by AVI VINCE
I have been vegan for just over one year. Prior to that, I was a chicken and fish eater for 14 years. Prior to that, my diet consisted of red meat and potatoes.
When my husband tells people that his wife is vegan they immediately get an image in their head. Long dreadlocks. Tattoo sleeves on both arms. Piercings everywhere. They are utterly shocked to find that I am so straighty-one-eighty that it is bordering on nerdy. Okay, not bordering, I am an actual nerd. Apparently, I am the first nerd they have met who leads an alternative lifestyle without the stereotypical alternative look.
In addition to my stereotypes, I always get two questions about my veganism. Often with an expression of utter bewilderment that I voluntarily chose to go down this path.
First question, why did I choose to be vegan?
I have never liked eating meat of any kind. The only reason I was eating chicken and fish was because research and people (family) told me I would be sickly if I didn’t. I often only ate it when it was covered in sauces or deep fried that it didn’t taste like what it original was.
I also found out that all my efforts at trying to be animal friendly through free range and organic weren’t a guarantee to the animal living happily ever after. I can’t stand animal cruelty and it was an easy switch. Yes, I still get cravings for chocolate (diary) and yes, I still cave and eat chocolate. But other than that, I am vegan and love it. I have never been healthier.
Second question, would I force my children to eat vegan?
This question is usually said with so much horror spread over their face that I often want to say that I will feed my children raw red meat to prevent them from calling Child Protection Services. Point to note here, I have no children, I am not pregnant and I am not trying to get pregnant.
My real answer to the second question is “I’m not sure, probably” while wondering why everyone uses the word force in this question like I am going to lead my family as the head dictator.
Realistically speaking, my children are most likely going to eat whatever I cook them. And I cook what I eat. So they will probably eat far more vegies, fruit and grains than any other kids. And I wouldn’t do this simply for my beliefs in being a vegan. My mum loves meat and potatoes. It isn’t classified a meal without meat in it. And so when I was younger, I ate what I was given. Did I mention my mum hated vegies? So as a result, I wasn’t given a huge amount of vegies, except potatoes.
Even with all the meat eating, I was still the strange child who asked for “more rice, no just rice, not meat thanks”. Or pile on all the salads at the buffet, wasting space for my main meal as it was referred to. I did this as far back as I can remember. I only ate meat when it was given to me and when I was instructed to finish everything on my plate.
Did thousands of meals of meat and dairy make me a meat lover? No.
If people think I would be forcing my eating habits on my children, then my mum is guilty of forcing her eating habits on me. (It didn’t work.)
If people think that I would be deliberately starving my children of essential nutrients, then my mum is guilty of not providing a variety of vitamins found in vegies on my plate.
If my child screamed from the back seat that they wanted McDonalds burgers, I would probably say no. Not because McDonalds burgers have red meat in it, but because it is high in fat and incredibly unhealthy.
If my child asked for meat, I would give it to them. Let them try it out. I probably wouldn’t cook it, again not because I am against meat, but because I would probably cook it so badly they wouldn’t want it ever again (hey, there’s an idea). Their dad, my husband, would probably cook them up a steak (did I mention he is a meat and potato eater?).
If my child asked me why I didn’t eat meat, I would tell them the truth. Regardless of whether my child eats meat, I am going to teach them to respect animals like my dad taught me through countless Sunday afternoon hours watching National Geographic documentaries. (My dad eats meat.)
I was and am the only person in my family and circle of friends who is vegan. I don’t even have a fellow vegetarian buddy to back me up.
It was entirely my choice, and I would support my child to be a meat and potato eater, or a stricter vegan than I am or whatever diet comes up in the future.
I have decided that as a good future mother my only concern would be the health and nutrition of my child which I would monitor regardless of what they ate (meat eaters suffer nutrition deficiencies too).
One final note, my eldest niece (4 years old) gets fed meat and potatoes (and loves it) and when I have taken her out to lunch and asked her what she would like, giving her full range of the food court, she simply replies “Just some carrots and broccoli please.”
So the real question is not how mothers force feed their children certain diets, but rather what would you do if your child chose to eat differently to you?
Monday to Friday, nice to five, Avi Vince works as a manager in a non-profit organisation. At all other times (and sometimes sneakily during nine to five) she thinks of writing. Avi Vince is starting her freelance writing career and you can follow her blog here or at twitter here.







Comments
389 Comments so far
why?? even though u where not vegetarian until u where like 14, why would u force ur children to be vegetarian, they get to miss the important stuff about meat like take pork for instince, mm just thinking bout it makes my mouth water!!! they get to miss the best part of food!!!
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Vitamin B12 – vegan? Yes.
Jane DJ below asserted that all B12 synthesis requires animal products. This is something I knew nothing about so I approached the manufacturer of the supplement that I use. An excerpt from their reply:
“P.Proponibacterium , a bacteria found in our bodies, is
grown on plant sugars and it is the starting material for our cobalamin.
Meat and dairy extracts are not necessary in the fermentation process since the protein needed for the bacterial growth can be supplied by plants that are already used for their sugars or other plants.”
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Woooww why are people so angry?! People are allowed to eat what they want to eat, for whatever reasons they want!!!
Degrees of veganism exist the same way degrees of omnivore-ism (just invented a word! hah!) do. Ie. some vegans think eating pet hen’s unfertilised eggs is ok, while others extend their veganism to their lifestyle and don’t wear leather or wool. Some omnivores only non-seafood meat, while others only like eating white meat etc etc. Being a vegan isn’t a black and white thing!!! We are not a uniform group, and to think that is so ridiculous and short-sighted.
I’m became a vegetarian 16 years ago when I was 15yo, after realising one thing: animals don’t want to be killed. No animal ever sits still and lets you kill them – they fight to live! Life is sweet to them and I didn’t want to play a part in denying them their right to it. Then I became vegan 4 years ago because I found out that the veal industry is closely entwined with the dairy industry. A cow produces milk when pregnant, so they’re impregnated over and over again to produce milk, while their offspring is killed for veal or raised to be another dairy cow.
That was my choice and it feels right for me and makes me happy. I think that people who ‘pre-empt’ a holier-than-thou preach-fest by attacking vegans need to calm down. You will find that most vegans won’t preach to you at all about your choices, because all they want themselves is to be able to eat what they want without being criticised. So unless you’re getting an earful from a vegan, don’t start any trouble by assuming it’s coming anyway.
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I have a 9 year old daughter who has not eaten meat since she was four. She doesn’t like eating dead animals (and will cry if you ask her what about live ones – thank you to all the people who try and make that joke!). She just doesn’t think it is “fair to the animals”. She is not “fussy” and there are plenty of things she *has* to eat that may not be her first choice.
I am therefore living the life a carnivore (who doesn’t really like vegies although I do make sure I eat them to set a good example!) – turned vegetarian mama (and I do try very hard).
So in answer to the author’s last question, I support my daughter’s right to make decisions based on what she feels is ethically appropriate and I hope all three of my daughters continue to stand for what they believe in. And I continue to defend this parenting decision at the same time as I support her decision. And yes I do get critised for this! Final disclaimer, 5 years ago I honestly thought she would grow out of it. I was wrong.
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mmm, a few varied opinions here.
i have been vegetarian (not a strict vegan) for 31 years now.
started sometime in my late teens… just sat at the dinner table one night and declared to my mum: “i’m not eating that anymore” (some meat dish she had lovingly prepared). in hindsight, i could have announced my diet changes in a better way, but hey, that’s a long time ago.
anyway – long story short, i’m alive and healthy, train at the gym mostly 4 times a week, and most people couldn’t tell by looking at me – what my diet consists of.
if the subject of my diet choices ever comes up in mixed company, i usually
try to change the subject quickly, and i get a bit anxious. why?
because “most” of the time (i stress most, not ‘every’ time), people look at me like i’ve just landed from another planet, and try to get me to justify my diet to them, as well as trying to force me to eat a sausage or other meat item, just so that i can know what i’m missing…
the thing that’s always baffled me is, why in those situations, have i been quizzed and puzzled like there’s something wrong with me? if i’d never said anything, they’d never know any different.
conversely, i don’t go around trying to convert every carnivore i meet, to come over to “the dark side”. it’s none of my business what food other people put into their mouths.
suffice to say, my diet choices are my own: my reasons are personal and spiritual and mean something to me, and i feel happier & healthier for the choices i make – and that’s all that matters.
*just my 2cents worth*
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Someone in an earlier post mentioned that humans drinking cows milk is unnatural because humans are the only species which drinks the milk of another species.
Bollocks!
Interspecies suckling happens in the wild. Here is one example of many:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16786521
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Another loophole!
One primate flukes upon the booby of another!
(Maybe that’s why Tarzan kept Cheeta – no dairy cows in the jungle.)
Ergo we should routinely drink bovine lactational fluid. Hooray!
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Great article.
Couldn’t read all the posts – certain peeps reminded me of my dad growing up and have given me the heebie jeebies.
2nd generation vegetarian here.
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Considering that every year almost 60billion terrestrial and over a trillion aquatic animals are intentionally killed, and usually treated with contempt between birth and death, it never ceases to amaze me with what frivolity people approach this subject.
There is always the loophole or gotcha. “But how do you know colonised bees were not used to pollinate your fruit?” “But what about the trace amounts of milk in your dark chocolate?” “But other animals eat meat.” “But it has not been proven that animals suffer just as we do, even if they look like they suffer as we do.” A new one to me from the discussion on this forum is “But your B12 is synthesised with the aid of beef products.”
These are all legitimate issues that deserve attention. They are not at all reasons to abandon reason and moral thought. They are certainly not reasons to recklessly peddle fantasies nor stop progress towards a less violent world. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Veganism is a way of being that aims to minimise harm to all sentient beings. No vegan is perfect and no vegan should really give a damn about their perfection. It is about a trillion sentient beings killed every year, not about ourselves. The vegan should always aim to minimise harm as far as possible but everyone knows that just by breathing she is affecting others. If we could get by with killing a million others per year rather than a trillion then why would we not go that way?
Anyone who claims to “love” or otherwise show consideration to animals yet continues to intentionally kill them is living a logical contradiction. That’s not a feeling or moral judgement – that’s just logic! Either the predicate of “love” or the conclusion of “kill” are misplaced – pick one.
Unless it is in the best interest of your loved one (such as when they request to be killed, etc.) killing is always a harm. Those who say that they don’t give a damn – well at least they are honest and logically consistent.
I would suggest that most people on this forum would admit having very similar moral concerns like unnecessarily harming any sentient beings is wrong. The only difference between vegans and nonvegans is that vegans have taken their moral concern to it’s reasonable and logical end and actually live it out. Why some people get this impulse is a mystery to me but I do think that education is a big part of it.
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YES!!
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I’m not a vegan but I really enjoyed this article, I found it rational, non-preachy and non-judgemental. The comments? Not so much, sadly…
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Agreed, neola…
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I’m not a vegetarian or vegan either, and I find some of my non-vegetarians take the vego diet just as personally as some vegos take my diet personally!
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Yes, indeed. I am a vegan, and I have vegan, vegetarian and omnivorous friends. Going out to eat together is not an issue because we respect each other. I don’t moo at them or say meat is murder, and they don’t give me shit for asking if the pasta has egg in it.
However. This “preachy vegan” has been on the receiving end of quite a few snarky comments from meat-eating family, despite the fact I have never once, not ever, commented on their food or brought up veganism or animal rights at meals. The only time I talk about it is when they bring it up.
There are preachy vegans, yes, and they are insufferable. But it has to be said that some meat eaters are so defensive that the very mention of it is deemed preaching. Not to mention the weak and convenient argument that they don’t consider animal rights valid because “preachy vegans are obnoxious and turn me off the cause”. People are perfectly entitled to think vegans are jerks. Many vegans *are* jerks. But if people are honest with themselves they’ll realise that that actually has no bearing whatever on the validity of our argument. Dismiss animal rights because you don’t think it’s a valid cause, fine, do what you want. But to do that because you don’t like vegans is a self-serving logic fail.
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I love this article so much, largely because it is so clearly written and without the impassioned emotion that this topic often engenders.
I am almost a vegan myself, having been to a health retreat earlier in the year and found out how fabulous and non-restrictive it can be. I would be doing this almost entirely for health reasons, although the benefit to the planet would be a really excellent side benefit.
People are often afraid of what they don’t understand. Thanks for explaining so nicely for everyone, Avi. xx
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My partners uncle’s are old school dairy farmers, and were absolutely horrified to learn I was vegetarian. They started musing about how the entire cattle industry would go out of business if everyone “caught” it, until I explained it’s a choice, not a contagious disease!! Their next question was whether I had “converted” my partner!! Again, I had to explain it was a choice, not a religion!! They were honestly and absolutely baffled that I wasn’t tempted by the tray of bbq meat in the middle of the table – that I didn’t like the taste, texture or smell of it and I didn’t believe it was right to exploit animals unnecessarily etc… Someone asked them sarcastically if they’d ever met a vegetarian before, to which they replied “Well, yes, but I’ve never been this CLOSE to one before” like I was some sort of endangered animal!!
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Here is a list of professional athletes who are vegan, which suggests to me that you don’t need to eat meat and/or dairy to be healthy and strong:
http://www.bestveganguide.com/vegan-athletes.html
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Clint Eastwood is the poster boy (or man) for a vegan diet.
He’s 82, married to a woman who’s 46, and is still acting, making movies and living large. So, as Dirty Harry might say, ‘Go ahead, make my… salad.’
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Nice theory, but correlation doesn’t mean causation.
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Aww, party pooper!
Frankly, I’m a little disappointed with some of the vegan hatred on this post.
Some commenters have calmly and clearly explained the health benefits that can result from a vegan diet – which they either learned by studying nutrition at a top university or discovered themselves through a medically supervised eating plan – and yet their comments have been completely dismissed by vegan-haters.
I don’t get it. If people are discovering the health benefits of veganism and not ramming it down others’ throats, as I didn’t feel as though they were, what’s the problem?
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Sorry!!
So if I turn vegan does it mean that I’ll get a hot wife 30 years younger than me?
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No, of course not…
You’ll get a hot wife 36 years younger than you! Not to mention become a movie star, Academy Award winning director and one of the richest, most famous and most well respected people in Hollywood.
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Apparently ’tis a myth that Clint Eastwood is vegan.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/movies/14head.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=movies
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That’s interesting. I saw his wife being interviewed the other day for a new TV show she’s doing and she said he was vegan. The article was written in 2008, so maybe things have changed.
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I have a genuine question about eggs that I was hoping some vegans could answer for me:
If you are a vegan who does not think having pets is morally wrong, do you see anything morally wrong with eating the eggs of a pet chicken?
I honestly can’t see anything morally wrong with this, so would like the thoughts of some vegans. In discussion with vegans I know who do keep pets, they say it would be wrong to eat the eggs of a pet chicken, yet when the discussion goes further, the issue of morality seems to be ignored and they just say “it’s gross”. I understand why they think it’s gross, but I was asking about the morality of it!
PS. I have read all the comments below and I know this issue has been sort of touched on, but I don’t think anyone has asked my specific question.
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Vegans should not have pets. Full stop. Having pets as amusement, teaching aids for kids, guardians, accessories, etc. is exploitation.
Vegans may adopt a nonhuman (or more) to save her from suffering or death (in a pound, etc.) but this should always be done with the adopted’s best interest in mind. We should also always adopt the ugly ones that others don’t want, the hard to handle ones, etc. because it makes sense that these will be the first to be killed since they are generally “least desirable” by the general public. Vegans might even adopt a chicken in the same fashion.
Adopting a nonhuman should be just like adopting a human (of course minus all the hassle of doing it and the laws protecting the adopted.) Just like an adopter and adopted child will form a synergistic relationship, so can the vegan with their adopted *companion* and both will benefit greatly from one another. Just as an adopter should never buy a child on the market, neither should a vegan buy a pet. Etc.
Buying a pet is perpetuating the exploitation of nonhumans. The cute dog in the window is the product of a forced pregnancy and kidnapping.
BTW: vegans have no moral obligation to adopt “unwanted” nonhumans any more than they have an obligation to adopt humans. But such a gesture is a beautiful duty of care in both cases.
Back to chickens: if you adopt a chicken for her eggs then you are an exploiter of that hen. If you adopt a hen for her own sake then that is different and eggs don’t really matter at all. Once you ascribe personhood to your adopted you will probably find it very weird to eat what comes out of her vagina.
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Thank you for your reply.
I tried to make it very clear the scenario in which I was asking about- a vegan who does think it’s ok to keep pets. While I understand all of the above in the strictest sense of being vegan, I do think that there are many people who follow a vegan diet (and not use leather etc etc) for ethical reasons, without necessarily ascribing to all the other facets of veganism.
So I think the only part you sort of answered my question was at the end: “If you adopt a hen for her own sake then that is different and eggs don’t really matter at all.” I would take this to mean, if it doesn’t really matter at all, it is not morally wrong? Your very last sentence is what I was trying to avoid. This is just the same argument other vegans have used about it being ‘gross’, and ignoring my main question of the morality of it.
But thank you for your answer.
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Nim, if it does not matter then it *is not* wrong. Sure.
Would he keep the hen if she did not lay eggs? If yes then, whatever, he can use any of her waste products.
But this is a slippery slope. Before we know it there will be an industry selling eggs from “loved by vegans” hens. Much like the free-range BS today. And the question of the hen’s origin and destiny remain unanswered.
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Not sure whether to laugh or not. I’m sorry. But not really.
Evidently you have never seen or experienced the possible love and devotion a person can have with a pet. I’m sorry.
I do however like the idea of going to the pound and choosing the ‘ugly’ or ‘difficult’ animals. I think I’d do similar if I adopt.
Also, that puppy that has been created via ‘forced pregnancy’ and ‘kidnapping’ still exists, and needs to be looked after, so boycotting it is helping no one. Least of all the puppy.
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That puppy is only there because people are perpetuating the market for them. Stop buying and they’ll stop making ‘em. Economics 101. Substitute “human slave” with “pet” and see where that takes you.
Love and devotion? I’m not sure how anyone can utter those words while they kill sentient beings “because I like how they taste.” Like warmongers proclaiming the beauty of peace. Mind boggling!
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having love and devotion for a pet animal doesn’t mean that i (or anyone else) love animals any less. meat provides me with nutrients. it’s about more than “because i like how they taste”. meat is good for you. therefore, i will continue to eat meat and not feel guilty about it.
i don’t have an issue with vegans / vegetarians because of what they eat. but when they push this self-righteous emotional crap on me, it is more than frustrating and i will respect you less for it.
maybe vegans would find that people would respect their arguments more if they don’t treat meat-eaters with contempt and condescension when talking to them. i really enjoyed the above article, but reading some of these comments are almost infuriating.
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“Vegans might even adopt a chicken in the same fashion.”
Aren’t chickens non-humans too?!!!!!!!
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Chickens are indeed nonhuman and I apologise to you for my grammatical error.
I’m sure the chickens don’t really care though. They do however care if you kill them.
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Actually, killing a chicken isn’t traumatic for the chook at all.
Just hold them by the legs and they sort of stick their heads out, if you use your free hand to tickle them under the beak they go into a sort of trance (hypnotising chooks), then put their head on the block and they stay quite still and calm. Then you just bring down the axe and their heads are off before the chook knows that it’s coming.
This probably sounds pretty off to the average city dweller with no knowledge of country life, but it’s a reality. One doesn’t have to be cruel to kill an animal.
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We can’t really make assumptions about what animals feel when they are killed. It’s not a fact, it’s a projected hope that they don’t feel traumatised going into the slaughter-house. So making these assumptions are just wrong. The only thing we can definitely say is true, is that all sentient beings WANT to live and don’t want to die. We humans ignore that desire for life and cut their lives short for the fleeting taste. A life in a cage, for 5 minutes on the palate.
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I know they are not “pets, but what about blind / assisted seeing dogs??
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I know – I am guessing some radical vegans believe seeing eye dogs are wrong?
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they wouldn’t be radical vegans, they’d be idiots. of course blind people have the right to guide dogs! it’s the manner in which they’re bred that would be of interest to vegans.
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My vegan sister in law is the strictest vegan eater ii’ve ever seen – and she and her family
i didn’t think to ask about the reasoning behind it but they don’t seem to have any problem with it.
are now happily eating eggs from their pet chickens
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I very much agree! This is the point I was trying to make. I don’t see anything morally wrong with this. Yet I have been told it is morally wrong under this specific circumstance, but when asked why received no logical answer! Just ‘it’s gross!’
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Nim:
Thankyou for the engagement.
Is it morally wrong to acquire a hen that was produced in a facility with no regard for her own self determininism, only for her instrumental and economic value? (Such facilities include commercial operations *and* backyards).
Is it morally wrong to artificially inseminate birds (to produce offspring that will be those hens you talk about)? And is it morally wrong to take these mother’s eggs away and hatch them in a machine rather than let the mother hatch her own eggs and tend to her offspring?
Is it morally wrong to kill her brother at birth? Because there sure as certainly not as many roosters as there are hens.
Is it morally wrong to kill a hen when she stops being of instrumental value to you when her egg production wanes?
Even if the main part of egg production was utopian the perimeters are full of violence and death.
Being vegan is about not exploiting others. You are fully right that there may be a situation where one may consume eggs, or even meat – such as roadkill, etc. – and remain true to that goal. But again, this is a slippery slope. And once you do ascribe moral worth to the other I posit it would be very “unnatural” to want to use the secretions or remnants of their bodies.
“Pet” implies ownership. The treatment of sentient beings as chattel property is *the* root, at least in a legal sense, of the overall problem of animal exploitation. The rights of the property owner *always* trump the rights of the property. If the property is not sentient – like a rock or a tree – then that’s moot, but when the property has interests of its own it is an enigma.
Considering we can survive perfectly without eggs, why even bother? It’s almost like trying to make a bomb that causes property damage without personal damage. Again, why even bother?
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“Enigma”. You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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You may be right. It could indeed be a bad choice of word.
Maybe “conundrum” would be a better.
Thank you.
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Hi Anonymous,
I understand the philosophy behind disagreeing with pet ownership, but I think this is a situation where pragmatism is more suited. I obviously disagree with things such as puppy farms, but very much agree with adopting pets from the RSPCA. This benefits both the pet (allowing them to live a happy life) and the owner (making them happy with the companionship of the animal). It can’t be argued that this perpetuates a bad system, because these are refugee animals, not sold for profit to the RSPCA. So really, whether you call this animal you acquire a pet, or a companion, or whatever other terminology you prefer, this seems like a small issue to me if the way you treat the animal is the same with any of the different labels. I see nothing wrong with adopting a pet in this way, I see only positives. These are domesticated species which do not have a natural place in the wild, so there isn’t really an issue of them not being in their natural environment, and doing so is not supporting any industry that causes the pain or suffering of animals.
So, while you pose valid moral questions about the system as a whole, I think these are more relevant to situations like the egg industry, and become less relevant when talking about pets.
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Many people refer to their pets as their children – while I understand where you are coming from about the implications of the title, I am not sure that all people look upon their family friend as a piece of property.
I have a dog and two children. My dog affects my life choices more than them sometimes I think! I pay more for his medical insurance, and I choose not to go on holidays if I can’t have my dog there.
It seems to be very personal the morals that vegans have, I know some that would eat meat brought to them in error as to waste it is worse, while others will refuse and send a meal away.
What is your thoughts?
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sorry, what are your thoughts?
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When my then four year old declared herself a ‘vegetarian’ it all came down to taste, not ethics (and probably some mimicking of her aunty). She’d just prefer to eat a bowl of steamed broccoli than chicken. Fine, I could understand and cater for that. But tastes change and a few years later she has days where she eats beef, chicken and lamb. You eat what your body tells you.
When an adult proclaims themselves ‘vegan’ or ‘vegetarian’ for ethical reasons and then bombard me with information I didn’t want or require I find it amusing. They still wear leather shoes (made from animal skins), sit on leather furniture (theirs and other people’s) and eat soy from genetically modified crops.
My sister, a vegetarian, and I shared a laugh about the vegan guy she met at a pub who wouldn’t eat honey, because it upsets the bees. Seriously. How would he know this? Did he interview the bees? There’s a poster called ‘anonymous’ seems to have an answer for everything – maybe he/she could shed light on that one. Do their stress levels go up when someone removes the honey?
However, I did read once the quote ‘Don’t go to the butcher to buy your meat, it’s so cruel. Go to the supermarket instead’. LOL.
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Commercial beehives are usually killed in entirety in winter because they’re not viable during that time of the year. This means the whole hive dies because it’s no longer convenient, even thought it could still produce honey next year. That’s why vegans don’t eat honey.
I’m sorry you feel that you have been bombarded with information from vegans and vegetarians, but could you please do some research before you snark at other people’s choices based on misinformation.
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Emma, you explained it well.
He said ‘it upsets the bees’.
He did not say ‘the bees get killed’.
Makes more sense now.
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Hi fifi-lulu.
C’est moi.
No one is bombarding you. You may skip each post beginning with “anonymous” or you may leave the page at any time. Considering this is a discussion about veganism I find it perplexing that you want to be here without hearing about it????
But re. bees:
1. They are routinely killed at many stages of the collection of honey – sometimes intentionally, sometimes accidentally.
2. They might suffer distress during certain procedures – the getting of honey, transport, etc. If I might distress you I’ll take the chance and not tempt fate. So I will act towards all sentient beings.
3. They, like all animals, produce for themselves. Even if they make excess, so what? Bill Gates makes excess dollars but it does not give me a right to go and take them because he’ll not notice much.
4. The honey bees we use are generally a specific type of European bee which has been bred over time to product copious amounts of honey. They are wreaking havoc with native bees and destroying their chance for life.
5. It just reinforces the paradigm of speciesism and our exploitation of others.
Plus there are other environmental reasons, some with potentially catastrophic effects. Google “bee disease” and watch the results.
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Just to add another dimension:
http://www.elephantjournal.com/2012/01/beekeeping-and-the-ethical-vegan-will-curley/
I love my honey. My dad left a chest of drawers out the back and all four drawers became filled with bees. My dad wasn’t a big fan of disturbing such things so left it there for about a year
We used to sneak some of the honeycomb out as kids – crazy now when I think about it that we never got severely stung
I am in no way a vegan or vegetarian, but I love to talk about the subject, and really respect the conviction that vegans have to make such a difference in their eating habits… I lived with a vegetarian and a vegan for a year, and out of respect only ate what they ate, including only using almond milk etc. on my coffee. It was difficult to get used to but not impossible.
Shopping took forever.
I would sometimes have a hamburger when I was out on my own though
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BTW: No adult that proclaims themselves ‘vegan’ for ethical reasons will wear leather shoes – unless possibly because they are their old, extant property and wish to utilise them rather than just discard them. They will never buy or otherwise obtain new ones since that brings harm to the beings which we kill and then skin to obtain leather. Any that do are not vegans. Ethical vegans don’t stop wearing leather necessarily because we’re grossed out by it (or meat or milk, etc.) – we are grossed out by the idea that we exploit and kill other sentient beings for frivolities like leather shoes and ice creams.
Why do we sit on leather furniture? For the same reason you and I enter buildings made by slaves, benefit from economic systems built on the historical exploiting of particular races and nations, use cars that contain technology developed during WW2, etc. I am sure you would agree that none of those justify slavery, racism or WW2, yet you benefit precisely from them. So vegans do sometimes benefit from the same institutions we abhor (not necessarily leather as I don’t see it a benefit, but things like medical advances possibly) – but we would never do anything to further promote them.
Regarding eating soy from genetically modified crops: sorry to tell you but about 90% of *all* soy is fed to cattle and other farm animals. When you eat chicken you are eating…. converted soy. You actually eat more soy, indirectly, than a vegan does!
Most vegans are quite particular about what they put into their body. I very much doubt that they would as a general matter eat more GM than nonvegans.
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I have been a vegetarian for 20 years and my partner is a meat eater although eats vegetarian most of the time (as I do all the cooking). We plan on having kids in a few years and I am not sure what I will do. I would love to have my kids as vegetarians but I don’t want them to miss out on things (eg kids birthday parties at maccas) and I don’t want them to be picked on by other kids….so I will probably have them eat vegetarian at home (as I do the cooking and would never cook meat) and they can choose to eat meat if they want to. Hopefully they will choose not to!
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I would love to have my kids as vegetarians but I don’t want them to miss out on things (eg kids birthday parties at maccas)
My vegetarian kids would get invited to maccas, I told them that away from home they could make their own choices, and they would eat chips. I’m pretty sure that the chips at maccas aren’t vegetarian. But I wasn’t about to not let my young child got to a birthday party ay maccas and perhaps cause them to start resenting the fact that they came from a vegetarian family
At times they would be invited to a kid’s party where the food was going to be a sausage in a long bread roll. When I was asked what could they feed my kid, I’d tell them to just give my child a banana in the long bread roll.
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The chips at Maccas are veggie. Also the chips at KFC, I’ve been told, are now cooked in vegetable oil as well (used to be beef fat).
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mcdonalds uses canola oil for cooking.
which is the worst type of oil for your body as it’s made from the rapeseed plant. Rapeseed oil contains high amounts of the toxic erucic acid, which is poisonous to the body. Canola oil is an altered version, also called Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed (LEAR) and it is commonly genetically modified and treated with high levels of pesticides.
i don’t understand how (and i’m really not flaming anyone here – i am genuinely asking) vegetarians / vegans can be okay with eating fries from maccas and ingesting this crap, when usually they’re so “aware” to what goes into them? surely beef fat is preferable? (unless you’re veg for ethical reasons…but if it’s for “health” reasons?)
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You’re right (for me at least) I’m very ‘aware’ of what I eat, which is why I hardly ever eat at maccas!
I think a (very sporadic) small chips every now and then won’t kill me
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I think you may find that those industrial bags of chips used in fast food are covered in tallow. Therefore not vegan, or rally vegetarian for that matter.
But they are a great sneaky indulgence
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Avi, thanks so much for this article. Many years ago, impressed by my vegan friend’s health and ethical lifestyle choices, I tried eating vegan for six months, and ultimately failed (due to my own laziness). Your article, the many comments, and the fact that I now have children and want them to be empowered to make ethical choices, has inspired me to do some research and see if I can make some healthy and ethical changes to my current lifestyle. Thanks again
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Vaniat:
Good on you. I did mention to another poster that reading some essays on http://www.abolitionistapproach.com or a book like “The World Peace Diet” will mentally empower you with logic to follow your conviction through.
Nothing tastes as nice as being able to be fully truthful with your kids.
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I think this article is great. I am a vegetarian but not a vegan and I find (mostly the older generation) act like I am harming them by my decision. I don’t force my view on anyone and do not think that vegetarians/vegans in most circumstances are the ones who have the attitude. I get people running my decision down all the time but I don’t run them down for choosing to eat animals. I also will explain to my children exactly what meat is and if they choose to eat it then at least I know that they understand what they are eating. I am very healthy and get lots of protein and iron and have never felt healthier and happier since I chose to give up meat. Thanks for the great article I really enjoyed reading it.
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Thank you for a great article! I’ll be upfront – I’m a vegan, so everyone will know what side of the fence I sit on. I originally transitioned to a vegan diet for ethical reasons, so I figured if I ever had children I would not force my diet upon them. However since then I have completed my certificate of plant based nutrition from cornell university and am currently studying nutrition and dietetics. The health benefits of a whole foods plant based diet are unmistakably clear, so I have very much changed my tune. If I were to have children there is absolutely no way I would feed them meat. Until they were old enough to make their own choices, and fully understand the health, environmental and ethical pros and cons it would be vegetables all the way.
Apart from my immediate family – who i argue with about everything not just diet
I havent forced my opinions down anyone’s throat (by the by my whole family have now transitioned to a vegan diet – my dad who was a heart attack waiting to happen now has his cholesterol in the normal range and also lost over 15 kilos without even trying) Before all the vegan haters get on their band wagons please educate yourself. Don’t just believe what you hear on tv – I would even view anything the government releases about nutrition very cautiously. At uni one of our subjects addressed just how much swing the meat and dairy industry have on FSANZ, food pyramid etc etc.
Here are two videos from a great site – all peer reviewed. no hype, just facts. Including findings from the largest nutritional study ever conducted.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/largest-study-ever/
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/vegetarians-versus-healthy-omnivores/
Also two books I would say are a must read for anyone who cares about their health at all:
-The China Study by T Colin Cambell PHD
- Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease by Dr Caldwell B. Esselstyn
Also Im sorry for looooong post but just finishing up on heat disease – one of the leading causes of death in australia, costing the government millions, and causing devastation in millions of families right across the country IS PREVENTABLE. This horrible disease has caused our family great upset – when it just shouldnt. at all. not to anyone.
Stats on causes of deaths in aus: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0~2010~Chapter~Causes%20of%20death%20(4.1.6.1)
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So, given that Cornell university is based in the US, do its courses on nutrition touch on the fact that corn and it’s byproducts get used in just about everything over in the US? Or does it mention what effect GM crops have on the food that is modified and on the people that consume them? It would be interesting to know.
I would have to say that since your whole family is now eating vegan, you’ve probably influenced them hugely. Maybe not ramming it down their throats, but still..
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Hi Faybian,
I wasn’t talking about, nor was the article talking about GM and the overuse of corn and soy in fuel, processed foods etc. Just because I did my certificate through an American university doesn’t mean im pro these things. far from it. But thats a completely different kettle of fish and not the topic being addressed here.
I also stated that I do talk about diet with family – just not other people. And you know what, the fact that I may have influenced them in their decision is not something i’m ashamed of – they have all experienced noticeable health improvements, and if it prevents my siblings and I from going through something like my parents had to with their parents, then i make no apologies.
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Em, I recently watched ‘Knives over Forks’ which is about Drs Campbell and Esselstyn and despite finding some of it problematic was completely amazed at the information in it. Transformational viewing – I could never eat meat regularly again.
Not sure I will ever be 100% vegan, but golly I have come much closer after watching that.
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I think the reason ‘meat-eaters’ get so frustrated in this debate is that vegetarians and vegans seem to take the ‘holier than thou’ approach, and go on to accuse us of being immoral, unethical, uncaring etc.
We all have different moral opinions, especially when it comes to animals. I can totally understand why vegans don’t agree with the idea of animal products – but I personally don’t agree with it, and I feel comfortable eating meat, so I do. You might disagree with my opinions, but don’t accuse me of being unethical, my ethics are different to yours and in this debate there is no right or wrong. You may think animals are sentient conscious creatures, and that’s fine. But it’s not a fact, it’s an opinion. And some of us think differently.
If you don’t agree with meat, don’t eat it. If you do, then do.
Let’s not keep forcing our opinions down everyone elses throats.
And just a side note (i’m not being facetious, just curious). Some commenters have said that they are veggie/vegan but cook their partners/children meat. How do you justify buying and cooking meat when you think it’s so unethical?
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Animals being sentient is not up for debate in the scientific community.
The implications of animal sentience is what most debate today.
Today there are debates on whether gay marriage is allowable. Fifty years ago it was debated that certain people, due to their race or colour, were not fit for full membership in society or the moral community, or that they were unfit to raise families. One hundred years ago it was debated that females were not capable of certain decisions and did not need the right to vote. Two hundred years ago the race debate propped up slavery. While we debate the innocents suffer and that *is* the forcing of opinions on others to the worst degree. Almost 60billion terrestrial and over a trillion aquatic animals are killed each year while we debate this today.
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Thanks Anon, but I don’t need a history lesson and I fail to see the relevance of any of your points to animal sentience.
And I would argue that it is still up for debate. Animals have some cognitive abilities, yet we have no idea whether they are conscious or aware or experience emotion in the same way humans do.
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Apparently you don’t believe that history repeats itself and if you can’t see the point of my references there is little more I can offer you.
But cognitive abilities and sentience are very different. Human babies have almost no cognitive ability but they are clearly sentient. In fact, a mature pig has more cognitive ability than a newborn human. Why not then roast the human on a Sunday arvo?
Quick test: If I stick a hot poker into your ribs and into a cow’s ribs do you think I’d get different reactions? I’d say theys be preeeeeety similar.
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Hi Chelsea,
I remember you stating in a previous post that you study neurobiology. So I’m pretty curious about your stance here? I’ve read quite a few studies on the adaptation and evolution of consciousness – I am particularly interested in research of Rodney Cotterill (professor of neuroscience/biophysics at Cambridge).
Do you think that consciousness is an evolutionary adaptation? I would think it is pretty uncontroversial to say that it is. The ability to ‘time travel’ in the mind to learn from past behaviour and utilize this for the future and present in decision making – in addition to the thought-body connection whereby through the pscyho-somatic response we can think about and predict future scenarios and subconsciously biochemically alter the body in preparation for them – seem to me to be all pretty compelling adaptations that are going to selected for in organisms in a complex, dynamic environment.
In fact Darwin after his significant and lengthy observations was one of the first people to state that almost all the emotions in humans can be observed in animals and that the difference between animals and humans is one of ‘degree’ and not ‘kind’. Sorry to extend the history lesson but it was because the Rationalists got their dirty hands onto science and turned animals into automata due to their divine belief in consciousness of humans having a rather omnipotent causality. This belief however became ingrained as the conservative hypothesis within the scientific community and due to the nature of science and the rather well proven propensity of humans to put themselves into the centre of the universe has been difficult to dislodge. Although this is rapidly changing.
Now given that many animals have homologues of most structures in the human brain do you think it is – given all the other evidence of selective advantages of consciousness and the direct observation of complex emotions in animals – that the most parsimonious theory is that animals do not have consciousness?
For instance – elephants have extraordinary memories and hugely complex emotions – I’ve seen a maltreated elephant cry… but they also play and show curiosity, co-operate in complex ways, grieve their loved ones, suffer psychological flashbacks and suffer from PTSD. In confirmation of the structure-property-function relationship fundamental to all biology they have highly developed hippocampal regions of the brain, larger in proportion to brain size than humans. The complexity of their brain parallels that of humans with a neocortex as sophisticated as humans with more complex gyral pattern than humans and containing more cortical neurons and synapses.
Similarities in structure-property-function relationships between brain and behaviour are shown in other animals which show highly advanced behaviour and complex emotions and co-operation which is in line with the fundamental principle of convergent evolution. As I mentioned before to some extent – the homologues of the brain have been found in all other vertebrate animals always in direct relationship to the complexity of their behaviour.
I’m honestly not trying to be antagonistic – I think most vegos who are a bit evangelical about vegan diets and lifestyles are generally those that are new to change their minds and are processing their own strong thoughts and feelings.
However I am really curious how you can study a subject where you routinely relate brain structure and behaviour in humans but in direct opposition to most of the fundamental premises of science can honestly believe that animals do not have a consciousness. (Interestingly in Logic also it has been shown that new ‘properties’ such as consciousness if they are non-epiphenomenal cannot just ‘appear’ at a certain level of complexity – it has to be present at some degree at lower levels of complexity also.)
If you are completely comfortable with eating meat – great! Personally I think – eat beans, not beings
Here’s a little elephant with post traumatic stress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9eKB9wYn_4
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Stalker much???
And this is why I dislike so many veggies.
For goodness sake I have an opinion.
Stop pulling everything apart because you don’t agree with me.
I’m not going to argue anymore. I find it quite hilarious that people will go to such extremes to try and prove something, that will never be concrete, right.
But I’ll leave it at this. One of my professors says that all we can do is “twitch muscles and secrete fluids”. Consciousness, even in humans, is a highly contentious issue in neuroscience.
And I’ll leave you with a quote by Steven Hawking “we are just an advanced species of ape, on an average planet, of an average sun. But we can understand the universe, and that’s what make us special.”
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Hi Chelsea?
A stalker? Would you care to elaborate? – On the climate post where you stated that your opinion that climate change is definitely not occurring and you had expertise to make that claim due to your scientific studies and responded to my enquiry about your discipline – answering neuroscience. Forgive me for remembering, why did you answer if it bothered you! Next time I’ll pretend to forget.
But wow – you are happy to make strong opinions on posts and then attack anyone who disagrees with you. I’m curious to know why are you so defensive and hostile?
I was genuinely curious how you could apply what is clearly an inconsistency in reasoning – and yes engage you in debate. I don’t think debate is about ‘changing people’s minds at any lengths’ – people are always free to make up their own mind. But yes as someone who consistently makes strong claims about science – I would expect some sort of critical thought about why you think the way you do. Clearly your idea of science is stating strong opinions – Not argument, critical thought and exchange of ideas.
But you do like cliched quotes so here’s some for you.
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.”
Albert Einstein, physicist, Nobel Prize 1921
“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”
Thomas Edison, inventor
“The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men.”
Leonardo da Vinci, artist and scientist
Peace out.
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Who the hell remembers posts from years ago, about completely different subjects, about complete strangers, and uses them as some kind of argument???? I find that ridiculously creepy.
And how the hell can you say that I”M attacking everyone. All I wanted was to state my bloody opinion. And then YOU write and entire bloody essay apparently proving conciseness and telling me how wrong I am, and how stupid I am and how immoral I am. You think you’re really smart because you’ve chucked in a few scientific words? Get back to me when you’ve sat through hours of lectures telling you that even humans don’t have a conscious and then tell me that animals do. When you study social psychology, and realise that most of the time we don’t even have control of our own behaviour.
As far as I can recall, I have said that I have hesitations about CC being caused by humans. And I have never claimed to be an expert in climate science, as you very well know I”m a neuroscientist. I have read literature on climate change, and studied it in Chemistry, and yes have AN OPINION based on that.
I don’t believe animals have a conscious. They survive because they are motivated by evolutionary drives, they don’t have a moral compass in the same way we do, and they don’t understand the world from an objective point of view as humans can do (taking yourself out of a situation and see it from someone else’s perspective – and thus understand our place in the universe). This is MY OPINION, I can’t prove or disprove animal consciousness, and we can never know what animals think – so it just comes down to what you believe in.
If you think you’re so right, give me one piece of concrete evidence that proves consciousness. Not emotion, not pain. Consciousness.
The thing that’s really pissing me off, is that people like you can’t accept that others think differently, so you spend hours trying to convince us why you’re ‘right’. I accept your opinion, so why the hell can’t you just accept mine.
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Hi Chelsea,
Your capslock and excessive ? marks, as well as your general tone come across as yelling, which I doubt you would do at a dinner party.
Your accusations of the other poster being a stalker are a bit ridiculous, they could have just read the article at the same time as this one.
I have also studied social psychology and to say “most of the time we don’t even have control of our own behaviour” is absurd. Yes, studies have highlighted some of the external factors that influence our behaviour, but to draw your conclusion is completely unscientific.
Why is the issue of consciousness so important here? If you agree with your lectures on (the lack of) human consciousness, I’m sure you still think killing humans is wrong? I don’t know why you’re asking the other poster to ignore emotion and pain, when these seem like more relevant issues.
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Chelsea -
I find it quite funny that you think it is strange that I would remember the online conversation that I had with you previously (less than) one year ago. I find it a bit odd that you *wouldn’t* remember. But yes – I have learnt that I may have an unusual memory.
I’m a little bit confused though about why you come on to a public blog and state strong opinions to complete strangers, not be open to engaged discussion and then expect everyone to forget what you say instantly. What is the point?
I’ve lived in many sharehouses and most with people that eat meat – and amongst all my other circles – nobody has an issue with feeling that I force my vegetarianism or moralism on them. If it is discussed it is generally because they broach the subject.
The difference with a post like this is – that since it is a post about the ethics of vegetarianism, I think that it is an appropriate place to be able to argue the points about this subject. That is not evangelicalism – it is called debate. On any other subject, debate is invited but I find it strange that as soon as that topic turns to vegetarianism – its this is *your* opinion and this is *my* opinion and we are not to discuss it at all except to mutually affirm each others right to an opinion and to reassure people that think differently that we do not in any way believe ours is morally superior.
This for me is the point of a blog – to be able to substantiate why I believe what I state and to have people engage with that and challenge it – though yes I enjoy vigorous debate more than most people. I value what I learn from it. And also because to some extent I don’t believe that we can live in a world where this is *your* opinion and this is *my* opinion and leaving it at that.
Because we live in a world where we are required to come to difficult and complex communal decisions on how we base our societies and that our opinions and actions always have a significant influence on other people and yes animals. And I’m all too wary of my own limitations of thought.
Interestingly I’m not threatened or upset by people who hold beliefs that are *morally* superior to me – I’m pretty secure like that.
No where at all have I at all suggested that you are immoral or stupid or even *wrong*. I was genuinely curious to understand how you could maintain beliefs that look pretty inconsistent from where I stand. It was an invitation to debate.
I’ve also sat through many lectures on philosophy of mind and language and have studied biophysics and some neurobiology – so I’m already pretty familiar with the eliminativist theory of consciousness and all the other aspects of the discussion of animal consciousness.
Perhaps next time if you are not interested in a deeper discussion – you could simply respectfully decline – instead of projecting all sorts of negative things onto the other person.
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…of course animals are sentient conscious creatures. What on earth are you talking about. I eat lots of meat, and am fine with it and that knowledge. I have honestly never heard someone say that before. Have you never…been near an animal? That’s the only way I can rationalise your opinion.
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Hey Chelsea! I am vegetarian, and I am happy for anyone to exercise their right to whatever diet they choose because I don’t think I can change the world, but I can choose to not contribute to something I don’t believe in – I would say that that’s where those who will cook meat for their families are coming from. They respect the beliefs of others and will provide for their family whatever they want, but choose to not actively support the meat industry. I would also guess that those households would eat far less meat than many others.
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Thanks for replying Lisa, i totally understand that
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Me too Lisa…vego 23 years but married to a carnivore and have produced 2 sons of the same ilk. Its their choice whether they choose this lifestyle, as I did at 21. Lets face it, its only in rich, developed nations we really have that choice. I cook vego half the week, and a combination of meals the other days. Our kids go to a religious school which has many vegetarians (seventh day adventist) so have been exposed to a variety of ways of eating for a long time. Each to their own and I wish everyone could just get along!!
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I can’t speak for anyone but me, but I cook meat sometimes for my partner because she’s going to eat it anyway and it’s quicker for me to do everything!
I don’t pay attention to what anyone else eats, it’s none of my business and if it’s easier that night for me to cook a steak in a separate pan when my partner’s on her way home, or busy doing something else when I’m already cooking, then it gets cooked (I just wish some of my ‘hilarious’ friends would take the same attitude and not comment on my own food, but oh well).
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I would like to ask a genuine question to a vegan regarding eggs. If a hen is free range especially in your own back yard, and you don’t have to kill it to get the eggs, why aren’t they eaten? Not being silly, just really want to know.
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Please see my response below in this page. Search “vagina” and you will find it.
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Can someone PLEASE tell me why vegans can’t eat eggs. Anyone??
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Well, they just choose not to eat anything that comes from an animal. At all, in any way.
It’s not that they “can’t” as such, it’s just one more animal product they choose to exclude from their diet.
Why do you ask, do you know a vegan with chickens running around laying eggs in their backyard?
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Thanks Profiterole for your reply. The reason I ask is I only know one vegan and her reason for the non-meat thing is for cruelty to animals, so she also does the non-leather shoes etc, but because hens naturally produce an egg a day because that’s their thing, I am am at bit of a loss as to why if that’s not considered cruel ie you don’t have to kill the hen to get the egg, then why can’t they be eaten. And no, my one and only vegan friend doesn’t keep chickens haha. Do know lots of vegetarians, but only one true vegan.
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You, yourself and yous:
Can you please tell me why the “vagina” response was not good enough for you? I’m more than happy to ramble on but need to know what you’re after.
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Maybe because chickens don’t have vaginas?
Maybe because it is redundant for you to answer simply to direct her to another post which still doesn’t answer the question?
I would say the poster is after a reason as to why something that has not caused harm to the animal and has been left behind cannot be used.
And FYI I have a few interesting friends that chose to eat the placenta after their child was born – so the fact the egg came out of the chicken is really not enough here, especially for us carnivores who eat an animal intentionally killed for food.
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Wow Avi what a great piece! I’ve been vegetarian for 20 years & now have a 10 month old son. Is he a carnivore? You bet! Do people including my parents question me about his diet every single day? You bet! People often have strange ideas about vegetarians & that we’re all a bunch of preaching, whining hippies. I’ve never lectured anyone about eating meat, never judged anyone for doing so & will never stop my son from eating it…
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Everything we eat causes harm unfortunately. Clearing huge tracts of land for crops decimates the small animal and insect life that might live on the land otherwise and the amount of land that we need for crops is ever increasing. These creatures are lower down the food chain but still of crucial importance. And then there is the research that plants are sentient beings too. It is a slippery slope once we claim compassion for this over that. We have to accept that we, as humans, are destructive and self serving in order to survive. I don’t mind what people eat though, in the west, we should probably all eat less and eat more mindfully. For us to live, something else gives up life.
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I was wondering about this last night after reading this post – people talk about the environmental impact of raising animals for milk/meat. What about resource use for plant foods and their derivatives? Has there been a comparison done between making say, soy milk compared to dairy farming? Or rice/almond/whatever alternative is trendy at the moment milk? Genuinely curious as to what the comparison is for land/water/processing.
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I think they also add methane to the calculations.
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Yeah, I know, but surely there is some impact from the processing, production of supplements that are lacking in the dairy alternatives, etc etc.
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What do you think is lacking in, say, soymilk rather than cow’s milk? (Except lactose, casein and cholesterol – all non-essential – sometimes arguably harmful)
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Yes harmful animal protein eg Forks Over Knives etc. Really wish some people didn’t think we are making this stuff up. They don’t hear it from the family doctor so there’s denial of any other sources research evidence etc. Doctors will go for the prescription pad first than tell you to reverse certain conditions eg heart disease by going plant based. They learn zero about the harmful effects of food and reversing illness possibilities of food. The vegan drs in the US doing this research and achieving results were ridiculed by their peers plus not supported by their universities and Government. Yes this is the system and medical model we live in…
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Processing plant based milks:
1. Grow plants.
2. Harvest plants.
3. Grind plants with water to make milk.
4. Add fortifications as required and package.
Processing bovine milk:
1. Grow 40-50x more plants that you would have otherwise.
2. Harvest plants.
3. Feed plants to cows.
4. Impregnate cows, take their children away,etc.
5. Collect 25-50kg of poo per day.
6. Pump out bovine lactational fluid.
7. Separate, homogenise, pasteurise, reconstitute, etc.
8. Add fillers.
9. Add fortificiations as required and package.
10. Send cow and her kids to the abattoir.
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Interesting question Kris. The cows have to eat plants to produce milk and meat so the majority of soy beans etc grown in the world are for feeding cows in concentrated feed lots for meat production. The statistic where it takes 8 kilos of plant food to produce a kilo of beef would be the same for milk. The dairy cows have to eat the plant food to produce milk which is really just liquid meat.
The 8 kilos of plant food could feed far more people than just that 1 kilo of beef. The amount of water would be much more too. Also that land is taken away from being used for growing a wide variety of food. Alternative milks are not merely “trendy” but an important substitute for many people. Just wish baristas would explore non soy varieties eg rice milk yum.
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But what is the ratio for soy/almond/rice/whatever milk? How many kg does it take to make a litre of that kind of milk?
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1 cup (200g) of nuts for a litre of milk is a standard ratio.
Plus you get the high fibre grounds at the end to use in other foodstuffs.
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I was looking for research into this for manufactured alternatives milk but personally make almond milk exactly the same way. Also a cup of raw oats to make oat milk depending on the thickness, more water less thick and creamy. Try blending with some medjool dates too yum. The only stat I found was from RiceDream who say they have zero carbon footprint is 1 kilo of rice to make 7.2 litres of rice milk. You are cutting out one part of the chain eg the plant eating cow so it has a much better environmental footprint.
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It’s not just the clearing of land for animals that is the problem, it’s also that Australia is not suited to hard-hoofed animals. Our soil is designed for the soft footed, small mouthed native animals, and cattle and sheep compact the soil, damaging it and rendering it unsuitable to produce native vegetation. This results in more run off, so limits water available to plants, which results in less coverage and increases soil temperature. The compaction destabilises the stability of stream beds which sends more sediment into the waterway, increases water temperature and the faeces increases phosphorous and nitrogen levels. All this in turn renders the water unsuitable for drinking, irrigation or even swimming, and affects aquatic animals and ecosystems. Certain types of imported weeds, naturally more resilient to cattle and sheep, have also begun to proliferate and wipe out natural vegetation which native wildlife are dependent on.
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Isn’t choosing to be vegan, at the very least, a way of minimizing cruelty & destruction? Why don’t we use our wonderful intelligence to create ways of living that cause the least amount of harm? As a matter of survival of our species doesn’t that benefit us? How does being needlessly cruel & destructive benefit our survival? If we could live happy & healthy lives without hurting others…why wouldn’t we?
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Everything we do does always cause harm.
But there are at least 2 important issues here:
1. Harm minimisation. Living vegan is absolutely the best and easiest way to reduce harm due to food and clothing. Its effects are immediate and its cost is zero.
2. Intent. We all accept that each year over 1000 people will die on Australian roads yet none of us think driving is immoral. But running someone over intentionally is definitely generally immoral. So it is with agriculture – there is a massive difference between the intentional exploitation and killing of sentient beings and the collateral damage from cropping. As a theoretical matter, cropping *could* be performed without any harm to anyone. Animal exploitation *always* involved harm to at least that animal.
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We teach our children to be kind because we believe it is the right & just way to behave. We certainly don’t conciously teach them to be cruel. So why as adults are we not taking seriously the issue of veganism as a way of kind living? Why is it so important to us to continue to objectify animals & subject them to the types of horrific cruelty that we can’t even imagine ourselves being subjected to? Isn’t it more important to evolve into creatures of kindness & compassion than to hold steadfast this idea of needless cruelty? Why not teach our kids how marvelously selfless, compassionate & kind we can be? What is stopping us walking the talk?
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For me, it is the fact that animals will always eat other animals, including killing them in a painful, distressing way. Ever watched a doco where the lion/tiger/wolf/coyote/seal/killer whale/shark etc hunts and kills the terrified, defenseless prey? No amount of me turning Vegan will stop this cycle of life. We are animals too, can’t deny it. I’m happier if the animals I eat are reared and killed in as humane a way as possible, but I think it is perfectly acceptable to eat other animals, and I take my mandate from nature, thanks very much.
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But Anony, the thing is that we are not designed by nature to eat large quantities of meat. We are omnivores. The animals you watch in doco’s are classed as carnivores – nature has provided them with the weapons they need to bring down prey and designed their digestive system for a diet of mostly meat. Omnivores, in nature, exist on smaller amounts of meat and larger amounts of plants and are generally only able to hunt smaller animals. Without man made tools or weapons, going only by the design of nature, a human wouldn’t be able to track, catch and kill a full grown cow.
And the manner in which cattle are raised and slaughtered is FAR from humane.
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“we are not designed by nature to eat large quantities of meat. We are omnivores. ”
Which means that we are designed by nature to eat *some* meat – not 100% plants.
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I think it’s weird that you think that people think that vegans have dreadlocks and tattoos.
Personally I think I am too lazy to be a vegan.
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Fact : If children (or any human actually) are fed a truly vegan diet along strict idealogical vegan guidelines, they are being deprived of an essential vitamin, namely B12.
“Food plants do not contain vitamin B12; therefore, the only
reliable sources of vitamin B12 for vegetarians are dairy
products and eggs, fortified foods and dietary supplements
(Herbert, 1988; Dagnelie et al. 1991).
It has been claimed that some plant foods such as seaweed and tempeh might provide true vitamin B12, but this claim has not been
established and much or all the material in these foods
that is detected by assays for vitamin B12 may be vitamin
B12 analogues that are either inactive or may antagonize
true vitamin B12 (Dagnelie et al. 1991; Dagnelie, 1997).”
(Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets
Timothy J. Key*, Paul N. Appleby and Magdalena S. Rosell
Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (2006), 65, 35–41)
Pop over to Google scholar and search “Vitamin B12 Deficiency vegan children”
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=Vitamin+B12+Deficiency+vegan+children&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5
– done it for you – to see the potentially dangerous results of depriving babies and children of vitamin b12.
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Babies and young children can get vitamin B12 from breastmilk. And some soy and rice milk is fortified with B12 also.
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If Mummy does not eat meat she has very insufficient B12 in her breast milk.
And just where do you think the B12 in the supplements use to fortify soy, etc. comes from?
By all means feed your children a healthy, vitamin supplemented vegan diet, but my point is that veganism as a strict ideology fails somewhat in the face of basic human biochemical needs.
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*All* B12 is synthesised from bacteria. Supplements? From bacteria too. Sorry, no gotcha there.
Omnis: go read the ingredient list on your cereal, etc. You’ll probably find B12 as an included fortification. I posit that most cereals are not intended for vegans (being only 1% of the population – a very unwise economic strategy) yet B12 is so often included. Doesn’t that make you think?
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Conveniently overlooking the fact that those bacteria from which all that B12 is harvested for supplements are grown in an industrial microbiology lab on nutrient agar and in culture broths – made from beef extract.
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Vegan B12s are readily available. Google is your friend.
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So,link me to a website demonstrating a truly vegan B12 source.
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Oh, and Google is not my friend in situations like this.
Google is a pain in the ass allowing unqualified people who claim they’ve done their research to totally delude their laymen a$$es into thinking they’re legitimately educated on a myriad of topics.
Try Google Scholar and get back to me.
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Hoping this reaches your email. Please see my new comment at the top of the thread.
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Very fair question!
Googling “vegan b12 tablet” brings up a host of results but none with detailed production processes – just guarantees and affirmations of vegan suitability. Eg: the first hit links to a product and if you go to the manufacturer it is guaranteed vegan.
I am not a microbiologist and do not know these details. I do go by the guarantee of reputable production companies that state their product is vegan, and it is similarly qualified by various certification bodies.
But I am intrigued and have already contacted them for more information. Thank you for piquing my interest.
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Hi JaneD,
This comment seems a tad condescending? Since when do adults refer to other women as ‘mummy’.
As with any other diet Veganism has its pros and cons. In regards to Vitamin B12 I’d like to make a few points.
The majority of vegans are very informed about B12 and most about the presence of analogues in seaweed/spirulina. Please have a look at the Vegan society webpages and the very in depth and intelligent discussion about diet – (often with links and articles from the medical and scientific literature).
Not all vegans are as informed as they should be – (I’ve argued with one vegan who had serious health issues most likely from B12 deficiency and also too many (non-vegan) ‘health store attendants’ who are not trained adequately in nutrition and should be more careful about dispensing advice.
However it is not fair to select the minority of people following a Vegan diet as being any way representative of the group as a whole. The biggest criticism of Vegans who become B12 deficient or who are rigid and purist about their diets to the point of being unhealthy comes from within Vegan circles themselves. This is because unlike people following any other diets – Vegans are *never* allowed to get the slightest bit sick without it being blamed on their nutrition.
In regards to the bio-availability of B12 – in general the bacteria that produces B12 is found in top-soil and plants that are grown in manure do in fact contain B12. Our modern food processing and cleaning the ‘dirt’ from our vegetables in addition to factors like serious erosion of topsoil arguably contributes to there being no B12 in a Vegan diet. Easily rectified by supplementation and/or fortification in food.
Lets also not forget the serious consequences in other mainstream diets that lack essential nutrients. Before folate was added to cereals, for people with diets of highly processed foods and high in meat and dairy, it was not all that uncommon to have folate deficiency which is just as devastating to babies as vit B12 deficiency. (Spina Bifida) This is why folate is added to breakfast cereals (which are generally high in added sugar).
When the subgroup of people eating meat based diets (vegan diets are very high in folate) had babies born with folate deficiency did this mean everyone who had a mainstream diet was attacked as being unhealthy?
Many people do not receive adequate nutrition from a mainstream diet due again to various factors – this is why folate is added to cereal, salt is iodized, margarine is fortified with vitamin D ect. and a host of others by health bodies as being stringent legal requirements in producing those foods.
It is also pretty uncontroversial that even relatively small amounts of meat in the diet are associated with higher rates of mortality. (A primarily plant based diet supplemented with fish and seafood seems to be the healthiest in many of the scientific studies I have read).
In a society where most people have turned the food pyramid completely on its head in terms of healthy eating – I find it a little strange that Vegans are routinely picked out for *one* important vitamin which they in general supplement in the midsts of an epidemic of unhealthy, highly processed, high sugar mainstream diet with massive health implications which nobody is allowed to dare comment on.
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One of the best B12/vegan lit reviews I’ve come across is by a vegan dietician
http://www.purachlorella.com.br/doc/B122002.pdf – if this is the quality of the research vegans are reading I don’t doubt that many vegans are well versed on the importance of adequate B 12 intake.
I am not criticising your average garden variety (heh) unassuming educated adult vegan, as long as they are supplementing their kids with B12, or themselves (at the trying to conceive stage preferably) if they are considering breastfeeding.
I do however see supreme hypocrisy (or is it cognitive dissonance) when the hard core ideological vegans berate people for owning pets or chooks, when their very elemental healthy existence requires B12.
Ah, but you say, that’s “Easily rectified by supplementation and/or fortification in food” So, you acknowledge there are zero true vegan sources of B12? And that B12 supplements are made in large factories requiring huge resources and animal-based growth mediums?
Vegans should at least acknowledge and communicate their interpretation of that fact before preaching . Unless their B12 source is from natural excretion (Uh oh – that’s owning animals and exploiting them for their manure!!)– otherwise I will view those extreme views as just a tad hypocritical and …full of their own natural excretion.
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Jane DJ – My chemist actually rang the lab once and confirmed that the source of the B12 she was selling me was entirely Vegan – so yes it is possible (her suggestion I was unaware of the connection). I’m not really sure about the huge amount of resources that it takes to ‘make’ B12 in factories – seems like a bit of an exaggeration.
I should state that I’m a bit of a lapsed Vegan at the moment (I eat eggs and occassionally chocolate).
But you are right it is impossible to avoid animal products altogether – I mean do we get on a bus because there is animal products in the wheels? That seems to me a bit silly. I’m not a purist – I just try my best to avoid animal products when I can (For instance I wear micro-fiber instead of leather.)
Yes there are some pretty militant vegans out there and I think they would do well to be a bit more accommodating and understanding of other people seeing differently to them. They only alienate people anyway.
But the my point is that they are not the majority.
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I promise you as a microbiologist there is no way of purifying, growing and storing B12-producing bacteria without utilising animal based agars and broths – somewhere along the process, whether it is the original freeze-dried cultures (skim milk media, bovine serum albumin), concentrating the cultures (nutrient broths), – you can’t fool bacteria into becoming vegans!!
So companies that claim their processes are completely vegan – big call.
I saw a great forum post by a vegan Mum, urging fellow forumites to overlook the source of B12 supplements and just jolly well take them!
“Be a shining example of vegan health, not a cracked out B12-anemic make-us-all-look-bad vegan.”
Sums it up beautifully!
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Oh my goodness, I do think you’re saying Vegans can get B12 from manure in the soil on unwashed vegetables. So you can’t eat any animal products, but you can eat their sh*t? That’s ludicrous!
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Anony,
The most expensive gourmet coffee in the world is actually ‘processed’ through the weasel digestive tract and cultivated from its poo. Don’t be so close minded to the delicacies of manure.
Actually the point with the manure is that the *plant* absorbs the pooey source of B12. In general eating dirt on vegetables would have been routine and even non pooey dirt contains B12 – and thus the bacteria may have been naturally included in our diet. However I’m all for reasonable hygiene – I’m not a purist – . I’m happy to get my B12 from a tablet.
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Mabol, you missed my point. I’m not closed minded about manure. I eat meat, and anyone who eats meat should know it is often contaminated with bacteria from the animals own digestive tract (ie manure), along with many other sources I probably inadvertantly eat it from. It is the irony of the extreme purists (and I acknowledge you don’t seem to be one) saying it’s unacceptable to eat any part of an animal or use an animal for your own dietary purposes in any way, and then actually eating animal faeces to get your B12. Guess what purists, eating the animals faeces still counts as using the animal for your own dietary purposes. It’s just an unhygenic and risky way to do it. But it guess it’s more ‘natural’ so it must be better, huh?
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So firstly, I didn’t realise people other than my son called me “mummy” but I do not eat meat and my B12 levels are fine, they are not “very insufficient”. My diet and that of my son has been discussed with a dietitian given I am vegetarian (have been for 13 years) and no longer eat eggs or dairy thanks to my sons allergies (for the last 12 months). So your comment;
“Google is a pain in the ass allowing unqualified people who claim they’ve done their research to totally delude their laymen a$$es into thinking they’re legitimately educated on a myriad of topics.”
… is irrelevant to me. My dietitian has her qualifications from real sources, not just google scholar.
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Old news. Please see:
http://animalliberation.org.au/blog/98-vitamin-b12-fuss.html
Fact: B12 deficiency is prevalent among much of the (older) population. Vegans generally fare no worse (or better) in this particular department.
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An adult vegan can voluntarily live with a B12 deficit their choice, I really don’t care – but for the sake of their kids, they should supplement themselves if choosing to breastfeed and their kids, should they decide to raise them vegan.
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I thought raw mushrooms had b12?
Isn’t why they call the ‘meat for vegetarians’?
Great if so – I’m not vegetarian but would eat mushrooms everyday forever!
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This is true; my vegetarian friend had to get B12 injections.
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Sometimes omnivores have to get B12 injections due to a condition known as B12 malabsorption, it’s not just unique to vegans/vegetarians. My husband has this and his B12 levels were better as a vegan than when an omnivore, so were his calcium and iron levels. But this is not law for everyone and without the back up of any exhaustive scientific studies to explain this we can only say that a vegan diet is better for him.
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On the flip side, you can also force your children to eat red meat. I am like you, and have never really enjoyed red meat. Do what’s best for your family, who cares what others think. Those who judge you for this will likely judge you for many other things, as well.
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I’d like to think that you’d pass on your vegan beliefs to your kids (if you have any) merely because it’s the best way for them to eat, and it saves animals from suffering. Those are NOT bad beliefs to have, regardless of what any omnivore tells you.
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Awesome post! Especially the point that your own parents ‘forced’ their own eating preferences on you!
I grew up on mostly meat + 2 veg – god forbid someone puts a chicken schnitzel or boiled carrots in front of me these days, I would hurl it with ungodly strength. The same for chocolate biscuits, interestingly.
I don’t eat a lot of meat, and I never cook it at home. My 3-year-old daughter (fingers crossed) eats what is cooked for her, and thus she doesn’t eat meat. Her dad (who lives apart), calls himself a vegetarian and doesn’t cook meat either.
Am I forcing her to abide by my strict dietary rules? Not really. She’s welcome to make all sorts of choices when she’s old enough to buy her own food and cook it herself. Does her health suffer due to the lack of meat in her diet? Heck no. She is as tall as a 5-year-old, strong as a (young) ox and has so much energy I’d be a billionaire if I could bottle it.
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Great article Avi! Thanks! I have quite a few friends who are vegans and they are raising their children to be vegan too. I fully support this. My vegan friends are some of the healthiest people I know! In the end you will work out what is right for your children.
With regard to choc, Haighs (best chocolate in the world!) dark choc is vegan. It does say milk on the ingredients list but it doesn’t actually have milk in, they have it as the last ingredient on the list because the choc is made in a factory that also has milk products in it. I have double checked this with the Haighs factory and my vegan friends eat it but feel free to call them yourself and check. If you are craving good choc, you most definitely get your fix and keep your vegan status!
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Lindt and Green and blacks also do a dairy free dark chocolate.
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There is also conscious chocolate, which is raw and vegan and SO yummy! (I’m not vegan so eat normal chocolate but this one is just as good!) http://www.consciouschocolate.com.au
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And Loving Earth, it’s Australian, raw vegan, organic, fair trade and AMAZING.
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I really loved this post. Really well written Avi. I think you have articulated what a lot of people feel about their food choices.
I grew up in a ‘meat and 3 veg’ household and now am a Pescatarian (vegetarian who occasionally eats fish/seafood).
While I understand being vegan is the best possible thing for animals, I also think that whatever people do to treat animals well should be commended. Should it be full veganism, great! Should it be a 90% vegetarian diet, Meatless Mondays or a pledge to only eat free range – every bit helps in its own little way.
So I as long as my (hypothetical!) child grew up to make food choices in line with a healthy respect for animals, it would be fine by me.
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My view exactly!! thanks for writing it so well. I believe we can all make a difference no matter how small and its not a blame game or about finger pointing. I think if you are really thinking about the animals and even at least switch to buying free range you are contributing something to lessen the cruelty towards animals.
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Well, the meat and dairy industry will look at some of these comments and pat themselves on the back. The millions of dollars they have invested in getting the general public to believe we need their products has been well spent. What amazes me is the number of people who are willing to stand by what they have been told is right by others rather than what they have learned to be the truth from simple self education. Maybe it is not so simple. Very worrying.
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A bit off topic, but this train of thought reminded me of a recent episode of ‘The Good Wife’ where they were representing the cheese board and were lobbying to get them a better place on the food pyramid – really made you think about where those old school dietary guides came from!
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I have been vegetarian strictly since I was fifteen (note- if you eat chicken and fish you are not vegetarian, if you cave and eat chocolate you are NOT vegan!) and there is no way I would force my choices on other people, including children. I would prepare meat for my children, when they are old enough they can make their own decisions. I think it is wrong to force your diet on anyone.
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But is it wrong to force a (meat-eating) diet on children too then? If they realise they’ve been eating Daisy and Wilbur etc, they can’t take that back.
Just the devil’s advocate speaking…
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I get the irritation at people who claim that a diet including fish and chicken is vegetarian. It’s not, and those claims are a little bit scary – those things are very obviously meat.
But I also get people who say they’re vegetarian or vegan, even if they occasionally indulge in the thing that their ‘diet’ prevents. A label like that makes things less complicated, both in general conversation and in situations like organising food for a flight (for example).
I personally refrain from using the vegetarian tag as I can be a bit lax – not always checking a cheese packet for rennet, going for the sashimi in a restaurant once or twice a year, etc. But for about 99% of the time, I am pretty darned vegetarian.
Also (sorry for essay), I wonder if it might not be for the best that people say they’re vegetarian or vegan, even if it’s not 100% of the time, in terms of a) promoting it as a lifestyle choice, and b) helping to increase vegetarian/vegan choices on restaurant menus? Just a thought..
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So, hang on, you mean that you’d deny your offspring the same healthy diet you have, when meat eating children have shown signs of heart disease from as young as six years old? I believe in freedom of choice, but when kids are young you make all their other decisions for them, or they’d have nothing to learn from. Food is the same. Start them off the best way you can, i.e. vegetarian or vegan, and let them make the meat decision later in life. Not the other way around.
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So no vegetarian kids have heart disease?
What a long bow to draw.
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Not really. I eat meat, probably too much of it, and so do my kids. But even I know that animal products are very high in saturated fats. Almost all the saturated fats we consume would come from animal products. So I’d be guessing we are at greater risk of heart disease than a vegetarian family. I’m sure there are vegetarian kids with heart disease but surely they are much rarer.
Anyway, I’m off to have a sheperds pie for breakfast.
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Kris 2040, if you’re genuinely interested in finding out why vegan kids are less likely ( note, I didn’t say they were immune from) to get heart disease and a whole group of other diseases, such as diabetes, some cancers, asthma, eczema just to name a few, watch a doco called knives over forks. This just an overview and if you’re keen in the science behind the documentary then look up anything written by Dr COllin T Campbell and DR essylsten (I think that’s how you spell his name) and Dr McDougall. These doctors are not vegans but they all believe, and have the peer reviewed scientific data behind them, that a plant based diet is the optimal way of living. Happy reading
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Hi! I think you may find this link helpful to explain about your dairy question… http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/Cows-Milk-A-Cruel-and-Unhealthy-Product.aspx
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I have friends who are strict vegetarians. They have a 2yr old boy who at home only eats vego food. But at his daycare they provide all meals and they do offer a vego option but he was so interested in the spag Bol so they decided to let him eat it. They figure at home will only be vego, than when he gets old enough to make the decision himself he can. But for now if all the kids are happily shovelling down spag Bol they won’t deprive him as he is too young to understand.
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I am a vegetarian and would prefer to raise my toddler the same although I have an omnivore husband who would prefer his way. Basically my way wins because I cook dinner most of the time and I won’t cook meat!
Anyway, there is no way you can know what you will do for your children – my boy has allergies to dairy and eggs and so we are nearly vegan now. I will still allow honey, wool etc, but we are pretty close to being vegan. It’s hard, but really I think children of vegetarian/vegans have excellent diets because mum/dad is thinking about nutrition a lot more than just slapping some meat and potatoes on a plate!
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How is meat and potatoes and veges not nutritious though? What would a kid be lacking by having that “slapped on a plate”?
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Hi there Vegan readers, I want to ask a question that will only serve to highlight my ignorance on the matter, but I do genuinely want to know the answer and figure if you can’t ask MM readers, who can you ask? So, if you choose to be a vegan because you don’t like cruelty to animals (versus, say, for health reasons) why are you against dairy? Is it considered cruel to milk a cow (or any other animal?!) I’m not being facetious… I really don’t know the answer to this? Thanks!
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The conditions the dairy cows are held in are terrible. I had to spend time on farms for uni, they were very poorly cared for, they had to walk to the dairy and back 3 times a day, they would be beaten if they weren’t fast enough, they were walking knee deep in mud because the tracks weren’t maintained then they get foot problems, and still have to do all that walking, and worst of all, the bobby calves (males) are killed because they won’t ever produce milk.
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Dairy summarised:
A cow like any mammal requires to be pregnant to lactate. There is no such animal that just “gives” milk.
In order to obtain bovine milk a cow is inseminated (most usually artificially from the semen obtained from a masturbated bull bred for the purpose). She then starts lactating during gestation and when she delivers her calf the calf is taken away in about a day – just enough for the colostrum to be delivered. (This is because there is not a widespread demand for colostrum. If there was you can bet the calf would not get that either.) When the calf is taken away from her mother both the calf and mother are in deep distress – just like any mammalian mother and child (humans included) would be.
The calf, if male, is useless in the dairy industry since he cannot lactate. Since he is not a “beef” type calf he is also uneconomical for meat. Hence he is killed very early on and sold as veal. If the calf is female then she may either be sold as veal or kept to replace her mother and siters at a later date.
The mother is milked with pretty much no concern for her well being but mainly for economic efficiency – more milk at less cost. Most cows suffer mastitis and other afflictions. Remember, no cow “gives” milk – it is always taken by force. When they start to dry up they will be impregnated again to repeat the process. This may happen three to five times till she starts to produce less and less milk and the industry declares her “spent.” She then goes to the same abattoir as her beef cousins to get killed and turned into mince. She will never be left to live out her life beyond being spent since that is an economic disadvantage to the dairy farmer.
There is so much more detail that I could go to but that sums up the basics.
Beyond all that, dairy is an absolute offence to feminism – the forceful impregnation (rape), exploitation of a female’s reproductive system and the stealing of her offspring. I cannot understand how anyone who consumes bovine milk could ever identify as a feminist.
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Resummarised:
We wean our children off human milk to then replace it with the bovine milk taken from cows from whom their own children are stolen so that the cow’s milk can be stolen for our children weaned off human milk while we feed the cow’s calf a diet of something other than the bovine milk her own mother is producing for her.
If that doesn’t make sense it’s because it – well – doesn’t.
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‘Anonymous’ summarised it fairly well, but there’s also the issue that cows are very ‘caring’ and good mothers. How would we, as humans, feel if someone/thing came and took OUR babies when they were just a few days old??? Yeap, I use to be ignorant and think “oh but cows don’t ‘feel’ or know whats happening”, well they DO and it’s been scientifically proven that it causes them HUGE distress when their calves are taken from them so they can then produce milk for us humans.
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I see your point about drinking milk from a dairy farm (calf taken away from mother etc.), but would you drink milk from a cow that you tended to in your own back paddock (which you could let it keep its offspring)? For vegans, is drinking milk the issue or is it how the milk is obtained?
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No. Here are a few reasons, there are more if you wish to take it further:
1. No mammal produces lactational fluid apart from for their own offspring. Except maybe humans (wet nurses) who might do it for money or because they are enslaved. All mammals lactate expressely to feed their own offspring and they do not care to feed others, be they bovine or human.
2. The original cow must be obtained from somewhere – usually a commercial operation. All girls have a brother and you can be sure her brother was murdered in infancy for veal.
3. The cow and her offspring would require to be kept alive for their natural lives. Apart from making for very, very expensive milk, what do you do with all these offspring?
4. Modern dairy cows are fully freaks of nature, producing 5kL of milk per year. They have been selectively bred to become efficient milk machines at great cost to their own comfort, life expectancy, vulnerability to diseases, etc. Only 30 years ago a typical dairy cow produced 2kL of milk per year. What “progress.” Modern dairy cows should not exist. There is obviously an issue with considering those that are extant but perpetuating dairy is an offence to nature (or God if you will), to natural sensibilities and to the poor cows themselves.
5. Once you realise the absurdity of consuming the lactational fluid of another species, and that well after you have been weaned off the lactional fluid of you own mother, any other reason will be largely irrelevant anyway.
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And one last point: it perpetuates the paradigm of nonhumans existing purely as instrumental entities for human needs – the root of speciesism and our mistreatment of all nonhumans.
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This is interesting when you start researching it. The issue with dairy is the amount of animal protein it has and that it is designed for maximum growth of a baby cow in a short time. We really don’t need this amount of protein considering breastmilk designed for human babies has much less.
The majority of the world especially Asians and Africans are lactose intolerant. The only reason milk has been promoted as healthy and how many serves you need per day etc is because it has calcium but there are many plant foods that have more calcium plus we absorb it better combined with all the other nutrients in plants.
Something a lot of people don’t know is the countries that have the highest rates of osteoporosis are the highest dairy eaters because it’s so acidic. We’ve all been sold a lie by the dairy industry that we are slowly waking up to- alternatives eg soy rice oat almond milk are one of the biggest growing grocery items. I’ve seen their shelf space increase incredibly in supermarkets over the last 10 years plus new varieties appearing like oat and almond. The US dairy industry feels so threatened by this move away from milk they’ve produced Not Milk ads.
When people give up dairy they reverse many illnesses plus their immune systems improve and they don’t get seasonal illnesses,sinus problems, colds flus etc plus asthma! Many misdiagnosed or undisgnosed digestion and stomach problems are caused by dairy. Asthma and eczema rates would drop dramatically on a dairy free diet. There’s also evidence that autism improves combined with a wheat free diet. Going dairy free is really worth doing just to see how much better you’ll feel. I know I’ve stopped getting yearly colds, sinus and chest infections plus allergies. Make your own milk- blend almonds with water and squeeze through fine mesh bag- yum!
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Look, I admire your passion(all of you) and I do have issues with modern meat production. However I also have issues with modern veggie crop production, harvest and storage, but that apparently is ok.
However, when you say autism improves on a dairy and wheat free diet, I say enough.
Don’t parents of an autistic child have enough to go through as it is? If it were a well researched fact, surely we would have heard of it, or it may be part of their treatment.
As for almond milk, I’ve tried it and it’s not yum at all. It’s pretty vile. So there’s no way I’m making my own.
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I knew as soon as I wrote that there’d be someone jumping on it. You can do the research and you’ll find many many parents online that did a casein/gluten free diet with improvements eg hugging and being called Mum for the first time. Many kids with autism have digestion problems diarrhea etc and the head/bowel link has been established by researchers working in this area. Yes you are right it has not been accepted by the medical mainstream as they do not cover nutrition in a medical degree so unless they’ve undertaken further self motivated study they can’t/ won’t implement this with their patients.
There is a dr in Sydney working with autism patients doing this diet and research Dr Antony Underwood. I remember seeing him on SBS Insight autism special some years ago and talking about reversal of symptoms he’d seen in his patients. There was another doctor there who flat out denied the connection between autism and diet.
I used to teach in a resource centre plus at a special ed school -unbelievable the crap that used to come to school in their lunch boxes… plus I’d see the bread and dairy and think of these kids not reaching their full potential because food and nutrition is widely ignored. Plus yes parents are not receiving the right advice.
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Faybian, just because you haven’t heard of gluten/dairy free diet as treatment for Autisn, does not mean that it’s not a valid option for parents.
I just popped autisn gluten caesin through google scholar and numerous studies came up. They’re all relatively new and with very small control group, i.e. less than 20 patients. They are showing varying results, some saw an improvement and others didn’t. The one thing they all had in common, was the recommendation that further, larger studies be conducted for more conclusive results.
On an anecdotal level, I am a teacher in the public system, and am incresingly seeing parents suggested this treatment by their doctors. This is not to say that diet is suggested as a replacement for more traditional and effective therapies, such speech theray, OT, applied behaviour modification, etc, but rather as something they can try in conjuction with these therapies.
All I’m trying to say is that this that a gluten/dairy free diet as a supplementary treatment for Autism has slowly gained moementum in the last 10 years, and there have been some positive results. So much so, that researchers are getting involved and testing with controlled groups.
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On an anecdotal level, the studies may be fine, but groups of 20 are still small groups and you know that, particularly if the results are varied. If more studies, of larger, randomized groups are performed and show good results, then I’m sure the nutritionists at work (yes, I work for health) will be letting us know. See I don’t rely just on GPs either.
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Couldnt edit, so I’ll add my final thoughts. It’s actually the attitudes of some vegans that are the most off putting to me. I’m happy to eat vegan/vegetarian meals and do on occasion, but I will not be bludgeoned/guilted into it. Some people, however well intentioned they may be come off like super keen born agains, eager to convert everyone they meet and if they can’t,” well you’re going to hell”. I suspect I’m not the only one who feels this way, so maybe keep it in mind the next time you’re keen to convince people how wrong/cruel they are.
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Faybian, sorry could reply to your last comment so I have to do it up here.
I know you’re in the medical field, midwife? I’ve seen you comment on here and usually find my self agreeing with what you have to say, especially on articles about parenting.
what I was trying to say
With regards to diet and autism, you’ve kind of made my point. Have large studies being done? No yet. Will they be? Probably. That’s what all these smaller studies are suggesting. Just because it hasn’t reached you at the hospital level doesn’t mean that it’s an avenue the parents shouldn’t explore. If I had an autistic child and was suggested a diet that is in no way harmful and that doesn’t discourage me from continuing all other traditional treatment options, why wouldn’t I give it a go?
Apologies for all my spelling mistakes in this post and my previous posts. I’m writing this from an iPhone. My fingers are too large for the keys and I cant scroll back to check what I’ve written. Again, very sorry.
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My comment is to lovegreens! below. To say that doctors do not study nutrition in a basic medical degree is almost the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard. Have you done a medical degree? I have and I can tell you I learned plenty about nutrition. Also, those parents who followed an elimination diet and noticed improvements in their autisitic children? Have you considered it was because, coincidentally, they were receiving other therapies for their autisim at the same time? When mainstream medicine doesn’t endorse something, it’s because there is no adequate scientific evidence to do so. Scientific evidence. Not anecdote from internet Mums.
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I am a vegetarian, my kids and bloke eat meat. Some eat a lot more meat than the others, but they all eat less than the average. They do have better options of balanced eating because I do.Like you, I avoided meat as a child. I have been a vegetarian for over 18 years now, and that is since before the last three of my five children were born – and they are robust & healthy people:)
When I was working in a major software centre with 52 nationalities, I met Indian nationals who were third and fourth generation vegan. And incredibly healthy. They wondered what on earth the fuss was about. Eat healthy is the key to diet, surely.
I do wonder about this one size fits all approach of a society that struggles so with weight in all the myriad ways it does…
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I wouldn’t ‘force’ my children to be vegetarian, just as I wouldn’t ‘force’ them to eat meat, or ‘force’ them to like dairy. All my teens (and myself) have gone through eating phases and it is my job as their mother to make sure that they understand why we eat and why it has to be nutritious. Regardless of ‘phase’ we do have a family vegan day once a week and always have, just don’t let my husband know as he considers himself a pure carnivore.
Oh and I’m using the term ‘phase’ to mean a period of time rather than any negative connotation it may have.
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Avi, I think you will make an EXCELLENT Mother. Your children will be so lucky to enjoy nutritious, wholesome foods and they will be healthy and thriving without meat! What we give our kids to eat is important, but sometimes people carry on like it’s the be-all-and-end-all.
I would LOVE to be vegan because I too hate cruelty to animals and I also think, what makes us as humans believe we have the right to use animals for our own purpose and benefit – and I swear, I couldn’t sleep for weeks after watching ‘Earthlings’, even now I’m disturbed by what I saw – but my weakness is cheese (french cheeses especially) and I’ve tried soooo many times to be vegan but the bloody cheese gets me every time!
Good on you for sticking to something you believe in. I think you’re amazing!
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Oh cheese, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways…
Just quitely, Jane, I think you sound like a bit of a legend yourself
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Gosh I love this article. I really do! Thanks for writing it, thanks MM for publishing it. People are getting a bit cranky and judgy. But I think those people may have missed the point. The moral of this article (unless I’m severely daft) is “let’s not be judgy about this stuff”. And a great message it is too. I think everyone sometimes get a little defensive when faced with these conversations. But Avi, I agree with you 100%.
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I hate how some, not all but some, vegans and vegetarians think they can accuse meat eaters of abusing or hating animals. I love animals but yea I eat meat. I don’t feel guilty because I’m not eating endangered species. I respect your choices and don’t judge so why can’t I be offered the same respect of my choices?
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Mel, how can you kill somehting you love just because they might taste good?
Sincerely?
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Firstly I don’t kill anything. I look after my pets and don’t plan on eating them. I don’t feel the same way about chickens though anonymous and I’m honest about that. I don’t want them to suffer though. And again you’ve proven my point about judgy non meat eaters. But you must be perfect I guess and therefore free from judgement.
Now I’m off to keep timing my contractions!
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good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You eat chicken? That means you kill chickens.
You eat beef? That means you kill cattle.
You eat lamb? That means you kill sheep.
You eat fish? That means you kill fish.
Mel, there’s no judgement here, just an exposition of the facts.
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Mel hasn’t denied that. At all.
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But she did! In her very first sentence!
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She said she doesn’t personally do the killing, but is comfortable that that is what happens for her to eat meat.
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I think the attitude that you are not killing anything when you eat meat is worse than the realisation that you are. At least in the second scenario you are taking responsibility for your actions and acknowledging that your eating meat has only been possible through the death of the animal- regardless of who did the actual killing.
If a meat-eater would not be prepared to actually kill the animal themselves that they eat, yet are happy for someone else to, this seems almost cowardly and I think says something about how they really feel about the issue. They do think it’s wrong yet if it’s “out of sight, out of mind” they are happy to ignore it.
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Or maybe you only ‘love’ animals when it suits you. Be honest.
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I agree with you Anonymous. I think when most people say they love animals, they mean “some” animals. Vegans love ALL animals, regardless of how cute and cuddly they may be. I see beauty in a rat, or a mouse and I would no more kill one of them than kill one of my pets.
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What about an eastern brown crawling through your yard, that could kill your kids? Do you honestly love them?
Or a mossie that’s just had its meal off your leg, or the liver fluke (worm) that makes its home in your body, but also makes you quite sick?
After all, they’ve done nothing wrong, but do you honestly love them???
I certainly wouldn’t. Wouldn’t hate them either, but I wouldn’t be real keen on them.
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Being vegan does not require you to love all animals. Heck, I don’t love all humans, let alone all the other species.
But just because I don’t love you does not give me the right to exploit or kill you – and as I vegan I apply this moral consideration to all animals, human or nonhuman.
If I saw a snake in the yard I’d do the same as if I saw a human trespasser in my yard – whatever it takes to protect myself and those around me.
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So when the rodents you’ve refused to kill gnaw through your wiring and cause a house fire, you may die along with them, but I guess at least you’ve still got the moral high ground.
Or the plague.
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Clearly we should all be living in mud huts and communicating via scratching on bark.
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Have you seen this book Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows: an Introduction to Carnism by Melanie Joy? Haven’t read this yet but have read Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer. Why you wouldn’t eat a dog but you’d eat a baby lamb. Americans eat cow but not dog. Hindus eat chickens but not cow. Foer’s main argument is unavoidable- in today’s world of widespread factory farming either you don’t eat meat or you support a lot of animal pain and suffering.
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I think everyone needs to simmer down a little. I’m vegan, my boyfriend eats meat. I make my decisions and he makes his. We have 2 dogs and I never worry that one day I’ll come home to him eating a pug sandwich.
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Pugs are awesome! We have two, and I’m quite happy to eat a chicken, but wouldn’t eat a pug. I don’t honestly care if vegetarians think that makes me a hypocrite.
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We have 2 pugs as well! I’m vegan, and I don’t think you’re a hypocrite!! Chicken is probably the better way to go, Plus I think pug meat would be tough
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Thanks for this article. I’ve been a vegetarian since I was 12.
We decided to let our daughters choose their diet. They all have chosen a vegetarian diet with the exception of our middle daughter who is vegan.
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With a family of 4 eaters we constantly change our eating habits depending on our discussions on how someone is feeling. Meaning for months we will be vegetarians, then we will add chicken or fish & then back to vegetarian. If one of my children ask for red meat i will cook it but i have to say this is not very often. My children are very healthy & happy the only concern is the reaction from others when you say “no red meat thank you” The look of horror on their faces is amazing!! I am not giving my children fried, sugar loaded meals but somehow not giving them red meat is almost considered bad parenting! If more people did research on what is in our “foods” today more people would be changing what they are eating & giving their children.
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Sorry Avi, but if you eat chocolate – even if it’s only occasionally – you are NOT a vegan. Vegans eschew ALL dairy products. And there’s plenty of tasty non-dairy chocolate options out there.
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So you’re the boss of the word ‘vegan’, are you? People are only allowed to use it if they agree exactly with your definition?
Judgy McJudge.
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I understand the benefits of a vegan or vegetarian diet but I don’t really think that should be ‘forced’ onto children. Surely there’s a middle ground — e.g. A high vegetable diet with (perhaps small) portions of meat. I don’t have children myself, but particularly with dairy, are vegan substitutes enough?
(Genuinely curious.)
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Got the facts on Milk? The Milk Documentary
Forks over Knives
Watch these, or any other health documentaries that aren’t sponsored by the dairy or meat industries, and you’ll have a better understanding of why vegan parents chose to ‘force’ their dietary choice on their children.
You also might want to read:
The China Study by Collin T. Campbell
Diesease Proof Your Child by Joel Furhman
Engine 2 Diet by Rip Esselstyn
These are just the tip of the iceberg, there’s stacks of info out there.
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Thanks anon these are great resources and best of all from docs who are going against medical mainstream and concentrating on what we eat. Dr McDougall MD also has a great online lecture on what is wrong with milk.
There will always be cynics, especially on here when it is anything to do with food reversing chronic illness etc. So much disbelief but we can only come to that place of belief and change ourselves. Taking control of our own health is the most powerful thing you can do…plus stop going to the docs for a pill for every ill, research and start eating the most nutritious food you can buy and your body will pay you back by keeping healthy.
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I find the terminology “forcing” your child to be vegan so frustrating. Really, by this consideration, whatever a parent feeds their young child is “forcing” them. When that child is old enough to make their own choices, prepare their own food etc, who is to say a vegan will try and control that child’s choices more than an omnivore would?
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Because omnivores are still by and large what most people are, and vegans usually have pretty strong reasons for not eating animal products. You can be a wishy washy omnivore and like vego food easily, but it’s hard to go the other way and be a vegan who has the occasional meat.
I think forcing is pretty apt when you’re actively choosing to restrict another person’s diet.
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This is a logical fallacy known as “appealing to the masses”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Just because the majority do something does not make it inherently right, just because the majority follow an omnivorous diet does not make it the best diet. There are many other factors involved such as culture, habit etc which cause it to be the most common. If it were possible for everyone to be given the choice at the outset, to eat meat or not, I think less people would actively CHOOSE to eat meat than who currently do.
I would argue that it is not hard for a vegan child to eat the occasional meat, once they have the capacity to understand, because they don’t already hold the morality behind veganism as their own. Once they develop their own sense of morality, they could just as easily go with the meat option. Now here you could argue “but they’ll be influenced by their parents views!”, but really this will of course be true for most things, religion, politics etc.
Every parent restricts their child’s diet in some way, no child eats everything! The difference is that because veganism isn’t the norm, this is seen as a restriction more than the parents who don’t feed their children enough veggies for example. But this is all because of the above logical fallacy. We need to objectively look at the diets and see what each lack, and then make up for these faults.
I hope this didn’t seem like an attack, it can be hard to properly convey tone, but I only meant it as a civil disagreement!
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It’s certainly logical, not a fallacy so much. There seem to be a few comments here about people falling for advertising, but I’m assuming that MLA, etc etc weren’t around when people started eating meat.
I think, like with religion, that yes you’re able to develop your own morals etc, but it’s a lot harder to try and go against your parent’s strong beliefs (in this case that meat and animal products are wrong) than it is to come from an omnivorous background and decide to omit something.
I don’t agree with kids being indoctrinated into a particular religion either. I don’t mind your politics or religion informing your parenting, but to force them on to your kids I don’t think is good – I think they should be shown all the options and allowed to make up their own mind when they’re ready to. I see veganism (or any restriction of food) as being in the same boat.
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No “logical fallacy” means it is illogical- the logic is false. It is not a logical argument to make.
I’m not sure what you mean about advertising, if this was a reply to something in my post.
I very much agree with you on the second part though. I think it’s best to encourage independent thought, so that kids can make up their own minds on these important issues.
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Avi, I think what the comments on this post have shown is that beyond simply educating your children about their food choices, you will also have to teach them that no matter what choice they make, someone is going to judge them for it. Someone is always going to make assumptions about their lifestyle and spout off uninformed opinions about what they’re doing right or wrong.
For the record, I eat everything – meat, seafood, dairy (as much ice-cream as I can, although I’m mildly intolerant!), grains, fruits, veggies, nuts, whatever. I have friends who are vegans, vegetarians, ovo-lacto vegetarians, pescetarians, full carnivores. It doesn’t bother me what people eat. I just make sure that I can cater for them appropriately if we share a meal together.
My future children will probably eat the same as what I eat, simply because I don’t fancy cooking several meals at the same time. If they make the decision themselves that they want to become vegetarian or follow another diet, then they will need to learn to cook for themselves, with my intervention when necessary.
Let’s recognise that people will raise their children the best way they know how…not the best way YOU know how.
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Considering that some vegans consider that vegan ism is a complete lifestyle.. Have they considered that cotton (not meat) is awful on the environment, really water consumer, hemp clothing isn’t common enough and synthetics are, well chemical based. It would seem that every choice you can make has consequences.
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That can be as simple as a case of property damage vs personal damage. Except of course that today the law regards animals as property.
Of course every action can bring unintentional harm to others. But intentional harm is different. A murder and an accidental death are different things. When you want meat (or dairy or eggs) that *necessarily* and *intentionally* involves harm to other sentient beings.
Veganism is not perfect but it is *the simplest* and arguably most effective form of harm minimisation.
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And even so, by the time you consider how much plant material has been cycled through animals to get animal sources you will see that cotton – as bad as it might be – still is a “better” solution.
Consider this example: A typical cow or steer eats 50kg of plant material a day and drops 25kg of wet poo a day – for 2 years. Suddenly leather does not look so nice. Same for sheep, etc.
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This is a hilarious argument …surely you’ve followed it in your mind to where it logically leads? exterminate all cattle to save the earth from cattle pollution and resource waste!!
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Yes – you nailed it. That is the ultimate solution. All *domesticated* cattle.
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Why? Undomesticated cows don’t poop? Kill ALL the cows!!
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You hate the planet > : (
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“Consider this example: A typical cow or steer eats 50kg of plant material a day and drops 25kg of wet poo a day – for 2 years. Suddenly leather does not look so nice. Same for sheep, etc”
[citation needed]
Pretty sure a cow doesn’t produce 25kg of excreta per day (an elephant probably would)
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“Milk cows produce the most manure at 62 kg per day” darn, google says they poo a lot!!
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Spoken like a city slicker. Evidently you have never mucked a paddock. Yes, they do!
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Agreed. It’s not about being absolutely perfect.
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That was my point. I really don’t care what people eat, it’s their choice, but some of the posts from vegans come across as a bit holier than thou, such as anonymous below. Maybe there’s some defensiveness there too.
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It’s true, but there are many important causes- palm oil and the rainforests, vegetarianism/veganism and animals, fair trade and human justice etc. We need to stop looking at others as hypocrites for supporting one cause and not another, and rather focus on harm-minimisation by seeing that any action to improve any one of these areas is a positive thing.
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Harm minimisation without being vegan is fiddling while Rome burns.
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I disagree. Each person has their own sense of morality, emphasising certain issues over others, and will act accordingly. They will “harm-minimise” in the areas they view as morally important, if you will.
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Each year almost 60billion sentient terrestrial creatures are forcefully killed for food. Similarly over a trillion aquatic creatures. The only solution to prevent over a trillion deaths? Veganism.
Animal agriculture produces more greenhouse gasses than all the world’s transportation – planes, cars – rail – ships, etc. – combined. Esimates range from 20 to 50% of GH emissions. Slow down climate change dramatically, immediately (or if you don’t believe that prevent GH gasses anyway) at *zero* cost? Veganism.
The world has 2billion starving humans. Admittedly this is as much a political and logistical problem as a food shortage problem. But consider that America’s cattle alone eat more plant material (grown on soy farms, corn farms, etc.) than those 2 million people could ever eat and food parity becomes a real possibility. How to stop throwing 2billion human’s worth of food down cattle’s guts? Veganism.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. And we have not even touched on morals or rights.
Please, please, show me just one* movement or ideology that provides such great savings at no cost, requires no further technological advance (or regression) to make it happen, shows equal concern to all sentient beings and requires nothing more than a single decision to do it.
There is no doubt that veganism is not a “silver bullet” and does not solve all the worlds problems. But it is the elephant in the room.
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I love this comment.
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It’s called a food chain. A lot of animals eat meat. You dont seem to be complaining about lions eating antelope and other animals, it’s nutritionally important and has been happening for a lot longer than a bunch of hipsters trying to be vegan.
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Ok, perhaps I was unclear. My point was that any positive action should be taken as such, regardless of whether it fits into a neat category of ‘vegan’ or ‘not vegan’. The person who is vegan for half the time and therefore having half the positive effect of a full-time vegan is still having a positive effect compared to zero. The vegetarian who has similar positive effects in these areas to vegans, just to a lesser degree, is still having a positive effect. Yet these groups are so often judged: “oh, they’re not a REAL vegan”, “oh, they’re ONLY a vegetarian”. They may not be a real vegan, fitting into a specific category, yet they’re still doing something in order to have a positive effect.
This was the point I was trying to make. Vegan-vegetarian-omnivore etc is a continuum and each step along it can result in reduced harm, yet if someone doesn’t fall into an arbitrary category, their contribution is judged as meaningless.
I hope I’ve made my point clearer.
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Sigh – usually MM-ers are so good at living and letting live. The comments on this post are so intrusive and dictatorial
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I never understand why comments like these become so heated. You can lack important nutrients and vitamins and be incredibly unhealthy whether you eat meat and dairy or not. Parents adhering to a vegan diet could argue that forcing kids to eat meat isn’t right just the same. The judgement needs to stop.
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I think it’s because people seem to take views that aren’t the same as their own as ‘attacks’ on them and their views, and react defensively by attacking back, even though it’s not necessary. We all need to just chill and be a bit more respectful!
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