University degrees might be “grossly overrated.”
That’s the IQ2 national debate with National Centre for Vocational Education Research. Its Managing director, Dr Tom Karmel, says that while a university education is useful, there are other paths to consider as well.
His opinion comes on the back of a Federal Government proposal for 40 per cent of Australians aged between 25 and 34 to have a bachelor degree by 2020.
Editor of Lip Magazine Zoya Patel says:
Here’s something they rarely tell you when you’re leaving university – the real world may not give a shit about your degree.
Graduating from university no longer seems to hold the import it once did. I assume there was a time when tertiary education was like a job guarantee. It set you ahead of the pack, put you in a different class of worker. Surely that’s why my parents pushed me to go to uni pretty much from when I could grasp a pen, right?
Now, it seems that a degree is just another trait expected of applicants in the job market – not an extra, desired quality, but an assumed one.
I’m speaking from personal experience – I’m a recent graduate and I have to say, finding a job after leaving uni was no easy feat.
I graduated from the Australian National University with a Bachelor of Arts degree (known to be the least useful degree available to mankind). I started applying for jobs pretty much as soon as I was sure I would be graduating. For months, I applied for every admin or Communications role I could find.
Although I got called, and interviewed, and eventually found a great position as a Communications Officer for a small not-for-profit, it struck me that at no time did anyone ask to see my academic transcript. I could have been lying about my grade averages, and no one would have known or cared.
Really, what people were interested in were my extra curriculars, and the outside work I had done (such as editing a magazine, and writing for a range of online and print publications). Ironically, my week-long internship at a local newspaper was of more value than my four years of university.
Why is it that employers are no longer that interested in degrees? Is it because they’re so ubiquitous now that it would be strange for someone to be applying for such jobs without one? Is it just because my degree is so unimpressive (I didn’t even do Honours), and my extra curriculars so numerous that it made sense to sideline it?
I still value my degree, and I definitely see the merit to tertiary education. But it’s interesting that, given the emphasis placed on vocational experience, there was not much of a push towards providing any such experience while I was at university.
Maybe the nature of universities, and the purpose of tertiary education is changing – could it be that degree are less about preparing students for the workforce, and more about a level of intellectual discovery that helps with the development of a life-view, but not so much with a fiscal return?
Certainly there are many far more vocational degrees on offer than the Arts degree I completed, but with more universities considering changing the way that undergraduate studies are structured, this could also be changing soon. For example, the University of Melbourne changed the way that they structure their programs several years ago, so that all undergraduates have a more general education, before specialising through a postgrad course into a specific field.
There’s something to be said for a holistic approach to education, but I wonder if recent graduates will suffer from a lack of vocational experience when applying for work.
Zoya Patel is the editor of Lip Magazine, an independent magazine for young women. You can check out Lip here, and Zoya’s blog, The Coconut Chronicles here.
Do you have a degree? Did you need one to get into your line of work? What was the one thing that employers placed most importance on?






Comments
258 Comments so far
Interesting- I study nursing and public health and I can’t tell you how many lecturers have commented on the decreasing academic standards among students in the past 15 years. One of the lecturers attributed it to the increasing number of hours students work- it’s not hugely uncommon for someone to take on a full time course load and also work 25+ hours a week, apparently once unheard of. Is it any wonder we feel pressure to work that much if it’s what’s going to push us over the line to get a job at the end of the degree? I definitely feel that there’s a pendulum swing back towards ‘hands on experience’ at uni, with lots of prac hours and being heavily encouraged to join mentor programs etc.
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I’m a nurse educator and I’d love to see that pendulum swing. I’m disappointed at how ill prepared some new grads are for the clinical environment. What is nursing if it isn’t hands on? I wouldn’t go as far as suggesting a return to hospital training but something needs to change.
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Perhaps nursing needs to change to a 4 year degree with an internship as the 4th year that must be done to graduate? Nurses absolutely need the hands on experience and doing 8 or 12 weeks clinical placement isn’t going to cut the mustard.
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I’m not sure what the nurses do at my uni, but I wouldn’t imagine it’s too far removed from what we do in education – 1 day a week then a two week block for first semester, first year, longer block second year, longer block third year, 6 weeks with your own class internship fourth year. I have a friend just starting over in WA and she has prac uniforms at the start of first year, so I assume early prac and often there?
We’ve already had people go to schools and drop out because they couldn’t handle it, which is good. Better realise you’re not up for it now than wasting your time doing a degree you’re not going to use.
Re the 15 years difference – I went to uni straight out of school in 93, and the stuff we’re doing now feels a LOT easier than it did then. They’ve streamlined the referencing system with the whole uni (as far as I’m aware) using a Harvard version, rather than every faculty (or even every subject!) having different styles. Computers have obviously helped enormously, but then the sheer volume of info that you can find can be overwhelming!
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I think some of the problem with too much outside work is that any prac is unpaid. A lot of people just can’t afford to not work. I’m a preceptor at work and the vast majority of them say they have to work part time, juggling that with uni.
One thing about the old hospital system was that students got paid (these days the uni pay the hospitals for the privilege of taking their students in). My daughter got a year long placement at a tertiary hospital last year, work 2 days/week during semester. Unpaid of course, but what a difference if it was paid.
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Bang on the money Faybian. Every student I know wants more prac hours but it’s just not realistic when you still have other assignments AND a paid job to pay the rent. I think nursing students need a longer semester to include more hours (I think paramedic students do a prac over the summer break!), and as you said a minimal apprentice-level wage would make a WORLD of difference. I have NO DOUBT if that was the system I would graduate a better nurse.
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As a business owner that has employed many people over the years, I think being able to sell (yourself or a product), along with confidence and worldliness trump an undergraduate degree by a mile.
The number of degree qualified people I have employed that are useless in the business world is amazing. And the worst thing about these qualified people is they dont realise their shortcomings…thinking that their little rolled up piece of paper means they already know it all day 1. Pfft.
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My wife walked past and saw your name, Zoya.
She tells me that she really likes Zoya nail polish.
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There’s no way I’d get a job in my chosen field (psychology) without the relevant degrees. I’m part way through my honours now. I did a Master of Arts just for fun a little while ago and loved it. It was an expensive ‘just for fun’ but I met some great people and really improved my writing skills, so it was worth it.
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The comment was that degrees are ‘grossly overrated’, and I can sort of agree with that. My husband is an engineer who is in a hiring position, and he has a lot of graduates come through with no work ethic or ability to practically apply the theory they learn at university.
My husband has only ever once been asked to show his degree, and that was around eight years after graduating.
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I’ve been a practising Engineer for just on 20 years, and have not once been asked to show the piece of paper.
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Ha. Only a privileged middle class person would think like this, right?
Sure, not every job requires a degree, but I reckon it’s about the experience more than the piece of paper at the end. The skills you learn – both academic and social. Lifelong friends, extracurriculars and undestanding Foucault’s discourse power are just some of the things I got out of Uni.
Access to tertiary education should be a universal right, but being in there and doing it is a privilege, and students and grads would do well to remember that. I don’t see the point of poo pooing a degree just because you can’t see how you’re using it. The author is an editor, right? Clearly an Arts degree has provided her with at least SOME of the skills she uses in her job. And how does she know the story wouldn’t be different without a degree?
And for those declaring they earn more than non degree people – what? Do you earn more than a partner at a big 6 law firm? More than a bank CEO? They probably have degrees. It’s all relative, and good for you, but earning capacity is certainly not the only measure of a degree’s worth.
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Had you saved the class bashing until the end of your comment, I believe that I would have read it in it’s entirety.
You started with a negative and I found it hard to get past the negative. Sorry.
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I AM a privileged middle class person, acknowledging that only those who are privileged have the ability to lament getting a degree at all.
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I have an honours degree in education. I don’t think anyone I have worked for since I left teaching 20 years ago has even asked me if I went to uni….
It’s a pity because I can tell you where to find the best toasted almond croissant in the world (it’s at the University of Witwatersrand canteen on the main campus). One of the finest things I learned there
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“University of Witwatersrand canteen on the main campus”
In the SU building? I don’t remember the croissants, but I do know they had the best crepes in the world.
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I want to hear your accent now!!
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Pretty sure I wouldn’t be able to get a job without my Bachelor of Nursing…although, I hear the govt wants more PCA’s in hospitals. I thoroughly disagree with this. The level of care just simply wouldn’t be the same. There are great PCA’s out there, of course, but RN’s and EN’s have a different knowledge base from their training.
Afterall, that’s why people go to university. To broaden their knowledge in a particular field. So I don’t think degrees are a waste of time, they are still valuable.
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Degrees are just a middle class version of the apprenticeship. They are not completely useless for employers – if you can get a degree in something it proves you are not completely stupid as you got in and can do independent work to achieve a distant goal which are reasonable work skills.
But the vocational degree is a relatively recent phenomenon and one I’m not convinced is a change for the better. It used to be that for pretty well all professions the way you started was an apprenticeship type scheme where you do practical work and take exams to qualify, even for things like medicine and engineering. You can still do this in law and accounting I believe but most new entrants are graduates. I see this as a largely pointless move by the professions to raise status and barriers to entry. It’s also inequitable as university is still largely the preserve of the middle and upper classes so forcing people to go to uni in effect removes these careers as an option.
As someone who is often involved in recruiting (and to forestall sour grapes type objections, I have 3 degrees, in easy subjects such as arts and law and the more difficult MBA) I ignore degrees completely. I’m much more interested in background, experience and interview. Even where a degree is specified as a requirement, if I possibly can I substitute “relevant work experience”.
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It really depends on what career you want. Doctor, lawyer, dentist, scientist, engineer, physio…… try getting any of those jobs without a university degree.
I think the problem is with the youth of today. I think they think that a 3 year university degree leads to a guaranteed job at the end. Once you’ve got a degree, no one can take that away from you but you’ve got to do it for the right reasons.
Just to be a bit of a snob…… couldn’t get a job after a 3 year BA…. I’m so shocked!
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What I’ve learned? Nobody cares about a basic Bachelor’s any more now that they’re a dime a dozen. It’s that extra edge – a postgrad diploma, honors, MA, etc – that makes people stand out. It’s really interesting how the age of student loans has shifted the value of the humble BA/BSc/whatever.
Within academia, you need the credentials AND the extracurriculars now that the job market sucks so much. Someone once said “academia is a reputation economy,” truest words I’ve heard in a long time.
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If you need a degree in your chosen field, you can always buy one on the internet …… (just saying)
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I did a vocational degree and opted for vocational electives and I regret that now. My time would have been better spent building up my knowledge on history, politics, literature, law, religion, etc. I also wish I spent more time on campus-related groups and activities rather than getting work experience placements. To me that is what a university education should be about. When I look back the most important thing my degree taught me was critical thought, which is something I didn’t realise nor appreciate at the time.
And if anything, the fact that degrees have become the new baseline means having one is more important than ever. When you have a lot of applicants for a job their level of education is an easy method of culling. It will also determine your salary, equal pay for equal work is a myth, if your colleague has a higher level of education they will (and should) get paid more. They will also have a leg up on gaining promotions. If the end result is that we all get better educated then surely that is a good thing.
I expect my kids to go to uni regardless of what profession they want to enter, in my mind they would have to make a good case not to go. And I will be jealous! I wish I could do it all over again.
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I’m onto my third degree now. Everyone makes fun of me – “back at uni again?!” – and my brothers think it’s hysterical! But basically I love learning and if I could I’d never leave the place
Apart from learning, I’ve found uni is great for networking and meeting great people. Also, it provides so many opportunities that I, at least, wouldn’t have ever had otherwise. For example, my journalism grad dip is throwing up internships left, right and centre and I have met and learned from some really high profile journalists.
Having said all that – I’ve worked all the way through my degrees, done as much work experience and extra curricular stuff as possible, and I’m working full time and studying part time now.
To each his own, I say!
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I need a degree for my career as it’s quite specialised. I guess it depends on the work you want to do. But I think there’s more to university than the career you get out of it. Critical thinking and analytical skills are so valuable. University changed the way I saw the world and the people in it. It opened my mind. Even if I didn’t need a degree for my career (I’ve just started my third degree!), I’d still do it and recommend it.
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I think it depends entirely on the area you plan on working in. I am almost finished my BA(Psych) and there is no way I’d get a job in psychology without the degree. The moment you mention psychology to people they automatically go oh, you like counselling. There is so much more to it than counselling, that’s only a very small part. I know in past admin and IT jobs my qualifications were irrelevant yet, psychology is an area where a degree is a must. I personally don’t know why you’d bother with a straight BA as it doesn’t really qualify you in anything, hence the irrelevance with having one and jobs requiring you have one.
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I hate to break it to you- but getting a job within psychology with just a bachelor degree is incredibly unlikely. Even after an honours degree in psychology you will be lucky to get a job as a provisional psychologist- a paid one anyway. You can look forward to endless years of studying and unpaid internships for the most part. It will only be until you have finished a Masters degree that you will be able to find a position as a Psychologist (capital “P”) and unless you are interested in Clinical Psychology- good luck with that too…
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Hate to break it to you – but I’m pretty sure the majority of people who are studying their undergrad psych degree are aware of what their future profession’s qualifications involve. I don’t understand why you think we’re all going to have a hard time getting into Clinical Psychology, when there is a massive shortage in Australia right now?
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Thank you. Well said
. I totally agree
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I did an undergraduate psych degree – averaged 85% across all 3 years. Not high enough to get into Honours that particular year and other universities I applied to accepted their own graduates first (with lower averages) so I missed out. Post Grad Dip in Psych leads nowhere. Yes there is a shortage of Clinical Psychologists but it seems there is a shortage of university places. You’ll find that Psych Nurses, Occupational Therapists and Social Workers will pretty much do an identical job in the public health system as a clinical psych anyway (and much quicker to get a job that way)
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No, I don’t think you will have trouble getting into clinical psychology- hence why I said “unless” you are interested in clinical psychology. It’s finding jobs in other psychology specialities that can be tricky, that was my point. I know what the point of the article is and what I guess I was trying to say originally is- no, university degrees *aren’t* enough.
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IT seems that it is the career you enter that makes the lack of a degree to the need to have one essential.
I have two degrees, second one when I got bored when the children were starting to leave home. None of my children have gone to University. Only one did training at TAFE.
Oh they all qualified to do a degree and I was there eager to put them through, but they decided that they didn’t like “academic” life.
All of them have successful careers, only one has a career that I feel he would be paid a lot more if he had that bit of paper (at the moment he does the job and the supervisor arrives at the end of the day and signs a bit of paper), but he is having too much fun to bother to take the time to do the courses.
I loved my time at Uni but agree it isn’t that important these days. Am I being politically insensitive to suggest that it is easier to go to Uni and the courses seem to be a little easier as well.
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Uni is very much easier to access now, and it would seem to me, having completed two undergrad courses (career changed after I had children) that Uni now is a lot more like school that it used to be. There are many Uni courses require really low enter scores, staff are not keen to fail students so everyone gets a prize – sorry Degree! I think this explains the need for so much post-graduate education when the grads start work.
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When I was at uni I had some pretty horrible and unexpected things occur, so I failed two subjects one semester in my second year.
I remember FREAKING out about it, and then in my fourth year, was doing five units per semester instead of the usual four to make sure I would graduate at the same time I would have without the life mishaps.
I kept trying to get meetings with course experts and heads of programs and lecturers to discuss my progress and how I could make up for my failed subjects and not have to go work at McDonald’s when I finished uni.
At the time, I was so confused and frustrated at the lack of response I was getting from these people, and when I did get to speak to them, they would tell me flippantly that it would all be fine. BUT MY LIFE IS AT STAKE HERE, PEOPLE, DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT? WHAT ABOUT MY GPA? IT’S RUUUIIIINED!! I would say (in a more polite, dignified way).
Now I understand that they knew the deal. They knew I would graduate, and I would never, ever be asked for my transcript. Hell, they knew I would never be asked for proof of the degree listed on my resume.
As it turned out, I got a journalism job four days after finishing uni, not because I had a degree, not because I worked so hard to catch up, but because I had done buttloads of work experience. That’s all it’s about in the artsy kind of field.
Nowadays, the experience is what the degree once was. Getting the piece of paper and wearing the funny hat is expected, but ultimately, we don’t learn much at uni, really. We learn life skills, we make new friends, and we learn to live on our own (most of us), but mostly, we’re showing we can commit to something for three or four years. All uni does is mature us a bit, I believe, and that’s why employers want to hire people with degrees.
A uni degree of some kind is probably necessary, but not for the same reasons it once was.
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While I think university degrees are great for certain people, who want to work in certain fields, I do not believe they are the be all and end all that many make them out to be.
I was raised by parents who never cared whether I went straight into work, did a traineeship, or went to to tafe or uni. I seriously considered all of them.
I really don’t like that some parents expect their kids to go to uni, even if they don’t know what they want to do. Sure, if the kid is happy to go to uni to learn, explore and discover life then go for it.
But some of my friends went just because that’s the done thing. It turned out badly and only now, when I have finished a bachelor and honours, are they realising what they might actually like to do.
Many of my most happy and successful friends work in industries where a degree would be irrelevant. Sure, they need training, but they get that in other ways – tafe, vocational education, short courses.
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I didn’t finish my degree and my mum STILL goes on about how I could go back now and finish it, at age 41. This is despite having had a top notch career in finance, earning a healthy wage and successfully competing against degree-holders for different positions in my industry. She just doesn’t see a life worth living without a degree, only how I ‘wasted’ my working life without one.
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Does your mother have a degree? If she doesn’t I’d say she wants to see her child achieve something that she didn’t. It probably drives her crazy that you started it and didn’t finish.
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Oh, honey, you’re screwed!!!’
I’m sure she knows there’s a difference. I work in education and I’ve come across people with loads of letters after their names with less intelligence than a bag of potatoes.
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Worse, my mum’s an educator. Both parents have numerous post-grad certs. My brother has a PhD and is currently completing an MBA. I just wish my mum would see that intelligence does not necessarily equal suitability to academia.
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A degree that leaves you job ready would be the ideal thing. I have a
BA, double media major, but it was very accademically based and difficult to find work in a regional area once I graduated. Now 5 years after I gained my degree, I have never worked in an industry I love. Heartbreaking.
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My friends who employ accounting graduates often complain that the skills the graduates are bringing with them is a disgraceful reflection of what they’re not teaching Uni students today.
Personally, I think its sad that for people in urban areas universities are so suburbanised today. I have a few nieces and nephews who have graduated uni and basically never had to leave their local area becauase there was a Uni nearby. So they went to primary school, high school and university all in their little bubble of life and have never experienced anything outside that. And have only applied for jobs locally too. My first year of University took me 2 trains and a bus to get there, it really threw me out of my comfort zone and I met people from all over the place. And opened my eyes to all sorts of things I would never have seen in my little neighbourhood. I had a uni nearby and my parents wouldnt let me apply to go there because they said I needed to get out into the world. To me thats the most important part of university, experiencing life, new people and places. The academic stuff is just the icing on the cake.
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I’m starting to notice that down here, Lu. Straight from local school to local uni. Presumably back to a local school to teach.
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BA = Bugger All degree – unless it is something specific – too many people think that they need a degree and hence do one of these but was never convinced how it would get them a job if they didn’t know what they wanted to do in the first place. But do know that you almost need one to do almost any entry level position – would make me think at least had the tenacity to finish the degree but without a real major then its worth??
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That’s why it’s a personal enrichment degree.
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Well, I’m a year and a bit off graduation (5.5year dual) and it’s just hit me that I’m completely screwed on graduation anyway, as my GPA is shithouse. Well, my Arts GPA is tops (just under 7) but because I did an extended major in French, the constant assessment – weekly preparations that often took hours to prepare – and working the other 3-4 days of the week meant that my law grades suffered. I’ve never failed anything, but I’ve received mediocre results at best.
I decided to defer the final 2 French subjects until next year, so that I can spend this year studying my hardest for law so that I can hopefully show an improvement on my transcript.
With 10 law subjects left, I’m pretty sure even the biggest of miracles with my grades isn’t going to be enough to tempt an employer and because of my hours of work, I haven’t had the time for extra-curricular activities.
So, yup. FML.
On the plus side, I already work in admin for a small firm so if I’m lucky, I may get something through that and then rely on my good work ethic and success post-uni to secure employment in a different field.
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Don’t worry Shannon, the fact you are working in a firm is going to assist you tremedously!
In my experience, the only firms that actually make a very big deal out of grades is the top tier firms or the very very large mid-tier firms.
I had above average, but not stellar marks, as in I had the lowest GPA out of all my friends who all had very high marks and I got a job just fine. I went the same route as you – working as a paralegal which turned into a graduate job. I did NOT want to work in a top tier, which is where all my friends ended up!
One of my friends who had a reasonably good GPA but no work experience (other than working in a photocopying shop for income at uni) had more trouble finding a job than I did!
You will be FINE, even better than fine, you’ll be great!
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Thanks Whippersnapper
Your words of encouragement really do mean a lot!
Luckily for me, I have no interest whatsoever in top-tier firms, or even large mid-tier firms…I’ve heard they suck out your soul. Since I started work where I am, I’ve come to appreciate the small firms much more and even on a lower pay grade, I think I’d be happier in that environment
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So prospective employers can see your actual grades for uni subjects when they interview you??
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Yes, but you provide them. Usually they ask to see a Certified University transcript (I.e. Not a transcript you’ve printed off yourself) and then they might ask you about any subjects you failed or withdrew from. This is usually the case for top tier law and accounting firms.
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This is so misleading! In many areas including commerce, law, health-related work and even government they not only require you to have a degree, they will have a good look at your transcript and which particular subjects you did well in. Law firms definitely number crunch your grades to see whether your average is high enough to merit an interview. Even 10 years after finishing uni, I am still asked to produce my transcript when I apply for jobs. I recognize that you don’t need a degree in every sector, but in many areas, particularly as the number of uni students skyrockets with caps on uni places being removed for most courses except medicine, it will be very important to have good grades as well.
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I agree, in my field they’ll just throw your resume out if it doesn’t have a masters degree on it.
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Slightly OT:
A few years back a girlfriend and I found my husbands best mates internet dating profile. This actually stated that he would not date a woman who did not posses a degree. When I questioned him over this he told me: “I want to be able to have an intelligent conversation – I don’t want to date a hairdresser”. *
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it just feels a little harsh. Really, it’s the equivalent of him telling me he’s a better person than I am because he studied at Uni, and knowing this guy and his (sometimes questionable) morals, I’m not sure that that is necessarily the case.
* Just repeating what this guy said – I have had some highly intelligent conversations with hairdressers over the years!!!
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I have to have a PhD for my chosen career.
A Bachelors degree or Honours just won’t cut it.
By the time I’m done I’ll have 2 Bachelor degrees, 2 Honours and 1 PhD and I’ll still be underpaid.
A career in medical research is undertaken for the love of science not money.
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I know! For science students a PhD is basically mandatory for any job.
Just out of curiosity, why did you have to do 2 bachelors? (Sorry, I don’t mean to pry, it’s just I’m currently doing BSc and plan to go into medical/neuro research!)
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I have an often-made-fun-of degree too – Bachelor of Arts (Visual) with Honours. Clearly, it’s not going to get me a job working in the corporate world, but that is never what I wanted. What I learnt was how to think, how to be critical, how to paint, how to talk about art, how to explain myself. To me these are hugely important to who I am.
Hard to say whether or not this degree has helped me get my current job (graphic designer), certainly I am using skills that I learnt while at uni (aswell as through a TAFE course), but I suppose I could have the same job had I picked up those skills by teaching myself at home, or learning them on the job, for example. I also still use those skills in my work as an artist, though this is hardly a money-making enterprise (quite the opposite).
I would say though, that I really like the idea of the American style of uni, where 2(?) years of more general education are completed before students choose a speciality. Age 17 or 18 is very young to decide which path to take.
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A piece of paper with B.A. on it might not be worth much, but the history, politics and english or whatever you studied is worth a lot. The difference between someone who can structure an argument and put something into context and someone who can’t is the difference between keeping and losing a job. Some degrees give you an education some just give you a meal ticket.
I always ask what someone studied when I’m working with them and if it’s a narrow vocational degree I speak to them differently. I slow down and make the links and put things into context. It’s a bore but expecting everyone to be educated is rude.
I agree with the people panning communications degrees. Not just worthless, they take bright interested kids and turn them into wankers. If you want to be a journalist, do politics or science or law.
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“I always ask what someone studied when I’m working with them and if it’s a narrow vocational degree I speak to them differently. I slow down and make the links and put things into context. It’s a bore but expecting everyone to be educated is rude.”
That’s so generous of you Alex, I’m sure they must really appreciate it.
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Yes, it’s delightful, isn’t it? I’m sure those vocational degreed knuckle-draggers must be touched by the thoughtfulness.
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We would be, but we’re too daft to notice…
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Yes, I cannot believe someone actually wrote that. Surely it’s a joke??
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It might depend on the context. Alex said “when I’m working with them” but didn’t specify how. If you’re a tax accountant doing someone’s taxes, you might have a conversation differently depending on whether your client has a finance background themselves or knows nothing about finance.
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So true Alex. I work at a law firm (as a lawyer) and we have a very senior legal assistant who’s been at the firm for 20 years. She knows the law back to front, knows how to handle clients, knows fee estimates – everything experience could possibly teach a person. Sadly though, she can’t structure a sentence, let alone an argument, and her grammar drives me up the wall.
The information she has may be correct, but if she can’t communicate it to a client or a lawyer then she’s useless! The degree makes all the difference.
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The fact that the legal assistant has poor literacy/grammar is not necessarily a reflection on her lack of degree. Sentence structure, grammar and putting forth an argument is something my daughter did in Year 5 NAPLAN last year. My husband is a medical professional and there are plenty in his line of work with appalling sentence structure and grammar. And, yes, illegible writing.
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i would also suggest raising your voice slightly too, i think it would really add to the effect.
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yes, well I could scarcely have put that worse, could I? Blame it on Friday.
The point I was trying to make is that a degree that won’t get you into the workforce is an advantage when you do get in. The author will have reasoning and analytical skills that more vocational degrees don’t provide. I’ve got both types of degrees myself so I’m not slagging either off. But someone with a Hotel Management degree has a different intellectual toolbox than someone who did say, Art History. They don’t just know different things, they assemble and process information differently. It doesn’t help either graduate to be using the same words for their university qualifications.
I agree with Guest above who points out that vocational courses even broad ones like law and medicine used to be served as apprenticeships and there’s much to be said for that method. There are things better learnt on the job than in a university and vice versa.
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lol Alex do you talk to someone like an equal initially, then explain things if they don’t understand? Or do you just assume they’re stupid based on their degree?
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Gee, if that’s what you think of people who did vocational degrees, I’d hate to hear what you think of people who haven’t done any degree at all.
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As someone else pointed out – the uni degree is assumed. Just because they aren’t looking at your transcripts doesn’t mean your time has been wasted – it’s put you above all of those people without a degree.
I have had the experience of being overlooked from the onset for the next step in my career as there was a prerequisite of having a degree… in ANYTHING! Apparently 9 and 1/2 years commitment and experience within the company was still less favourable than someone with no experience who had studied a completely irrelevant field.
Because there are still companies out there who value a degree more than experience, I am now returning to study to enhance my career prospects. I don’t regret my decision to defer uni (and forgetting to go back), nor any other decision I have made in life – everything I have done has shaped me into the person I am – but at >30 I can still see the added value of achieving a degree. Just think – all of my experience, PLUS a degree – I’ll be unstoppable!
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Good for you! It’s very easy not to take that extra step, so well done. I hope your company supports your study, they would be crazy not to.
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It definitely depends on what degree you do! I have just started a bachelor or midwifery, the essential requirement if you want to be a midwife (similarly to a nursing degree). This article seems to be making some big generalisations about university.
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A uni degree is necessary for a nurse. You have to satisfy a minimum number of clinical hours and be exposed to a certain number of clinical procedures etc to be able to register with the national body. University organizes all these placements and delivers the theory etc. I imagine it would be similar in courses like teaching, medicine etc. some uni’s run clinics for the public to access the services of their students at a discounted rate, like allied health, dentistry etc.
Fields such as this are less flexible about the need for a degree, but I imagine not all careers are.
I
When I go for a job, the big thing I need to worry about getting right, is the key selection criteria. I have appropriate qualifications and good experience, but I could volunteer until the cows came home and it wouldn’t matter if I couldn’t address the selection criteria.
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Same for Social Work. We have to under take two work place placements as part of our degree. No degree no advancement in this sector.
I have family members in sales who can’t progress to management positions because they don’t have a degree. I think if you get the opportunity it is well worth the investment.
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Ditto to dentistry. No degree, no drilling and filling
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I beg to differ with Social Work. I have the degree yet learned more in two weeks in the job than I learned in four years at uni. I have seen others advance with TAFE qualifications (or gain them after working their way up in organisations) and I think they are just as equipped to do the job with some experience under their belt as a new grad, if not more so as they’ve lived and worked in the real world.
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Same for teaching. No degree, no job.
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I’m a psychologist. I have two undergrad degrees, an honours degree and a masters degree. This article makes a number of generalisations that don’t apply to professional industries such as mine, nurses, teachers etc
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My advice to any aspiring ambitious female is get a broad based degree because you can never be over educated and if you want that promotion in 20-30 years time it will be there to support your application.
Dont get me wrong you can be as successful without a degree but if you wants to compete in the Boardroom formal education a key.
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So true, I use my first degree as a backup or padding on my cv. I have post grad masters that has more weight. The only problem is I finished my first degree in 1991, so it shows my age if I out it in my cv. In my industry being over 40 is death I think.
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And a degree IS also needed to get a decent job in comms. Writing for an online blig or sweeping floors at a newspaper is not enough to get a good job in the comms profession. The author if this article should be very aware of this. I strongly disagree with this article.
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Not always – I have a pretty great job with no relevant degree…..
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This does not reflect my experience at all.
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Definitely depends on the industry…
My uncle was an excellent banker but was passed up for promotion after promotion for younger, far less experienced candidates who had degrees, which he didn’t have. He said his biggest regret was not going to university. In the end it was so demoralising that he left and started his own company.
He is happy now but with his brains and potential he could have been a CEO, if only he had a degree.
(PS I know that you can get a degree when you are older but it’s really hard when you have a family and young children to provide for.)
That’s just one example, of course.
I am studying law and arts and I never want to leave university – it’s too much fun! Sometimes I wish I had chosen a shorter degree or a faster career trajectory – it’s frustrating to be stuck at uni while all of your friends are graduating and getting married and buying houses – but I know I will have time for all that soon. There is no rush!
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I have the undergraduate degree that everyone gets to take the piss out of, a Bachelor of Arts. I also have two post graduate qualifications and am considering going again.
I have worked in areas in the past where a degree was ‘desirable’ but not essential, and I think the fact that I had the degree helped me progress once I was there. I currently work in a University so obviously my qualifications are important here.
I have not always known what doors would open for me because of my qualifications, and my most recent door opening happened on the basis of study I did in my late teens/early twenties. I had NO CLUE at that time where life would take me, but I took a learning for learnings sake approach. What that means is that I have been able to carve out exceptionaly flexible and interesting work arrangements over the years.
I am a big fan of thinking, and of seeing the big picture and of creativity and being able to analyse information. You don’t need a degree to develop these skills, but for me it helped. I really think the idea of people with qualifications not having any common sense is ludicrous. I once had a vocational trainer tell me that my Masters was ‘a waste of time’ (eye rolling included) which was kind of along the same lines. She was a hairdresser so I’m sure that for her it might have been a waste of time, but for me as (at that time) a teacher of adult literacy, it was not. No need for her to feel threatened enough to say that. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else because of my qualifications but I also won’t allow myself to be treated like I’m some sort of ivory tower inhabiting dysfunctional because of them.
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It depends entirely on what you do at uni. My husband has just had the unhappy task of telling one of his staff that he has reached the pinnacle of his career – unless he gets a university degree. It is unfortunate, but the staff member wanted a particular job as his next step and it is an industry requirement to have an engineering degree for that job. It’s a tough thing to hear at 40. Now this staff member gets to watch younger, more educated people go past him, unless he does some additional study…
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There are some professions where you must have a degree…no doubt about it…
But I am the living example of a Uni drop-out who has managed to build a career based simply on talent and hard-work across a range of vocations, including managing the computer systems for Olympic Security at the Sydney 2000 Games…and I’m currently employed by one of the biggest IT companies in the world with a 6 figure income…I still don’t have a degree…
One thing I would say is that my career path has been largely serendipitous and unplanned…if you can’t cope with not having a clear idea of where you’ll be in 5-10 years, then I wouldn’t suggest you try and replicate my career path…on the other hand, don’t give up on yourself if you don’t have a degree either…if you have the talent and the drive, you can go places…
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You do? And you owe me lunch!
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McDonalds, here we come!
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I don’t really like to be the grammar police but whoever wrote the italicised intro might benefit from a bit more education.
Lines like “That’s the opinion of that National Centre for Vocational Education Research” and “His opinion comes on the back of a Federal Government for 40 per cent of Australians…” don’t exactly speak of higher education.
Then again, maybe it’s what the individual gets out of the experience.
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Thanks Amy – all fixed!
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Thank you!
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Degrees are social shorthand for: ‘I’m educated’.
It puts employers at ease that you went to uni and completed a degree. Having said that, I don’t think degrees are the be all and end all.
If a young person wasn’t particularly interested in going to uni, or wasn’t in a financial position to do so, I’d say don’t go. Do something else. There are plenty of great courses and programs out there. But if they WERE interested in going and were in a financial position to do so, I’d say go. Go and have fun, learn as much as you can and get your degree. It might not prepare you for work, but you won’t regret it.
Oh, and do an overseas exchange, if you can. I did – and it was awesome!
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I’d make a distinction between “educated” and “qualified”. Some of the least educated people I’ve met have had degrees.
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Couldn’t agree more.
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I have a degree in nursing. 6 months after graduating, I knew I was not cut out to be a nurse. A year later, after doing a Tafe course, I had plan B in place and I’ve worked in my new field ever since. My degree is not relevant to my new field at all but because I had a degree, I was able to do a post grad qualification (paid for by my employer). My colleagues without degrees weren’t able to do the same course, so my career has progressed (and salary has increased) much faster and further than theirs. At times, I felt like my degree was an expensive mistake but really it’s given me opportunities that I wouldn’t have had without it. So even though I only worked in my field of study for 18 months and it took 10 years to pay off the damn thing, I’m glad I did it.
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I am a nurse and to be rn you must have a degree. To pay my way through Uni, I worked as an AIN in nursing homes and hospitals and surprisingly my practical work experienced gave me the edge over other applicants. I was told that although the degree is necessary my experience in the practical side of nursing made me a more desirable applicant.
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Agreed. My oldest girl is in 3rd year at uni. The nursing degree will make further education and promotion easier, but she has just started casual work as an AIN too. I think this will give her an edge when she goes for a job as an rn next year. I think the degree is career specific and necessary, but given the lack of prac during the course the AIN experience is great.
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Its all so individual.
I completed my nursing degree after having managed a cinema for years. No nursing experience whatsoever. I got hired for a job with loads of candidates. My employee said he liked that I’d had other “non nursing” experience because it’s easy to teach people the clinical skills of nursing on the job and much harder to teach people skills related to working in a professional environment. Skills such as team leading, rostering etc were really useful for me to have under my belt.
Funny how different paths all lead people happily to the same place.
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I’d say a management role would help too. My daughter has been a cafe manager for years. I think that would help, but she wanted AIN experience before she graduated.
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Same here. I’m second year nursing and working as a PCA in a nursing home. I find I’m picking up on new skills much quicker than I did previously and am feeling much more prepared for placement because of my job.
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Studying a Bachelor of arts in Communications is a waste of time, completely unnecessary for anyone who has a half a brain and can get some work experience at a community paper/writing newsletters for a NFP and can get a decent grasp of the way the media works.
Perhaps a science degree, engineering etc though is a lot more necessary for the chosen field.
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I disagree with this. I’m PR/Comms manager and I’d think twice about hiring anyone without a degree. it doesn’t necessarily need to be a comms degree, but writing is such a key part of PR and anyone who applies for a job in my team and doesn’t have a degree would have to do so much more to show me that they had the right skills.
I acknowledge this isn’t the case in all industries, but in communications I think it’s crucial.
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Completely agree. If you want to be a journalist do one if those ‘useless’ BAs in whatever subjects you really love and write: for local paper, university paper, volunteer to work in advertising or PR, whatever. Your experience might mean you end up doing something different, but a B of Comm is too narrow.
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I left school 17 years ago and went straight into the workforce via a traineeship. Have hit several ‘glass celings’ in the workforce since then and am now back at university at the ripe old age of 36 to complete a degree in my chosen field.
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This is similar to the stay-at-home v. working-mothers debate. Different strokes.
Like I said on that forum: do what makes you happy. I love, love, loved uni, and I know I learnt so much. For other people, it doesn’t work. Does it matter? I couldn’t have done any of this without uni, but I’m not the type that could make it from scratch.
Must we always generalise? Ah. The world is a rich tapestry of uni-goers and non-uni-goers, and how boring would it be if we all went together?
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Oh don’t say that! I have just bitten the bullet and gone back to Uni as a “mature student” this year… sure as heck hoping that it will improve my job prospects
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The title makes out like you shouldn’t bother with uni…when really you’re saying you need to to a crapload more to make your uni experience actually useful.
All the people I’ve spoken to – companies, graduate program runners, teachers who can give me internships – say the same thing: your grades are relatively important, but if during your degree, if you never did part time work, volunteer, get work experience, go to information sessions, be a member of your industry organisation, do any extra-curricular activities, no one will be interested in you.
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In high school, I didn’t do TEE, I did vocational.
It let do one days work experience a week in our chosen field. I was teaching. I then went onto TAFE and did cert III in Teachers Assistant.
Again HEAPS of time in the classroom, though I know uni teaching degrees do the same.
I am now in Logistics in the Oil & Gas industry and to be honest to get where I was, was working hard and it was more WHO I knew than WHAT I knew.
Though I have learnt what I need to know through years of slowly working up, I happened to know the right people to get my foot in the door in the first place.
We have a few uni graduates working with the company, and they have NO clue about what it is like in the field, in the position they have taken.
Not their fault, but uni degrees don’t seem to hold the esteem that they used to all round.
Certain fields, yes you need it. Most of the time you don’t.
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I didn’t finish my degree and actually got an amazing job from my internship instead! Six years down the track and I’m earning more (have more earning potential as well) than most of my friends who spent three or four years at uni. I’m not knocking degrees in any way but they’re not the only way to get the job of your dreams anymore. The reason i got my job was more about my personality rather than qualifications (and I do work in an industry that MOST staff have some sort of degree). In saying that though, I always think about going back to uni to do something I’m truly interested in, rather than what I wanted to do as a career (which I’m also interested in, don’t get me wrong). My Dad has a degree which he has never used, except on trivia nights, whereas my mum could never do what she does without the proper qualifications. It’s more about your personal choice of career rather than a ‘must-have’
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I am a law student, would you really want someone defending you in court who didn’t know the rules of evidence and procedure? Or what constitutes a contract? Or any other of the thousands of things I am learning/will learn. Granted this is a very skills based degree. but I resent the idea that university degrees are overrated. Guys, lets also remember this study was done by the National Centre of Vocational Research who probably advocate for learning outside the traditional university model.
Having said this, I got into one of the top 20 law schools in the world (they like to tell us that!) with average marks in Arts and had a enter that wasn’t anywhere near the requirement for school leavers. So I guess I’m proof that grades aren’t everything. And yes my Uni does say that we have to get experience whilst we are studying.
Mum said to me when I finished Arts: I’m so glad at least you have a degree. It shows you can complete something.
As a side note MM, I’m kinda over the misleading headlines, “The real world doesn’t care about your university degree” isn’t at all true.
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To be fair, I’m a law student as well, and by the time we graduate and specialise in a specific area of law, we will need to learn it all again. We learn only the smallest part of each area of law, the law changes very quickly, and given the length of the degree there is little chance we will remember all the details required.
Also, you would be amazed what we are NOT learning. Sure, you might get to see what the laws are, but the rules / regulations of the different courts, the necessary format and purpose of different legal documents etc. – that is all learnt on the job.
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Agreed! I’m scared that I won’t remember it, all at the same time, I am excited for when we do actually get out there and work. Just wanted to highlight I guess the importance of having the degree, as the headline “degrees are overrated” really irritated me.
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1 of top 20 law schools in Oz? Wow! There are only 30 you know…
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I think Sophie said it was one of the top 20 law schools in the world not Oz. But good for you for being so smart.
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I meant in the world
http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2011/subject-rankings/social-sciences/law
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Hope you are enjoying Monash!
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