‘They talk to my breasts and draw pictures of them and give them names.’
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I know I've been posting rather often about breast-feeding of late but it's on my brain and takes up a good chunk of my day so, you know, welcome to my world. In my bid to be a more tolerant, Buddhist-like person, I remind myself that it's good there are different kinds of people in the world. Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same. And also? What would we watch on youtube….?
This clip from a UK documentary called Extraordinary Breastfeeding is, well, extraordinary. But also funny although I don't think it was meant to be. After the jump, fast forward twenty years……
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Did you see this story on the news?
The thing that disturbed me the most was the mum saying “I think the child should decide when to give up breastfeeding” and when the girls were asked when they would give it up they replied “Never”. NEVER.
“The will not be breastfeeding when they go to college, or get married”. How about when the go to high school? When they buy their first car? Have sleepovers?
Thank god my mum was normal.
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There’s nothing like a debate on breastfeeding to get the blood boiling!
Looking forward to the nature/nurture debate!
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my friend is living in England, and she said that b/f is not nearly as big there as it is here, it’s very common for people to find it disgusting or even incestuous!! I doubt that this documentary did anything to change that. That family is very odd.
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I don’t disagree with your argument, however the research on what is normal in terms of breastfeeding still isn’t conslusive. For starters, it was done in a context where the “natural weaning age” is affected by societal views such as those expressed here.
Also, considering “normal” according to you and google is anywhere up to 7 years, why on earth would you go to a doctor at age 4? There are real, researched implications of talking later than usual, pls tell me, what are the implications of weaning later?
The US AAP (Academy of pediatricians) states as part of their statement of policy on brastfeeding that BF is NOT detrimental to a child’s psychological development at any age. I actually looked it up on their site – it is quite definite in its stance.
Also, we’re mammals, so it makes sense to compare our *mammalian* characteristics, ie breastfeeding. We don’t hunt for prey anymore, so it doesn’t make sense to compare fur coats or tusks. Pls don’t confuse the argument.
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Nikoleta, I’m not going to dispute the fact that weaning, like walking, talking, sitting or any other developmental stage has a natural age (oh, and since I’m feeling bitchy today, “natural biological” is kind of tautological). However, if your baby is a couple of months older than the upper limit on the “normal” age for walking, talking or sitting, and still isn’t doing so, you’d probably take them to the doctor, because your biological concern as a mother suggests something might be wrong.
Google tells me that although research of other mammals suggests that anywhere between 9 months and 7 years is an acceptable age for weaning, most human children will naturally wean themselves between 3 and 4 years. And really, human children are a much better indication of this than apes/elephants/lions or any other animal (as Zoe pointed out, people are differnt to other animals. Yes, we’re mammals, but we don’t have a full coat of fur/a trunk and tusks/claws and teeth for ripping meat of a carcass). So if your child hasn’t weaned themself by about 4 and a half, then logically, you should be taking them to the doctor, just to make sure everything’s alright. After all, if your baby hasn’t started teething at 8 or 9 months (once again, based on google), you’d probably be getting it checked out.
This woman is still breastfeeding a kid at nearly 8 years old, which is nearly DOUBLE the average natural weaning age of a human baby. I’d say that at this point, even though breast milk is full of nutrients, the fact that most kids decided half a lifetime ago that they’d get them elsewhere, nature doesn’t really intend said nutrients to be coming from breast milk any longer.
Also, you said yourself that certain hormones start wearing off between feeds at about 3 months…maybe that’s biology suggesting that we shouldn’t be breastfeeding as much after that. Not that we should stop at 3 months, but maybe cut back a little.
As you said, you can’t escape your biology. However, if one argues it right, one can use the inescapable biology to prove pretty much anything they want. Especially if they don’t mind coming off as bitchy and a little childish.
Now, I’m off to have some pizza and a glass of milo. My biology is telling me that’s what I need for lunch, so it’s gotta be good for me, right?
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At some point, you don’t NEED apples for nutrition. You can get everything that is in apples you can get from other foods. Is that a reason for not eating apples?
Luey, check the ABA website. Sopme of the natural weaning age research has been done by an… gasp… anthropologist… Kathryn Dettwyler. Were you aware of the protective effect breastfeeding has on bone loss in the long term?
Zoe… you can get angry all you like, but, like it or not, you ARE a mammal and as such there is a natural biological age for weaning… just like there is for learning to walk, sit, talk… or do these not apply to you? And if we insist on stepping outside the biologically defined norms, we take upon ourselves the risks that come with it… a case in point being the delaying of parenthood and the associated rise in breast cancer, birth defects and the need for ART. Assisted reproduction technologies. You can’t escape your biology, you can’t.
I am equally tired of people using fallacious arguments. I am a scientist.
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Oh, and since I just can’t resist, saying something is “full of nutrition” doesn’t make sense. Every food is “full of nutrition”. The statements about breastmilk not being for nutrition is because at some point, it’s not neccessary for nutrition. It has other merits – bonding, contraception, etc. Nobody meant that the breastmilk suddenly stopped providing nutrition.
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Nikoleta, I’d love to see your sources for that info, as some of it contradicts research I’ve done on the same subject. I’m an anthropologist who specializes in bone loss, which can be caused by both pregnancy and childbirth, so I’m not just asking to be snippy – I’d really like to know!
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Yeah, I would like to be open minded and say, it’s like all things with parenting- we are all going to have our own ideas about what is right and wrong for our kids, and all aim to do what is in the best interests of the child. However, i honestly can’t get my head around how this is really in the best interest of these kids. I (like a couple of other people here) think this is more about mum’s needs than the kids and their will be negative repercussions for kids at this age from their peers if they continue to breast feed through primary school.
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I wouldn’t do it and it definitely raises my ick factor, but it’s also a personal parenting choice that isn’t abusive so I don’t really see how its any of my business.
The Little Britain skit is funny though.
Kelly
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I’m all for breastfeeding and all it’s nutritional powers and have breastfed all 4 children(including twins for 10mths) but this just doesn’t seem natural to me. It would certainly freak people out if you went somewhere in public and a 5-7yr old was breastfeeding. Especially if they were in a school uniform. Maybe the kids could share it for show and tell. As far as being comforting to the children, well my 4 are comforted with love and affection but would never consider putting them to the breast.
Jesuuus! They wouldnt even fit on my lap. Thats got to be a sure sign that they are getting a bit to big. Each to their own, but c’mon, it just doesn’t seem normal.But then again these days does normal even exist?
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Birdie, while I think I know what you’re getting at, some kids would be capable of asking for a feed at about 7 months, and they’re not too old for it then. However, I’d say that when your kids are old enough to be able to undo your bra clasp to have a feed, which most kids would be able to do at 5, when the older of these two was weaned, they’re definitely too old.
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Nikoleta, animals also rape and kill each other. Animals do it, so it must be natural, so we should do it too, right?
WRONG.
Unless, of course, you feel that you’re an animal, and deserve the same treatment…?
My point is, just because animals do something, doesn’t mean we should. So some animals breastfeed longer than humans. Wow, who cares. We’re not animals.
This post has probably come across as quite aggressive and rude, but I’m tired of people using ridiculously fallacious reasoning.
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Ooops…seems I spoke too soon!
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Mia…I’m surprised we haven’t had and Essential Baby nutters in here ranting and raving about breast feeding rights!
Imagine if you had posted this on EB!
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I will start by saying I didn’t see the videos so I don’t know how old the kids are.
But I am shocked at how many misconceptions people here have about breastmilk and breastfeeding.
It is a complete food AT ANY AGE. Quite simply, it is the most nutrient rich food for humans ever. “They don’t breastmlik for nutrition” is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. it’s like saying “they don’t need apples for nutrition”. Sure, it is only a *part* of their nutritional intake, but a very NUTRITIOUS part. Gram per gram, breastmilk contains more nutrition than ANY OTHER food.
Kids will wean themselves, some earlier, some later. My daughter weaned at 4 and a half, my son is still going at 2 and a half and god knows what #3 (on the way) will do. Actually, research comparing us to other mammals and indicators for when they naturally wean puts human weaning age between 2.5 and 7!!!
Breastfeeding is 98% effective as contraception IF ALL THREE are satisfied: 1. baby under 6 months, 2. period hasn’t returned yet 3. baby has not had ANY OTHER food and has on demand access to breast 24 hours. the reason the access is important is that after ~3 months prolactin starts tapering off between feeds (that’s what stops oestrogen rising and hence ovulation) and regular feeds (ie contact with boob) are needed to boost it back up.
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Simple, if the kid can ask for it then they are too old!!
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“As recently as 200 years ago in Scotland children were still b/f occasionally up until about age 10″
If (and that’s a very big “if”) that is true, what is the relevance? People were doing a lot of things 200 years ago which we wouldn’t dream of doing today, mainly because they were not a good idea.
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S, you’re right that it isn’t foolproof contraception (obviously, your experience demonstrates that!) But JanelleC, where did you hear about the “unlimited access to the breast” being the reason why breastfeeding is a contraceptive? That’s not correct. The reason that conception is prevented is because of the hormones in the mother’s body. It’s nowhere near as good of a method as a condom or the pill, no matter how often the baby feeds. Evolution gave us this natural method to safely space out birth, but it isn’t perfect.
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S, you’re right that breastfeeding isn’t a perfect method of contraception. It just reduces the likelihood you’ll get pregnant. So it’s not a myth, but it definately isn’t the same as a condom or the pill.
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I hate to be disagreeable JanelleC, but, the health facts are infants do need solids from about the age of 6-7 months as the iron stores they are born with start to dwindle, and solids provide that extra nutrition which is not only essential for growth, but chewing is also important for speech development. I am completely with you on weaning when the child is ready (which is what I have done with my 3 children).
The mother from Cumbria…mmh, well it appears that unlimited breast access for her children is not the only unconventional thing she has going…by the looks of it (and I’m only guessing) I bet she home schools those girls too, and most likely shuns any form of ‘commercialisation’ (note: the berry picking and the prayer to the earth and sun at the dinner table!)
Look, I am the kind of person who is happy for people to do what they think is best for their family, and if you want to breastfeed for such an extended time – well, more power to you. BUT, the whole touching, drawing, naming, etc of the breasts is just unacceptable in my books! Gosh, can you imagine if she had sons??? They would be damaged for life!
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Humans reach an age where they dont need breastmilk for the nutrients because they are eating food. I think it can reach the stage where women continue breastfeeding long past its ‘use by date’ because they need to feel needed, they like to pat themselves on the back that they have continued for xx amount of time or in some circumstances there is a creepy sexual pleasure / power gained from it.
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Having been either pregnant or breastfeeding, or both, for the past 4.5 years and counting, I thought I could add something to this…
Just to throw in a few b/f facts…..
It’s only good as contraception if the child has unrestricted access to the breasts, especially at night. And doesn’t use any other form of soothing like a dummy, and no comping with formula, etc. So it’s not really common for it to be as effective as the pill, etc, because most of us can’t manage all the things necessary for it to work.
As recently as 200 years ago in Scotland children were still b/f occasionally up until about age 10. I think the extra vitamins and antibodies would do any child a world of good at any age, as well as the chance for a cuddle with a usually busy child.
The World Health Organisation recommends exclusive b/f for at least the first 6 mths, and breastmilk as the significant food until 12 mths. And that breastmilk remains as part of a child’s diet into at least their second year. I wish this was achievable, for the health of all the children on our planet. Solid foods from the age of 6 to 12 mths are more for taste and texture than nourishment. Children who aren’t fussed about starting solids by one aren’t nutritionally compromised, as long as they’re still getting breastmilk.
Having said all that, I weaned my older daughter once she turned 4 because I’d had enough by then, and I still had a baby to deal with. She would be still feeding occasionally now if I let her. She still asks for it 6 mths down the track. I tell her that she’s too big now. But the 18 mth old is still going strong. I had a breast lump scare this week. Cross fingers it’ll all turn out fine, but I was dreading the thought of weaning my 18 mth old daughter because she’s so attached (pun intended) to feeding. Not encouraged by me, just letting her take it at her own pace.
I agree with Aimee, I’d love to see a follow-up in 20 yrs, and yes, that woman does need a hobby.
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Hahaha, yep the better than a million melons line resonated with me too Carm. I would love to see a follow up documentary at age 21. Wonder if their obsession grows with them and they become lactation consultants, or dairy farmers, or just really really scarred.
I’m hazarding a guess that that clip is not going to be instrumental in anyone deciding to breastfeed. Get that woman a hobby!
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Yes I agree w Temmy too. That is fricking wierd. SOooooooo wierd. Doesn’t matter if breast milk does wonders for kids development and IQ and tastes better then mangoes or a million melons.. haaaaa.. they shouldn’t be able to vocalise it and draw pictures and name them… WHAT THE??? I don’t have any affectionate feelings for my mother’s breasts. Thank God I would feel like a freak. Who wants to remember that. Think its a nice bonding experience for mother & child but to desire to explore it any further when child begins to talk is creepy. And those kids didn’t strike me as particularly brilliant. No offense. If they were child prodigys perhaps it would lay claim to the IQ part but they just came across as ordinary little girls with an abnormal obsession w mummys boobys… How can her husband be supportive? She is still lactating after 7 years since giving birth?? Gross. LOVED the little britain clip though *smirk*
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s – you are not alone, I have two friends that feel pregnant with thier second while breatfeeding and no period in sight!
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Does anyone else find it weird how much of herself the mother was willing to give away, too? Saying how her daughters have all these opinions on her breasts and how they like to come and say hello to them while mummy is getting dressed and how they are horrified when mummy tries to trap her breasts in a bra etc? I mean, speaking as a childless person who is all in favour of breastfeeding (but it’s all just theoretical for me at the moment anyway), isn’t it a bit odd to give your children this much “power” over what is normally a private part of your body? Whether mummy wears a bra each day and whether one of her boobs is bigger is really no business of her children.
I think it’s okay for the adults in the relationship to use their maturity and social awareness to tell the small children what the world is/should be like, and not wait and take their cues from the kids. Letting the kids make the decisions is … well, I think that mother might have a few emotional issues.
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i keep hearing this breastfeeding as natural birth control thing… and it scares me a little. I think we are propagating a myth. I mean, i know it can be true for some women… but it’s hardly fail proof. I was breastfeeding AND taking the pill. Never even got round to getting my period back after birth, when I got pregnant with no 2…
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She’s hanging onto her kids needing her more than the other way around. It’s actually quite creepy.
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I kept cringing the whole way through…I’m all for breastfeeding but that is just extreme!
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Hmmmmm… breastfeed the kids until they’re eleventeen? Or just have a snuggle with them occasionally… What to do…?
I’m a big fan of the boob, but really! It does seem like what the kids are really loving is the closeness to, and intimacy with Mum. I tend to agree that their opinion that breast milk is the most delish substance on this earth is something they’ve had pushed down their throats a little, (pun intended). Have they no chocolate, for god’s sake?
I guess it is a nice thing that you want to keep going forever, but the point of breastfeeding is to nourish, and to assist with bonding, (oh, and to give boobies to girls who have none – if only for a while!). As all the girls have mentioned, kids over a certain age do not need to rely on bm for nourishment, and there are many other (age appropriate) rituals that Mums and kids can engage in to bond. Hell, she could read to them! Wouldn’t that be pretty much the same, without having your boobs pawed? Quiet, quality time for parent and child together – yes. But this? This is a little weird. She definately needs to move them on to the next stage in their development – mashed banana – and she might want to try them on formula, just so Dad can feed them occasionally!
But seriously, I think Mum’s having a problem with ‘the letting go’ and ‘the moving on’ – its HER developmental stage that’s arrested.
Loving the ‘Little Britain’ clip, but the doco is nearly as funny!
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Maybe I’m naive because I’m not a parent, but do kids normally wean themselves off breast feeding and this woman’s kids just never have?
Surely its up to the parents when they wean their children and like melanie said…shouldn’t there be boundaries?
It seems to me that it is up to parents to teach their children these hard lessons – like giving up dummies, breast feeding and those billiant tubs of baby jelly from Heinz.
Otherwise the world would be a lot odder than it is now surely
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Wrong, wrong, wrongity, wrong, wrong… I’m with Temmy – makes me feel ill!
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Oook, that’s a bit excessive. Breast milk does have brilliant nutritional and immunological benefits… FOR INFANTS. They’re only getting a psychological benefit now, and whether it is actually a benefit is questionable. This seems more like the mother being selfish than it really being the choice of the kids. Creepy.
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I agree, Luey. I’m pretty open-minded and I do understand that each to their own, and that in some cultures (and in some families) breast-feeding until 2-4yrs is quite normal and healthy. Any longer though and I am sure there are deeper psychological issues involved, more the mother’s than the children’s.
That being said, I am sure that the children don’t focus on or draw pictures of breasts everyday. Obviously it is all edited together and may seem they are focused on it, but rather it may play a minor thought or part of their activities each day.
I don’t believe in the child suckling until it wants too, though. Like with everything else there should be boundaries. If the mother is sick of it after a couple of years than I think it is healthy for her to wean her baby off.
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I don’t know which was funnier…
The narration of the doco was priceless…so so serious..
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Lots of research has been done into the “right” time to stop breastfeeding, based on how long other primates breastfeed and how long women in non-western cultures do so. The consensus seems to be that we “should” breastfeed for 2-4 years, which is of course much longer than most women do in western culture.
Breast milk is so vital for the baby and it provides the best nutrition UP TO A CERTAIN POINT. Once the kid is on solids, it doesn’t really need breast milk any more from a nutritional standpoint. It’s already gotten all the immunity benefits and so on. One of the major reasons women used to do it for a longer time is because breastfeeding also lowers the chances of conception and is therefore a natural birth control.
And this woman is doing her kids no favors by doing this to them. Imagine seeing yourself in this documentary at age 16 or so…
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Eeeewwww!
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Somehow I knew that the “20 years later” would be a link to Little Britain.
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mmm…. trying to be open minded here, but actually just very weirded-out. and i thought i’d breastfed my kids for a long time (18mths…) geeeez…
the voice-over is hilarious, though. this would’ve definitely worked out better as a US documentary. That British accent trying to make it all sound so serious and significant… too funny.
and i’m with Temmy – should breasts really be such a central part of their lives?? i know we have spoken of the evils of barbies and bratz dolls before, but i think i’d prefer to see them playing and drawing those…
also, lastest thing… the whole “it’s better than anything in the world” – i’m pretty sure that’s a learned response…
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“Bitty”
Oh – just spotted the second video after I wrote that – glad we are on the same wavelength on this Mia.
Ok, I am going to take a deep breath and come right out and say what I really think.
This woman is a fckin freak and this bollox is going to leave her kids even more freakish than their mother. They clearly already are pretty odd, drawing pictures in ode to their mother’s breasts – seriously. When I was their age I was drawing flowers and fairies and I thought I was weird!!
Makes me want to vomit.
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