by NICHOLE DONOVAN
So I went on a date with a new guy.
It went well. I got dressed up and he fussed over where we ate, finally picking a restaurant with a warm, buzzy atmosphere. I laughed at his jokes and he laughed at mine.
Then the bill came.
Since neither of us announced we would pay, that piece of paper was left sitting there, sort of loitering aimlessly between us.
Then he grabbed the piece of paper and put it firmly under his glass. Good. Taking ownership. I thought.
“So how do you want to do this? Should we split the bill?”
Hang on. Where was the polite tango? There was meant to be a tango. I’d offer to pay. He’d insist on getting it. I’d try again, more tentatively this time, possibly doing The Reach for my wallet. He’d wave my hand away.
Isn’t that how it goes?
Look, I’m going to come right out and say it. I like a guy to pay on a first date. Even at a minimum, I expect him to offer, even if we ended up splitting the bill. And then it got worse.
Sensing my confusion, he rationalised by saying “…because I’m a firm believer in the Feminist movement, you know?”
He sat there looking at me, such a sensitive new age feminist guy, as though it was all supposed to make sense now.
This was the lowest point so far. Because was it really? Did he truly respect my independent womanhood so much that he wanted to tip his hat to equality and not pay? Or did he just, not want to pay.
I felt it was a pretty lame use of feminism, really.
After that, I knew the date was over. Not because I didn’t like him. I did. I do. Quite a bit. But if he liked me back he’d never suggest splitting the bill, right?”
Now, I get the contradiction here – I can’t have my feminism, eat it too and also expect someone else to pay for my dinner. I know that splitting the bill is the modern thing to do. And after the first date – and certainly in a relationship – I’m cool with it.
But what about chivalry? Isn’t it the same as liking it when a guy holds open a door for you? I’d be fascinated to hear what other MM readers think. Is everyone else a bill-splitter but me?
Nichole is a journalism student at the University of Technology Sydney and is an intern at Mamamia.com.au
Comments
302 Comments so far
ImO… I think the bill should be split for atleast first 3 dates. I mean, how does a man know the woman isn’t running game? Maybe, she has a slew of guys taking her out to dinner…
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A first date is only a first date for a reason. I went out with a man once who got drunk on the first date. Red flag. A man who doesn’t pay for a first date likewise raises a red flag — stingy, selfish, not that into me. It’s a known trade off that men seek looks, women seek stability/money. Even some species of male birds build elaborate art displays (material goods) and the females choose their partners based on this. Men are supposed to impress women, and this is how human males around the world do so — by showing they will be good providers. I went on a first date where the man not only ate most of my meal and insisted on “buying me desert” and then asked for separate checks. Needless to say, we never saw each other again. Anyway, every guy I’ve dated long term insisted on paying EVERY time we went out (few times per week). They would get insulted if I ever offered to pay. Thankfully I have yellow fever — in many Asian cultures, men even carry their partners handbag for them. Also, it’s common for the man to hand his entire paycheck to his wife and even do the cooking. In general though, most men prefer younger or more beautiful woman over older or plain ones. So as women we are simply choosing men a little differently — those whom show themselves to be more suitable providers are the top choices. I do have a problem though, recently having decided to start dating around before committing myself since i want to get married, ive found that men insist on elaborate dates and to pay, leaving me feeling very awkward at the end when i dont kiss or hold hands. Just happened today — thought we were doing a free activity, but ended up with 2 meals and a movie. This always happens and I still don’t know how to deal with it. I don’t kiss or hold hands until knowing I’m choosing a boyfriend. Well, anyway probably never going to come back to check comments, but different strokes for different folks. I’ve found that the more something cost, the more value we tend to place in it (ex $2000 pairs of shoes). When I started receiving mistreatment from my exs, I found that demanding they buy me this or that and we go for an expensive meal would suddenly make me more desirable and I’d be treated much better after they spent money on me. I was never raised to expect a man to pay, until 2 surrogate fathers came into my life. My mom was always a woman who believed money didn’t matter and never expected a man to take her out on dates unless they split the bill. I was shocked to find this out after she commented that every guy I date spends a fortune on me. Well, she ended up dating users who wanted a caretaker. Including my bio father who was abusive too. My surrogate fathers would spend fortunes on my mom and buy me gifts just because. My mom always felt/feels uncomfortable, but for me this really sent a powerful message. I think many of the male commentators on this article are a good show of the kinds of men who don’t think men should pay simply the first date — angry, bitter, probably poor. Most definitely not gentlemen. Btw, it’s women who think that mere chivalry is a sign of disrespect whom give feminists such a bad rep. Men and women are simply different. Lets be real, never heard of a man preferring flowers to a bj, and never heard of a woman preferring cullingitus to flowers. Men tend to like cars, electronics, shooting/fighting games. Women tend to like clothes shopping, “social” games, etc. studies on young kids have even concluded that we are simply different from our births! We will never be equal, and frankly any man who expects me to lug around a 100 pound box or in this case show he will be a good provider is not a winning man in my book.
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I would have thought that whoever did the asking out should be the one paying, at least the first time. Just so happens it is usually the man who asks the woman. And if the man should pay, what do gay men do?
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Obviously I am a minority, but then I don’t really claim to be a feminist. My partner paid for me on the first date (I offered to split the bill, but he likes to look after me) and I loved it. I like to be looked after, I like to be cared for. I can pay my own way, but I like to know that someone will look after me. I know that they are both contradictory statements, but humans are a contradiction.This particular dinner,(lLike some of the other commenters), I was a uni student and didn’t have much money, so I was extremely grateful. I had chosen the place for dinner though and chose a really cheap place so paying wasn’t a burden for either of us. I then bought the ice cream after. Even!
Since then, we have been pretty even with dinner dates. Or though now that we live together he pays 3/4 of the rent (I am still a uni student and would not be able to afford it without him looking after me).
Call me a 1950s housewife, I don’t mind. I love my life and being looked after by my partner
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As a feminist, I would want to split the bill. It sets the tone for equality. Why should one party pay due to ‘chivalry’ or to make you feel good? Golly, haven’t we moved past this?
Sharing food and generousity aside, I think this is incredibly outmoded…
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Right, this is what works for me.
“Hey so I’m going to be at (insert name of bar here) later on/next weekend, it’d be great to see oyu if you happened to be out and about”.
I’m letting her know that I’d like to see her again, but it’s not a “date” persay, so paying for drinks/dinner is not implied. It’s the “first date” without the label or expectation.
You see any guy who wants to buy a woman a drink within 5 minutes of meeting her is painting a picture “Hey, You’re very attractive and I don’t feel that I’m good enough to hang out with you so I’m going to buy you a drink in the hope that you’ll want to spend some more time with me”. It’s weak and frankly unattractive.
But in answer to your question, if I asked a woman out on a first date I would pay for the date. I just wouldn’t “date” anymone though. Thats what the “I’m going to be here, it’d be great to see you later on” scenario is for. It’s like a screening test to help avoid any disaster first date!
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It is so simple folks.
paying for dinner = how interested he is in you
if a man doesn’t want to impress you by paying for your dinner, he is probably not that interested in you, just in getting laid.
This is a way for women to ascertain which he is.
If a man really likes you he will go out of his way to impress.
Why would you start a relationship with any less?
signed Happily Married Feminist
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I think I’m a bit late to the party, but I’ll throw in my 2 cents worth. Two points
1) On mine and my boyfriend’s first date we went to the movies. I expected/hoped he would pay for the tickets (and then, to be fair, I’d pay for the popcorn). But when he went to the booth he only bought his ticket. One ticket. One. I was taken aback (and suddenly questioning whether this was indeed a romantic outing), but then forked out $12 to buy my own ticket (and we didn’t end up buying food, so it came out even). Anyway, that was over a year ago and we’re still very happily together. We tend to do the one-pays-tonight-the-other-pays-tomorrow thing, but I think that’s fair.
2) Honestly, I think my slightly hopeful expectation that this guy would pay for my share of the first date also arises from the fact that I wish I didn’t have to pay for anything ever! I don’t hate spending money, but I love saving it when I can!
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I’ve never resented paying for dinner until I read this article.
But then, I’ve never dated a girl that insists that I pay for her company.
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Its a sign on respect. If he asks me out I expect him to pay.
If I invite people over for dinner its a given I will cook and provide a meal and hospitality. It would be a little rude and weird if I invited people over and then said ‘ok how do you want to do this? You can bring the vegies and wine and I’ll provide the chicken and dessert’. Same thing here to me.
And the same if I asked a guy out I should pay.
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I wonder why females only expect a man to pay for them if there is the possibility of sex? I recall females saying that If a female is on a date with a man and is sure she won’t have sex with him then she will pay for herself so she does not feel obligated. Which means, if she will have sex with him then he can pay for it.
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In an established relationship, I don’t mind a date by date swap (ie I pay tonight, you pay next time) because bill-splitting is often a pain in the jacksie.
I do think that expecting a man to pay on the first date is pretty lame, and that this guy didn’t do anything wrong by asking to split.
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Entitlement.
That’s all this is. You want it and its traditionally been done this way, so you deserve it now. Its an example of women picking and choosing which gender roles and obligations should be kept and which should be discarded. You EXPECT a man to pay, purely because he is the man, regardless of if you earn double his income. Do you see where the resentment comes from? Do you see how feminism seems hypocritical in this circumstance? Women have been freed from past gender roles in many areas, but the majority of women still expect the man to be constrained in his role as provider, and paying for first dates is an example of that.
The worst is when this is rationalised as the woman’s company being worth whatever the man is paying. As if his time is worthless or his company is not entertaining to the woman either. Or people hide behind the ‘Whoever invited the other person pays’, knowing full well men do the asking 90% of the time and even when a woman asks, they often split the bill. The purse reaching dance is another trite convention where the woman offers, but has no expectation she would have to outlay anything.
This issue is very aggravating to men and is the reason why men often don’t spend much on first dates.
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Agree with your point but for the record – this is not Feminism.
It’s fine though… just means one more nice guy out there for a woman who’ll actually appreciate what she’s got is all.
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Let me rephrase:
Women who identify as feminists, where they imply feminism stands for freedom from gender roles, are hypocrites if they expect men to pay on first dates.
But yes, water always finds its level. People will partner up based on screening for compatibility. Expectations of gender roles in relationships is one such indicator of compatibility.
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There is however a bit of a flipside. I have actually been asked by men when discussing their views on equality in relationships etc ‘what will I get in return’, and I think this sticks a bit in my craw.
Generosity is more than financial – I like generosity of spirit.
And for the record I paid for two mens meals a fortnight ago on dates.
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If someone is generous that is lovely, likewise I like to be generous towards my boyfriend as well.
I would never just expect generosity from anyone, let alone someone I barely know, though…. they may not pay for my dinner on a first date but they may be generous in other ways or insist on paying a bit further down the track, only time will tell.
The key issue for me here is that the author has completely dismissed a guy she states she *still* likes purely because he didn’t pay for her dinner…
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‘I would never just expect generosity from anyone, let alone someone I barely know, though…. they may not pay for my dinner on a first date but they may be generous in other ways or insist on paying a bit further down the track, only time will tell.’
This mini-rant isn’t directed at you Jules.
Its the expectation that upsets me. I definitely pay for full nights out a little bit down the track once I find out the girl doesn’t expect anything. The gesture is devalued if its taken for granted, or worse, used as a prerequisite for dating.
Say you’re cooking for your husband. In one case he grabs the plate and scoffs it down while watching the footy show, leaving the empty plate at the side of his chair for collection with no further comment. You’d feel like you were being taken for granted.
On the other hand if he came up and thanked you while you were cooking and told you how delicious the meal was after the fact, you’d be much happier and be glad to be doing something for him.
Going further, imagine if he badmouthed you to his friends if you didn’t cook for him one night.
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Yes, Haven. And bludging is more than financial too don’t you think?
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One name per post please. Makes the debate more fair for everyone.
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I agree. I find it difficult to take anyone seriously as a Feminist if they dismiss a guy they like purely because he won’t pay for her food. Very hypocritical.
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For me, it’s about generosity… because I’m the same with friends also. If I’m out with a girlfriend and it was my idea, or my pick, or I’m just feeling like it… i’ll offer to pay. I like to think they’ll do the same also.
So on a date… I like the generosity of someone offerring to pay (be it me or the guy), but since I’m shy AS i’ve never asked a guy on a date so it’s generally them making the offer to pay (makes more sense as the asker). And I like it, it’s generous… i really don’t think it’s about gender. Then I’ll usually offer to buy dessert somewhere else, or a nightcap.
On the second date I’ll offer to pay and will insist. Once we’re comfortable (ie. an item) it’s whoever can afford it really… but never split, I just hate the haggely part of splitting, the getting change and everything… it is awkward.
Anyhoo, that’s my take.
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I personally think the man should pay, and we do the payment dance. But yes I always bring enough money, just in case.
My Question is do men still think the 3 day call back rule applies???
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Are you saying you are a prostitute? He pays for having sex with you? Do you ever wonder why men don’t want you?
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If he invited you out to dinner, he should pay. Vice versa… Then work out the balance of who pays as and if the relationship progresses.
Simple
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Do you think that’s why so many females are whinging they are single? Men have been told for 50 years that females are as good as any man and whatever a man can do a female can do better and females are super communicative compared to men. So if a female wanted to meet a man she would approach him, chat him up, buy his drinks, agree to meet for dinner some night, pay for him then expect to have sex with him. As a man, I think I would rather not have anything to do with females unless they are like this. That’s what females have demanded for 50 years. Be treated the same as men. I’m all for it. If I wanted to pay for a female I would and I would know I’m getting what I want without having to pay any extra. So, like over a million men, I’ll wait for a female to ask me out. I also realise that you females have been saying for 50 years that if only men were more like females the world would be a better place. So that’s what I better do. Thank you to all you females for raising my consciousness.
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What is with all this equality crap?
Men and women are different, neither is better than the other but we are not equal and never will be.
I know that will stir the pot a bit but bugger me, it’s the differences between men and women that makes the whole damn thing better. I think we should be making the most of the differences to get a more even view on just about everything.
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Equal does not mean “exactly the same”.
In this context it means different but of the same value (ie to society, to a workplace etc).
In regards to paying for dinner… some men like to pay, some women like to pay – more power to them. But to *expect* it from your date purely because he is a man is wrong.
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While I’m an old fashioned girl and used to like a man to offer, I know a lot of my husbands friends are single and many of them have to take “time off” from dating (through dating sites etc) because they can’t afford it. Shame, because they are lovely guys and want to do the “right” thing by a lady.
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Really?
Why should anyone expect that a guy should pay on the first or any other date? Sounds like free loading …
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If a guy asks me out to dinner I like it when they pay. But I make sure I have enough cash if he wants to split the bill.
If all is going well I will buy after dinner drinks.
And if it goes really well I’ll cook him dinner another time.
I also like to buy surprise tickets to things – and always take my turn in a drinks shouting round.
Most guys I know earn 3-5 times as much as me per week. Should they be penalised for that? No. Should women expect men to pay for the pleasure of spending time with them? No. Is having someone treat you to a lovely date nice and appreciated? Yes
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Why does he have to be the first to pay? Why does the man have to wear all of the risk in the early stages of dating?
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Probably because when he invited me he said “I’d like to take you out to dinner” and not “Let’s have dinner some time”. That’d be the difference.
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You’ve changed from explaining your beliefs to explaining what happened in one particular situation.
But, yeah if he makes it clear during the invitation that he’s paying for everything there isn’t a problem.
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That’s not one particular situation – that’s pretty much every dinner date I’ve ever gone on at the start of dating.
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Why should the guy pay? Just, why? You want to be considered his equal, you behave like his equal. You pay your share, end of story. The ‘polite’ song and dance thing, pretending to go for your wallet? I don’t understand these games at all.
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My partner and I were discussing this and he said that in situations like this, women should ask themselves, what would Mr Big do? Yes, he’d pay for the dinner, the drinks, the cab and he’d open doors for you.
He is old fashioned and thinks the man should pay and if he can’t afford it, do things on a smaller scale.
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I really don’t get why this is so fraught – whoever asks the other person out pays- nothing to do with letting men be men. I have asked guys out and have paid and vice versa.
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nice rule, but in society, it is still men doing 95% of the asking out.
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you shouldn’t assume that the man’s going to pay. You ate half the food, you pay half the bill. Imagine if it was the other way around, and men just assumed the woman was going to pay the bill. When did it become a thing that the man should pay?
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I think it’s nice for him to pay on the first date but I don’t think it’s a deal breaker if it was split.
Having said that though, my fiancé paid for pretty much everything for the first year we were together.
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I suspect the girls for who it is a deal breaker are more likely to be attractive and thus be able to get away with an entitled attitude. If there are 10 guys lining up to take you out to dinner, why would you ever reach for your purse?
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Well Guy, I think it goes much further than that. Females are quite open about seeking a man who will “provide” for them. In the Aussie vernacular this means they want a bloke to bludge off. If he pays her bills from the start she can be fairly certain he will continue that behaviour
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I like it when a guy pays, but not paying is not a deal breaker at all, just the 2nd date will be planned to fit my uni student budget….
I asked my current boyfriend out but when it came time to pay he asked me if I minded him paying,which I responded that I was happy to split it before he took the bill and said he would prefer to pay, and since that date he has paid every time. This suits us as he likes to look after me and spoil me because he thinks thats what men should do and Im happy for him to do so, although part of the reason im ok with him paying is that I cook him dinners, and bake treats and take them to his work and spoil him in other non-expensive ways.
I think its down to each couple, everyone has different feelings on the matter and you have to do what works for you!
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I like your style and Mr Min and I are quite similar I think
That said, I also like other people’s comments here saying “if you ask you pay”, seems fair, I always offer to pay or at least split the bill. But Mr Min spoils me – so I pay him back in other ways
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When my husband and I were first dating, I would usually insist on splitting the bill. Later, we took turns paying. Funny thing is, I always liked it when he paid- it did feel chivalrous, and just… nice. I don’t think that liking a few nice old-fashioned chivalry related values is anti-feminist. If the guy had any hint of condescension about it, though, that would be totally different.
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My belief is whoever did the asking does the paying. If he suggested the date then he should be prepared to pay. Vice versa.
However when my husband and I were dating he always paid while I was on the phone or in toilet etc. It was always done before I had a chance to do it. !!
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I’m with you. That’s why I’ve been waiting since April, 2004 for an Aussie female to ask me out. Hasn’t happened yet so I will stick with Kiwis, Brazilians and Asians. Not spending money on females has meant I have a LOT more cash. If only I could get the cash back that I spent on females, I could buy another house.
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Of course you split the bill on the first date (have you no pride???) – that way if there isn’t a second no-one’s lost out. After that, depends on circumstances. But which bloke around would want to go back for another go if he thinks you’re just a sponge?
The deal-breaker for me here would have been mentioning the Feminist Movement as an excuse. Coming up with a line like that so quickly sounds to me like he’s also the type to try to weasel out of housework and childcare.
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Nichole, I totally understand where you are coming from. Everyones different but these are my personal feelings on it. I think on a first date, whoever asked who on the said date should be the one to pay or at least offer to pay. That should be the general ettiquette, without any repercussions such as, e.g. if the guy pays and you have no interest in seeing him again, would you feel bad having him pay? I think once you start having sex, the guy should automatically pay (its gross i know! its just how i feel) and once in an established relationship (like i am now) you just take turns. Im soon marring my partner after 6 years together and my money is his money (we earn roughly the same plus i have my own place) so in the end it all evens out for us.
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I’ve always been very openly “not a feminist”.
Then, I read a blog by Mia Freedman to Jacki O recently and was like, “maybe I am a feminist after all.”
Well, this post has just reminded me exactly why I am not a feminist. The hypocrisy and double standards of it all!
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Agree. Equality should mean just that. It should not mean fixing the things that work against women while keeping all the good bits that work in a womans favour.
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I’d be interested to know what your definition of a feminist is before I accept that you’re not one.
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I agree absolutely with Anna.
Surely at a base level, to be a feminist is to simply assert that you feel women are people in just the same way that men are.
My particular base ‘justification’ is that I want my little sister to have exactly the same opportunities and rights as my little brother would in the same circumstances.
Gemack, you may not subscribe to a fundamentalist version of feminism, nor what you see to be a feminism with double standards, but surely you aren’t so morally opposed to identifying with such a basic definition?
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If there was a clean slate, and feminism for me represented equality in terms of social and political rights, I would definitely call myself a feminist.
However, over and over again I have seen feminism not to represent that. Too often, feminism seems to be fundamentally hypocritical (like this article!); men should respect me as an independent woman, but pay the bill when we get dinner. I love reading 50 shades of grey, but when men watch porn it’s degrading. Men’s magazines treat women like sex objects, but Cleo’s “bachelor of the year” contest is in good taste. Women should have choice, but not if that choice is to be submissive to her husband (e.g. quit her job to allow her husband to go back to work). We have a “women’s officer” at university, but not a “men’s officer”, despite well-recognised issues that affect men. Other times it has seemed to simply hate men and blame them for the world’s problems. At other times – e.g. the slut walk – it just seems tacky.
I am sure feminism means different things to different people, and at the end of the day I’m sure it’s about finding a label that you feel described your ideology. I am not suggesting that what I have described above is how you feel
But for me, the message of feminism has been bastardised, and I don’t feel the main stream message that is being portrayed to me represents how I feel at all.
So, yes, I am equalist. But no, I am not feminist.
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Good for you Gemack, nice to hear a woman see it for what it is too often, including on here. Hypocrisy, with a capital H.
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I loved reading your comment more than the above post. Great examples of hypocrisy – agree 100%
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As an egalitarian I salute you Gemack.
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I don’t feel like the real point of feminism has a lot to do with some of these points, and I feel you actually have a bastardised perception of what feminism is, and sounds more like radical feminism..
(no offence to you, I also used to call myself an equalist..)
A feminist is an advocate or supporter of the rights and equality of women. Women’s rights does not mean we must have everything the same and equal in equal proportions.
It’s the right to access the same opportunities regardless of our gender.
You have a women’s officer, because there are particular issues that women have which makes success at university difficult. that doesn’t mean there is no one for men to talk to.
I seriously doubt most women who truly consider themselves feminists think splitting the bill is a deal breaker. I might be wrong.
I personally don’t like anyone I don’t know well to buy anything for me, it reduces the possible risk that they feel I owe them something in return, or the expectation of affection
…and personally, I think 50 Shades of Grey is more damaging to women (and literature) than porn.
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Would you please explain the difference between “women’s Rights” and rights men have and why would you want different rights when you want to be treated equally?
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The definition of a feminist as portrayed in the article “A letter to Jackie O is; “Put your hands in your pants. (a) Do you have a vagina? And (b) Do you want to be in charge of it? If you said yes to both, then congratulations, you’re a (c) feminist.”
That’s why females set up the Society for Cutting Up Men – SCUM
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Really? Really? this is even an issue? sure it’s nice to have a date pay but really? that’s a deal breaker? build a bridge and get over it. Such a first world problem.Feminism isn’t taken seriously and is a joke to a lot of people, I read an article which is quite frankly a whingefest ‘I’m a feminist but he didn’t pay for dinner how dare he waaaaaaaa’. no wonder people don’t take us seriously.
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When I first met my husband my salary was quite low in comparison to his, he paid for our first date and during the years up until we were married he would pay sometimes then I would pay at other times. We never had a agreement as such, we just did what was comfortable for us. I felt spoilt when he would take me out somewhere upmarket for dinner and he felt the same when I would take him out even if it was to a less fancy place. When the relationship got serious we would both say that it didn’t really matter as any money saved would be both ours in the end. When we were married we merged our bank accounts and we have always treated money as ours together. Now my salary is higher which is nice because I feel I can contribute the way he was. I just think that everyone has their own way and you should just do what feels right personally.
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Omg , who cares? Everyone’s different. I love how people get so dramatic and over analyze every fine detail. If you want to pay all power to you , if you like/expect a man to pay , that’s perfectly acceptable , some people are more traditional. My bf paid for our first date 5yrs ago & when i offered he said ‘ you can pay for the next one’ . Thank god because I had about $12 in my account ( i was a uni student). When you’re in love with someone , you don’t mind sharing/paying etc I’m surprised as to how many ppl are saying they keep count and always split the bill , god forbid you let your bf\husband pay – he may think you’re a prostitute ( referring to earlier comments) or somehow the lesser sex ,
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I earn a fair bit more than my husband, as do many women I know. Why should we expect a man to pay when we are in a good position to pay for ourselves? This reeks of gold digging to me.
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This post and the general idea that men are expected to pay on a first day… Grosses me out. First world problem indeed! Honestly, it’s sad. I’ve been on dates with guys who have been conditioned to feel like they should foot the entire bill, and when i politely insist that i contribute, they automatically assume i’m not interested in them! Drives me mad. Maybe i am just really independent? I won’t accept money or assistance from my parents either, yet i know so many women in their 20s and 30s who remain financially supported by their parents in one way or another. Including my eldest sister – she always gets herself in debt and reveives huge handouts from them. And funnily enough she would drop a guy in a second if he didnt pay for the first date.
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I am a big believer in the Man paying for the first date & as I just wrote that I wonder how it works in lesbian relationships……
I haven’t always believed this I used to want to be independent & prove that I didn’t need a man to survive so therefore I didn’t need him to pay or kill any spiders.
Now I feel that a man should pay not only for the first date but any main event of an outing.
I have been married for 5 weeks & if we go out for dinner my husband will pay as he earns way more than me. Saying that I like to pay for the little things like cab fares & pre dinner drinks.
My best friend believes a man should always pay as a woman spends more money on presentation & grooming of herself for the occasion.
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I don’t necessarily have a problem with your expectation of your man if you too are willing to undertake the traditional gender role of a woman.
‘My best friend believes a man should always pay as a woman spends more money on presentation & grooming of herself for the occasion.’
This is just another rationalisation for why women shouldn’t pay. How far down the rabbithole do you go on taking into account costs for the date? His suit? His Haircut? The petrol? The insurance and repayments on the BMW he uses to pick you up?
Your friend’s argument comes down to ‘My presence is worth more than the man’s so he should pay for the privilege of my company’.
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To shed some light on the etiquette in lesbian relationships, the first date is generally bill splitting territory – one of us offers to pay for the meal, the other will probably get the movie/museum tickets, or we take turns buying rounds of drinks. That’s how it generally continues throughout the relationship unless there’s a conspicuous difference in income. For example, I usually pay if my girlfriend and I go out for dinner because I can afford it a lot more easily than she can. She helps out in different but equally valuable ways, such as doing the dishes (my most hated chore) and bringing groceries from home. Once she graduates and gets a higher-paying job, things will probably even out financially. It’s really just fair and logical that we each try to contribute in our own way.
Just quietly, I’m so thankful that I’ve never had to question whose “duty” it is to pay the bill. Straight folks, maybe take a leaf out of us lesbians’ book. Don’t worry so much – it’s only money!
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If he invites you, he should pay. If you invite him, you should pay. It’s nice to be taken out and cared for but it goes both ways.
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My thoughts exactly
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I’m with you. I haven’t been out with an Aussie chick since April 2004. I’m waiting for one to ask me out.
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From our first date my husband always paid. He wanted to spoil me and impress me. It obviously worked. I loved it! He was also earning twice as much as me so I didn’t feel bad. It was no reflection on my independence and he’s as feminist as they come. He also likes to give homeless people money, buy friends expensive wine and escort female friends to a taxi at the end of the night. It’s about generosity and caring and a very good trait if you can find it in a person. He has raised the bar for all of us in our circle of friends and I’m very proud to be with him.
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That’s just plain biologic psychology .Woman instinctively look for signs that the man will care enough / be able to feed and protect her while she’s pregnant , care enough/be able to help raise possible offspring , so we look for the “caring type”.
Man wants to get you into bed, so he plays that role and when he doesn’t it makes you feel like an easy/ stupid woman to accept sleeping with them and (subconsciously) risk a pregnancy with just any random male. So generally , it doesn’t work in anybody ‘s favour to split the bill on the first date : the woman feels uneasy accepting sex even if she previously had plans to get THAT hottie naked, and condoms and the pills haven’t existed for long enough to change our biological instincts yet.
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So females are prostitutes. Nice way of putting it tho.
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Personally, my rule was to always pay on the first date, and usually before the bill arrived. It felt at the time like a little bit of a power play, letting the guy know that I was ‘wise to the world’ and didn’t want any games. Generally, it seemed to get their attention and set a tone for any future dates (at which we would alternate or split the bill).
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If I was invited out on a first date then I would be disappointed if he didn’t offer to pay, I just consider it good manners.
But, that said, I would always insist on paying half.
If he wouldn’t let me pay then I would offer to pay on the second date (if he was worth it!).
Good manners definitely score points with me.
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When I was a lot younger say 18-21 I would always prefer to split the bill as then there was no other expectations. However as I go older and started to date ‘real gentlemen’ I really enjoyed when they paid as it made me feel like a lady oh and a proper date.
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However as I go older and started to date ‘real independent women’ I really enjoyed when they paid as it made me feel like a gentleman oh and a proper date.
I’m with you. If a female won’t ask me out and pay for me then how can I be sure she will pay my bills when we are married. (see Clarinet above)
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Oh Backup I’m clearly moving is different circles to you. Good luck with your strange/weird dating ideas
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Well, MissKate, it’s what you females demand of me. To treat you equally. Just as I would another man. So why would you think me weird if I say exactly the same as you?
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To avoid confusion and avoid crossing boundaries…
I think AS SOON AS THE BILL ARRIVES, if the girl prefers to split the bill then she should say so. But if the guy has planned to pay for it. Then he immediately needs to take the bill and say that he will fix it up. If we adopt this as an etiquette, it will save a lot of misunderstandings! What do you think?
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As soon as the bill hits the table, I grab it to tally up my portion of the bill. I’m independent and proud of it, thanks.
Also I don’t like being beholden to some guy who thinks just because he paid for my dinner means he gets anything else at the end of the night.
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Why does feminism mean that chivalry shouldn’t exist?
Of course a guy should pay for the first date. It’s about him charming you, impressing you and just being polite.
Sure later down the track you can split, but at the beginning I think it’s perfectly fine for him to pay.
Maybe I’m stuck in a fairytale, but honestly I don’t think letting a man pay for a date is in any way detrimental to equality.
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Why aren’t you trying to charm and impress him?
How is paying the full bill ‘being polite’? I don’t pay for my friends and they don’t consider that rude.
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Because, by definition, chivalry means treating people differently. This is NOT what females want. Females want EQUALITY
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Guy pays on first date, it’s not about chivalry, it’s just the polite thing to do!
I went on a date with a guy once and we were meeting at a bar first. He didn’t even offer to buy me a drink, I had to get my own. Automatic red flag!
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Absolutely, if he won’t pay for you on the first date then what chance do you have of bludging off him in the future. Men. Huh. Expecting to receive the same respect females demand for themselves. What losers.
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I pretty much treat dates like I would dinner with a friend. I offer to go halves, and if they insist then I say thank you very much and am genuinely appreciative. Buying dinner for someone is such a nice gesture, I can’t believe people actually expect it to happen and lose interest in the guy if it doesn’t.
Regardless of who is buying you dinner in what context, it’s a gift! Not an expectation.
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Should he not feel the same way as you did not offer to pay for him? Or are you just not that in to him?
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There is certainly no hard and fast rule about paying on first dates. But it can give you some very reliable information about your date!. On my last first date, he paid for a (v reasonably priced) dinner, and then we went to vivid Sydney so it was a very cheap date! But I certainly offered to pay my own way. It’s polite to do and I don’t think you should just expect the man to pay. However, as my date refused to let me contribute, I let him pay. I didn’t want to argue with him, and I could tell that him paying on our first date was a step up from us splitting the bill as friends. It indicated a change in dynamic of the relationship. And he insists that’s how he knew I was interested (strange, twisted, cute gentleman’s logic!) He still offers to pay when we go out however I am what he calls the ‘cash cow’ (I earn more) so we mostly take turns paying. My mum has heard my angst about him earning less but still insisting on paying when we go out. She tells me to let him pay without complaining or arguing every now and then because some fellas (mine in particular) like to feel like they are looking after you. It’s the ‘provider’ instinct, apparently. Bless them!
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I haven’t dated since the 80s so I’m definitely not an expert.
If a guy asked me out and chose the restaurant and then suggested splitting the bill like that, I would have taken it as a sign that he’s not that keen. At least you had a nice meal and learned a bit more about what you’re looking for in a man
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