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More Parents Becoming Vaccine Skeptics2 380x283 Not vaccinated? Find another doctor.

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A growing number of doctors in the United States are telling families to find another clinic if they refuse vaccinations for their children. In some states as many as one fifth or one third of medical doctors are flexing their muscle and telling belligerent parents they’re ‘fired’.

It’s a controversial move that’s raising questions about what should be done in a country where the rate of vaccination is around 70 per cent but varies drastically from vaccine to vaccine. The Wall Street Journal reports:

“In a study of Connecticut pediatricians published last year, some 30% of 133 doctors said they had asked a family to leave their practice for vaccine refusal, and a recent survey of 909 Midwestern pediatricians found that 21% reported discharging families for the same reason.

By comparison, in 2001 and 2006 about 6% of physicians said they “routinely” stopped working with families due to parents’ continued vaccine refusal and 16% “sometimes” dismissed them, according to surveys conducted then by the American Academy of Pediatrics.

For Allan LaReau of Kalamazoo, Michigan, and his 11 colleagues at Bronson Rambling Road Pediatrics, who chose in 2010 to stop working with vaccine-refusing families, a major factor was the concern that unimmunized children could pose a danger in the waiting room to infants or sick children who haven’t yet been fully vaccinated.

In one case, an unvaccinated child came in with a high fever and Dr. LaReau feared the patient might have meningitis, a contagious, potentially deadly infection of the brain and spinal cord for which a vaccine commonly is given. “I lost a lot more sleep than I usually do” worrying about the situation, he said.”

Mamamia spoke to the President of the Australian Medical Association Dr Steve Hambleton to ask whether a similar desire to ‘fire’ parents existed here.

“That’s not really something that occurs here at all,” he said.

“Australia has a good vaccination rate around 90 per cent, that used to be 60 per cent so we’ve made big gains with good public education campaigns. We have a lot of support for our vaccination programs.

“Of course there are individuals in every area who choose not to vaccinate. We have conscientious objector forms for these people which they can fill out and not have to get immunised for themselves or their kids.”

While repeating the AMA would never have a policy which required doctors to move vaccine-objectors along, Dr Hambleton said he was extremely concerned about the glut of misinformation in the market about vaccines.

“I am absolutely worried about some people in the anti-vaccination movement, yes,” he said.

“People who claim to be an authority on the subject matter, people who claim to be experts on vaccines … well, all I can say is you really need to look at their credentials.

“There has been a sustained and clear distortion of the evidence relating to vaccine safety in Australia and I must say to anybody in this area, you need to look at these things dispassionately.”

One legal case bringing some of the vaccination issues to a head will be heard in New South Wales next week.

The Australian Vaccination Network (AVN), frequently referred to as the Anti-Vaccination Network, will appear in the New South Wales Supreme Court challenging the public warning and report issued by the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission (HCCC).

The HCCC found that the AVN:

  • provides information that is solely anti-vaccination
  • contains information that is incorrect and misleading
  • quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous.

The AVN is also fighting a separate battle with the NSW Office of Liquor, Gaming and Racing (OLGR) which revoked the charity status of the AVN after it identified possible breaches. That case is pending, awaiting the outcome from the Supreme Court case.

Mamamia will be attending that case.

What do you think about doctors refusing to treat families who reject vaccinations?

Comments

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411 Comments so far

  1. GD Star Rating
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    August

    Hi Rick
    Just found this via Medical Observer’s twitter feed. Thought it might be of interest.
    Vaccine Hesitancy: Understanding Parents’ Concerns and the Impact of Anti-Vaccine Rhetoric
    http://vicnetwork.org/2012/03/02/vaccine-hesitancy-understanding-parents-concerns-and-the-impact-of-anti-vaccine-rhetoric-2/

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    plain jane

    Don’t know if this is still active, but here is a reply to Andy about VAERS. He wanted stats on compensation figures paid out by the US gov’t for vaccine-related injuries and deaths. Here is the link to the figures up to Feb 2012;

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#Stats

    FYI: To say that vaccines don’t cause injury or death is a lie, as evidenced by the above. Which makes for a “compelling argument against vaccination”.

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      Andy

      Who said vaccines have no risks? It’s like seat belts and parachutes and crash helmets. Sure they’re designed to save lives but sometimes they actually cause injuries and even death. We’d all love perfection in everything but most of us settle for living in the real world.

      And that link still doesn’t work for me. Even the search cache doesn’t work.

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    lucindainthesky

    I strongly suspect “Plain Jane”, “Curious”, “Anonymous” and “Still Some/have Questions” are all the same person. In any case, they are all equally as woeful at producing any compelling argument against vaccination… Who agrees?

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      Curious

      Even though your rude comment doesn’t deserve a reply, I would like to say that I am in fact a separate person to the rest of the commentators you have mentioned.

      I would also like to mention that I am not against vaccine but rather have questions that I would like answered. I read mamamia on a regular basis but very rarely comment, and as such I don’t have a user name. When I do comment, I don’t go under anonymous but usually choose a name that is fitting for the conversation, i.e. curious, which I thought was an appropriate description of how I feel about this issue. I try and not use anonymous so that I am distinct from other users and my comments can be traceable.

      While we’re at it, I would like to say that I have two children and both have been partially vaccinated. I have discussed my desires to delay the vaccination schedule, (notice the word delay), and reasons for it with my family gp and she has been nothing but supportive. My gp is an experienced doctor, who has a specialty under her belt, and over 20 years of experience.

      I usually steer away from commentating on subjects that require a depth of experience, because I prefer to leave the discussions to people who know what they’re talking about like Rosie and Still Have Some Questions. I did on this occasion because so many people who have about as much knowledge as I do were commenting and making statements that I had reservations about. I realise now that that was a mistake, because we all sound as stupid as each other. Name calling, condescending comments, calls for group ridicule, and the like, achieve nothing but deepening the divide between the opposing views. And at the end of it all, we are all none the wiser. So I am finished commenting. I intend on following this post because there are worthwhile people on here who actually have something constructive to offer. I will take their questions and answers and do further research. I hope that the likes of Rosie and Still Have Some Questions continue commenting because I think we can all learn something, not only from their professional knowledge, but the manner in which they express themselves and show courtesy to each other.
      Lastly, all those people making snide remarks about spelling grow up! If this was a post about writing, grammar, the English language, etc, then that might be appropriate but it’s not. You never know where people come from and if English is their second language. If takes a lot of courage to speak out on a public forum if English is not your first language.

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        lucindainthesky

        ‘Still some questions’ may have shown some restraint toward Rosie, who has shown INCREDIBLE patience, but they have still essentially ignored the information Rosie has provided.

        As have you. Your questions have been answered over and over again. Yet none of you seem to be interested in engaging with the data put forward. You don’t actually want to be convinced of the benefits of vaccination, that much is blatantly clear of most of the anti-vax crew.

        If you were just after answers to your questions you would not still be arguing points which are not valid.

        And that is why people have difficulty showing restraint and patience. At the end, it is YOU and the rest with the “questions” who should be the wiser, you just choose not to be because you are not open to the overwhelming evidence that vaccination works and very very rarely has any adverse consequences for anyone. If you had been following this topic on MM for a while, you would already be clear on this evidence.

        However I apologise if you are a separate identity to the other posters.

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        sharons

        When i want to know something, i seek the opinion of specialists in a particular area. I call that research.

        If i wanted to know more about vaccinations, i would speak to as many doctors, nurses and pharmacists as i could. They’re all easily accessable.

        Or you could make your decision like i did, grow up in a third world country where everyone just falls very ill or kicks the bucket because they don’t have access to/can’t afford quality health care.

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    Shannon

    I’ve spent a good deal of time reading over the comments on this thread and gone and done a bit of reading (following links that have been presented here, and finding some of my own).

    It’s quite exhausting reading some of these arguments, though, and it seems like no-one can be convinced. I’ve seen some incredibly convincing rebuttals based on sound research simply dismissed in favour of far less persuasive arguments. Which is your right; you can make of information what you will.

    I think I remember reading it on Cracked, but somewhere there was an article about how once you have a passionate belief almost no level of rational counter-argument will change your mind. (Edit: Ah! Here it is: http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html) Seems like that’s what’s happening here.

    When someone puts forward an argument that is rebutted, instead of acknowledging the rebuttal they simply put forward a different argument and when that is rebutted, they put forward another, and when that is rebutted they return to the first, seemingly ignoring the original rebuttal.

    One thing that I think would improve this debate would be if people start referencing their sources (though of course, some people have – and thanks for that). This isn’t just in the interest of improving your argument but in terms of actually educating others. It’s one thing to say, “reports about adverse reactions to vaccines under-represent the number of incidences because doctors fail to report or fail attribute it to the vaccine”, and quite another to back up your argument with a reputable source.

    I will admit that I am pro-vaccinations, but I like to think that I’m one of the people more likely to be open to contradiction. However, in order for you to succeed in swaying me, I need reputable sources to read. Sources that haven’t previously been very convincingly disproved. Or alternatively, you need to convincingly disprove the source that convincingly disproved your source.

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      Still have questions

      I actually have a reference about the under reporting of vaccines. It is in a book that I lent out. Once I get it back I will put it up :)

      Again, it makes sense to me that they are under reported because it has happened to people I know.

      Again, they are always considered as “coincidence”

      But your experiences are obviously different.

      And yes I know, anecdotal evidence does not mean anything when it comes to the realm of science. But apparently it is completely fine to use anecdotal evidence when it comes to argueing that vaccines caused the decline of disease. When really all we have is anecdotal evidence and a mere correlation to argue that point.

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        CS

        Some vague book that you conveniently lent out is not evidence. In any case it is not a primary source material and hence is poor evidence.
        Primary source material would be the findings of a clinical trial, or a meta-analysis such as a Cochrane review. Something based on evidence with minimal bias, not cherry picked data to prove your starting point.
        Plenty of crappy books full of lies get published all the time, it doesn’t mean there is any evidence or sanity in them. After all, Hitler got Mien Kampf published.

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      Jane DJ

      “When someone puts forward an argument that is rebutted, instead of acknowledging the rebuttal they simply put forward a different argument and when that is rebutted, they put forward another, and when that is rebutted they return to the first, seemingly ignoring the original rebuttal.”

      THis mis-information technique is referred to as a Gish Gallop and it is the go-to technique employed by anti-vax proponents all the time – throwing out hundreds of little factoids and arguments in order to a) sound authoritative and b) confuse. Fact checking their statements is both tedious and time consuming: the “Gish Gallop” allows them to make dozens of absurd claims without risk of being challenged.

      The legitimatly informed posters will reference their sources, the bogus elements will say “Oh, I read it in a book that I leant out” or “I’m not on my home computer” – and that’s the last you’ll hear of their response to that particular argument, because while you spend time researching and citing data that rebutt their claims, they are busily making up more furphys (Gish Galloping) further down the post….

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        blu-k

        The Gish Gallop – thanks for that bit of info! Sounds a lot like what climate change deniers do too – no amount of data ever seems to satisfy them … or if it does, they move onto all the economic reasons not to do anything anyway!

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          Jane DJ

          It’s important for the laypeople to be aware of the manipulative techniques used by anti-vax proponents. I am pretty sure I won’t be changing the diehard anti-vaxer minds any time soon ( be assured, that if a person or group’s main source of income is through the promoting of a Conspiracy Theory they will NEVER give it up. Never. No matter how many times or ways it is shown to be false), but I know there are genuine inquiring minds lurking out there, reading through all these posts, and it is they who I hope to help navigate through the Googleplex of information and mis-information out there on vaccination.

          So what may first appear as “Gee, they know SO much about the dangers of vaccination” becomes “Gees, what a load of unsubstantiated shite”.

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    Anonymous

    Anyone heard of Dr Joseph Mercola? A respected US physician whose website has all the latest info on vaccination. Includes the latest on Dr Andrew Wakefield – “New evidence refutes fraud findings”. Very interesting indeed.

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      Andy

      I just looked up “respected” in the dictionary and I think you need a new one.

      Edited to add:

      …and our own Dr Rachie trashed him in the Shorty Awards. Dr Mercola was, shall we say, unimpressed.

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        Belinda

        He’s respected because he’s brave enough to have an open discussion about vaccination. It’s not about being anti vax but about how we can make them safer because they certainly aren’t. 

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          tinkerbell

          No Belinda, he is antivax to the core.

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      mochuck

      Joseph Mercola a respected physician? Give me a break. For a start he is not a physician he is an osteopath who calls himself a doctor. He is a quack! Have you looked at his website? Its all about selling products.

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      trixie melodian

      I know, I know, it’s already been said, but it has to be repeated… “Dr” Joseph Mercola – respected??!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

      He is the biggest and most reliably UNreliable quack anyone is ever going to come across! His website is a mishmash of conspiracy theories, snake oil sales pitches and pseudoscientific bullshit designed to confuse and misguide.

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    lucindainthesky

    This discussion is doing my head in. Just sayin’.

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    Amandarose

    I have a question – I am just curious about death rates and immunisation. I realise when immunisation was brought in death rates and incidence dropped.

    What is more difficult to analyse is if someone is more prone to an illness who dies of whooping cough wouldn’t have just caught something else if they had been immunised and died of pneumonia or the flu instead? I.E it is not so much the disease that decides who lives and dies but how healthy their immunise system is anyway.

    I am not anti Vax but it is just something I have wondered that is never mentioned.

    India is now Polio free but has this changed the overall death rate in India.

    If 15 babies die in Australia for whooping cough how many of those 15 may have died of something else if it came along first?

    I have no idea which way it would go

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      lucinda

      Amanda of course there will always be people who are “sickly” and tend to me a bit immune deficient for some reason or another. And babies and old people will always very low immune systems too. Is there a chance that someone who is spared a death from whooping cough might die from another disease instead? Yes, absolutely. But they might die in a car crash or drown too. Playing the numbers game is pointless though. Those vulnerable people are exactly the reason we SHOULD vaccinate. Vaccinations LESSEN the incidence of disease in a community and therefore lessen the chances of transmission to someone who is “sickly”. Not vaccinating because the person who dies of a vaccine preventable disease might die of something else is a pretty selfish and scary way to be thinking don’t you think? If you were the vulnerable sickly one, wouldn’t you want all the protection you could get? Would you appreciate other people playing russian roulette and thinking that maybe you’ll die anyway, so it doesn’t matter?

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      Jori

      Whooping cough is deadly to small babies because their airways are still so tiny they easily get clogged with the thick mucus produced by the pertussis bacteria. Their lungs and diaphragm also aren’t always developed enough to cough as deeply as necessary to move the thick mucus, so they suffocate.

      Whooping cough is a specific infection by a bacteria called Bordetella pertussis, pneumonia is just an inflammation of the lungs. You can get pneumonia on top of whooping cough. And we all know that the severity of flu depends on the virus behind it, there are strains of flu that make the rounds every year and we all get over it, and then we have swine flu and SARS which are much more deadly.

      In answer to your question, it has nothing to do with the babies who have died being weaker or having a defective immune system. It is just the nature of this particular disease that all babies, particularly newborns, are much more vulnerable due to their small airways.

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      CS

      India isn’t polio free! Nor is Australia! Polio is no longer ENDEMIC, which is vastly different to eradicated.
      We still get a few polio cases in Australia every year, although granted these are usually from recent immigrants and/or their direct contacts.
      Which is why we still vaccinate against polio – it’s not gone altogether.

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    raised anti-vacc

    Another aspect of the debate are the long term consequences for children who are not immunized as they grow up, reach adulthood and have children of their own. My parents did not vaccinate and I’ve acquired immunity to most diseases the old fashioned way, including coming down with measles when I was 37 weeks pregnant with my first child. If I had gone into labour while infectious with measles I would very likely have passed it on to my newborn, with possibly dire consequences. Thankfully I was very lucky.

    However, both chicken pox and rubella can cause birth defects in pregnant women during the first trimester. The chances of a fetus exposed to rubella in the first trimester developing congenital rubella syndrome is over 50% high, according to the CDC:

    “During the 1962–1965 worldwide rubella epidemic, an estimated 12.5 million cases of rubella occurred in the United States, resulting in 2,000 cases of encephalitis, 11,250 fetal deaths, 2,100 neonatal deaths, and 20,000 infants born with CRS, a constellation of birth defects that often includes blindness, deafness, and congenital heart defects.”

    The MMR vaccine has virtually eradicated these numbers in the US. Before immunization was widespread, epidemics of rubella would cycle every 8-10 years.

    Just because you aren’t immunized as a child doesn’t mean you will get the disease and gain immunity as a child. This has consequences for females, particularly when they reach childbearing age. Also what about hep B and the risk of getting it at preschool? Are anti-vaccers also against protection against a possibly chronic disease?

    With my background of hearing so much scaremongering regarding vaccines I was hesitant to vaccinate my own children. However, I did the research and was satisfied that the risks associated with the vaccine were much lower than contracting each illness, so my kids and I are now fully vaccinated. I’ve also urged my sisters to get vaccinated as they are at risk of contracting rubella while pregnant, as they have never had it.

    I just wanted to add that the risk is not only to newborns via whooping cough, but also to fetuses whose mothers might contract diseases either because they’ve not been immunized or because the immunization didn’t “take”.

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      Kris2040

      How do your parents feel about you getting vaccinated now and getting your kids vaccinated?

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        raised anti-vacc

        I’m not entirely sure. I think they might still be scared of vaccines and therefore not completely approve, but it’s not actually something I’ve asked their opinion on recently.

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          Kris2040

          I’d imagine it’s not something that would be a fun conversation!

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            Why?

            I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be a ‘fun conversation’?

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              Kris2040

              Because if her parents have strong beliefs about not vaccinating, they may well freak out about their kids doing it to themselves and their kids.

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      Acanberramum

      Not to mention the lifelong consequences when adolescent or young adult males contract mumps following puberty and are rendered infertile for life.

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    trixie melodian

    Great article:

    “One of the most attractive aspects of vaccine rejectionism, indeed of all “alternative” health, is that no particular knowledge is necessary to declare yourself an expert. It doesn’t matter that you don’t have even the most basic knowledge of science and statistics. It doesn’t matter that you don’t have any understanding at all of the complex fields of immunology or virology. Your personal experience qualifies you as an expert…

    Vaccine rejectionism is not simply based on factual errors and a pervasive failure to understand basic science and statistics, as well as immunology and virology. It is also based on a denial of the need for specific knowledge and a disparagement of such knowledge. By elevating “personal experience” to the same or even higher level than actual knowledge of the relevant subject matter, vaccine rejectionism makes everyone an “expert.” Instead of imparting new knowledge, instead of protecting children, however, it merely flatters the ignorant.”

    http://weareskeptixx.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-appeal-of-vaccine-rejectionism-it-flatters-the-ignorant/

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      Anonymous

      I can see what the article is trtying to say. But in my experience, just merely asking questions meant that I was considered a quack.

      That is what makes me question more.

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        trixie melodian

        I don’t think most medical professionals have a problem with people asking questions, but it’s when the same questions are asked over and over again despite the answers being out there, in a clear attempt to sow doubt (as per @curious and @plain jaine) that they fall into the category described in this article.

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        Andy

        What were the questions?

        And do you ask your mechanic similar questions about your car?

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          Anonymous

          That is the most ridiculous thing anyone pro vax could say.

          I would imagine that many would not ask questions about their car. But, yes I do. I get a few different opinions sometimes to suss it all out.

          And to infer that someone who tries to make an informed choice is somehow a crackpot is simply and utter nonsense.

          In my opinion it is crazy to not consider both sides of the debate when it comes to vaccines.

          My child was critically ill. I was told he would die. I was also told that I must do a whole bunch of treatments/test. So, I researched and did some recommneded things and whilst not others. When the doctor did not agree they sent me to the top specialist in Australia to see if they could convince me. I then put forward what my argument was and he agreed and gave a reference to my doctor to prove it.

          Asking question saved my child. I would argue that is useful.

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            trixie melodian

            Asking questions isn’t the problem, it’s ignoring the answers.

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            Andy

            I”m genuinely interested.

            One thing I see on many anti-vax sites is “I asked my doctor what is in vaccines and he couldn’t/wouldn’t tell me. No way am I letting him inject it in my kid”

            Which leads me to wonder if the same principle is applied to everything. Do they ask their mechanic to list the ingredients in motor oil or the products used to make brake discs? Do they ask the lunch bar about the total list of ingredients in a ham roll? Do any of them know the chemicals in an apple? Do they care?

            Do any of them know the failure rate of brake discs or seat belts? Do they care? Do they know how many people have died as a result of bridges collapsing or the statistics related to choking on ham sandwiches? Do they avoid them? Do they care?

            It intrigues me. Which is why I wondered what questions you were asking and if you ask similar questions of everyone you deal with in every aspect of your life. And, if not, what makes vaccines special (which you addressed)?

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    freemel

    has two daughters that came home from school a week ago with a vaccination note. They are fully vaccinated, including the chickepox vaccination. Both girls have had the chicken pox vaccine in the first week it was available, as my mother ofter told us the horror story of my sister and I having the chicken pox as small children. Apparently the immunity provided by the single vaccination is less effective, so a booster vaccine is now recommended as part of the 12 y.o vaccinations – and yes – my kids will be having the vacccination.

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    Jay

    I read a blog called “Respectful Insolence” regularly. The blogger (says he) is a medical researcher and he often analyses various medical research which as a layperson I find interesting. The vaccination stuff comes up often and the commenters are often very interesting as well. http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/yes_virginia_there_is_an_antivaccine_movement.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+scienceblogs%2Finsolence+%28Respectful+Insolence%29

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    anony-mouse

    Has anyone else noticed how the anti vaccination squad all seem to be really shocking spellers? Sorry but your arguments against immunisation are null and void if you can’t differentiate between your and you’re, and their, there and they’re.

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      Still some questions.

      Hey anony-mouse.

      Do you want to know something?

      I am still questioning whether I will vaccinate or not. And your ridiculing and mocking is for what? Bullying myself and others into doing something that you do not know the answer for?

      Correct! Ain’t I.

      If all you can do is mock the little spelling or grammtaical errors I made, than it shows just how little you know.

      I am asking legitamate questions that need to be addressed before I make my decision.

      Do you have an answer for my question below?

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        anony-mouse

        I was talking about full on anti vaxxers, not those just asking questions. Although some of the question askers could find the answers with 5 minutes of reading on this website alone.

        Also you can’t spell either.

        As for your questions below, after mass vaccinations, the rate of infection for many diseases declined RAPIDLY. Very very rapidly. They were not on a steep decline before vaccinations. They didn’t disappear by magic – just look at the statistics for third world countries who don’t have access to vaccinations for some of these diseases… guess what? They are still there. And people die from them. Use your common sense.

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          Still some questions

          I Your statement that ” diseases declined RAPIDLY. Very very rapidly” is incorrect.

          According to the so called expert Rachel Dunlop it has contributed.

          Plus government data shows it was already in decline.

          Now you ask me to use my common sense?

          Well my common sense is not so common is it? Because I am allowing myself to research and want my answers before I give my child a whole bunch of vaccines. So mt sense would not be so common seeing that 95% just vaccinate their children.

          Now if diseases were in decline and not only the governemt, but the pro vax supporters admit this, than my questions is legitamate.

          I will ask again for someone else who may have the answer shall I?

          If the diseases/death rates were in decline and the GOVERNMENT and PRO VAXERS admit this, than how can we attribuite a causal relationship?

          And for your answer on why diseases still exist in third world countries- Well lets look at this logically. The government and so called experts suggest that good hygiene, better standard of living and sanitation significantly contributed to the decline in our own countries. Now guess whats lacking in third world countries?

          I think you guessed right!

          And for the last time. If you can get my legitamate questions answered, than that would be indeed be helpful. I have a serious decision to make!

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            trixie melodian

            “Death” and “incidence” rates are very different. Death rates declined due to improved medical treatments including the iron lung for polio sufferers. Death rates do NOT show the long term disabilities that resulted from many of these diseases (paralysis, brain damage).

            *Incidence* rates decreased dramatically after the introduction of vaccines, see the graph below, and my earlier post about the introduction of the HIB vaccine in Australia in the early 1990s.

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              Chuck

              Source, please.

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              Anonymous

              That is what I wanted! Some facts to help me. But out of curiosity, what is the source?

              So what are the statistics for the long term conseqeunces of these illnesses?

              Plus just to add, that from the government information I have, good hygiene, standard of living, plus better medical and sanitaion contributed. So, not just better medicare.

              But thank you so much for that.

              Now, I have seen graphs where they show 99% decline in death rates before the vaccines was introduced. Have you seen those facts?

              Now, going back to my opriginal question. Just like we claim that the increase of autism is coincidental to the inccrease of our vaccine schedule, why can we claim that there is a causal relationship in the instance of the further reduction of vaccines incidences?

              How can you say its a causal relationship, just by looking at that graph? Could it be a coincidence too?

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              trixie melodian

              Sorry, it’s from the CDC.
              http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Diseaseshadalready

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              Paul

              That’s an accurate USA measles graph. Deaths and infection virtually parallel each other. Confirmation here via US Census:

              http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec31.pdf

              The claim that improved living standards wiped out disease is ridiculous. Yes, it reduced mortality as better nutrition, clean water, clean linen etc improved recovery – but had no impact on specific immunity nor incidence of infection. Only vaccines did this.

              To swiftly debunk this claim consider Hib vaccination which was introduced in 1993 and had demolished Hib by 2005. Fatalities were gone in 7 years.

              Here’s an excellent deconstruction of tricks used by anti-vaccination lobbyists to fool people with false graphs.
              http://www.software3d.com/Home/Vax/Graphs.php

              Also:
              http://www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2009/09/02/measles-deaths-pre-vaccine/

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              Shannon

              @Paul: That link to Webb’s article on the misrepresentation and manipulation of available data was very interesting (disturbing?), thank you for sharing!

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              Anonymous

              @Paul. I read that document. I am glad I did, because it was informative about that 12 year cherry picking stuff which I was not aware of. That is such an awesome point :)

              However, disease rates were on the decline before vaccines. Death rates did virtually dissapate too.

              You continue to argue that death rates are irrelavant too. It is probably better to say death rates are irrelavant for you. But they are certainly relevant for me.

              If hardly anyone is dying anymore and we introduce something that does have more side effects than what we care to admit. Well according to that Vaers report. To me, it seems like vaccines at best may have helped, but in reality its only a “maybe”. There is no causal relationship. Just a further decline of illness/death rates.

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              Gillian

              Show me the graph with pre 1950 on it, Paul, show me the graph with pre 1993 on it.

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              Paul

              Death rates fell due to lower birth rates – and also 2 world wars. Less babies born = less infant fatality.
              The issue is some say vaccines had no effect because mortality fell. This is not disputed. Recovery was improving and general immunity (host resistance) follows improved nutrition.

              But this fact does not eliminate vaccines as the sole factor in removing wide scale infection, disability and death as a result of these diseases.

              Doctored graphs are used to mislead. It is in effect deception.

              @Gillian. Why? Find it yourself. I have them so you can access them too. Viruses don’t just sit there in stasis. They are organisms that adjust to human activity and population size. All you need know is that by 1991 Hib was killing many children. Before the vaccine there were “at least 500 cases of Hib disease in Australian children <6 years of age every year, and a total of 10 to 15 deaths", according to Immunise Australia.

              Now, other factors supersede stupid graphs. Such as Hib being almost unknown and less common than Hi type A.

              Measles killed without fail during each epidemic and always maintained background fatalities. As Henry Lawson wrote of the 1880 epidemic (during which time there were children's hospitals in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane):

              "Our first child took—a cruel week in dyin’, …
              I’ve pulled three through and buried two
              Since then—and I’m past carin’."

              Killed half his family.

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            Faybian

            India, which despite increasing wealth and industrialization is still a third world country has gone a year without polio recently. Sanitation has not done this, vaccination has. Also consider that smallpox is eradicated world wide, including in third world countries because of immunisation.

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              Anonymous

              That is also something compelling to know more about. Have you got a reference explaining the details?

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              Faybian

              You can find it anywhere on the Internet, but look up the UNICEF (press release) site. I suspect it would be on the WHO site as well.

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            Faybian

            I would hazard a guess that your “nom de plume” is a bit misleading. I think you’ve made your decision to to immunise and are simply on this site to “shit stir”. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

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      Chuck

      The pro-vaxxers can’t punctuate so that makes it even then.

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        trixie melodian

        There should be a comma between ‘punctuate’ and ‘so’.

        If you use ‘then’ you don’t need to use ‘so’ as well, but if you do, there should be a comma before ‘then’ as well.

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          lucindainthesky

          This made me giggle Trixie :D

          Another way of writing it would be to include a semi colon:

          The pro-vaxxers can’t puncuate; that makes it even.

          Although… maybe a full stop would work better. Okay, I’m dizzy now. Haha.

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          lucindainthesky

          This made me giggle Trixie :D

          Another way of writing it would be to include a semi colon:

          The pro-vaxxers can’t puncuate; that makes it even.

          Although… maybe a full stop would work better. Okay, I’m dizzy now. Haha.

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    inkabinka

    Considering that at 9 months of age I caught measles, and spent a week in intensive care, with my parents being told it didn’t look like I’ll make it, I will ensure MY children are immunised.
    I have read that Meryl got so involved in this because her child had an adverse reaction- but I cannot for the life of me find anything that says what this reaction was… does anybody know?

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    Still some questions.

    There is alot of talk about confusing causation with correlation.

    So, this is what I would like to know.

    We all admit and agree that the diseases/death rates had dramatically declined before vaccines were introduced.

    Yes?

    Ok. Now, the pro vaxxers claim that it is simply a correlation when millions of parents cry out for help when their child has a serious reaction.

    Yes?

    Now, what I would like to know is this?- if that is a correlation, then how can we attribute a causal relationship between the further decline of diseases to the introduction of vaccines, when it is simply not only coincidentle to the further decline after vaccine introduction, but was in decline to begin with?

    In other words. The death rates/disease rates were on the decline. Then vaccines were introduced and they continued to decline. So where is the causal relationship in that?

    It seems that there is no causal relationship as the only way we can attribute a causal relationship is by doing a double blind study.

    In other words. Pro vaxxers claim vaccine injuries are rare because parents crying out for help are imagining their children’s pain after a vaccine, simply because of the timing and therefore it must be a correlation. But yet, are happy to attribute a causal relationship for something that was in decline anyway?

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      Rosie

      Hi there,

      While I’m not a qualified expert, I’d like to do my best to answer your questions if I can. Cards on the table: I am a student doctor who believes very strongly in vaccinations, and if I can provide any answers that would help you make the best decision for your children, I would be glad to help.

      First, I’d like to clarify a small point that often gets confused: medical definitions of terms are different from lay-terms. When a doctor talks about an ‘adverse reaction’ as compared to a ‘reaction’, they mean very different things. A reaction can be anything from a sore arm, a fever, or a swollen area at the injection site. These are all well-documented reactions to injecting any substance into the body, and are expected and not considered to cause long-term harm. Unpleasant in the short term, for certain, but they go away in a few days. Parents who report these to doctors are right to be concerned, but they should accept the given reassurance that these are not dangerous. These are not reported because they are already well-documented. Qualified doctors should be able to differentiate between a mild reaction, such as pain, and an ‘adverse reaction’.

      An adverse reaction, on the other hand, is much less common and a lot more severe – something like anaphylactic shock. These are generally not managed by the GP, but are referred to the hospital. I’ve never seen it happen in my career, but there is paperwork for reporting these incidents that doctors are legally required to fill out. Generally this is done as part of the huuuuge stack of paperwork that is done every day in a hospital, without further involvement from the parents, so they might not always be aware that a report has been sent. I hope that makes sense.

      As for a double-blinded trial, I have not read all the extensive literature regarding vaccinations (there are thousands of articles in medical journals and I don’t have that much free time!), but I have read a lot. I have also had a very large number of statistics classes, and I was even awake for most of them. And the conclusion of all of that was: double-blinded trials are good, but they are definitely not the only way of proving something. Scientists much smarter than me have come up with a huge variety of different methods of testing whether or not something works, and each one has strengths and weaknesses. Double-blinded trials are only one of many, and they are certainly not always the best.

      Do you know, there have been no double-blinded trials of parachutes, either? We have no statistically-proven double-blinded evidence about whether or not parachutes save lives. But no one is going to do that trial, because we already have enough evidence to say that parachutes are a good idea. It is the same for vaccination: the scientific evidence is so extensive that no ethics committee in the world would give approval for a double-blinded trial of vaccination. It would be considered unethical not to give the children the immunisations, because we already have so much evidence that it works. While double-blinded trials are good for answering some types of questions, they are by no means the only method of scientific investigation, nor are they always appropriate.

      There have been so many studies done and papers written about immunisations, in a huge number of different languages – because we want to be able these questions for concerned parents like you. And for another reason, too: as doctors, we really, really want to know if there are problems with a vaccine. If there were, I would not hesitate to tell my patients. No doctor wants to be responsible for harm. If I, as a medical professional, ever recommended something that was not in the best interests of that patient and it turned out to have horrible unknown side effects, I would feel absolutely terrible. I would feel ridiculously guilty. I don’t know how I would be able to live with it. No doctor wants to give any drug or immunisation that they do not believe is going to do the best thing for the patient. It would be a terrible thing to have on your conscience.

      I hope that helps with a few of your questions! If you have more, I will try to do my best to answer them for you.

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        trixie melodian

        I LOVE the parachute analogy!

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        Anonymous

        This was fantastic, Rosie. Thank you for your time. I have a baby son who will be getting all of the recommended vaccinations. One thing I have wondered, briefly, is where the rumour came from that linked autism to vaccinations? I know it has been disproven but I am curious how it got legs! Thanks :)

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          Faybian

          Google dr Andrew Wakefield. He did a subsequently discredited study that linked the MMR vaccine to autism. The problems were (from what I remember off the too of my head) his study sample was very small, non randomized and he fiddled with his resulting data. The study as I said was later discredited and he has been struck off the medical practitioners register in the UK.
          Also a (b grade) actress Jenny McCarthy in the US has publicly stated that it gave her “crystal child” autism, which she also claims that she has successfully treated herself, I guess using alternative therapies.
          Another factor is the fact that the MMR is given at a time Ina toddlers life when he/she may be starting to display some traits associated with ASD, so it’s kind of a convenient “blame” for distressed parents that may be wanting something to blame.
          Hope that helps a bit.

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          Rosie

          Thanks, I’m glad it was helpful! And congratulations on your son. :)

          As for the link between autism and vaccinations, it is quite an interesting story. In 1998, the Lancet (a very highly respected medical journal) published a paper by Dr Andrew Wakefield and a number of other authors which suggested a link between autism, bowel disease, and the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine. While the paper did not conclude that the combined MMR vaccine causes autism, it raised concerns that there could be confluence between the two. Of course, this caused quite a lot of upset, and a lot of money was put towards research to try and confirm whether or not it was true.

          Now, one of the important things to know about science is that it is really, really hard to prove a negative. It is almost impossible. The only way to do it is to rule things out time and time again, which is what happened.

          The original study was on a very small group of children (twelve, out of which eight were identified as having autism that could potentially be linked to vaccination), and the subsequent research that was done was on a much, much larger scale. Fast-forward to several years later, and no one has been able to replicate the results from the Wakefield study. This is despite efforts in many different countries, from many different universities and governments. In fact, not one single study was able to find a connection the way the Wakefield paper did.

          And then the real upset started: it came out that Wakefield had received a lot of funding by lawyers working to sue pharmaceutical companies for vaccines causing autism. This was a massive conflict of interest. The other authors of the paper (medical papers usually have lots of authors, though the first author is the main one) published a retraction that said: “We wish to make it clear that in this paper no causal link was established between (the) vaccine and autism, as the data were insufficient. However the possibility of such a link was raised, and consequent events have had major implications for public health. In view of this, we consider now is the appropriate time that we should together formally retract the interpretation placed upon these findings in the paper, according to precedent.”

          The Lancet retracted the Wakefield paper as well. There was an investigation into the study, and it was found that not only did Wakefield get paid a lot of money for the findings, he also falsifed some of the data, changed timelines to suit his own purposes, and conducted procedures on the autistic children that were deemed unnecessary and unethical, such as lumbar punctures (which are fine if there is a reason to do them – but there wasn’t, and he didn’t get ethics approval for it either). Wakefield was stripped of his medical licence after a lengthy hearing by the British Medical Council. There was a series in the British Medical Journal (one of the most highly regarded journals in the world) that concluded Wakefield’s results were both unethically financed and fraudulent.

          The Lancet published this statement about the paper: “It was utterly clear, without any ambiguity at all, that the statements in the paper were utterly false.”

          However, there are still a number of people who believe that Wakefield has been wrongly persecuted for telling a truth that no one wants to hear. These people continue to link vaccines to autism, despite the fact this was never a firm conclusion in the study, despite the fact that the supposed link was only for the combined MMR and that Wakefield himself claimed that separating the vaccines into three individual jabs, instead of just the one, was the best way to avoid any risk of harm.

          This is basically a really brief (well, sort of brief) summary. If you want to know more, I think the book “The Panic Virus” is probably a good place to start. While I haven’t yet had the chance to read it myself (no time, sadly!), I’ve heard very good things about it. Hope that answered your question!

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            Anonymous

            Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question (and for your congratulations!). Of course I was going to vaccinate anyway but I feel much better about it now. You are a really good writer and very good at explaining medical information in plain english. Maybe you could consider writing the odd article for this site? I would love to read that. Thank you again.

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              Rosie

              (Drive-by comment on my way to work)

              Thank you! This comment made me smile all day yesterday. I love writing, and it’s really great to hear the info was helpful for you. Of course I’d be honoured to do a post for the site, but they already have some really great writers so they probably don’t need a hobbyist with very little spare time like me. :)

              Thanks again, and all the best!

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            Kris2040

            The Panic Virus is available as an E-Book. Sadly Andrew Wakefield’s book (with a foreword by Jenny McCarthy – so you KNOW it’s quality) is at my local library.

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              Anonymous

              That is so funny about the foreword! Is that seriously the best he could do!

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              Kris2040

              Heh. I also forgot to mention the name of it. “Callous Disregard”. Ironic, no?

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              lucindainthesky

              Hey Kris I tried to find the Panic Virus kindle edition and it is only available for users in the US on Amazon, but not Australia. Where abouts did you buy it from?

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              Kris2040

              I’ve only got Deadly Choices so far – I had The Panic Virus on my wishlist and I’m positive it was a Kindle version. Maybe it’s changed?? I did my wishlist in October – could’ve changed since then for some reason. Bugger!

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        Still have questions.

        Rosie- You are wonderful and I am grateful that you answered that with so much respect.

        I have a science degree and now looking at doing my honors. I have done 3 years of statistics and excelled in both 2nd year stats and 3rd year stats. hence, I got distinctions and HIgh distinctions. My grades are high enough to be accepted into honors in the most influential univeristy for my subject choice.

        BUT, I too am no expert.

        However this is why I KNOW that parachute analogy ( although it is lovely) is not relative to the causation argument with reference to vaccines. You would know that the ONLY way you can attribute a causal relationship with anything medical is through double blind placebo studies. At best we can say there is a correlation and the strength of that correlation is such and such.

        As the vaccine schedule increased by over 200%, so did the rates of autism. This is considered a correlation.

        Also death rates had virtually dissapated before vaccine introduction. Disease rates were on the decline as well, but not as much.
        So when we introduced vaccines and there was a further decline, that too is a correlation.

        In other words. Vaccines did not cause the decline. We do not know this. No scientist on the planet can say this. There is a correlation.

        So, my stance at the moment is why are we happy to attribute a causal relationship to vaccines and decline of illness, when it is simply a correlation. But yet, are happy to say that all the increase in childhood illnesses that coincide with a 200% increase in childhood vaccines is simply a correlation and a coincidence?

        That is my whole point. We have been told that there is a causal relationship when we indeed can at best claim a correlation.

        I can only go by my personal experience when it comes to reporting of serious vaccine injuries. All 5 people I know were not reported because every reaction seems to be considered a mere coincidence.

        This whole coincidence arguemnt seems to be used freely to support both sides of the debate and to be honest, I would have to go through the raw data and take it to a professor to help me analyse it to learn the truth.

        You may then say, but there are already people who have done that. This is true. There are people who have got what appears reasonable data to argue BOTH sides of the debate.

        I also lean’t in ethics that MOST researchers have their own biases. I also lean’t about peer reviewed articles and how it all works.

        I also learn’t that there is so much pressure on researchers who are paid by a company to achieve a certain result. I also learn’t how we can change statistical analysis if we do not get the results we want. I also learn’t that when I was approached by a company to do some research my professor encourgaed me not to because of the pressures to change our statistical analysis to suit their agenda. He said its like selling your soul to the devil.

        I am not saying every researcher on this planet is doing this either. but I can see how and why it could and would happen.

        I have read stuff from both sides and both are compelling.

        I would be interested to find out how many of the 10000′s of papers have been funded by the companies itself.

        Anyway. Just sayin.

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          Rosie

          Ok, this is the third time I’ve tried to respond. Hope it works this time!

          Thanks for your reply. From what I can understand, and please correct me if I’m wrong, you seem to have two major points here. The first is that you have concerns regarding the efficacy of vaccination in preventing disease. The second is that you have concerns that vaccination may cause autism. These are two separate topics entirely: one is a question of efficacy, and one is a question of harm. I’ll do my best to respond to both.

          The first point has been addressed by other commenters above, and by the Cetre for Disease Control in America here: (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Diseaseshadalready). As you would be aware from your science background, and might even know better than me, the tests we can do on sets of numbers these days are amazing. The statistical methods of determining significance in data allow us to look beyond the simple terms of correlation and causation and determine with precision how likely things are to be related. We can compare incidence with prevalence (though personally I still sometimes get them confused!), and we can use calculations like p-values, relative risk, number needed to harm, and other tests of significance wich have allowed us to be statistically certain even in the absence of the so-called gold standard RCT (randomised controlled trial, sometimes known as a double-blinded trial). As such, the data we have is extremely convincing to those who can understand the tests. Others without a science background may have more difficulty with all the crazy fancy things scientists do with numbers, but I think the CDC explains it very well without descending into jargon, at the site I linked above. All this leads to the conculsion that yes, vaccines are effective in preventing disease. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would be happy to take it into consideration, but I have not yet heard any suggestion from any reputable source that suggests vaccination is not an effective way of preventing disease.

          The second question has to do with the risk of harm from vaccines, and more specifically, autism. I have discussed the origins and the subsequent discrediting of this in a comment above. The combined vaccine for measles, mumps, and rubella was the only one ever potentially linked to autism. That link was made by one study of twelve children and has since been found to be utterly fraudulent by the highest medical authorities we have.

          While it would be foolish to suggest that there have never been and will never be any side effects from vaccines, autism is certainly one possible consequence that has been completely discredited. No reptuable linkage between the two exists at this point. However, vaccination is a medical procedure that has some potential side effects, just like any other medical procedure. These are, as I said in my above comment, usually things like a sore arm or a fever, and they pass in time. This is also discussed by the CDC, here: (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Vaccinescause)

          The other thing to consider is the risk of not vaccinating. These diseases – mumps, measles, whooping cough, Hib, polio, smallpox – are potentially fatal. They are also incredibly unpleasant to have, or to see another human suffering through. As I have said below, seeing a tiny baby with whooping cough has been one of the hardest and most painful moments of my career, and the baby survived. The reason vaccines were developed in the first place was to get rid of these horrible diseases as best we could, and now that they are so much less common it is easy to forget just how bad they can be, especially for small children. I think this is something that is really important to keep in mind.

          As I’ve been typing this, I will admit that I have been wondering whether or not you will read and listen to my response, or whether you will just brush past my answers without engaging with them, as others have done in the comments to this post. I hate that I’ve become so cynical about this! I really hope you will prove me wrong. :)

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            Anonymous

            Your a sweetheart Rosie.

            I will definately not brush off what you have written. I think though you have brushed off what I have written because it is your training to do so. Not because your mean. I will dispute your claim that there are no links at all between vaccines and autism. I am not on my home computor atm, but once I do, I will show you some data that proves the door has not been closed on that one. In fact, there is a government committe in the US that suggested the connection between a small subset of the populatioon, autism and vaccines is still plausable to investigate. Furthermore, the ex head official of the NIC (I think thats the name) came out in public a couple opf years ago saying that in tose tsudioes that disproved the link had deliberately left out the children who are most susceptible to a reaction. This does not make sense to me to do as these children are aolways vaccinated anyway.

            I am assuming you have not seen any of the data that is contrary to your view. None at all. Am I correct?

            I probably do have a better understanding of stats than you, but I still get myself confused too lol. From what my professor was saying that most research academics come to him for advise on how to analyse data anyway. So we are not alone!! lol. But I can say with almost 100% certainty ( I do need to get his help in looking at it to make sure) that there is no causal relationship between the further decline of diseases and vaccine introduction. This does not mean that vaccines did not contribute to better the disease rates either. It just means that there is no causal relationship.

            Statistics are great, but last year we were shown how to get a non significant result and a significant one by using two separate test. Have you not been taught that?

            I cant imagine what its like to watch a child with whooping cough. I can say that I watched my child fight for life and it was the most excruciating experience of my life.

            can you imagine whats its like for parents who watch their child suffer from a vaccine injury to then have doctors tell them its just a coincidence? Apparently they do not even investigate because they have been conditioned to believe that such reactions are so rare.

            Nothing more would enrage me.

            Anyway. I am going to read everything you post and come back to you.

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              Rosie

              Just dropping a quick comment here to say that because I’m back on the wards during the week, I won’t get the chance to respond to you properly for a few days. Thanks for your reply and feel free to ask any more questions you might have! I’ll try to get back to you when I have the chance. :)

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          Jane DJ

          “I have a science degree and now looking at doing my honors. I have done 3 years of statistics and excelled in both 2nd year stats and 3rd year stats. hence, I got distinctions and HIgh distinctions. My grades are high enough to be accepted into honors in the most influential univeristy for my subject choice.”

          Is that so? Did you do a double major, because
          most science degrees do not have statistics as second and third year subjects.

          I’m going to call BS on your science degree – no one who ever did the hard yards to complete a science degree or advanced statistics to the point where they were considered for honours would ever diss scientific evidence the way you do.

          Rosie, I applaud the restraint in your excellent replies to this poster.

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          P.T.

          Bravo! Exactly the type of level-headed comment this debate needs. Pro-vaxxers are gnashing their teeth over this post.
          Why? Because they DO NOT want to educate those who may not believe, they only want to pat each other on the back for being rude and slanderous to anyone who disagrees with their ideas.

          The whole point is moot anyway since vaccinations are not compulsory here and to discriminate against anyone for exercising their lawful right to not vaccinate is of course illegal. As is discriminating against anyone for exercising their lawful right to vaccinate.

          What is also interesting is that most pro-vaxxers agree that there should be no forced vaccination requirement, probably because then they would have to pay into a fund for the vaccine injured to compensate for vaccine-related adverse events which may include life-time health care for a vaccine-related injury or a lump sum payment in the case of vaccine-related death.

          Catch 22 really.

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            Jane DJ

            Nope – WRONG. Your unvaccinated- by- choice special little snowflakes do not automatically get to mix with the rest of society, as Greg Beattie found out in 1996 in a landmark decision.

            “. Their evidence has positively persuaded me to the view that the decision of the Council to exclude the children from the child care centre is one which is reasonably necessary to protect public health.”

            COURT
            HUMAN RIGHTS AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY COMMISSION
            DISABILITY DISCRIMINATION ACT 1992
            W CARTER (Inquiry Commissioner)

            HRNG
            Maroochydore, 22-23 July 1996 (hearing(, 20 December 1996 (decision)
            #DATE 20:12:1996
            #ADD 3:2:1997

            Complainant: In person

            Respondent: In person

            ORDER
            Complaint dismissed.

            JUDGE1
            W CARTER (Inquiry Commissioner)

            http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/decisions/comdec/1996/dd000080.htm

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              Anonymous

              I’d it compulsory to vaccinate and is it illegal to refuse a non vaccinated child entry to childcare post that 1996 case? Is it still allowed to discriminate like that?

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              Jane DJ

              The ruling still holds, therefore an establishment is within its legal rights to exclude unvaccinated children, particularly the conscious objector-types.
              Thank god.
              Antivax attempts to persuade parents that they need not vaccinate their children because they cannot be excluded is, bearing in mind the health consequences, unconscionable.

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              Jane DJ

              I should add the ruling holds in that state, other states may not have the same legislation:

              http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/0/70D1A2403572707ACA256ECF00180536/$File/OP06-97.pdf

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              PT

              The ruling still holds in one shire council for private daycare centres. Public schools and independent schools in the same council do not discriminate if you don’t vccinte.

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    lucindainthesky

    I think Doctors have a responsibility to treat all children and babies presented to them – it isn’t their fault if they have ignorant anti-vax parents.

    But I would like parents who chose not to vaccinate without medical exemption to be banned from enroling their children in schools and childcare centres. I work as a teacher in a childcare centre which has just recently had a confirmed case of pertussis in a non vaccinated child. Most kids don’t have full immunity until they have their booster when they are 4 years old, but given that childcare centres have babies under the age of 6 months, who haven’t had all of their three jabs, I feel it is irresponsible for anyone to think it is okay to put those babies at risk by not immunising their own children.

    Whooping cough is out of control up here in FNQ – and I think parents need to be forced to be more vigilant.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-16/whooping-cough-north-queensland/3774096

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      Anonymous

      But whooping cough is out of control is South west sydney and that has the highest vaccination rates.

      Maybe we just need a new vaccine.

      And who told you they are not fully protected until age four?

      I thought that was a booster and they were fully protected by the time they got their 12month jabs.

      And who did the unimmunised child catch whooping cough from? And are you sure they were not immunised?

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        lucindainthesky

        To clarify, immunity wanes very quickly in very young children (for pertussis at least) and that is why they give a booster between 3 1/2 and 4 years of age. After the booster, immunity typically lasts about 6 years which is why the rate of infection is high in 10-12 year olds. Babies will have optimal protection after their 6mth jab for a short period of time.

        I don’t know what your stats are for south west sydney, but in fnq the rate of infection quadrupled last year. It is well and truly on it’s way this year to doubling again. It seems to be that regional areas full of hippies are having dropping vaccination rates and higher rates of disease. I’d be curious to know the numbers for other areas though. There has been talk of the whooping cough virus mutating to something that vaccinations aren’t working on, but I’m not so sure about that. I am sure they are researching it as we battle out it out here and if it is true, they will develop a new vaccine. Still no excuse to opt of vaccinating your children though.

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          Anonymous

          You say your not sure if whooping cough is mutating and therefore your not sure if the vaccine is effective, but yet are willing to suggest that we must still vaccinate regardless?

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            lucinda

            absolutely!!! If evidence is produced that the virus has mutated and a new vaccine is created, then we switch vaccines. Until then, business as usual. Are you suggesting we just stop vaccinating abruptly and risk making the epidemic even worse, just on a hunch that the virus has changed????

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              Anonymous

              Nope. I am suggesting do what you feel is best.

              I would not have that hanging around my head.

              But you seem ok with not knowing the vaccine is working, but yet bullying others into doing something that may not be working.

              Thus, if there is uncertainty on the efficacy of the vaccine, than surely you could respect a loving parent questioning whether they want to take that risk?

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              lucinda

              What risk? There is almost no risk involved in administering vaccines, and as far science tells us, everything to gain. As with everything in medical science, there will always be research and always be advances… that doesn’t mean that what we have doesn’t work. I said there had been “talk” of the possibility that the pertussis virus had mutated. There is no evidence yet, therefore the vaccines we have now are still effective until we prove otherwise.

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              Anonymous

              Are you sure about that Lucinda?

              According to associate Porofessor the evidence your claiming does not exist, DOES exist.

              http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-need-to-change-say-researchers/story-e6frfku0-1225828831142

              If you want to vaccinate, I sincerly support your decision.

              But right now, I DEMAND my questions to be answered before I vaccinate my child.

              Surely you can respect that?

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              lucinda

              Are you seriously this ignorant or are just pretending to be?

              “Dr Lan said more research was needed to confirm the results but health authorities may need to modify the vaccine to broaden the protection it offered, “or over time it could lose effectiveness as the organism evolves”.

              News.com.au is not research evidence. It is saying there are scientists who believe the pertussis vaccination is not giving as much coverage as it did and they are now RESEARCHING. This does not mean there is no immunity benefit in the vaccination as it currently exists. Learn to read.

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              Anonymous

              Is that the best you can do?

              Mock, belittle and disrespect.

              Your saying there is “talk” of the disease mutating. Instead your deny the FACT that there is SOME evidence it is.

              Anyway. You do your business as usual and I will keep asking my questions and base my decision on all the facts that sit more comfortably with me.

              Again. The bullying may force some parents to vaccinate. But not me. i still want my answers before I do it.

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              lucinda

              Um, is that the best YOU can do? If anyone in here is a bully it is you. You sound like a cracked record frankly. Keep asking your questions and ignoring the answers. And keep putting yours and other peoples children at risk then. Well done.

              But the fact still remains that even if the scientists are correct, the current whooping cough vaccine still provides immunity for 3 out of 5 strains of pertussis. For a very minute risk. The unconfirmed research evidence you have brought up is just an excuse to maintain your appalling anti vax stance.

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              Anonymous

              Well. I guess it is the best you can do.

              So lets go back to your original comment shall we?

              You claim its the fault of the unvaccinated for the increasing rates of whooping cough. And I say, but there is also a major outbreak in the south west of sydney. the doctors and evryone here was talking about it. And we also have one of the highest rates of vaccinations. Then you suggest that there is only “talk” of the vaccine waining. Now you admit that there is thus far at least only 3 strains that may be protected.

              So why are we still blaming the unvaccinated, when you do not even know the figures of who got the illness and who did not?

              Is the illness spreading because we need a new vaccine or is it spreading because of low vaccination rates?

              Now how can you honestly answer that question with 1000% certainty. Not even a scientist can do that.
              Again, I will continue to ask my questions and will vaccinate once I get my answers.

              I am glad you have your answers.

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              lucinda

              Of course I can’t answer anything with 1000% certainty, because there is no 1000% – that is mathematically impossible. You ruin the credibility of your enquiry by making such pointless statements.

              But I can say that hygeine and standard of living have not improved much since many mass vaccinations were implemented in the last 30 or so years. There is very little difference. What we DO know is that some diseases have been virtually eradicated since the introduction of mass vaccination and the studies that carried out take many outside factors into consideration. Not to mention the years and years of research into developing the vaccines in the first place.

              This is a sample of study done on the effects of small pox vaccination in one community.

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC125076/pdf/pq1602010935.pdf

              Don’t understand it? Well it is pretty complicated stuff anonymous. That is why scientists go and get PhDs to study and research the field and we don’t. It does show a strong case for immunisation based on stringent data analysis. I have no idea why you think you know better than scientists who devote their life to it, when your best source of information is news.com.au. I do not know why you think the possibility of scientists needing to develop new vaccines for newer viral strains is a case against vaccinating. But go ahead and live in denial. I sincerely hope your children do not catch infectious diseases and get seriously ill.

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              Anonymous

              Lucinda. I have a science degree and doing honors soon. So, I do know enough. That referewnce I have was simply because Im not on my home copmputor to get into my stuff.

              Plus. I sincerly hope you never have to live with a vaccine injured child either.

              Thus both of us are risking something!

              But I myself is still considering my stance and looking at re evaluating my position on it. But thus far, nothing has shown me that causal relationship between the decline of illness and mass vaccination. And yes I am qualified in understanding this with three years of advanced statistics under my belt. Plus good enough grades for honors.

              Now, I am still open enough to take the information to my professor who will help my analysis, as I could be mistakem after all.

              Again. I hope your child never suffers from a vaccine injury..x

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              lucinda

              Anonymous, it concerns me greatly that someone considering an honours thesis in science engages with no scientific evidence here and responds with vague rebuttals that do not answer any of the questions that have been asked of you. It also concerns me that you would consider a thesis when your spelling is so bad that your comments are near undreadable. If you can’t edit your writing then you may as well give up the thesis now because you will fail. If you can’t cite your ideas and draw conclusions based on real, peer reviewed, evidence based data, then you will fail. You do not fool me. This discussion is finished.

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              Jane DJ

              Nothing you have written here is fooling anyone with even a smattering of scientific training that you are a science graduate considered for honours. Can see straight through your layman’s language.

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          Amandarose

          iAmandaroseI think anonymous has made some valid points she has a right to ask about.
          Why can’t there be discussion without such black and white polarity. She does have a good point about whooping cough. My entire family got it and we are all immunised so yes- the strain going about is oviously not one that responds to vaccine.

          Everyone has a right to ask questions and seek answers without ridicule especially when they make valid points.
          We all deserve honest information that is not slanted in either direction like the current debate is.

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            Kris2040

            But do you know if you have full immunity? Did that get tested when you got diagnosed?

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            Andy

            Once again, saying that vaccines don’t work because some vaccinated people get infected is like saying seat belts don’t work because some people die even though they were wearing one.

            You say you want a discussion without “black and white polarity” then immediately claim it’s “obvious” whooping cough strain has changed – based on your personal experience.

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        kateinlondon

        The problem with your ‘DEMANDS’ Anonymous, is that I cannot possibly imagine in what world that they would be satisfied. No matter what evidence and responses that medical and other authorities (and yes, I do mean authorities – as in properly qualified experts in the field of immunisation and public health) could give you (and you could refer back to Dr Rachael Dunlop’s article previously on this site for the appropriate references and links to hundreds if not thousands of peer-reviewed pieces) – you will not be satisfied.

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        lucinda

        I’m still waiting for the whooping cough stats in South West Sydney anonymous. I’m interested to know your sources that the outbreak is at epidemic proportions and that the vaccination rates are very high. I brought up Far North Queensland because I live there and it has been in the NATIONAL news – which I provided a link to. The immunisation rate in the Cairns area is still at about 90% but in pockets of more remote areas in particular, in decline. However the spread of the disease could be in part due to low immunity in adults spreading it (we need to get our boosters). I’m still interested in the stats for South West Sydney considering there has been no media coverage that I’ve seen.

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    still have questions.

    Mia. are you intending to create this hate campaign or is it by accident?

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      lucinda

      intendenting? I dont think Mia intendents anything…

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        Anonymous

        So it is by accident?

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          Andy

          Hate campaign? Looks more like an education campaign to me.

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    AmandaroseI

    The melodrama of some of the comments is really annoying. If your kids are immunised you don’t need to fear those that are not. If is rather mean discrimination really and It is not different then saying women in Burka’s not welcome or other such rubbish.

    I immunise my kids and I have no problem with them playing with all their unimunised kids.

    Australia still has good herd immunity and yes it would be great if more people immunised but such polar arguments and drama are really not going to improve things for anyone. people just dig in and argue without realising nothing is black and white. A bit more acceptance just might help provoke a discussion that helps people see the benefits of immunisation

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      Seahorse

      To say we need not fear those who are not immunized is very naive.

      What about my newborn who is not yet able to be immunized? What about my Gran who is immunosupressed? My friends todler whos cancer treatment leaves him exposed? They are all at risk of DEATH because of the naively of those who do not immunise.

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        Anonymous

        Yes. I get what you are saying. But if you want to fear them getting sick from anything at all, then keep them in a bubble and do not let them out of the house at all!!!!!!!!

        My child’s peadtrician told me that we have thousands of bugs laying doormant in our nostrils. Scary.

        Also, there are so many who have adverse reactions to vaccines and it has already been established that they are underported, and we know that many claim they have suffered but the doctors deny that they did suffer. So should they blame you for bullying them into vaccinating?

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        Amandarose

        If you read my comment I said if your immunised children Are fully immunised they are protected- otherwise you wouldn’t vaccinate them and the reality is death rates of preventable illnesses are still very low so to point being a drama queen about it. You nan is more likely to catch the flu of you then worry about a disease such as whooping cough. If she is so ill naturally everyone would take precautions as the chance of catching an every day bug like the flu is more of a worry then measles.
        The thinking behind the hysteria is flawed and does not help reduce illness- rather just alienates people who really think they are doing the right thing how ever misguided. People willing to be ridiculed for their decisions usually are caring mothers with alot of integrity and love.

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      kateinlondon

      Amandarose – it is SO different from talking about women in Burkas. Those women pose no risk to other people.

      And yes, Australia does have good herd immunity, but what if the anti-vacc camp grows? We have already seen the implications in areas where immunisation rates have dropped – in Australia, and around the world. The logical outcome of not immunising, is that no-one immunises (unless the anti-vaccers think it is is just THEIR children who are special and should not get vaccinated) – do you really think a country where no-one vaccinates is a good thing? If not, then why on earth should anyone stop having this debate? It is the final outcome that I can never understand.

      The debate is vital, and I commend all the people far more passionate and knowledgeable than me for continuing to fight it on all fronts.

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        Andy

        While the national vaccination average might be high, it’s pathetically low not far from where I live. So for kids in this region, the national average is meaningless and this discussion is important.

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    Rosie

    Thank you, Rick and Mia, for keeping the debate going about this hugely important issue. The anti-vaxxers haven’t stopped talking about it (secret seminars!), so neither should we.

    As a final year student doctor with a strong interest in paediatrics, I can say that one of the very worst experiences of my career thus far has been watching a baby too young for vaccination, sick with pertussis, coughing and coughing until he was almost too exhausted to breathe and being utterly powerless to do anything to help him. Fortunately, he survived. Sadly, so many other children arent so lucky. I can’t even begin to imagine what it must have been like for his parents. This is why vaccination matters.

    Looking ahead to my future practice, I would hate to have to turn away any child because of the actions of their parents. While we no longer take the Hippocratic Oath (it forbids surgery, among other things), it would still go against all my beliefs not to help someone when I was able to. However, in the case of those who do not vaccinate their children for belief-related reasons, I have to admit that I would be sorely tempted.

    Medicine is, I have learned, an area in which it is almost impossible to be 100% certain of anything. But one thing is for sure – your doctor did not spend ten or more years training so that they could give you incompetent advice, or because they don’t really care, or because of the money (which isn’t always as much as you might think). If you have questions, make an appointment and ask them. You will need to make the time, because goodness knows time is one thing we never have enough of, but doctors are there to help. No, really. Why else would we put up with the hours, the sleep deprivation, the caffeine addiction, the ridiculous exams?

    …and now I’m going to stop typing, because my id is showing. Probably because I’ve been on my feet on the wards all day, and there wasn’t enough time to stop for coffee. I hope this made some kind of coherent sense. If not, my apologies.

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      Anonymous

      Secret seminars?

      So how must you know about them if they are secret?

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        Rosie

        I was referring to the seminars discussed in the comments below, being held in Queensland. The location of the seminar is apparently sent out by SMS the night before, which certainly seems fairly secretive to me.

        Either way, though, the anti-vaccination lobby is still discussing these issues, which is why it is important for the pro-vaccination people to keep talking too.

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          Anonymous

          I agree that we should all be talking and seeking to improve. BOTH sides.

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    Anon for this

    Although I am pro-vax, so many people are overwhelmingly (and sometimes very nasty) in their assessment of those who don’t vaccinate (isn’t it better to communicate and explain than ridicule and drive people away further?). For example, I wonder how many of those who are SO pro-vax also circumcise their boys?
    The reason I ask is because The New England Journal of Medicine (yes, peer reviewed and very reputable) released a study which shows that circumcision reduces the transmission of STDs including herpes, HPV and HIV significantly (herpes being a virus that causes blindness and sometimes death in newborn babies catching it from their mother and HPV causing cervical cancer). 1 in 8 adults in Australia have herpes and 4 out of 5 people will be exposed to HPV in their lifetime.
    It has been suggested that routine circumcision of boys should be reintroduced to cut the rate of STDs, which at this point in time is endemic in Australia.
    I wonder if vaccinating mothers would be as quick to jump down other people’s throats if I said I looked down my nose at those in a first world country who are doing very little to proactively decrease the chance of their boys spreading disease, not just when they’re children, but as sexually active males for the rest of their lives?
    This question is more directed at the extent to which people will go to in the prevention of communicable disease. If you baulk at the circumcision because you don’t agree with it, maybe you may understand that some people’s lines in the sand are just different to yours?

    http://www.stvincents.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=469&Itemid=516

    Australian doctor urges circumcision to ward off HIV
    Sep 19, 2010, 8:09 GMT
    Sydney – Routinely circumcising baby boys is an effective way of fighting the spread of the AIDS virus among heterosexuals, an Australian Doctor said Sunday.
    Alex Wodak, writing in The Medical Journal of Australia, described the removal of the foreskin as a ‘surgical vaccine’ against HIV/AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases.
    Wodak, from Sydney’s St Vincent’s Hospital, said doctors were wrong to discourage circumcision and urged the health department to subsidise the operation.
    Queensland is alone among the six states in providing a rebate for parents who pay for circumcision for male babies.
    ‘A wealth of research has shown that the foreskin is the entry point that allows HIV to infect men during intercourse with an infected female partner,’ he said.
    ‘Circumcision of males is now referred to by many as surgical vaccine against a wide variety of infections and adverse medical conditions over the lifetime.’
    Wodak said that, with no likelihood of an HIV vaccine in the next 20 years, authorities should be active in removing the stigma from male circumcision.
    ‘If we’re trying to prevent an epidemic in the 2030s, we should start thinking about this in the 2010s,’ he said.
    Less than 20 per cent of Australian boys are circumcised, a proportion that has risen from 13 per cent in the last decade.

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      kateinlondon

      I agree that the debate (from both camps) can get nasty and sometimes childish. Sometimes I can understand why – it must be mentally exhausting to fight the anti-vax battle which generally consists of ridiculous, illogical and generally widely debunked reasoning. Anti-vaccination is not a ‘line in the sand’ – it is wrong and endangers not only your own children but other people in your community.

      In your circumcision example, I think probably the difference is, that those in the pro-vax camp would generally be open to well thought out, medically recognised, federally led school of thought.

      Anti-vaxxers won’t listen to anyone or anything, despite an overwhelming body of evidence.

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        Anon for this

        For me I guess it was a line in the sand – I was more willing to circumcise to prevent infection & STDs than I was to vaccinate initially – I think it has to do with the mode of delivery of vaccinations rather than the actual disease itself. I simply don’t like the idea of injecting something straight into the blood that is usually transmitted another way. But I know vaccination is important which is why I grit my teeth and trusted my doctor. I’m really looking forward to the research that UQ is doing though in trans-dermal vaccinations through nanoparticles instead of vaccinations directly into the bloodstream.

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          Kris2040

          Jabs aren’t intravenous though – they go into muscle or are swallowed.

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            Anon for this

            Yes, but it’s still a different delivery system to the way the virus is naturally transmitted – which does have a bearing on the outcome. There was a great story on ABC radio that I can’t find online with the researchers from UQ explaining why their studies were so important and why changing the method of delivery would change the way the virus worked in the system. I’m not a scientist but these are the type of people (Drs/PHDs) that I’m supposed to be trusting right?

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              Shannon

              “The Nanopatch has thousands of small projections designed to deliver the vaccine to abundant immune cells in the skin, whereas the traditional syringe hits the muscle where there are few immune cells. ”

              http://www.uq.edu.au/news/index.html?article=23610

              However, I couldn’t find any reference to it changing the way the virus worked in the system – I also read a couple of the articles about the nanopatch experiments in the journal ‘Small’ and couldn’t find any reference to the NPs changing the way the virus worked in the system, only that the NP would change how efficient and effective vaccinations themselves would be.

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              Shannon

              Whoops, can’t edit my comment. But could you have been thinking of this interview?

              http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2880054.htm

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            Anonymous

            Jabs are intramusculer which still bypasses the gastrointestinal tract. It is still going straight into our systems.

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              Kris2040

              Which vaccine preventable diseases are contracted through the GI tract?
              And why hasn’t anyone I know, adults, kids or babies had an adverse reaction to this “unnatural” way of getting immunity?

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              lucindainthesky

              Research is always ongoing, and perhaps research will find a way to produce stronger immunity through a different mode of delivery, but the fact still remains that some, or moderate immunity is better than none. And until they come up with something better, we should all be doing the responsible thing and vaccinating our children to keep them at lesser risk of infectious diseases. I’m not sure than injecting your GI or respiratory tract with a disease to create immunity would be very safe. They have to administer it away from major organs for obvious reasons.

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              Anonymous

              No your not getting it.

              According to FDA government documents, the gastroinestrinal tract helps detox toxins we absorb from our environment. Therefore, when we catch illness, that is what helps us detox and cleans it out. Thus, the FDA have argued that we must limit the amount of aluminium injected into newborns because it bypasses the protective factors of the gastrointestinal tract.

              Vaccines do contain up tp to 1500mcrg of aluminium. And the nature of its delivery is BYPASSING the gastrointenstinal tract.

              You will find this information on AskDr sears site.

              And to answer your second question. I ask you this. How many children do you personally know? 100, 200, 300, 400…..10000?

              We say a serious reaction is 1 in 1 million.

              Correct?

              How many on here in the past have you seen say they had a reaction? Maybe 20-30 40?

              Ive been following and reading Mias blog for a while and I would suggest that maybe 50?

              So, how many people would have read her vaccine articles and responded? 1000-2000-4000?

              If are is 1 in 1million, than that is not so rare is it?

              In my personal experience, I have met at least 5 people out of maybe 100 babies I would personally know.

              Not so rare to me.

              In fact, I would say I know that many people who have caught whooping cough too. All vaccinated by the way.

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              Faybian

              Rotateq is administered orally and absorbed through the GI tract, as the virus affects that tract. In some countries polio virus is still given orally.

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        Mel

        There is an alternative, men can use condoms to reduce the transmission of sTDs. If they would prefer to be circumcised then they can choose to do so. It’s harder to choose the alternative to vaccination being social isolation to keep safe.

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      kateincottesloe

      Yup. All my boys circumcised, all my kids vaccinated. I’s dotted, t’s crossed. It’s about taking responsibility.

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      Faybian

      Ive read some studies, one such one that a local doctor specializing in circumcisions and tongue tie snips wrote. It does make you think. We didn’t circumcise our son, but taught him a cleaning routine. There is a very “passionate” movement that feels it is genital mutilation. I think it’s one to watch out for.

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        Anon for this

        Exactly Faybian – as ‘passionate’ as the anti-vaccs people. Most people assume that circumcision is still made through a surgical cut to the penis which it’s not – most circumcisions now involve the bell method which I found to be fine. I guess my point was that everyone has a limit to what they will do to protect others and for some parents they draw the line at vaccinations. If I had daughters (only boys so far) I’d want them to be 40% more protected from disease – a figure similar to vaccination but I can’t force people to circumcise their boys!

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          Faybian

          Well I’ve had both boy and girls. I partly made my decision because I’ve been the one to hold baby boys down while they’ve had the plastibell circumcision. They don’t like it,at all. As a nurse, I’ve seen a couple of young men with phimosis, caused usually by poor hygiene and the adult circumcisions that go with it. I’ve also seen zipper accidents in young men. As a result of all this, I’m happy with the decision we made for our son. He’s not the cleanest person I know and so far so good.

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    Amandarose

    I don’t think that move will help increase vaccination rates- rather just alienate people who already have lost faith in conventional medicine. Much better for families to have a relationship of trust and respect so they may eventually trust you enought to listen.

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      Kris2040

      But doesn’t that trust and respect have to go both ways? They bang on about their rights, but don’t recognise that with rights come responsibilities.

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        Anonymous

        Kris you seem to think you know it all!

        A study found that most vaccine reactions are not reported. MOST.

        So Lets just say that study is correct ( I am assuming it is).- Than why are you not repsonsible for bullying parents into vaccinating their children when they could be hurt?

        Seriously. You do not have to live with that do you.

        But I guess you will simply respond with the usual rant of- “but they risk everyone else”. Well, have you thought that your bullying is putting other children at risk?

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          Kris2040

          How do you get bullying others from a question about trust, rights and responsibility? *scratches head then shrugs at ill-conceived strawman*

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            Anonymous

            Well, your happy to argue it is the responsiblity of the non vaxxers to vax for everyone else.

            Correct?

            But I am guessing that you will not take any responsibility at all for bullying parents to vaccinate who end up with an adverse reactions?

            Ironic.

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              Kris2040

              Actually I argue that it’s everyone who CAN get immunised’s responsibility to get immunised to keep those who CAN’T get immunised safe from the vaccine preventable diseases they’re at risk for.
              There’s a vast difference between CAN’T and WON’T. Especially when the WON’T is based on lies and silly made up stories.

              If I’m the one doing the “bullying” and putting my name to it *cough, Anonymous*, how is that not taking responsibility for what I say? Not once have I (or anyone on the pro-vax side) said that 100% of vaccines are safe for 100% of people 100% of the time. I have asked how come I’ve never come across anyone who has a “vaccine injury”. I’ve said that I was made aware of the possible side effects and reactions every time I have had jabs myself or taken my daughter. Where’s the bullying there?

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              Anonymous

              @Kris. Asking questions and debating with respect and dignity for those who have a differewnt opinion is perfectly fine. But I ahve found you to mock, belittle and name call those who do not. I guess when i whole group of people do it, the we call that behvaior bullying!

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              Kris2040

              Show some examples of that. I stand by whatever I’ve said.

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            no name

            I also think you are a bully, not just on this topic. You should name yourself “I KNOW IT ALL”.

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              Shannon

              I’ve always seen Kris as someone who simply doesn’t sugarcoat her opinions, rather than a bully. Her questions and statements are pointed, certainly, but she has always struck me as someone who is open to contradiction provided it is backed up with persuasive, evidence-based argument.

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              Kris2040

              Disagreeing, asking questions and arguing points isn’t bullying. It’s disagreeing, asking questions and arguing.

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              Faybian

              That was a really rude comment no name. I was actually glad to see Kris starting to comment here…..

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          kateinlondon

          ‘a study’? Intriguing.

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    caramel80

    This is the way I look at it – I want to live and I don’t want to be in pain.

    I experienced measles when I was 7 and whopping cough when I was 12. I was immunised throughout my life – my mother is pro-immo.

    I do not like the thought of young children experiencing painful diseases that can be preventable.

    Perhaps there should be some legal ruling in place that until a child is 18yrs old that they are fully immunised and after that it is their choice to do what they wish …. although I don’t see that happening ever in my lifetime!

    wish there was a cure for lice!

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    Tired

    At 10 weeks pregnant, I *loved* getting a call from a mother of an unvaccinated child that I had contact with the weekend before to say that the child had German Measles.
    Thanks to my vaccinations I was immune and did not have to consider terminating my baby which I had spent almost 3 years trying to conceive!

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      Jules

      My eldest daughter contracted rubella when she was 11 months old. She was literally weeks away from having her immunisation. I was in a similar situation and felt horrible. There was nothing I could have done to prevent it. This is why it is so important to have your immunity checked before conceiving.

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    essessesse

    It’s nice to see we have a new broken record poster on this one. So prolific as well.

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    kenwood

    For everyone saying, “I can’t understand the mindset of antivaxers – why would someone NOT want to protect their children”…

    I think this article offers the best summary of how antivaxers think that I have seen to date:

    http://weareskeptixx.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-appeal-of-vaccine-rejectionism-it-flatters-the-ignorant/

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    Anonymous

    Please, please, please (unless there is compelling cause not to), please get vaccinated.
    My husband contracted a disease he hadn’t been vaccinated for.
    He now believes in vaccination.
    Travellers, research your vaccination needs also. I’m so glad I did.

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    Storm

    I think it’s a good idea!!! I don’t get why some people choose not to vaccinate- you don’t see parents in third world countries worrying about potential side effects when they’re offered free vaccinations for their children as part of an aid program! I understand parents not vaccinating for some vaccines in the case of anaphylactic (spelling?) reactions, thats a different matter.

    I’m epileptic, and I hate needles (not a good combo) and a few i’ve fainted when getting vaccinated which then brought on a seizure. They were just small seizures, nothing serious, but i’m glad my mum continued to vaccinate me despite me having them- a minute or two of a seizure, in exchange for immunity against a life-threatening disease :)

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    Bec

    Sounds like the best idea I have heard all decade, well century even!
    I work in childcare and it does my head in that I have done the right thing as a parent and gotten my children fully immunised, yet I am caring for children who aren’t immunised, therefore their idiotic brain dead parents are putting everyone ese around them at risk

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    tweety

    I am currently pregnant with my first child and am a teacher so am vaccinated for everything possible and will be getting our child vaccinated. I have also asked my immediate family to get boosters before they visit me with my newborn as whooping cough is rife on the Sunshine Coast due to lower rates of vaccinations. I would support a doctor that refused to treat patients that weren’t vaccinated – will definitely ask next time I go.

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    redballoon

    I wish to share the title of a fabulous book I read recently. It changed the way I think about the anti-vaccine movement. I used to think they were misguided, now I feel that the movement verges on evil. (Which makes me sound a bit mad myself, I know!)

    Deadly choices: how the anti-vaccine movement threatens us all / Paul A. Offit

    Amazingly easy to read, has it’s basis in great science, I can’t recommend it highly enough!
    For those interested in some very simple ways to argue the point with anti-vaxers, give it a go!

    Next I’m reading:
    The panic virus: fear, myth and the vaccination debate by Mnookin.

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      Lisa66

      Thanks for that. I’m going to see if I can get it from the library tomorrow.

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        Kris2040

        You can get them both on Kindle, Lisa66.

        Redballoon – we are reading Deadly Choices for an online mothers’ group I’m in and The Panic Virus next!

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          redballoon

          Uncanny!
          Great minds and all that…

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        redballoon

        I’m getting them from my library!

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      Cranky Pants

      Paul Offit is a very rich shill for Big Pharma.

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        Kris2040

        LOL!

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        JosieY

        I didn’t mean to thumbs up this comment! I was aiming for Kris2040!

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          Cranky Pants

          Thanks anyway.

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          trixie melodian

          Oh, I ‘liked’ crankypants’ comment because I thought it was a joke!

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      Anonymous

      Paul Offit makes millions from the vaccine he created.

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        Kris2040

        How much do the “doctors” Mercola and Tenpenny make from their snake oil hysteria inducing lie telling businesses?

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          Anonymous

          Im not sure. But I m pretty sure no where near as much as Mr Offit!

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            Kris2040

            How do you know how much Paul Offit makes?

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            Jane DJ

            Mercola makes enough to throw a million dollars at a US anti-vax organisation to fund a TImes Square anti-vax advertisement.

            “Mercola says he recently donated $1 million to several alternative medicine groups, including the National Vaccine Information Center, which describes itself as a “vaccine watch dog.” Part of the money, according to the group’s website, was used to pay for an ad called “Vaccines: Know the Risk,” which was shown hourly on the CBS Jumbotron in Times Square for several weeks last spring. ”

            http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/joe_mercola_proof_positive_that_quackery.php

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    Mich

    A good friend who was a conscientious objector told me quite conspiratorally that she (and another mum with unvaccinated kids) would regularly lie when presenting at hospital emergency or wherever, so they wouldn’t get turned away. I couldn’t believe the flippant way she disregarded the safety of others like that, just to ensure her child would be treated (funny how modern medicine is okay in some respects, just not others..).

    Anyway, needless to say when my babies arrived I made it a point to avoid bringing our kids together. We’re still FB friends but I wonder if she thinks it odd that two mums living about 20 mins apart, who used to be firm friends, never seem to catch up. If she ever asks, I’ll tell her.

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      Georgina

      Mich, an Australian emergency dept cannot refuse to treat anyone (unless they are abusive).

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      The Original Steph

      It is quite disgraceful, isnt it? I have also (in a conspiratorial way) been told “oh, I told the doctor we dont vax, all you have to do is sit through a lecture, and you get the money anyway.” (Referring to the immunisation allowance that was previously given, regardless of vax status). Then, a chortle, chortle, hahahaha, “aren’t I clever?” face.
      I also would not let my newborn near anyone who wasnt vaccinated, particularly for whooping cough. He basically lived in a bubble for 6 months. Given that my previous baby was stillborn, I wasnt about to expose my new baby to any diseases.

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      the Original Camille

      funny how modern medicine is okay in some respects, just not others.
      YES!!!!!!!

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      Anonymous

      I would not get offended if people wanted me away from their children until they are fully vaccinated. Its never happened, but I would feel ok and not loose a friendship over it. But the reason its never happened is ebacuse if my child has so much as a sniffle, they do not go near anychild. I just feel better that way.

      But, if your going to be a complete hypocrite and say your child cant be near mine after they are fully immunised, than your not my kind fo friend anyway!

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    Kimberley

    I think there are a FEW reasons it would be ok to not vax your child. My niece couldn’t have one of hers (i think it was the chicken pox one but dont quote me) because it contains albumen and she has anaphalaxsys (pardon spelling) from egg and nut.
    That being said, She has had all the others she can have.

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      Rick Morton

      I don’t think anyone has issues with legitimate cases like these! They just make it all the more important for everyone *else* who can vax to do it and sprout misinformation that it drives parents stuck in the middle to not vax their kids on a whim.

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        archie

        Exactly! I’m happy to provide herd immunity to people who physically can’t be vaccinated, but I wish I could withdraw it from the “consciencious” objectors.

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    SH

    My 3 month old niece caught whooping cough from someone who was unvaccinated – she spent nearly a week in the childrens hospital on oxygen. I have quickly shifted from ….everyone has the right to make their own decisions to…. step away from my children.

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      vivacious

      I don’t have kids but lots of my friends have little ones – which is why I’m getting the whooping cough vaccine next time I’m at the doctor. I couldn’t live with myself if I passed it on to one of their precious babies and in adults it can be just like a normal cold.

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        Anonymous

        That’s so very thoughtful of you!!!! You’re a good friend!!!

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      Kelly Slater

      That’s awful, SH! I’m so sorry to hear that you went through that. I hope your Bub is OK now.

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    Phoodietweets

    What a coincidence that this story is running as I just had this convo w my doc recently! I live in Sydney and went to my GP a couple of weeks ago to immunise my 4 month old son. I asked my GP out of curiosity if she had any anti vax patients and she said that unless there are Medically legit reasons (I.e the child is allergic etc, you know what I mean) that the parents aren’t vaxing their kids, then she refuses them as patients as she says she will not put her other patients at risk. I was glad to hear this!

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    redqueen

    Why are people still listening to that crackpot theory about vaccination???
    I caught whooping cough last year and it was utter hell. I’ve had it with selfish people infecting the rest of us, GET YOUR KIDS VACCINATED!!!!!

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      Plain Jaine

      You weren’t vaccinated?

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        TRIxie melodian

        Vaccination is not a magic bubble. To make a very overused but startlingly obvious comparison, if you are in a car accident and you die, despite wearing a seatbelt, do we conclude that seatbelts are unsafe? (I am just waiting for Meryl Dorey to start a scare campaign against seat belts and Big Seat Belt Manufacturers solely to stop this analogy being used. After all, if she doesn’t care about kids dying of whooping cough, why should we think she gives a toss about kids dying in car accidents?)

        It’s not that hard to work out, Jaine – 20% of vaxxed people who are exposed to whooping cough get the disease. That means that 80% are protected.

        0% of vaxxed OR unvaxxed people that are AREN’T exposed to whooping cough get the disease. Therefore, if the disease isn’t floating around a community, then everybody is safe.

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          Plain Jaine

          Vaccination is not a magic bubble. Well put.

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            Rick Morton

            And not being vaccinated is not even a bubble. I know which one I’ll be choosing.

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              plain Jaine

              Make sure you get a top up!

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        vivacious

        You need a top up for whooping cough. It is why (I think but don’t quote me) new parents and grandparents can get the vaccine either free or subsidised.

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          Plain Jaine

          You need a top up of all vaccines after 5 years because not even the manufacturer knows how long vaccine-induced immunity will last.

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            trixie melodian

            Disease-induced immunity lasts only a couple of years longer than vaccine-induced immunity. And you have to suffer through the disease.

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              Cranky Pants

              Wrong. Contracting measles, mumps, rubella chickenpox, and pertussis naturally (not through vaccination) confers life-long immunity.

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              trixie melodian

              Despite decades of high vaccination coverage, pertussis has remained endemic and reemerged as a public health problem in many countries in the past 2 decades. Waning of vaccine-induced immunity has been cited as one of the reasons for the observed epidemiologic trend. A review of the published data on duration of immunity reveals estimates that *infection-acquired immunity against pertussis disease wanes after 4-20 years and protective immunity after vaccination wanes after 4-12 years.* Further research into the rate of waning of vaccine-acquired immunity will help determine the optimal timing and frequency of booster immunizations and their role in pertussis control.

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15876927

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            Anonymous

            All vaccines? I don’t think that’s true.

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              essessesse

              I had whooping cough when I was very small and I had it again about 6 years ago. I was incredibly ill. I was vaccinated 2 years ago. I’m not sure if I’m just a miracle case (in fact I doubt it very much) but I’m pretty sure having pertussis doesn’t give you immunity.

              MMR & varicella do, though. Don’t forget if you’ve had chickenpox as a child you can still get shingles. This means an unvaccinated person can catch chickenpox from you.

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              Anonymous

              Yeah I know. I was meaning that not all vaccinations need boosters every 5 years

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          Kelly Slater

          Hi Vivacious! You are right, new parents and grandparents are entitled to the whooping cough vaccine for free from any GP. (I just had The Jab after having a baby girl last week)

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        QueenB

        The whooping cough vaccine only lasts approx 7-10 years. That’s why it is recommended that adults, who are in contact with young children, get a booster shot.

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        redqueen

        Yes I was, but it’s only recently been discovered tat immunity isn’t life long for the pertussis vaccine, you need a booster.

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      Lu

      I think adults need a whooping cough booster

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    Laura

    My partner and I, along with our siblings, have all had reactions to the whooping cough vaccinations as infants, culminating in a series of fits with the risk of brain damage.

    Our children will be not be vaccinated against whooping cough. I hope our doctor is understanding of our decision.

    That said, I will be immunising my children for all other diseases and I beg parents of children who do not have a predisposition for a reaction against the vaccine to vaccinate their children, because mine will be particularly vulnerable. My younger brother contracted whooping cough a few years ago at the age of 14 and it was awful. It lasted 6 months (undiagnosed for 4 of those) and he vomited almost everything he ate as a result of coughing fits that kept him awake each night. He was as thin as a rake.

    So my point is:

    Vaccination is absolutely necessary.

    Reactions DO exist. Parents do not make them up and they should not be ostracised for wanting the best for their children.

    However, those reactions are very rare. Parents who choose not to immunise their children on the ever-so-slight chance that they will have a reaction (without any evidence or family history to back up that fear) are being irresponsible.

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      Tartan skirt

      Out of curiosity, what did your doctor say about the reaction you had as an infant and the impact that has on your decision making? I would have thought the vaccine has changed (improved?) since you were infants.

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        Plain Jaine

        What was wrong with it before?

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        trixie melodian

        The current vaccine is acellular vs the older whole cell vaccines that you probably received as a kid. The newer vaccines have a much lower rate of reactions, so it is probably worth consulting with your doctor who will have a much better understanding of potential side-effects.

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          Plain Jaine

          Ask him or her for the product disclosure information provided by the manufacturer. That’s where the accurate information will be.

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            Faybian

            Ive said it before and I’ll say it again. If we read the product disclosure information on all the side effects for even paracetamol, then we wouldn’t take anything. Absolutely every potential side effect is put down there in a very dry academic style, so the GP/clinic would have a far more appropriate hand out.

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              Plain Jaine

              If you refuse to read what the manufacturer says about its own product, you will not be able to make a truly informed decision. Of course, this is your right.

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              Faybian

              Hey, read away. I don’t care. I don’t know how much the average person will understand of the inserts anyway.i can read medical jargon and I still have to concentrate hard when I do read them. That is why I said the handout from the clinic or GP is more appropriate. They do outline the major risks, but in a easy to understand format.

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              essessesse

              I see this is turning out as well as the last one…..

              Read the manufacturers insert by all means. Most people will not be able to understand the bulk of the information without some sort of medical translation, so they head to the internet and before you know it, they’ve diagnosed themselves with a wonderful new disease.

              People who don’t vaccinate are idiots. I am of course excluding those with valid medical reasons from this statement.

              Doctors who refuse to take this patients on are doing the right thing. If people can’t be arsed to avail themselves of protection from a variety of communicable diseases by the administration of a few injections then they’re dumb arses.

              Yes, I thought it was eloquent and well reasoned too.

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            trixie melodian

            Jaine, do you download the aeroplane schematics and spend hours googling theories of aerodynamics and arguing Newton’s Laws of Motion on online forums before you fly?

            Or do you understand that the pilot who has been put in charge of your plane has the training, skills and background to do his job far better than you ever could?

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              Plain Jaine

              What are you trying to say? It appears you think that no one should be able to read the package insert for the drugs they take unless they are a doctor. Surely not.

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              trixie melodian

              What a silly, irrelevant straw man argument. Of course I’m not suggesting that. And I notice that you avoided my question too.

              There’s that saying, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Reading a package insert (or doing Google research) without the relevant knowledge and understanding is probably more unhelpful than not reading it at all.

              Patients are better off talking to a trusted medical professional (and no, naturopaths and chiropractors are not medical professionals) who can explain the ingredients and possible side effects clearly.

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              Plain Jaine

              In reply to your question: No, I don’t need to download that information because I am the pilot.

              You are correct. A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. That is why a forum like this one is just the place to go for unbiased, up to date, accurate information.

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              trixie melodian

              Plain Jaine – so you are a fully qualified doctor, immunologist or epidemiologist? I think not…

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    vanessayoung

    Was surprised to note that the queen of anti vaxxers, Jenny McCarthy is quite content to inject ‘poison’ into her own body, according to a previous article of Zoe Foster’s about botox.
    All this talk about vaccinations is based on so many misconceptions.
    Your child may still get a mild dose of whooping cough, measles ,
    chickenpox but will escape the complications and/or death associated with those complications.
    Your child will not become autistic as a result of these vaccinations. The signs of autism appear about the time of the MMR vaccination but the two are not linked.
    Doctors, pharmaceutical researchers, public health officials are people and parents just like you. They are not involved in a secret government or big business conspiracy to hurt your child.

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    amyintheworld

    As long as doctors are only turning away people who don’t vaccinate because they choose not to, as opposed to those who actually cannot be vaccinated, I don’t think I have a problem with it. Doctors have a duty of care to ALL their patients, and those who don’t vaccinate are risking the health of everyone else.

    And please, PLEASE…. for those of you who are questioning why kids still get sick when they are vaccianted, I beg you to ask your own gp more about how vaccines work. They aren’t fool proof, but as people have said time and time again, they work more often than not. Look at smallpox – a disease that is now extinct. Look at polio, no longer in Australia at all. Whilst yes, better sewerage etc has helped, the thing that got rid of these awful diseases is vaccinations.

    Also, those that are saying that they’ve only ever heard of kids getting whooping cough who’ve been vaccinated, please look up the story of Dana Coffrey. She was unvaccinated (as she was too young) and contracted whooping cough and died. Three other babies in the area her parents live also died within the same month. Her father is a primary school teacher (their area has one of the lowest vaccine rates in NSW) and he told how there was an outbreak in his school where no fewer than 5 kids had whooping cough. That isn’t a coincidence.

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      Anonymous

      The thing that got rid of the diseases is better hygiene, healthier living and better access to clean water and clean food.Times have changed in Australia since back then.

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        Lulu

        In the early 1950s, the US had outbreaks of 58000 (1952) & 30000 (1952) cases of polio. Following mass vaccinations, it was effectively eradicated from the country by the late 1970s. I don’t think that would be explained by the hygiene, water, food etc improvements in less than 30 years.

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        Andy

        Evidence?

        And can you explain why VPDs are disappearing in third world countries where vaccinations are on the increase while living conditions are barely improving?

        And what about the demonstrable benefits of the Hib vaccine that was introduced well after we became “clean”?

        Magic?

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          trixie melodian

          *yawn* the “vaccines didn’t save us, hygiene did” canard has been disproven so many times it’s hardly worth responding, but I will do so in case there is anyone reading this who may not realise what a load of tripe you are serving up:

          DEATH rates from vaccine-preventable diseases (VPDs) were decreasing before vaccines were introduced. Polio death rates decreased dramatically due to the invention of the iron lung and improved medical treatment increased the survival rates of many VPDs. In addition, improved standard of living and smaller family size reduced transmission of disease. No-one is disputing this.

          However the reduced incidence of the disease (and the diseases’ associated illness, suffering, disability eg paralysis, lung problems, brain damage) has been almost solely due to vaccines.

          Why else does incidence of a disease increase in areas with lower vaccination rates (eg whooping cough in Northern Rivers NSW – and no, we can’t just blame it all on dirty Bangalow hippies ; )) and how else do you explain that in countries who stop vaccinating (eg Japan) incidence rates shoot up, then fall again when they reintroduce the vaccine?

          And why is it that HIB incidence has fallen from around 500 cases per year (including 10-15 deaths) in the early 1990s to less than 20 annual cases being reported today? I know I’m certainly not enjoying a dramatically different standard of living or medical care than I was as a teenager. Hygiene hasn’t changed much since the 90s, so what has changed? Oh yes, that’s right, a HIB vaccine was introduced as part of the childhood vaccination schedule.

          I’m sure those hundreds of kids who are alive today because they have had access to the vaccine will really appreciate your tedious efforts to hang on to the “vaccines didn’t save us, hygiene did” gambit.

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        amyintheworld

        Anonymous, if it’s true that better hygeine and healthier living as well as clean water and food eradicated these diseases, could you please explain to me why India, a country deemed a third world nation, which has extreme poverty, poor sanitation and low levels of clean water and food, but which has been under strict vaccination programmes, how just celebrated 12 months without a single new case of polio? Just 2 years ago there were 700 new cases of polio recorded, and the disease was considered endemic in India. If this continues for 2 more years, India will be officially labelled as polio-free. This is wonderful, wonderful news, especially for a nation with such poor sanitation. No one argues against the fact that clean water and better hygeine does wonders for health – however, they cannot eradicate these diseases. Vaccines can, and India is a very real and very current example of this.

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    catgirl

    I can go along with that..

    If you are not willing to do your best to safeguard your children’s health by havfing them vacinated why the hell sould Doctors give you the time of day.

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      Plain Jaine

      Because they took an oath.

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        amyintheworld

        And they are upholding that oath by protecting all their patients, not just one patient who is risking the health of others.

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    ladybug

    I feel quite strongly about this. While parents have every right not to vaccinate their child, this does not give them the right to help propogate preventable diseases that are deadly throughout society, particularly to children too young to be vaccinated or to the sick and weak. Don’t vaccinate, that’s fine, but don’t send your kids to school, day care or sit in the waiting room while my children are waiting for help. That said, doctors can’t turn away sick children……it isn’t their fault if they are not vaccinated.

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      Plain Jaine

      Why are you afraid of unvaccinated children?

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        trixie melodian

        @Jaine – because they have a vastly increased potential to be a death sentence to my baby.

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          Plain Jaine

          Your baby has a greater chance of dying in a car accident then from the pertussis virus.

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            trixie melodian

            Which is why I am as critical and scathing about idiots who speed and drunk drivers as I am about antivaxxers. Wow, you made that too easy.

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              plain Jaine

              But you can’t avoid them all!

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            Mia

            Like that makes it ok?Tell that to parents who’ ve watched their babies die.

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              Plain Jaine

              Like that makes what okay?

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              Curious

              What about the parents whose children have died as a result of a vaccine?

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              Plain Jaine

              They are considered “acceptable losses” by the vaccine industry and its lapdog, your government.

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              trevor

              No one suggests that “acceptable losses” occur as a result of vaccination. It is a foul accusation vomited out at pro vaxxers by those who are calous enough to reach that low to accuse people rather than deal with science. Pro vaxxers strongly believe in improving safety profiles from extremely safe to absolutely safe.

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              trixie melodian

              I think if any group has an “acceptable level of death” then its the antivax community who are willing to let thousands of babies die to further their profits (at the expense of scared and misinformed parents) from naturopathic and homeopathic “treatments”, memberships, donations and quack remedies.

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              David

              Hi Plain Jane, You raise an interesting point about vaccine induced fatalities. I would just like to ask the following questions please. If we take measles and the vaccination against it (MMR) could you please tell me how many people have died of MMR vs the number of people who have died of measles. I am happy to accept any mortality data from any government source or peer reviewed scientific journal. If it helps, approximately 160,000 people (mostly children) died of measles in 2008.

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            Marty

            You just demonstrated a terrible level of ignorance of the prevalence of pertussis, especially in an outbreak. For the record, with the safety gear mandated for cars today, a properly secured baby has a better chance of surviving a car accident than a too-young-to-be-vaccinated baby has of surviving a pertussis infection.

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            David

            Pertussis is not a virus. I am glad you have done all that research.

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              amyintheworld

              @Curious I can’t reply to your comment…

              I don’t think you were having a go, but in reference to your questions ‘what about the parents of those who have died from a vaccine’, I have to ask you – could you please provide me with one, just ONE example where a child has died, and it has been proven to be as a direct result of the vaccine? I am not (nor are any pro vaccinaters) saying that there are not reactions to vaccines, some of them dangerous. I am also not denying that some people can’t be vaccinated because they have a family or personal history of reacting badly to vaccines. However, I have never ever heard of someone that has died as a result of getting a vaccine. Unless of course it was someone’s Uncle’s mate’s sister’s brother in law’s cousin’s friend’s kid, and they just ‘knew’ is was the vaccine.

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              BB

              To Amyintheworld – I’m pro-vax, but this was a recent one. http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/national/flu-vaccine-not-ruled-out-in-toddlers-death/story-e6frg15u-1225917357870
              I’m not sure if anyone can prove a death is definitely linked, but this is probably as close as you’d come to them making a link.

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              Plain Jaine

              Finally! Someone paying attention and only slightly rude, unlike Trevor who has clearly not read the comment guide lines.

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        kateincottesloe

        Are you kidding? No one is afraid of innocent unvaccinated children, the helpless victims of their idiotic parents. We’re afraid for our own children and ourselves. Why should we have to suffer so that moronic conspiracy theorists can wallow in the self-righteousness of their delusions. Parents who refuse to vaccinate their children are fools and fools are dangerous. Afraid of children – what a silly, facetious thing to suggest. Reductio ad absurdum.

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    Anonymous

    This is ridiculous and PR at its worst.All of the children I know from school have been vaccinated and alot of their children have had chicken pox, whooping cough etc….why are the getting these diseases if they are vaccinated people???? Mia I’m really sick of you shoving your pro Vaccine ways down everyone’s throats.Why not publish a few articles where vaccination has gone wrong or some evidence of children who have been to hospital with these diseases despite being vaccinated.And to the person who kicked the mum and child out of playgroup you should be ashamed of yourself! Hmmmm how come 3 children from my playgroup who were vaccinated had chicken pox a few weeks ago.How come my grandma has a really bad flu and she had the flu injection? What are you saying that your cleaner because you have a hole heap of crap injected into your body? Your wrong.What a bunch of crap! It sounds just like the article you put on here about at home births where the poor woman died.Where we’re the stats about women who died in hospitals over the last year? I see a bit of a routine of articles against women who choose to do things differently.My little girls best friend is not vaccinated and she is healthy, beautiful and clean.She is welcome at my house any day.

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      ladybug

      yes vaccinated children may still get chicken pox and whooping cough, but the severity is greatly reduced. A local lady recently lost her 3 week old baby due to whooping cough. What right does someone have to let these diseases spread when they can be stopped?????

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        Anonymous

        Yes I have read the vaccination information.The family I saw the other day had a nasty dose of chicken pox and they were vaccinated.As well as 3/4 of the preschool class in Sydney who had severe whooping cough for 3 weeks or more despite being vaccinated.

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          Andy

          I know a family whose son died in a car accident. He WAS wearing a seat belt. Clearly seat belts are pointless and we should support people not wearing them.

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            amyintheworld

            My sisters were in a car accident and their seatbelts saved their lives, BUT the seatbelts also gave them really bad bruising across their chests (true story). Because of the possibility that there might be a minor injury from seatbelts, even though they save lives, we should stop people using them!

            (I in no way mean to demean those who have had very bad and dangerous reactions to vaccines, however I’m pointing out that a minor reactions (fever, a pockmark, a sore arm) are small prices to pay if it saves a life!)

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              Plain Jaine

              The not-so-small price the United States Vaccine Injury Fund has paid out in compensation to the vaccine-injured and their families is a matter of public record. As of late 2011 over 2 billion dollars has been paid to victims of vaccine-related injury or death.

              Here is a link:

              http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/index.php

              This site gives information about the fund:

              http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

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              Andy

              Plain Jaine,

              Your first link is to VAERS which is just a collection of things that happen after a vaccine. The “things” don’t even have to be related to the vaccine. They don’t even have to be suspected of being related. At one time, the list of “events” included a vaccine turning someone into the Incredible Hulk.

              Your second link isn’t working. How many cases have been awarded compensation and in what time-frame?

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          Marty

          With vaccine rates unnecessarily low, these diseases are given more of a chance to survive. I also put it to you that your anecdote is rubbish. The real statistics, easily accessed and readily available, heavily contradict your statement that so many vaccinated people are still getting the disease.

          The vaccines aren’t perfect. But if their effectiveness wasn’t subverted so much of this misinformation, the vaccines wouldn’t be necessary, as it became with smallpox.

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      rudyroo

      oh for goodness sake! Are you serious?

      Why do children still get chicken pox if they’ve been vaccinated?
      Why did your grandma get the flu even though she’d had the flu vax ?
      !!!!!!
      Have you not read ANYTHING about vaccinations?

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        Anonymous

        Yes you have the vaccination and you still get diseases which means it makes you no cleaner than someone who’s not.

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          trixie melodian

          @Anon – between 5-20% of vaccinated kids get the disease if they are exposed to it. Around 80-95% of unvaccinated kids get the disease if they are exposed to it.

          It’s basic probability, and I’d prefer to gamble on a virtually sure bet than a rank outsider when it comes to my kids’ health.

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            Curious

            I would love to love to know where this stat came from. Can you please refrence? It’s exactly the type of information I’m looking for.

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              trixie melodian

              @Curious – each vaccine has a separate figure, which is why I gave a broad range.

              If you Google “efficacy of X vaccine” and look for reputable organisations, they all cover the research.

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              Curious

              Why is Dr Google ok when it’s pro vaccine but not when it’s anti vaccine? As for reputable, the same can be said for the anti vaccine? Many people who are questioning vaccines aren’t byron bay hippies (not that there’s anything wrong with Byron Bay hippies). People who are questioning vaccines come from all walks of life.

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              Plain Jaine

              Well put, Curious.

              Google is good for some but not for others…

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              trixie melodian

              If you use reputable, credible sites, and use them to find incontrovertible facts and figures, backed up by multiple peer- reviewed studies, then the info is fairly reliable.

              If you read the AVN site and whale.to, then you will come out with crap.

              This info is also available from the vaccine manufacturers upon whom antivaxxers seem to rely and trust when it comes to the info in their package inserts.

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              trevor

              Google is fine…make sure the site is reliable and not owned by some anti medicine conspiracy nut that won’t enter into discussions and all they state are their own distorted opinions.
              Reliable sites with a gov.au will do the job.

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        Marty

        Children can still get chicken pox even if they’ve been vaccinated, and no one is trying to hide that information. However, it is a minority – that is, the majority of people vaccinated against chicken pox will never get it. I’ve never had it. As for flu – you’re supposed to get it more than once. My grandmother has never had the flu, as she keeps up with her flu vaccine. Obviously, what you’ve read about vaccines makes you think you know something that other people don’t know, but I put it to you that what you’ve read about vaccines is unreliable or not enough.

        So yes, serious is the order of the day.

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          Marty

          Also, from above, Google is only useful if you know how to determine what is reliable information, and what is not. Instead of Googling “vaccination,” try Googling “immunisation”

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      son

      Mia, PLEASE keep shoving your pro Vaccine ways down everyone’s throats.

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        Lulu

        Publishing articles on *her own* blog is scarcely ‘shoving it down throats’.

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          A non

          I think Son is humorously countering Anonymous’ original comment above which asks Mia to stop shoving her opinions down our throats…

          I took it as a ‘please keep up the good fight, Mia’ statement and if I’m wrong, I take back my ‘like’ of Son’s comment!

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            son

            yes A non thats what i was meaning. Thank you for “getting” my comment :) Please keep up the fight Mia….

            Gosh guys, read my comment properly before going crazy on me….

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        Guest

        No one said you had to read this article.

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        trevor

        Please don ‘t shove your opinion of Mia’s blog down the throats of readers. Make a meaningful contribution with some robust arguements based on facts….if that is possible.

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        kateinlondon

        yes yes yes.

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      katehunter

      One of my son’s best mates is a complete grub but he’s fully vaccinated and I’d prefer him to visit than an unvaccinated child any day.

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        Plain Jaine

        Why are you afraid of an unvaccinated child? Haven’t you had your booster shots?

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          katehunter

          I didn’t say I was afraid of an unvaccinated child. But if there was a tiny baby at my home, or in my doctors’ waiting room, I’d be afraid for him or her. So the unvaccinated child isn’t welcome at my place.

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            Plain Jaine

            Fair enough. How do you know who is vaccinated or unvaccinated?

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              Rick Morton

              That’s the problem! We don’t!

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              trixie melodian

              They are usually wearing an amber teething necklace and their mum probably has on at least one item of Indian-cotton clothing.

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              katehunter

              I don’t. That’s the scary thing and exactly why all kids should be vaccinated.

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              Plain Jaine

              Look around. They are everywhere. With or without an amber necklace.

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              BB

              Wow.. that’s an amazing generalisation Trixie – I first saw the amber necklace on the child of a nurse at playgroup whose husband was a lawyer – no Indian wear in sight. No that I believe in them because I’m too much of a skeptic, but that’s pretty offensive.

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              Anonymous

              @BB I reckon that stats are on my side. I’m not suggesting that everyone with an amber necklace is an antivaxxer, but I am pretty confident that a disproportionate number of antivaxxers put amber necklaces on their kids.

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          Faybian

          Ok, I’m going to bite. I’m afraid of unvaccinated kids atm because my immune system is down after major surgery and I don’t feel it would do my head (it was brain surgery) a lot of good to be repeatedly coughing for 3 or more months, ok? The last time I came across someone with whooping cough was a few years ago and neither I, my husband or children (all vaccinated) caught it, but I would worry about it currently.

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            Plain Jaine

            I hope your surgery turned out well. If you are vaccinated, then you should not fear someone who isn’t, correct? Unless the vaccine doesn’t work.

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              Faybian

              It did, but my immune system is still not at it’s best. I recently had a common cold that knocked the stuffing out of me and no one else in the family. I am painfully aware of the fact that I need a booster jab at the moment and will be going to my GP ASAP. So Yes, I am wary of the unvaccinated for now.

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              trixie melodian

              I can’t work it out. Do you:
              a) subconsciously ignore the comments that contradict and disprove your statements in some kind of doublethink and keep repeating your lies;
              b) have your incorrect ideas so entrenched in your head, that evidence to the contrary just slips past without sinking in; or
              c) deliberately keep repeating lies and misinformation in the hope that you will confuse at least one more soul who doesn’t have all the facts on vaccination?

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              MJ

              Jaine you’re arguing like a three year old. You are perfectly aware from other comments (and presumably your own research.. it’s a pretty basic part of vaccine related research) that vaccines aren’t a 100% guarantee but are proven to lessen the severity if the disease in the unlikely event it is contracted despite vaccine.
              But still you post comments like this.

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          kateincottesloe

          Hey Plain Jane, why are you afraid of vaccinisation? Worried that the Sun Goddess is going to swallow the moon? Unvaccinated children could kill my kids and are quite likely to die of preventable diseases themselves.

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            Plain Jaine

            Rude and poorly spelled.

            If your kids are vaccinated how will unvaccinated kids “kill them”? Talk about scaremongering.

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              Anonymous

              You do realise that there is an age when children won’t be vaccinated for everything, regardless of if we wish they were? So when the unvaccinated kids pass on measles to the 6 month old baby they indeed can “kill them”? You get that, right?

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              kateincottesloe

              No spelling mistakes and no ruder than you honey. Yes an unvaccinated child could kill my newborn and yes, your unvaccinated child could quite easily die of whooping cough or influenza. It’s not scaremongering, just the truth. Shame you seem to have such a problem with it. There is just no changing the minds of people who believe that the earth is flat and that those who disagree with them are being wilfully ignorant. How about you believe what you want to believe and stop telling others that they are wrong because you disagree with them?

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              Plain Jaine

              To Kate,

              How about you believe what you want to believe and stop telling others that they are wrong because you disagree with them?

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              trixie melodian

              ummm, because facts, evidence and reality prove that you are wrong?

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      Cabbagefairy

      You do realise vaccinations work by putting a little of the disease into your body so you can build up an immunity to it right? I was vaccinated, and as a child had chicken pox but all that happened was I was a bit miserable and itchy for a week or so – I didn’t die. I think the anti vac brigade are forgetting these diseases normally have far worse results.

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      Zel

      I strongly urge you to read up about Polio, particularly Rotary Health’s efforts – and the effect that the vaccine has had on the world. 99% eradicated. Not just in Australia – EVERYWHERE. India just celebrated a year without a diagnosis. Not far to go until its gone. Vaccine had the biggest part to play in that.

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    Abbey

    I’m a final year medical student and recently completed a GP placement with a wonderful doctor who’s interest lies in primary care
    Pediatrics and family medicine. She encountered several families who, for varied reasons ranging from true contraindications through to homeopathic beliefs, meant their child would not be receiving immunization. Of course in all cases, other than those of true contraindication, the GP attempted to engage in comprehensive explanation and evidenced-based education of the parents, but in some cases it was blindly rebutted. Instead of push away those families who ultimately chose not to vaccinate, she made a ‘contract of health’ with the parents. This ‘contract’ aimed to ensure she would still have regular contact and check ups with the unvaccinated child. She asked the parents to always make an appointment at each of the dates throughout the child’s life when they would normally be receiving an immunization (multiple times throughout the first year of life, then 12 months, 18 months, 4 years etc etc). The GP said this plan helped to ensure she could still have regular opportunistic health check ups with those children. She said yet another one of the endless advantages of the vaccination schedule was simply the regular doctor appointments where, in addition to giving the immunization, she could keep an eye on a child’s general growth, health and well-being. She tried to avoid this ‘schedule of visits’ being lost to those against vaccination. I thought it was a brilliant example of comprehensive general practice at work!

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      lacer

      Are you saying those who don’t immunise don’t look after their children and don’t take them for check ups?

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    Paul Gallagher

    The belief objections which have driven down vaccination rates are entangled with significant social and psychosocial factors that range from being simply entertained to fully internalised.

    It’s clear however that objection to vaccination for demonstrably false reasons will persist for quite some time. As frustrating as it is it’s important to listen very closely to how objections are justified and try to address common themes and concerns about vaccination rather than refute specifics.
    Unfortunately using top down or straight forward ripostes tend to reinforce the myth whereas pulling at threads or mounting a fact based argument by itself will be more effective.
    Many refuse vaccination through simple ignorance boosted with bad advice. Eg: one doing the rounds now is most pertussis notifications are vaccinated and those unvaccinated make up a small percentage. Conclusion? The vaccine either causes pertussis or doesn’t work.

    But with 95% of children vaccinated against pertussis this is exactly what we expect to see.

    Just as most road fatalities are wearing seat belts, but we don’t blame seat belts, the reality is different. The fact is some parents are under the misconception than pertussis provides impervious immunity for life, when in fact immunity will save lives and any infection will be far less serious. Unvaccinated cases may die or be disabled for life.

    Added to this is the fact unvaccinated visit alternative to medicine providers at up to four times the rate of vaccinated. They are unlikely to consult a GP to thus become a notification. Many objectors do not register – thus become “unknown” statistics. All of this skews the results toward vaccinated and away from unvaccinated. In short, it does not represent the community reality. But in the hands of lobbyists it becomes a tool to misinform that pertussis vaccination is dangerous. I don’t think any parent should be denied medical consultation if they’ve been scammed this way.

    In the middle of this emerging crisis are innocent children. Eventually they will grow to the age at which OS travel becomes an option – after senior school or uni. This may precipitate some very nasty scenarios as they then return with diseases we simply do not see here.

    In this light, health authorities need to consider educating our youth about this, protecting their rights and offering the option of choosing the vaccines they were denied as children.
    If so, is the trend of denying medical consultation going to reinforce avoidance/distrust of medical professionals and vaccination?

    Thanks to the Aussie way of life one is free to be stupid and believe absurdities. Essentially this means the children of objectors are just as “unable to be vaccinated” as those with genuine medical reasons. In a democracy like ours, non-vaccinating parents can risk the lives of their children on a whim. Presently herd immunity protects these children from the errors of the parents. But for how long?

    We need more education about the benefits of vaccination and we need to address the deep seated factors driving ignorance.

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      Curious

      Paul Gallagher, thank you, this is exactly the attitude that is needed in the vaccine debate. People have questions, myself included, and everytime they’re expressed in a public domain, such a mamamia, they are shut down with name calling.

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        Paul Gallagher

        Cheers Curious.

        It’s frequently an emotional argument/debate because there actually is no debate. There’s the reality: vaccines are the single greatest health initiative our species has instigated, adding decades and health to our life span.

        Then there’s the strange beliefs than have grown on the back of this era of health luxury. Unfortunately this includes ideological bias and deception. Which means people will get scammed and misled.

        It’s no accident groups like the AVN and others who blame vaccines for everything also make money from peddling so called alternatives. They spend an inordinate amount of time spooking about toxins and chemicals when in fact they’re playing on ignorance.

        I could rant on about shampoo containing the ooze run-off from boiled cattle heads, hooves, bones, eyes, skins and particularly bovine anus tissue. This makes up tallow products – a big ingredient of “natural” oils. But I trust the chemical process that produces shampoo such that I know I don’t wash my hair in “cow anus”.

        Nor do I eat cow anus in jelly, marshmallow, gum or any other gelatine containing product. And should I see someone rubbing lanolin into their skin (or any of a hundred other moisturisers) I don’t scream that they’re rubbing the tacky ear wax-consistency grease of boiled sheep’s wool into their skin. In fact it takes at least 3 cycles to clean this goo out but it makes up the best (most effective) portion of lanolin.

        On and on it goes. Everything around us is a toxin or a chemical. But they don’t bother us via chemistry so much as via psychology. You’re exposed to thousands of times more “chemicals” on a trip to the local plant nursery or Bunnings than is in 1,000 vaccines.

        The basics to follow are simple.

        – If a site casts doubt over vaccination it is bogus. Ignore it.

        – If a site offers alternatives to vaccination it is certainly bogus.

        – Sites linking vaccination to supposed health problems like SIDS, SBS, the imagine “unhealthiest kids of all time” and/or “information not previously known” are seriously dodgy.

        – There are no significant health problems AT ALL documented as a result of vaccines. Claims to the contrary are false. Severe *reactions* are around 1,000 times less likely than from diseases.

        – Sites claiming your civil rights or “informed choice” has been compromised by present vaccine schedules are misleading.

        – In fact any site suggesting “informed choice” is a worthwhile pursuit on the topic of vaccination will seek to misinform you. The same goes for the term “research”.

        – If a site offers alternatives to medication or antibiotics beyond say a sniffle or a grazed knee, ignore it.

        – Any “testimonials” should be ignored as contrived. This is not evidence. You may point and laugh if you wish.

        – There is no “alternative medicine”. Only alternatives TO medicine. Speak to your doctor about them. Very few have any effect.

        – Vaccines are safe and whilst not 100% perfect they have changed the face of health in developed nations.

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          Curious

          – There are no significant health problems AT ALL documented as a result of vaccines. Claims to the contrary are false. Severe *reactions* are around 1,000 times less likely than from diseases

          I take great issue with this statement. This is only true because the reporting of adverse reaction to vaccines is non existant. I have had 3 children in my circle of friends have severe reactions following their jabs, each one requiring a hospital stay. In each instance, the parents were told that the reactions were not related to the jabs, even though the convulsions started soon after the shots. (If the same had occured after they ate some nuts, I’m sure it would have be investigate further) None of these reactions were reported to a centralised authority, because one doesn’t exist and the reporting that does exist is in the hands of the manufactures.

          I want to say with confidence that the risk doesn’t outweight the benefit but when I see these things happenig around me I find it a little hard to trust the benefit versus risk argument.

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            Paul Gallagher

            Yes, but diabetes, arthritis, obesity, autism, allergies, ADHD and other chronic diseases are what I’m getting at.

            Also, anaphylaxis is often due to latex stoppers in syringes and/or gloves – not the vaccine. Vaccine induced anaphylaxis is 0.65 – 1 per million.

            500 cases per million are due to eggs, cows milk, peanuts, tree nuts, medications, soybean, wheat, fish, shellfish, insect stings, sesame, latex.

            Also, beware of testimonials. The list of anaphylaxis inducing agents is huge. Temporal associations aren’t always causal. I’m sure the friends are convinced the vaccine caused this but the chances of you encountering 3 from a sample of 0.65 – 1 per million is practically zero.

            Unless there’s 3-5 million in your circle of friends. Hope that’s not harsh but facts often lack social skills.

            So, my real point is due to chronic diseases. Serious reactions with permanent outcomes are very rare.

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              Chuck

              Hi, I’m fairly new to this debate so can Paul please clarify if he is saying that vaccines can cause all those diseases listed in his first paragraph? If yes, where did you get your information?

              Cheers

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            Faybian

            Yes a centralized authority does exist. It’s called the public health unit (or similar) in each state. Adverse reactions are reported to them. These can then be sent to the nation health and medical research council, the national body. Stats on immunisation rates are kept by ACIR. None of these are related to the manufacturers at all. They are government bodies.
            As for your friends children having convulsions, what sort of gap was there between immunisation and seizure? What else was going on with the child at the time? Eg:cold, high temps etc

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            Judie

            A centralised reporting authority DOES exist. It is your state/region’s health authority. I know this because my oldest son had a bad reaction to the Hep B vaccination, and I was standing there when it was reported. I was also called that day and the following week by a nurse from said health authority. Neither of my sons has had a complete Hep B vaccination. It will need to be done through the Adverse Events Clinic at Westmead Hospital. As they get older it will need to be done, but thankfully it’s not as easy to contract as airborne diseases.

            For those who argue that we don’t need to immunise our kids: I bet you’ve never seen an iron lung? Or someone struggling to breath from diptheria? Or seen an older person struggle with post-polio syndrome because of the long-lasting effects of childhood polio? When you do, come talk about not vaccinating your kid/s.

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              Paul

              No Chuck.

              Vaccines cause no diseases.

              Vaccine deniers presently argue that improved diagnostic criteria and methods, which increases the DIAGNOSIS (identification) but not incidence of diseases are due to vaccination. Even SIDS (which is halved in vaccinated vs non-vaccinated infants) is blamed.

              Autism has increased in spectrum to a huge degree. Some claim there’s an “epidemic”. Yet, if we take today’s diagnostic criteria and apply it to “healthy” adults with no autism, we find exactly the same result – 1% – as children.

              Thus 30 years ago, these people weren’t diagnosed as anything but today qualify as autistic.

              Just read the thread backwards – all there.

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          Plain Jaine

          Hi Paul,

          Have you heard of the Vaccine Injury Fund? As of late 2011, this fund had paid out more than 2 billion dollars to vaccine injured victims and their families. That information is all available on the VAERS website, brought to you by the United States Government. That 2 billion+ dollars is courtesy of United States tax payers.

          We can conclude that vaccines do indeed cause harm.

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            Paul

            You didn’t read. “Reactions” are vaccine induced harm. As I said, at about 1,000 times less than the disease – if we take encephalitis from MMR vs from measles.

            Yet in the VICP cases files there’s not a single case for autism, diabetes, asthma, obesity, arthritis, ADHD or any of the “chronic diseases” supposedly linked to vaccines.

            So, in fact you are indeed mistaken. Chronic conditions are not vaccine induced reactions covered by compensation. To say so is misleading.

            Unless you can find me a case for arthritis or asthma.

            http://luckylosing.com/2012/01/06/vaccine-induced-autism-how-meryl-dorey-misled-her-woodford-audience/

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      Plain Jaine

      “Herd” immunity doesn’t work with vaccine-induced “immunity”. That is why you need booster shots. Ask your doctor.

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        Paul Gallagher

        Afraid your comment is nonsensical, Plain Jaine.

        You seem to be suggesting herd immunity is – or can only be – efficacious due to temporal integrity. I’ve never heard such a thing.
        Vaccine induced immunity IS the means by which herd immunity is ensured.

        Some immunity wanes – eg; pertussis. Booster shots ensure herd immunity.

        No vaccination = no herd immunity. This is how the present epidemic began. Period.

        Herd immunity is not a temporal (time related) phenomena but a quantitative (number vaccinated) result.

        So, herd immunity requires approx’ 85% vaccination. And, boosters are vaccines.

        I hope that helps.

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          Plain Jaine

          What “present epidemic”?

          All vaccine-induced immunity wanes, not just pertussis.

          “Herd” immunity is based on the idea that if a certain % of the population is vaccinated against an infectious disease, epidemics can be prevented. At first, it was 68 % needed to be vaccinated, now it is 95 to 100%, depending on the vaccine.

          It is assumed that high percentages of the population have been “immunised” in vaccine programs against smallpox, diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis which are some of the older vaccines in the schedule. Trouble is, if you are a baby boomer, most of the protection afforded by these vaccines given in childhood has waned many decades ago. This means that since baby boomers make up most of the population, there is no “herd” immunity because most of them have no protection.

          “Herd” immunity hasn’t existed for approx. 60 years. And you haven’t succumbed to a “vaccine-preventable” disease! Must have been those booster shots you received every 5 years of your life…

          I hope that helps.

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            Faybian

            The schedule allows for boosters throughout your life. For example the flu shot and triple antigen. The triple antigen is also reccommended for those regularly caring for a small infant under 6months old.

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              Plain Jaine

              That is accurate. And every baby boomer needs to get these booster shots. They may have to stand in line because there are a whole lot of them who have not enjoyed “herd” immunity for decades.

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              Kris2040

              But they have enjoyed herd immunity by everyone else getting vaccinated and getting boosters. That’s how herd immunity works – the more people who are immunised, the harder it is for a disease to get a foothold. Most grandparents I know of (ie baby boomers) have had boosters as their grandkids have been born.

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            Paul Gallagher

            We’ve been in a reduced immunisation induced pertussis epidemic since 2008.

            First you said:

            “Herd” immunity doesn’t work with vaccine-induced “immunity”.

            Now you say:

            “Herd” immunity is based on the idea that if a certain % of the population is vaccinated against an infectious disease, epidemics can be prevented….”.

            That’s a direct contradiction.

            Then continue:

            “At first, it was 68% needed to be vaccinated, now it is 95 to 100%, depending on the vaccine.”

            Which is further contradiction and quite confusing.

            100%? Really?

            Even if correct this does not challenge even your definition of herd immunity. It is a fact the shift to acellular pertussis vaccination equated to faster waning immunity. THEREFORE – not in addition to – herd immunity is considered adequate at higher percentages.

            Adults manage 11.3% booster thus present a reservoir of infection. We need about 85% at least.

            Then:

            ‘“Herd” immunity hasn’t existed for approx. 60 years. And you haven’t succumbed to a “vaccine-preventable” disease! Must have been those booster shots you received every 5 years of your life…”.

            5 years? What vaccine/s require boosters every 5 years? And even if I’ve had none, then herd immunity provided by others getting boosters has protected me.

            But I can see your confuzzled implication is that vaccines have no effect, yes? Then please make that case child.

            Herd immunity is not LIFELONG immunity. I said this earlier. It’s not a temporal phenomenon. It is due to an optimal percentage of vaccinated.

            Again, I’ve not heard anything quite so nonsensical as your argument – I’m sorry, genuinely I am most sorry.

            Herd Immunity:

            Measles (83-94%). Mumps (75 – 86%) Rubella (80-85%) Polio? (85%) Smallpox (85%).

            All these wane without boosters in all cases? Is this your claim? If there’s no evidence of immunity in adulthood vaccination is warranted but does not mean it was previously carried out.

            Nor does waning immunity refute vaccine efficacy.

            Aren’t you confusing this with percent efficacy? Or perhaps adults who never had initial immunisations?

            As for tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis, the advice for a 10 year booster is standard – and why they’re usually packaged together.

            So, essentially you’ve confirmed herd immunity is due to a certain level of vaccination.

            But as vaccine science has evolved, and advice has changed you’ve become confused because like many you’re under the misconception vaccine immunity is lifelong.

            Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn’t.

            You seem to be unwittingly defending herd immunity in an attempt to argue vaccine induced immunity wanes, thus herd immunity doesn’t exist.

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              plain Jaine

              You said : But as vaccine science has evolved, and advice has changed you’ve become confused because like many you’re under the misconception vaccine immunity is lifelong.

              Wrong. I’ve never be deluded by that misconception.

              What you didn’t know is that I have also never been deluded by the misconception that vaccines confer any immunity whatsoever.

              Next.

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    celia

    I have had meningitis, as an adult, and it is the most excruiciating pain I have ever been in: more than childbirth, more than dislocations, more than anything. And I was delibitated for weeks – had to be spoon fed and showered etc.
    I get very upset when i think that babies and children having to go through that.

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    whatahooha

    We had a lady join our playgroup who mentioned she didn’t believe in vaccination, and her two daughters weren’t vaccinated. There were 3 pregnant women and 2 newborns in our group.
    We ostracized her till she left.
    This was really mean, but I felt she was putting my children in danger: as if she had left the gate open to the main road, or the door to the poisons cupboard open.

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      Mickie

      That was really mean, why not be upfront and tell her you didnt want her to be part of your mothers group because of her stance on vaccination?

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        Cait

        Maybe thats what whatahooha did.. maybe she simply said, we are organising this, but we arent comfortable with you joining because your children (and possibly you) arent vaccinated.

        Unless we knew exactly what they did to ostracize the antivaxxer, its hard to say they were inappropriate.

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      Luke

      Couldn’t you just have had a chat with her over a cup of tea ?

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      whatahooha

      Oh sorry, I wasn’t clear. Yes, certainly did have the old chat over a cup of tea, several times. (We weren’t just Mean Girls) She made it very clear that she felt that we were the ones with the problem, which I suppose is true.
      The chats degenerated into arguments, and after that it became very hard to just do small-talk-chit-chat, when everyone’s feelings were running so strong.
      She had everyright to be there, having joined the assoc. and paid her fees, but we did not feel that gave her the right to put our families at risk.
      I know we were mean: I still feel bad about it.

      Like any lioness, I would do anything to protect my children from harm.

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      lacer

      No wonder people have bad experiences at playgroup. Gee I’m glad I didn’t join yours, talk about bullying. I think her children were more in danger than yours. By the way I am not anti-vax, mine are vaccinated.

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    missgalore

    It does happen here. I have a good friend who chooses not to vacinate. She has had to change drs and has had trouble finding one she has confidence in that also accept that she doesn’t vaccinate her children.
    She has chosen not to vacinate due to the pressure from her partner and in-laws, but when there was news of a massive whooping cough outbreak suddenly started talking vacination.

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      Rick Morton

      I was wondering what the individual doctors would choose to do. Of course the AMA would never single anyone out, but I did wonder…

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        missgalore

        we live in a area with alot of anti vaxers. I think its the only way the drs can educate or have some control. I know it came as a rude shock to her when she was told by more than one dr that they would not treat her child regularly(excluding emergency) if they were unvacinated and that if they needed medical care find a dr more in line with her beliefs or go to the hospital.

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      trixie melodian

      “She has had to change drs and has had trouble finding one she has confidence in that also accept that she doesn’t vaccinate her children.”

      LOL the irony! She wants to find a qualified, trustworthy medical professional who is willing to accept her choice to disregard one of the greatest benefits to public health in human history. Good luck!

      IMO any doctor who supports not vaccinating is a quack who should be struck off.

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        Plain Jaine

        Just can’t stop name calling, can you. Do you know if your doctor is up to date with his or her vaccines? Better check.

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          trixie melodian

          If a doctor does not believe in the scientific method, and is incapable of analysing the mountains of research that prove vaccines to be overwhelmingly safe and effective then yes, s/he is a quack.

          Thankfully, a vast, vast majority of doctors are appropriately educated and informed and do support vaccination.

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    Greenslopes Witch

    There is an unqualified woman speaking in Brisbane this weekend about the dangers of vaccines and vaccinations. It costs $20pp and is at a secret location. I am just horrified at this! My family is fully vaccinated yet my 9yo still manged to catch whooping cough 6 weeks ago. She gave it to me, my 13 yo and the 2 yo neighbour. There is nothing worse that watching your child cough uncontrollably at 3 am knowing there is nothing you can do help. According to the National Pertussis workshop held in August 2011, Australia is the world capital of pertussis. We need herd immunity and we need it now!

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      Mia

      Yessss! I bet it’s Meryl Dorey from the Anti-Vaccination Network who is speaking. Dangerous dangerous stuff.

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        Rachael Dunlop

        Hi Mia, It’s not Meryl this time (although she is talking on The Sunshine Coast in April). It’s Stephanie Messenger who recently wrote a children’s book called “Melanie’s Marvellous Measles”. It’s described as

        “This book takes children aged 4 – 10 years on a journey of
        discovering about the ineffectiveness of vaccinations, while teaching
        them to embrace childhood disease, heal if they get a disease, and
        build their immune systems naturally.”

        Delightful :/

        Her talk in Brisbane this Saturday and in Katoomba on March 1st are at a secret locations which will be advised the night before (via SMS I think).

        Details of NSW talks here http://www.betterlivingresources.info/page/874462

        QLD here http://www.betterlivingresources.info/page/885551

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          Andy

          Secret locations known only to those on the inside.

          Hmmm, Illuminati perhaps?

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        RetroPastiche

        Yes Mia, it is Meryl. She’s speaking in Maroochydore on Saturday night. She’s asked for assistance (unpaid of course) on her FB page. She hasn’t released the venue details publicly, obviously she doesn’t want anybody to attend who might be able to correct her misinformation.

        This is happening just 5 days before her anti-vaccination network is due to appear in the Supreme Court in Sydney. Hopefully on that date she will be told to cease and desist all scare-mongering for good.

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        Tracey

        I think it’s Stephanie Messenger, author of children’s anti-vax book ‘Melanie’s Marvelous Measles’.

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          RetroPastiche

          Stephanie is speaking in Brissie that night. Also a ‘tba’ for the venue. Anti-vax overload in QLD poor things!

          I wonder whether Meryl and Stephanie will catch up for drinkies afterwards?

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            RetroPastiche

            Apologies – Dr Rachie is correct (as always). MD is indeed spruiking for her rant on April 18 in Maroochydore. Too many anti-vaxxers spreading their untruths for me to keep up with.

            I wonder if the decision doesn’t go her way next week in the Supreme Court whether she’ll still front up? And if she doesn’t, and people have paid, if they’ll get refunds?

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      Mia

      Thrilled that someone is making money from spreading lies and misinformation about the ‘dangers’ of vaccination and putting innocent babies lives at risk.
      BRILLIANT. :(

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        Plain Jaine

        Making money like Merck, GSK, Pfizer…

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          RetroPastiche

          Making money like Mercola, Tenpenny, and Dorey…

          Not to mention the “wellness” scammers like homeopaths who sell you bottles of magic water, or inject it into the gullible causing infections.

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            Plain Jaine

            Making money like the peddlers of Vioxx, HRT, DES, Ritalin, Prozac…

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              Anonymous

              mm because none of those drugs do anyone any good right..

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          Marty

          All registered companies making a perfectly legitimate profit from a carefully regulated industry. It’s the conspiracy theories that make it hard for anyone to take the antivax movement seriously. Why would these companies risk so much by pushing a product that was knowingly dangerous? Many companies have failed for much less. And on that note, these companies profit far more from treatment meds and cosmetics than from vaccines – vaccines which are actually produced and developed by independent scientists. All the company does is sponsor the research and then distribute the product for a profit on the billions they spent on the initial research. Particularly the billions they spend on research into products, including vaccines, that never make it past the strict regulations. There are more vaccines that fail their trials than those that pass.

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            Cranky Pants

            You sound like a shill, Marty.

            Ever heard of “tobacco science”? It’s the same concept as “vaccine science”.

            Follow the money trail when researching either.

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            Chuck

            ‘Independent’ research “sponsored” by multi-national corporations. That’s a good one.

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          Andy

          “Making money like Merck, GSK, Pfizer…”

          At least if I order a vaccine, I get a vaccine.

          Try ordering as magazine subscription from the AVN and see how you go with that. Only one out of six published last year and only two out of six the year before. So you pay for twelve and get three.

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            trixie melodian

            LMAO Andy!

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          amyintheworld

          Yes, they make money. They need to, because research costs a bundle. In order to continue researching, they need to make money. Ever wondered why Cancer foundations ask for donations? Because research costs millions of dollars. If we didn’t give money to pharmaceutical companies, they couldn’t do valuable research which then leads to new medications and treatments that can save lives.

          Your comment suggests that these companies are only in it for the money, and whilst I don’t like the cost of patents which makes it difficult for those with less money to access certain medications, I would never assume that everyone in the industry are money-hungry evil doers. That seems to be the assumption from the anti-vax crowd and it’s getting on my last nerve. It’s insulting to the thousands of scientists who dedicate their lives to researching and helping others.

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      Curious

      I really don’t understand the fear about unvaccinated children? If you’re children are immunised, doesn’t that meant that they’re protected? Surely it’s the unvaccinated children that should be getting all the diseases and the vaccinated children should be standing strong?

      I read all the comments in the vaccine post a few days ago and noticed that lots of people had stories of their vaccinated children contracting the very disease that they’re immunised against. Now I know that no vaccine has a 100% success rate, but every child that I have encountered in the last five year who has had whooping cough, and there have been a few (I’m a teacher) has been vaccinated.

      I’m not trying to be difficult here but I am genuinely interested. Surely if your child is immunised then you’ve got nothing to worry about: at best, they don’t get the disease and, at worst, they contract the disease but a much milder version because they have the immunity from the vaccine to protect them.

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        Emily

        Its all about ‘herd’ immunity. If enough of the population is vaccinated so on one gets it- protecting people who are either immune suppressed, vulnerable because of age (elderly OR too young to be vaccinated yet) and yes people who are vaccinated. Vaccines offer some protection and if you do contract the disease it will most likely be of lesser severity then if you weren’t, but vaccines are at their very best where an entire community is vaccinated. That’s how we stamped out polio, mass sustained Community immunisation- herd immunity.

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          Plain Jaine

          ‘Herd” immunity is based on the idea that if a certain % of the population is vaccinated against an infectious disease, epidemics can be prevented. At first, it was 68 % needed to be vaccinated, now it is 95 to 100%, depending on the vaccine.

          It is assumed that high percentages of the population have been “immunised” in vaccine programs against smallpox, diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis which are some of the older vaccines in the schedule. Trouble is, if you are a baby boomer, most of the protection afforded by these vaccines given in childhood has waned many decades ago. This means that since baby boomers make up most of the population, there is no “herd” immunity because most of them have no protection. “Herd” immunity hasn’t existed for approx. 60 years.

          This can only mean one thing!

          Booster shots for everyone!

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            linda

            ” ‘Herd’ immunity hasn’t existed for approx. 60 years”.

            You have a source for this assertion? Please provide it if you do. If not, you’re talking nonsense.

            And yes, booster shots for adults are a great idea. I’m booked in for mine next week.

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              Plain Jaine

              Again, rude.

              Do the figures. If baby-boomers haven’t been getting booster shots at least every 10 years in the past 50 of their lives and they make up the largest % of the population, there is no “herd” immunity in that population. It’s not rocket science.

              Vaccine-induced immunity wanes after as little as 5 years.

              Again, ask your doctor. He or she knows the truth.

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              Marty

              Absolutely, accuse her of being rude instead of digging up the evidence requested. Great strawman tactic there. The fact is, when there is evidence to the contrary of a claim, then stating the claim is nonsense is not rude. Just because you’re offended about being wrong doesn’t make someone calling your claims nonsense rude.

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              trixie melodian

              @Jaine “Again, ask your doctor. He or she knows the truth.”

              Exactly Jaine, ask your doctor. And they will tell you that vaccination is the safest and most effective way of protecting your kids.

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              linda

              Indeed, it’s not rocket science to understand your hypothesis Plain Jane – you’re suggesting herd immunity hasn’t existed for approx. 60 years because baby boomers’ immunity has waned.

              Without evidence (‘do the figures’ doesn’t cut it as evidence), it’s just that, an untested hypothesis. Are you able to provide references to studies that have tested this hypothesis? You didn’t provide evidence when you first said that herd immunity doesn’t exist, and you didn’t provide evidence when asked to. I’m beginning to suspect there is no evidence for your assertion and therefore it should be discounted by readers.

              Sorry, I agree ‘nonsense’ was a little bit rude. What I meant was, you’re not providing any useful information.

              Again, your suggestion of booster shots is a helpful one, and yes, people should speak to their doctors.

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            Faybian

            Umm, don’t know if you’ve noticed, but no one gets vaccinated against smallpox anymore. Remember? It got eradicated.

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            trevor

            Herd immunity varies from disease to disease due to each disease having its own infectiousness, window of infectivity, etc.

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        The Original Steph

        Curious, the answers to your question:

        1. There are members of society who are more vulnerable than the general population. These people include newborns, who cannot be vaccinated until 6 weeks, pregnant women, immuno compromised people (think people with weakened immune systems, such as those with cancer, for whom a slight illness could kill them) and the elderly. The main reason we need to keep the vaccination rates at at accpetable level is to protect these people.

        2. Vaccines are not 100% effective. Some have higher efficacy than others. E.g. Chicken Pox vaccine is only 70-90% effective, and pertussis is only 85%
        The overall point of mass vaccination is to create an acceptable level of “herd immunity” so that these vaccine preventable diseases are no longer able to penetrate the community. If enough people are vaxxed, then the disease in question has trouble finding a host. That is the ultimate goal.

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        Lu

        I think most people who vaccinate their kids, by nature of their choice, are mainly concerned about those who are too young to be vaccinated and those who through illness and things like chemotherapy have low immunity. People choosing not to vaccinate their children can cause the death of these innocent people through their choice. And of course if you are informed enough to consider vaccinating your children the right thing to do it will be upsetting when your child contracts a mild dose of the illness. Because if everyone was vaccinated the disease would not be speading.

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          The Original Steph

          The mentalities are so variable, I find. When I had my son last year, I was terrified of Pertussis, but I learned that those who dont vaccinate dont care about MY son or other vulnerable newborns, they are only going to protect their OWN children from The Autisms. Their responsibilties are to their own kids, thank you very much!
          Now that my son is 1 and up to date with his vaxxes, and many of my friends are having babies also..I am so damn proud and excited to tell them that we are all FULLY vaccinated before we visit. I enjoy caring about community health and keeping babies safe. I enjoy being a part of it.

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          Curious

          Thank you to the above reponses. I find these vaccine arguments often disintergrate into name calling, and that rational responses are few and far between.

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        Kellys

        While it is true that once vaccinated, children who contract a prevetable disease – such as whooping cough – do get a milder version, but that is still very serious. My children, who were one and three at the time, contracted whooping cough from a unvaccinated child at our playgroup (I was unaware that the child was not vaccinated, as the mother knew that children were supposed to be vaccinated to attend our playgroup). My one year old ended up being hospitalised, but fortunately recovered well.

        The real concern about people choosing not to vaccinate surrounds those who cannot be vaccinated – small babies and other children who for medical reasons cannot receive certain immunisations. These babies and children are having their health and safety compromised by other peoples misinformed decisions. Whooping cough can be fatal for a baby, and it is an awful, awful thing to watch your child so incredibly sick despite everything you have done to try and protect them.

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          Curious

          “My children, who were one and three at the time, contracted whooping cough from a unvaccinated child at our playgroup”

          Sorry to hear about your child being sick, I agree it’s horrible to see any child be sick.

          Did the unvaccinated child have whooping cough? What happened to that child?

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        Mia

        Curious,
        Babies under 2 months cannot be immunized. These are the babies who. An die if they contract a preventable illness. Thy rely on herd immunity – something unvaccinated people are eroding.

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          Curious

          That may be true, but this lady didn’t have a newborn, her children were 1 and 3. Going by the recommended schedule, her children should have been fully immunised by those ages, as should have been all of the other children in the playgroup, which I’m assuming were all of a similar ages as is usually the case when people form a mother’s group.

          My question still stands, did the unimmunised child have whooping cough?

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            Kellys

            Yes, Curious, the unimmunised 3 year old from playgroup did have undiagnosed whooping cough which my children were exposed to. Whooping cough is really unusual in that there can be very few sypmtoms initially and takes a swab test to confirm. My older child showed the symptoms first, probably because he would have had direct contact with the sick boy, and it was assumed my one year old caught it from her brother.

            It was a puzzle for us as to where my children were exposed to this, and it was only when I was contacting everyone I knew to let them know that my children had whooping cough and that they should be aware and conscientious with their own children, that I discovered about the unvaccinated little boy being in hospital, and that he was not vaccinated. He apparently caught it after travelling to visit family who had recently been overseas. The mum form playgroup only knew this because she ran into the father at the shops – no effort was made to contact other parents.

            I have to say that I do not kow all the details of that little’s boys illness and treatment, only that he did recover but it took a long time. What I do know is that my little girl, who had just turned one, was coughing so much that she couldn’t breathe at times. Her tiny little body was literally convulsing with the strength of the cough, and I was told by numerous doctors that the vaccination almost certainly saved her life. She is just one of those people with a particular susceptability to whooping cough.

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          popcorn

          This is the reason why my parents have decided to postpone their visit from overseas when our baby is born (they originally booked to come over about 3 weeks after my due date). My mum cannot have the WC vaccine and her doctor was adamant that she must not have it. So my parents have decided to reschedule their flights for later even though it will cost them extra and my in-laws are coming over first instead.

          We are all disappointed, but both agreed it was for the best (even though some people might think we’re being paranoid). My mum isn’t comfortable visiting baby before baby is immunised, especially after sitting on a plane for a few hours with no immunisation herself.

          On the other hand, my mum told me that one of my sisters is anti-vax and chose not to vaccinate her children. I find it really difficult to understand why you would not want to take every precaution possible to protect your children’s health if there is no valid reason why you cannot be vaccinated.

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        ladybug

        So, Curious, what happens when a child who is too young to be vaccinated contracts a preventable disease and dies? Selfishness and ignorance at its worst.

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          Curious

          This lady was not talking about a newborn. Obviously my question is not going to get answered.

          What about the children who do get the vaccine and have sever reactions, or worse yet die? What about their pain and suffering?

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            trixie melodian

            @curious – how many documented cases can you show me of kids who have suffered a severe reaction or died from the whooping cough vaccine? (and no, a mild fever the night of the injection doesn’t count)

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              trixie melodian

              And @curious, just because this specific case is talking about toddlers, that doesn’t mean that dozens of newborns aren’t exposed to diseases that shouldn’t even be seen in a developed nation like Australia.

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        Andy

        “If you’re children are immunised, doesn’t that meant that they’re protected?”

        I look at it this way…

        Although seat belts offer excellent protection, people driving drunk and speeding still pose a serious risk on our roads.

        “…every child that I have encountered in the last five year who has had whooping cough, and there have been a few (I’m a teacher) has been vaccinated.”

        When 95% of kids are vaccinated, most infected kids are likely to have been vaccinated. It seems counter-intuitive but what matters is the comparable rate of infection between the vaxed and unvaxed. If 95% of kids are vaxed but only 50% of infected kids are vaxed, then the vax is working.

        Again, think of it this way…

        Almost everyone who drives or rides in a car wears a seat belt. But seat belts aren’t perfect. Therefore, the majority of people injured in car accidents were likely to be wearing a seat belt. Overall though, seat belts offer a significant level of protection and the seat belt wearers will likely fare better in an accident than those who don’t wear one.

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        lacer

        that’s how I feel. I think the anti vaxes should be more scared of the immunised.

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      Rick Morton

      Ah yes, that would be Stephanie Messenger who wrote the children’s ‘book’ (I’d say more like propaganda manual, but anyhow) called Melanie’s Marvellous Measles. It is described as: “This book takes children aged 4 – 10 years on a journey of discovering about the ineffectiveness of vaccinations, while teaching them to embrace childhood disease, heal if they get a disease, and build their immune systems naturally.”

      Disgusting.

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        Lulu

        “teaching them to embrace childhood disease, suffer if they get a disease, and die naturally.”

        There, fixed that for her.

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        Judie

        Knowing people who have had babies die from SIDS, I am absolutely disgusted that she can say she has a way to protect babies from it 100%. No-one can do that. Those poor people who are going to pay money to hear the opinion of an uninformed scare-monger.

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    An Idle Dad

    Doctors – maybe. Schools – definitely. I don’t want my children going to school with unvaccinated children. I have newborns at home who aren’t fully vaccinated yet.

    Fortunately, the Central Coast NSW has one of the highest vaccinations in Australia. If I still lived in the Eastern Suburbs though, I might have cause for concern.

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      Lu

      A few of us left our mothers group because of one woman who didnt vaccinate her child.

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    Anonymous

    Vaccination story again?*sigh*

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      Rick Morton

      Yes, it’s terrible that we keep tabs on public debate like this. I’m of half a mind to write myself a letter.

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      linda

      Global warming story again? Sigh.
      Road safety story again? Sigh.
      Sun protection story again? Sigh.

      Yes let’s have more stories about the Beckhams Kardashians Minogues or Middletons. Sigh.

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      Andy

      Someone sighing about a vaccination story again? Sigh.

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      mamaruns

      “anonymous” bravely making a negative statement again? *sigh*

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    Bec

    Have just finished Panic Virus and think it should be a must read for every parent. Both my kids are immunised and always will be considering the youngest has seizures every time his temp gets above 37.5 or so. I am not risking preventable diseases. Turning away non vaccinators is a hard one because as mentioned its a Doctors duty to help…

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      Marty

      Doctors have a responsibility to help, yes, but their job requires them to weigh up the risks, as well. There is only so much a doctor can do, and if parents are willingly choosing to not vaccinate their child, and their child comes in sick and endangers other children in his practice, than that doctor should be able to turn them away, or perhaps offer an alternative. I don’t see anything wrong with a doctor saying, “Hey, it was your call not to get your kids vaccines, I told you he’d get sick, and now here you bring him to make these other kids sick – kids with responsible parents and problems that aren’t due to your neglect. Please take yourself and your child out of my practice, maybe try the hospital instead or another doctor nearby.” It might seem callous, but that doctor has a responsibility to all his patients, just like parents have a responsibility to their own kids.

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        WillaWay

        Maybe we could just intern everyone who doesn’t vaccinate to a special cordonned off section of Australia where the only health care they can access is by doctors willing to visit, or through the internet, so the rest of us can live free of fear. But, wait, that might be alarmist, extreme, undemocratic, and create a society I wouldn’t want to live in…

        Some communicable diseases can be eradicated through vaccination programs. For others, vaccination is not 100%, so let’s not panic and blame the chickenpox, say, on unvaccinated people. Ridiculous. You can still get it/spread it once vaccinated.

        Maybe, just maybe, there’s a way to be less hateful towards that *minority* of people who are never going to be convinced by mainstream medicine – and do we really want to force everyone to submit to vaccination or be excluded from, well, social life? We are pretty sophisticated, and have high levels of public hygiene in Australia. We are not overcrowded. There are plenty of sensible ways to manage these risks without becoming as OTT as anti-vaxxers. For example, do you read all the evidence about each vaccination, or just take it one someone else’s expertise and media consensus? Not every new vaccine developed will be perfect. ALl stake-holders have their own perspectives. Vaccine developers and producers are in it for the money. They are happy to use preservatives etc to which some people will have some kind of reaction and sometimes only change their formulae when regulations insist. Other vaccines do have minimal testing – i.e. it is completely unknown what the long-term effects (good ones) of the chicken pox vaccine are. For other vaccines, there are other short- and long-term unknowns. Risks and benefits are always balanced in approvals of medicines and vaccines. Not every decision is perfect in hindsight. People should have the choice to stay informed and make an informed choice without being made pariahs. Many pro-vaccination professionals willingly concede that there are more pressing health issues in Australia for both individuals and social groups. Extreme groups who use illegal means to spread fear about vaccinations can be dealt with in the media and the courts – as they are. Yes, governments, private scientists, the medical profession, the informed and intelligent media (?) should continue to promote the use of scientific methods and evidence-seeking and evidence-provision. Yes, this should be sustained and maintained through public education. Does it need to be supplemented by vitriol and hate towards those who are not convinced by reason? Do we need to promote and endorse uninformed attacks on and prejudicial treatment of individuals who don’t vaccinate, who may well have good reason for it (e.g. there are many many reasons for a small number of individuals not to vaccinate, well supported by evidence and informed doctors).

        I would like to see all the strident anti-anti-vaccers getting so worked up over the time taken to close the gap between Indigenous and non-indigenous health outcomes or the outrageous lack of mental health services available to people on lower incomes and/or in regional areas in Australia. These issues continue to be so huge, in part because past and current policies silently benefitted all those who coincidentally are so loud about the still small number of anti-vaccers in our communities. And we are quite happy to silently benefit from health dollars coming our own way instead of to more disadvantaged groups, so no song and dance is raised about it. And they affect many many many more people than what anti- and non-vaccinated people do.