Matty Johns on ACA: the aftermath
Do you like this story?
Yesterday, a journalist I know and admire called Caroline Overington called me for comment on this story for a feature she was writing for today's Australian newspaper.
At first, I said no. It was an instinctive reaction based on my fear of being verbally abused by NRL fans. It's happened before, when I went on…..
……the Today Show and criticised Brett Stewart and the culture of the NRL which seems incapable of instilling the concept of respecting women into many (not all) of its players. The emails I received afterwards were aggressive and absusive.
But then, I thought about it. And I thought about the brave women who came forward on Four Corners to tell their stories. And I thought about Sarah Fergusson, the Four Corners reporter who broke that story and compiled that astonishing investigative piece of journalism. I thought about female sports journalists like Rebecca Wilson and Carolyn Wilson who have repeatedly written passionately and courageously about the issue. And I thought about Tracey Grimshaw who, on ACA the night before her interview with Matty Johns, spoke out stridently condemning him and the culture that could allow such a thing to take place, as well as the off-hand way it was handled by her colleagues at The Footy Show during Matty Johns' public apology last week.
And I thought to myself, THIS is why nothing ever changes. THIS is why no NRL player has ever been convicted. THIS is why this disgusting behaviour has been allowed to continue behind closed doors for so many years – decades if you believe former coach Roy Masters who told Sarah Fergusson (and Rebecca Wilson) that group sex has been a way for footy players to 'bond' for generations.
And I thought about how much I admire all those women for standing up and making their voices heard. And I was ashamed that I was thinking of staying silent. Not that my opinion or my comments matter much in the scheme of things. But symbolically, I felt it was something I should do.
Caroline's feature is published in The Australian today and she has used a couple of small quotes from me but more importantly, she's used quotes from YOU.
She visits mamamia and she read your comments and quoted from them (anonymously) with my permission.
Here's an excerpt from her feature:
"In a deeply uncomfortable interview, Johns told Tracy Grimshaw on
Nine's A Current Affair last night he was sorry for "any pain and
trauma" the woman had suffered. He said what happened was "morally not
OK". At the same time he disputed her account and insisted she "was a
willing participant in what occurred", was in no distress and "gave no
indication she didn't want to be there".
The decision to cut Johns loose to face the storm alone wasn't
supported by all in the community, with websites flooded with protests.
Sure, the incident with the girl in NZ was ugly, but it was also a
sexual act, between consenting adults, more than seven years ago.
But those who know Nine boss David Gyngell weren't surprised that he
acted quickly. He's a good and gentle guy, and although he is a mate of
Johns, he was genuinely appalled by what he heard and saw on Four
Corners.
There's no doubt that the network had learned something from the
incident with Sam Newman, an ex-AFL player who fondled a female
mannequin on the Victorian Footy Show, as a way to humiliate and debase
one of the best sports reporters in the country, who happens to be
female: The Age's Caroline Wilson. The backlash from the public saw
ratings plummet.
If the NRL was in any doubt about what the public – and in
particular, women – thought of the behaviour uncovered by Four Corners,
it needed only to go to Twitter or the blogs, and see the comments
raging.
"I used to be the biggest Matty Johns fan going, but this has put me
off him in a way nothing else could," says one of social commentator
Mia Freedman's readers, on the MamaMia blog. "Him being allowed to keep
his job would send the worst message to young blokes."
Another said: "Women make most of the consumer decisions in their
households, so let's hit 'em where it hurts. Cancel the memberships,
the season tickets; when the Footy Show is on then switch over. Most of
all, pull your kids out of the sport."
Prominent sports journalist Rebecca Wilson wrote in Sydney's The
Daily Telegraph that she'd received dozens of emails from female league
fans who cried throughout the Four Corners show.
"They will never go to a league game again, let alone allow any of their sons to play the game," Wilson said.
Some in the program had put forward the idea that rugby league
encourages aggression and risk-taking on the field, and that it was
hard for young men to be "submissive" – the word used by Newcastle
Knights chief executive Steve Burraston – off the field.
But nobody was buying that.
Freedman says there is "something clearly wrong with the culture at
the NRL that allows young men to think it's OK to treat women this
way".
"It's not like the NRL is the only time men get together in groups.
It's not like footballers are the only people who go away to play, and
stay together, and have a drink together," she says. "Yet they are the
ones so often caught in sex scandals. Where is the men's swimming team
sex scandal? We're told that these men have to be aggressive, they have
to be gladiators on the field, and you can't expect them to just switch
off.
"But it isn't true. There is no reason why men can't play sport, and play it well, and still be decent men."
Bad behaviour is not exclusive to the code, but it does have by far the worst reputation.
Other sports are replete with examples of gentleman warriors: George
Gregan, John Eales and Nick Farr-Jones, for example, and Peter
FitzSimons, all of whom played rugby union for Australia, and are now
pillars of thecommunity.
Australian Rugby Union officials nevertheless admitted on Tuesday
that they could not guarantee bad behaviour towards women had never
occurred in their code.
There are some in rugby league who are appalled, too. Preston
Campbell, a Gold Coast player, told The Daily Telegraph yesterday that
the woman in NZ must have been so afraid, to see so many men in the
room, waiting to have sex with her.
"I have a daughter myself," he said. "If it happened to my daughter,
I'd want some answers from police. She must be struggling. She must
have been scared."
The league was shattered by the program not only because of the
ugliness it explosed, but because it has put so much effort in recent
years to boosting the image of its players.
Matt Franklin, who runs education and welfare programs for NRL
players, says an incredible effort has gone into programs to encourage
young players to respect other people. Franklin says he's proud of many
of the young men who come through the sport. He encourages them to get
balance in their lives, by taking up educational programs, or other
pursuits, while also playing footy.
You can read Caroline's full feature here and I highly recommend you do……
Did you watch the Matthew Johns interview last night? I must say I found it pretty astonishing
that he and his wife had not seen the Four Corners report until they
were asked by Channel 9 to view it before the interview. I cannot fathom the reasoning behind not having viewed the report when it was aired.
I've been listening to radio all morning and my head is spinning with all the views being expressed. My own opinion is that like so many men, Matty still doesn't comprehend the nuances involved with 'consent'. The consent of a 19 year old girl who was in a room with a dozen big footballers is unspeakably tainted. The imbalance of power was grotesque. Someone should have seen that and acted to stop it. THIS is what we need to be concerned about. THIS is what the NRL must seek to drum into the thick heads of the men who routinely treat women as empty vessels to be used and discarded.
You might also like:
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“Rugby league culture has been exposed this week as the big, festering boil it is…”
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Matthew Johns had group sex with his footy mates and a 19 year old girl. Another nightmare day for the NRL.
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Here’s an idea for footy players this weekend: stay home!
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An open letter to the NRL
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Matthew Johns & more appalling stories about NRL group sex. Thank you Four Corners for an outstanding report.
Probably noone listeneing anymore but I just have to say _ Cate & TheRealSydney especially – you took the words right out of my mouth. Glad to hear voices of reason amongst the hysteria
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Is this a record number of comments?
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Kass, that is such a huge thing to share with the blog. You are very brave.
Given the back and forth that has gone on, your story should be the end of it. You’ve expressed it eloquently, factually, from both sides of the coin. That really is the end of the matter. But it never is, is it?
Mere_male brings up that litany of the experience of all us older peeps; it’s happened before, and it’s gonna happen again….
Perhaps what goes on behind closed doors will never change; yet this storm in a teacup, this storm in the blogosphere, will perhaps redefine our social values. We don’t treat women like this, no matter what the situation. Men and women are accountable for their behaviour. While older peeps may have paid lip service to this, it seems to have slipped under the radar in recent times.
It is never acceptable to slash another human being with a glass. It is never acceptable to engage in behaviour that denigrates or degrades another human being. These realisations should be tantamount to a moral code, not only the subject of this blog, but also that Bill of Rights that our pollies waffle on about occasionally.
This hasn’t been a storm in a teacup, it has been a watershed debate that shows there is a distinct groundswell of support for the dignity of people and a disaffection for the predators in our society. Glassing, group rape, and sexual assault are no longer activities to be brushed under the carpet, to be forgotten in the light of day; they are issues we need to address. To deny retribution for these crimes is, in itself, reprehensible. Harrumph!
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Thanks for sharing that Kass.
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GeorgiaSweet, english is my second language, I am glad you understood the message, I have been thinking about the issue, and i got something for the the players, if they are into group sex and the like, they could consider to use brothels,and live young women alone.
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With our moral compasses swinging wildly, I suppose we have all read this article in “The Age”?
http://www.theage.com.au/national/generation-sex-as-norms-shift-20090516-b6tn.html
Whilst the article talks about what was or was not “fantasy sex” with the previous generation, I can vividly remember my university years in the late 60s and early 70s: the pill, no HIV or hepatitis C, free love, sexual liberation, burning bras / no bras and a lack of responsibility that went with all of the above: “spit-roasts” and group sex were not unusual at some parties and residential colleges. Did no-one here ever go to a music festival (and look at the acts off-stage as much as on-stage)? A real eye-opener (no pun intended) for a naive young lad from the country.
I wonder how many senior doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants (mmm, perhaps not accountants) and yes perhaps even those self-appointed moral gate-keepers – journalists – feel mortified and embarrassed when thinking back on their tertiary student years. I wonder how many would like their previous (sex) lives subject to the same intense level of media scrutiny.
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kass, that is a big thing to share. Thank you for being so generous.
I similarly had a call with a footballer and a boxer, around 1986. They were guests at an award night at the venue where I worked. Luckily, I was sober and they weren’t and I had security guards to warn them off. But neither of them would believe I would not be interested. They were VERY persistant. Embarassingly so.
I consider myself lucky to have been spared anything terrible. Both men have since gone on to have form, both being tried for assult. Strange things can happen on a dark night when alcohol is involved.
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Kass, thanks so much for having the courage to share your story. I, too, am torn by this issue and your post has given me more to consider.
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I was sexually assaulted by an AFL player and his mate in 1996. I was 18.
I met him in a club and, being drunk, was awfully impressed that he would even talk to me. I got in a cab with him and his mate to go to another footballers house.
By the time we arrived I had sobered up enough to know I did not want to be with either of them and I wanted to go home.
On arrival I tried to stay in the cab and go home but they insisted they would not touch me so I got out. Stupid on my part.
Outside this other footballers home they forced me to perform sexual acts on them both while the other watched. I cried thw whole time.
Thankfully the footballer whose home we went to, came out and realised I was distressed and told them to **** off. This was one of his teammates which I can now look back on and see as being brave on his part.
This footballer then put me into his car and drove me home, 20 mins away, at 3.30am.
It affected my relationships with men for years and I am still so embarrassed.
So, armed with that experience, I say this:
At 18 or 19, no-one, not male or female. are fully matured in any way, least of all sexually. Most people at that age make mistakes of varying kinds and “Clare” did too by going back to the hotel room with Johns and his teammate.
But, like I had to, Clare has to take some responsibility for her decision. It is FINE for her to regret it and be embarrassed. I know I am. Like me, she chose not to alert police at the time. I chose not to because I felt responsible for what happened because I got in the cab. I know now that is wrong but it’s how I felt. I also did not want the inevitable media attention that it would bring (he was a well known player) and the labels that would be given to me – unfairly. I am not and was not a slut. I just made a stupid decision and was forced into doing something I did not want to when I tried to reverse that decision.
The Matthew Johns issue is not one of legality. Clearly no law was broken. This is an issue of morality. No doubt Clare’s morals have changed in the time since. I’d like to hope that Johns’ has too. But what the public is doing is making moral judgements about Matthew Johns, about his team-mates and about Clare.
No-one, outisde those DIRECTLY AFFECTED by those moral decisions, has the right to cast judgement on those involved. You might not approve of what happened. You might not like knowing it goes on. But it does go on. Widely. More widely than you’d think. And I bet many of your friends have taken part in sexual activities that they’re embarrassed by, would raher not recall and which you don’t like. But I bet it happens.
Personally I feel deep empathy for both sides of this situation. I can put myself in Clare’s place and know how she came to be in that situation, and how she has come to feel as she does today. I also feel sad that Matthew Johns has paid a very high price for what was a moral choice and the only person he is truly accountable to over that is his wife. I feel sorry that the families of BOTH Johns and Clare are going through continued anguish and pain for something that happened a long time ago. That both these people will have children who will be teased and taunted over this for years to come, and have to come to terms with knowledge of their parents activities – knowledge they should never have to know.
But I really think we should take care of our own moral lives and make sure we never do the wrong thing by another in any capacity before we start casting stones against people we don’t actually know.
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TheRealSydney, I am inclined to sway over to your side of the fence now.
I was chatting to some girlfriends today and they told me that there are young women out there who genuinely enjoy having sex with several men, apparently young people have parties so they can do this.
Sounds revolting and hard to imagine for me but apparently there are people who are into that.
I guess it is like those leather and whip people?!
I used to work off Oxford St and I’d pass those stores in my lunchbreak and I was always surprised to see people shopping in there! So it must happen, people must like that kind of thing.
It takes all types…
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OK – I’m banging on again – I just can’t seem to get this off my mind.
Many of you are pointing your comments around the girls age and immaturity.
So I just checked it out – the average age of the Cronulla Shark’s line up today, is 24 years old (8 of them are under 25 – 5 of them are 21 or under, there are 2 x 19 year olds)
One of the players involved 7 years ago, who has been named or stepped forward or shamed or whatever, was 22 years old at the time – wonder what his level of maturity was at the time ….
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I’m with you again Cate – why hasn’t Mia posted again with regard to the new information on ‘Clare’. Clare is a disgrace to any woman who has been truly raped or sexually abused.
OK – had a think over the weekend and I have a bit more to say on this …
I think that maybe the main thing wrong with the NRL culture is that the media get involved and make us all begigitty about it – we know that there are girls who are willing to participate – it’s been proven over and over.
We wouldn’t be in a position to ‘judge’ their ‘moral compass’ if the media would stop telling us about it. There wouldn’t have to be public indignation if some reporter from Four Corners hadn’t dug this up!
If women are prepared to be disrespected then that’s their problem – we don’t have to ‘fix’ them, that’s just who they are.
Let’s talk about the ‘moral compass’ – why is it waved around so much when NRL players are concerned??
Elton John was a hard core coke addict, as was Robin Williams & Richard Prior – I could go on …
ummm – you wanna talk about role models : – Heath Ledger died from a drug overdose – GIVE HIM AN OSCAR!!!
Oooh Kate Moss – busted on camera snorting coke – give her a range at TOP SHOP and make her Honorary Second Chair at the Met Costume Gala.
Anyone here like Eddy Murphy movies? Dream Girls maybe? do you let your kids watch his movies? HE GOT BUSTED WITH A TRANSGENDER HOOKER, HE HAS HAD 8 KIDS TO FOUR DIFFERENT WOMEN & PUBLICLY DENIED PATERNITY OF AT LEAST ONE.
Any fans of Hugh Grant? Love Actually? HE GOT BUSTED GETTING A BLOW JOB FROM A HOOKER
What about Rob Lowe? he’s HOT in Brothers and Sisters right? UNDERAGE SEX TAPE SCANDAL
Oh and let’s not forget Charlie Sheen – 2 and a half men is a great show right? HE WAS INVOLVED IN BRINGING DOWN THE BIGGEST MADAM IN HOLLYWOOD.
WHY IS MATTY JOHNS LOSING HIS CAREER AND REPUTATION BECAUSE HE BANGED A LOOSE MORALED WOMAN 7 YEARS AGO??????
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I don’t care if everything that went on in that hotel room was legal. What happened was a naive and young woman entered a hotel room and was taken advantage of. I don’t think anyone would deny this. Nothing illegal was found to have occurred. My problem with this whole issue is that some people seem to think that because she initially put herself in this situation, she should be somehow to blame for the actions of the football players also there. They blatantly took advantage of her. They didn’t even speak to her. Some say she should know better. And yes, she probably should. But I think her portion of the “blame” for her inability to extract herself from an unsavory situation PALES in comparison to the “blame” for these players actions. These men involved appeared to have no respect for this woman as a human being. AT ALL.
She may have acted unwisely by going back to the hotel room, but surely, SURELY you must agree that the burden of guilt (not in the legal sense) lies with these men? Men who are most likely more worldly than a “very young, even for 19″ year old girl? Men who knew they were leaving the country within a few days and could leave her behind? Men that we hold up as idols for our children?
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wollywally: is that a new benchmark for the construction of a sentence? Impressively unbound by convention but still (strangely) understandable.
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This just gets better and better, though that’s possibly the worst word to describe this media circus and public outcry. With each new development of the so called ‘facts of the matter’, opinions sway back and forth. First the morality of the participants is called into question; then the morals of a society that has fostered such a culture is examined. Both are found wanting by many, and questioned by all.
Though the situation is decidedly not a legal issue, it certainly is one of social concern. The grassroots interest from the blogoshere is being echoed stridently by many popular journalists in Australia. As one, they have come out in force to express opinions which reflect the public indignation.
As a result, the man or woman in the street seems more concerned with this issue than the economic future of our nation. The incumbent Milky Bar Kid’s budgetary pronouncements earlier this week barely raised an eyebrow, while the revelation that footballers are having group sex, and being paid lots of money to do so, raised the hackles of sports fans and cynics alike.
A league player’s leisure activities can no longer be described as ‘The Secret Life of Us’; more appropriate perhaps is ‘Packed To The Rafters’.
Unfortunately, for the next generation, such activity could also be called ‘How I Met Your Mother’.
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I am a true beliver that action speack louder then words, the only way to change this to happen again his to hit the wallet, not wacthing the rugby, tv shows including the footy show that will brig changes, support the teams that do the right thing, discussing in blogs ect will only hurt the wife and the kids of Mr John wich are the real victims in the all saga, please remember that what get written in the internet stay in the internet for long time, all your comments will be free to be google for Mr, John kids and granchildrem, you wouldn’t like that to happen to you?!.
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Straight off the bat I want to say I’m a West Australian so I have absolutely NO interest in the game at all. I have been watching this unfold all week and it appears this is what we know – Yes Matt Johns had sex Clare, Yes other players eneredt the room & he left the room, this matter was investigated when it happened 7 years ago and he & his wife dealt with this 7 years ago. Now since this doco aired her colleagues have come forward and said she bragged about it and a player who was there has stated the woman left the hotel room, propositioned him and took him back to her house. This behaviour would indicate that she was more than a willing participant. She was 19 at the time has probably grown up to become embarrassed by her actions and wants to blame other for her choices. In the mean time Matt Johns has lost his job, his reputation and his state of mind. What employer – anywhere else other than in the media – would sack a worker over something that happened 7 years ago, was investigated by police with no charges being laid? Yes he cheated on his wife but that is a matter for him & his wife, yes players entered the room and he left, Yes NRL has a rep for this sort of stuff but you can’t let all the other cases cloud your judgement over every single case. This story was done with the knowledge of what the fall out would be yet the reporter does not seem to have investigated any further to see if Clare’s version of events was correct.
I know I’m going to cop a bit of flack for what I have written here but seriously not all women are victims, they seek out celebs to bed – they are sports groupies, I know NRL players have been involved in genuine rape cases but unfortunately it will be because of people like Clare who will make it harder for the genuine people to be heard.
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It is interesting that there are some who are confused by the idea of someone making a moral judgement of the situation, as opposed to judging the morals of the individuals in regard to their attitude to sex. The imbalance of power of the situation is the concern.
I too feel for John’s wife in this situation, and can only imagine how it would feel to have heard what had happened, from his point of view, for seven years and being confronted with details which would cause you to question that version.
I can only imagine, that her focus would undoubtedly have been on the infidelity of her husband. To be confronted, when viewing the 4 corners program, with the sordid details of the incident, would have been shocking.
I don’t doubt that she truly was shocked and like most people, consider how they, a friend or sister or daughter would have reacted in a similar situation.
She will no doubt find it hard to reconcile these things, along with the faith she had in the character of her husband.
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Again, regarding John’s wife Trish: have you noticed how desperate she was for his words to be the truth? She kept saying “this is what our marriage has been sustained on, that is why it survived, due to his full disclosure”. The whole marriage is at stake; there is no possibility to consider an alternative to what she believes in, otherwise the past 7 years become a mirage.
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Yes, Cate, Trish perhaps needs to figure out why she has chosen such a difficult path – remaining married to a man of questionable morals. It is painfully obvious that a man who is devoted to his wife would not make his one and only occasion of infidelity a despicable gang bang of a teenager. A person must be of a certain (im)moral fabric to cheat in THIS way…Only a naive person would assume that was his first, one and only indiscretion. So, she knowingly continued her marriage with a cheater and potentially a liar.
Love is not the only thing that keeps people married. Some stay married due to convinience; some due to financial considerations, children etc. I’d put forward a suggestion that she herself did not have a very high self esteem to think that she did not deserve a better man.
It is ridiculous that people have begun to elevate their marriage to be an example of a perfect love union. This is a woman who has made a mistake of her life by remaining married to this man and a man who does not deserve her.
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The thing I really don’t understand is WHY aren’t those other players standing up and saying VERY loudly, “No, she DID consent, she WAS a willing participant, and we did NOTHING WRONG”?
In my experience, if I am accused of something I didn’t do, I will defend myself until the cows come home. Very Loudly.
I realise they are probably scared of what may happen to their careers, but surely if they are all able to say categorically what happened (and given that no charges we laid etc), and stand up as honest men, then that must be at least close to the truth.
Even in Matthew Johns’ interview his comments of “she was a willing particpant” seemed half-arsed and shaky. I know he was upset and exhausted, but there was no passion to the statement, no vehemence, no intent. It just sounded like badly coached spin.
But the silence is deafening, and it makes me wonder why….
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So Slava, you’re saying she needs to see a psychologist to figure out why she chose to believe her husband above anyone else? The man she chose to spend her whole life with, to have children with? I think that’s simply called trust, not something that requires a psychologist. And there is nothing wrong with that. And if she believed him, it was her choice what to do with that information; and that is certainly not for us to judge. Also, as I have said before, why, exactly, is his version of events any less valid than Clare’s?
Further allegations have been brought forward tonight about Clare, that back up what was said by a former colleague of hers last night. Given that Mia has so far posted on every new development in the case, I was interested to see today that no post was made about what has been claimed about Clare.
Allison – I agree with you that this is an issue in the NRL. However, again I believe it’s a minority ruining it for the majority. That ‘rep star’ who came forward yesterday and stated that it’ll keep happening – all I can say about him is, what an absolute idiot. However, I think issues of degrading treatment towards women and consent are merely reflective of wider society, and heightened by the fame that comes with NRL. It’s a problem we need to confront at a societal level. That being said, should all parties consent and enjoy it, I really don’t have a problem with what people choose to do in their personal sex lives.
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degrading and off putting it may be StepfordDreams, but not criminal
I think in general, but in no way directed at you, some people are allowing their moral standards to cloud this issue
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You are right Amanda, I did hear Trish say “I would not want her to be my daughter”, not “I would not want it to be my daughter”. I, too, would be surprised if she meant to ‘inject humanity’ into the situation. She has chosen to believe her husband, and it would be very hard to let go of that belief now. As she herself said, the whole past 7 years of marriage has been built on his full disclosure. If that’s taken away, what is left? She needs to see a psychologist herself to figure out why she would chose that for herself.
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The reason NRL players treat women like this is that most women influence that treatment. An anonymous NRL player stated that within minutes of entering a club he had 3 offers for sex. What do you expect them to do when the women don’t even have any respect for themselves. I don’t respect that, but you have to consider all sides of the situation
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I’m surprised that so many other women here are as repusled as I am. I know that often I am considered the prude amongst my friends…
So many are talking about the wonky moral compass, but are you as revolted by one night stands?
I find the idea of someone willing to have sex with a stranger no less awful than a person willing to have sex with multiple strangers.But I often get the impression here that many women think a one stand is acceptable behaviour.
What makes it any more palatable than sex with several strangers?
To me it is all degrading and off putting.
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Rugby Legue men really have the worst attitudes to women. I live in acountry town and even the local club are appauling. One of the young girls I work with nieve and desperate for a boyfriend, marriage and babies only 17 years old went back to a party with the football boys, ended up being taped on a phone giving a head job and it was texted around town. She is shattered, barely experienced in sex and a reputation ruined. Same guys had a “bun” with another young girl, my sister tried to pull her away but she wanted to stay. She was too drunk to know what she wanted. MAJOR regrets the next day. She may sound like a tart but with a history of sexual abuse and the only way of getting attention is wild sexual acts. This abuse just magnified her poor self image and no self worth.
Men need to understand this is taking advantage and is not ok.
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Well done, Mia, for adding your comments in this piece. The more influential people voicing their outrage on this matter the better.
Did anyone else know that, in the U.S.A., it is a requirement of all elite sport athletes to have a college degree? Often this is accessible through scholarships, but it is a requirement.
I’m not saying this should be done in Australia, but it certainly gives us some food for thought in light of the uneducated and backtracking nature of rugby league ways of thinking and culture.
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Did any one else here Trish Johns correctly when she said about Claire- “I wouldn’t like her to be my daughter”. That is a demeaning comment suggesting she is a tramp. I’m sick of the paper quoating her as simpathetically saying ” I wouldn’t like it to be my daughter”. Totally different meaning to the saint she is made out to be.
Maxine McKew clearly misquoated her
(“Trish Johns got to the heart of it when she said, simply, “I wouldn’t want it to be my daughter.”
“With her words and her expression, we finally got a bit of humanity into this tawdry saga.”)
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,,25483279-5001030,00.html
I re listened to the interview to make sure but she did not say or imply that.
It annoys me because she makes this girl out to be a slut but can forgive her huspband.
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‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing – Edmund Burke’
Posted by: Slava | Friday, May 15, 2009 at 07:09 PM
I think this quote sums up this situation perfectly.
Thank you Slava – for the quote and your post.
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I listened today to a very interesting radio interview with an ethics expert. He put forward an argument that our society has lost its moral compass. He gave an example of the way child abuse victims charities and organizations promote their causes. They actually commission economists to prepare reports of taxpayer money-saving benefits of reducing child abuse. E.g. values-driven argument that child abuse is not acceptable and must be fought against does not work for people any more, they need to see what monetary value there’s in order to support the cause.
He contrasted that fact against the fight for the abolition of slavery that happened 200 years ago. There was a time when a society believed in what’s right, not in what’s legal or profitable. The slavery was abolished despite the strong argument outlining that the economy would collapse if that happened.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing – Edmund Burke.
I think what so many Australians are trying to do right now is get back to the values-driven roots of humanity. The police might not have found any crime….However, so many of us feel that 10 extra players coming through the doors of the room where a 19 year old girl laid naked and vulnerable is WRONG. Morally wrong. We feel that Matt Johns doing nothing, stepping away and allowing his mates to continue with the girl is WRONG. A good man, a moral man would have seen the callousness, the cruelty of the situation. Let alone a 30 year old married man.
Those Australians who want to once again become a society driven by our values, not just laws, do not want this man to be held up as a role model, public figure, celebrity.
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I have a thought which is NOT a defense of the footballers, but Tracy Grimshaw at one point suggested that Johns should have told this girl that she should reconsider the group sex thing.
So my question is would the girl have listened if someone in that room had taken her from the room to safety?
Nothing against the girl personally , but being empowered sexually seems to have taken the huge tip over into crazy group sex that few can cope with.
Again no judgement on group sex but it seems to be as much a part of our life experience as a party.
Maybe thats the bigger issue, i don’t know ??
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@concerned we will never know because she never actually said no – presumably if she had there would have been a criminal xase to answer for in NZ and more pointedly Four Corners would have asked her whether she had said no – it was not in their interests to do so
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Cate, I can appreciate your view on this subject. And while I don’t agree, I can see why you sympathise with Matthew Johns.
However, I think there is something bigger here than Matthew Johns.
While the public focus has been on him, the Four Corners report was actually about the code of conduct of the NRL.
No, “bunning” as a bonding exercise is not in the official NRL hand book, however there is a culture within the NRL that breeds this behaviour. And if it is ok for prominent “role models” to do it then others within that group are going to think it is ok too. And that group is all encompassing from staff members, to players, to fans to kids. That a sexual degrading act is OK is a pretty dangerous mentality to be preaching to such a large body.
While this type of group sex may not be legally criminal, there is no question that in most cases it is morally degrading.
The Christchurch group sex was not an isolated incident. Members of the NRL have come out (some anonymously) to say that it goes on now, has gone on in the past, and will continue to go on in the future. That is the issue. Not Matthew Johns.
Arguing over whether or not there was consent, or whether or not she bragged about it, or whether or not it was legal detracts from the main issue.
What type of men (and women) do we want to raise in our society? What sort of behaviour do we want to promote? By allowing influential people to get away with immoral acts (even if they are legal) without consequence is a sure fire way to ensure it continues.
I believe that role models have a greater duty of care than your average Joe. And while in some cases the men may think the girl is “up for it”, surely there would be an underlying sense of “man, she’s gonna regret it in the morning” and if that sense is there and you carry on any way then you shouldn’t be in a position where you can have an influence on young people’s hearts and minds.
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This whole situation is beyond disgusting! I think that one of the most frustrating parts of the ACA interview (in which Tracy Grimshaw did a fantastic job) was that Matthew Johns still did not seem to understand the issue. It was not infidelity toward his wife, if she is willing to tolerate that it is between them. What i have a problem with is that how at any point in that situation was he able to watch 12 men line up to have sex with a young women and think this was acceptable and ok is beyond comprehension. He was a senior player in the team, a married man and a father, and he should have known better under any circumstances. However, in saying that i think not only do we as a society need to address the issue of mens lack of respect for women, but also womens lack of respect for themselves. This young women is by means a moral compass. She did willing go back to the room with 2 men, and i am sure she was not expecting to play monolpoly. However she most certainly did not expect 12! If we only address mens morality issues im afraid it wont be enough, we desperately need to start educating young women into protecting themselves emotionally and physically. One night stands and cheap sex will not get you rich successful husband, as sadly i believe some insecure women seem to think. For as far as feminism has come we still have not gone far enough if we dont have young girls and women who feel empowered, assertive and strong enough to say no, mean no and follow through with no, no matter who is asking!
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What I want to know, is how did the other plays become involved? Someone obviously made them aware of the situation. She either knew of this before hand, or someone let all the other players know. I imagine a txt (dirty slut up 4 it).
On 4corners they mentioned players were climbing through windows. HELLO!!! What chance did she have?
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Concerned – yes you are naive actually, to think that women who hook up with more than one drunk NRL player when the whole team are there and on tour, don’t know what they are potentially getting themselves into.
She bragged about it to her workmates … she wanted to be able to brag that she nailed Matty Johns – and she was prepared to do anything to accomplish that – that’s why she only remembers one name.
Who knows what would have happened if she actually did say no, get up, get dressed and leave … oh wait, we won’t know that will we? cos by her own admission she didn’t even try …
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Posted by: Emma | Friday, May 15, 2009 at 03:54 PM
I can think of at least one case where a footballer was fired for sexual scandal reasons, where not only was a law not broken but the police were never even called or involved in any way. Wayne Carey was booted from the North Melbourne Football club following an incident in a bathroom at a party. The difference was that the woman concerned was the wife of one of his teammates, & the rest of the team refused to play with Carey after that.
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I haven’t been commenting on this topic because my friends and family have spent a lot of time debating this in the past few days, but boy have I found it interesting to follow everyone’s comments on these NRL posts. It’s SO fascinating to read how differently everyone thinks – love it!
Cate – I just wanted to say that I have agreed with all you’ve said! I see this issue in the exact same way – you’re very eloquent!
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Silly me, not to realise, that when having sex with one (or two) partners, I should expect and be prepared to be confronted up to 10 of their ‘mates’ appearing in the room. A single woman, lying naked on a bed in the situation obviously is in control, and would not feel intimidated by the size and sheer number of men confronting her. And these ‘men’ obviously also entered the room respecting her right to say no.
Silly naive me.
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Allison, if the issue is not whether it was consensual, why are so many people on here calling an essentially good person who screwed up a rotten rapist?
The NRL as a body does not promote it. It is a minority of players who give the entire code a bad name. I pity David Gallop this week, because he has a hell of a mess on his hand.
Whether it was consensual and whether she bragged about it afterwards are, in fact, a large part of the issue. This week, a man’s entire life has almost been ruined. His children will become targets in the schoolyard. His wife has had to suffer the same pain not once, but twice. If she bragged about it afterwards before deciding, five days later, that she was assaulted, then that is a major issue because what she has come out and said this week has destroyed Matthew Johns.
Furthermore, I don’t believe she was intoxicated. Nowhere in any reports I’ve read has it said she was. She had just finished work. The men were drunk. If she was asking for the sex, then how are drunk men meant to reason she is placing herself in a dangerous situation? And as I said in my previous post, I don’t believe we should expect them to be responsible for her choices.
Matthew Johns made a huge mistake. Ultimately, however, his greatest crime was to his wife. She has been able to move on. I have deep sympathy for Matthew Johns – I’m sorry, but I do. Not for what he did, because he chose to have sex with her. But for what he’s going through now. He is being used as a scapegoat. He has nearly lost everything. I thought his interview with ACA and Phil Gould’s words last night made it clear the toll this has taken on him. Do we expect him to pay forever for making a mistake?
I do empathise with the woman. She has been through hell. I would hazard a guess that she has other problems that don’t stem from what happen seven years ago. And it makes me sad that the situation she found herself in has resulted in her state since then. I hope she can move on. I just don’t think it’s fair that a man’s life has been destroyed in the process, when all he did, by all accounts, was make a mistake.
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Well said Cate & Amen to you A Man & Tim McIntyre & Tara – any more want to come out of the woodwork?
Concerned & Lulu : No crime was committed here – this was NOT rape or sexual abuse – Clare was an adult, and as adults we are all responsible for the decisions we make, regardless of how foolish and fearless we are.
I think it’s apalling how many women go straight on the attack when it comes to these types of situations – it makes us seem less credible – honestly ladies, it really does.
Not all women have been brought up with the same morals, beliefs & values as you – some women really are just NRL groupie sluts – being a groupie is nothing new – I bet The Rolling Stones ‘ran a train’ on Bebe Buell.
So many of you jumped to the defence of this ‘poor young girl’ – hell, if she had made a decision to kill someone you wouldn’t be feeling sorry for her – she would be tried as an adult for the decision she made.
Be responsible for your decisions and your actions – ‘Being and Adult 101′
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Cate,
It is clear that the police are not taking it any further because no crime was committed.
It is clear that some women (stupidly, I believe) put themselves in that position.
It is also acceptable that some people enjoy group sex. Although, I would hazzard a guess that they are in the minority.
It is not acceptable, however, for a powerful group, such as the NRL to promote a practice that is not only unsafe for it’s participants but also morally degrading to the people involved. All of the people, those acting it out and the person on the receiving end.
Whether or not all participants were consensual, and whether or not “Clare” bragged about it afterwards is of no issue. The act is unsavoury and not a sexual activity that should be encouraged or seen as normal, safe or respectful. To anyone.
These men are looked up to by children and young adults. There is a responsibility to be courteous and respectful at all times.
We create these role models, so we need to insist on how they are to behave.
In my eyes, a positive role model is someone who can look out for other people, even if they are not legally obliged to do so.
If an intoxicated young woman is putting herself into a dangerous situation I would expect a positive role model to help her out of it. Rather than, say “Cool, she’s up for it, it’s legal, no problem”
If they can’t do the decent thing, they have no right to be a role model and should not be appearing on out tv screens as such.
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