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Boat 380x237 Breaking: boat carrying 150 capsizes, women and children on board

 

By JAMILA RIZVI

UPDATE

Only a few days after 90 asylum seekers died on their way to Australia, there are reports that another boat has capsized near Christmas Island. The vessel is said to have been carrying 150 passengers, many of whom were women and children.

The House of Representatives is currently debating a Bill from Independent Robert Oakshott to restore offshore processing. You can follow the debate on ABC24.

News.com reports:

Rescue authorities said the boat is 172 km north of Christmas Island. It is understood two merchant vessels are on the scene, and aircraft and HMAS Maitland had been dispatched to the site.

The AMSA spokesman told the ABC the first Navy patrol boat was due arrive at the site about 2pm (AEST), with the other to arrive a few hours later.

The nationality of the passengers is not yet known.Customs and Border Protection said they were aware of the reports but could not provide details.

On Monday we saw an ever-so-slight-but-still-significant step from the Government, towards ending the political impasse over asylum seekers.

The Prime Minister has said she is ‘open to further discussions’ around offshore processing of asylum seekers and has even flagged a review of temporary protection visas, in return for the Opposition supporting her ‘Malaysia Solution’.

I’d like to think that is wouldn’t take the tragic death of  90 asylum seekers during perilous boat journey to Australia to prompt the giving of a little bit of ground on both sides. But even that, it seems, is not enough for the Coalition. Tony Abbott has staunchly refused to negotiate, telling Sunrise on Channel 7, “What is there to negotiate? The Prime Minister just wants us to accept a dud deal.”

This issue has been a political winner for Abbott. He doesn’t want to lose the advantage he’s got. And as a former political adviser – I get that. But people are dying. And it’s because the make up of our current Parliament is leaving the Government impotent, quite simply, unable to implement the solution they think is best.

There has got to be a point when politics stops. When politics is set aside because the gains aren’t worth the losses.

This is one of them.

A tiny flicker of light is still burning at the end of the tunnel of bipartisanship.

Independent Tony Windsor is working across party lines and calling for a back-to-the-drawing-board approach, in an effort to stop more people losing their lives while attempting to make it to our country. Windsor is working with people like Coalition members Mal Washer and Judi Moylan, Labor MP Steve Georganas and fellow independent Rob Oakshott to try to find a solution to the bizarre set of circumstances Australia currently finds itself in.Windsor Breaking: boat carrying 150 capsizes, women and children on board

As one of the men who was at the centre of the so-called new paradigm Windsor does have influence. Let’s hope that the new paradigm finally brings us something positive.

But how did we end up here in the first place?

Where do each of the parties currently stand?

The Labor Government announced last year that they had struck a deal with Malaysia, where Australia would send 800 asylum seekers who arrive on unauthorised boats to be processed in Malaysia and that in return Australia would accept 4000 people who had already assessed as legitimate refugees, from Malaysia.

Tony Abbott’s Opposition claims that the Malaysia idea will not be a sufficient deterrent to people risking their lives on boats. They want to re-open the detention centre on Nauru that operated under the Howard Government, process asylum seekers there and also reinstate temporary protection visas.

The Greens are deadest against offshore processing, no matter where it takes place. They want all asylum seekers who come to Australia to be processed and assessed on our own territory.

But the Government is the Government, why can’t they implement their own policy?

A High Court decision last year invalidated existing legislation that permitted offshore processing. For the Government to fully implement their Malaysia plan, they need to legislate around that High Court decision – so that offshore processing is an option again.

The problem is, the Coalition (while supporting the principle of offshore processing), do not support the Malaysia solution and refuse to support the Government’s efforts to legislate in the Parliament. The Government can’t look elsewhere for support because ultimately the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate and oppose offshore processing full stop.

How is offshore procesAbbott and Gillard 380x251 Breaking: boat carrying 150 capsizes, women and children on boardsing going to stop people risking their lives on boats anyway?

This is where we leave the comfortable realm of fact and re-enter the murky world of discussion and debate. There are a range of views that exist about offshore processing and its merits. At the very least, we can say that proponents of offshore processing (both the Government and the Opposition) claim it deters people from traveling to Australia without authorisation, in order to seek asylum.

To borrow the words of the Prime Minister, it is about ‘breaking the business model’ of people smugglers. If the product being ‘sold’ is “seeking asylum when physically in Australia gives your a better chance of being granted that asylum” – that is undermined if Australia won’t consider your application onshore.

What’s the broader context here?

The one thing that overwhelmingly gets lost in the political debate on this issue – is the facts. Tampa, the 2001 and 2010 elections and the overthrow of Kevin Rudd, showed us the political power that this issue wields over public opinion. And as a result, we rarely see the wood for the trees.

The reality is that there are millions of refugees worldwide and even more stateless and displaced people. There are less than 100,000 places for them that are being offered by developed nations (including Australia). None of these people are waiting in a so-called ‘queue’ – because with millions of people and 100,000 places – that queue is endless.All of these people are desperate.

Is Australia at risk of being swamped by ‘boat people’?

No. No. No. The natural border created by our mere physical landscape and the fact we are surrounded by a perilous sea – makes that close to impossible. The reality our television screens seem to miss is that most asylum seekers do not travel to Australia by boat – they come by plane on legitimate short term visas and then claim asylum once they arrive.

When it comes to accepting refugees and resettling them into our community – Australia does do its bit, there is no doubt about that. We are a generous country compared to much of the world. But could we and should we be doing more? You bet.

So what happens next?

It’s hard to tell. There is no doubt that last week’s tragedy has refocused both media and community attention on the issue and there is mounting pressure on our parliamentarians to do something. For me, Professor Clive Kessler said it best in today’s Sydney Morning Herald:

“After the latest boat disaster, the coalition and the Greens must rethink their position… [There have been] another hundred souls lost. Another hundred souls on all our consciences.

Responsibility is widely shared: by refugees themselves who risked this recourse, and the people smugglers; by the Indonesian government, which prefers to see overloaded, unseaworthy boats head south and reach, as soon as possible, some place on the open seas where they will effectively become Australia’s responsibility, not their own…

A set of arrangements has been negotiated by Australia with the Malaysian government. These arrangements are not perfect, neither is Malaysia. But they are workable. So why resist implementing them?”

 

Jamila Rizvi is Mamamia’s Managing Editor. She has formerly worked as an adviser for both the Rudd and Gillard Governments. All opinions expressed here are her own.

Are you frustrated by the political impasee that exists around the asylum seeker issue? Whose policy solution do you think is best? Do you think that bipartisan agreement on this issue will ever be possible?


Comments

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232 Comments so far

  1. D

    Mr Abbott and the Greens, in the words of Derryn Hinch Shame, Shame, Shame. Whilst I accept we should take more refugees, no one would want to be 1 of the next 800 and so people may stop getting on the proverbial leaky boat.

    Abbott wants to be able to say that he is dictating policy and the greens have got no idea.

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  2. Trog

    Offshore processing. Thanks for this enduring legacy, Mr Howard.

    Expensive and miserable piece of sophistry designed to wriggle out from our obligations to refugees under international law. If the refugees don’t reach our territory, then our obligations don’t kick in. So, we find a solution vastly more expensive than just letting them in.

    On the one hand, we’ve got people dying on boats because they’re desperate to find a place where they can work and make a life.

    On the other hand, we’ve got Gina Rinehart successfully petitioning the Gillard government to bring in overseas workers to work her mines due to an insufficient domestic labour force.

    This makes no sense whatsoever. It’s irrational economically and disgraceful on a humanitarian level. Shame, Australia, shame.

    My other concern with processing in Malaysia is the potential for corruption of the approval process; it has a good chance to become ‘cash for visa’. I don’t know about the level of institutional corruption of Malaysia, but if it’s similar to the other south-east Asian countries that I’ve visited then corruption will be a given.

    Genuine refugees seem unlikely to have a great deal of money, if they were genuinely persecuted in their home country.

    How’s that going to work?

    My pipe dream immigration solution:

    Instead of just being detained, asylum seekers go into a kibbutz like facility in Australia while their status is reviewed. They get paid for their work during this time. The kibbutz’s output gets sold.

    This concept may look a little ugly/rednecked, or like a labour camp on first inspection but I believe it would generate better outcomes.

    1. The refugees earn money and gain skills which will be very useful to them whether their claim for asylum is accepted or denied.

    2. Paid work gives people a sense of purpose and the sense of some control over their destiny. Much better than festering in confinement.

    3. It’s an easier sell to the Australian public that the refugees are productive and have good potential to be productive members of society. Further, the refugee facilities would be lower cost because their output generates revenue.

    Jamila, I know that you’ve got Julia and Tony’s ears, if you could cut and paste this into an email and ping it over, I’d be most appreciative.

    I won’t hold my breath on the implementation.

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    • Anon

      Perfect! My sentiments exactly!

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  3. Anon

    Thanks. Too late now plus only on phone so I’ll check it out tomorrow.

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  4. TwoDogs

    Jamila,

    If Gillard really wants to put politics aside, and I mean really deep down, way down somewhere in the recesses of her heart, somewhere where there apparently exists some semblance of dignity that is still remains, somewhere where she puts people drowning before her pride……………..

    ………..then just step aside and give the other mob a go.

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    • Lulu

      “then just step aside and give the other mob a go.”

      And that goes double for Dr No.

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    • Eddie

      And can we also remember that this is one piece of legislation.

      There are also another 600 pieces of legislation that have been passed with this current Government. Perhaps this is not news because it is not “bad” news. No one is interested in the good stuff.

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  5. TwoDogs

    Bring back Howard’s Nauru solution. It worked. Problem solved.

    As soon as Rudd abolished Naura and TPV’s (out of idealogical spite), the boats started comming in droves.

    As Tony Abbott just said on SKY news, the current situation is not a failure of parliament but a failure of the current government.

    Gillard tried the PNG solution – they told her to get lost.
    She tried the East Timor solution – they told her to get lost.
    She tried the Malaysian solution – the High Cout told her to get lost.

    Yet the prime Minister of Nauru awaits just one thing – her phone call.

    As Tony Abbott just stated – she has lost all sense of magnanimity. I would have just said she is acting like a complete a!!!hole.

    The people traffickers have no fear of this soft-touch government. A change of government would see the dangerous boat trips stop within about 24 hours on an election – without a policy change. There is no way this government can do anything about it. They are abjectly impotent.

    Nuff said.

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    • Anon

      Wrong. Howard did not stop the boats. The figures under his leadership fluctuated depending on external factors such as wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, not because of his policies. Check out the UNHCR figures if you’re unclear on this.

      The temporary protection visas were an abomination which were criticised by the UN and various human rights organisations and only served to make the enlightened world see Australians as an arrogant, xenophobic country too selfish to share its good fortune with some of the most disadvantaged people on earth. Yeah, bring back Howard’s policies, they were fantastic.

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      • TwoDogs

        Check the graph attached for the number of people arrived by ‘irregular boat movements’. The 2012 figures would now be off the top of the page. See the spike at 2008, that’s the ALP being returned to government .

        The six years before that – almost zero boats – that’s the Nauru solution. Well done to Howard here. It is noble to give credit where credit is due.

        You can talk about ‘Push Factors’ and ‘Pull Factors’ as much as you want. Howard stopped the boats. You can’t re-write history.

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        • Anon

          And what is the source for this graph?

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          • TwoDogs

            Department of Parliamentary Services – Fed Gov 2011

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            • Jackie

              Pretty good answer for source, cant really dispute that. Although the push/pull question cannot be answered so easily. As much as I admired Howard I always thought the TPV system was flawed. This is an evolving issue & legislation needs to be more fluid than laws allow.

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            • Anon

              Thanks for the source. I’ve checked it out and it makes interesting reading, especially since the data does not include those boats that we turned around.

              It is important to note, at the bottom on the page, an explanation of the data: Data from 2001–02 onwards includes arrivals at both excised and non-excised places, but excludes boats returned from whence they came (boat turnarounds)

              That means it doesn’t record the number of boats, or the number of asylum seekers on them, that were intercepted, towed back, turned around or foundered. Basically, those who still attempted to come, who got on dodgy boats and set sail. Operation Relex, a naval interdiction program to intercept and/or turn asylum boats around, began on September 3, 2001. There are various estimates for the number of asylum seekers diverted to Nauru or Manus Island during the years of the Pacific Solution, 2001 to 2007. The UNHCR estimates that 1600 ended up there – 1,600 people who still made the perilous journey.

              There may have been even more—DIMIA fact sheet No 76 (removed from its web site in 2005, but recorded in the book Future Seekers II: refugees and irregular migration in Australia) showed that 12 boats (including the Tampa), with 1820 people in total were stopped from getting to the mainland within less than a year between August 2001 and May 2002. In addition there were other boats that tried to get to Australia but were turned around or sank. In 2001, four boats with at least 600 people were intercepted and returned to Indonesia.In 2002, at least another four boats, SIEV 5, 7, 11 and 12 were returned to Indonesia while three boats (SIEV 4, 6 and 10) sank. In 2003, SIEV 14 attempted to make the voyage to Australia but was towed back, while a boat of 53 Vietnamese asylum seekers made it to the mainland at Darwin.

              On the subject on TPVs, the former Minister for Immigration and Citizenship, Chris Evans, has argued, along with many refugee advocates and journalists, that the introduction of TPVs was ineffective in reducing the number of unauthorised boat arrivals. They argue that it actually led to an increase in women and children undertaking the risky journey to Australia by boat, as TPVs did not provide family reunification rights (meaning that families could not rely on men travelling to Australia alone and bringing their wives and children out to join them once they had been granted protection):

              … the temporary protection visa regime was introduced in late 1999. Following that there was a small drop-off in arrivals. From December 1999 to November 2010 there were only 2,900 arrivals, as compared with 3,000 before that. So there was a small drop of about 100 to 2,900. From December 2000, a year after its introduction, until November 2001 there were 6,540 boat arrivals in the second year of the operation of the TPV regime. The claim that the TPV introduction halted arrivals is not supported by the evidence. … In fact, in the period after that there was a huge surge. Our figures show that in that period the percentage of women and children went from around 25 per cent to around 40 per cent. We saw more women and children taking the very perilous journey to come to Australia by unlawful boat arrivals

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    • Oof

      Lets ignore the fact for the moment that the experts support Anon when talking about Howard’s Nauru solution. How exactly would it work in the current environment?

      The boats would come over to Christmas Island … the over flow would go to Nauru … the refugees would be processed in exactly the same way as they are now … and this is going to be a deterent to the boat smugglers how?

      Am I missing something?

      Just saying something used to work and will work again without taking into account how the world has changed is a bit niaive. The horse and cart used to work and was much better for the atmosphere. Lets bring back the horse and cart.

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  6. FHB back from the dead

    A true tragedy that women and then children die. Being unalphabetical it must be in order of importance?

    Good to see societal attitudes summed up in headlines.

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  7. Karen

    Everyone would agree it’s a terrible situation… But why aren’t they seeking asylum somewhere closer to them and far safer to get to? Why on earth get on a boat in the first place? Why pick and choose where to go to? Surely if you’re an asylum seeker fleeing persecution in your home country you would flee to the safest neighbouring country instead of travelling all the way to Indonesia and then risking your life at sea so that you can come to Australia? It’s an awful situation, but it is just beyond me how they can’t find a safe country to flee to which is a bit closer to home…

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    • Anon

      In many cases, Australia is the closest country which has signed the refugee convention as most countries between here and the Middle East haven’t.

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      • Karen

        We seem to be only looking east.

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        • Anon

          And most countries to the west face other dangers in terms of crossing land and borders where war is often everywhere and movement is dangerous.

          On top of that, we are an English speaking country which is therefore attractive to those that understand the basics of what is the world’s most popular second language. Plus we take far fewer refugees than most countries to the west – which is not necessarily a motivating factor for the asylum seekers but probably a good reason for us to lift our game particularly as our economic situation is so much better than most those countries.

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          • Anonymous

            …or they pre planned coming here, and invested lots of money, as Australia was targeted for economic reasons. Lets dare to call it as it is shall we.

            Anyone is kidding themselves if they truely believe that there not safe ports on route from the middle east to Australia. Lets not be blinded to reality by PC assumtions that they are all true refugees who just happened to stumble into a boat and onto our shores shall we.

            I would prefer we were helping the starving in Africa ahead of Pakistanis pretending to be Afghans after destroying their papers.

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            • Jemie

              Just out of curiosity – where are you getting your information from that all/most asylum seekers who come to Australia by boat are economic migrants? I am genuinely interested to know why you think this?

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            • Karen

              I agree. There would have to be countries just as safe as Australia and a lot closer to where they are fleeing from, and a lot safer to travel to. Not all countries to the west or in Europe are at war. And not all countries to the east (or north for that matter) are unsafe either. I think a bit of common sense should prevail here. It’s such a shame that they put themselves in these overloaded boats and risk their lives, if not lose them.

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            • Anon

              And you have the patronising, white, less-save-the-poor-starving-Africans mentality as well. Note: if the Africans are starving and coming here, they are probably economic migrants. Which then contradicts what you said. In fact most Africans are coming here for the same reason Afghans are: they are fleeing war. If a few isolated cases of other nationals claiming to be Afghan is enough for you to create and perpetuate a useful stereotype, well, there is just no point me applying any effort to refute that.

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          • Frank Wer

            “Plus we take far fewer refugees than most countries to the west”

            Wrong – see the ministers own statement
            http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/cb/2012/cb186539.htm

            “‘Australia resettles the third largest number of refugees of any country, and we resettle more refugees, per capita, than any other nation.”

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            • Anon

              I’d be interested to see where the Minister got his figures from. I’m sure that he knows Australia’s figures but if, just for an example, Sweden has half our population and more than double (approaching triple, in fact) the resettled refugees on an annual basis – as it does – I’d love to know how their resettlement is less.

              The truth is its not. I trust the UNHCR figures – freely available on their website – which makes it clear that Aus is not even in the top 10. I’d urge you to chevk out the UNHCR – though I have to admit I suprised that the Minister has clearly said something whis is oh so clearly untrue. Did he really think he wasn’t going to get found out with those official figures so accessible of the UNHCR site?

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            • Anon

              Ok, so here is the story. The numbers the Minister referred to were simply the numbers that Australia accepts under the UN’s resettlement program. That is not the total number accepted by countries. Also, it only refers to the countries that accept a quota from this program, not countries that resettle refugees through their own programs.

              Check out the UNCHR’s website for the actual numbers and you will see that Australia is significantly below several other countries, both in total resettlements and in terms of a per capita basis.

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    • Jemie

      Karen – Many DO go elsewhere! We’re not all that special honestly!

      Asylum seekers that came to Australia in 2011 was 11,510
      By comparison:
      South Africa 171,702
      Canada 51,025
      Greece 47,099
      USA: 74,020
      France 51,910
      Germany 45,740
      Italy 34,120
      Sweden 29,650
      Ecuador 49,889
      and so on….

      Also interesting to note:

      Of the 10.55 million refugees (under UNHCR’s mandate), the largest numbers are being hosted by Pakistan (1,900,621), Iran (1,073,366),
      Syria (1,005,472), Germany (594,269), Jordan (450,915)

      What do you think now?

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      • Karen

        Sorry Jemie, not trying to be difficult or obtuse, but I still don’t get why then do they risk their lives to come here if there are other safe places to go to.

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        • Anon

          Because they will have to travel, whichever country it is that the seek asylum in.

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          • Karen

            But by boat, overloaded, on perilous seas?

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            • Anon

              Or in overloaded trucks driving through perilous mountain passes, where bandits drive around willing to kill. Seriously, there are multiple threats in these journeys and the boat isn’t necessarily safer nor more dangerous than the other options.

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            • Kim

              I’m pretty sure that when your situation is so bad that you just need to get out asap, you aren’t presented with a menu of available options to flee.

              An opportunity presents itself and you take it. Statistics seem to show that there are more opportunities in other countries and Australia is not being singled out as the land of plenty.

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            • Karen

              Are you really trying to say that evey road out of their country is thriving with bandits out to kill them? Surely not. Even so, they would have to travel through these perils anyway to get to Indonesia wouldn’t they, and then, face yet another peril by going to sea. Just doesn’t make sense. To face one perilous journey would be enough, but two??

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            • S

              Because who in their right mind would want to settle in Indonesia? There, I said it.

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            • Karen

              Okay, so we’re back to picking and choosing, not fleeing to the closest safe country for asylum. And please don’t tell me that Australia is the closest safe country that is a signatory to the UNHCR refugee convention.

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            • Lulu

              “please don’t tell me that Australia is the closest safe country that is a signatory to the UNHCR refugee convention”

              If it isn’t, then name closer countries.

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            • Karen

              There are several, see this list.
              http://www.unhcr.org/3b73b0d63.html

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            • Sah

              Karen – if you are really baffled by the hows and whys you should check out the documentary-style film by Michael Winterbottom, ‘In this world’, which tells the story of a 16-year-old Afghan boy who journeys by land and sea to London from a refugee camp in Pakistan.

              Summary by review-guru Roger Ebert:
              ‘The dilemma is that the planet has more undesirable societies to live in than desirable ones. The answer is perhaps not for the discontented and visionary to leave, but for them to stay and try to bring about change. Yet I instinctively identify with Jamal’s desire, and suspect that in his shoes, I would want to do what he has done. The next time I read about desperate immigrants trying to sneak into another land, the images in this film will inform me.’

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  8. anonymous_for_2today

    I feel so conflicted from just about every angle – having also read every comment.

    I came to Australia (legally) as a small child, and am eternally grateful for being raised and educated here.

    I see these people risking their lives every day, simply because they would like the opportunity to live a better life – the opportunities that we all take for granted every day…

    We see our pollies bickering over it almost every day… it’s been going on for so long now… no-one seems to be coming up with any viable solutions.

    And even if a “solution” is arrived at, not everyone (citizens/pollies etc) is going to be happy with the outcome.

    What’s the answer? I don’t know… just don’t know…

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    • Jemie

      I honestly think people need to be educated – you simply cant deny the facts once you are made aware of them and the more people who realise the truth of the matter, the closer we will be to a sane, practical and compassionate response to this issue.
      We’ll also stop being swayed by politicians who will continue to sadly politicise this issue in their own favour… I am amazed that people form their opinions on what either side of politics say are the issues and solutions, why not go to hear what those community groups and individuals who are experts in the issues and impartial to either side of politics suggest.

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  9. Anonymous

    Why does the media always point out when a boat has women on board. I can understand children, but women?? The implication is always that it is a bigger tragedy somehow when a woman drowns at sea than just a man. Point out the children, as this is a bigger tragedy than an adult granted. Dont however make out that women and kids are both some kind of higher class of tragedy than men please.

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    • maggie

      Agreed

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    • Another Anon Guy

      ‘Breaking: boat carrying 150 capsizes, women and children on board’

      Exactly. If its not women or children dying, its not news.

      Men – The disposable sex since 100000BC

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      • Shannon

        I was thinking the same thing. Though I get the children part – it’s particularly tragic when someone is killed if they haven’t even really been given the chance to give life a go. They’re also especially vulnerable.

        When I was considering this myself (i.e. why are women considered so special, in comparison to men? Surely all lives a equal?) I got to wondering if it is because of a perception that women from the countries of origin (or where we perceive them to come from) are more vulnerable than the men by virtue of culture. So we see them differently to the way we see themselves. E.g. there may have been a possibility that they were coerced by husbands/brothers/fathers to take this trip and because women are typically subordinate in that culture, these women may not have been in a position to question the decision.

        Not saying this is necessarily an accurate perception, but it is to some extent plausible. It crossed my mind, at least.

        All the same, my first reaction was the same as yours and I’m still having trouble trying to justify the apparent disregard for male lives lost.

        (Edit: didn’t mean to reply to Another Anon Guy. My response is just my thoughts on the thread generally, it’s not in reply to anyone in particular. Simply extending discussion rather than attempting a debate!)

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        • Another Anon Guy

          Heh, no worries.

          I’d suggest men’s disposability comes from the fact you only need a few men to father the next generation. Wombs are rare compared to sperm. That’s why cultures traditionally protect their woman and send their men out to undertake the dangerous work (war, hunting, door to door sales etc). Its always been this way since the dawn of time.

          That said, in modern times I think we can afford to move beyond biology and value all lives as equal.

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    • Lulu

      The media gives a rough description of the people on board the boat: ‘women & children’, ‘young men’ etc etc. If they say ‘women & children a lot’, that’s because the latest round of arrivals is ‘women & children’.

      I’ve just checked a couple of articles on The Age website, & they both just say ‘people’ & ‘asylum seekers’. The only mention of ‘women & children’ was in a quoted comment from Christopher Pyne: “Liberal frontbencher Christopher Pyne said the next time boats met tragedy on the way to Australia, ”if they are full of woman and children it will be on the heads of the government for pursuing the Malaysia solution”.”

      So I suppose it’s Pyne who values men’s lives as less.

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      • Anonymous

        You can not be serious. The age yesterday had the same headline as MM, as did most other media. So did The Project. The take out is very clear, society values female lives much higher than men.

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        • Lulu

          I repeat: If they say ‘women & children a lot’, that’s because the latest round of arrivals is ‘women & children’. We can revisit this discussion when a boat of men arrives/capsizes.

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          • Anonymous

            There was not only women and children on the latest boat lulu. It is pointed out as if to suggest that, given yhere were some women on board, it is somehow more tragic.

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  10. Jemie

    I posted this below, but wanted to highlight it again here as so many comments on this page are asking why we should help asylum seekers over Australia’s homeless and needy. Its not an either/or issue. If you hold this view point, you may be interested to know what the position of those involved in dealing with people affected by homeless and poverty every single day is:

    Please refer to the official position of ACOSS (Australian Council of Social Service – the national group representing Australians affected by poverty and inequality) they published a statement in The Australian Newspaper (Thursday 8 September 2011), signed by over 260 organisations including leading charities such as Mission Australia, Salvation Army, UnitingCare, Anglicare, and Brotherhood of St. Laurence, as well as a diverse range of grass roots community groups from the cities, and regional and rural Australia. Read it and you can see whether these organisations – who are at the forefront of helping the homeless in our community – do NOT vilify asylum seekers, do not ask that precedence is given to Australia’s homeless population over those seeking asylum – they also ask for the “Australian government to immediately rule out offshore processing
    and mandatory detention” as well as other points in line with adopting a more compassionate and humane response to this issue.

    http://www.acoss.org.au/images/uploads/Statement%20advertisement%20in%20The%20A

    You can find detailed individual statements and position documents on each of the major charity’s websites too…

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  11. Big fella at home

    What I can’t figure out is when Howard was PM the libs were OK with sending refugees to Nauru yet it only signed the refugee convention last year?

    http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e4889e6.html

    Now Tony Abbott is saying the biggest reason why they are saying no to Malaysia is because they have not signed the convention.

    Its blatant politics on his behalf

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  12. Jemie

    I posted a non offensive comment with links to the Asylum Seeker resource Centre website fact sheets – moderator team: is there a reason my comment was deleted? Are sharing links not allowed?

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    • jamilarizvi

      Hi Jemie

      We think it probably just got caught in the spam filter – that can happen with links. We’ll see if we can track it down and restore.

      Jamila

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      • Jemie

        Thanks for the response :-) Appreciated

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  13. Sophiebee

    On the homepage, why is there a photo of Tony Abbott next to the title “Breaking: boat carrying 150 capsizes, women and children on board”

    WHY have you used Tony Abbott’s photo next to this headline? Was it his policy that caused this? Why haven’t you used Julia Gillard’s photo?

    I would appreciate the author and/or Mamamia team answering this important question

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    • Sophiebee

      Ah, maybe THIS has something to do with it:

      “Jamila Rizvi is Mamamia’s Managing Editor. She has formerly worked as an adviser for both the Rudd and Gillard Governments. All opinions expressed here are her own.”

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      • jamilarizvi

        Hi Sophie Bee.

        We updated this story from earlier in the week. You’re right – the picture of Tony Abbott is no longer appropriate, so we’ve changed the image. Thanks for the reminder.

        Jamila

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        • Sophiebee

          Same headline from last week. It was NEVER an appropriate photo, one of your old boss would have been. Anyway, good on you for changing it, but your websites credibility is diminishing by the day. This photo was one of many examples of bias displayed by the Mama Mia team. The story on QLD politics (critical of Liberal, praising Labor) by Zoe Arnold, “freelance” journalist is another example that springs to mind. What mamamia forgot to mention is that Zoe Arnold is Craig Thompson’s wife & a former ALP advisor. This is just one of MANY examples.

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          • Jemie

            Sad that you think this story is about either side of politics. I cant see that reflected in the text of the article either, rather that both sides are guilty of inaction and politicising the issue.
            Perhaps an image of a grieving mother over her son’s washed up corpse would be more appropriate to bring home the real story here?

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          • Sue

            “This photo was one of many examples of bias displayed by the Mama Mia team”

            Bias??? For goodness sake, this is Mia’s individual website where she shares her opinion about things, and invites others to discuss topics. I don’t always agree with her opinion, but to criticise the bias is odd. If you’re looking for unbiased presentation of news, try a traditional newspaper.

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            • SophieBee

              I think Mamamia likes to present itself as a alternate news and current affairs outlet, on top of motherhood & parenting of course. Is this the case, Mamamia?

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  14. Another Anon

    Yet another – was working well under Howard and is now failing miserably under Gillard.

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    • Anon

      Howard’s solution was predicated on a combination of offshore processing (condemned by the UNHRC) and temporary protection visas (condemned by UNHCR, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch). The results, apart from limiting our world standing as a supporter of human rights and the rule of law? Nothing. Peaks and troughs in Australia’s asylum seeker arrivals have been influenced primarily through foreign affairs factors – wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka – not through domestic policy. And they pretty much correlate with arrival numbers in other countries on an annual basis. Yes, boat arrivals went down through the early part of Howard’s reign but then they shot up a

      So, please explain exactly how this was all working well under Howard because the UNHCR, Amnesty, HRW and a significant proportion of Australians did not think is was…nor do the numbers of arrivals support that assertion. But perhaps you have more credible figures that the ones I’ve used from the UNHCR website?

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  15. Jemie

    It saddens me to see time and time again how much misinformation there is.. so many of the negative opinions below are based on absolute incorrect information and have no factual basis. I urge anyone who feels negatively about the issue of asylum seekers to at least please educate themselves on the facts first. Don’t just simply base your opinions on what you think might be right, because your own fears and prejudices will likely get in the way. Educate yourself and if you still feel that these people are ‘illegal’ , ‘asylum seekers are ripping off our homeless and needy’, ‘boats should be stopped’ , ‘Australia is being swamped’, ‘there is no other way’, etc etc etc – then fine, come and discuss and debate the issue some more. But do not expect your opinions to be respected if they are based on untruths and misinformation.

    I cant recommend the ACRC’s myth busters enough by the way…

    http://www.asrc.org.au/media/documents/asrc-mythbuster-one-page.JPG
    http://www.asrc.org.au/media/documents/myth-busters-summary-Oct-2011.pdf
    http://www.asrc.org.au/media/documents/myths-facts-solutions-info-apr-2011.pdf

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  16. Guest 2

    I have never understood several things about the boat people.

    They are refugees not from Indonesia? so how did they get to Indonesia in the first place?

    They live in refugee camps in Indonesia? but can pay $000 to people smugglers to get them out of Indonesia. If there`s a family multiply that $000 by how ever many. Where is their money coming from?

    They have applied through the correct process to be granted refugee status to come to Australia? but they are impatient?

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    • Anon

      No, they are not from Indonesia. They go to Indonesia on the way to Australia. Indonesia is not a signatory to the UNHCR convention on refugees which means that the asylum seekers cannot be assured of their safety in Indonesia, they may be deported to their home countries at any time. They travel to Indonesia, often by boats.

      Refugee does not equal poor. There are professionals – doctors, engineers, lawyers – who have earned good money in their own countries who, through to circumstances beyond their control need to flee. They have their own money.

      And there is no ‘correct process’ to apply through. Anyone can turn up at a country – by plane, by foot, by boat, by truck – and claim asylum. There is *a* process in places where the UNHCR has a presence where there are refugee camps – often in countries where there has been geoncide or civil war, such as Sudan, DRC etc. In many other countries, there is little or no UNHCR presence (so no central coordination of refugees) and there is also no Australian diplomatic presence where people can go to an embassy and (presumably wait in a queue) to claim asylum.

      Hope this helps!

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      • Guest 2

        Thanks yes it helps some. You said there is no correct prodedure to apply for asylum status to come to Australia.
        So when they arrive in Indonesia they all then seek (pay) other ways to come to Australia? I would have thought that they would have to apply through our embassy there (Indonesia).
        How do the poor people who can`t afford to pay the people smugglers, the non professionals, who fled with very little, are they stuck in Indonesia forever?

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        • Big fella at home

          No different to the people who fly here then ask for asylum.

          Seems far more do that than arrive by boat looking at this -have a quick look at page 6…

          http://www.aph.gov.au/binaries/library/pubs/bn/sp/asylumfacts.pdf

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        • Guest at Mamamia

          I work within the asylum seekers and refugees sector and have heard many stories about how they travel to Australia. Generally, the arrangements are made from the source country (ie. their home country – Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Iran, Iraq…). That is, a smuggler is located, paid, and the entire journey (including their travel from Indonesia to Australia) is planned. So the asylum seeker does not necessarily have to fork out more money once in Indonesia. The travel routes vary, but generally asylum seekers travel through either Malaysia and/or Indonesia – both of which are not signatories to the Refugee Convention and therefore are not obliged to provide any protection whatsoever to asylum seekers.

          In regards to how they get the money to pay the smugglers, I often come across asylum seekers who have planned for years to leave and work to save the money to pay a smuggler. Others borrow money from loan sharks, and promise that once they arrive in Australia, they will work their ass off to pay that money back in remittances.

          Hope this clarifies things for you :)

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          • Guest 2

            Thanks that does clarify it more. But what happens to the really poor people? It now seems to me from reading the above that we only get refugees who have money (what ever way they obtained it) Surely that can`t apply to all our refugees that have been accepted into Australia?
            Maybe I am dumb but I always thought you flee your country to where ever its safest, you then apply for refugee status to the country that you choose, you wait (unfortunately) until that country processes your application. Am I wrong?

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        • Anon

          Good question regarding applying through the embassy in Indonesia. I don’t know if:

          a) it is legally possible for non-Indonesian nationals, though I presume that it is (Assange is an Australian national applying for asylum in the Ecuador embassy in the UK so I can’t imagine that the Australian system would be too different)

          b) asylum seekers would even consider that an option if they did not understand that it is technically Australian territory, especially if they have not have diplomatic offices in their own countries.

          There is also, of course, the practical matter of accommodating asylum seekers (from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka etc). within Indonesia which I imagine would be difficult. But, short answer to your question, I’ve got no idea!

          However, it terms of poor people fleeing, an extended family will often pool their money to pay the costs to the people smuggler. This may mean sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles and parents all pooling their money for a couple of go, probably on the understanding that, is asylum is granted, a family reunion visa could follow. That depends on a number of factors including the couple arriving safely in Australia, claiming asylum and then being granted refugee status and then applying for family reunion. This process would typically take years. By this time, they need to be able to show that they can sponsor the family member – that is, provide for them financially, so that they have no need for public funds. So, they will need to have a job, savings, accommodation etc. This is tricky as they can not work while they are still asylum seekers so they can only find work once they are granted refugee status.

          Then they have to start saving, do the applications etc. In many cases, it is probably too late for many of the family members to come to Australia or the country’s circumstances may have changed such that the family members no longer want to come to Australia.

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          • Guest 2

            Thanks Anon
            I understand the family reunion aspect and maybe I am naive but these refugees seem to be complete families (not all). What I am trying to fathom is have these boat refugees already applied to come to Au or is it that they decided Au is it and they will get here by any means cause they can afford too. What happens to the poor refugees?

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            • Anon

              So the poor people often pool their resources with the extended family all contributing so that they have enough money. I’m guessing they haven’t already applied to come to Australia as presumably they would be in a refugee camp if they had applied – in which case the UNHCR really decides the country.

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      • Guest

        Not exactly accurate Anon – I work with a lot of refugee clients from Sudan, Iraq, Malaysia etc – all of whom are on Centrelink payments, don’t have professional background (eg doctor etc that you refer to), most have limited skills from their homeland (eg have been farmers and not farmers in the westernised sense) and are unable to read/write in their own language, therefore they are highly unlikely to be able to learn to read/write English even 5 years+ of attending English classes at TAFE/community colleges. So they very much are dependent on public funds (Centrelink) long-term and potentially for the remainder of their lives.

        The refugee clients (who are all on Centrelink payments and not working, many of whom can’t get work because the refuse to attend AMEP classes during their first 13 of arrival and subsequent English classes after this initial timeframe) – these refugees all apply to have their extended families settled here (cousins, aunts, brother-in-law’s sister etc) and all of these extended family members are also accepted. After a few years of being here, quite a lot of my Sudanese clients then travel back to Sudan to visit family members – I really struggle with understanding that they flee a country based on civil war and fear losing their life, yet return (I get that they miss their remaining families).

        Problem is, the government is setting these refugees up for ‘failure’ because they settle a fair proportion of them in regional areas. The regional area I live in, the average length of unemployment is 3 years (ie someone who can speak English, read and write, qualifications eg TAFE and has a work history), the area has one of the highest levels of unempolyment at a State and Federal level, as well as extremely low-income in general, there is no work opportunities for ‘unskilled’ workers (eg no manufacturing industry, no farm work etc), a 50% more likelihood of homelessness if you’re on income support payments in comparison to Sydney, extreme shortage of rental accommodation and the list goes on, yet the government continues to settle new refugee families in this area and more are arriving next week.

        So whilst I appreciate the hardship and unimaginable experiences refugees and asylum seekers experience – in order to accept more, we need to have the resources and infrastructure in place to effectively settle them … and facts are, we don’t have that and aren’t coping with the refugees we have at present.

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        • Anon

          I wouldn’t say that my point is not accurate – it is just not the same experience as yours. I didn’t say that all refugees or even most are professionals, I was simply pointing out that there are some who are professional or who are not poor. Certainly I have had experience working with refugee professionals and my brother in law is a refugee who was a para-professional and who has gone on to study at university. I won’t disagree that there are many who do not have even a high school education (or not at the Australian standard anyway) or who do not speak the language.

          However, I do not think the issues experienced in your area mean that we aren’t coping with the refugees were have at present – I believe that it simply means that we are not managing the situation well. In terms of resettlement, there needs to be due consideration as to the location – if there are already unemployment problems, if there is little opportunity for unskilled work, if there is a lack of suitable accommodation…well, the government should not be sending them there. That is not to say that we should not be accepting them.

          I honestly do not understand why a country with a population much less than half of ours, like Sweden, can accommodate well over twice the number of refugees as Australia can. If the issues in your area were symptomatic of the broader situation in Australia, I’d accept that. But the fact is, there are parts of the country that do not have a massive housing crisis, that have very low unemployment (and plenty of opportunities for unskilled labourers) and these areas could reasonably accommodate asylum seekers.

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  17. Guest

    Wouldn`t more lives be saved if these boats were stopped from departing from where ever they are departing from? It`s not as if these hundreds of people are just sneakily boarding these boats in a secret location, someone must know about where they are boarding. Australian authorities actively working along side those countries border security might save more lives.

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    • Jemie

      No – though trust me the Australian government tries very hard and funds this heavily in Indonesia. Desperate people and profiteering people smugglers will always find a way…
      But whether they die at sea on our ‘back door’ or not, these people are NOT safe in Indonesia. Indonesia is not signatory to the UN refugee conventions and can and does persecute asylum seekers and can send them back to die back where they escaped from. So perhaps out of sight, out of mind for us here, but that’s not the solution to saving lives.

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  18. Realist

    It is all very sad, however if Gillard didn’t offer them the world then they wouldn’t risk coming here. But no, she offers them medical, housing, schooling etc so of course they are all going to risk their lives. Most aren’t even legitimate asylum seekers. If the policy doesn’t change soon, then we will end up in the same state as the UK, Italy, The Netherlands etc. They have taken on way more than Oz and are now paying for it dearly. I have lived in both the UK and The Netherlands so I know how much of a mess those countries have become. You can only help so many.

    The most ironic thing is that the people who profess to support asylum seekers (eg. Jessica Rowe) all live in their ivory towers far away from where asylum seekers actually settle. Place a boat load of asylum seekers in Rose Bay and let’s see what happens….

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    • Anon

      Where to start? Firstly, Australia offers them the bare minimum compared to what many other countries do. Despite the fact that we are one of the strongest economies and wealthiest countries on earth. We have signed an international convention promising to support the most vulnerable people – are you suggesting we just rip that up? If that is the case, I might object to my tax dollars even supporting you should you require it. But I don’t. Because, you know, I kind of care about people who are not so fortunate as me.

      Secondly, your statement that most are not even proper asylum seekers is a downright lie, and an obvious one at that. Here’s a hint – you want your argument to have any credibility? Don’t make your lie so obvious.

      Thirdly, as someone who has lived in the UK, France and through Africa and the Caribbean, I also have seen the impacts of countries which accept asylum seekers and those where asylum seekers come from. The UK’s problems (in my opinion, after having lived there for over 6 years) are not at all to do with asylum seekers. Immigration in the UK has been problematic due to the rights of any EEA nationals to migrate to the UK and legally work, obtain welfare etc. without the UK having the right to manage/control that. Of course, the fact that the UK retained the pound and the fact that UK rates of pay were significantly higher than comparable roles in many of the continental countries encouraged more and more continental Europeans to make the UK their home. The significant immigration – immigration, rather than asylum – prior to that came from former colonies, and the NHS relied on the labour of Jamaican, Nigerian and Indians nurses and doctors for many decades – as did many other industries. Asylum seekers are not the problem, the problem is the filth that is spouted in the Daily Mail and the Sun and perpetuated by those foolish enough to not recognise it for what it is – racist, xenophobic vitriol!

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      • Realist

        I’m not saying that it is not heart breaking, but I am saying that you can’t help the whole world. I’m entitled to my opinion just as much as you are. As a Londoner, I’m more than aware of the UK’s immigration policy so I don’t need you to tell me that nor do I need you to tell me how to give my statement credibility. Thanks.

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        • Anon

          It is not about whether it is heartbreaking or not. It is about doing the right thing, in compliance with our obligations and human rights legislation. And being honest about what we’re doing and why. We are not being honest when we deny that many more asylum seekers come by plane than boat, we are not being honest when we claim that they are coming here illegally, we are not being honest when we claim that they get free mobile phones and twice the government support as pensioners (or whatever the latest ill-informed redneck comments going around on FB are). We are either ill-informed or lying if we don’t understand that asylum seekers coming from many parts of the Middle East and Asia will not pass another country which has signed the convention on their journey here (scuttling the argument that other countries are simply ‘stepping stones’) and we are either ill-informed or lying if we don’t understand that not all people have passports to bring with them, neither can they obtain them, not all people live in a country with an Australian diplomatic presence and therefore can’t join the mythical ‘queue’.

          And yes, while you continue to not acknowledge the lie in your comment ‘Most aren’t even legitimate asylum seekers’ I will continue to tell you how to give your statement credibility. That is, to be honest.

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          • masd270248

            Yay, Anon, for saying it as it is!!!!

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    • Guest

      *bangs own head against wall repeatedly*

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    • Jemie

      ‘realist’ – your ignorant and uninformed comment depresses me.. How can we make any progress when there are real Australian who hold opinions such as you do… *Sigh*

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    • Juet srey

      Realist or racist? So hard to tell from your diatribe so full of non factual information.

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  19. Caz Gibson

    “Another Anon” is closer to the truth I think…………..the whole “boat people” plight is heartbreaking and the image of people boarding boats that are clearly overcrowded and unseaworthy is horrible………..I’m getting very uneasy about the spreading tone of fascism on FaceBook in both religion and politics – I’m worried about the lack of general knowledge amongst the under-40′s and the parroting of extreme right-wing vitriol from teenagers who clearly have learnt this ignorant crap at their parents knees……….where’s the empathy and understanding for desperate people who are can see no other course but to risk their miserable lives on a stinking boat in shark & pirate-infested waters?………People seem to have lost the ability to even imagine what that would be like – to risk your family’s lives after years of war, disease, persecution, cruelty and starvation……..People don’t seem to get the fact that there are NO “cues to jump” and NO “proper channels”. In their countries of origin the’re’s corruption, “secret police”, death for people planning to escape and that stomach-churning ever-present fear. Their society has broken down and some of them are fleeing the lethal damage caused by armed, unmanned drones sent by the “West”………..The boats will keep coming…..the refugee problem will increase in the coming years as the need is so great………………I’m so sick of seeing cynical accusations of “economic refugees” – as if a shitty slogan could cloud the real issues of this world-wide trauma……………………….Indonesia doesn’t give a rats about what Australia thinks and our politicians are showing their culpability and disregard by squabbling about “solutions” instead of truly acting as humanitarians ………….People are dying, children are dying, babies are dying and the opportunities to save those who might be eternally grateful to our country for it’s kindness will be lost…..

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  20. Anonymous

    It costs $80000 to process an asylum seeker, there are currently 1500 in detention on Christmas Island. Think of the homeless Australians that could be housed with that money !!
    Charity starts at home !! Also, to all the “do gooders” out there, how many asylum seekers are you sponsoring to board at your house ?

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    • Lulu

      Probably the same as the number of homeless people you’re sponsoring.

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    • Jackie

      I want to reply but there is no way to get through to some people.

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    • Anon

      As someone who has both registered to accept asylum seekers into my home (just waiting for it to all be approved – fingers crossed!) and as someone who has a homeless sister, I’ll give you my view.

      Homelessness is not as simple as people having no money, no government support and no housing. Homelessness is often related to substance abuse and/or mental illness. Those are the things that need to be addressed in order to reduce homelessness. Homeless people stay homeless because their substance misuse or mental health issues have not been addressed. About 33% of homeless people had substance abuse problems before they were homeless and this was a contributing factor to them becoming homeless. Other major reasons why people become homeless include domestic violence, family breakdown and the loss of a job/income. It is important to note also that homeless does not equate to sleeping rough – the term homeless is applied to a range of situations where someone is not in a stable situation with regards to their accommodation. It can be applied to people who are staying with family or friends on an extended basis or couch surfing or who are in temporary accommodation.

      My sister is in the minority and does sleep rough. She has been in and out of prison owing to crime associated with her heroin addiction. She is offered temporary accommodation (I believe it is pretty dodgy) when she gets out of prison and ultimately ends up back on the streets. And, before I get judged for not doing more, we as a family have had literally hundreds of thousands of dollars lost and stolen to treating her addiction, paying her legal fees and raising her child.

      It is not simply a matter of giving all homeless people enough money to find accommodation nor is it a matter of building more accommodation for them. For all those who seem to constantly raise this as an argument against a humane approach to fulfilling our obligations under an international convention to which we are signed up, know that homelessness is NOT a result of spending money on asylum seekers.

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      • Polly

        :Hugs to you, not only to your situation but also to the putting it forward.

        I really get tired of simplistic solutions constantly being put forward for complex issues. I sometimes think that it has something to do with the “media sound bite” age that we live in.

        Or perhaps it has more to do with our belief that if people would only do what we want then we could get world peace.

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    • Jemie

      That the government spends such a huge amount of money imprisoning people with no good reason is terrible and unnecessary.. it doesn’t have to cost that much and there’s a million good arguments to abolish the mandatory detention system. Cost savings to tax payers is just one small reason.
      I always find it interesting when people scream “but what about OUR OWN PEOPLE”… “what about our homeless, etc…” The official position of EVERY SINGLE charity in this area such as Salvation Army, Vinnies, etc, i.e. the actual front line groups that are assisting the homeless and deal with these issues day in and out is that the current treatment of asylum seekers is abhorrent, wrong and should be changed. They support increasing Australia’s humanitarian support, community processing and real change in this area. Look it up!

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  21. ash

    What concerns me is how little people know about politics and our government. Uninformed people continuously criticise both party leaders for not doing enough, when they don’t actually realise the process behind getting things through parliament. It concerns me because it’s these people who vote … I don’t like the idea of people voting Liberal because ‘Julia Gillard couldn’t stop the boats’ etc.

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    • Anon

      I don’t need to know the process for getting things through parliament, I simply need to know that something (effective) is being done about it. To develop a policy (the East Timor solution) without having first undertaken the necessary diplomatic work to see that it was even feasible i.e. that East Timor would agree to it, was impulsive and reactionary, not visionary and not leadership. To continue to insist on offshore processing – which the UNHCR explicitly does not recommend – is pandering to the hate that Abbott has been so successful in whipping up. I believe that people voted Labor because they wanted an alternative – no wonder so many of the disenchanted Labor voters are going to the Greens!

      Labor has the numbers, in both Houses should they choose, to proceed with an onshore processing solution which would obtain the support of the Greens. They could have done this a long time ago, not waited until more people died in horrific conditions awaiting processing. That is what I am criticising and will continue to criticise.

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  22. timelady

    I have said on Google Plus that Tony Abbott claims to be a Christian. Hmm. Not seeming to be like that at all – not as I understand the teachings, anyway, and I am outside looking in (ex Catholic, so some concept).

    I keep wondering how we would feel if Australia stopped being the land of plenty, and across the wide seas was the only hope for anything better for OUR children…

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  23. Anon

    I feel strongly that we need to offer onshore processing outside of the detention centres using a more humane model, perhaps based on Sweden.

    The accommodation provided by the Swedish Migration Board for asylum seekers (‘accommodation centres’) is often spread out between various residential areas in municipalities and mainly consists of self-catering apartments. Organised activities are offered to asylum seekers aged between 18 and 64. These consist mainly of Swedish lessons, but also lessons in English and IT, for example. The aim of these organised activities is to contribute to a meaningful existence during the waiting period and ultimately to facilitate becoming established in Sweden if the asylum seeker is granted a residence permit, or to facilitate a return if his or her application is rejected. Critically, asylum seekers also have the opportunity to work from the first day after their arrival.

    I believe that the party whose policy will most closely resemble this is the Greens. Having said that, I think that we do need to address the problem of people smuggling and I’m not sure how to go about that – I don’t think any party is. What are the disincentives for people smuggling? Longer prison sentences? NZ is now doing 20 yr prison sentences and up to $500,000 fines for those who support people smugglers. Any other ideas?

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    • Anna

      The Swedish system sounds so sensible and humane! that is exactly what I wish we were doing in aus. Thanks for commenting.

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    • Amandarose

      Different situation in Europe. We have a big problem with a treacherous sea between Indonesia and here and people are dying.

      Great solution for safe arrivals but I do think we are contributing to deaths by allowing people to drown.

      The Malaysia solution is not designed to hurt people rather deter them from. Leaving it the first place. The reality is if it works we won’t be sending people to Malaysia as they will stop going via sea.

      It may seem mean but the big picture is lives saved.

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  24. Jen

    This whole argument makes me so sad. Sure Australia has it’s own problems, and people struggle here as well, but a bad day here isn’t even close to what the refugees are fleeing. I just wish there was a bit more compassion in the whole debate. We didn’t do anything to earn being born in Australia, it was just luck in our favour and bad luck which dictated where the refugees were born. We have to move beyond policies of stopping the boats which in reality is about making this problem, not our problem.

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    • anon

      I have compassion for genuine refugees, I also have compassion for the lady who is homeless , lives in her car and has to change her colostromy bag in her car. Tell her her life’s not even close to a bad day. All I’m saying is we need to put our homeless in homes first. Why are able to house thousands of refugees , but thousands of Australian men, women and children are homeless.

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      • Jen

        I have compassion for the homeless as well. However I don’t believe that this is an either/or issue. I can never understand why people turn on the help we offer other people in need rather than on other areas of government spending. Why not target the spending on our olympic atheletes, on anti smoking ads, on upgrading and maintaining public parks, on travel, on baby bonuses etc… why does it always come down to a battle between our homeless vs the refugees???

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      • Mel

        We’re not housing them, we’re detaining them. I think there’s quite a big difference. Why do we have to choose? Why can’t we take care of both? They’re all homeless in the end.

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      • Jemie

        Absolutely not an either/or issue – please refer to the official position of charity groups which look after the homeless and vulnerable in our community, they deal with these matters every day and dont agree with your line of thinking.

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  25. GUEST

    leadership where leadership is due….the time is now for Julia Gillard to take leadership, has she forgotten she is the prime minister- it isn’t for Tony Abbot to negotiate(!!!), she is able to get carbon tax through but won’t make a stance on refuges????? the big concern and Julia Gillard knows it should we be processing in Malaysia, are they a member of the united nations how will they treat the refugees? Christine Milne has made some interesting points on this…. she cant make a decision on this because it doesn’t involve unions??????…. julia time to put your neck on the line and make a decision so you can’t blame others on this one!!! every other prime minister has done it!!!!

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    • Faybian

      In a minority govt Labor needs to negotiate things like this. The Greens probably supported the carbon tax, enabling it to be passed, but they don’t support off shore processing, so Labor needs to get support where it can and the LNP have previously used this, so support is more likely to come from them.

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  26. Leftie

    Here is a viable solution from left field.

    Why don’t we give Christmas Island to Indonesia.

    It then becomes a really, really (as in really) long way to come to Australia by boat. Just have a look at the map. That is a deterent and a half.

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    • Big fella at home

      We wound up with Christmas Island (which was part of the UK) around the time Malaysia got it;s independence from the UK and Singapore went its own way from Malaysia.

      At the time neither us, the Poms or the Malaysians were on good terms with Indonesia… hence the dispute called ‘The Indonesian Confrontation’

      Essentially we wound up with Christmas Island so that if it the powers that be decided that Jakarta needed to be bombed there was a place from which the planes could do it from.

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      • Leftie

        How interesting.

        I did not know that.

        I did hear that one of the Liberal ministers proposed that we use Christmas Island as a base to launch satellites until someone showed him the geography and gave him a political lesson on situation of the day. Labour doesn’t hold a monopoly on stupidity.

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      • Karen

        I was once a resident for many years on Christmas Island (my husband was working there) and we used to watch the refugees come ashore at Flying Fish Cove. It astounded us that a lot of them had masses of jewellery on. Each time we saw a boat on the horizon we (the residents) would have to race into the one and only supermarket to stock up, because the supplies would be bought to feed the refugees and quite often it was at least a month or two before a ship called in with more supplies (this was before the detention centre was built). It used to be that refugees sought asylum in the nearest country, and what confuses me is how they now seem to pick and choose which country they flee to. Why is it now acceptable that they pass through Indonesia (and other countries in between) to reach their goal of living in Australia? A true refugee would surely seek asylum in the nearest neighbouring country. I am not saying we should not take them, but there are a lot of other people who do it the right way and don’t try to get in through the back door.

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        • anon

          I always wonder why most leave their wives and children behind too. If a situation is bad enough for the husband to leave , why would you leave your loved ones behind.

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          • Leftie

            Because once they are accepted as genuine refugees, their family can fly in.

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          • Jemie

            Because if you were about to embark on a dangerous journey that you knew would possibly end in your own death and sea and at the very least mandatory detention, much hardship ahead of being accepted as a refugee, you wouldn’t want your wife and children to go through that danger – you’d face it alone and then bring them over to join you once confirmed a refugee. The fact that some do come with their family shows the desperation of the situation.
            Also to Karen – I work with these people and seriously doubt they are fleeing with buckets of gold, but if you were fleeing forever with no way back you would consolidate what little possessions you have into the most mobile and valuable currency i.e. gold.
            Your lack of compassion and vilification just depresses me…

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            • Karen

              Just stating it as it was then. I don’t think I mentioned buckets. Whether you doubt that is neither here nor there, and of course it occurs to me that is the only way to take your valuables when fleeing. I make no judgements whatsoever. Everyone would agree it’s a terrible situation… but why on earth get on a boat in the first place, why not seek asylum somewhere closer to them and far safer to get to??

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            • Jemie

              Because they are simply not safe there – One example: there are millions of Afghan refugees in Pakistan, the neighbouring country that they have first escaped to. One issue is that they are not safe there, the Taliban are present in great numbers and most Hazaras are in real danger there. This is plainly stated by every human rights organisation, i.e. amnesty etc.. So they may travel on to Malaysia, Indonesia etc – they are illegal there, these countries have not signed the refugee convention. Asylum seekers are treated horribly there, canned and persecuted amongst others, they have limited access to the UNHCR offices to even claim asylum and no lovely orderly queue exists – meanwhile their families are likely still behind and in danger and they cannot afford to wait 10-20 plus years. I know of people who have died waiting, their families have died waiting. So, they beg, borrow, steal do whatever they need to do, pay the people smuggler, get on the risky boat journey and come to claim asylum in Australia.
              This is of course just one scenario… there are many others

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  27. Judie

    I’m going to put on my big girl panties because I know my point of view is going to be unpopular, however, it is my point of view.

    The whole “seeking asylum is not illegal” thing has me troubled. Whilst it may not be illegal, surely it is immoral to go through another country first to seek said asylum? The passengers on the boats that arrive here have first entered another country, legally. They have passports and other identification papers, and, obviously, money (they are often charged tens of thousands of dollars to try to come to Australia). Strangely, by the time they are picked up here, none of them have ID or passports. None of them have money either. It leads me to believe that they are financial refugees, rather than genuine ones.

    I have no doubt that the some of them are fleeing persecution and war. I have no doubt that most of them are fleeing to provide a better life for them and their families. I do have a problem, however, with the way they go through Indonesia to do it, using Indonesia as a stepping stone to Australia. I also have a problem with the fact that, though we give millions in aid to Indonesia, the government there has no interest in helping stop the people smuggling. In fact the latest boat was spotted inside Indonesian waters, but the Indonesians said that since Australia had spotted it first, it was our problem.

    The whole thing is a mess that needs to be resolved. Perhaps we need to find a way to make it easier for people to legally apply for asylum whilst they are legally in Indonesia?

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    • elle

      Where are you getting your facts from about asylum seekers who come via boat? Have you ever met someone who has come here on a boat ? If they were not genuine refugees why would they risk getting on a boat and travelling across wild oceans?

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      • anon

        why is it so hard to believe that some are not genuine refugees and a lot make the journey for financial reasons? you cannot be that naive.

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        • elle

          Because getting on a boat and risking your life is not something people do unless desperate. If I was trying to move to another country for financial reasons I would go there on a travel visa and overstay like some of the English do here! Wouldn’t you? I’m hardly going to risk dying on a boat unless the situation I am in at home is extreme.
          If you look at the stats you’ll see over 90% of asylum seekers arriving by boat are found to be genuine refugees. You cannot be that uninformed!

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          • anon

            some people just do not want to believe that many come here for financial reasons. They do. not all of them, but some do.
            The people that come here by plane , you say, come to work illegally not claim asylum. They don’t claim centrelink, get housing , Medicare , dental etc etc etc.

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            • Lulu

              The majority of asylum seekers arrive by plane, so I don’t quite understand what you’re saying.

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            • anon

              You are wrong. The majority DO NOT arrive by plane otherwise they all would. It cost less than $10 000 to come by plane. When you come by plane you have your passport etc. when you pay thousands to get on a boat and, destroy all you identifying documents , something tells me you are NOT genuine. What’s so hard to understand.

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            • Another Anon

              No, you are wrong, anon. The majority do arrive by plane, about 95% of them, in fact. The stark difference is that those that come by boat are much more likely to be asylum seekers than those that arrive by planes. Those that arrive by boat come primarily from Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Iraq…check out a map on countries on the way that are signatories to either the convention or both the convention and the protocol. I think that you’ll find there are precisely none!

              Oh, and with regard to destroying paperwork, that assumes that these people have paperwork in the first place. That they have had a passport issued. That they have had time to collect their paperwork before fleeing their place. That it hasn’t been lost on the journey along the way. If you are coming from Afghanistan, where would you go to apply for a passport? Particularly if you are ethnic Hazara and are being persecuted and killed. Would the Iranian authorities be particularly obliging in issuing passports for their citizens to flee to other countries? I think not.

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            • Leftie

              Sorry anon, Lulu is correct. The majority of “illegals” do arrive by plane. You might like to try these two articles (yes, yes, I know one has been written by a journalist but I am feeling lazy today).

              http://www.aph.gov.au/binaries/library/pubs/bn/sp/asylumfacts.pdf

              http://www.gettingdownunder.com/2011/11/21/13-times-more-illegal-immigrants-arrive-by-plane-than-by-boat/

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    • Anon

      Indonesia is not a signatory to the 1951 UNHCR convention on the status of refugees. As such, Indonesia does not necessarily respect the right to claim asylum and cannot assure the safety of those claiming asylum. Indonesia is not the only country on the way to Australia which is not a signatory.

      There are some really interesting reports on the UNHCR site which give more (balanced) information than you will find in the media. For example, this extract from the 2011 report entitled ‘Asylum Levels and Trends in Industrialised Countries’:

      The number of asylum-seekers in Australia and New Zealand decreased by 9 per cent during 2011 (11,800 claims) compared to the previous year (13,000). It is primarily in Australia that the decrease occurred with 11,500 claims, down 9 per cent from 2010. It is the first decrease observed in six years, and is due to fewer asylum-seekers arriving to Australia by boat. One third of asylum-seekers in Australia originate from Afghanistan or the Islamic Republic of Iran. Asylum levels in Australia remain below those recorded by many other industrialized and non-industrialized countries.

      Or these figures:

      Australia has 0.5 claims per 1000 inhabitants, ranking us 18th in terms of intake. That equates to 0.3 per 1 USD/GDP. And we have one of the strongest economies in the world right now. So, what about other countries?

      France has 1.5 claims per 1000 inhabitants, three times as many as Australia. That equates to 1.5 USD/GDP! Canada is a similar sized economy to Australia and has 0.7 claims per 1000 inhabitants at a cost of 0.6 USD/GDP – twice Australia’s! Sweden, a country with less than half the population of Australia, has 3.2 claims per 1000 inhabitants (over 6 times Australia’s!) with 0.8 USD/GDP.

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  28. JulieS

    I’m just old enough to remember the end of the Vietnam war. For a few years we saw boat people. Now most are an integral part of our population and culture, so I can’t see why we are being fooled by the fear campaign. Welcome these people already!!

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  29. amandarose

    It is a complicated issue and it is easy to see why people want to stop people smuggling as many people drown.

    No right answer here but i do think letting in more refugees and detering smugglers is a good thing as people shouldn’t drowning

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  30. B

    I just wish this could have been debated in parliament more yesterday instead of Tony Abbott suspending standing orders for THE 61ST TIME!!!!!
    As a swinging voter, please, PLEASE Malcolm come back so I can vote for the Libs at the next election. I simply refuse to with that buffoon leading them. YOU LOST TONY! Now please get on with dealing with these issues….

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  31. Guest

    Why not info on how Malaysia is a terrible idea? The headline is very anti-Abbott and reads as if the Labor govt are offering some workable solution and Abbott just won’t negotiate.

    I don’t mind having an ex-Labor staffer write. We all have our biases and opinions. But to not point out how inhumane the Malaysia solution is is pretty selective writing.

    The headline creates a misleading perception. Abbott is not offering much himself, but he is not negotiating with Gillard because all she is offering is the horrendous idea of sending people to a country that is not a signatory to the convention and who treats refugees despicably. Not clear at all from this piece what is really going on – one side offering a terrible deal, the other side saying ‘no’.

    And I say that as a Labor voter.

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    • jamilarizvi

      Hiya Guest,

      I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve just said. The Malaysia solution doesn’t sit right with me for exactly the reason you mentioned – I am uncomfortable with the idea that Australia would send people who sought asylum in our country, to a place that is not a signatory to the Convention.

      But I quite intentionally didn’t make a comment on the merits or otherwise of Labor, the Coalition, or the Greens’ proposed policy solutions. I just put the facts on the table about what each party’s position was – so people could make up their own minds.

      This was because the point I was aiming to make with this piece was that the political impasse has to end. All parties across the spectrum are to blame for the current stalemate but the Government has made this one small step – and I think the Coalition need to do the same.

      Jamila

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      • Guest

        It is true that Abbott won’t negotiate, it is too much of a vote winner for him, but this headline doesn’t make it clear Gillard wasn’t offering to negotiate properly either – she just trotted out the same old Malaysian policy and then went ‘see he won’t negotiate!’ She was political point scoring too.

        She won’t negotiate properly either and if you really think that all parties are to blame then the headline would be better not putting all the blame on Abbott.

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      • Mel

        One interesting fact that gets completely lost in this debate: Indonesia is NOT a signatory to the Refugee Convention.

        So Tony Abbott is against Malaysia because it’s not a signatory, but a big part of his policy is turning boats back… to Indonesia.

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      • elle

        I am confused that you say you are impartial and just putting the facts on the table. You said above ‘For me, Professor Clive Kessler said it best in today’s Sydney Morning Herald’ and he goes on to basically support the go ahead of the Malaysia solution. As I understand you seem to be saying we should take the first step with Malaysia as its better than nothing. However in the comment above you say the Malaysia solution doesn’t sit right with you?

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  32. Tess

    Thanks for the summary Mamamia. I disagree with your writer because I think the Greens are right but it was good to know who stands where and who believes what.

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    • CassieT

      I don’t agree with this at all because I think we need to help Australians before we help foreigners especially when these people are coming here illegally. SOmeone below mentioned the homeless but we should be remembering (as well) the people who are sick and on waiting lists for hospital but I do like that MM is doing these cheat sheets again because it makes it easier to understand what is going on and assists me in fleshing out my own opinion on political things.

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      • Guest

        Seeking asylum is not illegal!

        No one is coming here illegally. If you want to flesh out your opinions, which is great, maybe do some further reading on how seeking asylum is legal.

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      • Emma

        Are we not allowed to care about more than one disadvantaged group at once? What a childish view of how compassion works.

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      • Alic

        I agree with guest – seeking asylum
        Is NOT illegal people!!! Please stop taking your understanding of what is legal and what is not from
        A Current Affair!!!

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      • elle

        Oh Lord. There is SO much help for Australians! We are so so very blessed in this country! Why wouldn’t we provide a home for those fleeing awful situations? The vast majority of Australians (or their ancestors) are immigrants. Many came on boats !

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        • bebe

          “there’s so much help for Australians”, tell that to all the homeless children.

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        • bebe

          why wouldn’t we provide a home for a homeless family or a homeless man or a homeless woman. We provide homes and everything they need, for refugees, but thousands of our own citizens are left out I the cold literally .

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          • elle

            We DO provide heaps of homes for homeless men & women! And there are lots of services for homeless kids. We can also assist refugees!

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            • Guest

              Elle -you obviously don’t work with people who are homeless and can’t afford accommodation. The regional area of NSW that I live in, has a 50% higher rate of homelessness in comparison to Sydney for people who are on income support payments from Centrelink, because they can’t afford rental accommodation, there are no boarding houses in the area, caravan parks in the area are at capacity, the waiting list for a Dept of Housing property is 12 years, etc. Therefore their only option is to sleep down at the beach, in a park, behind a toilet block, etc. Housing NSW can only assist with paying for emergency accommodation for two weeks, then they’re on their own.

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  33. bebe

    I would like to see all the homeless people here in homes before one more illegal refugee is. The number of children that are homeless in this country is a bloody disgrace.

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    • Sarah McM

      There is nothing, repeat, nothing illegal about coming to Australia – on a boat, or on a plane – to seek asylum. They have broken no laws.

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      • bebe

        I would still like to see homeless children that are Australian citizens housed first.

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    • amandarose

      People get government housing in australia. We get support if homeless, we get rental subsidies and charities help people who cannot afford bond.
      If people are homeless it is not the governments fault.

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      • bebe

        with all this assistance you speak of, we shouldn’t have any children
        homeless. Unfortunately there are thousands, and we should help them first. If we can find housing for refugees we should be able to house our homeless children.

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      • Guest

        Do you have any idea of the wait for government housing? Try years, decades even.

        For a single person or a couple without children there is no housing. All you are entitled to is a standard government benefit like Newstart or the Disability – if you are eligible – and whatever you can get from a charity.

        The government benefits are for most people not enough to pay rent and live on. Especially Newstart which is far below the poverty line.

        If you suddenly end up a homeless person no one is going to put a roof over your head. Many people end up without jobs through no fault of their own, like illness, and then they don’t qualify for enough of a benefit to pay rent on and they are homeless. Charities are already stretched to breaking point.

        I know social workers and they say there simply are no housing options beyond the emergency unless you have children, and even if you do it’s hard.

        The government does not come even close to housing everyone that needs help, and charities are stretched thin.

        Because our homeless are not really out on the street in large numbers in a visible way many be are unaware of the problem.

        I still think we can help refugees AND homeless, just wanted to post a more accurate picture of homelessness in Australia.

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      • Oof

        Homelessness is a complicated issue – as is the refugee issue.

        A huge number of homeless people have mental issues that make them difficult to keep in housing.

        And there are those that don’t want to come to the attention of the authorities, particularly if they are young and have run away from home for whatever reason.

        And then there is simply the lack of available housing. For evidence, please see the length of the waiting list.

        And it is not just a question of building more and more. We have a lady down the street who is on her own in a four bedroom house because her husband has died and all the children have left home. Logically she should be moved, but morally…? And if she is moved, where to?

        It is easy to stand at the sidelines and offer solutions (a bit like telling the coach how to do his job) but all these issues are complex.

        While Tony is on the sidelines, he can sound clever (now if Julia would only listen) and all his solutions are so straight forward and easy (for the sound bite) and we will all cheer him on to his landslide victory and the next election.

        I suggest that we talk again once he has been in power for 12 months. Will that be a different song I hear?

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    • elle

      Why can we not do both? Are you talking about kids that are homeless with their families or alone? In my experience there are some great services for homeless families and children (up to 18). After 18 the demand is higher and it can take some time to find somewhere suitable.

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    • Jemie

      Please refer to the official position of ACOSS (Australian Council of Social Service – the national group representing Australians affected by poverty and inequality) they published a statement in The Australian Newspaper (Thursday 8 September 2011), signed by over 260 organisations including leading charities such as Mission Australia, Salvation Army, UnitingCare, Anglicare, and Brotherhood of St. Laurence, as well as a diverse range of grass roots community groups from the cities, and regional and rural Australia. Read it and you can see whether these organisations – who are at the forefront of helping the homeless in our community – do NOT vilify asylum seekers, do not ask that precedence is given to Australia’s homeless population over those seeking asylum and also support ending mandatory detention and a more compassionate and humane approach to the regional asylum seeker issue.

      http://www.acoss.org.au/images/uploads/Statement%20advertisement%20in%20The%20Australian.pdf

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  34. sharoncello

    The ‘Malaysia Solution” is inhumane. The proposal to send 800 asylum seekers to the refugee camps in Malaysia where they will be treated “better” (ie differently) to others in the camps is just like putting a massive “Kick Me” sign on their back. How is the Australian government going to ensure that these special refugees are being treated as they would be in Australia?

    Remember how much Labor (in opposition) fought against the onshore detention centres until they were closed down in the early 2000s? Many of them have now been reopened by this government.

    It is hypocritical of them to claim the high moral ground in this argument!

    I’ll be honest, I don’t know how to fix this. However, I do think that we could and should accept more UNHCR processed refugees from Malaysian refugee camps.

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  35. Big fella at home

    I hate to spoil a discussion with the facts but in respect of Naru / Manus Island / Pacific Solution…

    * 1637 people detained
    * 1153 were re-settled in Aust or other countries (assume that means they were found to be refugees
    * of the 1153 re-settled.. 705 came to Australia.

    Naru = Christmas Island in a different spot. If you were a refugee in Indonesia and knew if you were to be taken to Naru but still found to be a refugee why would you not get on the boat? It simply means time in Naru.

    Facts are here: http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/media-releases/2008/ce08014.htm

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    • Anonymous

      So now less than half means “pretty much everyone”. Sorry, not on my planet!

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      • Big fella at home

        But you didn’t give a response to the question did you?

        If you were in Indonesia and knew that the result of the Naru policy was that if you were found to be a refugee you would prob get to Australia after a stay in Naru why wouldn’t you get on a boat?

        There is no disincentive not to get on a boat compared with the current policy…. it simply means a stay on Naru.

        It won’t work again now that the results of the last time it was used are known

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        • Anonymous

          It was not just Nauru but a combination of policies including temporary protection visas. It worked then and will work again despite the pathetic attempts by this utterly incompetent government to suggest otherwise.

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          • Big fella at home

            Well that is where you and I differ I think.

            See I don’t have an issue with offshore processing but I don’t think that Naru will work again – given what I have already said.

            I support our total current refugee intake which is about 11-12,000 or so.

            I have real problems with the ‘self selection’ element of most boat arrivals…. e.g. The Tamils who take a boat direct from Sri Lanka I see differently to others who fly to Indonesia and then get a boat to Christmas Island. The reason for this is the work I have done with some Sudanese guys in Melb and hearing what they went through in the camps in Africa. I am not some raging left wing hippie but a late 30′s professional male in Melb – I blame the jesuit education for my point of view!

            However where we differ is the temp protection visas. I thought they were quite evil to be honest… a sentance with no end and did not allow people to move on with their lives even though they had been found to be refugees.

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            • Jackie

              A good Jesuit education is invaluable. Im assuming you are blaming the J’s for your compassionate streak, why didnt it work on TA, he seems to be devoid of the social justice that usually results.
              For the record I have married into a BIG Jesuit family, refugee compassion was just about written into our vows!

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            • Faybian

              I come across a lot of refugees at work and some of the stories they tell of the camps are horrendous. I would far prefer to see them out of there and settled ASAP. I also don’t like TPVs or 457 visas either, for that matter.

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          • Polly

            Just for the record, it is not just the Government that has put forward the arguement that Howard’s old solution won’t work in the current environment.

            Snarky is not a point of view.

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            • Anonymous

              Why would anyone with even half a brain care about anything this government (or anyone who agrees with them) think. They have failed so completely in everything they have done that any opinion they have is frankly worthless.

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            • Polly

              A bit passive aggressive there, Anonymous.

              So the current Government has failed in “everything”, as in “to infinity and beyond”? And any one who can provide evidence to the contrary is to be insulted?

              This is your rational, well-considered point of view? :head in hands, sad shake:

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  36. Sarah

    Tony Abbott will do anything to win power.
    He is using this terrible human tragedy for his own political gain and personal power.
    He sees this as his major political opportunity because the bogans of this country (of which there are many) are DUMB DRUNK AND RACIST…and “want to stop the boats” and they live in marginal seats….
    He is not interested in the lives of these poor refugees, if he was he would negotiate with the Government.
    I dont know how he can sleep at night…..

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    • Anonymous

      What rubbish. He has apolicy that is proven to work. He has offer to support it and the Labor government won’t support it. Why? Political expedience.

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      • Sarah McM

        Rubbish – Scott Morrision made it very clear on 7.30 last night that even if the government adopted the coalition policy *IN ITS ENTIREITY* the coalition STILL wouldn’t vote for it. It is Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison who are doing anything for political expedience. Just like the unknown senior Liberal who told the Australian today that it’s scoring them too many political points, and if people keep drowning, well, “so be it.”

        LEIGH SALES: If Labor were to implement your policy in its entirety, would the Coalition accept equal responsibility for its results?

        SCOTT MORRISSON: Well, as I said today, what you have to have is good policy and people who know how to implement it and who have the character and resolve to back up the measures they’re putting in place. I think this government is now positioned, as I said in my article today, where I think they have very little credibility if any to deliver anything. The problem is not just the measures …

        LEIGH SALES: But you policy, your results, would you stand by it?

        SCOTT MORRISSON: No, what I’m saying, Leigh: the problem now is just not their policies and what they do, it’s them themselves. This government is the pull factor. They are actually the problem. And they have no credibility now out there, I think, to pull virtually any measure off.

        http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3532722.htm

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        • Lulu

          Good god, what a prat he is.

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        • Anonymous

          Totally delusional.

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        • sipper

          Absolutely agree Abbott is a bottom feeder who appeals to the bogans in the swinging seats that actually decide who is the government in this country. The LNP are a bunch of cynical no ideas pollies who scare pensioners via the idiot Herald Sun/Tele and commercial TV. Racists and cynical manipulators-is this who we want to govern this great country???

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          • anon

            Those “bogans”, to whom you refer, are predominantly Labor voters.

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            • Fred

              Really? are you a demographics expert? how do you know this? Or is it just an assumption?

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            • Jackie

              I see these “bogans” as the voters Labor have lost.

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      • Sarah

        I’m sorry – what about this is rubbish??
        Tony Abbott himself has said he would sell his own arse to win the votes of the independents, to get into government … he is a soul- less scum of a human being
        His own party members,on his authority, have said that they will not even approve their own solution for this tragedy…
        he will keep fighting this becuase to him it means votes…
        what part of rubbish is this??

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        • Anonymous

          “Soul-less scum of a human being”…..With such obvious objectivity and balance you have, of course, totally convinced me of your view. Thank you.

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          • Sarah

            Well how would you describe him?? ” a caring, sharing, lovely , moral human being”!!?? I think not….

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  37. anon

    My biggest frustration with this whole tragic story is that someone needs to remind Tony Abbott that he is not the Prime Minister. Julia Gillard is. She is trying to help these people but he wont let her. He has to stop blaming her for the resulting tragedies and compromise a bit here. Its his pig headedness that is causing the brick wall, not the other way around.

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    • fender4eva

      Anon, one word. NAURU !

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    • The wounded bull

      Sorry, but my definition of pigheadedness is labor going 5 years despite hundreds of deaths at sea, and still refusing to admit Howard had it right.

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      • alyssakt

        Because he didn’t

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        • The wounded bull

          Ok, well maybe you would like to tell me how manny died at sea under Howard as compared to labor. Then look me in the eye and tell me it didnt work better than this mess.

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  38. Anonymous

    Anyone up for an ‘anti all sides of politics’ rally in Canberra. Lets clear the place out and start again.

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  39. twomummies

    The other question is why won’t Malaysia sign the convention?

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    • Big fella at home

      Don’t know but Naru only signed it last year…

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      • twomummies

        Interesting…I did hear through Crikey that Naru is becoming politically unstable…if Naru becomes a political basket case where will Abbott send them now?

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        • Big fella at home

          I think it is a political basket case – well certainly a financial one. I remember reading last year that they were not able to keep up the payments on the presidents jet so the finance company turned up and took it back.

          The main reason why Naru (like PNG with Manus Island, Kiriabti and to a lesser extent Malaysia) are happy to speak to us about this is that we are basically bribing them to do so.

          Sad but true…

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          • The wounded bull

            Lol, and labor weren’t doing any bribing with Malaysia were they Big Fella.

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            • Big fella at home

              Yep – that is exactly what they are planning on doing. Bribing Malysia

              The ‘lesser extent’ I refer to is that Malaysia will only be bribed to take 800 people… that seems to be their limit whereas the other places haven’t placed limits that I am aware of.

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            • masd270248

              LIke the open ended bribe Howard paid to Nauru?? Was it $20m???

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    • nonna

      Good point twomummies. Exactly the question which has been rolling around in my head for a while now. Must be a reason?

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  40. Big fella at home

    Just out of interest this is where Christmas Island is located – bloody long way from Australia isn’t it? http://goo.gl/maps/gOH6

    Anyone ever taken the ferry from Melbourne to Tasmania? Its about the same distance as Christmas Island to Indonesia.

    For what its worth I support the Malaysia concept as those who get sent there will NEVER have a chance of being settled in Australia – that is the difference between this idea and Naru / Manus Island – as I mentioned below both of these were simply Christmas Island elsewhere.

    The thing with the Malaysia idea is that you need to have 800 or so volunteers to pay the cost to get a boat to Australia knowing they will be taken to Malaysia with no hope of ever getting a visa to Australia…. now who would want to be in that group? No many I bet….

    Nope, not a redneck… but a pragmatist… fully support our refugee migration program (about 12,000 per year) and have worked with Sudanese groups in Melb – I do have a problem with the self selection though after working with the Sudanese guys who came from the camps in Africa.

    This is hard….

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  41. Anon

    What is the point of the libs negotiating if the solution doesn’t stop the boats. Everyone is all uppity about the time refugees are being kept in custody but the real problem is how to stop them getting on death trap boats in the first place.

    I don’t care if we let them all in, there are more illegals in Australia who arrive via qantas, however, they don’t die at sea when they arrive via qantas.

    We had a system that stopped the boats, now we don’t because idiot ideology got in the way of what made sense. So now we have to deal with the mess left over.

    And this is abbott’s fault how?

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    • twomummies

      It’s both the major parties faults….annoying that both camps want to blame each other. There is no high moral ground when you are literally playing politics with peoples lives.

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      • anon

        Abbott didn’t change the system, The ALP did, and now Abbott is getting hammered because of the actions of the ALP and Greens.

        If the Greens voted with the government in the senate the Liberals wouldn’t be needed, yet everyone is remarkably silent on the destructive attitude of the Greens.

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  42. fender4eva

    Oh, please. We had a solution. It was Nauru. Labor screwed up big time by not using it, and doing what seemed like a good vote getter, at the time. Now they are too gutless to admit they got it wrong. Go, Julia. I’m sure you’ll get it sooner or later…….

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    • Big fella at home

      But pretty much everyone who went to Naru wound up here anyway after being found to be refugees….. Naru = Christmas Island elsewhere.

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      • fender4eva

        Maybe big fella, but they were properly screened and they were found to be genuine refugees, unlike our famous trolley pushing Capt Amed, or whatever his name was…..

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        • twomummies

          ‘properly screened’ you say that as if anyone who arrives at Christmas Island isn’t. All refugee applicants are ‘properly screened’ no matter where and how they arrive in Australia.

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          • fender4eva

            So how did the Trolley Pusher slip through the net ?

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            • Big fella at home

              Don’t know how that happened… ask the public servants & the spies! They have it under control…. bit like when the Federal Police locked up that Indian doctor who had done nothing… when the immigration department locked up the Australian girl who had a mental breakdown and a german accent as that is where she was born. Speaking German came in quite handy when she worked as a hostie for Qantas but didn’t help with the immigration department who locked her up for a year or so as she couldn’t prove she had a visa….. then there is the lady from the philippines (also Aust citizen) who had a car accident in northern NSW (she lived in Qld) and was badly hurt including brain injury – she was deported to Philippines and left with a church based charity at Manilla airport.

              Yep – those public servants and their security checks, they never get it wrong do they?

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        • Rachel

          “screened”? 96% of all refugees that arrive by boat are found to be genuine refugees in the end… Unlike those that come by other means.

          Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the Naru concept just delaying the inevitable?

          Ton Abbott should remember that he is NOT PM and give it a go … After all if the idea fails -he can just say ” I told you so”

          Do something!

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  43. JS

    He doesn’t need to negotiate, he’s in opposition. Why can’t the Government govern and come up with another solution that everyone will support.

    Where are the Greens in all of this? Why isn’t the headline “The Greens won’t negotiate?”.

    It didn’t take long for the the Labor bias to come out.

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    • jamilarizvi

      Hi JS.

      I agree that there needs to be some efforts by all political parties to negotiate – and that includes the Greens. The reason why the Coalition are my focus is because they (like the Government) support offshore processing, yet they won’t support a Bill, which will allow for offshore processing.

      I recognise that they disagree with the Malaysia solution and have a preference for Nauru. But if in Government themselves the Coalition would ALSO need this very legislation – to enable them to enact their policy.

      Personally, I’m still uncomfortable with offshore processing – this is an area of policy where I have real issues with the Government’s position. But my commentary is around the political impasse and how I feel there needs to be some bipartisanship to bring it to an end.

      Jamila

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      • Mrs M

        But Jamila, there was never bipartisanship when Howard had his policy of Nauru – so why do you think the Libs will provide that now? Julia and Tony are like two toddlers with each having the same toy – and they both think theirs is better, but really they are exactly the same. We could ask why doesn’t Julia just go with Nauru? (as per my previous question – and I am harping on this now – what is the nuts and bolts difference between Nauru and Malaysia??)

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        • Big fella at home

          Sorry Mrs M – there was bipartisanship on this when Howard was PM and Kim Beazley opposition leader

          About 4 weeks after 9/11 when the Tampa issue was underway Labor voted for the legislation that allowed the Pacific Solution. Not sure if the actual numbers in the vote were critical though – perhaps not in the lower house but reckon they would have been needed in the Senate as I can’t imagine the democrats of Greens would have supported it at the time.

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        • jamilarizvi

          Thanks Mrs M. I agree – both sides drive me a little mental on this issue. I think politics is in the way of either side doing what they actually want to. I’ve taken issue with Abbott here because the Government has (finally!) given some ground – which is what everyone needs to do, if we’re going to get anywhere.

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    • Big fella at home

      Tony Abbot – like all elected members – is a member of parliament first and foremost and is elected to act in response to situations. As you well know JS the situation is that WE THE VOTERS elected a hung parliament!

      The result is that the government – which Abbot admitted he would ‘sell his arse to form’ (http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-day-abbott-bared-his-soul-20110827-1jfgv.html) is a close run thing. To simply say the government should just govern is exactly what they are doing by looking to negotiate with Abbot and the others.

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  44. georgiepie

    OH MY GOD. I just can’t believe this is still an issue. People who come here on a tiny little boat are DESPERATE. They are fleeing persecution. Just process them here! What is the population’s fear around ‘boat people’? We are hardly being swamped, and even if we were does it matter? We are giving people a home who cannot return to their own home, and who will be grateful for a new chance and start. We are bound by law to help refugees, and so we should do.

    Let’s take a moment, and think about how Abbott would feel if Australia was invaded by a neighbouring country. (I love this game, shoe on the other foot much). A country which persecuted him, oppressed him and hurt his family.Say he decided to flee to make a better life for himself – by boat, because he had no way of flying out of the country, lack of funds, no way of getting a passport etc. Then when he got to this country – let’s say NZ – they sent him off to a small neighbouring country to be ‘processed’, kept him there for months and months behind bars like a criminal, and possibly even sent him back to the country where the oppressive regime would immediately find him and kill him.

    WHY are some Australians against granting desperate people a second chance?! UGH makes me furious.

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    • The wounded bull

      Actually, what we are against is hundreds dying at sea. This will be thousands without any deterant. Simple really.

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      • georgiepie

        Can you explain that to me? Is it because the seas around Australia are more treacherous? (not a science kid haha) Why would onshore processing result in more deaths?

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        • Mrs M

          Further to my questions – as I have the same question which I have related back to the Greens’ position – if there is onshore processing, people will still get on boats and risk their lives. It won’t stop them. The ideal could be onshore processing, with a concurrent program to break the people smugglers’ – but I don’t think either main party is going to OK onshore processing.

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        • Anonymous

          It is a deterrent to making the dangerous trip in the first place. If asylum seekers think they will pay the criminal people smugglers only to get to australia then be sent offshore again, they think twice about making the trip. This saves lives.

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      • AliC

        I dont see how sending people to malaysia where they are not covered by certain human rights treaties is a proper solution – risking their lives or not

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    • Guest

      I’m afraid your analogy fails somewhat. In the vast majority of cases the asylym seekers have passports which they use to travel to Indonesia before taking the boat journey to Australia. These passports are then lost at sea or left in Indonesia because it makes it much harder to check their claims if there is no conclusive proof of identity.

      I don’t know (and neither do you) how many people are genuine refugees and how many are attracted by coming to a country that will give you more in social security than 90% of the world’s population can hope to earn and the ability to bring your family out once you’ve got citizenship. But one way of finding out is to hand out temporary protection visas rathert than citizenship to anyone who comes by boat which takes both those things off the table while still (as we quite properly are obliged to under international law) protecting those fleeing persecution. We know from the last time it was tried that it cut the numbers down to virtually zero. Now you might say that I am being cruel to some people who will be denied asylum (although under a TPV we don’t send them home until conditions are safe) but we need to set that against those who we know will die in unsafe vessels because we currently have an open door policy to anyone who can get here by boat. I suspect the latter number is much larger than the former.

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      • georgiepie

        You make a good point Guest! We don’t know. But I would say (and this is just my opinion) that the people we should be worried about, the dodgy ones, wouldn’t be coming by boat – I think it’s the ones that are truly desperate, that would risk their lives to live here. I can’t see a corrupt crim coming here on a overcrowded leaky boat. Again, just my opinion, I could be completely wrong.

        I’m not asking for citizenship certificates to be thrown about, I just want them to have the ability to try and integrate into the community rather than spend months and months in detention.

        I think that what my argument boils down to is that they shouldn’t be treated like criminals when they’re not!

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        • anon

          How come most of the ” truly desperate” boat people,pay thousands of dollars , throw their identification documents away AND leave their wives and children in the country that they’re fleeing?

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          • georgiepie

            those thousands of dollars come from selling their belongings, where is your proof that their IDs are thrown away (some may be, many are taken by the smugglers – I know this, I went to school with someone who was a ‘boat person’), and they leave their wives and children because they can’t afford to take them all, are scared to take them on a dangerous boat, and are going ahead to set up a new life for them all – it is not an easy decision anon! you’re talking about it like they were happy to hop on a dud boat and sail halfway across the world,

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    • bebe

      hope you’re just as passionate about housing all the homeless children here . They’re desperate for somewhere to live and for someone to give a damn. We should all be ashamed about that .

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      • georgiepie

        of course I am, just because I’m passionate about international issues doesn’t mean I’m not passionate about domestic ones. But this article is about asylum seekers/refugees, not homeless children.

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  45. The wounded bull

    Tony abbott said just this morning that there had been no attempt by goverment to contact him and discuss the issue. Why not ask your headline question of the greens, seeing they are in a coalition of sorts with the government.

    Funny, for years MM was scathing of the off shore solution. Now that hundreds more have died and even labor acknowedge it as the best deterant to save lives, you seem to now point the finger at the lnp, asking why they wont support labor.

    Hello, we had a solution that saved hundreds of lives at sea. Labor pulled it apart. Maybe start your finger pointing there.

    I never could understand how those that opposed the solution grandstand their moral high ground, when doing it their way leads to countless deaths. Some moral high ground alright.

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    • H.J.

      I’m with you Wounded Bull. I nearly fell of my chair when I saw this article.

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    • Anonymous

      What??? Then why are the news reports this afternoon saying that Tony Abbott has rejected Government offers of more talks on asylum seekers?

      Gillard offered to talk and Abbott said there’s no point.

      The Greens are the ones calling for a multi-party committee to resolve the deadlock. They don’t want offshore processing because it is not legal. They are calling for talks with experts on asylum seekers, those who work on the ground every day, to come up with a humane workable solution.

      And your assertions about the success of Howard’s immigration policies are simplistic and inaccurate. They didn’t stop the boats coming, they turned them back. The official record was rigged, as it didn’t count the number of boats that were intercepted or turned back. The UNHCR estimates that at least 1600 people attempted to come to Australia by boat after the beginning of the Pacific Solution. There were a number of boats that attempted to get here, were turned back and sank.

      And there is strong agreement by experts that the number of boats coming here are much more strongly influenced by international factors than Australian policy. The UNHCR says: “Pragmatically no empirical evidence is available to give credence to the assumption that the threat of being detained, deters irregular migration”.

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  46. Mrs M

    Can someone explain to me – just facts please – why Malaysia is preferred by the Government to Nauru? I just feel like neither solution is that much different – both are offshore processing – so I am still confused as to why the Government closed down Nauru, if what they were offering with Malaysia is same-same. I read articles but most are full of extreme views from both sides of the debate – just like some facts please :)
    Second question – if the Greens want onshore processing, how does that stop people risking their lives in un-seaworthy boats? What are the Greens’ solutions around breaking the business of people smuggling?
    I feel lucky every day that I was born in this country and have never had to contemplate and do, what so many of these people have had to.

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    • Mrs M

      and sorry in case I was not clear – I understand the ‘deal’ done with the Malaysian Government, but am still not clear on the actual differences between offshore processing (the nuts and bolts of it) between Malaysia and Nauru.

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      • Big fella at home

        Hi Mrs M – have a look at what I said above.

        In short, pretty much everyone who went to Naru, Manus Island and Kirabati wound up in Australia – that’s what I mean when I say these places were Christmas Island elsewhere. A good portion of the guys who wound up in the Tampa eventually arrived in Australia but most of them went to NZ.

        The deal with Malaysia is that any boat people sent there will be managed so to speak (apologies for terrible turn of phrase) by Malaysia and they will never have the opportunity to get to Australia. This applies for about 800 or so people. The idea is that who is going to pay to get on a boat to travel from Indonesia or Sri Lanka to Australia knowing that they will be sent to Malaysia and not have the opportunity to get an Australian visa.

        With Naru etc…. well they guys get picked up at or close to Christmas Island…. then sent to Naru for processing… given that about 90% of the people getting on boats are found to be refugees then what happens then? They are sent here!

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        • Anonymous

          Just not true. Less than half sent to Nauru ended up here and the boats stopped. Negotiation over. Now all we need in JG and Labor to swallow their pride, admit the Howard solution was correct and reinstate it. Unfortunately this is more difficult that allowing the deaths to continue.

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        • LM

          If your assertion that most who wound up on Christmas Island were allowed to stay is correct (and would appreciate the figures if you know them), the indisputable fact is that the boats slowed and arrivals were far less under the Howard Government. This Labor Government stuffed up big time by unravelling that system and now they (along with their partners in crime, The Greens) need to take responsibility for this mess, show some leadership and make the required adjustments.

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          • Lulu

            “arrivals were far less under the Howard Government”

            International conditions were different as well, i.e. the ‘push’ factors. There was a big increase in the boat arrivals in Italy, even when there hadn’t been a change in government or policies.

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            • The wounded bull

              You are living in complete lala (or lulu) land if you think international factors explain why under howard we had as many arrivals in years than we have had in the last month alone. Get real.

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          • Big fella at home

            See my post above…

            My issue with Naru is that it worked at the time BUT as time moved on 705 people out of 1153 who were found to be refugees there EVENTUALLY wound up in Australia.

            Now…. given this is well known I just don’t think it work again. The result of the policy is a stay in Naru before coming to Australia.

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            • Mrs M

              Thanks Big fella at home for taking the time to respond. Need to digest all of this with a glass of wine in hand!

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