Career

This is an interview I did with Career Chick magazine in early 2007.

When you first started working at Cleo, was it your ambition to become editor or was it a goal that evolved over time?

I started at Cleo doing unpaid work experience and decided I wanted to be editor by the time I was 25 years old. It was a goal that I clung to with both hands, but for a while it started to look like it wasn’t going to happen. I was passed over for promotion a couple of times and I was devastated by the idea that my dream might not come true so I left, got a bit disillusioned, and thought I might start doing something different. I eventually let go of that idea and soon after I was offered the job of editing Cosmo. Go figure. 

You were offered the job of Cosmo editor at a young age. Was it difficult managing and working with people who were sometimes twice your age?

" When I started at Cosmo everyone was older than me and I certainly made some mistakes with my management style.  I was also very impatient to have a new team because I didn’t want to have staff who were constantly telling me ‘But we’ve always done it THIS way…’  So it was important to hand-pick my team even though it took a few years.  Eventually, everyone was younger than me but in some ways they were more difficult to manage because often they lived highly dramatic lives, as twenty-somethings do… break-ups, partying…. always a drama."

Early in your career, what were a few of the most important lessons that you learnt?

"I learnt that I was very over-confident. The older I got, the more I found I didn’t know! It’s a lesson that I’m still learning.

Managing staff is something that you never really learn. As an editor you usually go down the path of being a journalist first. Journalists are very good with words but that doesn't neccessarily mean they're good with people. Managing and nurturing staff is something that I learnt through trial and error, and for the most part it was one of my favourite parts of the job. Seven of my staff from Cosmo have gone on to become editors of other magazines. Two of them started as my PA. Another of my PAs became a beauty editor.  I’m not going to take credit for any of the jobs any of them got, but to be able to say I was a step along the way makes me really proud.

Another lesson would be to never lose sight of your market and who they are. I think a lot of people forget who they are producing their magazine (or product or service) for and they start doing it to impress their friends or peers. That’s a classic mistake. Keep your eye - and your head and your heart - on the reader at all times."

What would you say to people that may think they are too proud to work for free?

"Good Luck! I was part of Generation X and therefore willing to do whatever it took to get into the magazine industry. I started off photo-copying and getting lunch for Lisa Wilkinson and whoever else at Cleo needed it. My plan was always to try and make myself indispensible and to begin with, that meant doing all the menial stuff. I have noticed that Gen Y-ers can be hugely impatient and aggressively ambitious. I have both those qualities in spades so I can relate. But if you’re not willing to do the menial tasks first, you may not get a chance to get your foot in the door, let alone be promoted. I understand they all have degrees, which I didn’t have at that stage, but whether it’s work experience, working for free or getting someone’s coffee, if it gets you in the door then that’s what you need to do. "

When you began your role as editor, you started taking a lot of risks. What are some of the major risks you took and why were you willing to take them?

"There was one major risk I took (to the bemusement of my boss at the time) and that was to put bigger girls on the pages of Cosmo. I had grown up devouring glossy magazines and I had seen the damage they could do in terms of unrealistic body images and diets, which can make women feel bad about themselves. I knew, as a reader, when I flicked through the pages and saw all of these perfect models I felt fat and ugly. But I knew that doing something different could be potentially damaging for the brand and I knew it would be taking a huge gamble. The moment I said I wanted to put a size 16 model in a fashion shoot, it became a talking point in the industry. Everybody was horrified! The photographer didn’t want to be credited and no one wanted to send clothes for the shoot. Even though my boss wasn’t thrilled about the idea, she had the confidence in me to say, ‘Let’s try it’.  The readers loved it! So in the end it turned out to be a great doorway for a huge marketing push and it went on to inspire our ‘Body Love’ campaign. All of a sudden the magazine was showing women of all sizes. Circulation and readership went through the roof over the next few years, as did advertising. It was the start of a real growth phase for Cosmo – literally!"

Some critics claim that all beauty magazines promote low self-esteem. What is your opinion?

"This was something I tried to tackle when I first started in magazines. I think there can be some truth in the accusation but I also believe that magazines are a great way to educate. In the seventies, magazines used to portray golden-brown models baking in the sun and smoking cigarettes. These days magazines can deliver powerful messages such as 'smoking kills', 'sun can cause wrinkles and skin cancer', and 'always practise safe sex'. It’s about balance. Today I feel disappointed when I look in a magazine and see only one type of skinny girl. But all I could do was try to make a difference in the magazines I had control over. Ultimately, I couldn't change the entire industry."

Did you feel that your personality began to change with the added responsibility and the need to make strong decisions on a daily basis?

"I sometimes find it odd that I’m more assertive in my work life than in my personal life. Having said that, I’m not confrontational. I never raise my voice at work and never have. I’m very nurturing to my staff and I always maintain great working relationships with all my colleagues. I’m no Devil Wears Prada! Although at the end of my time in magazines, I certainly became less tolerant and less patient with people who weren’t doing their jobs properly. I have high standards but I’m fair. Managing a team of staff is like being one of those people who spin plates on sticks – just when you think they’re all spinning, one goes wobbly and you have to attend to it. It’s very rare that all the plates are spinning perfectly at the same time. The biggest change for me was when I gave birth to my first child. It really changed me as a person. I had more perspective and I was more efficient. I like to think I got better at my job as I got older – I certainly got faster. Having kids changes you in every way."

How did becoming a mother influence your work?

"I had only been at Cosmo for a little while when I fell pregnant with my son (I was about 25 years old). When I told my boss, she said I would be a better editor when I was a mother. And she was right. Being a mother keeps me grounded, especially in an industry that’s based on superficiality.

Initially, I never wrote about being a mother when I was at Cosmo. That was one of the reasons I knew it was time to move on. Being a mother has become more and more of who I am and influences everything I think and do. That’s where writing my newspaper column and features for other magazines with older audiences have been so great for me. I really needed that creative outlet to talk about issues I think so many mothers face. I love the ability to communicate with other women and show that I am just like everyone else – I do sometimes feed my children tuna from a can and we do have cereal for dinner occasionally. My life is not perfect and I am not any kind of superwoman. I know what it feels like to sit at home and think ‘everyone has it together except me’ when really they don’t at all. Trust me, women who appear perfect never are. We all drop the balls when we’re juggling, no matter how much money and fame and support we have. So I try to be as honest as I can. I think if there was more honesty from women who are in the public eye then women everywhere would feel so much better about themselves."

Did you find that having children slowed down your productivity in your career?

"After I had my second child, I realised that for about a year after the birth of each of my children I lose my ambition. It’s lovely! I mean I just dive into my babies and that’s all I care about. Although I was still involved in work both times, I took a decent amount of maternity leave and focused everything on my children (although looking back I wish I'd taken longer with both kids). Then I start to get itchy feet. Or maybe an itchy brain. I try to strike the right balance and sometimes I get it right and mostly I get it wrong. It’s strange, when I’m at home with a newborn baby I can’t ever imagine loving work again, but when I’m back at work I can’t imagine being at home full-time again. Being a Libra, I’m always looking for the balance between the two and often I don’t find it! But I keep looking because they’re both important to me. In terms of productivity, I think mothers are the most efficient people in the world because they have to be. You have no time to sit at your desk and cruise the internet because you want to get out of there and get home to the kids."

What advice would you give to other parents that are trying to juggle work and family?

"It’s an ongoing struggle for everybody. I certainly won’t say I have the answer. You just have to keep trying and be kind to yourself. Find friends in the same boat and support each other. When things feel bleak, reassure each other that no, you’re not crap mothers and you’re not crap at your job. I think the trick is not beating yourself up over it. And keep reassessing. If it doesn’t feel right and if guilt or exhaustion is crippling you, it might be time to make a change."

What are your top tips for women who need to increase their self-esteem and body image?

Stop judging yourself against celebrities. They lie – they pretend that they don’t diet, they pretend they don’t exercise and they pretend they don’t have nannies. They pretend they have perfect lives and it’s simply not true. Don’t judge yourself by those standards. Go talk to your friends, or your mother, or go to the beach and look at the bodies of real women, rather than reading an interview with Gwyneth Paltrow. We all compare ourselves to other people and I think we do it too much. Instead of looking at what is lacking in our lives, we should look at what gifts we have already.

What are your top fashion tips for everyday women?

Two tips to remember about fashion:

1.    It’s not brain surgery or rocket science. So have fun with it. At the end of the day they're just clothes, so don’t get tooo caught up with labels or what celebrities are wearing.

2.    Seek the counsel of men (yes, you heard me correctly). Find out what the men in your life think about what you wear. I don’t mean that men should dress you, but they do have an innate ability to cut through all of the distractions and get straight to the point. For example, ‘Why are you wearing a pirate shirt?’ or ‘Why are you wearing a dress over your jeans?’ Answers like, ‘Well, Cameron Diaz was wearing it!’ or ‘It’s Gucci’, have no relevance to men. Give them the space to be honest and then make your decision based on what you feel like wearing today.

Is there any similarity between you and the lead character from The Devil Wears Prada?

God, I loved that movie! I think what differs from myself and that character is that I have always been nurturing as a boss, and every personal assistant I have had has gone onto do amazing things because I’ve supported and promoted them. I’m always very close with all my staff. There are things that I do identify with in that role though. You do become a bit ivory tower and start to think, ‘Why is it so hard to get this done?’ And the reason you lose touch with that is because you don’t actually DO some things anymore and you may not be aware of the process. What a great film though. There are a lot of books and movies written about the magazine industry, so we hear it all and read it all but there was a lot of truth to this particular film.

What mistakes did you make and what did you learn from them?

Someone once told me, ‘You learn by commission not omission’. That is, you learn by what you do, not by what you’re too scared to do. I think it’s very healthy to make mistakes and I was fortunate to have a boss who was willing to let me make them. When I first started at Cosmo I made plenty of mistakes and my boss was smart enough to give me just enough rope to learn, but not enough to hang myself or damage the magazine irreparably. For example, one of the first things I did at Cosmo (and this is a classic case of editing for yourself and not your readers) was to decide that there were too many sex and relationship articles. I decided to get rid of all of them, which we did – and then we watched circulation go down the toilet. Lesson learnt (and very quickly)! Just because I had moved into a new phase of my life (I was almost a mother) and had moved away from those types of stories, there were still plenty of 18 year olds who wanted to read them. This was a brand that had been around for 40 years and who was I to come in and say that the mix was all wrong? I was ignorant to think that I was going to do better when the content was already working. It just needed to be refreshed. After an international Cosmo conference, the realisation suddenly dawned on me – I had been given a gift to work with such a strong brand. I could work within the framework of Cosmo and change things around, but really, the strength of the brand was my biggest asset.

What made you decide to leave your job as Cosmo editor?

There were a few watershed moments where I knew it was time to leave Cosmo. I was there for about 100 issues and some really interesting times in my life. But I needed a new challenge. I was a mother and I felt that my life interests were changing. I think as you get older everyone gets a bit more conservative and I realised that Cosmo needed a breath of fresh air. I didn’t want to be the face of the magazine anymore, or to carry the banner for sealed sections or have to defend the oral sex articles. As editor-in-chief of Cosmo, Cleo and Dolly– a role I took on after editing Cosmo – I enjoyed teaching editors and nurturing them, guiding the magazine, and taking a big picture view. I did this for a year or two before I grew tired of nurturing other people’s creativity. I wanted to own something and be more hands on.

Can you describe how your career has progressed in recent years?

After my daughter was born I went on maternity leave.  It was during those first months after my daughter was born that I decided that I didn’t really want to go back. Funnily enough, at about the same time I received a call from Eddie McGuire. I had met him a few times over the years, and having just been appointed as CEO of the Nine Network, he offered me a job. Basically, he was tired of sitting in a boardroom with 20 men trying to work out what women wanted to watch on television. It seemed like a great opportunity, so I accepted.

What have been some of the major turning points in your career and what have you learnt from them?

•    "One of my unhappiest times was when I was in my early twenties. I was holding onto the dream of being the editor of Cleo so tightly that I was utterly devastated when I was passed over for promotion a number of times. It was only when I let go of that dream that other opportunities came to me. You shouldn't be too narrow in your focus. You need to have an open mind and understand that perhaps the way to get to B is not from A.

•    When is it time to leave? When I decided to leave Cosmo I realised that I had reached a point where I was about to overstay my welcome. I realised creatively that it was time to move on. I simply didn’t want to be a 40-year-old woman writing for Cosmo and pretending to be single. It wasn’t to say I couldn’t have done that, but you need to be true to your passions.

•    After having children, a question that I was suddenly confronted with was could I ever be a stay-at-home mum? My answer was ultimately, ‘no’. I love my children and my family more than anything in the world but it doesn’t fulfil me 100 per cent as a person. I couldn’t give my family up but I couldn’t give my job up either. I need them both. Sometimes I still feel guilty about this, but it’s the truth.

•    A few years ago I was offered an editorship in America. It would have been an awesome job. My son was about five years old at the time and I spoke to my husband about it and he was very supportive. It would have been the most amazing thing for my career, but I realised I didn’t want to go. I didn’t want to live in New York. I mean, it would have put me on an international level and in a wonderful place in my career, but to me the sacrifices to my family and lifestyle were not worth it. I don’t regret it for a second. My family is ultimately way more important and I would never want to sacrifice having time with them and watching them grow up in Australia."

Were there any times that you wanted to give up? What got you through?

"There have been a number of times when I have thought, ‘What do I want to do next?’ and ‘Do I really want to be doing this?’ You just have to wait to see if the feeling goes away. Sometimes it does, and you realise you’re just having a bad week. I always just sit with it and try not to panic. If the feeling doesn’t go away, you think, ‘Maybe I need to reassess’. Someone once gave me a great piece of advice for making decisions and this was when I was first deciding on whether to take the job at Cosmo. I had just left Cleo and had gone freelance. This person said, ‘If you’re torn between ending a relationship or moving house or taking a job offer, imagine that you are definitely doing it. For example, you’re taking the job. Think about it for a day and see how you feel. Then the next day, think that you’re definitely not going to take it. Then you work out what you feel. Are you excited? Are you disappointed?’ It’s a really great way to cut to the heart of it and see what you really want to do. I have used this a number of times when I have been at crossroads in my life."

Is there a significant quote or saying which you live your life by?

‘Be yourself, everyone else is taken.’

‘No-one can make you feel inferior without your permission.’

What do you think are the major issues facing young women today?

I think it’s balance. You can have children and still have a career but at what level and what cost? The key is finding the balance which means flexible work practices, and quality affordable childcare. With Generation Y entering the workforce this balance is perhaps more achievable. This generation is not interested in having it all, they just want balance in their life. Generation X nearly killed themselves trying to have it all and a lot of them were very unhappy or disappointed at the end of it. There needs to be a balance, whether it’s travelling, working or having kids.

Did being a high-powered businessperson affect your relationship at home?

My husband and I were already together before I became an editor. Fortunately for me he has never been threatened by my career. We’re each other’s biggest support and greatest cheerleaders. He runs his own successful company, and so my success is the family’s success, and his success is the family’s success too. I guess the only challenge I have had to deal with was coming home after a frustrating day at work and changing gears mentally. It’s not just about bringing home the emails, it’s also about bringing home the attitude. When you are trying to achieve things at work, you do get tough with people and it’s important to take a moment in the car on your way home to try to leave all of that behind you. It’s the same when you go to work. Leave your family issues at home, put on your suit mentally and get to work.

What has been the greatest moment in your life so far and why?

Without a doubt, it is meeting my husband and giving birth to my children. I have kicked a few career goals that I'd set myself but none ever came close to those moments and nothing ever will. Those three moments are seared into my heart and my mind as if they happened this morning.