Do women really use university as an excuse to avoid starting a family?
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Even if Kevin Rudd was making a joke when he said this to a group of 20-something women at a function recently (and he may well have been), it raises a few interesting points about what we value as a society when it comes to what women do. Or don’t do.
In a fiesty opinion piece published on The National Times website, Nina Funnell, a PHd student and researcher in the journalism and media faculty at the University of NSW rails against the baby guilt she feels is projected onto women with ‘empty wombs’.
She writes…
Arguments were made about superannuation and the strain on healthcare. But there was a deeper message: young people (women in particular) are failing in their civic duty to reproduce. Apparently, gen Y is to blame for the inverted population pyramid.
There were hundreds of people in the room but only a handful under 30. As one of the under 30-crowd, I shuffled nervously, hoping no one would recognise me – and my empty womb – as the deeply unpatriotic and traitorous felons that we are.
After Rudd came off stage, he spoke to me and the few other under-30s (we had congregated for strength in numbers)….one of my friends introduced me, dropping in that I am completing a PhD. At this, Rudd rolled his eyes and in a terse voice lacking any sense of irony remarked that is the “excuse” that “all” young women are using nowadays to avoid starting families. Since then I’ve come up with numerous one-line retorts, but in the moment I just froze in shock.
But there are some serious points that should be raised in response.
For starters, even if we ignore the fact few people go on to complete PhDs (and of those who do, the majority are men), Rudd’s argument that all too many women are using their further education or their careers as an ”excuse” to avoid having children is wildly problematic.
Why do we assume it is the obligation of all women to reproduce? And why do we label them as selfish when they don’t? We never label career-driven men as selfish.
Women should be seen as more than mere baby incubators who procreate for the benefit of the nation. Despite what some might think, women can contribute in a variety of ways which do not involve their uteruses. Just ask Julia Gillard.
While at this point I have no children, I believe that – given the right support – women can and do balance having children while pursuing their own education or careers. And if anything, this balance is to be encouraged. After all, studies show that children benefit from having one or more tertiary-educated parents and it is also beneficial for all parents to have an identity outside of being a caregiver.
That is not to say that stay-at-home mums or dads are doing anything wrong by their children. But parents – and mothers in particular – should not be repudiated for also desiring a life outside the family home.
Similarly women who do not wish to have children should also not be punished or labelled non-maternal. As a young woman I find it frustrating to see women like Gillard constantly attacked and ascribed derogatory labels like ”empty fruit bowl”, as though her worth is a sole function of her ability and inclination to reproduce.
Women should not be treated as baby factories. It’s high time politicians realised that young women’s uteruses are not public property and that the government has no right to make a claim to them.
Memo to politicians: it’s never a good idea to sprout opinions about female body parts, particularly hymens and uteruses. Tony Abbott learnt that recently (more about him this week), it seems now it’s Kevin’s turn.
Does this argument resonate with you? If you don’t have kids (either by choice or circumstance) do you somehow feel judged? By whom?
Surely we’ve moved past the idea of judging a woman’s value by what she does with her womb?
Or HAVE we?
UPDATE: A spokesman for the Prime Minister contacted me this afternoon wishing to make the following statement:
The claims made about the Prime Minister’s views on these matters yesterday are not accurate and do not reflect his long held views.
The Rudd Government is doing more than any other Australian Government to support women being able to make decisions that are right for them.
We are introducing an 18 week paid parental leave scheme and have increased the child care rebate to 50%.
We’ve also reduced the HECS contributions for new maths and science students and are paying 50 per cent of the HECS repayments for graduates in this field.
The Rudd Government will continue to look at ways to support women in making the choices that are right for them.
As a young woman, I am all too aware of the problems and issues of teenage/young pregnancy, and am doing everything i can to avoid falling pregnant at a young age. i am also at university, but i didn’t use university as an excuse to avoid starting a family. believe me, my boyfriend is just as keen as i am to avoid even the word pregnancy. i wanted to get a degree so that i would be an educated person and to educate others, which many would agree is a worthy cause. would the government prefer us young women to go on to tertiary study, or to go on to reproduction? either way there is a huge problem.
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Alot of people cant get jobs educated or not, this is true, I have a university degree, I graduated last year and have now been unemployed for nearly 18 months, I am lucky to have a very supportive partner who works very hard to support us. We do not qualify for any government assistance and he only brings home $700 a week, with a mortgage this is a struggle. I have applied for every job under the sun from cleaner to jobs relating to my study, I approach companies for volunteer work to gain experience in my field but they dont want it. I graduated with honors, which I hope proves that I am employable, I worked three jobs to support myself through uni. I would love a career, Kevin Rudd has lashed out at Gen Y not willing to do any job, or for being lazy, I am not LAZY and will do anything. I can not get a job at coles or pizza hut because I am over educated, I was told through my whole schooling life that without univeristy basically I will not be able to get anywhere in life. So like a robot, I went through the motions, I did well at school, was stress out because apparently if “if you dont do well you can never get anywhere” I went to university and as mentioned before I did well. And now where am I, in a whole of of HECS debt, that I will paying off even after my partner and I have paid off our mortgage. My father was a brick layer with no secondary education and finished school at the age of 14, my mother finished in year 10 also, and worked as a recpetions until she had kids, she was born to be a mother. Which should stop the rumours of uneducated parents have uneducated children, all of my brothers and sisters have gone on to further education after completing year 12. my sister is in the same boat as me, but does not have a supportive partner and is struggling even more.
After this big rant and family history, I should get to the point which is, it has crossed my mind that even after my education, perhaps it would be easier for me to just have a child. I am very clucky and would love to have a family and I can not wait. But I should be given the opportunity to actually chose a career considering I did study. Kevin Rudd and society needs to deicde what they want, A hard working women that is willing to put in the hard yards, study, get a job and contribute to society and then have children or just have children. The message that is given to young women is so mixed, You have to go to uni, But after that you don’t deserve a job weather it be in the field study or other because you are lazy and won’t work hard or you are over educated. I hope that this situation changes for me and for other young women in my situation.
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Study and raising small children are not mutually exclusive commitments – it is just such a shame that when you are female and attempting to do both, support networks and opportunities are a bit thin on the ground. I am a 39 year old PhD student, with a 15month old child, and am currently 6 months pregnant. I am fortunate that my partner supports my studies (finacially and emotionally), and has encouraged me to continue my studies before and throughout our journey into parenthood. However, it shouldn’t be a matter of luck. I know many men who pursue their doctoral studies with young children, yet I am only aware of a few women who do the same. Socially, we still expect women to make difficult choices between having children, and maintaining their career/intellectual development. The prevaling view is that since I decided to become a parent – that’s akin to starting an extracurricular activity and living evidence that I’m not as dedicated to my research. Do any men out there face a similar reaction?
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I have always had a conspriracy theory that HECS/uni degrees are rather given to men than women as the government feels that most women will go on to reproduce and never pay the debt off. the g’ment should have no says when it comes to out uteruses
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When I read Nina’s article the first time, I was furious that Kevin Rudd was so dismissal of academic work. However, on subsequent readings, I think I can see another side to his comments. The word ‘excuse’ is unfortunate, and I don’t think it’s appropriate to describe the dilemma that young females face when studying research higher degrees.
As a 29-year old female in my 3rd year of a PhD, I can honestly say that it’s something that has plagued my mind for awhile. To the government’s credit, Australian Postgraduate Awards (the most common rhd scholarship) include maternity leave, so that if you do get pregnant in the middle of your candidacy, you get paid time off (although a minimal amount). However, it’s hard enough concentrating on a PhD when your sole distractions are the internet and the dog, let alone when you have a small infant to take care of. Hell, I’ve even put off dating til I finish – I just don’t have the time or the energy.
So yes, I do use study as a reason (not an ‘excuse’) why I’m putting off any consideration of having children. But even if I never have children, it won’t be a massive shame. Some people contribute to society by procreating, others though the advancement of human knowledge.
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I was 27 when I had my first child. A gorgeous son who was and is, edible. I used to walk past the pregnant ladies on the way to their OBs near where I worked and want a baby so badly. When I finally had “The tall one” as we call him, it was wonderful.
Yes, it put my career on hold. No, I did not get to go to uni like I had planned (had the option as a kid, wanted to go back later). Still, I never regret it. If only we all had magic powers to see how our life will turn out?!
Mine turned out well. I did a certIV and business diploma through my work, mostly in work time. I got better jobs from this. Had my second child. Kept getting promotions and new jobs. Now, I’m in a great job and am studying for my second career and doing a degree part time.
If being a stay at home mum is viable and makes you and your partner happy;
If working full time and taking breaks off to child rear makes you and your partner happy;
If not having kids at all makes you and your partner happy;
Go with your bliss. Forget about defining yourself by other people. Friends drift in and out of your life and will likely not be there when the race is run. Do what works for you. I spent too many years judging myself by others standards and it’s a waste of time.
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I love how the Prime Minister’s response says that the goverment is doing more to help support young women in making decisions that are right for them – such as maternity leave and increasing the child care rebate?? Did they not actually read the article?
Not something I myself would point out considering the gist of Nina’s piece was that not everyone wants to have children and we shouldn’t feel guilty about not having them in our early 20′s.
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Hmmm, after reading some of the comments on here Ive suddenly found myself in a rather, well perturbed. Probably not for the same reasons as alot of the other commenters but for another reason entirely.
Im a 23 year old, stay at home mother to two beautiful children. Having a family so young was never something my FH and I had planned, but given our financial situation we were open to having children, so when I fell pregnant in late 2006 with our first child we were thrilled.
I was able to take a full 12 months off work from my fulltime job to care for our daughter, without having to rely on the financial assistance of the Government *coughtaxpayercough*.
Understandablythere are some families who are in genuine NEED for assistance, job loss & what not, but what outrages me is the fact silly, irresponsible teenagers (and sadly some grown adults) can get their hands on hundreds of dollars in government handouts JUST because they “pop out” a baby or two.
FABULOUS! The rate of teen pregnancy is going up. Majority of the teenagers have NO idea what it is like to be financially independent & they are raising the future of Australia, who dare I say it WILL NOT go on to study at University because their parents/parents didn’t either.
Do we really want these type of people reproducing? Perhaps instead of handing out thousands to those who cannot afford to have children in the first place, the Government should be encouraging young adults to pursue University studies by giving them a little more financial assistance to get through those expensive years of University, rather than to the likes of irresponsible teenagers who think it is a novelty to have a baby. (For the record, Im not stereotyping all teen parents as irresponsible, but the ones who aren’t are few and far between.)
This all sounds a little hypocritical coming from a woman who fell pregnant at only 19 years old age, but the difference between my partner and I compared to the likes of other teen parents;
We were and still are paying our way. My partner works very very hard to provide for our young family. I have recently enrolled in University in the hopes of pursuing a career in Midwifery, I have plans for the future. I do not plan to sit on my arse and sponge off the government, sucking up money I don’t deserve, unlike some people I know who at 40 years of age decide to have another baby because their Family Tax Benefit will be taken away once their elder child hits age six.
Women or men to be more specific, do not use University as an excuse not to start a family. There are ALOT of people out there who are educated & responsible and who want to do something with their life besides reproduce at a ridiculously young age and not be able to afford it. Some people out there want the best of both worlds, but wait until they are in a more appropriate situation to do so.
I want to be educated, I want to contribute to society once my own children are of schooling age, but K-Rudd you are making it awfully hard & unappealing considering I can’t get a cent from yours truly, even just to pay for a $200 textbook I need to continue with my studies. Especially when my FH pays at least $900 tax per week. (Shiftworker in the mines, means time away from his family, long hours but decent pay.)
I know one thing for sure, I would much rather see smart, educated & responsible people who actually contribute positively to society having children so they can pass on their wisdom and raise the future rather than lazy, freeloaders who have no respect for money or where it comes from!
Wisen up K-Rudd, kick the dole, kick the ridiculous payments that encourage young adults/teenagers to have kids. If they know they are not going to get money from the Government chances are they might actually use a condom or the pill to avoid living on the streets or having to commit crimes to get by.
I could go on forever, I may have totally missed the point of your post Mia, but it is a vicious circle.
Excuse my outburst & my very opinionated comments, Im usually a little more tactful in the way I post my comments
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Absolutely!!!!! Can’t wait til the boy and I finish uni… Counting down- Two years!!! Haha!! Then it’ll be like those movies where you see people rolling in money- we’ll prolly be on typical mediocre starting salaries, but compared to what we’ve been living on, it’ll be like millions!!! Haha!! xoxo
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No you’re right about women being under represented in maths and science. Engineering too! I have a friend who was one of THREE girls starting Aerospace Engineering in 2006! One of three in comparison to the hundreds of males in the course!!
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And for those women who cannot have children, Mr. Rudd?
I am an educated, 31-yr old woman (in fact I am about to commence a PhD myself) who had spent her twenties happily checking off my to-do-before-I-procreate list. In no way did I feel guilty about my decisions, because, shocking as this may seem to various politicos, I was under the impression that this was MY life to lead. I am now of an age where I had been looking forward to starting a family, and combining that family with a career, only to discover that I am unable to have children. Not because I ‘waited too long’ by avoiding motherhood through remaining at university; I apparently have always been infertile. The heartbreak I then felt over what will never be means that I am rather opposed to any man opining on this issue – just as I would never think of telling men whether or when they should (or should not) have children.
So my response to Kevin Rudd is: while I may not be able to perform my civic duty as a mother, perhaps, just perhaps, I might be able to use my education to contribute to society in other ways. Some decisions are made for us.
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I meant no such thing- I meant that NO ONE CARES- babies or no babies, married or single educated or not. Most people are busy doing what they enjoy and pleased that educated women are holding there own out there. It isn´t an us and them. We are all women and want choices and opportunities and education if we chose. Who cares if they have babies or not. It isn´t an essential ambition of being a woman. I say go girls living a for filling life the way you choose.
I hadn´t read any comments when I wrote that post- so don´t feel targeted. I don´t think women owe Australia a baby．
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“I think the babyless women are self conscious not because people are judging them but because they judge them selves”
Amanda I don’t judge myself anymore than I judge you or my friends for having children.
So, do you believe I am only able to “get real” and have that light bulb moment that “no-one cares” after I have a child?
Maybe I’ve misread your comment or mood, but I’m not oversensitive at all. As I said in an earlier post, the only person I feel who’s ever judged me for NOT having had a child is another woman: a so called friend.
I’m not over sensitive at all….nor do I feel odd and I have never felt self conscious when I was with friends who were either pregnant or had a child. I think some people, who DO have children need to understand that not everyone wants or needs a child. Not everyone gets all clucky and maternal when they around babies.
Your comment indicated, to me at least, that you feel there is still something a little unusual about us so called barren women…that we’re secretly depressed or harboring desires for a baby…and everyhting will be OK once we’ve had that experience.
I’ve never believed I owe the country a baby…I’ve never believed there’s something a little unusual about the way my life’s turned out..as I said earlier, some women have kids, some don’t… sometimes it’s planned, sometimes it’s just the way things pan out
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NOT THE THE “B” WORD!! Haha.. don’t even get me STARTED on budgeting.. my god.. excel gets a major workout at our place, so I totally feel your pain on that one..
What I wouldn’t give to not account for each and every dollar on a daily basis. Would be HEAVEN!
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Do whatever you want – I had my children young, started at 22 and now at the ripe old age of 30 I have people asking me “When are you going back to work?’”
When I wanted babies at 20 I had people saying “Plenty of time for that, you need to have a life first”.
Excuse me but I thought I was having a life and a life with children can be very fulfilling (it is for me) But on the other hand I would like to be useful and well educated. I am raising my children now, but who knows what I will do in the future. I help my husband run our property and I do the books and I still have people asking me when will I get a “real” job.
If you want kids, do it. You wont be disappointed if you do what YOU want and not what society thinks. One day I may do distance ed or something but for now I am super busy with making sure my boys have their mum on tap at the moment. I havn’t travelled extensively, or done Uni. But I feel like there is always an internal and external battle for what I should be doing and how much time I have left to do it in. It is simple for blokes as they just have to find a well paying job to support their family and they don’t have the big pressures on them all the time from others judgements.
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Yeah it’s absolutely that giant juggling act!!
No idea how we do it either… Some days I’m like “how on Earth am I surviving!?!?”
It makes me even more surprised when I see people who earn a good $500-$1000 more a week than me, and they seem to be having money issues and it’s just like- “dude, if I can survive on what I’m living on, what has put you in so much shit!?”
I guess it comes down to making sacrifices and getting priorities in order. Oh and budgeting!! Haha!!
We’re fortunate that we’re renting from family, so the rent is at least a bit cheaper than it would be if we were renting from some random. Everything else though just comes out of managing the dough!! =P
xoxo
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I don’t agree that I’m oversensitive amandarose. I think this is a real issue. I don’t feel self conscious or odd, but I did feel judged when told I wasn’t a real woman.
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What happens if you have the opposite dilemma? I couldn’t help asking myself that when reading this article.
I’m newly married, 27 and find myself feeling very, very clucky. I should also add that I have two degrees behind me (one of them a law degree), have travelled extensively and have a foot in the door in the career I want to pursue. So by all accounts, I’ve done all the things that the author believes a woman should be entitled to pursue in favour of having a baby, if she so chooses.
The problem is, I feel that if I were to have a baby, I would be judged by my single, successful friends (some of whom also hold PhDs) for not doing more travelling, more work, more study…. basically more of anything not revolving around a child.
I would absolutely love to have a child and yet a part of me thinks, “Am I too young? Isn’t there more stuff I can tick off on my to-do list before I have a child? What will people say?”.
This is why I entirely agree with all posts relating to our obsession with judging one another, not that i myself am not guilty of judging people’s choices from time to time.
I really feel sorry for those women who choose not to have a baby and are then criticised for it, as though producing a child is their sole purpose on this earth. However, that story is heard time and time again. I would like to hear more from women who feel the pressure to fight their biological urge, as I’m certain I’m not the only one who feels like this. Then again, perhaps their absence from the child debate proves my very point.
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I reckon that’s a pretty wise response Lou …
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I reckon that’s a
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I mean this in the nicest, most polite way Amanda Rose – but do you not think that maybe, the reason women don’t feel so sensitive about this issue after they’ve had kids, is because they’re on ‘the other side’ and not in the group being targeted anymore?
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I’m actually a bit of a KRudd fan but am I the only one who doesn’t see anything in his office’s response to retort the views outlined about?
i.e., ‘We don’t think a woman’s value is solely in her ability to have children, so we support women in all other kids of ways, like with extra child care and maternity (parental) leave …” Um, am I missing the part where this benefits women without children?
And the HECS contributions, while no doubt being a good thing overall, do nothing to support women in particular – in fact, aren’t women particularly under-represented in the fields of maths and science? (happy to be corrected if I’m wrong on that …)
I just feel like saying to KRudd’s office: Really?? Is that all you’ve got to counter this argument?
Very disappointing …
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exactly!!
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Ani, I forgot to mention…I also think her attitude to me is her way of making herself feel better about her choices in life. To help her confirm to herself that she made the right choice. She had a chance to make it big in her chosen career and instead, she chose to get married and have kids…good on her I say. She’s done really well… she has a really nice family and a nice life, but I think she secretly wants me to be envious of her and I’m not, and I think that gets under her skin a little.
That’s my take on why she is like she is…
It’s just her.
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Ani, not really “friends” anymore, just the occasional catch up for coffee etc…and I never talk about kids with her….let’s face it, I just can’t compete with SuperMum. lol
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I know it’s not all uni graduates who expect a lot, and it is perfectly reasonable to expect a living wage, but I interview graduates. These days it is very competitive – if you want that job you’ll have to be the best. The best usually come with experience in the field because they worked in the industry while they were studying, and they usually come with contacts because they got involved at conferences and met people.
A uni degree isn’t enough anymore, and frankly i think uni’s should be encouraging that kind of experience and networking for their students. They are doing their students a disservice if they don’t.
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I think what Nina was trying to say is that, statistically, children who have tertiary educated parent are more likely to go onto tertiary study themselves, thus they are ‘more successful’ in her eyes.
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I clearly remember a situation when I was studying commerce at uni when I was 19. We were in a tutorial and we had to go around the group and say what we eventually wanted to do with our lives. Everyone was saying the typical stuff stockbroker, merchant banker, do post grad law and be a lawyer, do a dip ed and be a high school teacher,work for the UN, be an aid worker, save the world etc etc. I said I wanted to eventually be a mother and housewife. Everyone was horrified and couldnt understand why I wanted that.
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Dear god… why are you still friends with this woman???
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By no means am I asking for a handout Amanda, we are also happy to pay our way. It is not about requiring financial assistance. It is about creating a society that values the contributions women make both as mothers and in their careers. This means providing suitable childcare for children under 2 years of age and providing a paid maternity leave scheme that assists all. The baby bonus scheme introduced by the Howard was not intended as a welfare payment but as an incentive to increase the birthrate of this country. The Rudd government introduced a means test and turned this into a “welfare” payment.
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I know of quite a few women who have a second or third baby because they’d rather be “stuck at home with a baby than have to go back to work”. Surely that might even out the numbers!
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Mia, thanks for the update.
However, I would actually like to know the true context that his alleged remarks that Nina refers to happened in. When I read her article, I believe she formed her opinion about KRudd by ‘reading between the lines’ of his speech. However, many commenters have interpreted, from her article, that KRudd actually made comments directed at women. Do we actually know if this is true?
In addition to the update from KRudd’s team, a little clarity around what actually happened at the event might be handy.
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A really interesting book that I have just read on the subject of women and having or not having babies is, “What, no baby” by Leslie Cannold. She gets especially annoyed at the way women – esp educated women – are “blamed” for being childless, or simply not having enough children. She also looks at how bloody difficult it is for a woman to get an education, make a career for herself, get financially secure, meet the right guy, hope this “right guy” wants to have kids, and then actually get pregnant. Not to mention the actual business of raising kids and maintaining a career. I reckon it is essential reading for all women AND men!!
http://www.cannold.com/books/what-no-baby/
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Dig, dig, dig, dig
Hmmm – that would be the sound of the PM’s office trying to dig their boss out of one very large hole….!
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I think we have it great in Australia. I think we are over compensated for having children which is a choice at the end of the day. I while we have hospitals leaking, 18 month waiting lists, mental health care so poor it defies logic I as a working professional am happy to pay my way and my children. Its is about priorities of spending really. I wouldn´t like to ask for a hand out unless I´m struggling to feed my family.
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I think the babyless women are self conscious not because people are judging them but because they judge them selves.
You realise after having children NO ONE CARES. Like most people who get upset at these things it is a case of over sensitivity about certain issues.
I think childless women feel odd because they haven´t experienced something others enjoy and are doing. They are in a different head space. It made me feel self conscious to when I didn’t have children and all my friends did. I realise now they properly envied my freedom and open possibilities for my future.
No one thinks women owe the country a few babies each. Obviously Kevin was joking- Chill pills all round I say.
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“I think the babyless women are self conscious not because people are judging them but because they judge them selves.”
What a spurious argument. Why would childfree women be judging themselves? You are so off the mark it isnt’ funny. If anything it is that we ARE judged by society (just as in the orginal article) because we CHOOSE not to have children. Because that is supposed to be our calling as women. You are looked down upon and usually cop it at work – eg those with kids get the better holidays whilst the childfree ones are expected to pick up the slack or work certain periods because those with kids get first preference. I could go on. But you are so off the mark.
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I hate him too. He is snotty, smug and fake. And all about gestures rather than action. Such a shame as I adore Julia Gillard, but I could never bring myself to vote for Kevin Rudd.
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Kevin Rudd regularly refers to the struggle of the working family. As part of a working family this is my situation.
I was raised by working class parents. My Dad has a year 10 level education and mum went to year 12. We went to state schools and then on to university. I worked two jobs throughout university to get by as mum and dad had no money to pay for books etc. After university I got a job bought my first house at 20, met my husband & got married. We both studied further to obtain masters degrees so we could get well paid jobs. We get paid well. Not because we are lucky. Because we work dam hard. We are not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. Kevin Rudd has made several changes to means test the baby bonus & other family benefits which mean we are not entitled to assistance from the government. I am currently on 12 months leave from work after having my little boy. I did not have any entitlement to paid maternity leave, so even though my husband has a good job we are stuggling. I am about to go back to work and it has been difficult to find childcare of any sort in our area. If I choose not to return to work I will loose momentum on my career and risk being unemployable when I do choose to return to work. I currently feel as though I am living in a society which does not value the contributions of professional women. Kevin Rudds comments do not suprise me. His actions speak for themselves.
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I’ll have babies for Australia when the governement can improve schools, fix roads, run hospitals properly and not waste my tax dollars in their big black hole of debt they have racked up. Don’t they realise that in order for people to raise children it takes a lot more funds than just the $5000.00 baby bonus. Obviously the people who want to make sure they are financially secure and educated are the ones we want producing children in the first place. Not the ones who have them for the plasma screen tv they will get once they have a kid for the government.
This really shits me Rudd, until you decide if we want more immigration or we want more babies born here, you can’t have it both ways. The world is too overpopulated anyway!
Stop the smarmy judgements on the people who voted you in and actually do something to ease the burdens of “Working families”. And stop blaming “Working singles” too. Arggh!
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Amen, sister
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So an uneducated mother raises dumb arses? Just wanted some clarification is all…
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Hahahahaha…..whatever aaaaa. I had baby bonus with one and none with the other.
And, yes, I decided to have a second child purely because of the baby bonus – NOT!
It doesn’t go very far let me tell you!
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Hahahahaha…..whatever aaaaa. I had baby bonus with one and none with the other. It doesn’t go very far let me tell you!
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Actually, Abbott was asked what advice he would give TO HIS DAUGHTERS relating to sex.
He answered as a FATHER not a POLITICIAN.
How easily the media can twist things…
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“The claims made about the Prime Minister’s views on these matters yesterday are not accurate …”
Isn’t this a denial of the claims you have made?
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Totally agree Candi – financial strain is MASSIVE when studying at uni. There’s no way me and my fiance would’ve been able to be at uni full-time and work only part-time if we weren’t both living with my parents. Especially come prac time, when we did full-time unpaid work experience for uni and could barely work. It was tough.
I was eligible for Centrelink assistance once I’d earned enough to be considered “independent” from my parents… but most of the time, I earned “too much” to receive anything. Such a mad juggle… Working enough to be able to live – but not earning “too much” so that the payment would be cut. It was just too hard – I ended up ditching Centrelink as working as much as I could. I resigned myself to the fact that I didn’t have enough study time to be getting High Distinctions for courses. It just wasn’t possible.
I’m amazed that the both of you can do it – studying full-time and living out of home – good on you guys and best of luck!! xx
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Me too…
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Having children may be an inherently selfish act but believe me, once they’ve arrived, you won’t have any time to be selfish after that.
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Holy crap, Quackie… I’m pretty sure you’ll find something else to accomplish, and hang your life on.
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Thanks for the update, Mia!
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Just a note to those who are suggesting that higher education leads to demanding executive careers – the focus of the article seems to be on postgrad studies, particularly PhDs. By and large, people who get PhDs will have a career in academia, which by comparison is a flexible, 9-5 gig. Not all higher degrees mean people will be working excessive hours and sticking their kids with nannies and babysitters.
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I’ve met people with Masters degrees who work menial jobs stocking supermarket shelves, petrol stations, security guards, cleaners… Not everyone is lucky or has contacts to get a good job, with or without a degree.
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That’s a load of crap. Most uni leavers do start from the bottom but they can’t get the entry level jobs because
1) they lack the experience (yes you seem to need 3+ years experience for crappy $30K entry level jobs these days.. I’ve seen them all advertised) and
2) they are not under 21 so the employer would legally have to pay them more, and
3) if they have a degree it makes them over qualified for an entry level position. The employer assumes that they will get bored and move on to something better as soon as they find it.
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I think Jaz was meaning that to CARE for your children requires a lot of selfless behaviour and sacrifices… as opposed to actually HAVING the child.
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I’m liking Rudd less and less.
Perhaps we should all just let our fathers marry us off to whomever they want at the age of 16, stay home barefoot in the kitchen and pump out babies. Would that suit him better?
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The only person I’ve ever felt judged by for being “barren” is a girlfriend who seems to think I have somehow “missed out” and could not possibly know what it is like to be a mother because I have never had children!
During conversations with her I’ve often had the comment ” oh that’s because you’re not a mother” thrown at me.
I have step grandchildren and love them dearly, but that doesn’t count in her eyes. Because I have not personally bore a child I am somehow deficient. I get the long stories about her kids and am told how wonderful they are…she always throws in little details because she believes I am a sad person who envies her. Newsflash I don’t! Actually, she is a very competitive person and thinks (subconsciously) that this is somehow a contest about being a fulfilled woman. That’s my theory anyway.
Some women have kids. Some don’t. Some have a uni degree, some don’t.
I’ve never felt compelled to have a child. I’ve never felt compelled to put career ahead of family and not have one, it just didn’t happen.That’s all.
As for kevin Rudd and his alleged rolling of the eyes etc… well, if he did behave that way I’m extremely disappointed…not as disappointed though as I am with Tony Abbott, who is happy to give his daughters advice on their pre-marriage sex lives, but was more than happy to engage in pre-marital sex when he was a young whipper snapper.
What’s the saying Tony? Fathers are always trying to stop boys doing to their daughters what they themselves were doing to their mothers all those years ago?
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Actually, a lot of people can’t get a job because they are too fussy – they have this attitude that because they spent an extra 3 years study they deserve something beyond an entry level position. If you are entering the professional work force for the first time you have to start at the bottom – whether you’ve got a phd or just out of school – it’s just if you’ve got a degree the position should be degree relevant. You might be working in a lab or a school – you can’t expect to be the boss of the lab because you’ve got more qualifications or head a department at a school. At least not as your first job.
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Nice. Anon I really don’t think we (all the non-mothers) should get over ourselves- thanks. In this discussion its about the fact that he is the prime minister the leader of our country and he should not have said what he did- regardless of the context. Andf Women have the right to peeved about it. Perhaps he should get over himself? Are u a mother?
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Hi Nina, Thanks for not just sweeping what MR Marvelous said under the carpet… he gets away with too much and yes he should have known better.
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Exactly C- we don’t exactly go right “i don’t want a baby right now.. what can i do??… hmmm i’ll go to uni”.
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and youre one of those women who will get to 42 and decide she must have a baby….
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for it to be humour, dry or not, it would have to be funny. It wasn’t funny it was just rude.
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Exactly! I was appalled when I read your piece in the SMH. Good on you for getting it out there (from a former UNSW PhD student to another!)
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I know that I probably shouldn’t say this, mainly because it’s rude, abrasive, disrespectful, offensive (yes, against all the comment rules!), but I HATE Kevin Rudd. I actually hate him. I hate his snotty, smug, superior attitude and his continuously unmasked hypocrisy. He hides behind his condescending rhetoric and he is an insincere, self-important, awful man. I hate him.
That said, I could barely bring myself to vote for Tony Abbott either. I’d love to see Julia Gillard and Julie Bishop run against each other at the next election. Two intelligent women with vastly different worldviews (yes, an actual choice for us to make) who (gasp!) have not utilised their uteruses for the good of the country.
Hate him.
Anyway – I am a 20-year-old uni student and I will be delaying my baby-making until I have finished my degree and subsequently worked for a long enough period to afford marriage, a home and savings to live on while I stay home with my child. Or would Kevin rather that I rely upon Centrelink payments? Perhaps he would prefer that I not get an education at all, so I can start having birth as soon as possible? Maybe I should have a baby as soon as I commence full-time employment then go back to work immediately after giving birth so I can afford to feed and house my child?
Really, can we do anything right?
(Related to Mia’s other recent post: I am outraged.)
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There are plenty of able young women and men who are just desperate to come to this country and work and live and contribute to our society if the government is worried about the birth rate or the inverted population pyramid. And with something like over 30 000 children in this country in state care (and a lot more who could use a lot of help), I think having babies should be left only to those who desperately want them and will completely value the experience.
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To answer your question Mia- Yes, women do use university as an excuse to avoid starting a family.
Well it’s true in my case anyway. I’m 22, have just completed my undergraduate double degree, and am starting my postgraduate double degree next week! I live with my partner, he is 26, and a uni student also.
We have plans to do the whole marriage, children thing- but those plans are all on hold until we’re both out of uni and settled into jobs. If everything goes to plan- I suspect I’ll be around 28-34 when I have my first child!
Why? We simply cannot afford it!!! Centrelink provides us with approximately $400.00 each per fortnight to live on, and then we are able to earn up to $236 from a part time or casual job before that $400.00 is reduced. So basically the maximum amount of money we’re allowed to live on in a fortnight is $636.00 each. We could earn more and not get Centrelink benefits, but when the hell would we study!?!? Automatically $200.00 is gone to rent each fortnight, then there’s groceries, utilities, etc. etc. and we’re left with bugger all for savings!! Willingly reproducing a child at this stage would be irresponsible for our circumstances.
I think it’s interesting that uni students seem to be starting families later- in my opinion it’s the finance factor that makes it so in a lot of cases. I have many friends who went straight into jobs after high school and also many who went to uni.
Of the ones who went straight into jobs- several have bought their own homes, some are married with children, most are at the very least living with a partner in a de facto relationship all are much more independent and financially they are not relying on others.
The ones who went to uni- generally speaking are the ones still living at home, or living in a sharehouse, most are still single or living separately from their boyfriends/girlfriends, all struggle financially at times. My partner and I are one of the rare couples in our group of friends who actually live together in a de facto relationship.
People who start work straight out of school seem to start their “lives” sooner because they have the finances to do so. Uni students put their “lives” on hold until the time is financially okay.
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Is this all a bit schoolyard and getting cranky just because you can? You aren’t selfish if you choose not to have a baby. You all know it, so why still cry about it when someone says stupidly says it? As your mother would says “just ignore it and get on with it”. Oh, and by the way? If you want to be in the same position one day and support your own children? YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BABY. You! The w-o-m-a-n because you have a u-t-e-r-u-s. I think if we, as women, really want to be taken seriously, then we should stop talking and just do.
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:S Rainbow, now I’m embarrassed. Feel like I was bragging…I wasn’t!
Now is when I’m taking a break from studies to do more of the volunteering stuff. That’s how I guess?
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I didn’t get to read all the comments, but from my brief scan of this post, all i can say and think is what what what what what what WHAT?! An “excuse” to avoid a family?
Here’s a thought, women use university for the same reason men do! To be challenged, to learn, to consolidate a career, to become an expert in a field, to satisfy a thirst for knowledge, to investigate an area of interest, to be qualified to pursue some of the opportunities generations before us have not been granted..
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The reason why people with degrees can’t get a job is because they were all taken by people straight out of high school who started with no skills and the award wage and worked their way up. That’s how it is in Australia. Nobody gets rewarded for years of hard work studying. Nobody gives a crap. It’s something I HATE about this country. Just give the job to the 18 year old because you can pay them less rather than the 23 yo with more knowledge and skills.
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I have had the child discussion vs beginning my postgrad degree, something I have always wanted to do. He really wants kids, more than two. I don’t want more than two as I don’t want to add to the problem known as 6 billion people. He said it is out duty to have children because we are both educated and intelligent people, therefore it is out responsibility to spread our marvelous genes. However it is my womb it when I have kids it will be known as Dr. Womb because I want to further my education and career. At the same time there will be children before I am 36 because I would quite like my children to be free of defects as well.
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Hmmm maybe but when i was a university i was 17 in first year so i don’t think i fall into this category, however i read the other day that my profession has the highest number or single and divorced of any others. The thing that bothers me the most about this discussion is that ok yes in 36 and i am single and realising that i have probably missed the boat but i didn’t do it on purpose. I wanted all of my relationships to work out but i was dumped again and again until i got too cynical and now well i’m too old. BUT i take exception to articles like this sunday’s paper telling me i have been selfish and fussy, that if i want kids i should accept mr near enough and get on with it. Well you know what i would if i could even meet a nice guy i don’t have a list as such i do want some one intelligent and interesting but thats it. So for the last time leave it out a,d let people do what they need to and enough trying to force women back to the kitchen and out of the world!!!!
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I read that article too. It was a complete joke.
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Yes and women use the baby bonus as a reason FOR starting a family. NEXT!
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Having children is selfless? They never asked to be born! Having children is inherently a selfish act.
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The government is just worried because there won’t be enough taxpayers to fund the pensions of the baby boomers.. boo hoo. They couldn’t give a crap about producing more babies. The world has enough people as it is, and so does Sydney.
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This is the author of the piece in question. I just read Rudd”s response. Interesting. He hasn’t denied in any way ANY of the claims I made about what he said. All he has done is go into damage control. He hasn’t in any
way shape or form actually said that he didn’t say it or that (as has been alleged all over the net) I must have misinterpreted or fabricated his statements.
I suspect Rudd is not a misogynist at all and in fact I know he has done a lot for White Ribbon. But that was not the point. He made a terrible and insulting gaffe and he should have known better.
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Australia has never valued higher education compared to almost every other country.
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apart from policiticians being morons, there is some validity to the point…
ummm, hello, who else is going to bare children?? being the wonderous creatures that we are, women are the only ones who can do the baby making. we are all too busy getting phd’s building our careers etc, then bitch and moan when we suddenly hit 30+ and are unable to because we’ve left it too late… this argument is as old as feminism itself!
women who get their knickers in a bunch because someone *shock horror* suggests that they should make babies…. OMG! women are MEANT to have babies. yes, it is your choice if you do or do not want them, and indeed when you have them but get OVER yourselves about getting all indignant about it. its what women were meant to do. if they werent, the men would have been given a uterus!!
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While Nina comments that children benefit from having one or more tertiary educated parents and its a benefit for parents to have an identity outside being a carer its not that simple. I have read about several female executives and professionals who have left their careers behind when they realise that their childrens education is suffering from their absence. They are smart and educated. But their children are largely alone after school or in the care of babysitters who while lovely dont have the same level of education as the mothers. And the kids were spending most of their time with the babysitters not their mother which has impacted on their school results. In all cases I read about all children had turned their high school results around within the year of their mothers being home to supervise and help them with their studies.
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and frustrated also assumes that mothers must be married.. love it, just love it! did you tell brangelina that?
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OH MY GOD…i think we were thinking of the same article!
except i read it in ‘S’ with tara moss? i didnt want to say it before though because it’s Mia’s Sun Herald paper
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geez labelle how do you fit in reading mama mia???
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I wish he would keep his own “gift” out of budgie-smugglers and into boardies!
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Where are the mothers who actually think they own the area they are in? Inside their own driveways?
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OMFG …
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wow frustrated… u definately put it out there….. yes you can have an opinion but your manner in expressing it is a bit offensive… and lets all remember we only know one side of this debate. Either your a mother or your not- we don’t know what its like to walk in the other pesons shoes.
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i think they are threatened by the power that women have gained… its their natural instinct to be the provider… (well back in the caveman days)…
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abbotts comment was taken out of context by the media… however i think australia has more pressing issues than sex… so they should be fixing that and quit the crap.
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whatever it is, people need to learn from history, and for that , it must be taught in school. a ”feminism” class. am i dreaming?
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To be honest our politicians are retards- besides the fact that our pm talks to us (australians in general) like we are lesser, uneducated people in his little sing song voice, i find it hilarious that they pass judgement when they do not have wombs. And a government spokesperson saying those comments were not accurate… well hmm… the comment that the rudd government is “doing more” than any other government is not relevant to what “is said”… and 2 sentences does not really convince us that they are doing more… I’m Gen Y, university educated, without children so yeah i do think that they are judgemental and the govt is very family focused in everything they do and say. I don’t give two hoots though- as i said RETARDS…. until they are women i’m not listening to anything they say in this area… its almost like a male doctor saying “its just period pain”…
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I didn’t go to Uni, but have worked since I left school.
On the other hand, my husband has done two degrees and we are waiting for him to establish himself in his new career before we have kids.
See, now the tables are turned – I wonder what the lovely K.Rudd would think of that?
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Get a grip girly! Look out or some mad mother might take you out with her pram next time!!!!
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Ok so I wish I could have written that reply without the sarcasm…probably would be more effective. Oops. But the point still stands.
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Oh yes Jaz you must be so selfless. I’m sure your reasons for having children were completely selfless. For the good of the nation?
Me on the other hand. I surely must be selfish and self indulgent. You know, doing research to develop a better understanding of deafness, a medical degree, volunteering with disadvantaged children in Aus and AIDS orphans in Africa. All this required NO work at all….if only I had been less lazy and become a mother.
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Yep, I had my first at 26 and never thought that was very young, until I rocked up to my mothers group. out of 13 of us, I was the only one in my 20′s, there were five women in their 40′s (with the rest being in the mid to late 30′s group). I put immediate pressure on myself to prove to them that I was capable of being a mum, and also having a life – i was so scared of being judged. I look back now and wish I could have given myself a break, but at the time I felt stuck between people my age who were still out nightclubbing every weekend, and those older mothers that came across as having so much more life experience than me. I think as mothers we can always find something to stress about!
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“young people (women in particular) are failing in their civic duty to reproduce. Apparently, gen Y is to blame for the inverted population pyramid.”
I think its kind of ironic that with substantial focus on climate change and pollution and many experts suggesting ‘population increase’ as a cause that this would even be a problem, besides the fact we can’t support the pensioners.
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I went to uni straight from school as it was the “right” thing to do, and felt an enormous amount of peer pressure to choose what degree I wanted to do and get it done straight away. Needless to say, I lasted five weeks before i accepted that I was not ready for university. I wanted a full time job, and i wanted to have fun. For the next ten years I dabbled in all sorts of jobs/industries from childcare, to banking to media before finding what I loved and wanted to do as a career – HR. I managed to work in the HR field for six years across several different industries before deciding I wanted to go back to uni and complete a HR degree. I didn’t want to juggle uni with a fulltime job so i acutally made the devcision to hold off on my uni studies until I was on mat leave.
Fastforward to three years later I am under 30, I am 1/4 way through my degree and am bringing up two lovely children while currently on leave from work to do so. so I guess I don’t fit K Rudds mould – I actually waited until I was on leave from work to focus on my degree and by doing so, am completing my study in a field that i have experience in and know that it is an area I deifintly want to remain in for the foreseeable future. I am also getting HD’s across the board and I think largely due to waiting until the right time, which for me was after a bit of work & family experience.
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I respect what you are saying, but it is part of his religion that one saves sex for marriage, whether or not his children choose to follow this is their decision, but you can’t blame the man for wanting to instill these values in his daughters. Sex is normal and healthy, but for him, he would like to see his daughters wait and there is nothing wrong with that. Just because sex before marriage doesn’t bother you doesn’t mean that everyone should think the same way you do, just as Abbott isn’t saying that everyone should leave sex for marriage!
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Let’s make a list of how the Government could support women and childbirth, child-rearing.
A few things in my ideal world:
52 weeks paid parenting for either parent
Lactation centres for breast-feeding those first few weeks which are so tough for some with *proper* lactation consultants
Fully-funded homebirth like other choices are fully funded
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I like the update and feel slightly chuffed that you received one.
Still not adequate however.
I hope they bookmark your blog and keep tuned in for angry outbursts to keep them on their toes… Hahahaha
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Well if Kevin Rudd so wanted us to reproduce and is ‘looking at ways to support women in the choices they make’, then maybe he should re-instate all OBGYN costs to be covered under medicare as per the previous government that he removed.
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I’m not so sure that it is ‘predominantly’ a woman’s decision. In many of the couples I know, she’s ready for kids, and he’s not ready to give up the DINK lifestyle. I know many women who have waited several years for their partners to be ready. Where is this discussed in the media??
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I can’t believe that I have a uterus and OTHER people would be trying to decide what I should do with it. Ridiculous! Surely as females, in THIS day and age can do what they want, when they want.. with THEIR bodies!
I gotta say though, I can’t imagine KRudd would roll his eyes or express such juvenile behaviour.. Would he?
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girly i think you my have missed guest’s comment she was talking about TOLERANCE
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How many men of uni age earn enough to support 3 people? Not many I know…
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In all fairness, didn’t Abbott just say that virginity is a gift and not to give it away freely? I think he was just advising, not dictating.. Kevin’s statement was much more narrow-minded and naive.
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Maybe if mothers in general would stop ramming their prams into others ankles, and thinking they own the area they are in just because they have these gigantic prams with a tiny baby inside they wouldn’t be such a nuisance.
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It’s also worth keeping in mind that women are often the breadwinner, or at least higher income earners than in our parents generation. When my Mum had us, she was working, but in a menial job earning far less than my Dad. When she had to give up work, they lost about 1/4 of their combined income.
I’m 28, and in my circle of friends, many women earn more than their partners, some much, much more. So for her to take maternity leave, they are sometimes giving up 75% of their combined income. Until men can breastfeed, women have to take the majority of the first year off.
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It’s your hubby’s job to support you while at uni. If your single you shouldn’t be having babies.
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This sort of stupid comment just makes me CROSS…what the hell is wrong with a woman wanting to broaden her horizons and get an education? Politicians don’t get to dictate what I do with MY uterus! I admire the effort and sacrifice women put into raising children, but it’s not for me. I’m lucky in this day and age that I get to make that choice… but why should women like me be villified for it? Also, why should it even be a choice between one or the other? What was the point of feminism if we’re still stuck with such archaic attitudes?
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We are a selfish society becoming ever more so at a rapid rate of knots. Having children requires unselfishness, self-sacrifice and an incredible amount of work. Is it any wonder that in comparison, a PhD becomes incredibly attractive..
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seriously you are damned if you do, and damnedif you don’t.
Choose to have no children and you aren’t doing your bit for society, but have kids and you face a constant barrage of abuse from social commentators about how kids are bad for thr environment (due to overcrowding the earth), awful for general public on flights, and the fact they require prams when in public places….
maybe it would be nice if we were all just a little more tolerant of each other.
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Why should women have any less right to attend university than men? I think this was an incredibly stupid statement for Rudd to make and I wonder how Julia Gillard would feel about him saying this?
The sex lives and reproductive choices of the population are not Rudd and Abbott’s business. You don’t hear females in the public eye going around telling males when they should and shouldn’t have sex and kids, so what makes Rudd and Abbott think they have the right to either?
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Why should women have any less right to attend university than men? If women don’t want to have children, they should be able to make that decision on their own, without the need to ‘make excuses’. If you don’t want to have children, you should keep on doing whatever you were doing before than going to university just to kill time. I think this was an incredibly stupid statement for Rudd to make and I wonder how Julia Gillard would feel about him saying this?
The sex lives and reproductive choices of the population are not Rudd and Abbott’s business. You don’t hear females in the public eye going around telling males when they should and shouldn’t have sex and kids, so what makes Rudd and Abbott think they have the right to either?
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It’s so sad isn’t it? The number of times I’ve heard women say “I’m not a feminist, but…”
When did feminism get re-defined as ‘man hater’? Or is it that people think that being equal means being exactly the same?
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‘I would have thought that it would be easier for a woman to have kids while studying at university than while working’
umm ‘Kell’ already said it, but ‘frustrated’ it is SOOO not ‘easy’ to balance studying and babies. For starters most students scrape by working part time and casual jobs so unless there is someone to support them???
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‘I would have thought that it would be easier for a woman to have kids while studying at university than while working’
umm ‘Kell’ already said it, but ‘frustrated’ it is SOOO not ‘easy’ to balance studying and babies. For starters most students scrape by working part time and casual jobs so unless there is someone to support them???
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I think Jo has a valid point that doesn’t necessarily degrade people’s right to raise children (although it does place people in the category of economic units needing limited global resources).
However the two opinions can co-exist. I will be anonymous on this post because I want to share a personal story that involves both perspectives.
My sister is in a relationship and has had the opportunity to create a ‘family’ with her partner but has decided against doing so. The decision was not based on financial incentives or on a dislike of babies but on the belief that she would not want her child to have to go through the experiences that she has had to go through. These involve mental illness, disease and political principles about the limited resources available and the unfairness of the priviliged lives we lead on a global scale. Also her and her partner are happy with the family that they already are (2 people family).
I absolutely adore babies and children and intend to have them with my partner in the next few years but my sister and I have talked about it in depth and decided that both of us have valid approaches to being women in our thirties. Neither opinion is ‘wrong’ as women are entitled to invest in their minds and their bodies and come to decisions about child birth based on principle or love of children or whatever they like. Because having children is a choice, not the ultimate choice but just one of many.
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Can i just put something out there. It seems as though as a society we’ve gone backwards in time. It’s as though women gained equality and then recently kind of lost it. For example, i’m 17 and in school we’re studying a feminist text (Virginia Woolf). Now i consider myself a feminist, wanting equality, education etc. But i kid you not, i was one of two people in the class (of about 20 girls) who said they were a feminist. I just don’t understand why women would not want equality??? But with all these politicians around saying that women should have babies, remain virgins etc, it’s not hard to see why feminism has taken a step backwards. I thought as a society we had moved on from judging on purely their childbearing?? I am so confused!!
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My friend’s *mother* told her she’d never be a real woman if she didn’t have kids.
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Thanks.
I was thinking of one article in particular from The Age, that stated women over 30 need to settle for “Mr Good Enough” rather than continuing to search for “Mr Right”, or they’d be left behind. I didn’t realise happiness had a time limit – *having children*, of course, does. Implication: a woman can’t be happy without children?
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Can I interest you in a Yurt in Mongolia, perhaps, Iris?
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Stranger things have happened, P23!
On Guest’s maternity leave scheme query (below), these things take time…as someone who is on maternity leave from the department responsible for developing the policy for said scheme, I have a bit of an insight into just how complex the negotiations, consultations with industry and legal considerations can be in the development of such legislation. This is an important and essential step forward for Australia – I, for one, think it’s better to take time to get the framework right rather than rush forward with a half-baked system for the sake of the polls.
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Stranger things have happened, P23!
On Guest’s maternity leave scheme query, these things take time…as someone who is on maternity leave from the department responsible for developing the policy for said scheme, I have a bit of an insight into just how complex the negotiations, consultations with industry and legal considerations can be in the development of such legislation. This is an important and essential step forward for Australia – I, for one, think it’s better to take time to get the framework right rather than rush forward with a half-baked system for the sake of the polls.
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Very well said Sarah. Im too am sick of being told that women have only life path in Australia. Several newspaper columns that I read over the Valentines Day weekend particularly come to mind.
Thanks for this post Mia, it is bringing out some well written comments!
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oh. my. god. What is wrong with these people!!!
Why can’t we respect everyone’s right to make their OWN life choices.
I adore kids and women who have kids but I don’t want to be judged for my love of research projects and writing! Likewise I do not judge people with fewer degrees or less career ‘status’ than myself. (ha ha that is funny for me to say at the moment cos i am actually unemployed)
Let’s take a genuine interest in those around us and quit judging the superficial shit
xx
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I can conclusively say I’ve done so since leaving school.
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Whether Kevin was joking or serious when he said this, it was incredibly stupid and ill-judged and he should have known better.
I’m childless for a number of reasons: the right man wasn’t around when I was considering them in my mid-30s, now that he’s here I can’t afford them and am getting too old (I’m 42), I’m not interested in babies (if I could give birth to a 5 year old I probably would), due to anxiety and depression I doubt my ability to be an adequate mother, the world isn’t currently one I want to bring someone into, and it’s got way too many people in it already.
Not only am I sick of having to justify my reasons for not doing my civic duty, I’m sick of childless women being stereotyped as selfish, materialistic career women or academics. I’m none of the above: I hold two diplomas but have never been to university and left the finance industry a couple of years ago to obtain those diplomas and follow a lower-paid but more fulfilling career path.
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I was told recently when I told another friend I couldn’t see myself having children that:
‘…but what will be the point of your life?’
I kid you not.
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University is a whole lot easier than just….not having kids
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at least you have “real” manners, Weeze. What a cow!!!
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I agree with you ladies. There is more to this than Australian economics and putting our country in isolation of the rest of the world – which is clearly overpopulated.
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this is a tough one for me as i am a big Rudd fan. i think he probably made a bad joke, that was not intended to hurt.
i think we also need to remember, it is not only childless woman who get judged. woman who have kids early get judged…. probably worse than anyone, how many times have you heard people say young girls have babies to get the baby bonus??
i am a stay at home mum with three kids, an undergrad degree and a masters and i often get spoken to, and treated like i have NO brain.
i choose to stay home, i chose to do my masters while i was at home with kids, and i choose not to work while my kids are young. as far as i am concerned we all need to spend less time worrying about what others think. i am happy with my choices, i don’t really care if people don’t agree with them, as i believe i am doing the very best for my family, and therefore me.
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I guess this is a prime example of what can outrage some will barely cause a raised eyebrow in others (see Mia’s other post)
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Yes, women use university as an excuse not to start a family. Next!
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I wonder if KRudd’s daughter has been told she is failing in her civic duty? After all she is Gen Y and hasn’t had any kids yet. As for those of you who find it hard to believe he would be so rude to a stranger, are you kidding me???? The man who demanded a hairdryer in the Middle East, the man who tore strips off a young RAAF steward, the man who is arrogant and belittling in every interview he has??? If the questions get too tough he doesn’t answer them, he smiles for the cameras instead and thinks that is enough.
Funny how the main stream media have ignored this story isn’t it???
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How exactly is it easier for women to reproduce while at uni? Between the full time commitment of my studies and my part time job, its hard enough to find time to have sex, let alone raise a child.
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what a rediculous statement
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Jo my husband and I gave considered thought to having all of our three children – none of them were thoughtless accidents.
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we should educate the people of the planet before we go creating more brains to train.
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JO, my husband and I ave very considered thought to falling pregnant with nd having our three beautiful children. None of them were thoughless accidents.
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Caroline has a good point- often the choice of another (particularly third) child is a much about whether you can afford to have children. If you can only afford to have one, you have one.
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I didn’t say that you weren’t entitled to your opinion (which you described as a “rant”) , I asked how you expected people to react.
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that made me laugh Helen…
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my kids heard me joking that I’d had ‘one for me, one for my husband and one for Peter Costello’. Then they wanted to know who Peter Costello was and why isn’t he their daddy?
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Does this man actually know he is living in 2010??? I always find it intruiging how parents get so wrapped up in preserving their daughters virginity…..Educate them about sex and wish for them to have a healthy, enjoyable, aware sex life.
These comments always make me wonder what is going in the heads of such people and the hang ups and prudishness they harbor. Sex is normal, healthy and necessary….stop making it a shamefull act Tony.
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I think they are still trying to find an alternative that doesnt alienate voters. Paid maternity leave discriminates against new mothers who are not in the workforce. Why should a mum with a new baby who is already at home with a toddler miss out, while a high earning professional who plans to return to work quickly receive paid maternity leave and childcare benefits. It doesnt recognise that babies need more of their mothers than a few months of their time.
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Oh come on…you know what I mean. Women have kids without men quite often. I would also be quite sure is stating that it is women who also dictate when they want them and so forth…
We all know this is predominately a womens area of decision making.
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I can’t remember exactly what I said, but it was along the lines of that I couldn’t believe that she had just said such an incredibly rude and insensitive thing. I was a bit gob smacked to tell you the truth, as usually people aren’t so explicit in their judgements!
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Birds?? Grandad, step away from the keyboard please.
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Its never wasted. An educated mother raises smart children.
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This is a very timely discussion for me. I am 32 with an 18 month old daughter and another due in April. I am a second year PhD student, fortunately receiving a small stipend to assist with my studies. I am still reeling from a massive argument with my husband on Friday night where I asked for an hour or so of baby-free time on Saturday morning to complete some writing I hadn’t been able to complete during the week. Husband, who works at a university himself, responded with “what if I have something else planned” and that he was “sick of my PhD taking up so much time” and that the money I did bring in from the PhD “wasn’t worth much anyway” and that we didn’t need it (we DO need it).
Now, there’s a lot of issues that were raised by these comments that I won’t thrash out in this forum. What has hit home though is that, as many posters here have stated, it is bloody hard to win anything as a parent who choses to maintain a professional (I include training or study in this category) life during their children’s early years. After a weekend of questioning my own intentions for doing a PhD and whether I am compromising the well-being of my children by completing it at this point in my life I have come to the following somewhat awkward reconciliation: I am doing it because I love doing it. I am doing it because I believe that I do have something to contribute to my industry and country during and after this research/training phase. I want my daughters to be proud of me when they are old enough to understand and have to make choices themselves. And I want to be back in the workforce when my children are old enough for me to not to be their full-time carer. When those few years are up I don’t know what the employment market will be like but I do know that I’ll need to be better skilled than when I left it.
Do I wish I had done my PhD earlier? In a way yes, but that would have been undertaken at the financial and personal expense of a wonderful job and I would not be able to provide for my family as I am now. Did I compromise any ambition to have children? No, I was ready to be a parent. Am I glad to be juggling a PhD and children? Absolutely not, but I can’t see a viable alternative for me at the moment.
This is just my situation at the moment, I believe that respect should be given to all women for the choices they make – there is no right or wrong, just what’s right for you. And that is NOT an issue for government.
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I think your husband is a selfish jerk for not taking care of them for ONE HOUR! they’re his kids, too. good luck with all of it, i’m sure it will be worth it in the end, but its shitty with the lack of support from your husband.
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Housing prices have risen when expressed as a multiple of the average wage – i.e. by a lot more than wages. Monthly replayemnts (as a percentage a percentage of average monthly wage) have also risen, so if there are any long-suffering boomers aoput there who want to complain about intrest rates in the Eighties, you can save it.
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But wages have risen….
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I’d believe it. When talking to friends of mine about their pregnancy at a bbq, one other *charming* male guest said, “I don’t know what took you so long. You could do it lying down”. To which another (also male) guest replied, “Mate, you are the ultimate proof that just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” Thank goodness he had the presence of mind to respond – the rest of us couldn’t because of disbelief and/or rage.
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I’d believe it. When talking about their pregnancy at a dinner, one other *charming* male guest said, “I don’t know what took you so long. You could do it lying down”. To which another (also male) guest replied, “Mate, you are the ultimate proof that just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” Thank goodness he had the presence of mind to respond – the rest of us couldn’t because of disbelief and/or rage.
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Oh yes, the level of this woman’s condescension was something to behold!
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bahahahaha…love the oversensitivity by you chicks, so easy to rile up! Come one guys get over yourselves…if Mamamia has taught you birds anything is that EVERYONE is allowed to have their own opinions, even Kevin Rudd, and me!
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I have a PhD that I completed at the age of 33. I have no children. However, the two are unrelated; I have no children because the people I have had relationships with weren’t ready, and I’m only just reaching the point where I feel that I can cope with the idea of having children without a full-time co-parent. Maybe I’m now physically incapable: only time will tell at this point.
I do feel judged. By my family, who don’t understand what I do for a living, and who feel that having more family is the only other thing they can talk to me about). By outsiders, who tend to assume that I have “made a choice” to remain childless and dedicate myself to a career (and what was I supposed to do? Sit at home waiting for a handsome prince to sweep me away, or work on something fulfilling while putting time into an active social life to meet more interesting potential partners?) Not least, judged by probably well-meaning politicians and journalists (lets be generous here, shall we?) who feel it is their position to inform the world about what women think (because we all think the same way), and let us know what it is that we’re doing wrong to have so failed in our Prime Directive to reproduce.
There are good reasons to have children and not to have them. That said, I think there is a tendency to make assumptions about what others are thinking and why they made the choices they have (and even if they have). I think this is one place where the “oversensitive” label gets thrown around a lot. What if I were childless and over-educated because I was infertile? What if I *had* chosen not to have kids? Is that so very bad?
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What did you say back?
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*Gasps* She said WHAT?!
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There are as many “life paths” as there are people in this world. None better or worse, just different.
I have posted in this forum before of how I’m tired of having to justify or explain why/how I’m single and childless. This was never any conscious choice (although I never really saw myself as a mother), just the way my life has turned out (so far).
Oh, and believe me, people do say insensitive things. At a BBQ recently, a woman (who did not know me or my story) told me she felt sorry for me being childless, as I would never know what it was like to be a “real” woman.
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Kell – I’m EXACTLY the same – since I was really young I’ve always said I’d love to adopt. Once, my Mum’s reaction was ‘But they won’t be YOUR own children, which means they won’t really be our grandchildren’ … That really, really upset me
Hopefully both our families will get used to the idea the more we talk about it? 
Thanks so much MegsyJ! I do the exact same thing… I walk away totally FUMING. When really, if they’re rude enough to give their opinion without it being asked for… Well then, I guess I can give mine!
And that’s exactly it too – I respect people’s decisions, whether they choose to have children young, wait until they’re older, not have them at all… I just wish other people would have the same courtesy. xx
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So are you saying that this incident didn’t happen or that Nina Funnell is unable to recognise “dry humour” or to use a Sarah Palin-ism – “satire” when she sees it?
Perhaps this is a sign of the Prime Minister’s true view on the subject, which up until now has been well shielded.
I don’t see Kevin Rudd rushing to provide more support to parents in the form of paid maternity leave… I seem to recall there was some discussion of that at the last election.
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an angry ILL-INFORMED rant no less.
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And “stay-at-home mothers” makes them sound lazy. Prefer it that way hey Ani?
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I think that of all the people who would know whether Kevin Rudd was joking or not, would be Nina Funnell and not you or I, presuming of course that you weren’t standing next to her when this happened.
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Oversensitive!??!!
Frustrated, you have just posted an angry rant accusing childless people of letting down humanity. How would you expect people to react?
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Exactly. The cost of living was lower (cheaper- in real terms – groceries, petrol, uni fees, utilities, public transport, etc,etc) AND housing prices were lower. It is much harder to get by now even if you do ‘make sacrifices’.
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Oversensitivity!??!!
Frustrated, you have just had an angry rant directed at childless people about how we are letting down humanity. How would you expect people to react to comments like that?
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I am saddened that this is still such a big issue. Women should be able to make their choices without guilt or fear of judgement. Having babies is usually because you have a desire to be a parent. No matter whether you stay at home, study, work or whatever. For those who choose not to have babies, well good for you. And for those who choose to stay at home with your kids, good on you too.
I’m a stay at home Mum with 3 girls and I will support their choices no matter what. I will be concerned if they’re having babies for their country though.
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I find it quite interesting that Kevin Rudd said this, and there really has been no fuss raised about it. Can you imagine the overwhelming outrage if Tony Abbott said the same thing?
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An aging population means that not only do we need population growth (increased births – immigration) but that they need people in the workforce to pay taxes to support the older population. So the government has the tricky job of encouraging people to have children and at the same time encourage women back into work. So we have the baby bonus, childcare rebate & benefit & paid maternity leave (Starts Jan 2011) so they can get the birthrate up at the same time as increasing workforce participation. I do think that all these messages are causing alot of stress and confusion. Selfish gets thrown around alot for all sorts of different situations. Too young, too old, too many, not enough, none at all, bludging, going to work, not enough money,..and it all gets directed at women. It would be nice to see men being included in these choices. Especially since it is not always a black and white issue.
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Ever heard of dry humour, Nina Funnell?
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For those who have commented on how some people seem to overreact to this issue, let me try to explain. Obviously I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know that my frustration in this area centres on two areas – the view of children as potential taxpayers, rather than people; and the way that some seem to be insensitive to the potential reproductive problems that other people face.
I think that any government that sees children as embryo adults, worth what they can give the economy later on, rather than people in their own right, worth investing in both financially and socially, is a government that has lost sight of the big picture. As an early childhood professional, I see the strain that our current system places on the workers in child care, and how more funding NOW would be of huge benefit to today’s children. Dr Fraser Mustard has also outlined how this investment brings long term returns for the economy as a whole. Also, surely we should value children for who they are now, as individuals, not investments or future taxpayers or life achievements, shouldn’t we?
On a personal level, I am in my late thirties, and only got married a few years ago. I had serious relationships before that, but the blokes “weren’t ready” for anything more (Thank God Now, I think, for my husband is wonderful). I would have loved to have children before this, but it was not to be. My mother has been nagging me about it since I was 20. Her friends and my relatives started in pretty soon after that.
Now, I don’t know if it is still possible for me to have children. Really, I don’t. We have been trying, not in an organised way, but in a “Let’s throw out the contraceptives and see what happens” way. I do have some friends who have had problems conceiving – one couple tried for four years from their very early twenties before their little boy put in an appearance. Another couple decided to adopt from overseas (“Just call us Brangelina” is her motto). My openness about whether or not I will have children (“If it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t” is my motto), has lead to some amazing conversations with others about the insensitivity they encounter from those who should know better. Not everyone is as laid back about the issue as myself and my husband. There are some who desperately long for their own children, and can’t have them, for whatever reason (infertility, lack of partner, sexuality, etc.). And the issue is so raw that they don’t want to talk about it. Especially not to Great Aunt Mabel or Dora from Down The Road.
Others are convinced that they would not be good parents, can’t afford children or simply don’t like them. Admitting that you don’t want to spend time dealing with what can be a very demanding little individual is not a crime. It’s honest.
Those of us in one of those categories – infertile, unwilling or otherwise unable – face questions, statements, nagging, even teasing. Regularly. And yes – that can make some of us ready to blow up. Or – God’s Forbid! – come forth with our opinion and perspective. So whether Kevin said it or not, this is why you could be seeing the reactions you are. I’m sorry that some of you are sick of the oversensitivity.
But you know what? Some of us are well and truly sick of the insensitivity.
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For those who have commented on how some people seem to overreact to this issue, let me try to explain. Obviously I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know that my frustration in this area centres on two areas – the view of children as potential taxpayers, rather than people; and the way that others seem to be insensitive to the potential reproductive problems that other face.
I think that any government that sees children as embryo adults, worth what they can give the economy later on, rather than people in their own right, worth investing in both financially and socially, is a government that has lost sight of the big picture. As an early childhood professional, I see the strain that our current system places on the workers in child care, and how more funding NOW would be of huge benefit to today’s children. Dr Fraser Mustard has also outlined how this investment brings long term returns for the economy as a whole. Also, surely we should value children for who they are now, as individuals, not investments or future taxpayers or life achievements, shouldn’t we?
On a personal level, I am in my late thirties, and only got married a few years ago. I had serious relationships before that, but the blokes “weren’t ready” for anything more (Thank God Now, I think, for my husband is wonderful). I would have loved to have children before this, but it was not to be. My mother has been nagging me about it since I was 20. Her friends and my relatives started in pretty soon after that.
Now, I don’t know if it is still possible for me to have children. Really, I don’t. We have been trying, not in an organised way, but in a “Let’s throw out the contraceptives and see what happens” way. I do have some friends who have had problems conceiving – one couple tried for four years from their very early twenties before their little boy put in an appearance. Another couple decided to adopt from overseas (“Just call us Brangelina” is her motto). My openness about whether or not I will have children (“If it happens it happens, if it doesn’t it doesn’t” is my motto), has lead to some amazing conversations with others about the insensitivity they encounter from those who should know better. Not everyone is as laid back about the issue as myself and my husband. There are some who desperately long for their own children, and can’t have them, for whatever reason (infertility, lack of partner, sexuality, etc.). And the issue is so raw that they don’t want to talk about it. Especially not to Great Aunt Mabel or Dora from Down The Road.
Others are convinced that they would not be good parents, can’t afford children or simply don’t like them. Admitting that you don’t want to spend time dealing with what can be a very demanding little individual is not a crime. It’s honest.
Those of us in one of those categories – infertile, unwilling or otherwise unable – face questions, statements, nagging, even teasing. Regularly. And yes – that can make some of us ready to blow up. Or – God’s Forbid! – come forth with our opinion and perspective. So whether Kevin said it or not, this is why you could be seeing the reactions you are. I’m sorry that some of you are sick of the oversensitivity.
But you know what? Some of us are well and truly sick of the insensitivity.
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Um, last time I checked a woman wasn’t the only one who needed to be present when making a baby. So if men don’t want to have kids…that effects the population too!
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I’m very perplexed as to why you think the government needs to “get their shit together to enable people to have more kids”??
As I said above, the world’s population is growing at an alarming rate (predicted to rise from 6.9b now to 9.15b in 2050). Most sensible people are talking about moderate ways to control the population to prevent famine and war. What are your reasons for suggesting we need to up the reproduction rate?
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If Kevin wants babies then he has to support it is some way.
If I want babies I support myself the way I can/choose to.
Kevin can’t frown at low birth and NOT provide support.
Also, I emailed Kev with this blog link and slammed him. I know you are friends Mia so it was just to give him the info without me having to explain it all.
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It is NOBODY’s responsibility to reproduce. Who said that?? Darwin’s theory evolution has NOTHING to do with this debate. The human population is not at risk of extinction!
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So was the cost of living though.
No one had two cars, pay tv, internet, huge houses…”things” that aren’t necessities. “Things” that people aren’t willing to forego in order to have a child
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Unfortunately it is the women who made all the sacrifices.
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I was about to say something along the exact same lines.
I get so angry when I hear any insinuation that there is an obligation on the people of Australia to reproduce. There is NOT. The way to resolve the aging population is not to keep producing more and more people, who will in turn age.
I’m not advocating that the government legislate to prevent people having more than ‘x’ number of children, but for god’s sake, if the birth rate is declining, don’t fight it!!!
The world is heading for 9.15 billion by 2050 according to most estimates, and we don’t have enough food and water for the 6.9 billion we’ve currently got. If you don’t want children, don’t have them. If you only want one child, just have one child. Don’t listen to any nonsense that suggests otherwise – especially anyone who accuses you of selfishness. It’s your body, your decision, and an environmentally responsible decision at that.
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Yeah and then you become a mother and everyone x 11ty billion tells you what to do!
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Ha ha! And they say that Tony Abbott has the “women problem”!!!
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You’re forgetting about how housing prices were *much* lower.
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However did we survive just a few short years ago when there was no such thing as paid maternity/paternity leave..?
Oh that’s right – we made sacrifices.
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It’s important to note that from an environmental perspective the planet is overpopulated. I heard once that the biggest thing anyone can do to reduce environmental harm on the planet is to have no or few children. Now I’m not suggesting we all remove our ovaries, but there’s more to the population debate than economics.
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Having done a PhD, I know that it’s one of the most hypersensitive times in your life. You’re trying to put this new hypothesis out there, and it’s a very vulnerable position to be in. You do ask yourself whether it’s all worth it. You do wonder if you should be having babies or getting married like all your friends are. So maybe, just maybe the writer was a little bit over-reactive to a comment made by someone who should know better but who doesn’t understand. I bet Therese gave him a kick up the pants when he got home.
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I’m sorry but if you get beyond looking at Australia… on a global scale there are far too many humans already, we are running out of resources… Maybe its great if we women are hanging out at uni improving our minds rather than thoughtlessly reproducing.
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Could the Abbott PR machine be at work, Bugmum?
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I want to SLAP Kevin Rudd in the face one hundred times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FIRSTLY: PAY BLOODY BETTER MATERNITY/PATERNITY LEAVE YOU WANKER
SUPPORT FAMILIES TO DO THE JOB OF RAISING A CHILD AND PURSUE THEIR INTERESTS YOU MISOGYNIST P@#&K.
That’s all. thanks
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This isn’t an arguement about women. It is everyone’s responsibility to reproduce. Remember Darwin’s theory of evolution? Our reproductive levels are very low, and both men and women need to get their shit together and have more children…and by the same token the government needs to get their shit together to enable people to have more kids. Why on earth do we need 2 incomes to support a family nowdays? How are we possibiliy going to increase the birthrate when no-one can afford it?
As for K Rudd, I don’t know what he’s banging on about. I would have thought that it would be easier for a woman to have kids while studying at university than while working..flexibility of studies and all.
Anyway, that’s my rant. I’m a little sick of the over sensitivity of some regarding the child debate. We should be having more kids, that’s why we’re on earth. And yes we (both men and women in my view) should be having kids under the age of 35 – not only for reproductive heath, but kids love to run around with their parents.
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Whether this was said on purpose, or as an off-the-cuff, um, ‘joke’, it is both uncalled for and ridiculous.
This is the 21st Century, where we all have the hard-fought-for right to make life decisions that suit each of us.
Try being a true leader, K-Rudd, and lead by example: teach others not to judge and it’ll be a happier country.
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Did he seriously roll his eyes! This is the second instance I am aware of, of K-Rudd’s disdain for today’s youth. I was present at the community cabinet meeting where the young journalism student challenged him on asylum seekers. Not only did he come back at her with a ferocity he didnt apply to anyone else with similar questions, he didnt even answer her question. Anyway… that is a seperate concern.
I feel judged by some people with Children, that my life couldnt be anywhere near as stressful, complicated or tiring.
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and Therese is also on the record saying that it was very hard having both career and motherhood at times and that they always had outside help.
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Take a demography class Kevin – the pyramid started inverting with the baby boomers!
I’m delaying having kids because I want pursue a new career path (which has alwasy been my dream). I am also delaying because I have met alot of women who gave up on their dreams when they had children and when the kids grew up and left home they found it very difficult – they had no purpose etc etc. I don’t want to end up in that situation. Although I am concerned that my fertitlity won’t make that distance!
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I agree with those who doubt that many women use education as an excuse not to have kids. No more so than their career more broadly – it’s just another form of career progression, in my opinion.
I have a PhD which I completed in my 20s, and although I married halfway through I would NEVER have considered having children during those years. After finishing my PhD I worked for a couple of years and then had my first child at 29. My education in no way impacted on the timing of our family.
PS I’m also with those who can’t imagine KR being quite so rude and obtuse to a stranger at a public function.
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Very well said. Enough with judging each other; let’s just live and let live.
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I love this LMM. I was under a lot of pressure from friends, but my Mum used to say: ‘Nah, you’re too young, you have your career, you’re enjoying life.’ But that made me SO nervous telling her I was pregnant!
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I got the exact same thing YV. I used to be polite and laugh it off, but then scream and yell when I walked away. Silly me – I should have told them what I thought, which was: ‘How about you butt out and mind your own business? Maybe just let me enjoy my life and make decisions when *I* am ready? And just because *you* are happy with children doesn’t mean that’s the only way to be happy.’
I now have a little toddler and couldn’t be happier (most of the time!). But I had her when my husband and I were ready.
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I have 2 university degrees and I am a stay at home mum. I have seen other people try to do it and see them try now. By that I mean maintain their professional career after having children. And while it may be good some of the time and they enjoy the income the daily reality is quite different. They are always stressed. Their home life is often a shambles and to quote one she feels her kids are treated like ‘pass the parcel’. Its not just the work but also the reading and courses required to keep your qualifications current. This is often why women scale back and do jobs below their qualifications after having babies.
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Actually I find the opposite! I’m happy to stay at home with my children while I complete my degree and because I’m not working or placing my children in care to complete my degree full-time on campus, I get judged by those who do.
I was quite happy to put my career on hold to take care of my little ones until they’re in school, but I don’t begrudge anyone the right to care for themselves and their family as they see fit. At the moment i can’t earn enough to make working full-time worthwhile, but once all my children are in school I plan to work at least part-time. I may use my degree, I may not. I may go on to postgrad, I may not. My degree is partially for my children, but mostly for me. It helps me feel like I’m not “just a mum”, although there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. It keeps me sane in between the nappy changes and the baby talk, and the endless laundry and washing up!
Kevin needs to keep his opinions to himself. First he wants to support ‘working families’ and then he begrudges the very thing that assists families to have both parents working — a tertiary education! You can’t have it both ways Kevin! Or should women only work in occupations which don’t require a tertiary education?
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The only thing I am going to say is I resent your closing comment about Tony Abbott. The man was asked what advice he would give to HIS DAUGHTERS, not the entire female population of Australia, but to his daughters and he said what he said. What is wrong with him wanting that?
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As a new graduate I can honestly say, that if I had not spend the last 5 years pursuing a degree, I sure as hell wouldn’t have spent it pursuing parenthood. As to K.Rudd… ha ha ha ha ha. He makes it sound as if women in higher education all have stable long term relationships with a partner who can afford to support them and their children (at least for awhile) and partners who are just begging them to reproduce. Ummm….. yeah. It’s pretty hard to put something off unless it’s there for the taking in the first place!
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LOVE IT!
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Gaining a tertiary qualification/qualifications that lead you into a serious professional career does make having children difficult. Often you have studied for your degree and then post grad studies after that. Then you are in an entry level grad position requiring 12-16 hour days. This doesnt change for a long time. Having mum missing from the home front for up to 16 hours per day and often on weekends as well doesnt make for a happy life for any children that may come along. Under these circumstances women who choose not to have children should be applauded for their choices not criticised.
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likewise if having a career was an excuse for not looking after your children
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I know it offends many women, but the reality is that it is women who give birth, can’t change that. So if women do not want to have kids, it obviously effects the population.
I know motherhood isn’t for everyone ( I have had my moments…sigh) but I do think some women get carried away thinking they have to prove something of themselves by getting degrees so they can somehow be justified when they do become mothers. Women should just do what THEY want to do……how many of us can conclusively say we have done so since leaving school?
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Understand exactly how you feel YV. My mother recently tried to encourage my to have a baby. Never mind my uni degree that Im currently completing
. And some of my family dont seem too impressed with the idea that if I ever do decide to have children (unlikely) that I would prefer to adopt. People need to mind their own business!!
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Um, also – I don’t want to turn this into a ‘men vs women’ argument, but couldn’t it be theorised that men use their careers as an excuse to avoid the monotony, hard work, lack of recognition and often crushing boredom that tend to accompany being a stay-at-home parent?
Just another thought to add to the debate…
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I don’t think so Ani. Did you even read the next sentence?
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I don’t think so Ani. The next sentence, in case you couldn’t read it through your haze of indignation, was ‘Do both if you like’.
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Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by Tullo: RT @NewtonMark: RT @souriceaux: Dear Mr Rudd: I’m sorry that my barren womb+PhD offends you (and my mother) http://www.tiny9.com/u/mamamia...
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No Carol, stay on your soapbox! I like your style
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Yep, I’m with you…in his two years as PM, Rudd has rarely stuck his foot in his mouth…I find it highly unlikely he’d start now. PLUS I think this remark seems to fly in the face of previous statements and the fact that he has a successful, educated wife (she has an honours degree) who has still managed to have children.
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Yep, I’m with you…in his two years as PM he has rarely stuck his foot in his mouth…I find it highly unlikely he’d start now. PLUS I think this remark seems to fly in the face of previous statements and the fact that he has a successful, educated wife (she has an honours degree) who has still managed to have children.
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Well said, Tracy!
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Haha, thanks Lottie – I’ll try it out the next time I’m asked!
x
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I’m sorry but “maternal career”? Is that the PC term for stay-at-home mother?
Kind of suggests that working mothers aren’t maternal…
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We really can’t win, can we? Women who have children and devote their time to looking after those children, they are seen as being lazy. Or selfish. Women who have children and continue to study/work are labelled hard-nosed and career-obsessed. And selfish. Women who don’t have children, whether or not it’s by choice, are called…oh. Selfish. Women who don’t have ‘enough’ children aren’t doing the right thing by the nation’s ageing population or by the economy. Women who have ‘too many’ children are doing the wrong thing by the environment on what is an already over-populated planet.
Fah cryin’ out loud! I give up. I am taking my adorable daughter and my postgrad studies to live in a cave in the wilderness.
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Perhaps I’m being naive but I really can’t imagine that KRudd would say anything like that, directly to someone and actually mean it. I’m afraid her righteous indignation about what I’m sure was either a joke or a comment twisted about is a little off putting for me. People who get all hot under the collar about things such as that are wasting a lot of precious energy worrying about a problem that really doesn’t exist.
People are always going to have opinions about what other people do with their life but if you are secure in your choices then it really shouldn’t bother you too deeply. Have children, don’t have children. Have a workforce career or choose a maternal career. Do both if you like. I’m pretty sure we have all those choices open to us so if you’re lucky enough to have the choice then don’t waste time on what other people think.
It’s when politicians start putting such thoughts into policy that it becomes a time to really worry and use our voting power. Another choice we have. This is coming from someone with two degrees who is now a SAHM of three and someone who was happy with all those choices.
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Hey YV…I used to smile and say, ‘As soon as I am pregnant, I promise you will be the first to know’ – no matter who it was rudely asking me!
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Enjoy!!
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I meant ‘excuse’ with irony…
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Wow, Krud has said a lot of stupid things but this one really takes the cake. As a woman, and a human being (!!) it is my choice to decide whether or not I want children, when I decide to have them, and how I want to raise them. The government has no right to tell me that this is my ‘civic duty’. I suppose that his next comment would be that the aging generation can just go ahead and live on the street because they’re taking up precious housing?
I have a degree, no children yet, am married and will have children when I feel that I am financially stable to not have to be a strain on the already under-funded resources, and am content enough with what I have done in my life to be prepared to make a hell of a lot of sacifices for the following 18 or more years. Isn’t it better to have parents who don’t resent their children because they were had out of obligation and are taking time and funds away from pursuits that the parents (both women and men) felt they missed out on?
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I was trying to remember who had said that Helen. It’s a great comment. I too think Nina is probably being a bit precious. After all, her income (and that of other Gen Y’ers) is pretty important to the here and now tax-wise.
I never felt any pressure one way or the other. I had my first child at 31 after a few trips overseas, 2 university degrees and 9 years in the paid workforce. I kind of felt like I’ve had it all, but not at the same time. And I’ve done it as it suited me. Of course I have friends who had their kids at 21, 22 (now teenagers) and their current freedom seems pretty enticing, but…I have to remind myself that I’ve been there.
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Perhaps, but it’s hardly an ‘excuse’ – those are very valid concerns.
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Yes I also noted that article and sent it around to my work colleagues yesterday, prefixed with a WTF? There are so many mixed messages streaming from society, not to mention the ridiculous sound bites espoused by our politicians. On one hand we are told to access and heartily pursue a good education – a genuine gift we have in this country is the quality of our education -and as people, not to mention women, we are encouraged that this is a genuine path to self improvement, job satisfcation, financial security etc. To have children is, in my view, a basic human right, but the comments of Mr Rudd yesterday clearly position it as an either/or proposition You either pursue the basic human right of children or education and of course, dare you pursue them in the wrong order, you are CLEARLY just making excuses. Is Mr Rudd suggesting that women procreate in favour of obtaining the education necessary to produce the scientists, teachers, academics and economists (but to name a few) of this world, because a PhD is a necessary requirement for these valuable contributions to society and difficult (although by no means impossible given the right support structures) to manage part time or along side children? And if this is the case, what kind of gender instabilty would this establish down the track and how does this affcet our society more generally. Would Mr Rudd prefer that a greater proportion of women rely on social welfare because they havent been enabled to obtain whatever the necessary education they need to support themselves or their family should the unfportunate opportunity arise (separation, partner loses job etc etc) Or, is he merely suggesting that higher education is an indulgent pursuit? That would be a little hypocritical…..wouldnt it? I would love to wax lyrical about the possibility to do what Mr Rudd suggest and procreate before pursuing higher education, but the support structures are simply not there (both in social support and often within Universities) to make this an easy process for most. I have a phD and felt enormously grateful at the opportunity to pusue one. Is this my ‘excuse’ for being childless at 35. Absolutely not. I didnt pursue my PhD at the ‘expense’ of a relationship and children. I had an 11 year relatuionship that overlapped my studies, but kids just never happened for us, not because of study, because the relationship was not right . Will I personally be better equipped to support my childern (should I be lucky enough to have them) , emotionally and financially because of my education compared to say 10 years ago – you betcha.
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Do u ask the question ‘since when is having kids not a choice’ to the people who look horrified? what do they say?
I’d love to find a witty one-liner to shut up people like that… If anyone has one, let me know!!
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Wow i just signed up for Uni on Friday and im childless and i am non maternal. And im s-s-s-single.
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At least starting a degree and deciding that it wasn’t right for you is not too big a deal; imagine having a child and then realising that you weren’t ready at all and you don’t want that responsibility! It’s a seriously irreversible life choice, and not one for everyone.
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I also hate how people put pressure on others to have children, when they have no idea what that person is going through – how would they feel if they hassled u about kids, and you said, “Actually we’re trying” or “we just miscarried” or something?? People need to mind their own business…
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I don’t understand why anyone would be pressuring you, especially at your age and stage of life. Good on you for being polite — just smile and point out that you’re currently focussing on other things.
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I couldnt agree more! You have to ready in yourself and decide for whatever reasons. If you are comfortable with where you are at the stage in your life then who cares.
Another valid point is having children is not just a thing you tick off before or after or whilst or at a certain point in age, career or study.
Everybody take a step back and enjoy whereever you are at.
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Amen to that.
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Moral of the story: You can’t win! So fuck ‘em and just do what makes you smile
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No. You’re just polite. Don’t be hard on yourself. Bloody nosy family members!
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AMEN to that!
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I agree with you LMM. I do think Kevin was taking the piss and that small comment was taken way out of proportion.
Perhaps the lesson for KevBo should be that women can be pretty senstive in this area, so he should probably STFU about it?
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Hmmm I know that one – married at 21, first kid at 23. Also happen to have an education and a career. But I think the judgement isn’t about the education and career, it’s about the lifestyle. In my situation at least, I think some friends see my choices as being an attack on their lifestyle – like I’m saying that their choices are wrong. Which I am – their lifestyle choices are wrong FOR ME. But are probably right FOR THEM. I think that people should be more open minded to the possibility that the lifestyle choices which may be the best ones for them (be it working, marrying, having babies, going to uni, joining a commune, all of the above) will not necessarily be the best ones for everyone else in the world.
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What pisses me off even more is that I don’t want to be rude, so I just say nothing and try to laugh it off.. I’m an idiot!
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Gee YV, what’s up with all that family pressure? Totally uncool!
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I have a kid – I didn’t have her for the nation, I had her for me. Doesn’t that make me just as “selfish” as those that don’t have kids?
P.S. I also have two degrees, one at postgrad level, does that make me even more selfish – I waited until the ripe old age of 23 to have a kid so that I could finish my education.
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I think I have to agree that perhaps Nina is finding a ‘deeper meaning’ where it doesn’t actually exist.
I also think that Mr Rudd has a better sense of humour than she’s gives him credit for.
My approach to matters such as these is to blithely ignore the fickle bleeting of politicians/society, and simply do the best I can with whatever life throws my way.
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I totally agree with both of you.. Uni takes up a massive chunk of life after school, then you need to find the right career path (that’s if anyone is willing to hire uni graduates! grr..) and then the other big one is finding the right person.. We shouldn’t be procreating for the sake of reversing the ageing population, we should be doing the right thing by the unborn children!
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Yes, maybe Kevin will be sleeping on the Lodge sofa tonight….
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Exactly. We are less and less likely to be ready to have children in our early twenties — most of us are only just getting into the workforce then, not to mention working ourselves out!
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Thank P.g! You totally summed up how I feel… To me, having a kid is a MASSIVE decision and not something I’d ever take lightly!
Things are just different now. Young people are moving out of their parents places later on, working full-time later on because four years have been spent studying, getting into debt quicker thanks to HECS…
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The part about you not wanting to tell your mum in case she yelled at you just made me laugh
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I have 2 degrees, one is a Masters. i also had our son when I was 29 years old. When I was studying, had a career and no child I was judged for not having children. When I stopped work and had our son I was judged for abandoning my career. When I went back to study I was judged for studying, not working and for putting our son in childcare. Now that I’m finished study, back working and our son is at school I am judged for having an only child!!! The moral of the story for me is that no matter what choices we make there will always be someone who doesn’t agree with sitting in judgement. We just try to make the choices that we believe are right for our family. Obviously I believe in every individuals right to make their own choices, but no one can we ignore biology – it is women who have the babies and we can only do it for a certain period of our lives.
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I’ll be honest with you Kevin, I’m 24 soon and would love kids, I’d also love a vintage Aston Martin but it’s just not on the cards right now.
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There are probably examples of women/men continuing education so they don’t have to have children; women/men having children so they don’t have to continue education or get a career. I think what these are though, are individuals who are entitled to make those choices. I doubt that either of these things are happening on any scale, it’s just people living life & making different choices.
I know when I went to uni as an undergraduate & postgraduate student, the thought of this having any connection whatsoever to having children was completely alien to me. I was 21 when I finished and it had never occurred to me.
I can’t read Kevin’s mind but at I guess I’d say he’d be cringing at making such a ridiculous remark. Hopefully he’d be cringing at what he said and thinking about it, as well as the political stupidity of it.( I’d also guess that maybe Therese might have had something to say too).
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mmmm dictator. We don’t need one of those running our country or else he will surely be run out by a majority of our women voters! Also a thought what would Julia’s opinion be on this? Wish she was PM, I have alot of respect and admiration for her, she is so damn smart and quick witted with her answers on the tough questions she gets thrown.
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God I never had pressure to have kids. I’m 29. No one has ever told me to procreate. So little pressure have I received in fact, that when I fell pregnant a few months short of my 28th birthday, I didn’t want to tell my mother in case she yelled at me for having a baby too young…!! I think some people get pressure from their families, but if people are interpreting politicians speeches as a shaming that they haven’t had kids yet, then I think there’s a bit of sensitivity in the room.
I wasn’t at the function where KRudd spoke, however, I think that Nina’s piece screams a little of oversensitivity and overreaction. She has construed her entire opinion piece from what she said was the ‘deeper meaning’ that she gleaned from KRudd’s words – implicit meaning, I’m thinking, not explicitly said….
There shouldn’t be pressure on women to reproduce. At the moment we are experiencing record childbirth rates, and we’re just setting up future generations for another baby boomer bust in 100 years time. Redistribution of the global population works for me – increase immigration I say.
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I’m not sure Alana was making generalisations…she obviously knows her friends well, and they may have verbalised to her that they are having children to avoid careers…as I have had people that I know honestly state to me that having children relinquishes them of having to pursue a career. I dont agree with, or understand their choice, but I respect it. If Alana thinks her friend’s actions are pathetic, she’s allowed. Sometimes it’s hard to articulate what you really mean, in writing on a blog forum.
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Here’s a thought – Kevin, how about our elected spokespeople, the ones who are meant to be representing modern Australia, get with the program and adjust your policies around the fact that THIS IS HOW WE DO IT NOW!
Quentin Bryce has it all worked out. She said something to the effect of ‘women can have it all. Just not all at the same time.’
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I agree. Do what’s right for you, and everyone else can mind their own business!
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What are you waiting for?! Um, everything… time to yourselves, time to grow and strengthen your relationship, time to establish a life somewhere… money, a job you like… any/all of these!
For heaven’s sake. Having children is the biggest and most irreversible decision you make; it’s SO important to be sure and to go in with your eyes open. If you’re just not ready yet, that is more than ok (especially at such a young age).
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Wasn’t that the argument Hitler used to get all those German women making babies ‘for Germany’? That it was their civic duty?
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True, Mary, it probably was just a throw-away remark. I like Kevin and Julia too. I guess we’re using it as a jumping-off point to start discussion about a very real issue.
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I’m 23 in a couple of months – and all I get from relatives and friends of my parents is “When are you going to have kids?”, “Start having kids!”, “What are you waiting for?!”
What we’re waiting for is:
* For us to find our feet career-wise first, since we’re both straight out of uni
* We’re hoping to buy our own place soon and want to do that before having kids
* We’d like to have some time together on our own and just CHILL THE FUCK OUT, since we’re fresh out of living with my parents
* Get some more life experience and maturity to that we could actually handle having a kid…
And that’s even IF I decide I want to have kids, which at the moment, I’m just not sure. I’m only 22, geez…
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Can’t have one without the other…
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Yes, yes, YES!
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I must admit I nearly choked on my breakfast when I read the same article in the SMH this morning – I am a bit of a fan of Kevin, and found these remarks incongruous with views he has previously expressed. We want our academics to be the best they can and we should do everything to encourage our population to grasp educational opportunities available to them. With or without children. Similarly, we need to encourage and support women in their choices to have children when they feel it is right for them. Everyone’s road to happiness and fulfillment is different.
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That’s true — why do we need to keep encouraging people to have children at all? The strain on the earth and room for people’s personal preference and freedom of choice should allow for women and men everywhere to choose not to have children and not feel guilty about it.
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I’m in my twenties, and at some stage, I want children: I don’t consider that and the fact that I am currently working towards a life in academia to be conflicting choices. Several of the PhD candidates in my office have children, and one had a child during the PhD. Personally, I think it’d be more plausible to suggest that people have children and then avoid tertiary education.
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My sister who is 33 and has been married for 11 years doesn’t have children. Its not that she can’t, its just that she chooses not to. No she doesn’t have a career, she doesn’t have many pets or anything to look after, or anything major to fill her time, she just chooses not to have them. As her sister, I am constantly asked by people “why doesn’t she have kids yet?”. When I tell them “she doesn’t want any”, they look at me as though I said “she tortures puppies”! My mother especially gets the same treatment off people about her, particularly from her friends of the older generation, they just don’t understand why she doesn’t have kids, like there must be something horribly wrong with her for not having this desire for reproducing.
I just don’t understand the critical judgement on these people’s faces!! And that leads me to ask the question: Since when is having kids not a choice??
I’m 26 and I don’t have kids, wouldn’t mind maybe one day but not right now cause a) I’m not in a relationship so it would be a little difficult, b) I’m currently focusing on my career; and c) to be honest Ii just don’t feel like having that responsiblity right now. But why is their so much societal pressure that we have must them right now?? Why the harsh judgement K Rudd??
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In life, just do what makes you happy.
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If this is what he wants he should back it up with policy – how about abolishing HECS debts for women who have children, either before or after they get their degree?
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So offensive in your generalisations Alana.
Just because you BELIEVE that some of your friends have had children rather than pursuing a career does not make it true and to be honest you wouldn’t be a friend that I would want if I found out you thought that by my having children made me pathetic.
Neither myself or my husband have ever stepped foot in a university yet we are financially secure enough for me to be a full time stay at home mum for the past 9 years…no collecting the dole to support my choices here!
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So offensive in your generalisations Alana.
Just because you BELIEVE that some of your friends have had children rather than pursuing agree does not make it true and to be honest you wouldn’t be a friend that I would want if I found out you thought that by my having children made me pathetic.
Neither myself or my husband have ever stepped foot in a university yet we are financially secure enough for me to be a full time stay at home mum for the past 9 years…no collecting the dole to support my choices here!
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What if some of them already had children too? Kevin Rudd is, as you point out, making assumptions of their appearance.
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Kzmet, I could not agree more.
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You can’t win as a woman – I’ve been told I’m selfish for having three, that I don’t pay taxes so I’m a bludger (um, I don’t claim any government benefits, I only gave up work 3 months ago to study, and these kids have two parents, one of whom pays plenty of tax, and I paid plenty of tax in the 10 years I spent in the workforce before having kids) and I should be out in the world showing my children that I’m a force beyond being a parent (presumably in the hour a day I’d spend with them?) or I should be staying at home with them all day and not burdening society with child care….
Hang on, can you do all of that at once?
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And I know a few of those too…”hiding behind their uteruses” is one term of description I have heard. Harsh? Probably. But their own choice, I guess.
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Once again, the world doesn’t need more children, but what it does need is more educated people.
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Me too!!!
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We have economic birth control in our society.
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Oh geez, I like Kevin Rudd, can’t stand Tony Abbot, but it’s not a politician’s business to comment about women and their choice to have or not to have babies. These politicians seem to have quite old-fashioned ideas about things! Besides… it’s not these male politicians who actually has the children!
I’m 37, I don’t want kids – don’t even know if I CAN have kids – but I love my life how it is, and kids would change EVERYTHING! I don’t believe that’s selfish at all. I hate it when people say it’s selfish not to have kids! I pay taxes, isn’t that enough?!
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I think men and women can use their tertiary education as an excuse to avoid starting a family, because it goes like this:
You do your degree. You can’t get a job at the end of it, so you take that offer of honours. Then you still can’t get a job that pays a living wage so you take that masters or phd scholarship. All the while at uni you’re basically living the lifestyle and so don’t seriously settle down, particularly if you’re dating another student. You are too busy studying and working to actually have children – because you are a smart person and know that it would be very difficult to do both at once!
Then you finally finish and you’ve got a huge HECS debt, and you really want to establish yourself in your career since it was so hard to get started, plus you’d like to buy a house before you have kids, and if you decide to get married first there’s that to pay for too…
And suddenly you’re over 30 and having your first child! This happens to both men and women.
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What planet are you from? Why do you assume that everyone aspires to and wants to procreate? Not everyone does or is ready.
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Another thought – I would love to be a fly on the wall when he tries to explain this one to Julia…
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Great article Nina! Rudd needs to tread very carefully on this subject, as a woman who does not wish to reproduce, I can’t stand the fact that he says it is our “civic duty”. We have choices in life some will choose to have children and some won’t. It is not up to the government to make our decisions.
As for the ageing population is it all the prescription pills keeping them alive??
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I am in shock that Kevin Rudd said this – he has presented himself as an advocate for women and now to reduce their role in society to breeding… well, it really makes me sick. Women are entitled to the same opportunities as men. If that means they want a PhD and not a baby, then good on them. If he is so worried about not enough children growing up in our society, how about addressing the appalling adoption rules and opening up Australia to more foreign adoption and allowing gay, single and older couples (in the 40s) to adopt? Of course women will delay having children while they are focussing on career and study as the options for supporting them to have children are limited – hello no paid maternity leave and very expensive childcare options.
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Dammit – last comment posted before I had finished!
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I think a silly remark is being taking way too seriously. I like Kevin and Julia. I considered John Howard an embarrassment on the world stage.
I don’t have kids, never wanted them and do not in anyway regret my choice. I have 3 degrees. But we do like in a family centric world. I think women are judged, for want of a better word, on whether they have children or not by family, friends, society and other women.
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There was an
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For goodness’ sake… What if one of the women in that group was infertile? What if some had been trying to have children – and failed? What if some wanted nothing more than to have a child but just hadn’t found a partner yet? What if some wanted to adopt, from Australia or overseas, but couldn’t because they were single/in a homosexual relationship? Let The Assumptions Stop.
Conversely, what if some of those women had a child because that was “what was expected”, but then neglected/resented them? I have worked in child care for fifteen years, and I can tell you there are some (very few, but some) parents out there who see their children as an inconvenience. How do I know? Because they have told me. There are some startingly honest people out there.
And as for being a civic duty? GIVE ME A BREAK. If the government thinks it is sooooooo important for everyone to reproduce, how about putting some real funding into maternity/parental leave and early childhood education? Hmmmm? If kids are so important, put your money where your mouth is, Mr Rudd. How about making it easier for parents? If they REALLY see it as a priority, back it up with policy AND funding. Pay the early childhood educators what they are worth. Give parents REAL choices, instead of applying fear tactics and guilt. The fact that Rudd thinks that it has to be an either/or proposition, for WOMEN, not men, makes my blood boil.
And you know what? I don’t see anything wrong with people choosing not to have children. Don’t get me wrong here – I love kids. I love watching two year olds discover their new abilities, and I adore seeing four year olds discover the world, and realise their own strengths. They make fantastic little buddies. But they are NOT a commodity to be used by the government, and to bolster our economy. They are people with rights. And they have a right to be born into as family that has longed for them, or has welcomed them as a surprise addition.
I’ll get off the soapbox now…
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“Why do we assume it is the obligation of all women to reproduce? And why do we label them as selfish when they don’t? We never label career-driven men as selfish”
SUCH a salient point. Frankly, you’re letting down the sisterhood if this is what you believe.
Being a parent isn’t for everyone. Come over to my place any weeknight if you don’t believe me.
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Maybe Kevin should speak to a group on 30 year old men who are choosing to live it up in their bachelor pads, partying and swinging from one women to another about how they are avoiding having children. Pfft, I never thought that I’d be frowned upon by trying to make something of myself as an almost 25 y. O woman who is at uni still.
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This makes me so angry! Has multi-millionare Kevin (thanks to his missus lets all remember) tried having a baby on Austudy or whilst holding down 2 or 3 jobs during study? I really think sometimes that they are living in cloud cuckooland, for me it is not a point of being baby factory or not, it is the economic reality of children – they are expensive and when you are studying just clothing and feeding yourself is enough.
How about this Kevin?? Why don’t you commission some economists to come up with an alternative freemarket way of not relying on growth for economic stability? Surely to God the greatest minds could create a theory that means we dont have to populate our way out of existance in order to make money. Environmentally and in terms of human quality of living creating baby upon baby is not the way to a happy and balanced planet.
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I’m 27. I have two university degrees. I don’t have children – yet. Not because I have two degrees, but because I thought it was probably better to take time to mature, build a solid relationship, become financially secure etc before I start having children. I will probably have children in the next couple of years, and I fully intend to do a Masters as well (if I want to keep my current job indefinitely I’ll have to do a doctorate as well). I would have thought these kind of choices were preferable to KRudd than for me to have got pregnant at 20 and require government assistance.
If I look around my department at work (yes, at a university), I see young women like me who study before marrying and having kids, I see 30-somethings with no degrees and no children, several women with doctorates AND children, men with children, men without children (interestingly, we have no men with doctorates in our department…). We have all made conscious decisions about our lives – surely that’s better than mindless procreation for the sake of procreation?
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That’s funny, I have been accused before of starting a family in order to avoid continuing my tertiary education (and thus have a career and “contribute to society” in some way). Seems women can’t win either way. If we do advanced study we are “selfish” and disadvantaging the country by not having children. If we have children (and stay at home to care for those children) we are a drain on society and wasting our education and intelligence.
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Gah! Kevin! What are you doing?? Sigh. I actually like K Rudd. Would prefer Julia though…
I am on my third degree at the age of 33, so I guess I am one of the women that he is talking about with my ‘empty womb’. But then again – I don’t know that I actually want children anyway, it hasn’t been a conscious decision that I will preference study and my career over children. I have had a series of crappy partners, and to be honest the choice has never come up. So should I be running around panicking that I haven’t had one yet and I should drop my career and find myself a man to procreate?? Please. I may never had children, but some of us are destined not to. And quite frankly there is enough strain on the earth and its resources without me having to pop one out for our planet.
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“We never label career-driven men as selfish.”
Not only that, but men’s life choices are almost *never* blamed for reproduction rates. It’s as if all babies are conceived by some kind of spontaneous process involving only the mother.
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Geezus!! Young women have a lot of new opportunities now than they used to, kids become less of a priority as they want a career first! I however am 22 turning 23 in august. I am getting married in November and intend to start to try to have a baby. I feel judged by a lot of my friends who think i should be doing more with my life than just getting married and having babies. BUT it is what i was out of life. I don’t judge them. So really, i dont think you can win with whatever you do in life, you will always be judged by someone, you just have to make sure you are doing the right thing by you! : ) Kevin is way out of line to suggest that all women need to get married and have kids, and put the rest of their life on hold. Thats my opinion anyway : ) Does anyone else feel judged by being young and wanting to have children?
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i know it’s unfashionable, but i actually like Kevin and believe he is doing some good for this coountry. But waaaaay off base on this one, Kevin. Firstly, what an insensitive & plain stupid comment. Secondly, none of his business anyway – so sick of women’s choices re career/children/study being judged/disceted so openly. Finally, do we not want to be encouraging women to enter academia and gain the skills & knowledge to contribute to the workforce and society in general? Surely society would be all the poorer if we don’t have women contributing to all sectors: academia, workforce and family. The order in which we do it (study first, then babies and maybe later workforce or the total opposite babies first, then study or no babies at all- whatever) surely is up to the individual depending on their circumstances.
There is room for all choices. It’s called diversity & balance. Let’s celebrate it, not tear each other apart trying to enforce our own ideals (or Kevin’s!!!!) or choices.
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indeed! on both counts.
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I totally agree with you there Mike! I am an under 30 female who is at university and I’m not using it as an excuse to not have a family. I believe that I have friends that have chosen to have a child rather than persue any type of career and personally I think that’s quite pathetic if that’s the case. Ps, I plan to be financially secure when I have my babies, rather than collect the dole to support my choices!
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Are you kidding me KRudd? Did Tony Abbott slip something in your drink?
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Doing a PhD is a rather extreme measure to take in order to avoid having children.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if having children was looked upon as an excuse for not having a career.
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Oh, K-Rudd, you fool!
There is NOTHING wrong with a woman wanting to establish a career for herself before she has kids. Or maybe not even a career, but just to have some sort of tertiary qualification under her belt so she can get into the workforce in 10 years time when the bubs are all at school.
I’m a uni student, and if I fell pregnant now, I don’t think I could keep the baby, mainly because I would want to finish my degree. If I happened to fall pregnant AFTER completing my degree, things would be veeery different. Of course, I want children. But I’m not going to be merely a procreation tool for the rest of my life. I’ll want to work eventually, and a uni degree is the smartest way for me to go about that, even if it involves putting off having children for a few years.
“Women should be seen as more than mere baby incubators who procreate for the benefit of the nation. Despite what some might think, women can contribute in a variety of ways which do not involve their uteruses”. SO TRUE.
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