There isn’t enough room in this newspaper to list all the things I don’t know. There’s not even enough room in Wikipedia which – if if were an actual book – would take you 123 years to read.
Recently though, there’s been an explosion of people with a wildly inflated sense of their own intelligence. Suddenly, everyone’s an expert.
Me, not so much. I understand how little I know about lots of things. For example, I know less about science than scientists. I know less about medicine than doctors. I know less about tax than my accountant, less about cooking than Donna Hay and less about animals than Bondi Vet.
There’s no shortage of genuine experts who have degrees, qualifications and years of experience in their fields. Having access to Google does not make you an expert, nor does having a website or watching a youtube video. These things simply make you someone with an Internet connection.
“Everyone’s an expert today,” confirms social researcher Neer Korn “partly because we feel we need to be. We receive kudos for proclaiming our definitive knowledge to others and we compete to be the first to share facts, articles and videos.”
But reading some articles doesn’t put you on par with a scientist and here’s where it can become dangerous.
A few years ago, I worked with a lovely guy who had left school at 16. When his wife had their first child, he ‘did his research’ and they decided not to vaccinate their daughter. At the time, everyone around him insisted it was safe (and vital) but he was adamant. “I’ve read a lot about this and I watched this amazing video,” he insisted, “Vaccinations are just a way for big companies and the government to make money”.
Where do you start arguing the extreme illogic of that? Not here; I’d need more space and a wheelie bin full of rescue remedy. Because while I accept my former co-worker was a thoughtful person who meant well, I’m floored by the extraordinary assumption that he knew better than every scientist in the world – not to mention Bill and Melinda Gates who are spending hundreds of millions of their own dollars funding vaccination programs in third world countries to eradicate killer diseases like malaria.
What on earth could make a civilian believe his Google ‘research’ is superior to decades of science? Is it arrogance?
“The Internet has made expertise a mouse click away,” says Neer Korn. “And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Just ask any GP who has to contend with self-diagnosing patients, determined they can identify their prognosis and treatment. They address them more as colleagues than patients, because they place their Internet search on par with the doctor’s years of expertise.”
Doctors really do live this every day. Says one of my friends who is a medical specialist: “You find yourself getting into these exhausting debates with patients who insist they’ve read something that goes against what you’re telling them. Unless you’re highly experienced, it can be extremely difficult to judge the credibility of the information you find online.”
Which brings me to the farcically named Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) which, despite its official-sounding name, is in fact a group of civilian self-styled ‘experts’ who campaign vigorously and at times misleadingly (according to findings by the HCCC) against vaccination both on their website and in the free talks they give around Australia, sometimes to expectant parents at pre-natal classes.
While publicly pedaling its anti-vaccination message, the AVN cleverly make it sound like there are ‘two sides’ to the vaccination debate. In fact there aren’t two sides and there is no debate. On one hand there is science and there is no other hand.
Because no link between vaccination and autism has ever been found. None. Ever. What has been conclusively proven is that while they are not 100% perfect, vaccines are the best and only way to protect babies and children from diseases like whooping cough that can kill them.
And the personal choice argument? Well, it’s a bit like arguing that driving your car drunk is a personal choice. You see, the lives of babies too young to be vaccinated depend on herd immunity in the rest of the community. So the choice made by that man I worked with didn’t just affect his family. His well-intentioned yet ill-informed decision has the potential to harm my family. And yours.
Watching (or even producing!) a Youtube video with some cherry-picked statistics set to rousing orchestral music is not the same as having a university degree or having your research findings peer reviewed.
I’m baffled by this growing sense that everyone has the right – indeed the obligation – to challenge facts that have been established scientifically, independently and repeatedly over years, even decades.
“Do your research!” is the common faux clarion call of these so-called ‘experts’. These exhortations are usually accompanied by a helpful list of links to similarly skewed, scientifically baseless articles that back up their claims. It’s easy to mislead people with random graphs and alarmist statements.
I’m certainly not suggesting we become a flock of sheep or suspend critical thought. But I don’t need to ‘do my research’ before I vaccinate. Or before I accept that the earth is round and that gravity exists. Scientists far smarter than me have already done that research and the verdict is unanimous, thanks.
Have you run into any Google experts in your life? Or maybe you’re one yourself?
Please take time to read (and share) this link – 9 vaccination myths busted. With science






Comments
1,122 Comments so far
Nice video, i agree with it.
One thing though, he’s talking about the vaccination thing, but how about talking about something else, like for example ADHD or tonsils.
About 40 years ago, all experts agreed that they should just be taken out and in fact, many people over 35 DO have the taken out.
But most people under the age of 30 don’t, because the experts were wrong.
So you see, it is possible for experts to be wrong, after all, all they have to go on, is theories that work within the confines of our current collective knowledge.
New theories arrise and new methods of testing come along and all the sudden many things change.
What i’d like to point out, is that this change is all to often resisted and perhaps THAT is what we should really change in our society.
And of course, there’s always gonna be idiots making idiot claims, i don’t think we should worry about that at all.
loading...
Another thing is that when evaluating a good on the internet electronics retail outlet, look for online stores that are continuously updated, retaining up-to-date with the hottest products, the very best deals, plus helpful information on goods and services. This will make certain you are dealing with a shop that stays over the competition and provide you what you need to make knowledgeable, well-informed electronics purchases. Thanks for the vital tips I’ve learned through the blog.
loading...
Oh, perhaps Thalidomide is still ok? Or should we revert to 50 years ago when doctors were promoting smoking as a positive thing? How about leeches and bloodletting?
We should just go back to our flat earth that the sun revolves around lest we be stoned or hanged for objecting to mainstream thinking.
loading...
I and my pals were following the excellent strategies found on your site then unexpectedly developed an awful suspicion I had not thanked the web blog owner for them. Those young boys became warmed to study all of them and have in effect clearly been enjoying those things. Thank you for turning out to be very thoughtful and also for deciding on this form of wonderful information millions of individuals are really desperate to be informed on. Our own honest regret for not expressing appreciation to sooner.
loading...
‘I Can Jump Puddles’ by Alan Marshall. 1955
Google it…Read it…
Then please, please, consider protecting your child, and others’ children, and mine, from preventable disease.
We are grownups. That’s our job.
Nice article, Mia
loading...
I find it very ignorant of you to assume people only use google or Internet based forums, articles or utube videos as their research. The current whooping cough epidemic is not because people are choosing not to vaccinate, it is because the vaccination is simply not as effective as it used to be, as the virus is mutating into different strains. My kids are prime examples of this they both had it and suffered, however they will never in their life get it again. So it is not that the people who dont vaccinate thier children think they know more than scientists . Vaccinations are just one size fits all everyone’s and my kids are proof of that.
loading...
Your point is what, exactly?
P.S.
Pertussis is not a virus it is a bacterium.
If it mutates as you say, far from never getting it again in their lives, your children still be just as susceptible as anyone else to becoming infected with a mutated strain. Unless they get vaccinated with the vaccines developed with the newer strains in mind.
loading...
I have had a number of problems which I’ve seen drs and physios etc for, but not until I googled (in one case I had pain for over a year) did I work out what I had and then went to the dr with my findings and started to get treatment, my gp still says that she doesn’t really know much about my condition and is happy to refer me or treat me according to my own research, with out google I’d be crippled for good by now and would have no idea why.
loading...
Warning: April Fool post below!
loading...
Did you look at the comments in the link? Special, huh?
loading...
Yes – the anti-scientists don’t seem to do irony well.
Then there is Ms Dorey’s comment: “If only everyone who so blithely sings the ‘vaccines are perfectly safe’ song had to take them themselves.” Well, I’ve never met ANYONE (and I doubt Ms Dorey has met anyone) who says that any medication is “perfectly safe”. But I have met a lot of healthy vaccinated people.
loading...
Yeah I don’t get that either – they seem to labour under the misapprehension that we are all perfectly healthy unvaxed people lining our kids up to get them injected with all teh ebil poizuns but we wouldn’t do it ourselves. I don’t get it at all.
loading...
LULZ from April 1. http://therefusers.com/refusers-newsroom/dr-paul-offit-is-admitted-to-philadelphia-hospital-after-taking-100000-vaccines-reuters-health/
I haven’t copied the comments but they’re special.
Dr. Paul Offit is admitted to Philadelphia hospital after taking 100,000 vaccines – Reuters Health
Posted on April 1, 2012 by The Refusers
April 1, 2012
Reuters Health
Responding to a public challenge by neurosurgeon Dr. Russell Blaylock to take the same vaccines that he recommends for others, Dr. Paul Offit had 100,000 vaccines injected by his wife, pediatrician Dr. Bonnie Offit. In a statement before the 24-hour injection session, Dr. Paul Offit said: ‘As I stated in the October 2005, Parents Pack Newsletter from the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia: My studies show “healthy infants could safely get up to 100,000 vaccines at once” and I intend to demonstrate this to debunk the false prophets of a vaccine/autism link once and for all.’
Dr. Offit received 38 injections per square inch of his body in the marathon vaccine injection session. He developed convulsions and was admitted to Philadelphia Children’s Hospital with severe cases of atypical measles, chickenpox, pertussis, pneumonia, rotavirus and encephalitis. This hospital issued a statement saying that Dr. Offit was probably faking his symptoms, because scientific studies show that vaccines have been proven to be 100% safe and effective and never cause adverse reactions.
A spokesman for Merck (which made 99,999 of the 100,000 vaccines) said: ‘Sometimes neurological diseases occur in a random temporal association with vaccination. Correlation is not causation. No one should know this better than Dr. Offit and we refuse to take responsibility for his health problems. If he erroneously believes that vaccines have caused his illnesses, he should apply to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) for relief. The NVICP was created expressly to protect innocent vaccine manufacturers like us from frivolous lawsuits by so-called vaccine adverse reaction victims.’
The Chief Special Master of the NVICP kangaroo court issued a statement saying: ‘Unfortunately, Dr. Offit’s symptoms are not covered under our program. There is absolutely no scientific evidence showing that vaccines can cause the diseases they were designed to prevent. Dr. Offit is mistaken if he believes that he can milk the system with his phony vaccine injury claims. Anyway, the money obtained through vaccine taxes in the NVICP program has already been spent by the US government as part of the general budget, so we couldn’t pay Offit even if we wanted to. Why do you think we reject so many claims anyway?’
From his hospital bed, Dr. Offit gave this response: ‘Now I understand how vaccines are injuring children and adults. I promise to work to correct the great injustice that I have personally inflicted on innocent vaccine victims. If I ever recover from this paralytic neurological damage caused by vaccination, I will work tirelessly to ensure that such a thing never happens to another innocent child.’
loading...
So Mia says “a lttle knowledge is dangerous”. In Mia’s case no knowledge is naive. Vaccinations have never proven aginst alternatives,but who needs scientific proof when we have very rubbery statistics and Mia advising us not to think.
loading...
Mia’s views are based on the statistics supported by the entire legitimate scientific and medical community, statistics achieved through the correct methodology and analysed by qualified experts with years of study and research under their belt.
As a scientist, the only rubbery statistics I’ve seen are those mindlessly regurgitated from dodgy sources by the anti-vax brigade.
from “Dear Antivaxxer: This is why I do not care for you”
“Can you envision a position that is more arrogant than one that is held by a person with no degree in any field of biological sciences and yet goes against 99.99% of the healthcare community? Do you truly believe that you know something that hundreds of thousands of scientists, physicians, nurses, and public health practitioners don’t? If so, how can you even function each day? ”
http://skeweddistribution.com/2012/03/26/dear-antivaxxer-this-is-why-i-do-not-care-for-you/
loading...
Out of interest, what are your thoughts on global warming, and smoking causing cancer? Both topics that “hundreds of thousands of scientists” argued against vocally for years despite the overwhelming evidence.
No profession has 100% agreement on controversial topics, and there are plenty of scientists and medical professionals who do not think the current immunisation schedule is perfect – but to speak out is to be vilified as is happening here.
loading...
Hi Mia,
Would you consider watching this youtube video which shines a light on alot of the flaws regarding the science of vaccines? It is well made & highly informative. I think everyone should watch it & then make up their minds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnxAsrAK2hw&feature=fvwrel
loading...
This is a “need something to blame” fantasy by parents distressed by their kid’s autism. Nothing more.
loading...
Are you serious? You obviously haven’t watched the film.
It’s not just about Autism. These are real people with real stories & most of these stories claim to have seen dramatic side effects within hours of receiving a vaccine. If it was your child would you just shut your mouth & blame no-one if they were convulsing & frothing at the mouth after having a vaccine?
Your point is not valid.
loading...
How could something on a YouTube Video negate all the evidence about the effectiveness of vaccines. Paediatricians and neonatal ICU nurses and doctors – the same ones who battle to keep very sick babies alive, recommend and use vaccination. Do you really thinnk they are all wrong?
loading...
Sue, if you had done any independant research of your own, you will find that there are also many scientists, paed’s, doctors & nurses arguing the effectiveness and safety of vaccines. Read the books, watch the documentaries & you too will see. Vaccines also harm, I have seen it with my own eyes.
loading...
Your use of the word “many” is dubious. As a proportion of all medical professionals the number is minuscule.
loading...
Rohan,
I find it interesting that you choose to criticise my use of the word ‘many’ as opposed to the evidence put forward in these documentaries.
Maybe you could apply your awesome critical thinking skills to the overwhelming evidence that has been documented time & time again supporting the idea that vaccines are ineffective & unsafe.
There wouldn’t be so much opposition if vaccines were completely safe, but they are not entirely & if your child was part of the vaccine injured ‘minority’ you’d be pissed & wanting answers. Maybe you are just paid by the vaccine companies to get on here & slam any opposing thought. Looks like it to me.
Two words ‘Saba Button’!
loading...
“Concerned Mum”, the volume of scientific evidence on the effectiveness and relative safety of vaccines is enormous. Have you not read any of it? One would wonder whether you have really done any “research”.
And, of course, there is no part of life that is completely risk-free. The so-called “injured minority” are a very tiny minority, as opposed to the huge amount of illness and suffering spared by vaccines.
And regarding the sad story of Saba Button – two words – febrile convulsion. This poor child had a very long seizure from a fever caused by a vaccine. While it is indeed tragic, many many more febrile convulsions are caused by infectious diseases than by vaccines.
On the contrary, “Concerned Mum”, I have worked in health care for almost thirty years, performed real research, and met hundreds if not thousands of nurses and doctors, and not met a single one who is questioning vaccine effectiveness.
Like Mia says, I don’t need to do the type of “independent research” you talk about (ie googling) because I am trained in the health sciences and work in health care. I don’t get my information from opinion sites and lobby groups on the net – I read the actual science, and consult the nmedical sub-scecialists who spend their lives in the area.
Again I ask – what makes you think that highly skilled neonatal ICU nurses and doctors don’t know more than you do about vaccinating newborns? Do you think they are misled, or just not very bright?
loading...
“Sue, if you had done any independant research of your own, you will find that there are also many scientists, paed’s, doctors & nurses arguing the effectiveness….”
On the contrary, “Concerned Mum”, I have worked in health care for almost thirty years, performed real research, and met hundreds if not thousands of nurses and doctors, and not met a single one who is questioning vaccine effectiveness.
Like Mia says, I don’t need to do the type of “independent research” you talk about (ie googling) because I am trained in the health sciences and work in health care. I don’t get my information from opinion sites and lobby groups on the net – I read the actual science, and consult the nmedical sub-scecialists who spend their lives in the area.
Again I ask – what makes you think that highly skilled neonatal ICU nurses and doctors don’t know more than you do about vaccinating newborns? Do you think they are misled, or just not very bright?
loading...
Not very bright? No. Misled? Maybe. I have met doctors & nurses who do not subscribe to the same belief as you, but they don’t go around announcing it to everyone, just one reason why you may not have ‘met’ them.
I realise I’m not a ‘medical professional’ but it doesn’t mean I shouldn’t have a voice & just for the record I don’t source all my information from opinion sites & lobby groups.
If vaccines were the holy grail of modern day health then why is it still gaining so much oppostion? Is it because the public have been sold on the lie that vaccines provide immunity when it clearly doesn’t? (As seen every year in whooping cough). Stimulating the creation of antibodies hasn’t been proven to provide immunity.
Is it that the rate of vaccine injury seems to be rising? The CDC reporting data for adverse reactions is in the tens of thousands! I’m sure tens of thousands go unreported if not more. (I can’t find the Australian data).
Is it that historical data shows that there was a massive decline in disease prior to the introduction of vaccines even though vaccines are touted as the saviour of humanity?
Or is it that new reports out of the U.S. state that Autism is now 1 in 88. It has been proven in the U.S court system that vaccines HAVE caused Autism & have paid families compensation for it. Why are we still questioning this?????????
Perhaps it’s the billions of dollars vaccine companies stand to lose.
I could go on & on……
Science does not always get it right. Look what happened in the case of Thalidomide!
New evidence coming out of Harvard medical school is debunking the myth that antibodies are needed to fight disease. Science is always changing, pity our attitudes aren’t.
I will never accept that it’s ok to harm some in order to save some. Most families of seriously vaccine injured children have to live with the tragic consequences their whole lives, with no hope of compensation in this country. This is unconscionable, wouldn’t you agree?
One more thing, if pro-vaxers were so sure that they were immune once vaccinated, then I can’t understand why they treat the non-vaxers with so much contempt. What’s this all about?? Surely we should all have the right to choose. I choose health, the natural way.
Over & out.
loading...
“Concerned Mum”, you provide all the old anti-vax arguments. We have heard them all before. You are not getting these from the scientific research, because they are not supported by the scientific research.
I’m sure you already know that vaccination rates need to be high to protect those who don’t seroconvert – either due to their own immunity or some other disease. That “why would you worry about what we do?” question is work-out and tired.
And NICU doctors are misled? DO you really believe that? SO they are really good at everything else they do, but just not vaccination? That’s just nonsense.
Yes – mortality from some infectious diseases was falling due to better health care prior to vaccination, but the incidence of things like paralysis from polio did not fall to close to zero until vaccine. DId you know that HiB has been vitually eliminated in Australia since the 1980′s? What changes in hygiene and nutrition have happened in Australia since the 1980′s? And noy rotavirus vaccine will save many babies with dehydration having to go to hospital for IV drips. They rarely die in AUstralian because we have access to modern medicine – but in the developing world they certainly die of dehydration.
loading...
What does it being well made have to do with anything? I could make a well made video and fill it with emotive lies and claim it’s informative. It’s really not hard to do.
Why is “well made” a signifier of something being credible? Titanic is a well made movie, doesn’t make it good or credible.
loading...
Ignorance is easy. Watch the film.
loading...
I have watched the film. It’s a load of anti-vax crap and lies. What do you say to my other points?
Or as a believer do you expect everyone to watch and nod sagely in agreement?
loading...
Why are people not listening? This is a human rights issue & we should all have the ability to choose without being ridiculed. Some food for thought in this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4XWkGcMr2M&feature=related
loading...
In scientific knowledge terms, Cherie, you’re a little kid trying to go toe-to-toe with grown-ups. You’ve been comprehensively trounced and you don’t even realise. You should either go away and study science research methodology for a few years and then come back – or just stick to breast feeding advocacy. Until then you’re a textbook case of what Mia has just written about – and another antivaxer with a whopping case of the “Dunning-Krugers”.
loading...
If she’s with the ABA (or whoever they are in NZ), or a lactation consultant yes. Otherwise, I wish she’d stop.
loading...
Here is a question for those who are suspicious of medical motivation in advising vaccination. What do you think of paediatricians and neonatologists + neonatal ICU nurses? These people dedicate their lives to doing their best for sick children. NICU nurses and doctors look after tiny premature babies and meticulously help them to develop to full-term size. And these people advocate vaccination of newborns.
Why do you think that is? NICUs exist only in the hospital system – this is not a high-earning specialty. It is hard work, often shift-work, and can involve heartbreaking outcomes. These people know all about the maturing of the immune system, lungs and other organ systems. And they advocate vaccination. Why would they do that?
Do people who think that the vaccines are “too much” for young babies think that the NICU people just haven’t thought of that? Why wouldn’t they – they administer them. Are they just really smart in every other part of their jobs and just dumb in this one? If you baby is being managed in NICU, which other aspect of care do you know more about than they do?
It would be great to hear someone’s perspective on this.
loading...
http://ummmuhammadahmad.wordpress.com/2012/03/14/babies-killed-in-hospital-by-super-dose-of-vaccines/
Worth reading in regard to the above comments. To Cherie: Thanks for the positive response. It made me continue with unbridled passion!
loading...
The father of this poor baby (note: singular – her twin sister had the same vaccinations with no problems) enters the comments section at the end of this article.
(Forgive me for posting an article from VacTruth, but some pertinent observations are made in the comments section.)
– This baby had to be resuscitated at birth.
– Her death is recorded as meningitis. All evidence supports this.
- The meningitis is most likely caused by Neisseria meningitidis – and meningococcal can advance incredibly quickly – from a mild cold to death in hours.
– No evidence supports the vaccines having anything at all to do with her death.
- THe parents refused an autopsy.
http://vactruth.com/2012/01/19/baby-dies-after-first-shots/
“Sometimes, life is cruel, and little babies like this one die. Meningitis is a terrible group of bacteria and it has been killing infants for hundreds of years. It presents as something very mild like a common cold and then, sometimes before we can recognize it quickly enough, it spreads like wild fire and kills.
But this just isn’t related to the vaccines. ”
Paediatric staff deserve more respect, Douglas.
loading...
Douglas – I would be interested in your perspective on my questions above. Why do you think that nurses and doctors with amazing expertise at caring for tiny premature babies just happen to be wrong on vaccines?
(The link you post does not contribute to the discussion – it is a sad story of distressed parents whose premature twin died of sepsis from meningitis.)
loading...
Being a 17 year old, terrified of needles all my life I’ve spent a lot of ‘google-time’ researching any vaccination before I get it. I am not going to put myself through an anxiety attack if the pros don’t outweigh the cons. But at the end of the day, as much as I would love to believe that there is a valid argument against them, I simply cannot see it in all my online reading. Looking into the sources, research and manipulation of statistics on any anti-vaccination website it is easy to see there is no valid science behind these claims. I don’t know how others believe that stuff when I want to believe it, but as a logical person, cannot.
loading...
Read the ingredients that are supplied by the manufacturers for each vaccine and then choose Alice.
loading...
Or, read the ingredients and ask someone who actually has a clue about each one and get it explained to you, rather than freaking out unnecessarily.
loading...
I just read the ingredients of water – Hydrogen AND Oxygen. One is EXPLOSIVE and the other supports combustion. Who the hell would put them TOGETHER then pump them all the way to MY house!?!?!!!
Hydrogen, a nasty chemical which is used in Hydrogen Bombs, is also an asphyxiant and can cause severe tissue damage in liquid form… like it is in water.
Oxygen, meanwhile, is a known toxin. We should avoid it at all costs, like all known toxins. Worse, it is another nasty chemical that is so dangerous it can actually turn iron and other strong materials into dust. And, like Hydrogen, it is even more dangerous in liquid form (like in water). You really don’t want to be coming into contact with this stuff.
I’m thinking of starting a blog called “Chemistry for people who can’t be bothered understanding it”. It should be a hit with anti-vaxers.
loading...
Andy: Best post on this entire board! Thank you for a much needed laugh!
loading...
Alice, you can’t rely on articles for vaccine info, you need to research studies, and you need to make sure the study isn’t funded or authored by the company that is having their product studied because it’s likely to be severely spun.
Also Alice why don’t you provide evidence for this: “Looking into the sources, research and manipulation of statistics on any anti-vaccination website, it’s easy to see there is no valid science behind these claims”. You can’t just spout of statements like that without some hard evidence, or it makes you even worse than the anti-vax websites you are trying to discredit.
How do you know there is no valid science behind them, have you bothered to investigate their studies? How exactly have they manipulated statistics?
loading...
Actually Alice, regardless of who funds a study, you need to consider :-
What was the experimental design?
How well did it control for confounding variables?
Did they analyse the results with an appropriate statistical test for their experimental design?
Was their methodology appropriate to the experiment,
was their experiment a sufficiently rigorous test of their hypothesis, how likely is their hypothesis to be plausible based upon prior probability,
– These are just SOME of the questions you should be asking yourself as you read a study, not just who funded it – or whether it supports a pet belief!
loading...
Jane DJ, I have to admire your fortitude and persistence. Obviously you’re a scientist, your comments are very informative. Thank you.
Maybe when it’s time again(hopefully in the distant future) you could publish a scientific post, maybe on research or similar.
loading...
It’s like playing whack-a-mole Faybian, armed with a rusty science degree and a passion for critical thinking!!
loading...
I try, but it gets wearing. Most people I come across are good with immunisation, we just get the occasional anti vaxxer. Most people I see that don’t vaccinate are simply too lazy. I’ll save the majority of my energy for them.
loading...
Cherie, I have spent a lot of time looking at manipulation of research statistics on anti-vaccination websites, and I have specific training in critical evaluation of medical research. I can confirm that Alice came to the correct concllusion.
loading...
Sue, maybe you can provide some evidence for your claims? I have a list of studies here: When journalists attack non-vax parents
Maybe you’ve researched one of them?
loading...
Someone else has analysed some of your “studies” on another blog – reply #266 onwards
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/anti-vaccine_propaganda_lands_in_new_yor.php#c6248710
Thanks to Chris over at Respectful Insolence!
loading...
Cherie – I’ve analysed your entire list of “studies” (most of which are not studies) below.
loading...
As a parent it is in my hands whether to inject unknown chemicals into a baby or to choose to do so at a later date when their bodies and brains are at a developed stage able to tackle such chemicals. Mia, Mia, Mia, your years as an editor of such upstanding gossip magazines have obviously tainted you. The people that challenge authority and demand choice are those that take risks and question subjects not of their expertise.
loading...
Given that vaccines are manufactured in a carefully controlled process, including testing of the contents of the product, please explain how or when these so-called “unknown chemicals” get in. Or did you just make that up?
loading...
Unknown to the general public that is. But now that you ask of the chemicals, here is a list of ingredients, which are not made up, common to most childhood vaccinations:
Acetone (solvent used in fingernail polish remover)
Aluminum hydroxide
Aluminum phosphate
Aluminum sulfate
Amphotericin B
Animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
Dog kidney, monkey kidney
Chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
Calf (bovine) serum
Betapropiolactone
Fetal bovine serum
Formaldehyde
Formalin
Gelatin
Glycerol
Human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
Hydrolyzed gelatin
Monosodium glutamate (MSG)
Neomycin (antibiotic)
Neomycin sulfate
Phenol red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
streptomycin (antibiotic)
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphate (neurotoxin)
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
Washed sheep red blood cellsAcetone (solvent used in fingernail polish remover)
Aluminum hydroxide
Aluminum phosphate
Aluminum sulfate
Amphotericin B
Animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
Dog kidney, monkey kidney
Chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
Calf (bovine) serum
Betapropiolactone
Fetal bovine serum
Formaldehyde
Formalin
Gelatin
Glycerol
Human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
Hydrolyzed gelatin
Monosodium glutamate (MSG)
Neomycin (antibiotic)
Neomycin sulfate
Phenol red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
streptomycin (antibiotic)
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphate (neurotoxin)
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
Washed sheep red blood cellsAcetone (solvent used in fingernail polish remover).
Thankyou for asking such a pertinent question Rohan G. By the way, if anyone chooses to doubt the above then check the ingredients of every vaccine that is given to most of our children. Any doctor worth their weight in drugs should be more than happy to let you.
loading...
https://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/
loading...
A very good article and I do agree with alot of it but I still don’t understand why parents do not question the ingredients of vaccines yet seem concerned when, for example, food colouring or stabilizers are added to food they eat. Why do parents not question this? These ingredients may be of a small amount but I do question the necessity of them in this day and age and in such a country where health and hygiene is of a high standard. Once again, when you look at the ingredients for some of these injections, surely one would have to question the need?
loading...
Oh, no. More chemicals! I hate to see what antivaccinationists will write when they find out that dihydromonoxide is a major component of virtually every vaccine. They really should add DHMO to their lists. I mean, just look at what it’s used for!
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html#USES
[sarcasm off]
All substances listed in the levels contained in vaccines are there for a reason and have been proven safe.
loading...
Actually, in the real world, many of the ingredients listed are classified as highly toxic. It sounds like you’re just spouting off propaganda you’ve read on a pro-vax site. If you bothered to investigate the ingredients for yourself you wouldn’t be sitting there blinding ranting that these are safe.
loading...
Oh, BS, Cherie, the dose makes the poison, first principle of toxicology.
“All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison….”
You’re the one overdosing on propaganda.
loading...
And a link to info on mercury thresholds:
Answering pro-vax questions
loading...
Re thimerosal safety in vaccines:
Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Databases
“We found no consistent significant associations between TCVs and neurodevelopmental outcomes.”
PEDIATRICS Vol. 112 No. 5 November 1, 2003
pp. 1039 -1048
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/112/5/1039.full
loading...
Jane, the aluminum and mercury in many vaccines and past vaccines is well over the threshold for toxicity according to the CDC and FDA. Atleast I have sources and studies for the statements I’ve made. You haven’t given any evidence for anything you’ve said. I’m certainly not the one spouting BS here.
Here’s links to info on thresholds for aluminum toxicity:
Childhood vaccination: Aluminum
loading...
“Dog Kidney and monkey kndney” get mentioned twice. Would you please let us know which vaccine on the current Australian schedule contains dog kidney or monkey kidney?
loading...
I’m over this. My energy levels are better spent elsewhere. I am not against vaccinations as a whole but feel that at such a young age it seems questionable to be injecting such chemicals into developing bodies. I have had my children treated for a few common childhood diseases, one with whooping cough at 6 months. We were very confident and pleased with the help we got from both General Practioners and Specifically Trained Practioners, none of this involved the relatively recent idea of vaccinations but did involve health practices that have been around for a lot longer. Just because a parent chooses to postpone the vaccinating their children does not mean they don’t access other modes of modern medicine. The ‘My way or the highway’ approach that I have read within this blog seems rather shallow. We all face very tough choices as parents and should respect these decisions of others. There are many areas in our lives which determine whether we are more susceptible to sickness or death. May every parent live with the strength that they choose the best for their children without fear or ridicule.
loading...
Douglas – did you know that paediatricians and neonatal specialists care deeply about the health of children? And that they recommend vaccination according to the schedule? If they have the knowledge to keep tiny premature babies alive, why would they be ignorant about the effects of vaccines on tiny babies? You don’t think they have thought about it, perhaps?
loading...
What were the treatments used?
loading...
Consumer goods are recalled, redesigned or required to display warning labels when they contain toxic ingredients or cause accidents. They are often banned. Why do people not question the ingredients injected into babies at such a crucial time in their developing brains and bodies?
loading...
The opinion of a libertarian anti-vaxer who is clueless about toxicology, will be given all the consideration that is warranted.
loading...
A ‘clueless libertarian anti-vaxer’! Wow, a believer in the freedom of thought who questions what goes into their body. I can live with that. Worse names have been slung at me in the schoolyard. Your use of sarcasm is noted. I just thought it was pertinent in this debate to point out some of the ingredients that are in vaccines that no one seems to be mentioning. As for your chosen ‘chemical’: dihydromonoxide, a substance which doesn’t appear to be included in any vaccine. Any information alluding to this would be welcome.
loading...
As for your chosen ‘chemical’: dihydromonoxide, a substance which doesn’t appear to be included in any vaccine. Any information alluding to this would be welcome.”
As chemistry does not seem to be your strong point, with pleasure, sir….
Dihydrogen = 2 molecules of hydrogen (H)
Monoxide = 1 molecule of oxygen (O)
H2O
Water. Google it. Fascinating stuff.
Missed it on your little list there.
loading...
I just don’t see the relevance of noting that water is in all vaccines. Answering specifically and relevantly is all that is needed. Derision and name calling somehow doesn’t seem relevant to my point of why parents are not questioning the ingredients in vaccines.
loading...
“Why do people not question the ingredients injected into babies at such a crucial time in their developing brains and bodies?”
People do. That’s why the same paediatricians and neonatal ICU doctors and nurses who look after your children when they are sick recommend that you vaccinate. They have questioned, and concluded that babies and children should be vaccinated.
loading...
Actually we have no idea whether they have questioned vaccines at all, and even if they were wary of the safety of vaccines their workplace pro-vax policy would inhibit them from ever sharing their opinion with a patient.
Most doctors and GPs aren’t trained in virology or epidemiology, and unless they’ve done their independent research, they may know less about the latest vaccine studies than you.
loading...
Cherie – you must have very l;ittle contact with the medical profession. Of course the ingredients of vaccines are “questioned” – that’s part of what vaccine research is about. Have you read any of the analysis of the febrile reactions to WA H1N1 – it was widely discussed last year. The fact that you are unaware of the questioning within the profession doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
loading...
“Most doctors and GPs aren’t trained in virology or epidemiology,…”
Cherie – doctors in all fields cross-refer and consult each other all the time – that’s why we have “specialists”. So, are you saying that a GP should believe an immunologist if they are consulted about the management of lupus, say, or HIVB, but not about immunisation. Someone could trust a paediatrician’s opinion on asthma or bronchiolitis, but not on vaccination.
Cherie, you are right that not every doctor is a specialist in immunology. However, every doctor has studied the clinical science of immunology. Unlike some commenters here.
loading...
Google is great for confirmation bias. People who distrust valid scientific evidence & believe in fear mongering can find anything to make the indefensible defensible – it’s morally and scientifically bankrupt when it comes to anti-vaccination. However, despite the plethora of responses below and on other sites, Australia’s immunisation rates are still world class at above 90%.
I have more concerns about the attack on climate scientists where we are seeing tangible detrimental results of inaction. Unfortunately, public discourse around that has been hijacked & polluted for decades by disinformation.
loading...
The thing is people who are on the other side of the fence (vaccine-free) could say exactly the same thing about you Lynnd. Both sides often assume the other sides opinion is ‘scientifically baseless’. You need to provide some citing studies to be taken seriously, or you’ll be as guilty of spewing meaningless crap as Mia.
loading...
I guess I’m not really that interested in being taken seriously in this context. The vaccination rate in Australia is high enough for me. And it’s true, guilty as charged, like Mia, there is no debate.
loading...
Well for some of us Lynnd our kids lives are too precious to take a chance on. If there is a chance we are causing more harm than good by vaccinating, you can bet we’ll investigate the studies behind the hype – for our childrens sake.
loading...
Thanks for that Cherie, you nicely encapsulate the idiocy of antivax: “Too precious to take a chance on.” Umm… has it occured to you that the decision on whether to vaccinate or not is a comparison of two different risks? Taking your chances on not vaccinating puts your child at greater risk, and is also socially irresponsible.
loading...
Rohan thanks for pointing out the ignorant arrogance of many pro-vaxers, oh yes everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot lol.
The studies I’ve read, and I’ve read alot, show that the risk of vaccinating is worse than the risk of not vaccinating . And as a parent it would be irresponsible of me to vaccinate my child knowing those risks.
You can shove your ‘social responsibility’. You’re more than welcome to buy into the vaccination scheme, but you have no right to force others too. You can’t guarantee my child or others, won’t end up with Autism or other vaccine injuries.
Forcing someone to do something that could potentially kill or harm their child, for the sake of your own, is not ethical.
The long term safety of vaccines have NOT been thoroughly studied. Sorry, the risk is too great.
loading...
Well, show us the studies you’ve read, Cherie.
Re: long term safety of vaccines, what is your definition of long term? The MMR vaccine has been around since the 60′s, and still no link to anything bad. The smallpox vaccine was used for 150 years, and it successfully eradicated a most horrible disease. Do you know what goes into the four phases of vaccine trials? Do you know how many people are used as study subjects for those?
loading...
Hi Cherie. Resorting to name calling does not advance your cause and more firmly establishes the view that anti-vaxes are irrational.
When you have a reasoned argument using references, we are all open to listening. Politely.
And just for the record – talk of protecting “precious lives” is used by both sides.
loading...
“The studies I’ve read, and I’ve read alot, show that the risk of vaccinating is worse than the risk of not vaccinating.”
Well whoopty doopty doo. I’ve read on the internets that the world is going to end in December this year, homeopathy can cure radiation induced sickness, and the recent New Zealand earthquake was a man-made event. You’ve read lots of “studies” that confirm your cognitive bias. Counts for naught.
loading...
I’ve already linked to a list of studies on his thread, but here it is again:
When journalists attack non-vax parents
At least I have the studies to back up my statements, I haven’t actually seen any pro-vax person on this thread provide any evidence – probably because most rely on tiny snippits of shoddy dramatised press (like this article).
loading...
Well, either you’re not looking very hard, or you don’t have the faculty to recognise legitimate references when you see them.
loading...
Hmm yeah anyone could say the same about you, problem is it doesn’t seem you’ve looked at any studies at all. You’ve got nothing, no evidence to back your opinion at all.
loading...
You’re the one going against the mainstream scientific evidence – you’re the one who needs to convince us Cherie. My evidence is the fact that all child health organisations worldwide offer vaccines to prevent communicable diseases.
You’re the one giving dodgy studies, and getting roundly trounced, on more than one website. See Sue’s deconstruction of your “studies” further down not to mention
comment 266 onwards here:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/anti-vaccine_propaganda_lands_in_new_yor.php#c6248710
loading...
Hahaha Sue did an appalling job, and if this rebuttal from the science blog is anything like the article, it’ll be an angry rant with no science, despite the name.
loading...
“Sue did an appalling job” says Cherie. OK, please correct me by taking each reference in turn and showing me how they said what you think they said (I don’t mean quoting them, I mean analysing them – what the did, what they measured, what the found, how they analysed it and whether their conclusions are valid).
I look forward to reading your critical appraisal of the few actual studies that you referenced.
loading...
“You can shove your ‘social responsibility’”. That. Right there is the anti-vax mantra in a nutshell. Give me MY rights but don’t expect me to accept any responsibilities.
loading...
“Both sides often assume the other sides opinion is ‘scientifically baseless.”
Given that our side has expert scientists, medical specialists and doctors, and you side’s chief exponent in Australia is Meryl Dorey (whose only qualification is, “I have a brain,”) I think the assumption that our assumption is better than your assumption is quite safe.
loading...
Wrong again Rohan, there are scientific studies that both support and don’t support vaccines. The problem is that the majority of vax studies are funded and authored by the industry themselves, which means finding untainted studies is a hard task.
There’s also a myriad of physicians, researchers and scientists that question the safety of vaccination.
Citing studies and sources for this can be found at the blog post I linked to further down this thread.
loading...
I don’t know, Rohan, that sounds suspiciously like you’ve just made your opinion premised on facts. Some of us prefer to be deep drunk on the Kool Aid.
loading...
Oops sounds like you’ve got your sentence round the wrong way, spin it round so that you and Rohan are deep drunk on the Kool Aid and you’ve got it right.
loading...
I was going to let my opinions be just that but after reading the vitriol being slung back and forth I couldn’t help but interject. Cherie, as you are probably aware, a generation ago our mothers were told that formula fed babies was the correct approach for a healthy start. There was a minority that questioned the validity of this and stood strong in their beliefs. A generation later and those dark ages have been deemed false and misleading. Sound familiar? Keep up the good work. I, for one, am not used to the abuse and negativity found within this forum and am agreeing to disagree (’tis the Libran in me!). This is a belief system we are all fighting for here. In other countries wars have been waged on beliefs. Be careful where you throw stones at. Much peace and love to everyone.
loading...
Douglas you sound like a lovely person, and the fact you’d rather not be involved in the mud-slinging match here is an honorable trait. I don’t normally get into it either, mainly because these discussions are are so draining and you really do have to deal with a lot of prejudice.
I know one day we will look back on this time, when we allowed pharmaceutical companies to experiment on our children, causing generations of injured children, with absolute disgust and disbelief. And I’ll be proud to stand along side you, knowing we stood strong and protected our children
loading...
Scream the martyr and hopefully no one will notice all the flaws in everything you’ve posted about.
loading...
It must be draining from so far out of your depth, Cherie. But one day we will look back on the last century as a time of enlightenment, when scientific discovery blossomed in so many areas, and we rarely have to bury infants.
loading...
I was going to give up contributing to this blog until I read your response Cherie. I take part in many other blogs which provide an open forum on opinions, ideas, beliefs, philosophies etc. The contributors manage to keep comments civil without resorting to generalizations or name calling. This is the first blog which I have encountered that have the common ideal of one past U.S President that you are ‘either with us or against us’! The slander and hypocrisy is astounding. I shall fight on though. Thankyou
loading...
Because Cherie’s comment that I talk out of my arse is the epitome of modest decorum.
Oh, yes, Douglas, the hypocrisy is SO astounding
loading...
Here’s my response to Mias shoddy piece of hack journalism:
When journalists attack non-vax parents
What’s most alarming is the comments here, and how common Mias attitude is – based on tiny snippits of dramatised press. Mias ‘article’ has no basis whatsoever, there are no citing studies, no sources! She is the epitome of what she is blaming others of being – she’s a sucker for online ‘medical advice’ that has no scientific basis.
loading...
You could make a delicious pie with those cherries.
I’ll take the most credible source from your list – “HEPATITIS B VACCINATION OF MALE NEONATES AND AUTISM DIAGNOSIS, NHIS 1997–2000″
…. “Our findings do not suggest that the risks of autism outweigh the benefits of vaccination; however, future research into hepatitis
B vaccination scheduling is warranted.”
Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. There have been no studies showing causality at all between autism and vaccinations which is why research like this is touted instead. (And even here, it is limited to Hep B vacs) The researchers themselves state the correlation does not outweigh the benefits of vaccination.
loading...
Ummm you just cherry picked one out yourself to try and hold up your own unsupported opinion. You then went further to cherry pick one statement out of the whole study. You need to read the WHOLE study, but maybe that’s beyond you?
The study states: Boys who were vaccinated with the Hep B triple series vaccine were 9 times more likely to need early intervention or special education services, than boys who were not vaccinated with the Hep B vaccine.
Yeah I’m not going to risk my children having a 9 fold risk of needing special education for the close to nil risk of contracting Hep B.
Sorry not a viable trade off.
Further, there are 8 sound studies there you have to contend with. But hey, if you’re going to choose to be ignorant that’s your choice.
loading...
There is a distinction between picking one of your cherries and cherry-picking your cherries. I did the former.
“The study states: Boys who were vaccinated with the Hep B triple series vaccine were 9 times more likely to need early intervention or special education services, than boys who were not vaccinated with the Hep B vaccine.”
Yes, I didn’t dispute that and it’s still entirely consistent with the conclusion the researchers came to of “Our findings do not suggest that the risks of autism outweigh the benefits of vaccination; however, future research into hepatitis.. is warranted” Again, correlation does not equal causality and certainly, not in a handful of studies.
You can make your decision based on 8,9 or so studies showing said correlation, I’m really not that concerned. I was just pointing out the logical fallacies in your reasoning. And I certainly have no interest in engaging in arguments using ad hominem like “ignorant” as a means of cheap point-scoring.
loading...
Lynnd, the very definition of ignorant is someone who willfully ignores information – which is what you just did.
You chose one statement from an entire study to make up your mind, ignoring the the actual results.
Without any evidence you have no where to go in the this convo, which is why you’re choosing to ignore the evidence presented.
Also, that is just one study you’ve ‘cherry picked’ out (your favourite word). While that study didn’t address causation in detail, many of the others did, in great detail.
loading...
“Lynnd, the very definition of ignorant is someone who willfully ignores information – which is what you just did.”
No, that would be the definition of prejudice. Someone who discounts your misinformation, however, is discerning.
loading...
I think that would leave you Lynnd as prejudice then… nice to know, I guess.
loading...
Cherie: “The fact that Autism and other injuries are caused by vaccines has been established scientifically, independently and repeatedly over years, even decades. While people like Mia think they have the right – indeed obligation – to challenge these facts.”
Where are these studies? Links, Cherie?
loading...
Kris2040 I just wrote a blog post with about 30 citing studies and I’ve linked to it further down this thread, but here it is again:
When journalists attack non-vax parents
loading...
Cherie,
Where do you think I got your quote from? Link them here. They’re your arguments, you back them up.
loading...
KrisatUni did you bother to read the citing studies beneath the article? Like I said there’s almost 30, not all autism related, but still, come on, it can’t be that hard to scroll down.
loading...
Likewise it can’t be too hard for you to post them. You’ve got them at your fingertips, haven’t you?
loading...
OK, CHerie, let’s call your bluff:
From your list, of “references”, starting at the top:
1 – 3 are opinion pieces on websites.
4. is a general website
5. – 10 are discussions about possible interactions between the medical profession and pharmaceutical companies
11., 12 and 13 are essays posted on anti-vaccination websites
14. Was a theoretical study that involved creating a “probability sample” from a pre-existing dataset. No children were examined. The numbers with autism in the dataset were tiny (30) and the odds ratios are given with huge confidence intervals (1.1 to 8.1). Many other limitations of the study are described by the authors themselves. This paper adds no support to your contention.
15. The author is from the “Dept of Economics and Finance”. This is another statistical exercise where no children were examined or tested. The author himself lists some significant limitations, including “The data in this study were not exact.” ANother poor paper.
16. A clinical study with small numbers that did not actually look at vaccination status.
17. – 21 A mix of studies looking at associations (not causation) between various heavy metals and behavioural disorders – not specifically vaccination.
22. A copy of a draft paper obtained uner FOI by an antivax group.
23.”How to boost your immune system”
24 to 26 – conjecture about Vitamin C.
27 – 30 – conjecture about effects of Vit D
31.Prevalence of eczema and food allergy is associated with latitude in Australia.
32. – 40 – a range of opinion pieces about environmental toxins, smoking and breast feeding
41. The VAERS index (an uncontrolled database of unverified cases)
42. A comparison of various syndromes (including the now debunked “Gulf War SYndrome” in relation to autoimmune disease.
43. AN opinion piece about HPV vaccine
44. AN underpowered and inconclusive study (as the authors themselves state).
45 – Weak link between atopy and whole-cellular pertussis vaccine – which is no longer used.
46. A study that shows a link between asthma and low SES plus family history in asthma, but no firm link with vaccination.
47. A 1999 paper looking at the rate of atopy in children schooled in Steiner schools
48. A comment in JAMA in 1994
49. “Our data suggest that currently recommended routine vaccinations are not a risk factor for asthma or eczema.”
50. A medscape discussion thread
51. An article from the Geelong Advertiser!
There you go – 51 references, and not a single one supporting your view.
loading...
This is getting ridiculous, they’re all fantastic studies, you haven’t ‘debunked’ any of them. You’ve simply made a conscious decision to ignore them because you haven’t got a leg to stand on in this discussion.
loading...
Oh, Cherie, come on. Time to surrender gracefully.
loading...
These studies are very clear about the link to autism:
A thorough review of medical literature and U.S. government data indicates that excessive mercury exposure from thimerosal in vaccine injections is an etiological mechanism for causing the traits of autism. 14
The overwhelming evidence from the peer-reviewed scientific and medical literature favours acceptance that mercury exposure is capable of causing some Autism Spectrum Disorders, particularly in children who are biochemically and/or genomically susceptible to mercury intoxication. 15
The children with Autism Spectrum Disorder had a significant dose-response relationship between the severity of the regressive Autism Spectrum Disorder and the total mercury dose children received from Thimerosal-containing vaccines/Rho (D)-immune globulin preparations, and suffered mercury toxic encephalopathies (brain injury) that manifested with clinical symptoms consistent with regressive Autism Spectrum Disorders. 16
Boys aged 3 to 17 years (born before 1999 with a vaccination record) who received the first dose of hepatitis B vaccine during the first month of life were 3 times more likely to be diagnosed with autism, than boys either vaccinated later or not at all. 17
The higher the proportion of children receiving recommended vaccinations, the higher was the prevalence of Autism or Speech or Language Impairment. Enhanced exposure to aluminum via vaccines may be associated with an increase in the prevalence of neurological disorders such as autism, especially if an aluminum-containing vaccine is administered along with a measlescontaining vaccine. 18
Children with severe Autism Spectrum Disorder had biomarkers consistent with mercury toxicity. This study concludes mercury intoxication is significantly associated with autistic symptoms. 19
Boys who were vaccinated with the Hep B triple series vaccine were 9 times more likely to need early intervention or special education services, than boys who were not vaccinated with the Hep B vaccine. 20
Our results show that: (i) children from countries with the highest ASD prevalence appear to have the highest exposure to Al from vaccines; (ii) the increase in exposure to Al adjuvants significantly correlates with the increase in ASD prevalence in the United States observed over the last two decades (Pearson r=0.92, pb0.0001); and (iii) a significant correlation exists between the amounts of Al administered to preschool children and the current prevalence of ASD in seven Western countries, particularly at 3–4 months of age (Pearson r=0.89–0.94, p=0.0018–0.0248). The application of the Hill’s criteria to these data indicates that the correlation between Al in vaccines and ASD may be causal. 21
loading...
Cherie – I’ve looked up all of your references – see itemised comments above. In order to evaluate the medical literature, it’s not enough to read English. You need knowledge of both the clinical sciences and of research methods.
When you read a paper, you need to check whether they have a clear and valid research question, whether the study is adequately powered, understand whether the methodology is appropriate to the research question, check how they collected the data and analysed it, understand potential biases and limitations, and see whether the actual results bear out the conclusions. IF the numbers are too small, biases haven’t been removed, confidence intervals are too wide etc etc etc, the conclusions may not be valid.
Let’s take your very last paragraph: “(Pearson r=0.89–0.94, p=0.0018–0.0248). ” What is the significance of a p-value that is listed as a huge range?
loading...
Oh well done. You’ve done what I couldn’t be bothered doing. I did wonder about some of the vitamin studies, the breastfeeding one and the newspaper column.
loading...
The amount of posts proving Mia’s point would be funny if they weren’t so dangerous and sad.
loading...
The myths one is worse, there’s about 1800 comments now. It’s gotten a bit beyond a joke.
loading...
Ahh Kris2040 you’re one of those proving Mias point – and so is Mia! YOU think you’re enough of an expert to dismiss scientific research showing vaccines cause injury. Oh the irony.
loading...
Your website isn’t exactly unbiased either. Yes, you have a list of references after your article, but I wonder about the quality of all of them. It brings to mind the pot calling the kettle black.
loading...
They’re all fantastic studies, but if you’re anything like Mia you won’t bother looking into them, maybe because you can’t be bothered? Who knows.
Please don’t compare me to Mia, I base my decisions, and blog posts on REAL scientific studies, I don’t just spew out a load of vitriol based on emotion.
loading...
Well, don’t compare me to Mia either. You have just as much in common with her as I do. I in no way consider myself an expert, but a lot of the articles you reference are food and diet related. You’ve reference your own blog and at least one article is from the journal of manipulative therapies (forgotten the exact title). I did see a lancet journal article and a few medscape and pub med articles. By happy coincidence because of work I can access these, but I’d be willing to bet not everyone could. One of the pub med one just showed the title (and I would’ve had to sign in to ckn), so I’ll admit I didn’t bother.
Fortunately, I know how to do a proper lit review as I’m au fait with the scientific study process, but I also know how time consuming it is (I learned that as a post grad in uni). So if I wanted to check if the articles were peer reviewed at all, or do a proper lit review, it could takes weeks and you know that.
loading...
If you’re not going to bother researching the studies maybe you should reserve your judgement on the validity of the sources – because you have no idea at this point.
The one page I referenced of my own was a page of listed & linked studies on breastfeeding. I could have added every study listed there but it would have added another 28 studies to the list already there. I don’t think one extra click of the mouse is a big ask.
loading...
I’m not going to get into a slanging match with you, even though you seem to want it. I do want to say that you’re pretty rude.
Part of my duties at work involve vaccinating. To gain an endorsement to vaccinate I had to study vaccines and yes, I’ve studied the information given out by “your side”.
So how about you back off on the smug reserve my judgement until… You don’t know exactly what I looked at this morning on your website, do you?
Unlike you appear to be, I’m open to new information being used and accepted in the clinical arena. I also maintain a healthy skepticism about “big pharma” et al.
Part of the reason I didn’t research all your linked articles was because a stranger on the Internet isn’t going to change my mind, just as I won’t change yours. I’ve had my kids all immunize (and not a one of them is autistic btw) and will continue to advise clients to their children and actually immunise some. If I wish to find something out I will research it at work (and possibly not include nutritional articles when looking at immunisation).
loading...
Faybian how about YOU back off and stop attacking me when you have no intention of researching the studies provided.
If no one on the internet (even the authors of studies) are not going to change your mind, what are you doing here? Why bother engaging me in convo in the first place? Are you trying to change my mind? Because to do that you’ll need evidence, and you seem to have none of that.
I’m not interested in a slanging match either, just common sense and sound evidence on the topic vaccination. Something this article had none of.
loading...
Cherie, you’re absolutely right, I’m not going to engage you any further.
Admit it, neither of are going to change each other’s mind and stop insisting I research your articles, I’ve already read some of them. I’m not doing a uni assignment here.
loading...
I’m not insisting you read anything, I’m insisting you stop attacking me if you’re not going to actually read the evidence.
But unlike you I am more than willing to read new evidence, it’s just no one’s provided any here.
loading...
“They’re all fantastic studies..” Truly, Cherie? Only a handful are studies at all. What are your criteria for a good study (or even a fantastic one?)
“I base my decisions, and blog posts on REAL scientific studies,…” Based on what you have posted, that is not true.
loading...
I don’t think I’m an expert at all, Cherie. I, however, am intelligent enough to know this and defer to people who actually know what they’re on about, rather than snake oil selling quacks who promise the world and deliver nothing.
loading...
Obviously you can’t Kris2040, maybe your bias is getting in the way? You’ve written off those who commented on this thread with a differing opinion to you as ‘dangerous and sad’.
Sorry, you DON’T have the expert knowledge to make that call.
loading...
Hey guys, just a reminder to keep the conversation civil. Great to have opinions, but try not to attack each other.
loading...
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/anti-vaccine_propaganda_lands_in_new_yor.php#c6248324
Comment 244 onwards supplies some lulz.
loading...
Here here Lucy. Am assuming everyone is a civil adult that contributes to this.
loading...
Cherie, you’re proving Mia’s point. According to your own blog you’re a mum who’s interested in stuff. That doesn’t make you an expert on anything except being a mum to your kids and being interested in stuff. Yet you spout “info” and people listen. Who’s the self-proclaimed expert, then?
loading...
Yeah I’ve never claimed to be an expert have you? I share the info found in studies, but I’m petty sure that doesn’t make me an expert. But apparently you think it does.
loading...
I was reading a well written article about vaccines and mentioned it to a friend, they then mentioned this article, so thought I would respond with what I had been reading, and no, I found it in a magazine, but had to google it to pass on to you. I respect your views, I tend to question everything and don’t settle on a view unless absolutely sure. One thing I do know is, I would not put poison on the kids weeties, so why would I want it injected into them. I also know that pharmaceutical companies are in business and healthy people are not good for business.
I hope you find the time to read the article, written by an expert and quoting many studies from experts.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james.htm
loading...
Regarding Howenstine’s ineffective vaccines rant you quoted above –
Where do you suppose polio went, if the vaccines are so ineffective? I received those vaccines. Why am I still alive if those vaccines contained horribly dangerous cancer-causing viruses? You yourself point out that millions of people received those vaccines, so there should be a huge spike in overall cancer death rates and a decrease in life expectancy for that time period. Where is it? Citations luv.
Oh, and lets remember polio in 1952 for a minute:
loading...
I don’t think well written means what you think it means, if that’s your example.
loading...
Watch this : http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/
loading...
Read this and then you will have the tools to asess that antivaccine propaganda movie critically.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/11/anti-vaccine_propaganda_lands_in_new_yor.php
In a nutshell “It’s total anti-vaccine propaganda, manipulative to the core and full of misinformation confusing correlation with causation.”
loading...
That ‘article’ has absolutely no citing studies, the guy literally pulled it out of this arse.
loading...
There you have it folks – the Dunning- Kreuger Effect in action.
“… the phenomenon wherein people who have little knowledge think that they know more than others who have much more knowledge.”
loading...
Yeah you describe the guys blogpost perfectly Jane! The guy is trying to take on doctors, researchers and scientists who research vaccination for a living. Who does he think he is? Maybe I’d listen if he had some evidence, some studies, but he’s got nothing, just one long post of arrogant vitriol.
loading...
Cherie – what are “citing studies”?
loading...
So, Mia, are you saying your “Informed Consent” to having your children vaccinated was NOT Informed? That makes you just the sort of parent the “health’ authorities just love in America!
In California, your 12-year-old could give her own “Informed Consent” to vaccination without your knowledge. How great would that be?! You would be passing on the mantle of ignorance that you so proudly wear!
The revolution has begun so choose your side carefully (do some actual research) because history is never kind to the ignorant.
loading...
There is a new strain of whooping cough which is resistant to the vaccine:
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/13231726/whooping-cough-strain-vaccine-resistant/
loading...
How do you know it’s “resistant”, John?
Firstly, resistance is developed to antibiotics, not vaccines.
But cowpox provided immunity for smallpox, two different species of virus. One can immunise against another.
So how do you know?
loading...
Did you read the article?
I’m hopeful there will be a vaccine to cover this new strain soon.
loading...
Ilijas is right – “resistence” is a term applied to the ability of micro-organisms to survive antibiotics.
The concept for vaccination is whether there is cross-reactivity (of the body) to different strains. If there is cross-reactivity (at least partial), the body can still make antibodies that are effective against the different strain.
The current whooping cough vaccine produces partial cross-reactivity to the different pertussis strains that are being found – that;s why it is recommended that vaccination continues.
loading...
Putting continual immunological pressure on circulating strains of a disease will eventually engender the emergence of genetic variants with enhanced potential for pathogenicity in humans. Translation: mass vaccination, will actually induce gene mutation that could result in more cases of vaccine resistant disease, increased hospitalizations and a larger death toll….. And this is EXACTLY what is happening with the current “epidemic” in Australia! So before running out the door to get your “whooping cough booster” or “flu shot” maybe have a think about what all these vaccines are causing… Long term…
And for the record I am one of those “doctors who is opposed to vaccination” we do actually exist
loading...
By the same argument antivirus software for computers is a waste of time because hackers will always “evolve” better viruses than your protection software. So folks, don’t bother getting virus protection for your computer or upgrading the software you do have – or vaccinating your children – because “Dr CJ” knows better than 99% of doctors and medical scientists.
loading...
I’m curious Dr CJ, what kind of a doctor are you……. medical, naturopathic, chiropractor, ?
loading...
Geologist? English PhD?
loading...
Cue crickets chirping….You’re probably a drive-by troll, so I am not expecting you to back up your utter screed, but if not, citations for your assertions, please.
loading...
CJ – vaccines do not “induce gene mutation.” The mutations occur spontaneously, and have nothing to do with the vaccine being around. The difference is that, if there is no cross-reactivity between old and new strains, the new ones may cause disease (until they are covered in a new vaccine).
loading...
My 3mo daughter currently has whopping cough , my husband and I are trying to help our daughter survive whilst maintaining some normality for our other 2 children. The anti-vaxers, can come and listen to our baby girl cough and struggle to breathe and then think about how their ‘choices’ impact on others. It is heart breaking.
loading...
The vaccine you are trying to guilt parents into injecting into their children could end up reacting badly causing Autism or a range of other injuries. It’s not ethical to force other parents to risk their childs life or health for the sake of your child getting whooping cough – not to mention the vaccine they’d be taking may still be completely ineffective.
My child developing Autism for your child being protected from whooping cough – sorry, not a viable trade off.
When journalists attack non-vax parents
loading...
Wow – you’ve not a shred of sympathy for a fellow parent with a very sick child, ill with a vaccine preventable disease, while demanding attention regarding your own child with a condition not proven to be associated in any way shape or form with vaccines. Just, wow.
loading...
Jane there are decades worth of studies showing Autism is linked to vaccines – you just haven’t read them.
When journalists attack non-vax parents
And while I have sympathy for someone with a sick child (I know perfectly well what it’s like), I’m not about to sit by and listen to someone use their sick child to manipulate and guilt others into a decision that would potentially kill or injure their child for life.
If you really want to be ‘wowed’ by insensitivity towards someones sick child read what the pro-vax folks had to say to Hayley below, pretty disgusting.
loading...
There is no link between vaccination and autism. None at all. Anecdotal stories maybe, but no link. Ever and at all
loading...
Lana read the above link, there’s a list of studies showing vaccinations are linked to Autism. I’m know it’s hard as a parent who has already vaccinated their child to accept that link exists, but it is reality unfortunately.
loading...
Reality
I don’t think that word means what you think it means, Cherie.
loading...
Yet you’re happy to guilt others by saying that you’d be putting your kids at risk of autism by getting them jabs? You’re displaying the worst of the anti-vax crowd right there. Back under your rock, Cherie. You’re as bad as Meryl and Viera and their buddies hassling people whose babies DIED from whooping cough and trying to blame it on parental vaccination and breastfeeding. Bottom feeders the lot.
loading...
Cherie, as I outlined above, your long list of references does not contain a single one that shows that any vaccination causes autism. Not one.
loading...
Sue, there’s a about 7 studies I’ve listed there that very clearly show, in black and white, vaccines or mercury cause Autism. You’re just to biased to believe it. Not my problem.
Kris you’ve completely twisted my words into some warped, prejudice anti-anti-vax rant. Sorry I will not be your scapegoat for your own insecurities and prejudices about vaccination.
I’ve made no one feel ‘guilty’, but simply asked that you take your foot off our necks. Leave vax-free parents alone, allow parents to have their choice. If your vaccine is not 100% that’s your damn problem, lobby the vaccine manufacturers for a better vaccine. Don’t harass vax-free parents to vax their kids, and possibly injure or kill their child. You have no damn right.
And Jane, what would you know about reality, you still haven’t got a study to stand on in this discussion. You’re literally talking out your arse.
loading...
Cherie – the few actual studies you have cited do nothing of the sort. I am not biased, I am simply agreeing with the vast majority of people who understand how to evaluate medical research. You clearly have your own opinion, but what makes you think it is credible? Your list of assorted “citations” makes your conclusions highly dubious.
loading...
Your brilliance is clearly being wasted here with all us plebeians- you should be off finding some Nobel laureates to mentally crush.
loading...
Cherie, what are my insecurities and prejudices about vaccination?
loading...
Mia, there really are two sides, and just because you say there is not, doesnt mean there’s not.
My daughter is in my opinion vaccine injured. I didnt realise it at the time but as time went by and I started to think for myself and began to connect the dots, it is as clear as day. She wasn’t born autistic, she regressed between 12-18months. Our naturopath ‘was’ a GP and he doesn’t think vaccines are safe or effective!
I have a friend who lost her son many years ago to vaccine injury and I have also travelled abroad researching different therapies and met many other parents of autistic children who have the same story as mine. The link between vaccines & autism HAS been proven, I guess it’s a matter of who you believe (this goes beyond Andrew Wakefield people) . There have been many books written about vaccines explaining why they are dangerous and don’t work.
I have met many non-vaxers and contrary to popular belief they are not what you would have people believe. They are intelligent and succesful in there own right and have researched vaccines far beyond google. From what I can gather pro-vaxers only know one side (what they have been told), non-vaxers have researched both sides and then made an informed decision. Ignorance really does breed hostility and it’s not doing much for your cause.
loading...
“My daughter is IN MY OPINION vaccine injured.”
Do you have any qualifications or experience in the medical field to back up that conclusion?
“She wasn’t born autistic, she regressed between 12-18months”
THat is a very common age for autistic indicators to be recognised.
“The link between vaccines & autism HAS been proven”
Could you please provide some links to this proof?
loading...
Thanks Hayley, for providing us with another example of exactly what Mia was talking about:
“I guess it’s a matter of who you believe. There have been many books written about vaccines explaining why they are dangerous and don’t work.”
No Hayley, it’s a matter of facts. Something lacking in the books you refer to.
loading...
Human resilience defending faith and belief in a gale of evidence to the contrary is truly amazing. The speed at which blind faith in alternatives to medicine has adapted to exploit the technology at hand *and* invent the means by which to defend what is clearly a fallacy of belief is impressive.
Whether it’s the “museum” showing Noah’s Ark and dinosaurs living with humans, or the confident claim of “research” into vaccination leading to the jaw dropping “conclusion” they are unworthy, fallacies to many serve as reality.
It is plain we have the ability to select certain intellectual tools well before we have any idea what to do with them (simply without being properly taught). Unlike the physical world there are few consequences to holding demonstrably false beliefs. Certainly disaster can strike as we’ve seen via the use of alternatives to medicine in terminal illness, extreme cult belief or inability to gauge risk.
But reading the anti-science twonkery below it seems their Dunning-Kruger delusions are still safely ensconced within the jumping castle of safe tumbles, screams and laughter. Rational Wiki suffers no fools gladly, consequently delighting in describing the sum of Dunning-Kruger’s work thusly:
“The Dunning-Kruger effect occurs when incompetent people not only fail to realise their incompetence, but consider themselves much more competent than everyone else. Basically – they’re too stupid to know that they’re stupid.”
It’s no mistake the vast bulk of anti-vaccine themed posts are in fact glorified self testimonials attached to predetermined agendas. Ms. Grumpy even spent 743 words lecturing hank assuming he had a certain blog because the FOUR words he wrote clearly announcing it is not his blog seemed to have been missed.
Grumpy admits to a misunderstanding yet includes (to my absolute delight): “This system obviously has some problems which need to be ironed out.”
And which system would that be one must surely wonder?
As Shelley notes Ms Grumpy is the epitome of Mia’s post, but surely more is at play. All the old standards are there. Vioxx, thalidomide, doubted discoveries, medical mistakes. In truth these are just ID tags dangling from the inability to grasp risk-benefit.
How anyone can deny vaccination yet drive a car, ride a bike/bicycle, smoke a cigarette, drink alcohol, use electricity or climb a ladder is a complete mystery as far as risk-benefit goes.
So perhaps we need to appreciate this human need to believe in something irrational. Many comparisons have been made between todays enemies of reason and the Enlightenment. Or rather how they represent a reversal of all the Enlightenment began.
The internet is not just the “information superhighway”. It’s also a screaming roller coaster ride through the pits and revulsion of human behaviour and deceit. One thing that sets us apart from other primates is our ability to seek, find and manipulate patterns. And we can do this to justify anything – right or wrong or no idea.
Vaccine refusal is not based on “science” or “research”. It relies on the towering ignorance of the over-confident and more often the thunderous immorality of the callous and cunning. The wonder of achievement that vaccines represent can’t be hidden behind a few stumbles or rank appeals to the Galileo complex or cherry picked data sculpted to deceive.
More to the point claiming to be intelligent and thus having successfully researched the science of vaccination is nonsense. Enough pattern recognition to turn cognitive dissonance into cognitive bias and ignite the Dunning-Kruger effect is all that happened.
There is so much information available the notion of accumulating enough knowledge to have “learned” in full is ridiculous. The challenge is more one of skill. The skill to choose those experts we can trust in taking advice.
Noting the sources and supporters of antivaccination propaganda one finds it incomprehensible that any could believe them. Yet it’s equally absurd to assume one could digest in a few months or a couple of years (sitting no evaluation), the copious information that even begins a career in immunology.
Antivaxxers would do well to develop the skill to admit or recognise what and when they simply do not know. Or to know when faith in their belief (as now) has become so immersed in attacking phantoms, rather than presenting evidence, that they pose a risk to society as a whole.
Are you too stupid to know that you’re stupid? Have the guts to find out for sure.
loading...
“Grumpy admits to a misunderstanding yet includes (to my absolute delight): “This system obviously has some problems which need to be ironed out.” ”
I misunderstood because in the original post (way, way down the page) reasonablefrank did not make it clear who’s blog it was (or indeed, whose he thought it was). Understandable mistake I would say.
And my comment about the system having problems relates specifically to the fact that I posted that post at approx 5am but it didn’t show up on the board until close to 8am – despite the fact that when it did eventually did show up it had a 5:05am time stamp on it. I’d say that’s a problem on what is (suppose to be) a dynamic, interactive board.
loading...
It’s actually to prevent spam, very important part of the system. If you include multiple links, comments require moderation so we have to ‘approve’ them but then when we do they go in where they were originally meant to.
loading...
Thanks for that explanation, Rick. An automated message to that effect at the time of posting would be have been nice.
loading...
Thank you for the answer.
I wish Ms Grumpy could have been more gracious.
loading...
Reasonablehank asked you twice “Is this your blog?” and then had a link to it underneath the question. How did you misread that?
loading...
Correction kris2040, but the first time reasonablehank mentioned it, s/he merely asked “Do you have a blog?” and below provided a link. It was not obvious, to me at least, that the link actually formed part of the question. Especially since I don’t have a blog. I, obviously mistakenly, assumed that the link was to his/her own blog. I responded from that position. It wasn’t until after I’d responded, but prior to the post showing up on the board, that I saw reasonablehank’s second post asking about a blog where he did, in a much clearer manner, ask if that blog was mine.
How did I misread it? That’s how. Hope that satisfies you!
loading...
I would click like one hundred times if I could (in reference to Paul’s post).
loading...
I love the word twonkery too….
loading...
Had your booster shots yet, Paul?
loading...
I had the misfortune to work with someone like this about a year ago. Anything he read was automatically a god-given truth, but he was evidently very selective in what he allowed himself to read so that no opinions that differed from his could be allowed to taint him. I remember when i was proposing that we upgrade our small and struggling Content Management System to something better suited to our needs, he immediately sent me a link to a forum thread full of people saying how crap my recommended system was. I went up one level to the forum it was in and without even doing a search to narrow things down found 4 other threads full of people saying it was wonderful and easy to use and had solved all their problems. Unsurprisingly, he didn’t appreciate having this pointed out.
Not quite in the same league as self-styled medical experts perhaps, but people like this exist in all walks of life, sadly.
loading...
I’m wondering if there were any people (just the ordinary, non medical expert kind) 40-50 odd years ago who did some research and either advocated against, or even questioned the efficacy of prescribing thalidomide for morning sickness in pregnant women?
I wonder if they were called ‘loons’ too?
PS. Before I get jumped all over, no, Mia didn’t call anyone a ‘loon’, she just implied it. Read the comments, plenty of ‘loon’ like accusations down there.
loading...
I asked you this question below. I have to go to work, so I won’t be able to answer for a while.
Is this your blog?
http://naturalmamanz.blogspot.com.au/
loading...
I did attempt to answer your original question in addition to one of your other posts but for some reason it wouldn’t post below your post nor up here at the top, so I gave up.
And now I’m almost laughing hysterically and wondering if there was some other-worldly intervention in my response not posting. You see, when you originally asked me that in the post below, and included that link, I thought you were indicating that THAT was your blog, and you were asking if I had one too. And when I went to check that blog out, things seemed a little strange,not the least that that blog is written by a ‘mama’ and your name here is reasonablehank. But then I thought, hey, who am I to question what someone wants to call themselves on here.
So no, it most certainly is not my blog. And, I’m not a kiwi.
Anyway, my non-posting response was written believing that that was your blog – and the inconsistencies it threw up. I’m sure you can imagine how hilarious that would have been considering it’s not your blog either.
And now, I really am done with this topic. I don’t have an agenda here and I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind about anything. And, I just don’t have any more to say, or time to waste, on this topic.
loading...
reasonablehank, I’m putting this up here because it simply won’t post below your comment that it’s in reply to.
You posted:
[Isn’t Google just an engine to access this information, though?
You seem to have journal access, and you imply that you have the training to understand and critically analyse any given paper/study. Would this be accurate?
How many people doing their internet research have this ability? I don’t. I freely admit that right now.
For example, when you come across a paper, do you understand the intricacies of immunology/virology/epidemiology which would be required to understand and interpret that paper?]
My response:
Well, I’m a little confused now reasonablehank. Actually, I’m a lot confused. In a post below you asked me if I had a blog. (I don’t) And then you provided a link to a blog I can only assume is yours. Is that correct?
And then in this post you say you don’t have access to journals or the ability to understand and critically analyse their content.
And yet your blog states:
“When I became a parent I found myself in a sea of conflicting, but well meaning, parenting advice from family, friends, my GP, magazines, adverts and websites. After much trial and error, I decided to find definitive answers. I began researching, digging through study after study, article after article, and summarizing the info in documents.”
http://naturalmamanz.blogspot.com.au/2010/10/about.html
You DOUBTED your GP? Shock, horror!
Study after study? Where did you find them? I can guess. And given the links you’ve added to some of your posts here, I’d say google is probably your best friend.
How did you determine what was worthy and what wasn’t in order to summarise them if you don’t have the ability to understand them? And yet, so confident are you of your ability that you published your summaries as a blog.
YOU decided to find definitive answers for YOURSELF? And you don’t trust all the ‘experts’ you encountered (either in person or in print). You research and you verify.
This has been my point, that anyone who doubts, is confused or has concerns should question, research, digest. Don’t blindly trust anyone, expert or not – they’re not always right. People should find the answers for THEMSELVES. And in doing so, they’ll will find times when even the so called ‘experts’ don’t agree with each other. There is much conflict within the scientific community – as there should be, it’s what drives further research and hence adds to the body of knowledge.
You also asked elsewhere:
“Do you think it is presumptuous of someone to claim to be informed, by reading demonstrably incorrect information on the internet, then, claiming to have the same knowledge as the combined experts in any discipline, thereby granting themselves permission to denigrate that knowledge?”
I don’t know now, you tell me, reasonablehank. I will say, as I’m sure you will concur, that not all information on the internet is ‘demonstrably incorrect’. You’re not the only one who has the ability to, in your words “… decipher(ing) common sense and accurate stats from a myriad of b*** s***.” http://naturalmamanz.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/answering-pro-vaccination-questions.html
reasonablehank, oh hell, can I just call you hank now? I feel we’ve developed an acquaintance of sorts here.
I like your blog. I may not agree with everything you’ve written there or agree with your interpretations /conclusions, but I like your blog a lot. It’s great. A wonderful example of the power of information and finding/researching the answers for yourself. Why, you even mock, yes folks indeed she mocks, the ‘experts’ -the obstetricians, midwives, nurses and other medical staff [for what they] have said to their patients. Can you believe it? Hank, honey, you could have knocked me down with a feather when I read that. They wouldn’t be some of those so call ‘experts’ who, in your opinion, had it wrong would they?
You know what, hank? I’m not sure if the ‘real’ hank is the one who’s written all over this topic in comments, or if the ‘real’ hank is the one who wrote that blog. If, as I suspect, your blog is an accurate indication of your beliefs, then I think we’re probably pretty much on the same page, or close to it, in this debate. And I would urge everyone here with an interest in the vaccination debate to go read your blog – if only for the insight, in light of things you’ve said here, it will provide.
loading...
Well thanks for that. So you feel it’s ok to mock obstetricians, paediatricians, midwives, nurses etc? Next time you or someone you know has a real need for the “so called experts” ie an accident, don’t bother coming in to emergency to visit us, ok.
loading...
Please see my comments above, below or wherever the hell they are, regarding that post.
I did not mock anyone. reasonablehank did not mock anyone (that I am aware of). And reasonablehank is not, as I mistakenly thought, a 30 year old NZ ‘mama’ who owns a blog.
loading...
You commented on how much you liked a post on this natural mamanz blog, that amongst other things mocked the medical establishment/staff. Even dragged out the “so called experts” thing again. What is one to infer from that?
loading...
“What is one to infer from that?”
That you, Faybrian, either didn’t read it in its entirety, or you misunderstood dreadfully.
Firstly, I didn’t refer anywhere to liking ‘a post’. I said I liked his/her blog. I then said: I may not agree with everything you’ve written there or agree with your interpretations /conclusions……
Sorry you missed that bit.
loading...
Oh hell…now it shows up? Hours after it was posted, and yet oddly showing a time stamp of hours ago when it was posted. This system obviously has some problems which need to be ironed out.
The above post is null and void. It was written on the misunderstanding that reasonablehank was the owner of a blog which s/he is not.
Sorry folks.
loading...
lol. I missed all the fun. Damn work
loading...
Great article Mia. Don’t listen to all the negative comments below – you did a good thing in raising this issue.
loading...
GET INFORMED ! http://WWW.INFOWARS.COM
loading...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
HA
loading...
…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!
loading...
GET REALLY INFORMED ! http://www.whale.to/b/reptilian_h.html
whale.to is also a great resource for anti-vaccine info.
(thanks Mia)
loading...
Great article Mia!
I am pregnant with my first child and at a recent hospital prenatal appointment, was handed brochures on the Vitamin K booster and Hep B vaccination that bubs receive upon birth. Husband and I were a bit surprised that the brochures were lobbying for us to have these injections given to bub as to us, they should be compulsory. If they relate to the health of a newborn then I really can’t see how there are even choices involved.
The midwife then had to go through the brochures thoroughly with us and ensure our consent for our baby to receive these injections.
Anything that offers our child protection from harm gets a resounding yes from both my husband and I and we certainly aren’t going to disagree or argue with years of research and proven results by medical professionals who know far more than we could begin to fathom on these subjects.
loading...
Here here, finally some common sense in parents to be
Common sense is a pre requisite for paranthood I would say, so you and your husband have certainly started off on the right foot!
loading...
from memory, your bub can have the Hep B when they’;re a bit older, maybe even orally (?), I think I chose that, cos I looked at Hep B transmission and figured I could keep her safe from that until she was a bit older.
loading...
Mia, it’s great that we have ‘experts’ to go to for advice in times of need; be it with tax, cooking or health. However, there’s so much wrong with this article on so many levels. Let’s start with the intelligence issue. Do I have “a wildly inflated sense of my own intelligence”? Not at all. Do I know everything? Not at all. Am I intelligent? You bet I am! As are many of us. And like many others, I have sufficient intelligence to research a topic and come to an INFORMED decision. Mia, a very wise old man once told me something which I have never forgotten. And it was:
The smartest person isn’t the person who has all the answers. The smartest person is the person who knows where to find the answers.
And although I do have a university education, I don’t believe it’s that which makes me intelligent. I would still have the same level of raw intelligence whether or not I had a university degree. And just because someone left school at 16 doesn’t necessarily make them unintelligent. You lambast people without a specialist training in medicine for thinking they can know anything pertaining to medicine. And yet then you use the example of Bill and Melinda gates as paragons of scientific knowledge simply because they are vastly wealthy philanthropist bankrolling an immunisation drive in the third world. Now, I have no doubt that both Bill and Melinda are highly intelligent individuals. But when it comes to vaccinations there’s nothing to suggest that they know more, or know better, than anyone else with intelligence. You disappoint me with your logic, Mia.
Now, to the medical ‘experts’. Our first port of call is the GP. In fact the vast majority of medical consultations are had with GPs. GPs are overburdened, time stressed, and often poor communicators -many of them simply don’t listen to exactly what it is their patients are telling them. No one doctor can possibly be expected to be an expert in EVERY possible thing that can go wrong with the human body. And none are! In fact, anything other than the most obvious ailment generally sends a good many GPs on a ‘fishing expedition’ of one diagnostic test after another, until by a process of elimination they might finally hit on what it is and arrive at a probable diagnosis. And that’s the good doctors! The bad ones simply dismiss you when they can’t find anything with the first test they order. But at best it’s like shooting a shotgun at the side of a barn and hoping something hits a target. And under our medical system it’s the GP who has to identify the problem in order to refer on to a medical specialist. Some of whom are worth their weight in gold. Others, who aren’t worth their weight in medical waste. (Dr Patel, anyone?)
Mia, you write as if these medical experts have all the knowledge there is to be had. As if everything that could possibly be known, is known already. You leave no possibility for further knowledge yet to be discovered. Knowledge that will alter that which we believe today. You also leave no possibility that some of the current medical dogma is simply wrong. The scientist got it wrong – either deliberately or through sloppy research practices. Conversely, just because something has yet to be proven by a peer reviewed and journal published research paper, doesn’t mean it isn’t efficacious. You leave no room for the fact that vested financial or professional interests sometimes constrain, shape and dictate the current medical dogma. You leave no room for the fact that good research is sometimes buried, never to see the light of day, because of those vested interests. The tobacco industry? The asbestos industry? And any number of studies that we may never know about. It happens! Look up research/medical fraud. You might be surprised. It’s now reached the point where blogs exist solely to cover retractions of published research. http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/
When considering the lack of knowledge, consider autoimmune disease. Medical dogma, for centuries, held that the body could not turn on itself and hence the very term ‘autoimmune disease’ was nonsense. It wasn’t until the 1950s that some research assistant discovered otherwise. And guess what? No one believed him. Not even the world famous immunologist for whom he worked. He replicated his research again and again and again until eventually his boss believed it. But even then, the greater medical community didn’t and it took 20 years, until the 1970s, for it to become widely accepted.
And that video above is nothing but propaganda, albeit very clever propaganda made and broadcast by an organisation whose members have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. For most of my life I believed firmly that vaccinations were a good thing. One of the best things you could do for a child. A God send, even. After much research (and I do have the skills to research effectively, even do my own meta analysis should I wish to) I no longer believe that. But neither do I believe they should be ruled out entirely. Do I have the definitive answer? No. But I have a heap of knowledge. Consider this: the incidence of autism spectrum disorders, autoimmune diseases and disorders (there are more than 80 of them) and allergies are rising exponentially in the western, vaccinated, world. Coincidence? I think not. And thanks to Bill and Melinda Gates I predict that in 20 to 30 years time we will see a corresponding rise in the incidence of these disorders in, what is currently, the third world. With regard to autism spectrum disorders my current theory is (and it may change with further research) that in genetically predisposed individuals, some vaccinations will trigger the development of the disorder.
For instances of when your trusted medical experts simply don’t know, look up Lorenzo’s Oil. Or when they get it wrong, consider Vioxx. Currently doctors are handing out statins like candy believing they’re a panacea. They’re not. The research is finally now coming out that indicates not only are they not as efficacious as we were led to believe, but can actually be harmful. There are those who have been saying this for years……but no one would listen. Big Pharma, anyone?
You denigrate google. All google (or rather, the internet) has done, in regard to this issue, is democratise information. All scientific journals are now accessible via the internet, even if it is through a restricted portal. And for those who don’t have access to those restricted portals, you’d be surprised what membership of a council owned library will give you access to. In years past, to access this information one would have to spend weeks sifting through vast amounts of information in a university library. Now it’s all available at the click of a button. Ain’t technology great? Your entire article, Mia, is like a clarion call for those with vested interests who don’t want others to have the knowledge. Much the same way the church didn’t like it when Gutenberg invented the printing press and started to mass produce the bible. Knowledge is power!
Mia, I’m glad you feel comfortable with trusting medical ‘experts’ with your life and the lives of your children. Me, I don’t have that same universal trust of the medical profession. Yes, they can be an invaluable source of advice, assistance and support (if you find the right ‘expert’ for you). However, they can also be WRONG, and often are. Cemeteries are full of doctors’ mistakes.
loading...
Thank you for illustrating Ms Freeman’s point so beautifully.
loading...
? which point? Ms Grumpy is making the point that the article is biased towards the medical establishment and science, when a more objective, critical and discerning mindset should be promoted.
loading...
How can anyone be biased toward science? It’s the greatest mechanism we have for figuring out what works and what doesn’t. The scientific process is what works. Not Googling.
loading...
As I’ve said before, the scientific process is a system of measuring/analysing data within it’s own measurable framework. Anything that falls outside of this framework simply doesn’t exist. So before science “figured out” lightning and thunder and whatever other natural phenomena did these things not exist?
loading...
Of course they existed, Michael. God did it.
loading...
Well I don’t want to approach this from a religious viewpoint, but why are we not open to the possibility that we are yet to understand many of “God’s” workings? If great minds like Einstein had a reverence and respect for this “realm of the mysterious” why is this now lacking in modern science? I have no problem with science, it is a truly wonderful tool, but will always be just that, a tool. A computer can process information far more efficiently than a human, but there is no doubt that there are powers in our universe far beyond a computer’s comprehension. Yet some of us overlook this, and put blind faith in science. This is my gripe.
loading...
Rick, you’re so right. Science is the best process we have for figuring out what works and what doesn’t and I have the greatest respect for science. But science is not infallible. And do you not think we can access the results of scientific research via the internet (google) for ourselves? Instead of relying all the time on others to interpret it for us? Or worse, not even taking into account the science they don’t like! It happens!
And, Rick, it would be really great if you stopped denigrating google in this fashion. It’s only a search engine and only one of many. Nothing more. Nothing less. If you have a problem with its search algorithms or search parameters, that’s another issue.
And finally, Rick, you’re an intelligent person, I know you don’t honestly believe that ALL science is always infallible?
loading...
Science is willing to admit when it is wrong. That’s the greatest thing about it. If evidence changes, so does the science. It’s not a belief system. It’s not dogmatic. It follows the clues. And sure, you can Google the research but you need to be able to understand it. There’s a crucial difference. That’s why scientists do the research and not, say, you or I. They know stats, they know what they are looking at, they know what it all means.
Science is a consensus. The vast majority trust vaccines work because it’s been proven time and time again by studies around the world and, the biggest study of all, the eradication of diseases like smallpox and in many countries, Polio.
loading...
PS. Sometimes, just sometimes, despite all the science in the world, and despite our own intellects, one is best served by listening to, what I believe is, our innate intuition. And that’s something everyone possesses despite their IQ score.
loading...
Rick, I had to reply to this (an earlier) post because it wouldn’t let me reply to the one in question further down the thread.
Science is NOT a consensus. If you believe otherwise then you are merely confusing a widely held belief with science. And while they are not mutually exclusive, they are not mutually inclusive either.
If a thousand people tell a lie, it’s still a lie.
loading...
Rick, you’re absolutely right when you say “Science is willing to admit when it is wrong. That’s the greatest thing about it. If evidence changes, so does the science.” I agree with this statement. But the only problem is that sometimes science is a little slow to admit that it’s wrong. What if this takes a few centuries, in the case of the flat earth theory? I realise that we’re talking hypothetically here, but if science does reach new findings that contradict earlier research in whatever field (vaccines for instance), what of all the “crazy people” who disputed the scientific evidence right from the beginning? You see the flaw in this system? What will science do then? “Sorry guys, we f__ed up – but we got it right now!” Obviously no system is perfect, and this is why “absolute devotion” to any one path is dangerous.
loading...
I can’t predict the future. But I *can* say that science already knows it is right. Ergo, polio and smallpox. The evidence is pretty stark.
loading...
Well I respect your devotion Rick.
loading...
Shelly, I’d be really appreciative if you could point out, in a little more detail, how it is exactly that you feel I’ve illustrated Ms Freeman’s point in any way.
loading...
You may have missed my comment below, as the comments disappear down the page. I would be interested in getting into specifics. If I don’t reply, it is due to time and work constraints, I’m sorry. I’m sure others will gladly discuss any points.
“Given that Mia’s article focussed specifically on the example of vaccination, can you cite some of the problems you have with immunisation? Thanks.”
loading...
Jane has replied to the “retracted papers” point.
I’ll make a quick comment about your accusations that Google has been “denigrated” by Mia. I don’t see that, I’m sorry.
Google is a wonderful search engine, and I’m sure Mia would agree with that. That’s not the point. The point is people using Google to assert that they have much expertise as people who have studied and trained in a discipline for years. See Dunning-Kruger Effect, again. That is the point.
Do you think it is presumptuous of someone to claim to be informed, by reading demonstrably incorrect information on the internet, then, claiming to have the same knowledge as the combined experts in any discipline, thereby granting themselves permission to denigrate that knowledge?
loading...
Now reasonablehank I agree you make some solid points, but I find it very interesting that you refer to this Dunning Kruger effect. My knowledge of this disorder extends to about 5 minutes of wikipedia study, but I can’t help but interpret this “disorder” very differently than how you’ve presented it in this forum. The “founders” of this disorder, Dunning and Kruger, quote Bertrand Russell as one of their “philosophical predecessors”; he says “One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.” I have a feeling that we interpret this quote quite differently from one another. My take on it is that a well educated person (or anyone for that matter) can develop an attitude of certainty regarding their beliefs (misguided or not), and it is in fact this attitude of certainty that restricts any further growth/development. This is why Russell refers to them as “stupid”. Yet the imaginative person (well educated or not) will always be in the process of re-thinking and re-working their beliefs, which explains the “..doubt and indecision”, which many would agree can be a “negative side-effect” of searching for answers from many different sources. I realise I’m way off topic here, and I don’t mean to turn this into a philosophical forum, but I’m interested in your point of view.
loading...
It’s pretty well summed up in the first wiki par.
People of lower ability often overestimate their abilities. It can be well applied to most pursuits. Read the comments section on any article.
Lots of really, really good drivers are accutely aware of their limitations, and drive appropriately.
Most drivers think they are really good drivers. Many people are worse than average (50%). Many, many drivers who think they are good drivers must be wrong, right?
Try and tell all of these people who are worse than average, yet think that they are better than average, that they are worse than average.
Duning and Kruger found the same in their research.
Contrary to what you have stated, the more “intelligent” (adept at their craft/pursuit) were less certain of their abilities (abilities for which they were shown to excel).
loading...
Thanks for the explanation; the driving example is a good one, I think we can all relate to it. But hold on just a sec… “Contrary to what you have stated, the more “intelligent” (adept at their craft/pursuit) were less certain of their abilities (abilities for which they were shown to excel).” This IS what I stated; “…Yet the imaginative person (well educated or not) will always be in the process of re-thinking and re-working their beliefs, which explains the “..doubt and indecision”, as in, doubting/underestimating their own abilities. Less certain of their abilities. OK I used the word “imaginative” because Russell categorised it this way, but essentially my comment is in line with yours. Is it not?
loading...
Sorry. Couldn’t comment on your reply (no room). I see your point. Thanks.
loading...
Ok, so we’re clear that we both interpret Bertrand Russell’s statement in more or less the same way. Ok then answer me this; Which statement do you believe is more accurate: Science, if personified, could best be described as A) a person “overcertain” of their own views/validity, and lacking in imagination.. or B) a person less certain of their own views yet full of imagination.. ? Kind of abstract, I know.
loading...
["Do you think it is presumptuous of someone to claim to be informed, by reading demonstrably incorrect information on the internet,..."]
If that’s what people were doing, then yes I’d agree that would indeed be presumptuous.
MY point is that not ALL people rely solely on GOOGLE! There are many sources of information available online. The exact same sources of information that the medical professionals (when they can be bothered) are accessing.
loading...
Isn’t Google just an engine to access this information, though?
You seem to have journal access, and you imply that you have the training to understand and critically analyse any given paper/study. Would this be accurate?
How many people doing their internet research have this ability? I don’t. I freely admit that right now.
For example, when you come across a paper, do you understand the intricacies of immunology/virology/epidemiology which would be required to understand and interpret that paper?
loading...
reasonablehank, I have tried several times to reply to this post but no matter how many times I try to post it, it simply won’t post. Don’t know what the problem is but I’m done now.
loading...
You state: “But I have a heap of knowledge. Consider this: the incidence of autism spectrum disorders, autoimmune diseases and disorders (there are more than 80 of them) and allergies are rising exponentially in the western, vaccinated, world. Coincidence? I think not”
Do you have some evidence to back up this claim? Thanks.
loading...
I think I fairly clearly said: *I* (meaning me and just me) *think* (cognition) *not* (negative). Ergo, it is MY theory. If the proof already existed, I would have noted it. But the absence of such proof today, does not preclude it’s existence tomorrow.
And IF it were to be proven, would all those people now speaking out against vaccinations be ‘nut cases’ or visionaries?
loading...
So, you have no evidence for your claim. It’s a theory.
Sounds like an Argument from Ignorance to me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
It’s also based on confusing correlation with causation, whch is common
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Both are fallacious arguments.
loading...
reasonablehank, this is a reply to your post with the wikipedia links in it – it doesn’t appear to have ‘reply’ button on it.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You have just proven my point with the link to the ‘fallacy in informal logic article.’ That is exactly what I have been saying: something is not true just because it hasn’t (yet) been proven false. E.g. the fact that no one has ever seen a pink swan doesn’t prove that pink swans don’t exist.
Never once have I stated that MY opinions on vaccinations and their correlation to increased incidences of certain diseases/disorders was the truth to end all truths.
The biggest fallacy in informal logic was made in the original article.
loading...
Beware of an amateur with their own theory. Even more so an amateur whose conclusion is based on correlation equals causation. Science is the professional approach to testing whether correlations are causative. Sorry Ms Grumpy, but your backyard speculation is worthless.
loading...
Rohan G, thank you and excuse me while I roll around the floor laughing. I knew someone would fall into that little trap. I very purposefully used the word ‘correlation’ because I knew someone just like you would come along crying that correlation doesn’t equal causation. I know it doesn’t. That’s exactly why I said ‘correlation’ and not ‘causation’.
This is the problem I’ve had all along, starting with the original article: there seems to be this erroneous assumption that we ‘ordinary’ people do not have enough intelligence to become sufficiently informed in order to make our own medical decisions – based on the advise from the experts and our OWN research SHOULD we wish to do so.
And, Rohan G, what? – you don’t have ANY theories of your own about ANY topic outside of a possible area of expertise?
loading...
Sorry, the above post is from me (Ms Grumpy). I’m not ‘logged in’ and I simply forgot to put it into the ‘name’ box at the time of posting. I wasn’t attempting to engage in any subterfuge.
loading...
“This is the problem I’ve had all along, starting with the original article: there seems to be this erroneous assumption that we ‘ordinary’ people do not have enough intelligence to become sufficiently informed in order to make our own medical decisions – based on the advise from the experts and our OWN research SHOULD we wish to do so.”
A strawman argument. We don’t say the general public lacks the intelligence to make decisions about their health. We say that the information well has been shat in by AVN and fellow travellers and that this poses a clear and present danger to public health. Antivaxers use the laguage of informed choice while trying their utmost to spread misinformation which sabotages the capacity of the public to actually make an informed decision. Unfortunately yes, many people out there lack the skills to differentiate between reliable scientifically based information and the appeals to emotion propaganda that comes from antivacination demagogues. Quite a few also have an antiscience prejudice that predisposes them to accepting the lies that AVN seek to propagate.
loading...
What strawman? The original article very strongly implied that the general public don’t have the intelligence to research information in order to make informed decision. If you don’t see that implication, then I suggest you re-read it with an unbiased eye.
And you say “We don’t say the general public lacks the intelligence to make decisions about their health.” And then later you say that if the general public were to read certain information, it “….sabotages the capacity of the public to actually make an informed decision.”
Really? So none of us non-medical people have the capacity to consider the source of the information? And if we’re unfamiliar with the source to then research it (the source). Personally, I have no idea what the AVN have to say, and I don’t really care. They’re not a source I’d go to for informaiton. But I imagine if people are googling such topics, AVN isn’t the only source of information that shows up. (In fact, I just googled ‘vaccinations’ and AVN is only one result of the search on the first page).
Why are you so afraid, given our extremely high vaccination rates, of what this AVN mob and their ilk have to say? Either you’re just as much of an alarmist about them, as they are supposedly about vaccinations, or your arrogance knows no bounds.
And who is ‘we’? As in ” We don’t say …” and “We say that the information well has been shat in…” Is the ‘we’ here Mamamia? Are you posting as a Mamamia staffer or contributor?
loading...
Ms Grumpy – the article doesn’t imply that the general public are unintelligent. It says that they don’t have the training and knowledge to read, interpret and understand what they’re reading. That’s not an attack on anyone’s intelligence. It’s asking people to consider their limitations and acknowledge them, and to acknowledge that they can’t be experts on something just by reading a few links in their spare time.
loading...
Hahahahahahahahahaha. No, not at all. Because “I’d need more space and a wheelie bin full of rescue remedy.” just screams how intelligent the author thinks the people she’s referring to are. And the only reason to mention that the poor unfortunate colleague left school at 16 was to imply his lack of intelligence. Did you think it was just a minor detail? An interesting tidbit about said colleague? Hahahahahahahahahaha
loading...
I think you’re the one drawing the implication that leaving school at 16 suggests a lack of intelligence. My Mum, Dad, Uncles, all left school at or before 16. They’re all intelligent. Back in the day, it was just what you did if you were from a working class background. Plumbers, Hairdressers, Electricians, Mechanics aren’t unintelligent. They leave school and do apprenticeships before getting their HSC, because they don’t need to. Do you question any of them based on something you found on the net?
To mention that someone left school at 16 is to make the point that they haven’t been to Uni, studied medicine, with particular reference to immunology, and based their decision on studies and reviews of said studies, or anything worth a scrap. The decision was based on some video about how Big Pharma makes money and a bit of reading.
Lack of education and lack of intelligence are two very different things.
loading...
“Lack of education and lack of intelligence are two very different things.”
I couldn’t agree with your more! In fact, Kris, I’m pretty sure,100% confident, that I made that exact same point in my very first post on this article.
You really don’t need to mention what age someone left school to indicate they haven’t been to uni. Simply say they don’t hold a degree in any discipline. That’s a far simpler statement and much more direct in meaning (if the meaning was what you believe).
I see the use of the ‘left school at 16′ quote far differently than you. And that’s ok, but obviously the two of us are never going to agree as to the intended purpose of using it so I think we will simply have to agree to disagree.
loading...
I’m pretty sure your point was that because you consider yourself intelligent, you are able to “research” stuff on the interwebs and know how to interpret and understand it.
I’m saying that you can be intelligent, but that only gets you so far in understanding what you’re reading if you haven’t been educated correctly to know what you’re reading, what it means and what implications it has.
Medical terminology is a good one for alarming people unnecessarily. It’s full of very stark, scary sounding terms that actually aren’t describing something that bad. Particularly good at freaking pregnant women out. People EDUCATED in medicine know HOW to read this stuff and how scary or worrying it should be. Intelligent people know when to defer to the educated people’s knowledge.
loading...
Regarding retracted papers – in all retracted research( which is actually 0.035% of the hundreds of thousands of papers published every year) error was more common than fraud (73.5% of papers were retracted for error (or an undisclosed reason) vs 26.6% retracted for fraud).
Less than 0.01%.
J Med Ethics 2011;37:249-253
That makes roughly 99.97% of published peer reviewed research papers legitimate.
loading...
Given that Mia’s article focussed specifically on the example of vaccination, can you cite some of the problems you have with immunisation? Thanks.
loading...
reasonablehank, I think I pretty much covered what my concerns are with vaccination in my initial response. And yet, I am not anti-vaccine. I get a flu shot every year.
loading...
No, you didn’t really. You made a long general comment about how bad medicines can be (yes, sometimes they can be), and that graveyards are full of medical errors (yes, there are some medical errors in graveyards).
I would posit that graveyards are probably more full of deaths from infectious diseases, and other reasons, like, death from all of the other causes from which people die.
I would like to hear specifics of the concerns you have with immunisation, substantiated with references. Thanks.
loading...
OT, a little, but do you have a blog?
http://naturalmamanz.blogspot.com.au/
loading...
People are living longer so we must be doing something right. Our life styles are less healthy but we are living longer with better quality of life.
I really do see the miracle of western medicine every day.
Do G.P over prescribe drugs sometimes? Yes – aspirin, statins and PPI’s( Losec for example) are all examples of over use highlighted in the media lately and while this is a good point it does not negate the fact they have improved the quality and length of life of millions of people.
Drug reps are partly to blame as they load the G.P’s with sample for patients and really push the benefits without really highlight the degree of benefit.
Vaccines really do save lives and wipe out diseases. I really feel a lot of the autism/ vaccine thing is hard to pin point as a cause as life style factors, diet and increased diagnosis( just because it was recognised and recorded).
While I don’t agree with your degree of scepticism I can see your point. I just really don’t think vaccines cause autism.
I worry when people have already made up their minds on an emotional issue the just look for evidence to support their view without a clear head. On both sides of the argument.
loading...
You’re university educated, right, Miss Grumpy? So surely you would recognise this:
“No one believed him. Not even the world famous immunologist for whom he worked. He replicated his research again and again and again until eventually his boss believed it. But even then, the greater medical community didn’t and it took 20 years, until the 1970s, for it to become widely accepted.” as peer review at work, would you not?
Google has democratised information – you’re absolutely right about that. But what it has also done is allow anyone to google something and have 100000s of pages come up. Then loons like the AVN and their buddies come up first with an official sounding name, and the misinformation spreads. And spreads. Ironically, like a virus.
What is your current research schedule for your ASD theory? Is it part of a PhD or Masters or something?
Or is your research just going to consist of looking stuff up on google when the mood takes you?
loading...
From my reading of journal articles, they may well be a genetic predisposition to ASDs which may be triggered by a miriad of environmental factors. But the proven link between vaccines and ASDs is not confirmed.
The earth is so contaminated – the water we drink; the air we breathe; the houses we live in; there are chemicals everyone; electro-magnetic radiation; background radiation. We are contaminating our babies in-utero with a cocktail of environmental contaminants – contaminants that linger in the atomsophere from decades ago. Like many other health problems -I think it will be unlikely that a single cause will be proven but rather a multifactorial aetiology. Eventually scientific research will uncover the mysteries as to why some people develop ASDs (and autoimmune disorders) and hopefully will lead to better understanding and helping people with ASD reach their potential. Some of the stated reasons the incidence is reported to be increasing is a much better understanding of ASDs; definition and descriptions of ASDs; reporting and diagnosis.
We need more articles on experts on ASDs to debunk some myths and educate the public.
loading...
Ms Grumpy, you seem to have a contempt for the medical establishment, because you paint every scenario as this dogmatic fascism coupled with some rather salient sadistic traits of the practitioners thereof.
I hate to tell you this but you’ve got a lot of facts wrong, and your lack of insight into the scientific method and how it is practised is palpable.
What you’re writing reads more like propagandist material that attempts to demonise a perceived antagonist than a breakdown of actual (and factual) events surrounding scientific breakthroughs.
loading...
Hi Mia,
I am writing to you today after I was drawn to your article about vaccination. But recently we have had, again, a bad experience with your trusty science & I thought you should know how nature and patience and mothering the way it should be, actually works. Our not quite 2 year old has recently had a nasty growth form on his precious little scalp. We went to the skin ‘specialist’ who rec we use a very expensive cream OR drug him up, to over 4 times ‘what you would normally give him when you go on a plane or long car trip’ and your husband & my 2 nursed can hold him down to scrape it off. There will be lots of screaming and blood but it should do the trick!’! We just smiled, happy that it wasn’t cancer and only a growth that can be ‘dealt with’. But we have never & will never ourselves ‘drug up’ our boys. Would you? So then as always, I researched this magic cream he prescribed, ‘that may or may not actually do the job’. And so discovered that it was not only extremely dangerous for children & broken skin, it wasn’t used for the under 2 yr olds either. So, as usual, I went off to see my herbalist/homeopath, I had an appt already booked for myself luckily, otherwise we may have had to pray for a cancellation! People come from all over Australia to see her, but we are always given free assistance over the phone as her office is professionally staffed also . And so, we are having great success with her treatment, and in only 2 weeks the growth has died right back and will soon fall off, just as she had explained it would. I just hope that you, truly research your topics properly, as you would have learnt at Uni or during your extensive career. Maybe you research more about what toaster or car to buy rather than your children’s health as sadly, many parents seem to busy themselves with these days. It’s a tragic shame and with your blog I am fearful of your advice going out to the masses without you first speaking to informed specialist s in the natural therapies field.
You may be surprised what you will learn!
Ps my husband and I work extremely hard to keep our children well. Both of our boys, an 8 yr old and our nearly 2 year old angels have NEVER had to take antibiotics, or ever spent a night in hospital, and I am very proud that we can keep them happy and well to reach their full potential in a very sick world.
Monica Renaud Cronulla
loading...
Yes, Meryl Dorey also posted your anecdote on her blog. Nice of a homeopth to do consultations over the phone. Some would consider that highly unethical, and potentially dangerous.
loading...
You must be the husband of mia or someone who has way too much time on your hands to have a reply for every person who writes something that does not suit your view. You will find that people will always be non-vaxers and vaxers you may need to accept this and move on… Even before google and computers people did not vaccinate due to intuition something that it seems you would also have something to say about as science can not prove that it exists.
Janet
loading...
Yep, because I ask people to substantiate their claims and attach themselves to some semblance of ethical rigour, I am therefore Mia’s husband. You got me there. Go you.
loading...
Hi Janet, it would seem that the irony of you posting to Reasonablehank within 11 minutes of his post is completely lost on you.
But thank you for taking the time to draw the conversation away from over-confidence stemming from minimal knowledge to personal attacks.
loading...
So you think they are immune to infectious diseases because you work extremely hard?
Interesting.
You should pop in to a children’s hospital and explain to the families in there that all they need to do is work really hard and then their children will be happy and able to reach their full potential.
loading...
It’s not only the extremely hard work, Nora. They love their kids more too!
loading...
I support alternative medicine (well naturopaths, chiro, acupuncture. Not homeopaths because I think they are crazy people) but this debate has nothing to do with alternative medicine.
I’m glad your child was cured of his growth, but until your herbalist can cure polio your comment has nothing to do with immunisation
loading...
Hi Monica. I was just wondering why it is easier to accept without question an unresearched, untested, untrialled treatment from a homeopath, but question & investigate advice from a trained medical professional?
I work hard to keep my (vaccinated) children healthy too. Never needed antibiotics or hospital either. Don’t you feel lucky that there are so many others prepared to take the ‘risk’ of vaccinating so that your children are then protected via herd immunity?
loading...
Untested & untried? You need to study up on your history more lovely. Been used a lot longer than medical science! When women begged to birth in the street for fear of hospital infections that would kill them….there’s a world out there…
loading...
What has been used a lot longer? Homeopathy? Wasn’t it invented in the early 1800s? A lot later than the beginnings of modern medicine. As for studying up on my history, no clinical trials I have researched have produced any positive results. They’ve actually shown that there is no medical condition for which homeopathy has been proven to be an effective treatment.
I think this might answer my original question. Maybe the reason people don’t question & investigate side effects & drug interactions from homeopathic treatments is because they actually have no effect?
loading...
I note that you have promoted Meryl Dorey’s talks on your website Monica – so you are a supporter of the AVN presumably.
Would you agree then that no-one should be vaccinated? Is that just in Australia? Or the world? Or is it just your children? And what would be the ouctome of noone vaccinating?
loading...
Mia, normally I would disagree & say that it might not be such a bad thing for a person to perform some research if unsure. In this case you are right however. How can anyone expect to find balanced, useful information when all the anti-vax movement seems to peddle is fear & urban myths from confirmed liars & frauds?
loading...
I think Mia’s passion about the topic got the better of her and she revealed some of her prejudice by dropping the ‘left school at 16′ line – perhaps trying to tie anti-vaxers in with lack of education, ignorance etc. Also, the story of her former co-worker trailed off without any description of what happened with his daughter’s health (post-decision not to vaccinate) which I thought was the whole point of the story, seeing that Mia was using him as an example of what ‘not to do’.
loading...
The guy left school at 16. There is no prejudice there. It is a fact that he is not trained in immunology or epidemiology. He relied on anti-vaccination nonsense to make health decisions which leave his child vulnerable. He accessed the anti-vaccination nonsense on the internet. He believed he was getting accurate advice. He wasn’t.
His daughter was likely protected by herd immunity, due to most other contacts being immunised. Herd immunity is funny like that.
Why do untrained people think they know more than trained people? Here is a good description:
“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which the unskilled suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
loading...
Wikipedia as a source for an out of context quote? I’m not convinced by that!
loading...
And what is the context of the quote that you think would change its meaning?
As it stands the quote is part of the discussion section of the paper, and encapsulates the core finding of the research. Have you read it?
loading...
On one hand we have the Religion of Science and on the other we have God.
Most of us live somewhere in the middle and question.
If you accept without question you are an idiot.
loading...
Except that the belief in God relies on faith (100%) and science relies on evidence and peer review.
loading...
I feel it necessary to point out that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection and all accompanying amazing things he did (such as raising the dead) are detailed in the Bible by eyewitness testimony, which is primary evidence. If one cared to, one could observe by studying the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John that Jesus did these things to prove he is God. We have both full copies and fragments of these books dating from approximately 30 years after Jesus’ death (well within the lifetimes of their authors); more proof than for many other historical figures who are readily accepted in history. It all seems to revolve around who Jesus is and whether or not he proved he is God. After carefully examining the eyewitness evidence and even extra-Biblical evidence (such as the writing of Josephus, the Jewish historian), I for one am convinced. Pithy comments like this don’t cut it anymore. Back to the actual topic…
loading...
Your comment is incorrect. None of the books that make up the New Testament were written directly by eyewitnesses, or scribes for eyewitnesses.
The earliest known manuscripts were written over 100 years after the attested death of the Jesus of Nazareth. The majority are around the 300 AD mark.
This means that the entire christian religion is based on non-eyewitness accounts.
And given your proclivity towards christianity, I’d like you to share with us all the language that they were written in.
Roman Empire. Shouldn’t be hard.
loading...
This is the funniest comment I have ever read on mamamia.
The bible is eyewitness evidence? Boy, do you need to do some research!
loading...
Well said, m! I wish I could ‘like’ you comment a hundred times.
loading...
Missing the point of the Like button. Your view is not worth more than mine because you feel extra strongly.
Same as missing the point of the article?
loading...
Mia, I can’t seem to find the figures that supports the view that so many people are not vaccinating anymore. Looking at the figures from the Australian immunisation register, compliance rates are extremely high and for fully immunised children under 15 months, all states apart from NT are well over 90%. So what gives?
http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/patients/acir/statistics.jsp#N1002D
loading...
Page 18 Adult Vaccination Survey
“The 2009 survey, for the first time, asked about the pertussis vaccination status of adults, including the year vaccinated as an adult or adolescent. From the survey, it is estimated that around one in nine adult Australians (11.3%) have been vaccinated against pertussis as an adult or adolescent (Table 3.5)”
http://hw.libsyn.com/p/7/0/b/70b73d1128175b36/adult_vaccination_2009.pdf?sid=9ee08903084722c386bc035799d1ad3b&l_sid=22494&l_eid=&l_mid=2838378&expiration=1332216627&hwt=295e73979f58ae1a6f2e0dea6b3e59cf
“Immunisation Coverage by Division of General Practice
NORTHERN RIVERS GENERAL PRACTICE NETWORK – 81.8%
EASTERN SYDNEY DIVISION OF GENERAL PRACTICE – 81.4%”
http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/incentives/gpii/files/feb-2012-national-division-ranking.pdf
loading...
Thank you Mia for illustrating so clearly the difference between those that choose to vaccinate or not to vaccinate due to deeply and thoroughly investigating the matter and those that blindly vaccinate due to ignorance. You should be embarrassed that you are so happy to be ignorant and are willing to out-source thinking for yourself. Even those that inform themselves on the scientific facts of the dangers and side effects but still decide to vaccinate have the decency to respect those who choose not to vaccinate as they are truly informed and understand the difficulties surrounding this choice. Intolerant people like you are dangerous and obviously have no grasp on the true realities of the issue. To those that talk of the non-vaccinated endangering others and spreading disease if you bothered to read any medical journals at all you would discover that there is strong scienitific proof that it is the vaccinated that are keeping these diseases alive. If you believe vaccination works then get vaccinated and you should have nothing to fear. To those that talk of their friends and relatives that have died or contacted diseases such as measles for everyone of those I can tell you of someone I know that has died from a vaccine, lost a child to a vaccine, has a child that is permanently damaged by a vaccine or in the the case of my neice, is now an insulin dependent diabetic at 8 years old due to the polio vaccine.
There is a reason this is such a controversial issue. Take your blinders off and open your eyes.
loading...
So Sil, you claim that people who have confidence in vaccination do so blindly and out of ignorance – oh, unless they are the special sort who have respect for the antivaccinationist creed. So one’s depth of awareness about this issue correlates postively with respect for Meryl Dorey’s AVN? You are talking nonsense.
loading...
Rohan G you have made some wild assumptions. I have made no reference to the AVN or Meryl Doery. You seem to be under the impression that the only person anywhere that speaks out about vaccines is Ms Dorey. Check out the International Medical Council on Vaccination or read the many books available written by doctors and scientists alike who damn the vaccination movement and have done since Jenner started killing people with the Small Pox vaccine. Yes, it was banned from use in Europe all those years ago as it was killing more people than the diease itself – but then you should know that if you had investigated this issue.
loading...
Unsubstantiated drivel. Back up your claims.
loading...
I would take the time to fill this post with references and links and quotes from highly qualified scientists and doctors that I have gathered over the past 20 plus years, but I won’t as of the many things I have learnt throughout my life, one is learning to easily recognize people that have no interest in seeking information to discern and learn, but instead seek to destroy. Your purpose here is not to engage in conversation, or debate even, and be a part of the sharing of ideas but it is to lampoon anything at all that is put forward that does not fit with your beliefs. I have encountered people like you all over. You have no intention of looking impartially at any information that is presented to you and I believe that can be for only one of two reasons, or both: your belief system is hanging on by a thread and you can’t bear the thought that perhaps, just perhaps there is some sliver of truth to what is being said, and/or secondly, you have a financial interest in the vaccine industry. If you are truly a ‘truth seeker’ then I encourage you to have the courage to look beyond yourself. Most people who question vaccines started off believing in them wholeheartedly, but events in their life forced them to rethink. Sadly, I feel you are likely to go to your grave upholding the virtues of vaccines without even being fully educated on their weaknesses as well as their strengths. Unless, you too experience a life changing event that will cause you to question and as I wouldn’t wish that on anyone, I will wish you well and hope that one day you will be daring enough to open your mind to the possibly that there is more to this issue than you allow people to express. As for me, I will waste no further time and energy on this blog.
loading...
Haters gonna hate.
loading...
Why not start us off though? Or do you need specific questions so you can go and get the references and never be heard of again?
Classic anti-vaxxer nuttery. I have PROOF but you’re too CLOSED MINDED to listen so I WON’T post my PROOF.
loading...
, I can’t even find the words to explain how ridiculous this comment is!
loading...
Sorry, comment from Sil, that is!
loading...
Oh come on Mary, there’s no shortage of words to describe how ridiculous it is.
loading...
Such an interesting discussion.
I do think that it is most interesting that all those people who spend their time researching vaccinations and its links to autism, don’t spend the same amount of time researching the effects of measles, mumps, chickenpox, diptheria, hepititus, polio, whooping cough etcetera, etcetera…
My best friend’s brother died of measles, a colleague cannot have children because of mumps, a school friend is deaf in one ear because of mumps, and I have worked with a number of people who have polio disabilities.
And if you don’t think that I have looked at the other side of the arguement, my grandson has been diagnosed with broad spectrum autism. And as a result of his diagnosis, we now know that his father and grandfather both had broad spectrum autism. I will not be at all surprised if someone finds a genetic link. When my son was growing up, we just thought that he was a difficult child.
And seeing both sides, I would absolutely choose to vaccinate. Anyone who has sat with a sick child night after night, could not possilbly choose any other option.
loading...
When I was pregnant with my first child I had all sorts of ideas about the type of parent I wanted to be.. Cloth nappies, exclusively breastfed, no dummies, no plastic toys, no tv, etc. etc.
And then I had a baby and I learn my lesson.. You do whatever you can to make life easier. And if that means popping your 1year old in front of the television for 5minutes while you have a shower then so be it.
The point of my story is that when before I became a parent I thought quite seriously about not vaccinating my children (I’m embarrassed to admit that now) but I remember talking to the nurse at my local childhood clinic and she said “your decision to not vaccinate would be fine if your child was the only one that was affected, but what if your non vaccinated 3 year old gets measles (for example) and passes it on to a friends newborn baby (who is too young to have the vaccination) and that baby dies. How would you ever forgive yourself?” Vaccination is not just about protecting your own child, it’s about protecting your whole community.
loading...
To vaccinate or not to vaccinate – do what you want as long as it doesn’t affect others. And if you make the decision not to vaccinate your children, please be open about it – tell every parent of children your child is in contact with (as well as anyone who is elderly or immune impaired). Whilst you may think chickenpox and the like are a normal and natural part of childhood, many other parents don’t and they need to be able to make an informed decision about letting your child interact with their child. I say this because a friend’s baby just caught chickenpox from unvaccinated child whose mother failed to tell her was not vaxxed.
loading...
I was following the AVN facebook page yesterday. Some poor lady dared to question why they feel the need to be so nasty and she was promptly labelled a troll then abused for…well I’m not even sure what for…she stated quite clearly she just popped in to see their side. Nice.
loading...
This happens all the time, Nora. AVN satisfies the criteria of a cult. Asking the wrong sort of questions on their page will result in one being labelled a troll, abuse and the banhammer coming down very promptly. In pointing out their cult-like nature I will be accused of personal abuse by Dorey and her followers. The martydom posture is time and time again how Dorey avoids the substance of accusations against her and her network.
loading...
Michael R Jensen ND has a habit of creating these posters to defame people with whom he disagrees. He is a friend of Meryl Dorey. He likes to infer that he is a doctor. He is a NSW South Coast homeopath who denies the germ theory of disease (ie: germs don’t make you sick).
This is the sunshine and lollipops of the anti-vaccine movement. Antivaxers are nice, hey.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003034077696
loading...
kim wrote
Whenever I come across a person with this way of thinking I think of Pollyanna. If anyone doesn’t know about Pollyanna here is a definition of her thinking:
Pollyanna
Pollyanna tells the story of Pollyanna Whittier, a young girl who goes to live with her wealthy Aunt Polly after her father’s death. Pollyanna’s philosophy of life centers around what she calls “The Glad Game”: she always tries to find something to be glad about in every situation.
In the current definition, pollyannaish thinking implies that one ignores or refuses to recognize negative events. This is not a characteristic of thinking positively.
I got it from the web!!
Over thirty years ago (closer to 40) I was already doing a lot of research on Vaccination .
I was also researching other health related issues -and this was well before the internet made it
easier for me to find scientific and medical papers, articles and books so that I could be informed -mainly by scientists and doctors.
I drive and maintain my car -but I am not a mechanic, I use Chiropractors, Naturapaths, Dieticians, Acupuncturists -despite the fact that many doctors do not agree with these and other health practitioners. I do research, I ask questions, and I make my own mind up if a treatment works on me or not and whether I spend my money on this or that! And I do not agree that present day vaccinations are
anywhere near risk free -
I believe the record shows that there are both short term and long term side effects and the public needs to hear both sides of the argument before sacrificing their children on this particular medical altar .
image.
Molech -child sacrifice.
Sadly the Pollyannas of this world are easily mislead by anyone with a white coat ( like the scientists who work for Monsanto and say to poor Indian farmers “trust us -GMO crops will make you rich!) and the priest with the pocket full of lollies!
I liked Gorbachov’s saying “Trust–but verify” and I raised my kids to use the brains God gave them and not just follow like Lemmings over a cliff.
No, there is no help for this kind of individual -they want to just put their complete trust in the so called educated ones . Not so long ago -these ones attacked those who questioned the flat earth theory, they
are responsible for thousands of deaths every year due to iatrogenic causes.
i·at·ro·gen·ic/īˌatrəˈjenik/
Adjective:
Of or relating to illness caused by medical examination or treatment.
I got that from the web too!
Sorry Pollyanna -I’ll keep checking information by using books I have bought, reading magazines and journals and Yes -Using the Internet -with intelligence and skill.
One more thing: It is extremely narrow minded to suggest that everyone that does not agree with “Mia’s” Pollyanna (myopic)type view of vaccination – must be like this “lovely guy she knew who left school at 16 (must be uneducated and stupid!) and didn’t vaccinate his first child because it was a government scam.
Come on….Mia ,
A few years ago, I worked with a lovely guy who had left school at 16. When his wife had their first child, he “did his research” and they decided not to vaccinate their daughter. At the time, everyone around him insisted it was safe (and vital), but he was adamant. “I’ve read a lot about this and I watched this amazing video,” he insisted. “Vaccinations are just a way for big companies and the government to make money.”
cheers
loading...
Mortality (mor-tal-ity): when one dies from a disease
Morbidity (mor-bid-ity): the effects of a disease, both used in statistics.
See how patronising that came across?
Just say you didn’t vaccinate and be done with it. Oh, and thank those of us (apparently sheeple) who did for taking the risks on themselves or their kids and protecting you and yours.
loading...
Copy/paste alert.
loading...
Good article on vaccination but you missed a crucial point: Selfish.
Because that is what the people who choose not to vaccinate are. Selfish because they are not prepared to take the minute risk that exists of an adverse reaction so they are free loading on those that do take the risk.
I carry a smallpox scar and was fully vaccinated, so were my kids but they don’t have a smallpox scar because of the risks that millions and millions of people took when they were vaccinated. We took the risk and therefore provide a safer environment for those who don’t.
If even one extra vaccination comes from the article it is a winner. Letting people know that life is a risk and that vaccination risk, while real, is minute is an important part of the message. Not to take this risk is selfish in the extreme with potentially devastating consequences for those who are unvaccinated when a breakthrough strain of the disease occurs.
I was born & brought up in Kenya so I have seen the effects of some of these preventable diseases on both children and adults. It is horrific.
loading...
Misguided might be a better term then selfish as they really feel they are doing the best thing.
loading...
“feel”
- Precisely. Their feelings trump evidence to the contrary. The point of the article.
loading...
Geez reasonablehank, aren’t these human emotions a pain in the arse? All these pointless and irrational feelings, none of which are accurately verified by science! Wouldn’t it be better if we could just kill off the pesky part of the population that are “possessed” and leave the world in the hands of the logical rational human beings? Would that be a good solution?
loading...
Nice Strawman, Michael. What it has to do with the evidence for the benefits of vaccination I’m not so sure.
loading...
Science is not one basket, not one person – it is millions of researchers all looking at different theories. When all these different people are coming up with the same response then it’s a pretty safe bet that you can trust it. Yes, be critical when hearing about research and by all means get a second (or 3rd and 4th) opinion for your medical needs – but all this saying that Scientists are only one side of the debate is ignorant.
loading...
Oh wow. You claim ‘not to know everything’ yet this article actually screams the opposite. And you sound like you have a set of blinkers on.
I am not pro or anti vaccination – but I avoid taking all my information from one source. Science is not and will never be able to claim to be flawless.
I’m not even going to add much else as I think most of the comments here are quite good as it is.
What I will add is that my mother is a scientific research assistant. She spent 5 years working for a well known scientist who had discovered a new chemical reaction and was about to have it published in his book. Her task was to replicate the reaction. She tried again and again and again and never managed to replicate it. Nor did her colleagues. They were fired as the book went to print.
loading...
Oh Mia! Where to start? Like yourself I know that I don’t know everything. What I do know is that my only vaccinated child is developmentally delayed, has a chronic seizure condition and has no independent living skills at age 7 and my only un-vaccinated child is super healthy and thriving beyond that of his peers. I’m not suggesting here that my vaccinated child is vaccine injured, but that’s just it, even if I were suggesting it, who the hell is going to substantiate my claims??? That’s the dilemma that parents who suspect vaccine injury face. The local GP isn’t about to commit professional suicide by ‘looking into it’! Are you kidding me? The odds are stacked against the families of vaccine injured children. Think yourself lucky if you’re children have been spared and give a thought for the families whose children have suffered as a result of being vaccinated, they may be the minority, but there are many.
To claim that vaccines provide immunity is a lie. Whooping cough epidemics occur every year in the ‘vaccinated’ population and doesn’t everyone know someone who got the flu after the shot.
Perhaps the argument shouldn’t be whether vaccines are right or wrong, in my opinion it should be ‘why can vaccines cause harm and what can we do to prevent it’. The very real truth is that vaccines do cause harm, the evidence is overwhelming and many countries such as the U.S and the U.K have paid out millions in vaccine injury compensation claims. Yet to speak out in ‘the lucky country’ is, shall I say, TABOO! Why is that? Who will stand up and speak out for these families when they don’t have a voice? The Saba Buttons of this world need to be heard.
As for me, just because a bunch of scientists have decided that injecting ourselves with a cocktail of chemicals is the best way to stay healthy should not mean that I have to defend my right to choose. I don’t live in fear of the consequences of not vaccinating because health IS my priority and I know now how to keep my kids healthy (I’m no hippie from Lismore either). I actually devote my time to educating myself on the one thing that really matters, health…..The medical ‘industry’ has got everyone running scared. Most major diseases had declined dramatically prior to the introduction of vaccines according to Commonwealth statistics and didn’t we as a species survive for thousands of years without any medical intervention? In my opinion vaccines are still an experiment, not one that I choose to play a part in anymore. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket and expect science to have all the answers, after all, our beliefs change when faced with new evidence, what makes you think science is any different. Below is just one of the many MD’s who have been willing to go on the record.
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/21/obstetrician-dr-nancy-banks-on-infant-sacrifice-a-k-a-vaccination/
loading...
Yes, just reading your link screams unbiased source! Not
Well I’m off to work in a horrid vaccinating place.
Have a good day.
loading...
That Nancy Banks video is an embarrassment. The IMCV (vaccination council) defend baby murderers, claiming that Shaken Baby Syndrome is a vaccine reaction. Nice.
Meryl Dorey also defends baby murderers, claiming the repugnant “Shaken Maybe Syndrome” as a wonderful alternate description (“Shaken Maybe Syndrome” was suggested to her by her husband, Ken Dorey).
http://reasonablehank.com/2012/02/11/shaken-maybe-syndrome/
loading...
Missing the point people! Sigh
loading...
Make a point, with reputable substantiation to your point, and paragraph. Thanks.
loading...
Siege mentality (no-one will believe my claims anyway), strange linkage of your kid’s issues with vaccines (but then you claim you don’t link them). All it shows is that you have 2 kids, one with developmental delays and one without.
Vaccination is high among kids but wanes as we get older as people don’t realise that we need boosters for some things. Like whooping cough. But I’m sure in all your research you’ve learnt about that, right?
If you devote your time to educating yourself, are you doing a degree in medical research of some kind?
Or do you count sitting in front of Google and looking at the AVN, that silly vaccination council site, Mercola or Tenpenny’s “info” while they extol the virtues of their snake oil when you think to “devoting your time to educating yourself”.
loading...
Still no-one gets my point. My daughters condition is complicated so I’m not going to go into it here. All I am trying to do is shine a light on a topic that people are refusing to acknowledge. The issue that lies at the heart of alot of the non-vaccinators decision is vaccine injury. If you have a child who has been vaccine injured, the pain runs deep, so please save your surly judgements and remarks for another topic. Both sides have very vaild concerns. Period. Get over yourselves.
loading...
“I’m not suggesting here that my vaccinated child is vaccine injured”
How would you know what it is like then?
Did you even try to ask your doctor about it? And not just assume he will dismiss your claims?
loading...
While I empathise with your situation, your non-blind “study” of your own 2 children doesn’t really have any credibility.
It’s like saying that because we lived in NSW when my first child (who has no allergies) was born , and we lived in Queensland when our second child (who has allergies) was born, Queensland causes allergies.
Clearly, that ‘s rubbish, which is why researchers use large studies with large control groups to actually determine real results.
loading...
How much time and energy is wasted being put into promoting the disproven link between vaccines and autism – when imagine the good that could be done if all that passion was put towards the current ongoing research to find the actual cause of autism.
loading...
I was raised by a nurse (mother) and a doctor (father). Dad graduated SCL from Princeton and served as chief of staff for 4 hospitals before he died. I have 4 brothers and sisters, all of us unvaccinated. In typical fashion, I see a lot of insults and emotionally charg condemnation here for parents who choose not to vaccinate. And whenever people jump straight to bashing characters, instead of citing the science of the counterpoint (yes, there are real studies that have been going on for decades which argue against vaccinations), it usually means there is more truth to the situation.
In my case as a parent of 3, we chose some vaccinations and declined others. We sought our physician’s guidance on the most critical vaccine, but opted not to sign our kids up for the dozens and dozens of generally recommended vaccines. This isn’t just about autism studies which, indeed that link has never been definitively proven. It’s about whether or not parents choose to inject toxic material into our babies bodies. It is also about the importance of choice, including religion and personal health.
Incidentally I and my 4 brothers and sisters have always been radiantly healthy. We hardly ever get sick.
Most likely my comment will be trashed. You’ll probably slam my father and my own decisions. But if you look into the altar of medical research, you’ll find a story of confidence and revision. If women blindly trusted the science of medicine, even in the last 40 years, we would have a very different picture of birth in this country. Remember night sweats? Binding?
Look it is important we have these discussions, but let’s do so with respect and understanding. If you want more parents to vaccinate, stop trashing their character and consider that it may be much bigger than google.
loading...
So beautifully written! I am not sure what constitutes a ‘member’ of the AVN, but I certainly read and value their information and opinions. I do respect Meryl Dory but don’t necessarily agree with her on everything. Will I vax my child? Definitely not at 6 weeks old! Maybe after they are one when they are in optimal health. But I will continue to do my own research- from all sorts of avenues, including but not limited to the internet and the AVN. I am ‘pro choice’ in every sense of the word.
loading...
“Will I vax my child? Definitely not at 6 weeks old! Maybe after they are one when they are in optimal health.”
When a huge proportion of vaccine preventable deaths happen in under-1s, you will have missed the most valuable time for being vaccinated by waiting until after your child is one!
“my own research- from all sorts of avenues, including but not limited to the internet and the AVN”
What other research will you do, and how will you determine what research is “credible” or not?
loading...
Isn’t it the young babies that benefit the most because their immune system isn’t as strong?
loading...
Miira – I just can’t emphasise enough how terribly terribly misguided, onesided and just plain bad the information is on the AVN website. the people running it have absolutely no qualifications to discuss what they try to talk about. There is however, SO much well researched information out there. The article entitled 9 Myths on this site a few months ago has dozens of links to reputable sites – I would urge you to add these to your research.
loading...
Well, there was that article on the AVN blog about how the Illuminati (lizard people) were using the swine flu vaccine to implant mind-control microchips and commit genocide at the push of a button or something.
And there was that “vaccination is rape” thing and the bit about doctors and researchers being like paedophiles. Where else in Australia can you find that sort of valuable information?
I’m glad to know things like that about vaccination – my doctor never even mentioned any of it.
I still support vaccination but at least I know now that it’s just a killing tool employed by our sociopathic reptilian overlords.
loading...