sister sounds just awful! Just from your comments

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  19. Pingback: Narcissus « smug & smarmy

  20. Leelee

    Small minded people make small minded comments. Look outside your limited perception of reality…

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  21. Lindsay

    Going on looks alone, I’m the “reacher” in my relationship and my partner is the “settler”. I know he’s better looking than I am but he thinks I’m beautiful and that’s all that matters to me. It’s all about chemistry anyway and goddamn, do we ever have that!

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    • Katy

      I’ll bet you’re evenly matched x

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  22. Ads

    Ugly/handsome/beautiful, it is all so subjective. My husband and I are “on par” I believe and by societies standards we are both ‘average’. However to me he is the most beautiful most handsome man in the world and he says the same about me. He is no Brad Pitt, but then I don’t think Brad is that great; I think Angelina should have stuck with Johnny Lee Miller if we are going to judge purely on looks, he is way hotter!

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  23. AT

    I know this is anti the point of the post, but I think Lena looks really lovely with her kit off. Womanly.

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  24. mybloggableday

    What I find interesting is that there is all this talk about Hannah not being good enough for Joshua, but not once have I seen anyone write that Jessa (a babysitter/unemployed artist/horrible/pretentious person) is not good enough to marry a wealthy investment banker. Presumably because she is conventionally good looking?

    I LOVE Girls. Please write about the show more often.

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  25. Michelle

    Like annah, I am married to a good-looking man and I always brace myself for the poorly disguised look of surprise when people meet me for the first time. And I’ve had women flirt with him in front of me (as if I;m invisible) and he’s had plenty of men try to hit on him too.

    But unlike annah, my hubby is not vain and he thinks I;m gorgeous (definitely looks at me through rose coloured glasses!) so I am secure in the knowledge that he loves me.

    But I hate the general assumption that good-looking men are only attracted to other good-looking people. Not everyone is like that. Some gorgeous guys do look for qualities other than beauty.

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  26. Sam L.

    Firstly, I adore Lena and I love Girls.

    I also agree that we shouldn’t pass judgement on the attractiveness of those in relationships or dictate whom should or could date whom. However I have to admit that this storyline didn’t feel as believable, relatable or genuine to me as many of her others have.

    And it’s not because I don’t think Hannah or Lena could/should/would sleep with attractive men. Lena’s real life partner is gorgeous, and I think they’re the perfect match! The storyline merely overstepped that fine line of being a realistic, raw representation of life as a struggling creative in Brooklyn – to being a TV show. Which is fine. It is, however, inconsistent with the shows’ dry and self-depreacating tone and could be alienating for the audience whom take salvation in seeing themselves and their lives reflected in these characters. Would most girls like Hannah end up with a man like that? I know that I became disengaged.

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    • Katy

      I disagree. I think things like this happen a little more often that you would think. People are more complex than are often represented in tv land. The main point to this episode wasn’t about their physical attractiveness pairing but about a grieving man crossing paths with a spontaneous and brief antidote to his pain and loneliness. She was also offered a mirror and some insight into the reason for his separation from his wife (the eventual emotional detachment later in the episode).

      It’s been my favourite episode by far and one I probably most related to of all, as to it’s realistic representation of human nature and brief encounters. Longevity of such a relationship wasn’t even entered into in my mind.

      Awesome show – thanks to Lindsay for the heads up :-)

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  27. Jimmy's Girl

    Buying into an old cliche…. It has been said that a man should settle for a partner who he thinks he is lucky to have. A woman should settle for a partner who thinks he is lucky to have her. Discuss.

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  28. Anon for this and hiding out in witness protection

    I haven’t seen the program (not sure anyone has in Australia, at least not legally) but one point that may have been missed is that this is a short time thing. I think this makes a difference. One thing you’ll hear blokes say among themselves is that are very few women who are too ugly to fuck or to turn it around, the fat ugly girl can always get a root at the end of the night. Personally, as a bloke (and not all that good looking myself), I’d spend a weekend with her but I’d be embarrassed to be seen with her as a girlfriend.

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    • k

      It was legally shown on Showcase in Australia around 2 weeks ago.

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    • Jessiegirl

      I hired season one from Video Ezy…

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    • Anonymous

      Uh, it’s on Showcase on Foxtel. And on Itunes. And Season 1 is available on DVD.

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    • hellburger

      Wow! Can’t believe the only comments to this post were about the availability of the episode! What about the disgusting comment itself – “I’d spend a weekend with her but I’d be embarrassed to be seen with her as a girlfriend” – this from a self-confessed “not all that good looking” bloke. Just confirms what the article was trying to say about men only wanting to date women who look like Victoria’s Secrets models – seems there are plenty out there that do, despite the many that are more intelligent than that.

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      • hellcat

        It was blunt and crass what he said but I gotta give it to him for at least being honest about it. Im a guy and I see it all the time. physical attraction rates very high for most men in the same way that socioeconomic traits generally rate very high for women. I see the exact same shallowness in women only with a different flavour “id never date a guy that didn’t make at least 40,000 a year or was at least 5’9 or didn’t own his own home etc” The fact is allot of single guys that are sex starved will lower their expectations for sex but they have no intentions of dating the less attractive woman they would use for sex. Similarly I see women Do the complete opposite they will intentionally go out looking for the bombshell physically attractive guy without a cent in his pocket if they want sex but they would never tell anybody and they would never date him….. maybe if he owned his own home, same thing happens thousands of times everyday but of course nobody thinks that way when you ask them then there response is only shallow people are like that.

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    • Tarryn

      Wow, you’re a charmer, aren’t you?

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    • Aishie

      Sadly, its probably a fair comment.

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  29. Michelle

    My boyfriend is completely punching above his weight!

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    • Daniella

      Haha, I love it. You go girlfriend!

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  30. ticklishcamel

    I have no time for people who are arrogant enough to believe they know how people think and what they would or would not do.

    You only have to take your head out of your ass for a second to look around and see that we live in a diverse world with people who have all sorts of beliefs, needs and desires.

    Some people couldn’t care less about looks, some wouldn’t go near anyone who doesn’t fit the supermodel mode, plenty are somewhere in between and everyone has their own ideas of what is attractive.

    Stranger things have happened than a conventionally attractive man getting in on with a not conventionally attractive woman.

    In terms of the unsurprising but disappointing double standards of the media, it made me think of that Helen Mirren quote:

    “Really not too much has changed in the canon of Hollywood filmmaking that continues to worship at the altar of the 18- to 25-year-old male and his penis.”

    http://ticklishcamel.blogspot.com.au/

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    • Lizi

      Love that quote – so funny … and so true. Helen Mirren is a smart woman.

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  31. Ski

    All the guys, and most of the girls, I know discuss the opposite sex in a shorthand of scores out of ten i.e “I met this blonde nine today” or “she’s a ten and she’s going out with 5.5″. It’s pretty gross really, but they all do it. In reality though, I do think we mostly end up going for the people we perceive as being “on par” with us in terms of attractiveness. Otherwise one party always end up feeling insecure or inadequate and tht never works out well.

    To quote the perks of being a wallflower – “we accept the love we think we deserve”

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  32. gypsy

    Clearly I’ve been living under a rock because this is the first time I’ve even heard of the show, let alone watched an episode.

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    • agreed

      clearly you have

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      • Annonimo

        Well there’s lots of us under the same rock. Clearly.

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    • kahlapreston

      It’s really great – you should consider watching it :D

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    • princesstan

      I have watched it and hated it. The main character gave me the shits! I think the show is a tad over rated.

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    • Pinto

      It’s super over-rated and nothing that hasn’t been done before but on the plus side creating alot of conversation on related topics.

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  33. Caz Gibson

    Sadly, I haven’t seen this series but will try to fix that soon.

    Starting out as an actress in Sydney some years ago I kind of found a niche as a radio/voice-over character actress where I could “play” anything.

    My usual question in a recording studio is “How old is she?…….can you describe what she looks like ?”
    This is because the writer usually has a “type” in mind and my job is to project that with only my voice.
    Now…if this “type” is tall, slim, 18yrs old, sexy and clearly confident of her appeal to men – I can project that, which is great because I sure don’t look like that.
    If (in the same session) I have to project someone that’s ugly, miserable, mean, and clearly a “dude frightener” – I can do that too.

    As a short “plumpish” redhead though I always wanted to play a quirky girl in a film where the male lead was “dishy & sensitive” and romantically interested in my character, rejecting all of those “skinny, top-heavy babes” – in other words throwing out the “Ken loves Barbie” – style flicks in favour of something more real and definitely more appealing to women.

    Looks like Lena Dunham has had the guts to do it and shown that not all men are “narcissistic and childish”.

    Sometimes they’re able to see beyond the false hair & eyelashes, plucked, tweezered, waxed, bleached, botoxed, collagen-filled, teeth-whitened, size 8, model clones that they’re told to like.

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    • guest

      You don’t have to be a “false hair & eyelashes, plucked, tweezered, waxed, bleached, botoxed, collagen-filled, teeth-whitened, size 8, model clone” to NOT look at Lena Dunham. There IS a middle ground, you know. There is a wide difference between going overboard with plastic surgery, make up, cosmetic procedures, extensions, and just looking like a dump who doesn’t care about herself or her body or her health, yet expects good looking successful to fall for her.

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  34. Annah

    I do think that most people’s reactions are not about the age gap, but about the sexy / unsexy mismatch, (perhaps combined with the socio-economic mismatch). I happen to be married to a very attractive man – people always tell me (and him) how good looking he is. I’ve always felt a slient undertone of “what is he doing with you??” It’s an awful feeling that I think was born from both my own insecurity and also from good looking women flirting with him right in front of me. Openly flirting in front of me. My husband puts himself first, while I tend to my little family first then me last. He has the great clothes, the gym membership, he even got botox last month. I’m telling you, it didn’t take long for him to think he could do better, and it doesn’t take some women long to think that they would be a much better match for your husband either. Granted not all people are like that, but they are out there. He even told me I was getting a little bit plump and a little bit uglier…. so I guess I felt this topic hit a bit of a raw nerve.

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    • Kitten

      Babe, at the risk of coming across as insensitive – why is this man not your EX-husband? You sound lovely, and while this is a very brief portrait of him it’s not a very nice one… I hope he is teeming with unmentioned, wonderful qualities!

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    • SC

      Why are you still married to this person?

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    • Sunshiny Day

      A little bit uglier!!’ He told you that? Kick his ass to the kerb. He has no respect for you. NONE. You deserve better than that.

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      • theoriginalpinny

        Annah next time someone mentions how good looking he is your reponse is as follows: “I KNOW! it must be all the botox…..” then just calmly walk away.

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  35. redqueen

    Right. Because sex is only for thin, beautiful young women and hot, hard bodied young guys. NOT!

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  36. H

    The guy my sister is seeing is not that attractive and he is SO punching above his weight with her. They’re at college at uni and all the guys pay him out. He’s a bit short, very arrogant and we all call him Weasal Face or The Weasal (because of his face). But she likes him because they’re both really smart and can have intelligent conversations, he keeps her on her feet. But yes- I have wondered- WHY WOULD SHE PICK HIM?! SHE COULD GET ANY GUY SHE WANTS!!!

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    • MikeyMike

      Maybe she’s not that shallow ?

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      • H

        Oh i should have mentioned before- she is incredibly shallow. Her ex bf (who we all love and prefer) is very very handsome. She also once went out with a half black guy “because he’s hot and black.”
        I should probably clarify- it’s very unusual for her to not care so much about looks

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        • Michelle

          Maybe he has a big dick?

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    • Anon for this

      Overlook the fact that I sound like a wanker when I say this – but I’ve repeatedly been told that I could get any guy I want, and asked why I’m with *him* (insert which ever bf I’m with at that time. This has been said a few times). It wasn’t a question of me thinking I couldn’t be with someone hotter – it was that the objectively physically unattractive guy I was with was super sexy to me – maybe partly because of something to do with their looks, or simply to do with their amazing personalities, or even their pheromones.

      I’m sure your sister could get anyone she wanted – but maybe she’s happy with her smart ugly weasel :)

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      • H

        For the time being! She says he’s just a “for now” guy :P

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  37. Anonymous

    every girlfirend george constanza had on seinfeld. i rest my case.

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    • Sweets

      Yes!!

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    • silv

      Exactly! Did we hear then, “what’s a good looking lady doing dating George?”….never in a million years.

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      • Anonymous

        Everyone thought it.

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    • FHB

      …and look at how many stayed with him.

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    • anon

      ahaha. best comment so far

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  38. Hannah

    Since when did nobody get their knickers in a twist over Woody Allen and Soon Yi? Although granted, I think they have an entire category of ‘weird relationship’ unto themselves

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    • Faybian

      Yes, it’s called “wrong on every possible level”. I don’t get Naomi Watts and Liev Schreiber being included in this list though. It could be me, but I think he’s kinda hot.

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      • Lucinda

        I think he’s sexy too. Very sexy. And I see others further down said they did too… just goes to show how subjective “attractive” really is. I think Sacha Baron Cohen is cute too. And super funny. I can see why Isla chose him!

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  39. maggie

    Hmmm Patrick Wilson……… :)

    I Am not sure how to judge myself, but I guess I am average to just above looking. In the short time that I was single 4 years ago I ran into a fire fighter I knew. Like the one’s who pose for calanders, smoking hot and the nicest smile.
    Last time I saw him he was dating a model, who I also knew. Tall dark hair, stunning.
    They broke up and he said she was too high maintenance. Somehow he I went home with him, and he treated me with the upmost respect and had a great night! I have NO idea how I managed that!

    He was such a nice guy….

    Now I am with a sportsman who is muscly, tall, the best smile in the world. I think I am punching above my weight. Others say it’s the other way round. My best friend says we are about even.

    But looks aren’t major to me. My last long term partner was over weight but I never really saw it.

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  40. Jennywren

    Funny, I never saw this as a ‘pretty/ugly’ pairing but an ‘older/younger’ pairing.

    I once went out with a 34yo guy who wooed me when I was 18. What he saw in me: youth (natch), curiosity, hope, energy, innocence (eww..) and a taut bod. Plus, I was great for his self-esteem: look what he ‘landed!’. What I saw in him: well, he introduced me to the adult world. Good food, wine, cars, travel, worldliness, clubs and pubs, sexual prowess. I wanted to learn, he wanted to teach and we did that for 6 years.

    Now, the boot’s on the other foot. I’m with a guy 5 years younger than me. Unfortunately, even tho he’s 38 he still gets asked for ID when we go to bars. All this does my self-esteem no favours! But we both have a fun outlook on life and have been married 11 years now.

    Just saying, you never know what a person might be yearning for at a particular time in their lives. And another person might come along and fit the bill, no matter how pretty/ugly they are.

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  41. justvisiting

    I think its odd because Hannah is SUCH an awful person!

    That show just makes me cringe.

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  42. Jess88

    Theres so many qualities besides physical appearance that makes someone sexy. For me, I go for guys who are funny and kind, those are attributes I find extremely sexy. I think Mia is right, most of the time ‘odd parings’ come down to chemistry, you know when you meet someone and you’re just so bloody attracted to them and you cant explain why?

    I think what it comes down to is that when an outsider thinks that someone is punching above their weight when they see an ‘average’ person coupled with a ‘stunner’ the outsider needs to look harder and then they’ll see that obviously the ‘stunner’ sees something pretty damn special about their partner and thats why they are with them.

    Emily over at xoJane wrote a great article about this issue as well
    http://www.xojane.com/sex/i-look-a-lot-like-lena-dunham-and-ive-banged-super-hot-dudes

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  43. Anonymous

    Maybe it’s less about the looks (I personally think Lena is average looking and not ugly as so much of the media seems to think) and more because she has an ugly personality? Maybe if she brought a lovely personality to the relationship everyone would be more accepting of it.
    Also, I need some advice/opinions, and I’m Anon for this because I’m going to sound like a stuck-up cow (maybe I am? And maybe that’s the problem). In the dating game, are men ever too afraid to go for a woman they think is too good looking for them? I consider myself attractive, although not your typical tall, blonde, yet I value my (and others’) intelligence and personality far more highly. And yet I feel that although there are guys that I click with on intellectual level, I’m never asked out by these guys and instead they end up with girls who aren’t as attractive, I just don’t get what I’m supposed to do to show that I don’t really care about looks…

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    • B

      I think there’s nothing more attractive than a woman or man who is attractive and truly, really doesn’t either know it or think that way about themselves. I have a friend who is so attractive in an almost Angelina Jolie way and she is the most fun, lovely person and truly could not give a shit about her looks.
      Maybe they are picking up on the fact that you think that about yourself (no disrespect intended at all!). And that’s a turn-off?

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      • eyeroll

        Why aren’t people allowed to honestly assess themselves as attractive? Anonymous has outlined a problem which is real to her, but because she wasn’t self deprecating and falsely modest about her looks (which would have defeated her getting the honest feedback she needs), she is met with upbraiding, rather than sympathy.

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    • Anonymous

      The short answer is yeah, the more attractive you find a person, the harder they are to approach.

      I think that your plan should be to make the approaches yourself and make it clear to the guy that he stands a chance.

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    • Anon

      Attractive people are intimidating, and that’s a fact! If I see a super-hunky guy I’m attracted to I can barely look him in the eye and stammer out a sentence. And I AM tall and willowy!! Gorgeous guys bring my self-esteem down a notch or three -or is that just me? :)

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    • guest83

      i actually feel for quite attractive women, as i reckon they are sometimes intimidating for guys, and also other women, plus they sometimes don’t need to develop as much personality (all generalisations obviously)
      i am pretty much average looking, like lena (so few people are actually ugly) and i have had my share of partners etc, but it;s also how approachable you are etc.

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  44. Bradley

    Oh, Mia ! To quote Mr Shakespeare….much ado about nothing !

    You fall for whoever it is that you fall for. They can be short or tall, thin or fat, be absolutely gorgeous or as ugly as sin.

    The moment that the arrow hits, you see only what you want to see and the criticism of others fall on totally deaf ears.

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  45. old news

    Love is blind.
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    All old sayings – must have been invented for a reason.
    There’s nothing new in people thinking that sometimes one partner is better looking than the other.

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  46. Kate

    You’re saying that it isn’t fair for people to say that Lena wasn’t attractive enough to sleep with that guy, yet you upload a whole gallery of males who you believe are batting above their average. What does that say about men – that they’re only sexually attractive if they look like Brad Pitt?

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  47. Anonymous

    If every second bloke can be told that they are ‘punching above their weight’ and have a laugh at themselves in the process, then the girls can cop a bit of that, tongue in cheek, without getting all huffy about it.

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    • Bradley

      Because that is not the feminist way !

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      • Alice

        Oh my god bradley, will you stop having a go at feminists every chance you get? Feminists aren’t there to whinge about everything, and usually don’t. But when they “whinge” (fight) when necessary they effect real, necessary social change. Feminists are how women got the vote, got allowed to have jobs, became more supported in reporting and fighting rape and DV, etc etc.

        Every time you make a comment like that, you are emulating sexist, oppresive male voices – even if you think you’re just joking. Every time you make a comment like that, you make feminists more necessary. Thank god we have good people who actually want to fight for women’s rights, rather than just people like you who like to mock women who fight for women’s rights.

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        • Kitten

          Thank you Alice for saying what I was thinking but too exhusted to say. So tired of these snarky anti-feminist (and in other topics, anti-anything-but-LNP) jibes.

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        • Bradley

          Alice, point out any falsehoods in my comment.

          I am totally for gender equality. Anyone who has read any of my comments will know that. I am absolutely committed to gender equality. I just find some feminist viewpoints very difficult to commit to.

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          • Sarah

            But Bradley it’s all about the TONE. You don’t just say ‘this doesn’t make sense to me within a feminist context’, you always feel the need to add a billion exclamation marks and that tongue in cheek tone that YOU think you’re using, but it just comes off as condescending to a lot of us.

            Again, there are a lot of feminists on this site. We are for gender equality too. Please don’t demean our viewpoints. It’s almost as if you’re on this site to look for flaws and I don’t understand that?

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            • Blah

              What they said Brad. You’re getting boring.

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            • Bradley

              In future, I’ll watch my exclamation marks.

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          • Anonymous

            I agree. It is the constant double standard and overstated victim mentality of a lot of hard line feminists that does my head in too.

            re this article specifically, if mia really had an issue with this whole ‘punching above you weight’ concept, why has she never once piped up about it the probable 100000 times she has heard it said of a man in her life.

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          • Alice

            Well the falsehood is that being sensitive to being told you’re not as hot as your partner is a “feminist” attitude, rather than a personality attitude. There are plenty of feminists who wouldn’t get upset over that, and there are plenty of women who identify as non-feminists who would get very upset about it. It has little to do with feminism.

            You might think you are for gender equality, but about 90% of your comments are specifically to mock and belittle feminism and feminist causes (eg “oops, better change the definition of misogyny again”, “careful, you don’t want to be called sexist, boys!” or something). That is actively undermining feminism and gender equality. You say that you “just find some feminist viewpoints very difficult to commit to” – but you weren’t even commenting on a feminist view point. You were just creating an opportunity to bag feminists – for absolutely no reason. You weren’t countering a point. You weren’t responding to an argument you disagreed with. You were just bagging feminists, in general. How is that anything other than inciting hatred and dividing men and women further?

            You, more than anyone else on the site – or anyone I cross paths with in real life – actively seek to divide the genders and belittle women’s efforts to fight inequality.

            If you really are for gender equality and really don’t want to be a sexist douchebag dividing the genders and setting back the fight for equality, then please stop making comments like this. Seriously. I’m not having a go at you, I’m asking you to take a good hard look at yourself and listen to what the women on this site are saying to you.

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          • Sasha

            Hey Bradley. In the hope you’ll get an email notification to this, I would love to hear your response to Alice’s comment below.

            I reckon she’s spot on but I really want to hear you out as well.

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  48. What about the Hughs?

    Remember Hugh Grant with the ‘working girl’ in LA?
    Not a partnership I know and he’s not hot and she wasn’t particularly hot either but just an example of how people pair up for all sorts of reasons – not just looks.

    When I was in uni 100 years ago I started seeing a very handsome guy. I was deliriously happy until a girl friend said “But he’s gorgeous, how did you catch him?” After that I felt insecure and ugly and it ruined my relationship with Mr Handsome. I wish I had realised it was pure jealousy and spite and the girl friend’s own insecurities that made her say that.

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    • chillax

      Now back in the day I thought Hugh Grant was the hottest thing around. The mop of hair, his accent…

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  49. Anonymous

    Gotta be honest. Hannah seems like she’d be fun to hang out with, but sexually, she is a little uninspiring.

    I think that some hot women punch below their weight in a partner for a few cliched reasons.

    They want the adoration that they know a guy punching above his weight will give them.

    The not so super hot guy is less likely to root around. Security.

    Women are more sensitive to social status and financial security in their partner than men are in return.

    Women are more responsive to cerebral qualities than men are on average.

    OK, bring on the reasonably accurate commentary betting that I’m no Brad Pitt.

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  50. bek222

    All I wanna know is, am I the pretty one in my relationship! HA!

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