BY VIRGINIA TRIOLI
My Italian grandmother had a dog called Bindi. A doe-eyed beagle with soft, warm, caramel-coloured ears, Bindi would always enjoy a quiet breakfast with my grandma before most of the household was up. As she enjoyed her own coffee, grandma would tip a weak, warm caffe latte into Bindi’s bowl. Bindi would eagerly lap it up. Then the dog would be shooed outside and spend her day wandering the huge, fruit tree-filled garden and lying in the sun. Italians don’t mollycoddle their dogs: they may be loved, but they are just animals.
As a child I adored that dog, and one day Bindi was gifted to us, becoming a much-loved member of my family until that saddest of days. She was, until recently, the only dog I have ever had.
I have always been nervous about combining a dog and a baby: horror stories in the news of jealous canines and fits of animal rage easily draw my eye and have persuaded me that these two creatures are not a wise fit – at least not until a child was of a certain age. I once ran into a nervous grandfather who confided to me that his pregnant daughter shared an apartment with two great Danes that had been treated as children themselves. He was terrified at what would happen when the baby came. I didn’t even know his daughter, but at the end of the conversation, so was I.
However, my grandmother’s genes must be strong within me. Bunk, the chocolate lab, has been a family member for three years now, and while he is adored in this household, he’s no baby. He sleeps outside, he is not fed from the table (except by evil friends who can’t resist), and he is not allowed upstairs nor in the lounge room. OK, so he’s started leaping on the TV-room couch for a snooze whenever we’re not around, and I am a little ashamed to admit that I just don’t have the heart to shoo him off when I catch him.
Like most labs, our dog is wonderful with children: infinitely patient, and able to discreetly remove himself from the action when it all gets a bit much. I see my nieces with their little ball of fluff, and they say they can’t remember or imagine a time without him. It makes me so happy that my child will have a best friend from birth, of the unconditional kind.
But there is a hierarchy in this house and Bunk ain’t at the top. This hierarchy is crucial if we are to avoid chaos and unnecessary mess, and it’s one that dogs well understand: there is one top dog, and everybody else follows in order.
I often wonder if this hierarchy could provide a useful parallel for all those households I keep reading about that appear to be held hostage by the King Child: homes where everything revolves around the needs of the child; where children and parents are friends, where the views and wants of the child have equal status with mum and dad. There’s a phrase I hear so often in some households around the suicide hour that stops my heart with dread at the monster some parents are creating: “… so, what would you like for dinner?” What is this – a restaurant?
Yes, I get it: I sound just like the smug parent-to-be who thinks they know everything, and who is clearly headed for a fall. I am hoping that all my years of teen-rearing will count for something in this new adventure, but I do realise these are foreign fields I am about to enter. Like all who have gone before me, I’ll have to decide on some principles, hold to them in the tough times, and be prepared to compromise when they just don’t work. At least I will have a trusty hound at my side to help.
This post first appeared in The Weekly Review and has been republished with permission from the author
Virginia Trioli is the presenter of ABC News Breakfast on ABC1 and ABC News 24, 6-9am weekdays. She has an established reputation as a radio host, television presenter, news reporter, features writer and columnist. You can and should visit her blog here.
Comments
98 Comments so far
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Well…. there’s a lot of “yes! and no!” in my immediate response to this.
With regard to dogs… 100%, absolutely. My grandfather bred german shepherds. He loved them, but they were dogs, he was boss. Any children were *not* to be around them unsupervised, as they could not be 100% trusted, even though he had trained them excellently, and they never scared or harmed me as a small child. He was adamant there was always a risk. The one exception was goregeous beautiful Rahnee, who was old, almost deaf and blind (and probably arthritic) by the time I kew her. I think, to her, I was the pup she never had! I used to happily sit between her front paws, curled up. But unquestionably, if a dog hurt a child, even if the child had been stupid and gone against the rules about how to properly treat a dog, I know the dog would’ve got in trouble.
And yes, I tend to agree about the hierarchy stuff too. I have a daughter who recently turned 3, and she most definitely does not get final say in most things. Of course her opinion is valued, in what she wants to play / wear / eat, but I will usually offer two options, and expect her to pick one of those ideas. If there’s something else that is repeatedly requested, and reasonable, well then, I’ll maybe get it, but only as and when I can – I’m not rushing out that day, necessarily. I want a happy child, but not a spoiled one – I honestly don’t believe spoiling ultimately increases a child’s happiness anyway, for how will she learn contentment?
However, for very young babies – realistically, theirs needs *are* quite acute. They don’t have the psychological maturity to predict that needs will be met, they simply know either they are (and always will be), or aren’t (and never will be). This is why young babies scream when Mum goes to the toilet. As far as they’re concerned, Mum is ‘gone forever’, for that minute or so. When very little babies need a nappy change / feed / sleep / more or less clothing, they need it *now*, otherwise they get highly distressed. For this reason, I will unquestioningly meet a young baby’s needs sooner rather than later.
But as Steve Biddulph says, “Babies have simple needs – but toddlers want the world!” To me, this is when you *stop* satisfying every request – when you instinctively know it’s a want, and *not* a need. I’m happy to validate wants – “Yes, I know that’s what you want, I heard you” – but I will also refuse it, especially if greedy or impractical – “You don’t get everything you want / that’s just not possible, at least today. Maybe tomorrow / next week.” She recently had a party for her birthday, so now we’re getting into the “No, that was special day, you don’t always get all the lollies / toys / treat drinks you want.” I want her to *know* that birthdays are special, and treats are for special occasions.
There are certainly interesting times ahead for me. I’m 37 weeks pregnant, and once bub arrives, he will be having his needs met as required, while I hope to keep her convinced that she’s a big girl, with a lot more maturity and independence. I’m inspired by a visit with my in-laws when she was very little. She was the centre of everyone’s attention, and my brother-in-law joked, “Why doesn’t anyone wait on me hand and foot like that?!” Quick as a wink, MIL jumps in with, “Because you had your turn when you were her age. I remember!” – coupled with a wry grin. The words carried no sting, but clearly made the point. I got the feeling it was not the first time she’d made that point (as the mother of five!!). Not for the first time, I think I’ll be following her example!
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when asked what’s for dinner – it’s always FOOD. once on the table, when asked what it is – answer’s always FOOD.
If you asked my mother what’s for dinner – she’d say ARSENIC!! code for “buzz off” and let me fry that mince with onion and tell you it’s bolognese
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I don’t think of this article so much about the dog, but of the last paragraphs stating that you won’t have a household that revolves around your kids. Yes, you do sound like a typical mum to be who thinks that you will have it all figured out. I know this because I was one. I used to say all the time ‘I’m not going to be one of those Mums who only talks about their kids….’ blah blah blah. Well, you know what? I do, all the time. And why bloody not??? Having children is the best thing you can ever do, and I am a huge advocate in spoiling them rotten, telling them and everyone else who cares to listen how wonderful they are. And asking them what they would like for dinner? Well they are my children, of course I value their opinion, and of course I want to give them something that their little tummies may feel like. I’m the same with my husband. Why should we women feel less of a human being because we want to care and nurture our loved ones. Knowing that my kids and husband are well cared for and happy is the greatest pleasure and there is no shame in that.
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My mother would ask ‘What would you like for dinner’ because she soon tired of having to think of meals for us every day!
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I have always had animals in my life, and I’m not talking about my brother either
When I was born, my parents got a puppy. Her name was Spot. Spot and I grew up together, and were best friends. The stories my mum told me about Spot, and what she was really like were awesome. Like the time that I went wandering off by myself to a friends house at 3 years old. Spot followed me and stood outside the front of the house I was in so my parents knew where I was. Then once my brother was born, Spot stood in between my brother and two pitbulls that lived next door, even though there was a fence. She was a good dog.
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I think its wonderful for kids to have a family pet. Keep the boundaries in place for the dog and the baby. You dont want to end up with a sore back because you’re sharing your bed with your dog and cant sleep comfortably….and you dont want to end up with one of those ‘what do you want for dinner’ spoilt brats who only eats what they demand either
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awww, I got my puppy when I was 16. A maltese terrier I named Wicket because I firmly believe they look like ewoks when first born (my mum bred them). Wicket was definitely my baby. I walked him, fed him, clipped him, bathed him, trained him. I taught him how to stand on two legs and mosh to nirvana. When I fudged my hair he would come into the bathroom and not leave until i fudge the top of his head as well. He was born with a natural Mohawk, so he looked awesome..
When I was 22 I had my real baby. Wicket was quite curious to meet this noisy new addition that I seemed to shower attention on. Everyone told me he would probably attack her or something because i babied him so much… instead, he appointed himself Kamerons guard. He would sit by her bouncer thingy as she slept and make sure she was ok. Sometimes he would sleep next to her bouncer, but only if i was close by and watching her. If she cried, he would fret. In fact, he was pretty amazing with her. He never bit her – even when she got a bit rough playing with him as a toddler. He passed away almost a year ago. A year ago in a couple of days. sometimes I think she misses him more than I do… =)
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When i was 3 i had a beautiful Great Dane puppy on my arrival home from school one day u went bolting out the back to see her only to be stopped in my tracks by my mum. She said “Sheba is sick you can’t see her now” turned out Sheba had died of gastro in a matter of hours mum had had the vet around and nothing could be done. The breeder we bought her from was so sad she let us pick another puppy so i got my Sheba ( mark 2) who was my constant companion until i was 8 when she was stolen from our house. She was the most amazing dog i remember she and i would wrestle like we were siblings but when the baby of the family came toddling out into the back yard she would skid to a halt and drop her head and at that point would let my sister pull her ears or poke her up the nose and Sheba would just stand. It was like she knew that this was a delicate person unlike me who was her friend. It would be 10 years before i bought another dog my boxer Ophelia who was just as amazing with the new baby of our family. I have a mother like yours Virginia we love our pets but they are not people, we spoil them sometimes but ultimately they know my mum is the boss. I had to re house my beautiful girl as i moved to sydney, when she was 7, into a one bedroom and my parents moved into a townhouse we couldn’t bare to coup her up with no backyard so we spoke to Boxer Rescue who looked after her until she passed. I will never ever own another dog again, as it is i have had two cats for the past 12 years (one has gone to cat heaven, actually for her likely cat hell she was such a wench but so affectionate) but whenever i tour with a show which is my career someone has to look after them cats are a little easier. I’m lucky in that i have bought all my animals from reputable breeder ans whenever i am in a jam they get to go hang out with their litter mates and sometimes their mum. It’s unlucky that i chose to be a performer who travels for a living but when you are 17 you don’t imagine that it will be that hard to find a friend to look after your baby. After my boy dies i’m done with any pets it’s too hard. I get judged because i buy from breeders or because i desex before they have any litters or because i never let either of my cats outside unless on a leash with me. But at least i know in my heart i loved them and did the best i could, they never got run over by cars, or caught infectious diseases or got into fights requiring surgery to repair ears or threw a litter that i couldn’t care for. But its hard and i never know what life holds next and so for that reason i will never be a pet owner again
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I grew up with dogs who were loved and “part of the family” but our parents always taught us and them that they were “bottom of the pack” and that it needed to be clear to them. We got a dog when our girls were 5, and he’s a slightly nervous Pomeranian, great with our kids but not trustworthy with strangers unfortunately. He sleeps outside and is not allowed on furniture or in bedrooms (mainly cos he pees on the beds!), but within the rules and treated with respect but firmness he is gorgeous.
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I see no problem with that if it’s the way it’s always been- dogs need and want a pack leader. Just PLEASE don’t be one of those people who rehomes or neglects because “since we had the baby we just don’t have the time anymore”. That makes me so furious and is ridiculously common.
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Oh I completely agree! I have worked at an animal shelter and there are so many animals surrendered when people have a baby. It’s such a terrible excuse. A pet is for life.
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Interestingly my sister was told not keep her cats by her OB as she could get a disease that has just slipped my mind ( grrrr). She asked her vet and he said it was possible if she ate 3 day old faeces. Sometimes people are easily scared ( not justifying just observing). Even all the old wives tails of cats smothering babies out of jealousy or to get the milk.
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Its toxoplasmosis. Apparently you can get it if you’re careless with your hygiene after changing a cat litter box. I just used gloves or got someone else to do it when pregnant. Cats do love baby bassinets. We had to toss our cats out of the bassinets/cots for some time. The reason they’re a smother risk is because cats love to sleep up against you for your body warmth and young babies can’t move away if necessary.
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and what better excuse not to have to clean out the litter box
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I wonder was Virginia Trioli’s dog named “Bunk” after the character in The Wire? Probably not but I just loved that series.
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Ohhhhh, best show ever made! Have you seen Treme? It’s by the same guy and has Bunk and Lester in it. The actors, anyway.
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Yes Loulee — well spotted! He was named after Bunk from ‘the Wire’ — our favorite character.
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“….She took my shoes….”
“Aight. I ain’t that humble….”
Love the Bunk.
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Virginia, excuse me shouting, but YES I COULDN’T AGREE MORE!!!! I have 2 kids, one 4 and one 5, and they have coexisted very happily with our dear Tess (who died when child no 1 was 2 yrs old), and now Jetta (both Labrador/Kelpie crosses). We love our dogs, BUT they are NOT PEOPLE, and they know exactly where they belong in the pecking order – at the bottom. Our kids have also been made aware from a very young age how to handle/behave around dogs, and they are always supervised (although, it has to be said, not always very closely!) and so far (touch wood) we have had no nasty incidents whatsoever.
I also agree re small people and spoiling. My brother (Dad to 2 gorgeous boys) I think put it best when speaking of friends of theirs “negotiating” (his words) with their kids – “This isn’t a democracy, it’s a dictatorship, and the adults are in charge, kids aren’t old enough to know what they need (although they might think they do!), our job is to make the choices they NEED!’
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I tell our kids that they do not live in a democracy. They live in a Benevolent Dictatorship and the level of benevolence is subject to change according to their behaviour…. Big words, but they get it
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Oh i think i love you!!! Mum is that you???
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I swear there was a cute pic of a dog and a baby when I opened this on my phone!
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Our gentle, gorgeous pure bred golden retriever was treated like a child. When kids came along a few years later, we had him move to outside to sleep etc etc. He responded by biting a toddler on the face who required stitches. The vet said it was a classic case of jealousy – don’t fool yourselves, they’re dogs and as nice as it sounds to have “babies sleeping in our bed with the dogs too” they’re instincts to mark their territory…….
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Probably because you treated your gentle, gorgeous goldie like a child, rather than like a dog. What did you expect?
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I think that’s exactly what Sheridan was saying, very honestly.
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Dogs need to understand their boundaries in the family I agree. But – and with respect to Sheridan because I don’t know the details of your situation – it sounds like the problem wasn’t so much treading the dog like a child, but treating it with a higher order level of attention that was then by the sounds of it significantly withdrawn when the kids came along. Dogs are pretty smart – they would see the kids as the reason they aren’t receiving as much love and attention. I wonder if the dog had received equal or near-equal treatment pre- and post-kids whether this would have happened…
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I’m sorry that happened to your family Sheridan. It must have been a very hard time for all of you. Thank you for sharing this message – hopefully it will prevent another child from being hurt (which I think is why you wrote it!)
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Virginia, I don’t think you sound smug at all, and you’re going to be just fine!!
We have a dog whose position on the totem pole has slid further and further south with every child, but he’s adapted and is a loyal, gentle, loving and obedient family pet who is well rewarded for his acceptance of the situation as it stands.
Likewise, as parents my husband I are also believers of the same school of heirarchy. We are the bosses. What we say goes. There is always consultation with our kids (and often we are convinced to change our minds), but ultimately we have the final say. Our girls are assertive, outspoken individuals who are also respectful, well behaved and polite.
Everyone’s entitled to ‘run’ their family their way, but for us it means a happy, harmonious structure because everyone knows where they stand.
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ah yes, girls…. just quietly, a boy or two will completely mess with the program. From our experience, girls are actually MUCH more compliant than boys. Not that there is anything wrong with either way, but many of our friends who only have daughters are very quick to criticise our parenting style – because their girls never behave like our boys… We finally got a girl and we are AMAZED by the difference
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In our house, family rules are one thing: made and enforced by Mum and Dad. Family decisions (meal plan, play ideas, etc) are different: Everyone has input. No pets, kids keep me busy enough at this point one toilet training, one learning how to crawl!
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We have a 2kg Maltese & a 7kg shitzu x silky & today we picked up a foster beagle from the pound. Our son is 3 months old and our girls (the dogs) love him too much!! Lots of doggy kisses and cuddles. So we never leave him unattended where the girls can reach him. He has a massive play pen which he sits in if I have to leave the room and his bedroom is baby gated (I like to think its a puppy gate)
Our dogs sleep on our bed and have free range of the house except bubs room. People often comment that our dogs are treated like humans, but I don’t see a problem with this since they are consistantly much nicer than most humans I have met!
When we bought bub home everyone freaked out about the dogs being inside but the way I see it, they were here first this is their home and our baby will just need to fit in with them. He sleeps through them barking or licking him and he laughs while watching them play. Our tiny Maltese also has afternoon naps on our bed with him and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
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I don’t mean to be rude but this doesn’t sound very hygienic.
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Nah it’s good for kids to be exposed to germs!
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Our baby girl was born flat (no vital signs) and had to be resuscitated.. To cut a looooong story short, she is fine now (at almost 5 years old) however the Paediatrician from the Royal Childrens Hospital in Melbourne kept a close eye on her as she grew up. At 12 months old he specifically asked us if we had a dog. We said yes but he doesnt go near the baby. He told us that they needed interaction! He said to let them share food, lick her face etc. He said it is so good for her immune system!
Just another point of view…
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My GP told me the same thing. So glad you’re baby girl is ok now. x
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Totally. My daughter was suffering alot of allergies and our doc recommended getting a dog. Six months later the severity of her allergies have significantly reduced and some have completely gone. Interaction with ‘unhygienic’ dogs are good!
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Oh yeah I’m with you on this hierarchy business. I only said to my 11yo the other day who is currently pushing the parental authority boundaries “we are not flat mates sharing a house, I’m the parent so I make the rules”!
Looks like I have turned into my mother after all. Sigh.
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My granddaughter is now eight and a half and becoming a difficult person when things dont go her way – affects a hearing loss when necessary! I am also of the opinion and grandparenting style of “this is my house, and when you are here as my guest, you then observe the way we live”. Kids will always push boundaries. She is allowed some slack as regards TV watching as she doesnt have a tv at home.
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we have a beautiful beautiful golden retriever and he is so part of our family. We got him about 18 months before baby arrived, he was good training and put us on a nice gentle learning curve.
We had to learn about coming home, walking (or we’d get THOSE EYES) feeding and making sure there was appropriate food, not being able to just go away for a weekend without planning.
All very helpful.
He’s now gone down 3 pegs. He’s 7 and he is just so important to us all. We adore him and he’s always with us. He’s easy and loves us and he doesn’t have tantrums!!!
We’ve always given him free reign but he’s got his own bed, his own teddy and aside from following us around and not being great at getting out of the way he’s perfect.
He’s taught us and the children lots. He’s taught them about love, responsibility and he loves to wrestle with them. But he’s gentle and he’s not got a nasty bone in his body. He growled once and that was when he was threatened and was proctecting the baby in the pram. Aside from that, never seen his teeth aside from when he smiles at us.
Dogs are the best. We love him and keep on top of the training side of things, he knows his place in our family and that seems to make him happy.
He loves wine o’clock though, when the kids are in bed he and I have a special cuddle and pat and he sleeps on my feet.
I adore my dog. He’s my first baby.
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here he is.
How can you NOT love him
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Oh! He looks just like mine! We bought pure bred golden retriever puppy about two weeks ago.He is 8 months old and my 4 children just ADORE him. My two year old twin boys treat him like an extra sibling..talking to him and arguing with him when he takes their toys or gets in their way on the playground. So far his favourite place is the boys sandpit. It makes me laugh to see all three of them digging in the sand together. My daughters race home from school every afternoon and take him for walks and sit in the evening and pat and cuddle him while they watch tv. He has just fit so well into our household.. I am so glad we decided to get him.
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Golden retrievers are the best pets around children. Chelsea was with us for twelve wonderful years and I never remember her snapping or growling at anyone. She just oozed love! the eyes said it all! she was naughty sometimes, was roused on after digging up the two ringed tailed possums she had buried in the back yard!
She gave and received unconditional love and we will miss her forever.
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He’s gorgeous!
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The Dog Rules :
1. The dog is not allowed in the house.
2. Okay, the dog is allowed in the house, but only in certain rooms.
3. The dog is allowed in all rooms, but has to stay off the furniture.
4. The dog can get on the old furniture only.
5. Fine, the dog is allowed on all the furniture, but is not allowed to sleep with the humans on the bed.
6. Okay, the dog is allowed on the bed, but only by invitation.
7. The dog can sleep on the bed whenever he wants, but not under the covers.
8. The dog can sleep under the covers by invitation only.
9. The dog can sleep under the covers every night.
10. Humans must ask permission to sleep under the covers with the dog.
I made it to Rule no.4, with the exception of Rule no 6. every Saturday morning.
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Love it! We used to be 6, but have toughened up to 4!
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haha we’re about at 7! no way are they getting under the covers!
it’s easier with a tiny Maltese and tinier Schipperke – labs would be a little harder
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That is possibly the funniest thing I have read all week! Sounds just like our house!
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Love this too! These were the rules in our house with our 14 yrs old Cocker, sadly he passed away last year. But had a good run of the house for at least 13.5 years.
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Dogs in my house are on number 7 but I don’t think we’ll progress any further, I like my clean sheets!
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That photo of the dog with the baby freaks ne out. Just one chomp! Dogs are definitely a no no around babies. Don’t understand people trusting dogs and even leaving dogs with their babies. Cats in the crib with a baby? WTF?!!! That’s just stupid! I only stepped away to answer the phone…
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I have two big dogs and a baby, and that photo freaks me out too! Not necessarily even a bite, but a misplaced paw and a scratch or squash. My dogs are inside a lot, but we have a baby gate, playpen and close supervision.
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I think the photo of the baby & the dog is beautiful. People often misjudge how gentle well trained and well cared for dogs can be, even big dogs : ) my hubby grew up with Rotti’s who slept in his bed with him from when he first started sleeping in a bed : )
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I agree – that photo gives me anxiety. Children put their complete faith in us as adults to make sure that they will be ok. How can we put that same faith in an animal? As parents we can’t prevent everything, but there are some things we can, like dog bites!!
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I totally agree. I would never let my child or baby get that close to a dog. I freaked when I saw it.
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I have a number of friends that have had babies and dogs around. Provided the dog and its general behaviour are known and gauged well, and there is ALWAYS supervision, it’s actually a really positive experience for babies and toddlers.
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I went to a baby shower last year, with my four year old and one year old. The parents to be have a one year old lab. My children are frightened of dogs – I don’t know why- they’ve never had a bad experience. My little boy spent the whole time in fear and tears because the dog has full run of the party and was jumping all over him. I understand it was the dogs home but I couldn’t understand why it couldn’t be locked away for an hour or so? We had to leave early because my little boy skinned his knee trying to run away from the dog who thought it was play and was chasing him.
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Good luck and good on you for outlining what you want before taking your seat on the crazy roller coaster of parenting.
My Mother’s only advice to me “Just remember you are the adult, you were here first!” It’s somewhat difficult on 3 hours sleep on aggregate to keep this in mind. We are only 6 months in, but so far everyone has survived. In the early days I thought we had been conquered by a tiny little screaming, non-sleeping, non-feeding child. But it passed, sleep does return, babies do take bottles and dare I say, we are even enjoying it.
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Good luck Virginia with your new adventure.
‘Parents-to-be’ are so filled with optimism and i love that. I was one of those people until tantrums, bullying, fussing eating and time-outs took over my life.
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I always ask for ideas when I’m doing the dinner menu, because it’s a lot easier than coming up with them all by myself. But, I do only cook one meal per night and without a doubt, there is always someone displeased at the table. There is rarely a night I don’t have to say “Don’t eat it if you don’t want, but this is the last food before bedtime”. However, on the topic of dogs, I’m with you. We adore our dog, all of us, but we recognise she is a dog. She sleeps inside at night (in her own bed), she gets plenty of love, attention and cuddles, but she spends her day outside. She eats last and she does what she’s told. She is also happy because she knows where her place is in the pecking order and allowed to fulfill her role as a dog, and not be forced into some surrogate human role. However, ask my MIL, and she’s terribly neglected. This is the person who’s dog bit my baby on the arm, drawing blood, and the dog was defended and made excuses for. Figures.
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*facepalm*
Needing a “hierarchy” with dogs is a complete myth, perpetrated by chauvinistic biologists and dog trainers who don’t know what they’re doing (or are seriously bad, like Cesar Milan. Really, that guy is no good)
Dogs require structure, and boundaries definitely, but this concept of a “top dog” is not something dogs understand!
Dog packs ARE like families. What has previously been called the “alpha male” and “alpha female” are actually the matriarch and patriarch. Parents teach children, older siblings teach younger siblings.
Dogs function on a “hierarchy of needs”- until their basic needs are met, and they are secure in that knowledge, you can’t do much else with them. And affection is a very strong basic need in dogs.
I have 3 beautiful big rescue dogs. Yes, they sleep inside. They even sleep on my bed, but I am still the mum, and they still listen to me. They are very happy and secure because they know the rules and they have structure.
My entire discipline strategy is actually based on affection. If you treat dogs like family, and give them what they require, they WANT to please you. It only takes a few words to make known that I am displeased and they change their behavior.
Tell me that works with children!!
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Renae, what you are describing in your home IS a hierarchy! You may call is something else, but it’s a hierarchy, with you at the top and dogs who need to follow the rules set by you.
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Oh, and yes it does work with children as well. The shit only hits the fan when there is no hierarchy, and kids are allowed to do what they like with no boundaries.
Yes I have kids – 4 of them, including 2 teenagers. And they (almost always) do what is expected of them. We have rules, boundaries and pretty high standards, and their father and I are at the top of the pecking order. There is also a huge amount of love and laughter in our home. The mixture of love, rules and boundaries = happy, well-adjusted kids (most of the time).
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Dogs do understand the concept of top dog. When my oldest child was 5 we got a border collie. We lived on a farm but she was a pet. This is, I believe, the smartest breed of dog. As she grew, she correctly identified my 5 year old as the leader of the pack and tried to dominate him. She ignored the next 2 children but when they were running around in the yard, she would jump up and nip my eldest boy. That summer he had the pockets ripped off a few of his pairs of shorts! He would complain to me of course, but I had to teach him to turn and stand up to the dog and say no.. It was no good me berating the dog as that would not have solved the problem. It was long ago but no doubt I did discipline the dog as well. Anyway, when my boy finally was able to do this, it was the end of the problem. She knew her place. Instinct made her want to herd the children and while in all other ways she was a gentle dog, she was the product of generations of breeding.
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Agree with what you have said (especially with the dog bit!!) While children should have some input into things, and their opinions heard, I definitely think that they need know that ultimately the parents are the bosses and their rules apply. It is part of discipline framework where children learn about boundaries. By all means let children pick what clothes they want to wear on the weekends and listen to them if they have something to say. Kyra? Sorry but I am not an a la carte restaurant. What my kids are served is what they get for dinner (and I don’t have awful bedtimes and so far they haven’t starved). Veronica – I agree.
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You don’t sound smug, you sound sensible. However as you say, there will be compromises. I married a man who refused to eat anything but vegemite toast and pasta with butter until he was 10 and he grew up in the bad old days with non molly-coddling parents. Therefore I shouldn’t have been surprised to be gifted an eldest child who refused to eat anything but sun dried tomato dip and biscuits for months on end. She was so determined to eat only a small range of foods that she would refuse to eat anything at all during the 12 hours she was in childcare a couple of days a week. The Maternal and Childcare Nurse was no help at all. I myself grew up being forced to stay at the table to eat boiled beans and peas thanks to which I still cannot stomach them. So I have definitely been one of those parents who asked ‘What do you want for dinner?’ Note: The options never included take-away. But here’s the thing, at the age of 12 she started requesting I buy multigrain bread and not that yucky ‘white stuff’. A year later she requested nuts for snack, then bananas, chicken breasts and so forth. Recently she insisted at 17 that I get her some multivitamin tablets. So like your dog on the couch, the food thing can be one of those areas you end up compromising on.
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Babies and children love to know who the boss is and that the boss is strong but will listen to them and they won’t be ignored. As much as they want to be in charge, they instinctively also know that they would be scared to death to be in charge. When they are in charge, the acting out is unbelievable and life is just plain awful for everyone.
Babies and children also learn from their parents how to become good bosses themselves so parents need to demonstrate integrity, sense of humour, love, fairness and how to set limits.
It’s worked that way for me and my children.
Wishing you lots of lovely times with your bubba, Virginia
PS Same theory has worked with my dogs and they fit into society very well too!
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Have you read Lord of the Flies? Mayhem ensued when no-one was in charge and rules didn’t apply.
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Oh yes! Those poor boys had no idea how to be bosses, they knew it too. Children just aren’t equipped emotionally or intellectually to be in charge. That comes later when they are adults. You have to have a bit of adult maturity to use power wisely and humanely.
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Geez, what is so wrong about getting input from your child about what they would like for dinner???? Better that than spending more time fighting them to eat it than it took you to prepare the meal and having the knock on effect of an awful bedtime…smug parent to be? Absolutely.
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When we work out the menu for the week (I just can’t do the “It’s five thirty and I don’t know what we’re having for dinner tango), I always ask the children for their input. Most of the time it’s “FISH AND CHIPS!” which I ignore, but other times it’s Thai curry or salad rolls and I’m glad to not have to think up meals on my own.
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Totally agree. Always ask for input about the weekly menu. I think it’s good for them too- they suggest take away, I say, “something healthy” & they come up with something different- good for them to be able to identify what food falls into the healthy & not-so-healthy categories. It’s about including them, educating them, but still making the final decision myself.
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it seems clear to me that virginia is referring to the parents who prepare individual meals for each child, or those who make dinner after dinner until their child finally eats something.
i often ask my kids what they want, if i have the ingredients i’ll make it, but whatever ends up being served is what they have to eat,
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I agree, while pets are part of the family, they’re still pets. The family hierarchy is important to me, and it seems that a reversal is pervading in some newer families, which I don’t think is really a good thing.
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Weve never let our dogs on the couch. If they’ve jumped on, they’ve been shooed off. Our cats were thrown out of the baby’s room whenever I was pregnant. We’ve never had problems with our pets and kids.welove the pets, but that’s what they are:pets.
I’ve never asked kids what they want for dinner. They get wha’s cooked or stay hungry. I admit we’ve been lucky. Aside from when they were toddlers, they’ve never been fussy eaters.
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You’ve never had trouble feeding your kids because food is food and it is all pretty delicious if you give it a go. They are not going to starve to death because they are too stubborn to try peas! I have no memories of these mealtime wars when I was a kid. We were served up lots of yummy healthy food and we ate it….Just like kids have eaten the food of their parents for thousands of years! It has all been complicated by placing too much importance on the natural questioning of toddlers! Glad to see there are some sane parents out there still!
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Agree Faybian. I cooked the meals, meat, veges, pasta, fruit, etc. Served it up and the kids sat down and ate it. From the time they ate solids, they were given the same veges as me (mashed up when they were young) and encouraged to try them. If they weren’t hungry, the meal went in the fridge and they ate it before bedtime if they needed to. No biscuits or chips etc to substitute for not eating dinner.
By school age, my three ate anything because they had plenty of opportunity to get used to peas, etc. I just kept serving it up to them and they just kept getting used to different flavours and textures.
Sometimes, I felt a twinge that I was a mean mum, but I knew I wasn’t really.
Mwahahahah
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sometimes I feel mean too…….I guess that is what tough love is though
having said that, my children are happy and well nourished.
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KDot gets what we have most nights. She’s not a great lunch/daytime eater, but has a weetbix mashed with yoghurt and fruit for brekky, and then she usually has whatever she wants of a vegemite sandwich for lunch (so she can feed herself, which she loves). Then whatever we have for dinner, she has a mushed version of. The only thing I don’t give her is chilli. I’m determined to get her liking a wide range of stuff because I have VIVID memories of her uncle and Poppy having screaming matches about peas and pumpkin not being eaten.
She has mushed up stir fry, including onion and garlic, tofu, went nuts on pita bread and garlic dip and hommous last weekend, eats grainy bread, heaps of different fruits. The only stuff I’ve given her that she’s baulked at has been cucumber (completely understandable and I don’t mind in the slightest), avocado on it’s own, and watered down cows milk in her sippy cup. She only likes water in it. Kind of glad about the milk, as it would have been MESSY!
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Im glad I’m not the only one. We grew up in the “clean your plate”days and our cousins were pampered fussy kids who didn’t have to eat their main meal, but would then get dessert, which outraged my sister and I. So I was determined for that to not happen. My sister thought I was a bit hard on the kids at dinner and as a result had to watch my kids eat a whole meal while hers fussed and one have pretty bad encoporesis (soiling) as a result of low fibre intake.
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My children have had cats sleeping in their cots since birth. To us it was no big deal, and the children and cats have always gotten along fine.
(Waits for horror replies)….
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I’m very happy for you that you’ve been lucky enough that your newborn baby was not smothered to death by your cat.
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When was the last time u heard of a cat killing a baby. Google it and I’m sure I won’t find anything. It’s just a stupid myth but I wouldn’t have my cats in my kids beds anyway for hygiene reasons
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I haven’t googled it but my 18 year old daughter has been woken up by the cat sleeping on her face. Why on earth would anyone take that risk? Your baby is warm and comfy and that is all the cat cares about.
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When has that ever actually happened, apart from urban myths?
Verified stories, please.
Cats aren’t stupid.
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http://www.bmj.com/content/285/6347/1051.1.full.pdf+html?sid=a4f5fe6e-df67-4f24-aef4-db0ee16e7e14
British Medical Journal.
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Can you link to something which doesn’t require a £20 payment?
ETA: I googled it and found it elsewhere. That is a letter to the editor, not a scientific study. It talks about how a mother cat moved some kittens into a baby’s cot. No deaths.
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You can actually see a small preview of the article here:
http://www.bmj.com/content/285/6347/1051.1
1. It was published in 1982, and is anectodal correspondence, not an actual journal article.
2. The correspondence in question is of an anecdote of a mother who found her baby blue in a crib, supposedly with a cat on the baby.
3. Those well-versed in the BMJ will note that this is exceptionally flimsy.
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You know that it’s an old wives tale, about cats being witches ‘familiars’… and stealing babies’ breath to use in magic spells?
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Actually, LaLa, yes I am “lucky”. Especially since it is a black cat, and they’re really bad luck. Or so some old wives once told me….
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My baby sleeps with us and our dogs regularly as our dogs have always slept in our bed and I am not going to make the sleep on the floor now he is here. The dogs also sit on the couch, lick my sons feet & come with us to extended family get togethers. Sometimes my little dog sits in the pram with my son when we go for walks.
I don’t see a problem with it if you know and trust your pet, I am more concerned leaving my baby unsupervised with other kids than my dogs : )
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Good on you M for not drastically changing your dog’s place in your family upon the birth of your little one. I’m a bit disillusioned reading so many posts that involve inside dogs suddenly becoming outside dogs, or being a last priority, when kids come along. If that is your intention, please don’t bother getting a companion animal!
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At my in-laws place the hierarchy is the two labradors, then the eldest son (my fiancé), the third son, the second son and then the husband.
The dogs rule the house like nothing else. They sleep inside all year round with doonas in winter. And someone has to be home with them pretty much all the time so they ‘don’t get lonely’. If the family goes out for dinner which is generally no more than two hours the plasma tv in the lounge room is left on the keep them company.
I even got the lecture that no son of hers was ever going to not have a dog as a pet. Oh and it had to be allowed to sleep inside. Doesn’t matter that I have allergies that won’t allow that!
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Sounds like your mother-in-law is a woman who knows how to get what she wants! I would try to learn from her! Hope you don’t have to get a dog that makes you sniffly…
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If and when I get a dog, it will sleep and live outside so it won’t affect my allergies.
(And if you knew my mother in law you would agree she is not someone who has anything to teach me. But that’s another story!)
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oh dear god, labs left inside by themselves?!
*images of broken plasma, ripped sofa, broken plates etc*
that’s one brave family…
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We’ve got German shepherds and we leave them inside. Never come home to anything broken, although I will admit, one of the two sometimes can’t hold on until we get home.
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You are totally right! Sure our babies and children aren’t Dogs but we do need to train them. They need to learn that life is easy and full of natural (not materialistic or culinary) rewards when they follow the leader. One of those rewards is lots of time spent reading books, going to the park, having a laugh with Mum and Dad in the kitchen. These things can happen with HAPPY parents and children who are not having power wars over the smallest things all day. I like to think of myself as the benevolent dictator of my household, and my army of children (3) make me so proud with their manners and kindness. Bring on the revolution!
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Oh I’m so hoping to strike the right balance with this all. I have a three month old so I’m on the verge of starting feeding solids and he’s on the verge of becoming more mobile. He has such a lovely personality already but I truly want to be the loving parent, and not confuse things with the ‘friend’. I want him to feel like he’ll be able to come to me with anything. But I also want to stand fast on food and behavior. I’m already tough love with my cat ( my pRnter thinks it hilarious that I lecture her and try to teach her what she can and can’t do). I guess I’ve got a long road ahead but have good intentions…. I really want E to have good manners and kindness, well done!!!