In episode 16 of Mamamia on Sky News we’re talking men, sex and pornography. Our regular panelist Sam de Brito sits down to chat with two of Australia’s most outspoken women about their VERY opposing views on porn. Bettina Arndt is a sex therapist and author of The Sex Diaries and What Men Want – In Bed, and Melinda Tankard Reist is a social commentator and author of Big Porn Inc.
Sam asks the questions many men – and women – are too afraid to ask. And the answers may surprise you.
The full episode is available here (and the discussion about men, sex and pornography starts at around the 15 min 20 sec mark):
Now let’s meet the panel:
Lachlan Harris, Lisa Hensley, Sam de Brito and Dee Madigan
Dee Madigan: Social commentator and advertising guru, regular panelist on The Gruen Transfer.
Lachlan Harris: Political and media commentator and former Senior Press Secretary to Prime Minister of Australia Kevin Rudd MP from 2006 to 2010.
Lisa Hensley: Actress, writer and broadcaster. Lisa’s been one of our regular guests on the show this year.
Sam de Brito: Author of Hello Darkness and The Lost Boys and columnist with Fairfax, he’s part of the furniture at Mamamia on Sky. Tonight he brings us interviews sex therapist Bettina Ardnt and social commentator Melina Tankard Reist.
Enjoy the show! And tell us what you think…
(And if you love Mia’s new phone as much as we do, it comes in all kinds of bright colours which you can buy here.)
Comments
41 Comments so far
loading...
I have very little time for Bettina – her views are stuck in the lates 70s- mid 80. Catch up: women love sex too! Like me for instance. I would have to ask my ex for sex and I would have to work SO hard to raise the topic in a way that was not nagging him, just to get it once per week. Pornography was the reason he was not interested in me and it ruined our relationship.Bettina needs to read some Nikki Gemmell.
loading...
damn! i really want to watch this!
have to wait til home and wonder what i’m missing out on now…
http://www.xxxmissvxxx.wordpress.com
loading...
I wonder if Bettina has seen 2 Girls, One Cup. Not that I would recommend it to her (or anyone else for that matter). Disgusting!
loading...
Bad men do what good men dream. It’s normal for men to have Unsavory masturbatory fantasies (rape and sex with girls under age so on) but this does not mean they’ll carry them out.
Porn works by classical conditioning. Look at porn ejaculate that feels good do it again. This is very very normal. The cross over from fantasy to impacting in real life is complex it’s important for men to keep Marie story fantasies as wide and varied as possible or else they may have increasing difficulty getting aroused by anything other than their fantasy.
Finally, if someone is going to act out in a deviant sexual way they’ll do that weather porn exists or not. Porn does not create deviant thoughts, and if men don’t have them then they won’t use those tabs on the porn sites.
Women let men enjoy porn.
Men make sure you keep your porn use wide and varied and don’t just masturbate to the one type of woman (unless it’s your wife of course).
loading...
Love Dee’s dress! Can anyone tell me what brand it is?
loading...
It’s this season’s Sportscraft.
loading...
Thanks Dee!
loading...
Love Dee’s glasses – can anyone tell me what brand they are?
loading...
dolce and gabbana
loading...
I just read the most interesting interview between Gail Dines (anti-porn campaigner) and Anna Arrowsmith (UK’s first porn film director).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/05/conversation-gail-dines-anna-arrowsmith?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487
I think Gail has some really important messages (very similar to Melinda) but I get really annoyed that she finds it difficult to see the issue from somebody else’s point of view. She just dismisses them straight up. She needs to ‘seek first to understand, then be understood’. What could have been a really good interview/discussion is basically Gail forcing her opinion on Anna in the end.
But then on the other hand, I also like that Gail continues to stick to her guns too. So a bit conflicted over it.
I like that discussions like this article and the episode of MM Sky; it always brings with more information and education.
loading...
One more must read article. This article sums up my other comments below and why I have come to the conclusion that it is a public health issue that needs both awareness and education.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography
loading...
I remember her on Q and A. She was completely over the top and offensive. Awful.
loading...
I remember Gail well! She basically told a young woman in the audience that she had wasted all the effort feminists had put in to feminism – from the mildest of questions!
She failed simply because she puts people off.
Looking forward to watching this show when not at work.
loading...
No one said that Bipolar was easy???? I never heard it. It is hard and ruins people lives but schizophrenia of the worst variety steals your personality and potential and your reality. it means you have little to offer i. Relationships, you can’t work as your two confused about reality, your dribbling from the drugs and you don’t relate well to other people. many can’t live a normal functional life at all. there is not periods of time of relative normality. I have two schizophrenic brothers and they are never well, have no relationships and hardly any friends. They do and say odd things and they scare people. partly as the drugs make them blank- they don’t have the facial expressions to display emotion like everyone else. thinking Hitler is chasing you is really crap on a daily basis and suspecting every e of video taping you to steal your mind it kind of a bummer.
I think Dee just pointed out that it is the 3rd biggest cause of disability in Australia no way detracted from your problems- nearly high lighted the need for better services for all mentally I’ll people
loading...
I liked hearing about schizophrenia in the media. It needs more attention and more resources.
I have two brothers with schizophrenia and it really is a bad hand to get in life. they do not have the care or assisted living required to service these people and it is wrong.
Through work I am dealing with someone who is schizophrenic who cannot live I. The community so he has been in a rehab ward( not rehab for mental illness but old people with broken hips etc)he is in his 30′s.
They tried to put him in assisted care( but there is no one on Week ends or after hours) and as he is on The very unwell end of the spectrum. He didn’t cope and now no one wants him. It is plainly ridiculous that we do not have appropriate care and facilities for mentally ill people. We have gone from locked everyone up to leaving vulnerable and very unwell people unassisted with poor support and crappy doctors( getting decent psych doctors in the country is difficult and they never stay) .
We need 24 Hr assisted living( think uni dorms- own rooms, meals and entertainment provided and someone to look out for you.) And they need cleaners. people doped out on clozapine don’t have the energy to clean.
It really broke my heart that someone my age is shoved in a ward of old people in hospital for 18 months taking up a bed because he has no where suitable to go.
loading...
This was the first time I had watched the show and I really enjoyed it. I read the site all the time but usually can’t be bothered to load the show, however I was drawn by the porn issue as I feel strongly about it.
Melinda offends me and I feel she completely off base. I feel she shames desires that can be natural and healthy when done right. Her disgust of the sexual practices depicted is clear. Melinda, some people in happy healthy loving relationships have rough, dirty, degrading, kinky or extreme sex and they often watch hard core porn for inspiration and enjoyment. A woman enjoying sexual submission is almost like a dirty secret as women are conditioned by women magazines now to be ‘empowered’ women, everywhere and that means never submit to a man. Yet so many of many girlfriends after a few drinks will confess they wish a man would just throw them down and take them. Same shaming goes on for men who want to submit to a woman, but Melinda seems more concerned with women. With Melinda I get the feeling she just cannot understand how people can do such things so OMG how awful! It must be stopped!
The problem is not the acts or the desire. The problem is how they are carried out. Instead of telling people ‘you are sick’ acknowledge some people have those desires then use relationship education to teach them how to do it in a safe, sane and consensual way and to look for someone that matches their sexuality. Teach boys the girl in the video may be treated as worthless, but she’s a person and deserving of respect and hey maybe this is part of her sexuality. Happy healthy normal people can have hardcore sex. The sex isn’t the problem, the attitude is and relationship education in schools can correct that.
You can’t stop porn. Is a physical impossibility, as it was discussed on the show. All a kid needs is a phone, so why not teach them to be a respectful sexual partner along with that?
My only concern with porn is that the porn also needs to be healthy. I believe porn is here to stay and in time as people accept it and it becomes even more mainstream there will be a move towards ethical porn, from both a policing level and a consumer demand level. I want to watch hard-core porn, but I want to watch it with consenting healthy actors in a legal way.
Consenting adults will do legal things in bed and that’s their right, people like Melinda need to accept it and shift the focus to relationship education instead of shaming people and making people less likely to talk openly for fear of judgement.
loading...
This is a story from my own life, so take it with a grain of salt.
Im at an age whereby my girlfriends talk very candidly about their sex lives. It may shock men to hear this but we do talk about quite specific details. Not all the time but once in a blue moon we will have a really open conversation about everything to do with sex.
I found out recently that one of my close girlfriends enjoys rough, dirty, degrading, hard core porn like sex. (Like so dirty Im surprised she never got some sort of serious infection in her mouth). She enjoyed the whole kit and caboodle, you name it. Once I got over my initial shock I was really, really fascinated by what drew her to it. There was no judgement or shaming from me, just pure curiosity. She answered all my questions quite openly.
Anyway, my point is that at the time i thought she was empowered and i thought good on her for doing what she wants because it was consensual and obviously enjoyable for her. Actually, I even questioned for a second why i was so prudish and didn’t want to do some of the extreme things she did. I was glad I had a friend that was doing it so that i could pick her brain about it.
After she broke up with her boyfriend the whole picture surfaced. Amongst other things i found out, she had grown up in a very dysfunctional family life, whereby domestic violence was rife her whole childhood. Her dad beat her mum so severely that her mum is now a shell of a person who can barely function. Then I found out her ex partner (that she enjoyed the rough sex with) once bashed her quite badly and he totally controlled the relationship.
On the outside she seems to be a very confident woman but inside she is desperate for the approval of a man and feels her self-worth is tied to this. When ever a really nice guy shows her attention she doesn’t feel worthy enough of him. She has confessed this to me a few times when she is really low about being single. Not many people know this about her because she is is so shamed about it and finds it very difficult to trust others. She knows it is not right but has no idea what to do about it. I always urge her to get some help and professional support and I know that one day she will, when she is ready.
Anyway, I have other girlfriends that grew up in much more healthy, functional family situations where they were told they can be and do anything they want in this life because women are equal – blah, blah, blah. They are very successful in their careers, etc. They see porn as degrading towards women and want no part of it and they are incensed when they “catch” their partner watching it. BUT as I have also found, these are the same women that will say after a few wines I wish my partner would just throw me down and have his way with me. It’s a like a fantasy for them because it so different to their normal respectful experience of their relationship. What they mean of course is maybe a bit of rough pashing and hard groping, a bit of kinky power play, toys, oral and that is it. That is as rough as it gets for them ever.
(Now lets look at the hard-core porn industry definition of normal – rimming, tea bagging, double and triple penetration, ATM, women licking toilet bowl seats, deep throating a woman whilst she is being choked with a dog collar, several mens semen squirted directly in to women’s eyes, and the list goes on and on)
These girlfriends have absolutely no f***king idea about half the stuff that goes on in hard core porn and nor would I ever want them to. The only reason I know so much about it is because I follow Gail Dines and Melinda’s work. I have followed Sasha Grey’s career with objective interest and I have watched many documentaries about the industry.
One thing I have to definitely agree with you Guest is that we need more ethical porn, from both a policing level and a consumer demand level because it it here to stay. It’s an industry that needs regulation and that is what Melinda advocates.
I dont agree however that what goes on in a bedroom can be completely separate to what happens within a relationship. A lot of men and women still harbour this virgin/slut complex that dictates what level of respect they afford a woman. (In fact the hard core porn industry actually exploits this whore/virgin conundrum, but that is a discussion for another time)
It is going to be a difficult task to get boys and men to be able to separate what happens to a woman that is treated as worthless in a hard core porn film from what respect level he would give her in real life. I hope that it can happen though. I do believe education and information is the key.
loading...
“The problem is not the acts or the desire. The problem is how they are carried out. ”
Hmm. If someone said they desired children sexually, but they weren’t acting on it! promise! – I wouldn’t think that was just peachy.
loading...
I watched the show and unless I missed it no one explicitly said ‘bipolar is easy’? Did I miss it? It was mentioned that it was heard of that people would say ‘I’m bipolar’, as opposed to saying ‘I’m schizophrenic’. I don’t think they were implying it’s easy, unless I missed that line.
I’m bipolar and I know it’s certainly not easy, would be offended if some did say that. But it is certainly more socially acceptable than schizophrenic. But on the other hand I feel it still has stigma and is nowhere near as acceptable as depression, or anxiety or PND.
loading...
Pornography and Sex are very different propositions. I’m extremely disappointed that this vital delineation wasn’t made prior to showing both interviews on MM Sky. Pornography is about profit and capitalism. Sex is about what happens privately between two or more consenting adults that are not getting paid. Porn is a product. Sex is not.
Indulge me for a second because I have read both Melinda’s and Bettina’s blogs, articles, books, writings etc. Both women have very important messages that every adult and parent needs to hear. This is not an either/or scenario. (Incidentally, Sam’s message needs to be broadcasted too – the benefits of orgasm on the human body and mind are incredible and severely under-rated)
After reading her stuff extensively, I believe that Bettina is on to something. She is an expert in the field of heterosexual relations between men and women. A lot of women in long term (heterosexual) relationships withhold sex from their partner as a way to control a relationship. Some women are not that interested in understanding what motivates men or meeting his sexual needs. Anecdotally, I can back up Bettina’s research. I know many married men that get sex sporadically or not at all from their wives and for some reason, they just put up with it. I know many women who have just given up on sex within their long term relationship and just don’t care about what impact this may be having on their significant other. Men often need sex in order to feel a closeness in a relationship. Women often want the closeness to come first before she will want sex. All that Bettina is doing is highlighting this. But Bettina is definitely no expert in the business that is the porn industry and I am really annoyed that people might watch her interview and believe that she is just because she knows about relationships. To me she came across as a bit old and really out of touch as to what is happening on the internet.
And then you have Melinda, who is an expert in her field also. I have been following her blog for some time. She inhabits a completely different world to Bettina’s cozy world of relationships, sex and love. Melinda studies the multi-billion dollar global “business” that is the porn industry. She has been documenting the escalation of the sheer brutal violence, misogyny, misandry in the hard core porn films for quite some time now. Melinda is trying to highlight what a profound impact watching this shocking and disturbing footage is doing to our society. She often makes the point that the more hard core the porn gets, the “trickle down” effect is that it becomes more and more societally acceptable for a store (for example) to sell a t-shirt for a baby that says “All Daddy wanted was a blow job”. You get the idea.
Watching hard-corn porn shapes and possibly dictates what a young persons view will be on sexuality, body image, relationships, and what sexual desire means before they have even had the chance to explore the innocence of first love and explore the physical sensation of it for themselves. Even if you just strip it down to the bare basic level that is hard core porn – there is absolutely no tenderness, kissing, cuddling, gentleness or love in it. At all. Ever. Do parents actually want their boys watching this ever? Because (sorry) you are a ignorant fool and have your head in the sand if you believe they are not watching or have not seen something shocking, even just once. Boys are curious creatures that will go to any length to discover this stuff. Just as Sam mentioned about his experience, it has been proven that the consumption of it absolutely alters men’s tastes when it comes to what they will come to expect or desire in the bedroom.
I see hard core porn as exactly like smoking. Like smoking, there is absolutely no upside to consuming it in the long term whatsoever for males and females. Yeah, it might provide a “high” in the short term to men and some women but it is so incredibly damaging to relationships and society as a whole. I totally and utterly agree with Melinda that it is a public health hazard that we have yet to see the full consequences of. Young people are growing up in a world where porn masquerading as sex is a well and truly a commodified product that can be sold and bought and it is uncool to see it any other way. Like smoking once was, porn is now seen as acceptable and harmless.
I want to finish by saying that I believe that in a round about way that both Bettina and Melinda actually want a similar outcome. And that is for humans to have a healthy view of sex and sexuality and be free from outside expectations or pressures placed upon them by society. They both want sex to be viewed as the enjoyable experience that it is. They both want more equality within relationships.
And I know this for sure, the men making a fortune out of hard-core porn are quite happy about the fact that we all (especially women) have yet woken up to the insidiousness of what they are doing. Because in the meantime, they are making billions of dollars and don’t give a shit about the ramifications of their actions on our communities, families and relationships or general health. Because business is just business to them. Just like the massive tobacco companies think about smoking. It’s a huge money spinner and they don’t care if people get hurt or damaged by consuming their product.
loading...
thank you for writing this. this is a message that needs to be heard.
loading...
I would not be so sure it is just men making a fortune from this industry. There are many many women, both in front of the camera and behind. Just saying, Just Saying.
loading...
Hey WB, actually I’m not really sure of the exact stats re who is collecting the super profits generated by the industry. If you have any examples of women financially doing well out of it (that are at the top, i.e running the companies) then I would really like to read them.
Porn is a business and its number one goal is to make money at all costs. My hunch is that it follows the exact same trends as other businesses/corporations in the western world like for example – 12 of the Fortune 500 companies (2.4%) are run by women and other such well known trends.
Gail Dines and Melinda who have researched this extensively also believe that is it overwhelmingly predominately men who are profiting from the industry.
Being a performer in the industry for a woman is a lot the modelling industry. Girls have to get in young make their money before they are too old to be considered desirable anymore. Sasha Grey has retired from the industry and she is only 23. So she made a bit of money but at what cost? She worked incredibly hard and she did hundred of films that were incredibly physically demanding to her body. She is trying to break in to main stream with some success but might have to carry around the stigma of her previous life forever.
loading...
I’m pretty certain from what I have read that is totally inaccurate.
loading...
I have not watched the show but you have got me curious, I can’t believe someone would say that!! I do not suffer bi polar but know from working in the ‘industry’ that it is certainly not the easy mental illness to have. Bi polar is an extremely complex illness and mood stabilizers and antipsychotic medications are no picnic! Lithium can be a great help but can cause renal failure amongst other things.
As I say I did not see the show, but I am sorry that you felt insulted by someones ill informed view point.
loading...
I misread ‘Here’s the promo’ as ‘Here’s the porno’!
loading...
ha ha
loading...
I think Sam is my husband’s new favourite! I had just finished saying how I thought Sam was completely upfront and open about everything when he heard Sam’s opinion on masturbating… That sealed the deal!
Another great show!
loading...
I cannot wait for tonight’s show to start. Dee and Lisa are two of my favourite panelists … plus I’m really looking forward to Sam’s interviews with Bettina and Melinda. Both such strong women with strong views … should be interesting.
loading...
Bec, what on earth is going on with episode 15? I can’t find it on the website anywhere, and I found the link on Facebook, and it opened up to mamamia videos on facebook, but there was no episode 15!!
loading...
Try here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oel0YGivZjk
Thanks whippersnapper
loading...
Cool! I love Melinda Tankard Reist!
Should be an interesting show
loading...
Do I have to have access to Sky News to watch this, or can I view online?
loading...
The show in on Sky tonight, but we’ll upload the full episode to the site sometime in the next couple of days. Watch this space.
loading...
Bettina Arndt? Er, no.
loading...
Er why, because she is a woman that can see a mans perspective on many things and dares argue issues from a mans perspective. Cue the misogynist lines now I suppose.
I actually think she makes a refreshing change, and often sees things very astutely from a mans point of view, which is rare from female commentators as a rule (as it is rare to find men that see things from a womens perspective). I find much of what she says rings true to me.
And it is healthy to have both sides of any argument.
loading...
I agree with you Lulu, I remember reading an article on her in the Women’s Weekly a few months ago and thinking where does she get this stuff?? I think sexuality/love/people are a lot more complicated than the theories she puts forward…
loading...
The article was by David Leser, the Australian journo/writer with an international reputation for writing astutely about people. He was one male who questioned the validity and depth of BA’s “understanding” of men.
loading...
listened to a presentation she gave
her views come from the research she does
with real people of both genders
loading...
Have yet to find any validated research done by BA. If anyone knows of any, please pass some links to me.
She selected the diarists herself for The Sex Diaries which contravenes the gold standard of research in minimising bias …. see Alan Close’s book review of What Men Want – In Bed, SMH, 17/10/2010.
Its her opinion … not fact and not research.
loading...
Abigail Bray (co-author/editor of that book) was my women’s studies lecturer when I studied it for a few years at UWA!