Australian women giving birth in private hospitals have a caesaerean rate of 41 percent. Public hospitals: 28 percent. Could this be where the expression ‘too posh to push’ came from? And is it a legitimate label for women who choose to have a caesarean for non-medical reasons?
Leslie Cannold, author, researcher and medical ethicist recently argued in The Age that the right to an elective casaerean should apply to every woman. She writes…..
“Mention Australia’s caesarean section rate and collective tongues start wagging. It’s too high, the experts say.
In 1997, 20 per cent of women gave birth by caesarean. By 2007, the rate had climbed to 31 per cent, where it has remained since. This is at least double the 10 to 15 per cent rate recommended by the World Health Organisation.
But the WHO ideal is 25 years out of date. Britain’s Parliamentary Office of Science and Technology says that if the organisation repeated the exercise used to arrive at the initial figures, it would come up with a “rather higher range”.
This is because the recommendation was derived from figures in countries that had the lowest mortality rates at the time and today, few countries have c-section rates below 15 per cent.
Caesarean rates follow the money. Australian women giving birth in private hospitals had a c-section rate of 41 per cent, compared with 28 per cent for those in the public system.
Staff and institutional attitudes also play a part. A comparison of two British hospitals found that caesarean rates were lower in the institution where women lacked the “freedom” to “express a preference for caesarean section” and higher where women were “given information about the known relative risks of [caesarean and vaginal birth" and allowed to "make . . . the final choice"."]
Such findings should sound alarm bells to those concerned with the right of women to make autonomous choices about their medical care. Several studies suggest that most women want to have their babies the old-fashioned way. Guesstimates of those who have no medical indicators but want a caesarean anyway are between 3 and 15 per cent. Such figures fit with the observation of the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO) that most women will act to improve their chance of having a normal birth and healthy baby if they have access to the necessary information and support. In other words, most pregnant women will choose the option medical staff tell them is in their, and their foetus’s, best interest.
But what if they don’t? What if women have no risk factors for a c-section, and are not being told by their doctors that they should have one (the scenario for most lumped in the confusingly named “elective cesarean” category), but want to have one anyway. They want to schedule a caesarian because they are scared of labor, or because they want to lower their risk of pelvic floor damage and incontinence or because they had one last time and despite being told could safely attempt a VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Cesarean) they feared rupture or because they tore so badly last time the preferred the costs of c-section to risking that again or because it had taken them years to fall pregnant and the believed, rightly or wrongly, a c-section was the safest for the baby or just because they do, and that’s all they have to say about that.
As it happens, there is according to a 2009 Report by the FIGO Committee for the Study of Ethical Aspects of Human Reproduction and Women’s Health, there is “no hard evidence on the relative risks and benefits of term caesarean delivery for non-medical reasons, as compared with vaginal delivery.” Please, read that quote again carefully, It does not say there is no hard evidence on the relative risk and benefits of c-section for all reasons versus vaginal birth, but no hard evidence on the relative risks and benefits of caesarean delivery for non-medical reasons compared with vaginal delivery. This makes emphatic assertions by health experts that vaginal birth is safer than elective caesarean for women with no medical indications for c-section worth less than a hill of beans.
But even if medicos had the evidence on which to base an agreed recommendation about non-medically indicated caesareans, women would still have the right to pick the medically less-preferred option. Indeed, the freedom to review and evaluate the risk-benefit profile of all available medical options and to make a decision based on one’s own needs and values is what informed choice is all about.
If every time a medical professional thought one medical option was superior (on the basis of some, none or good evidence) he was empowered to simply chose it on the patient’s behalf, we would no longer be operating in an environment of informed consent, but one dominated by the medical paternalism of yesteryear.
The bottom line is that – short of engaging in self- or child abuse – women don’t have to prove to health professionals that their healthcare choices are good or worthy ones to be entitled to make them. Nor, and sadly much like their doctors, must they prove they are evidence-based.
Pregnant women can choose a glass of wine with dinner, to have their baby by caesarean and to give it a bottle instead of the breast.
As long as women are making their decisions freely and on the basis of a substantial understanding of the medical and other matters relevant to them, that is an informed and voluntary choice, and that choice belongs to them.
Did you have an elective caesarean? Did you deliver vaginally against your will? Do you think women should make this decision or should it be in the hands of the medical professionals?







Comments
824 Comments so far
Hi all, came across this site and just had to write in. I had 2 babies 18 months apart via ‘elective’ Caesarian. I never, ever, wanted a natural birth and have had no interest whatsoever in attempting one. My obstetrician tried at first to question my decision and relayed pros and cons of both birthing types. He accepted and supported my decision and I have had the most overwhelmingly positive and relaxed birth experiences. My husband and I agree this was the absolute best way for us to have welcomed our children into the world. I was up and walking the very next day following both births and pain was VERY manageable on Tramadol for a couple of days and then plain Panadol for another two days. I prepared my body on both occasions by keeping weight gain to a healthy 11 kilos and going to the gym 3 or 4 times a week for cardio and weight training. I believe this greatly assisted my speedy recovery. My scar is about 10cms long and completely covered by a bikini brief. I have had no complications and returned to exercise 6 and 4 weeks respectively, following both births. I love the empowering experience of my births and the most wonderful memories of being completely happy and relaxed as I welcomed my children into my life. Childbirth exactly as I always wanted it. My experience has in fact inspired many of my friends to birth the same way.
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A vagina stretched and torn and ruined ? No thanks. Give me the C Section anytime. My pelvic floor and vagina are in tip top shape. I can jump on a trampoline and skip rope unlike my peers.
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There is a much higher cost to the health care system for a caesarean compared to a vaginal birth. There are limited resources for health care which needs to be spent on life saving procedures, this is why women are required to pay for breast augmentation rather than have it covered by public health care. Why shouldn’t the same apply to elective caesereans? If there is no medical reason for surgery then why should the tax payer foot the bill?
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Satire, the same DOES apply. Elective caesareans are only available in private hospitals; in the public health system only women needing a medically-necessary caesarean are eligible. Please check your facts!!
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Finally! Someone with the guts to say “Give women the right to choose!”. All the natural birth campaigners and midwives go on and on about empowering women to make choices but actually all they’re doing is trying to impose their philosophy on you. For some reason, tolerance and pluralism goes out the window when it comes to opinions on how to give birth, breast-feeding, raising kids.
As long as you’re not putting yourself or your baby’s life at immediate risk, you should be able to birth however you like and not have to justify it to anyone.
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If you can get a boob job without medical reasons, surely you should be able to get a vaginal bypass on request?
Why the hell do medical professionals push VB onto women?
I had such a bad experience with my first baby that I am seriously thinking CS for the second. There is no medical reason for it, but after spending a year in emotional trauma, trying to make sense of the horror of an unmediated VB, I think there is enough of a personal reason.
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nobody has the right to look down on another for having an ‘elective’ c-section. mind your own business, i say. as long as the bub is healthy, who cares.
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I had a vaginal birth for my twins 14 weeks ago. Prior to my birth I thought I wanted a caesarean to minimize pain and maximize control. My private obstetrician (I delivered in a public hospital as a private patient) asked me what delivery method I favoured and we talked about my ‘fears’ of birth (ie the pain!) Both heads were down so I was able to attempt a vaginal birth with an epidural, this was also the preferred method of delivery suggested by my doctor. I was lucky. I had an amazing birth and had no severe complications and no pain (god bless epidurals! I had one before a single contraction). I would definitely follow the suggestions of an experienced doctor who had my babies and my best interests at heart.
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I don’t think it is as black and white as that. The doctor has responsibility for whatever decision is made, and there are risks to the mother and baby with caesarean section. So, yes the mother should obviously have a say in the matter, but I don’t believe that doctors should be performing caesarean section just because of a mother’s request. The patient factors and risk/benefits need to be taken into account, and often this is a medical decision, and should not always be done simply at the request of mother, even if she does make informed consent. The aim is always to have a healthy mother and baby at the end of the delivery.
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Why shouldn’t a woman birth which ever way she wants? Its HER body, her choice.
I had 2 homebirths. And I would equally defend to the utmost another woman’s wish to have an elective caesarean.
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It’s really nice to read such a supportive comment for another woman’s choices.
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I had an emergency c-section after 30+ hours of labour. I was right at the end too… 10cm dilated & actually pushing bub out…. when a doctor came in & had a look at how things were going when he noticed “cord prolapse” which is where the umbilical cord is coming out before bub is (dangerous!!).
I was in labour such a long time that by then I just wanted my baby in my arms so when they were whisking me off to theatre I didn’t mind too much. (High on all the drugs too).
But it’s a few years later that having a c-section is affecting me. We have decided we would like to have quite a few kids. It can be dangerous having many c-sections, one after another so I am anxious about any future births I have. I am really crossing my fingers and hoping any future pregnancies I have will all hopefully result in a VBAC.
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I had a successful VBAC – you can do it!! My advice is to get a really supportive team around you (my ob and doula were very confident we were going to avoid a repeat csection) and you’ll be laughing all the way to the gas
good luck. x
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I totally disagree. I think elective cesarean for non-medical reasons should not be an option. it’s available privately because people are paying for the choice and I think therein lies the problem. Private practice should not allow elective non-medical cesarean; the reason it is not offered publicly without medical necessity is that it is major abdominal surgery and if there is no reason for it, why have it? Sure there are many complications with normal childbirth but perhaps our focus should be taken away from elective cesarean and put on to more extensive birth preparation provided by hospitals. I am 7 months pregnant with twins and have done a lot of research on birthing and preparation. I think it is certainly an emotional issue and that half of the preparation is managing comfort, fear, anxiety etc. I may be wrong but the people who have addressed these issues before giving birth have fewer complications during labour. If we had guidance and assistance with this sort of thing through the hospital, natural birth might have fewer complications and then certainly a more viable option for everyone. I am fighting for a natural birth over a cesarean (which is very common for twin pregnancies and is, in fact, elective in the public system) because I believe it to be healthier for the babies and mother overall. Just my opinion though.
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I had an “elective” after my first child was born via emergency c-section after 13 hours of 1 minute long 3 minute apart contractions and I dont think I took the easy way out more like the I dont want to go through all that for nothing option. I must say my first birth was not how I expected I was left alone for long periods of time and not encouraged at all by the midwives and feel extremly lucky to have my little boy and although I had moved before the birth of my second was not willing to go through all that agian. The worst thing was I felt bullied by my ob to attempt a “normal” birth so much that I had to take my rather threatening looking partner with me to all appointments so that I wasnt bullied into changing my mind, I didnt decide this on a whim but after lots of talking with my partner. It really gets on my nerves when other mothers say I took the easy way out cause I didnt. You cant drive for at least a month you always have a scar and cant lift anything other than ur newborn for weeks., Sometimes I wish that other mothers were more accepting of my choice
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Great article
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Go Leslie. Say it like it is.
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Have read most of the comments below, and mine is more focussed on the choice for women and the negativity towards “elective” c-section from mid-wives and public hospitals.
Firstly. I think there is another term for c-sections beyond “elective” or “emergency”. In my case, it was “necessary”. I made the informed choice to try and reduce the risks of complications for my son and myself.
With my first child, he was overdue, lying transverse, not engaged and my private hospital dr clearly outlined the high risk of cord prolapse if I was to go into labour. The likelihood of him engaging was less than 3% beyond 40 weeks.
I chose a c-section and had to answer the mid-wives questions post-birth as to “why” I had an elective c-section (which was put on my medical records). I was made to feel that I had to defend my situation. BTW, I was very upset at the time that I was not able to try for a natural birth, but I chose what was best for my son and read books prior to the c-section to make sure I was prepared mentally for the operation. Yes, I received info from my dr, but my pre-delivery lessons conducted by mid-wives did not even touch on c-sections. 2-days and not being given all of the info. I needed as a mother-to-be.
Now pregnant with #2, I have been tossing p whether to go private or public and landed at private. I spoke to the public hospital and friends that have gone through that system. Yes, there are some great stories, but some where they felt absolute pressure for VBAC and it ended up terribly and in emergency c-section anyway. I want to ensure that I do have the ability to make an informed say in what happens to me and my new baby.
At the end of the day, vaginal, c-section, VBAC whatever – everyone should have the right to choose what is best for them and their baby, but everyone also needs to get ALL of the information to help then make an informed shared decision with their dr or medical carer.
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Of course getting a healthy Mother and baby out at the end is all that matters.
Something however that is never mentioned (and lots of my friends had complications and caesareans and hence I never mention it- its seems to be just luck who gets what vagina/babies/hormones etc) but the two natural drugfree childbirths I had are the two most exhilerating, “powerful” and amazing experiences of my life. I refer only to the birth (not the labour!). I assume its like the high others get from climbing mountains etc. It gave me such a burst of confidence in my body and energy that I think I had a running start into motherhood and breastfeeding.
My third I had an epidural and didn’t feel the same physical rush (all complicated by a diagnosed congenital deformity) but of course the excitement,relief and love was all still there.
I just want “full disclosure” to those with a choice about childbirth methods to include physical and emotional issues- amazingly fantastic in my case and traumatic in other peoples experience.
Most caesareans are emergencies but if I had to ………..I would choose (everytime) my dire haemorrhoids, the effect of past stitches and pelvice floor issues everyday of my life rather than miss out on the fantastic emotional experience of my vaginal births (and I had NO idea until it happened to me- why had no one told me?)
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I believe a woman has a right to choose no matter what the reason. She shouldn’t have to justify herself to anyone. Her body= her decision. Surely the most important thing is delivering a healthy baby safely?
I don’t think anyone should judge anyones birth choice.
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I believe women should have the right to choose. However, what I find disappointing is where that decision is influenced too heavily by a person in trust (usually the obstetrician) who seems to have a lack of faith in the ability of the woman to birth her baby safely and successfully. From the many conversations I have had as a mother, with other mothers, I have heard so many stories of where a C-section has been scheduled too early, because “the baby hasn’t turned yet”, or “the baby hasn’t dropped yet”, or the placenta has been observed to be obstructing very early in the pregnancy. Many mothers I have spoken to had started out with a desire to birth their baby naturally, but an over-cautious obstetrician, with a desire to have everything “scheduled” (for their own convenience), has convinced the mother a C-section will be necessary down the track, and so it is booked in, and the birth process handed over. It is my hope that women will hand less of their innate knowledge and power and faith in their bodies over to the medical profession (many of whom are men and do not know what it is like to carry a baby and give birth), seek to further inform themselves of the ability of their body to do the job, and then make alternate plans if necessary.
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Yes, but these c-sections are precautionary. Doctors only every do what is best for the patient and the child well being. They don’t schedule c sections unnecessarily!
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I’m currently on my obstetrics and gynecology rotation in hospital as a medical student and feel that often people can forget that the ‘over-cautious’ obstetrician knows 150 different ways that babies can die, suffocate and haemorrhage, that he or she probably doesn’t want to outline in detail to the patient, but is ‘steering’ them a direction that based on evidence from previous studies has shown to decrease that foetuses risk of death.
For example, an obstructing placenta (placenta previa) is not just a bit weird or different –> it’s absolutely dangerous and not at all conducive to a vaginal birth. When the cervix dilates, if the placenta is lying over it, it will get stretched, the vessels (which are the foetus’ only blood supply) rupture leaving the foetus without blood, leading to death of the foetus. No doctor is going to allow a vaginal birth in that situation because the patient wishes it. It would be unethical.
Similarly, breech babies where “baby hasn’t turned yet” have a much higher incidence of death. Therefore, caesareans are indicated.
Obstetricians train for over a decade to be in a position to “influence” women as you suggest. What you may perceive as a “lack of faith in the ability to birth (children) safely and successfully”, is actually safe clinical practice based on years of experience and balancing risks.
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think the question should be “should every woman have the right to informed care regarding the very best health options for herself and her baby, physically and mentally”. This would answer the question as yes, and bring the caesarean rate down to the appropriate level recommended by the World Health Organisation of 10%, in order to deal with birth emergencies only. It is important for women to understand that a lot of money is made from birth interventions, and that it is not in hospital’s best financial interest as businesses to promote natural health care (and don’t be mistaken, they are successful Medicare funded businesses – does your OB drive a Hyundai or a Bentley?), so many of us are not getting this informed care and we should be angry at that. So yes, women should have the right to caesareans as life saving care, but we also have the right to the truth behind why this surgery is done so much more often than that.
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i had a cesearean against my will. but my son would not have survived if he hadn’t been taken out right then.
i still wish i could have done it naturally, even though i am a total wimp.
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It annoys me we are still arguing about this. The birth is such a SMALL part in what is a huge task ahead for many many years of our lives. I don’t ever hear my husband discussing caesar vs natural with his mates who are also Dad’s. Women always like to get on their moral high horses.
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Funnily enough, my husband does regularly get into the caesar vs natural debate with his mates. He is pro elective caesar as we both believe its the best way to get a healthy, happy baby & mum.
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I would never opt for a C-section unless it was absolutely necessary. However, I believe women should have the right to choose. Some are just simply too scared to push and shoudn’t be judged for their choice not to push.
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I’m really amazed at the comments along the lines of “it’s all about your baby”. Of course it’s about your baby. But it’s about you too. Your body doesn’t suddenly become disposable when you fall pregnant and deliver a child. Quite the opposite – you need to be in good physical and emotional shape to look after your child. For the rest of *your* life.
A caesar is no walk in the park. But neither are major tearing, vaginal prolapse, incontinence and sexual dysfunction, all of which — whether or not any individual birth is a wonderful, empowering experience — are extremely common side effects of vaginal birth. And leave you in pretty poor shape to look after yourself and your family if you’re unlucky enough to suffer them. Similarly medical intervention during vaginal birth can be, and frequently is, absolutely brutal with serious long term consequences for the health and wellbeing of mother and baby. If a mum-to-be is prepared to risk those effects, more power to her. I would never judge her choice and I absolutely recognise that vaginal delivery can be the amazing, empowering experience so many women hope for. And if I were feeling judgy, I’d zip it. Because another woman’s choice of delivery method is not my business.
I don’t appreciate narrow-minded, ill-informed and extremely vocal judgement of *my* choice. Which has been to weigh up those risks against the also very real, quite scary, risks involved in a caesar, and to decide that, for me, it’s the best option. I wish some mums would accord me the respect I show their choices and… just keep quiet. I’m not saying what I’m doing is best for everyone – and I never, ever bring it up unless asked directly – but I’ve encountered some shocking lectures from people who seem to have no problem telling me how I should give birth. Not impressed.
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But this topic was posed as a question “The right to a caesarian, should every woman have it?” Surely this invited people’s opinions?
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Love your perspective and totally agree.
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I completely agree! I’m a medical law lawyer, and the kind of birth complications I see every day are utterly horrific! Some women are prepared to face the risks of vaginal birth and some aren’t – so long as the woman understand the risks and benefits of both procedures, it should be her choice. The aim is to have a successful birth resulting in a healthy mother and child – it shouldn’t matter how it’s done.
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I’d like to know what classes as emergency caesarian and elective. I was in labour for 10 hours with my first daughter and ended up having to have a caesarian at 10pm that night because I wasn’t dilating. I have an ‘elective’ caesar for my second daughter because I was 1cm away from being placenta preavia – my OB said it was safer to have the caesar. How were either of the ‘elective’? I have to deal with never having the birthing experience and then also have it said I ‘elected’ to do so?… don’t think so.
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It’s complicated isn’t it. I hate the term ‘emergency’ ceaser. Sometimes it’s not exactly an emergency either, but not elective, eg labour not progressing so decision is made to have c-section, so it’s not exactly an ‘emergency’ but you didn’t elect to have one before labour…
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just in case you wanted to know
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section
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I’d like to put another side to the story out there – c-sections aren’t necessarily all that bad. I had a c-section two weeks ago that was classed as “emergency” thanks to my son’s heart rate dropping even though I was only in the early stages of labour. Apart from the obvious worries, I found it to be a great experience. My Obstetrician did a marvellous job on the operation, I was up and walking around four days later, and now only have the tiniest little scar that fits neatly along my bikini line. I can drive and push the pram and actually feel pretty lucky to have delivered him this way as opposed to some of my friends who have had horrific vaginal births that take months to recover from physically and mentally.
I’m not saying everyone finds a c-section this easy, but I just wanted to let anyone who’s considering one know that it doesn’t necessarily have to be as painful and hard to recover from as most people say it is.
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just be careful with the driving & your insurance as you may not be covered until your 6wk check up. Worth checking just in case.
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I’m 53 and still living with the consequences of a well managed vaginal delivery of a large baby 22 years ago. I wet myself multiple times each day, many little leaks and the occassional unpredictable torrent. I also have some pretty significant problems with defaecation. I had none of these symptoms until very shortly after the delivery and they have not improved despite surgery. There’s no point in doing pelvic floor exercises when the pelvic floor was torn and the nerve supply isn’t what it used to be. Nevertheless, this was considered a ‘successful’ delivery. I’m tired of having this all dismissed as trivial. The women with sexual dysfunction after vaginal delivery are also not taken very seriously. I’ve treated several women with quite severe post traumatic stress disorder after nasty vaginal deliveries.
I can’t see myself ever having ‘chosen’ to have a caesar but vaginal delivery isn’t all beer and skittles! Just because it’s natural doesn’t make it perfect. In presurgical days, MANY women died in obstructed labour, not just post partum infection or haemorrhage. We seem to have lost touch with the fact that birth can be inherantly hazardous for both Mum and Bub. Even if we accept the WHO recommendation of a 15% caesarean rate, That’s 15% of labours that would likely result in the death or serious damage to mother or child or both! Those are crappy odds.
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Thanks for that brave post Cassie. You are far from alone.
I have a similar story – similar injuries and the same issues each day – for the rest of my life. There seems to be an underlying belief in much of the discourse around the pros and cons of ‘natural’ deliveries, that a woman’s body is a bit expendable. Im happy for those women who got through vaginal deliveries with no injury and for whom it was a positive experience – but the numbers of women who, as a result of ‘successful’ vaginal deliveries spend the rest of their lives leaking urine, and who have sexual disfunction and difficulties passing stools, is significant. These issues were never mentioned at my pre-birth classes, and even such things as pain releif during birth, were poo pooed. It was made clear by the midwives who were educating us, that there was a ‘right way’ and a wrong way’ to give birth, and ‘real women’ do it with the absolute minimum of technological assistance.
This sort of thing actively works against any notion of choice.
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Thank you ladies for sharing your stories about vaginal births that have caused you enduring physical problems. It must be very hard to deal with on a day to day basis.
There can be alot of pressure for women to give birth vaginally & I remember my own mother making the comment ‘well done’ to a friend of mine who birthed a large baby vaginally. This was after my emergency ceasar so was very insensitive but there does seem to be a perception among alot of women (particularly some from the older generations) that you took the easy way out by having a ceasar.
Childbirth is such an individual experience & there are so many variables between births. This post has actually made me feel quite pleased my family is complete & I do not have to think about birth options/pain management etc etc again as it can be quite scary and you always worry whether you are making the right decision & how it will all pan out.
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Thank you for being so honest about this, what you say is so important and people seem to forget this happens in their dogged belief that ‘women were made to give birth’. Well, some are and some aren’t. I’m in the latter category and if it wasdn’t for a c-section, me and my daughter would be dead. I would be interested to know how the statistics of infant/mother mortality and serious post birth complications have faired as the c-section rate has gone up. The moralists seem to forget this.
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If it wasn’t for a ceasar, my daughter would have died as well. I’m hate being asked why I had a caesar and having to then explain the incredibly frightening experience that was her birth. I sometimes feel like I have to justify why I had one, but at the end of the day its no-ones business. My daughter is healthy and happy and if I had stuck to my natural birth plan, well she wouldn’t be here.
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I believe, like many other aspects of the lives of women, we should have the right to choose however I like to think medical professionals would only advocate an elective c-section for valid medical reasons as there are numerous benefits for both mother & baby of labouring (even if a c-section results later).
The hormones produced during labour have a special role to play during the baby’s birth which is one of the main reasons I chose to labour with my 2nd & 3rd babies despite having a long labour then emergency c-section with my first. My 2nd was a VBAC birth (vaginal birth after caesarian & my 3rd another emergency c-section).
There is still a certain degree of discouragement/resistance for women wanting to attempt a VBAC birth among some medical professionals which is disappointing in my opinion. Another post for that topic though!!
Have to say this topic strikes me as being as much as a hotbed as stay-at-home mothers vs mothers who go to work!!
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good on you for trying for a vbac, and getting it. not an easy thing to achieve from what i have heard
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Finally! Have been looking forward to reading this, and especially appropriate today as I read a twin mum’s birth story, she had first twin vaginally, second twin by section. Double ouch.
Anyway, good on Leslie for looking at this subject. It’s surprising that there isn’t good evidence on the risks and benefits of elective sections since they are done so often. Can’t be far away, surely.
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You know when I had my wisdom teeth out I was given the choice of having them out under local anesthetic at my local dentists office or going to hospital for surgery and have them out under general anesthetic. Nobody carried on about my choice there, why is it any different here?
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Difference is impacted wisdom teeth are pathological, the majority of births aren’t.
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True Faybian, but I think the choice to be under general anaesthetic (and not be aware of the procedure) rather than a local anaesthetic, makes this a reasonable comparison.
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Not really. Do you have private health insurance? Because I know a lot of people without would not have that choice and would be on waiting lists for non-emergant surgery.
Isn’t the point of this should you ahve a right to c/s? Private health insurance patients can choose their ob and if they want a c/s they should pick one who is comfortable performing non-medically indicated c/s. Public patients don’t get this choice. This seems to be a lot of posts of people sharing birth stories and arguing the same point on an article where there are many different issues surounding rights.
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I still can’t believe the amount of women that think birth is about them. It really isn’t, it is about having a healthy child. The child has the right to be born in the safest way possible and if that is vaginal or c section then so be it. I would suggest that if you can’t be bothered pushing a child out parenting probably isn’t your thing. Also, the idea that birth will go to your plan is probably not going to happen!! Another lesson for new parents.
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This is ridiculous. Sorry for being blunt but I’m shocked that you would suggest that the feelings, fears and possible phobias of an adult woman should be ignored for the benefit of a child THEY are creating. Can’t they decide for themselves in what way they will have their child, if they will have it, or what they feel comfortable giving up for their child and what they do not? the child is THEIR responsibility, their idea, growing in their body. Some wwomen still have the feeling of an identity while pregnant, sorry to break it to you. Not everything revolves around the unborn child, and the first person who should be making decisions about the way they will give birth is the person giving birth, as long as it is medically safe.If it is not medically safe, doctors will save the mother, not the child. That’s just the way things are: pregnant women are not incubators.
That being said I had no idea one could “choose” to have a C section, it seems so terrifying, I would have a heart attack if someone had told me I would have to go through it when i was pregnant. If these women feel the same way about natural birth that I felt about C sections, I really think they should do what they want and leave people the hell alone…
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I think your comments are completely irrational. I have had two c-sections, one emergency, on elective. I can tell you on both occassions my first thoughts were for the safety and wellbeing of my babies, and many years later, it still is.
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I still can’t believe that people still maintain that to become a mother women need to become martyrs and saints and do everything for their kids and forget about themselves.
I’m due any day now with my first, and I’ll be doing whatever is best for me, because having a non-freaked out, distressed Mum and both of us being healthy and well is a better start for the pair of us and more important than anyone ELSE’s ideology about birth.
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All the best for this very special time Kris. We’ll look forward to hearing your happy news
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Thanks, EC! Met with doula today to go over everything, still feeling pretty good. The stretched ligaments down my front low aren’t the most fun though!
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I adore my children and they come first and foremost in my life – but being a good parent shouldnt have had to have been at the expense of my body. Giving birth to them ‘naturally’ left me with incontinence as well as a number of other related injuries that I will have for the rest of my life. My deliveries were considered normal and successful, my babies came through it well, and my injuries are not uncommon.
And to be frank, I could be a better parent without the injuries – I could jump on the trampoline with my son, or go for a little run with my daughter, without wetting myself. That would be nice.
There should be choice, and for choice to happen, there needs to be openness about these sorts of things.
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Did you mean to say ‘all’ about them? It’s about both mum and baby of course. And partners too, if they’re involved. How important to you is it that these healthy babies have healthy (mentally and physically) mums who are able to care for them?
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I had a horrendous experience on the so called National Health Service in the UK where I was “managed” in an induced labour for close to 30 hours just so that they could keep the c-section rate down. (I was told that by the consultant that she had to keep the c-section rate below 20% and I would go at least 24 hours before one).
My emergency caesar was a nightmare, my son’s heart rate decreased so quickly in theatre that there was sheer panic behind that screen. They had another 2 women behind me, so closed really quickly and as a result I scarred so badly that with my second pregnancy there was significant concern that I would not make it to full term as the showed signs of coming away.
My second delivery was back downunder, and owing to the above I was given no choice but a c-section. Thank goodness I listened to the obstetrician did as I haemorraged with every incision.
For me, I am so grateful to c-sections as my chldren and I most likely would have died.
I’d never judge anyone’s bith choices. Isn’t the healthy baby what we are all after irrespective of how we get there?
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I’m living in the UK at moment and TERRIFIED that I will have to give birth here. The birth stories I hear about the UK are so frightening. I’m appalled there are so few choices here. They defend and are so protective of the NHS that they cant see how dreadful the service actually is!
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I had a baby in England through the NHS last year and received incredible care. Wonderful doctors, a lovely lovely midwife, professional care. One thing i heard that rang true was that the NHS doesn’t do everything well…but delivering babies is one thing they tend to do well. I hope your experience is as positive as mine was.
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I had all my antenatal care in the UK and found it really wonderful. I came home to have my baby though so can’t comment on the birth, but I found it good too. I hope yours is!
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me too. I had better prenatal care in the uk than here through the public system, but I also birthed here too so can’t compare the two in that respect.
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I’ve done both and am about to have a third here (all c-sections by the way). Don’t believe all the horror stories – people love to freak you out. No, it doesn’t come with the luxuries of the private system in Australia – no hotels, rarely an ob in sight and no private rooms. But, if you’re living in London or near a big city with a good maternity wing or hospital, you’re going to get as good medical care as you could possibly ask for. And as for choice, I actually think you probably get as good a choice as Australia, if not better – there are a lot of birthing centres for those who want to go natural, or amazing support for those who want to have home births and of course hospital births. Put it this way – it’s pretty basic when everything is normal, but if something goes wrong you’re in good hands. As I say though, I know this can be a little different if you are in the ‘country’, where care can be less consistent. Although that probably goes for Australia too? I’m not defending the NHS to the death, god knows I can whinge about it like the best of them, but I’ve been pretty happy with the maternity care I have had. I was out of hospital in 48 hours (yes, after my c-section!), but the post natal home care was pretty amazing – a midwife came to my home every two days for a few weeks, and a breastfeeding counsellor came very day to help me as I had so much trouble with feeding the first time around. A surgeon friend of mine said that I needed to understand that in the UK, pregnancy and childbirth was primarily seen as a normal part of life, not a medical problem to be dealt with, which kind of helped explain to me the approach that lots of the medical community takes toward it….
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Had a baby in the UK too and thought the care was brilliant. Part luck no doubt, and the hospital I gave birth in looks pretty run down, but the midwives and obstetricians were bloody good at their jobs.
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I had my second child in a private hospital, and I told my doctor from my first appointment “i’m having a caeser”….didn’t happen, he said there was no reason for it therefore I would be having a “normal” birth if everything went to plan. Which thankfully everything did and I had my daughter naturally. So I can’t understand how 41% of women can go into a private hospital and order a c-section and just get it???
But in saying all that though, many births of friends and family children have been caesers for important medical reasons, and some should have been.
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41% of women in private hospital don’t walk in an order a c-section. I don’t know any private ob who would just give a c-section because someone wanted one – it’s extra work for them for one thing!
These 41% of c-sections in private hospitals are due to a number of things: low placenta issues, pre-eclampsia, etc, elective c-sections for 2nd and onwards births of women who endured an emergency c-section first time around and where a VBAC isn’t deemed recommended (my current situation), emergency c-sections – life threatening ones and ones which are given a little more easily in private hospitals under the “failure to progress” clause (in private hospital they’re less likely to leave women in labour for long periods of time)….and women who had a really difficult birth first time around in a PUBLIC hospital with a lot of tearing, infection etc, then move across to a private ob, where they discuss the previous birth and decide it is in the best interests of the long term physical and mental health of the mother to have a c-section.
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I know of a few people who have had Caesars for no real reason, just depends on the dr
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I’d be interested to know all the sides to that story as I think theres more to it than just going in and asking for a c-section.
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The ones I knew of, one was a dr and wanted to know when she would have it and also didn’t want to go through labour, the other was a nurse and her advance maternal age was her excuse. She told me she didn’t want to do labour either. They’re just 2 examples.
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Another big reasons for having a C-section is herpes, probably not something that people go around announcing though.
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I haven’t read any of the comments yet so I may just be echoing other people here but I think every woman should have the right to a caesarean SO LONG AS they have been made aware of all the risks and also have some knowledge of how vaginal birth works. Maybe a booklet of some kind that lists all the facts. Not just something that lists all the potential complications of a caesarean but something that shows the different statistical outcomes of elective caesareans vs. vaginal deliveries. Also I think there should be professional counselling offered to women who are considering choosing a caesarean because they are afraid of giving birth vaginally, that is women choosing a caesarean for psychological reasons rather than because of any physical issues. I think elective caesareans should be a last resort in these cases not a first resort.
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Everyone has the right to an opinion and these posts sure seem to attract a helluva lot of them!
But what irks me is the disproportionate number of “anonymous” posters.
If your opinion is so worthy of consideration, why not have the guts (or balls) to put your name behind it?
(obviously I am not including people who post anonymously for purely privacy issues)
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Would you like an address and phone number too? Making up some random name isn’t really any different to just using anonymous is it? I still have no idea who you are…
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I was just thinking the same thing Random!
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I use my real name and post regularly on varied subjects under my real name so in a way you can get an idea of “who I am”.
I was merely pointing out that the more contentious the issue, the more the anonymous posters. I did go on to say that I was not including people who chose to go anonymous for privacy reasons.
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I don’t know if it has been touched apon already, (600+ comments to read through) but want to know about the women who have been advised (probably wrongly in this case) to have a c-section by their doctor, for example, they *think* the baby will be too big etc. If a dr said to have one, it would be pretty hard to say no, right? These women would then be classed as ‘elective’. Has anyone else come across this scenario, or been pressured into one by their Dr?
Another approach to having ‘birth centres’ would be to provide better support for home births like they do in the UK. The question could then be “home or hospital?” at your first Anti-natal visit = Bliss.
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I had a c-section with my first due to him being breach. I was advised to have another with my second due to size – however he was smaller than my first. I was pretty disappointed that I didn’t at least give vaginal birth a go, but i also have 2 healthy children, so I can’t complain too much.
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I was advised by my Ob to have a c-section due to my bub being big and not fully engaged at 38 weeks.
Being a first time mum, I was terrified but agreed, she’s the expert, right? I had planned for a vaginal birth and it had taken me nearly 9 months to feel “ready” for that, so finding out I was having a c-section with one days notice threw me a lot!
It all went according to plan, I was super calm on the day, and the staff were amazing and I was just so happy to finally meet my daughter, but I was still a little upset I didn’t get to have the birth I wanted. Especially went my dr ended up going on holidays 4 days after my c-section… coincidence? I doubt it. So that dissapointed me, thinking that my dr had booked me in for her own agenda… but this may not be the case.
Like I said, mine went well and the recovery was actually a lot easier than I expected! But I’m still a little upset about it and will be trying for a VBAC with #2
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I have had four wonderful boys by vaginal birth in the RPA birth centre. I had fabulous care by the midwives with the added bonus of knowing that if anything went wrong additional care was available. I read widely (very little stuff on the internet since 19 years ago it was not the monster that it is today) and went to well regarded antenatal classes. The one thing from those classes that stuck in my mind was, that at the end of the day all that mattered was a healthy baby and that one should be prepared for things to not go according to plan. If a ceasarean was the best thing for that result then that was needed and that as a mother preparing to give birth I should be aware of that possibility.
The birth centre was right for me – I have a morbid fear of hospitals resulting from several major operations as a child, so a homey relaxed environment was important for me – fear of labor was drowned out by fear of an operation and even an epidural. It would not be right for everyone but it was right for me and in the end this is what counts – producing a healthy baby with minimum stress to our bodies and our psyches.
I do think we need to be more gentle with ourselves and our choices – the majority of women have thought hard about their birth choices – birth is not one size fits all and each of us will do things slightly differently. Babies are precious and birth is a momentous occasion in all our lives, changing us in ways we cannot fathom at the time. There is no one way of giving birth, just as there is no one way of parenting.
In our society we have been given the ability to choose, hopefully women will choose well and that in the end, a healthy baby is born. Sometimes that choice is taken away – and we then have to deal as best we can with circumstances and that can be extremely difficult. With friends who are expecting babies all I do is repeat the advice I received – at the end of the day a healthy baby and a healthy mother is all that matters.
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I find this topic (and the responses) both interesting and very sad. It is such a different experience for every person who has given birth and in some cases I think hard to relate.
Twelve years later and I still shudder when I think about it. I had private health insurance a ‘prestigious’ obstetrician, good hospital – the works. What I didn’t have was the option to have a caesarean, it didn’t occur to me and my doctor didn’t suggest it. Oh how I wish she did.
The pregnancy was complicated, it seemed that I was put into hospital every time I saw the Doctor. I had experienced multiple miscarriages prior to this pregnancy (turns out it was due to coeliac disease – thought mentioning this might help someone who is in the same situation), so my mindset was not the best. My marriage was ho hum (it ended when my son was two) and no one I knew had babies. On top of this I had a long history of depression and a pretty dodgy spine.
The Doctor constantly advised me that I was ‘at great risk of post natal depression’ (yup, she got that right) but never once considered that perhaps my physical problems should be factored into the birth. Sure enough, a year after my son was born I had to have major back surgery to avoid permanent paralysis and incontinence which meant that playtime was limited to lots of story telling (he was an early reader, so perhaps not such a bad thing). I had to involve him in my health issues from a very early age and I don’t think that is fair to a young child.
The birth itself was a nightmare. The epidural only worked on one side – surreal experience, my husband was bored – there’s only so many times you can suck up the gas (I hated it, but he loved it) so he went off to nap and came back a few hours later with a hamburger and a magnum!! The obstetrician went off and had her hair dyed and her chin waxed. Yup, it took awhile. Won’t bore everyone with all the details – kind of a keystone cops thing.
Somewhere in the process I spiked a fever and an antibiotic was administered through the IV thingy. I also experienced a significant tear from the forceps and the wound was infected for three months. As a result, my son was allergic to my breastmilk and is still allergic to three different types of anti biotics. He spent several hours in the neo nate ward straight after the birth.
People have worse stories, I realise this. My point is that had someone ‘given me permission’ to consider a Caesarean, I would have taken it and our lives could have been a little easier.
My son is the light of my life, he and I are incredibly bonded. I absolutely do not share this story with him, nor have I ever thought of him negatively because of it. He is worth everything and more, I just feel sad about the ‘more’ that could have been.
I have re partnered and have two step children and I get the sense that I probably would have been good at being a mother to a large family (I keep adding to the menagerie instead) but after my first birth was advised against subsequent pregnancies as my spine is a mess.
I am not anti or pro anything – well I am anti the whole ‘you should…’ thing, I just would have liked the option of having a Caesarean and I wouldn’t have given a toss what anyone thought about it.
Sorry for rambling on.
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Thanks for sharing your story. It’s an important reminder to women like me know didn’t get to labor (elective caesarean due medical reason) that not everyone has a great vaginal delivery and like the above article says caesarean’s can/do have a place.
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Thank you for saying that. I nearly didn’t press ‘submit’ but decided to go for it as seeing the words written there helped me realise that there was residue and it needed to go – and I also thought that maybe someone else is/was in a similar boat.
It isn’t something I talk about (at all), but as I reach the end of my fertile years (gulp)and watch my ‘baby’ grow up, I guess it has been on my mind.
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Is your husband Dutch? mine is
he told me he was bored as I was nearly throwing up from pain. I could have killed him
*virtually holding your hand*
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LOL. No, my ‘husband’ is now someone else’s fortunately
He was very annoyed about the lack of television – bless him.
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The first thing my husband asked when we toured the hospital was whether they had foxtel as I was due around the same time as some cricket tests were on. Fortunately when push came to shove so to speak he forgot all about the cricket.
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Mine said “Mish, I know this is really hard for you, but its just as hard for me” when I was in the middle of a painful contraction. And then he was surprised when I kicked him out of the room!!
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Have done it both ways. Three vaginal deliveries and one emergency caesarean after 9 hours of labour.
Wouldn’t choose a caesar in a pink fit.
However, other women aren’t me. My choices aren’t theirs and vice versa.
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To question someone’s “right” to have an unnecessary medical procedure when the state substantially subsidises this “choice” is justified, also the “choice” not to breastfeed also has consequences for the community in raised health costs for these children.
Why anyone would choose to have major operation with all the risks and consequences and choose not give your child the best start in life is completely beyond me! If this is judgmental then so be it.
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Yes Maggie, it’s judgmental. It’s inappropriate for anyone to judge another women’s choice to have a Ceasarean or to bottle feed. Are you saying that breastfed babies don’t get sick? Or that if we’ve made these choices we are somehow inferior to those who have not? How about instead of judging individual’s situations (of which we know nothing about), we empathize and perhaps even learn something.
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Oh but don’t you know Sarah, giving birth vaginally and breastfeeding your babies is the absolute best thing you can do for you children. So for every single time you achieve this, you get a high horse to sit on. But remember, if you ‘fall off’ by undergoing a c-section or bottle feeding (irrespective of what your reasons are) you are stripped off your high horse privileges and will be banned from this exclusive club for life.
Now once you have been given a high horse to sit on, you can choose to do two things – you can say “well, I earned this and I like the height at which I will be sitting to judge all inferior women from so I shall do so” OR you can say “well, I gave birth vaginally and I breastfed and as difficult as they may or may not have been, I’m proud that I have done what I believe is the best for my child/ren and that’s that. So I’ll give the high horse a miss”.
Now for those who do sit on their high horse and judge, there are two types IMO – those who explicitly state their judgement (eg. I gave birth vaginally (and without drugs!!) and you didn’t so it makes me a better mother than you) – this Explicit Judgement type is easier to deal with as you can dismiss their statements as complete and utter rubbish and walk away (more difficult if you are married or somehow related to them). The more difficult type is the “Subtle Judger” – those who DO think that they are more superior but ‘try to hide’ their judgement behind a ‘look’ or a ‘tone of voice’ or say things like “I made this big huge sacrifice to give what’s best for my babies and I’m no special person so if I can go through this BIG HUGE SACRIFICE, I don’t see why you can’t and so if you can’t it means you are just a bad mother who refuses to makes these BIG HUGE SACRIFICES for your children. And no I don’t want to be feted as a hero for my BIG HUGE SACRIFICES but I will keep going on about this until you understand what BIG HUGE SACRIFICES I made for my kids and that you didn’t do the same, ergo I’m a better mother”. So once you understand the true meaning behind their ‘subtle judgements’ (and it may take a few interactions) WALK AWAY QUICKLY!
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I agree Sarah. I had a vaginal delivery AND I breastfed until he was 2 and still he was so sick for the first two years. He caught everything going AND got the worst form of it (pneumonia from a chest infection, viral meningitis from hand, foot and mouth etc.). On the other hand I have friends who elected to have c-sections and bottle feed and their kids are doing better than mine. Every child is different based on many factors.
The vaginal delivery was because I was in a public hospital and didn’t have a choice. The breastfeeding is because my partner is a second year high school teacher and therefore we couldn’t afford formula even if we had wanted to. My son is lactose intolerant and can’t drink cow’s milk, thus the long breastfeeding. No high horse here, necessity all the way hornet’s nest!
I’m a high school teacher in a low socioeconomic area and let me assure you there are many, many factors other than this that contribute to the health and wellbeing of children. I would never judge my friends or strangers for their choices and preferences.
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Excellent responses Sarah and HornetsNest, thankyou.
Maggie I don’t believe you have a good understanding of how the public and private systems work in Australia. Also a vaginal birth is not a ‘choice to give your child the best start in life.’ If you haven’t had time to read the comments fair enough but I’d be shocked if you didn’t know someone who had a vaginal birth with consequences for their baby’s health (scarring, neo-natal ward stay etc), that’s if you are indeed female.
To be absolutely clear there are NO elective caesareans in public hospitals unless a private patient is going in. The public hospitals are funded by taxpayers, and federal or state money, private hospitals generally are not. In a private hospital the MAJORITY of the costs are shouldered by both the patient and private health insurance, which is only funded to a limited extent by you or the average taxpayer.
Further to that, can I suggest if you have such strong feelings about contributing your tax dollars towards a procedure that saves women, their mental and physical health and their babies (which god forbid you should need one day) you go to a financial planner and find out how to reduce your tax.
Do all of this before you bother responding and you’ll have a leg to stand on.
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“To be absolutely clear there are NO elective caesareans in public hospitals unless a private patient is going in.”
You are wrong – I had a 10lb7oz baby and after 19 hours had an emergency c-section (dilated to 8cm only, poor progress in labour etc) and will have scans at 34-36 weeks – if they show this baby is in the same size range I have been told I can book in for an “elective caesarean”. I am going through the public system.
Elective does not equal – what the mum chooses. Elective caesarean=planned caesarean.
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The specific example I mean is a mum making this choice for lifestyle reasons, with no medical indication. You have two medical reasons why this procedure is potentially life saving for you. Many people (not yourself) seem to be concerned about paying for someone else’s lifestyle choice, all I was pointing out is that they aren’t. The term ‘elective caesarean’ is bandied around a lot with different meanings intended, but I only meant one thing. Thanks for the discussion, good luck with your delivery!
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Have worked in the health system so have a excellent understanding of how it works including the willingness of many obstetricians to perform caesareans on private patients. I also know women who have elected to have these procedures in the absence of medical indications. And I don’t believe this, or breastfeeding is a matter of “choice” when the empirical evidence indicates that the health outcomes for babies are so vastly superior. I have not based any of this on my persoanl experience of childbearing, but on my observations when working in this area. And ye sI am indeed femal and have had three children . Disappointing that people have to resort to personal attacks – this indicates a level of guilt in my opinion.
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Maggie thats the beautiful thing about living in Australia, we have the choice, also the choice to ignore comments from windbags like you. I have on the occassion chosen to respond. I have no guilt for having c-sections, my kids are healthy happy wonderful human beings. It is also my choice to tell you to get back on your high horse and ride off back to the land of narrow mindedness.
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I think sharing birth stories is pointless and boring really – it’s like holiday photos – only interesting to the people who were there. If you haven’t had a baby other women’s stories will either make it sound like a walk in the park or they will give you some disgusting horror story, either way their experience won’t be your experience, their pain threshold isn’t your pain threshhold, their midwife isn’t your midwife etc etc. I’m not trying to negate people’s birth experiences, but I just don’t think it’s very helpful to share them. It only serves to increase anxiety and pressure about birth. I took my mother along to one of my ante natal classes and she was speechless after it – I don’t totally agree with her but she said that it was much easier 40 years ago when women didn’t know so much about birth and that we know too much these days and talk about it too much and it just makes mothers more anxious about labour.
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Before I had my children I would ask anyone who’d had a child about their birth story. I was keen to hear it all. Now, I still love to hear birth stories, but for a different reason. I just love the miracle of it all, and I love how birth stories are as different as the children that come from those births.
I agree that hearing someone’s story could either put you in a false sense of security ‘Oh NO, didn’t hurt at all’, or fear if the story was traumatic. That’s why I wanted to hear LOTS of stories though
Gotta do what works for us, listen, don’t listen, if it helps you prepare for your birth, or maybe relive it, then good stuff!
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I agree with MBK’s mum below. As a first time mum I really wanted to know what birth would be like and the only way to do that was to hear lots and lots of birth stories.
It is unfortunate that people sensationalise their birth stories which often turns them into horror stories. I wanted to hear them all – the “it was easy” ones all the way to “I tore from A to Z” to find out all the different ways to tackle this wholly unknowable situation.
But then, I also love looking at other people’s holiday photos
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I love hearing other peoples birth stories for the same reasons as ‘MBK’sMum’. Also I think sometimes women need to tell their birth stories, they find it therapeutic to talk about their experiences.
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I agree – I think perhaps I ‘overshared’ just after the birth as I was so blown away by it all, only to other mums though. Now I shut up a bit but I still love hearing other people’s birth stories. I would never scare someone who hadn’t done it though, or turn it into a horror story.
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Birth is important, hugely important. The birth of our children stays with us for a lifetime, it is a changing experience for women. The birth does matter!
On the topic of choice, women already have the choice to access non medically indicated Caesarian through private health. Why should Medicare fund unnecessary surgery? Because that is what non medically indicated Caesarian is. It’s like saying women should get government funded liposuction.
Why can’t more women access less medicalised forms of birth, such as in a midwife run birth centre or even homebirth? Research shows that for low risk pregnancies (which is most of us) homebirth is no less safe than birthing in a hospital, but this is not an option for many women who wish to access it. The few birth centres that exist in major capital cities are over subscribed and have waiting lists, a clear indication that this is an option women want, so why aren’t there more?
Finally, what has made women so afraid of their own bodies and their ability to birth their babies? Vaginal birth is not dangerous, and is safer for both mum and baby except in a medical emergency. Why are so many women shying away from normal birth, but are quite happy to undergo major abdominal surgery?
BTW it is the pregnancy that causes pelvic floor damage and incontinence, not the birth. The more pregnancies you have, the more likely you are to have problems. The idea that having a c section can prevent these things us a myth.
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I think the question on birthing centres would be a good question to ask our State Premier hopefuls, Mr O’Farrell and Miss Keneally. (Before Saturday, of course!!)
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Um not sure about that one. My best friends husband is a gyno and advised me that it is actually the birth that caused the issues. My mother had a prolapse at 40 due to giving birth naturally to rather large babies. I went c – section and at 41 no problems that my friends experienced when they had their babies. I can jump on a trampoline without having to worry.
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My post natal physio told me that it’s a myth that the birth is what damages your pelvic floor (as I smugly told her I would be fine as I’d had a caesarian), it is actually pregnancy.
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I don’t know about this – at my Mothers gp the other day those of us that had given birth to our babies vaginally had to go to the loo before going on the trampoline…. the girls who had had c sections didn’t have the same problem (and all of us had had 2 kids and all birthed both the same way)….
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ClaireC I tend to agree with you. I have had 4 babies (all over 4 kilos) and 4 cesareans. When I do group personal training my pelvic floor is the same as my friends who had natural child birth – we all run to the loo after the skipping rope exercise!
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‘Finally, what has made women so afraid of their own bodies and their ability to birth their babies? Vaginal birth is not dangerous, and is safer for both mum and baby except in a medical emergency. Why are so many women shying away from normal birth, but are quite happy to undergo major abdominal surgery?’
Heres’s the problem, Bob. You – wrongly – assume that women who choose caesars are afraid. We’re not. We just choose differently to you.
I wasn’t scared. I just had no desire to birth that way.
Please don’t perpetrate false stereotypes of women who get caesars. It makes you look silly and, quite frankly, it’s insulting to those of us who are smart, educated and happy with their CHOICE.
It may not be the way you choose to live, but my kids are healthy and happy, and so is their mum. Wow, whodathunkit?
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Where in that sentence did I say that all women who choose caesars are afraid? In fact, I didn’t even mention mums who have caesars. Plenty of women who have vaginal births feel a sense of fear or perhaps apprehension is a better term. As a student midwife and a mother myself I have come across this plenty of times. Please do not put words in my mouth and then tell me I look silly. I am not the one putting people down.
I have no problem with your CHOICE. I have no problem with birth choices in general, my point was that I do not think the government should subsidise that choice through medicare by offering non medically indicated caesarians in the public health system.
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Bon, elective caesareans aren’t available in public hospitals just so you know. The option is not on the table unless a patient with private health insurance is admitted to one because there is no private hospital. Or a woman could self-fund and go in private. In addition to that, you musn’t be aware but any woman undergoing an elective caesarean in a private hospital with private health insurance will have a portion of all of her doctor’s fees (anaesthetist, OB, assistant) covered by Medicare. If you disagree with that you can contact your local member of parliament.
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Sigh. Actually I do know that. In the article the author is implying that non medically indicated c section should be a choice for all women, private hospital or not and I was disagreeing with that. And yes I am aware that Medicare does reimburse some costs for private patients and no I do not have a problem with that.
Also, it’s Bon not Bob.
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There are lots of services that are subsidised by tax payers that people will disagree with. Thats life. But it doesnt mean they should be made unavailable.
Personally I would much prefer a pregnant woman who cant afford medical insurance be able to choose how she delivers her baby safely in a public hospital than have subsidised home births, which are proven to be far riskier to mother and baby if complications arise.
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Bon, can you then please clarify who this remark was aimed at:
‘Finally, what has made women so afraid of their own bodies and their ability to birth their babies? Vaginal birth is not dangerous, and is safer for both mum and baby except in a medical emergency. Why are so many women shying away from normal birth, but are quite happy to undergo major abdominal surgery?’
You say you didn’t even mention mums who have caesars. So what is the above paragraph in reference to and which major abdominal surgery are you referring to, if you are not referring to caesars as you claim.
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I think it is pointless going over this, but anyway just to clarify: There are three sentences there. The one in which I refer to abdominal surgery does not say anything about all Caesar mums being afraid, but I can see how when you read the whole thing together it comes across that way and so I apologize if you read that as some sort of generalization or judgement, that wasn’t my intention.
Just for the record, I am not anti Caesarian. If I needed one during any of my births I would have had one, no worries. From my perspective I am glad I didn’t need one. Saying that vaginal birth is safer for mums and babies is not a judgment on mums who had c sections, for whatever reasons. It’s just a statement of fact. It’s like when people say breastmilk ist the best food for babies – that
is not a judgement on mums who didn’t breastfeed, it’s just the simple truth. I say this as a mum who bottlefed her babies and has dealt with negativity and feelings if guilt over it. I can still acknowledge that even though I didn’t breastfeed, I know breastmilk would have been the ideal food for my little ones.
Anyway I have gone off track a bit. I don’t think I will respond in here anymore, TBH it has been stressing me out and I could do without the drama.
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i agree, i think it is such a shame that women don’t have the same access to home birth, or birth centre birth as they do in somewhere like the UK.
the NZ model is pretty good too, with access to a midwife from conception into the child first months of life. imagine how quickly PND would be diagnosed or assessed when someone who has been with you through your pregnancy and birth, is still there once the baby arrives.
we have a very strong and vocal medical body in australia, it is shame that they tend to monopolise the opinions on pregnancy and birth.
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It would be great to see something like the NZ model introduced here.
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I recently heard that in the The Netherlands they have a system where you have 1 day in hospital then a midwife comes to the home for 7 days all day…. maybe thats not correct, but sounded brilliant!
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that would be awesome!
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Yes the Netherlands have something like a 30% rate of homebirth. Birth is viewed very much as a non medical event, unless there are complications. Obstetrics is not big over there, midwives are the main care providers, even in the hospitals. And they come to your home every day for a week to provide support and help with the baby, which I think is fantastic and would be great if something like that happened here. It’s basically a completely different mindset and philosophy of birth.
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Its also one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Similar population to Australia with a land size on par with Tasmania. Everyone can get to a hospital in 20 minutes. That isn’t possible in Australia.
My dutch mother in law raves about her homebirths, with the knowledge that if anything went wrong she could be driven to safety.
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Dutch hospitals are unsafe, though. And walking home the next day is no walk in the park. Also…..why did i not apply for this after birth service again?? ah yeah.Noone told me about it.
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they do this in the uk too.
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Bon – vaginal birth can be dangerous for mother and baby in many, many ways. This is why maternal/feotal death rates were so high in days gone by. My birth was considered low risk and it went downhill very quickly. A vaginal birth occured but not without substantial trauma to me and injury to my son.
Also, my pelvic floor was perfect at doing it’s job right up until my labour and after the birth I had many troubles for months. This is the same for many of my friends and an ob. confirmed this, so not really sure where you got the info from.
There can’t be safe home birthing practices until the ideological argument between midwives and obs is dropped. It has in the past prevented midwives from sending women to hospital when it has become necessary resulting in the death of babies. This is why home birth is currently becoming harder to access. Perhaps this argument doesn’t exist in other countries to the extent it does in Australia.
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Lil as a student midwife I am aware of the risks of vaginal birth. I also know that in normal pregnancy it is the safest way to birth for both mum and baby. The main reason women died from childbirth in the distant past was not the actual birth itself but infection after the birth or loss of blood, both of which are perfectly manageable today. Vaginal birth is not inherently dangerous. The mechanism of it is really quite amazing, how the baby moves down and through the pelvis, and both the baby and the mother’s body seem to work in synch. I just think it’s fascinating how it all works.
My info about pelvic floor etc came from my own research. It makes sense when you think about it though – I mean you have a baby growing in there, putting
downwards pressure on your muscles for at least the last 3 months of the
pregnancy. That is bound to have an effect. Also, incontinence/bladder issues in later life are just as likely to affect women who had caesarian births as those who gave birth vaginally. It is now thought that some women might just be predisposed to it, and so how you give birth really has very little affect.
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Bon, you are just not going to convince some people of this I’m afraid. I agree with you, women have lost faith in their bodies, sometimes screaming for an epidural as soon as they enter birth suite, but you and I both know that until midwives and drs can see eye to eye we will have these power struggles and birth will continue to be run on a medicalised model. We also need a cultural shift in the way birth is viewed.
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Bon, my baby wasn’t going to come out and with a thready heartbeat, a lactic acid level (his) being 5 times what it should have been, I had both midwives and the ob. telling me that either my baby, me or both of us were going to die without intervention. Nothing to do with infection or post-birth complications.
Your research is wrong on the pelvic floor. Babies heads do put pressure on it during the pregnancy, but the birth itself stretches and weakens it to the point of it being fairly useless for some women. My brother-in-law is an obstetrician and I asked him again today and he confirmed this.
This attitude is exactly what scares me about midwives – so much rhetoric and not enough knowledge to help women make truly informed choices.
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Lil, I agree with you re: the scariness of Bon’s comments on pelvic floor damage. Midwives can be supportive in the process of vaginal birth but they do not deal with women 15-20 years later when they are persistently incontinent from birth-related trauma. Offering advice on topics outside their scope of practice is dangerous.
Truly informed choices can only be made after looking at scans, and considering both the mother’s and baby’s condition with someone like your brother in law – an obstetrician.
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Bon, your comment is stunningly ignorant! I’m a doctor, and vaginal birth risks all kinds of horrific injuries, and pelvic floor damage and incontinence are extremely common ones – caused by the birth, not the pregnancy. And how is vaginal birth not dangerous? The aforementioned injuries aside, maternal and infant mortality rates are sky high worldwide.
Furthermore, low risk births at home are fine…until an unforeseen complication arises. Even in a hospital with an operating theatre in the next room we see healthy babies become disabled through lack of oxygen during birth, etc (just an example).
Every woman should have the right to choose how she gives birth (home, hospital, natural, c-section), so long as she is actually informed about the risks and benefits. Which you clearly are not.
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This is the type of topic that gets so popular it’s actually off putting. I’m going to need a day to just to read all the messages! :-/
To be honest I don’t really have an opinion on the issue (no babies yet and ignorant about the whole issue) so it’ll be interesting to see what people think is the norm.
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Isn’t focusing on the birth rather than the fact that you are going to have a child rather like focussing on the wedding rather than the marriage?
Do what is right for you. It is one day in the life your child. Just one day. Surely what happens after that is more important
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Gosh are you looking inside my brain?? These are my sentiments exactly.
.
The birth is a means to an end, the end being a happy new little family.
Who gives a ratspatootie how you got there just as long as everyone is physically and mentally well and happy.
At least we have the luxury of choice in this country maybe we should all just be happy about that
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It may only be one day but it’s certainly not an average day, it’s literally a life-changing day.
I get a bit upset at comments like yours because my first childs birth was very difficult and I was very upset about it for a long time, I couldn’t talk about it without crying for more than three years. And having people say “it’s just one day” comes across as very dismissive. It wouldn’t be such a hot topic (681 comments and counting) if it were just another day.
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I started reading through the comments but I only got through a few before I saw this one and just went “ugh”…
“I’m sorry to say this but it is actually true- if you can’t handle the pain of childbirth then maybe you’re not strong enough to be a mother. Just my opinion.”
Seriously?
I’m four months pregnant, and it’s this kind of thinking that makes me totally shy away from wanting to be part of the “mummy scene”. We should be supporting each other. I think I’ll stick to my ob/gyn, family, friends and husband for advice and opinions from now on. The wider female community is just too judgemental for me!
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Don’t let it put you off completely…my daughter is nearly 3 and I’ve only just figured out how to not take any notice of judgements like that one (with regards to motherhood and parenting)…amazing what some say really…hope the rest of the pregnancy goes well x
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thank you!
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Oh wow – I just thought that myself!!!!!
I’m 25 weeks pregnant and am really struggling with all the pressures of “perfect mum”. Even though this pregnancy was unplanned, my partner and I couldn’t be happier! But everywhere we go “are you going to breastfeed? And for how long?” “Are you going to take pain relief?” “Vaginal/C-Section” and there always seems to be a “Right” and “wrong” answer.
I know I am going to be a good mum – I can’t wait to be the best darn mum out there – but having other women and mum’s judge me at every point and turn makes me feel so stressed out sometimes! It makes my partner upset as well, because stressing about other people’s opinions is the last thing he wants me to stress about.
I am personally petrified of childbirth. I have been ever since I was young. I am currently getting my head around the fact that because I don’t have a choice in the matter I’m just going to have to suck it up and give it a go – but that doesn’t mean it scares the crap out of me any less! I honestly believe women should have the choice. Your body – your right.
And maybe (referring back to a comment earlier) instead of sitting here judging others for their personal choices, and saying “you’re not fit to be a mother because -” we should just all accept that we are all/were in the same boat and support one another. Not judge.
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Completely understand why this is so off-putting for you! But please know that there are also lots of gorgeous mums who will be happy to support you, lend an ear, and help you work through choices with all the issues that arise with babies and small kids.
I have heard many Mother’s Group horror stories, and wasn’t going to join one for that reason. But thank goodness I did – it’s been a really lovely, supportive network and I’ve become close friends with several of the girls.
And, like anything in life, you soon learn who to listen to (and who has your best interests at heart), and when to just smile and switch the topic to the weather!
All the best, hope you are enjoying this wonderful special stage!
x E
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that comment makes my blood boil. i think she takes herself way too seriously.
i’m not big on the “mummy scene” but did join a mother’s group and was lucky to meet 10 other lovely women. only one is a bit judgemental but easy enough to ignore.
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It is certianly a ridiculous thing to say as the physical pain of childbirth and the role of parenting are very very different. How can you say someone who finds pain hard to tolerate wont make a good mum??
HOWEVER, would have to say, there is a lot of truth in the notion that no matter how hard the birth might be, it is a blip in the radar of lifelong motherhood. I dont mean that to sound patronising. It just is. Its a day, being a mum is a job for life.
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That comment gets my back up, too!
It seems like it’s probably from the point of view of someone who is either not a mother, or who has forgotten much of the lead-up to having a baby.
When pregnant I found all my energy was focussed on the birth – I figured the mothering part would be easy. (yes, I can hear you all laughing!)
Once I had my daughter, I discovered the first two months was the most incredible trial by fire i’ve ever experienced. If you asked me at the end of that two months what I thought about birth I would have told you that I barely remembered it and that removing my daughter through my nose with a fish hook would have been easier than everything I was going through in the aftermath.
Now, with the benefit of hindsight, I can see my birth experience AND the first weeks as a mother as both being unbelievably challenging – just that they both present a totally different set of challenges. You can’t compare them.
And the other posters are right – there are some really lovely moms and mum’s groups out there. And good luck with your pregnancy – you’re at the lovely part right now with the flutters of movement and still being able to reach your own shoelaces!
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Oh Alexandra, take heart not all mum’s are so judgemental. I think you’ll find just like in all walks of life some people are judgemental and others not. The mum’s who are so intent on enforcing their own ideology on others, I bet were pretty judgemental generally before having kids. In my experience, I have met such incredibly supportive mum’s through mother’s group etc. We were just commenting the other day how we have become even more empathetic to other people with children since having our own! There are many many mum’s out there who don’t judge those who have had c-sections or bottle feed. Good luck!
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Thanks to you all for your advice. I guess because I’m new to all this I was a little shocked to see such negativity in what I envisioned would be a supportive environment. Nice to know it’s not all doom and gloom!
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I haven’t read much of this thread, but don’t shy away from the ‘mummy scene’ as they are all different. Without my mothers group I would have been a lonely mess after I had Miss 8. We still catch up a few times a year (well, 5 out of the original 10 of us do) and just last night we had the daughter of one of the other mums for a sleepover. The two girls have known each other since they were a few weeks old, and have a lovely bond.
Best of luck with the baby! x
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From working in the public health system and in hospital management for 10 years….the reality is that C-section (SURGERY) cost a significant amount more than a vaginal birth. The public hospital system is suffering so terribly at the moment due to the lack of budget and major cost cutting to essential services (despite close to 45% of the state budget going to health). The reality is unfortunately that if you dont have private health insurance the health department cannot afford to offer Caesareans other than in emergency situation. Im not saying our health system is the best however if we allowed women accessing the public system to have Caesareans due to preference it wouldn’t be long before we need to resort to the USA health system….
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How come the UK has such a sophisticated healthcare system where everyone is equal- even My Australian cousin who only has a temporary working visa gets her diabetes medication and contraceptive pill practically free! Not to mention that giving birth IS FREE and is better than most private hospitals here. Why do we have to go the US route? We don’t – if the UK can do it- so can we. Let’s push in that direction.
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You obviously have never used the NHS (UK health system). I live in the UK and we are horrified by how badly run it is. Yes there might be free scripts but believe me it is not worth the generally bad level of care you get.
It is definately NOT sophisticated which is why they are bringing in huge changes here now.
And if you look at your pay at the end of the month you will see the amount you pay to the NHS is about the same you pay for private health insurance in Oz.
I could go and on about it – it really is the pits!
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Sorry I got it wrong. The point I was really trying to make was that we don’t want a health system like the one in America where if you don’t have insurance you don’t get care (you can it will just cost thousands) and insurance companies frequently deny claims. I know Obama is trying to fix it. My point was that comparatively speaking those living in Australia and UK are very lucky indeed. It really is sophisticated compared to other developed and developing nations.
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I sooo agree, the level of care is no where near what you get here.
I remember once injuring my wrist and having to wait 4 months to see a specialist who then booked me in for an MRI which took 9 months to get an appointment for. I rigged up my own little brace from something from the chemist and it was better on its own before I even got the MRI.
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giving birth might be free but let me assure you (having done both) – giving birth on the NHS is NOTHING like giving birth under the Australian private system – CERTAINLY not ‘better than most’!
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I think the situation is different in each state. In Victoria, you most certainly can have an elective caeser in a public hospital. Without health insurance. Not a cent to pay afterwards…
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You can in every state, just not one without a medical reason.
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i haven’t read all the posts, but i can say i have had three natural deliveries, some much easier and some much harder than others. i will openly admit that i felt so empowered by my own strength and determination. i really have no fears about my ability to manage pain. that might be wrong, that might be right.
i think engaging in routine midwife bashing is wrong. i have such incredible experiences with my midwives. i have heard far more horror stories about obstetricians.
my advice to anyone who is pregnant and really keen for a natural delivery is: read as many positive birth stories as you can, avoid the bad ones. read ina may gaskins books. look into alternative pain relief (hypnobirthing etc). where i live c/section rates are MUCH higher than 41% in the private sector, so it made sense for me to see midwives in a public hospital. i knew that would help my chances of a natural delivery, but not guarantee it.
i do believe that women should be able to make informed choices. but that means they need to realise that there is nothing easy about a c/section, it is still major abdominal surgery. if that is still their preferred choice then good on them. but by the same token women who really want a natural delivery should be equally supported and encouraged.
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There were 587 comments when I started to write this and now there are 588, that’s since this morning. I find it really interesting that we are so judgmental about this issue. If a woman has a right to choose whether they maintain a pregnancy, they also get to choose how they deliver the baby. I am NOT an advocate for elective caesareans but another woman’s choice about how she delivers her baby is none of my business. Lets leave our sisters to their informed choices about what’s right for them and their babies.
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My suggestion is to start at the first comment, when it was first put up. Its quite non-judgemental (except for one strange post), people just telling their stories. Even though this article was only put up yesterday, I find the longer they stay up, the nastier the comments get, at the beginning, its all friendship and light!
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I’m sorry to say this but it is actually true- if you can’t handle the pain of childbirth then maybe you’re not strong enough to be a mother. Just my opinion.
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But you don’t know what each birth is going to be like and how you’re going to react! I’m supposed to have a high pain tolerance going on pain I’ve experienced before, but who knows what ‘ll be like in labour?
How is “just your opinion” actually true? I don’t think that is actually possible. Just sayin.
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It’s true because a lot of history is based on survival of the fittest. Sure, it’s my opinion, bUt it’s a medical opinion too.
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What on earth does that mean? Survival of the fittest? So people who can’t birth naturally should die? How is survival of the fittest a medical opinion? I think (hope) I’ve misunderstood you.
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Oh.
You do realise that an opinion, by virtue of it being, you know, an opinion, can’t be true or false, right?
I’m now going to make sure I’ve got popcorn to watch the reactions to your post, Mel. Thanks for the entertainment.
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Such a smart alec response, why are some posts moderated heavily and some not.
Wouldn’t want to be at this dinner party…
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It’s a controversial thing for Mel to say, guaranteed to get a response! Sheesh!
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Sheesh all you like, but you wouldn’t speak to someone like that at a dinner party.
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I doubt someone would come out with something like what Mel said at a dinner party either, but as you know me so well, you’d know that I would actually say that, anonymous. Are you going to have a go at the comments below as well?
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@ Kris, I don’t know you at all, you’re on here a lot but you’re a stranger to me so I won’t judge you at all, I just thought the popcorn statement was really smart ass.
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It was. I am a smartarse. And if someone came out with “If you can’t handle the pain of childbirth you’re not strong enough to handle parenthood” at a dinner party where people had related their stories and issues relating to childbirth and Caesars, I would say “Right, where’s the popcorn, this should be good”.
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It was a controversial thing to say, no arguments from me there.
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Hmm, so if it is all about ‘survivial of the fittest’ – I guess you never take any medication, vaccinate, or have had any surgery of any kind? Coz that would be cheating the ‘survival of the fittest’ thing wouldn’t it?
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Are you a mother yourself Mel?
If I had to guess I’d say no because that is one crazy comment to come from someone who has experienced childbirth (of any kind).
During labour my body couldn’t manage to push out my baby and if I hadn’t had an emergency c section my baby probably would have died. So according to ‘survival of the fittest’ does that mean the doctor should have just let that happen?
If it were you in labour and you were told that you needed a c section or you risk the life of your baby and possibly yourself would you have said no?
If a loved one or yourself got very sick, say with cancer, would you forego any medical treatment in favour of a ‘survival of the fittest/let nature take its course’ attitude?
I say thank goodness for caesareans because alot of wonderful people would not be here without them.
A little less judgement I think Mel.
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What a silly comment! It’s not always about “handling pain”. A lot of the time it’s about the life of the mother and child.
Not everyone who has a caesar says “oh doctor please whip it out under anaesthetic while I do my nails so giving birth fits in with my ski trip”.
Babies get in wrong positions. Some women are built too small. Does this mean they should die, or the baby should suffer brain damage out of pure pigheadedness?
I don’t see what pain thresholds have to do with the ability to be a mother anyway. Maybe if you’re too dumb to understand the need for caesareans you’re not smart enough to be a mother. Just my opinion.
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“Maybe if you’re too dumb to understand the need for caesareans you’re not smart enough to be a mother. Just my opinion.”
GOLD!!
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Some women are very anxious by nature and find being pregnant and the thought of giving birth very stressful. I know women who have had a caesarean because they were frightened of going through the pain of a vaginal delivery and they are excellent mothers.
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Wow. I’m imagine this is a dinner party…and you’ve just said that:
*flings red wine in Mel Coen’s face”
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I’m one of the women ‘lumped’ in the elective caesar category, however my caesar was not elective, but planned. My baby was breech, and very small, going into labour or waiting until I did and performing an emergency caesar was not an option for us. I was very upset when it became clear that a natural birth was not on the cards for us but I always remember this…we fall pregnant to have a baby not to have a birth!
My beautiful little girl is now 2.5 years old, healthy and happy…what more could I ask for?
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“we fall pregnant to have a baby not to have a birth!”
So true. I wish that was drummed into people’s heads, not extremes from one end of the spectrum to the other!
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