Jeremy Irons says, “any woman worth her salt” can handle a pat on the bottom. After decades of political correctness, how much chauvanism will a modern feminist accept?
I was brought up in a strong female household where the women had more degrees than the males and we could carve our own roasts. Even my favourite childhood books were about a female plumber, “Mrs Plumb” and her house-husband, presents from my godmother and her girlfriend.
Which is why it surprised me recently when some out and out chauvinism made my day.
I had woken up feeling fat and ugly. Maybe not literally (with the benefit of hindsight) but I had one of the days when my hair, skin, face and thighs showed the strain of a few weeks of hedonism.
Instead of hiding behind tracksuit pants and a headscarf, I decided to address the situation head on and go for a walk.
As I took off wearing what I thought were some exceptionally unflattering lycra tights, I started the usual female self-abuse by mentally cataloguing all of my flaws and comparing myself to friends and celebrities wondering if my bottom had sagged so low it had hit my knees yet.
That was until I heard a car horn beep repeatedly and insistently. Oh crap, I thought, someone I actually know has recognised me – from behind no less. Could this get any worse? As I looked up ready to die with shame, a tradie van drove past, one young bloke yelling out the window at me and the other beeping and cheering. “Wooooo hooooooooo sweat heart, YEOOOOOW”.
Instead of feeling any form of sexism, objectification, or repulsion I felt good. I smiled in spite of my feminist self. And what’s wrong with that? Did I feel like a piece of meat? Hell no. It was an innocent 5 seconds of those two bloke’s day that made me feel a bit better about myself for the rest of the afternoon.
So what does that say about me? That I need a man’s approval to feel good about myself? Or that my worth is measured by my rate of attractiveness?
I think it just means I think too much. Sometimes it just feels good to feel like a woman, and the woman in me likes her men to be stereotypically men – or at least one from the 50s.
I automatically smile femininely when a man holds open a door for me. I feel my eyelashes flutter lower when the butcher offers to walk my bags to the car. But why do I feel guilty about becoming more feminine in the presence of masculinity? And it seems I am not alone. From a friend who admits to flirting her way out of speeding tickets (how I’ll never know) and an ex-colleague with an otherwise baritone voice who could reach a breathy pitch that seemed to render the male senior partner in her law firm incapable of refusing her blatantly excessive annual leave requests.
It’s time we started to take things less seriously. I am no weaker as a female because I allowed a kind man to give up his place in a taxi line for me. And to be honest, I find it less offensive for the 60yr old male newsagent to call me “darl” than the 15 yr old girl with too much eyeliner at the coffee shop. Especially if it means I get served first.
I often think that, in many respects, many of the complexities of modern domestic life would be avoided if women performed the lions share of traditionally female “tasks” and men did the manly jobs. I can guarantee I do a better job pruning and prettying the garden while my husband mows in a fraction of the time it would take me. Plus he gets to use power tools and that makes him feel good.
Just as I am happy to do this dishes (read: stack the dishwasher to the brim) if he takes the rubbish out. We play to our strengths and there’s no argument about who’s doing what.
So what’s wrong with that? Am I a bad feminist, a hypocrite or perhaps as Madonna identified herself in the 90s, a “humanist”? It’s time we started playing to our strengths and acknowledging our weaknesses without thinking it makes us any more or less of a woman.
Let’s face it – it’s just too hard to take the bins out in high heels.
Am I a bad feminist, a hypocrite or just a typical female?
Julia Alexander is a former lawyer, stay at home mum, documentary producer and wannabe Alpha Wife. She is currently finalising her first documentary about a female body sculpter, Beauty of the Beast
Comments
207 Comments so far
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Of course you felt good; you’d just been given a compliment!
I still like men who act chivalric and I feel the same way about them holding doors for us and as you say, walking bags to the car.
You’re right – people need to not take it so seriously. I honestly think it comes down to the intention of the guy. If he is being kind because he feels sorry for you or being helpful because he thinks you are weak then his actions are obviously wrong. But most of the time they’re are truly just trying to be nice, and I love that.
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“I felt good”
I do not think this is unusual – although I do know girls who find it offensive. As you age you will, of course, need to find other ways to “feel good” about yourself… I guess you will worry about this in the future.
“And it seems I am not alone”
Is that an argument for why it is ok?
“I find it less offensive for the 60yr old male newsagent to call me “darl” than the 15 yr old girl with too much eyeliner at the coffee shop”
Why would you find it offensive when an awkward 15 year old calls you “darl”??
“Let’s face it – it’s just too hard to take the bins out in high heels.”
Um … excuse me?? Why would you do this? Are you a bit … slow? Or are you hopeing a car of men will drive past?
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I really liked the article, and the very cool blog
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This post resonates with me. I am all for women being treated equally, but will still bristle at the sight of a man pushing in front of a woman, or taking the last seat on the train while women stand.
I still melt when a man cooks me a meal, opens the door for me, lets me take that last seat. It shows he has a caring side and that he respects women. Then again, I am all for balance. If someone cooks for me, I will repay the favour. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
(Quick thought: Anyone noticed that we are experiencing a generational shift in the kitchen? More and more men are becoming chefs and cooks, and it seems like the kitchen is becoming more of a male domain)
Sorry about the random thoughts, a bit muddled today.
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I can attest to that. I really like cooking and I plan and execute most of our meals. However, when my husband gets home from work the first thing he wants to do is help me in the kitchen. I can be a bit ungrateful for that, especially if I feel like he’s taking over my space, but it is good.
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My man does most of the cooking in our house. I really don’t enjoy cooking at all. I do all of the cleaning up and dishes. Works well for us.
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I wouldn’t say that you’re a bad feminist or a hypocrite, quite the opposite. I think you’re just a typical female raising some questions that should be asked. Well done. I believe some feminists deserve praise for advocating for fairness and justice on behalf of women over the years. Today, women have equal opportunities to succeed. We have female Presidents, Prime-Ministers, and CEO’s of some of the world’s biggest companies, making the most important decisions is evidence of this. For the most part things have changed for the better in this regard.
Then we have female extremists and they shouldn’t be mistaken for feminists. They are a negative force and a threat to relationships. They’re about creating and “winning” power battles against men – they’re not about equality. Their general motto is — “what you men do, we can do better” and “why should women do it when you men can do it”…they constantly come up with power battles that go against the grain of what is generally considered natural or normal about women, men, and relationships with the aim of getting the edge over men. This isn’t feminism, its not even bad feminism, this is female extremism. Power battles threaten the identities of women and men, and leave us wondering whether there really is a difference between men and women anymore…where’s the line?
These power battles are unhealthy for relationships because they are designed to be win-lose in favor of women, as opposed to win-win for both. Obviously this can’t work in the long-term. There will be conflict and inevitably at some stage the couple will break up. Ever ask yourself aren’t there any “real” men or “real” women in the world anymore? If you dig deeper, you’ll see that there’s a link to a power battle..big or small;)
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“Let’s face it – it’s just too hard to take the bins out in high heels.”
Was thinking “oh dear” most of the way through this article…then got this pearler of a comment (above) and realised it must be satire.
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I just read this today and whilst I don’t think the artcle was ground breaking, I thought it was a fun and light one to read. I agreed with some of her comments and some I didn’t, but my goodness, some of the commentors have gone a bit far. All I can say I lighten the hell up! Why over think everything and make it all seem so negative? How did we get from whistle and cat calls from a passing car to rape? Get a grip girl and take it easy.
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I think the debate raging here in the comments shows exactly the misconceptions out there about feminism, and how it’s began to be perceived as wanting “sameness” rather than “equality”. They’re two very different things: feminists don’t want women to BE men, they want to be treated equally, and with that, comes equal responsibility.
I agree with Julia’s assertion that females and males are inherently different, BUT, this does not warrant them to have to fit into doing what society has decided to be “feminine” and “masculine” roles. THAT is where I have the biggest issue with this article.
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You say, “I agree with Julia’s assertion that females and males are inherently different, BUT, this does not warrant them to have to fit into doing what society has decided to be “feminine” and “masculine” roles. THAT is where I have the biggest issue with this article”.
But have you missed the whole point of the article? The author says (1) I’m happy to perform roles and interact in a manner which is considered stereotypically female – right down to enjoying a bit of “part time chauvinism”; (2) is that really a bad thing; and (3) does that conclusion make her a bad feminist, a hypocrite or just a typical female? In short, she doesn’t say women must adopt “female” roles but rather, is it really a bad thing if a woman makes that choice? And if she does make that choice can she still call herself a feminist?
It seems that the question Julia poses is indicative of the conundrum that faces many generation “Y” women today. On one hand they have the benefit of their mothers / “fore-sisters” etc who have fought hard and valiantly for women’s rights and equal opportunity. They’ve been socialised and schooled to be independent and strong, to go out into the workforce and succeed in areas which were not previously accessible (or less accessible) by women of previous generations. And woman are doing that in the droves – they’ve nailed it. Some would say “feminism” as it was originally intended has succeeded and the construct is dead, others would say the construct has a long way to go and most would say something in between – some type of “nu-feminism”.
But on the other hand – having performed to the feminist expectations for most of their life, educated and intelligent women now seem to be faced with an internal struggle and guilt when they realise that they are thinking not so feminist thoughts, such as (1) men and women are actually respectively better at some things – and the basis for that inequality is biology; (2) that many “feminine” and “masculine” roles which are thought to be “traditional” actually do work; and (3) when men act in “masculine” ways (e.g. wolf-whistles) it makes them feel “feminine”.
Like the author says, get with the program – men and women are not the same; each play to your strengths; each accept your short-comings; what’s wrong with that? Does falling into a typical role revoke your right to call yourself a feminist? Clearly the answer is no.
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You have totally missed the point.
You certainly are not a feminist.
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Ultimately, it comes down to the couple and what works for them. A couple has a unique personality and character, just like individuals do. What works perfectly in one relationship, might not work at all in another. It comes down to the woman and the man in the relationship and what they’re both(key word) happy with – the general views of society in this regard shouldn’t matter because these decisions are made based on unique personal circumstances.
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I think the comments support what the writer is saying – everyone takes themselves so seriously!
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Woman brought up in feminist household makes the following statements: “Woke up feeling fat & ugly … usual female mental self abuse … comparing myself to friends and celebrities…” and her “feminist self” gains pleasure and validation from two hoons in a van – how nice. And I love this bit: “Sometimes it just feels good to feel like a woman, and the woman in me likes her men to be stereotypically men – or at least one from the 50s.” Obviously not much learnt from the feminist upbringing. Blah blah more of the same. “Too hard to take the bins out in high heels…” poor luvvy, what a silly, flippant statement to top off a silly, contradictory and rather offensive piece. From what I read, I would consider you to be both a bad feminist and a hypocrite. And poor proofreader to boot. Sorry – fail.
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it still says “sweat” instead of sweet today….
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The grammar in the article is appalling.
The content? Made me hope we don’t read any more from Julia. Sorry, Julia. (Be a good girl and make me a cup of tea, thanks Honey.)
Errr
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Not to ignore the importance of grammar but was there anything of intelligence to offer?
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I’ll just add one more thing on this topic, and it’s that those “innocent” wolf whistlers aren’t saying “oh, what a nice, pretty, intelligent looking girl, I want to marry her and live happily ever after”.
They are saying “I want to do you given half a chance” and there’s an implied violence and sense of entitlement there.
Ok, my story? When I was 18 and in a foreign country and on my own I had to deal with a lot of that bullshit. A lot. One wolf whistler I came across in the market place pursued me and flattered me and asked me for dinner at his place. I was young and dumb and kind of liked the attention and didn’t have anyone to say AVOID THIS SLEAZEBAG and I stupidly said ok, went home with him and of course after that I wasn’t going anywhere.
So he raped me and it wasn’t very nice and yeah it was my fault and you move on and everything but it kind of sours your take on things. I’m not saying every wolf whistler is a rapist but I’m saying the intent behind the attention isn’t always all fun and games.
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Wow, using my story (without my permission) to link to an ad about games?
Not cool. Sorry I shared.
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What ad? I don’t understand.
With regard to your comment – it’s not your fault.
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Where I used the term “fun and games” the “games” was turned into a blue hyperlink that sent you to an ad for games.
It has since been unlinked. Thank you, admin.
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Helena, I’m so sorry you had that awful experience. IT WASN’T YOUR FAULT. It was HIS fault.
I was very young and naive at 18 too, and in retrospect, put myself in risky situations but was lucky.
Please don’t blame yourself.
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Thanks Eloise
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I did some dumb things and put myself in really risky situations too, it’s pure luck that nothing horrible happened to me. Don’t ever blame yourself x
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It wasn’t your fault in any way. 99% of the time when a woman goes to a man’s house it is normal, safe and uneventful. The woman can’t be blamed for not anticipating that the man is a psycho and that the 1% occurance will take place.
On a separate note, men leer and wolf-whistle at any female, attractive or not. I don’t see it as a complement, but as a reminder that to them I’m just something to f***. It makes me feel unsafe, for exactly the reasons Helena has been unfortunate enough to have to mention.
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Your story is a very unfortunate one but I feel completely irrelevnt to the article.
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How about a decent article on Feminism. One which addresses the inequality and fight for basic rights faced by many women around the world. This sort of fluff just confuses women and men and on what Feminism is, what has been achieved, and what still needs to be achieved.
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Or how about a “real” article about how intelligent women who consider themselves as feminists are now faced with a society which has fundamentally changed since the word ‘feminism” was first used?
Or how about a “real” article about a new movement of women who have had the benefit of the changes which have occurred to society as a result of feminism now feel guilty and/or are judged by other women for identifying with traditional male/female roles?
Isn’t that what this article is about? Perhaps you didn’t understand the underlying message in the “fluff”?
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I recently was squeezed on the bum by a customer in a restaurant and when i put it to my boss i was met with humor. As though it was funny and i should take it with good grace. Can’t say i appreciated that
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When I was waitressing in a nightclub and had both hands full I was grabbed between the legs – from the front. I told a security guard and he just had a word to him – until I told him that it was completely unacceptable and to kick him out. He then did. You’d think the security guy would realise that by himself. Some men evidently have no idea.
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yeah the fact that the customer had also asked if my bum was on the menu was just so delightful. He came in a second time and asked me to walk for his wife because i had a great walk. Which was topped only by his third time in the restaurant where i narrowly missed him pinching me on the arse and only because the chef shook his head at him
HIDEOUS!!!!
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you ladies ever seen how women behave toward blokes when they are on hens nights. It isnt a one way street- infact, women often behave in ways that would get men locked up, and no body bats an eye.
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I actually think Hens nights are also revolting. I once worked as a performer in a theatre restaurant, i was young and cute so i spent quite a bit of the show in not much more than a leotard and tights. Which i assure you was not by choice. However and one night after finishing the show i was having a drink with the cast at the bar when an audience member came out of the main area and threw a big bunch of keys in a mans face. After she left one of his friends turned to me ( i hadn’t even spoken to him} and said “See what you did?”. I had to wait inside the venue for 3 hours waiting for his girlfriend to leave. So yes i know what goes on and i think people need to learn to behave in general. Also not quite sure Anonymous you are trying to insinuate by telling me how women behave at a Hen’s night when the restaurant i currently work at is a fine dining one Not one association with drunken people and strippers. Thanks ever so
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You are absolutely right!
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Wow, I thought that this post would be a man-bashing diatribe about wolf-whistles and inappropriate behaviour. Instead Julia Alexander has written an honest appraisal of how a lot of women feel. It’s a shame her moderate article has induced so much rage from the resident rabid feminists at Mamamia.
Going by the comments, it seems that a wolf whistle is beyond the bounds of decency. It’s funny how, while decrying wolf whistles, Mamamia feminists happily click on articles such as ‘hot tradie’ in MM and elsewhere. Tell me you don’t!
Rather than being devisive, how about following Julia’s lead with recognising that there are two strands to male/female attraction. Is there a feminist here who has not tried to flirt her way out of a speeding ticket?
As for domestic chores, realistically at the end of the day, feminists, those of you that live with men, who does the heavy lifting, outdoor jobs, and who does the inside chores? The answer is it doesn’t matter, a sensible couple makes their own arrangements. It is only the rabid feminists who insist on assigning blame to men for these and other relationship issues.
It is also only rabid feminists who insist on the mythical ‘glass ceiling’. Given that we have a female prime minister, female governor-general, and many female state premiers, this would seem to belie the notion that women can’t rise to the top. They obviously have and continue to do so, just as men do. Gail Kelly runs Westpac Bank.
Modern day feminism is a misnomer. Women aren’t discriminated against in society. If anything it is men who should complain about discrimination, however men won’t complain.
Get over yourselves, enjoy the occasional wolf whistle, if you’re fortunate enough to get one, and get on with your life instead of perpetuating the misandry and man-bashing that you are currently focused on.
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I agree with the majority of your post and think people need to chillax (as my kids put it). The majority of wolf whistles are harmless and vastly different from actual harassment. While I can do the mowing etc, I’m happy not to, just as my husband never cleans toilets (even though I’ve shown him how to), but both of us are ok with that. I do disagree with men not complaining about being discriminated against. Try visiting the punch sometime and you’ll see men complaining very vocally (some with links to male interest blogs).
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It’s early, so I’ll just focus on the wolf-whistling.
Imagine if you’re walking home from your taxi/bus/whatever and you’re alone and a car full of guys pulls up and they start whistling, or cat calling, or making gestures or, as happened one, memorably, to me, lean out of the car and try to pull you in with them. That’s not harmless, that’s terrifying, to realise that you have to be on guard every time you leave your house. No one needs that.
We also recently had several newspaper articles which planned our PM’s wedding, which she isn’t having. Don’t you find that a bit strange? They probably wouldn’t have done that if she were a man.
ETA: That time the guys tried to pull me into their car? It was 7:00pm in summer, so not even the ‘dark alley’ that women are meant to avoid.
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Notice I said mostly harmless. I’m quite well aware that some equates to harassment or worse. Someone tried to drag my daughter into their car through a drive through window. Being a woman and mother of 3 girls, I try to teach my girls to be careful, but not to let fear rule your life.
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So, Julia has put forward a view of how some women feel and Gig approves.
Other women on this site put forward their feelings and Gig does not approve.
As a person who is not female I’d suggest that you are not in the best position to know whether or not women still face discrimination.
And before you accuse me of being a rabid, misandrist femnazi- get over yourself (just reiterating your advice!)
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“Modern day feminism is a misnomer. Women aren’t discriminated against in society. If anything it is men who should complain about discrimination, however men won’t complain.”
Err how about the overwhelming amounts of sexual and physical assaults by men towards women, the unequal pay, the unequal division of domestic duties? The list goes on. Women DO get discriminated against, far more than men.
I agree with with Julia that there’s a confusing conflict between wanting equality and liking the benefits of the division of the genders, but your comment, Gig, is very unhelpful and completely unfounded.
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Reow!!!! Everyone is so catty, I’m a better feminist, no I am, no I didnt put my kids in childcare, I’m a sahm??? What the ? Yes let’s all do the dishes w hs thumb in our bum and feel feminine. I think it’s cute the tradies gave u a ego boost. it happens they’re good at that. Funny cos we aren’t dressed up but they still love it
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What a great article. I don’t care which of the three you are, lady I think you’re honest, thoughtful and cool. I think we’re all a bit confused sometimes and some days don’t even know if we’re Arthur or Martha!!
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I wonder how old the writer is? It seems to me women in their 30s and up seem to beat themselves up more over this stuff. I’m 25 and the girls I know, a wide variety, just get on with living.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m very aware of feminism and very grateful for the benefits I reap. But like the author wonders I do believe sometimes people just think too much.
I also don’t like the neutering of the sexes that feminism often reaches to. It’s a biological and scientific fact, men and women are fundamentally different. You can argue it’s a social construct if you like, but we are different and sometimes feminism goes too far in neutering those differences or pretending they don’t exist. Sometimes I just want to bang my head in frustration and say let men be men and women be women. Don’t overthink it. No one wants to go back to the 1950′s but there has to be a happy medium between yesteryear and politically correct feminism taken too far.
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*face palm*
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” It’s a biological and scientific fact, men and women are fundamentally different.” what is this comment based on?
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Umm, a simple look inside a baby’s nappy will show that. A single chromosome can make changes that produce different genitals with extra production of different hormones that probably produce different behaviour. Surely you’re not trying to say that we’re exactly the same?
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Not to mention the extensive research that has shown how male and female brains are structured differently.
Males have the connection between the left and right hemisphere’s severed.
Or the way males and females have drastically different levels of certain hormones e.g. testosterone, estrogen.
We are different.
It’s not a bad thing
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I actually think the push of “there’s no difference” from women (and it is always militant feminists) comes from a feeling of inferiority.
Like with multiculturalism – I’ve had people attempt to shout me down as racist for commenting on different cultural groups – that’s what MULTI means.
Males and Females ARE different. What is wrong with that?
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“Males have the connection between the left and right hemisphere’s severed. ”
i think you should probably check your facts on that one… this is a medical condition associated with severe behavioural effects. DEFINITELY not present in your average male.
though I’m not doubting there are significant gender differences in both brain structure and function
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Love your point Julia, you are seeing balance as a post modernist feminist and should be proud of your story.
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postmodern feminist? or post-feminist? Two very, very, very different paradigms of feminism.
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When walking down the street one night with my friend and her gorgeous 18 year old daughter there were a few honks and callouts to be heard. She was duly flattered. Though no stranger to such events in our youth, her mother and I were confronted with our age and the all too keen awareness that those days are mostly gone. My friend’s daughter said to me “surely you still attract those whistles” … to which I replied … “honey, sometimes I do … but if they’re too lazy to stop and ask me for a date I aint interested and I aint flattered … ” I continued on to explain how it was easy to flatter from afar, but this world was in dire shortage of some men who were manly enough to ask my name politely. 50′s chauvenism … meh … But 50′s manners … there’s something I’d find flattering …
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This article just didn’t sit well with me.
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Also thought it interesting that Julia is introduced as “a former lawyer” before anything else. God, law has become all about status hasn’t it. Why would someone be introduced by refering first to something they used to do. Documentary producer sounds way more interesting to me.
(Joey Holler is a former admin assistant, lovely (sometimes moody) girlfriend, good feminist, critical Mamamia poster, who works as as a… marine biologist saving the rare white toothed whale.)
PS. I don’t know that Julie wrote her own blurb so this is not a judgement on her.
PPS. Even though I really disagree with your thoughts, Julia, I hope I am not coming across too bitchily, I am really glad you wrote this article. I know it is way harder to write an article than write critical anonymous comments the way I am!!
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I am a moody (sometimes lovely!) girlfriend, myself
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Phew- I’m glad I’m not the only one!!
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Inferiority complex, anyone?
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As Joey said, “Why would someone be introduced by refering first to something they used to do.”
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this taps into a completely different issue – the condescension that is so often associated with being “just” a stay at home mum…..
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i guess it’s a bit of a ‘sign post’ or a reference point for opinion and argument forming, as well as lending credibility to any legally based posts. I imagine similar bios would exist for anyone who was a Dr….
I suppose you’re right, it is a status thing. But at least it’s a status based in intelligence and hard work rather than this new Kardashian/Hilton style of status!!
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Jeremy Irons says, “any woman worth her salt” can handle a pat on the bottom.
The thing that sticks out to me in this sentence is “can handle”. We may not like/approve/encourage the pat on the bottom, but we can deal with it and move on. And this may very well include a terse comment to the man.
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Any man I’m not friendly enough with to pat on his bottom, who pats me on the bottom will get a slap to the face. Hope he can handle that.
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Amen.
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I’m also with you on that one! Grrr, makes me fume just thinking about it
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Yeah I agree. I don’t think it was quite the attack on women that people seem to be making it.
If someone went the grope on me, I’d have no hesitation grabbing their hand and holding it up for all to see and commenting loudly. That’s handling it.
Why does “handling it” have to mean “sitting there and taking it”?
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Wow, reading through most of the comments and seems to me people need to lighten up a little and relax… It’s just a wolf whistle, stop over thinking it.. The “wolf whistlers” sure aren’t!
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I just don’t get how someone can feel flattered, to the point of it making them feel “better about themself” when the kind of guys that wolf whistle and honk are the kinds of guys who do that to every female that passes their way. Talk about low aspirations. =/
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Thats exactly how I felt about it. How can any Woman feel flattered when the wolf whistles are meant to be negative to the woman they’re doing it to and Womankind. I’m generally flatteed by a positive comment Not negative connotations.
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How are wolf whistles meant to be negative to the woman receiving the whistle? Genuine question
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Because it isn’t a compliment, there is no charm to it.
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How do you know? Pretty big assumptions you’re making there Joey!
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It can feel very threatening because 1. a single woman is outnumbered and could be overpowered by a carload of males and 2. the intent of the males is not clear to a woman – are they trying to make a woman’s day by admiring her harmlessly or …
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Maybe after a millenia or so of objectifying women, we’ve taught women that their only worth is sexual, which is why it makes you feel good to know you’re sexually attractive. Without being ‘beautiful’ you have no worth.
Not saying i think that, but it’s been argued by feminist thinkers from at least Wolf onwards. Maybe when women are valued intellectually the way you were valued sexually by the catcall they’ll feel good whatever they accomplish, not just about having a cute bum.
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I’ve often wondered about how this situation of women being valued mostly for their looks has evolved over the last millenia when there is so much more to a person than the way they look.
Is it because men’s primary means of developing sexual desire for women (before they actually know her as a person) depends upon their visual sense? It could explain the way women are so very conscious of their appearance and that most women at some level would be aware that men depend on their visual senses to be atttracted to a woman.
I’ve researched this a few times over the years and never found a satisfactory answer. A bit off topic I know but just wondering if anyone else knows.
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But don’t women also rely to a large extent on their visual impression of a man in developing sexual desire?
I know personally I’ve seen many a fine looking man walking down the street while I’m driving my car. I guess the key difference being that I don’t yell or holler or toot my horn, and to be honest I don’t know many other women who would.
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Yes, women do rely on their visual senses also, however, according to the research men generally rely on it to a much greater extent than women and it is their PRIMARY means of assessing a future sexual partner.
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Biologically there’s no difference between men and women’s immmediate sexual response. We judge visually on first glance (albeit looking for different qualities), then when we interact we take a million subtle cues from all our other senses (including – and particularly – smell). See the work of anthropologist Helen Fisher for more.
Our challenge as a society is to then make sure we judge a woman on everything about her, not just her looks. We do this as individuals every day, but thanks in no small part to marketing and culture we judge women sexually as a society.
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Thanks dt3. Will follow this up.
I think the more knowledge we have about how men and women individually react to each other as well as a society, the more we can progress the equal rights of women and men.
Prescribing how feminists and/or men SHOULD feel is antithetical to feminist ideals. However, encouraging people to think about what they feel is not overthinking but being responsible for yourself and to society by then choosing how you act on your feelings.
I think there is a reason/s for this overfocussing on women’s appearance and how sexual it has to be to make a woman feel worthy in our society. It causes so much angst amongst women. The reason/s need to be identified and understood to set women free of this awful burden.
I dress to please myself but usually, in the back of my mind, I hope that what I choose for myself in dressing would also make me not overwhelmingly unattractive to the opposite sex.
Cheers
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But if a woman doesn’t yet know a man as a person, then all she knows is his appearance, so wouldn’t she also assess him based on that?
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Appearance is one of the things men and women use to assess a person. From what I’ve read, men rely on it more than women in a complicated psychological/physical response way. For example, men respond to the visual stimulation of hard porn while women respond to less graphic soft porn; good looking women hook up with not-so-good looking men more often than the reverse. That is, while appearance is important to both sexes, it stimulates men more strongly than women to approach someone.
Have just been reading some of the stuff by Helen Fisher and one study shows that men’s thoughts on kissing are quite different to women’s with many more men thinking kissing leads to sex than women.
Another point was how little research has actually been conducted into love.
Perhaps if we knew more about and understood the differences between men and women it would help rather than assigning roles or acting indignantly when one sex genuinely does not understand the actions of the other. Yes, there are times when people should be indignant about how they are treated but some knowledge and understanding would help a lot.
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“Wooooo hooooooooo sweat heart, YEOOOOOW”
One of my guy mates always says sweat when he means sweet – we always laugh.
e.g. “I’ll meet you there at 8″
“ok sweat”
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“I often think that, in many respects, many of the complexities of modern domestic life would be avoided if women performed the lions share of traditionally female “tasks” and men did the manly jobs.”
Wow.
If you are happy to live in the 50′s that’s cool.
However, the rest of us are hopefully well past this crazy, arbitrary concept of ‘male jobs’ and female jobs’.
You do realise that no-one is born to mow a lawn or to make the garden beds pretty?
Thank god my husband and I can deal with the ‘complexities’ of domestic life without resorting to anti-choice practises.
I just feel a bit sorry for the lesbian couples out there. Who mows their lawns?
And those gay guys- who does their washing up?
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I read a great blog article a while ago about who does the domestic stuff in gay relationships, it boils down to: Whoever wants the thing done more. Because there is no reliance on ‘male’ or ‘female’ jobs as there are two males or females.
The only thing I have to do in my relationship is kill cockroaches. My girlfriend is terrified of them. Everything else we split on who wants it done more, who is better (such as with cooking) who’s at home at the time etc.
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Ha – thats how my boyfriend and I do it too. =)
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Yeah, “male jobs” and “female jobs”… and then asks if she is a “bad feminist”. Yikes.
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Oh no! I just realised it says “female “tasks”” and “manly jobs”.
Female —> tasks
Male —> jobs
Seems even worse to me!!!
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Ha ha!
I was so blown away by the totality of the article that I missed that nuance!
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Wow the Mamamia resident angry feminists are out in full force overanalysing every word in this (great) article. Relax, you’re reading way too much into this.
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??
Who’s angry?!
Gig?
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I do find that in our relationship, I generally gravitate towards the more ‘feminine’ jobs, and my husband towards the more ‘masculine’ jobs. Not because I feel I have to, I just prefer it.
Luckily, he quite likes scrubbing the shower though
… and I NEVER try and talk him out of it.
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If you’re a 40 something mother who gets a kick out of a random cat call from a tradie that’s kind of pathetic but also understandable.
But if you’re a gorgeous, young, sexually blossoming young woman of say 19 who literally can’t turn around without being harassed, the constant cat calls and propositions are more than a just a flattering novelty. It becomes predatory and intimidating behaviour that makes you feel like a worthless piece of meat.I remember those days and they make me shudder.
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It becomes predatory and intimidating behaviour that makes you feel like a worthless piece of meat.I remember those days and they make me shudder.’
I Thank GOD that I never had that done to me. But I would Not allow Anyone to rent room in my head so I would feel like a worthless piece of meat. We’re Humans just like men. WHO formed them in our tummies to be born as boys then men. Just becoz someone says something, does that mean its true? Obviously not. That person says it Not you, so why believe someone who you don’t know and never met?
Lots of men – your Brothers, Fathers and male friends etc. dont talk to you like that, so just move on and forget it. They’re doing it to themselves because they themselves come from women themselves!
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Most women just know that they are negative becoz obviously the men don’t talk like that or do those kind of things to any women they know. Its also oviously you don’t treat women disrespectfuly like that. When a man talks like that, like a woman previously posted, he doesn’t say excuse me. EveryOne wants the common courtesy and acknowledgement there there before any dialog and she also said she’d wanted to be asked out on a date(if she accepted or didn’t accept doesn’t really matter; what matters is she wasn’t talked To her face but talked at). Another point no one wants to be treated like that by someone they Don’t know or never met. Also the men doesn’t greet them in any form 1st as a common courtesy. Another obvious one: when men talk respectfuly to you you feel good but when they do negative wolf whisles you don’t feel good.
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I compeletely agree Helena. Well said.
I think many women know the feeling of that tightening in the throat and tension in the stomach as you walk towards a big group of men on the footpath, not knowing where is best to look to avoid the comments or physical intimidation.
Gig, I can only imagine men feel the same way when walking near a woman on the street right?
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I think a lot of women are too hard on men! if a tradie wants to innocently beep his horn at me or wolf whistle while i jog, go right ahead! I wont turn down the ego boost! just dont stop the car or try to talk to me hehe
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Respectfully i disagree with the author.
Im glad for you that the experience of being beeped at and yelled at based on your physical appearance didn’t upset, scare, embarass, humiliate you or make you feel degraded, but in fact most women do feel embarassed, humiliated and degraded when yelled at like that. ive been followed by guys in vans and been harassed in the street when wearing workout clothes, business clothes, or jeans.
Its not ok. NOT. OK. at all.
There is a movement called ‘ihollaback’ which is based on shaming the jerks who feel that our physicality exists for them – to comment on, yell at, abuse, expose, degrade, or vilify. Women who are overweight face this every day. women who go to work deal with this every day. women who walk in their neighbourhoods with their friends, their dogs or their children, experience this every day.
This is not ok. It is a way of men reminding us that we are nothing but our bodies. That our bodies are public property and therefore, public comment is allowed, usually obscene and loud. Public comment, public harassment, is their ‘entitlement’ and only makes everyone feel messed up and crap. I personally think some men do this to frighten and intimidate women as well.
Any men reading this please take note. Whatever your intentions, acknowledged or unacknowledged to yourself and others, please dont do this. EVER. its not a compliment. its not a pick up line. Its not sexy. its not invited or appreciated or wanted. If you dont want men treating your mum, your sister, your girlfriend or your daughter like this, then please dont do this. EVER.
Women reading this – we are not our bodies. Our bodies are not who we are. Our physical presence is not anyones property and does not belong to anyone. No one has the right to ever ever ever harass us in this way.
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Love, love, LOVE ihollaback!
I always used to accept street harassment as part of everyday life until I realised that my older brother doesn’t have to steel himself before leaving his house when he goes on a night out, so why the hell am I supposed to psych myself up for an evening of getting disgusting things yelled at me? That’s not fair in any way. And the concept that we should be ‘flattered’ or ‘You’d like it if you were straight’ is also wtf-worthy. I don’t particularly like other lesbians treating me like a piece of meat, you know?
Definitely agree that some people get a kick from it, when you are taken by surprise and the shock and fear (and it usually is fear from me, I’m small and not strong, I can’t win in a fight with those guys) registers on your face, it often gets worse. I hate it.
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Hmm, seems to me you might not be a feminist… I mean, being a stay at home mum, with a law degree behind you, doesn’t that go 100% against the feminist believes? Not that I mind that, I’m the same, and I do think feminism goes to far at times. I think you’re absolutely right that women and men have different skills, it just bothers me when my skills seem to utilised around anything that involves housework, including taking out the rubbish, and my husband’s skills only revolve around working on the ‘money pit’ – or well, he calls it the boat. Sometimes he just cleans the house better than I do, the more thougrough clean, and he’s certainly better in the kitchen than I am, but still I get those jobs…
As for the whistling, nah, that still pisses me right off, as does the amount of me I can see gawking at me (wearing trackies, a rain coat and a pram) instead of watching traffic. Perhaps I’ll appreciate the wolves more when I’ve got time to worry about how i feel on the day… (When my toddler grows into a teenager…)
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i resent (and resemble) the point you make about a SAHM meaning you can’t call yourself a feminist. i am a SAHM, heck i’d even call myself a housewife and absolutely consider myself a feminist. i CHOSE to leave my career behind to look after my children.
isn’t that what feminism is, being free to choose your own path?
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So if I CHOOSE to let men bash me and dominate me make me stay at home and not get an education and not get employment does that make me a feminist?
If I CHOOSE to take home less pay and let men take home more, if I CHOOSE to betray the sisterhood by keeping a nice house for hubby so he can contribute to society rather than me, does that make me a feminist?
The line that “feminism means being able to choose not to be one” is the biggest furphy in the book. It simply allows people to totally twist the real meaning of feminism.
Feminism doesn’t mean “choice”.
Feminism simply means supporting the rights of women.
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sorry i didn’t realise i was betraying the sisterhood as well, geez i thought i was already busy enough!
my focus is not (and believe me, you should see the state of my house) keeping a nice home and making dinner for my husband, it is CARING for my kids before they go to school. i chose to not use childcare as it didn’t sit right with me, and as the much more nurturing person i WANTED to stay home.
i could argue (but i won’t) that using childcare is not supporting the rights of women. from what i know childcare workers are predominantly female, and not exactly paid as well as they should be for such an important role, so how is using childcare supporting the rights of women?
once my kids are all in full time school and i got back to work will i be allowed to call myself a feminist again? or have i given up my right to that because i clean and cook and look after children all day? basically you are suggesting the unpaid work of a mother is not valued, so you tell me how that is supporting the rights of women.
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rainbow, if paying childcare workers poorly is ‘not supporting the rights of women’, then what does that say about paying SAHMs nothing?
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i don’t really think that women are betraying the sisterhood by using daycare, but i was just using it as an example of how we can’t really win according to some.
but i agree the role of the SAHM is TOTALLY undervalued. just ask all my working friends who say “rainbow will do it she doesn’t work” when chores related to kids and school come up!
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Are you having ago at Rainbow for being a stay at home feminist? Is she betraying the sister hood because she wants to care for her kids?
I’m having trouble understanding what it is you are trying to say.
Would she be a proper feminist if her husband stayed at home to care for the kids? or if she sent them off to childcare?
I think I’m offended.
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No, I’m having a go at her for saying this:
“from what i know childcare workers are predominantly female, and not exactly paid as well as they should be for such an important role”
while ignoring the elephant in the room – the fact that SAHMs are not paid at all.
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I was talking to Helena!
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Huh? Why would someone get paid to take care of their own kids?
Child care is a profession that’s why it’s paid.
Parenting is not a paid job because they’re YOUR kids.
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Well there’s a slight teeny tiny discrepancy between “I clean and cook and look after my children all day” and the concept of “feminist”.
I thought that was like, what feminists fought against?
But maybe it’s just my outdated views. Each to their own.
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I hope feminists fought for equal opportunities, equal rights and equality of choices for both sexes.
I don’t think they fought to have yet another sector of society telling us what we (male or female) “should’ be doing.
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But if you have a house and/or children, what are you meant to do? Live in squalor? Outsource? Get your partner to do everything? Even if you work, you still have to clean your home and raise your children.
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What’s wrong with cleaning and cooking and looking after kids all day if that’s what you’re happy doing?
Would you call a man emasculated if he was a stay at home dad who did those things?
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“Feminism doesn’t mean “choice”.
Feminism simply means supporting the rights of women.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Where on Earth did this whole “choice” thing come from? Feminism is about rights, responsibility and dignity for everyone.
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Oop, that was me, it won’t let me edit.
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so why is being a SAHM not supporting the rights of women. i don’t get it. what is undignified about raising your children, or is it all about supporting the rights of women in non-traditional roles only?
i stand by my comment that i am still a feminist by the way, i am just curious about how this works in others minds.
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How can feminism not be, in part, about choices?
There were days when a woman couldn’t make a choice to be a doctor. She simply did not have that choice available to her because society didn’t deem it an appropriate choice for a woman.
Equal opportunities and rights allow all of us, male or female a much broader range of choices than we have had historically.
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That’s what I thought… but perhaps my view of feminism is skewed and outdated. I am confused though, because I totally agree with having ‘free choice’, but I often find myself disagreeing with ‘out there’ women calling themselves feminists, thinking their views are much to square and in fact limiting women. Is there perhaps an ‘old feminism’ and a ‘new feminism’ where women do whatever the hell they want? Does that mean I can’t complain about choosing to only work part time so my girl doesn’t have to go to daycare all week but then also being left with more chores around the house, even when my fifo husband is home? Or is it a package deal, where if you choose your kids over work, you then also have to choose housework?
I do resent feeling like I have to choose between one or the other, I wish I could work on something that resembles a career, but also feel like I’m making the best choices for my child. I guess my comment above was bred from that notion, that having a career (I’m assuming) in law, yet choosing to stay home with your child is a step back to the ‘classic’ state of women in the home. Does that make sense?
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Above was a response by dk-mum… wasn’t signed in when I posted
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Hmm Helena does that mean that any women who chooses to have children HAS to stay in the workforce and send her kids to child-care? If they choose to care for their children themselves are they automatically betraying the sisterhood and renouncing their belief in feminism?
What do you suggest a woman does when she has children? Or is choosing to reproduce in the first place already submitting to patriarchal expectations and therefore renouncing feminism?
I’m a femininst and lawyer (seems lots of us are cruising MM) and I’m not having a go at you, I’d generally like to hear your argument in support of your bold post.
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I am truly disturbed by your take on feminism.
Feminism or (‘equalism’ if you like) is not about narrowing choices. It should all be about increasing choices. Educated or not if a man or woman *choose* to devote themselves to childrearing for a time that is OK.
I cannot fathom how it can be considered anti-choice/freedom to make a decision to raise kids at home!
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Agreed… just because a woman performs tasks generally viewed as being traditionally ‘feminine’ (such as being the one who stays home with the kids or the one who does the majority of the housework etc etc) does not make them ‘anti-feminist’. All it means is that they have chosen to do what is best for them at that time (whether for personal, financial or other reasons)
Having the view that all women *should* take on such roles simply because they are women – yes, that is ‘anti-feminist’…
Feminism is not about ‘getting women out of the kitchen’, it’s about giving women the choice to get out of the kitchen, but only if that’s what they want to do.
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Wow im surprised any woman if any age who is walking on her own finds it acceptable to be beeped at. It hasn’t happened to me but if it did I think I would head directly home. That’s a situation I would find scary, not complimentary. But when a man calls me “darls” or likewise I like it! And I dont know why. Perhaps it’s my safe version of the horn beep
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DON’T EVER go Directly home after any kind of negative comment!! He could follow you. I’ve seen it been said on the Internet a few times. Always go to a Busy place and loose him if followed. Ph. to get a friend or Parents to come and get you, if you can/or take a cab. Then go home. Also Don’t take your regular route home. At least this time and make Sure he hasn’t followed you!
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Rita, if I did those things every time I got a whistle or a comment, I’d be constantly confined to the house, or running around in crowds trying to hide from men (while probably getting more comments and having to run even further!)
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This is one of my all-time favourite quotes about what feminism is:
Any woman who doesn’t think she’s a feminist but also doesn’t want to be treated like a piece of bird poo on the car windscreen of life has just got her terminology wrong.
That’s not verbatim, was a while ago when I first saw it on the wall at uni.
There are many schools of feminism, many “waves”, because every woman is different, has different life experiences etc. the basis of the vast majority of feminisms is to eliminate discrimination and oppression based on gender.
We have a LONG way to go on this around the world, with many women and girls still denied education, voting rights and to live free from fear or violence – even here in Australia, our rates of violence against women are disgraceful. I agree that context plays a huge part in day to day interactions between men & women, however, when we have a judicial system where it’s still common place for rape victims to be scrutinised over their clothing and sex life, insinuating that the victim is responsible, then there is still a hell of a lot more that needs to be done.
How about using your article to explore something with a bit more depth and substance and to try and create genuine awareness and change?
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I remember seeing this on the back of a toilet door at uni in 1991 and it’s
stuck with me all these years! You didn’t go to QUT in Brisbane did you?!
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No, UOW. It’s one you don’t forget, that’s for sure!
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I agree with all of this
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This is THE BEST post I have read for ages. You are a typical female I think! Let’s embrace equal but different and stop all the worrying!
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I don’t know if this is the case but is the image for this article meant to look like a woman spreading her legs in between the fingers… Or is it just me haha
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I think she’s giving the finger to chauvinism? She seems to be missing a middle finger in there…
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The problem is, who does the deciding re what is offensive and sexist? This is the problem for men, and this article just backs up the complex nature of women and feminism. If women themselves cant define what it all means, what is right and wrong, how the hell are men supposed to know how to behave????
I kind of imagine that, a wolf whistle from the right guy, or when the women needs a lift is ok, yet from the wrong guy or when in the wrong frame of mind is sexual harrasment. The definition is all up to the women, depending on how she feels at the time. Who would be a guy huh?
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Yeah I guess it is pretty compelx in terms of the wolf whistle issue. Personally they make me more embarressed than anything else, and sometimes confused as to what the actual intention is.. is it meant as a compliment, or is it meant to get a reaction out of me? And if it is meant to be a compliment, I think there are probably lots of nicer ways of giving one…. like a smile. Like any human interaction, it has to be judged on the general mood of the situation, but on a simple level, it just has to be about respect.
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You carved your own roasts ? Someone give her a pat on the……..back !
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“Wooooo hooooooooo sweat heart, YEOOOOOW”.
Sweat heart? That made me laugh
Great article!!
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LOVED this article.
It’s wonderfull to have someone else write the weird complexities within yourself!
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You’re a typical female!
And I agree – I hate it (HATE IT) when a teenager calls me ‘sweetheart’, ‘darl’, ‘love’, etc. I almost find it condescending. And I’m only 22!
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I am ok with most of what you wrote in this article, except the men screaming out the window part. I’ve had that, and men in cars slowing down as they drive past me, leering out the window making kissing noises with filthy looks in their eyes. It’s not just men in cars. It does not make me feel good. It makes me feel very intimidated, unsafe, and uncomfortable.
My husband told about a male friend of his who believed women enjoyed this and did it as often as he could. I was disgusted. I have never enjoyed it. I won’t deny I enjoy an appreciative glance, someone turning back to look as they walk past me… But I hate the leering and yelling out of car windows. I bet most of those idiots wouldn’t do it to my face.
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I totally hear you. It’s one thing to get a smile or have someone keep looking when you walk past. I think its human nature to want to others to find you attractive.
HOWEVER when men call out to you and make comments about your body as your walking alone it is in a whole other league. When I was in high school I used to walk part of the way home with a friend then down a long main road by myself. The amount of times cars would slow down or would call out to me was truly very scary. The worst part was I was in my school uniform and most the men who did it were much older. When I started working at an office in the city the same stuff kept happening. And how people can really think this is something women like is absolutely beyond me.
On the flip side I have a friend who is a bit over weight and she stopped going for walk around her area because men had been calling out to her about her weight. Stuff like ‘run fatty run’. Truly disgusting behaviour.
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Speak for yourself! I can take bins out in high heels. I think some of this article talks about double standards and special treatment.. getting served at the newsagency first because you have boobs or taking more holidays because you can manipulate someone with your sexy voice is all well and good, but if you accept that special treatment then you must also expect the pitfalls of that like unwanted sexual attention (if that tradie had been a fat old creepy bald guy tooting you I bet it would be a different response) and being thought of as weak. Can’t have it both ways. That’s not equality.
Yes we should play to our strengths but that is an individual thing not a gender thing. You can be feminine and still carry your own bags. Feminine doesn’t = weak. I’m not saying it’s wrong to accept help if you’re having trouble with your bags, but don’t look at it as a feminine thing to do. Look at it as something nice one person is doing for another person.
Men and women are different, but I don’t think some of the examples in this article are about accepting differences and playing our strengths so much as stereotyping and having a sense of entitlement based purely on gender.
If we expect the boys to play nice and treat us as equals then why do we also expect that we should be treated as special, getting more perks (like faster service, better holidays etc) than them at the same time?
I think the secret to happiness between genders is for everyone to just get on with life without accepting any unequal treatment or expecting any special treatment due to gender.
As for interactions between individual men and women, men are often going to do nice things for women because they’re taught it’s good manners or because they think we’re pretty. I personally don’t have a problem with that but I think it’s all about context. Being served first? Not cool. There are other people who have been waiting longer, I’m not ok with being served in a bar before some random dude just because I’m a girl. I always tell the bartender if someone was in front of me. I don’t think of that as being a feminist I think of that as basic manners and fairness. Having a man open a door for me? That’s a nice thing to do, thank you. Doesn’t make me weak or special or anything, it just means I didn’t get to the door first.
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I agree with everything you wrote and with a lot of the comments.
I am a feminist but I try to be ‘balanced’ about it – life is grey afterall LOL. I am raising three kids – two boys and a girl – to know that feminism is about choices and respect.
The other day my 9yo daughter saw a photo of two ‘car show girls’ who had very obvious boob jobs and very little clothing on….she rolled her eyes and said “Mum, I want to say to those girls: ‘The boys are only looking at your boobs! You should take out those implants so they’ll like you for you.’ ” Made my heart sing as did her 11 year old brother who admitted while he liked looking, he realised it was ‘demeaning’ to them – his words.
And I like the comment below that it’s about ‘context’.
While a brief whistle out of a car while passing might be acceptable – a whole building site of men yelling obscenities as you pass is not acceptable. One seems like ‘appreciation’ in a (sort of) respectful & non threatening way while the other is about ‘owning’ a space and making a woman feel threatened if she passes it.
I draw a line at Irons’ comments – if I’m flirting with a guy in a bar and he pats me on the arse – fine – but if I’m at work then patting on the bum is not fine.
@Idle Dad – I don’t think respectfully asking a work coleague out on a date is sexual harassment. If she said no and you continued to hassle her and used it as a threat hanging over her then yes. Or if you are the ‘big boss’ and married and you ask out the young graduate (as happened to me) then yes that is also inappropriate and bordering on harassment. So it’s about context yet again.
[PS: I dealt with the big boss by loudly telling him that his wife wouldn't be too thrilled to learn about his invitation - and he left me alone after that
]
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I think the problem with being a feminist is that no one is totally sure what exactly makes a feminist.
My stepmother, who studied women’s studies in the 70s, thinks it is ridiculous that I don’t have my own bank account, that I gave up work to be with my kids, and prides herself on being incompetent in the kitchen. I think it’s ridiculous she hides her bank statements from her husband and the inability to cook is something to be proud of, and thinks changing your name is lame but did it anyway!
I no longer care what *anyone* thinks, which has been the most liberated thing on my life, ever.
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To me, being a feminist is just about having the choice.
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I very quickly skimmed over this comment, read ‘prides’ and ‘kitchen’, thought you were talking about making your own PIDES and got really excited, oops
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having studied feminism in this century … the most outstanding feature of it as a discipline is its diversity, contradiction, contention and public misconception. For me, my favourite version of feminism is as it was initially intended, to bring rights to those who have the least access to them … consequently, feminism for me is about equalising access to choice … not about what we choose.
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Hear, hear. Great article, nodded the whole way through.
*oh dear, or is it ‘here here’ ??!
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I always wonder about that!!
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I think it’s ‘hear hear’ ….I always think of it as an acknowledgement – you ‘heard’ it and approved, whereas ‘here’ is a place, so ‘here here’ would be like saying ‘over here, over here’ which isn’t what you’re trying to say….that’s my interpretation anyway
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It’s definitely “Hear, hear!” oh literate one
You probably also know that the past tense of to lead is “led” and not “lead”. If so, I just may love you.
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‘led’? naaaahh ….it’s totes ‘leaded’
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This is going to be a long comment. I apologise in advance.
My mother is a proper bra-burning, leading the way, feminist. She kept her maiden name, got married late (30′s, but 30 years ago) and had kids late (me at 42). She also cooked, cleaned, sewed, was a nurse & midwife.
She taught me that being a feminist isn’t about going against what society thinks women “should be”. Not if that’s what you want to be. Feminism is just about having the choice.
I grew up with this, and with role models like The Tough Princess (hilarious book, every child should grab a copy). It taught me women can be just as strong as men, can be just as successful, just as intimidating.
I am tall, but I am dainty. I have small hands, I’m small boned and I look fragile. Throughout my life this has always incited a strong chivalrous response in men because I look like I need protection. Quite often men hold doors open for me, offer me their seats and if I am ever threatened, even just when I got into an argument with a shop assistant, the men in my life get very defensive. People think my husband is scary, but they know nothing until they have seen him defending me.
I have also been wolf-whistled at a lot of my life. I have never minded. In fact, as a teen, I used to pretend I minded just because I knew it wasn’t PC for women to appreciate being looked at this way.
I have to tell you, I love being delicate, being small. I love feeling safe and secure in the arms of a strong masculine man. It might not be PC, but I’m done being PC. I love to be viewed this way.
I don’t use it to manipulate. I am a valiant fighter for men’s rights because I believe they’re forgotten a lot of the time. I would never try to get out of a speeding ticket if I were guilty. I don’t think women who aren’t dainty are any less of a woman. I don’t think woman who are strong are any less feminine. I cried watching Glee when Couch Beist got made fun of for being “masculine”.
But I still love the way I am viewed. I love to emphasise it, because it reflects who I am. I am delicate, I am fragile. If you yell at me, I will cry. I can be strong, and I am fiercely loyal. I would fight to the death to protect those I love. But when it comes to myself, I’m not strong at all.
Recently for my birthday a friend of mine who is a photographer gave me a photo shoot of Hubby & I. My favourite photos are the ones that emphasise how small I am compared to him. Of me on my tippy toes trying to kiss him, of his huge hands linked with mine.
I think there’s nothing wrong with feeling that way.
T.
PS: If you want to see them (because I love them and I’m proud) photos are here: http://www.tamsinhowse.com/blog/2011/08/hubby-me-a-photo-shoot/
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I’ve seen your temper online, Miss T…I know you can defend yourself!
Gender roles are interesting. My partner is very liberated…I don’t normally treat her like a princess or as her “protector”…I expect her to look after herself…BUT…if I ever feel she is being threatened by someone, a switch goes off in my brain, and I go into full on cave-man mode…HANDS OFF MY WOMAN!…totally possessive and defensive…the total opposite of my philosophical and intellectual approach to gender roles…
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Haha, maybe I can defend myself sometimes. I used to be in charge of a stack of mystery shopping field staff (1,400). I also had 2 co-workers who I minded when my boss was away. One of them told me one day she wouldn’t want to cross me and found me a bit scary. A chorus of voices around the office, including my boss, agreed.
I’m a strong personality
As for your cave-man response – that’s exactly like Hubby!
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Your photos are really sweet Miss T. It’s lovely to see a couple looking so comfortable with each other and thanks for sharing them
I think it’s really natural that men can have a cave-man response to protecting their partner and that women can have a cave-woman response to feeling good about being attractive to a man. I don’t think either response is out of line with feminist ideals that men and women are equal either.
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Thanks Susan! I absolutely adore my husband.
Completely agree, I think the male role of being a protector is genetically hard-wired. Doesn’t mean everyone feels it, but I have found most do.
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Is it really a gender thing though? If someone is mean or a dick to my boyfriend I know I get super-protective. I don’t think I am trying to take some kind of dominant male position, I just don’t like seeing someone I love get hurt or criticised.
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Agree with you Joey. I don’t think it’s a gender thing. After I wrote my first post, I was thinking about how protective I can be of partner, sons or my dad when he was alive and also how much all the men in my life appreciate my spoken admiration for them. I still think all these reactions are in line with feminist ideals for equality of the sexes.
What we feel for each is what we feel and some of those feelings are feelings we have been having since time began and probably will keep having if we are human. What we believe is fair and equal for each other is what we believe. One doesn’t invalidate the other.
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Agree – I don’t think it’s exclusive to gender. As I said in my original post, I would fight to the death to protect those I love. Absolutely would.
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Then why do you say “I think the male role of being a protector is genetically hard-wired” ?
(I’m genuinely confused.)
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Because I think both things. I think that males are often hard-wired to be protectors and also think that all people are capable of defending those they love.
I have found that if something is about to happen to me when I’m with people, it’s usually the males who jump to my aid. It’s usually males who stop me from falling over, who help me up when I do. If I’m in a bar, often men who don’t know me still react if someone disrespects me.
Not always, I don’t think always is a fair word to use in any situation, but often.
I guess what I’m saying is, the “cave-man response” as we have labelled it earlier in the comments doesn’t only happen over women you love. If they’re going to react that way, they’re probably going to do it for any fragile person.
My husband protects others, not just me. When we were on a plane the woman next to him started crying during turbulance & grabbed my husband’s arm. He held her hand for the rest of the flight, calming her down, telling her it would be OK.
I’m fiercely protective of those I love. And, if we want to really psycho analyse that, we could say being protective over those you love is a hard-wired female trait – watch a lion defend her cubs.
Did that help?
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I think I just fell in love with you!
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Winner!!
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I love your attitude. I also love the idea of feminism being about the right to CHOOSE. There are unfortunately too many people who think the ‘liberated woman’ has to fit a particular mould, and I hate that mould. I also like being protected by my husband, and baking for others is one of my greatest joys (among a lot of other things which don’t fit that mould). We should be able to just be ourselves without a label being attached
ps. loved the photos – particularly the one where you guys are looking at each other out of the corner of your eyes
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That photo made me laugh so much.
Yeah, feminism is about equal rights, equal opportunity. It’s not about forcing us in to some new mould.
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I always smile in spite of myself when a guy cat calls me. It makes me feel pretty. It happens so rarely, so sue me.
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I really think it comes down to context.
Yesterday I was stopped behind a carload of young guys at an intersection when a slim, attractive young woman crossed the road. The guys wound down the window and did very much the same as what your two tradies did. The girls response?
She whipped around and unleashed hell on them – loudly screaming at them in Chinese for several seconds. I have no idea what she said but she was mightily pissed off!
And I totally understand and respect her response, as I do yours.
I have no doubt that being Chinese she has experienced hateful abuse, and she didn’t look old enough to have woken up many mornings regretting that she’d let herself go a bit!
Through that filter, she no doubt saw the ogling as threatening and sinister. Your filter was shaped differently – and consequently you took that ogling as a bit of a lark. Both of you are right.
We each have a unique history of positive and negative interactions and that will pretty much determine how we respond to the opposite sex – that’s true not only for different people, but for the same person on different days of their life.
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Oh yes, I like what you have said. Good point.
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Right, and when we begin to codify behaviour in law, that’s when you run into trouble.
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Precisely.
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You’re not a bad feminist. I had a similar dilemma the other week where I got really excited when I mastered a cooking technique in the kitchen. I then stopped and considered whether being excited about it went against my feminist views. The fact that you’re clever enough to stop and consider it means you’re alright
We all tend to overthink things these days. Life’s too short to worry about everything.
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I’ve never in my entire life felt that it was unfeminine to get excited about learning more techniques in the kitchen. My Grandmother and Mother just cooked and learned and never taught me that anything you learn better or think/do any original creative dishes; is feminine or not feminine. We just cooked just as naturally as any woman.
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I think being capable is very much a feminist thing. Whether it be in the kitchen, the boardroom, the building site. Being able to do things for yourself is hugely important.
Thinking less of things like cooking, sewing, teaching, nursing, because they are traditionally female roles, is not feminist, and not fair.
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Im really not the person to comment on the whole gender game…it annoys me. I’ve seen and experienced way too many negative examples to be unbiased about it all. If it works for you, then more power too you but I just can’t bring myself to go there. I do wonder though why it all needs to be split between the genders. I’m just as happy if a woman helps me through the door as I am if it is a man. I don’t mind a bit of fun verbal chit chat with either a man or woman at the shop counter…whatever. It’s more about the personality than the gender. And throw in basic common courtesy.
As for the wolf whistles. I don’t mind it if the sentiment is positive. A show of appreciation with a whistle or a nod, nothing wrong with that. But a wolf whistle complemented bt a crotch grab, a tongue waggle, slurping or grunting…well that’s a whole different matter. That’s not really about appreciation, that’s about disrespect and power play.
And Jeremy Irons is a knob. Of course women can put up and deal with a butt slap, goodness knows we’ve all grown up with that. But just because we can, doesn’t me we should have to. I reckon I’d feel like slapping him on the face if in was near him, wonder how he would handle that.