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marriage equality 380x570 No really, its time...

A scene from Sydney's Marriage Equality March in December 2011

BY MIA FREEDMAN

It’s Mardi Gras weekend and so I want to share this; it’s a transcript of the speech I delivered at the Equality Dinner in January 2012, organised by Australian Marriage Equality. Share it on your Facebook and send it to everyone you know. It’s the message that everyone needs to read today.

When Richard and Mildred Loving got married, they had to choose their location carefully. You see, Richard was white and Mildred was black and in 1962 America, this made their marriage illegal in 16 states including Virginia where they lived. Returning home after their honeymoon, police broke into their bedroom in the middle of the night and arrested them.

Much to the disappointment of authorities, Richard and Mildred weren’t having sex at the time so they couldn’t be charged with the crime of ‘interracial intercourse’. They were still hauled off to jail and charged for being married. The judge ruled their vows null and void, noting that “Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red and He placed them on separate continents. The fact that He separated the races shows that He did not intend for the races to mix”. Nice.

Richard and Mildred were forced to move to Washington DC where their marriage was recognised but after a few years they were desperate to visit their family and friends.  Facing arrest if they returned home, two civil rights lawyers took their case to the US Supreme Court where the judges overturned the Interracial Marriage Act in 1967. In their unanimous ruling, they noted that: “The freedom to marry has long been recognised as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men” (and women one would assume). Happy and orderly. Amen to that. The idea of two people being banned from marriage because their skin didn’t match is a preposterous one to consider in 2012.

So how can we blithely accept the same kind of discrimination based on sexuality? How long until we look back at 2012 and say REALLY? What were people THINKING? My guess is it won’t be too long. Because the arguments against same-sex marriage are just too silly.

There has been a lot of division over the past century so I wanted to start the night off with a quick mention of what we have in common. Kerryn Phelps and I both have a daughter. Both beautiful girls with doting parents. I know one or two of you out there who like to get stuck into a good political debate. Been there, done that.

Some of us share the joy of marriage. Others are happily single and drinking all the champagne.

And there are those in the room who haven’t been given the choice. Which, I must admit, seems a little odd. From where I stand I don’t see any reason why that might be the case. And yet, here we are.

I’m going to be frank. I don’t get it.

And not in an ‘I don’t feel like having the discussion’ kind of way. I just. Don’t. Get. It.

We’ve been having this discussion on the website I publish, Mamamia, for years now and in all that time I have not once encountered an argument against same sex marriage which makes any reasonable sense. Not once.

The most vocal opponents base their arguments on God and the bible. Which is ironic given that marriage certainly didn’t start out as a religious institution. For most of European history, it was simply a business arrangement. Love and God had nothing to do with it, which is why the church was anti-marriage; because it undermined its power base. Today, you may choose to get married in a house of worship but that’s not what makes your vows legally binding. Marriage is a civil institution so how can we allow some taxpayers to do it and not others?

In Committed, Elizabeth Gilbert’s book about marriage where I first read the story of Richard and Mildred Loving (yes, their real names), I also learned that over centuries, the only thing consistent about marriage has been its ability to evolve. Adapting to changing social standards is the only reason it’s still around.  So the idea of same-sex couples ‘eroding’ the institution of marriage is pure poppycock. It’s simply evolving in the same way it has for centuries.

its time 380x569 No really, its time...

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I’ve never understood the ‘eroding’ or ‘devaluing’ argument against gay marriage. If two people want to pledge their love and lifelong commitment in front of their friends, family and even children, what does that have to do with my marriage? How can that possibly be to its detriment? Does Tiger Wood’s definition of marriage affect mine? Hell to the no.

Gilbert also makes the point that as an institution, modern marriage is in pretty bad shape. Fewer people want to get married and those who do, often bin their vows a few years later. So while heterosexuals are walking away from marriage in droves, there’s a steady stream of gay people trying to head the other way. Except their path is blocked by governments and religious leaders because…well, nobody seems to be able to come up with a very good reason beyond ‘just because’.

Julia Gillard is neither married nor religious and I don’t for a moment believe her public opposition to marriage for same sex couples is her privately held view. It just doesn’t seem to fit. Hopefully the Coalition will move beyond a policy of “Not on our watch, buddy”.

Here’s a fun fact: when the US Supreme Court legalised interracial marriage in 1967, a whopping 70% of Americans strongly disagreed. It happened anyway. So when politicians hide behind public opinion polls, it’s disingenuous. And cowardly. Sometimes you have to do what’s right – not what’s popular – and public opinion inevitably catches up.

But here’s the real strange thing. Public opinion in this country is resoundingly in favour of granting marriage to same sex couples. All the major opinion polls from reputable agencies over the past few years have pointed to nation-wide support ranging from 55 to 70 per cent.

So what we have now is a case of our leaders snatching a civil rights defeat from the jaws of victory.

The message is loud and clear but we’re living in a remarkable and peculiar time when our leaders want to defy public opinions to keep human rights from growing and spreading, as they have done throughout the ages.

Against considerable turmoil, the following has happened:

In 1902 a group of people in Australia previously excluded from voting because they had uteruses were granted the right to have a say in their nation’s elections.

In 1962 a group of people in Australia, previously excluded from voting because they happened to live here before settlement, were granted the right to have a say in their nation’s elections.

In 1955 an African American woman called Rosa Parks staged a simple protest and refused to give up her seat on an Alabama bus for a white man.

In 1997, Tasmania became the last state to decriminalise homosexuality.

Well, it’s all just a little bit of history repeating, isn’t it?

One of the hardest arguments to try and counter is that same sex people should just accept a civil union and move on. That they might look ungrateful for pushing for the real deal.

Let me be very clear when I say this: you cannot be half pregnant on human rights.

The argument that gay people should have an institution called something else is just another version of the ‘separate but equal’ arguments schilled by those who never really cared during segregation in North America, or apartheid in South Africa.

It’s not good enough. There’s still no logical, sensible reason why marriage can’t be granted to all.

It’s not about children, either. Though the point seems moot as we have people in this room already raising well adjusted, beautiful, happy children in loving homes who aren’t married. The law has moved beyond this prejudice.

Maybe it’s about tradition? That’s a current favourite in the chatter you hear out and about.

But tradition, as I’ve already illustrated, is an oppressive beast.

If we followed tradition I’d still be gathering berries and the men in the room, yes, even you Alex, would be hunting mammoths and other large game.

I wouldn’t have the vote, blacks wouldn’t either. Sexual harassment would be kind of OK and legwarmers would still be ‘in’.

Tradition can go and get stuffed.

Tradition isn’t an argument for anything. It’s an argument against change. The kind of change that transforms lives and allows homosexuals to form relationships in Tasmania without the fear of forming criminal records too.

Not all same sex couples want to marry. Some don’t believe in it or think it’s unnecessary. Just like straight couples! Surprise! One gay man who has been with his partner more than a decade explains that he doesn’t want to marry but supports same sex couples who do: “I don’t really care why they want to tie the knot, I just want them to have the right to.”

I feel the same way and if you do too, start making some noise, start taking action. Let’s especially encourage heterosexual people and married people and single people to stand up and say, “I’m secure enough in myself or my relationship not to be threatened by the definition of marriage becoming a little more inclusive of other loving couples.”

There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

In December 2011, Mamamia’s News Editor Rick Morton joined Sydney’s marriage equality march along with more than 10,000 others. Here are some of the pictures he took during the day:

It's important to get the signs juuuuust right. My friends and I got to it this morning.

If you’d like to read more about marriage equality, try any of these posts:

Why does anyone come out? THIS is why.

18* arguments against gay marriage – and why they’re bollocks.

This video may change your views on same sex marriage.

Say ‘I do’ for marriage equality

How are you celebrating Mardi Gras?

Comments

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110 Comments so far

  1. Anonymous

    I feel like the foundation of your bias is very weak because you compare apples (race) to oranges (sexuailty). Two separate issues.

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  2. Hangga

    I think every couple either homosexuals or heterosexuals has rights to make their relationship into legal action :) and yes IT IS TIME to make an IMPACT.

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  3. Pingback: Dimond: This is why I’m boycotting marriage

  4. Guest

    “Julia Gillard is neither married nor religious and I don’t for a moment believe her public opposition to marriage for same sex couples is her privately held view.”

    Mia – just wondering why you don’t believe the PM when she has repeatedly stated this is her position?

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  5. Travis

    My opinion is that the definition of marrage,by the inventor of marrage said it is between a man a women.

    In other situations today when others like the design of an invention they can copy it but it still isn’t the same things…

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    • Gin

      Excuse me? Who invented marriage?

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  6. Anonymous

    Hi Mia,
    You should try reading the Arts and Letters webpage. It’s a fantastic resource and will provide you with intelligent, considered articles and commentary from the best writers, academics and intellectuals around the world. There are profound reasons both for and against gay marriage. I think you need to demonstrate a bit more maturity and be more respectful of those who disagree with you.

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  7. Anon

    You do know that in the wider community this adolescent demanding is falling on ever increasingly deaf ears.

    The straight people who are waving placards and ‘defending a minority’ are laughed at for behaving like the cool group in year 9.

    And we all know about the cool girls – as long as you pretended to agree with them they’d let you sit with them but stand up to them and they were hateful bullies.

    Looks like the cool girls now use twitter to bully and mock people who dare disagree with their latest cause.

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    • Another Anon

      I just don’t understand how you can make assertions like “this adolescent demanding is falling on ever increasingly deaf ears” that is not only not supported by evidence but, in fact, is even contradicted by the latest polling from almost every reputable enterprise. Please do not claim to speak for the majority – “in the wider community” etc. – unless it is supported by some kind of empirical evidence.

      Do you associate with a broad cross section of society, a mix of backgrounds and ethnicities and religions and socio-economic status groups? Do you have a group of friends whose education and experiences are varied? Or do you associate with people who, in the main, vote like you, believe like you, talk like you?

      There is an increasingly vocal minority calling for marriage equality. There is a significant group of people who, whilst not necessarily remaining silent on the matter, have other priorities such as economic issues, health issues, education etc. that they would prefer the government to progress before marriage equality. There are a vocal minority who reject the premise of marriage equality for a variety of reasons. Then there are those that are indifferent.

      I also don’t understand your analogy – how can supporting a particular issue mean that one is behaving like “the cool group in year 9″?

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  8. Phary

    “The most vocal opponents base their arguments on God and the bible. Which is ironic given that marriage certainly didn’t start out as a religious institution… Love and God had nothing to do with it”

    Mia, can I just make the point that, to a Bible-believing Christian, “love and God” have everything to do with marriage. The Bible has a considerable amount to say about marriage, and a Christian who marries usually does so for very Biblical reasons. Not to mention that, according to the Biblical account of history, marriage was instituted by God.

    I know you’re argument will be that religion shouldn’t dictate government policy, but maybe the religious would argue that atheism shouldn’t dictate government policy… and so we go around in circles.
    My point is just this – no matter what policy the government has, no matter what laws exist, they will discriminate against the beliefs and values of some group or another. There is no way to be equitable or truly “tolerant” on this issue.

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    • Rick Morton

      Marriage existed before the Bible, however. I think that’s what Mia is referring to.

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      • Anon

        Before the bible, after the bible – the bible has nothing to do with the FACT that it has always been between a man and a woman. Always and in every civilisation.

        And why is it always the bible that is used as an example and not the koran?

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        • Phary

          Thanks Anon. I agree. I used the Bible in my post because that is the text I know, but I have heard that the Koran and other religious texts have a bit to say on the subject too. For those of faith, marriage usually is inextricably connected to and defined by that faith and Mia’s take on the subject is completely disrespectful of that.

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        • Brendan

          because we live in Australia and our moral and ethics revolve around Christianity and the bible. Not around the Tora/Talmud, Kuran or Communism ruling.

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  9. Meri

    Righto, how about this …. ALL marriages have to be sanctioned by the Government as a legal binding between two ( and two only) consenting adults over the age of eighteen (really I think it should be over 30!)

    So the couple and their witnesses have to present at a registry office/Council Chamber and the paperwork will be completed, stamped and everyone given a 7 day cooling off period.

    Therefore all couples have the exact same rights and approval etc.

    Then they can go and have a bang up wedding where ever they want and religious blessings if they wish and if the church agrees that they meet their criteria – and remember that some straight couple don’t.

    There would be no need for church or celebrants paperwork to go to the Government as that has been taken care of and the churches can just keep their records as usual.

    Done – that would do me.

    I’m a divorce lawyer and keen to drum up as much business as I can – it will be a boon!

    After all, everyone has the right to be miserable.

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    • Guest

      Why only two? You are discriminating against the Poly Love community. All love is equal – why not love between three, seven of twenty people? Why?

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  10. Anonymous

    I have just found this via twitter where, I was told to bookmark this oage every time I hear an ignorant argument. I’m sorry, but I just want to register my displeasure at this tweet and article for this reason.

    1. I am pro equality, I am more than capable of creating my own argument. I do not need the support of a blog to back up my arguments.

    2. It almost feels patronising that this assumption is made that the only person who is able to create a functional argument for pro equality is Mia Freedman. I haven’t read this blog, and this self indulgent, arrogant tweet, has made me think I won’t return to this site.

    I hope you take this into account when you use social media, where body language, tone and facial expression is not a factor in the conversation.

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    • Anonymous

      I think your interpretation of that tweet is more about you and the way you’ve chosen to interpret it than the tweet itself..

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      • Anonymous

        I am sure it’s not. I showed this to someone at work. The first words that came out were “self-indulgent” without even showing them my comments.

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  11. Meri

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/free-press-to-be-sacrificed-for-political-retribution-20120303-1u9vk.html

    THIS is what people should be marching in the streets for! THIS is a cause that affects everyone!

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  12. Bo

    Is it ok if I please ask a theoretical question?
    Do those that support gay marriage (or the gay community themselves) also support incestual relationships and their right to potentially marry? If a loving relationship is defined as a commitment between two consenting adults; what difference is is that the couple are of the same sex or related to each other? Shouldn’t both the ‘incestual’ and the homosexual community have the same rights as heterosexual non-related couples? Just curious…

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    • CG

      Bo, I have no concerns about incestuous marriages because the basis of marriage is the protection and pro-creation of children so these relationships will remain taboo.

      What concerns me is the changes to the marriage act to incorporate religious rights. That will be next in line for the placard waving sheepie who love a ’cause.’

      I’d love to see people marching the streets demanding life imprisonment for anyone who so much as harms a hair on the head of a child.

      We have just had a mass rapist given parole. Two of his victims were an 11 year old boy and a 5 year old girl.

      No-one protested against that abomination.

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    • Guest

      The main argument I hear is that that marriage tends to imply a sexual relationship, this could lead to children, blood related people having kids together is generally harmful. The next main argument is the preservation of family structures – funnily enough the same argument used against homosexual marriage. I can see a connection.

      Theoretically there are a lot of holes in the argument though. What of people who don’t have kids? What of the rise in genetic testing to ensure a healthy child? In France and some European countries incest between consenting adults is legal.

      Personally as long as there is a chance of a child being born with genetic problems it’s a no. That is what distinguishes the homosexual relationships from incest ones for me.

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      • Bo

        Thanks for replying. What about adoption or third party IVF options for incestual couples in order to prevent the high chance of genetic diseases for their children? Surely wouldn’t that put them on par with homosexual couples who have children through these avenues – in order to create a family unit through non-biological means?
        I’m sorry for opening a can of worms here… But is there any difference between a heterosexual, homosexual or incestual (consenting adult) relationship and their individual rights to marry? I understand why people support the homosexual argument for equal rights but not the incestual (or maybe they do)…?

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        • CG

          A valid point, Bo. This is the trouble, it is a can of worms that is being marketed as a ‘no-brainer, just get on with it.’

          What’s the rush? Why does it have to be done immediately?

          This isn’t as simple as the right to vote and no-one should be rushed into it.

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          • Bo

            Sorry I couldn’t reply to your other thread… That is a very sad story about those children :(

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            • CG

              One of thousands, Bo. I will NEVER accept anything other that Never to be Released but no-one is up in arms about it.

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          • Anonymous

            Right to vote wasn’t “simple” at the time it was being fought for. That’s the whole point. It was a change in the way society viewed those who didn’t have the right.

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        • Guest

          I think it comes down to there is a chance of a biological child being conceived. Accidents happen, even if the couple intended to adopt/ivf.

          I do feel for siblings that fall in love, in those rare cases, but I don’t think it should be encouraged by allowing such couples to marry.

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  13. Frangipani

    I want a referendum on same sex marriage.

    Once the public have made their views crystal clear to the political leaders of our country they will have no excuses left and will also be empowered with a true mandate of the people to legislate on this issue.

    If churches don’t want to marry same sex couples then that is a matter for them, but for the state to refuse to do so in 2012 is appalling and the vast majority of Australians want this changed.

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  14. roserusso

    Fabulous speech Mia. And it is TIME!

    Just for the record, Miss T and I were under that gigantic rainbow flag – carrying it through the city during the marriage equality march was such a proud moment for me as a bisexual woman.

    Thank you for not staying quiet on this x

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    • MissT

      That’s the first thing I thought too! Oooh, those are our feet! It was a proud moment for me too. Something we will retell when we’re old and wrinkly, how we were on the right side of history.

      Great speech, Mia.

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  15. AJS

    For those who say marriage equality would ‘threaten their marriage’, I love this retort from hardline conservative Christian Elisabeth Hasselbeck (from ‘The View’). We don’t agree on much but I love this quote: “[LGBT] people marrying doesn’t affect my marriage. You know what affects my marriage? Divorce.”

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    • Kris2040

      Ha, AJS – that is the first time I’ve ever agreed with her about anything too!

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  16. katherine anne

    I couldn’t get past Tasmania decriminalizing homosexuality in 1997. 1997!!??
    How embarrassing!

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  17. Junebug

    Abolish marriage for all. Serioulsy.

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  18. JimmmyMick

    This is what I wrote in my submission to the Inquiry into the Marriage Equality Act and Marriage Amendment Acts:

    ====
    Marriage is a civil action defined, licensed and regulated by the Commonwealth. The alleged “arguments” against same-sex marriage are specious, based on wildly varying interpretations of religious doctrine and entirely unrelated to any actual facts about same-sex relationships.

    We are supposed to have separation of State and Church in this country. Why, then, does the Commonwealth of Australia allow religious groups to tell the nation who may and who may not be married?

    Allowing this situation to continue entrenches discrimination as official federal government policy, and tacitly encourages homophobic behaviour. I do not believe this is an acceptable state of affairs for any government, let alone ours.
    ====

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    • Meri

      Why wouldn’t they listen to religious groups? They listen to the unions and are governing with a ‘Green’ agenda. There are numerous lobby groups that influence the Government.

      The rise of atheism as a new religion and the attack on Christianity has become obvious lately. And what strange bed fellows the left have. They picket Jewish businesses in their alignment with Muslims, they won’t stop the boats full of Muslim men but they champion the rights of gays?

      Christians mightn’t be ready to marry gays in churches but they wish them no harm and accept them as part of our society. Muslims will stone them to death – literally.

      Why would the left be juggling ‘gay rights’ and ‘Islam’ at the same time? To destroy our churches?

      I haven’t stepped foot in a church for decades and I had a very close relationship with my gay cousin so I consider myself relatively impartial – to me, it smells like something else at work here.

      I’ve yet to hear the gay community deny that once they’re granted civil marriage they won’t start on the churches … why?

      Is the gay community happy to accept full and just marriage equality without the religious blessing?

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      • Sallly

        So true, this is why marriage equality is not the answer as its too entrenched with religious doctrine not civil rights of citizens.

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      • JimmmyMick

        Of the gay and lesbian people I know, they aren’t particularly worried about being able to have a marriage ceremony in a church, they just want The State to recognise and permit them to marry. The problem is that due to the influence of religious groups over our federal parliamentarians, this is currently impossible.

        You appear to be assuming that no church would ever allow gay or lesbian couples to marry. Better go and check with those churches then, because your assumption is invalid. Observe the policy on same-sex marriage which the Australian Uniting Church has had for several years. Observe, also, that a Baptist Church congregation in North Carolina has voted to prevent its pastor from performing *any* ceremony of marriage (only “holy unions”) until same-sex marriage is legal (http://www.christianteenforums.com/showthread.php?78105-Baptist-Church-Refuses-to-Perform-Marriages-until-Same-Sex-Marriage-is-Legal).

        In the rest of your comment, I see a lot of rambling fear of “other”.

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        • Meri

          For the record – I don’t care if churches marry couples, I just won’t abide them being forced to and dragged through the courts for anti-discrimination. If that happened it would set the cause back decades.

          i’m not ‘getting’ your last sentence.

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          • Lulu

            Who said anything about churches being forced to marry couples?

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            • Guest

              Let’s not put our heads in the sand and pretend this won’t happen Lulu. Proprietors of wedding industry businesses in the US are being sued for refusing to provide service to gay weddings – venues, cake decorators, Bed & Breakfasts, civil marriage celebrants etc. This will extend to churches and religious ministers as a matter of course.

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  19. Ella

    I’ve just come off the medical team. Was a great night. & this year (perhaps because the rain kept the losers who just want to make a scene & cause problems away).

    It’s always difficult doing Mardi Gras medical, mainly because people don’t like us impinging on the view when we’re treating people. It always surprises me how drunk people get – ruining the parade not only for themselves, but for their poor mates who go to emergency with them, or take them in a cab home.

    Mardi Gras is the one night of the year where this “straightly180″ feels like a minority. It’s very strange experiencing judgement based on my sexuality as a straight woman, when i’ve never experienced it before.

    I support the rights of my gay/bi friends to express their love as they chose to & to marry who they love. It’s that damn simple. I can marry who I fall in love with; why can’t my friends?

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  20. Laura

    FABULOUS.

    Perfectly put.

    Thanks Mia.

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  21. Anonymous

    What about if one half of the partnership becomes ill and his/her partner has no rights to even be in the same room, unless permission is granted from his/her nearest legal relative? What about if that partner is denied access because the family don’t approve of a gay relationship.

    Drives me batty that in this day and age we are still arguing about this in 2012. The example of Mildred and Richard sums it up perfectly. What I don’t understand is why our politicians are too gutless to listen to the polls that are telling them that the majority approve of gay marriage?!?!?

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    • Anon

      Why aren’t they listening to the polls that say we don’t want a carbon tax?

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      • Guest

        Sometimes the government needs to decide to do things for the good of the nation, regardless of what polls say. Marriage is a social issue, it’s reasonable to look at polls.

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    • Kris2040

      I thought we’d overcome that, then sat and talked to some of the dykes on bikes tonight 2 years ago. Just blew my mind how much they still have to put up with unless they had sympathetic nurses on the ward (which most are, happily). It was so sad hearing some of their stories. :(

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  22. Vivie

    Well said, Mia!

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  23. looby

    This is not about religion or genitals. It is a legal issue.

    Imagine that 2 people that love and are committed to eachother live together. They may buy property together. They have supported eachother finically and emotionally. They may have brought children up together. Doesn’t that sound like a marriage ?

    It does to me. But legally, the law does not recognize this union. Imagine the family of your partner coming in after your partners death and saying That you have no rights to what as a couple who have achieved.

    Just make it fair !

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    • Caro

      As far as I’m aware the laws have caught up and homosexual couples now have the same legal rights as heterosexual de facto couples.

      The ‘family won’t let them into the hospital room’ arguments could be applied to de facto couples as well. I have a friend whose daughter lives with a much older man. They loathe him with a passion and would happily enter a full blown brawl to keep him away from her at every opportunity.

      It’s ‘families’ who are the trouble not the law and I don’t find it an argument for marriage – otherwise why aren’t we saying that de factos have second rate relationships and aren’t real families?

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      • Dan

        Defacto couples choose to defacto

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  24. amyintheworld

    Don’t really have anything to add, Mia – you said it perfectly!

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  25. Guest

    The piecemeal approach to same-sex rights has lead to some extraordinary injustices. We need a blanket full rights approach and this includes marriage.

    Cases in point: Same-sex couples are recognised by centrelink and receive less benefits than singles. This I believe is just, same-sex should be treated no different to hetro, what is unjust however is that the government are quite happy to save a buck by doing this without giving accompanying rights such as marriage. Happy to take money off you, not happy to give you rights!

    Also: In many states same-sex cannot adopt or undergo IVF, but they can foster. How is this in any way logical? Same-sex couples are good enough to foster children in difficult circumstances for very little pay, reward or recognition but cannot start a family of their own. Happy for you to shoulder society’s burden, not happy to let you have rights!

    Full and equal rights across the board, including marriage.

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  26. Sallly

    For the record I don’t believe in equality for homosexual marriage based on religious reasons. It’s simply between man and women to be married before their religious denomination.

    However, if the state allowed it then so be it. This is what has always surprised me about marriage and it’s sanctity. Why do we have to get a marriage license by the state. What the eff does the government have to do with it? To me, you get married by the church, rabbi, sheikh etc is what matters as that’s the origin of marital relationships.

    So in saying this, does this mean we live in a society in which the government is bound by religious principles/doctrine – despite being a secular democracy? Also why is there an age requirement on marriage in Australia?

    Please note I am not anti gay marriage on this – just puzzled about the state and government role.

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    • amyintheworld

      Hi Sally,

      Marriage isn’t actually a religion insititution originally. It’s been occurring long before recorded history as a means to ensure treaties between tribes or villiages, a mean to protect a woman (by making sure she is financially stable), a mean for a man to be more certain of his paternity, a means for a family to earn money (by selling a daughter etc) and many more. The church began performing marriages quite recently (the last 1000 years or so). The traditional reason a woman takes her husband’s name, for example, is actually because the woman, after marriage, then became the property of the man (lovely!).

      Also the reason there is an age restriction is because anyone under the age of 18 is considered a minor in Australia, and thus incapable of fully understanding the meaning behind the consent they are giving. I know there’s not much of a difference between an 18 year old and a 17 year old, but I guess they have to draw the line between minor and adult somewhere!

      I hope that helps your confusion – if you’re more interested in the history of marriage, maybe do a bit of research? But stick to peer-reviewed articles etc, because they will be written by history writers and those who’ve done thorough research themselves using primary sources as well as secondary :)

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      • Sallly

        Dont be so insulting. Marriage as a contract was adopted via religious unions. Treaties between tribes or even animals in the wilderness are merely a matter of exchange. The sacrament of marriage are based on vows under the principals of ones chosen faith based on the ‘boom’. As for a women taking on a mans name – well this according to some is a tradition adopted through Christianity to indicate she now belongs in the care of her husband and not her father. In Islam, a women retains her maiden name as she never belongs to the man and the option of divorce, while its the most disliked activity of Allah, is also permitted.

        As for your explanation about the consent age to get married – does not clear anything in regards to the role of the government in the permittance of marriage.

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        • Sallly

          Book not boom

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        • Kris2040

          But whether you like it or not, Sally, Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on marriage.
          Not everyone is a Christian, so why should we have to live under your perception of Christian rules?
          If the choice is there, how does it affect you? If you don’t want gay marriage, don’t marry a gay person.

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          • CG

            Not too keen on Christianity? OK, how about Sharia? And how many tribal marriages were between homosexual couples.

            Since the concept of marriage began it has always been between a man and a woman.

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            • Kris2040

              Not too keen on any religion, actually. I was, however, responding to Sally’s comments which were from her Christian viewpoint.

              This is a legal argument, and that does affect me. At the moment I can get married if I choose to, because I happen to be attracted to men. If I were attracted to a woman and decided I wanted to marry her, I couldn’t. LEGALLY. Nothing to do with any religion. And that isn’t fair. Why does extending rights to people who don’t enjoy them do anything to the people who already enjoy those same rights? Oh, that’s right, it doesn’t.

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            • Guest

              Why can’t the concept of marriage evolve? If we refused to never move on from tradition we would still be living in caves, houses being against traditional ways of living and all.

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        • amyintheworld

          You said that you were confused about why the government would be involved and so I tried to offer an explanation. I certainly wasn’t trying to be insulting and I’m strugging to see what is so insulting about offering information.
          I studied history and majored in anthropology, and through my degree and schooling I learn that historically, marriage has been around far longer than many religions. I’m not trying to be insulting, just mentioning the facts as I understand them.

          My explanation about consent age is because it is the law that says what age an adult is, thus what age they deem acceptable to give consent with full knowledge and understanding.

          I’m sorry if I did insult you, but I honestly thought I was being helpful.

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          • Sallly

            All in the cool in th hood my dear. That’s the shit thing about online forums we lose emotion, tone and general sense of conversation

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        • Corey

          I don’t think there was anything insulting in Amyintheworld’s comment – it was eloquent and politely put, and answering a direct question you asked.

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      • Phary

        Gee… if it has “been occuring long before recorded history” then how on earth do you know so much about it?

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    • Guest

      “To me, you get married by the church, rabbi, sheikh etc is what matters as that’s the origin of marital relationships.”

      Life is ever evolving and this includes traditions. Forget origins (which as the above poster points out evolved from non-religious anyway) marriage has now evolved to include a secular version sanctioned by the state, covered by a marriage licence that has nothing to do with religion. There really are two issues in this debate that need to be teased out. What religious faiths do in regards to this issue is up to them and the members of that faith. What the state does with secular marriage is another issue and one that should concern us all. Marriage is NOT religious in this country. Marriage is secular, people just add a religious ceremony on top of what the state has recognised. If you go and get a priest to marry you it does not count until you file the paperwork with the government.

      There is no reason why same-sex marriage shouldn’t exist. Marriage is a one step process – a marriage licence granted by the state, the religious stuff shouldn’t even come into. Thats up to the faiths to work out. People who want to ADD the OPTION of a religious ceremony on top of the secular marriage procedure should not be influencing this debate.

      I want to get married in a secular fashion because I believe marriage can be seen as a tradition indicating commitment and love. For me religion has nothing to do with it. I have that right, so should same-sex couples. As for same-sex couples who want secular marriage and religious marriage – well settle in a for a loooong wait, but at least secular marriage would be a start.

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      • Sallly

        I absolutely agree with you on this point and it’s well said. This is my confusion with a marriage license. if its not secular, then why do they have a law to govern the formation or marriage. I just don’t get why a license by the government should allow you to ‘be’ married, when it means nothing to the government regarding the formation of a union

        Is simply makes me think this is wrong as they can put an age limit so freely yet there are limitations on other areas such as homosexuals. To certain degree, it has not evolved, the state still runs on religious premise as the back bone for certain laws they should to control. Marriage can be a ceremony either religious or non religious period. Government needs no involvement or right to step in.

        But I guess they need obtain ANOTHER form off revenue from the citizens by charging a fee for the licencse.

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        • Guest

          I get where you are coming from. I see two issues here – 1. why do we need a licence? and 2. why does the government care if I’m married?

          1. We need a licence as not all people should marry. This is to protect society and protect the vulnerable. Someone needs to say, no, you cannot marry your brother. And no, you cannot marry off your 8 year old daughter. This is where some people add ‘….and homosexuals also shouldn’t marry’ and where we as a country are arguing. The solution is not to get the government to back out of licences all together, it’s to get the them to move with the times, just like when inter-racial laws changed.

          2. Why does the government need to know? This is just a paperwork thing. When you marry you get certain benefits, like with tax and so forth, or being someones automatic next of kin. Registering your marriage with the govt is really just about the ensuring your rights and letting the govt know.

          As for the licence fee, marriage costs the govt a hell of a lot more than it brings in!! The govt gives benefits to married couples (I’m not sure how far things extend to de facto) like tax breaks, and the cost of sorting out a divorce (a huge % of marriages end that way) often ends up in the government’s lap in court. If the govt could walk away and say ‘sort it out with a hand fasting ceremony and don’t call us when things go wrong’ they might like that!

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          • Sallly

            Thank you so much ‘guest’ for your answers. It amazes me even more that the marriage laws u have pointed out are also derived from religious laws such as incest etc.

            Do u think the actual notion of marriage governed by the state is what is necessary to show unions ship are valid to determine equal rights? I think there should be a declaration for partners right but it simply should not fall under the banner of ‘marriage’.

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    • Lulu

      “To me, you get married by the church, rabbi, sheikh etc is what matters as that’s the origin of marital relationships.”

      That’s what it means *to you* – but there are a lot of people who see it differently, including the many heterosexual couples who are married each year by civil celebrants.

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      • Anonymous

        Completely agree, both me and my partner are completely non-religious and when we get married it will be done by someone who has nothing to do with any religion. How does your religious argument stand up for to that one? We can get married, and have no religion included, and yet it’s still called marriage…

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  27. Fedupfirst

    Marriage is a LEGAL right in this country. All Australians should share the same legal rights. FULL STOP.

    If a church doesn’t want to marry a couple (because they are gay, or of different religious beliefs or whatever) then that is their choice and they must wear the consequences of that (including action on anti-discrimination grounds).

    The Government should not continue to allow any group to be discriminated against under Australian law.

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  28. Meri

    The question of gay marriage should go to a referendum.

    Personally, I have no problem with it but I expect it’s a new ‘religion’ being pushed more by those wanting to destroy our churches than by gays themselves.

    I very much doubt it will stop at marriage in a civil ceremony and highly suspect that churches will be dragged through anti-discrimination courts for the next decade. I don’t think that’s right and just because atheists say it is doesn’t make it so.

    My gay associates laugh about it. They have no desire to join the vanilla suburbanites.

    De facto families are no less families than married ones and I really can’t see that marriage is a ‘human right.’

    Having said that, I grew up with my mother’s cousin who was gay. He died from HIV/AIDS in 1983, at home in my Nan’s house where she and mum had nursed him – not realising it was aids but melanoma. It wasn’t till his lover became ill that we realised. It wouldn’t have stopped them though.

    He was so loved and so missed. Nan used to worry about him so much. She was always worried that he would be lonely when he was old and I know that even though she was born a hundred years ago she’d be firmly on the pro side of this debate.

    I think the Mardi Gras has had its day. Bum cheeks and public pashing by night, soccer mum’s by day. The gay community has moved on from this. It’s done it’s job and saved a lot of kids but the gay community is now a normal, accepted part of society. No big deal anymore.

    I think it needs to be canned and I think the chest thumping, shrill demanding that they be allowed to get married NOW is doing them no favours.

    Change takes time. One step forward, another step back. Mardi Gras needs to adapt to the times and listen to what the community wants in 2012.

    It just seems like an immature cause celebre the way people are carrying on – like it’s the cool thing to do and if you dare disagree we’ll call you names and crucify you.

    Just saying!

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    • Blossom

      Meri you have no idea. Your comment is patronising in the extreme.

      Human rights don’t need a referendum.

      Just saying.

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      • Meri

        Who says that homosexual marriage is a human right, Blossom? I heard a guy on the radio saying that computers were a human right and therefore all prisioners were entitled to them.

        Being treated equally and without prejudice is a human right but the laws in this country have been adjusted (by Howard, I believe) to ensure that the same laws that protect de factos relationships apply to homosexual ones.

        Referendums ensure the will of the majority, not the pressure that’s applied to politicians in their vain glorious attempt to stay in power. If they listened to the opinion of 70% of the population then the carbon tax would be in the bin.

        Democracy is ruling for the majority, not noisy minorities.

        The Aboriginal vote went to a referendum, remember? And I’d say that is a human right.

        Not being forced into marriage is a human right but that’s it.

        Should Muslims be able to take as many wives as they wish because it is their human right under freedom of religious belief?

        The marriage of underage girls, cousins, arranged marriages and on and on. These things are all practiced in different cultures … just saying this is a can of worms.

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        • Blossom

          I see that we will not agree on this Meri. So I shall just go back to my ‘noisy minority’ suburban life with my wife and two children. Wife? Oh yes, we were married 7 years ago in New Zealand.

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          • Meri

            Congratulations to you Blossom and all the very best. As I said, I’m not against homosexual marriage per se but I suspect there is an invisible party here that is using this to push their own agenda.

            And when it is passed, as it inevitably will be, there will be people on the street waving banners and caught up in the fervor for another cause celebre.

            Old and cynical, probably … but you get to see the pattern after a while.

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        • amyintheworld

          I really don’t like it when people bring in arguments about other cultures and things like underage girls or polygamy. Marriage is about consenting adults. So there is no can of worms, because we aren’t discussing the ‘right’ for someone to marry a child for example. We’re talking about extending the right to wed, since it is a legal institution, to include all consenting adults, regardless of their sexual orientation. I do see it as a human right. A civil right. Gay men and women have jobs and contribute to society, they pay taxes, they provide their communities and the society at large with services that they might need or want. So why on earth can’t they have the same civil, legal right of marriage?

          Also, John Howard actually changed the law so that it specifically said ‘between a MAN and a WOMAN’ when before it said ‘between two consenting people’ or something along those lines, so I wouldn’t be patting him on the back for any defacto rights he might have given out as a consolation prize.

          The thing about marriage is that other people’s marriage in NO WAY affects yours (as Mia said). I’m getting married in october, and if another married couple decided to swing or have an open marriage, it would in no way affect my marriage. So having a referendum is ridiculous. It should NOT be up to the rest of the country to decide something that will affect them in no way. Yes, we had a referendum to give Aboriginal people the vote, and you know what? We shouldn’t have. The government should have just done it in the first place. Because being able to vote on things that affect you as a citizen of a nation, is a civil right also. Being able to marry the person you love is also a civil right, but the difference is no one else should be able to vote on it, as it doesn’t concern them

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        • Kris2040

          “Being treated equally and without prejudice is a human right”. Right. So why can’t 2 adults in a consenting relationship but who happen to have the same genitals get married, and because I like blokes, I can? Sounds like your definition of a human rights issue, to me.

          Just saying.

          Happy Mardi Gras!

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          • Anonymous

            Hey Kris, what about 3 or 4 consenting adults. Shouldn’t they be able to have a legal ‘marriage’ too? Why just 2 adults? And if you take it to the extreme, what about if I love my pet dog? Why can’t I marry him/her if I love them? I’m not being silly but i’d like to know where you draw the line and how you determine that line?

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        • Rebeck

          Referenda are about changes to the constitution.

          The only mention of marriage in the constitution is the granting of power to make laws on marriage to the federal government.

          There’s nothing to have a referendum on.

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    • MJ

      As far as I’m concerned homosexuality is not accepted by the community until homosexuals have the same legal rights as hetrosexuals.
      Mardi Gras is an amazing celebration. Legal equality and freedom from discrimination is a HUMAN RIGHT.
      Your associates who happen to be gay don’t want to get married.. that’s completely irrelevant. That’s like saying I have a friend from Sweden who hates cats, so all Swedish people should be banned from owning cats cause they don’t want them anyway.

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      • amyintheworld

        Right on, MJ. My sister in law and her partner have a son together, but don’t want to be married. But so also, do two of my friends who are heterosexual couple. They are defacto, with a small son. They don’t want to get married either. Difference is, they COULD is they wanted to. My sister in law doesn’t have that option. And she should.

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  29. kateb

    there are so many of these “christian” people who haven’t even read the bible!!!!
    Mia what a great article and i am feeling all inspired to ….what !!! i can write to my MP, i can write to the papers, but what we need is a large group to support, and no i haven’t the time nor the inclination. too much else on my plate.

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  30. Mel

    Just being lazy, but I am pasting what I wrote on a friends FB page today to save me re typing it.

    “I need to say that it is state and not religion that defines marriage and makes the laws about it. Yes some marriages are done in a church in a traditional religious way but some are not and leave god completely out of the picture when they marry. I think the argument about whether or not god would accept same sex marriage is completely invalid and an argument used because a true argument cannot be developed. It is my understanding that there are rules n regulations within the government that prevent the use of religion and religious values when making decisions for this country. Using Christian, Catholic, Muslim (I know that will never happen, but it helps prove my point) or denominations within religion to make laws and decisions is like pushing religion on others and this is not okay, EVER. People have the right to decide what religion they want to believe in and no one should be forced based on the belief of the ruling few. Religion and state are two separate entities and should be treated as such. A decision should be made by the government about what is best for this country. I’m sorry if gay marriage offends a few, but not allowing it oppresses so many others!”

    I agree with Mia in that I have never heard an argument against same sex marriage that makes sense or is based in logic. My view is that it is like kids at school saying no because I don’t like you. Really how in the hell does two, gown, adult, consenting adults the same sex impact on me and my relationship or on me in any way? It doesn’t! That is the only honest answer people can give. If people say otherwise they are lying. Like many wise people have said, if repeat marriage offenders (people who marry 3, 4, 5 times, cheat and do not value the vowels they gave on their wedding day after that day) are able to continue marrying then why can’t two loving people just because they wither both have a penis or both have a vagina. That does not make sense. I do not see how having a couple comprising of both parties being of different gender makes the marriage any more ‘sacred’ or in line with the ‘real’ meaning of marriage than a couple comprising of two people of the same sex. This debate really perplexes and frustrates me, it is just so oppressive for a government to not only ignore what the majority of the country support and to deny a large number of people their basic right to love who they want and to marry if they want (if the decide to, which is the whole point same sex couples should be afforded that choice).

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  31. backagain

    Fantastic speech Mia. Very powerful. Let’s change the damn law already!!!

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  32. Simba

    I read Elizabeth Gilbert book ‘Committed’ a couple of Christmas’ ago. Definately one of the best books I’ve read. The way she explores commitment and the role marriage may or may not play in a commited relationship is excellent.

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  33. Phillipa

    Does Mia know her thumbnail pic has no head? (off the topic I know)

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  34. Tess

    This is an important discussion to have and I’m glad that this forum is a positive way to express everyone’s feelings about equal marriage rights in a constructive way… Thank you Mia for expressing your view and encouraging us to talk about it (particularly during Mardi Gras season), and I hope that others can share their thoughts about it too. 

    I have been reading and thinking a lot about the potential equal marriage law changes and I really hope there continues to be discussion and debate… But there is something that I really need to get off my chest… Sometimes I feel that the way Christianity, or more importantly the teachings of Jesus Christ, are somewhat misconstrued in the equal marriage rights and homosexuality dialogue… I know that this is going on a bit of a tangent and not the central theme of Mia’s post, but I think it’s important to clarify something on behalf of the ‘religious’ perspective… There seems to be this sense that that the church is actively plotting against homosexuals and that it is somehow the worst and most disgusting sin a person can commit beyond any other, and that homosexuals should be punished through exile and become society’s pariahs because being gay is ‘unforgivable’ in God’s eyes. I can’t speak for all churches or other Christians (and certainly some have treated people shamefully and not according to what Christ’s teachings about love), but I can speak for myself as a Christian and with my interpretation of God’s word. Yes, the Bible does indeed say that homosexuality or other sexual ‘immorality’ is a sin, and that marriage is a union between a man and a woman… But nowhere does it say that homosexuality is a sin worse than any other, or that Jesus was crucified for all of our sins except for homosexuality… He died for EVERYONE and he loved EVERYONE, and He wants you to know it… And besides, is there anyone – even Christians – who has never sinned and never will (except Jesus)? All our deeds are the same in God’s eyes but what matters most is what’s in our hearts. Jesus didn’t consort with rich, corrupted and hypocritical religious men… He hated this! He spent time with the poor, the sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors… Because they, like everyone else, needed to be loved. And they, like everyone else, were saved by grace not by their perfect actions… The sins (sin meaning anything I do that moves me away rather than closer to God) that I commit are between Him and I, and I am saved not because I don’t ever sin but because God forgives me… If you are gay and think God doesn’t love you and made you with loving purpose then please reconsider… 
    I know I’m going on a tangent here, but I think that if Jesus were alive today he would want the gay community to not be put off by ‘religion’ and come to know Him and feel His eternal love for them as his blessed children in their hearts… Homosexuality is a private conversation between a person and God (even if you feel that it is the wrong way or the right way to live in your heart) and not for another person to make judgement on. Sadly, many people – including some Christians – do not act kindly and loving (but remember what the Bible says about casting the first stone)… I hope that one day more people, everyone and anyone, can know that they are wanted and loved by God no matter what and not feel blocked by their perception of Christianity or religion to be able to do so.
    I’m sorry for getting off topic and thank you for letting me voice my feelings… 

    God is love.

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    • Anon

      Well said. I am a church going christian and support your beliefs

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      • Tess

        Thanks Anon… Sometimes I feel like the Christian and homosexual community should show the most compassion for each other as both sides experience discrimination, bullying, violence and stereotypes… We have more in common than we have differences…

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  35. Lisa

    I’ve had a similar conversation with people over the years – one day we’ll be saying “I can’t believe they didn’t allow same sex marriage – how backward were they in 2012!!” the same was we talk about interracial marriage now… “I can’t believe it used to be illegal!!”

    Great work Mia.

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  36. Poppy

    Wonderful speech Mia. You look the words right out of my mouth. Well almost, I would have been less eloquent and just gone with, “you’z against givin the gays equality are jus bat s#@t crazy ‘. Unfortunately, that would be counterproductive. Instead, I truly believe if we keep fighting the good fight and
    keep lobbying with the same ferocity as

    those on the other side, there will be an end to this madness.

    fact is

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  37. Kate

    I have had the dress pattern for a beautiful wedding dress for 15 years, its still uncut and pristine in its packet. In 15 years we have bought (and sold) houses, moved to the country, had three children and have done what all other families do with their time: work to give their children the best life possible But still while I do work for my school’s P & C, have assisted with reading & homework, run kids to ballet, swimming, soccer & cricket and all other ordinary things that families do, I am not allowed the ‘ordinary’ way to express my lifelong love and commitment to my partner that others are allowed. In short I want to get married, I want to walk down the aisle with my dad, wearing a meringue of a dress, exchange vows and rings, and party with friends and family. I want to be someone’s wife and I want to introduce my partner as my wife. I just can’t see how our fairly suburban family life is going to risk the institution of marriage. I just must be missing something here.
    Thank you Mia for giving voice to people like me.

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    • Lisa

      This comment needs to be turned into an entire blog posting! It’s wonderful and so true.

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    • jcinerari

      Kate, I hope hope hope you get the chance to finally wear that dress. You have well and truly earned the right. Best wishes for the future and hold on to your dreams.

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    • Anonymous

      Gr8 comment Kate – so bloody true – why can’t you guys get married it’s madness total madness. I have a few gay friends who are wonderful mothers who have been in marriages with men that haven’t worked out and are now with women and they all get on well for the sake of the children and just are lovely lovely people.

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    • elli

      *Throws rice at Kate & Mrs Kate*

      My opinion is a bit of yours, and a bit of “why should I be able to marry one person I’ve dated but not another, purely because of one small chromosomal difference between them?”

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    • Lizi

      Simple, sincere, and so moving. May you use that dress pattern soon, Kate.

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  38. JosieY

    Off topic, but when I saw the title of this post I thought it was ging to be poor old Mia defending herself against allegations of photoshopping again!

    And by the way, I know you are all sick to the death of me mentioning it but I BELIEVE IN GOD AND I BELIEVE IN MARRAIGE FOR ALL. Sorry about the capitals, had a shouty moment.

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  39. donna

    Well done Mia, you’re a voice of reason

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  40. Genevieve

    Next time anyone tells me they don’t believe in same sex marriage, I’m going to lead them straight to this article! Well done Mia!

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  41. elli

    YES.

    What else is there to say?

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    • Trog

      Well, elli, I for one, reckon that Rick’s jacket is well worth a mention. Like, where does he stow the batteries for it?

      Sorry, Mr Morton. Couldn’t resist. I know that it’s a vivid statement of pride.

      Gay people getting married? Go your hardest, and once you’re in wedded bliss, please still find more interesting things to talk about than real estate.

      Just that one thing, I’m begging you.

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      • theoracle

        My opinion? I think any ‘God’ would bless anyone who sincerely loved enough to want to get marry these days.

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        • theoracle

          typo…. I meant ‘married’ in my previous post.

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