Keep it ‘classy’, insists Kochie.
BY MIA FREEDMAN
Oh Kochie. Kochie, Kochie, Kochie.
Thank you, I guess. It’s never a bad thing to remind people of the olden days, when men were men and women were……mostly invisible.
When the only depiction of breasts that was acceptable was the sexy kind. When the idea of a woman using her bosom to feed her baby was….you know….yucky.
It’s good to remember those times because it’s a reminder of how utterly absurd they were. And how anyone who still thinks that way is, well, old. Or at least, old fashioned to the point of being way out of step with modern attitudes.
So Kochie, I guess we shouldn’t be THAT surprised by your attitude……
Responding to a story on Friday’s Sunrise breakfast program about Liana Webster, the Bribie Island woman who was forced to leave her local pool after a complaint was made about her breast feeding in public.
Yes. She had the AUDACITY to feed her hungry baby with her own body. At which point Kochie opened his mouth and inserted first one foot and then the other.
“I totally think women should be able to breastfeed in public but I just think they should be a bit classy about it.”
He has two breastfeeding daughters, he points out. But he says if they breastfeed in restaurants, they turn their chairs around.
His problem, he says, is with ‘high traffic areas’. I have no idea what that actually means unless he doesn’t want women to breastfeed in the middle of a road for safety reasons. But I don’t think that’s what he meant.
Here I am breastfeeding in my lounge room, a low traffic area. PHEW.
As I’ve written previously, with over three years of breastfeeding on my CV (not consecutively and not of the same child), there’s not a public place where I haven’t breastfed or expressed. Beaches, planes, shopping centres, parks, airports, restaurants, BBQs, offices, cafes, meetings, parties, weddings, funerals, churches, synagogues…and frankly, I couldn’t care less who was watching.
Oddly enough, I tended to prioritise my baby’s immediate needs over the Elizabethan prudishness of people who have a problem with boobs being used for their natural function. I’m zany like that.
When I’m breastfeeding, my breasts are about as sexual to me as a bowl of Weet Bix. Because that’s exactly what they represent to my baby. Sustenance. Not sex.
I also find the term ‘public breastfeeding’ amusing. Those who oppose it (or express the need for it to remain ‘classy’) always exude a fearful, vaguely alarmed vibe, as if there are groups of marauding mothers using their babies as an excuse to flash their lactating breasts in strangers’ faces: “I know! Let’s meet at Westfield! The first person to flash their leaky nipple to 100 shoppers wins a toasted sandwich!”
As for the suggestion by some that breastfeeding should happen in toilets, I totally agree. As soon as those same people are happy to have their morning coffee made, served and drunk in a toilet cubicle, we shall happily breastfeed right alongside them.
And using ‘mothers’ rooms’ (which tend to be ghastly places), isn’t always possible, particularly if you have more than one child.
My other favourite thing is when people say mothers should be discreet. Or ‘classy’ as Kochie put it.
This is also true. There are far too many breastfeeding women who brazenly strip naked to the waist in public each time their baby grizzles. Have you seen them throw their bosoms around with gay abandon while waving their arms in the air like they just don’t care?
What is wrong with these women? Why do they derive so much pleasure from being almost nude in public? Oh wait. They’re not and they don’t. Breastfeeding mothers feed our babies as quickly and quietly as possible because THEY ARE HUNGRY and SO THEIR CRIES DON’T DISTURB YOUR VERY IMPORTANT PUBLIC BUISNESS such as texting someone while you sip your skinny latte and flick through a newspaper in a coffee shop.
Selfish exhibitionists, yes we are.
If you’re interested, there’s a public ‘nurse-in’ outside the Sunrise studio on Monday morning. You can find details on this Facebook page.
Viva la boobies.
And these are pictures from the Nurse In protest in Sydney.
The Sunrise Nurse In.
Comments
792 Comments so far
Of course qomen should be able to breastfeed wherever they want, and guess what? They can! Who gives a s#!t what Kochie thinks? Move on, people.
Personally though seeing a massive boob whipped out does make me a little uncomfortable and I chose to cover up when feeding my daughter.
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Preface – I am not a parent:
I really honestly could not care less if I see a bit of boob, while a baby is being fed. I don’t understand how anyone views it as offensive in the slightest.
I can’t remember the last time I saw any nursing mother shouting “Oi, everyone, look at my jubblies!” while trying to feed her child. I’m sure every nursing mother would also LOVE for there to be lovely private air conditioned rooms with big comfy chairs and some soothing music, all over the place to feed while not at home – but they don’t exist, so the job has to be done wherever is most comfortable for mother and baby.
What offends me is chicks walking around in micro demin shorts _ I’ll happily have a stranger breastfeed her baby at the next table at the cafe, rather than see random ass cheek at Westfield…
Oh, and ladies – STOP slamming eachother, PLEASE – What hope have we for a sisterhod when we continue to wage personal on topics like this ?
United we should stand…
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“Oh, and ladies – STOP slamming eachother, PLEASE”
Just slam the young ‘uns who like to wear short shorts. That’s totally acceptable.
[For the record, I agree with you, but it's a bit of a black kettle high horse you're riding]
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So all women must think alike? Does that mean all men must think alike too? Maybe I should reconsider my position on breastfeeding and side with Koch after all? Solidarity brothers! But no, I think I’ll stick with being an independent thinker who’s open to the ideas and opinions of others.
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Who gives a crap what Kochie thinks anyway? I don’t think Kochie is a reliable critic. The idea of seeing a woman breastfeeding in public will make men nervous. But when a baby is hungry, its hungry. Still labelling men as dinosaurs for voicing a true opinion that they are not necessarily comfortable with it, is not fair, and Mia is ranting on this page because she is justifiably angry. Yep, breastfeeding is the right of baby and mother, but don’t expect me to act like I’m not seeing a bare breast in public.
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I cant believe that this is a topic for discussion. There are bigger dramas in the world.
Women feed your babies, feed them the best way you can, breast, bottle, both, whatever. And do what you feel comfortable with, private or public.
To the rest of society that want women to be “discreet”, stop being so bloody precious and hypocritical.
I think people, kids, teenagers, men should all see the reality of having a baby. They need to be fed. Maybe I should ask people with disgusting table manners to be more discreet. I dont want to see them feeding while I’m relaxing.
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Is it just me – perhaps polluted by too long in the media – or does the Kochie comment not resemble a clever bit of pot-stirring to ensure the TV ratings year begins with everyone talking about Seven’s “Sunrise” not Nine’s “TODAY”? As one former commercial TV lion used to say – “divide the nation, multiply the ratings.”
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Good to have another perspective, thanks Hugh.
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I think you are on to something there Hugh….when ratings are low, do something or say something stupid to get people mentioning Sunrise. Just look at how well all the hashtags trended on Twitter!
Out of interest, does anyone know the exact circumstances that triggered the lady in question being asked to cover up or move on? I’ve noticed the comments in a couple of articles mentioning that the lady was feeding “in the pool”. Not on the embankment or in a seat, but in the pool itself. As far as OHS would be concerned, that would be an issue. (I know breast milk is fine, but it is still bodily fluids being excreted into a shared public pool – in today’s litigious society, that’s a lawsuit waiting to happen :/)
Like a lot of stories that get the “slashdot effect”, it would be interesting to know what the original story was before Kochie opened his trap!
Disclaimer – I’m fine with breastfeeding anywhere. Its natural, my wife did it with both my children.
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Bodily fluids in the pool? I’d rather swim through breastmllk than a stray, expelled booger!
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Quite possibly. Watch the Today Show people – it’s better anyway!
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Or ABC Breakfast. Far and away better than the other two.
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I’d watch Breakfast if they didn’t take turns reading the same stories. He starts, she finishes. She starts, he finishes. Frustrating, jarring and contrived – and for what purpose? Equality?
I just surf now and watch the bits that interest me, whichever channel they’re on.
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Now that I can quote word for word every funeral and life insurance ad that appears I don’t watch any of them……I stick to good old 702am
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Here is some info from the NSW Attorney General website which I think is very relevant: “It is also generally against the law to tell you not to breastfeed or express milk in any of the situations listed under “When does this law apply?”. For example, it could be against the law to tell you not to breastfeed at a sporting facility such as a gym or swimming pool, at a cinema or club, in a shopping mall, in a restaurant or in an aeroplane”
The link is here: http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/adb/ll_adb.nsf/pages/adb_breastfeeding
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Go Mia! I’m due again in two weeks so have been thinking about starting bf’ing again; obviously now wondering how exactly to make sure I’m classy at all times while doing it! I actually never really enjoyed breastfeeding in public because I’ve always felt very shy about being semi-naked in front of strangers but I realised quickly that more people actually noticed and were bothered by a screaming, starving baby.
As for using a blanket, that’s fine in theory, if you live in a really cold place where the baby won’t get heat stroke. I tried to use one and it was such a disaster because no one could see what they were doing (me or bub), in any case the whole process was punctuated by periods of “blanketless” anyway so it probably defeated the purpose; I get the impression the anti-boob brigade would mark me down for anything but a 100% flesh free performance, regardless of the degree of difficulty!
Finally, parents rooms are pretty yucky places, not just because they smell like old dirty nappies. I was feeding #1 in one alone once when a man came in, child free, and filled up his water bottle while showing a huge amount of interest in what I was doing. I thought it was a little odd at first but just felt unsafe when he took a sip of the water and then tipped it all out again and explained that he was going to fill the bottle up from another tap now. No panic button, no one else around and quite vulnerable with nothing but a six week old between me and a weird pervert in a room with locked doors really made me reassess the safety of those rooms and, despite wanting to stay “classy”, after that I stuck to breastfeeding in public, high traffic areas when we needed to. Kochie’s comments are so disappointing.
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O my god – I cant believe a man came in to the Parents room to fill up a water bottle and stayed there whilst you were breastfeeding. That would have been quite creepy.
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i went into a parents room to feed my baby once and there were 3 men in their 20′s smoking in there…. i feel the same way, a private room in a public place can be very unsafe
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Surely there are more important things going on in the world than this?
This is a storm in a teacup, fed by a somewhat inflammatorily worded post.
I sincerely wish the post on the rape on the bus in India got this many comments!!
IMAGINE WHAT US STRONG, AMAZING WOMEN COULD ACHIEVE IF WE BANDED TOGETHER AND CONCENTRATED OUR FOCUS RATHER THAN WASTING HOURS AND INTERNET SPACE ON ATTACKING EACH OTHER’S PERSONAL CHOICES???
Is this really important in the big scheme of things???
We breastfeed for such a tiny part of our lives. How or where we choose to do it DOES NOT DEFINE US and is definitely not worthy of this much outrage!!!
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Spot on! I was trying to come up with the words to express how I felt but your post says it all.
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This is a blog about all sort of issues surrounding women today. I think it’s a very relevant post. We can’t always talk world peace.
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Do we ever talk about world peace?
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Sound comment Chrissy. On the day Mamamia posted an intelligent and relevant article about the rape in India, another post about pet rescue and euthanasia were dominated by comments of outrage indicating that people who buy from dog breeders rather than pet shelters directly cause the oversupply of pets, and therefore contribute to pets being abandoned.
I agree our energies are sometimes better directed elsewhere.
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After watching sunrise for the first time this morning, purely for the nurse in, kochie has made me extremely angry in a number of ways. They are as follows:
He had a very condescending attitude in the lead up to the segment. I hated all the little jokes and sniggers. As though they were saying ‘those funny little breastfeeding mothers getting on their high horse again, they can be so silly sometimes’. I wish the whole thing could have been given the serious attention it deserves.
I HATED that it seemed to come as a surprise to him that telling women to act more discreetly was making them feel shameful. How could he not see that?!
It frustrates me that he and others just can’t accept that women are not out their flashing their breasts for the fun of it. The nipple is so rarely seen as it is in the baby’s mouth. If there is something about the breastfeeding process that offends kochie or anyone else, they are the one with the problem and they need to ask themselves what exactly is making them so uncomfortable.
It makes me feel sick to have an old man on television thinking it is okay to coach women on how they should behave when doing something that is completely natural and necessary. It is never a mans place to tell a breastfeeding woman to be discreet and classy.
WHO recommends breastfeeding for a minimum of 2 years. How are we ever meant to achieve this and encourage this when it seems so much of society thinks it is wrong/disgusting/needs to be hidden or done in private.
How did attitudes about something so normal get to this point?
I loved this article. Thank you.
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I completely support women breastfeeding, whenever and where ever they need to and I think it’s awesome that people have stood up about this issue but here’s the problem for me – you watched Sunrise for the first time this morning? So did a lot of other people. That’s great news for Sunrise. They don’t care that we are angry, we’re giving them ratings and media coverage and that’s the only thing they care about. Kochie is an ambulance chasing presenter on a commercial, morning television show. His opinion shouldn’t mean a thing to any of us. So I am really torn because yes, it’s so important that we push back against these outdated opinions but I feel like all people have done is given him more air-time.
Maybe switching off is a more powerful message?
http://thegoogleyear.blogspot.com.au/
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Hi bea,
I know exactly what you mean! I was so torn too!! I had a discussion with my husband about not watching it as I didn’t want to give any support to the show. He thought it was better to watch so then we knew the entire argument. Agree totally with your point. Such a frustrating dilemma.
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For years I have been under the impression that only a select amount of tvs have ratings monitors on them and the numbers recorded are multiplied. Very confused.
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My husband also pointed that fact out to me, until he did that I was under the impression our tvs sent some sort of magic message to the tv stations telling them our viewing history. Now I think about it, that is completely absurd. Very confusing indeed!
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I find myself weighing in yet again on this subject; the subject of breastfeeding.
Instead of going on a mad rant, I’ll jot my thoughts down in point form.
- One big point people seem to have missed is that it is discriminatiion to ask a woman to remove herself or cover herself up while breastfeeding her baby.
There are laws in place to protect women, their babies and the very likelihood of breastfeeding.
- If you’ve never breastfed a baby, you truly do not understand just how difficult it can be to be “discreet” or in Kochie’s words “classy”, especially when you have a screaming, hungry and irrational newborn. They simply do not know how to wait, and nor should they, again, breastfeeding is to benefit THEM not the mother, or anyone else.
It’s a selfless act, a natural & primal act between mother and child to nourish the child and soothe their appetite.
Anyone who expects a mother to remove herself from view, or cover herself & her baby up to satifsfy their own personal issues with breasts, quite frankly, is being completely selfish. If you have an issue with seeing breasts look away.
If you don’t like someones make-up or clothing, look away.
- As a mother of three who breastfed all three, I cannot explain to you how difficult it can be to attach a screaming baby to your breast while trying to remain “discreet”. There were many occasions on which I may have flashed a bit of areola, and God forbid, some nipple in the direction of onlookers, never on purpose, and more often than not I was incredibly embarrassed and almost felt apologetic towards those who copped an eyefull, but at the end of the day, it’s really just a bit of boob right?
I mean, if you accept breasts in other contexts, like mens magazines, on the beach in barely-there bikinis, and even on television, surely you wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a woman innocently feeding her hungry baby would you?
- Most women who breastfeed are discreet, do they really want strange people seeing their breasts on purpose?
It’s not a peepshow, it’s the natural act of breastfeeding right?
- The suggestion on Kochie’s behalf that women should be more “classy” about it makes them sound as if they’re wearing boobie tassels and waving them around like stark raving mad lunatics.
How many arms do people think mothers have? We have two, just like most humans, holding a baby, while trying to attach them to the breast, then trying to juggle a blanket and cover up one-armed without disrupting the feeding process ALL for the benefit of those who have a problem?
Seems like a lot of trouble when all they have to do is turn the other cheek.
- People commenting saying “grow up” or “move on” are forgetting that people are often passionate about certain subjects, for me it is breastfeeding and childbirth.
It’s important to me as a fellow woman, that I use my voice to advocate for subjects and issues I am passionate about.
Some people feel same-sex marriage is an important issue, some want to live in a world free of racism, it’s is important to discuss these issues in depth.
How are people to understand without perspective?
- Kochie is a public figure, he needs to be responsible for his words.
The breastfeeding rates in the country are dwindling, especially beyond 6 months of age, you can’t help but feel comments that do not support breastfeeding as a whole, misinformation and a lack of education regarding the topic as a whole are somewhat responsible for the lowering rates.
Which is why it is important for advocates to stand up and speak out which is what breastfeeding mothers and their supporters are doing right now.
Is Kochie a bad person for having an opinion? Absolutely not.
Is he a moron? No.
Are his views on breastfeeding outdated? I say yes.
You would never ask a person of colour to remove themselves or cover themselves because you’re not comfortable with their ethnicity would you?
Because that would be racism.
Just like suggesting a woman cover her baby while feeding because “you don’t like seeing some skin” would be discriminating.
I simply do not see how breastfeeding is offensive.
At times if you see a bit more skin than you felt comfortable with, chances are it was just as awkward for the mother, although some mothers don’t care, because all as far as theyre concerned they’re just feeding their baby, and they’re just breasts ‘beign used for their purpose right?
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perfectly put… i love this!
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Wow you are spot on. Well said!
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I’m not “in the club” as i haven’t yet had children. But I have plenty of new mummy friends who happy feed their little ones while we are out and I think it’s wonderful they feel comfortable doing so. If you want to feed in public, go for it. If you want to cover up, your choice. If you don’t, your choice. Mia, not all of us non-parents are latte sipping idiots whom resent the presence of mothers and their children. In fact some us are your biggest supporters.
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So you think it would just be men who see breasts as sexual only. Wrong.
I have a 4yo son and an 18mo son, the younger is still breast feeding whenever he wants it or whenever my wife wants to bond, or just release so tension. I love it that she does. What I’m not a huge fan of is the fact that if she’s home the bra just ends up on our lounge and stays there until I clean up. But that’s not what my story is about.
My 4yo son is obsessed by the Wiggles. On Saturday morning whilst I was getting him breakfast and cleaning the lounge room (picking up my wife’s discarded bra from the night before) my son asked me “what songs will the new Wiggles sing?” (Stick with me, this is on topic). I said that they’ll sing the same songs but might have to change some lyrics.
I started singing Big Red Car… “Emma’s in the front seat, she’s taking off her bra…” It wasn’t sexual. Sure it could be taken as sexual, but this was to my 4yo AND I had just picked up my wife’s bra of the lounge in front of him and she took it off the night before to feed the little one.
“Daddy, don’t be silly. The Wiggles don’t wear bras,” came his response. I explained to him that Emma, just like Mummy would wear a bra because women tend to do that, especially when doing physical activities like dancing on stage. He accepted that.
Later on Saturday afternoon I was leaving my brother’s house after my boys played with his almost 4yo twins. I brought my trailer as I was doing some handy man work at our rental property and in the trailer was my youngest son’s Little Tykes red car. My brother said to my toddler “who as a big red car like the Wiggles?”
So then I told the story that I just wrote to my brother and his wife. To my shock his wife said that she didn’t think I should teach my 4yo sexual things. “What sexual things?” I asked.
“Bras.”
Wow. Bras are sexual?
She is famous in our family for coming up with outlandish things like this. So I grilled her…
“What is sexual about bras?”
“Taking them off is about sex.”
Hmmmm.
“So when my wife takes off her bras to feed our youngest that’s about sex?”
“No., but…”
“I take it you’re wearing a bra now. Tonight when you go to bed I guess you’ll take it off. Does that mean you’re going to have sex. Every night when you take your bra off to get ready for bed does my brother get sex every night. Is he the world’s luckiest man?”
“No, but…”
It is attitudes like this, not just Kochie’s, but my sister-in-law attributing underwear with sex that is making the women breastfeeding in public an issue.
I shook my head in disbelief. Of course later that night when my wife got home from work I told her the story. It didn’t surprise her of my SIL’s stupid remarks. It did however sadden her that she thinks that way.
Emma Watkins (the new Yellow wiggle) is only young. She’s enjoying travelling with the Wiggles right now. But this is my hope for her. In the next decade or so, when she’s ready to have a child of her own I hope that the world has grown up and she can take her bra off, or just slip it to the side, anywhere; in the Big Red Car, in a park, at a public pool, anywhere she wants to feed her baby.
And there will be nothing sexual about that…
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I loved this bit! “Every night when you take your bra off to get ready for bed does my brother get sex every night. Is he the world’s luckiest man?”
Go Darrell.
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because I’m going to sound like a prude here just like your sister in law but thinking and singing about a 24 year old girl in a kids entertainment group taking off her bra in their big red car I find a little bit weird……
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Yeah … bizarre because what you are doing is teaching your child to see that woman as a sum of her body parts and yes it is sexualised because for heaven’s sake what other relevance could it have? Weird and also the way that misogynist values are passed on.
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i am teaching my son to respect women and he will do this as I do. I can understand why you and anyone who has given the thumbs up to your comment have suggested that I have sexualised Emma with my comment, but it was not a sexual comment to me.
There are so many times I say to my boy “quick, let’s clean up the lounge room… take this tea towel and Mummy’s bra into the laundry” and that can hardly be seen as sexualising my wife for the fact that she wears a bra.
My wife on many occasions says to him “come help Mummy unhook her bra.” That isn’t exposing him to something sexual, is it?
There are many occasions when our youngest is getting a little annoyed with something and our eldest says “Mummy, I think (insert my youngest kid’s name) needs some boob.” She taught him that. Not sexual.
He loves to sit there and watch her breast feed. I think that together we are raising boys who won’t “go all Kochie” on a breastfeeding woman.
And please don’t think that any of what I have said would somehow be misogynistic, not by any stretch of the imagination.
Whilst I (a man) was cooking my son breakfast, was (still being a man) cleaning the lounge room, blah, blah, blah…..
If I wanted to be misogynistic I would have suggested to my son that he go get Mummy to do the cooking, go get Mummy to do the house cleaning….
Lastly, whilst watching TV last night he saw the advertisement that shows two women bouncing on workout balls wearing bras. He said to me “Mummy should get one of them.” I thought he was talking about the sports bra. My wife entered the room just as the advert was finishing to hear him turn to her and say “Mummy, you need to get one of those bouncing balls to sit on.”
I don’t think I’m poisoning his mind.
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Mmmmmmm, I’m confused. I never thought you were being misogynistic (btw,I didn’t even know what that word meant, I had to look that word up since it seems to be banded around with great abandon lol) I just thought it was a bit weird that you would sing a song to your kid about some 24 year old chick taking her bra off in a car in my experience that does usually lead to sex…….(remember the rhyme when we were little – Ooh ahh I lost my bra, I left it in my boyfriend’s car).breast feeding is not the only thing that you do with boobs lol (and Darren I’m trying to be a bit light hearted about this)
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my partner has done the same thing, and is also probably fed up of picking up my bras from the lounge or wherever (and I don’t even breastfeed!)
I don’t see your comments as sexual, or teaching a child to see ‘woman as a sum of her body parts’, but maybe highlighting the difference between women and men. That was not a woman-hating comment (ie misogynistic)
And God forbid we muck around with our kids and don’t make every single moment an educational experience….
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You’ve got it all wrong. There are many times when we are driving places that my wife will say to me “can you unhook my bra” and I guess that it is giving her some sort of discomfort. I feel for you women who have to wear it, even when it might be restricting you or making you feel uncomfortable. My children are privy to my wife asking this.
Once she has taken off her bra we don’t make out in front of the kids, we don’t “work on the next child” in front of the kids, we don’t do anything untoward. So how do they see her taking off her bra, her asking me to assist her in unhooking her bra, or their mother getting comfortable as a sexual thing?
And it is exactly what I said in my original piece. Attributing bras (and other underwear) with sex is sexualising it, but accepting it in our everyday lives is not.
I bought new underwear the other day. I handed them to the girl at the checkout. I hope she didn’t read anything into this. Just my undies…
So Emma has every right, whilst sitting in the Big Red Car to get comfortable in my book, and also in my son’s book too. He didn’t say “don’t be silly Daddy, all the other Wiggles are married or in relationships with other people.” He didn’t say “don’t be silly Daddy, the Wiggles can’t make out on stage in front of everyone.” He didn’t attribute what I said to sex as he doesn’t know about sex or the sexualisation of women.
He baths naked with his cousins. They know they have different body parts to one another. They don’t point these out as sexual parts, just different parts.
I seriously think opening my child’s eyes to the world, teaching him that women need bras not to HIDE their breasts (“why would they need to hide them Daddy?” Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?), but to protect them when doing physical activity (as suggested on that TV advert) is a good thing.
If after explaining this I am still wrong, tell me. I want to know. I visit this site regularly to find out how I am supposed to be as a man, what I am supposed to say, how I am supposed to look at women, not look at women, talk to them, not talk to them.
It is all getting very confusing.
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Don’t worry Darrell, it sounds like you are doing just fine!
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This is the best comment I have read in days of reading articles about “Kochiegate”.
Darrell Milton you’re a deadset legend and sound like an incredible father. If you don’t already write for Mamamia I do hope that they would possibly consider asking you to, I am a new fan and would love to read more.
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I have written for Mamamia once before but didn’t log in as me as for some reason the Wi-Fi I was using this morning had weird restrictions and I couldn’t even log into my Gmail account. But enough about that…
http://www.mamamia.com.au/members/darrellmilton/profile/
I was also asked this morning to write for another website that is for parents but is 99.99% used by mothers with the occasional contribution by dads. They told me that most guys are simply trolling and eventually get banned and I find that sad (not that they are banned as they most probably went against the site’s terms and conditions, but because I can only hazard to guess that they said rude or discriminative things about the mothers who have been reaching out to the cyberverse for help).
I will be launching my own blog shortly once I get a decent body of work but you can follow me on Twitter until then.
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Thank you. It is good to hear positive feedback.
I have written one story, not really an opinion piece as such, and it started as a late night joke on Twitter with Kate Hunter.
You can find it here http://www.mamamia.com.au/author/darrellmilton/
I have just been asked today by another website like this to write for them on a father’s perspective of raising children and the like. I am a regular contributor to their advice forum even though most questions start with “dear mummies, I need help with…” and are always followed up with “thanks for the advice ladies” even when my advice gets the most thumbs ups.
But I digress. I just love writing, even if my opinion isn’t that of everyone else’s, it is just what I am thinking and hopefully someone agrees.
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Sorry for the duplication. I did one from my phone and it said it didn’t work so when I got to my tablet I tried again and now they both appear.
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That was awesome darrell. Thanks for your words. Would definitely enjoy reading more from you.
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Your wife must be the luckiest women in the world.
You clean up the lounge room?!
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Saturday night was spent watching the tennis, having a beer and sweeping the dining room and lounge room, putting away the toys and washing down both the leather lounges. Surely I wasn’t the only guy doing this…
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I’m not a mother so I’ve never had to deal with this, but a lot of my friends are and knowing their breastfeeding stories has changed my view.
I’ve never had a problem with breastfeeding but was always slightly uncomfortable when women didn’t use some kind of wrap to cover up what was going on. Not because I’m worried about seeing boobs – god you see them everywhere in every magazine, ad, tv show etc. More because it seems such an intimate moment between a mother and baby.
But after having friends with tongue tied kids who struggled to latch, babies who would instantly fall asleep and stop feeding if covered and a myriad of other issues I now completely understand why you wouldn’t have a cover. And I have to say as I’ve seen more people doing it and carrying on a perfectly normal conversation at the same time I’ve got so used to it, it doesn’t bother me in the least. It has also changed in my mind from some special tender moment, to something that just has to be done – and often.
I understand that some people may think like I used to. To them I would just say, you control what direction your eyes are pointing in, go point them somewhere else.
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This is reminiscent of the civil rights movement back in the 60s fighting for the right to be on a bus with white people only to be relegated to the back of the bus .
It was all about kochie this morning monopolising nearly the whole segment with how HE thinks mothers should behave . Disgusting pompous self serving gitt …….
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Whoa whoa whoa. I agree that we shouldn’t be putting up with women being discriminated against for breastfeeding – but it’s outrageous to compare this to the civil rights movement. People were beaten to death over the right to “be on a bus” – this woman was asked to cover up (and then apologised to). What happened to her isn’t ok, but by no way shape or form is it equivalent to what happened in America in the 1960′s.
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Definition ” Reminiscent ” Tending to remind one of something……
I think you have completely missed the point as with alot of other posts re the enormity of what his sentiments conveyed .
Like racism in the sixties , this is thrawt with sexism ……
Is the remark designed to make women (but not men) uncomfortable?
I think Bea and others should take this more seriously …….
Does the remark limit women’s (but not men’s) freedom of expression or behavior?
Is the remark likely to make those who hear it take women less than seriously because of their gender?
Could the remark also be applied to men and make sense?
Did his flippant comment make you feel uncomfortable and demeaned.
Does the remark make generalizations about individuals based on gender?
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Definition ; Reminiscent
Tending to remind one of something.
I can’t believe you took it literally and I can’t believe you are defending a passive aggressive sexist comment ” this women was asked to cover up ( and then apologised to ”
. Maybe this will clarify it a little :
Sexism ;
Is the remark designed to make women (but not men) uncomfortable?
Does the remark limit women’s (but not men’s) freedom of expression or behaviour?
Is the remark likely to make those who hear it take women less than seriously because of their gender?
Could the remark also be applied to men and make sense?
Make a woman feel uncomfortable and demeaned.
Does the remark make generalizations about individuals based on gender?
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Kochie’s attitude is normal for a prudish rather privileged elderly person. Fortunately the laws have changed. Far better he and his peers have to deal with being uncomfortable, than a mum and baby.
30 years ago when I breastfed, there were no parenting rooms, grotty or otherwise. The muslin cover was the done thing in public, but no-one made a fuss if you didnt use one. Nappies (cloth!!!) were changed in the pram, or on a blanket on benches or lawns using a flannel. There were no baby change tables in any public facilities.
At social gatherings there was less fuss about covering up than there is today. It was perfectly normal for both sexes to chat in a group with a couple of babies here and there having a feed.
Formula was considered expensive, and used as a last resort if breastfeeding didnt work. No-one was critical of bottle feeding, it wasnt considered a “lifestyle choice”.
My kids’ generation seems to have more hesitation about breastfeeding, I’m not sure if its the pressure to be sexy at all times (yummy mummy), the perceived convenience of shared feeding with bottles or what.
I can roll my eyes at Kochie’s comments, but my concern is that he hints that elderly men see breasts as sexual even when exposed for feeding, which is an insult to most men and downright creepy for women.
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Umm, I breastfed for almost two years. I don’t ever recall “flopping a boob out” as people like to so often say.
I’m sure Kochie’s remarks are taken out of context, but really, women.
If you don’t support other women in breastfeeding in public, how will we ever make it normal? Right now, it is more “normal” to feed your baby out of a bottle (I don’t give a toss what’s the in the bottle). It’s more acceptable to give an 12 month old a coke than it is to breastfeed them.
I’m so disappointed by the small minded comments on here. If it takes a village to raise a child then I fear for what my two year old will grow up learning in this village.
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Is this just an Australian thing? Can anyone tell me if it’s the same in Europe? I holidayed in Germany last year and there were topless women (and some naked women, and men, of every age and body shape) in parks and at the beach and everyone seemed fine with it. Is it equally acceptable to breastfeed in public over there? I don’t remember seeing any breastfeeding mothers but then I wasn’t looking for them.
A lot of people commenting have mentioned that they don’t like seeing exposed breasts. I’m wondering if it’s just because it’s something we’re not used to here. If people were to get over their discomfort at the sight of an uncovered breast would this issue go away or is it really about people not being comfortable with the act of breastfeeding rather than the breast itself?
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Europeans are known for their acceptance of nudity, it doesn’t bother them to either be nude or see nudity.
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But does public breastfeeding bother them?
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My Pal Sharon (Australian, married to a Frenchman) raised her three in France and tells me the attitude she encountered was very much: only tiny babies should be breastfed, and not in public. Husbands need their wives boobs back ASAP!
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That makes me so sad to hear Kate. Surely breasts are for babies first of all.
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I’m SURE that’s not all French women (or men) but Sharon told me that was the vibe she got – wean as soon as possible.
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Men regularly get their piece out to wee. Why isn’t that a topic of outrage? It’s beyond antisocial; it is a crimanal offence. Never hear about *that* issue, do we? C’mon Koshie. Surely that is far more offensive for young children to see? I live in a nice area and saw a man doing this in full view about 5pm in a small strip shopping carpark with nary a care who could see (all cars and people walking through in the carpark woudl’ve seen it too).
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Men take their tops off when it’s hot and have their NIPPLES on display too. Where’s the OUTRAGE about that? They’re the same things, just different shape.
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Well, I think that women should be a little bit classy and use the word ‘discreet’ discretely.
David Bowie agrees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1h5av2Bj0
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I’m all for sharing contrary points of view. I appreciate that some people’s views can trigger us.
I don’t agree with projecting our displeasure onto another target. There’s a big difference between stating ‘hearing this sent me through the roof in anger’ which is owning your own emotion, versus projecting it onto another so they have to cop it.
I would have preferred to have read an approach that got to the heart of it more, which may have been, ‘hearing comments like that by public figures worries me that we’re taking steps backwards in society….’
This post is riddled with sarcasm and personal attack i.e “So Kochie, I guess we shouldn’t be THAT surprised by your attitude……”
And seems designed to be sensationalist.
You have a huge following. My perception is that right now this is being leveraged an ugly way. Unite that following to condemn Kochie & anyone who agrees with him.
You’re better than that Mia.
For the record: I am completely comfortable with breast feeding in public. It’s really none of my business what another person does if it’s not not directly inflicting harm on another; and if I didn’t like what I saw, I’d turn the other way (not that I have). And I don’t think Kochie meant any harm.
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100% agree with above comment, disappointed with mamamia..
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Well said.
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Have some class and be discreet. End of story.
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as it is my legal right to breastfeed however and where ever i choose, avert your eyes or leave the area if it makes you so upset. end of story.
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I am a regular reader and commenter of this website. However I am quitting commenting, as of when I post THIS comment. I am also strongly considering quitting visiting the website at all. I am too scared these days to comment because of the fervency of readers and commenters either attacking each other, using aggressive tones, and then others applauding them via the ‘thumbs up’ icon, or even just the way readers get arced up – especially about relationships, parenting choices and lifestyle decisions of others. I am tired of the judgemental tones on the site, and the smugness. There are definitely good things here – support and advice, however it is far outweighed by angry, venting, defensive opinions. THIS topic, for example, is an important one (and clearly popular with 540+ comments) but I am afraid to weigh in on it because the vultures will no doubt swoop – and it may not even be for my opinion but just the phrases used or the words or language I choose. I am tired of being and seeing comments get picked to the bone. I am sorry to feel this way but it is TAKING my energy nowadays, rather than inspiring and motivated. It is less frustrating to watch players take one another down on WWE – and I don’t even like wrestling. I am over watching commenters fight to their verbal deaths on Mamamia as if most important but everyday topics are life and death. As if one person has any clue what is the right choice or opinion in the life of another MM reader they’ll never meet. It isn’t healthy debate it is manipulation and a showdown, and it’s not amusing or comforting, I despair at it these days. It’s draining and negative more often than positive, and it makes me feel sad.
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Seriously? Lighten up. Its a social page that highlights public and hot topics. No-one is making you read the comments or the write a response. You will always get smugness, vitriol, negativity and harshness when you are dealing with emotive topics that MM often highlights. This is the new world whether you like it or not. People are more comfortable than ever to sit behind a online facade and comment away. You just need to build up a thick skin and let it roll off your back. I like that this site has a differing of opinions – it makes for interesting reading.
If this all makes you so sad and tired, go find another website where you can read all about sunshine and roses in a fantasy dream world where we think the same and never challenge each others opinions.
Oh yeah, that’s right, it doesn’t exist.
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ZZzzz. Exactly the kind of comment she’s talking about.
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I agree. People should be able to express their opinion without being attacked by those who disagree, which happens here regularly despite moderation. If you happen to slightly disagree with the politically correct viewpoint the vultures come swooping. Listening to and considering another persons point of view is a 2 way street!
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I agree with you, my final comment. I’ve been feeling that way for a while. I;m no wallflower but if i was in a room among these commentators i’d be hiding in the corner
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I dont mind either way, discreet or out and proud. My wife made the choice to use a small wrap over her shoulder to the elbow when out in public because that is how she was raised, to be discreet and conscious that others, especially older generations, may be uncomfortable “watching”.
Discretion is a personal choice and posters on here attacking mothers who choose to be discreet is just as bad as Kochie’s comments that started the whole row.
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Totally. To me the whole point is that it should be the woman’s choice. Nobody elses….
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I think regardless of what Kochie meant/what he was trying to do, he should’ve just stayed out of it. What he thinks (and any definition of ‘discreet’) is and should be irrelevant. In fact 99% of people who contribute to these ‘debates’ should stay out of it.
Women should always have the right and the support to do what’s required for them to raise a healthy and safe baby (and for them also to be healthy and safe and sane
). If that means breastfeeding, bottlefeeding, natural birth, birth with pain killers, breast feeding in public, breastfeeding at home, it should be their decision and they should be able to make these decisions without the ridiculous amount of judgement and scrutinty that goes on by people who actually have no idea what they’re talking about.
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How is it an article on breastfeeding has attracted 500 comments +, yet the story of that poor girl in Ohio has attracted maybe, 50?
We really need to be more outraged about the rape and assault of a teenager girl and the disgusting rape culture attitude of small town Ohio than what a TV news presenter says about breast feeding on morning TV in Australia.
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Hi Whippersnapper, one thing I’ve learned about Mamamia is the number of comments isn’t always reflection of how widely the post is read. More than 11,000 people clicked on the story you refer to.
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I often see that point being raised but I think the that is drawing the wrong conclusion. Some stories are just so awful, what can you say? Some things that happen are so clearly wrong that what discussion needs to be had about them? I will often comment on more trivial articles because they have points to be argued but when it comes to more serious ones I have nothing to say. No words will do justice to how awful they are. I don’t think the number of comments denotes the importance of the content.
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It’s not about any of that Neeks, however I see what you are saying. I too, have not commented on the Ohio post, but I did read it out in disgust to my housemates. As you said, I wasn’t really quite sure what to say.
However, I have also not commented in the context of Kochie’s statement in this article – I have only commented to highlight the iniquities in the level of outrage being expressed on this site towards the respective pieces. I really just don’t care much about all the breastfeeding outrage. So I didn’t comment in that particular context.
I feel as though we should be expressing our moral outrage over on the Ohio post, rather than about whether David Koch has offended your view on breastfeeding in public.
If we’re going to have a discussion about the patriarchal society and women’s bodies as objects of desire for men (As people have raised here in the breastfeeding context), let’s discuss articles about rape culture where a 16 year old girls life has been changed irrevocably.
I just think that sitting here saying “Women shouldn’t have to go to a toilet to breastfeed!” and “I’m feeding my baby, it’s the same as you eating your lunch” is really quite trivial when there is an article over the page about this girls life having been almost destroyed, but more importantly – the rape culture, patriarchal and victim blaming attitude of the town in which the incident occurred.
And yes, Kate, I am well aware that the level of comments doesn’t really reflect how many hits an article received. I’m commenting on the comment numbers reflecting the number of people who felt they needed to put their two cents worth in on an article about breastfeeding vs an article about rape.
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thats a fair statement…. i have read both article and i cant comment on the other article because i just dont know where to begin!
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I have more of an issue with the over-the-top ‘backlash’ and, as someone else put it, blatant bullying towards Kochie (and anyone who doesn’t share their need for blood and vengeance towards him).
I especially dislike the barrage of photos on Facebook to make a point about breastfeeding which then inevitably turns into a ‘breast is best’ argument.
It makes me dislike the concept of breast feeding more so because it seems to breed this crowd of self-righteous over-zealous breast-snobs that just want to make a big song and dance over something so simple as someone suggesting a breast feeding mother be aware of her surroundings/environment and keep it in mind when breast feeding; god forbid.
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You “dislike the concept of breastfeeding”??! And you think breastfeeding mothers are “self-righteous over-zealous breast-snobs”?!?!
This comment just makes me feel so sad.
I think you’ll find that the majority of BFing mums don’t give a rat’s about how other people feed their babies – we only get riled up about the subject of breastfeeding if someone or something makes it more difficult for us.
When I have to breastfeed in public I do my damnedest to be discreet – I don’t want to offend anybody, and I definitely don’t want randoms seeing my boobs.
But it frankly pisses me off that there are people who think it’s “yucky” or “offensive” to see a woman breastfeed a child. Newsflash: that’s why women have breasts. To feed babies. Their sexual function is secondary to that.
It’s ok to constantly see practically naked women in advertising / movies / magazines etc, but feeding a baby is icky? First world cultures really do have their prude priorities arse about face.
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Completely agree Ash, I have no need to elaborate, you said it all!
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What do you dislike exactly? Not trying to be antagonistic, I am genuinely interested in why people have such an issue with public breastfeeding.
And why should a woman have to be so conscious of her surroundings? This is kind of the point of the backlash, the mother needs be comfortable, the baby needs to be comfortable – wherever, whenever. If people are offended, that have every right to move away or turn their heads. The baby does not care what else is happening, when they are hungry, they are hungry.
I don’t believe mothers place themselves in imminent danger when tackling a boob feed, or are hoping to provide an eyeful to as many people as possible…
On the facebook page the organisers specifically wrote is wasn’t a Kochie witch-hunt, but that they were determined to make sure he realised WHY they were offended. They also invited bottle feeding mums if they wanted to support the issue.
It’s not just crazy boob zealots who feel this way…
I had a nightmare time with breastfeeding, it was extremely difficult for me, but I would always attempt it before the bottle feed. I hated having to do it in public, but it wasn’t really about me. And my embarrassment was the fear that other mothers might see me doing it wrong – totally my issue. I was not going to add to the drama by erecting a mini tent over my or their head.
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I recently breastfed my baby at the local pool. I also recently breastfed my baby at the hospital. I also recently breastfed my baby at home in bed. I also recently breastfed my baby at a cafe. I also recently breastfed my baby at a wiggles concert. I’m going to keep doing this because my baby gets hungry and I go places with her.
The need to be discreet or not is a personal choice, but I sincerely doubt that many people are trying to expose their breasts while they are feeding their babies – more likely they are trying to get the baby attached and feeding properly.
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If Kochie had ever been inside a Parent’s Room and smelled it, he’d know why lots of women feed in public.
Me, I probably was a “classy” breast feeder, but that says more about me and my hang ups than anything else. I don’t care how other people feed. I’ve also NEVER actually seen someone “flop” it out. Just my thoughts.
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okay, what a wonderful opportunity to express my opinions about breastfeeding in public… before i address this whole debacle i feel the need to point out that there is NOTHING wrong with bottle feeding, it is ok to not want to breastfeed and I also think it’s ok for people to disagree with what I write. Firstly, while I disagree with Koch I do not think he intended to be disrespectful and I do think he respects breastfeeding…. however, i also think he iS WRONG! The minute he said people should be discreet he voided the idea that the women at the pool was pulled up because it was unsafe for to feed by the pool.
secondly, lets talk practically here, lets start with the blanket over the babys head idea…. as most mothers who have at least attempted to breast feed, its not easy, particularly in those first 6 weeks, you need both hands to ensure a proper latch which is key to establishing breastfeeding, i myself found i had to use both hands to feed the entire time for the first 10 weeks….. while i am using both my hands how on earth do i get a blanket over my babys head? what if im by myself and noone can put a blanket over me? I also ask have you ever walked around in 35 degree heat sipping a latte with a blanket over your head? Didnt think so, and guess what, baby isnt going to want to do it either.
Thirdly, lets move onto the “going to a private place” idea…. have you ever tried to feed a baby in a toilet cubicle or mothers room with a 2 year old in tow? and do you think having to run off and be isolated from everyone 3 hourly for an hour and a half at a time will encourage mothers to continue breastfeeding? I suppose you expect us to all sit at home and never go outside as to not offend you and breastfeed in public.
Fourthly…. its a shame that our culture has sexualised women and their breasts so much that it makes you uncomfortable to see. I dont hear people complaining when an attractive 17 year old walks down the street in nothing but a bikini with only her nipples hidden…. you see less when i breastfeed! A lot of the reason that women have so much trouble breastfeeding is because of lack of knowledge, imagine if we all sat around breastfeeding, no blankets or mothersroom and learned from eachother? I have a friend, a male friend who is uncomfortable when I breastfeed in front of him…… HE leaves the room, NOT ME!!! I think he is a wonderful man, and I hold the sentiment that if you arent comfortable watching me breastfeed than put a blanket over your head!
Finally, my breastfeeding is not about you! it is about me and my baby, and caring for my child, I should not have to defend my right to breastfeed anywhere any time any way i choose, no matter my or my child’s age.
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On Kochie’s Twitter feed he has posted a photo bathing his 3 grandchildren in the bathtub.
I don’t understand how he can say that women should be more discreet by covering a sliver of boob when he has his naked grandkids online for all to see.
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The only time I attempted to be ‘discreet’ by using a wrap over my baby she kept coming off trying to grab at the wrap and it certainly resulted in more ‘exposure’ time.
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I don’t like being counselled on what I should do with my breasts by a TV presenter ………
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Agreed! Australian women have the legal right to breastfeed when and where they wish. The law doesn’t stipulate how much breast should be shown, or impose fines for showing a nipple (‘unclassy’ breast feed – 5 penalty units?) because that would be an utterly ridiculous breach of human rights. So why is this even being debated? To those who find it offensive, you need to reflect on why this is so. Great article Mia.
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That TV presenter should be removed from view because he is ONE BIG BOOB himself (not just on this topic, but everything in fact but Money & Finance topics – his areas of expertise). I am embrassed for Chanel Seven.
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One woman on the side of the pool breastfeeding her child.
That behavior is not typical of breast-feeding women. She is an anomaly.
But then Kochie then uses that as a reason to comment on the behaviour of every breast-feeding woman out there.
And just this morning he continues to place the emphasis on the mother’s behaviour to change because they might offend other peoples sensibilities! The inference being that there is something inherently shameful about a woman “exposing” herself to others whilst she is nourishing her child.
This is what I really dont get at all – Nearly every woman I have ever seen breast feed in public has been “discreet”. This whole discussion is ridiculous. I feel like it is just another reason to shame women and control their behavior.
Mothers just dont need this extra crap. It’s difficult enough for them as it is.
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When i’m happy to sit down to dinner with a towel/blankie/wrap over my head I will do the same when breastfeeding my 8 month old! The only time I attempted to be ‘discreet’ by using a wrap over my baby she kept coming off trying to grab at the wrap and it certainly resulted in more ‘exposure’ time.
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i have read many news articles saying that she was actually feeding IN the pool?
if this is true then I do think it was right for the pool staff to ask her to feed somewhere else. I wouldn’t eat my food in the pool. I don’t even like swimming in them YUK. And also it really inst that safe or comfortable I imagine to feed in a pool.
Can someone confirm what is accurate?
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Just walked through Martin Place, to find many mums breastfeeding babies, glad to see they are doing it in an out of the way place
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Ok so i just saw the nurse in on Sunrise and i saw a mother breast feeding a child that was at least kinder age with her whole boob out with the child hanging off her nipple. Whole breast exposed.
This i find offensive.
I am with Kochie.
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Agreed! Most women breastfeeding dont do that, however, to those who claim it never happens and they have never seen it which is a very arrogant stance – it does happen. Many of us have seen it happen and thats why we are commenting about it. Just because you havent seen a woman breastfeeding exposing her entire breast in a confronting way doesnt mean its not a fact.
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How am I being arrogant when I say, I haven’t ever seen a woman hang her whole boob out while breastfeeding? I’ve breastfed 4, and have been around a lot of other mothers breastfeeding, and never seen it. I think all those that say it happens, are just offended a woman would dare breastfeed out in the open, so actually make out it was worse than what it actually was. Is that what you do Chillax?
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I’m no prude cool beans and have also breastfed my own 4 children. I know the difference between trying to get the job done and trying to make a spectacle of yourself while exposing as much boob as possible. Believe it or not, some women do.
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and that was the point he was making!! Why do some breastfeeding mothers feel its nessesary to have their whole boob out. I am a former breastfeeding mother and I always used a muslin cloth. I didn’t want people viewing my body in public. No body ever told me to stop because I was considerate to myself, my baby and those around me. Since when did having dignity become a luxury?
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Then perhaps you should have turned off the TV? If you are so offended by breasts then I would recommend you
- don’t open any magazines (or even glance at the cover),
- don’t read anything on Mamamia (those Kardashians and their boobs pop up a bit)
- Avoid the internet altogether. Seriously, overexposed boobs are everywhere.
- Don’t go outside in Summer. Or Spring. Or any season, really. Have you seen what people wear these days?
I would recommend moving to an Amish community. Or becoming Bretheren.
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i agree princesstan l don`t mind seeing a baby being breasfed but the sight of a kinder aged child breastfeeding turns my stomach. There is no need for a child that age to be breastfed.
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I have neglected to comment until now because I am fairly sure Kochie’s comments were misunderstood and Mia’s witchhunt really disappoints me – this is not just a discussion about breastfeeding, it is bullying.
In saying that, provided a woman and her baby is safe and comfortable, it doesn’t worry me in the least if she wants to breastfeed. Most women tend to be pretty discreet from what I can see, and breastfeeding really only makes me smile.
However I wonder if other people have seen women feed at truly inappropriate times? I mean really, babies don’t need to be fed the second they cry. There is a small window of time to find somewhere comfortable. For example, I wouldn’t pop my boob out while going through the supermarket checkout, that would be stupid and not really necessary – you could just as easily pay and then go and find somewhere to sit down. I’m not saying women do that, just wondering what breasfeeding behaviour people are seeing that is “offensive”.
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I’ve seen a woman with her whole breast out while she was feeding baby on other side sitting on the chairs in the middle of a shopping centre. Staring around daring someone to say something. this is the kind of behaviour I think most people are talking about being inappropriate..
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Thanks Lucinda, its nice to see that some people are prepared to admit that some of us have seen behaviour that is inappropriate. Most of us are women who have breastfed our own kids so we’re not monsters. We have just seen people who have absolutely no regard for anyone else around them. I’ve seen a woman breastfeeding in the front passenger seat of a moving car. Stupid, dangerous and illegal.
Newsflash ladies – just because a woman is a breastfeeding mother doesnt make her holier than thou.
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No, I don’t think they were misunderstood – he was pretty clear. Watch the clips to have a look.
I think the problem is that he tried to backpedal by making it a “safety concern” when that was nothing to do what what actually happened at the pool – she was asked to cover up.
I’m actually in awe of people walking around Woolies feeding their babies – I’ve never noticed anyone doing it, but I wouldn’t be able to! I agree that sometimes they just have to wait, but that time shouldn’t have to include finding somewhere to hide to sit down and have a feed. And that’s what discreet means – “I can’t see it”.
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I don’t think the uproar is about when, its about HOW it is done. Being discreet
means you can breastfeed wherever you want without compromising your privacy. How hard it is to be considerate to others? and YES there are those who are uncomfortable with it….so what? Its their point of view and we can’t FORCE them into liking it. We all have to be considerate in every other aspect of our lives, why is this any different?
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That’s not entirely true, we don’t all have to be discreet in every other aspect of our lives. Men who walk around topless are not required to be discreet or girls who wear those teeny-tiny micro shorts/
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My ex mother-in-law told me a story about going out to lunch at a cafe with a friend who was breast-feeding at the time. baby got hungry so she popped her on the boob, ex-MIL had no issue with this whatsoever, what did bother her though was after baby had finished, the mother put baby on the opposite shoulder to the breast she had been feeding from and proceeded to burp her, while her breast was exposed, ex-MIL said the sight of her friends engorged breast wobbling around with the arm movements of burping bub, infront of her face was a bit confronting and not something she would have done herself whilst feeding, I can see how she would have felt uncomfortable with this and have to wonder, why was this woman comfortable with exposing her whole breast to the cafe after baby was done feeding? could she not have quicky pulled her shirt up, even as just a cover while she burped baby and then rearranged herself properly after baby was taken care of?
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I was sitting on a couch in a shoe shop trying on shoes when a lady sat down right next to me and started breast feeding with an exposed breast. I was only about 18 or 19, had never seen breastfeeding before and remember feeling really shocked! I wasn’t offended or anything, but I mumbled something and ran out of the shop.
That was 10 years ago and I would react much differently now, but back then I was only just an adult myself and it freaked me out.
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As you point out though, you’d never seen breastfeeding before, so if people don’t feel ashamed to do it, and it is seen around the place more, then it won’t freak people out when they do see it.
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I hated breast feeding in public as my baby would always pull off and look around, making being too discreet a little problematic. I applaud anyone who breast feeds their baby in public but it does seem some women (the very small minority) have a very arrogant approach and do not even attempt to cover up and have any dignity. I once went to a restaurant (not a cheap family one) and was halfway through eating my meal when a woman sat down directly opposite me and fully exposed both breasts to feed her kindergarten age child. Why they both had to be out, I don’t know. Why did she leave them flopped on the table while she rummaged in her bag? I don’t know. Breast feeding in public doesn’t generally ever bother me – if it did, I would look away or leave. But In this situation i couldn’t leave and it was very much in my face and I couldn’t not see unless I looked over my shoulder to eat. Having a law about anti-discrimination in great but I think sometimes women take advantage of a well meaning law just to be self riotous and “dare” someone to complain to them. I don’t think it matters what we are doing, we live in a polite society and we should be courteous to those around us.
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Obviously you’re not a mother a baby does need to be fed as soon as possible.
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While Kochie’s attitude is unsurprising, as he is an absolute dinosaur, I am ASTONISHED at some of comments made by women here about the need to be discreet — from women. Unbelieveable. If for some strange reason (and it is strange) you feel uncomfortable looking at a breast doing what it is designed to do, then you be discreet and look away. It is YOUR problem. And to make the comment that other children shouldn’t be exposed to this, like it’s porn or something. No wonder our breastfeeding rates are amongst the lowest in the world.
And I would like to make the point that if you do hold this attitude then you should keep it to yourself. It is incredibly unhelpful to anyone struggling with breastfeeding.
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Here here!
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It is all an exercise in good manners really. I fed in public but discreetly. no point making others unnecessarily uncomfortable.
But the same could be said about the pool- they lady did not fed to cause offence and it was rude of the management to make her feel uncomfortable and judged. Feds are over in a few minutes at that age so why cause a scene? We all need to be considerate to others and calm down.
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The problem with the ‘nurse-in’ is it will give ‘Sunrise’ publicity and ratings so Kochie will see his comments as a positive thing. I’ll stick to ‘Today’ and protest by refusing to watch ‘Sunrise’.
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I am actually saddened my many of the comments posted on this issue. I believe the general consensus is breast is best and of course you should be able to feed your baby anywhere you like (I’ll be honest here but I have never had any of my mum friends feel the need nor be pressured to feed in a toilet cubicle). What saddens me is the venom many contributors are using against those women who feel, for many valid reasons, being a little discreet is appropriate. We all have opinions and they should be debated with gusto yet not be insulting nor assumptious. I also believe we are talking about a small group of mums who perhaps over expose themselves whilst breast feeding (yes even when sleep deprived). Most in my experience, me included, breast fed “discreetly” (sorry trying to find a better word so not to offend). This has just become yet another woman against woman slanging match. Very sad for the “sisterhood”.
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If the mother wants to be discreet, then that is fine and fabulous. I think the problem with this whole issue, is being told that you are only classy if you are discreet. It’s this judgement, the addition of ‘more rules for mummies’ and negative connotation, that for mine, is problematic.
I, of course, tried to be discreet, with muslins etc.,For my own issues, no-one elses. I found the whole breastfeeding thing very stressful, my sons both fed for an hour at a time, every hour. It was horrendously hard work, AND not once did they ever keep a cover over their heads. I often struggled with latching, and if I was anywhere other than home, I’d have a panic attack that someone might see my nipples for too long while I was stressfully and desperately trying to get a latch.
I suffered PND. I had no life. I just wanted to go out and have a coffee and cake in peace, without a baby screaming and being unsettled. So, I had to be able to breastfeed at a table with a coffee or cake, because I wouldn’t ever have been able to do it otherwise.
This is why this whole Kochie – ‘keep it classy’ business really stresses me. For goodness sake, breastfeeding is challenging enough, without someone else putting in another disclaimer of how I’m only a decent human being, only a good mother, only a good woman, if I do it with my head turned facing a wall, or with wraps and stuff all over me and my baby, in an area with only a certain number of people.
I really don’t think that Mia’s article is digging at mum’s who would like to be discreet, we need to do what we need to do to be comfortable. But, I don’t appreciate people in the world discussing breastfeeding as if it is shameful.
The poor little bubs! (Won’t somebody think of the children, lol). Seriously, do we see adults with muslin wraps over their heads, getting all hot and bothered, trying to eat. Do we have to turn our chairs and face the walls, as adults, to eat, because eating is so offensive? No. To suggest a little baby must be covered (especially in the recent heat), or that the mother is not allowed to engage in normal social situations is just cruel, in my book anyway.
So, I say, be discreet mummies, if that makes YOU and YOUR baby happy and comfortable, And if, like me, you had a baby that would throw muslins off after 1 second, and wriggle around, and have difficulty latching, don’t be ashamed.
I just worry about the PND mums. Stuck at home sitting on a coach breast feeding, because society tells them that engaging with everyday people doing everyday things is not for you, because there are so many rules; it’s all too hard.
Considering we have a whole restaurant chain (Hooters) where the entire point is to go there and eat and ogle boobs, I find it a little amusing that society is so prudish about breast feeding. I just don’t get it.
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Flick, I completely sympathise and feel for you suffering PND. However that is another whole new story for Mamamia to tackle. There are so many other parenting difficulties that lead or feed PND. This is probably something Mia should address, in an objective manner without the hysteria this particular subject has caused.
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I agree. And I would like to add that it is not up to us to tell people how to feel about breastfeeding. If they are uncomfortable we should not be judging that. I breastfeed both my babies and I could do it wherever I liked as I was discreet and protected my and my babies privacy. It meant we were more relaxed and comfortable whilst feeding. We have to be courteous and considerate in all other aspects of our lives, why is this any different?
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It is part of venturing out in public that not everyone you come across will be that same as you. In a cafe or restaurant, I find many things annoying or offensive: smoking at the outside tables, overly loud tables such that I can’t hear the person next to me, obnoxious drunks, racist and other offensive views, screaming children, poor table manners, poor hygiene, teenage boys with their jeans around their hips and undies on view, teenage girls with more of their flesh on show than any breastfeeding mum. Some you put up with, sometimes you move, some things are clearly unacceptable and you would expect someone to desist, and sometimes it’s really easy and you can just turn you head and look at something else. The thing about a breastfeeding mum is, you can just not look. It’s that easy. If the breastfeeding in the same room as you is OK, and the only problem is you have to see a glimpse of breast because the mum is not classy enough to spare you, don’t look. That is really easy to do. Breastfeeding with a cover, often impossible. No one is saying you can’t be uncomfortable watching another breast feed. So just don’t watch.
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I’m not surprised by his attitude at all as it seems to be a pretty common one these days – surprising as it seems. I breastfed my daughter, occasionally in public, but I.admit I never felt comfortable because I really struggled with the actual process of breastfeeding. Soon I will have my second baby and I’m hoping it’ll be easier, breastfeeding wise, than last time. I’m always amazed and awed by the women who have the courage and skill – because it is a skill learned and not always a natural talent – to breastfeed without batting an eyelid at any time in any place. I was impressed by a lady breastfeeding at the zoo while lining up to go on the safari tour! I hope I manage better next time round. I don’t believe it’s something to be hidden from “the eyes of children” as some have suggested. It’s nature after all.
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The most disappointing thing about the comments is the vast number of other women banging on about being modest and ‘discreet’. What’s the big freakin’ deal about a woman getting on with things and feeding her baby, regardless of where she happens to be? Young babies need feeding every few hours and mothers rooms aren’t always available (and in my experience they’re often quite gross). If you find it so immodest and disgusting, turn away – it only takes a few seconds for the baby to latch. Many babies refuse to be covered (mine kept pulling off the cover despite my efforts to be ‘discreet’) so what do you expect a mum to do?
What’s so immodest about a perfectly natural human experience? And don’t go on about respect for the public. What’s so disrespectful about FEEDING YOUR BABY? How many women have you actually literally seen exposing themselves gleefully in a bid for attention when a hungry baby is at hand? Honestly, why don’t you show some respect for the mum and applaud her for providing sustenance to the next generation.
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Doing a number two is a perfectly natural human experience but I try to be discrete about that. What’s the difference?
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You really need someone to tell you the difference between pooing and breastfeeding?
I think that sums up this whole problem in a nutshell. Some people have some really strange ideas about breastfeeding (equating it to pooing/peeing/farting/picking your nose). Why don’t we address what is going on with people that they think that way rather than deciding the solution is for people to cover up while breastfeeding.
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We are all animals and these things are all natural. Some people are bothered by some more than others. Whats the big supprise at the diversity of opinion? People do what they want anyone despite of others opinions all the time…
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I think Kochie was completely justified in his comment.. It should be done discreetly & yes there are those out there who flaunt them for the whole world to see.. I don’t look but I’m sure there are those that do & really do you want to be putting yourself in that situation? During my sons swimming lesson the other day there was a woman feeding her baby IN the pool! Seriously if I’d bottle fed my baby in the swimming pool how much backlash would there be about bonding etc. seriously people its not fast food!
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I’d have thought that breastfeeding is the ultimate in fast food, actually. It’s there and ready to go when your baby needs it!
I don’t mind people looking at me feed my daughter. It’s interesting and not what most people see everyday. If they want to look, that’s fine. If they want to talk to me about it, I’m totally cool with that too. I don’t know any Mums who would think particularly differently. It’s not a big deal for those of us breastfeeding, as we do it a few times a day. It’s not done to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, it’s done to feed a baby.
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Well actually it’s the fastest food you can get!
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I have no issue with breastfeeding, but on the side of a public pool with children swimming i personally find inappropriate. She should have gone to a table or chair, etc nearby and continued and not put it directly in the face of the people in the pool. With other children that range in age in the pool right in front of her (She was sitting on the side of a pool with her feet in the water), I find it extremely rude for her to assume that I want my kids exposed to a breastfeeding mother right in front of them.
And before you say they should swim somewhere else in the pool, how about the mother take five and feed the baby somewhere not right at the side of the pool. I’m not saying she should go hide in a corner and cover herself, but just dont sit on the edge of the pool and do it.
Nothing against the mother, she just wrongly assumed everyone would be ok with her breastfeeding on the side of the pool. Honestly I would also complain in i were there and witnessed her breastfeeding right on the side of the pool.
As much as i hate to say it, I agree with Kochie and totally see his point.
And the feed in outside sunrise studios, is simply heavily polarising peoples opinions on the matter, not necesarily for the better.
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Can I ask what you find so offensive about a baby feeding from its mother, the way nature intended? And that you don’t want your children “exposed” to this behaviour?! As though its something heinous.. blows. My. Mind.
I’m sure you don’t find an issue with your child seeing a lady in a bikini or that they haven’t been exposed to something on tv that is genuinely disturbing.
I am currently breastfeeding my new baby and before he was born would actively point out babies being breastfed to my toddler daughter so she was aware of how babies are fed.
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How about I don’t want my child exposed to the sight of bottle feeding ?
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I think not wanting your kids to see/know about breast feeding OR bottle feeding are both as ridiculous ideas as the other. My kids know about both. Why shouldn’t they? They both exist.
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From what I understand, she was by the side of the pool because she had two young children in the pool and she wanted to watch them. Young kids need constant supervision so I totally understand her need to be close to the pool because they could drown or get injured in seconds.
Why should her breastfeeding bother any of the other kiddies? Most of them have seen or experienced it themselves at home so it would be the most natural thing in the world for them. It was more the parents who caused the fuss!
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I have had 2 babies and have bottle fed them after attempting to breastfeed for a number of reasons so Im not biased in favour of breastfeeding – whatever works for the individual I say BUT I can’t believe you are worried about your young kids seeing a mother breastfeed. Your kids will sure have some hangups about the human body when they are older!
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I am happy for my children to be “exposed” to breast feeding. Maybe it will mean that they will have a better attitude towards it than some people these days (still) do.
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Interestingly there was an article on the site recently about a woman’s backlash bottle feeding her baby in public and comments about ‘breast is best’ and the ‘breast feeding nazis’. Now the comments are all pro-breast but not in public and only if it’s ‘discreet’. And this is from our sisterhood. Maybe it would be easier if babies and their carers never left the house, they could then be fed in a completely judgement free zone.
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It makes me irritated that Kochie has said this, but I must admit I find a lot of the comments on this site bewildering. Other women stating that they are pro-breast feeding but it should be done behind closed doors or with a huge feeding blanket/scarf etc. and that they don’t need to see other women’s breasts/nipples nor do their children. It’s just crazy. To all those women who plan on feeding in the future, ignore these comments. I have breastfed my three children off and on over the past decade. Also In various places that could be considered ‘high traffic’. I have had various people tell me what a great job i’m doing, how lucky the baby is etc and I have only encountered one kind-of negative comment – when my breast milk was leaking on someone sitting next to me. He just wanted to let me know it was getting in his ipod. i was a new parent and completely mortified. He was 22 and just said it was no big deal and used some wipes and cleaned it up and that was the end of it. If a young hipster in Brunswick with breastmilk on him can deal with it, other people can and should pull their bloody heads in.
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The breastfeeding mum should tell the truth. She was breastfeeding IN THE POOL with both boobs in full view. She was NOT asked to leave, but asked not to feed in the pool. Odd – thought this would be risking the baby intaking chlorine and pool water, and we know what people do in public pools. Cheeky Mum then asked for a full refund, after spending all day there. Was refused refund as she had not been asked to leave. Quite a different story to what news is telling……. Oh, and by the way, I have been a breastfeeding mum in the past and I chose to use some discretion. Me thinks Mum is seeking attention and possible monetary gain.
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Never let the truth get in the way of media spin and feminist outrage.
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Who are you and how do you know all this?
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Just interested to know how you know the ” truth” of this?
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This article shows that she wasn’t asked to leave, she was given the alternative of changing room (which yes, I know, shouldn’t have to feed there), moving to the corner of the centre or putting something over her chest. Wasn’t actually asked to leave. And the reason the centre said something was because people had complained to them.
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/liana-webster-forced-to-leave-bribie-island-aquatic-centre-after-breastfeeding-her-daughter-rori/story-e6freoof-1226555303135
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No-one has said that she was asked to leave, have they? She was asked to move or cover up, but not to leave.
People can complain, and the centre can say something, and she can choose to cover up or not, but she’s not obliged to.
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I thought breastfeeding with togs on and covering up one side would be a struggle, glad you have clarified the point at issue here!
If she was topless sunbaking I’m sure she would be asked to cover up, but the fact that she was feeding her nearly one year old, with both boobs exposed, makes it ok!
Seriously, she didnt have to breastfeed, the child could have been consoled with a paddle pop at that age!
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You think it would be better to feed the baby junk food instead of breast milk just to make sure nobody saw a boob? Oh dear.
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Oh dear too…the child was nearly 1, hardly a screaming newborn. As part of a normal diet for a child that age, along with water, milk (from whatever form the mother chooses), vegies, fruit and meat the occasional treat is perfectly fine. I’m more concerned that the mother felt it was ok to expose both her breasts because she felt breastfeeding her toddler was her only option.
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Sometimes it is the only option. My daughter will sometimes not take no for an answer. And why should she?
Maybe if you spent less time being offended by other people and what they do with their kids, you’d be a happier person. Kids haircuts are wrong, they have no manners, they’re too old to breastfeed, blah blah blah.
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Perfectly happy thanks…just a little dismayed at the lack of respect and self absorption displayed by some of the younger generation of parents
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Of course you’re happy, you’ve got people to judge and gossip about.
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Despite those people’s perception of the descriptions I used to describe the grubbiness of some people’s attitudes to public breastfeeding – I’m not a “rabid feminist”.
In addition, patriarchal males are only protective of those women who they seek to own and control.
Those of us who have no issue with a woman feeding her baby in a public place aren’t being unreasonable either………most women are incredibly discreet but even these women are chastised & hounded and reminded that this responsible activity must be served up as “classy” for the appeasement of the judgemental.
I also know men who love the sight of pregnant women (it’s “lovely & mumsy”) and some who love seeing babies being breastfed because it seems “right”……….I’m not even critical of men who hope to get a quick glimpse of a breast because that’s natural too.
My problem (as I said before ) is with the people who see something disgusting about it and THAT’s not okay – that’s unhealthy and wrong.
It’s particularly wrong to pass this attitude on to children.
I can actually imagine that Kochie was being silly & flippant when he dropped that comment because daily live television /radio can cause people to drop their guard sometimes.
This is an issue that “takes off” when it surfaces from time to time and seems to stir the pot of public debate still.
Breastfeeding women with their equal right to be considered with any respect at all, are still offending some in our community.
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