KT says:
March 15, 2010 at 10:15 pm
Amber, i’m ...
Does being a size 14 make you fat? REALLY?
In her blog, Fear & Clothing, Australian journalist Mindy Laube writes…
The average Australian woman is 5'4" (163 centimetres) and a size 14.
These dimensions may be typical but they do not make a woman normal,
they make her FAT.
Arguing
that societal norms ought be drawn from the commonplace without regard
for merit is completely indefensible and we wouldn't apply the same
logic to any other circumstances. Crime is a common occurrence but
being a bad one, we continue to fight it. Same goes for fat. Excess
weight is an undesirable condition from every aspect. Pretending
otherwise doesn't change that. It just encourages complacency and dress
size creep.
I won't bother with tired arguments about optimal health outcomes,
if those worked obesity wouldn't be an issue. I'm making an aesthetic
argument. As a nation we've let ourselves go something shocking.
Looking around the local pool while enjoying an Indian summer swim
at the weekend, I couldn't help but notice how many of the teenage
girls and young women in my midst were distinctly overweight. I was
certain that this wasn't the case when I was a teenager, so when I got
home I pulled out my high school year book and checked my memories.
Sure enough in a graduating class of 250 mixed race students of varied
socio-economic backgrounds there was just one fat girl. No overweight
boys, of course; they hardly existed back then. Then I looked at the
staff photos. Of 70 teachers, none of whom was under 40, once again,
just one of them is obviously fat. Astonishing. Try saying that about
the average high school faculty these days.
So what's changed since the 80s? Multiple explanations abound:
increased consumption of processed foods, less incidental exercise,
junk food ads, greater alcohol intake, even low-fat food! Undoubtedly,
these phenomena are all material to the situation but while they may
explain the how, they don't address the why. Post-war prosperity has
ensured the availability and affordability of more food than we need
for over 60 years but it's only in the past 20 that we've seen a surge
in obesity.
She goes on to conclude:
The body is a temple, it requires maintenance. Supersizing it
strains its structural integrity making it misshapen and prone to
collapse.
So, no. A fat body is not a normal body. It's an aberration that we
countenance to the detriment of our looks, health and self-esteem.
Shifting the aesthetic goal posts to normalise a disproportionately
high fat-to-muscle ratio on the basis of that figure type's ubiquity is
equivalent to rewriting home building regulations to accommodate shoddy
workmanship. Prevalence is no justification for acceptance. On average,
Australians are not normal. We're fat. And if we don't start doing
something about it soon, the Lucky Country will one day be better known
as the Fugly Country.
Them's fightin' words! Surely we can have this conversation without only acknowledging the extremes? Is anyone suggesting that obesity or mobid obesity is desireable, least of all those who are that size? Not from where I'm standing. I've never seen the issue of body disatisfaction as being seperate or in any way contradictory to addressing the issue of obesity. But does calling people fat really help? I think I've officially asked more questions than I've answered.
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When somebody else’s kid is a bully…
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Overweight celebrities like Dawn French promote obesity. Oh totally.
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Is it possible to ‘diet yourself fatter’?
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Would you rather be fat or….?
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Does this look like a bad role model to you? A pro-obesity campaign?
Workerbee you hit the nail on the head for me!
I’m in my mid-20s and work freelance in major events production which often means I can work up to 16 + hours a day. This means loads of coffeee, quick sugarloaded 4PM fixes, store-bought meals eaten at my desk for both lunch and dinner (that’s if you can even eat kicking on that kind of adenalin) and a huge drinking cuture in the office (including weeknights) to ‘manage’ the stress of the job.
For example, the last 6 month contract I worked on I walked into the office being a 175cm healthy and fit size 14 and by the end of it, having worked these ridiculously stupid hours, I am now a 16 pushing an 18 and feel like utter crap!
I wouldn’t have called myself fat at the 14, but now I am definitely a total heffare and terribly unhealthy! Even the thinner girls (size 8-10 for reference) in the office suffered the same fate.
At the end of the day, it’s about health not how you look aesthetically, however if you’re not healthy chances are you don’t look so good either. Consequently there also goes your self esteem, your smile and your normally happy disposition down the toilet and there is nothing gorgeous about that.
So what do we do? Perhaps time for a career change ;o)
I completely empathise with Kate, who said that “I am not lazy but I am insanely busy. I eat well but I do eat too much.” While I haven’t had to find time in my life or room in my body for babies yet, I found that the transition from uni & part time work to full time work has made staying slim AND fit so much harder. I think it’s important to emphasise the “fit” part too, because while we all like to look good, we can forget that there’s actually a whole heap of health reasons to stay slim too (e.g. more weight retained around the belly = higher risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, and stroke; plus even skinny girls can have unseen problems with the “disproportionately high fat-to-muscle ratio” that Ms Laube refers as becoming too common these days.)
Working late at the office, the dinners provided are often fried or covered in unhealthy sauces etc to make them taste more appealing. And when you’re snowed under with work, with no time for the gym, the pep-me-up-and-make-me-feel-better biscuit jar is just a few steps away.
Add to that the fact that socialising outside of work has become pretty centred on eating and drinking, and it’s one big recipe for disaster. The waistband of my pants is stretching in agreement.
An upside of the current economic climate in the corporate world is that the ridiculous number of hours worked per week has dropped back to a reasonable level for a lot of us – perhaps we’ll finally have time for a more balanced approach to work/body.
I’m 165 cm tall and now I’m an 8-10. In some designer’s ranges, I’m more like a 10-12, because I have boobs and a curvy tummy.
I was very sick a couple of years ago and unable to do any exercise. I also ate for the far more active person I used to be.
I got to a size 12-14 and I considered myself to be fat. The clothes I wanted to wear didn’t look right on me. I was out of proportion.
I have friends who are much taller and are beautiful, healthy, in proportion size 14s. They are not fat and I wouldn’t even consider them at size 14 to be fat.
However, me at 14 was fat. No other word to describe it.
fat people are fat. skinny people are skinny. you know by looking at someone whether you consider them to be fat or skinny. or too fat or too skinny.
i’m getting sick of everyone couching overweight/obesity or underweightedness in politically correct terms. everyone is so afraid of offending someone that the truth is getting hidden. be honest! curvy/voluptuous and svelte are becoming massively overused euphemisms.
I am so sick of this stuff. My husband insists on saying I am obese (rather than overweight or fat) because it is a scientific fact. I am a size 16-20 depending on the brand, 181cm tall and 102 kilos after 3 babies in 4 years, and a decade of yo-yoing. I get so sick of the judgment associated with being larger. People assume you are lazy and eat badly.
I am not lazy but I am insanely busy. I eat well but I do eat too much. I have been going to the gym now for 8 months and have lost 10 kilos. I feel fantastic but still being large I still get these negative judegements directed my way. Heaps of women at my gym are the same – strong and healthy but outside of the gym you would never know how hard they work at being healthy. People should be aware at how flawed their impressions of people can be.
I do think the cultural issue should be addressed as obesity is certainly a problem, but the body issue stuff is just as important (I felt fat when I weighed a healthy 72kg), and thin friends of mine have just as many negative feelings about their bodies as I do – many of the women I know measure their self worth by their dress size or weight, always striving for an elusive number at which they’ll be happy.
GeorgiaSweet, I agree weight seems to be a cruel socio-economic indicator. It’s a generalisation, but it is now a proven scientific fact.
The reason I raised the socio-economic issue, is because I hope the Body Advisory Board is not going to only consider the self-esteem issue of the media on skim milk latte sipping city slickers. (No offence, I love a good latte in the city, but I’m making generalisations to try to make a point)I hope the BAB will keep in mind the implication on health of all Aussies, almost half whom are considered overweight or obese.
I happen to have 2 familty members, one who has suffered from a serious eating disorder and another who works as a social worker in the field of obesity in children. I understand the implications on both sides. Whist the ‘feelings’ and self esteem of one group is important and affects a significant number of individuals and families as a mental health issue, the other regarding childhooh obesity, affects more and more families and poses serious health concerns for a growing number of Australians. Diabetes, heart disease etc At a YOUNG age.
I guess I’m trying to say, should the self esteem of the skim milk latte drinking community who feels bad because their size 12 jeans aren’t a size 10 or 8, yield more power over messages of what the overweight be reminded is normal and could ultimately save their life???
Rachael_S, you are right about bodies on different beaches. I’ve always found this interesting.
I live in the eastern suburbs and visit the beach a lot. There is definitely a different vibe at each city beach but the overall body shape is small to medium.
However, this is vastly different to a beach I also go to regularly, north of Wollongong. On weekends and public holidays this particular beach gets a lot of visitors from the outer western suburbs and Campbelltown. Reason being that it is quicker for them to get to the Illawarra than the city beaches.
Anyway, on these very busy days the vast majority of bathers of all ages are markedly overweight. So much so that I’m thinking Patrick Demarchelier shound go THERE and take photos.
But putting aside the aesthetics of fat v. thin, it makes me sad. Weight seems to be some sort of cruel socio-economic indicator: mostly healthy active children in Sydney’s east and too many morbidly obese children from the west. I rarely venture over the bridge so I don’t know about the disinfected youth of the north, but I bet they are comparatively healthy too.
Most unhealthy children are not that way through choice. It seems to me that many parents may be ignorant about this very basic level of care (ie, nourishment of growing bodies).
“You gotta let it all hang out, fat-bottomed girls you make the rocking world go round.”
Point taken that Ms Murdoch is well connected in the media and fashion industry.
Point also taken that she is a high-profile figure who is likely to get the issue attention in the media (a tried and true PR stunt).
But the fact remains that her appointment to the Body Image Board has alienated a number of women (well at least judging by some of the comments here and thank god I’m not alone in my misgivings).
You’d think this is sort of contrary to the aims of the board, wouldn’t you?
I’m trying to put my finger on why her presence on the board irritates me so much.
There’s something disingenuous about a person who represents an unattainable feminine ideal saying we shouldn’t be influenced by those ideals.
Maybe it’s deliberately inflammatory when a person born with beauty and married into privilege tries to speak for the “every woman”.
Maybe it’s just personal.
Anyhow, I am so looking forward to hear what Mia has to say about this. Hurry up and post!
Re: Sarah Murdoch.
I don’t think any one on the advisory group need to prove they have been ‘fat’ as a pre-requisite. As Georgiasweet pointed out even ‘gorgeous’ women like Cari Otis have body image issues.
Sarah (as Mia has pointed out) will bring experience and ideas for what is happening in the modelling/fashion/marketing arena.
She also has a high profile, which will assist in raising the profile of this issue and may have some influence on some powerful people. (Networks people, it’s all about networks)
The participants on this board (IMO) need skills in consultation, policy development, advocacy and doing media releases/interviews etc to raise the profile of this issue.
Who are we? Working? Mothers? Comfortable financially? Where do most shop? Target? David Jones? Designer? Kmart?
Posted by: Rachel_s | March 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM
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Speaking for myself: working non-mother, late 30s, semi-comfortable financially, renting in a city-fringe suburb (could never afford to buy here), shops Myer mostly and Target occasionally.
Can the Body Image Advisory Group please factor in the differnce in attitudes between lower, middle and upper classes??? Please.
If you go to the beaches and swimming pools I frequent in your size 14 tankini, then you’ll go home feeling great about yourself, as most other women there are in boardies and a rashie or large t-shirt to cover thier size.
I’m curious as to the socio-economic cross section of Mamamia fans, as I’m shocked by the number of people who don’t see size 14 as the norm a problem. I guess I’m not thinking of mothers women in their late 20s and 30s, but look at the average teenager or girl in her early 20s.And remember ‘average’. Not average Bondi Sydneysider or a middle class Melbourne city girl. Go to the AVERAGE Australian shopping centre. That should be the gauge.
I’d love you to do a survey Mia? Who are we? Working? Mothers? Comfortable financially? Where do most shop? Target? David Jones? Designer? Kmart?
Who are we?
Well I bounce between a size 12 and 14..depending on how the clothing fits.
I even fitted into a size 10 the other day (weird, I know) which is probably my goal size (Go SES!).
I dont consider myself FAT. I consider myself to have a very womanly body.
But I think shopping for our shape is a pain in the ass. You have to make sure you dont have a muffin top..etc etc etc. I find myself always adjusting my clothes throughout the day.
The trick to looking like a sexy curvy mama is the way you dress. Unfortunately the smaller you are, the better clothes fit on you.
If you look at paintings of women in the Victorian ages, they looked at LEAST a size 12, if that. Softer, fuller, “more to love” was considered beautiful.
Nowadays, if you cant bounce a 20cent coin off your abs, your in trouble.
Are we fat? I dunno. Maybe a little. But I’m working on that Mia, I’m working on it..
Or maybe we are more like we are supposed to be?
Women are not SUPPOSED to have hard, lean bodies. Our bodies are supposed to be softer.
I thought you would all like this quote from Patrick Demarchelier who has photographed all the super models, Princess of Wales etc:
“Recently I was in Rio on the beach and I was struck by how beautiful young, very fat women are. I mean really obese. So I did a lot of pictures of young, fat girls, with loads of love handles and big bottoms…Real Botero-style women. It really does look good.”
So true “therealsydney” … Why is it somehow worse to offend a fat person? I believe that may be part of the issue though. Because people are so worried about saying anything to begin with the fat person thinks maybe its not be quite so noticable after all and thats how it all begins. I know in Asia for example and many other cultures there are less issues with pointing out if you have gained or lost a few kilos!!! Everyone comments! But then they don’t have our weight loss epidemic either! I think we should care enough to say something.
Great comment(s) Amy. Calling a spade a spade, why them’s almost courtin’ words to me. I like the cut of your jib.
Do you know what is interesting about this? From a scientific stand point, human beings are actually growing in size in general, and I am not talking about body fat.
Yes, there are issues around over nutrition, but even if that aspect were removed, human beings in this generation would still be bigger (bones, musculature etc), than the previous generations.
Babies are getting bigger now too. When I was born a 5lb baby was pretty average, and not average baby weights are at least 7lb, and more likely more.
Theories about why this happens are varied, but body shape is absolutely not always to do with what you eat or how much you exercise.
On the weekend SBS showed an EXCELLENT doco on body image where a wide range of body types got their kit off. Forgotten the title and exact date, sorry. Can anyone help?
Anyway, the subjects ranged from Carre Otis (1980s model, in Wild Orchid, very beautiful) through to an attractive woman with a mastectomy, a woman who wanted the world to see her as a man, an obese woman and a man with dysfunctional legs.
The whole program was deeply moving. One of the (many) things I took away from it was how insecure Carre Otis is about her body. It reinforced for me my belief that even beautiful women can have insecurities about their bodies, just different ones from most of us. Especially if their appearance is considered their main achievement. How awful for them when they realised they’ve been superseded.
Even so, I think it is problematic to appoint someone like Sarah Murdoch (who has built a career on the good luck of being born pretty) to feature in any official thinktank or advisory panel relating to body image. Especially if she has never had a struggle with an unhealthy amount of body weight. Judging from many of the comments on Mamamia, a lot of women distrust her ability to truely understand the issue. She is clearly well qualified make clothes look good in photos, but not this.
On the other hand, Kate Ellis is also very beautiful but seems to have more credibility. I am supposing this is because despite being naturally lovely to look at, she has never used this as a central motif for her life. She has a degree in international relations from Flinders Uni and has chosen a career in politics. Also, she exudes a healthy, more accessible type of beauty. Not an unattainable one.
At the other extreme, I think it would be difficult to have someone who is obviously overweight or unealthy on the panel either. Although I imagine that someone who has BEEN overweight but has truely overcome the condition would be an excellent addition.
I did promise to answer everyone’s questions about the Body Image Advisory Group on a blog and I keep meaning to. Haven’t forgotten.
Will post before the end of the week.
Let me get this straight.
Advisory Board is about sending positive images of women in the media.
Fact: More acute womens health issues are related to obesity rather than severe dieting (anorexia.
Fact. This article written by Mindy is saying we are a fat nation and people want to change the goalposts of what a health weight is?
Fact: Most readers are pissed off if size 14 is to be considered fat, even though this generation is the fattest generation that has ever lived.
Fact: I am a size 14, fit and healthly. ITS NOT PERSONNAL!! We ARE a fat nation. If you are not happy about that, do something, but don’t take it personnally.
HANG ON A MINUTE! Vanessa, just because someone thinks we are becoming a fat nation does not mean that she must be a “skinny bitch”. I’m not skinny and I agree with Mindy.
While many of these readers may be size 14 or plus, were you that size at 12-14 years of age? Because many young kids are overweight today, around 1 in every 3 kids. That is a concern. I’m f…in worried.My daughter goes to a dance school which I call with friends ‘Dancing for the Obese’, because fair dinkum, about 9 out of 10 there are overweight.Scary!! We go there because I don’t want my daughter to get caught up in the competitive dance scene, so we drive to the neareest ‘bogan’ part of town for dance lessons.
Observation. (They call themselves ‘bogans’ to my ‘posh’ and ’snobby’ dress & residence.I have no tats you see.And i have a job)These people certainly don’t seem to have the body issues and hang-ups as more educated, middle and upper class people i know.
Question.Are these body issues mainly in the middle and upper classes?
Anorexia is well documented to exist pre-dominately in supportive, loving and middle to upper class families.
Size 14 can be healthy if you’re tall (and presumably your BMI is cool). The weight is more evenly distributed on the body. But I would imagine many size 14s are a bit on the unhealthy and possibly tubby side.
Sorry, I’m not a scientist / dietician etc. but that’s just me being honest.
I’m in agreement with the Sarah Murdoch thing … I don’t believe that you can truly represent or speak on an issue that you have never experienced or have no strong personal connection with – it’s not authentic.
And yes, it does seem somewhat hypocritical that she is now hosting ANTM – great point kzmet.
I’m a size 10 – been a size 10 since I was 18 – never had body image issues – alot of women are happy to tell me “you’re skinny” – what would happen if I told someone who was a size 14 or 16 “you’re a bit fat!” – it wouldn’t be generally accepted as appropriate social behaviour.
I have a girlfriend who is 6ft 1 – no one has a problem with telling her how TALL she is or cracking jokes about her height.
I have another girlfriend who is really short and noone has a problem with telling her how tiny she is … or making short jokes.
I have another girlfriend who is fat …. she went for a blood test and they couldn’t find the vein … the nurse said “it’s because you’re too fat” & everyone was up in arms !! how could the nurse say such a thing ? she was just being honest – my friend is too fat.
Why do we try so hard not to offend fat people? or why is it somehow worse to offend a fat person?
Ok so in a round-a-bout way she’s making the point that being “fat” is being unhealthy but why tow the line at size 14/ 163 cms (which are my exact measurements!)?
Yes, the more weight you carry, the more health risks etc but some size 14s are just never going to be a size 8, like some size 8s might never become a size 14.
I’m vegetarian, no processed food, no butter/ marg, rice milk, wholegrain pasta etc… quit smoking, drink alcohol rarely and exercise around 4 times a week. So technically I’m “fat” and unhealthy yet the perception a size 8 who smokes, drinks and eats sh*t is healthy- well that just doesn’t add up to me!
Aha, this is a topic that’s been dear to my heart for a long time and one that I have discussed extensively with my friends because none of us can work out the mixed messages being sent out by governments and councils, body image consultants/panels, clothing designers and god knows who else
So much has changed over the past few years that affects our lifestyle. Just look at where a lot of us live now. Apartments/flats, houses on smaller plots of land, less room for kids to muck around and play because backyards are smaller or non existent. Parents scared to let their kids play on the street…kids who no longer ride their bikes or walk to school. How many parents plan their day around driving to and from school these days? There’s more concentration on quick meals, kids looking after themselves for longer periods of time, less time spent at the dining table eating the old “meat and three veg” dinners. Now, in many instances, the dinner’s out of a pack, a tin or a container of some sort and thrown into the microwave. When was the last time someone actually made something from scratch? Why, even the design of many inner city apartments now don’t cater for people who cook, with just kitchenettes included in the design.
Local councils and governments promote healthy living, telling us to get out and “move” more…then go ahead and approve massive housing developments with dwellings taking up entire blocks of land and market it as a “lifestyle choice”… and in tough economic times, the sales of fast/convenience food, goes up. Go figure.
How many of us drive 1 kilometre to the nearest shop, rather than walk?
Look, what Minday says may have some truth in some instances, but she’s putting it as a black and white argumentit with no grey areas.
Being a size 14-16 might mean you’re fat, in the pure sense of the word…but it doesn’t mean you’re not fit or healthy gorgeous.
Well in my opinion Mindy must be naturally gifted with a svelte, unblemished figure.
I’m 167cms and a size 14-16 (depending on the cut of the garment and the brand). It’s not something I set out to do and I certainly don’t like to think I work hard maintaining my “unhealthy” physique. Au Contraire, i work-out (love my spin classes) and eat well. I’m always educating my kids on eating right and making healthy choices and it shits me that Mindy can validate negative views on body shape. My fiance thinks I’m hot and that floats my boat! I would like to decrease my girth but I’m not going to go crazy with fad diets to achieve it.
So size 14 is overweight. Yep… Most girls in that category are only too aware of that. It is, however, a personal choice as to whether we go about effecting change.
Mindy is much like the “skinny bitches” as far as I’m concerned. Tough love doesn’t always work and someone is going to walk away from that article feeling just a little bit more ashamed about who she is.
- Vee
I made a comment in the first article Mia posted about being on the advisory panel as I have an issue with Sarah Murdoch being on it too because:
a) as you guys( heyjude and mich et al) say, how could she possibly know what it is like to have a less than perfect body?
b) She is hosting Australia’s Next Top Model, which is a show that actively promotes self loathing through judging women on their perceived attractiveness and beauty.
Why has no one on the panel raised these issues with her? why did she accept the role?
Thanks Mich for discussing changes to lifestyle/community/working parents/fewer homecooked meals etc. I was going to add that.
In order to debate this issue, we all/ everyone needs to do away with personal issues of weight and self and people represented by the likes of Sarah Murdoch. It is not about that. The issue is much greater.
The issue is our culture. Look at the photogragh at the top of this page again. Is this size 14 image, the one that we want to represents our Australian culture?? If you go to the SMH and read this article in full, you will see that the author raises these issues in comparison to the culture in France. The issue is not to be one of weight v. self-esteem, but rather health and acceptance of our over-indulgant and more sedentry lifestyle.Life . Be in it Australia. Get fit. Get out. Run. Play. Live. Enjoy. And the benifits will follow.
Observation. A beach off the coast of a big town. Husband observed that my toned Size 14 body was the smallest by far amongst about 30 other women. Very sad indeed.
Observation. Trendy holiday beach one week later. I was the largest amonst another 30 women who obviously went to the gym regularly and had had surgery.(e.g. had the 6mth old baby on the hip of a model type. You get the idea.) Message.Socio-economics is clearly a factor and this image was WIERD. The bodies on these women was clearly not the norm. This was an extreme. However, these toned smaller bodies would have been the norm in the 70s and 80s.
Yes, we certainly are becoming a fat nation. Take the focus off the individual and put it on the nation!
So much judgement. So awful. This all makes me very sad. Size 14 does not necessarily mean not attractive. How can people say that. I could go on but I won’t. Jesus Christ it’s all very unhelpful.
I totally agree with what Lu said – its about being healthy, not thin. Although I do think that weight is enerally a good indicator of health.
I am 163cm, and if I was size 14 I would definitely be overweight. I currently weight 62kg, and usually wear a size 10. According to BMI, if I gained just 3kg I’d be overweight, and I still doubt I’d be big enough for a size 14.
That said, they say muscle weighs more than fat – 2 years ago I weighed the same but wore a size 12. I’m a lot fitter and more muscular now. So maybe there is something to think about there. Although that kinda backs up the argument – I was less healthy and looked fatter, even though my weight was the same.
It’s all very thought provoking.
I guess it depends where you are coming from.
As a size 16 heading for 14, I’ll be happy when I get there. I’m guessing a size 12 heading up to 14 wouldn’t be so happy.
I’ve never liked BMI but I’m an apple shape (big belly, no arse) so mine’s never gonna be great even in a healthy weight range for my height.
I don’t think calling people fat will help. We all know what we look like. We know what we want to look like. It’s up to us to try and make them the same thing.
Body mass index (BMI) is a measure of body fat based on height and weight that applies to both adult men and women.
it is calculated by dividing your weight (in kg) by your height (in metres )squared.
BMI Categories:
Underweight = <18.5
Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
Overweight = 25-29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater
However, although the BMI is useful for healthy adults (ages 20 to 65 years), it does not apply to infants, children, adolescents, pregnant or breastfeeding women, endurance athletes, highly muscular people and adults over 65 years of age
Hi, your BMI is your weight in kilos divided by your height in centimetres squared. For example, I am 73 kilos and 171cm. 171 cm2 = 2.924. So my BMI is 73 divided by 2.924 = 24.9. I think the guidelines say a BMI of under 20 is underweight, 20-25 is healthy, 25-30 is overweight and 30+ is obese. But google BMI for more details, this is just what my personal trainer told me.
Heyjude, brilliant comment:
“I can’t help thinking there is something just wrong about someone like Sarah Murdoch, blessed with a perfectly proportioned body – even after babies -preaching about how we should accept our physical imperfections.
I don’t know if it’s just me, but when I see Sarah Murdoch I don’t feel good about my body. When I see Sarah Murdock I feel very very bad about my body. So what’s she doing telling me I should accept myself?”
I agree with you 100%.
Hello peoples, some excellent comments here already, and I do agree the key point is the height+weight issue. BMI is a reasonable indicator (but only an indicator) of health. If you are a not an athlete or a weight trainer, and your BMI is over 25, you are probably overweight. Having body pride is one thing, and to be applauded. Having health issues is not. When weight affects health, it should be remedied. I was shocked to be told by my doctor last year that if i wanted to be pregnant, the best thing i could do was lose 10 kilos for hte health of both me and the bub. At 171 cm and 85kg, I was clinically overweight. Now at 73 kilos I am in a healthy range. It took a year of Weight Watchers and exercise but i did it.. Make the choice people – how do you and your kids want to live?
I must say I tend to agree with the article and many of the posts.
Just because everyone is carrying too much weight (a result our sedentary lifestyle and over-abundance of food) does not make it normal.
But … I also have issues with the Body Image Group and similar initiatives.
I don’t have any problem with the idea of promoting healthy body images but I have to ask: why must a group which supposedly is set up to make women feel better about their bodies be headed by exactly the sort of people who make us feel bad about ourselves?
I can’t help thinking there is something just wrong about someone like Sarah Murdoch, blessed with a perfectly proportioned body – even after babies -preaching about how we should accept our physical imperfections.
I don’t know if it’s just me, but when I see Sarah Murdoch I don’t feel good about my body. When I see Sarah Murdock I feel very very bad about my body. So what’s she doing telling me I should accept myself?
I recall another model, Tara Moss, was also an ambassador for eating disorders at some stage (please correct me if I’m wrong).
I mean, what are people thinking? Is it some cruel trick? Gross lack of sensitivity? Or misguided good intentions?
I alone in this?
Could someone explain the BMI thingy to me please? (By the way, I would LOVE to be a size 14!!)
Rachel_S raises some interesting points. I think we also need to consider the lifestyle changes since the 70s and 80s:
- higher disposable income together with greater numbers of both parents working therefore less focus on nutritious home-cooked meals in favour of quick takeaways
- loss of community values and sense of neighbourhood safety driving children indoors to computers/TV/playstations as opposed to riding their bikes and playing cricket all afternoon
- fundamental changes in the way children are educated these days… less of the tough love and hard marking and more touchy feely ‘no-one is a failure’ approach… case in point – my niece’s birthday party featured a pass-the-parcel with a gift in every layer of paper… what the???
Anyway, this long-winded post is simply saying that lifestyles have changed and so too will body shapes and general health standards and more importantly, our attitudes towards them, hence the young girls “parading” around in tightfitting clothes etc. It seems to me that it is harder to achieve the ideal body shape / weight than ever… good on you to those who can do it, but its damn hard for the greater population, obviously.
Wow, I have so much to say on this topic, many issues to address. Where to start????
I have worked as a high school teacher for over 15 years ( please don’t hold the spelling and grammar against me as i have 3 small children and a frequently absent husband. My mind is presently shot.)and have worked at a number different schools of varying socio-economic backgrounds. Over the years i have been making a number of observations… so much to say..where to start.
1. First thing is, I get this article and the point she is making. I agree.
2. Observation. At the swimming carnival every year, the student are getting fatter and fatter. Boys and girls. Kids who in the 70s and 80s were considered normal are now being called skinney. They are what HEALTHY was in the 70 and 80s.
3. Observation. MANY girls and boys at swimming carnivals parade around in their gear, with bellies overhanging and large breasts bursting out of size 16 bikinis. I too think that it is great for these students to feel confident with thier bodies. However over the past few years, there are clearly more and more of these large students parading around proud (great for self-esteem), however you can clearly see that if they are this size at 13-17 then what chance do they have of good health in the future. Esp. the girls after 1 or 2 kids!! These kids have the baby belly NOW!
4.Observation. The lower the socio-economic group, the larger/fatter the child. The good schools do have by far, more healthy looking kids than the students of schools in poorer communities. This is a major issue.
5. So much more to say, but I must go, the kids are calling!
I think it is up to everyone to take responsibilty for their health, and if they want to, their appearance. We are not designed to be as sedentary as we are. It is unnatural to sit still in an office for hours and days on end. It is unnatural to consume food as processed as we do. Obesity,heart disease, diabetes and certain cancers are on the rise in direct response to this kind of lifestyle. I hate watching the human race become so dough-like. Diets don’t work, exercise should be part of everyones life. It’s really simple. We are getting bigger and trying to explain it away. Obviously there is a huge range of normal, and being 163 cm and size 14 is just that for some people. If people actually do the most they can to be healthy the most of the time… they can set good examples for their kids.
Mia, Mia, Mia you have got your hands full with your Body Image Advisory Group. The arguments are endless!!! But I think it will be useful for you to consider them all.
Do you know when you will have succeeded? When there are no more discussions to have, when there is no more talk of fat, thin, BMI etc. When we are all just people distinguished by our characters not our size or looks.
But until then, there are many hurdles to get over. One of them is being able to convince us that normal looks good.
If normal means an unhealthy fat ratio (and the side effects that go with it, fat in the wrong places, poor complexions etc), then I think we are in trouble and I don’t think any of us are going to buy it.
If normal means various shapes and sizes, but well toned bodies, glowing complexions and sparkly eyes then it will become a lot easier to convince us that normal is good. And it is something positive to aspire to.
This is where I think arguments like Mindy’s can be helpful. Take away the fighting words, and the angry sentiment and there are some points that should be useful to you in working out how we can sell normal, so that we are happy with ourselves.
By the way, I don’t really like to look at magazines for fashion tips and advice because the images are always too contrived for my taste. I do like to look at http://www.thesartorialist.blogspot.com He travels the world photographing real people he sees on the street who have a sense of style. We get to see all age groups, and though I don’t see a lot of overweight people there are people of different sizes, shapes and heights, as well as wrinkles, grey hairs, stately noses and the like. (Mind you he does take a lot of photos outside fashion shows and I am sure some of them are models, but I can overlook that)
What I am trying to say is I get inspired by these people, not intimidated like I often do from magazines or red carpet shots. These are normal people who look really good and I know that I can be like them too if I want. (Ok, some of them would have huge bank balances and terrific wardrobes which help, but we’re talking body image here, not wardrobe envy)
I am getting pretty sick of the media and body perception at the moment. Whether too skinny or too fat, it seems nobody knows what normal is anymore. I have read Who mag religiously every week since its inception, its my 30 mins of silly time every friday and I love it. But this weeks issue actually made me decide Ive had enough. It was the “body issue” and it had women of different ages and types and how they feel about their bodies. Great- except EVERY SINGLE ONE WAS A SIZE 8….except Kate Cebrano size 12-14…even a pregnant Jessica Rowe is 8 but goes up to a ginormous size 12 when pregnant.
Its crap, I dont care if being a 14 is bad for you and means you are going to die early,its just not a fair representation of women in general.
Aesthically speaking, personally I would be perfect at size 12 for me, because anything smaller than that and I look like an inverted triangle on two tiny sticks, not a good look as far as I am concerned. Yet my own daughter is very petite like her paternal grandmother so what is good for her will never be the same as what is good for me.
I am just over all these generalities and whitewashing..especially by people involved in the fashion industry its much much cheaper and easier after all to manufacture a size 10 dress than a size 16 so of course they are wanting us all in smaller sizes better profit margin.
My waist is over 80 cms that makes me fat, I see soo many fat kids and teenagers and to be honest it makes me sick. Fat usually comes about from being lazy/having bad eating habits. I think Mindy is just telling it how it is.
Wow, this article pissed me off when I read it last week.
Over the last two years I’ve lost ten kilos, and put 3/4 of it back on. I saw a dietitian, quit smoking and worked my arse off. Turns out I had a thyroid problem. More fool me! What was my motivation? Looking good for my boyfriend, and realising that I was getting a bit older, and if I left it any later it would be too hard.
I am 152cm and 66kg. Technically overweight. But I am the healthiest I’ve ever been. I run, and do weights, I walk to and from work everyday, and my legs are my main form of transport.
I’m 32 and am fairly comfortable with where my body is at, but could never have predicted it’s behaviour over the last few years. I am shocked at how people became nicer to me when I lost the weight. Would it have been different if they had known that it was caused by disease?
This whole thing needs to be about how we feel and how healthy we are, not about aesthetics. People have different kinds of figures, some more round and lush, others angular and slim..it just is.
Health needs to be the focus.
Are you healthy?
Do you have a balanced diet?
Do you exercise regularly?
Can you sprint for the bus and not choke?
Can you pick up heavy bags and children and carry them around without getting tired?
These are the important issues. Not how you look in an overpriced, mass produced frock.
At first I was horrified. Now, I am not so sure.
I am 5′6″ and a size 14. My BMI is at the higher end of the healthy scale. I’d love to lose a bit of blubber.
Am I fat? No. Am I bigger and carrying more fat than when I was a size 8, pre-children and menopause? Yes. Some is genetic, the rest is lifestyle.
I have what is these days considered an active lifestyle, but if I look at what I was doing 5 years ago, I have slowed down. I eat less crap now than then, but I am not as active as I once was.
I may have been to a similar pool to the one Mindy visited. I am seeing a lot more primary school girls shopping for clothes in sizes 16-18 in the ladies section. That is WRONG people!
I don’t care what size someone is, my 2 best mates are size 20+, except when it manifests itself negatively on their health.
I meant ’size’ 4, not ’six 4. I’m not a size 64! Not even when I’ve got the painters in! Ha!
Well, if Mindy’s right, at least there’s no such thing as ‘the fat girl’ anymore. Because apparently, we’re all ‘the fat girl’!
There’s probably something in what she’s saying, but at the same time, she’s saying it in such a black and white way that’s it not sitting comfortably with me. Like Carm says – we all know obesity’s an issue, (I do find it hard to believe that it’s more of an issue here than in the UK, or U.S, though). But is it helpful to call size 14 fat? I range from size 12 to occasionally 14 on any given day, which depends on what label I’m wearing, where I’m at hormonally, etc. I probably haven’t been size 8 or 10 since I was aged 8 or 10! I could lose some weight, but I’m also pretty fit and healthy. Being on the tall side of average helps. While like everyone, I’d like to be a few kilos lighter, I don’t really consider myself fat. I consider myself kind of average, because most women I know of the same age are around the same size – if not heavier. I think it’s ok to feel that way, too.
So shouldn’t it be more about the overall picture – emotional, as well as physical? I think low self esteem is very fattening, because if it’s one thing that makes your ass look fat, it’s banging on about how fat you are! Most of us are a work in progress. But ‘fats ain’t fats’. Lots of people who are a size 14 just really couldn’t, and shouldn’t, be called fat, in my opinion. To measure health and beauty by a person’s dress size really is unhealthy.
And even though I agree with you in some ways Amy , about ‘fat’ just being a word – all I can say is this: it is if you’re not fat! There are so many negative connotations to the word, that unfortunately, the word ‘fat’ = the word ‘unattractive’, when it’s in relation to appearance. And worse, to some people. However ‘thin’ does not neccessarily mean attractive anymore, either.
But you’re right about one thing – we will always have this debate!
Oh yeah – I bought some American brand jeans on the weekend, they were size 4 or something! I don’t really live my life by the number on the tag, but it does feel good putting something in your wardrobe that has ’sixe 4′ on it!
Also, Mia, in the photo you chose, the mannequin is obviously the “ideal” size 14. Very well proportioned. Which, needless to say, is not all that “usual”. Look at that flat tummy! And the taut butt, and small waist.
Isn’t she just a slightly inflated version of the skinny mannequins behind her?
I’m a size 8, I’m really short, and my tummy looks nowhere like that no matter how much sit-ups and cardio exercise I do!
So what’s the deal with that? Wouldn’t photos like that one only make size 14 girls even more self-conscious because their abs and their upper arms are flabby?
And so I’d like to second Mich’s words that:
“I feel sorry for someone who seems to be so superficial as to feel so strongly about another’s appearance. Let’s just stop obsessing about it and focus on being better people where it counts!”
And that we should all focus on keeping HEALTHY!
“But does calling people fat really help?”
If it did, then there would be far fewer fat people.
Ditto everything Amy & Jaime said!
Believe it or not size 14 can be fat, it depends on the persons height and BMI.
Amy – you hit the nail on the head – amazingly I have nothing to add – you said it all – cheers!
Well said Amy. I agree with a lot of what you’ve written. We are too afraid to call it like it is these days for fear of offence.
Mindy speaks the truth too, but her’s is a more obvious one given the almost constant media reporting of Australia being more fat than America now. No one seems willing to do a whole lot about the problem, other than whinge.
I am the average height, give or take a few cms, and I know that if I got to a size 14, I would consider myself to be fat.
We all have mirrors, we all have choices in what to do with our bodies. A lot of Australians are making the wrong decisions.
The thing that stands out for me is the comment about the teenagers at the pool. Teenagedom is such a state of flux- I remember going from thin to fat and back again- and I was very active and ate well. There were many years were I wouldn’t be caught dead in a bikini- I hated my body. Maybe the author’s experience as a teenager was different from mine, but on reading about the girls at the pool, I was more inclined to applaud them than criticise. The fact that were self-confident enough to wear a bikini, regardless of their size is an indication of fairly healthy self-esteems. You go girls!
I’d love to know where the stats came from- it seems like a blunt instrument to be using in a discussion about the height/ weight of the _entire_ population of Australia. What’s the quote? “Lies, lies and damn statistics…”
I think there is a difference between being healthy and being fashionable.
I eat well and exercise to be healthy, not to be thin and fashionable. I love chocolate and wine and thats why I exercise, so I can enjoy them and remain healthy. I’m 175cm and size 12-14 (depending on the label…), I wouldnt call myself fat or thin, just healthy.
We focus too much on how being thin represents being attractive and how being fat is seen as ugly and how a dress size represents this. I would prefer to be a size 14 who eats fruit, vegies and 3 meals each day and enjoys life, than a size 8 who lives on black coffee and salad and is constantly worried about putting on weight. Where is the quality of life in that ?
You know, Mia, I might be shot for this but here goes:
Firstly, I actually agree with Mindy Laube on many levels. I also find your headline “Does being a size 14 make you fat?” to be very misleading and possibly only stated to stir up a debate!
In actual fact, Mindy didn’t say size 14 is fat, she said “being 163cm tall and size 14 is fat.” There’s a HUGE different there. And to push aside this whole political correctness fiasco for a moment, I think she’s right. Arguably, there are people who are NATURALLY 163cm and size 14. (Just like there are people 180cm tall and size 10, naturally.) But on AVERAGE, that is overweight.
Last weekend Maggie Anderson had a great article on The Age about diet. And she said something I completely agree with, something along the lings of:
“One may argue that it’s not natural, or good, for human to worry so much about what we eat. But then again, it’s also not natural (in the strictest sense of the word) for us to have such abundance of food like we do in the developed nations.”
Mindy mirrors that thought by pointing out the obvious:
“Multiple explanations abound: increased consumption of processed foods, less incidental exercise, junk food ads, greater alcohol intake, even low-fat food!”
Secondly, why is it so offensive to call people fat these day? Why is it that you can say to someone “Oh you’re so skinny!” and can mean it as a compliment, while saying they’re fat is an insult?
Fat or Thin are just descriptive adjectives. Facts. Just like saying, I’m Asian, I’m short, I’ve got black hair.
My theory is, people get offended because the mentality that “Fat is Ugly, Thin is Pretty” is still truly there. No matter how much we’ve banged on that all sizes are beautiful, etc. etc. It reminds me of how calling African people “black” is offensive, while calling Caucasians “white” isn’t? Why is it that “white” considered better than “black”? And if that’s not the case, then why is “black” and “fat” offensive?
So I reckon unless we can learn to call a spade a spade, and change our view so that any spade, thin or fat, is beautiful; we’ll forever have this debate.
What I want to know is “Does being a size 14 make you UNHEALTHY?” In general, are you a healthy BMI if you are a size 14? (I know it all depends on height too)
While I think her comments are unnecessarily inflammatory, she is right in two respects… being a “fat” size 14 is not a good thing and yes, back in my school days the “fat girls” were a minority (although not so minor as 1 in 250!).
Here’s the thing, she is not disputing there can be size 14s who are perfectly healthy… she is just saying that they’re not aesthetically pleasing. Its a pretty narrow viewpoint, because as countless women’s (and men’s) mags have shown, you could put 10 size 14 girls in a room and none will have the same body proportions.
Personally, I feel sorry for someone who seems to be so superficial as to feel so strongly about another’s appearance. Let’s just stop obsessing about it and focus on being better people where it counts!
Well I dont know what pool Mindy lounges around at but the places I go to where bikinis are the norm there are no Size 14 girls or boys… And how can she draw comparisons from one school year book? The area of which the school was based in plays a big factor too. And also weren’t the 80s the beginning of “fast food” and instant gratification? Isn’t it now that we are looking after ourselves and cleaning up the planet… Everybody knows there is an obesity epidemic. I think its a reverse psycology thing personally. Television screams at poor souls on a routine daily basis of every Weightloss trick imaginable. It’s really irritating and only serves to make people feel worse about themselves.