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Screen shot 2012 02 21 at 8.33.54 AM 380x481 Do you know what youre eating?

Part of the advertising campaign from Voiceless

Not all chickens are born equal. Nor are pigs, nor are sheep, for that matter.

That’s the bald truth of the matter. And the problem with this, aside from health issues for the animals themselves, is that consumers have no idea where their produce is coming from or how it got there. They think they do, but they don’t.

Even if animals are raised well, there’s no guarantee they will meet a humane end as the latest round of abattoir cruelty scandals hit the media earlier this month.

And there’s little in the way of peace-of-mind to distinguish between those producers and graziers who do do the right thing and those who game the system and make their animals suffer.

All this comes as animal welfare organisation Voiceless launches a new advertising campaign to raise awareness about the realities of factory farming in Australia. The commercials come with the added star-power of Hugo Weaving and Abbie Cornish.

Watch:

And Abbie Cornish has this to say:

“Ultimately, each of us must respond to animal cruelty in our own way and the response is often a journey, where the starting point is learning the truth that lies behind your fork,” said Dana Campbell, Voiceless CEO.

That’s because ‘farm to fork’ labels are misleading at best. So, let’s get a feel for what we’re dealing with.

Raising animals in Australia

Chickens

Industry chickens are bred for two reasons and two reasons only. For their eggs, or for their meat.

Battery hens, the machine-line egg producers, are almost universally assured a life without sunlight or open spaces. Many are kept in cages four-apiece with less than an A4 sized piece of paper to live in, according to welfare groups. There are 11 million of these battery hens in Australia.

The birds are animals and they have animal urges. Things like dust-bathing, perching, ‘the very strong desire’ to lay their eggs in private spots. None of this happens for a battery hen. As many as one in six live with broken bones as their cage conditions weaken their skeletons.

When their egg laying rate inevitably slows, the hens are disposed of, around the age of 18 months. Male chicks don’t even make it that far. They are gassed or otherwise ‘ground up’ when they are born.

Meat chickens are a slightly different story. There are more than 400 million in Australia, raised to stack on the meat at three times their usual growth rate and slaughtered at five weeks. The forced weight-gain often results in the animals being crippled under the strain, or breaking bones altogether.

It is legal to grow the birds in sheds with as many as 20 per square metre. It’s a confinement which leads to disease, heat stroke and heart failure in the cramped conditions.

The National Farmers Federation disagrees with these statements. We asked for a response:

“The chicken meat industry is governed by a government, industry and RSPCA-endorsed Model Code of Practice. Under this Code, no cages are the size of an A4 piece of paper. Single bird cages are rare, and are about the size of two A4 pieces of paper. Modern cages in commercial production measure up to the size of 20 pieces of A4 paper, while in the majority of meat chicken sheds, the chickens have access to the entire floor – around 12-15 metres wide by 80-140 metres long.

Australian cage egg farmers have invested up to $500 million to upgrade their cage farms so that they comply with new legislation across the States that came into effect in 2008.  Industry bodies do not support egg farmers who do not comply with the new legislation.

It is important to remember that hens are social animals and choose to cluster together.

This statement [that meat chickens cannot handle extra weight] is completely untrue – the conditions they are reared in do not lead to bone breakages due to weakened bones or weight. Claims that chickens bred for meat are too big for their owns legs or cardiovascular systems are simply wrong. It simply doesn’t make sense for farmers to breed birds with physical problems that never make it to market.

In fact, meat chickens have been selectively bred over the past 60 years to be more efficient at transforming feed into meat, as well as other important characteristics such as strong skeletal development and disease resistance.”

Dairy calves

There’s a darker side to milk. Dairy cows are kept in a state of near-constant pregnancy, that they might produce the milk we’re used to having with our cereal. But the ‘poddy calves’ or ‘bobby calves’ are surplus to requirements and some 700,000 are destroyed each year and sold for meat. That would be the veal some of us love to order at restaurants.

The calves are taken from their mothers after a day and trucked away, sometimes going without food for a day at a time.

Then they are slaughtered.

Beef Cattle

Cattle are generally raised free-to-roam on large slabs of land in Australia, but associated animal husbandry practices are not always humane.

The RSPCA says fire branding (hot pokers that are pushed into the rump of the beast) is an ‘unacceptable’ form of branding but this does not mean it doesn’t happen.

Australia’s  huge geography means that most welfare problems for beef cattle arise in their transport to abattoirs and conditions before and during slaughter. The animals are held in feedlots before slaughter which are far more confined and can stress cattle out if they are handled incorrectly, not fed properly or exposed to extreme heat and weather. Feedlots make up between 30 and 40% of the beef market.

Pigs

We covered this issue on Mamamia but it’s worth recapping.

Pigs have the intelligence of a toddler many are subjected to factory farming where they are given no room to move and, you know, be pigs. Piglets have their teeth cut or filed back to ‘prevent damage’ to the sows from which they suckle. Those same sows are confined to tiny spaces for 16 weeks, unable to turn around or make themselves comfortable. When pregnant they are moved to an even smaller farrowing crate, immediately before giving birth.

The National Farmers Federation responded:

“People often ask why sows are kept in individual housing. It’s because pigs can be aggressive animals and aggression between sows increases in the early stage of pregnancy. During this vulnerable time, individual housing is the best way to ensure sows are getting food and are totally protected from bullying, bites, injuries and the increased chance of miscarrying their babies.

Similarly, farrowing crates are used to protect piglets. The average sow weighs over 250 kilograms – equivalent to three standard fridges. During the short period new piglets are suckling, they are extremely vulnerable to being crushed to death by their mother, so the temporary use of farrowing crates play a crucial role in protecting piglets from being crushed.

On some farms, sows have piglets in a free range environment, and once weaned, the piglets are moved into group housing, eco sheds or shelters. This is for a number of reasons: it helps protect the pigs from predators and from the elements of the weather (pigs suffer from sunburn, and are very susceptible to extreme temperatures), and ensures that the pigs receive the nutrition they need as their feed can be monitored.

Of course, the Australian pork industry recognises that there is always room for improvement in housing systems and practices and that is why the industry has spent millions each year on research and much more on innovation and on-farm improvements to get the balance right.

Strong progress has been made and innovations to improve welfare are gaining ground. A deadline has been imposed for farmers to cut the maximum time a sow is allowed to stay in a stall by more than half, to just the most vulnerable first 6 weeks of pregnancy. The pork industry is also introducing a Certified Free Range certification under its existing on-farm quality assurance program, so that customers are guaranteed that the pork they’re buying has been raised outdoors for its entire life.”

Kangaroos

Kangaroos are shot and killed in huge numbers for their meat and skins, but not always ‘humanely’ as is required by the industry code of practice.

As many as four cent are not killed with a head-shot as required and there are no figures to suggest how many are maimed and survive.

Food labelling

Believe it or not, ‘free range’ doesn’t mean anything unless it’s a label slapped on to the side of a carton of eggs.

According to law firm Swaab:

“Australia has consumer protection laws and food safety laws which cover many aspects of food labelling. However, problematically, there is no federal legislation requiring farming systems for animal-derived food products to be identified on product labels.

Consequently, the term “free range” is not subject to any legislative definition. Any restrictions on the use of the term are currently limited to egg carton labelling. It is therefore left to food producers, animal rights groups and the industry to determine what “free range” means for them. Generally, consumers assume that the term “free range” indicates that animals are not kept in close confinement, have access to the outside and are treated humanely. However, the term is open to broad interpretation and can easily be manipulated by producers and marketers.”

It’s actually easier to be surer of organic food, as it’s designed to meet strict international standards even though our domestic standards may be a little lacking. If you’re after an organic supplier nearby, try this website.

We’ll give the final word to the National Farmer’s Federation:

“For Australian farmers, their animals are their living, so looking after their welfare is not only the right thing to do, it also makes good business sense. Australian farmers are committed to ensuring their animals are healthy and well cared for.

Farmers take animal welfare very seriously. There is strict legislation governing animal production and welfare in each state and territory, under the prevention of cruelty to animals, or state animal welfare acts, and this is enforced by the RSPCA or the state or territory Department of Primary Industries (or equivalent).

As with all things, we recognise that there is a need for continual improvement. As such, there’s a jointly developed strategy to outline directions for future improvements in the welfare of animals – this is called the Australian Animal Welfare Strategy and was developed by the Australian Government, state and territory governments, industry and the community, including animal welfare organisations like the RSPCA.

In addition, there are also model codes of practice for the welfare of animals, as well as a new series of nationally agreed standards and guidelines that are currently being developed. These standards will be legislated by the states and territories, and these governments are currently working to implement the first of these, around the land transport of livestock, in conjunction with farming organsiations and the RSPCA.

In short, the animal welfare practices used by Australian farmers are governed by law, codes of practice, and shortly, standards and guidelines. These are developed in conjunction with vets, regulators and welfare groups and are enforceable by law, policed by state authorities and backed by the threat of prosecution and severe penalties, including jail terms.

As a result, we believe Australian farmers adhere to animal welfare practices that are not only agreed, but approved by animal welfare organisations like the RSPCA.”

What do you think? How much do you think about where your food comes from, do you care? Or is ignorance bliss?

Disclaimer: Rick is a carnivore who was raised on a cattle station.

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159 Comments so far

  1. Peter

    Mammamia on the payroll of voicelsss?

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  2. Mrs B

    It’s good to see a lively debate where a lot of posters are willing to consider the evidence put forward by others. Kudos for a largely respectful atmosphere in a discussion that often goes haywire.
    (I’m vegan; glad to see some others on here too).

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  3. Janelle

    I just ate chicken for dinner, now I feel quite sick….

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  4. Janine

    I care enough to have become a Piscatarian (hey, baby steps!) as my new years resolution. I can’t reconcile being horrified at bear bile farming in Vietnam whilst at the same time scoffing a barbecue chicken that probably had a miserable existence before it landed on my plate. I’ve only bought organic free range eggs for at least the last decade and can’t understand the ignorance/insensitivity of people who buy battery eggs. Hasn’t everyone seen those terrible images?

    Not only that but there’s a raft of health considerations also – chickens are routinely fed antibiotics and other nasties to ward off the diseases they may get from living in such an unnatural state. Animal fat is the main source of bad cholesterol and animal protein is calorie dense. As you get older you need much less of both. I don’t believe people need to eat meat, I think that is a line we have been fed (pardon the pun) for years by a very powerful industry. A diet rich in grains, legumes, fruit and vege, eggs and some low fat dairy will provide you with all the nutrients you need.

    Believe me, I love food and I loved meat – there are some chicken curries that I’m really going to miss but since i’ve been doing this, I’ve dropped a couple of kilos, my cholesterol has lowered 0.5 points and I’ve got heaps more energy. The biggest bonus however is my frame of mind and knowing that in some small way I’m taking a stand against the abuse of animals.

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  5. chrise126

    My favorite food are vegetables, i have no idea where the meet come from.

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  6. Julie F

    I found this article – like all articles on animal cruelty – quite difficult to make sense of. For eg in the first section – where was the info before the Federation’s response sourced from and which is the truth? Confused,

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  7. YoungDietitian

    On the one hand, the producers of animals used as a food commodity don’t want us to eat less animal products, but at the same time throw the blame for over crowded farm environments and the consequential poor treatment of the animals back onto the consumers lust for these food products. The only real answer is for people to eat less animal products and replace with plant protein sources, for the benefit of their own health, the environment and the unfortunate animals.
    I get clients all the time saying ‘But don’t we have to eat meat to survive?’, the short answer is no. It’s a simple enough question to figure out on our own as vegetarians don’t drop dead after adopting a plant based diet. We have a desire rather than a real need for meat.

    The same wingeing producers of meat products have marketed their products so well that the average person doesn’t even know that vegetables contain protein!

    An easy way to remember it: if you see it advertised on television you usually need only a little of it or in the case of junk foods none at all.

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    • Diana The Huntress

      Eeeeexactly. When people see ad campaigns which are supposedly “for the community” (for example the promotion of the food pyramid, the Dairy Good campaign etc) many don’t think to research who stands to benefit financially from pushing such products. Also have a look at which industries benefit the government/economy. You’ll find morality/ethics guidelines more *ahem* flexible if the bottom line benefits the economy. Coincidence, no?

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  8. Phoodietweets

    So interesting…..

    In a hurry but have 2 things to say –

    1) I’m currently reading “eating animals” …… Highly recommended….

    2) if in Sydney check out GRUB butcher ( one at Potts point the other in Vaucluse) ask for Dom. I did a review on them you can read that here http://phoodie.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/g-r-u-b-grass-roots-urban-butchery/

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    • Yes, I'm a vegan.

      Phoodietweets: Not a stab but a legitimate question for you: How can you highly recommend “Eating Animals” and then in the same post guide readers towards a butcher – when the entire point of “Eating Animals” is that the butcher is not required or preferred?

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      • Phoodietweets

        Hey there YIAV,
        I am currently reading EA and whilst I am still eating meat it is the first book that I have read that has made me start to REALLY think about if I will continue to do that or not…. I love books that REALLY make you think…..
        In the meantime, I will continue to buy my meat from places that ethically source it.

        :)

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  9. kem17

    Diana, perhaps you should consider hunting for food. Responsible hunters sight their targets, take only clear shots that will bring down the animal quickly and humanely and take only what they are legally allowed to hunt. Animals taken responsibly by hunters for the personal consumption of their family and friends do not suffer the way domestic animals that are slaughtered in an abattoir do.

    Animals bred for the table and kept in artificial conditions that are usually cramped and unsanitary suffer more during their short lives in captivity than animals that live naturally in the wild and die quickly and humanely at the hands of a skilled hunter. And as most hunters take only introduced species (e.g. rabbits, deer, etc) they have a positive impact on the native environment.
    Nature is what it is, and any person who is not a vegetarian, vegan, etc eats every day animals that died at the hands of a human one way or another. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

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    • Yes, I'm a vegan.

      Kem17: You raise excellent points. (Although even the most skilful hunter will have many injurious misses and otherwise leave behind distraught parents/offspring).

      But would it not be better to recommend living vegan rather than becoming a skillful hunter? Surely the former is much easier and still infinitely more humane.

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    • Diana The Huntress

      Why on earth would I do that? While I concede that hunting is definitely more humane than factory farming I’m perfectly happy being vegan. I don’t feel my life is particularly lacking because it doesn’t have meat in it. Besides, I don’t believe it’s my right to take a life if I don’t need to for sustenance, which I don’t.

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      • Diana The Huntress

        And I never claimed to be perfect or “without sin”. Far from it. But I don’t need to contribute to animal cruelty, so I don’t.

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  10. tanlee

    I do think about where my food comes from and try to buy both Australian (no cheap labour) and cruelty-free but I find it impossible to work out the latter due to all the mixed messages I get from the labels and in the media. I definitely don’t know what I’m eating.

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    • Yes, I'm a vegan.

      Trying to determine what is “cruelty-free” is like stabbing in the dark. Misrepresentative labels and marketing mean nothing. “Cruelty-free” is a fantasy – only good for giving one a tingly feeling that they might be doing something good (and emptying their wallet faster in the process).

      The *only* *truly* possible cruelty-free approach is to stop animal use completely. Yes – that means living vegan. It’s not that hard.

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      • Diana The Huntress

        That’s the thing. It’s *not* hard. It seems it when you’re first starting out, but once you get used to it’s fine. And the more people who do it, the wider the variety of vegan products which will appear on the market. Demand creates supply. I loved meat, loved it. Bacon, chicken, you name it. But now animals are just not food to me. Your palate and your outlook changes. And it’s not all bland rabbit food, either. Google vegan cakes/cookies and you will see.

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  11. backagain

    Oh my God. This is just so terrible, I couldnt’ read it all I’m sorry. I’m so upset.

    I’m going to really be more mindful. Thank you for writing about this and for caring about these animals without a voice.

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  12. alyssakt

    Hi Rick, I think you’ll find you’re an “omnivore” ;)

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  13. MissV

    The first ad has no effect on me whatsoever. the second a little bit more. but i’m so used to shock tactics that they don’t really register on me. Having said that I am concerned for animal welfare but feel that the issue is so large that i have no idea where to possibly start. I don’t believe that i need to become a vegetarian or vegan to show that i don’t support animal cruelty but other than those options, i don’t know what else to do.
    I don’t earn alot so find that price is often the main factor when it comes to choosing food although i would love the main factor to be how humane and ethical it is i just can’t at this point in my life.

    xxxmissvxxx.wordpress.com

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  14. Callisto922

    Thank you for this article Rick. These are the reasons, and more, of why I’m a vegetarian. As Australians we are thought of as compassionate people who love and take care of everything we’re proud of. If we’re so proud of our lamb and other meats (the whole lamb thing for Australia Day), why not be proud of a humane slaughter practice or how we treat the animals in the first place?

    Everyone has their view on meat and their diets – to each his own. Rick’s article isn’t about trying to change you into not eating meat. The article is about the facts on how animals are treated so that they can end up on your plate. For all those who are meat eaters but say “while I believe animal welfare should be a top priority” when it comes this issue of the meat industry, are you actually doing anything about it? Are you signing petitions, sending letters and talking to politicians, joining protests, becoming a member of animal welfare groups?

    I’m a vegetarian and animal welfare activist – AND PROUD OF IT. I’m also an everyday person who works in an office and dresses normally and takes care of my family and friends – you’d never pick me to be a vego.

    If you can’t hack the reality, don’t read the article.

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    • Diana The Huntress

      If you’re a vegetarian for ethical reasons, how do you reconcile dairy farming? That’s a genuine question, I’m not being a smartarse. But I am curious.

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      • M

        Got the facts on Milk? also known as “The Milk Documentary”, should be an eye opener, if you’re curious about milk and the ethics behind it.

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        • Callisto922

          It’s a good point. I find that I don’t tend to drink a lot of milk or dairy products, including chocolate (after reading some books on chocolate, I’ve stayed away from them!). I DO however like coffee, and that has milk in…it’s difficult, because I find myself being a hypocrit in this instance. I know the terrible things that happen to dairy cows and their babies all too well – I’ve only been a vegetarian since mid-last year (health problems prevented me previously from honing in on that goal) so slowly but surely I’ll eventually move to no dairy products at all. Rice milk I’ve heard is a GREAT alternative. Soy milk doesn’t taste so nice for me.

          It’s so hard to love animals and try your hardest to do everything right by them because everything I do I feel like I just can’t win the hypocracy (oh dear, spellcheck!).

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          • Diana The Huntress

            Cool. You’ll get there- I was vegetarian for ages before I became vegan. It gets easier as you go along. :)

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          • Jay

            Try almond milk it is really lovely. I like you recently became a vegetarian and only buy organic meat for my family. I still do eat and drink some dairy which I am ok with. I am doing more than a lot of people and am making an effort to learn more about where my food comes from.

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      • Anonymous

        Living in Tasmania I buy Elgaar milk products and tend to avoid dairy otherwise. Elgaar goes as far as letting their milkers live out their natural life (one died at 38!) on the farm, regardless of their ability to produce milk. Their approaches to the environment and sustainability are also incredible. You can buy their stuff in Melbourne too, and I am sure there are similarly ethical producers in other states. They wrote a response to the ethical consumer guide that sets out their practices. Whilst they do still ‘send off’ their male calves, they don’t do so until they are weaned. It’s not perfect but I think they’re well worth supporting. http://www.ethical.org.au/articles/?article=10

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        • Miss mel

          Thanks for the website reference, I’m in Qld and been looking for ethical suppliers. I’ll travel if I need too as I think it’s also important to support producers who do genuinely care for their animals. Surely it would be more costly for them even tho they are doing the right thing?

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  15. Diana The Huntress

    There is no such thing as ethical factory farming. The only way to make sure you are not contributing to animal cruelty is to go vegan. I know it’s hard, I resisted for years. But, to be honest, once you’re used to it it’s not that difficult. I’ve been vegetarian for three years and vegan for three months and I doubt very much I’ll ever go back. :)

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  16. T.O.M.S.

    Well as an Organic Butcher I certainly agree that you ask more questions of your butcher, mind you in my experience a lot of them will tell you what you want to hear!
    In regards to Organics there is a huge focus on Animal Welfare, in terms of the stocking density i.e. the amount of livestock per acre etc and also through the slaughtering process. Shrouded chutes in which the animals are led to slaughter, so that they cannot see animals being processed in front of them, are common place, also the animals are slaughtered overnight when they are at their least stressed.
    There is also a requirement for Organic livestock to not be transported over vast distances / times to slaughter.
    In terms of ‘Free-Range’ chicken, unfortunately the waters are very muddied and there is no clear guidelines re Free Roam, Barn Raised, Open Range bla bla bla, what does it all mean?? Certified Organic chicken is a guarantee that all chickens are bred, raised and slaughtered ethically. Here’s a link to a “Free-Range” Chicken Farm that’s for sale and is currently contracted to Baiada, owner of the Lilydale Free-Range chicken brand. My particular favourite photos are on pages 5 & 6. Free-Range hey??

    http://m.realestate.com.au/propertydetails.ds?id=7323025&theme=mrea

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    • Diana The Huntress

      T.O.M.S, obviously as a vegan and animal rights activist (not animal welfare- there is a difference) I disagree with what you do. But I genuinely respect your commitment to reducing cruelty within that context and believe you believe it’s humane. But I’d like to ask a few questions- first-off, how is milk-farming in any way humane? The milk is for calves (which were born solely so the mother can provide more milk for the human consumption industry), which are isolated from their mothers extremely early, often starved, then sent off to become veal. People don’t seem to realise that the dairy industry is just as cruel, which is why ethical vegetarianism doesn’t make sense. In terms of the shrouded chutes- animals have acute perception. Do you think they can’t sense/smell the death around them? I’m not trying to attack you or be melodramatic. I just think there is massive cognitive dissonance around these issues because people don’t want to look at them. Why is one animal’s life more important than another’s? And why does our taste or preference override another being’s whole life and right to experience joy or freedom, rights we take for granted?

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      • T.O.M.S.

        Hi Diana, I certainly can’t speak for the Dairy industry as i have very little understanding of this, but I definitely appreciate your points about the contradiction in Animal Welfare based ethical Vegetarianism. Yes you’re probably right about the perception of animals in the slaughterhouse in that they are aware of whats ahead. I guess Organics is not about removing the whole element of slaughter but minimising the ‘stress’, it may only be a small difference but I believe it’s certainly a step forward and is a giant leap forward from what goes on in a lot of conventional slaughterhouses in this land.

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    • elle

      Where is your butchery?? :)

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  17. Ethical Eater

    Ethical Produce Supplier:

    http://www.urbanfoodmarket.com.au

    Marrickville, Sydney

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  18. Home Heating

    Thank you amazing blog, do you have twitter, facebook or something similar where i can follow your blog

    Sandro Heckler

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  19. Ethical Eater

    Worth reading: The Omnivores Dilemma, The Ethics of what we eat, Eating Animals and Skinny Bitch.

    Worth seeing: Food Inc. , Fast Food Nation, Earthlings.

    Sydney Supplier:

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  20. WA meat lover

    If you’re in WA, check out http://www.dandaraganorganicbeef.com.au
    it’s certified organic beef. And it really is tastier!

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  21. ABC123

    I’m sorry but the articles about Aussie farming on Mamamia infuriate me. They always seem to take such a negative view of farmers in Australia. While I belive animal welfare should be of top priority and enforced with the full force of the law I am sick of reading alarmist comments from people who are keen to paint all farming practices as cruel and unneccessary.

    People will eat meat forever. I have no desire to be a vegetarian/vegan and accept that animals die for me to eat meat.

    While I am sure there are farmers and food producers out there who do not act as they should I think they would be few and far between. The vast majority, I believe, would follow regulations very carefully. It is often their livelihood after all. It should be up to the appropriate government or regulatory body to set and enforce rules which ensure animal welfare. The onus shouldnt be on the consumer to source ‘ethical’ food.

    Back to the farming practices. To mention a few some of which I have seen first hand. They are a neccessary part of farming and animal management. I think some people have gotten far too emotional about things and blown them out of proportion.

    Eg. – Castration of young bulls is so they cannot breed with the other females not just because the farmers want to be cruel. It does invlove a blade and I have seen it done in less than 10 seconds by a skilled person.
    - De horning is also necessary as I have seen a cows horn growing into its eye and i know what the cow would prefer.
    - Muesling of sheep prevents fly-blown, maggot infested rear ends.
    These are only a couple of practices I have had experience with. My point is they are always carried out for the animals welfare. Not just to be cruel.

    I am not attacking Mamamia for this article. It has many good points I just think the comments here are not addressing the issues like they could. Of course there are many improvements that could be made. For example I dont see why laying hens need to be kept in tiny quarters. It wouldnt take much to give them some decent space to roam and fresh air.

    Maybe a bit more information about what actually goes on in farming without the overblown dramatics is all I am asking for. I suspect most people who read this website are city people who don’t have much experience with farms and farm animals. So I would ask all the farmers out there to speak up and spread more information.

    Sorry for the long post. It has been building up in me all morning. :)

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    • M

      “People will eat meat forever. ”

      Rape, murder, paedophilia, incest, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc, will all also exist forever. But just because they will, does that mean we shouldn’t fight to try and stop these injustices?

      I am under no illusion that most people here on this forum, and in the wider community, don’t think there’s anything wrong with eating meat. But, I know that 7 years ago, I also thought like them and now I don’t. I also know that the vast majority of vegans that I personally know are all relatively new vegans, i.e. they became vegan in the last 5 years. Those turning to veganism are coming from all walks of life. Only ten years ago, veganism would have been something that was reserved solely for those who could be called hippies and probably lived in Byron Bay. Not these days! All of the vegans I know are middle class people, usually with children, who live in suburbia. Not a dreadlock to be seen amongst them! (No offence is meant to those who wear dreadlocks; I’m merely trying to illustrate how the typical vegan has changed in a very short time).

      Humanity has undergone an unprecedented change in the last 100 years ago. Think about basic human rights, that we take for granted everyday, and how young they really are. Think about how less than 200 years ago, I as a white person, would have had a right to OWN another human being. To use and treat as I saw fit. And if I spoke out against slavery, you would not only have been within your legal and moral right to say the following, but the vast majority of society would have supported you:

      “While I believe slave welfare should be of top priority and enforced with the full force of the law I am sick of reading alarmist comments from people who are keen to paint all slavery practices as cruel and unnecessary.
      People will have slaves forever. I have no desire to be an abolitionist and accept that slaves will die for me to have the products that I need. (I.e., cotton, tobacco, etc)

      While I am sure there are slave owners out there who do not act as they should, but I think they would be few and far between. The vast majority, I believe, would follow regulations very carefully. It is often their livelihood after all. It should be up to the appropriate government or regulatory body to set and enforce rules, which ensure slave welfare. The onus shouldn’t be on the consumer to source ‘ethical’ products.”

      Please don’t think I’m trying to be dramatic just for the sake of it. Step back a little and try and imagine how crazy those first abolitionists would have sounded to the rest of society, only 200 years ago.

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      • ABC123

        With all due respect this is just the sort of dramatics I am talking about. Comparing rape, murder and slavery to eating meat is over-dramatisation if ever I heard it.

        I don’t want to get into the argument of whether people should eat meat at all. I think humans should be able to eat meat and if you don’t for whatever reason we are never going to agree on it.

        The article is about farming practices and I posted originally because of my dismay at people who were only focused on pushing their anti-meat eating views (can’t think of a better term sorry) with dramatic comments condeming farmers for what they do.

        We need to put the focus on keeping farming practices with the times and improving treatment of animals while still allowing farmers to make a living.

        I am all for more free-range farming, less factory-farm style farming and would encourage people to eat less meat if it means standards can be lifted. I do however stand by saying we will eat meat forever. That is if we can keep it ethical and not let animal welfare standards slip for the sake of production amounts.

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        • M

          I would like to clarify that I don’t blame farmers. They provide a product that is in high demand. The suppliers should hardly ever be blamed. If a willing market didn’t exist, then neither would the products.

          As they say, money makes the world go around. If we want something to stop then we need to speak with our dollar. As long as the world has an insatiable appetite for animal products, animals will suffer. Business, any business, will changes its pratices the minute it become comericially viable for them to do so.

          We all bitch and moan about big business and how they mistreat animals, people and the envirnoment, yet we are the ones paying them to do so.

          Take for example the iPhone controvery this week. Everyone is outraged at Apple’s treatment of its workers, yet we all want an iphone, and at the cheapest possible price. If everyone took a moral stance and decided not to buy an apple product until they changed their way, how long to you think it would be before they change their ways? We all want to take the moral high ground and condem the producers but none ones to pay more or be inconvenienced.

          So, no I don’t condem the farmers, they’re only doing what WE pay them to do.

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        • Al

          I’ve spent a lot of time on farms (cattle and sheeps only) and I’ve never seen cruelty. I’m comfortable eating meat from reputable butcher. People owning and working on farms have a pretty clear idea about what constitutes cruelty and the only issue I’ve heard some farmers and shearers uncomfortable with superfine wool breeding, not something that appears on animal rights activists radar. But the rest of the alleged cruelty just sounds like hype.

          Also, it’s not okay to extrapolate from American and European farming practices to Australian ones. I would go vegetarian in America – no fish or meat. Their meat raising and processing habits are disgusting.

          Not saying this article is reliant on Peta, but they don’t help animal rights at all. Their campaign against mulesing was dishonest. And after their domestic violence ads, whatever they’re against, I’m for. I might go and cook a lamb chop, now.

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        • Diana The Huntress

          Abc123- If your neighbour had a dog or cat and you found out they were keeping it in a tiny pen so it couldn’t move, or being pumped full of antibiotics rather than receiving genuine care, or repeatedly impregnating it then taking its babies away in the first couple of days and starving them, or never allowing it to experience fresh air, exercise, social contact or tasty, nourishing food? What would you do? You’d be outraged and call the authorities, yes? So tell me. What is the difference between doing that do a cat or dog and doing it to a pig/cow/sheep/chicken? Not slavery? What else can we call it? And Al, despite the fact I’m vegan, I don’t like PETA either. I think they harm the cause more than they help it.

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          • ABC123

            Yeah, so I wrote a big reply then my internet dropped out and I lost it so I will keep it simple as I am busy.

            Can we just forget the argument of whether we ‘should’ eat meat or not and focus on what the article is asking.

            What do we need to do to keep Aussie farming practices among the best in the world?

            My opinion is that we should enforce space, air and sunlight requirements. We don’t want our tradition of Aussie farming to go the way of he US or Europe.

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            • wizzi

              ABC123 I agree with you… I think people try to hijack the cruel farming practices discussion with their own campaigns to tell us to be vegetarians/vegans…

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        • Jay

          I agree with the comparison. The animal is killed just because it isn’t a human must not have feelings right? Humans do not need to eat meat to survive and just because we have always eaten meat does not make it right. I have a lot of compassion for all living creatures but unfortunately most do not.

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      • Faybian

        Actually, offensive as it may be, people have owned slaves for a long time. Who built the pyramids of Giza? There’s reference to it in the bible as well.
        The fact that the appendix is the remnants of a caecum would indicate that the human body has evolved to being an omnivorous mammal.
        I’m against animal cruelty too, but not everyone’s going to want to become a vegan.

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        • Sean Winter

          Who built the pyramids? Certainly not slaves. they were built by free farmers who came up the Nile in the off season to work on the tomb for their god (the Pharaoh). The current orthodox archaeological explanation for the pyramids is that they were built by a free labour force as a form of religious devotion and civic duty. And I’m an archaeologist so i should really have an idea of how this works.

          I’m not interested in getting into the food debate but just thought it was worth putting forward the idea that not everything you read on the internet is true.

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  22. Tasha

    I’m glad to see articles like this one cropping up quite frequently lately. A few of them mention the environment but it’s mostly focused on eating ‘ethical meat’. People might want to look into how much meat we consume globally, the subsequent waste run off from these animals, how much fresh water it takes to raise them, how much feed and medicine it takes to raise them (hint: enough to eliminate poverty), and how much land clearing will be involved to create more farmland for the increase in demand for meat we will see in the near future as our population grows. The figures are scary considering we have to resources and technology available to us to live healthy, vegetarian lives. Eating meat today is completely unhealthy for you and our environment, not to mention unsustainable. If we take all of this in to account then the only reasons we eat meat are because it’s traditional, we’ve been told its healthy, and because let’s face it, it’s big business. Do some research, and try to get past all the dairy and meat industry-funded misinformation. All that doesn’t even consider the fact that it’s unessecary cruelty, because clearly, noones cared about that for years.

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    • wizzib

      Meat is often farmed in areas that are not appropriate to grow vegetables, or to provide a rotation year to allow the soils to rest after cropping. Therefore your statements that meat production uses lots more resources are simply not true. They just use different available resources.
      Think how much land we would have to clear in Australia to farm enough soybeans!! That’s a lot of land that would have to be cleared!!

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  23. Laws for Clouds

    I would love it see food labelling telling whether meat is sourced ethically. I try and buy from the farmer’s market, but even then I don’t *know* if organic or free range automatically means ethical.

    Compulsory food labelling I hope would put pressure on the industry to change their practices.

    The reason I personally want this is I don’t have time to sort through ethical shopping every week, checking every purchase for it’s ethical standards and nutritional value. Then when the limited range at my local Woolies or Coles* proves to have limited brands I have to source my ethical goods from elsewhere. Often companies change their practices so you can’t buy one brand and stick with them.

    *I rarely shop at Coles or Woolies but in some locations you have no choice

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  24. Puss In Boots

    I have been a vegetarian for 22 years now & don’t miss meat at all, however I don’t begrudge anyone eating it. I am also a cat lover and recently have begun to worry about what I feed my puss ! Is it possible to buy ‘ethical’ tinned cat food ??

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  25. An Idle Dad

    We’ve got chickens out the back for eggs. Some of them only lay about once a week, but with nine of them we get between one and three dozen eggs a week (provided mainly by three new Isa Browns).

    While Isa Browns are viscious little brutes, and I won’t buy them in the future, I’d recommend chickens for anyone.

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    • Susan

      Vicious?? We had some Isa brown and they were three little sweeties! Though the demands to get let out of the coop at 6am are a little trying.

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      • An Idle Dad

        Maybe if it is just Isa Browns in the flock, they aren’t? They certainly aren’t mean to each other.

        In my experience, get them in with other breeds – especially smaller ones – and they peck and attack and dominate and basically, are mean little so-and-sos.

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    • Faybian

      I’d love to get chooks, but our land backs onto bushland. I’ve seen snakes slithering across our yard to get to our neighbours chickens. Browns! Friends of ours in the area have lost chickens to foxes as well. So ATM not going to happen.

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  26. Catherine M

    Anonymous, Fairtrade (all one word and initial capital) is a stringent accreditation process using the produce of small farmers, with money ploughed back into the community, and environmental improvements encouraged. Of course no accreditation system is perfect but this one’s pretty good.

    Anyone can falsely call their goods ‘fair trade’. But this is just a term – Fairtrade certified, along with the appropriate logo, is a very well policed label, and the website below tells you where you can get Fairtrade certified goods in your area:

    http://www.fta.org.au/

    Here’s some info about the label:

    http://www.fta.org.au/about-fairtrade/label

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  27. Emma

    The labeling of ‘free range’ eggs frustrates me. I’ve only recently discovered that all free range eggs are not created equal. Yesterday I bought a carton of eggs that said ‘certified free range’ but my husband pointed out that no where on the box did it say by who. By the company? By an independent assessor? We need more accurate labeling so consumers can make properly informed choices.

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    • becauseimthemum

      Emma, I have the same problem with the term ‘organic’. I am keen to replace everything I use with an organic/sustainable alternative, but I don’t see any regulation regarding the use of these terms. I would like to know that one farmer’s organic, free-fange eggs are comparable to those of his neighbour.

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  28. Catherine M

    Anonymous, it’s not that hard to buy ethical. Buy Fairtrade coffee and chocolate, and don’t buy cosmetics from companies that use animal products or conduct animal testing – there’s a list of such companies on the PETA website at http://www.peta.org – easy!

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  29. Catherine M

    This article, while a good start, shows the need for solid, well-paid investigative journalism.

    A good investigative journalist will not just regurgitate the views of both sides. He or she will go out and try to find out what’s really going on – visit the different types of farms, talk to activists on the ground, interview accreditation bodies etc.

    This article doesn’t even mention the difference between ‘free range’ eggs and ‘accredited free range’. I’d like to know what I’m actually buying when I buy accredited free range from the supermarket. And how does this differ from certified organic?

    At the moment it seems if you want to ethically source your meat you have to go and visit the farms yourself. But who wants to visit the slaughterhouses? Until we have CCTV in them and standards that are actually enforced, should any of us be eating meat? I think we need a meat-buying strike until the livestock industry lifts its game.

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  30. ClaireBear

    Thanks for posting this Mamamia. This is why I am vegan.

    Whilst I agree that humans have evolved to be omnivores, the vast majority of us are so far removed from the natural food chain that it is almost impossible to know where your animals products come from and how much cruelty is involved in its production.

    I think it’s fantastic that you have given air time to both sides in this article. There are a couple of points in the Farmers’ Federation responses that I’d like to address:

    - Re the ‘modern’ hen cages (20 A4 sheets of paper)/sheds (12-15 x 80-140 metres), they have conveniently avoided saying anything about the density of the birds. Is this because there are so many birds crammed into these spaces that they are unable to express their natural behaviour? Yes it is.

    - Re the welfare/health of animals being imperative to the success of the farmers’ business: what ‘makes good business sense’ is about getting animals ready for slaughter in the most efficient way, and nothing more. This is why beef cattle are ‘grain finished’ (which their digestive systems are not designed for) so they reach slaughter weight quicker, and then pumped full of antibiotics to stop them getting sick from it. This is why broiler (meat) chickens have been bred to grow at a rate that their skeletons can’t support so that they reach slaughter weight quicker.

    The problem with factory farming is that animals are treated as cogs in a machine. They are treated merely as protein production units. Their natural behaviours are inconveniences that must be controlled – e.g. through searing off the beaks of hens, docking the tails of pigs, keeping pigs in solitary crates to so-called ‘protect’ them. If these animals weren’t kept in such inhumane conditions to begin with, these behaviours would not be an issue – they arise as a stress response to overcrowding and boredom.

    Regarding the price of ‘ethical’ animal products putting them out of reach of some people – did you know that it is perfectly possible, healthy and cheap to go without animals products altogether? We do not ‘need’ meat/dairy/eggs in our diets.

    Factory farmed animal products seem cheap when you get to the checkout, but this is because the true cost of production is passed on in other ways – to the environment, to the need to develop vaccinations for new strains of swine and avian influenza which arise from the poor health and overcrowding of animals (not to mention the human lives that will be lost when an epidemic inevitably happens), and of course the lives of misery that the animals themselves must suffer.

    But no, we don’t talk about the true cost, because what’s important is that ‘down down, prices are down’ so we can all have a few dollars extra at the checkout every week.

    There are good, honest farmers out there who care for their animals and do their best to make sure they have a good life and merciful death. But unfortunately they are few and far between as more and more farms are run by corporations.

    For those of you interested in learning more about food production, I recommend ‘The Ethics of What We Eat’ by Peter Singer and Jim Mason, and ‘The Omnivore’s Dilemma’ by Michael Pollan as excellent starting points.

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    • Jay

      ClaireBear you are my hero! if I could like you comment by 10000 I would.

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  31. Anonymous

    I have researched meat and egg producers in my state to find ones that I am comfortable with, then I go out of my way to find their products in my supermarkets and butchers. It’s not hard.

    But apart from that, here is my personal problem with cutting out meat altogether. If I don’t eat meat, then how could I possibly wear leather or silk, knowing how they are produced? Crushed cochineal beetles, ambergris (from sperm whales) and musk (from the anal glands of deer) are used in cosmetics, so how can I use those? And then.. how can I possibly put animal rights above human rights – how can I consume anything that involves slavery or child trafficking – chocolate, sugar, cotton, coffee, electronics, diamonds, etc?

    It’s pathetic of me, I know, but I can’t deal with it. I try to live my life with an awareness of what I consume and who suffers for it, and try to lessen the impact as much as I can by making positive choices when I can… but I can’t solve every problem on my own.

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    • M

      Just because you can’t do everything, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do something. Some fabulous person said this, and it’s been my motto ever since. Sorry, I don’t know the author.

      Here is my journey:

      My husband came across a you tube video of chicks being debeaked and bulls being castrated about 7 years ago. These weren’t undercover videos but were just examples of standard animal practice. Something clicked with in us and we wanted to make a difference. At the time, I was pregnant and didn’t want to make a drastic change, so we decided to go Pescetarian (ate eggs, dairy and aquamarine life). Deep down I knew there were lots of issues with eggs, dairy and fish but I didn’t want to deal with it. While I was hesitant to make any more changes, I still kept reading and researching the topic.

      About two years ago, I read Peter Singer’s “The Ethics of What we Eat” and realised that I just couldn’t keep my eyes closed anymore and that further changes had to be made. We decided to ‘trial veganism’ for 3 months and, if it were too inconvenient, we would go back to our previous ways. Within two weeks, we knew that, not only was veganism relatively easy (compared to how weird and impossible I had imagined it to be), but that the peace that I felt within my self was worth pursuing, no matter what.

      I found that a vegan diet was very easy to adopt, especially after I bought a few cookbooks and started following vegan food bloggers. What did take more time to veganise, were all of the other aspects of my life. I continued to use all of my non-vegan toiletries and it took me ages to find vegan alternatives that didn’t cost the roof. Likewise, I continued to wear my non-vegan clothes. I decided there was no use throwing them out but did make the commitment to make sure that any new purchases were vegan. Two years on, I find this doesn’t sit so well with me anymore. I find that I struggle to wear my non-vegan clothes because every time I put on my leather boots (which have years of use left in them), all I can think about is that I am wearing the skin of another sentient creature. As a result, I gave away nearly sixty pair of shoes last week and will veganise the rest of my wardrobe over the coming months.

      The point of my story is to demonstrate that life is a journey, along which we should never stop learning and challenging ourselves. My aim is not to judge, but rather to encourage everyone to question, learn and adjust his or her behaviour accordingly.

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    • Alex

      Everyone has their own moral line which they won’t cross. Yours seems to be with finding meat and egg products you are comfortable with eating. For others, this means avoiding all animal products in everyday life. As long as your choices are considered choices, that’s the important thing.

      Another reader recommended a book by Peter Singer – it’s well worth the read.

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    • Rachel

      I see what you mean – there is a lot to think about when it comes to purchasing ethically. That’s why I think it is important to choose what bothers you the most or what you see as most unethical, and make a decision to cut those products out. It doesn’t have to be everything. But, for instance purchasing cosmetics from companies responsible for animal cruelty (eg. perfume companies who test perfumes by spraying it in animals’ eyes)…well, it’s hard to justify that. Do you really need to smell THAT good? Says something about vanity, about ‘first world’ ignorance….

      In my experience, there are a lot of fantastic natural/organic cosmetic products on the market. Most of the big brand cosmetics are unethical.

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    • Jennywren

      I agree, it’s not that hard. And there is a new breed of passionate, ethical farmers on the up-and-up who need the public to get behind them.

      I researched WA farmers a while back as I wanted to buy as ethically and locally as possible. This is who I buy from..

      Eggs from Eggs By Ellah (http://eggsbyellah.com.au/about-ellah/)
      Milk by Bannister Downs (http://www.bannisterdowns.com.au/)
      Pork by Plantagenet (http://www.plantagenetpork.com.au/) or Spencer Brook farm (http://www.spencersbrookfarm.com.au/)
      Beef by Gingin Beef (http://www.ginginbeef.com/).

      As has been proven time and again, it’s consumer choice that makes the difference in the shopping aisles.

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      • Tosca

        Eggs by Ellah?? you have got to be kidding! That farm is nearly all cages stacked 5 high.

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  32. Hesitant

    I am very hesitant to post this, but here is my truth: I eat meat and I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about where it comes from. I may well cop a slew of negative comments but that is the truth, and I think it’s the truth for a lot of people who aren’t commenting on this story.

    In an ideal world we would all buy ‘ethical’ meat but for many people they either do not have the money to afford it, the time to source it or live in the areas where these butchers are.

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    • Essie

      Most supermarkets inc Coles and woolies offer free range meat. Give it some thought.

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    • Kate

      Well, Hesitant, these ads are aimed at you then!

      First of all, to raise your awareness, because you admit you don’t think about it much. Well, if you saw ads about it over and over again, hopefully you would start thinking about it.

      Second of all – many things will happen in an ideal world, but in t his world – for all the people who say they can’t afford to eat the more expensive ‘ethical meat’, that is a massive cop out. You know how you afford more expensive meat? Easy. Eat less of it. It will be better for you, the animals and your environment. Don’t have to cut it out altogether, but how about some pasta and stir fries and soup dishes which don’t involve meat? Then you can afford the more expensive meat, and feel better at night.

      However, for those that simply don’t care, like hesitant above, then these ad campaigns are for you – to make you see beyond your own plate and your own needs, to the wider issues involved.

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  33. Liz

    Rick glad to see there is space there for a response from the producers, namely National Farmers Federation – thank you. Coming from the agricultural end of the cycle, I see a lot of advertising which is heavily dramatised, and does not accurately represent the majority of cases of how our food is produced on the ground.

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  34. M

    I’ve cut and pasted this question and answer from:

    http://www.abolitionistapproach.com

    Question 5: Isn’t human use of animals a “tradition,” or “natural,” and therefore morally justified?

    Answer: Every form of discrimination in the history of humankind has been defended as “traditional.” Sexism is routinely justified on the ground that it is traditional for women to be subservient to men: “A woman’s place is in the home.” Human slavery has been a tradition in most cultures at some times. The fact that some behavior can be described as traditional has nothing to do with whether the behavior is or is not morally acceptable.

    In addition to relying on tradition, some characterize our use of animals as “natural” and then declare it to be morally acceptable. Again, to describe something as natural does not in itself say anything about the morality of the practice. In the first place, just about every form of discrimination ever practiced has been described as natural as well as traditional. The two notions are often used interchangeably. We have justified human slavery as representing a natural hierarchy of slave owners and slaves. We have justified sexism as representing the natural superiority of men over women. Moreover, it is a bit strange to describe our modern commodification of animals as natural in any sense of the word. We have created completely unnatural environments and agricultural procedures in order to maximize profits. We do bizarre experiments in which we transplant genes and organs from animals into humans and vice versa. We are now cloning animals. None of this can be described as natural. Labels such as “natural” and “traditional” are just that: labels. They are not reasons. If people defend the imposition of pain and suffering on an animal based on what is natural or traditional, it usually means that they cannot otherwise justify their conduct.

    A variant of this question focuses on the traditions of particular groups. For example, in May 1999 the Makah tribe from Washington State killed its first gray whale in over seventy years. The killing, which was done with steel harpoons, antitank guns, armor-piercing ammunition, motorized chase boats, and a $310,000 grant from the federal government, was defended on the grounds that whaling was a Makah tradition. But the same argument could (and is) made to defend clitoral mutilations in Africa and bride-burning in India. The issue is not whether conduct is part of a culture; all conduct is part of some culture. The issue is whether the conduct can be morally justified.

    Finally, some argue that since nonhuman animals eat other nonhumans in the wild, our use of animals is natural. There are four responses to this position. First, although some animals eat each other in the wild, many do not. Many animals are vegetarians. Moreover, there is far more cooperation in nature than our imagined “cruelty of nature” would have us believe. Second, whether animals eat other animals is beside the point. How is it relevant whether animals eat other animals? Some animals are carnivorous and cannot exist without eating meat. We do not fall into that category; we can get along fine without eating meat, and more and more people are taking the position that our health and environment would both benefit from a shift away from a diet of animals products. Third, animals do all sorts of things that humans do not regard as morally appropriate. For example, dogs copulate and defecate in the street. Does that mean that we should follow their example? Fourth, it is interesting that when it is convenient for us to do so, we attempt to justify our exploitation of animals by resting on our supposed “superiority.” And when our supposed “superiority” gets in the way of what we want to do, we suddenly portray ourselves as nothing more than another species of wild animal, as entitled as foxes to eat chickens.

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    • Wow…a lot of words there, but not many logical arguments…

      Personally, I think the vegan/vegetarian vs meat eaters arguments are a bit like pro-life vs pro-choice…

      I am personally pro-life, but politically pro-choice…

      When it comes to eating meat, again I’m politically pro-choice…I think people should be free to eat meat if they want, and free not to if they want…for vegans/vegetarians to force their beliefs on meat-eaters (and vice versa) is the morally wrong position…but there’s nothing morally wrong with being a meat-eater, or vegetarian or vegan.

      When it comes to the food we eat, I am proudly pro-choice.

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      • M

        I don’t see any forcing. I can’t make you or anyone else do anything you don’t want. I am not judging you or expecting you to follow my way just bcause I say so. What I am trying to do is get you to think and question the way we as a society do things. This is how progress is made, this is how slavery was abolished, this is how the rights of chidlren came to be, this is how sexism is being destryoed, this is how gays rights are coming to be, this is how climate change is at the forefront of our political arena. People debate, question each other and a new moral baseline is formed.

        ‘I’m po-choice’, and similar defences, are, in my opinion, simplistic and not a valid argument. At anygive time in history, all kinds of injustices have been allowed to go on because it was someone’s right. Just because it is within your rights at this point in time does not make it morally right.

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        • The problem with your position is that you assume that your position has more moral authority than mine…

          My argument is that all positions are valid…

          If you feel uncomfortable eating meat, I fully support your decision to not eat meat.

          I don’t feel the same way. I’ve looked at the pros and cons and have decided that I am still OK with the idea of eating meat. That does not make me morally less than you. Just different to you.

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          • ClaireBear

            The impact of people eating meat (factory farmed meat that is) goes further than that individual’s choice though. It’s not just ‘it is/isn’t morally acceptable to eat meat’. There is a broader impact to consider – that on the environment (which all of us share!), and that on public health (both antibiotics becoming ineffective, and the development of exotic virus strains which could be extremely dangerous for the human population).

            I fully accept that everyone has the right to choose what they eat, to an extent. But this issue – factory farming – is not that simple.

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            • Now that’s a whole other kettle of fish…I agree with you about “how” meat is produced…

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          • M

            “The problem with your position is that you assume that your position has more moral authority than mine…”

            These are your assumptions not mine. I don’t think I’m morally superior, if that’s how it’s come across, them I am very sorry. What I do have is a different moral base line to you. As for who’s more morally superior, that’s not for me to judge. As long as you are acting within your legal rights, and owning and killing animals is legally permissible, then you are not doing anything wrong.

            This is an open forum. No one is forcing you or me to participate in this discussion. But we have both decided to express ourselves and as such we leave ourselves open to questions from those who don’t agree with our opinions.

            I don’t think it should be within anyone’s right to enslave another sentient being for food, clothing, amusement and experimentation. I know you disagree and that’s your right.

            I do hope that sometime, in the not too, distant future, people will no longer have that the right to own animals. In order for this to be the case, there needs to be a paradigm shift in the way we look at animals and their personhood. Beliefs, opinions, morals, rights, laws only change when people engage with one another in respectful debates, and ask each other tough questions.

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      • Nat

        Yeah! Live and let live people! Except for animals, right? That’s um, not pro-choice, that’s called Speciesism. Just sayin’.

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  35. Kate

    The kangaroo industry is the least of our worries when it comes to animal ethics. The kangaroo industry is as organic and free range as it comes. The roos live their lives in the wild an are hunted, preferably with one shot to the head. Is the system perfect? No. Can you guarantee that the shot is perfect every time? No. Is it better than farming where they would be fed hormones, branded, refined to tight spaces and sent to the slaughterhouse? In my opinion, yes.

    On a separate note, I went to a restaurant the other night and was served a fois gras palette cleanser. Fois gras is force-fed duck liver. They force feed the animal much more than what they would normally eat to enlarge the liver which apparently makes it tastier. Disgraceful practice and I was shocked to see it served to me.

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    • Laws for Clouds

      Kangaroo meat also has a low carbon footprint.

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    • T

      Yeah! live and let live! except for the animals. they don’t deserve a choice, right? You’re not pro-choice, you’re a speciesist, just sayin’

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  36. happyface

    Apart from the battery hens- eggs. If we buy from Coles & Woolies does that mean the animals have been unfairly treated? How are we supposed to know? Even if we buy Organic (which I don’t) does that mean they have been raised humanely? It is a bit of a minefield.
    I assumed all animals raised here had been humanly treated, I would expect Australia to have certain standards for farmers and abattoirs. Is this not the case?

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    • M

      You ask about Australian Farmers and humane treatment. It is a fact that most people would consider Australia’s laws and practices concerning farm animals to be some of the strictest in the world. Let’s see what they do:

      Cutting the balls off bulls and rams and boars so their meat tastes better.

      Cutting the horns off of all cattle so that they’re less of a pain in the arse to deal with.

      Sticking semen into the vagina of a dairy cow to get her pregnant so that she will produce milk. Then taking her child away immediately after birth so her milk can be stolen for us rather than left to her own offspring.

      Killing the dairy cow’s male offspring ASAP for veal because a male is useless to the dairy industry and a waste to feed. But keeping the female for an ongoing life of exploitation.

      Ripping shreds off the arse of a sheep that has been bred to produce more wool than she can handle.

      Cutting the tails off pigs and sheep so that they don’t bite each other while they go insane in concentrated feedlots.

      Sticking a pregnant sow in a crate so small she can’t even turn around her entire gestation.

      Throwing the male chicks from egg layers into a mincing machine, at birth, because they are not “required”.

      Searing the beaks off egg layers so that they don’t peck each other while they go insane in cages that they will never be able to spread a wing in.

      Suffocating and freezing marine creatures to death (and sometimes even boiling them alive) because they don’t have vocal chords that appeal to our selective sensitivities.

      Breeding new cats and dogs at an increasing rate while we send a few hundred thousand each year to death because they are not the “latest model.”

      Sticking as many of any species in as tight a space as possible in the interest of increased profitability, and thereby denying them sunlight, fresh air, natural ground and pretty much every other thing you’d probably consider a natural birth right.

      And finally, duping humankind – you – the most “intelligent” of all animals – into thinking you need this stuff lest you die or life as you know it being destroyed.

      Heaven help those with lower standards than ours!

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      • Lulu

        “Breeding new cats and dogs at an increasing rate while we send a few hundred thousand each year to death because they are not the “latest model.””

        Cats & dogs are farm animals?

        And while we’re on the subject – ethical pet meat is another thing to worry about. I haven’t seen much about it at all.

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        • M

          You’re right! My apologies. I get carried away when discussing this topic.

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          • Rachel

            On a tangent – totally agree with you M when it comes to breeding cats and dogs. Sickens me how people breed “prestigious” pets to sell at a high price, while so many gorgeous cats and dogs waiting for a home are put down in the pound. Get your pets at the pound!!!

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      • Cait

        As much as i suspect you might be on the right track with at least some of your damning accusations, could you back it up with some research for the more discerning reader?

        If all those things are indeed true, the public need proof of who are doing these things, and who are sanctioning these methods so they can take their business elsewhere.

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      • happyface

        So basically you are saying every animal is abused so I should not eat meat, a bit extreme I think.

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        • Jay

          Why would that be extreme? can you not survive without meat? Extreme is knowing these facts and doing nothing!

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      • wizzib

        M this post is ridiculous
        “Ripping shreds off the arse of a sheep”

        This is not an accurate description of what happens. And neither is a lot of the rest of your post!
        posting overdramatic comments just makes you look like an ass!!

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    • Mel

      We sold a truckload of cattle to Woolworths last week. They were free range, grass feed Hereford cattle. They lead a happy stress free life on our farm.
      It is important that we know where our livestock go and the processes used and woolworths have very high standards of practice. I would imagine Coles have the same.

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      • Yes, I'm a vegan.

        Mel: You say the cattle were happy.

        Were they happy when they were removed from their mother?

        Were they happy as their testicles were being cut off without anaesthetic?

        Were they happy when their horns were cut off without anaesthetic?

        Were they happy when they were branded with a fiery iron?

        Were they happy when their ears were clipped for ID?

        Were they happy when they were prodded onto a truck?

        Were they happy waiting in line at the abattoir?

        Were they happy as a bolt was being pressed against their head waiting for their death?

        Would any sentient being be happy being killed when they were mere “teenagers?”

        In other words – were they happy, or, is it just you that is happy?

        In

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        • wizzib

          So how do you judge happiness…. 8 short lived moments in a 24 month life??

          that’s like saying that you or I have terrible lives having experienced vaccinations, weaning, school and the odd house move!

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  37. B

    This kind of article always makes me so sad. It is disappointing that our society still doesn’t value the ethical treatment of animals.
    However in saying that, I definitely see buying organic and ethically sourced food as a bit of a luxury with the much higher price point.
    At this point in my life, I cannot afford to only buy these products, as much as I’d like to.
    It’s also sad that in order to make a stand against this kind of produce, you need to be in a better financial situation.

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    • Farmer who cares

      It can be more expensive, however if you could even swap meat in one meal a week it could make a difference. Every little bit helps.

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      • Kateateight

        No, you really don’t.

        You can buy the more expensive meat and just EAT LESS of it.

        In fact, eating less meat (for many people), would be beneficial health wise, and also is better for the animals and the environment.

        I believe the ‘expense’ issue is a cop out, because actually, you can eat less meat than many of us do, so that it shouldn’t be a major expense

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  38. Cait

    Does anyone know if the Aussie Farmers Direct meat is ethical? I get their meat because its much cheaper and amazing quality, but I hope im not making incorrect assumptions about their treatment of animals…

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    • merindakennedy

      Cait, I’d love to know that too. Obviously it’s all Aussie beef, but considering that the abattoir in question that was closed down for cruelty was also Australia… is does worry me. I’m sure if you emailed or called Aussie Farmers Direct, someone would be able to let you know.

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      • Cait

        Il email them and find out, il be sure to add it to the next Open Post or Best & Worst as soon as i have an answer for anyone who is interested :)

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        • merindakennedy

          that’d be awesome!! Even comment back on this thread might be good too…

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          • Phillybaby

            I spoke to them about this last week actually – not sure every state is the same, but for NSW at least, it is all ethical except for the chicken right now. Apparently chicken used to be, however they also have an Australian-owned standard and the supplier they were using was bought by an OS company, so they have switched to an Aussie one which is in the process of becoming free-range. Hope this helps. And if I’m wrong, someone please correct me!

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            • merindakennedy

              Thanks so much for letting us know phillybaby. Most appreciated :)

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  39. Farmer who cares

    We are dairy farmers and love our cows. All of the farmers we know treat their animals humanely. We love our animals and never want to see then suffer or be ill treated. The cows are not only our livelihood but they are also living creature we work with everyday and develop incredibly close bonds with.

    I am passionate about only eating animals that have been ethically treated and rasied. If you are too then COLES and WOOLWORTHS are the WORST place to shop. Find a LOCAL BUTCHER who sources his meat from farmers and goes out and picks the animals out of the paddock himself. Did you know that if you are able to source GRASS feed beef they have 50%+ more omega 3 fatty aids as they have had a healthier diet and have also often been feed less antibiotics than beef cows raised in a feedlot.

    Be informed and care about where you meat comes from- pay the little bit extra and talk to your butcher!

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    • +500 likes. I am totally with you on this.

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    • Lulu

      “Find a LOCAL BUTCHER who sources his meat from farmers and goes out and picks the animals out of the paddock himself.”

      Not everyone has a local butcher – let alone one who picks the animals himself.

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      • Farmer who cares

        If you don’t have a local butcher there are places like this http://www.freerangebutcher.com.au/

        Call them ask questions, make sure the product they are advertising is actually what they are offering. There are places like this all around NSW and Vic (and probably other states as well)

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  40. Sarah Greenaway

    This abuse has gone on for far too long but change is afoot!

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  41. Faybian

    Ive been buying organic chicken and eggs for years. I buy organic meat (beef, pork and lamb) whenever possible. Woolies had a range for a while, but I haven’t seen them for a while now. The nearest health food shop sells some organic meat, but that’s it. It’s depressing and makes you feel that to ensure your meat supply is free from (excessive) cruelty, you need to get into farming yourself.

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    • Faybian, organic definitely doesn’t mean that the animals have been treated humanely or lived healthy lives prior to slaughter.

      My butcher has told me that he actually refuses to buy and onsell organic meat because of the disgusting state of the organic animals when they are taken to the abbatoir.

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      • Al

        Yeah, organic for animals bothers me, too. I’ve never had organic pets – if they need flea control or pharmaceuticals they get them.

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      • Faybian

        Look, I know it’s not perfect, but I do what I can. These days I feel I have so many soapboxes that it’s hard to know which one to stand on.
        I do actually buy local grown and/or raised produce when possible.

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        • I wasn’t having a go at you at all, Faybian, I was just saying, don’t feel as though you have to buy organic meat or organic anything! I think it is a total waste of money and not worth it ever, or alternatively, not worth it if you are hurting your hip pocket to buy it!

          I’m actually against organic everything – my boyfriends parents are agricultural scientists and talk a lot of sense over the trendy rise in organic produce!

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    • gee jen

      Maybe the answer isn’t to buy organic but to trust majority of farmers to do the right thing, follow laws/guielines and trust the authorities to follow up on those that don’t. I know this is probably a bit simplistic and can understand people wanting to buy organic to support animal rights but as a member of a farming community i have no desire to be a farmer myself – it’s hard work and I do turst them

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      • I reckon forget organic and free range supermarket meat, if you can, buying your meat from your local butcher instead of the supermarkets is a step in the right direction.

        Some people don’t have any option but supermarket meat, but for those who do, a good butcher is going to be able to give you heaps of information about where the meat comes from, the free range conditions, the farming practices and the abbatoir conditions. Mine knows heaps about it and I trust him!

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        • rudyroo

          Whippersnapper,
          you are in Brisbane aren’t you?
          I loved to know what suburb your butcher is in if you’d like to share. Even a name perhaps?
          Thanks.

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          • Yes I am in Bris, rudyroo.

            I go to Meat at Billy’s in Ashgrove. Obviously, Billy is the name of the proprietor, but the other butchers in there are fantastic too – Max and the young blonde haired one (whose name I can’t remember) are excellent!

            Go as early as possible if you are going on the weekends though, they get really busy on Saturdays and Sundays! They open at around 6-7am most days, and stay open until 6:30pm weeknights!

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            • Rudyroo

              Thanks for that info. I will try to make it there at least until I find something closer.

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          • Rachel

            Yes be aware of the dodgy butcher too. Here comes an anecdote: I knew a local butcher who was shut down (and later sent to jail for other offences – small town, people talk) for STEALING the cows off farms and slaughtering them himself, which is about as unethical as you can imagine.

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        • happyface

          But surely they are all going to say that their meat come from good sources. I know it is cynical, but how do we really know? If I walked into 5 butchers and asked them they would all say yes!

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          • I think most people can tell if someone is bullshitting!

            Especially if you are asking lots of questions and probably fairly difficult and unanticipated questions if you are asking about the ethical treatment of the meat they stock!

            I trust my butcher 100%. I can’t speak for other butchers though. Besides, it’s illegal for them to lie to you about it. If they don’t know where the meat is coming from – that’s another story!

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            • Anonymous

              There are different kinds of butchers, ones that offer quantity and others that offer quality. It is easy to pick the ones offering quality and they don’t usually lie as their business is based on the fact that they offer a high quality product and know where it comes from. Seriously just start asking questions, if they are a good butcher they’ll be able to (and probably want to) talk for hours about their meat and where it comes from and how it is prepared etc…

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  42. Lauren

    Eating ethically is imprortant to me. I don’t eat red meat of any kind (I don’t like it at all), only chicken and fish. When shopping I buy Macro or Lilydale chicken and Safcol salmon.

    A few years ago Jamie Oliver did a brilliant show that highlighted where our food comes from and what animals go through to feed us. It would be great if they could replay this every now and then because it was very effective. Before watching that program my partner couldn’t understand why I made us spend more money on better quality meat/eggs. After watching it I was never questioned again!

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    • b

      Out of interest do you have a lot of concern about the seafood you’re eating? Do you choose sustainably labelled (for example marine stewardship council) seafood or use the sustainable seafood guides? It’s really interesting to me that there is a huge interest in the welfare of beef and chicken and lamb yet very little interest in how fish are caught and whether their harvest is sustainable (I’m not meaning you, just generally!).

      And don’t get me started on people that say they are vegetarian for “ethical” reasons, yet eat fish!! GAH!

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      • Lauren

        I will be honest and say that up until a few years ago I really hadn’t thought about it. It’s only been recently (a few years) that I have actually thought about it.

        You are right in saying that it’s interesting the interest in welfare of land animals over marine animals.

        I don’t eat alot of seafood anyway but generally look out for labels that say it is sustainable fish. From what I understand Safcol are a sustainable company and that’s where the majority of my seafood comes from (I mainly just eat salmon)

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      • Anonymous

        There really should be an education campaign – if you eat fish you are NOT a vegetarian – you are someone who eats fish. This is part of the reason some places don’t take vegetarianism seriously – I have lost track of the number of times I’ve been asked “but do you eat seafood?” No! I’m a vegetarian!! Let alone the slices of ham hidden down the bottom of the plate of nachos, or being told ‘oh, just pick the prawns off’. Kind of defeats the purpose. (not that I’m saying that you’re trying to mislead us, Lauren, I think that you are doing beautifully in actually thinking about things. The world would be a better place if everyone did so)

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  43. Lulu

    Of the two main free-range chicken providers available to me, one has an odd idea of how much/little space means ‘free range’ & the other has a crappy record in worker safety & relations. Either way, I’m a bit stuffed.

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    • thegirl

      I agree Lulu. There was an article on the makers of Lilydale chickens (I think it’s Baida Pty Ltd) in the SMH on the weekend. Their OHS record is appalling (hate to think of how the chickens are treated based on how they treat their employees) and I can never buy Lilydale again. It was convenient being able to buy it from the supermarket but looks like I’ll be off to the butcher to find a better alternative.

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      • Lauren

        Really? wow!

        What about Macro? I generally shop at Woolies so usually only get Macro anyway

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        • thegirl

          Hi Lauren, I don’t know anything about Macro. I only know about the makers of Lilydale chicken. This was the article from the weekend about Baida (Lilydale):
          http://www.smh.com.au/business/behind-the-closed-doors-of-poultry-processing-20120217-1tdoy.html

          After reading Rick’s post this morning I went to my local butchers and had a chat to him about his chicken and whether it’s free range/organic etc so I can start buying from him instead of Lilydale from Coles. Thankfully it’s free range but I have no idea about the work practices of the place where it comes from. It’s possible that my butcher’s chicken is no better in that regard than Lilydale chicken. Sigh. Trying to shop ethically can be difficult.

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  44. Well, what is the solution then, MM? You haven’t posted any guidlines on what to look out for in terms of cruely free meat and eggs.

    After reading some Michael Pollan, I’m seriously thinking about being completely vegetarian while I’m in the US. Millions more people = significantly higher food production = lower standards.

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    • Rick Morton

      We’re crowd sourcing them. The best bet is, of you can, buy organic or buy local from markets. Labels don’t mean much as I mentioned. But our readers have better ideas than I will!

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      • Definitely not organic, Rick! Like I said above, organic does not mean that the animal has been treated humanely or slaughtered humanely!

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        • T.O.M.S.

          Well as an Organic Butcher I certainly agree that you ask more questions of your butcher, mind you in my experience a lot of them will tell you what you want to hear!
          In regards to Organics there is a huge focus on Animal Welfare, in terms of the stocking density i.e. the amount of livestock per acre etc and also through the slaughtering process. Shrouded chutes in which the animals are led to slaughter, so that they cannot see animals being processed in front of them, are common place, also the animals are slaughtered overnight when they are at their least stressed.
          There is also a requirement for Organic livestock to not be transported over vast distances / times to slaughter.
          In terms of ‘Free-Range’ chicken, unfortunately the waters are very muddied and there is no clear guidelines re Free Roam, Barn Raised, Open Range bla bla bla, what does it all mean?? Certified Organic chicken is a guarantee that all chickens are bred, raised and slaughtered ethically. Here’s a link to a “Free-Range” Chicken Farm that’s for sale and is currently contracted to Baiada, owner of the Lilydale Free-Range chicken brand. My particular favourite photos are on pages 5 & 6. Free-Range hey??

          http://m.realestate.com.au/propertydetails.ds?id=7323025&theme=mrea

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    • Sustainable Table

      Check out our Hungry For Information sections of our website, you’ll find some guidelines and information about what you can do/how to shop. Our website is Sustainable Table.org.au

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  45. Sustainable Table

    Good on you Mamamia team for posting an article like this. This issue needs to see more mainstream coverage. For all your readers interested in where their food comes from (as we all should be), please take a moment or two to browse through our website Sustainable Table.org.au. We’re an environmental not-for-profit that uses food as an entree to explore sustainability issues. We have a very informative section called Hungry For Information, which outlines what farming of animals looks like in Australia, and importantly, what consumers can do about it to help to build a fairer food system for all. Cheers.

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  46. I don’t eat a lot of meat…mostly fish, some chicken and maybe a steak once every few weeks…I love bacon, but I do try and not eat it too often because of the dangers of eating processed meats…

    I am aware that eating meat involves animal cruelty at some point, but I will still continue to eat meat because my view is that the human animal is designed to have some meat in its diet…

    I try and source my meat from the most ethical sources I can find, but I’m not zealous about it…my preference would be that all animals bred for meat would be raised and killed as humanely as possible…but I’m not going to stop eating meat while I wait for that to happen…

    If that makes me a bad person, so be it…

    Edit: Forgot to mention. I would be prepared to pay more for my meat if industry standards were made tougher in Australia and the cost of meat production became more expensive.

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    • KM

      In reply to: “Edit: Forgot to mention. I would be prepared to pay more for my meat if industry standards were made tougher in Australia and the cost of meat production became more expensive.”

      Do you actually know what it costs to produce beef? Do you know what the farm gate per kilo upon sale is? Do you know what regulatory expenses are incurred? The on going health & maintenance costs? Because if you answer NO to any of those, you have allot of information you could learn before commenting on that part of the topic.

      There isn’t much profit in beef farming, and I can tell you from experience. So take up your argument with the retailers, who obviously make more out of it than the producer. Beef is already becoming overpriced for the average family, and you want to make it dearer? There are already rules and regulations in place. They just need to be obeyed, so those doing the right thing aren’t penalised.

      I’d be interested to also know what type of fish you eat… and are you certain it’s not imported crap. Where their regulations and health standards are well below those of Australia.

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      • Ouch!

        OK – let me clarify.

        If the price of ensuring that all meat sold in Australia HAD to be ethically farmed was that it was more expensive, then I am prepared to pay extra for my meat. In my head, that assumes that this would apply to both imported and locally farmed meat…in equal measure…

        If that means that Australians eat less meat, well maybe that’s the price we all have to pay for ensuring the ethical treatment of animals…

        You may feel different, I guess. Sounds like you are happy to eat meat, no matter how it’s produced, so long as it’s cheap. That’s fair enough…like I mentioned in another comment, I’m pro-choice. If you’re OK with that choice, I’ll support you 100%.

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        • KM

          Cheap! ha. We breed and raise our own beef to eat & sell. Grass fed, happy environment. Killed with one head shot, hung for seven days. No drama. We supplement with pork/lamb from a local butcher.

          I think those that are so fanatical about the topic should go and visit more farms before jumping on the bandwagon. Instead of living in their little technology filled world, scared of dirt and hard work. wonder how would they have coped living in the ‘olden days’. The ways of the world aren’t all rosy. Good luck with your efforts to change the industry.

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          • Errr…I think you need to take that chip off your shoulder…Sorry to be blunt, but I hate it when people attack me for saying something that I didn’t say…

            You are arguing with the wrong guy…I was stating a purely hypothetical position…that if it came to the point where we had to pay more for meat to ensure that it was ethical, then I’d be happy to pay it…

            I’m NOT SAYING that IT SHOULD BE THAT WAY…you’re the one who assumed that’s what I meant…that’s not what I meant…

            Understand?

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  47. Anonymous

    Proudly a vegetarian. But I don’t begrudge those who eat meat – but I do think they should be more aware of where it comes from. Feather & Bone (shop) in Rozelle are great as all their meat is ethically sourced.

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