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Screen shot 2012 03 05 at 11.21.57 AM The circumcision debate. Discuss

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Researchers connected to the Circumcision Foundation of Australia have presented what they claim is the world’s first evidence-based policy for male circumcision saying the benefits vastly outweigh the complications, which they say occur in less than one per cent of cases. Lead author Professor Brian Morris, from the University of Sydney, claimed the evidence was now so clear it was time to act.

“The evidence in favour of infant circumcision is now so strong that advocating this simple, inexpensive procedure for baby boys is about as effective and safe as childhood vaccination,” he said. “In contrast to the comments of opponents, the scientific evidence shows no adverse effects on sexual function, sensitivity, satisfaction or sensation, if anything the opposite. Many common childhood conditions, including kidney damage, will become very rare if baby boys are circumcised in the first weeks of life.”

Big call.

Before we jump into the tug-of-war that is the circumcision debate, let’s be clear that Professor Brian Morris is an advocate for circumcision. But the policy paper is based on studies and research from around the world that he didn’t personally conduct. So even if you doubt Prof Morris, the data still exists and has been used to navigate a difficult health concern around the world.

And it’s not an easy one for many parents. Male circumcision can be both a cultural norm, a religious tradition or something parents choose because, well, they had to choose something and it seemed like a good idea at the time. But there’s always been a bit of debate about that one. Some people aren’t cut and choose to do it as an adult. Guy Ritchie was reportedly circumcised to fall in line with then wife Madonna’s religious beliefs.

Wonder how he feels about that now…

Shall we see what the research shows?

The Study

Infant male circumcision: an evidence-based policy statement examined evidence from around the world to see whether male circumcision was all that necessary. Here’s what it found.

Urinary tract infections

More uncircumcised boys got urinary tract infections than circumcised boys, especially as babies in the first six months of life when UTIs are most common. The prevalence was 1-4% in those without the snip compared to less than 0.2% in those who had been cut.

Hygiene

The study claims hygiene is easier to maintain in circumcised boys who don’t have the added burden of foreskin to navigate when cleaning.

HIV

The paper cites other studies which show male circumcision affords a 60 per cent protection against HIV. Other factors over time increase that protection to around 75 per cent, an effect the authors say makes it nearly as effective as the influenza vaccine. The Centre for Disease Control (CDC) in the United States has touted male circumcision as a cost-saver for the money the country spends on treating HIV.

Other Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs)

The paper says: “Male circumcision protects against many, but not all, sexually transmitted infections (STIs). In the case of syphilis, genital herpes (HSV-2) and chancroid, a meta- analysis of 26 studies, including 2 from Australia, found lower prevalence in circumcised men.”

Cervical cancer in women

The paper looked at studies which showed the risk of contracting cervical cancer was four times higher if a woman had a high-risk male partner (more than six sexual partners) who was uncircumcised. “An inverse relation exists between Male Circumcision (MC) and cervical cancer prevalence across 118 countries,” the paper stated. Circumcision in male partners also helps reduce rates of STIs in women, such as genital warts and chlamydia.

Sexual function

The study found ‘no adverse effects’ on sexual function, performance or satisfaction of men who were circumcised.

The Conclusion

The current scientific evidence is more than adequate to support a recommendation of male circumcision in Australia and other developed countries as a low-risk, highly beneficial procedure that is best performed in infancy using a local anesthetic. Infant male circumcision should appear on the check-list of decisions responsible parents need to make for their children.”

Professor Morris said: It is now up to State Governments to ensure than bans on elective infant male circumcision in public hospitals are lifted without delay. And it is essential that the Federal Government revises the Medicare rebate so that this procedure is affordable for low-income families. The costs saved will be enormous, as this policy statement shows that half of uncircumcised males will suffer an adverse medical condition over their lifetime, and many will die as a result of diseases preventable by circumcision. Benefits outweigh minor risks by over 100 to 1.”

Opponents

In the United States particularly, a groundswell of circumcision opponents has been finding a voice. The Intactivists, as they are known, argue male circumcision – like that in females – should be considered genital mutilation and an act of torture.

This from the Miami New Times:

“Foremost, the anti-circumcision crowd believes boys should be able to decide what happens to their bodies — especially in the case of a medically unnecessary amputation. They have likened circumcision to female genital mutilation — the cutting of a girl’s genitals to kill her libido or make her “clean” — which is practiced in parts of Africa and the Middle East but condemned by most developed nations.

Circumcision critics charge that most arguments for the procedure are based on flawed logic. The idea that a child should look like his father? Well, who goes around comparing penises with his dad? The notion that the child will be called an “anteater” in the locker room? They liken it to shame that used to be applied to other once-taboo customs such as interracial marriage. An online “intactivism shop” — where “only the prices are rounded off” — sells T-shirts and bumper stickers declaring “hooded warrior” and “anteater pride.”

Not all intactivists have such a cute sense of humor. Some accuse doctors of having a financial motivation for performing circumcisions. There are websites that “out” celebrities as intact and villainize researchers who have publicly promoted circumcision. Some even go so far as to accuse individuals of circum-fetish — being sexually aroused by circumcision.

Last summer, intactivists in San Francisco scored a win when they collected enough petition signatures to get a measure on the ballot that would ask voters to ban infant circumcision. The victory backfired, however; the ballot measure was stricken by a judge. After a huge outcry — especially by Jews, who found the notion anti-Semitic — the state legislature came down forcefully, passing a law that prevents local municipalities from attempting to ban circumcision.”

Cosmetic circumcision is currently banned in all Australian public hospitals and the Queensland Law Reform Commission found that, strictly speaking, routine male circumcision could be interpreted as a criminal offence under the criminal code. This was one view based on a strict reading of the letter of the law and circumcisions continue to take place there with no prosecutions registered.

The Australian Medical Association neither discourages nor explicitly recommends male circumcision in infants.

So, are circumcisions a cut above the rest or genital mutilation? What experience can you add to the debate?

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469 Comments so far

  1. Jim

    I don’t think cutting off your foreskin does anymore to prevent AIDS than using a condom – that’s a pretty dumb argument, and I don’t really give a $hit if parents decide to circumcise their kids or leave them whole.

    I WILL say, as someone who was circumcised at 23, that there is absolutely no difference in sexual sensation or sensitivity before or after. All you clowns crying about not having any sensitivity, unless you’ve had it both ways you really have no idea. I had plenty of sex before I was circumcised, I’ve had plenty after – it’s still bloody fantastic. No difference.

    I probably wouldn’t circumcise my kids and I think the hygiene arguments are a bit shallow, but this whole issue of sexual sensitivity being lost…….who would you know unless, like me, you can claim experience on both sides of the fence? It makes no difference at all.

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  2. Olivia Callahan

    Circumcision should not be a topic for debate, the evidence supporting it should be enough for the procedure to be made compulsory, i would make it so if i had the power.Its simple and painless for the child and gives soo many benefits, i dont undertsand why some parents chose to leave their sons intact, do you not realise that a foreskin is a useless flap of skin? all it does is cause problems with bacteria and disease as it is very unhygenic. Boys are supposed to be circumcised thats why it has been done for thousands of years. Its a parents choice to do the right thing for their child but their is only one right decision in this case, im circumcision pro all the way

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  3. Werner

    I am circumcised and I believe have been deprieved of sexual sensitivity since my sking has been cut too much. Cleanliness has nothing to do with the procedure, it all comes from a jewish custom to circumcise boys at a ritual. I resent as a non jew to have been subjected to this procedure.

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  4. Karol

    In Latinamerica all baby boys are circumcised and we (women and men) get horrified when we see a man without it. It is totally cultural.

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    • guest

      You know that’s not true – most of Latin America has a very low circumcision rate.

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  5. wedgetail01

    All I want to say is, let parents make their own decisions. No side will convince the other. I am circumcised & like it. Partners I have had have said they prefer it. But I have friends who are uncircumcised & they no issues with their partners. I hate the argument its child abuse…it isn’t. It is simply a parent doing what they think best. Hey I have no idea if my penis is less sensitive than a friends uncircumcised one…just like they can’t say whether theirs is more sensitive. Can we just ignore this debate. There’s pros & cons to both sides….just let parents decide what they want for their child…& everyone else stay out of their business.

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    • cj

      Some parents think it is “best” for their daughters to be circumcised. Are you OK with that? What about the parents who don’t allow their sick children to receive medical attention? Or those who take “spare the rod, spoil the child” literally? Or who don’t allow their daughters to show any more than their eyes in public, and never go out without being escorted by their father or a brother? “Parents know best” or “let parents do what they want” is a pretty flimsy argument, and used to justify some terrible behaviour. “It isn’t child abuse”… cutting off part of your baby’s body isn’t child abuse? Wow, you set the bar pretty low.

      I actually agree that the sensitivity argument seems pretty pointless. But then, since you and I are both circumcised, we don’t know any different – the point is we didn’t get to choose (I’m assuming you were cut as an infant). I don’t think anyone cares if a man – or at least a teen – decides he wants to be circumcised. But what right does anyone have to make the decision for someone else?

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  6. cj

    Nonsense.

    Even if we take all of the supposed benefits at face value, they are all (with the exception of infant urinary tract infections) to do with sexually transmitted disease. How can infant surgery be justified by predicted teen / adult behaviour? Let each boy / man decide for himself when he is able to give informed consent. Anything else, on such a flimsy basis, is absurd.

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  7. Effy

    The vast majority of my sexual partners have been uncircumcised, including my husband, and uncircumcised will win for me every time. I’m currently pregnant, and if its a boy there is no way I’d have him circumcised unless absolutely medically necessary, it’s his body after all. If he wants to get circumcised himself for *shudder* cosmetic reasons after he’s 16, he’s more than welcome to. Otherwise, why in the hell would you? We going to start doing appendectomies at birth too, just in case one develops appendicitis in the future? Give me a break! A happy, healthy, COMPLETE baby is all I want.

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  8. BG

    It’s been nearly 20 years now since my circumcision. I have never regretted that fact and, as a result of this whole debate arising within the last year, have been willing to make that point perfectly clear. Come to think of it, I won’t hesitate to give any sons I will have the very same advantages that I received all that time ago.

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  9. bighairymonster

    The sorry bastard that says there is no adverse affects on sexual disfunction of the circumcised penis better do his homework

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  10. urodoc

    mmm…
    the US has the highest rates of circumcision among OECD countries and… the highest rates of HIV… Denmark has one of the lowest rates of circumcision and one of the lowest rates of penile cancer and heterosexually transmitted HIV (seems the Danes know how to keep their willy’s clean and can remember to use condoms)

    the evidence currently does show a benefit to male circ. in sub-saharan africa where HIV is rife: these areas also have very low rates of condom usage and in some cultures, men believe you can cure aids by having sex with a virgin (of any age apparently)… we can probably achieve a 50% reduction in heterosexual transmission rates by circumcising all boys at birth in those countries… it is likely however, that better rates of control could be achieved by teaching boys and girls why and how to use condoms in primary school – i am sure the religious right have a lot to do with this programme not being enacted across the world

    my concerns are that a huge amount of money is being spent on research to justify a surgical procedure in infancy aimed at altering the outcome of a disease entirely related to future behaviour as an adolescent and adult – namely unprotected sex (it won’t affect IV drug use related acquisition or other means of transmission of many viral illnesses)

    the ethics of this approach aside – it would seem to me, more cost effective and less harmful to little boys (let’s not argue about the small but not insignificant risk of harm from the procedure), to spend more money on prevention by education and behavioural modification; education of girls in muslim countries so they are empowered to take control in male dominated societies; and measures aimed at reducing the religious right’s influence on contraception and sexual behaviour in those countries where scientific ignorance is used at a control measure over the masses.

    If we could do this, there would be no need for circumcision as a routine assault on young boys.

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  11. JB

    Circumcision is just a good idea. It is very safe if done on a young baby and has so many pluses disease protection, cosmetic and better sex. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/surgical-vaccine-helping-stop-hiv/story-e6frg6so-1226098865549

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  12. Bill J

    A poor article. Its gives complete freedom to an organization of doctors who circumcise for a living led by a pro-circumcision fanatic who has said circumcision should be compulsory for all men.
    See http://circleaks.org/index.php?title=Brian_J._Morris

    The “other side” is presented by a pro-circumcision person from the US attempting (badly) to explain what their understanding of Intactivism.

    What adults do to themselves is up to them. Doing unnecessary (and lucrative) “surgery” (if you can call it that) on children is BS.

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  13. yesun

    Pretty nice post. I just stumbled upon your weblog and wished to say that I have truly enjoyed browsing your blog posts. In any case I’ll be subscribing to your feed and I hope you write again soon!

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  14. Ned

    It’s child abuse. It’s violence against a child and if you did it to an adult you’d be charged with assault and grievous bodily harm. How long are these people going to keep pretending that it means nothing to cut off part of another person’s genitals? Time to get conscious.

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  15. Daniel

    As a father expecting my first son, I can confidently state that I will definitely have my son circumcised. Despite the cleanliness factors, my main motivator is my son’s future sexual happiness. Throughout my life I have had about 5 long term girlfriends and many more in between comment on whether I was circumcised or not. I have always been suprised by the relief women have expressed when they see I’m circumcised, most commenting that oral sex As a father expecting my first son, I can confidently state that I will definitely have my son circumcised. Despite the cleanliness factors, my main motivator is my son’s future sexual happiness. Throughout my life I have had about 5 long term girlfriends and many more in between comment on whether I was circumcised or not. I have always been suprised by the relief women have expressed when they see I’m circumcised, most commenting that oral sex would completely be out of the question if I was not. would completely be out of the question if I was not.

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  16. Anonymous

    “The … doctors who still perform circumcision are violating

    the first rule of good medicine — primum non nocere –

    first, do no harm. Few … really understand what they are

    doing when they amputate the foreskin, for they have never

    studied how the penis develops before birth. Since the penis

    is used for procreation only a few times in the entire life

    of the individual, sexual pleasure must also be one of its

    major functions, and the foreskin is an integral part of that

    sexual pleasure.”

    George Denniston, MD,

    University of Washington

    School of Medicine

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  17. Jen

    How can you post this? Its utter rubbish! Why are people so obsessed with cutting baby boys. If its so good wait till the boy is 10 and then tell him what you want to do, I bet hands down every time he would say ‘Leave my penis alone!’. Based on this rubbish idea we should cut all breasts off teen girls lest they get breast cancer and remove all ovaries because lots of women get ovarian cancer yo know. Why not put a decent article up backed one of the hundredes of study that show just how negative circumcision is. No mother has ANY right to think she can say yes to circumcison. A foreskin is health living tisue that serevs a purpose, it protects the glands and is VITAL to normal sexual function. And if your going to promote cutting baby males by this I can asume you are also pro-femal circumcision.

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  18. sydmum

    Professor Morris is not a medical dr, the vast majority of the medical community dismiss routine circumcision as unnecessary and dangerous. More baby boys die in the US each year from the complications of circumcision than from SIDS or car accidents.

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  20. Dkmum

    This is such an interesting debate, not unlike that of vaccinations. While I’m pro vac the thought of circumcision just doesn’t sit right with me even though it seems there isn’t really a medical debate, unlike with vacs.
    I suppose having never come across a circumsised penis it’s one of those things that just seem alien to me.
    It could very well be a bang boy growing in my tummy so something to give serious thought quite soon!!

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  21. interesting

    I think if your thinking of going down the circ decision on your child you
    really need to do your research.
    Plenty of US statistics of how many male babies die or have to have the
    penis removed completely after infection due to circumcision.
    Is it really worth putting your child at risk.I think I would prefer to deal
    with urinary infections for a while rather than have to tell your child it
    was you who caused him to have his penis removed.

    We can also reduce testicular cancer by 50% if we also let the doctors
    take out one testicle now but are we really going to do that.

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  22. Why God?

    Can someone please tell me why God gave us wisdom teeth which routinely get taken out in case of infection….. Aren’t we made perfectly as we are? Mouth mutilation!!!!!

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    • finn

      You got your wisdom teeth removed when you were a baby or minor? So without your consent?

      Sorry, your argument fails big time.

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  23. trixie melodian

    Interesting photos that show the difference circumcision makes to an adult male penis, along with the horrific injuries that are unnecessarily inflicted on newborn boys. NSFW

    http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

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  24. Each To Their Own

    I don’t think this debate will ever be solved, both sides are adamant they are right. I know which side I’m on, I’m in favour of circumcision. I’m happy with my choice on this matter and won’t be changing it. Just like those who believe the opposite.

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    • Anonymous

      What about your sons right to his own body? He never got a say and its his penis, not yours.

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  25. Anon parent

    I had my two boys circumcised when the second was born and my first born at the same time. The choice was an easy one and a great decision. My first born kept getting infections behind the foreskin despite cleaning it. I was impressed by the professionalism of the procedure and the end result. The anticipated trauma of the procedure was much like a vaccination and the aftercare was easy. My older son was 9 at the time & he hasn’t had an infection since. For those who think its too traumatic I think you shouldn’t judge unless you have experienced it. My son is not traumatized and I think some dental procedures are more traumatizing. I honestly think we are too precious at times in modern society and I do believe it reduces the risk of std’s. Less skin folds, less germs! I have two happy and healthy boys and my only regret is not circumcising the older one at birth.

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  26. Anonymous

    I’m a 21 year old male currently debating adult circumcision and have been my entire life, purely from a self conscious perspective. There seems to be a social stigma surrounding men, or penises, that are uncircumcised. That they’re unsightly or are unhygienic, or that uncircumcised men don’t perform as well in bed, and as a young man I guess I’m falling victim to these beliefs.

    However some of these comments are pathetic, seeing mothers getting riled up over who’s done a better job on their sons based on what they personally deem hygienic or “mutilated” or sexually desirable…all for a piece of skin that you’ll probably never see after your son turns 8.

    For what it’s worth I shower three times daily, morning, night and a quick rinse after rugby or the gym. I always retract the skin to clean the head of my penis as I understand I need to pay a little bit more attention to personal hygiene down there. I’ve only ever had intercourse with two women, and was in relationships with both of them, and even when intoxicated I always did right by them (and myself) and wore a condom. I think true parenting comes down to raising an intelligent, respectful, loving, compassionate and faithful man, and not an inch of skin that is really no one’s business but the man it belongs to.

    However it seems to be such a huge deal, and while it would be nice to think it’s what’s on the inside that counts, the fact of the matter is the debate surrounding this inch of skin makes me extremely self conscious in the bedroom, even my mates give me crap for not having random sex with girls and they don’t know why.

    There’s one perspective here that’s being ignored and that’s that young men are also becoming more body conscious. I saw an article on mamamia last week about photoshopped ‘outie’ vaginas, and this is essentially a very similar message being projected to young men of today. “Why doesn’t mine look like that?” That article also asked “and why should anyone care?” Clearly from the comments here many, many woman do. I never had a choice in the matter, no boys do, and I intend to go ahead with the procedure in a few months.

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    • Anonymous

      But how nice you got to make that choice? I had a partner a while ago who was cut as a baby and it was botched, he has never ever experienced normal sexual; function because someone took too much skin. Circumcision should be a mans choice to make, not his mothers.

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  27. A Mother of 2 Sons & 2 Daughters

    Why are we born with the equipment we are born with? Not ok for girls but ok for boys? Like religion, it may come down to an informed choice by our children when they are of age. Maybe that will end the debate!

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  28. Anonymous

    For people who are tempted to compare male and female circumcision, I highly recommend this video on the issue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98f3IavuEgQ

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    • Trog

      I’m one of those. I’m not comparing the physicality of the act, I’m comparing the ethics behind the decision.

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      • B

        The ethics are COMPLETELY different.

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  29. Mooner

    I can’t stop thinking about this article. I feel so angry that these pro-circumcision views are being given airtime.

    I would like everyone to think about the practice in all print media of photoshopping vulvas to ‘heal them to a single crease’ which has been discussed multiple times on this website. It has been resoundingly criticised as creating a completely misleading expectation about what a vulva should look like, which leads to women feeling ashamed of their completely ‘normal’ vulvas which do have visible labia minora.

    If you are anti-photoshopping vulvas then you should be anti-circumcision. Circumcision is the exact equivalent: only it’s PERMANENT and PAINFUL. And from the sound of the Miami New Times article it is likely having identical effects, where men with penises in their normal, natural state are being ridiculed (called ‘anteaters’).

    What does this do to male body image if men with normal genitals are made to feel disgusting, unclean or abnormal? Just as women with normal labia minora are made to feel disgusting, unclean and abnormal by digitally removing visible labia minora in all print media?

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    • B

      My support of circumcision has nothing to do with the look of a penis – like a vagina, they all look slightly different anyway – who cares?
      I support reducing infectious and harmful diseases in any way possible. If there can be up to a 70% reduction in the transmission of these terrible diseases then I’m all for it. Like the polio vaccine, I would hope that it would one day be unnecessary. But if you take a quick look at the statistics for STI infections in Australia and the cost to the taxpayer in treating these, you might change your mind.
      The safe sex message is simply not working. I would LOVE it to work. But until you treat people who have been victims of lies and deceit, taken care of a friend who has caught HIV unawares, who think they are in loving, committed relationships (and aren’t), who make the wrong decision and get too drunk (and based on the statistics there are a LOT of Australians making the incorrect decision when it comes to safe sex), then I support any way at all to lower these risks.
      I think ridiculing the look of a penis is juvenile, ridiculous and lowers the quality of a debate that needs to be had on how to reduce transmission and infection rates theses types of preventable diseases. As does saying that fathers (or mothers) want their boys to ‘look like’ their fathers. This is not the point of the study.
      And ‘cleaning’ does not stop bacteria transmission – it helps, but doesn’t stop it.

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    • Anonymous

      As an uncircumcised man, I’m not surprisingly against circumcision for many of the reasons previously stated in these comments.

      I’m quite confident in using condoms to prevent STIs thank you very much. Washing is not difficult and takes a few extra seconds if that.

      I’ve heard ancillary accounts from circumcised men that circumcision reduces sexual enjoyment through the removal of several thousand nerve endings and through a differing sexual action that changes without the use of the foreskin. I’m certainly not willing to go through the procedure myself to prove this, but the theory is sound.

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      • How?

        How can you tell that they feel less sensation?
        If they never knew what it felt like before they were circumcised, how can they know if they are missing out. They can’t compare unless they had an orgasm before they had the snip.
        Who knows what other people’s orgasms feel like? An orgasm is an orgasm.

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  30. Anonymous

    This issue has been examined in great detail by the Royal Australasian College of Physicians, the peak organisation which trains all of Australia and New Zealand’s paediatricians and public health physicians. It has reviewed its policy on routine neonatal circumcision in the past couple of years, based on recent evidence.

    TO quote its policy:
    “After reviewing the currently available evidence, the RACP believes that the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision, the level of protection offered by circumcision and the complication rates of circumcision do not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand. However it is reasonable for parents to weigh the benefits and risks of circumcision and to make the decision whether or not to circumcise their sons.”

    The evidence shows that while there may be benefit in African countries with high HIV prevalence of circumcising adult males, it is very hard to extrapolate that information to make the case for routine neonatal circumcision in a country where the HIV prevalence is low (like AUstralia). One would need to circumcise 111 infant boys to prevent one case of urinary tract infection, the vast majority of which have no long-term consequence. The data to recommending performing routine neonatal circumcision is simply not defensible in our first-world context. Ultimately, it becomes a decision for parents, who deserve to be well informed by the health system around it, rather than by polarised or biased articles.

    I’d like to echo a previous person’s comment to have someone write a more balanced article on this issue, with the evidence laid out clear for families in which they can understand, so they can in fact make an informed decision about what they want to do. And I haven’t even referred to the issues of neonatal pain, or human rights of children, which are also very contentious in this very controversial topic.

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  31. Melissa

    Female genital circumcision is illegal here in Australia, I don’t see why we still allow our newborn boys to be hurt? And I’m not referring to medically required surgery.

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    • B

      Because it’s completely, completely different. Suggesting that they are one and the same is to have very little knowledge of the issues at hand.

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      • Melissa

        No it really is not different. Removing the healthy part of a persons genitals without their approval is one in the same.

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      • Anonymous

        Female circumcision doesn’t always refer to the removal of the entire clitoris. Often it is just the clitoral hood which would equate quite well with foreskin removal. There is a UN report outlining the wide variety of procedures which are combined under ‘Female circumcision’.

        That said, I really don’t believe in removing healthy parts of anyone’s genitals except for more dire reasons than the arguments made by the CFA.

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        • Anonymous

          No your right, there are in fact 11 different types of male circumcision all of whioch are legal and there are 3 for female, all illegaWhy is that? Its all forced tissue removal without consent.

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  32. Yvette Vignando

    Hi Rick – I feel pretty uncomfortable with this headline. It implies that a “policy” of circumcision of boys is going to be the best thing for our boys – and being an Australian website, it implies that circumcision is the best policy for boys in Australia – it sounds like an endorsement. I would feel slightly less squirmish if the headline said “Scientific Literature Review Indicates Some Medical Grounds for Circumcision” – maybe not headline material but something similar to this would be more accurate wouldn’t it?

    I have not done the research online or offline but I am fairly certain that there are opposing studies indicating that the risks (albeit smallish in a clean hospital) associated with surgery on young boys, outweigh the other risks summarised in this article – in the developed world in particular? And should we also be considering the psychological trauma associated with surgery – especially here in Australia where, as far as I know (and I stand to be corrected), there is little or no quantitative evidence that circumcised boys fair better healthwise than uncircumcised boys? I don’t know the answer to this but the information from this literature review has not reassured me to the extent that the headline suggests it should.

    I would love to see a piece on here that expands the information provided – because it’s a pretty big decision for many people to have their baby boy or young boy undergo surgery and anaesthesia (minor or major) – yet this headline, and the inference from the article – suggests it may not be “best” if such a decision is not made (excuse all the double negatives.)

    And if there are risks associated with surgery and anaesthesia, would we be better investing all the dollars that it would cost the public purse for mass circumcisions, in educating boys and girls about safe sex and hygiene for example? This may not be possible in the developing world, but it’s certainly possible here.

    Look forward to your thoughts Rick and/or more information on the other research in this area.
    P.S. And reading the comment by Dr Rod McClymont below , who is obviously eminently more qualified than I am to comment, I think it would be fabulous if Mamamia asked him and his colleagues to write their point of view – because this article left as it is, risks being too one-sided and perhaps not giving parents of young babies all the information they need to make the right decision for them.

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    • Rick Morton

      We change our headlines pretty regularly on posts Yvette, this one had already changed when you left the comment! This is just one round-up of the debate, from policy paper which references many of the same studies others interpret differently. Like I pointed out, it certainly isn’t the be-all and end-all and comes from a professed advocate. I liked Rod’s comment too. Very valuable addition to the discussion. Maybe one day down the track we’ll cover the subject again.

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      • Anonymous

        This is not a round up, you put this out there for ratings. I worry about the people who do read this and will decide that yup I will go ahead and chop up my sons penis, it will be good for him. You say nothing about how only light sedative is used, that he will be in pain, that he will never experience normal sexual function. You are supporting an idea that parents havce the right to mutilate baby boys, I weep with fear for these male children, after all I am married to a man who had too much removed as a baby and has NEVER had normal sexual function. We have 4 sons ALL intact as we love them enough to keep them WHIOLE!

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  33. Soon to be mum

    How many mums of girls get their ears pierced while they are toddlers?

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    • Anonymous

      a.) quite a few, it seems;
      b.) exclusively bogans, it seems;
      c.) it has nothing to do with attempting to avoid future health complications in the child. Rather, it’s a culturally specific beauty practice (which seems cruel and out of place on a toddler – why are you trying to make your toddler more ‘attractive’?)
      d.) it therefore has nothing at all to do with the circumcisn debate in this context (which is that it’s allegedly medically recommended)

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  34. Seen it all...

    Some advice from a woman who has… ahem… seen a fair few of both….You guys who think that getting it up, getting it in there and then bangin’ away for the next 10-30 minutes is great for us are sadly misguided… yeah, that bit is fun and all but it’s rarely the best way to make a woman orgasm… what’s important is what happens before penetration, that’s where I get my kicks – and after that I actually prefer for the rest to be over sooner rather than later.

    I find that uncircumcised blokes do come a lot more quickly… and most of them also “compensate” for this by being more attentive beforehand, it’s a win-win and my preference by far.

    How many of you ladies out there have orgasmed (or not!) and then had to lie back and wait (or climb on top and work!) until they *finally* come…? Ugh! There’s nothing worse.

    Uncut for the win.

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    • Anonymous

      Shame on you, how about you get you vagina cut to look neater i mean maybe all those cut guys would prefer something a little nicer?….. Its that same thing you want in them after all.

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      • Fi

        Rude. She also said she preferred uncircumcised which makes your comment also incorrect.

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    • Morgan

      what utter stupidity a lot of cut guys pay more attention to their women too
      so your comments are just so biased.

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  35. Nixelle

    All of you saying boys should be circumcised for health reasons, then Women should cut their breasts off in case they get breast cancer.

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    • Anonymous

      Umm they are COMPLETELY different levels of operations. Way to completely diminish and trivialise the experience of women who’ve had masectomies, Nixelle!!

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  36. suze

    Everyone who says their son/husband whoever ‘had to be circumcised’ at some stage in childhood – medical recommendations change with time. When I was a kid, many many children had their tonsils out. Today, hardly anyone does. I would think that very few of these ‘medical circumcisions’ were strictly necessary.
    When my son was three, we had to take him to emergency with an infection under his foreskin. He was put on antibiotics. The urology specialist told us that only if he got recurrent infections we might consider circumcision. He never got another infection. I’m so glad we didn’t get a specialist who overreacted and recommended circumcision then and there.
    The foreskin infection followed several other low-grade problems such as a very bad cold, conjunctivitis, a long-haul flight, etc. My son was run down. It wasn’t a problem of his foreskin at all. Once he regained his robust health, he was fine.

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  37. mama of boys

    when I look at my darling little boys in the bath and their “wee wees” I feel so glad that they are intact. They just seem perfect the way they were born.

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  38. happyface

    I would be interested to know the statistics on how many men/ boys are currently circumcised to those that aren’t- does anyone know?
    I had no idea that it was so common here.

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    • Nora

      It’s not anymore, only around 5% of boys are circumcised now. So I’ve read from various sources anyway!

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      • Nora

        Sorry that’s in Victoria, I think NSW and Queensland are around 15%.

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        • Bill J

          Its about 13% in Australia for under 6 month olds, though it varies from state to state, from less than 2% up to about 18%.

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  39. Trog

    OK, owner of a cut one.

    I think ethically, this is a no-brainer. Boys are born with an intact body and should have the choice as to whether they amputate a small piece of it or not. Pro (abortion) choice advocates should find it difficult to reason against this.

    I think that had I kept my foreskin and were faced later in life with the decision then I would choose the maintenance option over the excision. I’d approach that decision similarly to the way I would a tonsillectomy. I’d probably

    I find the discussion on circumcision and women’s sexual pleasure a little repugnant. Please put the shoe on the other foot. If I were proposing to put breast implants in a newborn baby girl or have her vagina surgically tightened in order to enhance male sexual pleasure then I’d be hung, drawn and quartered.

    A few factors complicate the ethical reason to not circumcise. Hygiene, convenience, peer comparison in the change room…….the fact that it makes them look so much bigger. ;)

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    • halliday

      Oh get real. Every single piece of communication regarding sex is aimed at making a man feel that a woman will ‘feel and look’ better with certain body features. EVERYTHING. When a woman tells you that one type feels different to another, it’s not to be gratuitous, it’s describing an experience.

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      • Trog

        Halliday, not sure I’ve got your gist, but I’m not concerned whether MY circumcision is more or less pleasurable in the sack. Jury seems to be out anyway. I think that women will often just speak out in defense of their current man’s penile status.

        The point that I was trying to make is that a future sexual partners’ pleasure would not play into my decision to circumcise at all. It is really his decision on how far he is prepared to go to please a lover.

        Here’s a commenter’s quote that began the conversation that I found questionable.

        ‘A cock looks and feel a million times better when it has been circumcised. Like an adult with ears sticking out – yeah sure your born that way but god u would look better with them pulled back.

        I am I the only one putting this argument forward as this alone was probably the one of the major factors I got my boys willy done.’

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        • Trog

          This should have read:

          ‘ a future sexual partners’ pleasure would not play into my decision to circumcise my son at all. It is really his decision on how far he is prepared to go to please a lover.’

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    • Anonymous

      Thank you for speaking out. My husband is cut and his went very wrong. He is too ashamed to speak out and sayd that its just not something blokes can do. And that is the problem, we don’t know how many men suffer in silence as its not as though our society encourages men to share much, let alone anything to do with something so private as their penis and sexual function. This is why it needs to be made illegal.

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  40. Saz

    I’m not pro- or anti-circumcision (it’s not yet become relevant to my life), but what bothers me is that I’m not seeing any discussion about WHY being circumcised supposedly reduces the risk of disease. What is it about a foreskin that makes a man more susceptible to herpes? Why is this not being questioned?

    Also, I wonder how much cultural practices were considered in these studies. e.g. A good Muslim boy is less likely to sleep around, and therefore less likely to contract a disease (this is obviously just an example, not something I’m claiming to be unequivocably true).

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  41. Jess

    If I ever have a baby boy I will not get this done. Imagine if the roles were reversed and some part of the labia was cut off for ‘hygiene reasons’. People (and feminists!) would be outraged.

    Modifying your babies penises is barbaric in my opinion. Let them decide themselves when they are able to.

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  42. halliday

    This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Almost all of the arguments for circumcision could be managed by good hygiene and health practices. The incidence of difficulties with foreskin is relatively rare, UTIs are a direct result of poor hygiene (and hello, girls aren’t immune to these, is anyone suggesting cutting off a body part to diminish the incidence?) and STDs and HIV are avoidable with good sexual health practice. Why is chopping off a piece of the penis the answer to something that men should be doing anyway?

    From the female point of view…from my experience…sleeping with a circumcised man over a non-circumcised man is a world apart. Just sayin….

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    • bedlam

      I completely agree, halliday!
      My mum taught my younger brother from the outset how to keep his foreskin clean, and apart from an unfortunate accident while nudie swimming and playing with a boogie board (another story :) , he has never had an issue.
      And the one partner I’ve had who was a ‘hooded warrior’…oh my goodness…the orgasms!

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    • halliday

      I think we also need to get a grip. If being left the way nature created was so ‘unhealthy’ the human race would never have survived. Natural attrition took those that didn’t think hygiene was important…

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  43. darren.m

    I’ve heard a lot of discussions about these new anti-online-piracy organizations as ACTA, SOPA, and PIPA. I’m just wondering, why does everyone think its so bad? I mean; its just to prevent people from doing something illegal and from being thieves. I also see a lot of exaggeration when it comes to the punishment. Rumors, saying that you can get 50 years of prison for sharing files, that is not true! Also, as far a i know, its only the person sharing the files who will get punished, not the streamer/downloader, even though that’s illegal too and you could get punished for that as well.
    Why does everyone think that its OK to steal on the internet, when they would never even think about stealing from a store? In theory is the same action being done.

    Do you think its OK to steal from the internet?
    Dont you feel sorry for the people who are loosing a lot of money from your stealing? (No, not just a little bit, A LOT!)

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  44. Michelle

    I am going to add that your headline “Evidence based policy says it’s best” is a pretty big call bordering on irresponsible. The headline is a dream come true for the pro-circumcision lobby group that you quote without challenge in the piece.

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    • Twisted appraisal of literature

      I completely agree – it is irresponsible of social media to publish such misleading headlines – we have all seen what happens when medical literature is misinterpreted or insufficiently appraised (i.e. the anti-vaccination palaver).

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      • B

        How? This was a review of literature and other peer-reviewed studies which states that circumcision is best at lowering rates of transmissible diseases. This is *not* an incorrect finding.

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        • Other

          perhaps because the majority of studies that would have been used are based on studies in Africa – where there are very different cultural, hygiene and gender standards. Researchers love to try and transfer information from one culture to another; unfortuantely, Australia is hugely different to Africa

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  45. Michelle

    We all know that scientific evidence is open to debate and interpretation. The only scientist you quote in the article is somebody from a pro-circumcision lobby group.
    For balance, why not also include the views of a scientist with a different or more nuanced view on the issue – they may read the same studies differently or say that circumcision is recommended in certain regions of the world where there are particular health risks and so on.
    I appreciate that you included the perspective of the intactivists BUT they do not address head on the scientific research so can be easily dismissed.
    For the record, I have not circumcised my sons and we have had zero issues.

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    • B

      ‘We all know that scientific evidence is open to debate and interpretation’. Oh good – let’s tell that to the anti-vax people hey?!!

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      • Michelle

        You missed my point. Or maybe you didn’t? The “evidence” the article relies on is put forward as fact when it is highly contested by other respected medical authorities. I would argue that the argument put forward in this piece is on par with the anti-vax crowd.

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        • B

          Are you serious? How many journals that are respected by the medical community do you want these kinds of articles to appear in? A simple search reveals lots of them. Perhaps we shouldn’t trust anything that appears in a medical journal then.

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  46. LaurenHC

    Uncircumcised penises are so much more fun to play with.

    Just thought I’d put it out there.

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    • LellaK

      Haha we call it his ‘sleeping bag’, putting it yo bed each evening is quite fun. lol

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  47. Fully informed

    I looked into this when my son was born. I watched a video of the actual operation, which is usually performed under local anaesthetic, usually without a parent present. The local anaesthetic does nothing to calm a baby who is strapped to a table and touched/operated on by a total stranger. There is no way I could put my child through it.

    However, for anyone who is seriously thinking about circumcising your newborn, ask yourself if you’ll stay in the room and be there to comfort your child. If you can’t deal with it, is it really something your child should have to deal with?

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  48. snoozy mum

    Um… just wondering… what on earth possessed the first person who ever circumsized a boy child? like… hello? here’s a piece of skin here I might get rid of?

    Yup, I’m a mum of an uncut four year old whose dad was cut as per 1970s tradition.

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  49. Yeah!

    Put it this way… if circumcision was so bad, men would have been up in arms about it ages ago and it would have been outlawed.

    All the circumcised men I know think they’re superior to the uncircumcised men (or, at the very least, are indifferent about it). They think their tackle is cleaner, prettier and women like it more. They don’t complain of a lack of sensitivity or lack of control or weep for their foreskin. And, of course, they don’t remember being circumcised – so there’s no trauma.

    If my partner felt passionately against it, I wouldn’t circumcise my sons. But if the decision was left up to me, I would for a number or reasons. Either way, I honestly don’t think it matters that much.

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    • Dee of Adelaide

      My big fella wishes he wasn’t done. He wants to know what MORE penis would be like lol.

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      • Yeah!

        It’s not more penis, though – it’s only more skin.

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    • Trog

      Not so sure that this is true. Don’t forget, most circumcisions are performed on newborns. I know that this is not necessarily the case with Jewish circumcisions.

      Either way, there is no choice in the matter as the boy is too young to make or communicate the decision.

      It happens at such a young age that I’ve never given the alternative any thought.

      If I wanted rights in this decision, I’ve never had a chance to exert them and there’s no going back. Not that cool if you think about it.

      As it turns out, I don’t regret having a helmet. I like the low maintenance.

      If the Madonna thing is true, I don’t care about religious sensibilities, it’s not a gesture of love to ask your adult husband to mutilate his genitalia.

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      • dw

        Trog Jewish circumcisions are performed when the baby is 8 days old – still a newborn.

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    • Anonymous

      Do women really like it more…? From my experience with both I would say I prefer them uncut in the bedroom…..

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  50. Mel b

    I know I should be open minded but reading this just makes me mad – MAD!
    I have three boys, no one and I mean no one recommended it. I spoke to a few people and they said ‘oh no we dont do that any more’. Een mums at the time having biys also were like NO! I couldn’t even imagine sending them off to cut off any part of them, that I mean choosing, if there was no choice you wouldn’t thinkanyhthing different! So for this conversation to still exist I really have no idea, but I thought we sorted it out! When I heard my brother in law had their son done, we were shocked! Just seems so out dated. But what do I know I’m a girl!!

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