Gina Rinehart
by MIA FREEDMAN
Here’s something weird: the idea that if you call yourself a feminist, you are duty bound to support the actions and ideology of every other person in the world who has a vagina. Really? No, REALLY?
This week has been interesting. I’ve fielded many surprising “how-can-you-call-yourself-a-feminist?” accusations via social media on two very different subjects.
The first was triggered by my column (which you can read here) where I wrote about Birthzillas. Apparently, by questioning women who choose to give birth at home despite their pregnancies being high risk (with often fatal consequences for their babies), I am somehow ‘betraying the sisterhood’.
The same accusation was made last week when, on Twitter, I questioned mining magnate Gina Rinehart’s bid to hire and fire editors at Fairfax where she is now the biggest shareholder. So to be clear: apparently if you are a feminist, you should support everything every other woman does just because…….she’s a woman. How insane and insulting, this idea of using the word ‘feminism’ to shut down debate and critical thought on the basis of what’s in your knickers.
As How To Be A Woman author Caitlin Moran says, “When did feminism become confused with Buddhism? I don’t build in a 20 per cent ‘Genital Similarity Regard Bonus’ if I meet someone else wearing a bra. If someone’s an arsehole, someone’s an arsehole – regardless of whether we’ve both been standing in the longer toilet queue at festivals or not.”
Sing it sister. For me, feminism is simply about equality. And that doesn’t mean giving anyone a get-out-of-jail free card just because they’re female.
What does feminism mean to you? Does feminism mean sticking up for the choices of all women, even when you disagree with them? Do you consider yourself to be a feminist?
Comments
302 Comments so far
I’m going to be radical and say that unless you have studied uni-level women’s studies, you don’t know the half of it! I hear so many women on this forum saying that they are feminists yet exhibit the same ignorance about women’s realities as the rest of the population. Surface level feminists bicker about topics like what you are discussing Mia. Real feminists know the dire state women are still in and unless there is a third-wave feminist movement, to finish what those courageous earlier women started, we will just all continue with the pretense that we are now almost equal.
What I see is women who are still worried about pissing off their husbands and don’t support their gender, especially in political voting. Women still lie about sex because they don’t want men to think they are ‘cold fish’, to coin an expression from the 60′s. Women pursue careers but wear all the guilt about putting their kids into care because it hasn’t occurred to them that men should become involved. Women are still doing most of the housework, especially those who work part-time because it hasn’t occurred to them that their hubbies should do half of it or that it’s ok to outsource the household labour.(House cleaners only charge $20 per hour!!) Women still care too much about how they look. Women are still living a hampered life, because of the violence of men. (Women are on a virtual curfew because of the fear of violent men after dark, not to mention in the home).
Some examples of how men still rule the world. Sport has it’s own segment on the news despite only half the population being interested. Male newsreaders don’t have to be attractive. There are numerous medications to control women’s biological functions, ceasing their menstruation and overriding their hormones for example but the only medications that mess with men’s are those increasing their ‘staying power.’ Men are still getting most of the CEO positions because those roles are built around male characteristics of being free to work long hours, aggressive business tactics and establishing boys clubs. Boys still get most of the teacher’s attention because we still think it’s ok to say ‘boys will be boys.’ Single mothers are still vilified when their children get hurt by their boyfriends yet no-one asks why the father wasn’t around to protect their child. The highest honours we give in society are to servicemen and women who fight in wars, that MEN start. Where is the public holiday for all the women who have given their lives in childbirth?
Feminism needs women to band together, like men do in their boys clubs. It needs to begin in the home, from the ground up. Men need to get on board and challenge their own gender on their bad behaviour and we need to teach them why they must do it. The more we bicker about this and that between ourselves, the less likely we are to agree on one thing…that there is still work to be done, for our daughters sakes.
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Oh dear. You haven’t learnt not to make sweeping generalisations yet.
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Here here!! Except for “surface level” and “real” feminist labels
Just think any woman who claim the title feminist care about gender roles and that’s a good thing 
There’s always been “social” “liberal” “radical” “lesbian separatist” “cultural” “eco” feminisms and more …. this is often why there is disagreement over certain issues 
But love your comment !
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“Sport has it’s own segment on the news despite only half the population being interested”. Are you suggesting that women aren’t interested in sport?
“There are numerous medications to control women’s biological functions, ceasing their menstruation and overriding their hormones” I don’t know any women who choose to take these medications who dislike them. If it’s helping painful periods, why is that a bad thing? Or would a true feminist embrace that pain?
This is the same Jash that was carrying on on the Childcare thread about how everyone feels guilt about childcare and how you couldn’t give up your kids’ first 5 years, but then take your kids to kindy? *Confused*
And I don’t think you need to have done women’s studies at uni to understand the stuff you’ve raised. I do think you need to have been a bit brainwashed by it to agree though.
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Kris2040 you are clearly one of the minority of women who enjoy watching mostly male sport. Lucky for you… because there’s plenty of it!
I didn’t ‘carry on’ about not wanting to put my child in care, meaning day care. Kinder was 3 hours per week, hardly care.
And you can say I was brainwashed by studying women’s studies (and my apologies for any facts I got wrong, was a few years ago) but I’m glad I did it because it blew me away how unaware I was of how our society really works. We are all brainwashed by our studies, in whatever field, aren’t we Kris?
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I don’t think it’s a minority at all. Just because you don’t like sport doesn’t mean a majority of women hate it.
I still cannot compute your berating those of us who use daycare and are cool with it (and telling us that we are actually feeling guilty about it) with you then turning around and telling us what a full day you lead including “kinder drop off and pick up”. You were most definitely looking down on those of us who need to use it or who choose to use it. Which is at direct odds with your comment above about women pursuing careers and using other carers for their kids.
I think it’s probably time you went back to uni, as you seem to need a refresher on “how our society really works”.
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Kris2040 women make up the minority of sports viewers, do you seriously disagree with that?
Gee, get over the child care thing will ya? I want to be there for my kids until school age, you want/have to work and use care. 400+ comments on that topic shows it’s a sensitive issue and I still believe a lot of women feel guilty about it and would feel better if their partners could be with their child rather than paid strangers. Just my opinion (this is a forum for opinions is it not?)
I am back at uni.
Sorry my world, because I don’t watch sport and put my kids in creche, doesn’t fit into your classification of the real world. That’s a blokey accusation actually, that because I am a SAHM I am not in the real world….is Kris short for Kristopher?
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Um, Jash, I’m pointing out inconsistencies. In this thread, you’re all about choices for women to have kids and keep their careers, yet in that other thread you were berating those who were exercising that choice.
A blokey accusation? No, I’m a chick. I just don’t agree with you.
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I love watching men’s sports. Thanks for generalizing about all women and what we do and do not like. I am an individual first and I don’t like your labels.
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Um, if you went to university you might have known there was a third-wave of feminism. You can google it.
I disagree that the issues you’ve raised are more important than the “surface” issues you think Mia and this whole blog discusses.
While we are still fighting for equality of women in a cultural context in Australia, I think it is also important to always reassess why and how we identify as feminists. I think this might be something that is often sidelining other issues such ones you’ve mentioned, and gets them confused.
Discussing why and how we are feminists is as important as fighting for actually equality for woman, and I agree with Mia for raising this point to try and get some clarity here.
Otherwise, what is the point of fighting if we don’t know who or what we’re fighting for?
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As long as it’s not each other, was my point.
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I’m sorry, but doesn’t “women banding together” create further divisions between men and women? Wouldn’t it be best we just saw one another as individuals and not having this dichotomy. Also, why should women have to “support their gender” in politics? This whole us and them attitude is what caused gender inequality in the first place!
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Matt it was men relegating women to second-class citizen status, that caused gender inequality in the first place. Women cannot be blamed in any way for this, they had no power whatsoever. I’m not saying women should just vote for women, I’m saying women should become more interested in politics and stop voting just the way their husbands do, as studies show they still do.
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That is a huge assumption. I don’t know a single women who votes the way her husband tells her to. I really think your generalizations are damaging.
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Didn’t mean to cause damage Elizabeth, I’m sure I read it somewhere that that is how women are still tending to vote as I was horrified, though I’ve googled and can’t find any info on it. So point taken!
Opinions will always contain generalisations, unless they are researched, referenced articles which I’m sure we’re not expected to produce here. This is a forum for opinions so take mine or leave it, as you have done.
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Wow Jash. I don’t think you’re radical… I think you’re dismissive. But hey, thanks for letting me know that my years of working in a male dominated sector arguing for the rights of women in the home and workplace, supporting anti-violence groups and awareness, being active at a political level and being what I thought was an educated feminist was all ignorant because I didn’t do “uni-level women’s studies”.
What were you saying about women needing to band together? I couldn’t hear it down here below that high horse of yours.
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I agree with you, being a feminist doesn’t mean supporting everything other women do. That being said, can you PLEASE stop quoting Catlin Moran so often? I loved her book too but don’t think constantly referring to her adds anything to your writing.
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I agree, I haven’t read the Caitlin Moran book and thus can’t offer an opinion, but quite frankly, the repetitive quoting of Moran is putting me off it, more than anything. Overkill. There are a plethora of interesting studies, books etc. that you could refer to that might add more to your writing, rather than consistently sticking a quote from Moran in at the end. All meant with good vibes, by the way
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I agree. I find the Caitlin Moran quoting a little OTT. I enjoyed her book but thought it was flawed in many ways.
I agree with Black Cherry that perhaps Mamamia should be quoting from more than one source on topics such as feminism.
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Mia, to me those tweets and the comments on the posts mentioned where not saying you are a ‘bad feminist’ for not agreeing with all women, but for ridiculing and to to some extent belittling others’ choices. To me feminism is all about choice as much as equality, and it is fine to disagree with others, as long as you don’t resort to saying your choices are better than theirs. I think differently to a lot of people but I hope I never use bully-boy tactics to make them feel bad about what they think.
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Hi Valerie,
Interesting points, thanks for making them. I’m not going to shy away from speaking out against things I disagree with. I am just one person with one opinion. I don’t claim to speak for anyone else, certainly not all women!
So by that token, I should be able to express my own views.
In the case of the Birthzillas column, that meant my own observation that there are a growing number of women who seem to be extremely focussed on their birth experiences. And taken to extremes, this can endanger the lives of their babies…..
I guess my point is that using words like “judging” or “feminist” to try and silence people when they have different opinions to you is a nonsense.
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Mia this is where I think your on person, one opinion stance is flawed.
You have an audience of thousands of women, you’re a role model whether you like it or not, and just like the behaviour you expect from other role models, you have a certain obligation.
Not to be supportive, but to be respectful.
Like not reducing other women with whom you don’t share an affinity, to ‘vaginas with opinions’ and declaring that using words like “judging” and “feminism” to try and silence people when opinions differ is nonsense.
You’re belittling those women’s opinions, maybe they’re not trying to silence YOU, maybe they’re trying to be heard.
And this is where I agree that you’re a bad feminist, because you use you position to make other women feel bad about their opinions.
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Whoops iPad typer *one person * your position
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Hi Mia,
Also don’t agree with “one person”, “one opinion” argument. There are some issues raised on this site where you and the team have tried to broach a subject from every angle to help bring out debate.
Then there are the issues you’ve simply decided to only air the “one opion” but then have continued to do so in various shapes and form in different articles. Let’s not forget you then using twitter and facebook. It can be seen as a little soap-box-y.
In terms of your actual logic – feminism isn’t agreeing with everyone – makes huge sense. But also recognising that feminism is about choices, on a few of your opinions, has completely gone out the window.
Sure, defining feminism is hard, and while you’ve defined what it isn’t, it doesn’t really broach the broadness of what it actually is.
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Yes – that is my point – that we should be able to express our views and opinions and while doing that value and respect the opinions of others. I don’t think you should shy away from expressing your views, after all, that is your job, but to do so in a way that avoids antagonising or belittling others is important, I think. Choice of words is key.
I do believe that we are far more able to influence others and help them think outside the box not through taking a dogmatic, “My view is right!” stance, but a respectful, kind, thoughtful expression of our viewpoint. I know this does not good journalism make, but I find it far more effective in helping people consider ideas outside their paradigm.
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Sometimes I don’t know how you do it Mia, always dealing with criticism. I don’t think being a feminist means you have to always agree with or support women. Isn’t that what we don’t want men to do? Not everyone is going to agree with each other and it should put down to gender. Reading other peoples opinions can be interesting and enlightening.
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Well i’m a bit scared. i like the idea of feminism but when i have to make specific choices about what theat then might mean for me i’m a bit confused. As a single mother of two girls I am all for pushing the idea that women need to be well informed and make good choices for themselves, and they can make good options for their future lives. However not all women are to be admired and some act in ways that end up damaging the good work carried out by others (men included!)
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Can I also offer a constructive criticism about your writing Mia? You might want to decide which point you want to make and work a little more logically through your articles. There’s only a limited amount of space! The birthzilla article has lots of great points but no clear progression through them, and the final line was BRILLIANT but a bit lost.
Also, saying things like ‘Huh?’ comes off as a bit dismissive and rude. Just say what you need to say, we’re listening because we want to hear your thoughts!
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Definition in Wikipedia: Feminist activists campaign for women’s rights – such as in contract law, property, and voting – while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women’s suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[7][8] Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault.[9][10][11] They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women.[7][8][12] Feminism is mainly focused on women’s issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, some feminists argue that men’s liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles. I am a feminist because women and men are not equal – but should have equal rights and this means offering BOTH men and women choices and given the patriarchy ( a system that has allowed 95% of the world work to women while the majority of the wealthy are men, where women are still not allowed to vote, drive be educated in some countries, do more subtle forms of sexism like the majority of men dominating most talking spaces, etc, etc, etc….) People do not often understand the structural gendered sexism inherent in our systems. Feminism is of course fighting for more choices for all women AND men – women can vote, be doctors etc and men can care for children etc…. I think it’s criticising people in general for their choices that’s the problem and giving them derogatory names like Birthzilla – that’s just offensive! We try to teach our children discuss the issue – not to name call, yet we have adults and our media perpetrating bullying behviours. When women become PM’s or capitalists it brings in another issue altogether – class and distribution of wealth – which still discriminates against women generally – and therefore you have the paradox – women who break the glass ceiling only to find that the system still discriminates against women, the poor, different races, etc… I feel you are trying to make a very complex ideology into something simple – where you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t – which again is something feminists have had to face since their existance. But look at all we have from feminists – women you can write for the media and women who can respond, which is something many women still are not allowed to do in their countries.
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Quoting Caitlin Moran = Winning Debate
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Men don’t agree with what other men do, so why should women all agree with each other?! Feminism is about equality. Some ladies have very strange ideas about what feminism is. Women aren’t obliged to support a powerful female because of the mere fact she’s a female. And of course Mia would be horrified by Gina Rhinehart’s latest acquisitions! Everyone should be! It’s a blow against democracy and editorial freedom – nothing to do with feminism.
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While I agree with alot of Caitlin’s opinions, I really didn’t enjoy her book. Way too raw for me, made me feel so uncomfortable (espesh her early teen years). Maybe too close to home?
Anyway, can someone explain why we don’t like Gina?
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those tweets made me laugh!! i love how having an opinion and voicing it seems to make you a bad person by those who have the opposite opinion… it’s not like you were trying to convert us or something Mia… i agree that mothering has become a competition with some women and it shouldn’t be!
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By their own definitions, aren’t the women in the tweets posted in the article being ‘anti- feminist’ by being critical toward Mia’s opinion? If Mia has to agree with women purely based on the fact that they are women, surely she should be treated the same?
Very amused by the hypocrisy.
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No – because they are not saying Mia is being unfeminist simply because she’s critical of their choices. That is what Mia wants to believe is happening here, but “I would choose differently” is not the actual unfeminist thought she is espousing.
No, Mia is being unfeminist because she’s criticizing the very idea of women HAVING choices in birth, beyond “I pick YOU as a doctor, now tell me exactly what to do and I shall unquestioningly obey, since you are infallible and have no interests to serve other than my & my child’s safety and wellbeing.”
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I love how you’re suddenly characterising your Birthzilla article as being against high-risk home births. Garbage. It was about ridiculing women with birth plans. At least be honest about it.
Perhaps you lost your stomach for that argument when you realised you were promoting ignorance and blind faith in the medical profession instead of getting behind women who are informed, aware and (heaven forbid) assertive about their rights. Which WOULD be feminist.
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I don’t enjoy your method of expression, Seahorse, but you are right about the Birthzilla article – it *was* about birth plans and the idiocy of making excessively detailed ones. That said, it wasn’t a long bow to draw between this and bridezillas who focus too much on the detail of a wedding and not the marriage… I got it.
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It was about excessively demanding that excessive birth plans be slavishly adhered to.
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but thats the thing Kris, it wasnt that extreme – Mia just said anyone who wrote any form of birth plan at all was an idiotic.
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Hey Seahorse,
There were two parts to my Birthzillas piece. One was the light side which poked fun at birth plans and how the best laid plans can fall apart because birth is not like assembling a piece of IKEA furniture.
I include myself very much in this. While I didn’t have a birthplan for my first child, I thought I knew in my head how it would go. It didn’t.
None of my births did and yet none of that mattered because my babies were safe.
I also noted a growing trend among some to over-emphasise the birth part of parenthood. That wasn’t mocking. It was expressing concern because at the extreme end of that are the parents who choose to birth without medical support despite being aware that their births are high risk. And in several cases those babies died.
So I’m not actually backing away from anything. I don’t believe being a feminist means endorsing the choice of women to put the lives of their babies at risk.
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Well said!
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Ps. This is an opinion piece! OPINION. Given the definition of opinion I would think she can write whatever she likes.
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Hi Mia, thanks for the response – your own experiences get to the heart of my problem with your original peace. In your Mama Mia book and several other articles you talk about having wanted an epidural, and how much harder/traumatic the delivery was for you when you couldn’t have one. It kind of amazes me that someone with that experience still doesn’t promote women getting educated about the birth process and so at least preparing themselves for how to handle some aspects of it – particularly basic stuff like, you know, pain. Wouldn’t it have been just that bit easier on you, less stressful for baby, and (according to science) less likely to have lead to a stalled labour if you yourself had been prepared with some form of calm-birth/hypnobirth/ juju/ lamaze etc? Isn’t there any part of you at all that wishes you’d spent half an hour googling how to handle labour pain so that you could have managed that better? And even if you honestly don’t, it still seems rough and a bit cheap to have a crack at those who do.
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Not to take away from the serious argument here, but I’m just smiling because your username is seahorse and you’re talking about birthing choices. If you were a real seahorse the male would do all the birthing : )
(Sorry, I’m in a silly mood).
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I don’t think that the birthzilla article made Mia a ‘bad’ feminist, but I do think that it made her a rude one (or at least a feminist having a rude moment). Maybe the birthzilla tag was supposed to be funny, and the article did mention free- and home-birthers, but it went way beyond that. It certainly gave me the impression (and yes, I know these precise words weren’t used, but I’m talking about the impression the article gave me) that Mia thinks that anyone who has a birth plan is, at best, a bit daft and, at worst, a reckless, selfish fool.
(The analogy that women who have a birth plan care more about the trip to Paris than actually being in Paris is really flawed – so you’ll be walking on your hands to Paris will you? No matter how you get there, you’d better just enjoy the destination, shut up and stop whining.)
I don’t think that being a feminist equals blindly supporting women, no matter what they do – but there are ways to disagree with individuals and groups of individuals that allow you to be respectful and not denigrate an entire group of women, even if you were just trying to be funny. And I don’t think there is anything to be gained by pitting one group against another (as articles such as ‘Let’s chill out about breasts’ have recognised).
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I agree with you Mia. Being female does not mean we agree with every action/opinion that anyone of our gender is portraying.
I copped a lot of criticism in my social cirlce the week that Julia Gillard became PM. My friends told me I should be happy that Australia has its first female PM and that it is a victory for women. I on the other hand did not think it was a victory due to the way Ms Gillard went about obtaining the position. To me that was nothing to be proud of as women but rather a conniving action on Ms Gillard’s behalf – giving women a bad name. I could not ignore this fact and could not be happy with simply the fact we had our first female PM.
Feminism, to me, is simply standing up for the greater good of our gender and ensuring we are treated equally and are able to make the decisions we see fit. Women are not robots, we don’t need to agree on everything!
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I agrees. As a labor supporter and feminist, I was slightly chuffed to have a female PM but disappointed that the pivotal moment in history was tainted by the wrong person in the job, not to mention the way in which she got there. It would have been nice to see someone work their way, up, earn the vote from the people, and slide into the position, well deserved.
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Interesting point. But did it give women as a whole a bad name? Or just Ms Gillard. By extension if, say, Wayne Swan had done that to KRudd would we say that he had given men a bad name?
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I always thought that one of the main aims of feminism was to empower women through giving them choices. I agree with you Mia when you argue that if these choices negatively impact on someone else, particularly if this person is an innocent child and if this child’s life is put at risk, the argument is no longer so black and white. A women writing a birth plan, provided her choices do not put her child at risk, is not hurting anyone. She is trying to regain control over a process and over her own body that she feels modern obstetric standard practices have taken from her. OK, I agree she might be a little annoying to get stuck seated next to at a bbq or a dinner party but she doesn’t deserve to be given yucky labels and put in the same catecory as a free-birther who refuses all medical assistance. Maybe I incorrectly interpreted the article but that was how I read it.
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“Modern obstetric standard practices have taken away”? Please. It’s your body that dictates what happens with birth and whether there are going to be any complications, unforeseen or otherwise. It isn’t the hospital’s fault a baby is breech, or has the cord round their neck, or a placental abruption occurs. It just happens, and it’s something that no-one can control. That was part of what Mia was saying – it’s ridiculous when push comes to shove to expect that a birth will go according your strict plan. There are too many things out of ANYONE’S control.
The only reason I can come up with for the reactions are that maybe it cut too close to the bone for some readers and they recognised themselves in the Birthzilla zone??
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“Modern obstetric standard practices have taken away” – this could be anything, not just birth complications! It could be having a doctor walk in, tap their watch and make noises about ‘moving things along’. It could be constant monitoring of dilation during a low-risk labour, when a woman would prefer to have a rest and not be prodded. And so on.
I admit to finding the birthzilla article offensive in parts, and I think it was the overall tone that did it. The disparaging use of ‘Please.’ in your above comment comes across the same way.
As for the article offending due to it cutting to close to the bone – well, no birthzilla here, so I’d say the offense was caused by varied reasons.
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Um, you’re kind of proving my point. Complaining about monitoring is laughable. How dare anyone make sure everything is OK?!?!
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Easy there! I didn’t actually say “How dare anyone make sure everything is OK?!?!”, nor did I mean that. It wasn’t a great example, so apologies.
I guess the point I was hoping to get across is that people have a wide variety of reasons for being reticent about hospital births, and that open-minded discussion about a topic is more beneficial than sarcasm and quick judgement.
(For the record – had my own baby in hospital, midwives were legendary, had no problem with them monitoring my progress and grateful that they also let me rest and do things at what felt like a ‘normal’ pace.)
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Oops! That was me. Computerly-challenged.
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It’s ok that you don’t know about the research that shows continuous monitoring to only increase the c-section rate, not improve outcomes. It’s even ok not to care about that research for your own births. But it’s not “laughable” to want to avoid excessive monitoring, and it’s not as simple as “making sure everything’s ok”. There are a lot of factors – defensive medicine and fear of litigation, ingrained practices and policies that go against evidence, and the continual breaches of trust that have left so many women feeling violated and without autonomy during birth. Does it seem feminist to you to discount these women’s stories as hysterical irrational selfish divas who don’t care about their babies- assuming that there is something wrong with the *women* rather than entertain the notion that there might be something wrong with the system, even though it claims to have our best interests at heart?
What is your investment in the system? What do you gain by refusing to countenance the idea that more monitoring, observing, measuring and recording isn’t always good thing for birthing women and their babies?
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So because I discount people who complain about monitoring, I have a vested interest in the system? Interesting leap.
How about rather than pouting and saying “Don’t like that, going off on my own and doing it MY WAY”, people just grow the hell up, accept that there might be stuff that is uncomfortable (and frankly if I was looking after someone as demanding as some of the “birth rights” zealots I’d probably be checking on as much stuff as I could to cover my arse as well) and suck it up. Rather than looking down on those of us who manage to be able to do just that and listen to professionals in the moment rather than clowns like Lisa Barrett.
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Sorry, to clarify, when I wrote “standard obstetric practices” I was referring to (in a “normal” labour) such things as being forced to wear a hospital gown instead of her own clothing, giving birth in the lithotomy position, and having excessive vaginal examinations. I was definitely not referring to anything that places the life of the mother and child at risk. There is no denying that obstetric advances in the last hundred years or so have saved countless lives. However many women believe that the process has become medicalised to the point where it can cause more harm (physical and psychological) than good and they want to reduce unnecessary interventions.
For the record, I had a carefully thought out A4 sized birth plan the first time round that I think the midwife glanced at when we were first admitted. The second time round I didn’t even bother writing one. So when it comes to my own experience I am a bit meh about the whole thing and I didn’t reply because the birthzilla term “cuts too close to the bone”.
What made me angry was that there are women for whom it really matters what happens to their bodies during labour and as long as they aren’t hurting anyone what damage is done? If a women wants to have a water birth whilst listening to whale calls and wants to write down her wishes on a piece of paper what does it have to do with me? The worst that can happen is that she is disappointed when Mother Nature doesn’t comply with her wishes.
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But the whole point of the original article is about the women who go in waving around a detailed birth plan then feeling hard done by because it doesn’t get followed by actual professionals who do it for a living. And the thing is, people are disappointed not in mother nature, but blame being in hospital, the midwives, the obstetricians…
And really, being forced to wear a hospital gown is a grave indignity? I’d call it practical. I guess vaginal exams in excess or otherwise is down to the woman, but some things can only be determined by an internal exam. Sometimes you just need to suck it up and get through it.
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I always thought the whole point of the feminism movement was that women were a bit sick of “sucking it up”?
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I’m talking about the birth process – how is it anti-feminist to say that when you’re giving birth you might have to grit your teeth and bare something to just get through it? What about people who don’t like needles but really need a blood test? Or who need something to help them or their baby intravenously? Yeah, you do have to grow up and say “I’ll just have to do it and get over it” sometimes. It’s part of being a grown up.
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OK, well I dare you to find your nearest hospital, walk into the delivery suite and tell the women screaming in pain for an epidural that she should just “grow up” or “suck it up”.
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Eh? Where have I once suggested I’m against epidurals in hospital? I think they’re awesome!
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But Kris2040 that is my point exactly! How is it OK for a women to have autonomy over her own body when it comes to pain relief but you feel free to question her for not wanting to wear a hospital gown? Why does she have to “suck up” some aspects of childbirth but can assert her rights in others? What are you basing your logic on?
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If they’re complaining about being told to wear a hospital gown (which makes life easier for everyone – the mum included), and using that as one of their reasons to put themselves and their baby in danger, as some kind of proof that hospitals are terrible places, then yes, I’ll question it.
You can have an unmedicated birth in a hospital. They aren’t going to force you to have one. Offering pain relief isn’t forcing. There’s nothing wrong with using it.
To pout and say “Nup, don’t like it, going home because I know better” is silly and dangerous.
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99.9% of women who choose not to wear a hospital gown during labour (and just to be nit picky every single women in my mothers group etc who had a vaginal delivery did not wear one so I would argue that it really isn’t “out there”) still give birth in a hospital. Using the hysteria around free-birthing and high risk home birth to criticise a womens basic human right to have a say in what happens to her body during labour and birth is offensive and illogicial. The two issues are unrelated and this is the problem that so many people had with Mia’s original article.
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Can’t seem to reply on the other comment, Kris. Mia’s article wasn’t primarily about those who choose to go outside of the hospital system, although yes, I do believe that’s a valid move despite your childish characterization of it. It was primarily about those who try to stay within the system while maintaining some autonomy.
I get that you’re ok with just “listening to the professionals”. I get that you don’t feel like you can or should make specific decisions about your care during birth. I don’t have near as much faith in professionals, and for good reason. I don’t think it’s a vast conspiracy, but I AM aware of the conflicting incentives and interests at play, and the terrible inertia of hospital policies, and the bias towards “do something, earn your pay” that doesn’t play well with normal birth, which often requires patience and non-interference. I’m aware of how the progress of labor can be affected by environment. So while you may see a diva waving around an excessive birth plan – and surely there are some doozies out there – I see birth plans as an entirely rational and necessary step for women who aren’t willing to take the risk of staying home, and yet aren’t willing to sign over their autonomy to THAT.
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I have no such beliefs or feelings. I had a vague birth plan, what I wanted to try and not try. I had a doula with whom I worked it all out, but my daughter was breech and in distress. According to some people, that is not reason to have an “unnecessarean”. When the obstetrician confirmed that was what was happening, I said “OK, Caesar then?” and he replied “Well, yes, that’s what we would suggest UNLESS YOU’RE REALLY INTENT ON A VAGINAL DELIVERY”. There is no way that this was a one off and I find it really quite reprehensible to see an entire profession represented in a way that suggests they’re all scalpel happy butchers with no regard for the women or babies they are dealing with.
Like I said, I had a birth plan, but I also had the nous to hand over to the professionals when it was needed.
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I think your last paragraph nailed it.
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Feminism – the equality to choose for yourself, its a double edged sword, right.
Now that you can choose, you can also be criticised for your choices.
I think people forget that.
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To me, being a feminist is about championing womens rights and recognising that while men and women are different to each other they are equal. Of course this does not mean agreeing with/supporting the choices of every female.
Mia you obviously feel very strongly opposed to homebirth which is a perfectly valid opinion to have. I can see that is the driving force behind your articles such as the Birthzilla one. The problem is that you are mocking birthing women, name calling and grouping all women who believe that the birth is incredibly important into the label ‘birthzilla’. I think this is ridiculously simplistic and uninformed. It is also insulting.
Women deserve to be respected during pregnancy and birth (as well as postnatally), they should be allowed to make informed choices. Sadly the way our maternity system is set up this is not happening for many, many women. I believe this is absolutely a feminist issue and your article on birthzillas was insulting and encouraged a lot of criticism of women who are trying to be active participants in their own health care.
You have written an ‘edit’ which explains your personal stance much better and I doubt many would disagree that having a high risk birth at home is irresponsible. Your orginal article was just plain nasty.
As for Caitlin Moran, I really dont see what the fuss is about. I read her book and was incredibly dissapointed. Again seemed so simplistic and uninformed. Saying if you have a vagina then you are a feminist is absolutely meaningless.
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Mia was only mocking birthing women who put their need for control and their experience over the professional experience of their caregivers and their baby. It was in no way an attack on anyone who has a birth plan. Only those who define themselves by their birth experiences and think they know better than people whose job it is to bring babies into the world.
As for Caitin Moran, I was underwhelmed by her book as well. But only because I thought a lot of it was pretty obvious. If you possess a vagina and don’t want to get treated like shit because of said vagina, that does make you a feminist.
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Oddsocks you articulated my thoughts exactly. Way to have a respectful disagreement/discussion. I love Mia and her websites but this time I do believe she has gone too far. No person deserves to be labelled and ridiculed for the choices they make and there is a difference between doing this and simply respectfully disagreeing.
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Mia, it is ridiculous to argue that your newspaper column was about homebirthers only. The opening was about a woman at a bbq who you wanted to stab because she had a birth plan and erroneously assumed you might want to hear about it, being a mother and all.
The problem with writing vague, generalised and bitchy name-calling posts is that people are going to be offended. It’s a shame you don’t spend time thinking about what they are saying, rather than trying to name and shame them on your website, as you did with Anne Summers.
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That was not exactly what was written, Cara. Mia did not say she wanted to stab the woman, she said she wanted to stab herself with a sausage, which was a humorous way of expressing her frustration. Also, the woman was not talking about a general birth plan, but a birth plan for her placenta. With all due respect, that version is a lot less aggressive than the way you have interpreted the article.
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It is entirely normal for a birth plan to include various options for the 3rd stage of labour – delivery of the placenta.
I was quoting the use of the word stab which seemed unnecessarily aggressive to me too!
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No, you were misquoting to make it sound more dramatic and harsh than it was.
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what is it with ‘birth plans’ anyway? Why do we need a plan? Birth is a natural process. Do we have poo plans? Period plans? Sex plans? Honestly, just go with the flow and remember that the most important thing is your and your baby’s safety. It seems that most birth plans get thrown out the window anyway and people are left disappointed.
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i pretty much had a birth plan like Mia described which after labour started i laughed at because of the stupidity of “my birth plan”. NOWHERE did i mention my placenta, nor did we talk about placentas at birthing classes so i don’t class that as normal at all.
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Me too Elizabeth!! I liked Mia’s article, I related to it very much – it is nearly impossible to predict or control what happens during birth. I was just so thankful that my 3 bubs and myself all came out of it healthy and alive! And I am grateful to our doctors, midwives and hospitals for their assistance – there is no way I would want to do it alone!
And the truth is, now they are all at school, and we are dealing with all the issues and dilemmas that come with that, I have never once given a thought to my placentas!!
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Kym, your choice of comparison is a bit off. Birth and pooping? Really??
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what I am saying is it is a natural process. i think many people are glorifying it into something more, something ‘spiritual’ or ‘powerful’. Well, maybe it is for some people but it is also a natural process that can very easily go wrong
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I get what Kym’s saying. NCB advocates carry on about how birth is natural and also in the same breath will talk about what a profound goddess like experience it is. It is natural, and often it needs a bit of help.
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You’re right about them both being natural processes! I’m not against viewing birth as spiritual or empowering, but I guess that’s where it can get tricky – if the experience didn’t live up to what was imagined, or to a set of standards.
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Kym, there are not numerous doctors, nurses, and other staff involves with poos, periods, and sex. A number of people who have conflicting policies, beliefs, assumptions, and preferences need to be informed of the preferences of the birthing woman, who is actually “allowed” to make her own care decisions based on her own opinions, research, beliefs, preferences, etc. While it isn’t possible to dictate what your body does (ie “I will dilate quickly”), it is possible to dictate what is done to you and your baby (ie “Do NOT perform a vaginal exam or otherwise touch me without asking first.” or “I do not consent to the artificial rupture of my membranes to augment labor without my express permission.”)
These preferences are put in a birth plan, with the express or implied caveat that emergencies do happen and should be handled as such. (I’m sure there are women who give no such caveat, but a tiny minority.) But so much of birth is not an emergency – and it is important to many women. Unfortunately, even when written down, they are often ignored despite a lack of emergency conditions, and women have to fight to get their most basic wishes respected. What are we supposed to do – grit our teeth and think of England? Why? So that we don’t appear ridiculous to people who don’t understand what birth plans are or why they exist?
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Karen – your comments on monitoring and whatnot. Yes, yes, yes and yes.
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Cara, as Alison pointed out, at no point did I – or would I – ever write about wanting to stab someone.
Good lord.
Name and shame? Please.
At least one of the women who tweeted me about that article used our tweets as part of her post on the subject on her own blog. And why shouldn’t she? It wasn’t a private conversation.
Twitter is a public forum. I accept that and if you want to engage with someone publicly, it’s there for all to see. Whether you’re Anne Summers or me or anyone else.
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Oh Mia, you always hit the nail on the head! That’s why you’re one of the women I admire, and why I keep coming back to MM. While I don’t agree with every opinion you hold, I love how you defend what you believe in with style.
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Completely agree with you Mia.
Thank you also for introducing me to the wonderful Catlin Moran.
I’m of the opinion that feminism is greatly misunderstood.
Unfortunately a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
To me it’s pretty simple. Treat everyone equally. Give everyone the same opportunities.
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I agree Mia. Speaking of home births here’s an interesting article I just read on twitter
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/25/home-birth-increasingly-popular-but-dangerous.html
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Siding with women simply because they are women isn’t feminism to me, it’s more like sexism. Gender shouldn’t dictate what views you express.
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I agree.
I’ve often been called ‘mysoginist’ purely because I disagree with women. Its more common in arguments with the hardline feminists. Its just a typical shaming tactic that people use to discount the arguments of others. In this case it was used against Mia.
‘Well you’re not a real feminist if you don’t agree with me’. Just another variation of ‘No True Scotsman’.
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I agree, Mia. And I guess I’d call myself a soft ‘f’ feminist. But you’re right! Being a feminist doesn’t mean being expected to agree with every female. Just as those Christians in last week’s gallery apologised for religious condemnnation of the LGBT community. One size doesn’t fit all.
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that’s an awesome example
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Being feminist isn’t about agreeing with everything that women do. Feminism is about empowering women to be considered as equal in society and to be of value. Feminism doesn’t mean bashing every man and just blindly accepting every decision that a woman makes to be valid. We wouldn’t do that for men and we also wouldn’t do it for social issues in general. I have a friend who had a home water birth and it was with a highly skilled midwife who explored all the pros and cons and also arranged a lot of follow up care. If she hadn’t taken all these education opportunities and arranged support and care afterwards I would have disagreed with her decision. That doesn’t make me unfeminist it just shows I have a brain and think things through regardless of gender.
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Word Mia, word. Well said.
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Might I suggest using more than one word Bec, as nice as that word ‘word’ is and all.
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The Wounded Bull, might I suggest you get over yourself?
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Admittedly she did use two ‘word’s
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Why does it matter how many words she used, pray tell?
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She said word then she said word again. That’s two words. Then she used two more. If the comment had been just ‘word’ then it would have made more sense than ‘word, Mia, word’. I looked up ‘word’ in Urban Dictionary and it means truth, so it makes sense but it also makes me think of US cop shows.
I thought it was unintentionally funny when I read it. I imagine that Wounded Bull thought it was entertaining when he read it as well so he commented, then someone told him to get over himself and well, there you go, another mini spat in the comments section for no real reason.
I’m sure all Bec meant was ‘yes, Mia, you’re right. I agree’ but instead now we’ve been sucked into this dissection of her comment, Wounded Bull’s interpretation and subsequent comment as well as Natski’s wish for WB to get over himself. Presumably he’ll need to clone himself and then get a ladder or some sort of climbing apparatus.
My head hurts.
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Or a bridge……
Maybe you need to “have a bex and a lie down” as my parents would say.
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Hey peoples, I had never heard the saying “word Mia word”. I was trying to be a tad lighthearted in response to this seemingly odd response. It was not intended as a personal attack, just a lighthearted jibe. Sheesh.
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hahahahaha I laughed out loud at your reply Wounded Bull.. don’t worry, it is quite an odd expression.
People need to lighten up for fecks sake. Does being a feminist = humourless?
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It’s happened on that thread about Grant Hackett too – apparently it’s unfeminist to question what happened and not jump straight to condemning him without considering that maybe his wife had played a part. It’s happened on other posts too. The birthzillas one was a belter – it’s not unfeminist to say that someone’s choice is diangerous. Is it unfeminist to say that a woman smoking is bad? Or drink driving? I commented on that Grant Hackett thread that I find it really disturbing that so many “feminists” are willing to jump on the male bashing bandwagon without question. That isn’t feminist, that’s just blinkered.
I’m a proud feminist – I don’t like it when people say “I’m not a feminist but…”, it shows a stunning disregard for the history of women in our society. But to be a feminist and to demand equal respect also means that you’re open to the same scrutiny as men. Something people seem unable to handle for some reason.
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I agree profoundly.
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So agree with you, not just here but a lot of your comments on other threads!
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i agree!! man bashing is just as lame as woman bashing!!
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Wonder if the Twitter critics will see this and comment.
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For me it’s a good reminder of how tweets can be used. I use twitter to engage with people, but I’ll think twice.
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In fairness to Mia she’s already stated that one of the people she mentioned had used the tweets as part of a blog entry.
Once it’s out there you’ve got no control over it. That’s why I tweet under a nickname.
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I pretty much agree with Mia and Catilin Moran on what feminism is / isn’t, but I definitely feel like supporting each other as women is part of it. Not ALL women, but also not just women who have the exact world view as us.
Thinking about it though, I think Mia does this pretty well. Remember the Delta post? What about Yumi Stines? Both women were getting unfair, sexist, hurtful judgement thrown at them all over the internet and Mia stood to be a voice of reason. She also has been very clear about her views on abortion, stay at home mum / working mum and its obvious her views don’t “join w/ paternalistic system” but rather “women’s choice” which is the foundation of feminism, isn’t it? One post about the dangers of home birth and people say she’s a shit feminist? Come on!
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Mia if you reply to every ‘hater’ on Twitter questioning your feminist views I don’t know how you get anything else done!!!
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But iit is a fact of life that some topics are gender specific!!! It is when you remove choice from a women on the basis that she is female that you undermine equality.
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Simmilarly I don’t understand the automatic assumption that any women with public profile is a symbol and guardian of the feminist movement. Equality is the objective, and that extends to scrutiny no matter what sex they are.
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Yes, feminism is about promoting equality. It does not mean you have to agree with a woman’s opinions or choices just because she is female. Mia you are a great feminist!
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I think if the Birthzilla article was written how you spoke about it here, nobody would be suggesting it wasn’t a feminist article. What you have here is perfectly reasonable: high risk babies and mothers need lots of looking after – nobody (except a very small group of free-birthers) is disagreeing with this.
The issue people had with the Birthzilla article, was that you were seeming to suggest that anyone who had any plans about their birth were being a bit crazy. You lumped water births in with free births. I understand that this may not have been your intention, but it did seem to be insulting to a lot of women (including me).
Having control over our own bodies, and especially something as essentially female as childbirth is so important to feminism. Instigating “mummy wars” (which I realise may not have been your intention) seems utterly un-female-friendly.
To me feminism is about empowering women. Choice is hugely important, and ofcourse it’s totally ok to disagree with other feminists (I do too). But I guess feminism has to mean more than just choice. It has to be about looking out for each other too.
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In the Birthzillas article and also the post regarding freebirthing/homebirthingI don’t think Mia was being critical of women having choice and empowerment over their bodies per se, more so that in her opinion some choices may not have been in the best interests of the child (or the mother) if things went wrong. Maybe some of us have developed a heightened expectation that our freedom of having choice and individual empowerment overrides sensibility.
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Yes, and when written like you have done here Ladybug, it could be an interesting discussion. I think perhaps the reason the Birthzilla article was so heavily criticised was because it was somewhat inflammatory, it involved namecalling for instance. Were it written in a more thoughtful, considered style, perhaps that would have resulted in a very different set of comments.
I have a feeling that Mia and a lot of the commenters on that article actually would actually agree pretty closely with each other, if they were to start the discussion over with nobody feeling like they had to defend themselves to begin with.
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Thank you for a very measured well thought through response that helped me see a different angle.
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re: the 2nd twitter conversation – OT: Dick Smith – you’re being very silly.
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Totally agree with you, Mia. Maybe we just need to disband with the term ‘feminist’ in favour of a label like ‘equality advocate’. Too many people assume feminist = acceptance / advocation of all things female.
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Or that feminism = misandry.
I dislike/disagree with misogynists, not men.
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I’m a humanist with feminist tendencies…..
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I am with you twomummies.
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My gosh! Do the ill-informed comments you receive on a daily basis drive you to distraction?
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Here’s a tip: You’re never gonna make everyone happy. Obviously there are a LOT of women out there who are a little confused about what it is to be a feminist. I’m a feminist but I can tell you that my alligence to the vaginaed (sp?) race does not cross over to supporting stupidity, nastiness or corruptness conducted by women.
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PS Keldie needs to learn how to constuct arguements in 140 letters or less…or get off Twitter.
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That’s part of my love of twitter – wanting to say something and figuring out how to do it in under 140 characters. It’s quite a skill!
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Did you read my tweets or just note that there were a lot of them?
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Eh? I just said that I liked Twitter because I like the challenge of saying something in 140 characters. It IS quite a challenge and skill.
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If it really is just about equality and justice, why not identify as a humanist or equalist mia. As soon as you identify with a movement whos very name is gender specific, you have to expect many followers to assume an ‘us vs them’ mentality re everything.
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Bit it is a fact of life that some topics are gender specific!!! It is when you remove choice from a women on the basis that she is female is when you undermine equality.
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I prefer to be seen as someone that looks out for disadvantage wherever it be found.
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If you don’t want to apply the term to yourself, that’s fine. But why does it bother you what Mia calls herself?
And if you call yourself ‘humanist’, then the same people who criticise Mia for not supporting Gina R, could criticise you for not supporting something done by any human being.
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Hmm, this comment seems to stem from the very backward idea that feminism is in any way related to man-hating. If someone hears the word “feminist” and immediately thinks of this “us vs them” mentality that you’re referring to, I think it says a lot more about them than it does about feminists.
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(And I just wanted to mention that I have lots of male friends who identify as feminist. It’s not a club that they’re not allowed into because they’re guys.)
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So if I labelled myself a masculinist Catherine, you would automatically assume I would be someone that looked out for injustice against women just as much as men? Or would you assume I was someone with a biased view of gender issues.
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How would you view (a) someone who declared an interest in fighting for indigenous rights; and (b) someone who wanted to fight for white power?
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There are probably billions of men in the world more disadvantaged than you lulu. Thanks for demonstrating how blinkered hardline feminism is.
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“There are probably billions of men in the world more disadvantaged than you”
I never said there weren’t. And thanks for proving my point.
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Well by dictionary definition, a masculinist advocates for the rights of men. That’s not the same thing as oppressing women. Just as advocating women’s rights doesn’t mean stripping men of their rights. I think we just hear the word ‘feminist’ more because historically, the progression of women’s rights has been slower.
One of the reasons I identify with feminism is because I personally believe that quite often, when you oppress women, you’re also being quite insulting to men and assuming the worst of them. And I’m not ok with that.
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