Catriona
When was the last time you asked someone if they had children? I’m asked this question at least once a week. Yesterday I was asked three times.
I was presenting on my area of expertise – PR and social media – to a group of very successful CEOs. One asked “How do you have time to do social media?” Before I could answer, another asked “Do you have children?” It wasn’t a casual conversation between a group of friends – I was presenting a professional seminar.
My answer: No
His response: Well that is why you have time to do social media.
I let the comment go, but by the end of the seminar I was so annoyed by that dismissive comment, I let him know how annoyed I was.
But it made me wonder about a few things.
Do people with children really think that I have more time than them? I’m not a sitting on the couch watching TV kind of girl. Come and spend a day in my life. There isn’t much couch time.
Last week I was sitting with a group of women artists who were talking about how they have suffered because male artists don’t tend do the child rearing so have more opportunity to do their art and have “dreaming” time, and hanging out with their “muses”.
One very observant woman in the room could see I was starting to think it was probably time to go home. This conversation no longer included me. She said “And don’t forget the women like Catriona who run companies, they are trying to find time to do their art as well.” Yes we are.
If I was a man would I be asked if I have children? I would suggest no, or at least not as much.
I did a quick poll of my friends, some of whom have children, others who don’t. The only ones that responded are women who don’t have children. They are asked at least once a week if they have children.
I’m not sure what this means. Do the ones who do have children not notice if they are asked because it is such a part of their lives? I’m not sure. I do know the only people who ask me if I have children, are people with children.
When I’m asked the question, at times it makes me feel like I’m not a part of your club. I’m an outsider. I don’t have that one thing in common with you. During a time in my life being asked this question brought up profound sadness for me. Mostly now, I have no attachment to the answer. It’s simply, no.
Next time you ask “Do you have children?” Maybe think twice. Don’t assume we do. And don’t assume we have more time in our lives, because often we don’t.
There are so many other questions you could ask to get to know someone better.
Catriona runs her own PR and social media agency, CP Communications,. In her spare time, she enjoys sleeping. Find her on Twitter here.
What questions do you ask to get to know someone better?
Comments
384 Comments so far
I get more offended when people ask ‘why’ I don’t have kids or ‘when’ we’re having kids – now that’s taking it one step too far.
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Pingback: Taboo or too much: the questions we all get asked about when and why we are and aren't having more kids
My husband and I don’t have kids. Interestingly, he gets asked more often than I do whether we have kids or not. And his askers are usually other men with kids. Their reply to him when he says ‘no, I don’t have kids’ is more often than not ‘lucky you’.
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I don’t normally get asked but that could be due to the give away sign of baby vomit down my back!
Asking if someone has kids is the same as asking what they do for work. Sometimes it’s just a way to find common ground with a stranger. Depending on your situation that doesn’t make it any less hurtful or annoying but most times it isn’t asked in a mean way.
Due to my own troubles getting pregnant & my miscarriages I am sensitive to asking the ‘kid’ question but I have to admit I’m guilty of asking the work question.
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When asked if I have children, I just say: ‘No – or at least, none that I know of!’ and give the person asking a big wink.
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Catriona, I think you’re being over-sensitive. It’s generally just a question and if it isn’t – if it’s a judgement, then that person is going to judge you on more things that if you have kids or not so why bother too much about their opinion? Put them in their place if need be and move on – as any woman, mother or not, should do.
The question is often relevant because there IS a different set of rules and knowledge a person has if they’re an active parent. Men certainly get asked this question too – of course they do – especially by OTHER PARENTS.
There are things parents know that non-parents don’t. As there are things that non-parents know that parents don’t. Same goes for different ages, races, socio economic backgrounds etc etc the list goes on. Us parents get a lot of insensitive questions too (“are you having more kids?” “are you married?”). What are you going to do – start policing people’s questions? Your reticence seems frankly a bit grumpy and bitter to me.
And lastly, if I was to be as overly sensitive as I feel you’re being, I would suggest that your outrage over that question is a little condescending TO parents – as if what we’re doing isn’t of big enough value for it to be a public topic. Parenting is -in my opinion – the hardest and most valuable job in the world. (Neither you nor I wouldn’t be here without the people who raised us). Doesn’t mean you’re not valuable because you don’t do it but have a little perspective and respect. It’s the biggest part of some people’s lives. We’re gonna talk about it.
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Catriona needs to get over herself because the only person that cares is her. Really Catriona, someone asks you a question and it completely disrupts your mood? There are much bigger things to worry about. How about writing an article about real issues and not your insecurities? Clearly that question hits a nerve. Oh and by the way, people with kids are extremely busier. You just don’t get it.
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Agree with you completely, Jess. I often see Non- Parents being overly sensitive about the kids topic while us parents probably don’t have the headspace to be offended! Actively involved parents ARE busier than non-parents – as we have more to worry about. Our kids safety and future, how to raise them to be good people. Doesn’t mean Non-Parents aren’t valuable, of course it doesn’t! Only a Non-Parent would have time to worry about such a trivial issue.
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Catriona was asked an irrelevant personal question in a professional setting. I know that parents are happy to talk about their kids like in the comments. But if you found yourselves in a professional setting (sitting in front of the computer while pretending to look after your kids doesn’t count), you too would prefer to be judged by your merit rather than how many times you had spawned.
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Calmly. Thank you
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Catriona – if there is one thing that the comments on this prove is that many mothers do make time for social media – so the dismissive guy’s comment was ill informed as well as unnecessary and rude in a professional situation. (If you’re wondering why? Reading blogs and posting comments are social media – aka Mammamia – not to mention all the Facebook activity). Maybe send him some social media stats to help him get to grips with a world he doesn’t understand. Social media can be such a positive and empowering way to connect with people and stay informed whether it be about friends and family, news and current affairs or business and the voice of the customer. (And mothers should never feel guilty about taking time out of their day to use social media to connect with others or add a little moment of joy (or venting) into their lives.)
As for your comments about the “Do you have children” question and your reference to sadness – I understand where you are coming from. Many commenters obviously don’t and cannot understand that there are many women who can’t have children (even with the help of IVF) and many who are in the limbo stage of not knowing if they can/will – and thus this question does bring up a difficult and painful topic. The ability “to just get over it” as some imply – depends on where people are in their journey – some may never get over it – just like some people never get over the grief of losing a parent/sibling/partner/child and an innocent question will result in tears welling up in the person’s eyes – or worse.
For those wondering how to connect with someone and perhaps skirt around the issue – share something about your children with the person. I’m sure you will find that if the person does have children – they will quickly and heartily join in as it is an area of commonality. If they don’t mention their own children – then they may: a) not have children; b) not be able to have children; c) be trying to have children unsuccessfuly and not easily join in your conversation right now or d) not want to talk about their own children in the environment that you are in e) add to the conversation about their nieces/nephews/godchildren (if they have them). If not, use your best wits to find another topic quickly.
There is a subtle difference between being able to respond to an enquiry about a sibling and saying “I lost my brother. He died in a car accident.” and “No I don’t have children. We’ve tried everything for (insert number of years) and we can’t have children.” to a complete stranger. The first you feel the pain because of the grief/loss and that you couldn’t do anything to help/stop it. The second you feel a similiar level of grief/loss but usually attached to that is multiple losses and disappointments with your own efforts – miscarriages, many unsuccessful ivf attempts and even sometimes lost adoption opportunities. All these come rushing back at the time you innocently ask that question – do you have children? For others who may consciously have chosen not to have children – appreciate that there are usually going to be a number of factors behind that decision that again aren’t usually appropriate to discuss with strangers. This goes for men or women.
So if you want to be thoughtful and sensitive in striking up conversations with strangers – maybe just avoid such a direct question.
As for the arguments about time and who is busiest – we gain nothing trying to compete for the title of “Busiest person in the world”. I think a small minority try to claim the title because it is ego driven and it helps make them feel better – but for most people they are just searching for some acknowledgement and empathy because modern life is a constant juggle – whether you have children or not. (Acknowledging that second and third worlds have it tougher – so there is a point where we can feel too sorry for ourselves – and it might help to think of people less fortunate.)
I can readily see and acknowledge that those with children (surrounded as I am with friends with 1 to 4 children) are very very busy and their time is often microscopically shared between the number of children, an infintessimal number of tasks (often mundane), jobs in some cases, and often with the demands of extended family members or without support from husbands/partners/family. There is no argument there.
Catriona – just said – don’t always assume people without children have more time in their lives – sometimes they wont. If they are running/starting businesses, studying and working, caring for elderly parents or have punishing job demands (high pressure cultures, physically demanding jobs, shift work, fly in fly out) – their lives could feel similiarly time poor. The key message here is – none of us should just assume – or try to attack each other with our assumptions.
And lastly – just a comment on social media on the whole (and this is one of the areas I work in) – people please do not forget your manners. If you would not say the things you write to someone face to face – don’t post them as comments. Too often social media seems to bring out the worst in people – if you can’t make your point without being abusive or rude – perhaps your argument is not very strong.
For the record – I’m married, no children, trying for 3 years, plenty of ivf heartbreak and disappointments, in limbo as to whether we can still believe children will be a possibility but hoping. I have three friends who have had to conclude it wont be after trying – two for 10 years – one for five. When strangers ask – do I have children? If the situation is appropriate – I’ll respond “not at the moment but hopefully we will.” For all other situations – the response “no we don’t” usually is a conversation stopper and we both quickly skip on to other things. Here’s hoping hopefully will one day turn into reality and I’ll gaily join in with my own stories about my own children. However for my three friends – the question will always be painful when asked by strangers.
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Can I just say that this is my favourite comment out of the 300-odd comments posted
Very very very well said.
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OK PEOPLE… I think everyone needs to:
1. Chill
2. Read the article again – this time without the opinion you formed as soon as you read the title.
Honestly, it’s like majority of you simply read the title and then scrolled straight to the comments section to start your rant of “Until you have children you know nothing about busy…” and so on and so forth.
So for all of you out there who have donned your huffy boots and are about to write a scathing comment about how Catriona must have children before she even THINKS about comments on a busy life, PLEASE!! Stop. Breathe. And just read the god damn article… I will wait here while you do – go on…!
Ok now that’s done. I would like to shed light on what Catriona is ACTUALLY SAYING.
She is saying that, in a professional environment – NOT at a social outing and NOT at a friends place and NOT during a friendly social chat over coffee or a wine – During a professional event being asked if she has children simply to prove why she has the ability to use social media (aka her job) and others (aka the CEO) do not have the ability or as the CEO put it “the time”.
The fact that she doesn’t have kids is moot. 100 bloody per cent moot!
The REAL issue is the fact that she was asked whether she has kids in a professional context to prove why she can do something others cannot.
And that’s a sad sad issue. Whether or not a person (woman on man) has the ability to do something should not revolve around whether or not they have kids. But sadly, it does. And more than half of these comments prove this point.
I believe (and this is solely my opinion) that in a social situation where light hearted “getting to know each other” conversation is occurring – conversation that has nothing to do with her career and how she has the time to run a business and be present on social media etc, being asked the questions “do you have children?” will be taken as kindly as “do you own a dog?”.
It is not the question that should be debated about here but rather the context in which it was asked.
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You make valid points.
It’s a shame though, that the author’s closing statements include ‘Next time you ask “Do you have children?” Maybe think twice.’… Unfortunately it’s a very closed statement and hence why most people are left wondering ‘well, what can we ask people about these days’.
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In the setting that Catriona describes, the question to ask was: “How do you find the time for social media?” That’s it. It was a professional seminar – why should anybody need to know about people’s kids?
If you met Catriona at the park and wanted to invite her over for a barbeque and needed to know if she had a partner or any kids that she would be bringing, then ask. Unless whether someone has kids or not is directly related to the way in which you are interacting with them, it’s irrelevant.
And anybody who can’t think of other small talk topics than if a person has kids… scary, scary people. Oh – but I forgot! According to most commenters here, parents (especially mothers) haven’t got time to have interests or.. god forbid, thoughts about anything beyond their children!!
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You read my mind. THANK YOU.
I am at uni full time, and being mid-twenties and married, I get the question so often. I’m sick of the assumption that because I’m studying and married, I must have children at home.
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I ask people all sorts of questions. And I’d think that one quite pertintent, considering the topic and audience?
More than ever, people are trying to obtain balance in their lives between work / family / play etc
I’m always curious as to how my peers run their lives, families, households. How they manage it all.
Don’t take it personally, I’m just looking for tips!
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For the reasons cited above, this is not a question I broach with female acquaintances.
As a mother of four sons, who worked full time in a very demanding career, and now as a grand mother, I’m not shy in coming forward with this information. I’m proud of my children, despite finding motherhood challenging, and believe it to be the most rewarding occupation for any woman.
It’s none of my business, neither do I really care if another woman has children. But the subject eventually comes up, and for reasons cited above, for fear of offending, those not in our ‘club’, should we mothers skirt (pun intended) the discussion?
Cheers. C
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My friend has a great response when asked a question you don’t want to answer, like the unprofessional man asking if Catriona has children. My friend says “why do you ask?”. It calls people up when they’re asking inappropriate questions or if you just don’t want to answer something (not only questions about children but e.g. ‘how much did that cost?’…). If the person does respond my friend then says “really?”. So she doesn’t have to answer the question anyway. V clever in my book
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I’m pretty sure my husband is asked (perhaps not weekly) if he has kids. Just people being interested. It would seem weird to ask if you have a pet??
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Isn’t the point of this article that the person asking thought she had enough time to use social media just because she didn’t have children, not really about the fact that he asked. Shouldn’t we focus on this instead of the age old debate about who has more time?
I don’t have children, would love them, and yes can be annoying that I am defined a lot of the time whether or not I have children, would love people to sometimes not ask me, but I get over it.
I think it is just hilarious that someone thinks there is a lot more time in the day due to not having children. What a ridiculous sentiment. There are other things in life my friends.
And I do believe people with children can also use social media. How do I know this? Since Facebook has turned into Bub Hub with a ridiculous amount of posts just about children, nappies, pooping, feeding, doctor appointments…..seriously? necessary?
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you know, people (like me) who have children get asked annoying questions too “what do you do all day?” “don’t you get bored?” “don’t you want to contribute finacially?” …who cares. people asks questions. it’s life.
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Seriously? If you are a middle aged person you will get people asking if you’re a parent. And I’m sorry but yes you probably do lead a very busy life but you aren’t a Mum yet so perhaps try and not re-ignite the old debate over whose life is busier, become a parent and then you will have the benefit of hindsight rather than just ignorance.
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that’s exactly right: everyone who has kids used to NOT HAVE KIDS!!! they know what it’s like on both sides of the fence because they have lived it, not just THINK they know about it…
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I wonder whether some people are natural whingers, before AND after kids.
I know people on both sides of this issue who whinge and those who don’t.
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I’d like to hear from the Mamamia team. Why have no staff members commented on this story? There’s a serious need for some staff input here but nothing has happened.
How do you prepare your contributors for the mauling they get from some elements of the comments section?
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Hi Anonymouse. We have been deleting any comments that abuse the author or any other commenters, as per our comment guidelines.
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With respect, the moderation on this post has been very late.
I think the Mamamia team need to give some serious consideration to the comments on this site as well as the effects on contributors of pieces. This post and its responses has been a car crash.
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Thanks for your comment, Anonymouse. We are always discussing the comments and how they can be handled so that both contributors and commenters can feel comfortable on the site – and still participate in debates. Yesterday was quite a big day in terms of the posts that went up; there were a lot of comments that required moderation across different topics. We do our best to stay across everything (and delete, edit, or remind people to stay civil, whichever is necessary and most suitable) but occassionally we do miss things. That’s why we also have the option for commenters to alert the site moderator in case they spot anything. Thanks again!
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Well, in order for me to assume whether you have children or not, I have to ask right? As professional and a mother – yes you can be both, I can see where Catriona is coming from and that there is a time and place to ask this question (or any other personal question), but her article unfortunately comes across as a rant.
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I think there are so many other questions one can ask to “break the ice” rather than go straight to the “kids” question. I’ve become more sensitive to asking questions about kids since finding out that a number of my friends have either had difficulty having children or have not been able to have them at all. After discovering that I had asked some rather insensitive questions while a dear friend was going through the grief of a miscarriage I decided not to ask “those questions” from then on. It quickly becomes apparent in a conversation if the person has children- in fact I think children become such a huge part of a person’s life that it will quickly surface in just about any conversation! I think going straight to the “do you have kids” question in a conversation with a person you’ve just met is pure laziness.
On the flip side though… almost all of the women at my previous church had children – I was working full-time- and they simply had no idea what to ask me to engage me in a conversation (or perhaps weren’t interested). If I wanted to talk about me I simply had to start talking about myself! (needless to say it didn’t happen very often). Most of the Mum’s conversations were child-oriented and I tried hard to participate despite my lack of personal experience.. unfortunately the interest was never reciprocated and I quickly gave up.
Perhaps the key to finding “icebreaker” questions that aren’t offensive is to actually BE interested in finding out about the person – not just categorising them and writing them off.
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Oh and I’m at home with my babies at the moment and I get asked at least twice a week ‘ so what do you do for work’ people are interested…. So what….
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I’m increasingly feeling like the only non offensive topic for small talk / getting to know someone / if someones ill is the weather…
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Love your point! Oh… but what happens if they are from a recent flood affected area… or their family is from a farming community and the crops have failed because of drought (to much sun?) or flood (to much rain!) or (god forbid!!) locus attacks.. lolo. You could be causing them distress by mentioning the weather… Yes. It sounds ridiculous when you put it that way, doesn’t it? Very much like thinking that because someone has tried to connect with you in a very general way that it is their intention to make you feel bad. Most people are just being polite or trying to be friendly. I feel sad thinking of a time that we refuse to start an innocent conversation with someone who could have the potential to become a friend, for fear of saying the ‘wrong’ thing…
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I hate that we are defined by our gestational status rather than who we are. So many women let their children define them. I am not a parent and its not likely that I ever will be but the myth that a woman isnt really a woman until she’s had a child is still with us.I might not be as engaged in as something as meaningful as raising a child but it doesnt mean that my life isnt as worthwhile or as important.The fact that a CEO could sit through a presentation by a woman and the first question he asked was about children and time means we havent come nearly as far as we thought.
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Why cant I ask you if you have kids? It’s just small talk. I am not doing it to embarrass you or upset you. How does anyone ever make conversation if you cant ask basic questions like this? It’s not as if I am asking you how much you weigh or how much you earn. It’s a simple question yes or no. I don’t read anything into the answer, I’m just trying to find something to talk about. I would equally ask a man the same question if I was trying to get to know him and he was of a certain age.
I can understand that asking you in the context of a business meeting and then using it to discredit you was inappropriate, but let’s separate small talk from business tactics and manipulation.
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Were you to ask me if I had children after my fourth miscarriage, believe me, Gin & Tonic, I would not consider your enquiry ‘just small talk’.
The lost art of communication is, apparently, rife.
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But Lottie, if you ask me if I have any siblings and one happens to have committed suicide it would be the same, people shouldn’t not ask just in case or conversation would be non existent
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Completely agree Daisy.
I tend to think its not the “do you have children?” question thats annoying or rude (I agree its great small talk), I believe its the potential follow up questions that people then think they’re entitled to ask.
Why not?
Are you going to?
When are you going to?
Aw, haven’t found the right guy/gal, hey?
What do you mean you don’t want kids?
Really, you can’t have them – how come, whats the problem?
For the record I’m pregnant so these questions don’t get hurled at me anymore but they are some that I’ve experienced in the past but moreso ones I’ve seen people ask my sisters or friends. And it is almost always the woman that is being asked. Even if the couple are both there the question is directed to the female.
THAT’s what I find annoying.
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I rest my case.
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I agree with Daisy. I cant ask you any personal questions for fear of it being something that will upset you?
“How are you” if someone has cancer is just as bad.
“where are you working now” if someone has just lost their job.
“How are your parents?” if they recently lost one of them.
Everyone has something that pushes their buttons, the trick when making conversation is that it is not in the asking of the first question but being sensitive to the answer and not asking more questions when they are not welcomed or warranted. I am not a mind reader, I cant possibly know what your personal issues are.
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I now have a child, but when I didn’t (which was for a looong time as I only just had a baby at 38 yrs old) I didn’t get asked if I had them particularly often and when I did get asked I didn’t mind or feel bad or whatever.
I haven’t read the comments but I imagine there’s lots of sturm unt drang going on.
I did get offended when the odd person (and I do mean odd) said things like ‘oh gosh, well you better get on with it dear, you’re not getting any younger’ but that only happened a couple of times. Just being asked whether I did or not didn’t bother me.
Other people can judge you as much as they like, but it can only affect you if you let it.
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There seem to be more and more just run of the mill questions that people can now claim to be offended/hurt/damaged by being asked. Starting a new job, I sometimes feel like, well, what am I allowed to ask these strangers about themselves? Can I ask if they are partnered? Apparently not, offends singles. Can I ask if they have children? Umm, no. Pets? What they did on the weekend?
I think we need to get over ourselves and just cope with the fact that these questions don’t always come with judgments attached, but are actually, gosh, useful when getting to know someone. If you don’t have children, you are extremely likely to either have a lot more time to do things other than care for children (who would have thought) or are getting someone to care for them while you do these other things. If your time is full doing other things, all good, but it’s not full with children. People with children ask this because when you have them and you don’t choose to get someone else to look after them all of the time, you just can’t choose to spend your time constantly on the net, or doing work-related things, or going to every social event that falls in an evening time. And I sometimes ask because I am amazed at how people manage to get so much done in a day, so I actually really want to know how they do it if they have children as well. If the person doesn’t have children, it doesn’t make them any less interesting, worthwhile, valid, busy or whatever. Just differently (meaningfully differently) so, and it changes how I might interact with them in terms of knowing more about when/how they might be unavailable etc.
People are getting really precious about what they can be asked. Like, because it’s so painful for those who want children but are having trouble having them or can’t have them, we are supposed to ask nobody if they would like to have children. I think this is ridiculous. Life hurts. We have to deal with it. People aren’t just flippant and careless when they talk to each other, in the main. Sometimes, yes. Not always. And talking is part of building relationships. If we can’t ask these things, then we won’t connect.
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Right on sista.
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I understand your point and it is helpful to re think how often we discuss the issue however with the exception of that man in your meeting and people being inappropriate, I think asking someone if they have kids is a reasonable question used to try to get to know you better
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I would love to be asked if I have children. And one day, I’d love to be able to say, YES I DO!
As a gay man, the question is never asked. But more importantly, imagine of I did have kids and that came up. What would be the next part of the conversation?
“should a gay guy have kids?”
“I wonder how he’s planning on making his kid(s) gay?”
“I feel sorry for the kid”
“the law shouldn’t allow this”…
And the list could go on. I honestly hope that one day, when I have a child or children of my own that we have come to a place as a society where the next thought/question will be – “how old are they?”
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Hey Daniel – in some places, some workplaces, some friendship places, none of those 4 questions come up, so cherish those. I have gay, male friends with children and I can honestly say that no one in their immediate circle blinks an eye or thinks twice about it. This is amazingly different than just 20 years ago, even 10, so things are on the up
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I hope so too Daniel and it is getting closer all the time.
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It is the lost art of conversation that is at the heart of this issue for me. So many people have lost the simple skill of inclusive, open communication. It’s a great shame.
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Agree, Lottie!
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Catriona, this was a good article but I felt you only touched the tip of the iceberg. It would have been nice if you had expanded a little more on what you do.
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Three pages of comments here and not a staff member in sight. Interesting.
What is it about the mothers and the non mothers on here? Why is it that most of the comments from the ‘busy’ brigade don’t relate to the actual post? The author states that there is a period of sadness in her life regarding children, and yet we still have posters scornfully telling her that she should rewrite the post when she’s had a few kids, then she’ll know what busy is. 16 people agreed with that comment. 16 people who presumably read the bit where Catriona mentioned the sad bit but still thought, “fuck you, I’m busy and you’re going to hear about how lucky you are.” Oh yes, very lucky.
Why is it that there have been women posting on here telling another woman that she has no children because no one wants to have sex with her, that she’s bitter because she has ‘no children in her crib’? I mean, seriously, what is that? Sure, she used the term ‘breeders’, but did you have to leap on her and spill out your bile as well?
Is this a forum for people to share opinions or is it a playground? A pissing contest for the ‘you think you’ve got it bad, my life has more value than yours’ bunch? I’m not sure after today. I’m pretty sure I’m done with it for a while, though.
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I agree. Many of the comments under this article have been awful. And the absence of the mamamia team has been conspicuous. They were all over the comment thread defending Em Rusciano when she was getting flamed over the breastfeeding article a while back.
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Totally agree with both comments above. The comments section both here and all over the internet is becoming more and more disturbing. The number of trolls and bigots out there frightens me.
I’ve always liked the freedom around posting comments here but I’m starting to think that MM need to tighten up their comments policies and have people start registering to comment.
I’d actually be fascinated to see a post from the MM team about the comments they get here – I’ve read a few articles on other big blogs about the same thing recently. It’s a problem everywhere it seems.
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Hi everyone – I assure you that we have been keeping tabs on the comments on every post and deleting or editing where someone is abuse towards the writer or other commenters (as per our comment guidelines). However – we can occasionally miss things, which is why it’s so much appreciated when people send us alert moderator emails. Thanks!
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I have children. I used to be a woman who didn’t have children. I regret wasting so much time before children because I can tell you now they engulf pretty much most of my time. I wish I had my before children time back so I can do all the things I have to compromise with now.
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Yes..and while we’re talking about ‘who’s busier than who’, I think the difference is that when you have kids, it’s not so much that you are busier than BC (Before Children), it’s just the relentlessness of parenthood. Try being woken up at 6am, every morning (yes, even weekends), for years and years. Even when you so badly need sleep. Even when you’re sick. Or being woken in the middle of the night on a regular basis. Alone time? Ha! That is gone. Say goodbye too to staying out after 10pm, or getting drunk, as you will never get a sleep-in. So no, perhaps not ‘busy’ per se, but def relentless and energy-sapping. It’s freaking hard work, paid only in love and cuddles.
Remember, child-free friends, us mums were once child-free too so, like it or not, we are in a position to compare!
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If mum’s love being mums so much – can they please stop freaking WHINGING about it?
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Agree, Kate. You made the choice, you deal. It’s not better or worse, it’s just different. Some people just like whinging, I think.
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I seldom come across a person who doesn’t have a whinge about some aspect of their life. So this type of statement really aggravates me.
Kateateight and Kris, tell me that there is NOTHING you whinge about.
A lot of people have a whine about the work: well, they choose to work there didn’t they?
Some whine about their in-laws: if you can’t stand them that much, why did you marry into that family?
Others whinge about how hard their exercise regime is: so, change it, you have made a choice to have that routine.
A friend or boyfriend/girlfriend is driving you crazy: well, break up with them, you have the choice.
See what I mean? And becoming a parent doesn’t exempt anyone from having the right to have a whinge every now and again. It’s like anything new. You don’t know what you don’t know and things can come as a big bloody shock and it take can take a lot of getting used to for some.
Your comment suggests that parents, even though they may face trials and tribulations, should just shut up and not express their feelings. Sorry, but like anything else in life that throws challenges at someone, it ain’t going to (nor should it) change.
For the record, I don’t have the time or patience to listen to anyone whinge about the same thing for too long or too much. But I grant people the opportunity to blow off some steam once in a while. It sounds like you are suggesting that all parents whinge all the time. It’s untrue.
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I totally agree that everyone is entitled to have a whinge – and that the vast majority of people do whinge. I know I do.
However, I personally think there is an inordinate amount of whinging done by mothers. In particular about things like – I get no help, no one values me, no one knows how hard it is, everyone judges me – etc. etc.
I personally have never heard anyone whinge about their job this much – let alone something they supposedly LOVE to absolute death.
Alternatively, it could be that I am just visiting this website too often.
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It could be that!
It could also be just that you hear someone have a whinge about the topic of parenting and that might actually be the one time they have mentioned it in a long while… it could just be unfortunate that you happen to read/hear it. It doesn’t mean that every parent whinges every day about their role in life.
It could also be that for a lot of people (definitely not all), parenting is by far, the most up and down rollercoaster journey that they have been on. There’s no way to know what it’s going to be like and there’s no going back once you’re there!
I’ll also agree that there can be nothing more tedious than listening to someone whinge about something that you have no connection with, cause, well, you just don’t get it. And I don’t mean that in a superior or sarcastic way, hand on my heart. I mean it in a matter-of-fact way. I have no idea what it is like to be a medical student, or a flight attendant, or a mother of twins. So, I don’t have the right to get fed up listening to people who live such lives have a whinge about them. Well, I might have the right to get fed up but I don’t need to roll my eyes about it and make those people feel bad about their current state of play.
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Kateateight I could not agree more! Even taking into account that perhaps you just happen to catch a Mum on a bad day, perhaps you know more Mums than doctors therefore wont hear doctors complain but will think Mums do etc there still seems to be an overwhelming culture of Mums complaining! It’s a smug and a whining “you don’t know anything without kids, you don’t know tired until you have kids, you don’t know busy, my labour was 50 hours…..well MINE WAS 80 HOURS I had it so much tougher. Comparing these stories of how tough it is almost as if they are proud of it yet they are complaining?! I can understand the power of a bitch and whinge and how good it feels to get it off your chest BUT I don’t chat at a party or dinner with a whole table about why my job is so hard and demanding etc., I will talk to a good friend! People don’t always want to hear your problems! I see how the culture comes out that it is nice to compare mistakes and things you have struggled with and all that because it helps you realise you are not alone and other people have difficulty but (in general) can I just say Mums you have taken it WAY too far!
I don’t really know how I have ended up writing such a long, blabby comment on this I was just so excited to see someone else with the same thought!
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Yeah, still agree. Cordy – I think my thing is if you’re not prepared to change something, why whinge? If something is pissing you off, do something about it.
I do agree it’s a competition, as Kathy points out – “I was sick EVERY morning” “Well I had morning sickness 24/7″ “Well I was so sick I ended up in hospital”. That’s fine, that’s their experience. But it is a competition for some people, and some people do just like to whinge. Then get huffy when someone like me says “Why don’t you try…” about whatever it is they’re whinging about.
I tend not to complain unless I want to know how to change something or intend to change it.
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I totally agree with you Kris. So much in life gets turned into a competition, it’s boring. I can’t stand the playground competitiveness that some parents thrive on.
I guess my main point is that not ALL mums are like this, no way. And so when I read comments from people that think that mothers are all like that I guess I take a bit of personal offence. I know I shouldn’t, but I think there’s a little part of me that feels the need to stick up for us mums that aren’t into competing in the ‘busy olympics’ (as someone put it brilliantly below).
I know there are heaps of parents who bitch and moan about their life as a parent, and sadly, it can make the rest of us look bad.
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SO well put, bravo for standing up for childless women. I am sick of the world being directed at “families”, or worse still, “working families”. There is a growing tribe of childless women out there who feel excluded every single time a politician or other person talks about “families” with the implied assumption that you only have one if you have children of your own. A good friend once told me that she didn’t trust Julia Gillard to understand family issues because she didn’t have kids. I said I assumed on that logic she couldn’t make decisions about Australia’s participation in Iraq or Afghanistan, as she hasn’t been a soldier. I personally don’t mind being asked if I have kids, I just hate the way the entire world is oriented towards those that do, making those that don’t feel marginalised. It’s going to become a big political issue one day, when a smart politican works out that there are lots of votes in the childless.
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“Working families” … spit. I’m part of a “working family”. I work, my bloke works, our siblings work, and my parents (used to) work. I am involved in the childcare debates, I know which Australian cities my family gets the best medical care in, I know the pros and cons of the different State based education systems, I’m keenly interested in intergenerational equity issues and I pay attention to how Australia’s foreign aid budget is spent. Our parents have nine grandchildren between them. They’re all part of my “working family”.
Any politician who assumes that they know who lives in my house is failing to read their tea leaves correctly.
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With respect, I have many friends at work who don’t have kids, and by their own admission, they have a lot more time that they are free to determine how they use for themselves. I’m not saying that people without kids aren’t busy too, but I would suggest they have more discretion to determine how to use their time.
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I really don’t see the problem with this question. I am married, don’t have any kids and often get asked if I have any. Likewise, I would ask another woman or a man if they have kids. It seems you can’t ask anything without offending someone…
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I recently attended my 20 year school reunion, and found that the question most people asked to break the ice was ‘So are you married?’ and ‘Do you have any children’? At the 15 year reunion, it was ‘So what do you do’? People just ask questions that they think have a reasonable chance of attracting a response that will open up a conversation. I don’t think ‘Do you have children?’ is an unreasonable question to ask someone of a certain age, and if the answer’s no, then one can move onto another question… It does feel like you have to be so careful these days, for fear of offending anyone who isn’t living exactly the same lifestyle as you!
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At my school reunion the conversation with one girl went like this:
Are you married? No
Do you have a partner? No
Do you have kids? No
Are you gay?
Answer: no. Not that it would be a worry if I was, but what an extraordinary leap.
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How funny! I had almost the exact same scenario, only it went like this …
Other person: Are you married?
Moi: No.
OP: Oh, are you divorced then?
Moi: No, I haven’t been married.
OP: Do you have a boyfriend?
Moi: No, not at the moment.
OP: Do have kids?
Moi: No.
OP: Oh, you must be very focused on your career then.
Moi: My career is important to me, but it’s not the reason I’m not married and don’t have kids. And no, I’m not a lesbian.
Assumptions aplenty in that conversation. I’ve also learned not to be sensitive to these questions, but to simply be honest and truthful in my responses. I no longer feel like I need to ‘defend’ my position.
The same goes for the questions about whether, at 38, I am thinking of having a child on my own/freezing my eggs/adopting a child.
We’re a curious bunch ’tis all. I don’t mind the questions, but I don’t want to be judged just like I don’t judge others, whatever their situation.
Basic respect peoples is all we should be aiming for … and understanding.
PS My life is full and I am busy. It’s just a different kind of busy to the busy I’d be if I had a husband or a boyfriend or children (which I’d like to if the stars aligned).
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Yes, I think the problem is not so much those common conversation-starter questions, but rather how we deal with the answers. The follow-on questions are usually the ones that can be insensitive and prying. If I were to ask someone whether they had children, and the reply was a blunt ‘no’, I would quickly move on, rather than asking them why they didn’t have children or whether they were planning to. If people want to get into things further, they’ll usually offer you more information to begin with, and I don’t think it’s usually that difficult to figure out when you’ve hit a raw nerve and it’s time to change the subject!
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First world problem
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Ah, here we go with the ‘first world problem’ comment – always said by those who have nothing to say.
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Thank you “anonymous”
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What does “First World Problem” mean?
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Well….I’m coming last in the ‘Busy Olympics’. And thank goodness for that.
I am a single parent, full time high school teacher, mother of two sons and have just spent all weekend marking and preparing for this week. But refuse to label that as being ‘busy’. It’s just my life, my choices and I choose to manage my time so that I have some time over to hang with my sons, relax, do some cooking, watch ‘Revenge’, sit on my balcony and drink wine with my girlfriends.
Ahhh,….the bliss of failing at ‘busy’..
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Exactly, Kathy! It’s just what you do. People often say “I don’t know how single mums cope”. Well, you just do. I don’t know any different, so this is what it is for me. The “busy” people who complain about it drive me nuts. If you don’t like it, don’t do so much.
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I find it annoying that a man in a professional setting asked whether Catriona had children, and assumed that by not having children that gave her time for social media. This question is unlikely to be asked of a man, as it would be assumed that he would have time for anything he wanted as his wife would be looking after the kids.
On a separate note, I have two children, and I am constantly looking to learn from inspirational women on how to better juggle my career and my family. Sometimes the interest around parental status comes from respect or seeking advice, not judgement. I do not think having children makes you automatically busier than someone else, but I do think it adds the challenge of often having to be in a particular place, at a particular time, doing a particular activity. I love to hear how other parents are creative with their time in this regard.
Saying that though, it can be incredibly insensitive to ask the question, as you never know anyone else’s situation. So I wouldn’t ask outright.
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I ask men that all the time, how they find time with kids.
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Mamamia, maybe you should cool it on the motherhood/non-motherhood posts for a while. It seems that neither side can handle it.
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Agree, they cause nothing but trouble and discussing the issues ad nauseum doesn’t ever get anyone anywhere and only serves to get people’s backs up and make everyone defensive of their choices. There was a post on here last year about people’s favourite book from their childhood, it was such a fun post with no nastiness. I know it wasn’t discussing some hot, political or newsworthy topic but gosh it was nice.
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agree totally, mamma mia. the motherhood stuff is sooooo boring (and I’m a working single mother of two, as everyone seems to insist on knowing your “creds”). please please … enough already!!!! I have actually stopped reading MM so much because it’s clogged with the usually pointless us-and-them motherhood gripes. how about a post calling for some imaginitive post ideas?
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i just have to say, if you find the post “soooo boring”, then why post a comment..
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It is a different kind of busy, being a parent. I would never suggest that someone without children is not busy, but there is more flexibility with how your time is arranged. Mothers in the workforce do often find it difficult to adjust back to work after having a child. For example I can’t just travel at the drop of a hat, or stay back for a meeting when I have to pick her up from childcare. I sometimes feel guilty about it.
As to the question, I hope you could see it from another angle… I do ask other women if they have children, not as a judgement, but because my life revolves around her. I took 2 years off to look after her full time, and as I’m a single Mum, I wasn’t going out much, or pursuing hobbies. My life was pretty much just her. Now I’m back at work, between working and parenting I still don’t have a lot of free time to do those things (which is why I enjoy a bit of time on social media, she’s asleep so I can’t go out).
So… what else do I have to talk about? My last job was in a team where no-one else had children, and I felt inadequate and boring. They would all chat about going to parties, taking pole dancing classes, going for weekends away with the boyfriend… stuff I just couldn’t do. Which I would love to do!
I am by no means saying I’m unhappy with my life, I feel incredibly blessed and can’t complain at all. But if I meet someone who has children at work, I’m relieved, because there’s a person I can talk to about this lovely little person who consumes my life. I ask because I don’t want to bore people without children who could care less that I was up at 2am with a toddler with growing pains. I hope that makes some sense… most of the time we’re just trying to break the ice and find some common ground.
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Further to this… Mia I’d love if someone can come up with a list of non-offensive ice breakers, because from the articles on here lately of all the things women shouldn’t be saying to other women… I’m at a loss for the things I CAN say!
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I get asked this quite a lot in both work and social settings and when I respond with ‘no’ it often tends to be an awful conversation stopper. Perhaps as I feel awkward and as if I am expected to justify why, or perhaps because the other person feels awkward…. Or a bit of both maybe.
But for me a worse comment is ‘you’re so lucky you can do…… Cause you don’t have children to go home to’. For many years I have worked long hours – 60 hours per week often. I have found some staff in my team expect that I will work extra as I don’t have kids, or take a back seat on holidays.
One comment that really shocked from one of my team members was ‘you’re lucky – you don’t have any kids to go home and feed so you CAN work late’. If I hadn’t been swallowing the lump in my throat I would have responded by telling her that I would consider myself lucky if I did (could) have children at home to feed.
So every circumstance is different but for me, this question of ‘do you have children’ is often quite upsetting.
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Good article. I am sick of peopke assuming you haven’t achieved anything if you don’t have children. Any 13 yr old can get pregnant, is it really such as achievement?
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I dunno, ask an infertile person and if they don’t swipe your face off, I guess it is not.
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I think the obvious point of that comment, which you might have missed, is that getting pregnant is not an achievement in itself, considering it is so easy (ignoring medical factors)
I think your reply was a bit of a non-sequitur
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Sorry but I won’t intentionally stop asking that question after reading this post. And I hope others won’t either..
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Hmm about the busy thing. My friends without kids tend to be busy doing fun, interesting stuff and those of us with kids tend to be busy doing lots of sucky, boring things. I often feel inadequate when catching up with childless friends (just been overseas, seen an amazing performance, had a weekend away somewhere exotic) and I have been busy doing lots of mundane chores that are not very interesting to talk about.
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But if you’re my friend, I am interested in your ‘mundane’ chores. Just as I hope you’re interested in my different experiences.
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Fun, interesting stuff is sometimes what you do to try & have a fulfilled life when it can’t involve having children. I’d give anything to be busy doing mundane, boring things.
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the grass is always greener…
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I felt the same prior to having children. I worked it a stressful corporate job and commuted three hours a day. I thought I was busy. But I hate to admit… Until I had babies I really didn’t know what busy was!
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In defence of Catriona’s original sentiment, I don’t think she’s asking not be asked at all, but more not have the judgement that follows the question….
I think the whole point is not that we shouldn’t ask questions, but that we should let the answer be whatever it is, without attaching our own stereotypical judgements to it…
Sometimes we can all feel like we are being labelled or put in a certain ‘box’ or category because of other people’s assumptions about our lives…that’s all the writer is saying.
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What I find off is that the CEO thought you were only knowledgeable about social media because you didn’t have kids and therefore you had time… If you were a man that comment would never have been said. Full stop.
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Agree. This is what we should be concerned about, not who is busier.
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why is there such a competition over who has the most time…if you have zero, 1 ,2 or 10 kids / 15 dogs or cats life is busy for most people. Yes it is starting a conversation but its the cutting comments that go with the conversation that are out of place. Someone managed to start a conversation with me the other day and found out where I lived as in street address and worked…all within 2 minutes…some people are damn right nosey !!
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i have been asked if i have had kids a few times. normally in social situations though, not professional. normally a theatrical shudder and an exclamation of “no freaking way!” works.
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in regard to the “who is busier” arguement, i would hazard a guess that no one is that busy if you have time to argue about it on MM
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