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This is a hard story to stay on the fence about. I’m not going to try. I find it extremely distressing.
A Victorian couple have taken some pretty extraordinary steps in their quest for a daughter. In fact they have even gone to court to demand the right to choose the sex of their next child through IVF Selection.
The couple who have not yet been named have three sons, all born naturally (without IVF). They also conceived and gave birth to a daughter who died shortly after childbirth (in undisclosed circumstances).
The wife admits that she loves her sons but would do anything to have a daughter. She is clearly suffering some pretty horrific grief over her daughter’s death and she admits that she has become obsessed with having a daughter, even claiming it is vital to her psychological health
The couple say that they are not trying to replace their daughter, they just have enough sons and now want a girl. They “deserve” a daughter . The husband says “After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck. We want to be given the opportunity to have a girl.”
I am sure that many people believe they deserve a child. Any child.
But this couple recently terminated a twin pregnancy when they discovered that they were carrying two boys. Their reasoning? They don’t want any more boys and they could not continue to have unlimited numbers of children. They want to try IVF again but pre-select only girl embryos for implantation. I have not met the couple and I am sure that there are elements of this story that have not been conveyed by the media. If by “I am sure” you mean “I hope”.
Because to me, the idea of a healthy pregnancy being terminated due to the gender of the foetuses? That is impossible to comprehend.
I am all for choice. Termination is a reality that I accept and understand. But not because you aren’t happy with the sex of the baby. Like most women I have seen and experienced miscarriage and infertility all around me. Women who are desperate to have a child. Women who would do anything to have not lost the child they were carrying.
The Patient Review Panel, an independent medical body has rejected their bid to choose the gender of their next child and so the couple have taken their case to Victoria’s Civil and Administrative Tribunal which has the power to reverse the earlier decisions. The case will be heard in March.
According to Victoria’s Assisted Reproductive Treatment Act 2008 sex selection is banned unless it is necessary to avoid the risk of transmission of a genetic abnormality or genetic disease to a child. All IVF clinics in Australia also subscribe to National Health and Medical Research Council guidelines that say sex selection should not be done except to reduce the transmission of a serious genetic condition.
Professor Gab Kovacs who is one of Australia’s IVF pioneers (although he is not involved in this case) argues that the couple should be allowed to choose the sex of their next baby. He argues that sex selection will not harm anyone and that law should only be made to protect people from things that are going to damage them.
However, one only has to think of China and the gender imbalance to wonder if whether what is right for one individual couple is right for society as a whole.
Gene Ethics director, Dr Bob Phelps ,said he did not believe the couple should be allowed the choose the sex of their child. In fact he encourages them to adopt a child from overseas saying “I’m sorry they lost their daughter but, in the interests of society as a whole, they should seek some counselling for their grief and look for another way of getting a daughter into their family.”
The couple are so adamant that they want a daughter that they plan to go for IVF in the States if their case is not overturned.
Read here and here if you want to know more
Where do you stand, legalities aside? Do you think we should be allowed to select the sex of our children based on our desire for either a son or a daughter? Do you know the feeling of wanting a son/daughter so badly that you would go to any lengths?
[Thanks Lana]
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Comments
618 Comments so far
While I personally don’t agree with her decision, I am pro-choice, and if I believe that women should be able to abort if they don’t feel that they are in the right time of their lives to raise a child, or don’t want a child, then they should also be able to abort because they don’t want a child of that gender.
Pro choice is pro choice, everyone.
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as someone who has been trying to get pregnant for a year, this is a really difficult story to read. i can understand being a little disappointed with finding out it is the ‘wrong’ gender, for a minute or two, but terminating??? and wouldn’t they have to have been 20 weeks before gender could be determined..? i’ll leave it there.
also, for anyone using more ‘natural’ means to get a boy or girl, which I have no issue with, recent studies suggest that the Shettles method is no more effective than chance, and in some studies it was worse!!
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findigrella fix
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I actually think it is nobody’s business but the couple involved at hand. Over the last five years since IVF Gender Selection was made illegal here in Australia (and I should know because I looked into it myself several times), there has been many a voting poll regarding this topic because of such families that have all the one gender and what a baby of the opposite gender usually just to balance out the family dynamics and also for the experience in raising one of each gender.
The voting on these polls were always around 90% ‘No’, that families should not be allowed to select a particular gender. This in general helped to sway the government to still make Gender Selection in this country illegal. However, I bet that the large majority of people who voted ‘No’ had one of each gender and would have absolutely no idea what it feels to have 2, 3, 4 or even 5 of the same gender. Until, a couple is faced with this reality they should not comment or preach to others what is acceptable or not until they themselves are in those shoes. Families who have a large number of the same sex and what at least one of the opposite do so, not because they prefer boys over girls or vice versus, it is usually only based on as I mentioned before ‘balancing the genders in a family and also for the pleasure of raising two completely different genders that the majority of families all over the world have.
IVF Gender Selection when legal was only in the states of NSW and QLD. They found that only a very small selection of families would actually go ahead with gender selection usually of the costs involved. Medicare did not cover any part of the procedure, therefore families were up for the full amount which was around the $16,000 without travel expenses etc.
Why do I know this, because my husband and I looked into it the same month that it became illegal in Australia. It was also the same month that I conceived my 3rd boy. So for us it didn’t matter. If we were that desperate to conceive a girl we would have had to go to Bangkok for the procedure which costs around $8,000, the only facility associated with NSW IVF.
I personally, could not abort a pregnancy based on the gender just because I already had 3 boys and yes one cannot keep on getting pregnant just to get the correct gender. I also spent 18 months on researching, practicing, dieting, seeing specialist in the gender field with getting very high gender results (some who had helped a many celebrity in our country to get their preferred gender), naturpaths and not to mention the amount of money spent on tests and I still became pregnant with another son.
Please do not get me wrong. I love my sons to death they are the world to me, just as if I had daughters. I certainly do not prefer one gender over another and if I had daughters I would do exactly the same research as above to get a son. My husband and I just wanted the fantastic experience of raising both boys and girls. In both our families along with cousins, aunts, siblings, grandparents etc. We are the only family to have 3 of the same gender and it gets mentioned many times to us that you would think we had 3 martians from another planet and how disappointing that you didn’t have a little girl, would you try again?? Well, at 45 I guess no.
Back to abortions. I belong to a single gender forum and there has been several families who have aborted because they didn’t get the gender they desired. It does happen often. This recent case of the ivf twin boys is not uncommon. I think IVF Gender Selection should be legal for families who have 3 or more of the same gender and are willing to pay for it. I think it should not be allowed for families who have one child and want their second to be of the opposite sex.
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Sorry, but you’re offensive. Thank god you’ve got healthy children. Many people don’t. Count your blessings. Children are not toys. You can’t choose them. You can’t waste expensive medical technology to get the kind you want. Why don’t you and look at your beautiful boys? You’re already blessed and you’re throwing your life away to fulfil some hollow fantasy
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This is truelly a sad sad story. I feel nothing but sadness for these parents. It seems they have either missed out on or forgotton the joy of holding your baby for the first time, the wonder of their accomplishments, the anticipation as they take their first step,the excitement of hearing them say mum or dad for the first time. None of these feelings were different with my children and i have both genders. I am proud of both my children and am continually overwhelmed with the joy of parenthood.
I feel sad for the little babies that will never have the chance to make their parents proud, for no other reason than they were created as boys not girls. My son melts my heart just as much as my daughter, not because he’s a boy, but because he’s our child.
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I know a friend who, after several miscarriages, was devastated to think she’d not be able to have a second child. Once she became pregnant successfully, she was devastated to discover she was carrying another boy. My feelings about this friend changed a fair bit after that.
My thoughts: It’s all very well to wish and want for a daughter (or opposite sex child if you have had a series of the same sex) but are you perhaps not heaping a whole lot of unreasonable expectations on the ‘daughter’? What if you don’t end up with a girlie-girl or the little princess you dreamt of becomes your absolute worst nightmare? It’s just sad that two healthy little boys who would have been adored by so many childless couples were ejected just for being the wrong gender.
Enjoy the children you are given
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Didnt they learn in ‘thats life 101′ that you can’t always get what you want? I find the whole thing nothing short of disgusting.
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My husband and I have 4 wonderful boys. This story really makes me angry and sad. I understand the desire to have a daughter, my husband and I tried all different diets and positions to “make” a girl. But on my last pregnancy we had a scare that our baby could have down syndrome. I tell you I couldn’t care less that that baby was a boy or girl I just wanted it to be healthy and we loved that baby no matter what the outcome.
As it turns out our baby was fine and he was a much loved little boy. To think that these people aborted these babies because they were boys breaks my heart. Why didn’t they put them up for adoption?. I think they need some kind of therapy because this just isn’t right.
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My brain immediately goes, “This has a weird smack of eugenics about it.” There’s just something about it that I find very unpleasant. Granted, I am against abortion 90% of the time, but even without that viewpoint, I would find this situation a bit on the “They did WHAAAA!?” side.
However, what I don’t understand is why they couldn’t adopt. They evidently have the time and the money to spend on IVF, so theoretically the time and money spent on adoption fees and paperwork is feasible for them. That way they would not only be giving a child a loving home, but they would also be able to pick the gender. I suppose if they were the type to feel that the child must share their DNA to truly be “their” child, then they would not consider adoption to be an option. But surely it would be better than playing a strange sort of dice game with one’s unborn children. “Oh, this isn’t the one I wanted. Do-over!”
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I don’t have a problem with people choosing the sex of their ivf child in Australia – we do not have the same cultural values that China placed on having a male heir within the restriction of their one child policy.
The other upside is that it may reduce population overall which should be our ultimate goal as a world society- the earth is unable to sustain the growth of more than one or two children per couple.
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If this ever gets approved down the rabbit hole goes IVF. It will open a whole new scary ethical ground regarding IVF and embryonic selection. I really feel for this woman, but no.
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While I find this story incredibly heartbreaking there is a small part of me that understands the desperation that has pushed this couple to make this decision.
The irony is that I’m in almost exactly the opposite situation – my husband and I have been battling infertility for two years and are desperate for a child. In fact, we’d love, more than anything, to have twin boys!
This all-encompassing desire can lead you down paths you wouldn’t have thought you would consider – so in that respect I can see how the couple have ended up in this situation. I’m saddened by their decision, but I can’t judge them. I can stay on the fence with this one. I can also say I understand the desire for a particular gender.
I also think some counselling may help the couple, if they haven’t already sought it out.
What concerns me most about this story is this statement: “However, one only has to think of China and the gender imbalance to wonder if whether what is right for one individual couple is right for society as a whole.”
This is a totally flawed argument (bordering on scare-mongering) as our culture/society doesn’t place a higher importance on male children the way China does and has done for centuries. Australians value male and female children equally and it is highly unlikely we will see a sudden imbalance in genders due to IVF recipients (which number a small percentage of the population) being allowed to choose the gender of their children.
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This story saddens me… I cannot believe that this couple aborted two healthy babies because they didn’t like the sex?? I think of the women and couples out there desperate to have a child of their own and would be so grateful to have even one child let alone twins. What selfish, selfish people. They should not be allowed to have another baby, at least until they get the psychiatric help they need.
I am pro-choice, I believe it is a women’s right etc to decide if needed to have an abortion… I don’t condone abortion when its because you aren’t pregnant with the sex of the baby you wanted… if you want a baby but don’t ‘want’ a boy then you shouldn’t be having children in the first place! What MOST people wish for is a healthy, happy baby… who cares about the gender!! I think the real question is, that if you allow people to choose the sex of their baby… where do you draw the line? Soon people will abort a child because they have brown eyes when they wanted them to be blue??
I don’t even really know what else to say… I look at my son and think how blessed I am to have a child when so many people struggle.. he is my everything!! I cannot understand how this couple could have aborted their healthy boys for no other reason than they wanted a girl!! Utterly disgusting
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Firstly, couples, and I fear women more predominantly, have been trying to ‘get a girl or a boy’ by different methods for ever, eg; the woman shouldn’t come first, only have sex in the couple of days before the woman becomes fertile, eat only non acidic foods, stand on your head after sex, and the like, have been recipes for boys and girls for ages. There are many books and resources on the topic. The only thing different about doing it by IVF is that you are being more exact, and clearly have a shitload more money to burn. I personally think there is a massive problem if that means that you ‘will ONLY ACCEPT the gender of preference’ and use abortion as the back space key. The people this post is about surely need some serious help, which I sincerely hope they get before they get the opportunity to fuck up another child. I seriously don’t think they are fit parents for the children they have, much less more children, but that is a whole other issue.
Now the thing I wasn’t sure about admitting is my theory on who gets girls and who gets boys, which is this: princesses (you know the type of girls I’m talking about) only get boys, and even thought they often say they’d love a girl, there is only room for one princess in that house, and the resident princess would, in all likelihood, not like to share that limelight. Princess’s go for a certain type of guy, often the macho man, who brings home the bacon. We all know that it is the sperm that determines the sex of the baby, and macho men have more testosterone than their less macho brothers, who are more likely to have girls, or a mix of both sexes. This theory has been proven right in ALL instances of the families of my siblings, extended family, friends, and acquaintances, except for one case; my princess sister in law has ended up with two boys following their first which was a girl. Princess SIL apologised to my niece for not being able to give her a sister and niece said “that’s okay, now I don’t have to share any of my things”, which actually just supports the ‘only one princess per house’ theory.
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Hahahaha! Your princess theory seems somewhat scientifically flawed, but I’m going to have fun seeing if I can verify it amongst my social circles – all on the quiet, of course
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how did you go???
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Actually, I heard years ago that a study found that men with higher testosterone levels were more likely to produce girls, same as ivf is likely to produce slightly more girls too.
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Just quietly, I think you need to ask a scientist how to define “proven”.
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I don’t see what all the fuss is about. This is a couple who had already had three sons and they really needed a daughter so they decided to abort and try for a daughter.
A woman should have body autonomy rights too because she is also a human-being just like men. So pregnancy should not be an excuse to deprive a woman of the right to control her body.
Since it is the woman who has to go through lots of pain during prengnancy and especially during childbirth, she must be given the right to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reasons.
Every woman is an expert on her life. I wish all these narrow-minded people had been aborted so that this world would have been a much better place for women to live.
Oh Gosh I can’t imagine just how awful it must be for a woman forced by people such as the author of this article to go through nine months of an unwanted pregnancy with twins!! Not to mention that each pregnancy would put a woman’s life greatly at risk!
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I am speechless.
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As am I.
Except to say that you get what you’re given. Not from God, but genetics. If you don’t want to take the “risk” of having the “wrong” sex, then STOP. It ain’t that hard.
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They don’t need another child, they need to focus on the three that they have, i wonder what it feels like to have your parents tell the nation that they are not really wanted and that only a girl will make their lives complete!!
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well said, the poor boys
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I think it may have been more palatable if this couple had the children and gave them up for adoption. Their pain would have bought joy and happiness to someone else. Human life is precious in all its forms. I appreciate their right to choose not to have more boys but that is quite different to choosing to terminate a healthy pregnancy when you have the support and means to carry it. There is an enormous shortage of children available for adoption in Australia. Their “bad luck” as they see it could have been another persons blessing.
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How selfish of you to expect a woman to go through all that pain of pregnancy and childbirth just to put up her child for adoption at the end.
“Shortage of children” in Australia?! Weird, but even if that is true, it doesn’t give one an excuse to turn women into baby-making factories to produce children for other couples.
You only THINK you are all for a woman’s choice; but in reality you are not. You are just another anti-choice woman hater.
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I am pro-choice however I don’t believe this includes terminating because of the sex of your child… soon people will terminate if they find out there baby won’t have blue eyes… where do you draw the line??
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Sorry, who is being selfish here? I think it may be the parents.
In relation to pro-choice, while most people support it I also think most people have conditions to that. It doesn’t make them “anti-choice women haters”.
Pro-choice because you don’t like the gender? Look up Sen’s article on “missing women”.
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There’s plenty of children who need long term foster carers
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imagine being one of their boys and reading in the media that your father says : ‘After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck.’ I’d feel like my very existence to be a massive disspaoiuntment. Imagine feeling you are ‘bad luck’. How crushing.
Did they realy think losing one kid entitles them to ‘a bit of luck’?? Give me a break. Read the paper, visit the third world, do something to get your heads out of your priveldge middle-class butts. (NO OFEENCE meant whatsoever to anyone who has lost a child- I can’t pretent to comprehend that pain, hoever, for many people, life hands them a string of bitter pills, we don’t all get one bad experience and then get to feel entitled to have everything perfect after that.)
I wanted my second child to be a boy. She wasn’t. Yes, I was dissapointed, still am sometimes, but THAT IS LIFE. We don’t always get what we want, even in our proviledged first-world. She is showing me her inner beauty and teaching me lots about myself.
I suspect that if this couple end up a girl- she will be a spoilt, self-centered little Princess. Or perhaps a tomboy who wants nothing pink or flouncy.
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I lost my second child, a baby girl, at five and a half months so I understand the need to have another baby girl. When the ultrasound for my third child revealed I was carrying a boy I was upset for about half a second and then promptly fell in love with the idea of having another son. Why? Because you should be grateful for the privelege of giving life. My two sons are my joy, and yes, my husband and I still wish for another daughter but we are not prepared to have more kids just to pursue that selfish desire. We are proud of our two sons and of our precious daughter who passed. We are blessed and we are grateful for what we have. Having experienced grief personally I really think these people are deeply disturbed and need help.
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‘The Original Camille’, I know that feeling all too well. My father walked out on my mother because I wasn’t the son he desperately wanted (he already had 4 daughters with his wife).
I can honestly say that I felt like the biggest disappointment to both my parents growing up, and it only got worse in school when the kids would tease me, saying I must’ve been a really bad kid to have my dad walk out. UGH, school was the most horrible time of my life!
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Ironically, of course, it was HIS sperm that determined your sex.
oh dear. That’s very sad.
I hope shcool is now a distant memory, and that yuio are surrounded by family and firends who love appreciate you for who you are, what you achieve, your talents and inner beauty.
x
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i am the mother of three grown sons who i loved very much ,would i have loved a daughter ? of course, but you cant aiways have what you want in this life. I am now the very proud grandma of two little girls so all things come to those who wait
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I think this couple needed time to get past their psychological issues before even thinking of having another baby.
Losing a baby would mean extreme trauma. They needed much more time and healing.
Now, 2 babies died for a terrible reason. I can’t even imagine an Australian couple aborting children because the sex was not what they wanted.
In the future, surely they will also be traumatised by the choice they made – I can’t imagine either of them feeling emotionally healthy for a long time to come, if ever.
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I am pro choice but believe this woman and her husband need help. Before she becomes a mother again she needs to talk to someone about this.
Of course nothing will ever make the pain go away for good but she still needs help.
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Well said. They have issues which need to be dealt with before they conceive again. I think it was the father’s comments that really got to me, with so many people having problems conceiving it is beyond belief that he would say that they ‘deserve a daughter’. I hope their existing sons aren’t scarred by all this. They say they have enough sons…oh dear, they need a really good psychatrist.
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Thank you. One day their sons will find out about this and this will screw them up.
I hope I never experience losing a baby but you can never replace a child.
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I think the dream and wishes of the fact of having the sex they want is just that. A WANT ..> its not A NEED
THEY NEED THERAPY
THEY ARE NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE TO THIER EXISTING BOYS
THE MEDIA SHOULD NOT HAVE ADVERTISED THEIR PROBLEM AS THE MAN UP ABOVE KNOWS HOW MANY MALES AND FEMALES ARE NEEDED TO BALANCE THE WORLD
THEY NEED TO GET A REAL LIFE OF THEIR OWN
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I had trouble conceiving in my mid to late 30′s
I finally conceived and prayed for a healthy pregnancy and healthy baby – again the second time it was the same. I had two the same sex – boys and no matter what we wish for we need to get reall and realise we are fortunate to mother any sex of a child. Each sex has its set of beliefs ideals etc etc but babies are not like buying lollies when you can take them back if you dont like the taste.
I think parenting is a big job and its up to you to respect your child and likewise teach them to respect you and others back.
You need to teach children morals and values no matter whether you have a a faith or not.
We need to make our world a better place a Heaven here and now.
So i really feel this couple has sincere beliefs dreams and wishes that are only setting themselves up for more dissapointment. Have they ever though that this baby girl will grow up one day and may not be the child they hoped for or the relationship of a mother and daughter that is wished for as your daughter is not always your friend. And fact is that mothers and daughters have a love/hate relationship or just one simply gives in for peace. No thanks
We dont own our children they are free to live their lives like you lived yours and this is not living praying and hoping for a particular sex to answer your prayers. Get some real help, have a holiday and enjoy your health and life now before you ruin the whole family and you loose the lot.
Sorry to be honest but i have been there and so many others have – people like this dont want kids they WANT TOYS
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While pregnant for the second time i lost count of the number of people who “hoped” i would have a girl since i already had a boy. I know many pregnant couples who have hoped for one gender over the other. While this is not the same as aborting their child because it wasn’t the ‘right’ gender, it still points to a culture which prefers one sex over the other merely because you have the other one already. i refused to hope for a girl because i wanted my child just as they are – how guilty i would have felt when my son was born and i realised he wasn’t ‘perfect’
I think designer babies at ANY level, even if it is just gender is wrong because it defines a standard for children when we should see them for the blessing they are and accept them as they are and see perfection in how God created them.
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The thing is, there is no guarantee that they will ever get their girl. Even if they have an infine number of rounds of IVF there is still no guarantee.
I agree, they need some serious psychological help, and no doubt so will their existing three boys when they grow up and inevitably find out what has happened.
Personally, I am mulling over going down the IVF route with gender selection if/when I have my second child, due to the fact that I have the breast cancer gene. I do not want my potential daughter to ever go through what I have gone through, which is breast cancer at age 30. On the other hand, who is to know what might happen in cancer treatment and detection within the next 30-odd years?
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Karen your potential daughter would not have to go through breast cancer, she could choose to have a double mastectomy to preempt breast cancer. I know women who have done this.
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What kind of choice is that Catherine? To open up a child to the risk of a fatal disease? Sounds very selfish to me.
I think you may be disregarding the emotional, physical and pyschological damage that an operation such as a double mastectomy brings. Also, as with any operation, there is no guarantee you’ll wake up from it.
I think the more responsible decision is to choose to have a male child who won’t suffer either the disease of breast cancer or the horror of having a double mastectomy.
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What I find interesting in these posts and also in discussions I have with people about abortion, is that peoples position seems to fluctuate.
For me, it’s a very black and white issue:
either you believe in abortion- believe it’s the choice of the woman in question and not a deprivation of another persons life
OR
you believe that abortion is killing a baby.
How can it be sometimes OK to abort and other times, NOT OK?
It either IS or it ISN’T. I find some people hypercritical on this topic.
If people truly believe that abortion is killing a baby then how can they sometimes make exceptions (rape, etc)? So sometimes it’s OK to kill a baby but not other times??
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see I find that hard too- I believe that women should have the right to choose, but choose wisely and in situations that warrant it…but you are right – it is either okay to do or not okay to do…then again…what if it is a situation where the baby will die naturally in utero anyway…its just so complicated?
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I know a lot of people will disagree with this, but I think that a woman and man’s right to choose is when they decide to have sex (of course that excludes rape but that is another issue). I don’t subscribe to the idea that an embryo is merely part of the woman’s body and then suddenly when it reaches a certain age it has the right to life. Upon conception it has its own unique genetic code after all and, in my understanding, is linked and reliant on its mother but not an extension of her. People are up in arms when a disabled child is killed yet many think it is ok to terminate their life simply because they haven’t been born yet? This couple is being criticised, yet there are many women who terminate because they aren’t ready for any child (as opposed to a male child)
I’m not trying to undermine the real difficulties many pregnant women face or trivialise the decisions that lead to abortions. I acknowledge and appreciate that, but (just like once the child is born) i think an unborn baby’s right to life is sacred no matter what.
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I find the fact that 2 perfectly healthy babies where aborted for no reason other than gender, frankly, abhorrent. I can not understand anyone condoning this behaviour – 2 little people will never be born, grow, bring joy and change the world. The notion of ‘wasting’ IVF is immaterial. Whether conceived naturally or via IVF, if these people did not want boy babies they should not have attempted to get pregnant. They should not, now or ever, be allowed to choose the sex of any subsequent pregnancies and neither should anybody else. If this family are allowed to choose the sex of another pregnancy it will change our world view, maybe not immediately but eventually, and this kind of story will become commonplace and that is something I cannot bear thinking about.
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This story is very upsetting.
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This is such a distressing story on so many levels.
So many women have trouble conceiving or carrying their babies to term, can’t afford IVF or do not fall into the ‘guidelines’ for adoption. Selfish people like this, seem to rub salt into all the wounds of women who are desperate for a child. ANY child.
I believe that the woman involved has many mental health issues that need to be dealt with before she tries to have a girl baby.
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I am torn between extreme anger and imeasurable sadness after reading this. I have lost three babies to miscarriage and I would do anything to have them back. I an now a mother to a wonderful, funny, cheeky, intelligent and delightful boy. I consider myself hugely blessed to have just one. Some people don’t even get that. This story saddened me even more because my son’s pregnancy began as twins – we lost one of the feotus’ at 13 weeks. Every single day I wonder about my son’s twin. As I said though, I consider myself incredibly blessed. I know the heartache suffered by one of my best friends and also my sister who are childless. To hear of two healthy children being terminated because they were the “wrong” gender – it just makes me weep. There are so many families who would have gladly loved and raised these boys. There are also other options for welcoming a girl into this family’s life without the need for terminating the “wrong” babies along the way. One only has to do minimal research into overseas adoption to see how many children are in need of loving families the world over. I sincerely hope that this family is given access to the counselling that it so obviously needs. For the sake of the parent’s psychological wellbeing, for the sake of the 3 boys that they already have and for the sake of daughter that they so desperately desire.
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I am horrified by this story. This couple sounds very disturbed and whilst a sad story, need psychological help – not more children. Think about the daughter that they may eventually have (they “deserve” her right?). Will she ever be able to live up to the expectations and ‘obsession’ the family has for a daughter? What if she is a tomboy? Prefers playing football with her brothers rather than playing with dolls..?
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yes…and oooh, what if she’s gay!
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My point exactly.
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Good article by Leslie Cannold:
http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/parents-preference-for-pink-or-blue-is-not-enough-20110115-19rs9.html
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I do not understand the desire for a boy or a girl exclusively – how can potential parents give preference to one sex over the other? Is it purely for selfish reasons? They want their little princess or footy superhero??
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Imagine what life is like for those other boys…they aren’t girls…So imagine what life would be like for the twin boys they never wanted?
I feel sad for the loss of them. I have two beautiful boys (4 years and 4 months). I am so thankful for knowing them both and would never exchange them for girls. Sure, a daughter would be wonderful, however my life is fulfilled by being able to have children regardless of their sex. These people are mentally unfit and need desperate pschological help. I’m pro choice, but I don’t think one sex is better than the other. I dont believe society should be given a choice about the sex of children. That is the way nature intended.
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Can you imagine what it is like living under that roof right now. Gives me the creeps thinking about it. Hopefully nobody gives them what they “deserve” except for some serious counselling.
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I have the most divine identical 4 yr old twin boys (naturally conceived)
We have had our hard times – twins full stop is stressful, but now as they get older, things are getting easier, and they are the absolute love of my life.
i am pro choice
but
this story makes me so sad – those little lives lost, those two little boys that didnt get to share a life, because their parents are deeply distressed.
its just sad
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I see two issues being discussed:
The first – when can a woman “legitimately” abort a pregnancy. Apparently not “merely” because she does not like the gender, or perhaps not “merely” because it is a twin pregnancy. I wonder what other circumstances are “merely” immoral choice? I think it is very dangerous when we start dictating when a woman can abort a pregnancy on moral grounds.
I also find demands that the couples access to future IVF procedures be limited on moral grounds worrying a tad illogical. The couple should be denied access – unselected – because they are immoral and want to select the sex of their baby? It is ok to select parents, but not future babies. Hmm….
I don’t know that anyone has the right to play moral judge when it comes to others bodies and choices. If you are prochoice, then you must be prochoice in all circumstances. This woman felt that she could not parent the potential babies. She should be allowed to abort the pregnancy without judgement.
I am sure the objection is because of the IVF. Why is the complaint then not this couple wasted medicare dollars? Why the moral outrage?
IVF is not a natural process, it seems funny to demand “natural sex” selection, why not allow them to chose the sex?
The moral outrage confuses me.
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You misunderstand one very important thing about IVF. IT is not choosing ‘parents’ as you imply. The chances of IVF working at best are 50% and this number drops with the woman’s age. So doctors are not choosing parents by performing this procedure, God still is.
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Not really as god has chosen to not let them be parents at all, if nature runs it’s course.
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Faybian, perhaps you can look at it a different way, that is God has chosen to let them be parents, by giving them the gift of IVF.
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Oh I dont know if emotion over-spill-eth here but God chose me not to be a mother, or many of my friends, because we used IVF to help us? Dangerous ground….
All I can say is that I am a good, loving mum, and my friends that I speak of are some of the most caring, loving, selfless mothers I know.
God may create natural birth, but he has also created the science behind IVF – but like all that created we must be tender for how we care for it..
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You’re assuming there is a god.
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The moral outrage stems from a belief that an unborn child has the same right to life as one that has been born, at all levels of gestation. it is not focussed on telling a woman what she can or can’t do.
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Whilst I have no problems with people choosing the sex of their baby through IVF, I do find it repulsive that someone would abort two healthy babies because they don’t meet their ‘sex’ requirement.
I have two girls, would love a boy, would love to be able to ‘choose’ to have a boy. However if i fall pregnant with another girl, I will be overjoyed and would never consider aborting.
If i had the chance to select the gender through IVF would I do it? Yes I probably would. If this failed and I had another girl, would I abort? Never
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absolutely agree!
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It just proves SOME people should NOT be allowed to breed!
I am not permitted to, so others shouldnt either!
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After sitting on the fence about this issue – the right to choose sex, not the issue of terminating two healthy children (of which I am still unable to comprehend) – I am now certian of where I stand.
No – to choosing gender. Simple.
I have IVF to thank for the conception of my beautiful 4 year old son and I willbe eternally grateful for the medical marvels and even those bills that poured throuhg my doors (and contiunue to do so).
I was listenign to someone on the radio yesterday (an ethicist) and she was talking about his issue. And I admit she was my catalyst to jump off the fence … to roughly paraphrase what I *heard* “we have fought too hard for IVF and the precious being that it creates, for it to become ‘squandered’ (at this point I am sure this is NOT her words she chose )by such superficial wants”
In saying this, bless that family as they hoping they move beyond this to a place where they find peace.
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Haha – I have switched (kindof) again.. just a little.. well more of a question really to you all…
If our preferences (as a nation) are to want a boy AND a girl largely then what does that mean if we were to be supported in that?
I know the negatives mentioned – i.e. designer babies..
But what about the positives – poputlation decrease?
Thoughts?
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I also have concerns about population decrease and also that of the rights of each sex. If there is an unbalance in the sexes, how will this effect other social issues that relate to each individual sex?
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I don’t agree.
I hardly think it’s squandering IVF for a couple to gender select their child so their baby has a lower chance of inheriting a genetic disorder.
You thank IVF for your healthy son, surely others should have to option to do the same.
For a long time people could gender select and there was hardly a rush in people going through IVF so they could have their girly girl or much wanted boy.
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Amy S – for a genetic disorder – no – but for superficial reasons yes… I guess the issue is what defines ‘superficial’… perhaps to some gender selection is not superficial?
and yes, ivf is hardly a process you are going to rush and do if you can otherwise avoid it.. could not agree more…
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So, two boys are not worth as much as one girl? that’s pretty disgusting…
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This story has really made me assess the boundaries associated with my pro choice stance – the parents ‘choice’ just does not sit well.
http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/abortion_of_twins_exposes_twisted_logic/
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Sorry if I appear callous – but ….
If you are stressed because you can’t have a blue-eyed, blond-haired, perfect baby girl, then I recommend some therapy, a pill and the counting of your many blessings. You could adopt of course – but then – I guess that child wouldn’t be perfect enough. Geez.
I’m not dispassionate to the those who face challenge around child bearing/fertility. The yearning to pro-create is as fundamental to our humanity. Its in our biology as it is in all living organisms – perpetuation of the species and regardless of any wrapping we humans choose to place around it – someones religion, pornography, ritual or tax policy.
I’m surprised there’s even a case to be heard! How could anyone sanction the killing of otherwise viable healthy life or seek it for that matter – on the basis of “I want, I want”.
I might just pursue the right to bare arms: The next DJs “Annual Sale”. You see I just HAVE TO have those Dior Sunglasses – 50% off and I’ll simply die if I don’t. Sob Sob. Shoot me – please.
I’m a childless woman who would so much prefer to be otherwise, yet I still take issue that so much money is pumped into IVF when there are so many other seemingly more pressing needs when it comes to human suffering. The many living people with less “fashionable” ailments that miss out on research funding (money usually goes where money is to made). Our shameful neglect when it comes to Mental Health. We humans can be very ugly creatures.
We live in the age of ME ME ME where the driving determinant is “can I get away with it?” The consequences of this new paradigm are everywhere. Increasing tensions and failures. The slow erosion of infrastructure, jobs, opportunity et al – the quality of our lives. So many of the good things generations worked hard to create. Effort rooted in collective values and vision – as distinct from rampant selfishness.
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disgusted. that is all.
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I am pro choice and also have secondary infertility, this story makes me feel so sick and angry! Maybe this women should go and have a look in the infertility threads on Essential Baby and see the pain that a lot of women go through just to try and have 1 child! Let people that really need IVF have access to it and stop people like this filling up the system. They should never of been able to access IVF in the first place.
“They “deserve” a daughter . The husband says “After what we have been through we are due for a bit of luck. We want to be given the opportunity to have a girl.””
Those 2 little boys deserved a life, not have their lives taken away due to the selfishness of their parents. They choose to have IVF and have another child and then just toss these babies aside because they aren’t the child they want. There are many families out there that deserve to have children and can’t, but would of happily raised these boys
.
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I am pro choice too and would never abort because I didn’t want a boy.
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I am disgusted by this story- As the mother of a beautiful, healthy baby boy I was so angry that people say “A girl next would be nice’. A healthy baby is all I ask for, and I feel so grateful to have a child when I see other people struggle with infertility.
This couple does not sound mentally stable and I think they should feel lucky to just have not one, but three children.
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I think in Australia, where there is no clear cultural bias toward sons versus daughters or vice versa, there could be a case for allowing gender selection.
However, we don’t have gender selection in this country and that couple knew that before they underwent the treatment. If the risk of another boy was so horrifying to them, they should have gone to the US in the first place and not had the treatment. Anyone who aborts healthy foetuses simply because they’re unhappy with the sex, should be legally barred from further IVF treatment.
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I agree Caitlin…I don’t think we’d have the same situation as China with gender imbalance as I’m thinking it would mostly be used to balance the gender within families.
I really, really feel for this couple but yeah, have to say I find it very hard that they actually went through with the termination. Being a mum of two boys I know the sadness of not, and most likely at this stage, never having a daughter. I’d always pictured myself with a daughter and knowing I won’t be playing girl games and sharing secret women’s business with someone of my own flesh and blood can sometimes be downright heartwrenching – if I dwell on it, but I don’t. I focus on the positives which is that I have the two most delightful boys in the world
I’ve digressed, while I can’t imagine in my wildest dreams actually going through a termination of two healthy babies, I can imagine contemplating it (if that makes any sense). If they went through the pregnancy, they would have five sons. In their grief that future was just too awful to contemplate and that’s why they did it. As for letting them select the gender fo their next child, I’m with Gab – it’s not hurting anyone..
Just on an end note, our society is so geared towards having girls it can be sad, not to mention, annoying being a mum of only boys. The amount of comments (mostly negative) I get is ridiculous! And I’ve only got two!
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You will have girls in your life, Mandy. One day there will be wonderful girlfriends, daughters-in-law and perhaps granddaughters with whom you can share secret women’s business. Although I have sons and daughters, now that they are adults they are simply wonderful people and the bonus is that they have equally wonderful partners – and there are four grandsons to love.
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I understand your desire for a daughter, Mandy, and also totally empathise with the negative comments about being a mother of boys – I have 3 sons, and 1 daughter. 2 of my sons are identical twins, and when I was pregnant with them, so many people offered sympathy because I was having 2 more boys. Not that I needed it, I was thrilled and still am to be the mother of 3 glorious boys. In the situation being discussed, I’m at a loss to understand how any parent could make the decision these people have – knowing how hard so many women work to get their twins to a ‘viable’ gestation, I am sickened by the termination of twin boys simply because of their sex.
Anyone who has conceived via IVF and chooses to terminate because they’re not happy with the sex of the baby/babies should never be allowed to access IVF again.
Don’t let the negative comments of others hurt you – enjoy your beautiful boys, and know that if you’d only had girls, you’d still be getting the negative comments! My girl is a sweet, kind, affectionate 8 year old, and I cannot tell you how many people have said “You just wait until she’s a teenager.”
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Grief is a terrible, terrible thing. To lose a child must be one of the most distressing pains imaginable and it is no wonder that this couple are distressed. What does concern me is that they are citing their grief as a reason that explains and justifies their actions. If having a little girl is vital to the mother’s psychological health then I have grave concerns about her mental stability and preparedness for a new baby, boy or girl.
Before having plastic surgery it is common practice that the patient undergo counselling if there are any question marks over their intentions and motivations. Is this not the case for IVF? If not, it certainly should be. What kind of doctor would allow this couple to undergo such a draining medical experience as IVF in this state of mind, much less a pregnancy?!
This couple is clearly not ready for anything but some counselling.
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This story in the media has consumed my thoughts for days. I am distraught by the fact that a couple could terminate a pregnancy based on gender. I have seen many documentaries on this new process of gender selection through IVF and find it to be disturbing. Though I commend the assistance IVF provides infertile women and also women prone to conceiving babies with genetic defects, gender selection is something that should never be considered acceptable. I don’t want to sound extreme but it reminds me of Nazi Germany.
As a woman who is pregnant with her first child and who has seen several people around her struggle to fall pregnant, my only hope is for a healthy baby. Anyone that should hope for anything else concerns me.
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