Anyone keen for a bit of a perv?
by NATALIA JASTRZAB
This is the story of two girls, one pub and a whole lot of harassment.
More specifically, it’s the story of how my best friend and I went to an inner-city Melbourne pub to watch a band with a ridiculously good-looking lead singer and have a bit of a boogie.
It’s the story of how we ended up storming out an hour later because of the physical and verbal abuse we were copping.
Let me elaborate. I’ll set the scene for you. Two twenty-one year old girls, wearing flat shoes and I can’t remember what else, standing on the dance floor of the pub, getting excited every time a new song started playing and it turned out to be better than the last one.
There was not much of a female population in the pub, so we were getting a lot of – unwanted – attention. At first, it was just the casual grope as someone walked past. My bottom was the preferred groping target. Lovely.
Then guys started deciding that it wasn’t okay for me to dance with my friend anymore. That I needed to dance with them instead. Cue The Grab, where they snatch you away or snake an arm around you so that you’re out of your circle and into their arms.
No thank you. I’m having a great time where I am. I have a boyfriend. He’s not here right now, but he’s big and strong and could totally fight you. But the excuses weren’t good enough.
It got to the stage where some guy was so offended by my brush-offs that he decided the best way to get my attention was to continually launch himself at me – with force – until I turned around and started talking to him.
This could have been me and my friend – if we hadn’t been so busy trying to get people to back off
I turned around after he’d purposely run into me for the seventh time in less than a minute. I shoved him away and asked him to mind his personal space. The music was loud, so I might have mimed out a “no-trespassing area” around me.
He called me a bitch. I could still hear that over the music.
There was a security guard watching the entire thing. He didn’t care.
There were, however, two guys who did care. They stood next to us, acting like pseudo-boyfriends, and whenever someone approached me, I pointed to the tallest of the two and mouthed “boyfriend”!
As nice as those boys were, our night was already spoiled. We hugged them and headed home, disappointed with how the evening had turned out.
The most disappointment came afterwards, when I was recounting the evening to two male friends.
Friend One: “What did you expect? You were in a pub.”
Friend Two: “What did you expect? You were in [insert apparently dodgy Melbourne suburb here].”
Oh, of course! I shouldn’t have yelled at that boy who called me a bitch after I didn’t appreciate his best elbowing-in-back-efforts. I should have said, “I’m sorry – I forgot I’m in a pub. Do you want me to stand a bit closer so your aim can be better? That way, you can jab me in the eyes!”
I shouldn’t have been offended by the security guard ignoring me. I should have said, “I’m sorry – I forgot I’m in a postcode where it’s totally okay for everyone to grope me. My bad!”
Wait. Back up.
The fact that I was in a pub doesn’t automatically cancel out my right to enjoy my evening without being harassed. The fact that I was in a particular suburb is also completely irrelevant.
Gary Johnston
But it seems my personal views are not in line with those of Gary Johnston. Gary is head of the Bulldogs’ major sponsor, Jaycar Electronics. He went on radio 2GB on Wednesday to speak about the inappropriate comments directed at channel 9 reporter, Jayne Azzopardi, by unnamed players during the team’s Mad Monday celebrations.
Gary defended the player’s right to privacy, saying: “If a woman walks into some bars in Sydney, she will be ogled. She will be treated as an object and that’s the way it is. She doesn’t have to walk into those bars.”
Top stuff. Let’s have a golf clap for Gary.
Model and boxer Lauryn Eagle has now made a statement supporting him, telling Triple M radio: ”It’s the truth and you can’t hide from it, whether you like it or not, women expect it, it’s an expected situation.”
Lauryn Eagle
“You walk into a bar, men look at you, they stare at you, that’s just the way it is and that’s the truth.
“What they didn’t record was he did apologise…the comments were definitely not appropriate, but the reality is, looking and ogling, definitely (happens).”
So – in conclusion – women in bars and pubs will be treated like objects and should expect to be ogled. And – in my situation anyway – we all know what the ogling leads to. Touching. Being hassled. And – let’s call it what it is – being harassed.
That will happen regularly. And that’s cool.
Did I get that right, Lauryn and Gary?
Over to you all. What did you think of the comments made by Lauryn and Gary? Have you been treated badly in a pub or bar? Do you think there’s some kind of justification behind the behaviour?
Comments
152 Comments so far
I will never ever ever ever forget, when I was 17, I was at an under 18′s dance party.. There were boys there that were definitely over 18. This MAN grabbed both my breasts and proceeded to squeeze them, we were caught in the middle of hundreds of people I couldn’t move away fast enough.. But it gave me a chance to knee the fucker in the balls.. With all my strength!
No, I didn’t go to a dance party to “pick up” or get my breasts squeezed I went to dance with my friends and sister, on the same night my sisters coca-cola got spiked. I don’t think it’s where we were or how we were dressed or anything we were doing that caused this shit to happen to us. It’s the fuckers that did it! Men/women perve pricks need to learn to keep it in their pants. Or keep their hands to themselves, or their drugs. It makes me sick that people can actually say its because someone was where they were, or wearing certain clothes…
Seriously.. Where is the sense in that? Let’s all just be good girls/boys and stay at home where we are safe from groping/sexual assault/drink spiking!
Where will it end?
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No, being groped is not acceptable. But saying that the security guard did nothing without actually telling him to do something falls back on you. Yes, he should have been proactive – but when he didn’t, you should have spoken to him and demanded he act. If he still didn’t, then you should have found the manager. If the manager did nothing (I would be very surprised!) but then you should complain to the owners.
These people’s jobs are to protect the patrons – regardless of the venue or its location.
P.s. years ago I worked in a nightclub and was groped between the legs from the front as I crossed the floor with my hands full. I told a security guard what happened and he spoke to the guy. I then told the security guard that that was not good enough and to eject the guy. So he did.
Take some control of the situation for yourself!
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Everyone remember the Pink song ‘U & Ur Hand’?
There’s a reason why that song was so successful – because every single female that has ever gone out for the night has had to endure this kind of harrassment on at least one of those nights. We used to like to sing this song at top volume in the car because it was exactly what we wished we had had the courage to say to those guys that you wind up hiding in the bathrooms from just desperately hoping they will go the hell away and leave you and your girlfriends alone to just enjoy the night! There are so many ways to handle these advances (including the bathrooms, the tell off, etc) but some nights it just really really annoys you that you have to do it at all.
There are, of course, plenty of times you are quite happy to be ‘appreciated’ from afar because you have gone to an effort to dress yourself up nicely, but there is still your own personal bubble around you that you should have the right to allow people in as you choose, and not just have it invaded against your will!
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Might I please, with respect, ask why MM gave no coverage to the disgusting behaviour of certain members of the Canterbury Bulldogs during the “Mad Monday” celebrations.
A female reporter was subjected to all kinds of gross comments by these men, and the issue was not highlighted on this site. I’m very curious, why not ?
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No it’s not ok… But it’s def a two way st what about the new pad ad where the girls get up to go sit in their car n watch the blokes in boot camp… I like the ad but imagine of it showed men going that what perves
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What do you mean? There are LOADS of ads with men checking out half naked women. The article was also about sexual harassment. Looking is not harassment !
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Did you know…
That many women do the same thing to men?
It’s true. I’ve been groped in clubs by women who seem to be of a mindset that, “hey, it’s a club, what did you expect?”
You might be thinking, “but you’re a guy, it’s different for you. You enjoy it.”
Oh but I don’t. I don’t even like being in clubs, I go there with friends for special occasions because they enjoy my company, and I enjoy theirs.
And here comes the sticky part – because of the behaviour of a few women that have objectified me, and of course those I’ve witnessed objectifying other men (how many women don’t objectify the male lead in Gray’s Anatomy, or the cute delivery guy at work, or some guy in their lives?) should I know judge all women to be the same?
Of course not. But objectification of the opposite sex is not exclusive to just one gender, and it is not general to it either. It is simply natural human behaviour. Of course, the unsolicited physical contact and sexual advances need to be reigned in, and that’s why pubs and clubs need better sexual harassment policies and deterrents, but you cannot honestly sit there and conclude that “women in bars and pubs will be treated like objects and should expect to be ogled,” because believe it or not, men are being treated the same way. Whether they enjoy it or not is beside the point – there cannot be one set of rules for one gender, and another set for the other, especially after women have been fighting equality for more than half a century. Your conclusion, I’m sorry, is far too general, and I believe you need to be a little more critical of your emotional reaction to the way you’ve been treated so you can realise that you’re not the only one being treated that way, and men and women alike are just as vulnerable to objectification from the opposite sex. Even the same sex.
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Yes it is true that men are objectified and harassed but nowhere near the same amount as women. Men are often more powerful and more able to defend themselves. ANY harassment is NOT okay but this is certainly a big issue for women and there is nothing wrong with writing it.
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I think the difference is also the implication. When a girl is being harrassed by a drunk guy, it’s not just the harassment or groping that’s the scary part, but the knowledge that he could get out of hand, could get increasingly agressive, could follow you home/spike your drink/corner you in the bathroom…you get the point.
I completely understand that men don’t want to be groped by horny strangers either, but do they hold the same fear that the perpetrator might assault or rape them? I doubt it.
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I have to say, that I’m pretty disappointed with the attitude of Elle and Alice.
You’re totally dismissive of a valid point of view, with no real reason for it other than “you’re a man, cop it sweet”.
Sexual assault perpetrated by women on men happens, violence perpetrated by women on men happens, and the attitude that it’s apparently ok to do so because the man is stronger is not valid.
So I’ll put it this way;
I have no intention of raping you, in fact, I’ll happily leave as soon as I’ve grabbed you on the breasts as you walk past. By your logic this is ok as that is the worst that will happen.
You’re just wrong.
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I don’t think they were suggesting that men should cop it sweet. No one should, but whether you like it or not there is almost always a physical power imbalance between men and women and women as the physically weaker sex are far more aware of this.
The fact that most men behave themselves and some will even help out those that are vulnerable unasked just highlights the fact that there are d*^#heads about.
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None of us have said violence and assault are anything other than WRONG. It is just ridiculous of you to allege our view was “you’re a man cop it sweet” when we said absolutely nothing even remotely close to that. It is just every time there is a discussion about sexual harassment of women some male commentators have to bring up that “men get harassed too and its not all about women”.
ANY harassment is bad but this is a mainly female site, this article is written from a female’s perspective and this particular harassment is something the majority of women relate to. It is a fact that this is a big issue for women and something that the majority of men do not experience or understand. I’m sure if a male wanted to write an article about their experience of sexual harassment/assault that Mamamia would be open to publishing it.
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Able to defend themselves? HOW exactly? Physically, when it’s idiotically drilled into them to never hit a woman even in self-defence? By reporting it, when they get laughed at?
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I agree that it’s absolutely 100% wrong for women to do the same thing to men, I’ve watched women who’ve had a bit too much to drink inappropriately touch a waiter or grab some guy’s ass as he was passing by. I don’t think it’s any more acceptable for a woman to grope a guy than for a guy to grope a woman, and think it’s ridiculous that some people think that it is. The only distinction I make is that men are almost always much, much stronger than women (though I don’t deny that women can be very aggressive at times) so when a guy assaults you there’s always the thought at the back of your mind that it would be very easy for him to take it as far as he wanted to and there’s not much you could do about it.
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i once was grabbed between the legs by a guy in a pub. sorry my immediate reaction was to deck him. security saw that part & tried to kick me out… oops, but after my GFs explained what ‘he’ did thankfully they ejected him! don’t condone what I did, but bare in mind guys, it can be a natural reaction.., u can get accidebtally decked… you’ve been forewarned
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I once met a couple of women in a bar who were copping the same sort of treatment you described. (I can’t remember which bar, or even which city). Me and my mates decided to look out for them and I found myself dancing ( something I never usually do. I am an atrocious dancer!) We pretended we were with the ladies and had a great time. There was nearly a fight or two but the two women had a great time after all was said and done and so did we. They too were two women out for a girls night and had left their boyfriends at home, or at another pub probably, and did not need any unwanted attention. It is a shame that you had this experience but I cannot understand why women can’t go out to a pub just to enjoy themselves the same way men can. Keep hitting the pubs and enjoy yourself. It is your right as much as it is mine
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You’re a good egg, Mark
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“There was nearly a fight or two but …”
A former BF once told me that some blokes are more interested in provoking fights with other men than molesting women. So they will molest the woman who is in the company of a man to provoke him. That was his theory anyway.
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When I read the tagline on Twitter, I couldn’t help it – I immediately thought you were (somehow, told through the cosmos) talking about my friend and myself.
We live in London, work in the same pub (recession + a need to eat does not a lot of choice make) and every single day have to put up with sleazy harrassment, locals talking to our chest not our face, being asked to bend over if we were anything shorter than knee length, and just generally made to feel like we are there for the locals’ pleasure, not two smart, independent women who happen to have degrees and whole lot of life experience.
Some days you can brush it off. Some days it makes you so upset you have to hightail it outta there. And some days it makes you fire up and give the customer’s a piece of your mind.
So I completely applaud you for yelling at that day. It actually takes a lot of lady balls to be downright aggressive, rather than the ‘I’m so sorry, I’ve got a boyfriend/am a lesbian’ that it easier to fall back on.
(For the love of god, no offence to lesbians. But sometimes it’s a fail safe option when some guy is being super pushy.)
Next time some guy decides groping your arse is perfectly acceptable, turn around and slap him. Maybe he doesn’t want to be touched, either?
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As a gay woman I completely disagree with using “I’m a lesbian” as an option for avoiding unwanted attention, if anything it may actually prove to be more dangerous. The amount of times that I have been “hit on” (read aggressively harassed) and told that I “just need some good dick” is repulsive but still somewhat better than the times that i have been bashed, stalked/followed into bathrooms etc. A better option would be to tell security to deal with someone.
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I was having a night out with my boyfriend a few years ago and was sitting down talking to three other people when someone came up behind me and took both of my breasts in his hands. Seeing as how I was looking at my boyfriend in the eye at the time, I rather gathered that it wasn’t him. My first thought was that one of my cousins was doing something outrageous as a joke (that’s just the way my family runs, I would have thought it was hilarious if it had been), but I turned around and it was just a random guy. To say I saw red would be an understatement. I stood up, turned around and slapped the guy as hard as I could in the face (and as angry as I was, it was really, really hard). Couldn’t believe it. Neither could the boyfriend. Between him and the bouncers, the guy was kicked out, fairly, uh, forcibly. This was probably the worst I’ve been groped, but I’ve had my ass pinched, hands put up my dress and bodies pressed against me in an unwelcome manner more times than I care to remember. Having said that, I’ve never had a problem if guys have wanted to look at me (back in the day!) as long as it’s not ridiculous. If I see someone looking at me, I’ll smile at them in a friendly way.
My Mum told me that once she was in a pub sitting at the counter and a guy sat down next to her and squeezed her breast. Reflexively, my Mum punched him out cold and he hit the deck. Like mother, like daughter, I guess.
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Ugh I’ve had this experience so many times. I’ve had guys shove their hands up my skirt, grab my boobs, be verbally harassed – and bouncers just look on and shrug. When I have actually complained to the bouncers I can’t think of one time they intervened.
I then went to NY and was in a bar with some girlfriends. A drunk guy sat down and was being (nice) but drunkenly annoying. My friend went up to some random american guys at the bar and told them we felt uncomfortable, and the guy came over and very politely asked the drunk guy to leave us alone, then kept him away from us for the rest of the night. I have never, ever felt comfortable asking an australian guy (a stranger) to intervene like that! They’d scoff in your face and tell you to hack it!! I think Aussie’s have a very different attitude about how women should be spoken to and treated. I think we have a sexism that’s so ingrained people don’t even recognise it as sexism – they just see it as normal social interaction.
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I like your comment but do feel you’re massively over generalising making that statement about ‘Australian’ men. I’ve met more great Aussie guys than bad, and the same with other nationalities also. There is always bad and good no matter what nationality and I feel you’re being really unfair to the decent Aussie men out there.
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I have never, ever felt comfortable asking an australian guy (a stranger) to intervene like that! They’d scoff in your face and tell you to hack it!! I think Aussie’s have a very different attitude about how women should be spoken to and treated. I think we have a sexism that’s so ingrained people don’t even recognise it as sexism – they just see it as normal social interaction.
You just proved your own point! I’d never have a problem asking guys for help if it was needed.
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Your assertion that “Aussie men” see this sort of behaviour as acceptable is nothing short of offensive.
You won’t stop this sort of behaviour by insulting every bloke in the country, it just makes men not feel inclined to help if that’s the opinion you have of us. I’m just glad that “most” women think that “most” men, are actually pretty decent guys.
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Disagree – I have no doubt that my father, brothers, uncles and many of my male friends would step up and confront a man on your behalf if it was necessary. And I think that they’d find your massive generalisation as insulting as I do.
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OK so I in no way condone the groping and inappropriate smutty comments, but I would debate with any woman that you don’t feel slightly pleased with a bit of an ego boost when a nice guy gives you an eye or a smile when you’re out with your girls.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m happily married but I’m happy to be considered as a “sex object” instead of my everyday sleepless mummy self of two babes, in my mid 30s but who can still look decent when I can be bothered!
Yep, there you go. The ugly, but still kinda pretty, truth!
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Sure, when a nice guy gives you an eye or a smile, even approaches you in a respectful way but this article was about men taking it a further. When rebuffed these men didn’t just go away they harassed, called her a bitch and groped. A very different scenario.
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Interesting though that I have spent many years from teens, 20s and 30s in pubs, clubs and the like being single and married. I have never encountered a situation where rebuffed guys pushed the boundaries in a situation where I couldn’t handle or had friends (male and female) help out if a guy was being a dick. I’ve never had to resort to decking a guy. Yeah, so they may call you a bitch. Who cares? Walk away and go home. They don’t know you so why do you care what they think or what they call you. In any situation like these described, be rude, leave and don’t dwell on it. Enjoy the experiences I described above. I would like to think, hope, believe this post is a minority. Guys, well the guys I’ve known and know, would never treat a girl like this.
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Same, KTT. All these people claiming to be getting groped so much. I think there may be a bit of exaggeration happening!
My cousin met her husband by pinching him repeatedly on the bum at a nightclub!
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Why should you just ‘walk away and go home’ ? Why should we have to leave because some guys are hassling us? Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it isn’t common.
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You are never going to be able to control the actions of those around you but you do have complete control of your own. You don’t like it, you feel unsafe? Walk away and remove yourself from the situation.
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I don’t accept that I can’t go out with my girlfriends and have a good time because of some dickheads that can’t behave appropriately. They should be the ones to leave or alter their behaviour. Just ignoring it and leaving sends the message that its okay and lets them continue being assholes.
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And conversely, just because you may have experienced it doesn’t mean it is common either.
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A long, long time ago (when dinosaurs roamed the earth), I was physically harassed / assaulted on campus. I reacted with repeated punches. In retrospect, it could all have gone very, very wrong but luckily it didn’t.
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First let me apologise for the 1% of guys who are like that and treat women like nothing more than meat. The 99% that make up the rest of the male population are caring, respectful and respect everyone (not just women but everyone). No one should be objected to that behavior regardless of the situation. We’re never talked about because we’re not a part and never will associated with the 1%.
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It’s not 1% though. In some places it more like 80%. Commonly it’s 10 – 20% who are extreme and another 50% who are making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
There are lots of men who are very well behaved but the ones who aren’t are not rare at all.
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Well, I don’t know any of your 80% and I assure you I’m not “excusing anyone or blaming the victim”. I’ll stick to the 1% in my experience.
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Alex, you’re hanging out at the wrong places.
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To grope or to touch is just not on. Apart from with my immediate family I do NOT like to be touched. Social kissing and hugging bothers me a lot.
I can only imagine how annoying it is to be touched when you don’t want to be.
I used to be on the receiving end of a lot of night club butt squeezing in the late nineties and it pissed me off no end. I even had a lady stick her hands down my pants and try to whip “it” out. Lovely!
Men’s urinals were terrible for women coming in to use the toilets and make size comments because they were too drunk to know that they should be scared.
All I know for sure is no one has the right to touch.
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Ok, seeing as it seems that this is turning into a man haters club i’m going to give you a male experience. No one deserves to be touched or harrassed and i would think that not only was it poor behaviour but the security guards were destitute to their duty and should be fired or educated about acceptable levels of behaviour….However by my personal experience i can tell you that i’ve witnessed far worse behaviour from “respectable” women on Hens days and girls nights out. For some reason perfectly normal reserved females become raving sex pots once they mix alcohol and a straw shaped like a penis. I’ve been groped, touched and had many suggestive remarks thrown at me even though it’s pretty plain by the wedding ring on my finger that i’m not available.The amateur psychologist in me would say that the pack mentality takes over in both males and females which seems to be much the same as your experience.
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Yes, this is true. A friend of mine chased a male stripper around the room and then bit him on his bare arse on a hen’s night. The bouncers chucked us out pretty sharpish after that.
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I actually heard the interview Lauryn did with Triple M and I was quite taken aback that she said what she did. She almost, in my opinion, sounded as thou she was quite pleased with the fact that she is ogled and men seeing her as just a sex object. I expected probably a more dignified response especially when she is in the public eye.
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I was in her year all through high school and I’m also disappointed with her comments.
That doesn’t sound like the girl I remember from high school and I hope she doesn’t turn into another Lara bingle. Lauryn is fiercely intelligent and I don’t think she is letting that part of herself shine through.
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The touching is unacceptable. The ogling is only unfair if you’re not, consciously or unconsciously, dressed in a manner deliberately designed by the clothing manufacturers to be “Sexy”. It amazes me how women can wear clothing, like a bikini for a clear example, designed for no purpose other than to expose as much sexual organ as is legal; to be as sexy and sexually provocative as is human possible clothing-wise, and complain that people stare or treat them as sexual “objects” or sexual beings. Women have been brainwashed by post-feminist misogynists of both sexes to treat sexualising clothing and behaviours as a default, as a natural, neutral norm. When in fact some couldn’t be sexualising themselves and their young daughters more if they tried.
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The only part of the body a bikini shows more of than a one piece is the stomach.
Which is not a sexual organ.
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ok today was a really hot day
so i wore short shorts and a cropped top. i was still sweating like niagara falls (because that’s how my dad’s genes do).
so because i choose to be comfortable which means lesser clothing because it is warm, that means that i am automatically sexualised? or does it mean that i live in a society that sexualises my body for me without my decision? or does it mean that i simply should not leave the house during the whole of summer?? interesting questions
also think about swimming:
women wearing full body suits: catwoman: sexualised. (also awesome.)
women wearing tshirts that get wet: sexualised.
women wearing onepiece swimsuits: sexualised.
women getting wet and swimming: sexualised.
women having a body in itself: sexualised.
the bikini was designed for a purpose other than decorative which is swimming and comfort and it makes it easy to pee when you’re at the pool. so there you have it the mystery is solved!
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just curious Barry, do you have the same objections to men who wear speedos? Are they also classed as being sexually provocative ?
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Amen.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion and even anger being directed at those who believe that ogling, groping etc is to be expected when women go out to pubs or clubs, or are wearing “those sorts of clothes”. I feel like this confusion and anger, while understandable to an extent, is misdirected. Some women, it seems, have been conditioned to believe that this is normal, to be expected, or even tolerated. It’s a learned behaviour that unfortunately reflects incredibly poorly on our society today. No matter what you’re wearing, not matter what the situation, no matter whether alcohol is involved or not, anything that makes you feel uncomfortable or threatened at all is never okay. An unwanted touch, or even a look. If YOU feel uncomfortable, it is NOT acceptable.
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I hate the “boys will be boys” defense, the notion that men have no self-control and women just have to expect this kind of treatment and either put up with it or stay home. Again, the onus and blame is placed on women to modify their behaviour instead of holding these men responsible for their inappropriate and illegal behaviour. Pub or not, it is not ok to touch and grope someone. If we all stop accepting this kind of behaviour, men and women alike, then it won’t seem normal anymore.
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I was having a big discussion about this sort of stuff with my Mum on the weekend, and even though she doesn’t think this sort of behaviour is acceptable, she still came out with “boys will be boys”. I didn’t know how to explain to her sufficiently that anyone spouting those kind of platitudes is still buying into that culture and helping ensure that it stays the status quo.
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Nat I would have approached the security guards (maybe they thought you were ‘enjoying’ the attention) and if they refused to do anything to stop it I would have asked for a manager to be called in. Proprietors need to take responsibility for what happens on their premises. They need to be told that this sort of thing is unacceptable and if they think otherwise you should leave.
I say this sort of thing as I am much older than you. The one time I ever got harrassed in a nightclub (embarrassed to say this was in the 1990s!!) and I didn’t want it I called the security over and they dealt with it – very efficiently and effectively.
There would be other places you could take this further as well I would think.
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yes, i fully agree. you needed to get the managments attention to inappropriate behaviour.
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Nat – what a terrible (but not uncommon) story.
Earlier in the year my sister went out for dinner with a group of people including her boyfriend. After dinner they decided to go for a drink at a near by inner-city bar.
While my sister was in line with her boyfriend to buy a drink, a man came up behind her and ran his hand from the front of her crotch to her bottom. Without being overly graphic, think of the motion when using toilet paper. Yes. That.
My sister went absolutely ballistic (quite rightly) and screamed at the guy. When her boyfriend realised what had happened he tried to grab the guy but he ran out the door before anyone could catch him.
In my books this is sexual assault. She reported it to the police but as the man got away there wasn’t really anything they could do except keep her account on file. It is terrifying to think that he is still out there.
I think the case of Jill Meagher has re-ignited discussion among women about the kind of physical and verbal assaults most of us have to contend with at some point during our lives. It is completely disgraceful.
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I have had something similar happen to me. I had a guy in a pub sneak up behind me and stick his hand up my skirt to grab my crotch. It was completely unexpected and filled me with a feeling of utter violation. I cannot describe the rage I felt.
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That’ s assault. Report it to everyone. The bar, the bouncer, the police. Everyone you can think of.
That man deserves to be in jail.
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I’ve also had something similar happen to me – more than once unfortunately. The worst was when the guy actually tried to circumnavigate my underwear as he went for the big crotch garb.
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Being an Aussie male, I feel incredibly sad for you all to have experienced that. I can’t even imagine the circumstances that I would consider doing something like that. It blows me away to think that these guys think that it’s ok.
apart from that, they deserve to be arrested, charged and tried.
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Like Muslim Extremists, those men that harassed represent a minority. A minority that is in your face that spoil it for the majority who also just want to have fun. Women are not objects. But some women don’t help this preconception by wanting to be treated like objects, once again a minority.
Sorry you had a bad time in Melbourne.
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I can totally relate to this article, more than once me and my best friend get all dressed up, super excited for a big night, only to be harassed, and somewhat bullied my men who think they can touch me, treat me and talk to me like garbage. More than once, the security guard does nothing, and looks over at me while I’m trying to get grubby hands away from my body, more than once have I stormed out of a nightclub and or bar feeling like shit. Oh yeah and the next guy to think it’s ok to blow on my neck whilst waiting to get in a venue, because they think it’s ‘sexy’ is sorely mistaken. Gahhh!!!
Yes I’m wearing high heels, mini skirt but that does not mean it’s an invitation or you to treat me in such a way. I’m not looking at you, I don’t want to talk to you, and I’m not giving you any clues that I’m even remotely interested! Honestly it’s gotten to the point now where I only go out with my relatives or my boyfriend, along with my girlfriends.
Sorry this is a major peeve of mine, and I needed to vent.
Enough is enough.
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I’m just wondering, why was it ok to for you to look ata “ridiculously good looking lead singer”, but it’s not ok for anyone to look at you?
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Looking is not harassment.
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by that standard then is being looked at the same as being oggled at and thus everybody does it not just men at women..Not trying to be mean (or condoning physical harrassment) just wondering your opinion Mia, how does one draw the line between just looking and looking that is considered harrassment?
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to ogle at someone is not the same as glancing in interest or watching someone (who has placed themselves in a context where they have implicitly consented to be watched, e.g. a stage).
to ogle at someone is to not respect their privacy in a public space. how do you feel if someone stares at you? do you feel comfortable, or do you feel strange if a complete stranger gives you a lot of attention for no apparent reason than your gender and/or appearance?
i draw the line if i look back at someone and they keep looking and if they make me feel like i’m being watched. similarly, if you can see their eyes going to other areas of the body other than your face, it’s obvious that they care more about your body than yourself as a person. that is ogling.
it’s acceptable to take a peek if you think the person won’t notice, or to have eye contact in a flirtatious way (if you have met the person and/or are polite to them) but to stare at someone without respecting their wishes is rude and can make someone feel horrible.
and everybody wants to be able to walk around without being ogled, yelled at, or touched. nobody asks for those things.
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Also, the singer is a performer. They’re on stage. And the audience comes to look at them.
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Fair point Deb
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Oh Nat, nothing has changed. Pubs have always been like this. But it’s when this type of behaviour spills out onto the streets that I feel most threatened. In the early 1990’s I was harassed by some guys while I was at a bus stop waiting to catch a bus to my then boyfriend’s house. Some guys walked up and sat beside me, they were friendly to begin with and I was polite in return. It started to spit with rain, which meant I could excuse myself and move to a nearby shelter.
But they turned nasty asking why I moved, calling me a slut and threatening to catch the same bus as me. When they lined up behind me in my bus queue several male bus passengers stood up for me telling them to get some manners. In the end they didn’t catch my bus but they continued to hurl abuse at myself and others through our bus windows.
I was young and felt so ashamed. I wondered if it was because of what I was wearing? (Not that it should make a difference). My biggest regret is that I couldn’t look any of the male passengers who had helped me in the face and I never said thank you.
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I love how you pointed out you were wearing flat shoes.
My male friends wonder why I don’t go to bars to meet guys. Hilarious. Fortunately I’m older and heavier now so it might not be the desperate fight for survival that it was in my twenties.
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It frustrates me to no end when guys use the “that’s what guys do” excuse to justify acting like a pr**k. And it makes no sense – it is just pulling men down and making them sound like incapable, mindless idiots. Being heavily inclined to find women attractive does not make you powerless to treating or speaking about them them like they are objects.
Take responsibility and realise that your actions are because of your own selfish, pigheaded choices and not because of your penis. Do not try to bring half the population down to your level.
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Wow can I apologise to you on behalf of polite men..thats disgraceful and offensive..it shouldn’t happen.
It isn’t all of us I can assure you
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You are not alone. Here is my experience: http://wwwgreenginger.blogspot.com.au/2012_02_01_archive.html
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Is it possible for those two amazing guys that stood by you Nat to give lessons to the apes in the bar?
As for Gary and Lauryn, sadly, one comment is slightly shocking and the other is to be expected given the club he is involved with. Disgusting.
What the hell has ever given these apes the idea that its ok to feel up a total stranger?!
Clearly the bouncers were just for show?
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I’m sorry to hear what happened Nat – That’s really unfair
I have been in similar situations and the one that stands out is similar thing guy was harassing me i kept saying things like, I’m married, not interested… go away! He then did the arm around the waste thing, I pushed him off and told him how i felt ( you have no right to touch me get your hands off me) he then proceeded to slap me across the face. I couldn’t believe it I was in shock, it was awful and i now til this day (this happened years ago) still think about it when I’m out
What I want to say also is that not all guys are like this but women should NOT have to put up with guys physically or verbally abusing them
I work in a male dominated industry and at work functions myself and my female counterparts constantly get hit on, bums slapped, pinched etc.THIS IS NOT OK but in my industry this is viewed as normal….. Its awful but you know “boys will be boys”
Anyway as you can probably tell I’m pretty passionate about it… sorry for the rant lol
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Looking and touching are two very very different things.
Nobody should just have to accept being touched without their permission.. that’s sexual assault.
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It’s important to remember that expecting and accepting are not the same thing. It may happen, but we don’t have to allow it to continue.
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‘Expect’ is completely different to ‘accept’
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If it makes you feel any better, i am overweight so no one ever looks at me.
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I don’t think anyone has a problem with being looked at or admired. Looking is different to ogling – the latter makes you uncomfortable, self-conscious and intimidated.
It’s a sad day when being ogled, groped and harassed is seen as something complimentary that women should aspire to or be grateful for.
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I dont see it that way, it’s just a fact about me. No one looks at me. I dont have the same problem, never have. Wouldnt have a clue what it’s like.
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What happened to you in that pub had nothing to do with a man being attracted to you and wanting to strike up a conversation and everything to do with a man deciding that you were fair game, because you did not have a man with you and you were not where he thought you ought to be (at home doing the dishes, no doubt) Once again this is about power.
The Mad Monday incident is just the same and I am horrified that women are standing up for those footballers saying they hadn’t had a drink in ages, or had a hard season etc. The ability to catch a ball and run fast with it does not give anyone the right to break the rules. The language those footballers used was threatening and downright ignorant (check Dave down further in the comments for the quote). We have to get past this “boys will be boys” mentality. It benefits no one.
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Seriously uncool. That Jaycar guy is lucky that his customers consist mainly of male propellerheads.
I’ve met Lauryn Eagle and can understand why she might feel constantly ogled. She’s a very striking woman.
I think that it’s worthwhile to define ogling vs looking. Ogling is staring at a woman (or her body parts) to the point that she’s uncomfortable. Guys shouldn’t ogle, but expecting men to stop looking is a bit King Canute.
Groping is just not on.
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I agree with you. I think it is very easy to make a distinction between looking and ogling. Nothing wrong with looking. It is usually reasonably fleeting, is a normal thing to do and is part of normal human interaction. Ogling on the other hand is more sustained and aggressive and makes people very uncomfortable.
It is like the difference between looking at someone during conversation (which is normal and polite) and staring at them for minutes on end without blinking. That’s creepy and psycho.
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so now that i’m an ‘object’ can i stop contributing to society and paying taxes now?
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It will happen of course but there is no need for endorsements by way of explanation from people with public profiles. No need to verbally outline the behaviour with anything more than a curt, one-sentence description. The explanation as to why it should not happen can and should be spoken about at length and as often as possible.
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Women know the social boundaries unless it is Ryan Gosling then all bets are off
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Sometimes in these situations, we as women need to take the power back and take matters further.
For instance, should we stand back and hope the security guard comes and says something?
No, you go up to them tell them what the problem is, and if they don’t do something about it, tell them you’ll call the police and let the licensing officer know what goes on in their establishment.
Works a treat. Believe me.
Being groped is indecent assault. Let’s not minimise it. Do we as women want our apathy and almost acceptance that this behaviour is a given, to send the message to these guys that it’s ok?
I am in no way victim blaming here, I’m well aware of the dynamics and complexities of these issues having worked with many women who have experienced such things.
But we as women do have the power to make a change. If we don’t believe it who will?
Yes certain men should know better etc. etc. and it shouldn’t happen, but really are we going to wait around for them to realise this? Because chances are they are the type of people who will keep doing it.
So when something happens girls, take the power back and do something about it!
Keep doing something about it and demand better outcomes and this includes from the police.
I’ve spoken to countless friends over the last couple of weeks about the number of incidents including assaults they have ‘endured’ as women and the police response has been not great to say the least.
If you walk into a police station and they don’t take you seriously, remind them of the Charter of Victims Rights and ask to speak to their supervising officer. If you don’t feel confident to do it yourself ask a friend to help you.
Yeah it sounds like a hassle, but at least you have sent a message that it’s not ok. That’s it’s not ok for a police officer to think it’s too much paperwork or ‘we’ll never catch him’. Your info and other women’s info all adds up.
Collectively as women we need keep sending the message that this is just not ok. If we keep sending this message then surely it’s better than standing back with fingers crossed that these men will change their behaviour???
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Exactly! I ALWAYS stand up for myself in these situations. I don’t create a fictional boyfriend to send the message that it would be fine if I was single. I loudly tell the guy to stop touching me. If that doesn’t work, I tell a bouncer I’m being hassled.
Don’t be intimidated – draw attention to the situation, demand respect and demand others help you if you need it.
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I agree. I totally respect the author was making the best choice available to her, but I think in general it’s a good idea if women don’t use the “I have a boyfriend” line, because, really, it shouldn’t matter if you have a boyfriend or not.
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I think the best course of action is the one that gets you out of the hot spot. Who really cares if you invent a fictional boyfriend who happens to be built like Shrek.
Once you know you are safe then the next thing to do is get the bastards who shove their hands up your skirts charged.
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I was reading this thinking, hell yeah, I remember a few times I’ve stood up for myself, asked the bouncer to remove the offenders and what not. Then I realised those times I was sober or just a bit tipsy. Unfortunately, a few times I’ve been groped whilst I was intoxicated and whilst I threw a disgusted look or a few choice words I felt I wouldn’t be taken seriously if I approached a bouncer. I just wanted to put this out there in case the author or any other girls have felt the same way. For me, it just adds a bit of insult to injury to be told I could’ve handled the situation better.
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Im a 19 year old, blonde girl who spends most Saturday nights in Kings Cross clubs so I know EXACTLY what you mean.
The men who do the groping etc should definately take full responsibility, of course.
But for anyone that actually goes out, you know it’s quite unrealistic to just ‘expect’ that guys won’t do this because they ‘shouldn’t’. You have to at least be prepared that this kindof thing is going to happen. It’s the reality of it.
I have guys grab me and refuse to let go, put my hand down their pants, put their hands up my skirt, and really bad things that can ruin having a fun time with my friends. And this isn’t one or two, probobly more times than not when I go out.
But stuff like this happens, as much as you don’t want it too.
For every gross guy out there though, there are about 10 times more good guys who will help a girl out if they can see she’s being hassled by some creepy dude, whether he knows her or not. And boucers are usually pretty good (although not in your story it seems…).
If I ever have a son, I would definately teach him that he can never be too protective of girls when he goes out!
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“I have guys grab me and refuse to let go, put my hand down their pants, put their hands up my skirt”
That right there is assault! Next time you should report it. There is no excuse for that!
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There are better places than Kings Cross to spend your Saturday nights, Chloe
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“But stuff like this happens, as much as you don’t want it too.”
Chloe report this stuff straight away! Don’t just say ‘oh well it happens!’ Stand up for yourself and say it is NOT okay and then it will happen less!
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Once I was on a train into the city to meet up with my then boyfriend for a hot date when I was approached by this French Cameroonian dude. He asked me my name, I explained I was on my way to meet someone and he politely backed off, saying “well I just wanted to say that you look very nice tonight and I hope you have a good time and if things don’t work out then I’d feel very lucky to be able to get to know you”. No groping, no leering, just class. Why is that so freaking hard for so many other guys?
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Big kudos to the two guys who pretended to be your boyfriends to try and stop the harassment. There are definitely decent guys out there!
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I know right? They definitely restored my faith in humanity!
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I am all-too-familiar with these types of situations. I often go to gigs where the predominate audience is male, simply because of the type of music I am into. The number of times I have turned around at gigs to tell men to stop groping me and let me just enjoy the band that I came along to see is ridiculous.
I am always polite at first, and get progressively more assertive. “Can you please stand back a little”, “Stop touching me please”, “Dude, get the hell off me … I just want to watch the band”.
If it still doesn’t stop, I move spots in the crowd, but why should I have to? Why change where I am standing, or who I am standing near, because it is apparently ok to grope a girl you don’t know, and then blame it on alcohol.
I mean, imagine if I did the same thing… was stumbling in a drunken manner, went up behind a guy, and pestered him by groping his bum until he got frustrated and moved… I am guessing that security guards would have me removed immediately for drunken misconduct…
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I’d be very tempted to yell ‘STOP GROPING ME’ between songs. Not great gig behaviour, but it would get other people’s attention and take away the plausible deniability of ‘couldn’t hear your protests over the music’.
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Nat you definitely handled it more passively than I have in the past, and how my friends do it.
When I was about 19, a guy groped me repeatedly in the pub. The first time, I glared at him. The second time I swore that if he touched me again he would regret it (he probably thought I was kidding because despite my height, there wasnt much to me). The third time I turned around, grabbed him by the collar and threw him back into the pool table behind him where his mates were playing. That was enough to get the attention of the Security, who escorted/manhandled him outside for the night.
I do take great satisfaction in how one of my friends deals with it. She takes the eye for an eye routine to a new level. If shes groped, she saunters over to the offender and grabs his crotch firmly, nails and all. She then tells them that she will do damage if he ever touches her again.
Im not one for violence or assault usually, but if men (or women) think its ok to assault someone for laughs or as some messed up ‘pick up’, they have to be prepared for it to backfire, or for the tables to be turned.
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how do some men turn out this way that they expect to be able to grope &/or verbally abuse a woman because she’s there? how exaclty are boys raised in this country of ours? Im genuinely interested. I worked as young woman for years in a sports bar, and neither myself, nor my colleagues Ever had something as disgusting as what was said to that reporter said to us.
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Im actually more curious as to what they think will come of it.
Do they expect women to turn around and say “Oh thank you, I have waited for someone to grope/catcall/oogle me all night. You are the winner, lets go home together”?!
One night I was crossing the road with my sister and a group of young guys called out “hey you ladies! Come here! We should f*** in this car tonight”. Being ever the smarta** I replied “Sure, just let me pick up my pizza…. of course not you f***ing moron!”.
I would genuinely be interested to hear what they expect out of such behaviour. But alas my male friends are much too polite to answer that question from experience.
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Heres my two cents …
first I detest being groped in a pub/bar/venue and if someone did it I would probably throw my drink on them – if you want to touch me, wait until invited to do so.
but there are so many things here – what about all the girls that go out LOOKING for that – please dont misconstrue what I am about to say and i am by no means excusing male behaviour, but its the middle of winter, I am out in jeans and a pretty jacket and young ladies walk into a bar wearing skirts that barely cover there backside – if they dropped something they would not be able to bend over and pick it up. Men may ogle at that, my girlfriends and i look on in horror – however both men and women are staring.
and then you have the football chasers – women who go to these places and throw themselves at footy players purely because of their jobs. Does it excuse this behaviour – categorically no way!! however im just saying there are many many sides to these situations.
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I’ve gone to reply to this comment quite a few times and I don’t know quite how to start. I really don’t want this to sound rude or mean. So here goes. JLB I respectively disagree with you. I don’t believe that there are many sides to stories like these. I think that women should be free of the kind of abuse that this article details regardless of what they’re wearing. To suggest otherwise is kind of like saying a woman gets what’s coming to her if she’s sexually assaulted or raped because she was wearing a short dress, huge heels etc. Men are in control of their own behaviour and a woman’s make up or clothing shouldn’t be treated as an invitation to act in a particular way. I believe that men should be taught that this kind of behaviour is inappropriate – the problem is not with the way women dress.
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Hi Tiff
I know what your saying – and I was trying to avoid saying it like that because its not what i mean eg if you dress a particular way you are inviting trouble etc. It is never ok to touch any one regardless without permission and it shouldnt matter how you dress. what i am saying is that taking the toucing side out of it – i recently went to a bar were a girl wore a dress so short that her butt cheek was showing (she was very clearly weraing a gstrig) both men and women stare – men in an ogle and wow and women in a “poor girl needs a friend to tell her the truth”. thats what i mean about it – its not ok and it never is, but people stare at girls like that in bars (regardless of gender). However it shouldnt matter what you wear, but walk into a bar in something like that, i would be suprised if the individual wasnt doing it for some kind of attntion
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Girls don’t really need to look for that kind of attention, it’s always there.
Women who hang around and try to pick up football players are obviously going to want to be touched and hit on by one of them – that’s consent.
Totally different from being touched without permission.
It’s really simple – don’t sexually touch someone without their permission.
It doesn’t matter if they are wearing a bikini or a a snowsuit. Consent is the only thing that matters.
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I agree JLB the behaviour of some guys can be appalling, but so too can the behaviour of some girls. I’ve lived aroung Rugby League culture my whole life and have witnessed first hand how girls act when they’re around the players. It doesn’t surprise me how young guys have no respect for a lot of girls, especially since the girls have no respect for themselves. I’ve heard a lot of stories and I think Mum’s of girls really need to adress this with their daughters. My kids are adults now and my girls act respectfully as does my son. But they are horrified by a lot of the behaviour of girls that they have witnessed.
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I was once on a rare girls night out with a bunch of close friends, when I made the comment that I had never been bought a drink by a stranger, or hit on in any way, (even though I’m married, it’s an ego boost to think other people still find you attractive!)
My best friend, who was then backed up by everyone else, said its because I give off a vibe, that she actually called it a back the f#@! Off vibe.
So now I use it to my advantage, sadly it doesn’t work like a shield for my friends though and doesn’t seem to affect those guys who are so drunk they can’t see straight.
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Yep, I have the same thing going on. Unfortunately, it works a little too well and thus I never end up attracting the good kind of attention. I have also been known to back-kick a gropey man in the upper thigh region once or twice, works a treat in scaring them into leaving me alone!
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