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US fertility laws 5 terrifying ways the US is trying to control women

 

 

 

 

It’s an interesting time to own a uterus in the United States. The debate between pro-choice and pro-life is as fierce as ever with a plethora of laws proposed and passed in recent months with the ability to have a colossal impact on the reproductive choices available to women and their families. Here are just a few of these pieces of legislature, both proposed and approved. Frightening.

 

“The Wrongful Birth Bill”

- The Bill: Senate Bill 1359, passed in Arizona in early March and headed for the state House, aims to exempt doctors from medical malpractice suits for effectively lying to their patients about the health of the foetus. If a doctor were of the opinion the pregnancy would be terminated after the patient learnt of a congenital abnormality, the doctor would be legally protected if they chose to withhold this information from the patient and her family. Oklahoma and Arizona are considering similar bills.

- The Debate: It’s pretty clear why people are outraged over this. For one it’s not the place of doctors to make this huge decision for their patients. Doctors are meant to allow their patients to make free and informed decisions about their health, not withhold information that could have life changing consequences. Withholding vital foetal health information goes against everything doctors are taught and prevents the family from effectively preparing for life with a child affected by a congenital condition if they were to choose to continue the pregnancy.

- The Facts: Preventing patient informed choice is medical malpractice, pure and simple. The most troubling thing about this proposed law is that politicians are enabling doctors to let their personal views come before their patients’ reproductive rights. They are enabling doctors to LIE.

- What this means for women: Under Senate Bill 1359, a women could carry her child for 9 months and deliver a child with a congenital abnormality after being reassured for the whole pregnancy her baby was healthy. Not only would this be a huge shock and could create trust issues with future doctors, it could be psychologically damaging to the mother, which could impact negatively on the care the disabled child would receive.

 

“The Foetal Pain Bill”

- The Bill: House Bill 954, passed in Georgia initially outlawed abortion after 20 weeks gestation under all circumstances, but has been revised to make an exception to ‘medically futile’ pregnancies and pregnancies dangerous to the mother’s health. No exceptions exist for rape or incest. Nebraska, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Alabama have similar ‘foetal pain’ restrictions and North Carolina restricts abortion after 20 weeks.

- The Debate: People are discussing the circumstances surrounding a ‘medically futile’ pregnancy and the conditions under which the abortion must be performed. There is also debate over what gestational age a foetus can experience pain, and the medical and psychological consequences of carrying an unwanted pregnancy. Dr. George Leach, an Emergency physician, gives his opinion here

- The Facts: The foetus must be diagnosed with a genetic or congenital illness that is incompatible with life for a pregnancy to be considered medically futile, and when aborted the foetus must be delivered alive for the patient and the doctor to avoid legal prosecution. This will most likely mean an unnecessary C-section, as inducing labour can fail early in pregnancy. No exemptions are made for the pregnant woman’s emotional or mental condition either, including suicide attempts. As for the ‘foetal pain’ arguments, scientists believe a foetus will not feel pain until at least 25 weeks, and likely not until 28 weeks gestation.

- What this means for women: Within the media women have been described as ‘barn-yard animals’ in relation to this bill, with individuals claiming that women must continue pregnancies as barn-yard animals do, whether the foetus is dead or alive. The bill will make it difficult for doctors who work with high risk or difficult pregnancies, as they could face jail if an abortion is performed outside of the specified guidelines.

 

“Mandatory ultrasounds for all abortions”

- The Law: In a collection of US states women will be required to have an ultrasound at least 24 hours before terminating a pregnancy, including pregnancies that are incompatible with life. There are a range of conditions in addition to the ultrasound, depending on the state.

- The Debate: the main argument here is that it would be psychologically damaging for a women to hear the foetal heartbeat and the physical description of the foetus, and then have to replay this information over a 24 hour period before being allowed to have an abortion. Many are claiming the law is designed to get the mother to change her mind, and some are saying the law aims to ‘guilt’ potential mothers into continuing their pregnancy.

- The Facts: In Texas it is currently law that a woman must have an ultrasound and listen to the foetal heartbeat prior to being granted an abortion. Alabama has the least severe law – women must have an ultrasound but are given the choice to view the images. It is being proposed in North Carolina that in addition to the mandatory ultrasound, the doctor that would perform the abortion is required to verbally describe the foetus throughout the ultrasound procedure and the woman must certify she has seen the ultrasound images. It is also being proposed that women must then wait 24 hours before being allowed to return for an abortion. However, in some states under certain circumstances women are not obligated to undergo the mandatory ultrasound, for example in the event of a pregnancy resulting from rape. Thankfully, Oklahoma has ruled the ultrasound bill as unconstitutional and Idaho has also thrown it out.

- What this means for women: For some women, having a child is not something that was planned to happen. They may want a child later on, or they may not want any children. Also, different women have different views on congenital abnormalities. But I personally don’t believe having an abortion is a choice that a majority of women make lightly. So to legislate that women must have this obligatory ultrasound and possibly also listen to a description of the foetus, and then have to reflect on this experience before undergoing an already undoubtedly traumatic termination, is insulting to the intelligence of all women. Another scenario this law doesn’t always consider is the necessity of the ultrasound and verbal foetal description in cases where the pregnancy is being terminated as a result of rape or irreversible foetal abnormality – not all states that propose this law show special consideration to those wishing to terminate due to extenuating circumstances.

 

“Personhood USA

- The Law: The Personhood movement believe that human life begins at conception, and the ultimate aim of the movement is to pass a Federal Amendment deeming “legal personhood be granted to all human beings from the beginning of their biological development”.

- The Debate: The controversy surrounding this legislation is divisive and the most heated of all. The Personhood Amendment aims to give a foetus equal rights to life, but many argue that the rights of the mother come before those of the foetus, referencing the well known philosophical dilemma, ‘who came first, the chicken or the egg?’. However a growing group of mainly religious activists are in support of the Personhood Amendment, and claim 50 million ‘victims’ have been killed since Roe v. Wade decriminalized abortion in 1973.

- The Facts: Personhood poses a significant risk to the advances in Reproductive Medicine. If a foetus is granted a right to life from conception, women face a risk that medical decisions could be made about their body without their consent if a medical professional deems the choice in the best interests of the foetus, regardless of the best interests of the mother.

- What this means for women: Under the Personhood Amendment, in America a stillbirth could be considered a homicide. A woman could undergo life-threatening surgery without her consent. Assisted reproductive technology labs could be outlawed. Contraceptives could be a thing of the past. Reproductive Medicine would be completely transformed to revolve around the rights of an accumulation of cells. I know ‘cells’ sounds harsh, but if the Personhood Amendment somehow passes it would be scientifically true. Below are a series of videos with several cases related to the Personhood movement.

 

House Bill 2036 (Arizona) – The “pregnant before you’ve ovulated” Bill

- The Bill: This Bill reviews the gestational age of a foetus, which is to be calculated from the last menstrual period of the pregnant woman. The Bill also bans abortion after 20 weeks of gestation with the exception of for the health of the mother on the belief that the foetus will experience pain from an abortion after this time.

- The Debate: The main points of controversy surrounding HB 2036 are the beliefs that women can be considered pregnant even before conception, and that the Bill actually bans abortion after 18 weeks.

- The Facts: According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, the best practice for estimating gestational age prior to ultrasound is by the calculating the first date of the last menstrual period, so this Bill merely clarifies the legality surrounding the gestational age of the child.

- What this means for women: Women are not being limited to abortions before 18 weeks, but 20 weeks after the first date of the last menstrual period as before.

Is it troubling to know that I am barely skimming the surface of the potentially dangerous and ethically questionable laws being proposed and approved in the U.S?

My poor backspace button has resigned after the bashing received from writing this article – there’s just not enough time to explore all of the craziness here. But first and foremost, the pieces of legislature outlined above take away the freedom of choice that women should be entitled to have regarding their own bodies. That is the main point here.

Wade through all of the numbers and cases and ultimately the thing that’s being lost is reproductive freedom. When was it decided that politicians are entitled to decide if a woman is forced to have a caesarean over a natural birth without her consent? Whose right is it to deprive a woman of an abortion in the face of a life-threatening pregnancy? And why in the name of all things sane in 2012 must a woman be forced to view a propaganda filled website and be subjected to an emotional guilt trip before exercising her right to choose to continue or terminate a pregnancy that would dramatically change her life?

These choices are of a deeply personal nature, and whilst legislature surrounding maternal and foetal health is necessary to protect the rights of both mother and child, the line has to be drawn when the best interests of the mother are simply being ignored. It’s high time politicians stop hawking their personal views and political agendas and wake up to the need for women to be free to make choices regarding their reproductive health. Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath upon graduating from medical school. They claim they will do no harm. It’s clear from the laws outlined above that legislators in the U.S. are making liars of a new wave of doctors.

Amelia is currently completing her Masters in Reproductive Medicine and has a strong interest in women’s health, psychology and reproductive ethics. She is travelling to Nepal in July to learn about maternal and neonatal medicine in a third world community hospital (you can follow her blog here and click here to donate towards medical supplies for the maternity and NICU wards).

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  7. O

    Also, what’s the problem with a doctor lying about the health of a child?

    It’s quite OK for a female to lie about being raped so that she can rape an innocent man. Law in WA specifically states that a female can not be prosecuted for ruining an innocent man’s life by lying about rape. No worries and no penalties.

    Since females well understand the necessity for females to lie then why ccan’t they undeerstand the necessity for others to lie to females?

    Females are idiots aren’t they. Then they wonder why there are few at the top

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  8. O

    I am very much confused.

    I seem to recall the feminist notion that a foetus at 20 weeks is unrecognisable as human.

    As a feminist I’m certain the author would agree that females are naturally nurturing with a natural urge to merge.

    I am also certain she would agree with the Wikipedia version of the definition of feminism – equality for all.

    Then I recall law that states if a man punches a pregnant female at less than 20 weeks in her stomach and she miscarries then he is guilty of manslaughter. Why, when the value of a pregnancy comes down to a matter of convenience to a female. A female’s choice.

    Then we have the notion that the father of the child has absolutely no choice in the matter. He has no right to say that you have the baby and I’ll take care of her forever and all you have to do is pay child support. Nope. We know life isn’t that important.

    We know that females have been screaming to be treated equally for 50 years. To share in all the privileges brought with being a man.

    In every single example above the female has a choice to abort or not. Yet a man has no choices at all. Like Eva Cox did, a man can be tricked into parenthood and he has no say in the matter. Ergo, why should a female have any choice in motherhood? Or is it OK to discriminate against females?

    Why would a law be an insult to a female’s intelligence? If females already know all about it prior to the actual abortion then how can showing them interfere? To me, as a man, her comment is not logical. It does not make sense. In itself it suggests females are incapable. What if a female experiences some anguish? Well we can’t have that. Lack of anguish is certainly more important to any naturally nurturing person than life.

    I’m neither for nor against. I just wish females had the guts to live up to what they say they want. Using risible arguments to promote discrimination against others is no different to what the Nazis did.

    What if a law was brought in that said the father had a right to nurture and raise the baby even if you don’t want to? Would you support that law?

    Should a man have the right to say “I don’t want to be a parent so you are on your own if you choose to have it. Just like females who are artificially inseminated.

    I would have thought that females would be celebrating their win on the road to equality with men. But equality doesn’t seem to be important to females now.

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    • Faybian

      Reading this post and the one above it, I really doubt that you’re a feminist. I even doubt you’re a female (admittedly, you haven’t claimed you are).

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  9. Alexia

    Why do people assume that they should have absolute freedom of choice in this area and the government has no right to intervene? Do I have the choice to murder somebody if I want to? Do I have the choice to not pay taxes? This is not a gender issue. It is a law that is put in place for the good of society as a whole.

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    • Me

      Of course people should have rights over their own body!

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      • Anonymous

        An unborn baby is not their own body…..it is a separate human being.

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        • Me

          It’s not a separate human being at conception at all.

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          • Anonymous

            But where do you draw the line? Is it a separate human being at 3 weeks, at 20 weeks, at 35 weeks? Some babies survive when they are born prematurely at 23 weeks.

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  10. Child's rights?

    This is just a typical example of a “me” focussed culture. People only care about themselves with no thought to the consequences of their actions. What about the rights of the child?

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    • Natalia

      Please stick to only one name when you are leaving comments. Makes the debate more fair for everyone. Thank you.

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  11. Rebecca

    I was conceived from rape. I am a feminist pro-lifer. Please take a look at my website Amelia.

    http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/index.html

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    • ameliastclair

      Thank you for sharing your story via website Rebecca, your mother must be a very strong woman! :)

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  12. Ksenija

    I am absolutely shocked that any of these laws exist.

    Why does the government believe they have a say as to whether a woman terminates her pregnancy or not. Having or not having a child is the responsibility of the parties involved. What has it got to do with governments.

    If a woman terminates her pregancy it’s because she (and possibly her partner) have decided that this is the best option for them at that point in time. No one should be ‘guilted’ into incubating a foetus that they don’t want.

    I am 44 and have NEVER wanted biological children, and luckily for me have never fallen pregnant, however should this not have been the case, I would have no hesitation in aborting a pregnancy.

    I can’t image when a day will come that the rights a ‘cell’ over rule the rights of the carrier (women). That is just ridiculous.

    These laws are going to send abortions undergroud and back into backyards.

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  13. Guest30

    Thank you Amelia for this article and well done on your responses! :)

    A tough subject and one that all women (I believe) are quite passionate about – which is great whether we agree or not.

    I just want to add that some women who do choose to have abortions do not just make those decisions lightly and more to the point they are 150% positive with their decision. From being so, many women don’t experience psychological trauma or ongoing issues.
    This doesn’t make them terrible people – it makes them informed for themselves and confident in their choice.
    I’m not here to argue and I love that there is debate (if there is respectful DEBATE)…go women on being vocal! I may just say though that I do find the pics a little distasteful. It could be perceived as trying to use guilt to make a point just my opinion though!!

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    • ameliastclair

      Thank you Guest30, I appreciate the support :)

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    • Sonja

      Yeah, it probably is a little confronting to look and talk about babies…they are the ones most affected by abortion – for them it is fatal (and painful)…

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      • Anonymous

        Not painful if done before 20 weeks. For the mother, yes, but not the foetus.

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        • Anonymous

          If I kill you during your sleep, you won’t feel any pain…..that makes it ok, right?

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  14. Sarah

    All I can say is I’m thankful I live in Australia where the debate is a lot less heated. I will happily say I’m pro-choice. That doesn’t mean I’m pro-abortion or pro-life. I’m for being able to, in full knowledge (and safety) make a decision that is right for me.

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  15. anon this time

    I always thought I was pro choice until I got pregnant. I was told from age 16 that I was infertile and would never have children. At age 25 I fell pregnant (I used the pill just in case because I really didn’t want children). Although it was an unwanted and totally unplanned pregnancy, I just couldn’t have an abortion. This baby had jumped through so many barriers trying to get here, it just seemed wrong.
    I would never say that it is wrong for people to have an abortion for a definate and good reason but I think there also has to be a level of responsibility when it comes to living in today’s world
    We have so much sexual freedom now, which is fantastic, but It makes me sick to my stomach that some people think that its OK to use abortion to avoid a mistake caused by irresnsibilty on the mothers part.
    I guess there is just so much grey area in this topic and that it would be impossible to have a list of what is ok to have an abortion for and what is not.

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    • Acanberramum

      “Irresponsibility on the mother’s part”?? Surely you realize it takes two to tango?

      Being pro-choice is about supporting a woman’s right to choose, it does not mean a woman has to have an abortion every time she falls unexpectedly pregnant. That, to me, highlights the major difference between people who say they are pro-life and people who say they are pro-choice. Pro-choice isn’t attempting to force a woman into any course of action, pro-life is.

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      • Kirsten

        Actually, the research shows that the majority of women who have abortions do so because they felt they had no other choice. This is not a choice. I see hundreds or prolifers, more even, who are out there trying to create support and coordinate with services to provide women with the support they are needing to be able to feel they can choose to continue their pregnancies. It is the prolifers who are providing the choices. I see many of those same prolifers asking pro’choicers to stand alongside them, and help them to provide support for those alternatives as well. I am yet to meet or hear of one person who calls themself pro’choice step up to that request. Leslie Cannold, one of Australia’s foremost activists for abortion and pro’choicers says in her book that the word prochoice is an illusive word that was coined to give people the false impression they were providing choice. She says that the word prochoice really means proabortion, because abortion rights is what they fight for. They don’t fight for all of the supports to be provided. This is her attitude, and the attitude of all the people representing pro’choicers’ in parliament. Whether or not you agree with her, this is the kind of person standing for you. What are you doing to help provide those alternate choices? Would you stand with a prolifer to provide support to make a REAL choice? If you believe being pro’choice is about supporting a woman’s right to choose, get out there and fight for community supports, fight for the establishment of pregnancy support centers, fight for more user friendly and easily accessible adoption processes, help those who can’t choose between study and their baby to work out how to do both, having somewhere to live and their baby find accommodation, having no support and their baby – be that one person that says ‘I can help you’. These choices are what prolifers offer. They are not all stereotypically standing with signs and pictures outside parliament for abortion clinics. Go and work with these people, and help provide choice!

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        • Faybian

          How do you know that we all don’t?

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          • Kirsten

            I believe what I said was that I am yet to come across someone who does. If you do, Great! Tell me about it, I’d love to hear! And tell me how to inspire others who call themself pro’choice’ to work alongside me and other prolifers in providing real options for women.

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            • Faybian

              I work for the govt and as part of my job, work with many young and/or high risk parents. We provide extended support and referral to support agencies as needed. I really enjoy seeing when parents overcome obstacles to be the best they can be, but sometimes that doesn’t involve bringing more children into the world. Yes, contraceptive education features heavily in our dealings with these parents to try to avoid abortions in the first place. Unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water etc….

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        • Sonja

          Well said Kirsten!

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        • Anonymous

          finally, someone who gets it. thank you.
          the thing that bothers me the most is pro-lifers being called “anti-choice”

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    • Nulligravida

      “…that it would be impossible to have a list of what is ok to have an abortion for and what is not.”

      Compulsory pregnancy and birth should not be a punishment for having sex.

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      • afd

        Not sure where I’m going with this, but let’s explore…

        Thinking about when my daughter grazes her knee while running from me when I tell her to stay with me or come back, because she’s so frantic she trips over while giving me “the look”.

        Did I cause the grazed knee? No. Would I wish it on her, or force her to suffer that pain, if she were lucky enough to escape this result? Absolutely not!

        But am I happy to say something, at the right time, like “See? if you hadn’t been running from me, that wouldn’t have happened”? Yes! (And before you think I’m heartless, yes, I do wait until she’s started yakking on about nearby pigeons, or otherwise proven she’s no longer in shock or pain, or seriously hurt.)

        So can we apply this here? I think we can, to a limited extent. Fact is, any act of sexual intercourse can result in pregnancy, and each competent adult is responsible to consider that possible outcome, and decide whether or not to have sex in the light of that consideration, IMO. It’s no more a punishment than a grazed knee is. It’s just cause and effect.

        On the other hand, having to deal with the life-long consequences of an unintended pregnancy is a much bigger deal than a grazed knee, so I would *not* be saying “I told you so.” I consider it far more useful to ask those deciding to have sex to think twice, and think *really* carefully. It is *not* a purely pleasurable game, free of moral responsibility, and possible consequences. And IMO, it should not be that,no matter how much faith, warranted or otherwise, you have in your contraception. I personally *always* asked myself, “Yes, but what if…?”, from the moment I lost my virginity, every month I decided sex was OK. True, this was not a complicated thiing to do for me, since I lost my virgiity after marriage, and my husband and I *both* decided on this approach… whether avoiding or open to pregnancy. Perhaps it’s different when life’s more complicated than that…

        I guess I’m just thinking aloud. It’s hard to come to conclusions. For that reason, I probably am against restrictive legislation in this area. There’s just too much grey area! Leave it to individuals to make compassionate decisions, rather than legislating across the board and denying the intelligence and compassion of those closest to the issue.

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  16. Katmag

    Now people have started putting their pics of kids on here with their ‘pro life’ slogans on there maybe I should post a picture of my beautiful but very deformed terminated baby along with a copy of my ultrasound report detailing all the internal abnormalities. I have 3 beautiful living children and I understand the sanctity of life but if you live long enough you are sometimes faced with situations that will turn everything you thought you believed on its head, posting pictures of perfectly healthy children ignores the plight of people like me. Frankly in deciding to end my pregnancy the persons pain I was thinking about was my babies and not my own. Before I am attacked by those who think it is wrong to terminate when there is something wrong with the baby should know that I have 2 children who have a non life threatening disability inherited from their Dad who I would never have aborted unfortunately this scenario was very different.

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    • Jackie

      That must have been so hard, I remember waiting for amnio results when pregnant with my 4th, I knew if there was something wrong I would abort. Knowing families living with disabled children the trauma & on-going pain is unbelievable. Yours was not a decision made lightly.

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      • Sonja

        Isn’t the solution to provide and access support for these families and individuals with disabilities? We are rightly applauding the recent announcement of a Disabilities Insurance Scheme in Australia (which is overdue), but believe that those with deformities and disabilities have no place in our society and that killing them in the womb is warranted and justified – how offensive again to those of us with disabilities – not to mention their families… The hypocrisy again…

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        • astrochicky

          How offensive that you think it’s your right to decide what’s right for another woman….

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  17. K

    I think we all agree here that deciding to have a baby and then killing it after it’s born because it’s the wrong gender is wrong on all counts. Or are you suggesting otherwise? The difference between our views otherwise is that I respect your views and right to make your own decisions about your life, but you dont think other women should have their own views if they are different to yours. And if you don’t think the debate in the US is being fanned by the Church, then you are being very naive. And I agree, for those men who have the decision taken away from them as to whether they wish to be a dad it IS heartbreaking. Just like it is if a woman can’t decide for herself.

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    • K

      This was an edited reply to Sonja’s response below.

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  18. LellaK

    Right, I’m putting everything here – because I actually need to do work today and doing it whilst angry and frustrated doesn’t work (for an ironic twist, i work with children)

    To those agreeing with the above laws and putting their case forward – fine – i respect your opinions and the choices YOU make with your life.
    Now respect mine – If i was to get pregnant now, I would consider terminating. I am just getting settled in my life, finishing my masters and am wanting to see the world. I have a wonderful partner, good family and a secure job. Call me selfish and inhumane, but I do not want a baby. To me, at this stage, it is not part of my plans. And guess what? I am ALLOWED to have life plans. I am allowed to choose what I want to do. We are not breeding machines anymore – we do not have to reproduce to preserve our bloodline like other species. We have evolved so much that it is not our main focus of life anymore. So why not give me a choice? TO YOU – a 6 week old fetus is a life. To me, it is a choice i would make – and not always lightly.

    You say you are pro life and pro women – but you are denying me, one of your own, MY choice.

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    • Sonja

      “Breeding machines”…that is a very sad description of motherhood, and quite franky offensive…certainly not one that promotes “choice” and feminism!
      I withdrew from my Masters course, when i become pregnant (and had morning sickness). Ill return to my study and career, with our lives enriched for having our 2 year old, Miss C!
      “Refuse to Choose!” (Feminists for Life).

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      • LellaK

        I didnt use it as a description of motherhood and if thats how it was interpreted then i apologise – i meant in other species as a mechanism for species survival – we do not have to be breeding machines

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        • Sonja

          No better than “Breeding machines”. Mothers and babies are now no more significant than a mere “species”… I think any mother would have issues with the heartlessness of those descriptions. The angel pulling my hand for the keyboard at this moment deserves to be valued, as does my wonderful role as a Mum. Happy Mother’s Day to all!!!

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      • astrochicky

        I think you are taking offence when none was offered….

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    • Kirsten

      You haven’t said one thing there, that you want to do with your life, that you couldn’t do with a baby? In all of those scenarios it would come down to a matter of convenience, and putting your desires before that of your child’s, wouldn’t you agree?

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      • astrochicky

        Yes. And that is completely her choice.

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    • ameliastclair

      Well said, LellaK :)

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  19. K

    Wow. Part of me can’t believe I am reading this debate here. I have never had an abortion. But I have dear friends and colleagues who have. Not because they’re selfish, stupid, or uninformed. But for as many different reasons as there are pregnancies, and they were the right decision for them. Not easy but right. What disturbs me most about this legislation is that it interpretations of Christianity are the only way to live spiritually, and that these interpretations must be forced on all women. And that’s the crux isn’t it? It’s blaming and controlling women’s lives. Where are the men in this legislation (apart from the ones drafting it)? It takes a man to create a baby too, yet there is no mention of imposing anything on the man who created the pregnancy too. Let the women be dictated to and told what they may want is wrong while men can do whatever they choose for their lives. If its wrong to procreate without the intention of having a baby than why don’t we legislate that all men are neutered until in wedlock and ready for kids? If every fertilized egg is a person who is murdered if aborted, then are we killing people when sperm is, shall we say, tossed away?

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    • Sonja

      Interesting that it is pro aborts who bring God and Church into any discussion about abortion. Generalising? I repeat that abortion is a human rights issue! No, abortion is not an easy decision, and it is not right that any woman should feel compelled to “choose” abortion and not have access to supports required to embrace motherhood…and it is not right that babies must die up until birth, and after!! 200,000,000 (U.N stats) baby girls are missing in China and India (and also parts of America) from sex selection abortions and murder. As for men, can you not see that abortion is an easy “out” for many. For others it is heartbreaking!

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      • K

        I think we all agree here that deciding to have a baby and then killing it after it’s born because it’s the wrong gender is wrong on all counts. Or are you suggesting otherwise? The difference between our views otherwise is that I respect your views and right to make your own decisions about your life, but you dont think other women should have their own views if they are different to yours. And if you don’t think the debate in the US is being fanned by the Church, then you are being very naive.

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  20. Anon

    It’s about choice.
    If it is not your womb you don’t get a say over the decision a woman makes.
    If you believe so strongly in a woman not having a choice over abortion, what are you doing to help a woman with no choice pick up the pieces over the consequences of having that child when she cannot provide/care/look after it?
    I’ll bet that you’re not.
    I see the consequences of lack of choice, the foster care, the children being looked after in shared housing – where are you?

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    • Sonja

      Thanks for asking. I agree with you that being pro life means we need to offer women better choices and support. Please do not assume that we are doing nothing. There are fantastic pregnancy support centres offering practical and emotional support for women, there are just not enough of them and are not funded and resourced to run the hours abortion clinics do. Personally, I liase with a number of these organisations and rally for donations for them. I personally am also currently stocking up on baby products (nappies, pregnancy tests, baby clothes etc) to donate in one big hit. Our current e-news is asking supporters to donate this Mother’s Day (how better to celebrate mothers day than to donate to Mums in need). I have also personally just contacted an agent for a supermarket that has gone into liquidation to see if we might have the baby products for a pregnancy support centre. Our organisation also promotes another organisation, Real Choices Australia, offering training to be the first point of contact for women facing crisis pregnancies … But there is still so much more we can do to offer real choice to women in need. My husband and I have also put our names down for foster care (when my 2 year old is a little older) and with an Early Childhood degree, I look forward to opening my home to these kids and would love another house to offer accommodation to pregnant teens and women – watch this space! Happy to hear any other suggestions you might have :) PS I cant see how killing a baby is a solution to a potentially challenging life for the child – which may in fact, if given a shot at life, go on to have a wonderful life (Oprah Winfrey) …?? We need solutions, not just the problems – and if abortion is the best we can do, we are indeed failing women.

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      • ameliastclair

        Sonja that sounds lovely of you – are you aware of projects like this in the US where the laws I have mentioned are being proposed?

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    • Ana

      Sooo… my gun my choice? My finger to pull the trigger my choice?

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  21. thatgirlfiona

    Eurgh. Who called in all the right-wings? Mamamia is usually a site for WOMEN, supporting WOMEN’s RIGHTS. I wish I could be bothered typing up all the reasons why women should have choices. But chances are, even if I did, no one who claims to be ‘Pro-life’ would even care.

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    • Kirsten

      Half of all babies are females (roughly half anyway). Are you fighting for their rights?

      Mamamia is open to all people to comment, of all opinions. What’s the point of only ever talking to like minded people? You never learn the truth about what the other side are trying to achieve, only (usually) inaccurate speculation about them. To be challenged in your beliefs is healthy.

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    • Sonja

      Yes, we wouldn’t want to extend free speech to anyone who values uncompromisingly values life in the womb and motherhood. Move over, we pro life feminists have been silent for too long!!

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    • sonja couroupis

      That really depends on how you define “women’s rights”, Fiona.
      Most women abort because they feel they have “no choice”. Are you aware of stats on suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, relationship breakdown etc for women post abortion? Check out unchoice.com (referenced to psych journals etc). Women deserve better than abortion (not to mention their babies)!!

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      • guest

        “most women abort because they feel they have “no choice”? Ugh, the point is they DO have a choice. WHat a condascending thing to say. WHat about the stats on women who keep children they do not want and are unable to care for in terms of drinking, smoking drug taking during their pregnancies, and after the baby is born?

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        • Sonja

          So drinking and smoking during and after pregnancy is worse for a baby than killing it…??!! I find those warnings on cigarette packets about smoking in pregnancy odd, considering our society and health departments endorse killing babies in the womb. Go figure…More inconsistency!

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          • Anonymous

            I hardly think ANYONE endorsed “killing babies in the womb”. I’m sure everyone would rather there weren’t any unwanted or unviable pregnancies so that this was not even an issue.

            And yes, I would argue smoking and drinking while pregnant are worse than abortion. Have you ever seen a child with foetal alcohol syndrome? There are things worse than death.

            I realise this is an emotional topic for a lot of people, but you should calm down. By all means you can debate your point of few. Nothing wrong with being pro-life, but there is no need to be a complete twat about it.

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        • Sonja

          Renowned feminist Germaine Greer said that “Abortion is the last non choice in a long list of non choices!”

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      • Anonymous

        “Most women abort because they feel they have “no choice”.”

        Where are you getting this from? Is there some study or at very least some basic statistics backing this up. I know of several women who have had aortions (and probably know a lot more who have not shared this information with me) and every single one of them knew they had a choice. They CHOSE not to have a child at that point in time. Not all were young with no support. Some already had children in a loving family. Their reason for abortions varied but they knew they had a choice.

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    • Deb

      A site for women ‘thatgirlfiona’ or only a certain type of woman.. the type who agrees with you? If the women here truly espouse women’s rights then perhaps they need to respect the rights of all women to hold and express their different opinions.

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  22. Sonja Couroupis

    I am genuinely surprised at the incorrect information in this article. Happy to get a friend, Ed Hanks, from the U.S who is driving the Personhood legislation to explain it to you …as well as the flaws in your arguments.
    Your arguements support the abortion industry’s failure to apply standard medical protocol…why is abortion an exception to regulations of informed consent.
    They defy science which show that a baby in the womb is indeed a person (seperate human DNA) and life begins at conception.
    It seems you are regressing to days before advanced ultrasound technology and before high standards of medicine and regulation.

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    • Sonja Couroupis

      Sorry for terrible spelling in that comment…it’s been a long day.

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    • ameliastclair

      Hi Sonja, thanks for your comment. If you could tell your friend involved with the Personhood legislation I would absolutely love to hear from them, that would be great! The information I got for this post was taken in part from the Personhood USA website (see the link above) so would be really eager for any additional information your friend could provide. I can only write about information I have so am more than willing to learn more! :)

      In reference to your comment about a baby in the womb being person, I am aware that a foetus has its own DNA, but some women do not recognize a foetus as a life until a certain time. For example, you recognize life beginning at conception. Others recognize life at 12 weeks, 20 weeks , 27 weeks, birth… the topic has been (and will be) discussed for centuries. I doubt we as people will ever come to a consensus on this and so, we each have our own thoughts.

      Thanks again

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      • Sonja

        I have asked him if he has time to pop in and comment…thanks :)
        Wouldn’t it make more sense to stop the guessing about when life begins and support science, which tells us that it is at conception?!
        If it isnt a baby, you aren’t pregnant.
        The inconsistencies of a pro abortion position are numerous – for example, if it is not a life at say…6 weeks…then how do you comfort a mother who loses her baby from miscarriage at this stage? As mothers, I dont think any of us actually believe it isnt a life – and we grieve the loss of babies at any stage, from miscarriage, abortion and stillbirth.
        I note that the article objects to setting a cut off date for abortion…and yet babies of similar ages (24 weeks plus) fight for their lives when born prematurely in the very same hospital…so is only a life when it is wanted??!!
        Most babies that are aborted are in fact wanted, but women feel they have “no choice” due to their circumstances. “Choice” is rhetoric. “A woman chooses abortion like a trapped animal gnaws off its leg”…Women deserve better!
        I notice the post of “Massages for Kindy kids”…(which is lovely), but alongside the heading for that article is this one, promoting open slather abortion that inflicts the most incredible pain on an unborn baby!!?? Seriously…?
        It would seem that many in our society do not stop to think these issues through. The abortion industry thrives on the heartache of women, many of whom are coerced by the expectations of partners, friends, parents, and circumstances.
        A true feminist would not endorse this!

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      • MisChief

        And this is my own belief. A baby is not a baby until it is wanted, prior to that they are just cells, sorry if it sounds so callous, but they just happen to be cells that will go on to produce a foetus.

        And being Pro choice does not mean I am Pro death, it just means I am pro choice and would still not wish having to make that choice on anyone. But if a woman finds herself in a situation where she is pregnant and chooses not to go through with it, that’s her choice.

        For someone who was pregnant and wanted the baby and then sadly miscarried, then yes i would also understand their pain. Because they’ve lost a wanted baby.

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        • ameliastclair

          Perfect response IMO, MisChief

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          • Deb

            How terribly sad that you would consider a statement that ‘a baby is not a baby until it is wanted’ as a perfect response. I wonder if the writer, of these words, or you consider the ‘wanted’ but aborted baby a baby? Teh one whose mother didn’t really want to make that particular choice but felt like she didn’t have another option?

            Viable healthy babies are being aborted in our country. Women are being forced to choose between unsupportive husbands or families, or educational institutions or workplaces.. and their babies. Thousands of couples spend years on adoption waiting lists to fulfil their dream of being parents.

            And we still have people suggesting that a person’s ‘wantedness’ is what gives them value.

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            • ameliastclair

              Deb, some women do not want to be pregnant, pure and simple, and some women do. My heart breaks for women that can’t fall pregnant when they truly want to, but I would feel equally sad for a woman that has fallen pregnant and does not wish to continue the pregnancy but has to out of fear of legal repercussions. Please understand that other people have different views to yours and try to respect those views.

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            • Deb

              Amelia, I have not in any way been disrespectful in my comments. I have merely disagreed with some. It seems that some different opinions are labelled disrespect and others are not. I continue to believe that a statement that ‘a baby is not a baby unless it is wanted’ is a very concerning and terribly sad value. It is this kind of value that has often been applied to women over the decades and that we would argue strongly against. ‘a woman is not worthy is she doesn’t…look right, work, have children, etc etc . I don’t believe there is either a rational or emotional basis for ascribing value to the unborn based on wantedness. This is like the arguments some have proposed that abortions are okay only up to a certain time or for particular reasons, but nobody wants to clearly articulate what their boundaries are because as soon as you do, you are removing ‘choice’. Which, whilst I argue it actually rarely truly exists, is used as the whole basis of arguing for abortion. Remember that choice can only exist between 2 genuine and supported options. For many women the ‘choice’ to continue a pregnancy is not experienced as a viable one.

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    • Acanberramum

      I understand what you are getting at – though I’m afraid that I don’t agree with your conclusions – but I’m not sure that the fact that a fetus contains “separate DNA” is an appropriate test for establishing “personhood”. Are identical twins the same person? They have identical DNA. And every human cell contains a complete set of the ‘owner’s’ DNA, I assume that you are not suggesting that a blood cell is a person, nor a skin cell? I guess my point is that the “separate DNA” test leads to some ridiculous conclusions, and that a person is clearly more than just it’s DNA.

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      • Kirsten

        Yes, a blood cell contains its own DNA, but not different DNA from the person it comes from. A baby has its own unique DNA, that is completely separate from the mothers and unrepeatable. Yes, identical twins share DNA, as two separate people, and separate babies once again from their mother.

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        • Acanberramum

          I think you are choosing to ignore the point – a person is more than just DNA.

          Separate DNA doesn’t make something a person, just as identical DNA doesn’t make something part of the same person (e.g. Identical twins). Indeed, physical separation isn’t necessary either – what about the case of conjoined twins who share both DNA and a body (or parts of a body)?

          You may believe that sex cells that have combined and are sitting in a Petrie dish, with their own unique DNA (separate from both the mother’s and the father’s DNA) is a person, but I don’t – in fact, I would say that, at that point, those cells share almost none of the characteristics that I believe make something a person.

          My point is, and you may choose to ignore it if you wish, is that determining “personhood” is far, far more complex than looking at whether something has “separate DNA”.

          The idea that “unique DNA = person” from the instant sex cells combine is a belief, not a scientific fact.

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          • Ana

            DNA alone does not make a person, even trees have DNA in their cells. The point is that the DNA separates one item from another. So, when a human is created it carries it’s own genetic blueprint (DNA) which indicates its individuality from another person. True traits of ‘personhood’ don’t necessarily appear in their complete form until many years after birth. Does that make them any less a person?

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            • Acanberramum

              I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me? I just don’t think there is a neat, objective, scientific test that determines “personhood” despite what Sonja and Kirtsen seem to be suggesting. Somewhat ironically, the test that Sonja seems to suggest is scientific clearly involves beliefs and judgements about what constitutes life – those beliefs and judgements are not scientific.

              Is it about unique DNA: what about identical twins? Separate body: what about conjoined twins? The ability to live unassisted: What about a person who is intubated? The ability to think: what about someone with severe brain damage? The potential to achieve “personhood”: what about cells in a Petrie dish?

              Some people think it’s about DNA, some about traits, some about “soul”, some about thought, some about “potential” and some about “life” – others think its a complex combination of all of the above.

              It’s not neat, it involves beliefs, moral stances, judgements, science, medicine and, for some, leaps of faith – to suggest that it is all about DNA, and that this is the single objective criterion, leads to nonsensical and contradictory conclusions.

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          • Acanberramum

            But the point is that you are applying judgements, beliefs and your own values to use a scientific fact to support an unscientific conclusion. It is a scientific fact that an embryo has unique DNA, which is different to its mother. It is not a scientific fact that that unique DNA makes that embryo a person. You are free to believe that, but the leap from unique DNA to person is a belief, it is not science.

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  23. Kirsten

    Before you consider deleting my comment again, please consider this. Is there any point to posting on a public blog, to initiate debate, if you are going to remove the right to freedom of speech and negate any valid, intellectual attempt at engaging in respectful conversation? If you will not allow people to have opposing opinions, why foray into the public arena?

    If you are going to delete this again, I would like it outlined to me where it is that you believe I have been in breach of your posting regulations please.

    Original conversation that was previously deleted, but has a right to be said:

    Kirsten:

    Wrongful birth bill – women should be told the truth about their foetus. Ultrasound bill – women should not be told the truth about their foetus.

    Do you even know how contradictory and hypocritical you are???

    Ameliastclair:

    Hi Kirsten,

    Thank you for your comment. Women should be told the truth about their foetus (wrongfull birth bill) so they can make informed decisions about their bodies and their future. They shouldn’t be subjected to an ultrasound that will guilt them into gestating and giving birth to a child they don’t wish to have (ultrasound bill) when they are already aware of the truth of the condition of the foetus from other forms of testing (e.g. genetic testing)

    Does that clarify it for you? No need to be rude.

    Amelia

    Kirsten:

    Hi Amelia,

    I was not being rude, I was simply pointing out the inconsistencies in your article. I recognise it is difficult to hear tone in the written word. For what it’s worth, here are a few responses and issues with your opinion piece….

    Wrongful Birth Bill:
    “Doctors are meant to allow their patients to make free and informed decisions about their health, not withhold information that could have life changing consequences.” Why are you not jumping up and down to ensure that Dr’s don’t withhold the vital information about the potential effects and outcomes of abortion and abortion procedures? There are no guidelines surrounding informed consent for abortion.
    “They are enabling doctors to LIE.” They are doing this now, by not having laws surrounding informed consent for those women seeking abortion. Women do not have to be told about the development of their unborn babies, what the procedure entails, and how they will be affected mentally and physically in the long run. And evidence based research shows they WILL be adversely effected by abortion.
    “it could be psychologically damaging to the mother,” Abortion is HIGHLY likely to be psychologically damaging to the mother….as research shows.

    Foetal Pain Bill:
    “No exemptions are made for the pregnant woman’s emotional or mental condition either, including suicide attempts.” Never mind the 155% increased risk of suicidal behaviour in women who undergo abortion……
    “Within the media women have been described as ‘barn-yard animals’ in relation to this bill,” speaking of animals……when scientific tests are done on unborn animal foetuses, for example a chicken in an egg, legally it is required to give that unborn animal pain relief. Yet we don’t afford human babies the same dignity?

    Mandatory Ultrasounds before Abortion:
    “the main argument here is that it would be psychologically damaging for a women to hear the foetal heartbeat and the physical description of the foetus, ” It is proven that women who have abortion are 81% more likely to suffer from psychological harm and harmful behaviour. Is there evidence that viewing an ultrasound causes psychological problem rather than the subsequent abortion being the cause?
    “So to legislate that women must have this obligatory ultrasound and possibly also listen to a description of the foetus, and then have to reflect on this experience before undergoing an already undoubtedly traumatic termination, is insulting to the intelligence of all women. Another scenario this law doesn’t always consider is the necessity of the ultrasound and verbal foetal description in cases where the pregnancy is being terminated as a result of rape” Why is traumatic if ‘it isn’t a baby’? Knowing the foetal development is not going to make it less traumatic, the facts are still the same. And in the case of rape, the baby is still a baby, it isn’t any different just because of the circumstances of its conception.

    Personhood USA:
    “The Personhood movement believe that human life begins at conception, and the ultimate aim of the movement is to pass a Federal Amendment deeming “legal personhood be granted to all human beings from the beginning of their biological development”.” Actually, SCIENCE believes that human life begins at conception….
    “If a foetus is granted a right to life from conception, women face a risk that medical decisions could be made about their body without their consent if a medical professional deems the choice in the best interests of the foetus, regardless of the best interests of the mother. ” Heaven forbid our human babies may be considered to have rights…..to be alive…..
    “Under the Personhood Amendment, in America a stillbirth could be considered a homicide. ” This does NOT sound plausible to me. It’s very far reaching. Are there any examples of this from history? Because abortion wasn’t always legal….
    “Contraceptives could be a thing of the past. ” This may have merit, especially if they then have to admit that hormonal contraceptives cause abortion, which is exactly how they work….
    “Reproductive Medicine would be completely transformed to revolve around the rights of an accumulation of cells.” Really? We’re going to do this argument again? Science!!! When was the last time you saw an ultrasound of a 9 week gestation baby? Because that is the typical gestational age that abortions take place. It is ANYTHING but a ‘bunch of cells’, and to say so is to perpetuate the lie that women are told in abortion clinics on a daily basis.

    House Bill:
    This seems kind of moot…..there is precious little difference between an 18 week gestation baby and a 20 week gestation baby.

    Hope that gives you (and others) some friendly food for thought.

    Kirsten

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    • Ana

      Thank-you!

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    • Sonja Couroupis

      Hit the nail on the head there, Kirsten.

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    • Seahorse

      Quite agree with you on the “accumulation of cells” point. It’s called a foetus for a reason. Not just an embryo, a foetus.

      If someone else killed your late-term foetus (say a drunk driver in car accident), I’m sure you’d feel that your baby very much deserved personhood. I think there was a legal case in Australia about this last year?

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      • Kirsten

        There have been several incidences in recent years here in Victoria where a pregnant mother has been killed in a motor vehicle crash and both have died. There was also one where the mother was hit by a car and her baby died but she survived. In all cases the unborn baby has been counted as part of the official Victorian road toll. Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that this should be the case, I also find it the height of hypocrisy of our government in this state that in 2008 they voted in the most extreme and liberal abortion laws in all of western society.

        In this state of Victoria, Australia, it is legal to have an abortion, on demand, up until the day of birth. Government statistics show that more than half of the annual late term abortions done here are for psychosocial reason (so on healthy babies and healthy mothers).

        Why would the government allow this to take place, the deaths of healthy babies for social reasons, and not consider them to be people? yet count babies who die at the same gestational age in their official road toll statistics?

        There are many more atrocities associated with our liberal abortion laws, for which all proffered amendments were rejected. It’s like some kind of sinister joke really.

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        • Deb

          Kirsten, your stats are good. The 2008 late term (post 20 week) abortion figures are that of 328 late term abortions, 178 (more than half) were for psychosocial reasons. Psychosocial abortions are consistently more than 50% of late term abortions across all states that collect the stats.

          I’ve heard it argued that a woman does not seek the death of a baby when she has an abortion, she seeks the end of her pregnancy. If that is the case the majority of these late term abortions could have produced a live baby and ended the pregnancy at the same time.

          It is appalling that the best we see fit to offer women in difficult circumstances is a surgical solution to their ‘problem’. Especially when that ‘problem’ often isn’t their unborn at all, but the circumstances the woman is living in, or the people around her who are unsupportive. It really is time we started arguing for greater protections of women, and more options, instead of more abortion.

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          • Faybian

            I love how all you like minded types are all agreeing with each other and yet one of you complained that you didn’t get any new information (or some such) if you only got opinions that agreed with each other. Oh the irony….

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            • Kirsten

              And ‘all you’ are agreeing with each other too. I believe it was me who made the comment you are referring to. There is no problem on agreeing with each other on either side of the debate, but what is the point in only ever engaging in debate about an issue with like minded people was what I was getting at. People on each side of the debate will concur with each other, but learning to respectfully engage and listen to the other side, responding to points is important. The comment I had made was in regard to someone asking what all the ‘right-wings’ were doing here on a site where it was implied ‘right-wings’ do not belong. Nothing valuable was added to the debate. Make sense?

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        • ameliastclair

          But it does, Sonja! Maybe not for you, but it does for other women. For example, a woman who lost her pregnancy in a car accident would be devastated because she would recognise the pregnancy as creating a little person that she would want in her life; a woman who chooses to terminate her pregnancy may not have this same recognition for her own pregnancy, she could not recognise the foetus as a life. Whilst I respect that you and others on this thread recognise all stages of pregnancy as another life, this is not the case for everyone. The only ask here is that you respect that too? :)

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          • Deb

            Amelia.. pregnancy is a state of being.. not a ‘thing’ that one can lose, whether wanted or not. Women grieve the loss of their unborn children.. not the loss of their pregnancy. There are people who would argue that a born baby is not a ‘life’ or a ‘person’ either. How do we determine what life is if not scientifically? If individuals are allowed to make personal subjective decisions about what constitutes life, without any reference to science, medicine, or even other social values, where do we draw the line?

            Who decides what should or can be valued? If a woman is allowed to ‘choose’ abortion right up until birth, as is the case in Victoria, what maks her the expert on whether her unborn is a life the day before birth but not the day after. There is no biological difference in the child. Is it becasue someone else can see it that it becomes life?

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    • ameliastclair

      Hi Kirsten,

      I interpreted “Do you even know how contradictory and hypocritical you are???” as rude, my apologies if this is not how it was intended? Your comment was deleted as it violated the comment guidelines by coming across as disrespectful, not because of a difference of opinion, so clearly I am not the only one who thought you came across as rude. Please accept my apologies if this was a miscommunication. As I have already said, earlier posts also disagree with the theme of the article but remain on the site because the responses are respectful.

      Thank you for clarifying your points. Please see my responses below:

      - “They are doing this now, by not having laws surrounding informed consent for those women seeking abortion. Women do not have to be told about the development of their unborn babies, what the procedure entails, and how they will be affected mentally and physically in the long run. And evidence based research shows they WILL be adversely effected by abortion.” and “Abortion is HIGHLY likely to be psychologically damaging to the mother….as research shows.” –> I agree with you, abortion IS psychologically damaging, no-one is debating that. I’m sure there are very few women who skip out of an abortion clinic. But so too would be continuing a pregnancy that was unwanted because the mother had no choice, so too would be raising a child in a household that is ill-eqipped to meet their needs (be the household lacking in emotional or financial support, or both), so too would be growing up in foster care because your mother didn’t feel she could cope and left. Nothing about unplanned pregnancy is a bunch of roses, but at least women should be allowed a choice in their reproductive future.

      - “Never mind the 155% increased risk of suicidal behaviour in women who undergo abortion……” –> Suicidal ideation is not restricted to women who have had an abortion – many women who have never had an abortion attempt suicide for a variety of reasons. The increased risk of suicidal behaviour in women who have experienced an abortion may not be directly attributed to the abortion itself. I would be interested to read research that is a fair and representative population of women that have had abortions and to find the percentage of women that regret their abortion and the percentage that don’t, as I’m sure you would be too. To my knowledge such research does not exist, so we can make no claims about the impacts of abortion on suicidal behaviour.

      - “It is proven that women who have abortion are 81% more likely to suffer from psychological harm and harmful behaviour. Is there evidence that viewing an ultrasound causes psychological problem rather than the subsequent abortion being the cause?” and “why is traumatic if ‘it isn’t a baby’? Knowing the foetal development is not going to make it less traumatic, the facts are still the same. And in the case of rape, the baby is still a baby, it isn’t any different just because of the circumstances of its conception” –> In regards to your first point, where did you find this statistic? I’d be interested to know the data population. In regards to your second point, it could make an already distressing situation much more distressing, because of feelings of guilt. A woman could be terminating her pregnancy for a number of reasons e.g. because she has made the choice that continuing the pregnancy would not be in the best interests of the potential child or herself, which would be a terribly hard decision for anyone to make. To have a descriptive ultrasound would add unnecessary emotional burden. Perhaps a solution to both of our concerns here would be to suggest a more uniform process of informed choice in relation to termination? Once a woman has met certain criteria to ensure she is informed about all options available to her once discovering she is pregnant, she is entitled to make a choice free from further persuasion attempts – what are your thoughts on this?

      - Personhood USA points: for this I direct you to the Personhood USA website.

      - House Bill: I included this piece to clarify some misconceptions – many people are up in arms because they believed abortion laws would be changed to 18 weeks instead of 20 weeks (which is untrue).

      Thank you for your comments, food for thought is always welcome! Reproductive health topics are always going to stir people up but as long as posts are respectful they are welcome :)

      Amelia

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      • Kirsten

        Hi Amelia,

        First of all, thanks for engaging in conversation on these topics, as many authors do not.

        For ease of replying, and to reduce confusion with copying quotes etc., I will respond to your points numbering them 1, 2 and 3 for the 3 main paragraphs you have covered in your response.

        1.
        Abortion is a surgical solution to a social problem. I cannot think of another example in society, where a social problem is resolved through surgery. The ill-equipped households, lack of supports, feelings of not coping that you outlined, can all be addressed already in one way or another. There seems to be a problem, particularly in Australia but undoubtedly in your country as well, with coordinating all of the available services in order for them to be easily accessible to women in need. In the US, there are countless pregnancy support centres who, whilst they won’t refer for abortion (and really, why do they need to), they will offer and liaise with services that will fulfill the other social needs of women to be able to continue their pregnancies not just to the point of ‘oh you’ve have the baby now you’re on your own’, but well into parenthood and helping them with issues along the path of raising those babies into adults. It seems to me, in my experience, that those who are pro’choice’ are quite happy to actively fight for abortion access, but will not work with, for or alongside of people with a life philosophy to provide those other supports that are needed in order to provide women with REAL options. To have an abortion because they had no support to choose the alternative, is really not a choice at all. It is a rhetoric.

        2.
        You are right. Suicidal ideation is not restricted to women who have had an abortion. But, research shows that women who have previously had any mental health issues are significantly more likely to suffer from mental health problems post-abortively than women who have never had mental health problems. This statistic is where I fail to understand the ideology of providing a woman with an abortion (early or late term) because to continue the pregnancy would cause her mental problems, when in fact the opposite is true. There was a study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry last year, that compared the mental health outcomes of over 877,000 women who were all faced with unintended pregnancies. Some had abortions, and some continued their pregnancies to either parent or adopt. The study included women from all over the world, including Australia and the US. I would be very happy to email this study to you for you to read. The conclusion of this study was not only that women who have abortions in the situation of unintended pregnancy are 81% more likely to suffer mental health problems, but also concluded that women are aborted were 155% more likely to display suicidal behaviour, 110% more likely to use or abuse alcohol, 34% more likely to suffer from anxiety disorders, 37% more likely to suffer from depression, and 230% more likely to engage in marijuana use. Remember, this is all in comparison to women who continued their pregnancies under the same (or similar) social circumstances. The same study concluded that a staggering 10% of ALL mental health problems in western society is directly attributable to abortion alone – that is, in the absence of any other prior mental health predispositions or diagnoses.

        As for your query regarding the number of women who regret their abortions. Further research shows that 70% of women who undergo abortion, do so feeling that they have no other choice but to have one, that given the right support they would not have gone through with it. With 90,000 abortions in Australia annually, that is 63,000 Australians each year who never make it out alive.

        3.
        My first point is outlined more clearly in my response to your previous paragraph. As I said, I’d be very happy to email you a copy of this research for you to read. I have given you the majority of the conclusions drawn from the study above though. It is a meta-analysis of many studies which included over 877,000 women.
        Regarding your suggestion about guidelines surrounding informed consent: Prolife activists have been trying for years to make this happen. Think about this, if you have appendicitis and you have to have your appendix removed, they will probably do an ultrasound (they will definitely do some sort of diagnostic imaging, but probably an ultrasound). You will be told of the outcome of the ultrasonography, a description of the appendix, and detailed description of the surgery, the expected risks of the surgery, what could go wrong etc., and you will asked to sign a consent form. Both a surgeon and an anaesthetist will go through this information with you, and everyone, including the nursing staff will make sure you are very clear on the procedure before you consent to it. If you show in any way that you are unclear on anything you should be told, the surgeon will again speak with you to ensure you understand and consent. If you are under 16 (or 18 depending on local laws), your parent or guardian will be required to consent for you after the same process as I have just outlined. An appendix is part of your anatomical make up, it has your DNA, and it belongs to you.

        Now consider this in contrast – and this happens everywhere in Australia. You are 14 years old, and you have become sexually active (regardless of with whom, it may be a similarly aged boyfriend or an older family friend who is abusing you), and you find you are now pregnant. You go to your school nurse because you are scared to tell your parents. (This is the same school where if you want a panadol for your headache then your parents must consent, and if you want to go on a school day excursion they must do the same thing.) Your school nurse does a pregnancy test for you, and confirms you are pregnant. So she arranges to take you to an abortion clinic, where none of the above consent information is required to be fulfilled, you are not given any counselling about what will happen, what it means to be pregnant (that it is not a condition, but a growing of a baby), you are not told of possible future fertility risks – and really you are probably not going to understand what that means anyway. People may ask you who the father is, and you may or may not tell them, but mandatory reporting doesn’t apply in this case for some reason. You are taken in, and an abortion is done, and nobody else ever need know….including your parents! THIS is how our society runs! THIS happens all the time! In Western Australia in 2008 there were 44 abortions done on girls under the age of 14, and there was NOT ONE prosecution of any male involved in any of the cases. This figure even came to light when an abortion clinic director advised to media due to being gravely concerned at the high proportion of them who said they had experienced unwanted sex.

        Cooling off periods, formal consent processes, mandatory non-directive counselling, parental consent have all been proposed as amendments to current abortion laws all over the country. And all have been rejected. More and more it seems that the agenda really is pro-abortion (as Leslie Cannold herself says in one of her books), and it is not about ensuring women have all CHOICES available to them at all.

        Please let me know if you would like any further information on anything I have outlined, I would be happy to share it.

        Kirsten

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        • ameliastclair

          Hi Kirsten,

          My pleasure! Contrary to what some people on this thread may think I wrote the post to bring to people’s attention some reproductive health laws in the US and allow people a chance to discuss these and so am more than happy to do just that :)

          1. I think the issue here is that whilst some women don’t feel they have support to continue a pregnancy, some women do not want to have children, and so an abortion is indeed the surgical solution to their problem. It is their choice to undergo that procedure to as you say fix their social (also emotional?) problem. Another example I can think of that has a surgical solution for a social problem is cosmetic surgery, would you agree?

          2. I would be very interested to read this article! If you could email it to me at amelia.arnold@uqconnect.edu.au I’d appreciate it, sounds like an interesting read!

          3. That really is quite startling – I have never come across anything like it! The post I wrote was however about US reproductive health laws not Australian so as such I did not come across anything like what you said in my research – perhaps it’s time for me to do a post on Australian reproductive health laws? I find it quite bizarre that parents are kept in the dark if their child has had an abortion as it is considered a major medical procedure and would surely need to be paid for in some way and need approval from the parent(s) if the teen was under 16. I find it even more bizarre that these ‘children’ in effect are not being educated about the procedure prior to it being carried out – where did you come to find out about this? And from your research have you found it to be standard procedure for teenagers? I found the following in relation to WA health laws:

          Western Australia (Criminal Code Act 1913, Health Act 1911, Acts Amendment (Abortion) Act 1998)
          • A medical practitioner may be guilty of an
          offence unless the abortion is performed in good faith and with reasonable care and skill and its performance is justified under section 334 of the Health Act 1911
          • An abortion must be ‘justified’ – a pregnant woman must have freely given informed consent or have other social, personal, medical or mental health reasons for wanting an abortion
          • A medical practitioner, other than the one performing the abortion, must provide the woman with medical information about abortion and pregnancy and offer her pre- and post-abortion counselling
          • If the pregnant woman is at least 20 weeks pregnant, she can only have a legal abortion if two medical practitioners, who are members of a government appointed committee, agree that the pregnant woman or fetus has a severe medical condition which justifies the procedure
          • A ‘dependant minor’ (<16 years of age who
          is financially supported by her custodial parent(s)) cannot give consent unless one of the following conditions are met: one of her custodial parents is informed that an abortion is being considered and given the opportunity to participate in the counselling and other medical consultations; or a court order is obtained from the Children’s Court dispensing with this requirement.

          Enjoy your Saturday :)

          Amelia

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          • Kirsten

            Hi Amelia,

            Sorry for the delay in my reply. See my response below:

            1.
            For women who believe that they never want to have children, do you not think that they would be better to make alternative surgical solutions to this than to have an abortion? Or even multiple abortions? To go ahead and decide that you want to, for example, have your ‘tubes tied’ because you don’t want to have children, for a young woman, it would be very difficult to get the surgery and there would be a lengthy screening and counselling process involved in the decision making to ensure that this is really what the woman is wanting. This is due to the concern that those same women will change their mind later in life. Yet, even with the significant risks to fertility that an abortion causes, and the ‘same’ reasons behind wanting to have an abortion versus wanting to have her ‘tubes tied’, there would be no such screening process or mandatory counselling. Contradictory standards wouldn’t you agree? To go further, it is ‘sometimes’ possible for a surgery such as having ‘tubes tied’ to be successfully reversed, but infertility caused by abortion is not so reversible. Emotional problems can be addressed with counselling, yet there is no requirement for this step when it comes to abortion. Emotional support for women experiencing unintended or challenging pregnancies is available everywhere, though not always readily and it is not mandatory to at least seek some counselling prior to an abortion. Regarding your analogy of cosmetic purposes being a surgical solution for a social problem – I have a couple of issues with this comparison. Firstly the risks are very different, and do not involve the life of a second person; again there is often counselling involved with cosmetic surgery yet not with abortion; the process of informed consent is mandated and followed to the letter of the law with cosmetic surgery and there are no such informed consent laws surrounding abortion procedures; a misshapen (in someone’s own opinion) nose cannot be compared directly with a developing baby that is mostly fully formed by the stage that most abortions take place. I find that the comparison is not really equitable.

            2.
            I have emailed you the article, and can provide more of Priscilla’s research to you should you wish to receive it. Please feel free to email me with questions at any time.

            3.
            Yes, this is not an uncommon practice. Not every state in Australia keeps separate records of abortion as a means of termination of pregnancy in their statistics, but a few do. In the neonatal morbidity and mortality reports that are available, not only is the gestational age of the babies being aborted reported on, but also the mother’s age is reported on so it is simple to extrapolate the ages. South Australia is one of the few states that require some form of parental consent, and involvement in a counselling process to procure an abortion in that state, however that can be easily circumvented through a court order and the teen can get the abortion without her parents knowing. Given the liberal nature of the reasons for abortion these days, it would not be unthinkable to assume that a teen who is scared of how her parents might react to the news of her pregnancy would be awarded the right to not have parental consent for her abortion by the courts. It is a fact that still today, women and teenagers are told that their unborn babies are ‘just a clump of cells’. Science has proven that this is a bald faced lie, yet it is being repeated and perpetuated daily within abortion clinics and by information on the web, and through the media. The development of a woman’s unborn baby should be part of the process of informed consent, but it isn’t, just as what the procedure entails should be, yet it isn’t. In my experience, when you explain to someone who calls themself pro’choice’ what an abortion procedure entails I am usually told that the description is surely a lie and is so grotesque that it could not be true. And that is when I explain it in the most gentle of terms without a great deal of detail. Sometimes I think that people are in denial about what abortion is, because to understand what the procedure is and to admit what it entails is to condone something even they themselves see as being a violent and grotesque act. Why such information is so vehemently denied, yet so medically accurate is truly beyond me.

            Regarding the laws you came across for WA:
            – “in good faith”. Is your ‘in good faith’ the same as mine or the next person’s? This is a very unclear wording, and is how abortion on demand has become as liberal as it is.
            - “justified…..or have other social, personal….reasons” – meaning for any reason whatsoever that the woman wants to have one.
            - Women are provided with information such as how long the procedure will take, what pain they may or may not experience, what they may expect in the recovery period, but little to no details about what the procedure itself entails, not what the long-term side effects are. They must be ‘offered’ pre and post abortive counselling, but it is not mandatory, and this counselling, if it is taken up, is usually done by a nurse or similar in the abortion clinic, in the moments before the procedure. Done by someone whose wages are paid by a business that has a vested financial interest in the decision of the person receiving that ‘counselling’. Of women I have spoken to, this process involved “you can have an abortion, continue your pregnancy to parent, or adopt your baby out” to which she replies “I want an abortion”, and after which no other information is offered regarding any support or availability of the alternatives in the context of their individual circumstances and reasons that may have brought them to the abortion clinic in the first place.
            - Those 2 medical doctors can be abortionists, who also have a vested financial interest in the outcome. For any medical conditions in a mother that would dictate her life expectancy requires her pregnancy to end, there is NO reason why this could not be done with the premature induced delivery of her live baby and initiating life saving measures for both. There are also no such emergent or immediately life-threatening conditions of a mother where her baby is better to be aborted than delivered and attempted to be saved. If the goal is to end the mother’s pregnancy becuase of illness, then there is no need to end the life of her baby in the process. Regarding babies with foetal abnormalities, this is a broad statement and can mean anything from a cleft palate to anencephaly. there are so many families out there who have carried their babies to term even when they have had fatal diagnoses and who report that although it was devastating, the time they had with their baby was priceless. Not to mention that completing a pregnancy and a natural delivery is less risk to a mother’s health than to have a late term abortion (for which the procedure is particularly violent).
            - see my earlier comment about South Australia, this is similar.

            Hope that answers some of your questions, I look forward to learning if you have any more that I can answer for you!

            Kirsten

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        • Faybian

          In Qld school based nurses are non clinical (in a traditional sense)and not allowed to perform pregnancy tests. They can only advise a girl to get a pregnancy test and then counsel her on her choices if it is positive. If its a result of sexual abuse they are then required to notify child safety and would probably notify if the girl was under 14, even if it was with another teenager.
          Don’t know about other states.

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  24. Martin Snigg

    Disgraceful censorship of my comment. Why is one side of a moral question overly burdened in this way? This article is about the killing of preborn human beings, there are people who vigorously dissent from this practice those who promote it should expect vigorous but reasoned criticism. Can I have grounds for the decision? Note the author supports the destruction of preborn children, recalling my contribution I can’t remember writing anything as extreme as this.

    One can beg the question against the value of fetal life, that is, believe taking their life is a matter of private preference – but then why have a comment section if the matter is already determined in this publications opinion?

    Perusing the language and content of some comments below, some are bitterly accusing, politically provocative and contemptuous and many outright misandrist. Again may I have grounds for the censorship of my comment?

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    • ameliastclair

      Hi Martin,

      All comments on all posts are monitored by the Mamamia editorial team and are deleted if they breach the comment guidelines illustrated above. Please reference these guidelines prior to posting. My aim with this article was to share some research and opinion, and to encourage respectful discussion, not personal attacks or name calling. As you can see in this thread, earlier posts also disagree with the theme of the article but remain on the site because the responses are respectful and well-reasoned.

      Thank you

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      • Martin Snigg

        Hi Amelia,

        I read the comment guidelines naturally, and restating them to me is certainly no answer to my request. It would have been a simple matter to show where the rules were broken if the comment was so baldly unacceptable.

        Without any justification given its I’ll conclude that the convictions of the editors and their financial backers are much more brittle than they would like revealed. How could it be otherwise? By some mechanism currently hidden from them but all too human, they find themselves in the position of defending the practice of killing innocent children in the womb, whose corpses are incinerated as medical waste by the million every year, and at the same time able to call the name of their enterprise ‘my mother’.

        This level of cognitive dissonance requires many many years of effort. A wiping of the most basic of human responses out of one’s soul. And by how they have behaved when some light was shone on this ugliness, its likely they will not change.

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        • ameliastclair

          Hi Martin,

          It is clear you have views that differ to mine, but please try to respect the views of others rather than suggesting that those who have a differing opinion have had ‘a wiping of the most basic of human responses out of their souls’.

          Also, I’m not sure why you are referring to financial backers? I am at a loss really.

          If you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all :)

          Amelia

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  25. ameliastclair

    Hi Kirsten,

    Thank you for your comment. Women should be told the truth about their foetus (wrongfull birth bill) so they can make informed decisions about their bodies and their future. They shouldn’t be subjected to an ultrasound that will guilt them into gestating and giving birth to a child they don’t wish to have (ultrasound bill) when they are already aware of the truth of the condition of the foetus from other forms of testing (e.g. genetic testing)

    Does that clarify it for you? No need to be rude.

    Amelia

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  26. PinkLizzy

    Ive been keeping an eye on the American news a lot lately and watching the republicans slowly but surely strip women of their rights regardless of what is best, safest and healthiest for them.

    I imagine a future where there are gender refugees fleeing America to get basic and respectful healthcare.

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    • Sonja

      You might be interested in watching the trailer for ‘Blood Money’ on youtube.

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  27. guest

    Nicole, There ARE thousands of women/couples/families out there looking to adopt and/but MILLIONS of children ALREADY depsperately in need of adoption both in Australia and overseas. There are countless children floating around in the foster system in often horrendous circumstances waiting for a loving family to look after them. Until there are NO CHILDREN to adopt, saying that there are women out there willing to adopt even MORE unwanted children is not a valid argument.

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    • Nicole

      Guest: So we should just kill them then, is that your opinion? Where does the line stop? How come everyone commenting here today was allowed to live but we can make a ‘choice’ to not give others the chance.

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    • Deb

      There were less than 50 Australian born children placed for adoption to other families in Australia last year. More than 500 couples had to look overseas for children to adopt.

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      • guest

        What’s wrong with looking overseas for adoption? If a couple is desperate to have a child then there are millions of wonderful children depserate for loving parents. End of story. The opening line in this well written and informative (and scary) article is ” it’s an intersting time to own a uterus in the United States”. OWN a uterus. The end line here is that women own their bodies and should have absolute control of what they do with them.

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        • Sonja

          We absolutely have the right to do what we want with our own bodies. Hear Hear!! We do not have the right to destory anothers!!

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        • LellaK

          I dont think Deb is knocking overseas adoptions – i think she is stating how ONLY 50 kids were placed – there is more out there in Oz requiring loving homes. The process is incredibly hard

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          • Sonja

            A friend who is currently doing a PHD in adoption phoned an adoption agency to find out what the process of making an adoption plan for her baby would be. After much deliberation, she was advised to contact another agency. The second agency’s receptionist literally dropped the phone, left for several minutes and eventually advised her to get herself a solicitor….what 16, 25, 40 year old woman is going to want to go through that process when dealing with a crisis pregnancy?!! Following that there are psych tests, a cooling off period and other hoops to jump through. By contrast another lady went to an abortion clinic to get some information for an assignment – the receptionist immediately referred to her book and said “I can fit you in tomorrow”……. CHOICE??!! Really??

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        • Deb

          No person has absolute control and authority over their own body. Suicide is still a crime. We cannot choose to have an arm, eye or finger removed just because we want to. This is a statement brought out ONLY to support abortion, it is not a fact in law or practise.

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          • Faybian

            Are you absolutely sure that suicide is still a crime in every state in Australia???

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  28. lauren0108

    Also, regardless of people’s views on abortion, is there really anyone who believes that if it were made either illegal or very difficult for women, we wouldn’t revert to the situation of women bleeding to death on dodgy backyard abortion tables? Is that really what we want – because that is what would happen!

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    • Deb

      Dodgy backyard abortion tables were not the norm for illegal abortion in Australia or the United States. Most illegal abortions were done by doctors. The death rate from abortion dropped with the advent of antibiotics, NOT with the legalisation of abortion.

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      • lauren0108

        They happened and they would continue to happen.

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        • Kirsten

          And where’s your evidence for this claim?

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        • Faybian

          I agree. It’s very naive to assume that we can educate men and women or enforce the no sex before marriage enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Abortions have been performed for as long as women haven’t felt able to have another baby. Since modern medicine came about, more doctors have been willing to perform them (my own grandmother had an illegal abortion), but they put their licences at risks and women will still resort to deadlier means if they’re desperate enough.

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          • Deb

            Or….. we’ll finally pull together as a society and support women in adverse circumstances so that they need not be so vulnerable, alone, scared and/or unsupported. We would be FORCED to find solutions other than the surgical kind for women who are currently FORCED to choose between their circumstances and their children.

            The alternative does NOT have to be going back decades to shame and ostracising.

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            • Faybian

              It would be nice in an ideal world, but IMO you’re being unrealistic.

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        • sonja

          Stats please Lauren? According to the Aus Bureau of Stats, in the year the Menhennit Ruling was passed, one woman in all of Australian died from a backyard abortion. While sad, it is hardly justification for 90,000 abortions in Australia today. Are you aware that two women have died from “safe abortions” in the last year in Australia, hundreds of women hospitalised from incomplete or botched RU 486 abortions in SA in 2010? Bernard Nathanson, abortionist (of 75,000 babies) and founder of NARAL admitted years later to lying about the numbers of women dying from backyard abortions, in order to pass Roe vs Wade. There were no “droves of women” dying from backyard abortions – it was rare…more myths from the abortion industry! Furthermore, people forget to look at what drove these women to suh drastic measures. A colleague was telling me how traumatised her own mother was from a back yard abortion, but she had never thought through how she ended up in the situation…her father had made her mother do it (as a Mum and wife, I would be traumatised by a forceful husband insisting i kill my wanted baby)!!! The backyard abortionist moved onto the main street and become protected and funded by our state governments!

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  29. Nicole

    I agree that there are many choices that need to be made when having a baby, but abortion is not a good choice for either the mother or baby. There is a whole lot of emotion going on in this comments section that either stems from past or present hurt or misinformation. Terminating a babies life kills the baby, as well as physically and emotionally damages the Mum. My baby was born with congenital defects and I was aksed sooo many times to terminate his life. Babies do not have exceptionally expensive needs, there are frugal ways to bring up a child with love and good education. I don’t want to judge, but encourage others that get caught up in ‘making choices’ that change the lives of all parties forever. Even if you don’t belive that a baby is a baby in the womb, why would you put yourslef through the trauma of an experience you will never forget. Wouldn’t you rather have someone that grows up to look at you with love?And if you don’t, then there are thousands of families out there just waiting to adopt a baby.

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    • lauren0108

      How would feel about that choice being made for you though Nicole? Either way? You feel that you made the ‘right’ choice – but it was the right choice for you and your child and family; not necessarily for someone else. And it’s wonderful that you were able to make it and that you have no regrets regarding it. It’s wonderful that you’re happy. But, everyone should have that right…

      I can personally answer ‘no’ to your last sentence and I think a lot of others could also. And adoption would never be an option for me.

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      • Nicole

        May I ask why adoption would never be an option for you? Why would you prefer to take a life, then give life to another? If you are going to have one procedure to end life. Why not give life instead? For you are most certainly able to defend your right to live, but the baby cannot. Thankfully your Mum made the choice to give you a chance, mine as well. Don’t we all deserve that choice?

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        • lauren0108

          I don’t see it as taking a life. It’s taking a ‘potential’ life. So to me…. Based on my beliefs and feelings, I don’t see it the way you do. Adoption for me would be way too hard. If I gave birth to a baby, it would be ‘mine’. I get that you feel that same way about a foetus but I just don’t…

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    • Carolyn

      I agree with what Nicole has said. Saying “but it is my uterus!” is not acceptable to me. It is like saying “but it was my car, I chose to drive it off a cliff with my child in the back seat.” yes, it is your womb but it carries a little person in there! My youngest child was born with congenital heart disease and we were encouraged to end the “non viable pregnancy” at 20 weeks. He is now 15 months old and such a delight. Killing people is not ok in my books. Ever. As for the choice being made for me well I have no problem with the current laws we have prohibiting infanticide so i do not see this as a different issue.

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  30. Lauren

    Oh my God!

    You know I was reading this thinking how crazy this was but not really processing that these things are being debated right now, like 2012 not 1912. And in the US of all places.

    When it finally hit me I just felt sad and angry that this is real

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    • Sonja

      Agree! Look how far our society has regressed!!

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  31. lauren0108

    How anyone thinks we should force women to bring UNWANTED children into this world just flabbergasts me. Yes, there are a plethora of issues around that – but to me, that’s the key argument and always will be. In an ideal world there would be no unwanted pregnancies. Absolutely. And that’s what we should strive towards in terms of contraception education and everything else. But please stop trying to make convuluted arguments that are in favour of people being guilt-tripped, manipulated or forced to have children they simply don’t want. How anyone thinks that’s in the best interest of the child is beyond me. It really is.

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    • Deb

      Research tells us that the majority of women are having abortions they don’t really want, aborting children they do really want if only their circumstances were different. We are not talking about UNWANTED children. We are talking about providing surgical solutions to women’s social, relational and economic problems… because that is the ‘easy’ thing for everyone else to offer.

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      • lauren0108

        Hi Deb, l don’t know what research you’re referring to but I can tell you that those I know who had abortions did it for reasons other than not feeling supported etc. I think we should acknowledge that there are many reasons and many circumstances and that’s why it must come down to ‘choice’.

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        • Deb

          USA, UK and Australian research about the reasons women have abortions is consistent. More than 95% of abortions overall are for what is termed psychosocial reasons. Not enough money, will hamper career, interrupt education, nowhere to live, husband, boyfriend or parents unsupportive, and a myriad of other often complex reasons.

          When a woman says she has to ‘choose’ between continuing her education or having her baby that is NOT a free choice.

          When a woman says her boyfriend/husband/parent really wants her to have an abortion of they will leave/divorce/not support here, that is NOT a free choice.

          When workplaces are unsupportive of women being both mothers and career women and women feel forced to seek abortion that is NOT a free choice.

          Whilst we put so much energy into arguing for more and better medical and surgical options for women to rid themselves of pregnancies, we fail to meet the real needs of women.

          We tell women they are choosing.. and they believe it. It’s a lie.

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          • Faybian

            I’d say having nowhere to live is a pretty good reason not to have a baby. Mandated notifies like myself can and will notify child safety, who can and will remove children. Not enough money is a good reason too, for the same reason. They can both lead to (or already have in the case of homelessness) failure to provide the necessities for your child. I have the dubious privelige of attending our local child protection meeting and some of the things you hear there could just make you rethink.

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            • Deb

              So Faybian, how about we do something to correct these social and economic circumstances? Do you really see abortion as a matter of choice in these kinds of situations? This is the battle that many are fighting on the abortion front. The idea that abortion should ‘remain a woman’s choice’ when in fact it is rarely a free choice.

              The stories of women forced to have abortions they didn’t want because of the pressures from other people, or because they could not find a way to be or feel supported to alter their circumstances are the most heartbreaking I have ever dealt with as a therapist.

              Abortion offered as ‘choice’ to women who don’t experience it as such is coercive.

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            • Faybian

              I don’t have the answers and it seems neither do you.
              I don’t agree with coerced abortions, just as I don’t agree with coerced gestation and motherhood.

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            • Ana

              The majority of abortions are performed on women who are between 25 and 34, followed by ages 20-24 and 35-40 (Source:
              Health Insurance Commission. Total services for Medicare Item No. 35643 by
              http://www.hic.gov.au). So, although anyone can fall on hard times at any age, it would be reasonable to assume that the ‘no money’ and ‘education’ arguments aren’t to do with completing secondary education and getting a job. It’s more plausible that these women haven’t yet attained or don’t wish to lose the lifestyle that they desire or have decided on a career change. This is vastly different to a woman who’s 16 years old, hasn’t finish school and was kicked out of home when she found out she was pregnant. You can’t use a small, stereotyped minority to push this. It simply defies the truth

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  32. guest

    I have always been pro-choice but never thought that I, on a personal level would be able to go through with an abortion as I have always wanted children. However finding myself pregnant with a lovely but completely ‘not ready’ (ex) partner, hardly any money, no emotional support and a whole host of other unpleasant circumstances I surprisingly (to myself) decided to have an abortion. I discussed it with some close friends and family from both pro-life and pro-choice viewpoints and decided that I would not be, at that particular stage in my life, the kind of mother that I one day desperately want to be, and the kind of mother that I think my child, and any/every child, deserves. It was difficult and distressing and certainly not a decision I made lightly but I do not and don’t think I ever will regret it. The staff at the clinic were professional and kind and compassionate. They DID have to perform an ultrasound to check the weeks of the baby but i didn’t look and the doctor didn’t talk about it with me or force anything on me at all as I had told him I was quite upset by the whole ordeal. I know I made the right decision for me, and even found (and hopefully gave) strength to the other women there. Ranging from middle aged married women to 13 year old girls I didn’t see one woman there who was unaffected by what she was doing, or looked like she hadn’t thought it through. Bit of a ramble I know, but thought it was worth adding

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  33. Ana

    The protection of human life is indeed terrifying… obviously… There are so many misleading comments in this article, which is truly terrifying. First of all, abortion affects the Women of tomorrow because it kills tomorrows Women.

    I’ll just point out a few of the inconsistencies for you:
    “This will most likely mean an unnecessary C-section, as inducing labour can fail early in pregnancy”
    Once you are pregnant, a C-Section is always a possibility. Sorry, it just is. You could stall out after 24 hours of spontaneous labour at 41+3 weeks. It’s just fear mongering to say that it might happen with a still-born baby. Yes it might, or it might not, but it might happen later on too. I was induced to deliver my deceased baby at 17 weeks. One induction, seven hours of labour, 40 minutes of ‘second stage’ (pushing). No fun for sure, but quite ridiculous to suggest that this makes a good reason for abortion.

    Babies don’t feel pain before 25 weeks, or do they?
    While I don’t think this makes a rats furry bottoms worth of difference, here’s the thing: If you have a premature baby born at 25 weeks, the medical staff are very reluctant to let you touch the baby because they’re quite fragile and… the nerve endings are uncapped so they feel the smallest touch as a significant pain. So, which is it, they feel pain or they don’t? It’s not possible for them to feel pain when they’re wanted and loved, but to be unable to feel pain when they’re not.

    The Ultrasound Debate
    How many medical procedures do you have where the doctor doesn’t explain what they see, show you your imaging and explain what they’re looking at? (Sometimes they don’t, and then they get referred to as a ‘quack’ and you tell everyone you know to avoid them). So if that’s normal best practice for a doctor about to perform any sort of surgery, how and why does abortion get a legal exemption?

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    • Faybian

      Ana did you know that the thin lower segment of uterus does not develop until very late in a pregnancy? This is where a Caesarian cut is made. The reason it’s done there is because if they cut in the upper, muscular section of the uterus, then any future pregnancies are under hugely increased threat of uterine rupture, oh and that segment will also bleed a lot more because it is so vascular. A Caesarian section is not done early unless absolutely necessary.

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      • Ana

        Thanks for clearing that up for me. I guess that in that case it’s perfectly logical to allow the killing a pre-born human by dismembering it without providing it with any pain relief.

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      • Ana

        And while were at it, we’re supposed to believe that a D&E can be performed on a live baby but not a sill-born one? Huh, fancy that.

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        • Katmag

          Ana I’m not sure of your experience of termination of pregnancy but how the procedure is carried out in this country is dependant on the age of the foetus. Dead or alive there comes a point where that foetus becomes too big for a d&c to be carried out and then the mother must deliver that baby vaginally. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘dismembering’ but my experience is that that baby is delivered intact.

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          • Deb

            Babies may be delivered intact after first being terminated by a lethal injection, or using a method commonly called partial birth abortion. In this procedure the baby is delivered in a breech position until all but its head is outside the woman’s body. The abortionist then collapses the baby’s skull by making an incision in the base of the baby’s skull and suctioning out the brain to collapse the skull. In this procedure there is no need for the lethal cardiac injection. The baby is alive until the brain suctioning.

            Babies can also be delivered by Dilatation and Evacuation where the baby’s body is removed in pieces using scissors and forceps. There is also no need for a lethal cardiac injection in this procedure either as the baby definitely dies at some point during the dismemberment.

            Brutal facts, but absolutely facts.

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            • Katmag

              I have seen this description you have just posted in an article that I found when I googled late termination of pregnancy and I don’t believe that this is the way the procedure happens in this country. Having just had a late termination I can assure you that my baby was delivered intact after a cervigen induction and several hours of labour. I work in a large tertiary referral teaching hospital and that is not how the procedure is carried out at that hospital. I would be interested if that is anyone else’s experience on here or if you are deliberately trying to be emotive.

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            • Faybian

              Thanks for answering previously. You save me from doing it. I’ve never seen late terminations done that way either. I think that description is for the shock value.

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            • Deb

              Katmag, I am sorry for your loss, or if my post has caused any distress for you.

              My descriptions are not inaccurate and are commonly used, although as is your experience a baby can also be delivered intact.

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            • Katmag

              Deb your post didn’t distress me and I appreciate your sympathy. I just think that this is an extremely complex decision for what ever reason. If you had asked me 6 months ago if I would ever have a termination the answer would have been absolutely not but again life throws a curve ball to challenge those absolutes and I found myself in a situation where there was to be 2 terrible outcomes and Ineeded to make that decision. Am I traumatized by the whole situation…yes. Would I have made the same decision now knowing what I do now…yes. Yes people need to be informed with all the information to make these decisions and it should never be taken lightly. However as with options when it comes to delivering a live baby there are also some options when it comes to termination. I would not have consented to any of the methods that you describe and I doubt any of the doctors I was dealing with would have forced the issue.

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  34. maggie

    Wow, I feel SO fortunate to live in Australia.

    America is getting crazier by the second these days! Those poor women :(

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  35. Trynie

    A woman should have the right to choose what she does with her own body. That is all

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  36. Bronwyn

    hank you for discussing this topic. It is always good to keep discussion and debate going on this.

    I have a bit of a weird stand on this issue. I am both pro-choice & pro-life. Impossible … I say no. Legally I am pro-choice. Within certain constraints I strongly believe in the reproductive rights of women. My grandmother’s young aunt died at 21 because of a backyard abortion. She was young and beautiful and this was just so wrong. We dont need to repeat the sins of the past. But outside of things like rape, incest, high risk, medically futile and severe congenital defects .. I am not a fan/supporter of abortion. I think life begins at conception. But this is my belief that I don’t want to impose on others and therefore do not think it should be illegal. I think that balanced information needs to be provided from all sides including more options than keep or abort like adoption.

    * Wrongful Birth Act – Nothing should allow a medical practitioner to withhold information or lie because of their personal beliefs. Abortion is just the tip of this iceberg.

    * Ultrasounds – Hmm. I do think that to determine the age of the fetus that a ultrasound seems reasonable. However I am in 2 minds about whether they HAVE to listen or see the screen. I know I am going to get flamed … but I don’t see why when the abortion is being performed for reasons other than rape, incest, high risk, medically futile and severe congenital defects that they shouldn’t be required to hear and see the ultrasound. I see this as part of making an informed choice.

    * personhood USA. That is just trying to ban abortion by other means. very simply wrong.

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    • Anonymous

      I had a 4 year old and a 1 year old when I had an abortion. Having a baby at that time would have put an enormous amount of pressure on my family, I was not really coping with the 2 kids I already had. If I had been made to look at the ultrasound picture I would not have been able to go through with the abortion. And there is absolutely no way I would have been able to give up the baby for adoption. I would have kept it and not looked after it properly. I don’t think seeing a picture is part of making an informed choice. I knew I was pregnant, I didn’t need a picture. It’s just messing with the heads of women who are already in a very vulnerable state. It’s manipulation.

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    • bedizz

      Great comment.

      I think it’s reasonably to have a legal view that differs from a moral one. I do with euthanasia. I’m not morally opposed to it, but legally I am opposed for many reasons which I wont go into now as I know i’m completely off topic.

      I think many people have similar moral/legal ambivalence around certain issues but they find it hard to articulate.

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  37. Gen

    Amazing article. This stuff makes me so angry. Even down to the very language used to delineate the two sides of the debate: ‘pro-life’ is such a stupid term – just because I dont think women’s rights to control their own bodies should be ceded to a fundamentalist, factional imperative doesn’t mean I am an ‘anti-life’ monster – I am an enlightened, modern woman who demands sovereignty over her body and her life! I pity the poor American women – those who are subjected to the artificial ‘guilt’ of aborting a foetus, and those who are coerced into making life changing decisions that are not their own. America is legitimizing its fundamentalist religious minorities by allocating them a disproportionate amount of political power, which allows them to mould American society into a backward, anti-liberal state. Because of this influence, America’s social conscience is rapidly regressing back to what it was in the days of slavery – a time when slaves, rather than pregnant women, were the ones who had no say in what happened to their lives or their bodies. It is stories like this that really make me believe that America is rotting from the inside out. ‘The land of the free’ – what a misnomer.

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    • ameliastclair

      Great piece Gen, thanks for sharing :)

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    • Seahorse

      I totally agree. It’s a matter of precedence of rights – either pro-mum’s or pro-baby’s rights.

      “Life” versus “choice” is so misleading. Suggesting we are happy to legalise murder just for some extra optionality… as though we were choosing which shoes to wear today. “life” should include the Mum’s life – which may well be hanging in the balance, and/or her psychological well being.

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    • claresophie89

      Awesome Gen!
      If you look at the history of America it has never been advantageous to be black, gay, Hispanic, or a woman, but it is so dispiriting to see that universal human rights are still so far away. Especially considering many women continue to support their own subjugation. Women are not a minority, they are half the population and have so much potential power to stand up and be heard. The way forward is to stop squabbling over the individual rights of groups and truly embrace the universality of the human condition.

      The people complaining the loudest are all completely personally unaffected by the issues they oppose, and simply wish to take away the freedom of individuals. Gay marriage, abortion, the right to vote for African-Americans and women have all come to pass and the world is just fine!

      A true land of the free would be a land where personal matters that have no effect on the rest of society are left alone by the government.

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  38. Feline

    OK, I’m going to take a deep breath and plunge in…. I, too, am appalled by these proposed bills, especially the wrongful birth bill. I would never support any of these bills under any circumstances. However, I have seen things in my line of work which I think form some of the basis of this kind of thinking. Many people commenting here assume that any babies with congenital abnormalities which could be concealed from the mother would need special care, ongoing medical costs and be very ‘damaged’ etc. However, I have seen women, on a repeated basis, terminate pregnancies in Australia because a baby has a cleft lip (not cleft palate), which is quite easily diagnosed on antenatal ultrasound. This is a cosmetic issue, sometimes a minor one. And cleft lip repair has come a long, long way since the poor repairs from decades ago. Now, I am pro-choice. But terminating an otherwise healthy baby, in a pregnancy that was planned and wanted, just because the baby has a cleft lip and will need a cosmetic repair does not sit well with me AT ALL. In fact, it makes me want to cry with horror. And I know it sickens the sonographers and obstetricians who see it, but they duly respect the mothers wishes, because that’s how we do things here. There are always two sides to any story, and unfortunately behaviour at one extreme of the spectrum often leads to behaviour at the other extreme in response.

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    • CBR

      So what? Their reasoning may not be good enough in your eyes, but it is good enough for them. A woman should have an absolute right to end her pregnancy, for whatever reason, at least up to a certain point. Its her body, not the baby’s.

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      • Feline

        Please note that I stressed that I am pro-choice. But saying ‘so what’ I think lessens the gravity of the decision. I’m interested to hear you say that ‘a woman should have an absolute right to end her pregnancy, at least up to a certain point’. At what point would that be? Choosing some arbitrary point at which the woman should no longer have the choice I think is quite similar to saying woman should have the right to terminate for congenital abnormalities except if they are minor… Both stances claim to be pro-choice but in fact are only pro-choice to a limited extent. Also, new legislation is finally being introduced which recognises a foetus as a human life when it is damaged or killed by a third party (eg drunk driver in a car accident). It is interesting that we want to recognise that baby’s rights and protect it, but not necessarily from its mother.

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    • caramel80

      “But terminating an otherwise healthy baby, in a pregnancy that was planned and wanted, just because the baby has a cleft lip and will need a cosmetic repair does not sit well with me AT ALL.”

      Agreed

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  39. Guest 2

    It worries me that some people think it’s ok for a pregnancy to be aborted if the woman was raped but not otherwise.

    So an ‘innocent victim’ is justified for abortion but a ‘promiscuous slut’ Is not. The foetus is a foetus no matter how it was conceived. A person should either be fully pro-choice, or fully anti-woman-choice.

    Otherwise it’s stinks of just saying ‘you deserve what you get, slut’, and not about saving a baby, at all.

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    • archie

      I’m fully pro choice.

      But there is a world of difference between a woman saying “I choose to have sex of my own free will, with the knowledge that it may create a baby”(regardless of precautions taken and the number of people she has slept with) and one who was raped, obviously against her will, and ends up impregnated. There is an element of personal responsibility and forethought that is missing from your argument.

      That said, I personally believe abortions should be available to those who want them, regardless of the situation.

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    • Belle

      I totally agree Guest 2!! “A foetus is a foetus no matter how it was concieved”

      If you can accept it for rape then it is acceptable for women who had sex by choice but would still be traumatised by birth. It is just slut shaming.

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    • Seahorse

      I find this stance hard to accept… how can you be so sure when there is so much grey area?

      How about the Mum in Victoria who was trying to abort her desperately sought after IVF-conceived baby because it was a boy not a girl? Do you not find that ethically disturbing? What if that WERE legal in Australia?

      I think a lot of the time mum really does come first, and I personally feel somewhere in between on the abortion debate, it’s very circumstantial. There are surely situations where society cannot condone/support termination of unborn life? Such as on the ground of gender or cosmetic reasons?

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      • Victoria

        Do you really think that considering that choice that person should have had the baby?

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        • Seahorse

          No. I don’t think someone in that mind set should be a mum. I don’t think that person should have been actively trying to fall pregnant if she only had a 50% chance of being happy with the gender outcome. But I used that example to illustrate how wrong it feels on a gut level, to end the life of a foetus for that type of reason. There needs to be some guidelines about when it is ok to abort.

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        • Kirsten

          I actually believe that the woman should not have been permitted IVF in the first place, if her intention was to abort if the baby wasn’t a girl. It was irresponsible even on the part of the Dr.

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      • Kirsten

        You may remember, more accurately, that the woman in fact aborted TWIN boys after IVF before they weren’t girls. She then went to court to fight to be allowed gender selection, and has since (after being denied) decided to travel overseas to have gender selection IVF…..

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  40. Seahorse

    The abortion debate is like a car accident I can’t tear my eyes away from.

    I find it really difficult to articulate my stance somewhere between pro-choice and pro-life – can we just called this pro-mum vs pro-baby? Because that’s what it’s really about, the comparative rights of a mother versus it’s baby – or rather, what to do when a mother’s and baby’s interests are not aligned. Science and ethicists have tied themselves in pretzels getting their minds around when “life” begins. But it seems a waste of time if the interests of those two people are not aligned, and one person is dependent on the other.

    It’s patently not in the best interests of someone who has decided to go through with an abortion, to see and ultrasound or hear a heartbeat. How could that possibly be beneficial? The motives are so transparent I don’t know why they don’t just say “we would like you to suffer some more before you go through with the horrible decision you’ve already been faced with, and no doubt feel desperate about”.

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    • twomummies

      I think you nailed it with the ‘pro-mum vs pro-baby’ description. This divide is seen a variety of issues these days not just abortion (e.g. known donor vs unknown donor, adoption).

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    • Deb

      Using ‘pro mum’ or ‘pro baby’ disregards the mountains of evidence about how harmful abortion can be for the woman. For example, generally speaking people on both ‘sides’ of the abortion debate accept the strong research evidence that a history of mental health problems greatly increases a woman’s risk of serious mental health problems if she has an abortion. Regardless of this, abortion is still offered as a positive solution to a woman experiencing a mental health issue.

      As a nurse who has worked in an acute psychiatric facility, I have seen women expressing suicidal ideation, women who believe that a particular part of their body, like a finger, or a leg, was the absolute cause of their desire to kill themselves. We don’t allow these women to cut off their fingers or legs. We recognise that they have a mental health problem that needs to be addressed. Women in Australia have had abortions, many late term abortions of healthy viable babies because they say they feel suicidal. What is the reasoning for not allowing a woman to remove her finger (absolutely and unquestionably part of her body), but allowing her to not only remove, but first terminate the life of another body she is carrying within her body, instead of 1. offering her mental health treatment for her suicidal ideation or 2. removing her baby alive?

      The above is an extreme but real example of what can and does happen.

      Many women suffer psychologically and physically after abortion, yet some people still want to render the debate to being about either the baby or the woman. I developed a prolife ideology ONLY because of what I saw in my professional capacity, as the harmful effects of abortion on women, NOT because I began with any understanding of foetal development. I

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      • Seahorse

        I don’t think we are necessarily in disagreement Deb. It seems the pro-life ideology you have developed is essential pro-mum, you just believe that abortion is not in the interests of the mum. That is, for a mother to allow harm to befall her child, does harm to the mother essentially, yes?

        I can see that from your perspective, in the vast majority of abortion instances, you see the interests of the mother and baby intrinsically linked. What is in bubs best interest (not aborting) will be in mum best interest. And for those majority situations the research does seem very persuasive to that view.

        What I struggle with is how that idealogy applies to the minority cases. I’m not convinced that mum and bubs interests are ALWAYS aligned. Sometimes aborting the baby will actually be in the mothers best interests, such as when her life is at stake for a medical reason. What then? Can you still be 100% pro-life (pro-bub) then? Because you might end up with both mum and bub dead, which seems… a waste.

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        • Kirsten

          Out of interest, seahorse, can you give me an idea of such a situation? I have many years of emergency, intensive care, and paramedical experience and have yet to ever come across any situation, or hear of one, where a mother would need to have her baby aborted in order to survive. I’ve also yet to find one person who can give me even one example. Can you be the first? I always find this to be a very interesting and eye opening question for some. Thanks :)

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          • Faybian

            Ive posted it somewhere else, but a friend developed liver failure (I think idiopathic, I don’t think she had HELLPP, spelling, syndrome) that progressed to the point where the unexpected premature delivery of her child saved her life.she narrowly avoided being put on the transplant list and will never have another child.

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            • Deb

              Seahorse, yes, this is my position. With regard to health issues of the mother, I concur with Kirsten. Faybian, even in the circumstance you describe there is a significant difference between the delivery of a premature child with attempts made to help that child survive, and the deliberate ending of the child’s life. There is NEVER any health benefit to the woman with the deliberate ending of the life the child. Ending the pregnancy with the delivery of a live child will have the same outcome for the mother in health terms.

              Discussion about the ‘hard issues’ is important, however these constitute less than 6% of all abortions and shouldn’t be used as a means to downplay the seriousness of 95% of abortions on healthy babies and mothers.

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            • Faybian

              Deb, if the liver failure had been so severe earlier on, it could have been a termination. The end of the pregnancy either way was necessary to get her enzymes down. This would have a health effect for the mother. Unpleasant as it may be, the mothers life was the priority here.

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  41. Belle

    The one thing I don’t understand is, why now? Why the deluge of horrific laws now? It has always been “conservative” in the U.S. but it seems particularly bad now. Am I imagining that?

    Is it because it is election season and they’re all trying to do out-conservative eachother? A “look how evil and draconian I can be about a woman’s uterus!!! Everyone see how CHRISTIAN I am??!”

    Is that it?

    Gosh this makes me angry. And it is SCARY.

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    • Kirsten

      How about, oh now science and ultrasound allows us to see the humanity of our unborn babies and is making it harder and harder to ignore and keep calling them ‘clumps of cells’? Seems reasonable to me….

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  42. TLeaves

    crazy stuff.. next it we will be in trouble for wasting eggs with a period, or wasting sperm with masturbation.. far out

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    • claresophie89

      Love it lol. The world really needs some more people so lets get pregnant every month that’s definitely a logical way to manage our species. (sarcastic face)

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    • They are trying to pass something like that in Louisiana or one of the other southern states about sperm omissions!

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  43. Anonymous

    Some of this is happening in Australia already. When I terminated a pregnancy in ACT in 2004 I was made to look at an ultrasound and listen to the embryo’s heartbeat about half an hour before the procedure

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    • Seahorse

      That is just awful. I’d love to understand what the process is in Australia… who made you look/listen? It sounds like you weren’t given an option. Was is just done without asking or did they tell you it was required?

      Really feel for you, that must have been horrible.

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      • Anonymous

        It was done under the pretence that they needed to see if the embryo was definitely less than 12 weeks old, otherwise it wouldn’t be legal to terminate the pregnancy. I don’t remember being given any choice. It was some sort of nurse who did the ultrasound and she pointed out on the screen ‘look here’s the embryo’ sort of thing. It was pretty horrible because I was 17 at the time and was in no position to go through with the pregnancy but when she pointed it out I was like ‘oh wow!…wait a minute..awww..it won’t exist anymore soon and there’s nothing I can do about it’. I’m not sure if they’re expecting people to go back on a very difficult and well reasoned decision during a moment of excitement at the sight of the ultrasound or what. Pretty cruel in my opinion but I’m ok now.

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    • missamoo

      My mum was made to watch the old silent scream film with me,at 12, in the room. This was 1985, she didn’t go ahead as i have a 26 yr old sister.

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    • Another Anon

      I had a termination in 2009 in Brisbane. They did an ultrasound and told me it was to check the dates. They had the screen turned away from me. The woman who did it told me I was 8 weeks pregnant, not 7 weeks as I’d thought. She asked if I would like a photo from the ultrasound and I said no, why would you ask me that? She replied that some women like to keep a photo. I didn’t feel pressured or anything. I’m pretty sure in Australia they’re not supposed to make women look at an ultrasound let alone listen to a heartbeat. It sounds like dodgy nurses taking it upon themselves to change women’s minds.

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    • redqueen

      That’s terrible Anonymous! sounds like that nurse had her own agenda.

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      • Anonymous

        Yeah I think you’re right. Perhaps that one nurse resented her job.

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  44. loves2bake

    Why do people assume that people who are ‘pro life’ are determined to limit women’s control over their bodies? It has nothing to do with controlling women – the focus is on protecting the lives of unborn children. At some point for everyone the life of the unborn child takes precedence over whether the mother wants the pregnancy or not, it’s just the gestation that changes.

    But while I don’t agree with abortion and would never consider it myself, regardless of the circumstances, I don’t agree with some of the measures that are being suggested – particularly the one which allows the doctor to lie to the mother. There are so many problems that that would create – both for the mother and the child.

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    • Faybian

      As the foetus is essentially a passenger of the mother’s, any moves to limit her reproductive rights will have an impact on her ability to control her body and life.

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      • loves2bake

        But as I said, the focus for pro-lifers is on the baby’s life. The reasons women are allowed to abort at 10 weeks are not legally valid at 32 weeks, even though the baby is still a passenger of the mother’s – the life of the baby takes precedence over her right to control her body. For pro-lifers, the line is drawn at conception, not at a later gestation.

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        • Faybian

          The foetus is at all times potentially alive, not actually alive at this stage, so I’m confused as to how it can take precedence over the mother, who is actually alive. I don’t agree with late term abortions unless absolutely necessary, but I don’t think there are absolutes anywhere.
          A friend of mine’s liver started to fail late in pregnancy, because of the pregnancy. It was only pre term delivery (spontaneous) that saved her life. A perfect example of maybe an abortion being necessary.

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          • Seahorse

            When you are talking about abortion the stakes are usually a lot higher for the foetus… it’s life is literally at stake. The life of the mother often isn’t. That’s where you can argue it’s rights take precedence.

            Your friends example is a great one, on where the life of the mother is at stake.

            I think there’s a lot of grey area about who’s rights ought to take precedence when.

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          • Deb

            So when is the baby alive instead of potentially alive?

            Or is this another issue like ‘wantedness’ that women are allowed to subjectively determine?

            It is always interesting to have people who advocate for abortion rights in early pregnancy but not late pregnancy try to articulate when exactly abortion becomes ‘not ok’.

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            • Faybian

              For me, the baby is a live baby when he/she is breathing on his/her own. After birth in other words. I’ve seen enough late term abortions for medical reasons to know how arduous they can be, so that is part of the reason I don’t like them. The other reason is that I find it ironic that after a certain age, drs will do everything they can to save an pre term baby, but babies that gestation can be aborted. So while I’m pro choice and find these laws ridiculous, I’m also uncomfortable with some aspects of abortion.
              Just my feelings and I believe I’m entitled to them.

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    • Anonymous

      If the babys’ life should take precedent over the mothers wishes, are you going to adopt every single baby from unwanted pregnancies? It is a womans body and a womans right to choose.

      Personally I don’t think I could ever terminate a pregnancy however I am extremely pro choice. I don’t have the right to force my views onto anyone else. No one should have the ability to force their views onto me, simple as that.

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    • Anonymous

      I find it very amusing that you claim you wouldn’t consider abortion no matter the circumstance. Most women backtrack on these kinds of statements once they are in a position of having to make that choice. I was always against abortion until I fell pregnant as a teenager. I really don’t think you’d know what you’d do until you’re in the thick of it.

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    • Seahorse

      I think the issue is that pro-life = pro-baby, and unfortunately the interests of that baby are not aligned with the interests of the mother. Therefore being pro-baby is subjugating the rights of the mother in those instances. I.e. limiting her rights.

      I’m not 100% in either camp, I think there are times when each takes precedence. It’s just a complete quagmire unravelling who is more important in each individual situation. I don’t believe you can say the mothers rights are ALWAYS more important, or vice versa.

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  45. Anon

    I think it’s great to have an U/S 24hrs before abortion. I am neither for or against abortion, it is up to the woman and the circumstance. I do believe however that a life is being taken and the mother needs to understand the enormity of this. By seeing their baby they make an informed decision. Knowing that their baby does have fingers, arm, legs and a heart beat. Rather than being in denial about what they are doing.

    The mother can then decide either way for herself.

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    • Katmag

      Anon I had one of the most heart breaking soul destroying experiences of my life some 12 weeks ago when I was forced to watch my baby on a screen whilst the ob catalogued all of the things wrong with her and all the reasons why she wasn’t going to survive even though she was alive then. Believe me that baby was very real to me and my decision to end that pregnancy will remain the worst decision I will ever have to make in my life so if you think that ultrasound was ‘great’ for me I would suggest you have not thought about all the circumstances that would put someone in the position of requiring a termination.

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      • Anon

        I’m so sorry Katmag that you had to go through something so terrible. I couldn’t even begin to imagine the pain you would have felt making that decision or seeing your little unwell bubba.

        You make a very good point. Maybe they should evaluate it case to case?

        Sending you lots of Love in what must be a very difficult time. I’m sure your little bubba is now your guardian angel. xxx

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      • Shell

        Katmag, sending you hope and strength. I went through this about 5 years ago and although the memories of that horrible day remain, they are easier to deal with. Be kind to yourself x

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      • ameliastclair

        Katmag my heart hurts for you. Hugs for you and kisses to your little angel in heaven xxxx

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      • Seahorse

        This makes me so mad. Who the hell was your OB? Don’t answer that, perhaps. But seriously what kind of client relationship did this person have to not gauge how sensitively to handle that? Horrified for you.

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        • Katmag

          I work in health so I had some understanding that they were doing this ultrasound to support the diagnosis I had already received from the amniocentesis and building a case because I was having what they call a late termination of pregnancy ( which is after 20 weeks) and there is a lot of paper work involved in that. Problem was no one told me I was having an ultrasound that day and I went alone instead of taking hubby and I felt like I had been rail roaded It was one of the most traumatic parts of this whole traumatic experience. I’m pretty stoic and I don’t think the ob really saw the effect it was having on me.

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    • Anonymous

      A woman already knows what a baby is and what pregnant is. The forced ultrasound is to guilt her into keeping the baby. But WHO is going to be with the mother at 3AM when the baby is screaming, when she can’t afford to put food onto the table or pay her grocery bills because of the enormous cost of a baby, when she can’t continue her own long term goals, including an education?

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    • Guest

      Because women are so stupid as to not know what they are doing. Oh! I’m terminating something that may one day be a life! I had no idea!

      Just more examples of conservatives seeking to infantilise women and cast them as intellectually inferior.

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    • ameliastclair

      Anon I respectfully disagree. I have confidence in women and do not think many women would terminate a pregnancy on a whim. Doctors will usually discuss all options with a mother if they decide that they do not want a child, including adoption and termination, so women are informed of their choices and make decisions regarding their pregnancy from an informed point of view. I personally feel the guilt the mother would experience from having been subjected to the ultrasound could lead to her continuing the pregnancy, despite already having decided termination is what would be best for her and her family. The mother could then be bringing a child into the world because of this guilt, not because it is what is best for her, her unborn child and her family. And if the woman were to terminate following the ultrasound, the negative mental health impacts that can arise from terminations would be exacerbated by guilt.

      The above is all assuming the mother choses to terminate for non-medical reasons. What if a woman choses to terminate a pregnancy because the foetus has a condition that is not compatible with life? Katmag gives us an example of this heartbreaking scenario. Having to endure an ultrasound and associated procedures prior to terminating a wanted pregnancy is unfathomable. My heart goes out to all women placed in this situation.

      I do however respect your opinion Anon and just wanted to add my thoughts. Thank you for commenting – life would be very boring if we all agreed with each other :)

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      • Loop

        Ameliastclair, the way I read it you and Anon actually agree … ! Anon is expressing disgust at women being guilted into continuing a pregnancy when it wouldn’t be the best thing for their lives overall, as I understood it.

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        • Tallulah

          Uhh, no, she (I assume she) is saying that women are probably in denial about what they’re doing, and looking at an ultrasound will put things in perspective for them, which results in everything Amelia talks about.

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    • Tallulah

      As this article said – this is an insult to women’s intelligence and responsibility. It sounds like you assume every woman has NOT already thought and deliberated and agonised over this decision, that it’s probably going to be one of the most, if not the most, important, difficult and traumatic thing she’ll ever have to do. Being forced to look at an ultrasound then shoved away for 24 hours before you can go through with it is bullying and manipulation. That is all.

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  46. Anon

    This article sickens me and makes me so glad that I live here in Australia where my body belongs to me and I get to make the decisions that impact on it. Let’s hope that Tony Abbott never sees the light of day as PM or Australia may be subject to laws similar to these.

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  47. Anon for this

    The Personhood USA movement must be the scariest. Not only for the medical procedures that could be performed withpout consent, but for the massive generation of children that could grow up unwanted, unloved, contributing to a fragile society with a multitude of problems and issues :(

    Who wants to bring a child into the world that might well be rejected and unloved? Such a lot of heartbreak to such an innocent little thing. It’s utterly different when you’re nothing but a little collection of cells.

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    • Guest

      Agree. I’m actually not all that keen in principle on abortion and think that a lot of pro choicers trivialise the moral and ethical issues involved. But on balance I’m in favour of it and one reason is that it’s good for society. There’s a fair amount of evidence that the massive drop in crime rates in the US over the past couple of decades were due to abortion. Put simply, the majority of abortions occur to women in social groups which disproportionately produce criminals.

      This of course is not welcome news to either the right or left so you don’t hear it very option. The right don’t like the idea that there might be something socially good about abortion. The left hate the idea that you can idenitfy criminals before they are born.

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      • Anon for this

        I have never heard that Guest, and would be interested in the evidence if you can point me there …

        I’m not sure that you can identify criminals before they are born, but I think you can identify the social circumstances in which raising any child with any genetics is likely to produce a criminal. I’m sure that criminality is produced via nurture rather than nature … to that extent I certainly agree.

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    • LaurenHC

      Not just that but ‘personhood’ laws would ban IVF, stem cell research and most forms of contraception- my IUD would make me a criminal, my triplet friends would never have been born…

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  48. shan

    sounds quite literally ‘unbelievable’. scary stuff.

    reminds me of the book ‘the handmaid’s tale’ (or something like that, not sure if I’ve remembered the title right!)

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    • Anonymous

      “The Handmaid’s Tale” by Margaret Atwood is a brillant book and a frightening view of the future when women are forced to be breeders for wealthy men and their wives.

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      • ...

        That is exactly what went through my head when I read the article too.

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      • TLeaves

        was that made into a movie? I think I saw a movie based on this book.. maybe with Patricia Richardson in it?

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  49. KMR

    A lot of comments to the effect ‘thank god Australia is not like America’. True, but coming from 8 years away in Europe, Australia seems pretty backwards too. Eg, attitudes towards homebirth. Supported and considered normal and desirable in Europe. Not here. Makes me angry that the govt have made it hard to have a homebirth and the general public seem to have bought into the propaganda that its weird and dangerous too. B.S. What about my right to birth where I feel safest? Other countries (backed up by facts) consider it a safe and sensible first choice and a win-win for the govt since hospitals are freed up for those who really need it.

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    • Faybian

      There are pilot programs beginning and hopefully they will continue. I just hope they are strictly regulated and with strict guideline, policies and procedures. As well as cooperation between hospitals and midwives. We need to not have cowboys/girls operating home births. A twin pregnancy, breech pregnancy or vbac after 2 Caesars are in no way low risk births and really shouldn’t be attempted at home IMO. There are instances of women and their midwives attempting to deliver these sort of births at home.
      In any case this topic is on pregnancy and reproduction, not just labour.

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      • KMR

        -The topic is on the government trying to control women and what they do with their own bodies. In any case, a decision for homebirth also involves the antenatal care leading up to it and is perfectly relevant here
        - My phrase “freeing up hospitals for those who really needed” was refering to higher risk cases such as those you mentioned.

        I don’t really understand where you are coming from.

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        • Faybian

          It just felt like your comment was off topic and didn’t acknowledge the pilot programs for home birth that are running in SA and WA. There’s a scary number of home birth advocates that actually don’t see those examples I pointed out a high risk. That’s what I was getting at.

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          • KMR

            OK Faybian. I’m in NSW, nothing here of those programs of which you speak. But hey, even if I was going off topic (which I don’t believe I was) what would be wrong with that? I scratch my head at the way homebirth is such an controversial/emotive topic in this country. Its truly no big deal elsewhere.

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            • Faybian

              We don’t have those in Qld, but there are pilot programs here called midwifery group practices, where the midwife takes over complete peri natal care of low risk women, who deliver at hospital, in much the same manner as an obstetrician. I believe they are happening elsewhere too.
              I don’t know why others feel its so wrong, but I think Australia’s population is spread out and not as close to services as desirable. I wouldn’t be game as a midwife to attend a homebirth in our suburbs. Things go wrong very quickly.
              I feel abortion is a heated enough topic without bringing up another emotive topic:homebirth. It would be even worse if someone posted about immunisation.

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    • Deb

      ah yes.. in Australia you only have the right to decide how and when to end your pregnancy with abortion…in Victoria, right up to full term.. but you cannot choose where and how you will give birth to your ‘wanted’ baby. Just another example of the hypocrisy surrounding abortion.

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  50. Anonymous

    Can this happen in Australia? Well if you want to test it vote for Tony Abbott. Our opposition leader, who opinion polls are favoring strongly is against abortion, is against sex education and practices a religion that does not believe in a woman’s right to choose. He has grouped D&C after a failed miscarriage with abortion, he is dangerous. I am not a huge Julia Gillard fan and I do not agree with all the things she has done however when people talk about how they dislike her voice and other such ridiculous notions it worries me. The women of Australia need to think before they vote, its one thing to comment on how appalling the Americans are but you need to back it up. If you don’t want issues like this arising in Australia don’t vote for Tony Abbott.

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    • Never. This would never happen in Australia, Tony Abbott leader or not. For a start, I highly doubt he agrees with any of the above and I doubt he would support such ridiculous and oppressive legislation.

      Secondly, he would be crucified by the public, the party, the opposition and the media to the point where he would have to resign if he even dared suggest any of the above.

      I totally disagree. Tony Abbott is practically a small *L* liberal compared to conservative republicans.

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    • redqueen

      That’s why I’ll never vote for the ‘mad monk’, he can’t be trusted NOT to interfere.

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    • I can do anon too

      He’s against abortion from his own personal perspective. He respects that a woman has the right to choose if she wants to and would not bring in laws like this. What has he specifically said that indicates he would?

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      • Dee of Adelaide

        I don’t recall Abbott ever calling himself pro-choice. In fact my memory (not always reliable) is that he has referred to himself as pro-life.

        And as someone in the grips of their 5th miscarriage D and C whilst he was on tv referring in outrage to the 100,000 abortions medicare paid for, including mine which werent, there is no way I want that that man within fifty feet of a legislative majority.

        Attempts to restrict choice in Australia are very possible and we should be ever vigilant against them.

        The last time Abbott had powers he overrode the TGA approval for RU486 for a time. Something no minister at the time had ever done for any other drug.

        What makes you think these things can’t happen here?

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        • essessesse

          That’s right. It’s as though he thought the only use for RU486 was for a planned termination.

          Stupid, narrow minded man. Our next PM, ladies and gentlemen.

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      • redqueen

        In early 2006, a private members bill was introduced in the Senate to strip the health minister of their power of veto over abortifacients. This bill was approved by both houses of parliament and passed in March 2006, removing the veto power from the health minister and granting authority to the Therapeutic Goods Administration.[b] Health Minister Tony Abbott and previous ministers wouldn’t allow it to be made available prior to the vote.[/b]

        Abbott responded to the vote by calling for funding of alternative counselling to pregnant women through church-affiliated groups.

        The above is from the wikipedia article on abortion in Australia.

        I vividly remember Abbott being interviewed on the 7.30 report after this bill was passed and he went into a rant about scientists wanting to play Frankenstein etc. I already disliked him over his stance on RU486; he ignored the international research on the drug and refused to let the TGA assess it and do their job. It totally put me off him after that.

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    • Oh please

      Some ‘Today Tonight’-level analysis going on here. Very disappointing.

      Just because Tony Abbott may be personally against abortion does not mean that we’ll see legislation to that effect. Tony Abbott is the leader of a political party in a Westminster system of government, not a dictator. Case in point: if personal views counted, we may have seen a more liberal approach to the definition of “marriage” coming from our dear PM who herself is “living in sin”.

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      • redqueen

        And yet he refused to let the TGA assess the drug while he was health minister until he was overrode in parliament, so, yes his personal views affected his ability to do his job.

        Regarding the ‘safety concerns’ over RU486, the CMO at the time later admitted that he’d only been asked to look at a narrow part of the research: on whether women in remote areas would be at risk. They totally ignored the rest of the research findings.

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        • Oh please

          “Until he was overrode in parliament…” – that’s my point (although I think it ought to be “overriden”).

          I have never said that personal views won’t affect the way he does his job (whatever that means), but rather that personal views of one individual, party leader or otherwise, do not result in legislative change. It is not as simple as that.

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          • redqueen

            but rather that personal views of one individual, party leader or otherwise, do not result in legislative change.

            Yes they do. The carbon tax. No one voted for it nor was it was put to the people via a referendum.

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            • Oh please

              Why would it be put to the people via a referendum? A referendum is reserved for Constitutional change.

              But whatever. Let’s use your example of the carbon tax…

              It will be put to the people at the next general election where you, as a voter, have the right to express your views about that piece of legislation, or any others for that matter. Prior to the legislation’s enactment, you were able to contact your local member of parliament to discuss your concerns or otherwise about any proposed legislative changes. This is the way that representative democracy works.

              In any case, I think you’ll find that the carbon tax is supported by more than just Julia Gillard, so again it’s not an example of ONE political leader’s personal views resulting in legislative change. And even if it were an example that led to legislative change, it has the ability to be corrected at election time (or potentially by the High Court if found to be unconstitutional for any reason). This whole “checks and balances” thing is another feature of our system of government.

              I really do suggest that you do some reading on our constitutional arrangements so you have a better understanding of what you should realistically be worried about. In the interim, I’m happy for you to prove me wrong with a better example of your theory than the one you provided above.

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