Have a penis? That’ll be 30 cents extra.
So you’re standing in line for your morning coffee. Latte? That will be $3.50. Unless you have a penis in which case your latte will cost you $3.80.
That’s what happened when the YWCA in New Zealand came up with an innovative way to highlight the pay gap between men and women: if a guy earns more for doing the same job as a woman, why shouldn’t he pay more for drinking the same coffee?
According to news reports from NZ:
Men were charged 10% more for coffees at a cart parked on Victoria University’s law campus in Wellington yesterday morning. While a long black or a flat white cost women $3.50 and $4 respectively, men had to fork out $3.80 and $4.40.
The 10% price difference is based on this: women in New Zealand get paid on average 10% less than men do. Meaning the price of the coffee was designed to highlight the gender pay gape.
In Australia, women earn 80c for every dollar a man earns over a lifetime. Fair? Not so much. And it can be a difficult issue to get men interested in, which is why the idea of a coffee-gender index is such an intriguing one.
From Stuff.co.nz:
Organiser Lisa Fedyszyn said she wanted men to understand the issue and be just as outraged as women were, ”if the percentage isn’t zero then it’s not fair.”
Ms Fedyszyn said the coffee cart had also featured in Auckland, where many men had resorted to getting their wives or girlfriends to buy their coffees for them.
Pay Equity Challenge Coalition spokesperson Angela McLean said the campaign was timely, because there were new figures showing the gender gap had widened from 12.85 per cent in September last year to 14.18 per cent at the same time this year.
Interesting idea – imagine if everything we bought had a different price tag depending on what you had in your pants.
What do you think of this idea? Do you believe it would rectify the pay gap?
Comments
123 Comments so far
Imagine how much the coffee would cost if they found out that you are Australian.
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wat a creative and awesome idea!
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Aww man I’m an unemployed arts student. That .30c is literally a quarter of my dinner (noodles).
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Dude, you’re getting your dinner from the wrong place. I can get ramen for 50c. Booyah.
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So MM staff, time to ask Mia for a 20% pay increase, how can she possibly say no.
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We live in a market driven world. If you return X to a company, ask for what you are worth. You are either worth it or not based on ROI, business doesnt care if men, women or aliens do the work, it is the profit and value you bring to the table.
If women dont have the confidence to argue their worth, why penalise men for that.
Just harden up, work you arse off, return value to your employer, then ask your price. Simple really. Stop always trying to blame others for your own achievment, or lack of.
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Hm, yes, it certainly sounds simple when you put it like that – it must be the women who aren’t hard enough, aren’t working their arses off or making cash for their employers, or asking for more pay after all!
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sorry, it is that simple.
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If womenkind had only known these simple things were the only obstacles in our way – we could have spared ourselves those endless centuries of lazing around in oblivion, blaming others for our lack of opportunities.
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So have I been banned, because only one comment I have made in the last 10 or so attempts has been approved?
Seems to me like a certain human filter doesn’t want to listen to a a reasoned counter argument
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Do the stats cover factors such as how many overtime hours are worked by men and female in the same role? As a female I have never personally encountered unequal pay compared to men. I do know for a fact however that my salary is more than my female colleagues who would decribe their role as idenitical to mine. The difference is that I work at least 8 extra hours overtime to them every week and am a more profitable staff member. My female collegues are all mothers who cannot commit to the same workload that I do. I imagine this scenario would be very common in the professional services industry and this would explain why men earn more – and I believe, deservedly so. If we arrange our family relationships on this common model where the mother is responsible for childcare pickups/after school care, whilst the father is able to work overtime and therefore be more valuable to his employer then for salary based positions (i.e., not paid by the hour) we should expect men to earn more.
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Mamamia – where’d my comment go? I edited it to fix up an error and it disappeared…. I was giving Jamila a big hand for a stellar effort on the Hack last night too!
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Hi Miss Finance
Sometimes if you’re editing while on of our mods is approving we can lose you to the never-never and that seems to have happened.
Sounds like such a wonderful comment though *winks* So you should definitely re-post it if you have the time. Sorry we’ve messed you round!
xx
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No trouble, it appeared below straight after I wrote this! You were great on JJJ last night by the way, love it!
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The pay gap is a myth. there is no evidence for it cited other than several terrible studies in which the factors which differentiate men from women were actually assigned specific values from the people making the studies.
Very scientifical indeed!
The fact is the original idea of the pay gap was based on average pay over a year between men and women and did not count hours worked which give men an advantage if you want to call it that, because men work longer weeks and are prepared to do more unpaid overtime.
These loose studies which are cited refuse to cite pay differences between WOMAN. Have a think about that for a second. They will not show the fact that women do not earn the same as each other, because of variables that men dominate like preparedness to travel, unpaid overtime and longevity at single occupations can sometimes occur between individual women.
The truth is men chase higher position because of two reasons the are more resonant than in women’s experiences.
1. Partner selection. In order for a man to meet a mate, he is more likely to need a higher income than the other way around, therefor is cognizant of earning more money in higher positions.
2. Men are more likely to be the sole provider in a relationship and thereby they will be under more pressure to obtain more money and higher positions.
The wage gap myth flies in the face of logic, because businesses will simply not hire men to do the job when they could hire women to increase profit margins.
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So, there’s no wage gap then, no discrimination – and it’s a myth. And all the studies on it are in fact erroneous?
Come on FHB, I think we can at least agree on that one point as our common ground.
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Guest – Yes. If anyone values scientific scrutiny I urge them to actually read the studies and evaluate the methodology with an unbiased mind.
Unfortunately, once you look at the studies that do find a wage gap, hours worked is the largest contributing factor.
When you have studies that show the same hours worked, what they do is assign factored values to the small differences and variables in men and women’s experiences.
Any guesses as to which variables they shrink?
Any guesses as to which one’s they inflate?
I mean as far as dishonesty goes it couldn’t be more blatant, but the real closer in the argument is their studies show woman earn more than other women when they use the same variables…but they never publish these.
The studies that find men and women earn the same also find younger women out earn younger men. Go figure?
Probably some value they bring, but not discriminatory either way.
What these studies show is if you go looking to prove something and and you ignore variables or deliberately change them, you can publish any findings you like to suit your argument, but it goes against decent logic that anyone would hire males if women could do the same job cheaper.
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Not true. The ABS statistics for one, claim they do not count part-time and overtime in their figures, just full-time weekly wages.
Why would the ABS shrink or inflate or otherwise alter their numbers in support of a gender pay gap? To my understanding, their primary role is to provide accurate statistics for people to get a realistic picture of how things are running.
If you are questioning the existence of a genuine gender pay gap because you think the statistics are skewed, when this gap is pretty much the one established fact in this whole discussion, then I’m not really sure where this can go..
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The hours in this study show no correlation – I’ve been reading it…over and over.
There is zero evidence anywhere that men are paid more for the exact same job when you take into account all contributing factors. This study you cite merely shows gross pay, not an equal representation of hours worked.
Did you know in Korea they believe in fan death?
They believe if you sleep with a fan on it will kill you, but we know that is absurd right? Not when you are brought up believing something.
The original citation of the pay gap was based on gross hours, so simply men worked longer thusly earning more. Again there is no study that holds up to critical analysis and this myth has been debunked on several leading, respectable organizations.
This study doesn’t minimize anything because it only shows raw data. What ever could an organization set up and pay it’s members exclusively to find problems do?
All third party research shows no pay gap due to discrimination when all factors are considered.
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I suppose it’s only fair to pay 30 cents more for a coffee, after all, women pay 80 bucks for a haircut that costs a bloke 20.
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I wonder if any women have tried going to a mens barber and asking for the same sort of haircut for the same price?
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I just go to Just Cuts, they charge everyone the same.
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Jamila – as this is a somewhat related article, I have to say that you were awesome on the Hack last night. Really funny, eloquent, informed and reasonable. Much better than the other guests (and even the presenter!). It was a pleasure to listen to.
On that note – I’d love to see an article here on Mamamia about men coping with a higher-earning female partner (if it hasn’t already been done?), it was fascinating listening to the experiences of the guys that phoned in last night. I sat in my car for 10 minutes after I got home just to listen to it. I too am the higher earner in my relationship, I like to think my boyfriend doesn’t have an issue with it but do wonder what will happen when or if we have kids…
Regarding this article… a lot of people have commented saying they don’t believe that women earn less because “I don’t where I work”.. well, that is the case at some places I’ve worked too but studies have shown that it’s true and that it is NOT always because women take time off work to have babies. Rather than argue the point why not try consider ways to fix it??
I personally am a big advocate for better paid paternity leave laws, if men have the same opportunities as women to take time off from work to look after kids then it’d benefit both sexes.
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n article here on Mamamia about men coping with a higher-earning female partner
That would be awesome, especially to get the perspective of a few men. I know my partner prefers that he earns more. Each time I’ve almost caught up with him, he jumps ahead a little bit more
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They discussed it briefly last night on JJJ, it was really interesting… one guy was very supportive of his higher earning partner and found it quite motivating himself but admitted he has some insecurities at the start of the relationship.. another guy phoned in and basically said he was cool with it so long as he was smarter than his girlfriend. It was quite interesting and very insightful, I’d love to more hear about it from other couples.
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I’d love to see an article discussing some of the suggestions for addressing the pay inequities. Even this article is asking the NZ govt to own up to the problem, but what are the options for the governments?
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Many of my female friends earn more than their partners and their partners have taken leave to look after the kids.
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In the 2009-2010 financial year there were 111 workplace deaths in Australia.
95% of them were men.
Start engaging in dangerous occupations where higher wages are paid and you might come somewhere close to deserving “equal pay”
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Hahaha – I work in Finance, the men where I work earn on average more than the women…. pretty sure their jobs aren’t any more dangerous than mine!
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Of course one person in one job in one industry will make all the difference.
What a silly comment.
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The point is that wages are unequal across all industries, the fact that some men may work in more dangerous occupations in some industries is totally irrelevant.
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It’s not irrelevent at all. The high paying industries are male dominated. Go figure.
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You’re making no sense.
If, within the Finance industry, men are paid more on average how is it A) fair? and B) anything to do with men who work in dangerous industries?
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Miss Finance,
You’ll not get an argument from me about two people doing equal jobs not getting the same pay. It’s just wrong.
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“one person in one job in one industry ”
Yeah, because that’s all the finance industry consists of – one person.
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Ummm Anon – I’m pretty sure there are thousands of women who work in finance – in the same roles as men – earning less
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And I’m damn sure that there are only about 3% of the workforce in the construction, mining and agricultural industries that are women, which is where men have the highest rates of death and injury.
In 5 years to 2011 there were 0 deaths in the finance and insurance industries, in the same time the male dominated industries had about 700. These industries are hard on the body, hours are long in sometimes horrible conditions, but the pay is good. The 3% of women who participate in these industries earn the same money as the men as the worker’s wages are dictated by quite strict EBA’s and the like.
So stop complaining that the soft occupations like finance, where you can pop out at lunch time for a latte don’t pay the same, and come and join my industry and earn the same as the blokes.
Yeah, you’ll cop some stick from the boys, but the boys are pretty harsh on each other too. That’s the nature of the beast, but you will get exactly the same money as the guys do.
At the moment I have 2 truck drivers on my site. Both are able to operate other machinery, and both worked 57 hours last week. Both are employed and are paid under the same EBA and both were paid $1,965 (gross) last week.
I’d like more women in the Construction industry, particularly as engineers, but if women aren’t doing engineering at University they can’t be getting the jobs now can they? My graduate engineers earn $55,000 a year, plus super, plus a car plus a fuel card. It doesn’t matter what gender they are they get the same. After that they get paid more with promotions and seniority but it’s still the same.
So I challenge all women to get off their backsides and do something proactive about getting more money, by getting the training that will get them into these industries where the good money can be earned with very little schooling.
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Let me get this straight.
Because I can have lattes at my cushy Finance job I should just accept the fact that a man who does the exact same thing as I do is often paid more?
The reason being because your job is harder than mine…?
What?!
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Miss Finance, you need to stop! For your own sanity!
I’m pretty sure you’re arguing with someone who I was arguing with over the weekend as to the ‘fact’ that all men die earlier than women because some of them work in industries where men are in fatal accidents. You’ll be going around the mulberry bush in the same way that I was.
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Zepgirl – you’re so right… I don’t know why I bother sometimes!!
I give up, I’m going out for a latte.
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Just so long as you understand that your latte is causing men in dangerous jobs to die…
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Youre a persistent one aren’t you? Just because you’re not in a male dominated job doesn’t mean you can pop down to the cafe for a latte. Nurses can go for an 8 hour shift without getting to go to the loo, or have their meal break.
My hubby works in a male dominated trade and on nights, often ends up watching movies with his colleagues, cos its, umm, so hard.
I wonder how often non compliance with wh&s regs is partly to blame for industrial accidents.
Oh btw, my female dominated uni qualified job pays more per hour than his well paid trade. How about you come into your local hospital one night and work the wards for a while?
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Don’t take my comment the wrong way, I’m pretty sure you have.
If women are doing the same job as men then of course they should get the same pay.
If the woman is more productive, they should get more.
My argument is based on the broad statement that women across the entire workforce earn less than the men across the entire workforce. It’s not about individual industries or workplaces.
If there was an equal spread of men and women across all industires and there wqas a difference in pay, then there’s a whole other argument, but while men and women do different types of jobs (generally), then there’s always going to be a difference in pay.
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Miss Finance,
What I’m saying is that you, and about 480,000 other women should join the construction industry and there will be less of a difference between men and women in overall earnings. It means that you’ll have to work in horrible conditions and long hours. You may work 60 hours a week but according the Bereau of Statistics most women don’t come close to that, but men in my industry do, as they do in mining and other male dominated industries.
The article is about the difference in pay between ALL men and ALL women across ALL industries. You’re being obtuse by only quoting what you earn compared to the bloke at the desk next to you. I’m looking at the differences in the type of jobs between men and women and giving you a bloody good reason why the average bloke earns more than the average woman. It’s not the only reason, but it’s a big one.
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just as pointless as stating that men deserve more money in every industry because they are more predominant in some.
how does that affect equal pay… if a woman was doing that job she should get payed the same. that’s the point..
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I have never, nor will I ever, disagree that women in an equal position with equal capabilities should get anything other than equal pay.
It would be like me saying that I should accept less because of my aboriginal background. It’s absurd.
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You don’t think women engage in high risk workplace situations? Or are we talking like on the military frontlines where women have not been “allowed” to tread?
Do some research – unequal pay happens across the board, it has nothing to do with dangerous occupations. If men are well qualified and better placed for a position of high pay – then go for it. But if a woman is his counterpart and is paid less, this is the issue.
Your comment just adds to the gender inequality we speak of. Your comment, in fact, suggests the level of obnoxious sexism behind the very issue.
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Quick, play the sexism card, if all else fails you can always use it as a fall back.
I did do the reasearch. Just look at Worksafe Australia and death rates and you’ll find it.
Men are over represented in the occupations that lead to workplace deaths and injuries, I’m not making it up.
This is directly from Worksafe Australia.
All notified fatalities
> In 2009–10 there were 124 notified workrelated
fatalities — 111 workers and
13 bystanders.
> Most fatalities were of men — 115 in total.
There were 9 fatalities of women (including
4 bystanders).
> Five industries accounted for seven out of
every ten notified work-related fatalities —
23% of fatalities occurred at a workplace
primarily engaged in Agriculture, forestry
& fishing; 17% in Construction; 13% in
Manufacturing; 11% in Transport & storage;
and 5% in Mining.
These are the industries that women do not participate in yet they employ hundreds of thousands of men. Work it out, if you don’t participate you don’t get the money.
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Um equal pay across all industries actually has *nothing* to do with the level of danger posed in the job and whether you’re going to die…
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Yes, thank you!
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You just don’t get it, do you, darling. Just keep repeating the stats and missing the entire point of the topic under discussion here today. When you have a point that makes sense we will give you many, many thumbs-up! And a payrise.
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Statistically, it’s safer to work as a frontline soldier than in the construction industry.
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Only in times of peace….
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No, in the ten years Australia has been involved in the Iraq/Afghanistan wars 39 soldiers have died. The death rates per 100,000 persons are higher in the construction/mining industries where about 5 people die a year.
I’m not making it up, I’m quoting BoS and Worksafe Australia numbers.
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That should have been 50 a year, not 5.
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It is not a matter of “deserving”equal pay It is a matter of employers being willing to employ women in these dangerous occupations. It is a matter of men moving up the ladder faster than women. The last job I worked in was in vineyards. Many of the women were rural and had plenty of machinery and outdoor work experience, some had been shed hands and harvester operators. Yet the cutting and picking teams were ALWAYS supervised by men who earned a higher rate of pay. It is not just about figures, it is about attitude.
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I did – still do
And there was still a pay gap.
Not to mention the fact that in these occupations women have to work twice as hard to prove they are half as good.
Not to mention having to put up with knuckle draggers who think it is their right to ask you inappropriate questions about your body or your private life, constant sexual connotations to everything, if you talk to anyone then the next day you are apparently sleeping with them.
If anything we should be getting additional “danger money” for putting up with that sort of rubbish.
But what can I say – this line of work is in my blood. I love it, couldn’t imagine doing anything else.
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Buggles, I’m aware that women face enormous hurdles in the knuckle dragging industries that I’m talking about. I don’t like it and I do everything I can to ensure that discriminatory actions are eliminated.
I’m an Engineer with an Aboriginal background so I know what it’s like to be discriminated against in the workforce, and it’s not right. That doesn’t mean that women, or anyone who could be discriminated against should not have a go. Hiding behind a rock and saying “it’s too hard” will not change a damn thing.
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No one is hiding behind a rock but some people are hiding behind the ubiquitous “anon”. Statistics mentioned in these comments and those derived from
http://www.eowa.gov.au/Information_Centres/Resource_Centre/Statistics/2012-08-17_Gender_Pay_Gap_factsheet.pdf
show there is a gender pay gap and there is no getting around that. Accusations such as your “hiding behind a rock” are counterproductive. How about thinking about mentoring young aboriginal women so they see that engineering is a viable career choice?
As a person involved in the transport industry, I see your point about industry deaths but it does not apply to this discussion, at least deaths in your workplace are investigated as deaths in the workplace and not, as happens in transport, as road deaths. At least findings and changes result from investigations into accidents and deaths in your workplace, but that is not relevant here, either.
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Again statistics that show men who work longer weeks earn more money.
They are aggregate statistics. People in white cars also have more accidents.
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I never was and never will be one to “hide behind a rock and say its all too hard”. I have the scars, respect and reputation to prove it.
In what could be unpopular I may be developing a slight intellectual crush on you – I think we could have an interesting debate/discussion on this issue and the industry as a whole.
A couple of points:
1. Basing your arguement solely on the risks or dangers of the job is flawed. If you were to look at the incidences of injuries/death in these industries on a per head basis for each of the genders you may find that for men it is still higher because they take more risks. This eliminates the men’s jobs are more dangerous so we should get more side of the argument because you are comparing apples with apples. Same industry – one variable (gender). Backed up by the fact that it is becoming industry preference to employee female truck drivers, where possible, because they take more care/less risks therefore having less accidents and reducing downtime due to vehicle repairs.
2. It appears we work in the same industry. Based on your $55k for graduates comment, I am guessing you are over east. If this is the case I am probably earning more than you (or at least more than you were at an equivalent stage in your career). Does this mean my job is more hazardous than yours or does it just mean that I am in an area where the supply/demand for my profession is higher?
Remember correlation does not equal causation.
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My mother worked in HR (doing payroll and wh&s) in a male dominated workplace. I know it’s only one person’s experience, but she found when processing claims that a fair proportion o industrial accidents were due to the men not following the reccommended wh&s guidelines.
My husband’s one significant industrial accident was partly his own fault and he reports (3rd hand I know) that he is not the only one in his mostly male workplace to take risks he shouldn’t.
I’d love to see the stats behind the stats, so to speak.
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Faybian,
I agree completely that workplace accidents usually happen when the rules and regs aren’t followed. A simple example is working from ladders. It’s not allowed, yet lots of people still do it because it’s convenient to simply put up a ladder rather than erect the mobile scaffold that’s lying on the ground. Then the person falls off and cracks their skull. It’s not rocket science but still remarkably difficult to prevent. I’m sure that in your work as a nurse you’ve lifted a patient on your own when you shouldn’t have.
But that is beside the point.
Guys dominate the construction industry, where the dumbest illiterate can earn a hundred grand a year. Women dominate nursing, where the average wage is what? 70 thousand? There is an obvious discrepancy on what men and women earn. Of course there will be a difference between overall pay when there is a big difference between the industries that man and women work in.
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hang on – 95% of workplace deaths were men. That doesn’t necessarily mean they work in more dangerous occupations – just that they make up the greater proportion of those who die in the workplace. Perhaps they’re just more dangerous workers and women comply with regulations?
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How many of those deaths could be attributed to the fact that men are more likely to engage in risk taking behaviour? And how many of those deaths were in inherently dangerous industries? I think you will find that many of them were completely preventable accidents in otherwise fairly safe jobs- not because they were working in salt mines.
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Pretty sure none of those were in law firms, medicine, CEOs of corporations, government managerial roles. I understand your point but there’s a whole range of industries where pay has nothing to do with danger.
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Women in prostitution have a 40% higher mortality rate than other women, not to mention how many get physically and sexually assaulted during the course of their work. But I guess you’re only talking about professions that don’t almost exclusively cater to male need?
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I love this idea. It’s not supposed to be about “fairness” it’s about education, and it works – we are reading and talking about it!
Someone I know is an editor in the tv business. He knows for a fact he is paid more than his female equal- she doesn’t know though.
It happens everywhere, let’s not be naive. I love this stunt because we are all discussing it.
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Whilst I understand the reasoning behind this stunt, it was based on the generalisation that ALL of the male customers were earning more than the female customers ALL of the time.
When I think about it, is there just the hint of presumption that all of the customers work in the same industry regardless of gender ?
Yes, I think that the organisers of the stunt made too many generalisations.
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Bradley – I think you’re confused. The stunt wasn’t based on an assumption that ALL male customers were earning more than the female. It was likely done to prompt exactly the kind of debate and discussion that was done here. It’s not a harebrained scheme to make coffee purchase cost more equitable.
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Agreed – Bradley, a better analogy is that this was only ONE coffee cart. So all males may have had to pay more at this one cart, just like in the workforce not all females are always paid less in every job. But for the workplaces that do pay women less, it happens to all women in that workplace – just like charging a higher amount for all men to buy a coffee at one cart.
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Well….I suppose that there IS ten per cent more male !
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Actually, it’s 1%.
During WW2, when pilots were burnt in their planes, they broke down the various body parts to easily identify how much of their body was burnt. A leg was 10%, an arm 5%, but the poor old fella only scored 1%.
Bit sad really.
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maybe that’s just because they were scared
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That’s the method of calculating how much percentage of burns we use today. It determines how much it will effect other parts of the body as well as the skin.
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I’m all for equality, and I understand that over a lifetime women earn less because they tend to take time off to care for families etc. But what jobs out there actually have unequal pay. I know many get paid to an award, so gender wouldn’t come into it. I work at a university and I know that men and women on the same pay grade get paid the same. I would imagine that there is some inequality in high business areas where pay is by negotiation, where women tend to be less ruthless. But i imagine that’s an exception rather than the rule.
What jobs out there actually pay women less when a man and a woman are doing the exact same job?
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I worked in Market Research. Our pay was not transparent, so I don’t know what the men earned, but I heard rumours, and it was significantly more than me!
There are many salary surveys done and they always show men earn more than women.
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I’m 99% sure that even though Teaching is a predominantly female based profession, men get paid more. My mum has been in the teaching biz for about 30 years now and has mentioned it a few times that men holding her same position get paid more than she does. Not sure if this is across the board though.
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Does your mother work for a private school?
In state and Catholic schools all teachers get paid the same based on how long they have been teaching, a teacher who has worked for 30 yrs gets the top pay grade regardless of sex.
Private schools can pay whatever pay rate they want.
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I understand you are correct, however my sister teaches in the Catholic system and has been turned down for about 4 promotions now. Several of these were to men with less experience than her.
While I understand that neither my sister or I can prove that she was a better candidate than the men (or anyone else that beat her to the position), the fact is that the proportion of males in teaching is grossly skewed to the principal/assistant principal/HOD positions. Not many male teachers, particularly in primary, stay in full time in the classroom for long if they are looking to get out – plenty of women do.
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No, she’s public.
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Here is a link to some statistics on gender earnings by industry, occupation, age, and part-time:
http://www.eowa.gov.au/Information_Centres/Resource_Centre/Statistics/Gender_Pay_Gap_Fact_Sheet_May_2012.pdf
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That’s interesting data. And it’s not that I don’t believe that there are pay inequalities, but I believe that data is flawed.
They seem to lump categories together. Like managers. There’s managers of say retail stores and managers of multinational companies. I imagine the pay difference here would be quite significant and one the gender imbalance would be significant too.
The report states that the gender pay gap stands at 17.4%. But this also doesn’t take into account that a lot of men would be paid more because they stayed in employment and rose to more senior positions over women who took time out to have families.
I certainly don’t believe that pay imbalances aren’t there in some industries, it just often seems like the data is a bit scewed.
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Yes, it does take those things into account in some of the follow-up discussion papers. Basically it tries to identify all the reasons why a gender pay gap may exist, and how much of it can be explained by things like the ones you mentioned, and how much of it can’t, which is what we all need to know for things to change.
Here is a follow up fact or fiction sheet which includes some of your doubts:
http://www.eowa.gov.au/Pay_Equity/Pay_Equity_Information/20120829_EPD_GenderPayGapFactorFiction.pdf
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All that information sheet does is demonstrate how flawed the results are.
They speak of a pay difference between men and women in the construction industry. What they don’t say is that women tend to be office workers doing 40 hours, and guys are the actual construction workers doing 50 to 60 hours a week.
It certainly does not compare individual jobs that are held by both men and women, but that wouldn’t suit their argument one little bit.
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The results are based both on industry, then occupation (check the first link) – statistics are from the ABS.
It compares individual jobs held by both men and women – you are wrong. Check again.
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One more thing anon, you are obviously a man – because only a man would try to argue there is no gender pay gap. Unless you are a fairly sheltered woman who hasn’t much life experience, and works for the public service or somewhere with a clear pay structure.
Any woman who knows the world knows that women are still generally earning less. They have personal experience to back it up or they have friends or acquaintances who have.
So why you bother to argue the statistics shows you have limited experience of life for many working women in the real world.
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Hi I’m a doctor of medicine. Male doctors earn more per hour than female doctors on average. The MBS pays areas of medicine that are popular with men more (surgery, procedures) they pay long complex consultations less (paediatrics, psych, aboriginal health, GPs, physicians). Even within the same speciality men earn more per hour in private.
University is not the real world!
The stunt is very clever.
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There is a simple solution to this problem Rosie, practice the same type of medecine and you’ll get the same as the men. There is nothing in the MBS legislation that says that women must be paid less than men. If there is a discrepancy it’s because women choose the lower paying areas.
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In radio, the men get paid more than the women (eg Matt vs Jo, Kyle vs Jackie). Traditionally, men were usually seen as the backbone of the show and the women the filler, and the pay reflected that value system – but with awesome people like Monty and Chrissie Swan around hopefully that starts to change.
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This is a GREAT idea, love it!
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It will be difficult to close the pay gap unless we move to a model like France where it is seen as quite normal to put your young kids in care and dive back in to the workforce.
Here’s what women can do to make a difference to their pay personally:
Focus on careers where you’ll be a fee earner, not a fee burner. That is; generate income for your employer and you’ll always be treated well and paid better. That is, choose sales over admin. Be a trader rather than a bookkeeper. Be an exploration geologist over a mine truck driver.
If you don’t earn revenue for your company, work out how to save the company money. If you’re a cleaner, find a cheaper supplier of cleaning consumables.
Gauge your performance on the value you create for a company, not whether you turn up on time or the rate that you can churn through paperwork.
If your performance is better than your team’s, then hit your boss for a raise and more responsibility. When you go for a raise, describe your performance in monetary or percentage terms. I earned x for the company this financial year and my contribution was y% of the team’s. Don’t sit and wait for your boss to offer you a raise, get in their face about it.
If you want to be paid more then be ambitious, accept more responsibility (and stress), accept more risk (be in a job where your performance will rapidly determine your tenure of employment), minimise your parental leave (therefore maximise your experience) and be forthright in asking for what you want as long as you have outdone KPI expectations.
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The pay discrepancy is about women getting paid less to do the -same- work as men, not a woman in admin getting paid less than a man in sales. Also, all of the solutions you have suggested are based on gendered assumptions of success – i.e. profit building through competition and aggression rather than profit building through team building and relationships
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I wrote this out because I think that people stuck in lower pay brackets aren’t always aware what is keeping their pay down.
I don’t think that these are gendered notions. Women are as competitive as all hell and performing well in your job doesn’t require aggression, just application. Women compete hard for academic results (amongst many other things), why should/would they be less competitive in the workforce? I.
Businesses must compete for market share and their success is measured in profit (money), there’s no getting around that. Employees will always be ranked by their performance, whether working in the context of a team or as an individual. Good relationships and networking will make for success, so if women are superior here, then they should leverage these skills for more pay.
Every living creature on this planet competes to live; civilization can ameliorate the savagery of outcome, but never eradicate the necessity to strive.
It is just not in a company’s interest to pay any employee more unless their performance justifies a raise and their manager thinks that they may lose the employee to a competitor unless they pay them more. You get a manager thinking about your value to them by asking for a raise.
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Have a look into how the numbers are derived. I think you will find that women are paid less for the same job- those factors are controlled for. Otherwise all your points would be valid. This is a common misconception.
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I was out to describe how you make a difference to your pay individually, not argue against the stats regarding pay inequity.
I don’t think enough women think about their jobs in terms of their monetary value to their employer. I can guarantee that most managers and employers (possible exception being govt.) do think in exactly those terms in determining rates of pay. A company gives up some profit in order to pay staff extra, they’ll only do so if the employee creates sufficient value for them.
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I agree with you, and I think that women are far more reticent to talk themselves up about their achievements (in any realm, but will do it in stuff like parenting!) and call employers to account. I really liked your suggestions, Anon.
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I’ve got a great complimenting idea, ban women from seeing their kids 10% of the week to underscore the longer work hours, longer average commute and lower work place / family flexibility offered to men.
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I think that issue is seperate to the gender pay gap issue but it’s still relevant. I actually earn more than my hubby. I’m currently on maternity leave & when I go back to work next year I had been planning on going full time with hubby going part time. However, his workplace just made it far too difficult so I’ll be going part time after all. It’s just not the best outcome for our family & is a case of not being offered family friendly workplace flexibility because it was a man seeking it.
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Its’ directly relevant because women will end up having less experience and therefore fall behind in promotions and payrises (when the latter occurs it appears as if they are in the same job but are being paid less, but experience is being taken into account).
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exactly this.
As a man i am currently trying to negotiate 1 afternoon a week to pick up a child from school. This had had to go through many layers of management and is dragging on and on.
My wife was able to negotiate her time off for the pick up very easily becuase she is the mother, as a father i have been told ‘why cant your wife do it’ and ‘none of the other men here do that’, even though there are some women who have flexible hours for family reasons.
This is part of a wider gender equality issue that needs addressing, the companies who are the first to address it will reap the rewards, personally i am now looking for a more modern, flexible company to take my experience and skill set to.
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Not all mothers would be hysterically upset if they were banned from seeing their lovely little cherubs for 10% of the week. Helloooo Saturday night with the girls! Relax, I’m joking (note- I’m not joking).
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You mean I will be legally forced to spend 10% of my time without my children? Oh no, please don’t give me time to myself. Lol.
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wow, creative guys, reading how men spend more time working and commuting, and seeing that translate into women having time to go drinking on a Saturday night. Exactly the same, sure.
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I’d be happy enough to spend extra time away from my kids, or on a train if I knew they would be well cared for. I used to read on a train, not frantically drive home, preparing menus, or a shopping list, or to do list in my head.
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Really? What if that 10% of the time was their first day of school? Or their annual christmas play? Or when they’re getting an award at school and are desperate for you to attend? Or when they break their arm and need to go to hospital?
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I don’t understand. I hear of this pay gap all the time, yet am yet to see it. I’ve always been paid equal to the women in my workplace for the same role. The only pay differences are in grades/anniversary, and they are the same no matter your gender. So where is this disparity in pay I hear of?
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Me. I entered a company at the same time as my boyfriend and another male friend. Pays were Offered. Mine was about 12% less. I said nothing as I wanted a job. Same graduation day, I had a bit more experience.
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Which industry do you work in, Lish ?
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The way I understand it is in addition to women getting paid less week to week, if you take time off for maternity leave or whatever, that counts against you with regard to gradings – so if your grade goes up each year, for example, but you take a year off on mat leave, that’s a year that you’re behind and won’t necessarily make up.
Women are traditionally nowhere near as confident to ask for pay rises and talk themselves up where men traditionally don’t have such an issue with it. I’ve never been in a position to feel the need to do this, so haven’t experienced it myself – every job I’ve done was pretty strictly graded and the pay was what the pay was, and everyone got the same at the same level.
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I’ve only ever worked in the private sector where salaries are more or less up to the discretion of management. Whilst I am lucky to be paid very well I would say on average at my current job the men are paid better.
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Maybe they are better at the job than you or work more hours
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I’m not referring to myself actually, I happen to get paid better than most blokes I know. In regards to the women I do know who are paid less, it has nothing to do with their ability nor the hours they work.
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Being paid less to do the same job is clearly wrong. This article only refers to an ‘average’ or over a life time.
What are some specific examples of a gender pay gap for the same job?
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I am paid less than some people in my office with the same title, and significantly more than others. In my line of work what matters is how many clients you bring in and your level of compensation very much depends on how ballsy you are eg. I’ve demanded a 40% salary increase and been ready to quit on the spot if I didn’t get it, I’ve seen others hesitantly stammer that they think a 5% bump would maybe sorta kinda be fair and be turned down.
If you have two public servants who started within weeks of each other and who both have the same exact responsibility but there’s a significant pay gap, that’s an issue. If a supermarket was paying it’s male cashiers a dollar more than it’s female ones, that’s an issue. But there are so many factors involved in why some people earn more than others. Even if you do the exact same job, one person may have skills or connections that make them more valuable eg. even in a basic paper pushing job, an employer may be keen to retain a person with multiple languages and so pay them more. You may have the same title as someone else, but that doesn’t always translate to the same level of experience or talent. In most cases it’s likely the person getting paid more is just better at negotiating raises.
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This is actually a very good question. I’ve worked in four industries and in each instance, gender did not determine your rate of pay. Generally, the longer you’ve been there has meant a larger pay packet, indicating that experience has it’s rewards.
Can you please give some specific examples and name the industries that wage discriminate ?
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Earnings by industry
In May 2012, the financial and insurance sector had the highest gender pay gap (32.7 %), followed by the health care and social assistance sector (31.3 %), professional scientific and technical services sector (27.1 %) and the rental, hiring and real estate services sector (24.8 %). Industries with the lowest gender pay gap were the public administration and safety (8.1 %), retail trade (8.5 %), and accommodation and food services (8.5%) sectors (Table 2).
Over the year to May 2012, the gap grew considerably in transport, postal and warehousing industry (+7.0 pp), as well as the retail sector (+2.6 pp). The pay gap has improved markedly for three industries: accommodation and food (-3.8 pp), arts and recreation (-3.0 pp) and rental, hiring and real estate services (-2.7 pp).
http://www.eowa.gov.au/Information_Centres/Resource_Centre/Statistics/2012-08-17_Gender_Pay_Gap_factsheet.pdf
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I worked as a graduate chemical engineer with a large consulting firm for three years when I discovered at christmas drinks that the guy who sat next to me doing the same job, with the same qualifications, same responsibilities, same years of experience etc etc (only difference was that I was better at my job and he had to ask me technical questions all the time) was getting paid over $5k more than me. When i asked my boss why he said that we should be on the same pay rate, he checked with HR and then they increased my pay to match. Then a few weeks later I found out that they increased my colleague’s pay at the same time by $3k (luckily we were friends so he told me) so he was still earning more than me.
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Engineering in Local Government in SE Queensland, despite the whole EEO/Employer of Choice for women banner they championed, blah blah blah. I was paid 30% less than my male colleagues of the same standing, worked ridiculous overtime hours with no overtime pay, and then when I complained to HR was told that my work performance/ technical experience was not at the same level as my counterparts and hence the divide. Same degree, more years of work experience, technical excellence and my expertise is not valid??!! Needless to say, I left after the worst 2.5 years of my life.
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Engineering is getting a bad rep here isn’t it.
I’m also an engineer. My previous job was in mining. Started at the same mine site at the same time with two guys that I graduated with from the same uni, with the same qualifications. (Can’t get much more even playing field than that).
At the end of five years one of the guys was underperforming and was being performance managed, myself and the other guy were about to be promoted. At this stage I had worked in multiple areas of the plant, had several letters of commendation on my file and had been in an acting seniors role.
About 6 months before I left I found out that I was earning $3k more than the one being performance managed and $15k less than the one that was about to get promoted with me.
How do they get away with it… put a clause in your contract saying that pay rates are confidential and it is against company policy for employees to disclose how much they earn.
One of the many reasons that is now my previous job.
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I honestly don’t know, nor care, what other engineers in my company get paid, regardless of gender. We have starting salaries for graduates that are the same, then we have a range for each particular level. At a Project Manager level, we get $120k to $140k depending on the size of the project and ability. then we get an uplift for remote work so that base salary will jump to around $200k
Al I know from friends in HR is that all of us at this level are within the range. As for women being at the bottom end of the range I couldn’t say, nor do I care.
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Hi Buggles,
I am doing some research into pay gap and would love to chat. I am a magazine journo. Send me a mail rsquires@bauer-media.com.au when you can. Happy to hear from anyone else on the thread too!
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What a creative idea! Love it.
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