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girls Kissing another woman does not a lesbian makeSo, there’s this brothel. Well, it’s not technically a brothel, it’s more of a service. For women. Straight women who want to know what it’s like to be with another woman. Paying attention now?

A few weeks ago, I received an email from someone called Ingrid who would have once been called a Madam but is now called a Concierge. Doesn’t that sound unthreatening? Modern? Helpful even. Ingrid’s background is in advertising and marketing and she wanted to tell me about her new business built on a surprising premise.

It’s widely known that one of the top male fantasies is girl-on-girl action. But did you know it’s also one of the top female fantasies? In the nineties, women’s magazines jumped all over this phenomenon and ran dozens of stories about women who identified as straight but were keen to experiment a little. Bi-curiosity we called it and sales spiked whenever that word appeared on the cover.

Years later, 25 year old Ingrid has set up a paid service exclusively for this type of sex. No men allowed, not even as spectators. And there are no official premises because, as Ingrid explains, they’re unnecessary. Her ‘ladies’ don’t sit around waiting for clients because unlike men (who apparently require a couple of hours between wanting sex and paying for it), women make their bookings days or weeks ahead. And ‘dates’ involve socialising before sex. Just like real life.

I thought this would be an interesting story for Mamamia so I sent along our news editor, Rick, to interview Ingrid and one of her ‘ladies’, Milla. Lucky man, hehehe….. Actually, not so much. Rick is gay. And thus the only person who could bring absolutely no sexual baggage to the experience of sitting down with a hot bisexual sex worker and her hot concierge. I believe you’ll find a picture of Rick with Ingrid and Milla in the dictionary under “irony”.

A few weeks ago, after we published Rick’s story here, I asked him how it was going. Brow furrowed, he looked up briefly from his screen to reply, “Not at all how I expected.” More furrowing. “I’m totally thrown. Everyone says the girls are too attractive and that they’d be too intimidated to sleep with them!”

I wasn’t surprised. The Delicious Dalliances website does seem unexpectedly male-oriented with lots of uncomfortable looking underwear and pouty poses. Is that what women want in a girly fling? Some women perhaps, but many commenters were keen to state their preference for shots of the girls dressed. Maybe in jeans? Bonds undies and a singlet? Bare feet?

In a brief nana moment, I wondered if they should perhaps be wearing cardigans. They looked chilly.

In amongst the many “I’m-too-intimidated” comments, this one caught my attention:

“If my husband spent our money on a prostitute, exposing himself to STDs and demonstrating that making love with me is not enough for him I’d be devastated and furious. I suspect most husbands would feel exactly the same.”

But would they? I drilled into my contact book to ask my stoic friends: if a woman spends a couple of paid hours with another woman, is it cheating? A deal-breaker?

Friend A (female): “Yes, my boyfriend thinks it’s cheating but says it’s much more tolerable than the thought of me being pizzled by a man.” Pizzled? OK.

Friend B (female): “Nah, my husband and I would be fine with it. Sex is just sex. Relationships and love are different.”

Friend C (female): “My partner said that as long as he knew in advance, he’d be totally fine with me sleeping with another woman.”

Friend D (male): “Of course I’d consider it cheating. I don’t think the gender of “the other person” should negate monogamy. Think about it… how would my girlfriend feel if I went to meet a male escort?”

And this is invariably the point at which the conversation hits a wall. A giant wall with the words “double standard” scrawled across it. One by one, you can watch the sexually liberated people get whiplash.

Here’s what I learned this week: while people are divided on whether a woman having a female fling constitutes cheating, there is unanimous agreement on two things:
1. Kissing or sleeping with another woman does not a lesbian make.
2. Totally different for blokes.

“Because if it’s a woman, it’s experimentation, a wild fling. Something to cross off your bucket list, even. ” insists Friend C. “If I came home and said, “I kissed a girl”, Joe wouldn’t immediately think I was a lesbian in denial. But if he kissed or slept with a man I’d immediately suspect he was gay, in denial and doing the wrong thing by me. I’d assume he’d had gay sex many times before and had deceived me and I can’t imagine our marriage continuing. I have no idea why. I adore gay men, I just wouldn’t want to be married to one.”

Fair enough but returning to female bicuriosity for a sec, would you ever use a service like Ingrid’s, I persisted? “Forget sex,” she sighed. “I’d pay to have a woman listen to me complain about how tired and overwhelmed I feel. Actually, if she also unpacked the dishwasher and cooked dinner, I may just put out.”

Do you think there’s a difference between women ‘experimenting’ and men doing the same thing? Why do we have such double standards about this?

Comments

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45 Comments so far

  1. psyv

    They don’t seem to have a website?

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  2. girly

    I have made out with a couple of girls, one stranger on New Years. My boyfriend at the time was quite excited. I also made out with a friend at a party. My boyfriend at that time was even more excited and actively encouraged it.

    I don’t think I could have sex with a woman, I would only kiss them. I prefer males.

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  3. camillapeffer

    You’re bang on the money Mia, kissing another woman does not make you a lesbian per se, but I think it does reveal a lot about sexuality’s fluidity. Freud called it polymorphous perversity, and apparently it’s more prevalent in females. I talked about female bisexuality in a previous post of mine.
    And sleeping with another woman is DEFINITELY cheating if you’re a heterosexual woman dating a man. Quite frankly, it really annoys me when people say it doesn’t count, as if to say that romance between two women isn’t serious.

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  4. clarinette

    May I venture something that will have me flamed for sure? I haven’t put much work into this thought , just occured to me…
    My husband would be fine with me sleeping with a woman. I know a lot of guys like this. It stikes me as very ….disrespectful of female gender. It’s a bit as if women were not really people, they’re here to be taken after all, so they don’t count as cheating….like I said, I haven’t thought this one through, it’s just a “feeling” I get…

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    • Anna

      Some men I’ve spoken to about this in the past have agreed that they don’t consider another woman competition. Men can get very competitive with other men, especially when women are involved. You’ve heard the frat house stories about rating women out of ten and trying to have sex with as many women as they can. Women are a different experience and therefore aren’t direct competition.
      That being said, my husband would absolutely consider it cheating if I was ever had an affair with a woman.

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      • sandandsurf

        Well, men should feel threatened, if you know where I’m getting at ;) lol :P

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    • Melrohs

      I have a theory, and have had it for a while now; men just don’t want their penis where another penis has been. They don’t care if we have closer emotional ties with girlfriends; they don’t care if we spend time with gay friends and now, they don’t appear to mind if we have sex with a woman… but tell him another penis has entered the sacred tunnel and there would be BIG problems.

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  5. mm

    I would love to hook up with another woman but I would prefer to meet them than have it set up. Sadly my boyfriend says NO! One of the few men who disapproves of their girlfriend being with another woman…

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  6. Anon

    Wow, I think that some people are looking waaay too into this article. Its a service that is there for women to experience being with another woman without having to walk into a regular brothel or awkwardly pick up another woman hoping they are keen for the same experience too. The service sounds discreet and an opportunity to live out a fantasy. No one said anything about cheating, lying or gay rights. Id say there is a large number of straight women who would like to try it out and at least this way they can phone, book, experience it and tick it off the to do list. Good on Ingrid for finding a niche market and meeting its demand.

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  7. Mabol

    I just want to point out as a woman who is overwhelmingly (though not exclusively) attracted to women – that i do not think being with a prostitute can in any way be comparable to how it is being with a woman who is there because she wants to be there…because she is into you – so it isn’t a way to find out what ‘it is like’ to be with another woman…because so much of sexuality isn’t about just being with ‘female body parts’ , or a fabricated personality for that matter.

    I don’t feel intimidated by these women – nor the slightest bit interested for that matter – and it wouldn’t matter how much Ingrid pours over the comments and tries to refine her marketing to better meet women’s ‘tastes’ through fine photography and a ’25 words or less’ summary of a fake, marketed personality… that could not be changed for me. Though obviously this service is not targeted towards lesbians, I’m pretty sure I’d feel the same regardless of my sexual orientation.

    I was particularly disturbed in the original article about the marketing of ‘avoiding ‘seedy’ bars and being ‘seen out in public’ – what people do privately is up to them – I keep my own sexuality pretty low key (I don’t hide it) – I worry though, as a same-sex attracted woman, about someone trying to deliberately manipulate, encourage and prey on someone’s anxieties and reservations about their sexuality – (pay for it and you can ‘keep it in the closet’) – so that they may financially benefit.

    There is something about two people being attracted that the French describe as.. je ne sais pas – the inconvenience of which cannot be be sidestepped with a wad of $50 notes. Being with one of these prostitutes, in my view, would give you a pretty wooden, one-sided and impoverished experience of woman on woman sexuality, regardless of whether it gave you an orgasm. You don’t really get to know what it is like to ‘be with’ a woman – because there needs to be something mutual for that.

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    • kanjiqueen21

      I think you mean “je ne sais quoi”. “Je ne sais pas” means just plain old “I don’t know”. “Je ne sais quoi” means “I don’t know what”, like that elusive something that attracts you to someone.

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  8. Anonymous

    As a gay woman this is a joke, it is making my lifestyle and my choices seem like something you can experiment with on the weekends.
    Only when fluff articles like this stop we might get some real action on the equal rights movement

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    • freedom for all not just gays please!

      Does this mean that you believe that only ‘actual’ gay people have the right to be free with their sexuality?
      Equal rights, but not for all – have we just expanded our definition of normal a bit to include gay now?
      I am a woman who is married to a man however before I met my husband I had several lovely encounters with women (and with men too). I never happened to fall in love with a woman but I never discounted it as a possibilty. I was ‘experimenting’.
      Why is my sexual journey any less valid than yours?

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    • Anonymous

      Agree with the anon / is homosexuality a joke now or a bit of fun? Pfft.

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  9. Miss T

    A woman sleeping with another man outside a straight relationship is cheating, most people agree. A woman sleeping with another woman outside a straight relationship is a grey area. Playing devil’s advocate for a moment: What if it’s an open relationship?

    Cheating is a lie, so my definition is that anything that’s lying or you feel you have to hide is cheating. Communication with someone outside the relationship, feelings for someone outside the relationship, kissing someone, sex with someone, if you are hiding it, it’s cheating. If it hurts your partner, it’s cheating. My doctor once told me that at the heart of every argument, at the heart of every time someone gets hurt, is a lie. The solution to any problem is to identify and deal with the lie. Cheating hurts because it’s lying. Most of the time in the straight woman sleeps with other woman outside relationship and nothing goes wrong scenario, the man has first given permission and/or consent. There is no lie.

    It’s up to each couple to decide what they’re comfortable with, but that’s my general rule.

    As for if a woman sleeping with another woman makes her gay, I don’t think so. I don’t think a man sleeping with another man makes him gay either. What makes you gay is being gay, not something you do. Does a gay man sleeping with a woman make him straight?

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    • psyv

      Open relationship is fine.

      The ridiculousness of the concept of kissing another gender “making” you gay is just an extension of homophobic tendencies. Just like, “ooooh that toilet seat will get you pregnant!”

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  10. Simone

    I’d love to hear a first person review of this service. Maybe there’s a MMer out there that would agree to trial the service and report back? It could be anon. I’m sure MM could sort out a freebie. And just so there’s no ‘cheating’ involved maybe that person could be single. Any takers?

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    • Anon for this

      I would absolutely do it if someone covered the cost! I’m 22, and for the past few years I have been wanting to sleep with a woman, but the one thing in my way is my husband ;) When this post was originally made I did look into it, but it was way too expensive. Personally I think I am too attractive to have to pay for it, and every time I go to Newtown I know I would have no problems picking up a lady haha

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      • Anonymous

        tickets much.

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        • Miss T

          she doesnt have tickets. hell, i think im too attractive to pay for it too :P

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    • Ingrid

      Hi Simone – sounds like a good idea to me and the Delicious Dalliances ladies. If any MMer’s are interested in hearing some accounts or having an experience themselves drop me a line x

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    • mm

      I would do it and report back! I am sure I could convince my boyfriend to let me!!

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  11. F

    Why this obsession with cheating? Why aren’t we talking about girls doing it BETWEEN relationships? No one specified they only cater to married women, and it’s offensive to frame it like they do.

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  12. Anonymous

    Occasionally I have lesbian dreams, and that’s enough for me… and I don’t even have to worry about whether I’m cheating on my boyfriend or not.

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  13. Anony

    I asked my boyfriend what he would think. His face lit up and he said “Take photos!”
    >.<

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  14. guest

    this is a subject which is pretty close to home for me.
    a few years ago, my best friend and i (both in relationships) hooked up at a party. we were young, drunk, and as close as two 18 year old girls can possibly be, we loved each other in a completely platonic way. my boyfriend was fine with it, he even encouraged it (not in a pervy way, he has many close, lesbian/bi friends so he’s desensitised to the whole girl on girl thing) but her boyfriend HIT THE ROOF. he never said anything to me and we continued to be friends, they stayed together, but he did consider it cheating. and we never really understood why.
    of course, going to a co-ed school we were the talk of the grade for a few weeks until everyone got over it, but it was pretty horrible until they did. everyone knew how close we were and as soon as we hooked up, they all just assumed we were gay or bi and decided to give us hell for it. it’s not as easy to concentrate in ancient history if youve got the boys sitting behind you to give them a ‘demonstration’

    anyway, it happened again at a club a few weeks, with a different friend who i’m even closer with and basically the same thing happened. we had boys absolutely all over us, for the wrong reasons, and we both got pretty pissed off with them, one of our mates coming pretty close to blows with them when he noticed what was going on.

    i find it really offensive when people judge me for this sort of behaviour. all im doing is expressing my love and friendship with another human being.. it’s not as if i’m sleeping around, which would open myself up to ALOT more harm than just kissing a friend.

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  15. Gig

    This post is interesting in many ways. While ranting in the past about the tabloid print mags, you are now continuing the trend. Rather than an enlightened online version of a woman’s magazine, you are perpetuating the model that women will read any titillating crap thrown up at them.

    At the end of the day you have eleven comments on this post. Hardly hitting a nerve are you?

    Perhaps your preponderance with same sex issues isn’t of mainstream concern. That it’s of major concern for your ‘political’ editor is obvious, perhaps he should be called your ‘gender’ editor. A political editor should have a focus on political issues, and hopefully, a bipartisan approach, rather than an agenda focused on gay rights.

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    • Random

      Gig, perhaps the reason for the lack of comments is that this post is a follow up to the original post, which is linked above. I notice that the original got 247 comments. Maybe everyone said what they wanted to say on that one?

      Also, “gay rights” is a political issue and I for one appreciate hearing the views of people directly affected by the lack thereof, be they bipartisan, partisan or non-partisan.

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    • Mia

      Gig,
      Rick is not a political editor. He’s a news editor. This includes writing features. Oh, and he didn’t write this post, I did.

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    • anon

      Perhaps many read it and for reasonably obvious reasons did not reply as they normaly might have. I am only (anon of course) to prove a point.
      Thanks Mia for bringing many things out of the cupboard for all of us.

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  16. Anonymous

    You sometimes quote commenters from here in other articles and occasionally your Sunday Life articles, like today. Do you ask permission to use their words or is anything that is written here automatically your intellectual property?

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    • Cami

      I thought there was such a thing as ‘fair use’?

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  17. Kylie2

    I made that original comment. I have to confess I didn’t ask any men how they would feel about the scenario. Interesting that you got such a mixed response.
    I also find it interesting that women feel intimidated by attractive prostitutes. I can’t imagine many blokes would feel that a less attractive woman would make them feel better about themselves.
    Surely the point of paying for sex is that you are guaranteed to get lucky whether the escort finds you attractive or not!

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    • Kayt

      Women are intimidated by attractive prostitutes for the same reason that women are intimidated by any other attractive women. Men just see that they’re hooking up with someone hot, women see a more attractive version of themselves. (This obviously doesn’t apply to all women)

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  18. S

    Why is it if someone says one thing that someone else doesn’t agree with or wouldn’t say themselves, they then question that persons right to call themselves a feminist. I think it is to the detriment of feminism that this happens, and then some women stop calling themselves feminists.

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  19. kathyw

    Check the Kinsey scale. Our sexuality is neither fixed nor straight, bi or gay. The scale rates us all 1-6 and we can float around, for example, straight for some years and then drifting into the other zones.
    And yes, cheating is cheating no matter what your gender and preference.

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  20. Hmmm

    I’m single, but I reckon there would be many a boyfriend who would quite enjoy me enlisting the services of this company and then telling him all about it. He wouldn’t call it ‘cheating’. He’d call it ‘spicing up our sex life’.

    Unfortunately for future boyfriend/husband, I’d never do that. I’m completely straight and have absolutely no interest in being with another woman – let alone paying for it.

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  21. Anonymous

    Cheating is cheating regardless of who it was with. If my husband slept with someone else, or even kissed someone else, regardless of gender, I would consider it cheating. Why are you expecting women to get a free pass just because its with another woman? Gender doesn’t matter in the world of cheating, and if you are paying for it? Seems much worse to me. I find the notion of paying for sex very wrong indeed so I suppose I can’t be unbiased about this ‘service’ and whether or not it is cheating.

    But I do think women are trying to get a double standard that applies favourably to them – if their men slept with a prostitute (which is what they are, lets be honest) of either gender they would be outraged. But if they, as women, slept with a female prostitute it makes it okay and all of a sudden not cheating? Reminds me of Santana and Brittany in Glee – “It’s not cheating because…?” “The plumbing is different.”

    Clearly there are some very warped views of fidelity and monogamy out there.

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  22. Anonymous

    To me cheating is cheating no matter the circumstance. Whether it is with a guy or girl, physical or emotional cheating, its still (to me) cheating. He’s not just cheating on me, but our daughter…. cheating her out of a loving and trusting home. For me its a deal-breaker.

    my husband knows if he was to cheat then he would lose it all. And if a kiss/sex/ego boost is worth losing me, his daughter and the world we have then he isnt worthy of my heart and body.

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  23. Every relationship is a compromise. When you commit to someone, you deliberately put aside any feelings you may have for other people. And let’s face it, you never stop meeting new people who you like and are attracted to. But what you do change – or at least most of us change – is how we react to those feelings. Now when I meet someone and feel attracted to them, I acknowledge the attraction, but that’s it. I don’t feel any obligation to act on those feelings because I have made a commitment to my partner that I will only share my body with her…

    Is it strange that we all feel ownership over our partner’s bodies. Should we really expect “exclusiveness”? If my partner wanted to share a sexual experience with another person, do I really have the right to say no, or feel jealous. It’s her body after all, not mine…why do we feel uncomfortable with the idea of infidelity? Is it our own insecurities? Are we simply scared that our partners will find someone else more attractive…I don’t know…I don’t have answers to any of these questions…

    I’m not the jealous type, and in theory I don’t think I’d be threatened if my partner felt like sleeping with someone else…but who knows…I’ve never actually had to be confronted with this situation in real-life…

    At the same time, I know my partner does not feel the same in reverse…there’s no way she’d feel comfortable with me sleeping with someone else. Is that fair or realistic?…again, I don’t know.

    Maybe the world would be a simpler place if we all acknowledged that we sometimes feel attracted to other people. Maybe we’d all be happier if extra-curricular activities were part of every normal committed relationship…or maybe we’d all end up becoming unhappy and angry and jealous…

    One thing I do know…until I have a definitive answer either way, I’m going to stay 100% committed to my partner! I would do nothing to jeopardise our relationship…

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    • Anonymous

      LOVE everything you’ve said.

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  24. emmagooding

    Yay first comment! lol jks

    Anyways, this post reminded me of a conversation with a friend in math class. Let’s name her Sarah.

    Sarah:: Have you ever watched porn?
    Me:: Duh.
    Sarah:: Gay sex is HOT!!
    Me:: And you think I don’t know this… why?
    (Disclaimer: Sarah is straight. SOO straight. I, on the other hand, am currently bisexual.)

    Also, to all those people saying that the women should be dressed, and not looking so male-orientated, I have two words for you.

    Shane. McCutcheon.

    If you want hot lesbian sex, without the hassle of husbands and boyfriends and the fact that you are heterosexual, go watch The L Word.

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    • Tara

      I think Shane would make any woman gay…..drool!

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      • sandandsurf

        lol I’m the only gay woman (or woman full stop) who doesn’t find her attractive!

        Her girlfriend in the show on the other hand….mmmmm

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