Keep it ‘classy’, insists Kochie.
BY MIA FREEDMAN
Oh Kochie. Kochie, Kochie, Kochie.
Thank you, I guess. It’s never a bad thing to remind people of the olden days, when men were men and women were……mostly invisible.
When the only depiction of breasts that was acceptable was the sexy kind. When the idea of a woman using her bosom to feed her baby was….you know….yucky.
It’s good to remember those times because it’s a reminder of how utterly absurd they were. And how anyone who still thinks that way is, well, old. Or at least, old fashioned to the point of being way out of step with modern attitudes.
So Kochie, I guess we shouldn’t be THAT surprised by your attitude……
Responding to a story on Friday’s Sunrise breakfast program about Liana Webster, the Bribie Island woman who was forced to leave her local pool after a complaint was made about her breast feeding in public.
Yes. She had the AUDACITY to feed her hungry baby with her own body. At which point Kochie opened his mouth and inserted first one foot and then the other.
“I totally think women should be able to breastfeed in public but I just think they should be a bit classy about it.”
He has two breastfeeding daughters, he points out. But he says if they breastfeed in restaurants, they turn their chairs around.
His problem, he says, is with ‘high traffic areas’. I have no idea what that actually means unless he doesn’t want women to breastfeed in the middle of a road for safety reasons. But I don’t think that’s what he meant.
Here I am breastfeeding in my lounge room, a low traffic area. PHEW.
As I’ve written previously, with over three years of breastfeeding on my CV (not consecutively and not of the same child), there’s not a public place where I haven’t breastfed or expressed. Beaches, planes, shopping centres, parks, airports, restaurants, BBQs, offices, cafes, meetings, parties, weddings, funerals, churches, synagogues…and frankly, I couldn’t care less who was watching.
Oddly enough, I tended to prioritise my baby’s immediate needs over the Elizabethan prudishness of people who have a problem with boobs being used for their natural function. I’m zany like that.
When I’m breastfeeding, my breasts are about as sexual to me as a bowl of Weet Bix. Because that’s exactly what they represent to my baby. Sustenance. Not sex.
I also find the term ‘public breastfeeding’ amusing. Those who oppose it (or express the need for it to remain ‘classy’) always exude a fearful, vaguely alarmed vibe, as if there are groups of marauding mothers using their babies as an excuse to flash their lactating breasts in strangers’ faces: “I know! Let’s meet at Westfield! The first person to flash their leaky nipple to 100 shoppers wins a toasted sandwich!”
As for the suggestion by some that breastfeeding should happen in toilets, I totally agree. As soon as those same people are happy to have their morning coffee made, served and drunk in a toilet cubicle, we shall happily breastfeed right alongside them.
And using ‘mothers’ rooms’ (which tend to be ghastly places), isn’t always possible, particularly if you have more than one child.
My other favourite thing is when people say mothers should be discreet. Or ‘classy’ as Kochie put it.
This is also true. There are far too many breastfeeding women who brazenly strip naked to the waist in public each time their baby grizzles. Have you seen them throw their bosoms around with gay abandon while waving their arms in the air like they just don’t care?
What is wrong with these women? Why do they derive so much pleasure from being almost nude in public? Oh wait. They’re not and they don’t. Breastfeeding mothers feed our babies as quickly and quietly as possible because THEY ARE HUNGRY and SO THEIR CRIES DON’T DISTURB YOUR VERY IMPORTANT PUBLIC BUISNESS such as texting someone while you sip your skinny latte and flick through a newspaper in a coffee shop.
Selfish exhibitionists, yes we are.
If you’re interested, there’s a public ‘nurse-in’ outside the Sunrise studio on Monday morning. You can find details on this Facebook page.
Viva la boobies.
And these are pictures from the Nurse In protest in Sydney.
The Sunrise Nurse In.
Comments
792 Comments so far
This is one of those issues that constantly astounds me is even an issue. If a woman, or a man for that matter, was waving his privates in your face and you couldn’t get away with it, then yes, it would be a problem.
This is not the case with breastfeeding. As you wrote, mothers do it to feed their child, not to get the attention of males around them. Honestly, I feel that the only people who have an issue with this are men who can’t stop sexualising boobs and have to look. You never here women complaining about breastfeeding, or children, or most men, yet its the minority that we’re expected to agree with.
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People who suggest we feed our babies in public toilets make me laugh. I wont even use most public toilets as a toilet so I sure as hell am not going to expect my daughter to eat in one.
I’ve seen several people on other sites commenting on how using the toilet or having sex is perfectly natural too, but we don’t do that in public, which also makes me laugh. I just can’t see how anyone equates a baby eating with an adult doing a poo. If a baby has to eat in private then we all should eat in private.
And as for covering up, if I tried to cover up I would probably end up showing more because my daughter would go mental and thrash about. Once you’ve had a bit of practice there really isn’t much boob on display. Most tops shows more.
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i’m coming to this table late, and so have not read all the posts. I just wanted to say that I don’t know why Kochie’s remarks have caused this furore. I actually agree with him. Breastfeeding mums are not exempt from society, they are part of it, and that requires considerate and civil behaviour towards other members of society. I also breastfed for over two years, a great deal of it in public places.as the babies got older it was actually quite embarassing because they would latch off the nipple and look around at the world and also get quite distracted by noise and surroundings, so i would have an erect nipple on show. I cant be the only mum this has happened to! Even noted world breast feeding associations advise choosing a quiet serene place to breastfeed, which is good for both mum and bubs. It just makes sense to me! Am i the only one? I recall
encountering no negativity from others whatsover. But there are a lot of show off mums
out there who have to show everyone that they don’t give a damn what anyone else thinks. I think its ignorance and also a flaw in aussie culture, a mentality which thinks ‘classy’ is a dirty word.
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I am a few days late to this story mostly because feeding my 12 week old baby takes up quite a bit of my time. But, as you can imagine, it’s a topic very close to my chest right now so I proceeded to write my thoughts regardless of being a few days late to the party.
I started a blog but then changed it to a letter to David instead. If there is one thing I would love him to take away from my words it’s this: I breastfeed in public quite a lot but every single time I do I wince a tiny bit inside. Giving birth to two babies did not flick a switch inside my brain that meant I was suddenly over the moon about whipping my naked breast out in public several times a day. It’s awkward but I do it anyway because sacrificing a smidgen of my modesty is worth it when considering the convenience and benefits my baby and I derive from doing it. I don’t believe I’m the only mother who feels that way. And try as we might to be discreet, babies do no always oblige, so occasionally bare breasts will be seen by strangers, family members, friends and anyone else in the vicinity. I mean this very sincerely; if that scenario makes you uncomfortable, try and imagine how it might make that mother feel? http://notanotherbloggingmother.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/a-letter-to-david.html
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It saddens me that Sunrise will go to great lengths to get publicity. Where are the women on the show Nat and Mel why so silent?
Although i am glad another “women’s issue” has been discussed out in the open.
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Look, I see this issue much like the one where kids in a cafe scream and run wild while mum drinks her coffee.
A considerate mum will keep her kids quiet and make them sit down.
A considerate mum will breastfeed her baby and nobody will even realise.
A self focused mum will let her kids run wild and upset everyone.
A self focused mum will expose her breast and make sure everyone gets an eye full.
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A considerate mum would appreciate any gift given to her or her children. Not whine about how cheap, awful, etc etc that gift was. Especially when given by family members in an act of good will. A self focused mum will complain on her how awful her family members are and how their gifts are even worse.
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Thanks NR, I’ve never seen a woman breastfeeding in any way I thought was offensive. Ever. I wonder if Kochie has been offended or whether he thought we were all desperate for another one of his opinions.
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I do understand this issue from the point of women who are breast feeding, I understand that for them they breast feed so often that they become desensitised to the fact that they are getting their nipples out in public when they most likely wouldn’t do this if they weren’t breast feeding.
Of course breast feeding is natural, and I believe these women have a right to breast feed in public – but can I ask these women is it really so hard on them to do it discreetly and as Kochie said, respectfully? Does it really affect their lives so much to sit comfortably in the shade or cover their breast with a light scarf?
No one wants the mother or the child to be uncomfortable or forced to feed in a public toilet, but I don’t see why women get so riled up about doing small things to make other people a bit more comfortable.
Just like sometimes I need to sneeze or blow my nose, it’s natural and normal and when I’m home by myself I might sneeze without covering my mouth. However when I’m in public I look for a tissue, cover my mouth and turn away from strangers – it’s just me doing little things to make other people’s lives around me more comfortable. As long as doing this doesn’t really affect me, I’m happy to do it.
I’m not part of the older generation, I’m younger than most of the women who write for this website (so its not only old ‘misogynistic dinosaurs’ who share Koshies view) , I hope to breastfeed my own baby one day but if I need to feed my baby in public and people around me feel a little more comfortable by me feeding with a light scarf draped over my shoulder or turning my body for more privacy- that doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t really affect my life that much.
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So, what makes you think these women AREN’T doing it “discreetly”? Because Kochie says they aren’t? I have never in my life seen a breastfeeding mother flaunt her breasts. It’s functional, and that’s exactly how they treat it. Take out breast, insert into baby’s mouth, finish as quickly and quietly as possible. Breast feeding mothers are never the ones “making a scene,” it’s always some uptight stranger who comes over to the poor mother and infant and starts complaining loudly, generally in hopes of getting the breast feeding mother–who was minding her own business to begin with–thrown out of the establishment.
How about instead of breast feeding moms having to worry about anything beside feeding their baby when their baby is hungry, uptight strangers learn to mind their own business and or using the amazing ability granted to them by God to turn their freakin’ head in the other direction if they’re so offended?
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Just because you personally havent seen it happen doesnt mean it hasnt.
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I’ve never seen it either
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I have!! Baby latched discretely to one breast, other breast exposed and dripping milk. And the the cry of ‘oh dear I’m leaking everywhere!’ Lovely. Not.
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I love it when women say what they’re going to do, regarding breastfeeding, when they have a child. Until you actually have that child, you don’t know what you’re going to do. I thought the same thing, but none of my kids liked a muslin draped over their heads. None. They spent more time pulling it off, you spend more time readjusting the damn thing, also more time trying to keep them latched on while you’re adjusting. They’re annoying all round.
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Until you have a child you can’t say really say what will “affect your life”. Some babies benefit from being covered because otherwise they get distracted. For other babies the cover IS the distraction. I would end up showing a lot more boob if I tried to cover up because my daughter with detach and thrash about so I’d be exposed. Without covering up her head covers more of my boob than most tops.
Also, in 40C+ heat even a muslin wrap can be too hot. Try putting your head under a blanket for 20 minutes and see how hot you get.
You don’t have to ” cover up” to be discreet. It’s quite easy to get your nipple out and into a mouth without anyone seeing once youve had a few weeks practice.
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Is anyone else tired of hearing about this?
Mother’s, feed your children – it’s your job.
Everyone else, take a hike.
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Perhaps we should look a bit further at the female co-hosts that enable this type of behaviour in the first place: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/the-women-that-allow-hosts-like-kochie-to-happen-20130121-2d2qu.html
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A great article and so true!
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No one has been able to tell me what a muslin cloth is
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it’s a cloth made from muslin material…
muslin is a very sheer, lightweight fabric. It’s lovely and is also often used to swaddle babies in the warmer weather. Many baby wraps are made from muslin.
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It’s a light weight cloth that is the used usually to swaddle babies in.
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Ok well here’s my two cents.
I had a pretty heated discussion with my dad about this and I reckon he is around Kochie’s age. The thing he said was when he was sitting in a lobby (for example) and a woman comes and sits directly opposite him to breastfeed her baby it makes him uncomfortable. NOW BEFORE YOU FREAK OUT LET ME FINISH…
He said this was mainly for two reasons:
1) He felt it was a really lovely and personal moment for the mother and baby and one that random people (like him) were intruding on.
2) He felt like that was ‘his space’ (not that he owns that side of the room or anything but more like there isn’t anywhere else for his eyes to look but at the mother. Otherwise it would have been that awkward look everywhere but at her moment which could have made things even worse).
3) He did not know how this would make her feel. As an older man his biggest fear here is being screamed at for being a pervert or being told to look away like he was some disgusting man who was so excited that boobs were in front of him.
4) This is definitely not the case and as he did not like any of these scenarios, he felt he should move and walk away, in order to give the woman some more privacy without his eyes directly in front of her. Therefore he respected her wishes, even though she did not potentially respect his by sitting in all the other seats available.
In this instance for example, I can understand what Kochie is saying to the extent that he believes in some instances women could be more discrete or classy because some people (and I assume a LOT of males) are not comfortable openly watching anyone but their wives or people they know breastfeeding. This is because their actions can not be misinterpreted with people they know.
Now I have tried to word this maturely and as clearly as I could. I do think Kochie’s views were old fashioned, but I would be curious to know how mothers feel about men being able to clearly watch them breast feed. For example if a man was sitting opposite you at a restaraunt/ meeting and therefore UNABLE TO AVERT THEIR EYES FROM YOU would you have an issue with this?
I think Kochie (like all people) is entitled to an opinion. At the end of the day we live in a world where breasts are sexualised. The difference at a beach is that you know what to expect and you know you may see more skin than you are comfortable with. YES YES I KNOW that it’s just skin BUT in this world they do have an additional meaning to them. I don’t like that or appreciate that, but it is simply a fact. Doing a nurse-in and showing everyone how your babies needs come first isn’t helping this discussion or changing males view points. Attempting to change the sexual westernised culture towards women and advertising could be a better starting point.
Just like Kochie asked women to be respectful of certain members of the public, you will often find that they will respect you for a little bit more for consideration.
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He could just comment on it to the Mum – if he said something along the lines of “He/she is sure happy there” or “Wow, look at that hair” or “Must be nice to be able to sit down when you’ve got that pram to push around” or ANYTHING, unless they were a total militant lunatic, they wouldn’t be pissed off about it. There’s no need to leave. Really.
And I don’t think it’s all males that feel that way. My Dad, my brother and sister’s fathers in law, my sister’s husband, my friends’ partners and parents have all managed to cope and even hold conversations with me and others breastfeeding in front of them.
I agree about trying to change the prevailing attitude, and I am happy to do that by breastfeeding and not hiding when I do it, so that it does become normalised and just a regular thing to see for everyone, rather than something to freak out and be uncomfortable about. If as you have rightly pointed out (as have many of us) that the prevailing culture towards women is that breasts are purely sexual rather than having anything to do with feeding, shouldn’t standing up (figuratively speaking) and letting people see babies feeding from breasts be part of that? How is my or anyone else’s covering up going to achieve that?
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that’s great that you wouldn’t mind and would be happy to engage in a discussion whilst breast feeding.
But older generations, like Annas dad, want to be respectful of that personal time and are worried that commenting on it will cause offence. I can understand why men, especially those raised to be extremely respectful of women and their bodies, would be worried about watching or being near a woman who is nourishing her child in that way.
By all means breastfeed. But don’t do it publicly and in front of everyone just to get your point across. If there’s a quieter option it is ok and perfectly acceptable to take it.
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I don’t do it publicly to get a point across. I’m just attempting to make life easier and less awkward for everyone involved. And I’m a bit sick of “The older generation getting embarrassed” excuse.
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Why are you sick of it? That’s how some people feel.
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I’m sick of it because it isn’t “the older generation” saying it – its people claiming to speak on their behalf. Same with the ‘”cultural” thing. It’s people commenting and using these groups as scapegoats when the majority of interactions with older people that people have talked about have been positive.
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It’s not just a generational thing- men are discouraged from overtly looking at boobs from the time they areteenagers. It’s obvious why it makes them uncomfortable.
Feed on, but perhaps sit at the bench at the side of th pool rather than sitting poolside and right in the midst of things. Where possible and practical of ourse, but surely common sense could prevail?
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I actually said at the end of the last comment, a problem was described and I answered with a solution. Men are good with this, yes?
And I disagree about the “discouraged from looking at boobs” from when they’re teenagers. How do you explain places like Hooters, mens mag covers, chicks draped over cars in bikinis to sell them, the list goes on. We’re encouraged to see boobs as sexy but not as providing food.
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I think it is a different story of you know the breastfeeding person. He was referring to a stranger breastfeeding in front of him, which is what the “public” is usually made up of… strangers.
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With all respect, I’m sure a lot of women would be uncomfortable with a completely random middle-aged man saying “He sure is happy there!” as you’ve suggested.
There are a lot of ways that could be misinterpreted and for fear of being reprimanded it sounds like he moved away. This wasn’t some 80 year old grandpa admiring the wonders of life.
Anyway. I’m glad the people around you are so comfortable with breastfeeding. I’m not asking you to cover up. No one is. But if there are other options you are allowed to take them without betraying the sisterhood.
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I assume this is directed at me?
By suggesting talking to the Mum (how often does this happen, anyway?) it is a way for the bloke to acknowledge what is happening, and try and remove the awkward feeling.
Maybe if people DID talk to each other more in passing this wouldn’t be an issue. In trying to not make a big deal, it’s an even bigger deal, and it doesn’t need to be.
I’d say from the comments here, there are quite a number of people who want breastfeeding Mums to cover up, actually. It’s not like any of us (that I’ve ever seen in 38 years) walk around with a boob out challenging people.
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Respectfully, the issue as I see it is that breastfeeding needs to become so normal that nobody bats an eyelid. In your Father’s instance I would think that the breastfeeding Mother was just feeding her baby. Simple. It should be no different to if she was to sit down in the very same chair and begin to eat a sandwich.
Your Dad and mine are of an older generation and if they are uncomfortable so be it. They can easier get up and move than the Mum trying to breastfeed. Perhaps it is a younger generation that will benefit from all the discussion taking place. We can only hope…
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I agree. I wouldn’t be offended by it and i don’t think many men are offended by you. They are scared of offending you.
I was just trying to present the view of an older man. I get it. No need to justify yourselves to me. I know you are just doing the best you can
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With respect Anna , BF mums are exhausted , tired, lugging around a baby bag, a 7k +baby while screaming with hunger ( a new crying baby is extremely stressful ) while running errands etc with extreme thirst ……. her options in a , lets face it , not very friendly environment for nursing mothers , is to appease complete strangers under pressure and quickly find a place with a bench or a box etc in a alley , a toilet or walk perhaps miles back to a hot or cold car , all the while while being judged for having her baby screaming with hunger . Or be a responsible mother and exercise her duty of care to care for a precious little human being and feed it . Your father on the other hand probably has no more than a wallet to carry who had a good night sleep ……
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So true Catbones. I remember being caught in the middle of Sydney CBD when my daughter was five months old and needing to feed her. I walked around for about 15 minutes (while she cried in hunger) trying to find somewhere out of the way (AKA A Low Traffic Zone) where I wouldn’t offend anyone. I couldn’t locate a parents room and I couldn’t navigate stairs as I also had the pram with me and a toddler in tow. I ended up sitting in Martin Place on the steps of the GPO.
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Anna , with respect I hope you’re not suggesting you and your father’s values are more important than mine ………
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In today’s society, the female breast is related to sex in the minds of many men. They do not want to equate their favourite sexual body part with the function it was meant to serve. This is why men especially find public breastfeeding offensive. You are letting an infant play around with their favourite sexual part and they can’t touch it.
However if you do have this sexual problem and you are going to get squeamish about a woman breastfeeding then you have two options to avoid these situations. Help public places establish public nursing stations ( not a toilet or a so called mother’s room surrounded by poo and vomit smells with no windows and a hard bench to sit on ) that would be a more appropriate and quiet place for a child to eat their meal. Or two, be “classy” mind your own business and look the other way ……
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I breastfed 3 babies but what the hell is a muslin cloth l have never heard of it.
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I don’t have any children yet (and given the snarkiness of some Mamamia commenters, I realise this means my opinion may not be considered “valid” in this debate), but this whole issue has fired me up. I 100% see where Kochie is coming from.
I’m not a prude at all but I totally understand how seeing a bare breast in public might make some people feel uncomfortable. Think about elderly people who are quite traditional in their views about modesty…. People with strong religious beliefs about modesty… People from different cultures that are big on modesty….
All Kochie is saying is to be a little bit sensitive to these people and their views/beliefs. Breastfeeding is an amazing thing and should be celebrated and done wherever, whenever. But surely chucking a muslin wrap over your shoulder while you do it isn’t a big deal? This debate is not about taking away your rights. It’s not about someone insisting you deprive your baby of food whenever you’re out in public. It’s not about being sexist. It’s absolutely not about knocking the whole concept of breastfeeding. It’s just being sensitive and respectful to others in public places.
Kochie sums it up perfectly in his Daily Telegraph article today: “Being a new mum is a gift. It’s one of life’s wonderful experiences. You are special but you’re still part of a diverse community which deserves all our respect”
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I’d can understand that people from different cultures or religious people might be uncomfortable but in my own experience most elderly people are ok with it. The only people to tell me I’m doing a good job breastfeeding have been elderly people. Not people I know, elderly people who’ve spoken to me while I’ve been breastfeeding out and about.
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You’re defending a man who said just this morning “I don’t mind if women sunbake topless”. What a joke!
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The thing is – breastfeeding isn’t a cultural thing. It doesn’t matter what religion or cultural group you belong to, women’s bodies are designed to feed their babies with their boobs.
I mentioned earlier – of the few people to speak to me about breastfeeding at all when I have been doing it, it’s often old ladies, and they are always supportive and saying stuff like “Good on you, wish I could have done that in my day instead of having to hide”.
People keep bringing this “culturally sensitive” thing up too. I’ve seen Muslim women in hijab breastfeed in public. I’ve seen Indian women, Asian women, Anglo women, European women. So I really want to know which cultures have a problem with breastfeeding in public. I’m just going to put it out there and say that it’s western culture with the problem, because boobs have become so removed from their role as feeding a baby, that it’s cool to wear a dress that needs to be taped in place and that is essentially a long Borat style mankini, but a boob being seen feeding a baby, as it’s there to do, is somehow wrong.
I’m really sick of people hanging this stuff on different cultures and “the elderly”. How do you think they fed their kids?
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Kris2040, I totally get what you’re saying, and yes, breastfeeding is obviously done across cultures and has been done through the generations. The issue (to me, anyway), is not whether or not women should breastfeed in public. Of course it should be done in public! A baby’s gotta eat! I just think there’s nothing wrong with covering up. I may have come across as stereotyping elderly people or people of other cultures – obviously not my intention, I just meant to say that SOME people might feel uncomfortable looking at a bare boob in public.
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My problem with the culture/elderly thing is that so many people are throwing it up, yet with nothing concrete. And many more people are saying that in their experience, it’s the elderly members of the community that are most supportive.
I hate “you’re not a mother so how could you comment” comments, but it is a bit hard to cover up a kid. And even with my big boobs, when my daughter’s feeding, her head is covering up most of it anyway. There’s not much more than would be visible in a low cut top, and as I pull my top up, the top of my boob’s covered anyway.
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I hate to say it Jane but your comment certainly comes from someone who doesn’t have any children yet – did you know some babies don’t like being fed under a muslin cloth or a special breastfeeding cloth. My baby didn’t feed well under one and I tried to use them several times. Breastfeeding for the first time in public is stressful – you know people are staring at you, you’re trying to be discreet. You try so hard not to get your breasts on display, you still haven’t worked out the best way of getting baby mouth to boob via a nursing top without displaying, shock horror….a nipple. Look of course Kochi is entitled to his opinion but his opinion just still comes across as very insensitive. To tell women they need to be classy or sensitive to others and what they might be seeing – well, just remember all of these ‘opinions’ and comments when your turn does come. At the end of the day, your feeding another life, not urinating in public, we all need to not be offended at the site of a ‘breastfeeding’ breast no matter how young or old we are or what cultural background we come from. Breastfeeding mum’s aren’t getting their breasts out to upset others, they’re just trying to feed a very hungry and usually tired baby. Sincerely, good luck when you do have your first baby and want to breastfeed, you’ll appreciate all those that are supporting you to do the wonderful job of feeding your baby.
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I agree Jane!
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As for a muslin over the shoulder, babies get hot when the feed and half the time they would pull it off anyway.
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Well wait till you are a mother and then you will see things differently. I’d like to see you hold a wriggling 5 kg baby with one hand, classily pull down your top and attach the baby AND drape a cloth over yourself. Breastfeeding mothers don’t breastfed in public for fun. We do it because we have to.
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I have no problem with Koch having an opinion about breastfeeding, but why can’t he just be a bit classy and discreet about flopping that opinion out in front of everyone?
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Why oh why can’t Kochie be a bit classy and discreet before flopping his opinion out in front of everyone?
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I think Kochie should show his opinions more discreetly. Perhaps muffled under a feeding blanket.
I could’ve accepted his argument that everyone has a right to their opinion if his morning show hadn’t been full of sniggers.
“Yes we’ll give the broody mares some screen-time, then while making fun of their lame ideas we’ll focus on their wobbly assets. Great for ratings, even in a non-rating period. Maybe even score a Logie nomination. Category… largest collection of knockers shown on morning tellie. Bloody hell, camera-one pan right then close-in, mate. Cor, look at that pair, you certainly don’t get two of them to the kilo.”
As for flashing breasts around; surely various televised wardrobe malfunctions have clearly shown that it’s the vision of a stray nipple that really counts. So having a baby’s head in the way sorta defeats the pervy purpose.
Anyway, from the many many comments here and elsewhere, it seems most Aussies can cope with public breastfeeding.
It’s meat-headed Jurassic opinions that upset quite a few of us.
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It makes most people feel awkward and that’s the issue. I believe in not letting my life detract from anyone else’s so it would be nice for everyone to act in ways to make others comfortable. i’m not saying you shouldn’t breast feed in public, but don’t throw it in peoples faces acting like the child you’re feeding. so please cover up, please… or i shall wait 18 years and suck the titties of your daughter in front of you just to see if its still okay, breast feeding is breast feeding, whatever the form.
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It would be nice if everyone considered your feelings first before they take any actions? I’m sure these hungry babies feel the same way.
Listen, I’m all for being considerate, but you’re asking mothers NOT to feed their hungry babies on the off chance that someone might take offense at a woman using her body to do exactly what it was designed to do. But I can guarentee you those same rubes would be beyond ticked off if that baby just cried and cried and cried… So you tell me, better to let the baby starve and cry and intrude on everyone’s personal space within a certain radius… or to let the mother feed her baby and you just learn to turn your head in the opposite direction when you see something that makes you a wee bit uncomfortable?
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Oh how I wish I was a breastfeeding mum today! I breastfed all my girls but back in the 70s, I had to call into ‘Council Toilets’ and if they were not available, throw a nappy(The cloth version!) over the boob and the child…….I once had the adacity to be feeding at home when my own mother walked in for a visit, her response was “Shouldn’t you be doing that privately in the bedroom or somewhere”. I stood my ground and told her that if she was offended then maybe she could leave. I cannot believe some of the fashions both on and off the beaches that reveal far more than a breast feeding baby would reveal, yet no one seems to mind or comment. Maybe people should do what you do when you dont like a TV program and turn it off, they should simply not look at a breastfeeding mum if it offends them. Good on you mums for doing what is perfectly natural.
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Isn’t offensiveness to do with intent. I’ve never been myself but at Summernats down in Canberra women (at the toot of a car’s horn) lift their tops and expose their breasts and no one complains. I’m not suggesting that this is expected of the women who do it, or more in particular the ones who decide not to, but to the guys who toot the horn or the onlookers they would be the last to be offended.
And then there’s the women we are talking about now in this forum. They are not trying to offend, they are just feeding their babies. No offense necessary.
But then there are those occasions where the flashing of the breasts is meant to be offensive, meant to cause the viewer to be uncomfortable.
I have been out down the city and seen drunk girls flashing themselves at older people. At old guys standing with their wife, women in groups going to the theatre, minding their own business until confronted by a group of drunk and disorderly girls ready to cause trouble.
Equally I have seen guys. Flash themselves so this isn’t an attack on drunk girls alone.
So it comes to intent. Intent is what makes things offensive.
It is like using swear words. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and drop the F bomb that’s not offensive.
If in the throws of passion the F bomb gets dropped, and then picked up, and dropped again, and then again, that’s not offensive.
I am no prude. I’ve been dropping the F bomb since Adam was a boy but when at age 16 or so a group of my friends and I were riding on a bus to see a movie in the city and not long after we got on another group of young people got on. They carried on swearing their heads off. We took offense. Not because of the words they were using, but because there were people on the bus that would have been offended.
We spoke up and told them to pipe down or we’ll join the bus driver in kicking them off (maybe something I wouldn’t do if I was a 16 year old now).
The irony was, we were on our way to an M15+ movie with heaps of swearing in it. But we knew that. We had been warned. But the intent of these other kids was to offend.
So (and I am directing this at all those breastfeeding mothers out there) if your aim is to offend me when you are feeding your child, shame on you. But if (like I imagine you are) just trying to feed your kid, I’m not offended.
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I attended the protest referred to here and would like to thank Mia for her enjoyable article. I went with my 8 week old baby daughter to stand up and feed her in public so that the alternative viewpoint to Kochie’s could be aired. I don’t like his opinion, but respect that he is entitled to it. Thing is, the law doesn’t agree with him, in that it doesn’t imply women are entitled to breastfeed publicly only if caveats of discretion or clasiness are respected. His kinds of comments can, however, breed variable expectations of decorum that are the last thing I need to worry about when I’m trying to feed a hungry, screaming baby. To those who would argue that this is a “first world” problem, and ask of my concerns about starvation in Africa, well, yes- such issues bother me, too. But that’s not what some indignant twat is scowling at me about on the bus when I’m trying for the 3rd painful time to latch an angry newborn and I don’t have the hands (or inclination) to put a muslin between me and her. I don’t need to have any more pressure or anxiety added to the situation by people who might suddenly think that the weight of public opinion is on their side. When my baby is then left starving and screaming and you’re sitting down the aisle after a long day at work/uni/the pub, I doubt you will still care about my thoughts on Syria.
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Okay, well I’ve seen Kochies comment now and while my previous posts about breastfeeding mums still stand I have to say that Kochie was being very old-fashioned and he let his anachronistic attitude slip a bit.
Do I think he’s being mean & non supportive ?………No, but his “classy” reference was clumsy and possibly elitist.
Some women are petite and able to seem extra discreet.
Some women (like me I guess) have much more breast size to organise. Some babies are large & active and the whole procedure is not exactly tidy.
There was no way I was ever going to expose our babies to those revolting public toilets or to any public space that was unsafe.
A breastfeeding mother is so vulnerable and, as I said before, even though I covered as much as possible – some people’s attitudes are gross.
I’m pleased this whole matter is being discussed because some of it’s critics need to adopt a kinder approach to it’s problems.
Women find themselves “out in the world” far more these days……..they’re no longer confined to the house during pregnancy and breastfeeding.
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I am of the older generation but do not believe i live in any dark age. I proudly breastfed 3 babies..not just for a token month or two as many modern mums do but for approx 9yrs. I think i know about breastfeeding when out and about as I was a very busy person outside of the home. I have fed in places like uni libraries, cafes, doctor waiting rooms etc.but Kochie is totally correct when saying it can be done with class. I myself have witnessed some disgusting displays of thoughtless nudity in the name of breastfeeding by classless mothers with other agendas other than feeding offspring.Good on you Kochie…bring back some class when feeding in public.
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There just boobs kochie !!!!!
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And he doesn’t mind seeing them, as long as there isn’t a baby attached to one of them.
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The whole reason people feel ‘uncomfortable’ about seeing a woman breastfeed in public is because a breastfeeding woman is using her body in a powerful and productive way.
Her sustaining the next generation with her body shatters our culture’s patriarchal constructs of women as sex objects whose bodies are deemed as public property – there to be criticised and scrutinised, made to conform to an overtly sexualised image that has no room for a real, functioning human being within.
Your ‘uncomfortable’ feelings are yours to deal with, not a breastfeeding mother. Analyse what it is about a functional breast that makes you feel uncomfortable and stop projecting your ‘yucky’ feelings onto others.
Remove the feeding baby from the equation and see how indifferent your emotions are about possibly seeing a small flash of breast. One is deemed as sexual and OK, as it is for the pleasure of men, the other is non-sexual, functional and life giving – everything that scares the shit out of patriarchy.
Challenge your indoctrination, not those raising the next generation.
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Beautifully put!!!
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Wow, 2 steps forward and 10 steps back. This shocks me as does all the comments about “being discrete”, I was not aware that women were shouting if from the rooftops when they breastfeed, and quite frankly boobs were made for feeding first.
Aren’t mothers coping enough already, we are told breast is best, but not where anyone can see it, hang on you are choosing to bottle feed!!!! you must be a bad mother. The idea that a mother should feel ashamed by whichever way she can and chooses to feed and nourish her child is appalling end of story.
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A public nurse in IS exhibitionist… so I think you’re point is largely lost. Sitting by a public pool half naked is also exhibitionist – no matter whether you’re sunbathing or breastfeeding.
I didn’t take from his comment that Kochie has a problem with breastfeeding. I more so thought his point was about keeping it nice. Most women do, and most breastfeeding tops/dresses allow for public breastfeeding without exposing more than necessary.
Basically, if you would normally not sit in that place half dressed, then just remember that everyone around you is still following the normal dress code and take due care. If that means using a nursing cover in some circumstances, or buying yourself a couple of nice nursing tops, then do so. It’s called MANNERS. If you can’t cope with that, then remove yourself until you can comply with the normal dress code. That’s fair.
And yes, I have also breastfed 3 children.
And seriously… have you breastfed in synagogues and churches? That’s just plain disrespectful. Other people have rights to – for instance, the right to worship in a place of their choosing which they treat with reverence and care, both in how they dress and behave in that place. Your right to breastfeed does not negate their rights. Again, manners. And respect.
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I God had a problem with breastfeeding, surely s/he would have addressed this in the design phase?
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Um… You are offended by the idea of a women breastfeeding in a church? Have you not looked around and seen some of the religious paintings on the walls? I suggest you google Maria lactans or search images of Mary as a nursing mother.
That Mary, tsk tsk. She was just so… unclassy.
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Mary seems to have left her muslin at home.
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When you swim, aren’t you doing this half naked?
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I saw the first chat about this and I feel that David Koch was told to take this stand. He looked uncertain about what to say. It certainly has generated a lot of free publicity for the program.
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Why do we get outraged about someone having an opinion we don’t agree with? Is his opinion THAT important to you? Keep doing what you think is right and don’t worry about it.
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I guess Kochie isn’t this kind of granddad.
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Read an interesting interview with Kathy Lette years ago. She said she was travelling in an aeroplane, first class section, and started to breastfeed her then-infant son. Presently a flight attendant appeared with a screen, and said the gentlemen across the aisle had requested this. Kathy replied something like, ‘They’re the ones with the problem; put it around them.’ I agree. Seriously, wouldn’t people prefer a happy bub being b/f, rather than their first-class flight being disrupted by unhappy screams and wails?
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If you really think about it…….it’s a completely bizarre thing to be talking about. I mean, our whole society revolves around women having children. Birth and death the whole circle of life thing.
To be debating the correct or classy way to feed our babies is almost trying to deny our basic biology.
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Agreed. We are mammals, we feed our young with mammaries. Taking offense to this aspect of who we are is so odd. Perhaps some people would prefer if we laid eggs. Perhaps that why people refer to Kochie as a dinosaur? Maybe he’d like us all to be dinosaurs?
Mammalian and proud of it.
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From what I have read the women let her boobs just hang out.
I agree with Kochie, classy all the way. That means one boob out at a time – not both hanging.
If I were to sit by the pool with both boobs out a complaint would be made.
All my friends fed with discretion – that it nipples weren’t out in the open for the world to see- they were exposed per and post latching.
This is my opinion and I have every right to express it, I’m not being nasty to others opinion so show me the respect.
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Choosing to be anon because I can’t be bothered with evangelistic-non breastfeeding people who think they know what they’re talking about despite never being a breastfeeding mum….
I have every right to express my opinion too.
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Women should be able to breastfeed when and where they need to. However I do not want to see anyone’s boobs thanks. Use a muslin cloth over your shoulder and over the babies head and your boob. Really not difficult. I’ve had twins so I can speak with experience. Call it being classy call it being discreet whatever but have consideration for other people.
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I’m guessing you don’t live in the tropics.
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Hope you don’t go to the beach, because you’re going to see a lot more boob (and bum ), than you would from a Breastfeeding mum. And no, I won’t stick a blanket over my baby’s head while they’re eating. maybe stick one over your head, if I offend you.
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A muslin and a blanket are hardly the something. A muslin is made to let air in and out. It’s breathable as they say. So I’m not sure why you would put a blanket on your babies head.
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I’m not sure why you would put anything, including a muslin wrap, over your kids head, but that’s what people want us to do. and no I won’t. You eat with one over your head if you want. I bet you’ll love it just us much as my baby does. Not.
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Many mums use the muslin cloths when breastfeeding not necessarily to cover themselves up, but to help the baby focus on feeding, rather than spending too much time looking around. Which is what lots of babies do when they are in a stimulating environment. Also, bright lights/sunshine can bother some bubs as well.
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Oh, you mean like how you prefer to eat with a blanket over your head? I’m sure babies just LOVE that.
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Gosh, first world problems yes? Would be nice to see women getting as emotional and hot under the collar about the atrocities in Syria for example! By the way, I am a breastfeeding mother and for what it’s worth, I’ve always thought Kochie was a bit of a tool.
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I could spend all my time getting emotional about what is happening in Syria and it would make absolutely no difference to the people there.
With the breastfeeding issue I feel like it might make a difference to talk about it.
I am tired of the argument that we are only allowed to focus on the very worst things all the time. The really big things, like Syria, we can’t do anything about. I read about it in the paper and as I understand it no government wants to intervene in a way that is actually going to make any difference. Talking about how terrible it is makes no difference, it’s just a big wank to make people feel superior: “Look at me, I’m discussing the atrocities in Syria.” And if I focus too much on all the terrible things happening in the world I become so depressed I can’t function. I’m sure it is the same for many people. I sponsor a child, donate to charities, write the occasional letter to my MP and spend the rest of my time focusing on things where I might actually be able to make a difference/have some impact. And I really don’t appreciate being told by people like you that the small things don’t matter and we should all be focusing on world peace, all the time.
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Great publicity spin. I prefer the Today show anyway, love Lisa and Carl. I breastfed for 13 months and often in public, however I did try and be discreet but that was just me. When I returned to work, I just locked my office door, expressed and then unlocked the door again. I personally think a lot of the mothers protesting are taking the comment to literally, yes maybe not the best turn of phrase by Koch but worthy of a protest? Great free advertising for Sunrise!
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I can’t help but feel that a lot of intolerant comments about breastfeeding or motherhood in general come from a lack of empathy. I hear a lot of things along the lines of “why does she have to breastfeed in here…” or, “women with prams are SO annoying” or “get those kids out of here…” etc. etc. but I think perhaps those people are unaware of what leaving the house with a child involves – the equipment, the regular feeding, nappies, not to mention taking care of all that when lacking in adequate rest. The alternative is that all mothers and children stay confined to the home for the first few years! Instead of having a whine about seeing boobs / crying babies / dealing with prams – wouldn’t it be nicer if society as a whole started to think; How may we better accommodate mothers to make public spaces more comfortable for them?
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Gosh men are stupid. That’s all.
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All of us?
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And all women are moles
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Kochie this morning – “I don’t mind if women sunbake topless”
I mean, how ridiculous. What red blooded Australian hetrosexaual male minds if women sunbake topless? And what has that even got to do with breastfeeding anyway?
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He seriously said that?
talk about adding fuel to the fire. As someone said above, gosh he is a tosser!
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I haven’t taken my own advice and put my nipples in a vice. But, I am man prepared to give my 2cents on the issue … don’t worry, it’s in favour of women! http://senseinthesensless.wordpress.com/2013/01/21/breast-feeding-natural-healthy-and-apparently-offensive/
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just last night Djokovic ripped open his shirt and pranced around the stadium after winning his tennis match. Why wasn’t this outrageous?Weren’t his breasts exposed to the whole world? WAS HE DISCRETE ABOUT IT?
Seriously, take a moment to think about what would have happened if this was a bra-less woman. Fine, condemned, banned, talked about for DAYS on end, the boobs blurred out in subsequent playings of it.
I mean when you put it like this it does seem ridiculous. It is a biological need for women to use their breasts to nourish their children. Just because society has conditioned us to look at breasts as sexual doesn’t mean we should conform.
I am just a teenager without kids, but I don’t see why women should be made to feel ashamed about a body part that they did not choose to have, and secondly why men (who also have boobs, but different shaped!) are allowed to expose them on tv or out in the streets but there’s a riot when we do it. Silly, silly, silly.
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Ooh, interesting point, hadn’t thought about it like that at all! Male nipples: not sexual. Female nipples: sexual as all hell (apparently). Male nipples: not offensive to display. Female nipples: MUST stay ‘classy’.
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Like it or not, there are societal mores that are in place. Men walk around shirtless in summer all the time, most women I know do not feel comfortable doing that. Mens breastsare not sexual organs, boobs, penises and vulvas are. (bring on the pc brigade). Call it biology or social conformation, it doesn’t matter. Djokovic, while acting like a bit of a douche, was not exposin a sexual organ. So if he had ripped off his pants you might have a point. I’m very glad he didn’t.
And yes I know that nursing women are not doing anything sexual by feeding their children, I was respondin specifically to the above comment about mens bodies.
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But what part of feeding a baby acts as a sexual organ?
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Big eye-roll from me. I just read an article on one of the news websites and the woman who came into the studio told Kochie his comments had a ‘shame’ connotation to them.
While I think he probably should have known better than to comment on breastfeeding, I don’t see that his comment had anything to do with ‘shame’. In his opinion, and yes, he is allowed to have an opinion, his comments were more related to the non-breastfeeders (other women, men, children) who might not feel comfortable seeing too much exposure from a breastfeeding mum.
I don’t think there is a single person on this earth who would deny that breastfeeding is a wonderful and natural thing. But people are most definitely allowed to have differing opinions on how they feel about seeing breastfeeding. I don’t honestly think that if someone feels a bit uncomfortable about too much exposure when breastfeeding, they are suggesting that the mother should be ashamed, stop doing it or anything like that.
I really think that there is an ever-growing movement of over-the-top women who are hell bent on shouting from the rooftops about breastfeeding and insisting that everyone should feel they same as they do.
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Agreed. Appears to be a mottley assortment of extremists much like the anti vaccers.
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When babies start dying from breastfeeding, I might understand the comparison.
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you’ve taken that comment completely out of context. It’s merely highlighting the evangelical followings of mothers on certain issues.
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Yes, but my point is that it was a poor choice of comparison.
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I beg to differ. Remove the signs and plackards and you would struggle to identify which camp they’re from.
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Still a poor comparison. Breastfeeding has science on its side. Ant-vax doesn’t. The fact that both “sides” might use common protesting tactics does not the pro-breast feeders “much like the anti vaccers.”
Which is not to say there might not be some overlap among the memberships.
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His comment at the end of the segment last week to start was ‘I think it’s fair enough’. Kochie’s comment absolutely insinuated that the pool staff did the right thing, and they didn’t.
The woman was humiliated illegally. I understand that you don’t think the woman should feel ashamed because others were uncomfortable, but how could she not be? She was told to cover up or move away, that suggests she shouldn’t have been doing what she was doing, that it was wrong.
I am more offended by parents verbally abusing their kids in public or smoking right next to them. I wish in those circumstances an official would go up and say ‘not acceptable, you can’t swear and hit your child because they don’t pay attention to you quick enough’
If people don’t like breastfeeding, they have the absolute right not to stare. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you look into why that is the case. I am offended by the ‘classy’ and ‘discreet’ comments and they do incite shame because it suggests there is something wrong with a woman performing this task, that it needs to be hidden away from a sensitive public.
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But apparently the woman in the pool had both breasts on full display. Which is very different to the ‘regular’ sight of a breastfeeding mother. You can’t disagree with that surely.
Seeing a mother breastfeed is terrific. Seeing a mother breastfeed while having both breasts fully exposed is confronting for many people. It just is. And there is no reason to have both breasts fully exposed while feeding one baby anyway.
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‘Classy’ was the wrong word to use haha…oh dear…
but seriously who cares what Kochie says – he’s so conservative anyway and not sure why we are all surprised at his reaction. I must admit though we have a mum at my boys school who breastfeeds her 2yr old without covering up at all – so its all there for ALL to see
… it made me look twice in disbelief and then I felt awkard but at the end of the day…the kid has to eat and she has no issue with it so why should we?
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Oh Mia, I do love your opinion pieces! The majority of what I would have said have been expressed beautifully by many others, including yourself, but i have a few comments. In my comments, I will refer to David Koch (think that is his name!?) as that ‘person’, as any grown, mature ‘man’ would not make such immature remarks, including my 18 yo son and his friends aged between 17-19 yo. And calling him by his nickname assumes an affection I certainly don’t feel.
1) I’ve always refused to watch that morning show due to that person’s archaic comments on almost everything. If one is not a middle to upper socioeconomic class, white male, I have no idea how any woman can relate to him. (I miss ‘The Circle’ with a wide variety of female opinions or men that are sensitive to non-middle/upper socioeconomic class female experiences that are inclusive to age, race and much more diversity!)
2) I have no doubt that ‘the person’ would be the first to criticise a woman for not breastfeeding. But apparently only if it is on his term of acceptable behaviour.
Sigh! When will these archaic opinions cease…..?
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Can you get bathers for breast feeding? There’s not a lot of fabric in a bikini anyway.
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I think it is fine to feed a little baby in public when they need a feed but l find it makes me feel ill to see an older child being breastfed that would be better suited to having a sandwich and glass of milk. You cant tell me children of that age need to be breastfed in public
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Could you clarify what you mean by “children of that age”?
According to the article I read, Liana Webster’s daughter is 11 months old. Far too young to have “a sandwich and a glass of milk”. And most certainly not too old to be breastfed (in public or otherwise).
The World Health Organisation recommends that children should be breastfed for a minimum of 12 months – in fact 24 months or more is preferred.
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i think 12 months is well long enough to feed. One of the mothers on Sunrise looked as if she was feeding a child of around 3 to 4 years of age. Over the top l think the mums wont let go.
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Is that your professional opinion anon, 12 months? Or just what you would like to see? I didn’t know I was being over the top for breastfeeding two of my kids to the age of 2.
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The World Health Organisation disagrees with you.
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Firstly, I think you should feed until your baby self weans, but the world health organisation set recommendations for the WHOLE WORLD. So they recommend that children are fed until a much later stage in life in third world countries as they are not able to have access to nutritious foods and clean water.
Here in Australia, we don’t NEED to feed our babies til they are 4 because they can get good food and clean, safe water.
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Mia, that is a beautiful picture of you and (insert childs name here).
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I’ve been watching this blow up on FB, blogs and sites over the last couple of days. I’m not going to get into how much of a tool Kochie is or the whole ‘discreet’ thing (blah) but I will say this: I have breastfed one babe until she was 18 months old and am still feeding my 10 month old and I have never (never) been made to feel uncomfortable and I’ve fed everywhere (including at my local pool, in bathers!). The only people who have ever come to to me have been older ladies saying how beautiful it is and (sob) a couple of times women with babes saying how much they wished they could have breastfed their children. My husband has always been incredibly supportive of me breastfeeding our babies and this has been so wonderful.
Thats all. Just from reading these comments it looks like the world hates breastfeeding mummas, and I don’t think the world really does.
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My last contribution….
1. Respect is a two way street. You earn it if you give it.
2. Feeding “discreetly” does not require placing a tent over yourself and bub. Perhaps invest in a proper feeding bra that only exposes the really important part of your boob (and the bit bub requires) instead of wearing lacy numbers or crop tops. Also dress appropriately (easy access to said boob).
3. I feel this debate has actually harmed all the good work out there trying to educate about the importance of breast feeding. Too much attention can actually cause a back lash.
4. Finally any discussion comparing feeding a baby in public and defecation, eying off boobs in magazines etc to me is abhorrent!
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I mean seriously, Kochie’s comments were outdated, but do these mothers have nothing better to do than go “protest” against comments? It’s not like they have to revolutionise against a popular view, I would say in my experience 10% of males have a problem with “unclassy” breastfeeding..and none with so called “classy” breastfeeding. So is it worth it for these mothers to go protest? There are wars, AIDS, humans right issues etc in the world, but oh no, the most important thing for these women is to get validation from a TV show host who it is widely accepted has outdated views on this particular issue.
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It seems, looking at the responses across social media there are a lot of people who share his views. I understand it, even if I don’t agree, it comes from a different era, but we don’t want that shame to carry on to a new generation. There is no such thing as ‘classy’ and ‘unclassy’ breastfeeding, which has yet to be defined to me.
You are right that there are so many crisis issues in the world, but this impacts the first vital bond in a child’s life.
We are talking about a cultural shame that discourages women from doing something that is so important for their child’s current future health and a great bonding experience with benefits for mum and bub.
The most important thing to these women is their child, and every mother will tell you they will fight to the death for their child.
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