Matty Johns on ACA: the aftermath
Yesterday, a journalist I know and admire called Caroline Overington called me for comment on this story for a feature she was writing for today's Australian newspaper.
At first, I said no. It was an instinctive reaction based on my fear of being verbally abused by NRL fans. It's happened before, when I went on…..
……the Today Show and criticised Brett Stewart and the culture of the NRL which seems incapable of instilling the concept of respecting women into many (not all) of its players. The emails I received afterwards were aggressive and absusive.
But then, I thought about it. And I thought about the brave women who came forward on Four Corners to tell their stories. And I thought about Sarah Fergusson, the Four Corners reporter who broke that story and compiled that astonishing investigative piece of journalism. I thought about female sports journalists like Rebecca Wilson and Carolyn Wilson who have repeatedly written passionately and courageously about the issue. And I thought about Tracey Grimshaw who, on ACA the night before her interview with Matty Johns, spoke out stridently condemning him and the culture that could allow such a thing to take place, as well as the off-hand way it was handled by her colleagues at The Footy Show during Matty Johns' public apology last week.
And I thought to myself, THIS is why nothing ever changes. THIS is why no NRL player has ever been convicted. THIS is why this disgusting behaviour has been allowed to continue behind closed doors for so many years – decades if you believe former coach Roy Masters who told Sarah Fergusson (and Rebecca Wilson) that group sex has been a way for footy players to 'bond' for generations.
And I thought about how much I admire all those women for standing up and making their voices heard. And I was ashamed that I was thinking of staying silent. Not that my opinion or my comments matter much in the scheme of things. But symbolically, I felt it was something I should do.
Caroline's feature is published in The Australian today and she has used a couple of small quotes from me but more importantly, she's used quotes from YOU.
She visits mamamia and she read your comments and quoted from them (anonymously) with my permission.
Here's an excerpt from her feature:
"In a deeply uncomfortable interview, Johns told Tracy Grimshaw on
Nine's A Current Affair last night he was sorry for "any pain and
trauma" the woman had suffered. He said what happened was "morally not
OK". At the same time he disputed her account and insisted she "was a
willing participant in what occurred", was in no distress and "gave no
indication she didn't want to be there".
The decision to cut Johns loose to face the storm alone wasn't
supported by all in the community, with websites flooded with protests.
Sure, the incident with the girl in NZ was ugly, but it was also a
sexual act, between consenting adults, more than seven years ago.
But those who know Nine boss David Gyngell weren't surprised that he
acted quickly. He's a good and gentle guy, and although he is a mate of
Johns, he was genuinely appalled by what he heard and saw on Four
Corners.
There's no doubt that the network had learned something from the
incident with Sam Newman, an ex-AFL player who fondled a female
mannequin on the Victorian Footy Show, as a way to humiliate and debase
one of the best sports reporters in the country, who happens to be
female: The Age's Caroline Wilson. The backlash from the public saw
ratings plummet.
If the NRL was in any doubt about what the public – and in
particular, women – thought of the behaviour uncovered by Four Corners,
it needed only to go to Twitter or the blogs, and see the comments
raging.
"I used to be the biggest Matty Johns fan going, but this has put me
off him in a way nothing else could," says one of social commentator
Mia Freedman's readers, on the MamaMia blog. "Him being allowed to keep
his job would send the worst message to young blokes."
Another said: "Women make most of the consumer decisions in their
households, so let's hit 'em where it hurts. Cancel the memberships,
the season tickets; when the Footy Show is on then switch over. Most of
all, pull your kids out of the sport."
Prominent sports journalist Rebecca Wilson wrote in Sydney's The
Daily Telegraph that she'd received dozens of emails from female league
fans who cried throughout the Four Corners show.
"They will never go to a league game again, let alone allow any of their sons to play the game," Wilson said.
Some in the program had put forward the idea that rugby league
encourages aggression and risk-taking on the field, and that it was
hard for young men to be "submissive" – the word used by Newcastle
Knights chief executive Steve Burraston – off the field.
But nobody was buying that.
Freedman says there is "something clearly wrong with the culture at
the NRL that allows young men to think it's OK to treat women this
way".
"It's not like the NRL is the only time men get together in groups.
It's not like footballers are the only people who go away to play, and
stay together, and have a drink together," she says. "Yet they are the
ones so often caught in sex scandals. Where is the men's swimming team
sex scandal? We're told that these men have to be aggressive, they have
to be gladiators on the field, and you can't expect them to just switch
off.
"But it isn't true. There is no reason why men can't play sport, and play it well, and still be decent men."
Bad behaviour is not exclusive to the code, but it does have by far the worst reputation.
Other sports are replete with examples of gentleman warriors: George
Gregan, John Eales and Nick Farr-Jones, for example, and Peter
FitzSimons, all of whom played rugby union for Australia, and are now
pillars of thecommunity.
Australian Rugby Union officials nevertheless admitted on Tuesday
that they could not guarantee bad behaviour towards women had never
occurred in their code.
There are some in rugby league who are appalled, too. Preston
Campbell, a Gold Coast player, told The Daily Telegraph yesterday that
the woman in NZ must have been so afraid, to see so many men in the
room, waiting to have sex with her.
"I have a daughter myself," he said. "If it happened to my daughter,
I'd want some answers from police. She must be struggling. She must
have been scared."
The league was shattered by the program not only because of the
ugliness it explosed, but because it has put so much effort in recent
years to boosting the image of its players.
Matt Franklin, who runs education and welfare programs for NRL
players, says an incredible effort has gone into programs to encourage
young players to respect other people. Franklin says he's proud of many
of the young men who come through the sport. He encourages them to get
balance in their lives, by taking up educational programs, or other
pursuits, while also playing footy.
You can read Caroline's full feature here and I highly recommend you do……
Did you watch the Matthew Johns interview last night? I must say I found it pretty astonishing
that he and his wife had not seen the Four Corners report until they
were asked by Channel 9 to view it before the interview. I cannot fathom the reasoning behind not having viewed the report when it was aired.
I've been listening to radio all morning and my head is spinning with all the views being expressed. My own opinion is that like so many men, Matty still doesn't comprehend the nuances involved with 'consent'. The consent of a 19 year old girl who was in a room with a dozen big footballers is unspeakably tainted. The imbalance of power was grotesque. Someone should have seen that and acted to stop it. THIS is what we need to be concerned about. THIS is what the NRL must seek to drum into the thick heads of the men who routinely treat women as empty vessels to be used and discarded.
You might also like:
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“Rugby league culture has been exposed this week as the big, festering boil it is…”
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Matthew Johns had group sex with his footy mates and a 19 year old girl. Another nightmare day for the NRL.
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Here’s an idea for footy players this weekend: stay home!
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An open letter to the NRL
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Matthew Johns & more appalling stories about NRL group sex. Thank you Four Corners for an outstanding report.
Probably noone listeneing anymore but I just have to say _ Cate & TheRealSydney especially – you took the words right out of my mouth. Glad to hear voices of reason amongst the hysteria
Is this a record number of comments?
Kass, that is such a huge thing to share with the blog. You are very brave.
Given the back and forth that has gone on, your story should be the end of it. You’ve expressed it eloquently, factually, from both sides of the coin. That really is the end of the matter. But it never is, is it?
Mere_male brings up that litany of the experience of all us older peeps; it’s happened before, and it’s gonna happen again….
Perhaps what goes on behind closed doors will never change; yet this storm in a teacup, this storm in the blogosphere, will perhaps redefine our social values. We don’t treat women like this, no matter what the situation. Men and women are accountable for their behaviour. While older peeps may have paid lip service to this, it seems to have slipped under the radar in recent times.
It is never acceptable to slash another human being with a glass. It is never acceptable to engage in behaviour that denigrates or degrades another human being. These realisations should be tantamount to a moral code, not only the subject of this blog, but also that Bill of Rights that our pollies waffle on about occasionally.
This hasn’t been a storm in a teacup, it has been a watershed debate that shows there is a distinct groundswell of support for the dignity of people and a disaffection for the predators in our society. Glassing, group rape, and sexual assault are no longer activities to be brushed under the carpet, to be forgotten in the light of day; they are issues we need to address. To deny retribution for these crimes is, in itself, reprehensible. Harrumph!
Thanks for sharing that Kass.
GeorgiaSweet, english is my second language, I am glad you understood the message, I have been thinking about the issue, and i got something for the the players, if they are into group sex and the like, they could consider to use brothels,and live young women alone.
With our moral compasses swinging wildly, I suppose we have all read this article in “The Age”?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/generation-sex-as-norms-shift-20090516-b6tn.html
Whilst the article talks about what was or was not “fantasy sex” with the previous generation, I can vividly remember my university years in the late 60s and early 70s: the pill, no HIV or hepatitis C, free love, sexual liberation, burning bras / no bras and a lack of responsibility that went with all of the above: “spit-roasts” and group sex were not unusual at some parties and residential colleges. Did no-one here ever go to a music festival (and look at the acts off-stage as much as on-stage)? A real eye-opener (no pun intended) for a naive young lad from the country.
I wonder how many senior doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants (mmm, perhaps not accountants) and yes perhaps even those self-appointed moral gate-keepers – journalists – feel mortified and embarrassed when thinking back on their tertiary student years. I wonder how many would like their previous (sex) lives subject to the same intense level of media scrutiny.
kass, that is a big thing to share. Thank you for being so generous.
I similarly had a call with a footballer and a boxer, around 1986. They were guests at an award night at the venue where I worked. Luckily, I was sober and they weren’t and I had security guards to warn them off. But neither of them would believe I would not be interested. They were VERY persistant. Embarassingly so.
I consider myself lucky to have been spared anything terrible. Both men have since gone on to have form, both being tried for assult. Strange things can happen on a dark night when alcohol is involved.
Kass, thanks so much for having the courage to share your story. I, too, am torn by this issue and your post has given me more to consider.
I was sexually assaulted by an AFL player and his mate in 1996. I was 18.
I met him in a club and, being drunk, was awfully impressed that he would even talk to me. I got in a cab with him and his mate to go to another footballers house.
By the time we arrived I had sobered up enough to know I did not want to be with either of them and I wanted to go home.
On arrival I tried to stay in the cab and go home but they insisted they would not touch me so I got out. Stupid on my part.
Outside this other footballers home they forced me to perform sexual acts on them both while the other watched. I cried thw whole time.
Thankfully the footballer whose home we went to, came out and realised I was distressed and told them to **** off. This was one of his teammates which I can now look back on and see as being brave on his part.
This footballer then put me into his car and drove me home, 20 mins away, at 3.30am.
It affected my relationships with men for years and I am still so embarrassed.
So, armed with that experience, I say this:
At 18 or 19, no-one, not male or female. are fully matured in any way, least of all sexually. Most people at that age make mistakes of varying kinds and “Clare” did too by going back to the hotel room with Johns and his teammate.
But, like I had to, Clare has to take some responsibility for her decision. It is FINE for her to regret it and be embarrassed. I know I am. Like me, she chose not to alert police at the time. I chose not to because I felt responsible for what happened because I got in the cab. I know now that is wrong but it’s how I felt. I also did not want the inevitable media attention that it would bring (he was a well known player) and the labels that would be given to me – unfairly. I am not and was not a slut. I just made a stupid decision and was forced into doing something I did not want to when I tried to reverse that decision.
The Matthew Johns issue is not one of legality. Clearly no law was broken. This is an issue of morality. No doubt Clare’s morals have changed in the time since. I’d like to hope that Johns’ has too. But what the public is doing is making moral judgements about Matthew Johns, about his team-mates and about Clare.
No-one, outisde those DIRECTLY AFFECTED by those moral decisions, has the right to cast judgement on those involved. You might not approve of what happened. You might not like knowing it goes on. But it does go on. Widely. More widely than you’d think. And I bet many of your friends have taken part in sexual activities that they’re embarrassed by, would raher not recall and which you don’t like. But I bet it happens.
Personally I feel deep empathy for both sides of this situation. I can put myself in Clare’s place and know how she came to be in that situation, and how she has come to feel as she does today. I also feel sad that Matthew Johns has paid a very high price for what was a moral choice and the only person he is truly accountable to over that is his wife. I feel sorry that the families of BOTH Johns and Clare are going through continued anguish and pain for something that happened a long time ago. That both these people will have children who will be teased and taunted over this for years to come, and have to come to terms with knowledge of their parents activities – knowledge they should never have to know.
But I really think we should take care of our own moral lives and make sure we never do the wrong thing by another in any capacity before we start casting stones against people we don’t actually know.
TheRealSydney, I am inclined to sway over to your side of the fence now.
I was chatting to some girlfriends today and they told me that there are young women out there who genuinely enjoy having sex with several men, apparently young people have parties so they can do this.
Sounds revolting and hard to imagine for me but apparently there are people who are into that.
I guess it is like those leather and whip people?!
I used to work off Oxford St and I’d pass those stores in my lunchbreak and I was always surprised to see people shopping in there! So it must happen, people must like that kind of thing.
It takes all types…
OK – I’m banging on again – I just can’t seem to get this off my mind.
Many of you are pointing your comments around the girls age and immaturity.
So I just checked it out – the average age of the Cronulla Shark’s line up today, is 24 years old (8 of them are under 25 – 5 of them are 21 or under, there are 2 x 19 year olds)
One of the players involved 7 years ago, who has been named or stepped forward or shamed or whatever, was 22 years old at the time – wonder what his level of maturity was at the time ….
I’m with you again Cate – why hasn’t Mia posted again with regard to the new information on ‘Clare’. Clare is a disgrace to any woman who has been truly raped or sexually abused.
OK – had a think over the weekend and I have a bit more to say on this …
I think that maybe the main thing wrong with the NRL culture is that the media get involved and make us all begigitty about it – we know that there are girls who are willing to participate – it’s been proven over and over.
We wouldn’t be in a position to ‘judge’ their ‘moral compass’ if the media would stop telling us about it. There wouldn’t have to be public indignation if some reporter from Four Corners hadn’t dug this up!
If women are prepared to be disrespected then that’s their problem – we don’t have to ‘fix’ them, that’s just who they are.
Let’s talk about the ‘moral compass’ – why is it waved around so much when NRL players are concerned??
Elton John was a hard core coke addict, as was Robin Williams & Richard Prior – I could go on …
ummm – you wanna talk about role models : – Heath Ledger died from a drug overdose – GIVE HIM AN OSCAR!!!
Oooh Kate Moss – busted on camera snorting coke – give her a range at TOP SHOP and make her Honorary Second Chair at the Met Costume Gala.
Anyone here like Eddy Murphy movies? Dream Girls maybe? do you let your kids watch his movies? HE GOT BUSTED WITH A TRANSGENDER HOOKER, HE HAS HAD 8 KIDS TO FOUR DIFFERENT WOMEN & PUBLICLY DENIED PATERNITY OF AT LEAST ONE.
Any fans of Hugh Grant? Love Actually? HE GOT BUSTED GETTING A BLOW JOB FROM A HOOKER
What about Rob Lowe? he’s HOT in Brothers and Sisters right? UNDERAGE SEX TAPE SCANDAL
Oh and let’s not forget Charlie Sheen – 2 and a half men is a great show right? HE WAS INVOLVED IN BRINGING DOWN THE BIGGEST MADAM IN HOLLYWOOD.
WHY IS MATTY JOHNS LOSING HIS CAREER AND REPUTATION BECAUSE HE BANGED A LOOSE MORALED WOMAN 7 YEARS AGO??????
I don’t care if everything that went on in that hotel room was legal. What happened was a naive and young woman entered a hotel room and was taken advantage of. I don’t think anyone would deny this. Nothing illegal was found to have occurred. My problem with this whole issue is that some people seem to think that because she initially put herself in this situation, she should be somehow to blame for the actions of the football players also there. They blatantly took advantage of her. They didn’t even speak to her. Some say she should know better. And yes, she probably should. But I think her portion of the “blame” for her inability to extract herself from an unsavory situation PALES in comparison to the “blame” for these players actions. These men involved appeared to have no respect for this woman as a human being. AT ALL.
She may have acted unwisely by going back to the hotel room, but surely, SURELY you must agree that the burden of guilt (not in the legal sense) lies with these men? Men who are most likely more worldly than a “very young, even for 19″ year old girl? Men who knew they were leaving the country within a few days and could leave her behind? Men that we hold up as idols for our children?
wollywally: is that a new benchmark for the construction of a sentence? Impressively unbound by convention but still (strangely) understandable.
This just gets better and better, though that’s possibly the worst word to describe this media circus and public outcry. With each new development of the so called ‘facts of the matter’, opinions sway back and forth. First the morality of the participants is called into question; then the morals of a society that has fostered such a culture is examined. Both are found wanting by many, and questioned by all.
Though the situation is decidedly not a legal issue, it certainly is one of social concern. The grassroots interest from the blogoshere is being echoed stridently by many popular journalists in Australia. As one, they have come out in force to express opinions which reflect the public indignation.
As a result, the man or woman in the street seems more concerned with this issue than the economic future of our nation. The incumbent Milky Bar Kid’s budgetary pronouncements earlier this week barely raised an eyebrow, while the revelation that footballers are having group sex, and being paid lots of money to do so, raised the hackles of sports fans and cynics alike.
A league player’s leisure activities can no longer be described as ‘The Secret Life of Us’; more appropriate perhaps is ‘Packed To The Rafters’.
Unfortunately, for the next generation, such activity could also be called ‘How I Met Your Mother’.
I am a true beliver that action speack louder then words, the only way to change this to happen again his to hit the wallet, not wacthing the rugby, tv shows including the footy show that will brig changes, support the teams that do the right thing, discussing in blogs ect will only hurt the wife and the kids of Mr John wich are the real victims in the all saga, please remember that what get written in the internet stay in the internet for long time, all your comments will be free to be google for Mr, John kids and granchildrem, you wouldn’t like that to happen to you?!.
Straight off the bat I want to say I’m a West Australian so I have absolutely NO interest in the game at all. I have been watching this unfold all week and it appears this is what we know – Yes Matt Johns had sex Clare, Yes other players eneredt the room & he left the room, this matter was investigated when it happened 7 years ago and he & his wife dealt with this 7 years ago. Now since this doco aired her colleagues have come forward and said she bragged about it and a player who was there has stated the woman left the hotel room, propositioned him and took him back to her house. This behaviour would indicate that she was more than a willing participant. She was 19 at the time has probably grown up to become embarrassed by her actions and wants to blame other for her choices. In the mean time Matt Johns has lost his job, his reputation and his state of mind. What employer – anywhere else other than in the media – would sack a worker over something that happened 7 years ago, was investigated by police with no charges being laid? Yes he cheated on his wife but that is a matter for him & his wife, yes players entered the room and he left, Yes NRL has a rep for this sort of stuff but you can’t let all the other cases cloud your judgement over every single case. This story was done with the knowledge of what the fall out would be yet the reporter does not seem to have investigated any further to see if Clare’s version of events was correct.
I know I’m going to cop a bit of flack for what I have written here but seriously not all women are victims, they seek out celebs to bed – they are sports groupies, I know NRL players have been involved in genuine rape cases but unfortunately it will be because of people like Clare who will make it harder for the genuine people to be heard.
It is interesting that there are some who are confused by the idea of someone making a moral judgement of the situation, as opposed to judging the morals of the individuals in regard to their attitude to sex. The imbalance of power of the situation is the concern.
I too feel for John’s wife in this situation, and can only imagine how it would feel to have heard what had happened, from his point of view, for seven years and being confronted with details which would cause you to question that version.
I can only imagine, that her focus would undoubtedly have been on the infidelity of her husband. To be confronted, when viewing the 4 corners program, with the sordid details of the incident, would have been shocking.
I don’t doubt that she truly was shocked and like most people, consider how they, a friend or sister or daughter would have reacted in a similar situation.
She will no doubt find it hard to reconcile these things, along with the faith she had in the character of her husband.
Again, regarding John’s wife Trish: have you noticed how desperate she was for his words to be the truth? She kept saying “this is what our marriage has been sustained on, that is why it survived, due to his full disclosure”. The whole marriage is at stake; there is no possibility to consider an alternative to what she believes in, otherwise the past 7 years become a mirage.
Yes, Cate, Trish perhaps needs to figure out why she has chosen such a difficult path – remaining married to a man of questionable morals. It is painfully obvious that a man who is devoted to his wife would not make his one and only occasion of infidelity a despicable gang bang of a teenager. A person must be of a certain (im)moral fabric to cheat in THIS way…Only a naive person would assume that was his first, one and only indiscretion. So, she knowingly continued her marriage with a cheater and potentially a liar.
Love is not the only thing that keeps people married. Some stay married due to convinience; some due to financial considerations, children etc. I’d put forward a suggestion that she herself did not have a very high self esteem to think that she did not deserve a better man.
It is ridiculous that people have begun to elevate their marriage to be an example of a perfect love union. This is a woman who has made a mistake of her life by remaining married to this man and a man who does not deserve her.
The thing I really don’t understand is WHY aren’t those other players standing up and saying VERY loudly, “No, she DID consent, she WAS a willing participant, and we did NOTHING WRONG”?
In my experience, if I am accused of something I didn’t do, I will defend myself until the cows come home. Very Loudly.
I realise they are probably scared of what may happen to their careers, but surely if they are all able to say categorically what happened (and given that no charges we laid etc), and stand up as honest men, then that must be at least close to the truth.
Even in Matthew Johns’ interview his comments of “she was a willing particpant” seemed half-arsed and shaky. I know he was upset and exhausted, but there was no passion to the statement, no vehemence, no intent. It just sounded like badly coached spin.
But the silence is deafening, and it makes me wonder why….
So Slava, you’re saying she needs to see a psychologist to figure out why she chose to believe her husband above anyone else? The man she chose to spend her whole life with, to have children with? I think that’s simply called trust, not something that requires a psychologist. And there is nothing wrong with that. And if she believed him, it was her choice what to do with that information; and that is certainly not for us to judge. Also, as I have said before, why, exactly, is his version of events any less valid than Clare’s?
Further allegations have been brought forward tonight about Clare, that back up what was said by a former colleague of hers last night. Given that Mia has so far posted on every new development in the case, I was interested to see today that no post was made about what has been claimed about Clare.
Allison – I agree with you that this is an issue in the NRL. However, again I believe it’s a minority ruining it for the majority. That ‘rep star’ who came forward yesterday and stated that it’ll keep happening – all I can say about him is, what an absolute idiot. However, I think issues of degrading treatment towards women and consent are merely reflective of wider society, and heightened by the fame that comes with NRL. It’s a problem we need to confront at a societal level. That being said, should all parties consent and enjoy it, I really don’t have a problem with what people choose to do in their personal sex lives.
degrading and off putting it may be StepfordDreams, but not criminal
I think in general, but in no way directed at you, some people are allowing their moral standards to cloud this issue
You are right Amanda, I did hear Trish say “I would not want her to be my daughter”, not “I would not want it to be my daughter”. I, too, would be surprised if she meant to ‘inject humanity’ into the situation. She has chosen to believe her husband, and it would be very hard to let go of that belief now. As she herself said, the whole past 7 years of marriage has been built on his full disclosure. If that’s taken away, what is left? She needs to see a psychologist herself to figure out why she would chose that for herself.
The reason NRL players treat women like this is that most women influence that treatment. An anonymous NRL player stated that within minutes of entering a club he had 3 offers for sex. What do you expect them to do when the women don’t even have any respect for themselves. I don’t respect that, but you have to consider all sides of the situation
I’m surprised that so many other women here are as repusled as I am. I know that often I am considered the prude amongst my friends…
So many are talking about the wonky moral compass, but are you as revolted by one night stands?
I find the idea of someone willing to have sex with a stranger no less awful than a person willing to have sex with multiple strangers.But I often get the impression here that many women think a one stand is acceptable behaviour.
What makes it any more palatable than sex with several strangers?
To me it is all degrading and off putting.
Rugby Legue men really have the worst attitudes to women. I live in acountry town and even the local club are appauling. One of the young girls I work with nieve and desperate for a boyfriend, marriage and babies only 17 years old went back to a party with the football boys, ended up being taped on a phone giving a head job and it was texted around town. She is shattered, barely experienced in sex and a reputation ruined. Same guys had a “bun” with another young girl, my sister tried to pull her away but she wanted to stay. She was too drunk to know what she wanted. MAJOR regrets the next day. She may sound like a tart but with a history of sexual abuse and the only way of getting attention is wild sexual acts. This abuse just magnified her poor self image and no self worth.
Men need to understand this is taking advantage and is not ok.
Well done, Mia, for adding your comments in this piece. The more influential people voicing their outrage on this matter the better.
Did anyone else know that, in the U.S.A., it is a requirement of all elite sport athletes to have a college degree? Often this is accessible through scholarships, but it is a requirement.
I’m not saying this should be done in Australia, but it certainly gives us some food for thought in light of the uneducated and backtracking nature of rugby league ways of thinking and culture.
Did any one else here Trish Johns correctly when she said about Claire- “I wouldn’t like her to be my daughter”. That is a demeaning comment suggesting she is a tramp. I’m sick of the paper quoating her as simpathetically saying ” I wouldn’t like it to be my daughter”. Totally different meaning to the saint she is made out to be.
Maxine McKew clearly misquoated her
(“Trish Johns got to the heart of it when she said, simply, “I wouldn’t want it to be my daughter.”
“With her words and her expression, we finally got a bit of humanity into this tawdry saga.”)
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,25483279-5001030,00.html
I re listened to the interview to make sure but she did not say or imply that.
It annoys me because she makes this girl out to be a slut but can forgive her huspband.
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing – Edmund Burke’
Posted by: Slava | Friday, May 15, 2009 at 07:09 PM
I think this quote sums up this situation perfectly.
Thank you Slava – for the quote and your post.
I listened today to a very interesting radio interview with an ethics expert. He put forward an argument that our society has lost its moral compass. He gave an example of the way child abuse victims charities and organizations promote their causes. They actually commission economists to prepare reports of taxpayer money-saving benefits of reducing child abuse. E.g. values-driven argument that child abuse is not acceptable and must be fought against does not work for people any more, they need to see what monetary value there’s in order to support the cause.
He contrasted that fact against the fight for the abolition of slavery that happened 200 years ago. There was a time when a society believed in what’s right, not in what’s legal or profitable. The slavery was abolished despite the strong argument outlining that the economy would collapse if that happened.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing – Edmund Burke.
I think what so many Australians are trying to do right now is get back to the values-driven roots of humanity. The police might not have found any crime….However, so many of us feel that 10 extra players coming through the doors of the room where a 19 year old girl laid naked and vulnerable is WRONG. Morally wrong. We feel that Matt Johns doing nothing, stepping away and allowing his mates to continue with the girl is WRONG. A good man, a moral man would have seen the callousness, the cruelty of the situation. Let alone a 30 year old married man.
Those Australians who want to once again become a society driven by our values, not just laws, do not want this man to be held up as a role model, public figure, celebrity.
I have a thought which is NOT a defense of the footballers, but Tracy Grimshaw at one point suggested that Johns should have told this girl that she should reconsider the group sex thing.
So my question is would the girl have listened if someone in that room had taken her from the room to safety?
Nothing against the girl personally , but being empowered sexually seems to have taken the huge tip over into crazy group sex that few can cope with.
Again no judgement on group sex but it seems to be as much a part of our life experience as a party.
Maybe thats the bigger issue, i don’t know ??
@concerned we will never know because she never actually said no – presumably if she had there would have been a criminal xase to answer for in NZ and more pointedly Four Corners would have asked her whether she had said no – it was not in their interests to do so
Cate, I can appreciate your view on this subject. And while I don’t agree, I can see why you sympathise with Matthew Johns.
However, I think there is something bigger here than Matthew Johns.
While the public focus has been on him, the Four Corners report was actually about the code of conduct of the NRL.
No, “bunning” as a bonding exercise is not in the official NRL hand book, however there is a culture within the NRL that breeds this behaviour. And if it is ok for prominent “role models” to do it then others within that group are going to think it is ok too. And that group is all encompassing from staff members, to players, to fans to kids. That a sexual degrading act is OK is a pretty dangerous mentality to be preaching to such a large body.
While this type of group sex may not be legally criminal, there is no question that in most cases it is morally degrading.
The Christchurch group sex was not an isolated incident. Members of the NRL have come out (some anonymously) to say that it goes on now, has gone on in the past, and will continue to go on in the future. That is the issue. Not Matthew Johns.
Arguing over whether or not there was consent, or whether or not she bragged about it, or whether or not it was legal detracts from the main issue.
What type of men (and women) do we want to raise in our society? What sort of behaviour do we want to promote? By allowing influential people to get away with immoral acts (even if they are legal) without consequence is a sure fire way to ensure it continues.
I believe that role models have a greater duty of care than your average Joe. And while in some cases the men may think the girl is “up for it”, surely there would be an underlying sense of “man, she’s gonna regret it in the morning” and if that sense is there and you carry on any way then you shouldn’t be in a position where you can have an influence on young people’s hearts and minds.
This whole situation is beyond disgusting! I think that one of the most frustrating parts of the ACA interview (in which Tracy Grimshaw did a fantastic job) was that Matthew Johns still did not seem to understand the issue. It was not infidelity toward his wife, if she is willing to tolerate that it is between them. What i have a problem with is that how at any point in that situation was he able to watch 12 men line up to have sex with a young women and think this was acceptable and ok is beyond comprehension. He was a senior player in the team, a married man and a father, and he should have known better under any circumstances. However, in saying that i think not only do we as a society need to address the issue of mens lack of respect for women, but also womens lack of respect for themselves. This young women is by means a moral compass. She did willing go back to the room with 2 men, and i am sure she was not expecting to play monolpoly. However she most certainly did not expect 12! If we only address mens morality issues im afraid it wont be enough, we desperately need to start educating young women into protecting themselves emotionally and physically. One night stands and cheap sex will not get you rich successful husband, as sadly i believe some insecure women seem to think. For as far as feminism has come we still have not gone far enough if we dont have young girls and women who feel empowered, assertive and strong enough to say no, mean no and follow through with no, no matter who is asking!
What I want to know, is how did the other plays become involved? Someone obviously made them aware of the situation. She either knew of this before hand, or someone let all the other players know. I imagine a txt (dirty slut up 4 it).
On 4corners they mentioned players were climbing through windows. HELLO!!! What chance did she have?
Concerned – yes you are naive actually, to think that women who hook up with more than one drunk NRL player when the whole team are there and on tour, don’t know what they are potentially getting themselves into.
She bragged about it to her workmates … she wanted to be able to brag that she nailed Matty Johns – and she was prepared to do anything to accomplish that – that’s why she only remembers one name.
Who knows what would have happened if she actually did say no, get up, get dressed and leave … oh wait, we won’t know that will we? cos by her own admission she didn’t even try …
Posted by: Emma | Friday, May 15, 2009 at 03:54 PM
I can think of at least one case where a footballer was fired for sexual scandal reasons, where not only was a law not broken but the police were never even called or involved in any way. Wayne Carey was booted from the North Melbourne Football club following an incident in a bathroom at a party. The difference was that the woman concerned was the wife of one of his teammates, & the rest of the team refused to play with Carey after that.
I haven’t been commenting on this topic because my friends and family have spent a lot of time debating this in the past few days, but boy have I found it interesting to follow everyone’s comments on these NRL posts. It’s SO fascinating to read how differently everyone thinks – love it!
Cate – I just wanted to say that I have agreed with all you’ve said! I see this issue in the exact same way – you’re very eloquent!
Silly me, not to realise, that when having sex with one (or two) partners, I should expect and be prepared to be confronted up to 10 of their ‘mates’ appearing in the room. A single woman, lying naked on a bed in the situation obviously is in control, and would not feel intimidated by the size and sheer number of men confronting her. And these ‘men’ obviously also entered the room respecting her right to say no.
Silly naive me.
Allison, if the issue is not whether it was consensual, why are so many people on here calling an essentially good person who screwed up a rotten rapist?
The NRL as a body does not promote it. It is a minority of players who give the entire code a bad name. I pity David Gallop this week, because he has a hell of a mess on his hand.
Whether it was consensual and whether she bragged about it afterwards are, in fact, a large part of the issue. This week, a man’s entire life has almost been ruined. His children will become targets in the schoolyard. His wife has had to suffer the same pain not once, but twice. If she bragged about it afterwards before deciding, five days later, that she was assaulted, then that is a major issue because what she has come out and said this week has destroyed Matthew Johns.
Furthermore, I don’t believe she was intoxicated. Nowhere in any reports I’ve read has it said she was. She had just finished work. The men were drunk. If she was asking for the sex, then how are drunk men meant to reason she is placing herself in a dangerous situation? And as I said in my previous post, I don’t believe we should expect them to be responsible for her choices.
Matthew Johns made a huge mistake. Ultimately, however, his greatest crime was to his wife. She has been able to move on. I have deep sympathy for Matthew Johns – I’m sorry, but I do. Not for what he did, because he chose to have sex with her. But for what he’s going through now. He is being used as a scapegoat. He has nearly lost everything. I thought his interview with ACA and Phil Gould’s words last night made it clear the toll this has taken on him. Do we expect him to pay forever for making a mistake?
I do empathise with the woman. She has been through hell. I would hazard a guess that she has other problems that don’t stem from what happen seven years ago. And it makes me sad that the situation she found herself in has resulted in her state since then. I hope she can move on. I just don’t think it’s fair that a man’s life has been destroyed in the process, when all he did, by all accounts, was make a mistake.
Well said Cate & Amen to you A Man & Tim McIntyre & Tara – any more want to come out of the woodwork?
Concerned & Lulu : No crime was committed here – this was NOT rape or sexual abuse – Clare was an adult, and as adults we are all responsible for the decisions we make, regardless of how foolish and fearless we are.
I think it’s apalling how many women go straight on the attack when it comes to these types of situations – it makes us seem less credible – honestly ladies, it really does.
Not all women have been brought up with the same morals, beliefs & values as you – some women really are just NRL groupie sluts – being a groupie is nothing new – I bet The Rolling Stones ‘ran a train’ on Bebe Buell.
So many of you jumped to the defence of this ‘poor young girl’ – hell, if she had made a decision to kill someone you wouldn’t be feeling sorry for her – she would be tried as an adult for the decision she made.
Be responsible for your decisions and your actions – ‘Being and Adult 101′
Cate,
It is clear that the police are not taking it any further because no crime was committed.
It is clear that some women (stupidly, I believe) put themselves in that position.
It is also acceptable that some people enjoy group sex. Although, I would hazzard a guess that they are in the minority.
It is not acceptable, however, for a powerful group, such as the NRL to promote a practice that is not only unsafe for it’s participants but also morally degrading to the people involved. All of the people, those acting it out and the person on the receiving end.
Whether or not all participants were consensual, and whether or not “Clare” bragged about it afterwards is of no issue. The act is unsavoury and not a sexual activity that should be encouraged or seen as normal, safe or respectful. To anyone.
These men are looked up to by children and young adults. There is a responsibility to be courteous and respectful at all times.
We create these role models, so we need to insist on how they are to behave.
In my eyes, a positive role model is someone who can look out for other people, even if they are not legally obliged to do so.
If an intoxicated young woman is putting herself into a dangerous situation I would expect a positive role model to help her out of it. Rather than, say “Cool, she’s up for it, it’s legal, no problem”
If they can’t do the decent thing, they have no right to be a role model and should not be appearing on out tv screens as such.
I have been raped twice.
The first time I was “Clare”’s age, I fought back, and was violently and brutally attacked with a knife.
That man was my boss. I had trusted and admired him. The next day, he visited me in hospital and apologised to me, and I was so terrified that I accepted his apology. When the police came to interview me, they told me that my having accepted his apology and having told him that it was “okay” meant that I had a snowball’s chance in hell of winning a rape trial.
The second time, two years later, I was out to dinner with a family friend in Los Angeles. He was driving me back to my hotel when he stopped, pulled me out of the car and into his house and raped me.
I did not scream. I did not speak. I was frozen with terror and convinced that I was going to die.
It’s all about the balance of power. I knew that I had no chance of fighting back against this man who was much bigger and stronger than me.
I convinced myself that I had been on a “bad date” and tried not to use the word “rape” as I simply had to block out the events in order to survive. I also blamed myself for getting into his car.
Of course, I WAS raped. And I was in NO WAY to blame. And getting into a family friends’ car is not an invitation to being raped.
“Clare” may well have had the same reaction to her ordeal. She may well have tried to cope with the horror that she felt by finding excuses in order to “normalise” the incident. She may have blamed herself for going to a hotel room with 2 men. And it may have taken her, as it did me, years to realise that until she acknowledged it, it would destroy her self-image, self-confidence and ability to cope with the world at large.
Matthew Johns may regret what happened in that Christchurch hotel room, but he has no understanding, obviously, of the true impact of his actions upon “Clare”. And personally, I think the most disgusting thing that he did was walk out of the room and leave his mates to it.
I did not press charges against either of my rapists. Most rape victims don’t. When you are a victim of rape, you are often left feeling degraded, worthless and totally without value. How can a person who feels that way expect society to stand behind her? Our society still looks for ways to blame the victim in these situations. Especially when the accused is a national sporting hero.
It’s all about the balance of power. During and after the act.
How dare Channel 9 or anyone else act as the morality police and condemn a man for NOT BREAKING any law, SEVEN years ago. As mentioned, the police were involved, and no charges were laid as there was no law broken. As his wife said, it is between her and her husband- no one else’s business! Matthew Johns should, and has every right to take legal action against Channel 9 for his unfair dismissal.
I believe there are two parts to this incident. The behaviour was unacceptable and the standing down of Matthew Johns was exactly right.
However, I too have first hand seen the way some women throw themselves at these players and the disgusting way they blatently offer sexual acts to these players. When I was growing up I was taught that you do not allow yourself to be put into a situation where you could be treated so terribly. Its called self respect. How much respect are you asking for if you go back to a motel with two men? The NRL needs to stop these players from having the opportunity to take women back to their rooms but as women we too need to stop allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of.
Thanks TRS, Tim and Tara for supporting me – it’s hard to be neutral/different when people are as passionate as they have been on this. And like Tara said, it’s good to see you back, TheRealSydney!
A Man, above, makes a good point when he said ’should he have been responsible for her decisions?’. No, he, and they, shouldn’t have been. If, as Matthew Johns says, she was saying yes and asking for more, do you expect them to decline her? She went up to the room. If a sober girl is saying yes to a group of drunk men, I think it’s unfair to expect them to be the rational ones in the situation.
Kyra, the reason many are disregarding what Clare’s workmate said (and, probably, the reason Mia hasn’t posted on that new devlopment) is because it would challenge them to admit there may be more than one side to this story. So many people have been so incredibly one-sided with this. As I have said previously, Johns has been tried and found guilty by the public and the media.
I thought the opening of The Footy Show last night was brilliant. Did anyone watch it? Of course Phil Gould and Fatty were upset – they are not only colleague, but close personal friends of Matthew Johns. If the story Matthew Johns tells us is true, then they have every right to be upset on his behalf – I would if it was one of my friends. I think Phil Gould’s account of how Matthew and Trish Johns are handling this spoke volumes.
I’d also like to ask people to reconsider before calling it rape. Four Corners steered clear of doing this. Even Clare herself never called it this – Four Corners was very vague when looking at whether or not it was consensual. Calling immoral but consensual rape is slander and demeaning to those who truly have been raped. The police investigation at the time – which sounds like it was very thorough – found nothing illegal occurred. And therefore, the greatest crime ultimately committed by Matthew Johns was infidelity – and that’s between he and his wife.
I hope that all those affected by this – and that is both Matthew and Trish Johns and Clare – are able to move through this.
Posted by: Concerned | Friday, May 15, 2009 at 02:08 PM
Exactly.
Thanks Tara – I’ve been so busy at work and dealing with some anger isssues !! but I’m back for a couple days then off on hols for a couple weeks – hopefully the holiday will help me to ‘breathe’ !! hahaha
Hi Mia,
People are naive if they think other sports groups dont have sex scandels. League is what sells the papers, nobody would buy a paper with a “Water Polo Sex Scandel” on the cover. Its the same reason Matthew Johns was named instead of Brett Furman, because the Matthew Johns headline sells papers.
If she was a man in a team full of netballers, It woould be different. If she was a pornstar in a room full of men, it would be different.
Would it be different if she was 30 at the time?
Would it be different if they weren’t footballers?
Would it be different if none of the extra men walked in?
Because before they did she was having a threesome with 2 men. Accepable?
Is that fine for her…a woman’s perogative?
Is it the female being objectified or the men in this case, because the only judgement is being passed on them, in particularly Matt Johns, who had consensual sex.
Should he have been responsible for her decisions?
The opposite of misogyny is misandry and misandry seems to be a lot more acceptable.
Racism is not
Sexism is not
Yet, many woman here think that it is ok to judge a sport by the MINORITY actions of a few.
That is prejudice and in this case sexist.
I also find it disturbing the anger that is being directed toward the girl involved that is coming from women. Do people forget how young, foolish and fearless that they were at that age, before wisdom and a sense of self preservation came to them. I read once something that resonated with me. Women are more likely to make judgements on other women involved in rapes or sexual assaults than men are. The subconscious thought, that if there was something about the girl/woman, how she was dressed, how she was acting, or something she did to ’cause’ the act, then it would never happen to them, because they wouldn’t do that, or put themselves in that situation. To admit that this young woman, could have naively found herself in a situation that got out of her control, and was subjected to this ordeal is horrifying to most people, male or female. That this woman could easily have been you is terrifying.
Tim, Cate and TheRealSydney…you aren’t alone!
Cate, thank you for putting forward your point of view in such a sensible, balanced and fair way.
It takes a lot more courage to take a step back from the emotions and evaluate the topic before commenting. It is way too easy to jump on the hate bandwagon and denounce Matthew and the NRL.
TheRealSydney – so pleased to see you back! We missed you!
Great post Mia, im glad you took the chance to voice your opinion and I totally agree! I am not a of NRL but i do know football plays a major part in Australian culture and society and these boofs need to know that they have a stream of young fans looking upto them!
im actually glad that the media is brining to light all the negative stories about NRL players lately and even though Im sure all the players are not like that, it still needs to be addressed as being an issue and dealt with!
im actually very suprised that its mainly girls throwing abuse at the young girl involved – shocked and disgusted?!
I read in the paper today about ‘Clare’ boasting about sleeping with NRL players to her mates, which made me cross as all me sympathy went to her and a lot of anger towards Matty and the other players. I feel that her story may have changed over the last 7 years. I know what the players did was so wrong. But should she take some of the blame? TheRealSydney has made some very good points to think about.
Well done RealSydney for straight shooting in a hostile environment and well done to Cate, who once again has displayed nothing but sense and reason. Yes Cate, please continue having an opinion and entertaining both sides of an argument, regardless of how many people attack you on this blog.
I remember it happening to you on the Brett Stewart topic and it’s happening again now, and your opinion deserves respect, just like anyone else here. It’s a shame you feel you have to write those disclaimers, just to keep the hounds at bay.
My opinion is now reserved to the fact that I don’t know what happened on that night and I don’t know if ever I will. I’ve done some pretty stupid things while drunk, that’s for sure. So I won’t judge either side and I’ll keep on watching sport, not it’s personalities.
This type of thing horrifies me and I shudder to think about raising my sweet little girl in what seems like such a sexually perverted society… Maybe I am the last of the prudes.
I heard on the radio this morning that the lady known as ‘Clare’ was said to have boasted about the group sex experience days after the event. Does this change your feelings on the matter Mia?
I am not sure it changes mine. Whether she genuinely enjoys such perverted behaviour or not, those men should not have allowed her to make herself available in that way. There were more them than her.
Footballers or not, 12 brains are better than 1 and as a group they should have had enough collective common sense in the room to realise that any girl who actually wants to be used in that way is obviously not well.
Anyone who boasts about such a filthy act is obviously troubled and needed protection, from herself and her own desires. There were so many of them, surely one should have stopped the rest.
On the other hand I am wondering whether there really are women/ people out there who enjoy consensual group sex like this. I don’t think I know anyone like that but maybe there are girls who are not mentally ill and actually enjoy it?! I guess part of me questions whether it is any of my business…
Whether perhaps this should be an issue left between the men and their wives?
I’m torn. It is all just so revolting to me.
I’m a bit late here BUT anyway, again I find myself siding with Cate – but I feel much more strongly than she does about this issue.
This sexual act that everyone is so up in arms about is called “running a train” – there must be plenty of willing female participants for it to actually get to the point of being named.
‘Clare’ bragged about this for a few days after it happened – then had a case of shame & regret when someone called her a slut & the reality of what she had chosen to do sunk in. She should not be allowed to ruin this mans life, career and reputation 7 years later.
I feel terrible for Matty Johns & his family – he has been used as a scape goat.
His wife does not deserve this one little bit – she knew about it at the time, she didn’t leave him over it – she shouldn’t have to relive it in the god damn media 7 years later OR be judged by women on this site or anywhere else.
As for young girls being victims or needing to protect themselves against NRL Players – all they need to do is stay away from them – it’s very simple. They don’t club women over the head and drag them back to their rooms.
I will use my daughter as an example – she was out a few weeks ago in a club – and a very well known, very rich, very good looking, young Wests Tigers player approached her (she had no idea who he was until her friends told her) – as soon as she found out he was a NRL Player she said something along the lines of “thanks for the interest, but I’m not your type”
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE when will you all realise that these girls know they are putting themselves in a risky situation & by doing so, they accept the risk associated.
In an interesting co-incdence (maybe too lateral), last night I was online and an ad featureing Fatty Vautin popped up in the side bar – an ad for a law firm?! Handy?
What I found disturbing on the 4C program was the scene where footballers were taking a class that attempted to teach respect for women. After watching a filmed scenario, one of the players said that the girl in the film was “flirting with both guys”, as though to justify the acts of the fictional football character who secretly came out of his room and sent his friend in his place.
I think this illuminates a big problem with the consent argument, and with the NRL’s attempts to take a unified stance in regards to this epidemic of degrading behaviour. For legal purposes, the notion of consent is grey enough, but what’s worse is that these players, and some other males in society no doubt, seem to possess a ’slippery-slope’ understanding of consent, being that if a woman says ‘yes’ to one thing, she says ‘yes’ to everything. The Catch-22 in trying to debunk this logic is that if you try to tell these players that flirtation, provocative clothes or going back to a player’s room do NOT equal consent, then you end up with players filming women on their phones giving their consent to sex, for the sole purpose of protecting themselves from litigation. It reduces the idea of consent to a totally arbitrary verbal exchange, and discounts the circumstances of the situation which may have coercive effects on a woman.
However, if we try to impress the idea that there are inherent power imbalances within these kinds of interactions, that players’ concern should extend far beyond whether the girl is screaming ‘no’ or saying ‘yes’, are we not then leading men to interpret the tonal undercurrent of a woman’s actions as well as her words, the very thing that the footballer in the doco was trying to do, however incorrectly, when he concluded that the girl inferred consent through flirting?
Perhaps for this reason, the NRL has struggled to truly verbalise its stance. I saw an interview in which David Gallop was asked if he thought that the incident 7 years ago was wrong and he replied with a firm “yes”. When asked if the NRL condones such behaviour he replied with an equally firm “no”. While he was no-doubt trying to be unequivocal, he needs to expand on exactly what behaviour the NRL doesn’t condone, specifying what about the incident was unacceptable, so that players can be guided by this. Otherwise they risk remaining stuck in their current loop of condoning bad behaviour as it is made public, rather than pre-emptively identifying EXACTLY what is expected of the players and putting a stop to the incidents themselves. The problem is that I’m not sure that the NRL does know that they don’t condone, only that they know it when they see it.
Sigh, I don’t know, perhaps the Code just needs to stop debating the morality of group sex and the liberties and rights of those who choose to partake in it, and try to identify and condone any sex where mutual respect is not present. Of course, more than one player has commented that if you treat a girl nicely after sex and give her money for a cab home, this amounts to being respectful and avoids problems with the girl going public in the future. I instinctively feel like this isn’t enough, that players should really and intuitively give a crap about the feelings of women, not merely give them a cab fare to avoid future bad publicity, but how do you legislate the thoughts in a persons’ head?
I don’t know…
Write to the Sharks telling them we want all the names so that they do not support/protect this behavior.
Sharks Administration
sharks@sharks.com.au
kb – spot on with your comments.
Its scares the beejeezus out of me to think about raising a girl through the teenage years. Im sure it scared my parents too, but things just seem so full on right now for teenagers/young women.
Having children is in my near future and I think about this issue alot and worry about how I would teach my daughter self esteem and values to guide her. Now I understand my parents paranoia!
A few things about this issue stand out to me.
Firstly, given that the police have decided not to go further with the investigation, and given the key perpetrator’s “impression” that the girl was a willing participant. I would say that we are not dealing with a question of consent. Which means that, effectively, the law was not broken.
Plenty of people have unsavoury sexual inclinations that are not illegal and are free to carry on with them.
However, the fact that group sex is a revered activity in this particular sporting culture is particularly alarming.
Sport is so often seen as a character building activity. We encourage our children to become involved in sport so that they learn the wonderful qualities of fair play, team participation and leadership. The fact that the rugby league (and I wonder how many other codes) uses it’s position of respect and authority in society and the very qualities we are supposed to admire to promote such sordid activities is, quite frankly, a very frightening thought.
Consider this, you have a 15 year old son who is friendly, outgoing, courteous and appears to have a general respect for all members of society. Say he excels at sport and becomes involved in his local rugby leagues club and is exposed to the high profile staff and players that we are talking about here. You are quite pleased that he is learning about mateship and that he has some legendary people to look up to and mentor him. Now, imagine that these same legendary people are instilling in him a new code of conduct, one where the idea of your team and your mates supercedes the general qualities of respect to all people. As long as you are doing it for the team, then it doesn’t matter how correct it is. Imagine club “endorsed” activities involve rampant sexual behaviour and your 15 year old son who is going through puberty probably has sex on his mind 24 hours a day. Do you think he is not going to be swayed by his peers and mentors? If they reckon it is alright to behave in a certain way, do you think your son is going to stop and think that what they are doing is wrong when all these “legends” say that it is right?
I couldn’t care less that Matthew Johns the person carries on with this behaviour. That is his problem.
I do care that Matthew Johns the personality does so.
I do care that respected members of that code promote a culture of no regard for anyone except themselves. Where gang bangs have their own endearing nick names.
If this were a one off incident I don’t think there would be such outrage. The fact that players and staff members say that is is normal and even insinuate that it will still go on regardless, disgusts me. Or even try to defend the behaviour with terms such as “gladiator”.
I hope the public outrage teaches some people some lessons. Not just to the men that get involved, but also to the women who might think they would like to have a whole football team fall at their feet. Perhaps it won’t be as pleasurable an experience as they thought.
Why are people ignoring the fact that we’ve had a former co-worker of Clare’s come forward and state that she was bragging about the incident?
This has been a fascinating and wide ranging discussion to follow. I am particularly interested in the progression in to an analysis about young women and their self esteem. This is a really important issue and worthy of its own discussion. I think it begins with the marketing to “tweens” of adult images (Miley Cyrus anyone?)and the over emphasis on appearance, make up and hair styles. What happened to innocent childhood? IT then steps up to a soft porn level wtih the likes of Britney and the videos and movies that very young girls are exposed to. I don’t think I even knew what a threesome was until I was in my 20’s (and I promise I wasn’t a complete prude) but this and other fairly explicit terms are now used liberally in many magazines/shows/radio discussions. Even this recent incident has led to discussion of “group sex” and “gang bangs” which no doubt has been listened to by very young women. Young women are bombarded by these sexualised images and somehow believe this is a form of post-feminist “girl power” which empowers them – but in actual fact, it seems many young women are still seeking “love” through “sex” but the sex may now be with more than one partner at a time, or giving blow jobs at parties, or in other potentially quite dangerous scenarios. I work in education and I know of girls filming themeselves with their boyfriends and distributing their own sex tapes! These young, vulnerable girls are seeking notoriety, acceptance and love but they make decisions that taint their reputations and do untold damage to their self esteem. Other girls and guys turn on them and they are labelled “slut” etc as you can well imagine. How do we encourage women of all ages to value and respect themselves more highly? How do we reverse this worrying trend? Open discussion and pressure on the media to change images? Education? Parenting?
What’s disgusting is that he was married at the time just goes to show what type of person he is.
What did he think was going to happen? he was a high profile player in the media eye that did something completely inexcusable and now alot of people are saying “poor Matty Johns”. I think he got what he deserved.
Let this be a lesson to all the other guys out there NRL players or not that this behaviour won’t be tolerated, show some bloody respect.
Where did the gentlemen in this world go?, it seems to be a dying race.
I have to say that in general I cant stand the way rugby legue players treat women. I grew up in an area with a big rugby league culture and the attitude towards females is disgraceful. I know this isnt the case with all players, but this attitude flows down the ranks from the professional players right through to the local club players.
That said, I also know the way plenty of females act towards these players is disgraceful.
I think the problem lies in both sides. In the rubgy players degrading attitude towards women and also young women believing the these players are the ultimate catch, even if it is for one night.
Its not a popular view and it would be alot easier to blame the rugby players solely at this point. With regards to this particular incident, it sickens me to think about these men laughing and joking about the event the next day.
However, I also would love to talk sense into these young women who believe that football players are something to strive for. I have seen young girls throw themselves at players and allow themselves to be treated in a way which they would not allow with other men.
What I find so astounding about the public reaction to this story is that it is precisely what stops women from coming forward when sexually assaulted. It was discussed in The Code of Silence and women have made it clear that they do not press charges when it happens because they are not simply taking on one man; they are taking on the entire club, its fans and the public. Looking at this and drilling down into it you can start to understand how this culture seems to fester, and why Kate Milligan may not be pressing charges against Greg Bird, why in around 40 claimed cases of sexual assault against NRL players there has not been a single conviction- it all starts to make sense. This is what I find most disturbing about this story. Reading the comments made by various people in various forms of media, and hearing the amount of abuse that ‘Clare’ has copped for coming forward is despicable. To me, it is clear that society needs a bit of an attitude readjustment as well as the NRL players before this can stop.
Apologies if this (or anything similar) has already been said, but it seems that group sex is really not that effective as a “bonding” experience- given that there were reportedly around 12 men involved in the Christchurch incident and they are leaving their “mate” to take all the blame.
there has been a lot of criticism of ‘Clare’ but i personally wish i could shake her hand & thank her for what she has done. While i disapprove of one of her motives – revenge – i think what she has done has provoked an extremely important discussion, hopefully forced many people (myself included) to examine their attitudes & behaviour & consider how these may affect others, & has caused our society to confront this issue. I know I personally wouldn’t have had the guts to do what she has done in coming forward & I have so much respect & admiration for her because of it. Good on her.
thank god i’ve never been attracted to footy players but i know when i was 19 i didn’t have the confidence to say ‘no’ to sex i didn’t want, if i’d already kissed a guy & felt i’d led him on. if i was in Clare’s position at that age i know i would have been too shocked & embarrassed to put a stop to what was going on when the other guys entered the room. i too would have devastated & traumatised by it.
It really isn’t good enough that we sit in silence and allow such public condemnation of women “being silly enough to put themselves in that situation”. When I was young and silly almost two decades ago I went to a footy party with my mates from school and there was in a room a “gang bang” I got out of there so fast I left a jet stream but later worried about the girl involved and if it was consensual (possibly not) this is a multi-generational issue and it needs for all women to stand up and say no more.
Gosh Vanessa, how right you are. We live in a men’s world where unfortunately attitude to exercising power of one gender over the other is dictated by the nature and biology of male and female. So our ‘intelligence’ supposedly is what separates us from animals, but are we really that different? This is horrifying. Did anyone here watch The Footy Show last night? How screwed up was that? Why cry for Matt Jones? Who will cry for the abused girl?
Mia,
Thank you so much for doing more than one post on this topic. I no longer live in Australia and though I keep up with the news back home it was not until I read your blog that I truly comprehended what had happened with this scandal. My friend tracked down the 4 corners program on Youtube for me and I watched it last night. I was appalled. Utterly appalled. It makes me want to do something to help but I have no idea what I’m meant to do.
I applaud you for putting yourself out there by allowing your comments to appear in the article.
Stacey I think you really have something there. Are we as women not doing exactly what we have been accusing the men of NRL of doing? By thinking that this is purely a male problem and hoping that the problem with many of our young women will just fix themselves? Are we not missing the opportunity of delving much deeper into a society that in general portrays women as sexual objects? If this is the ‘opportunity’ to teach a generation of young footballers respect for women then isn’t it also an opportunity for a generation of mothers and daughters? Do we not need to look at how these young girls have no self esteem or love for themselves? Where is the parenting? Why are we not putting our hands up and saying ‘OK something is really wrong here’, in an age where girls text images of themselves to friends (for want of another word) masturbating or using foreign objects in their most private parts for all the world to see. Can we not band together to lobby for simple changes such as to TV soaps which have teenage girls kissing several different boys in the course of one week and dressing in school uniforms that look like they belong in the back pages of the Telegraph? They are constantly bombarded with the sexual images of celebrities in magazines and on television from such a very young age. No one is teaching them to respect themselves and their bodies. Where is the intervention for girls who are offered no guidance at home or worse are abused at the hands of those they should be able to trust – and its seems that this is more and more young girls. We should use the anger and disgust to take a good look,we have shown from this that as one voice we can be very powerful or otherwise it really will be all for nothing…
I hope his wife dumps his a$$.
Yes, I do put disclaimers in, Disgusted, because I’ve been misunderstood before. No, I do not condone his behaviour. He cheated on his wife. He was involved in a degrading act.
However, am I not allowed to have a different opinion to everyone else on this site? There’s a lot of passion here, mostly in the woman’s favour. Is it so bad to have someone trying to partially defend not neccessarily his actions, but him as a person? And is it so incredibly difficult to believe that maybe there is more than one side to this story?
It is possible to have conflicting opinions on a topic such as this. Matthew Johns has, in effect, been tried and found guilty by the public, and none of us really know what happened that night. I understand that some people have very passionate opinions in favour of the woman. All I have done is offered a different perspective, while empathising with the woman.
I don’t see why I should be criticised for trying to see both sides of the argument.
Cate – you have always argued in favour of Matty Johns despite all your funny worded disclaimers: “I don’t condone the team’s/Matt Johns behaviour BUT” – yeah right.
“I’m not racist BUT”
“I’m not sexist BUT”
Just to balance things up: the boss of the Racecourse Hotel spoke in favour of her. The investigating detective spoke in favour of her.
The comment I’d like to make relates not so much to this particular incident with its associated balance of power issues, but rather to the predatory behaviour exhibited by some women towards high profile sports stars.
Please let me say in no way do I condone, excuse or in any way support the behaviour of the NRL players in this specific case. Nor do I assert that such behaviour was exhibited by the woman in this case.
I just wish to say that I think there is a real problem in our society in that some young women feel the need to validate themselves or gain some sort of kudos from having sex with sporting stars.
Perhaps it is a naivety on the part of some who feel once they’ve been shagged once by these men that it will lead to some sort of relationship, perhaps it is a need to reinforce their own attractiveness, perhaps it’s the notch on the bedpost mentality.
It makes me sad to think that these young girls attach such little value to themselves that they feel the need to define themselves by who they have sex with.
Ditto Emma. I know some facts/stories/truths about the Johns brothers and you are right.
I agree that what hapeened was wrong and am in no way condoning what happened, however i’m not so sure that Matt Johns should be copping all the blame. What about the other 12 people who were in the room??
Better yet, why isnt the question being asked: Why is rugby league the only sport where this happens? And why is this fact not dealt with?
I say a HUGE thank you to all the brave women, who in their own way have made a stand against this issue. Mia, using your voice to help end these disturbing acts is something to be very proud of. Thank you.
Hi all,
please join my Facebook group “Matthew Johns was served justice” if you, like I, find it incredible that so many people, especially women, would come forward with comments like “that sl*t deserved it”.
All I can say is that no-one I know in Newcastle (I live in Newcastle) is ever surprised by the bad behaviour of the Johns brothers.
They have been banned from numerous clubs due to their disgraceful behaviour and it came as no surprise to see Andrew Johns caught with illegal drugs.
The way they treat women when I’ve seen them out drinking is disgusting. I was hit on by Andrew Johns when I was 16 and wearing my school uniform! This was one afternoon after school at a cafe. And I believe he was married at that time.
But as for the incident being discussed at the moment, I just don’t know why it has come to light now, seven years later. And I wonder how many other indiscressions Matty Johns has actually told his wife about?
I actually feel sorry fo Matty John’s children most of all.
So true. I think the point of this whole devastating situation is that we the public are not necessarily disputing the consent. The issue here is the group sex involvement. Whether she consented, asked for it, or made incorrect judgements, she was too young, and clearly too overpowered to make any decisions. I think everyone on the “support Matty side” is angry at the young woman for coming forward and I too witnessed a woman in my office say that the girl was asking for it and it’s all her fault. I am shocked that a woman would have this stance. I do believe there are women out there who seek fame and fortune, WAGs in some form or other, as displayed by the particularly unsavoury lass in the Four Corners programme, but this still doesn’t mean it’s right. These guys are put on a pedastal. They’re paid damn good money to be role models to our young men. They’re not. I for one hope my son never plays the game as I believe it’s a mentality that won’t soon be admonished.
There is a lovely group on Facebook at the moment called “Support Matty Johns” one member left the comment “dirty bitch loves cock” There are other lovely messages too. Just shows the type of people who will think this behaviour is acceptable and the girl was asking for it. It is so scary that some young guys think it’s cool to treat women like that.
The thing is GeorgiaSweet, I thought it was abundantly evident on the interview that he is a wrecked man. He did express sympathy for how it has hurt the woman, for what it’s done to her – and I personally think it would be very cynical to say he doesn’t mean it. But it was clear what the event has done to him. Someone today commented that, after watching the show, they were more worried about his suicidal tendencies than hers. After seeing the state he was in, I don’t think he was in any position to make in-depth comments on it. And IF, as he says, the woman consented and was keen for it, then why should he be too upset for anyone other than himself? The woman herself said on Four Corners she wanted to destroy him. If what he says is true, then she has effectively achieved that destruction. (Just quickly, GeorgiaSweet, I’d also like to thank you – we’ve had differing opinions on this matter, so thank you for respecting that and responding to me in a civil manner. Topics like this don’t always make that respect easy).
Did anyone else catch on Nine News earlier this evening the brief interview with a former colleague of Clare’s? Where she said she bragged about it afterwards? And even the people of Christchurch support Johns. More and more doubt is being cast on Clare’s version of events. I don’t doubt the incident caused her pain – but isn’t it possible, given that Johns said she consented, given her workmate’s claims, given that even the police reports found no evidence of sexual assault, that maybe Matthew Johns is actually being honest and she consented to everything? Or are we so cynical as to say that no, only she can be telling the truth?
I was once attacked in a park by one man at 6.30am while I went on my morning walk. I was thrown onto the ground and he got on top of me.I didn’t scream, I felt like I was having an out of body experience. I was scared,shocked and in total disbelief that what was happening – was actually happening. Luckily for me, he got freaked out when he thought that someone was coming and he got off me and ran away. I am not comparing the situations directly – as they have obvious differences, however I can completely understand how ‘Claire’ didn’t object or get up and walk out of the room. All I wanted was to survive what was happening to me, and I would hazard a guess that she did too.
She agreed to sex with 2 men. She did not agree to sex with whoever was up for it in a football team. She did not agree to an audience.
Cate, in fairness we SHOULD all listen to Johns’ side of things.
But I think the generally negative reaction expressed to Johns’ interview with TG on Channel 9 is because he didn’t communicate any deep understanding of the situation outside what it meant for him. He seemed to be repeating a few (rehearsed?) phrases and generally appeared sorry for himself.
I am not opposed to extending him sympathy or empathy. But so far, all I know is that he thinks that the girl was a willing participant and that he doesn’t want anyone to be unduely embarrassed by the incident. These are just surface issues.
But I do think all the other participants should be brought to answer. Not just Johns. That part of it is definitely unfair.
And while TG asked some good questions I had to cringe when she came over all Ray Martin towards the end, with a tone of admonishment. Felt like a visit to the principal’s office. I suspect, though, that this is the house style for ’serious issues’ at Channel 9…
Why do people keep referring to the fact that she did not cry out a ‘no’?
How can one be so insensitive as not to appreciate that she was in an extremely vulnerable, intimidating, demoralising situation. She was a naive teenager, she was already having sex with the two of them, perhaps she did not yet have enough confidence and maturity to understand that she had a right to say no. Perhaps, when others entered, she was so petrified and ashamed and confused that the only thing she could to is to shut her eyes and disconnect from the situation.
Abused children often do not say ‘no’. It is still a crime, because an adult is in a position of absolute power, and a child is often too terrified of disapproval to say ‘no’. She was hardly different from a child, only 19, in a company of 12 masculine, strong, intimidating, synical men…She probably just did not have a slightest idea what to do….And all those much older, like Johns, took advantage of that power imbalance.
I have one last comment on this issue. Matthew Johns presented his side of the story last night; and EVERY story, regardless of what Four Corners wanted us to believe, has two sides. Almost every comment on here has scorned the interview. What makes his side any less valid? Is it because he is a male? Or because he’s a footballer? Either way, we don’t know for sure what happened that night. Something else interesting is that Four Corners never asked the woman if she said no out loud. They avoided that very carefully. I’m not denying that the event affected her severely – in my other comments on this matter, I make it clear I do sympathise with the woman, and believe he did the wrong thing.
As for the consent issue – I still believe that is a reflection of wider society, not NRL culture.
I say “THEY” just don’t GET IT!
It is about the abuse of power. Plain and simple.
Put each of him/each of them in a room with (say) 11 buzzed-up burly, bikers and see them try to say no to what they have on offer.
OR
or have them attend a session with the brilliant http://www.janeelliott.com/ to truly get a handle on what being powerless feels like
A 19 year old saying yes to sex with 2 men before the event I feel is consent. Having sex with 2 men in the one encounter is not a fantastical idea and does not feel unsafe or wrong to me.
The issue of 10 other men coming in on this encounter without the prior approval of the 3 original members destroys the ’safety’ of the situation and destroys any trust. There is no possible consent to having 10 ‘mates’ of the 2 men invade your intimate space.
I think the 10 men who entered the room are completely disgusting in thinking that it is OK. And for the original 2 to allow the mates to join in in any way, this is despicable.
So Mike (p2 of these comments): Do you think we should all stop talking about this for the sake of the children?
I’ve got a better idea: maybe he just shouldn’t have done it for the sake of the children.
I think this is valid even if those children didn’t exist at the time. Everyone has to accept that all actions (good and bad) can come back to you at any time.
Also, that ‘I didn’t break any law’ argument is flawed. It is not a black and white case of ‘inside law = good’ and ‘outside law = bad’.
That is why the concept of ethics exists. Regretfully, Johns and his cohorts that night lacked ethics.
How could you not be sorry for his wife? All she did was love and trust her husband.
You don’t know the intricacies of their relationship. So many assumptions in your post, many horrible things too. Trish Johns did nothing wrong – I can’t understand why you have contempt for her.
She has her own reasons for staying in the relationship, all of which are none of our business.
All those footy wooty players are patently latent homosexuals
Ian … I totally agree with your comment earlier.
It has bothered me since watching 4 corners
that M.Johns felt the need to apologise after the fact. The only reason he would have apologised to “Clare”
is because he knew that what went on in that room was wrong…….and he did nothing to stop it…at any time….
I was watching ACA with my husband we couldnt believe Tracey did not ask him that question.
I believe most in the quote about ‘behaving like decent men’. Decent – it’s such a powerful word and I wish more men had that going on in their heads and hearts. Just be decent.
I can see that my last comment above might look like I am defending the players. And I want to clarify that I definately am not. What they did was so wrong on so many levels.
What I was trying to say is that if the NRL covered up antics like this in the past, and continue to let players go unpunished like they have been, then no wonder their ‘educational’ programs haven’t worked. Re-education is going to need to start at the top.
I have also been distressed to read some blog comments (mainly from other WOMEN) today! Obviously many of them had not even seen the Four Corners interview, as they asserted that the victim was doing it all for fame/money; and focused on why it was coming out 7 years later; and seemed to accept without question that she was a “willing participant”. Women will continue to hide and not tell people about sexual abuse and poor treatment if they feel that the community will condemn them if they do so. SO what if there are girls in the community that like to dress up and go out and flirt with footballers? And so what if some of these girls have sex with these footballers? What link does that have to expecting those same footballers to treat any woman they sleep with in a respectful and dignified way? This idea that maybe if the footballers could think of it as their daughter/sister/wife they might improve their behaviour annoys me to as it is pandering to their very small view of the world. They should just think of the women they involve themselves with as ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. That is, they should think outside of themselves and their own gratuitous (homeo-erotic)desires and be real man and stand up and stop this sort of thing from happening. The excuse that they are “high performers” and “under pressure” is laughable! If emergency surgeons, CEOS of companies, presidents of countries and leaders of armed forces carried on like this during work trips WE WOULD CONDEMN IT. Surely they work under far more pressure and make far more important decisions than NRL players – yet they don’t use this as an excuse for misogynistic, selfish, aggressive and ABUSIVE behaviour(abusing their position and status by their conduct). I am fuming!
One thing I know for sure – I am not sorry for Matt’s wife. One thing is infidelity. Another is a 30 year old husband participating in a gang bang of a 19 year old with 11 of his mates. Perhaps I would find some love and forgiveness in my heart to forgive my husband for having an affair…but for him to be a misogynistic, repulsive, immoral random cheater would be reason enough to become my ex husband. The only reason he told her was the potential police involvement. If the girl was all bright and cheery after the session, he would not have got the cold feet the next day. Obviously, a person joining an orgy so easily did not cheat for the first time…What was different then? His guilt over what happened to the girl. He LET IT HAPPEN to her. He invited her upstairs; he had responsibility for her care. Basic moral code for a man. He is clearly a disgusing, immoral moron…For her to have stood by him, she must be either of the same moral fabric herself, or she simply treasured life of privilege and wealth more than being married to a honest, loyal, good man.
One question I would like to ask – is surely the NRL knew about the incident when it happened 7 years ago? One of their teams was being investigated by police, so I find it hard to believe that they would not have been made aware of it. Why was no action taken then?
No wonder the NRL is in such a mess. I find it so hard to keep up with their stance when only a few months ago a player was actually charged with an offence and the NRL took no action. But now, only a few months later, they have done a backflip. Where is the consistency? And how are players mean’t to understand?
I understand where people like Bugmum are coming from when they say this debate can make you feel a bit tired. To some extent the same derogatory stereotypes of young women ‘throwing themselves’ at defenseless footballers are rolled out, clouding the issue at the heart of the matter which is, what does it mean to consent? Matthew Johns certainly seems to have no idea on this point.
But on the other hand I’m so encouraged by some of the media treatment of the issue this time around. Caroline Overington and Amanda Meade’s reporting has been outstanding, and Tim’s post on the first page made my day. A few years ago when the Bulldogs incident at Coffs Harbour first came to light the debate in the mainstream media was far less nuanced and tended to focus on the graphic details of the assult to the point of voyeurism. In short I’m so glad you made your contribution to the debate Mia!
It’s probably true that the NRL has done more than any other code to address the toxic aspects of its culture, but it seems way too early for Matt Franklin to be implying that the job is done.
maybe she did ‘consent’ but I reckon she felt she had to because that is how the system worked.
This male domination of how we live our lives, for me, is so much more widespread than sport. I forever feel uncomfortable in meetings having to sum up my point of view in a 30 sec sound bite because the men at the table can’t bear the nuances/details. Ok no where near as humiliating or upsetting, but another example of how we go against what feels right for us to ‘fit’ within this male system.
I love the fact Mia praises all the women who have taken a stand – lets celebrate them vs. give any more air time to the men
Hi Mia, I am a fan of your work but honestly how can you admire ACA and Tracey and these other women ‘journalists’ for their reports??? Tracy is a bully at best and as a previous commenter put it ‘hides behind media privilege’.I felt she was very disrespectful of Johns’ wife in asking him to describe intimate details of the sex act, that is not reporting… plus why did she not ask him what you have said in your article? For example why does he not seem to understand the nuances of consent? or that he is role model for the next generation footballers and by participating in this sort of activity that younger players will think it is ok to not only cheat on ones wife but act in such a gross manner??
You are right, as he does not get it but he is product of the system, not onlyof the NRL but professional sports in general. I lived in the UK for almost a decade just recently and these sorts of stories are called ‘kiss and tells’ are pretty much a weekly newspaper event complete with mobile phone pictures and no one really bats an eyelid about it as the overall feeling in that woman over the age of 18 are considered adults and therefore responsible for their actions. Whilst what happened in not in any way right but then again it happens everywhere not even just professional sports and it does leave me feeling with extreme sorrow for genuine victims of sexual assault.
Rebecca Wilson was a guest on Nova Brisbane morning show today and showed herself to be anything but a serious and intelligent sports journalist by hanging up mid interview after throwing a tantrum when one of the morning (female) hosts took offence to Rebecca stating that she was condoning sexual assault by sticking up for Johns’ behaviour. Something I think NZ police would find interesting as they found no case in the claim. I am disappointed that you revere such ignorance in this “woman”??
ann f …as i said before i dont think it is a rugby league problem, more a australian youth/male problem. I attend football training with my six year old twice a week and everyone i speak to there is nothing but respect for all of us mums. We have young girls playing football and even teenage girls refereeing. I was reluctant for my son to play, but I am really enjoying the nice family style community that we have been welcomed into.Please dont judge rugby league overall – I think like in every sport, culture, ethnicity etc you find good and bad… I am proud to watch my little boy ( who by the way is extrememly smart) go out and play every week and if he turns out a thug going out getting drunk etc then the person I will blame most is me – his mother – for not raising him correctly…not the rugby league community.
perhaps there is no name attached to the article, because it was elaborated or made up…not to say all journalists make stuff up…and who knows someone may have really said this..but i have long given up believing everything i read in a newspaper is factual.
she was a consenting member.
who cares.
I’ve always wondered why some women are attracted to these thugs? Their ‘appeal’ is totally lost on me. Perhaps it’s a power thing – they earn lots of money and adoration. To me, they’re Scum-Dog Millionaires.
‘It’s all Greek to me’ – Nice article Annabel. Funny and so true
I have watched both the four corners report, and the ACA interview last night… and have come up with a few conflicting points of view… but some that other people dont seem to see.
I think that, as shocking as it is, group sex is in our culture. Not only in our culture but it is a recognised fantasy of both men and women in most cultures. Seek out any porn film, sex shop, even women’s magazines talk about a sexy scandalous threesomes, frank novels such as A Bride Stripped Bare talks about the similar fantasies.
I also believe that girls of a certain age, testing their boundaries of sexuality and how they feel they appear attractive to men, seem to see this as more appealing. I also believe that a women in her late 20’s would have a different outlook. The kiwi girl, may have felt ‘willing’ for those two footy players, perhaps wooed by alcohol and her interest in the team, and perhaps enough so, and curious enough for even more of the players. We actually will not know for sure unless we were in that room. Most of us have experienced it, those one night stands that can be regretted the next day, even drunken kisses that seem silly in the harsh hungover morning light. I do feel for her, however, and how this decision has affected her.
I also think, that yes, they may have acted in a group mentality, making it hard to say no, but lets not ignore the fact of how young some male players are. They are put up as big gorillas preying on ‘young’ girls who, actually, are often the same age. Also, an unwilling person would seem distressed, perhaps start crying, seem unwilling to take another ‘partner’,.
Not to say I don’t think that footballers engaging in group sex, with a consenting adult is ok? I think this is really odd. Thats the most i can get out of it – odd and a little homoerotic. Its distressing they have recognized the constant sexual advances on footy players from women and turned it into a group training exercise.
I also think the main thing to address is the attitude of women in society and yes, especially in the NRL. Bringing up the issue of age again, most boys under the age of 23 i have heard in response to this have sided with matthew johns, and most over 23 have, it seems had wives or girlfriends or life experience to not be interested in group sex, or whatever,empathize more with the woman. Young mens point of views seem to need education. Or is it simply that immaturity of young players with fame and power is put on the worlds stage.
The story of the young player assaulting the girl in (bathurst?) is horrible. she in no way invited him into her room, and it was discraceful he entered it. It shows that there needs to be implemented in a club, like any other that mixes, fame youth money and alcohol (does young hollywood spring to mind?) a strict moral policy. They need to keep closer tabs on their players and take more of an interest of what kind of man they will be once they leave the league.
I am very interested, however, in how the NRL will change their outlook on this issue in the future. before i believe their discrepancies were hidden and pushed away, not by the league so much, but by their thousands of adoring fans that want to believe they can do no wrong. This article was interesting as it has finally cracked the unwavering adoration and hit home to at least the females and husbands, brothers; fathers.
lozabelle – you can see much the same thing on rugby league forums and in readers’ comments on News.com.au.
There really are some deluded people around – a disturbingly large number apparently.
No further comment on MJ, but I strongly suspect neither he nor his wife watched the program prior to being asked to by Channel 9 as they didn’t want to confront the reality of the situation. They wished to remain in the cocoon of denial in which they’ve been shielding themselves for 7 years.
And Tim – you’re amazing – a) to be brave enough to give your name in the face of such opposition, and b) to be open to changing your opinion.
Also, this is an interesting exchange that just occurred on facebook:
***First, a warning: I dont condone what has been said. Interestingly, Person 1 is a woman. And I just copied and pasted and took out names (thus the bad spelling and awful language). Also, I apologise about the language. I edited it as best I could in terms of colourful language.
Really really, I dont condone what is said in any way, shape or form. I just thought it might be interesting to see what is being said about this issue outside the forum of this blog.***
“(Person 1) feels for matty johns…what did she think was going to happen going back to a hotel room with 2 men. She is clearly a money hungry b**ch”
(Person 2) “orjust hungry for 10 c**ks in her face at once”
(Person 3)”i usually dont get involved in these issues haha, but.. the abc has a long history of not paying interviewees and her face was blacked out. i dont get why everyone thinks its for the fame?”
(Person 1) “i dont think she is doing it for the fame. I think she is after a big compo payout.”
(Person 4) “because she was aware of what she was getting herself into.. happened years ago, and now she’s just jumping on the bangwagon…. girls like her disgust me, dont willingly do something that you think you will regret later in life…. every time a guys has sex with a woman now, he’s gonna have to think maybe in 20 years time she might come back and say “well actually i was young and stupid didnt know what i was doing and have been traumatised since… ” pffttt whatever man…..”
(Person 3)”hmm im niave but still like to think people can still do things without a hidden financial agenda. i feel for his family though, sucky situation.”
(Person 2)”ahaha compo payout? what!what he did was wrong to his wife and his children no one else. She never said she didnt say no to any of it. How stupid can you posiibly be, did she think she was going back for a tea party with all the footy players? Its not football players, such a sterotype, its not just men either, women do stuff like that to. Fullstop… Read More, that b**ch needs to get some f***ing respect for herself and stop whinging, no one cares about the issue, she wasn’t raped, there was no charges laid. For her to go up to the media after 7 years and out this, there needs to be some hidden motive. Football players dont have respect for women blah blah, most men in general dont have respect for women. Women lower themselves to let men disrespect them and that is just what she did. Regrets a b**ch. Maybe by doing this she thinks that she will get sympathy, she obviously feels like a whore inside.”
(Person 5)”and just quietly footballers dont go around RAPING PEOPLE. theyre constantly in the publc eye so i think if they were going to rape someone theyd wear a mask or some shit to hide thier face.. like hello. and theyve got enough football groupies that would willingly f*** all of them so theres no need for rape
this woman is a f***ing ganga who did something she now regrets and wants to drag everybody else down with her
deadset shes a f***ing moron she’ll get her ass raped for real now i bet”
Some people really have no idea.
Like everyone, I’m a bit sick of this topic too but I think it’s brilliant there has been so much discussion from both sides of the fence. It needs to be discussed with passion.
I thought last night’s acting performance from Johns was laughable. I think he may be taking the fall for a bigger issue than the event he participated in but it needed to happen.
I don’t think he committed a criminal act but it astounds me that he (and so many one-eyed NRL fans) still don’t get what the problem is. It’s not the consent part – it was an abuse of power and a silly, naughty interlude that escalated to something much more sinister and scary where a young impressionable girl was treated like a peace of meat for sport and mateship.
He kept talking about it like they both regretted a quickie in the carpark – when his regret stemmed mainly from getting caught and cheating on his wife and her aftermath was one of personal, mental, physical and emotional devastation.
I think he is looking so uncomfortable because he only has 2 options… say that she consented or say he was involved with his friends raping someone. Though some friends they turned out to be letting him take the heat for it all by himself.
(And please, various media, what is all this wording about ‘alleged sex’. The sex isn’t being disputed here. You ‘have’ sex you ‘allege’ rape!)
And I was shocked at how said he left the room. Even the young player who watched the instructional video knows its how you treat them afterwards that matters – you at least put the girl in a cab. When he was done he just left her to the others.
Just as a point of interest, in regards to the link between alcohol and football players and abuse.
I am a debating adjudicator for the NSW DET and yesterday, I adjudicated a debate on the topic “That we should ban professional football players from drinking.” The ideas that some of these kids have are very interesting (year 11 kids).
At least they are being made to think about the link.
Hi Mia,
I’m going off topic here, but a couple of months ago you posted that you are going to be chairing the National Body Image Advisory Board. Do you have any update for us?
A couple of pertinent questions I thought Tracey Grimshaw missed were (1) is it true you apologised to her afterwards in the carpark? and (2) if that is true, why, when you say nothing wrong happened?
I also thought Johns was being evasive in some of his answers. Answering questions along the lines of “in the statement to police I said ….” smells to me of a coached answer and of someone very keen to keep things to a rehearsed version of events. He was also desperately keen to take all the responsibility on himself and deflected the questions about the other players and of the NRL culture.
Why are sexual preferences even a part of this discussion, as far as what ‘decent men’ would do and there’s ’something wrong’ with the girl.
While it’s not for me, if you want to have group sex, that doesn’t make you some sort of freak – no more than being gay, bi or anything else.
I wonder if they all don condoms when engaging in group sex, and if not, what sort of nasty STDs/STIs are going around the NRL community.
Tim, I echo Redhossy’s sentiments…I’m heartened by some men choosing to look beyond their love of the game to the serious problems that exist in the culture.
Unfortunately, I think guys with our opinion are few and far between. I opened up facebook this morning to find this status message from one of the guys I went to high school with in regional NSW:
“I understand that NO means NO. But i didnt know that now it had changed to YES means NO after 7 years”.
I can almost guarantee you that this is the attitude of many young men around the country…and that makes me sad and a little bit tired.
Uhm…. does that mean were looking 30 – 55 year sentences for these footy eff witts?? Maybe thats the only way they will stop this thugish act of ‘group sex.
As for Johns i dont buy his crap one bit. If he was really concerned he would have rallied about this 7 years ago rather than keep it hush hush. He is only concerned about the fact that he got caught out publicly.
Bravo Tim. This week many people (like you) have been forced to change their opinions of a group and a game they worship. It’s tough to see your heroes fall.
I’m just so relieved to see that people on both sides of the ARL are finally taking this issue seriously and treating it as the big deal it really is.
At long last, the balance is being addressed and the victims have been given a voice.
It gives me hope for civilisation.
Even if a woman does “consent” to group sex..we must ask the question WHY she would consent to group sex. Any person with a brain would realise this girl isnt thinking right or that maybe there is something wrong.
Most decent men wouldnt allow themselves to participate in such an act and for the good of the woman, get her out of the situation. Pay for a cab. Send her home.
I’m tired of all of this.
The girl must have been absolutely terrified, and the way she was treated was appauling however I feel mostly sorry for his wife and children. At the end of the day if my husband did what he did, the details would be irrelevant. He slept with another woman. She slept with someones husband. I would be angry with both of them.
I didn’t see the interview.
The issue of consent is really a fine line. She was of age, she went back to the room with more than 1 guy, she consented to group sex. Did the players take advantage of that, yes they did. And it is wrong that they did that. They should ALL be named and shamed. Not just Matty Johns.
NZ police investigated at the time, found no legal case to answer. They have said this morning that they will not be reopening the case.
Why did this woman wait 7 years to bring this into the open? As a sexual assualt survivor I understand the need for time to process what happened, but that is an awfully long time.
In no way do I agree with the treating of women as objects by anyone. What these guys did was disgusting and immoral. But the hoo-ha about ‘they won’t come forward because there is possible gaol time involved’ is taking it a bit far. The police said there was no case then, they will have looked at it again in light of recent reports (they would have to) and are still saying ‘No Case’.
Let’s work on making sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen. Everyone, clubs, players, managers, fans: all need to stop covering up and explaining away this behaviour. Punish it when it happens – and hard.
FlossAus, I understand and feel a bit the same way. What happened was wrong but and it is a big but girls do need to be responsible and think before they act.
I think these players need to be educated but not using the generalised idea of “how to respect women” but bring it down to the personal level. That is, how would you feel if this happened to your daughter, sister, mother, wife etc. Maybe then they would understand.
Also why haven’t the other players in this incident been outed. There must be plenty of people that know who they are. It is wrong to continue to hammer Johns alone.
A few thoughts from me:
1. I think that group sex is completely abhorent. It treats women as objects and men as aggressors.
2. I think the woman in question (and much of the community in geneneral) now has a much heightened opinion that group sex is abhorent. I believe that many would not have said so 1 week ago (at least not with the current conviction).
3. My guess is that PRIOR to the incident 7 years ago, Matty Johns did not apprieciate the pain, regret and guilt that group sex can bring.
4. I also wonder if the (alleged) “consenting” attitude of the girl involved was because PRIOR to that incident she did not appriecate the pain, regret and guilt that group sex can bring, particualrily for a woman. Could it be, that at the time she thought it would be fun, but out of the situation, she acknowledges how impersonal and abusive it was. We have all done things willingly at the time … only to regret it deeply upon reflection.
4. In the aftermath, Matty Johns, and the girl involved, have felt the harsh consequences of group sex. The emotional pain, guilt and long-lasting implication is clearly unbearaable.
5. In anything, this whole incident shows that the way we treat each other requires careful examination of motives, desires and consequences BEFORE we do something we will come to regret.
6. This is completely another point, but I can’t help wonder how much publicity and viewers ACA will have received from that interview last night. I haven’t watched ACA in years and yet I watched the link Mia provieded with great interest. I would have preferred to see Matty Johns be interviewed on 4 Corners, rather than by his own Channel 9 family (no matter how good Tracy was).
“Matty still doesn’t comprehend the nuances involved with ‘consent’. The consent of a 19 year old girl who was in a room with a dozen big footballers is unspeakably tainted. The imbalance of power was grotesque.”
Perfectly said, Mia.
Frankly, I found the interview with Johns uncomfortable to watch. I didn’t think that he sincerely believed there was anything wrong with what happened that night, other than his infidelity.
He kept saying that she was a “willing participant”. It is a moral issue, and evidently some people find nothing wrong with group sex. I hope the majority of society disagrees. It is wrong. Maybe not illegal, but wrong. Especially in a case of 11 big men against one 19 year old girl.
I think that it’s appropriate that Channel 9 have stood Matthew down. He’s hardly a positive role model for anyone following the game of Rugby League. He was a married man, who took a girl back to his hotel room (at his own admission), had sex with her, and then didn’t protest or find it abnormal when a whole bunch of his team mates entered the room and did what they wanted to her too. He claimed that he left the room, but walked back in later to check that “she was OK”. Obviously his definition of ‘OK’ is very different to mine.
This sort of team culture has to be stopped. It is damaging to the women that they inflict these practices on. It is also damaging to naive, young men that come into the game and see older players encourage them in these sorts of behaviours.
My 6 year old son wanted to start playing Rugby League this season but we decided to keep him in soccer for one more year. I’ll be waiting to see how the game of Rugby League cleans up its culture before letting my little boy anywhere near their sport.
Personally, I’m not really bothered if people engage in group sex. If that’s your thing, go for it. If you’re in the public eye, be aware that it’ll probably come back to bite you. But be aware also that if a woman, whoever she is, wants to have sex with A football player, this does not mean that you can invite all your mates to join in.
Consenting adults can do what they like, within reason. We don’t have a right to dictate how they should enjoy sexual freedom.
They do, however, have a responsibility, to show decency and respect.
I think group sex must be pretty weird and have a lack of boundaries that few of us can comprehend. That they see it as a bonding exercise just grosses me out. But like I said, do it if they want, just don’t assume that all women who want to sleep with footballers want to engage in that sort of activity.
During all this debacle all you paople forget that Matty has two children who have to live with this as well. Which certainly doesn’t seem to worry the people who think that he Matty did something abusive and dont seem to worry about what abuse his children will suffer.Also I think that his wife will be thinking also will she be able to live with this. Abuse comes in all forms even from ACA and Tracey Grimshaw hiding behing media priviledge.
not saying i necessarily disagree with you, ann f, but i think it’s less IQ and more mentality that is cause for concern here.
peeople from all codes of sport, as well as those out of the public eye, do stupid things.
i think it runs deeper than how a sport ‘raises’ its players, although some sports do seem to foster the dangerous mentality more than others.
“Footballers” ” …… are the ones so often caught in sex scandals. Where is the men’s swimming team sex scandal?” Possibly the IQ of guys who play rugby league vs that of our swimmers comes into play.
The impression I got from the interview;
While is does seem very genuinly sorry and remorseful, he doesn’t seem to realise the full implications of his actions. He knows it has ’caused pain and embarrasment’ to his family and others, he knows, acknowledges and is sorry that the girl in question has gone through a lot of pain.
But it’s like he doesn’t realise why what he has done is wrong, but is only sorry for the affect it has had on a very generalised group of people.
Like it or not, he is a role model, and many people from many different walks of life look up to him. With that comes responsibility to do the right thing, and to send the right message. Not just to do the ‘legal’ thing, or avoiding doing things that the media might jump on later. It means setting an example of showing others (men and women) respect and respecting himself – even if others don’t necessarily show respect for themselves. It means treating every woman like you would want someone to treat your own daughter or your own sister. It’s just decency. He has failed as a role model, and the really bad thing is he doesn’t even seem to realise it – although he has had 7 years to think about it. He was in a powerful position in that interview last night and he had the opportunity to send a very strong message. But he missed it. I feel sorry for him for the fact that he just doesn’t get it.
Like a few others, I am extremely, extremely torn over this issue. Like Mia comments, the imbalance of power in that room was gross and for the girl completely daunting. Of course, it would be difficult to say no, and she would have felt pressured, but unfortunately there is that part of me (and even now I feel guilty about it) that says, you went to that room with two men, you put yourself in a situation that wasn’t savoury and wasn’t safe and the consquences far outweigh the recklessness of what happened, at some point, you made a decision to be in that room.
The reason, I feel this was, is because I think it taints all other women who have legal claims of clear black and white cases of assault. A few years back, two AFL players were charged after an incident in which the two women involved, said no, left the premises immediately and called the police. The players involved were supported by the club and team mates and the newspapers stood rank and file to defend them. The boys were left off after insufficient evidence and are now considered star players. The public perception of the two women invovled was horrible. And the reasoning for many people was that they had asked for it, they were in the bad situation.
I’ve seen first hand the way women, when surrounded by sports stars, of any code, line up, ten to the dozens and prowl for these men. In no way does that ever defend, condone or excuse the behaviour from them, but another question we need to ask ourselves as women is what kind of messge are we sending about ourselves? We rage against the machine when Britney wears no pants or over sexualises herself, because it sets a bad example. What example do we set in the bars when zoning in on these boys?!
The ACA interview was almost painful to watch, but Tracey did a great job. No backing off and I am so glad she said what any decent person would think. How is one teenage girl and a room full of burly footy players ever okay. I think Johns believes what he says about it being fully consensual, but he’s kidding himself. She was so outnumbered, she had bugger all chance to give consent. The whole situation is disgusting, and shows just how low men can go when they are surrounded by a culture that sees women as prey to be conquered by men who have a right to get their rocks off any way they want.
Kelly@SHE-POWER
Tim, glad you can now see things more clearly. Well done. It would be great if you could get your mates to start seeing things from your new perspective- it would be of great comminuity service. Thrilled you are no longer a “defiant arsehole.” Continue the ground swell of change!!!
The article summed up everything I have felt since watching the Four Corners program.
However, I have been absolutely gobsmacked by the attitudes of some women towards the women involved in the NRL sex groupls.
At work a group of 7-8 staff had a brief, casual discussion regardign the Four Corners show and I was appalled that two women (24 & 34) stated that the girls had asked for it and should not have gotten themselves into that position.
There was an appalled silence from the 5 MEN (and myself) in the conversation and we all agreed to stop the discussion as we were all about to lay into the two women with this attitude.
Unfortunately, they reflect the attitude of some people in the community, and, it would seem, those of the NRL.
Scary.
That’s the one Jade, it’s a shocker. Gutless too, won’t even put his name behind his shit talk
Tim I think this is the article it makes me sick
http://www.smh.com.au/news/lhqnews/you-wont-stop-our-sex-romps–rep-star/2009/05/13/1241894044999.html
This morning I realised I have been defending rugby league, my favourite sport, for years against claims it’s not as good as other sports, the players are dumb, they are misogynistic, they are thugs.
I would like to take this opportunity to throw in the towel. What has been happening this year (and no doubt for decades before) is too much. I no longer feel I can relate to any players of the game.
After reading something in the herald about an anonymous player saying group sex will continue regardless, I finally decided to give it up…I mean imagine being a defiant arsehole at a time like this!
I hope that the sport lives on, but damn, I’ll be barracking for my team as an entity, not as a group of guys I’d care to know or relate to in any way.
What a horrible shame for all the good eggs in the game and what a horrible embarrassment for sport fans who stand up for their on-field heroes, only to find out later about the atrocities that are occurring.
Get rid of them all and start afresh.
Apologies to any I’ve unduly offended. no doubt I’ll have many different opinions to you in future, but I’m not commenting on rugby league ever again.
Hi Mia,
Repeating myself here, but as I have been following this rugby discussion – I would love you to get your hands on the document “Footy Chicks”, directed by Rebecca Barry (Ronin Films) that explores the social environment where these players live. Absolutely shocking. Would be interested to know what you think, and would it change your view. For example M. Devine (SMH)today touches on the role of women. I am v confused and conflicted personally. Great piece on the Australian btw!