UPDATE: A quick search through Apple’s app store can no longer find the Exodus International ‘gay cure app’. No official word on whether it has been removed, but a petition asking for it’s removal based on the grounds that it offended a group of people did reach more than 100,000 signatures.
Some people think you can switch from liking boys to girls or vice versa at the flick of a switch. Some people think that they can ‘fix’ homosexuals and make them straight again. Not from any ‘bad’ intentions but because they genuinely believe they can.
And now a niche religious organisation has released an iPhone app that helps gay people become straight, so they can be at one with God again.
It’s conversion by repetition. Those who sign up, those who become involved must be willing to repeatedly deny who they think they are in order that they become the person they think they should be.
MM news editor Rick Morton shares his opinion on the latest in ‘conversion therapy’.
If you listen to a small minority, you can change your sexuality just like you change your distaste for asparagus or fear of heights. Just like that. It’s not just religious groups that think so, but they are included in the count of organisations that have tried.
The essence is that one must concentrate a lot, think a lot about being of an opposite ‘persuasion’ and then stop touching themselves inappropriately to images or thoughts of ‘homosexual practices’.
Easy as, right? Wrong. Not only is the idea of conversion therapy just a little off, it’s downright dangerous because it finds vulnerable people who already dislike themselves, tell them they’re broken and try and fix them. I don’t believe it could or would work.
One such organisation that practices this therapy is Exodus International. They’ve been running courses for years and a website as well. And now, thanks to the wonders of mobile computing, Exodus International are bringing their expertise to an iPhone app to make not being gay easier to do while on the move.
Mobility guilt, yours for free.
The app is mostly a direct port of information available on the website but, importantly, it’s available while you’re out and about in case you are overcome with sexual urges and need to keep your hands busy fiddling with an iPhone instead of, you know, the same sex.
It reminds you that being homosexual is a condition that can be changed with hard work and dedication; like a flat tyre on the gayest car on Earth. Heterosexuality is a destination for gay people. Heterosexuality is moderation, or even sobriety. Homosexuality is alcoholism. Hedonism. Importantly, with God’s love, it can be cured. So the app says.
“While many consider ‘success’ to be a total elimination of same-sex attraction, others would say that “success” is living in congruence with their beliefs. Exodus does not have a compiled body of data that notes a “success rate” over its thirty-year history, but anecdotal evidence is similar to what other groups dealing with life-dominating issues such as Alcoholics Anonymous seem to show. About one third of the individuals who come to an Exodus member ministry turn from homosexual behavior towards heterosexuality whether that includes marriage or celibacy in singleness. Another third of the individuals who contact us do return to homosexual behavior and still another third waffle between the two. Regardless of the life choices made after contact with an Exodus ministry, many say they are better off for having had contact with an Exodus ministry and have benefited from their interactions with Exodus staff.”
Though it isn’t exactly a science (we’ll get to the studies in a minute), this controversial pursuit of ‘normality’ has a name. Reorientation therapy. It’s also called conversion therapy, a play on the common misconception that gays can be ‘turned’. My first and essentially last girlfriend still laughs about the fact she ‘turned’ me. She didn’t.
It should be pointed out that the wish to be ‘normal’ is not a religious thing. And, because numerous ex-gay programs set out with good intentions, it’s generally not borne out of any sense that homosexuality is evil. Quite the opposite, in fact. Most people of a strong religious persuasion view it as a sin that can be corrected with love and guidance, though this rather misses the point made by gays throughout the ages that they are born that way. Bank robbery is a sin that can be corrected with love and guidance, more often than not, but not homosexuality. In the same way that love and guidance, while admirable, won’t get rid of any of your birthmarks.
I often have this conversation with friends of mine who believe my being gay is a result of environmental factors in my upbringing and that they can be reversed, like the polarity of a magnetic field. I’m gay in the same way that they are straight; vividly and uncontrollably. In the same way that a bus is a bus and a train is a train and that no amount of study or straining will make it any different. Unless you’re a really good welder.
Even if you wanted change to be the case, which I did, for a long time, change is never as easy as reupholstering your life.
Meet Benjamin Gresham, a Sydney lad who thought he had to – and could – choose between his strong faith and his
homosexuality. He voluntarily entered an ex-gay program to convert him to heterosexuality and nearly ended his life because of it. He wrote last year in SX News:
“Even though I grew up in a Christian home, it wasn’t until I was about 15 that I started going along to church, reading my Bible and taking my faith seriously,” he says.
“At 15, my faith became more to me than just stories or historic figures. God became a real part of my life and my church was like my home. It was everything to me!”
Conflicted by bullying at school – a Year 10 student told him he wasn’t going to heaven because ‘God doesn’t send faggots to heaven’ – Ben gathered the courage to tell his church leader he was gay. At the age of 16.
“I managed to get out the words ‘I am gay’. The look of disappointment on his face was too much for me to take and so I burst into tears, only to be interrupted by him saying ‘you can change, many others have become straight, you just have to believe’.”
And so Ben entered ex-gay programs for three years, an intensive cycle of 60 day prayer blocks, Bible study, church attendance and lessons on ‘why homosexuality is wrong’.
For three years Benny voluntarily completed a course that told him he was broken and, worse, that he could be fixed without any solid evidence that he could.
“As a gay man, I simply believed that God would not love me unless I was straight.”
The problem was, of course, that Benny couldn’t change and he eventually realised it himself.
“As I battled between my faith and sexuality, I started to hate myself and felt like I had failed God. It was at this time I was diagnosed with depression. My depression escalated and led to self-harm. I attempted to commit suicide twice.”
Ben is the human face that should throw caution on to research conducted into ‘conversion therapy’, notably a study conducted by Stanton L. Jones and Mark A. Yarhouse and released in 2007 which is considered groundbreaking and the most wide-reaching of such studies.
It studied 98 participants in Exodus’ ex-gay programs from around the world and found that a significant number were able to change their orientation from homosexual to heterosexual without any adverse effects. Which is all well and good except the authors confirmed there was no ‘one cause’ of homosexuality they could pinpoint. There is the added dubious principle that just because people say they have changed, that they actually have.
Science has yet to come up with a sure fire way of knowing if an individual is gay other than by asking them, which is notoriously unreliable, especially when that individual wants so desperately to be straight.
And we shouldn’t be relying on dubious science when there is so much at stake. When there are programs that rely on bad science to warp and change the very essence of people. To make them hate themselves or think that they need to change; especially when they’re doing nobody any harm. You know what they say about good intentions.
And that’s really a lesson beyond the gay community as well. Leopards don’t change their spots; and nor should we demand they become tigers. There is nothing to be gained from changing anybody who is a harmless person.
Indeed, you’d cause a lot of harm if you tried.
For those interested, a petition to Apple asking them to remove the ‘gay cure’ app has so far reached 59,000 signatures.
*Ben Gresham is now a youth co-ordinator for Freedom 2 b[e], a group for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people from Christian backgrounds. He’s in a loving relationship with his boyfriend Sam and finishing a degree at university.
What do you think? Is providing this service helping or hindering gay people? Have you had any experience with programs like this?









Comments
219 Comments so far
I just read on the age online that they are removing it!
In the words of Charlie Sheen – Winning!!
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there are nearly 150000 signatures on the petition now!
Here’s the direct link
http://www.change.org/petitions/demand-that-apple-remove-ex-gay-iphone-app
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I find stories like this so sad. I can only imagine what it would feel like to go against the “norm” or what’s expected of you by your family and many people in your society, but not having any choice about it.
My gay friends’ coming out stories vary from angst-ridden to nonchalance to non-existent (because he hasn’t come out to his family yet).
When people (who obviously don’t understand or have any empathy) criticise homosexuality I always attempt to remind them that just as they just naturally liked the opposite sex when they were growing up, people who are gay just naturally liked the same sex. It’s as simple as that, really.
When people are forced by their families, by their religion, by their culture, or by society into being something they are not, nothing good can come of it. How could it?!
Love who you want to love. It’s your life!
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I truly, for the life of me, can’t understand what is wrong with being gay. I don’t even know where to begin with some of the assertions made by churches with this issue.
I’ve signed the petition, strongly support gay marriage and love God, but deplore religion because of crap like this.
All I can say is please, if there is someone out there who is struggling with their sexuality who is reading this article, there are a whole community of us who support your right to sleep with whomever you wish and believe that God still loves you. Don’t self-harm or try to leave this lovely planet, because there are so many people who support changing this ridiculous attitude in society. Hang in there.
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I noticed there was some confusion in the comments below about what the Bible actually says about homosexuality. Just to set the record straight I have quoted verbatim from the Bible below.
Remember there are many people who wholeheartedly believe and try to adhere to the writings of the Bible. There are also people who believe it but behave the opposite of what they believe. Some people just follow the bits they like (love your neighbour etc), and of course many who don’t care two cents what the Bible says! I just thought this might be informative to know why (some) Christian people think the way they do.
From Romans 1:26 – “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. (27)In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
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I know the point you’re making, but the bible also talks about sacrificing children to God.
From Exodus 22:29-30: “Do not hold back offerings from your granaries or your vats. You must give me the firstborn of your sons. (30) Do the same with your cattle and your sheep. Let them stay with their mothers for seven days, but give them to me on the eighth day.”
As we so obviously don’t do that anymore, I think it’s also time to lay the issue of homosexuality being a sin to rest.
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Just to put it out there, there are also many of us who don’y follow the bible literally in all instances, for example “If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell” – I know my brain has caused me to sin many times but I don’t intend on chopping it out any time soon.
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Just signed the petition – some people are just bat shit crazy.
Pray the gay away WTF! Doesn’t god love everyone?
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It seems the biggest “against” argument is around giving the gays a choice to explore becoming heterosexual. This would be a fine argument if these groups also believed and taught that either way, gay or straight you are who you are and your sexuality doesn’t impact the type of person you are in anyones eyes including God for those of Christian faith. Rather than giving this comfort they tend to steer those participating in the direction of changing as being their only “choice”.
Also the “success stories” that have been mentioned in Ricks article are outweighed by just one person being pushed into, or furthering their depression and these groups potentially being a breaking point causing suicide of a LTGB and common sense tells me this has happened more than once. I believe in options and I know a few people who once labelled themselves as gay that are now in heterosexual relationships but this didn’t take the work of a miracle cure this was simply them growing into their sexuality.
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Thanks Rick another great article.
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Who’s business is it if some one is gay or lesbian or other. Notice how we don’t harp on about heterosexuals. Just let people live and love and be who they are. I am so sick of this argument. I am also sick of bullies, racists, sexist idiots etc etc. All the some really. Why is it so hard to be kind and to respect each other. WTF!!! ( a Josh quote from Q & A last night) Where will it all end?
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WOW!!! Where to begin with all these ignorant comments!
I read a lot of “I reckon being gay is like skin colour (ie, utterly unchangeable), and so therefore it is.” This is simple assertion. There is middle ground between genetically determined and being as changeable as a jumper. For eg, influences in early childhood can have VERY powerful, sometimes permenant effects on a person’s character.
The author admits in the article that there is research that indicated that “a significant number” were able to change. Yet this study is dismissed with conjecture (eg, they SAY they changed, but can we really believe them?) but not hard evidence.
That being said, I feel for SSA men and women who are struggling with these issues. (Altho I think that coming out is preferable to living in the closet–whether you intend to live a gay lifestyle OR be an openly gay-but-chaste man.) I think of my gay brother who tried to “pray the gay away” in private agony, but of course couldn’t. I can’t imagine what turmoil he must have suffered.
Nevertheless, with the right help it might have been a different story. If some gays seek out such therapies of their own free will then who are we to condemn them, or even physically attack them? I say physically attack because of an incident when when a hardline gay activist group beat up members of Courage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage_International).
Of course, some people will never be able to be made heterosexual, and it is incumbant on groups such as Exodus Ministries to, in individual cases, make the call that they’re doing more harm than good in trying to reorient a specific person’s sexuality, rather than trying to support them in other ways.
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I’ll ignore the first sentence and quickly sum up a response.
First para: You reject what you define as assertion with an assertion.
Second para: You supply no hard evidence yourself, Jeff.
Third para: Feel free to expand on your brother’s experience. I don’t understand what ‘pray the gay way’ is. Can you explain? Also, it isn’t clear on what the resolution was in his case, or how it supports your argument.
Fourth papa: The answer is no. Your question would be more valid IF anyone was suggesting condemning or attacking gays who desire to be straight. Everyone here is suggesting help as a better option. And wow, one incident of gay on gay violence. Fortuantely, tempers are less volatile here.
Last para: You’ve expressed opinion. No problem. I think I’d prefer Exodus Ministries just keep the hell out of gay teenager’s minds completely.
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Hi Idle Dad,
I was responding to the false dichotomy that if one doesn’t accept that same sex attraction is 100% genetically predetermined (eg, like skin colour) then one MUST subscribe to the opposite extreme that it’s just a choice. I believe that it is a deep seated tendency, but not necessarily set in stone.
Regarding my brother, he came out in his early 20s but had been secretly trying to supress it since puberty. He prayed fervently to God to make him straight but by the time he came out he had fully resolved to live the homosexual lifestyle. I made this point to emphasise that I have some personal knowledge of the subject and also to show that I don’t hate gay people.
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I quoted that study for precisely the scientific reasons you seem to want me to include. How do you subjectively test ‘conversion’ from gay to straight? Could somebody turn you from straight to gay Jeff?
I think any study that focuses on vulnerable people who hate themselves and their conversion will probably find that they will at least say they have converted because deep down that is what they want.
But it doesn’t work. You can’t change who you are, deep down. I could say I am straight right now and that I like women but it wouldn’t be true. And if I pretended I was for years to come it would seriously mess with my head.
That study isn’t science. It’s just asking people how they feel.
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jeff, I find your comment very confusing. On the one hand you say your gay brother “of course couldn’t” “pray the gay away”. Then you go on to talk about “the right help”. What would the right help look like? This post is about an app. An APP. For your mobile phone. Setting aside the entirely dubious premise of turning gays straight, how on earth can appropriate psychological assistance for working through deep inner turmoil be delivered through *a mobile phone application*? How can any “Ministry” make any “call” on an individual case through *a mobile phone application*?
Nobody here has condemned, much less attacked, gays who wish to seek out therapy. What I do condemn is cynical, agenda-pushing, money-making exercises that take advantage of vulnerable young people who are suffering because of society’s prejudices.
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I was listening to a conversation between two early-20-somethings at Uni the other day, and they were discussing what they felt when they found out/saw that a new acquaintance or a friend of a friend was gay. They were both fashionable, materially advantaged looking, intelligent people. The male said that his reaction would be, ugh, gay, and that afterwards he would be polite but wouldn’t want to be friends. The girl said, yeah, she would react like that, first, too, but then she would be “fine with it” and accept them as a friend. She went on to say she hardly ever met a gay girl, so it had never been an issue.
I found it so sad, that two intelligent people in their early 20s are still struggling with this kind of homophobia, and limiting their personal horizons and chances of truly knowing and appreciating at least 10% of the people they meet.
Is there an app for that?
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Why is it not enough for people to just live their lives the best they can and be satisfied? Why do they feel the need to turn around and try to tell others how to live?
We’re all trying to be the best we can be, some days we do a better job than others. I know I’ve had my moments, so I would never be so arrogant to turn around and tell someone how to be a better person. Do people believe that they are perfect and have the answers? Perhaps instead of judging others over things that can’t be controlled, everyone should use the energy to focus on themselves.
We are who we are, we were born that way. We shouldn’t be made to feel like we aren’t a whole person because we aren’t living up to the standard someone else has set for us.
Some of my best friends and closest family members are gay. They are some of the most wonderful, kind, loving people I know. Don’t try to tell me they are broken – I wouldn’t have them any other way.
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Well said!
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I think this is one of the many reasons why people are turning away from church.
This is kinda off topic but this is personally one of the reasons why I don’t go to church anymore and am somewhat unsure about my Christianity…
I go to church at Christmas, Easter, Weddings etc (yes yes, I know Im a bad christian). I went to a Catholic primary school and my mum used to make me go to church with her every Sunday for a few years- she eventually gave up on this because our Priest was so freaking grumpy.
On Christmas Eve this year he spent 5 minutes making everyone feel bad about attending church on Christmas Eve but not in the week following. He then spent the next 20 minutes telling us that Oprah (and ‘our obsession’ with her and her spreading of materialism) is whats wrong with the world- way to spread the cheer at Christmas!
I’m 21 and beyond cynical about any preaching that comes from Church’s- I’m sure that in many communities they do a lot of amazing and inspiring work- but preaching about how individuals should live their everyday lives (besides the whole ‘be kind to others’ thing etc) just ends in disaster IMO
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ALSO: I’m REALLY hoping that Julia is getting bad advice from her advisers about how to reach out to older/more conservative Australian’s.
I really hope, and believe, that after Labor’s national conference they decide that as a political party that they support marriage equality!!
Am I the only one that laughed out loud at Josh Thomas’s question on Q&A tonight?
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No I laughed out loud as well. Good on him.
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The one night I missed Q&A and something exciting happened. What did Josh say?
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Don’t worry- it wasn’t as exciting as Julian Assange surprising Julia Gillard last week
basically he asked a question pointing out how hypocritical it was that Gillard believes in the ‘traditional’ value of marriage which was set out by the church, but she is living in sin with her boyfriend…
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Just so u all know – not all Christians are crazy. We don’t all believe gay people can or should be made ‘straight’. If there truly is judgement, it’s not my place but God’s. It’s my job to love all ppl the way the are. God is gracious and kind and perfect. G&L’s have nothing to hide or fear. xo – straight Christian woman. (Rick, geez I love reading what u write. don’t eva stop.)
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I know many hardcore Christians and not one of them is homophobic in the slightest. Its the loud idiots that cause most of the trouble.
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Bang on Tracy (and thank you, you’re too kind!)
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I totally agree, one of my best friends is actually a misionary and does an awful lot of work with youth, and she has no problems with my being a lesbian and in fact thinks my girlfriend (who identifies as a not very good mormon funnily) is amazing. She quite regularly gets these kids in her program from deeply conservative american families and its thrilling to sit in and watch as she challenges them to find out for themselves what they God wants from them and not what they’ve been told.
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So soon someone will come up with an Ap that will change someone from Black to White, or from a Woman to a Man so that they can be ‘normal’ too. Give me a break.
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There is a difference between free speech and hate speech.
The reason so many gay people are unhappy and wish they were straight is because of how closed minded and hateful society can be.
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Hear hear.
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I couldn’t agree with you more, Eliska! The only reason gay people feel the need to “freely” seek out conversion, is because society has made them feel they need to. Everyone wants feel loved and accepted. It’s sad that the church preaches God’s love is for everyone, but for gay people….well, then it’s conditional.
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Still cant believe this sought of crap is still going on. I dont need research or any studies. I know its not a choice. I know. Its almost comical that these people still believe a person would choose homosexuality. They dont have a clue.
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Maybe they should have consulted the gays?
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In my day I knew many young guys who tried heterosexuality “out” despite being truly gay. I think it was confusing for everyone involved and only happened because they felt they should be “normal”.
Much better to support people to be true to who they are, rather than to conform for conformity’s sake.
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Are they kidding???? Couldn’t they do something constructive like feeding the homeless??? I wonder what the world is coming too???????
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Just a quick note – these guys are in NO way affiliated with the astoundingly awesome Exodus Foundation here in Australia, run by Rev. Bill Crews.
Back to being gobsmacked, and linking the petition on my FB.
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The responses to this post remind me of this video, which I think is good food for thought:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY
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OK, so take a deep breath before you start typing your responses. What do you think of the freedom of expression angle? Isn’t there an argument that, although you may believe (as I do)that this app is damaging especially for young G and L people, the Exodus International group do have the right to express their thoughts and practices on the subject as long as they aren’t breaking the law. I have signed the petition but censorship, via any medium, makes me nervous.
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Quite a few responses below to the freedom of expression argument
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Ta
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I guess you could argue that Apple is a store. As with any store, Apple needs to not just sell things people want, but needs to maintain an image as a corporation that people are happy to purchase from.
Shop fronts are allowed to choose what they sell. It isn’t censorship, as they can choose to sell an android app or host a website or whatever.
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OK, had a look through the store guidelines: Some bits here…
Apple on App Store guidelines:
“We view Apps different than books or songs, which we do not curate. If you want to criticize a religion, write a book. If you want to describe sex, write a book or a song, or create a medical app. It can get complicated, but we have decided to not allow certain kinds of content in the App Store.”
Section 14.1
“Any app that is defamatory, offensive, mean-spirited, or likely to place the targeted individual or group in harm’s way will be rejected.”
Section 19.1
“Apps containing references or commentary about a religious, cultural or ethnic group that are defamatory, offensive, mean-spirited or likely to expose the targeted group to harm or violence will be rejected.”
Section 19.2
“Apps may contain or quote religious text provided the quotes or translations are accurate and not misleading. Commentary should be educational or informative rather than inflammatory.”
All very subjective, but it seems to me that Apple is making a case that if you want to attack a group, you can’t make a specific app to do that.
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I do not believe people should be petitioning Apple to remove their “‘gay cure” app. If some gay people want to try what is on offer why shouldn’t they?
There are fat people trying to make themselves size 8s when they never will be, there are not so good looking people trying to turn themselves into models via cosmetic surgery, etc etc yet we let these people try to change who or what they are.
It’s freedom of choice. If you want to try to change your sexual orientation why not? If you want to stay the way you are do so.
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Oh dear. I cannot understand how you don’t see this app as offensive and homophobic. Your comparisons are very unrelated in topic.
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Louise I have met some gay people who are unhappy about their orientation and have said they would consider trying therapy to change their orientation. Now do they not have the right not explore whether or not they can change if they wish to do so?
I do not know whether people can change their sexual orientation, would have to see what research is available on this topic. I doubt it would work, but hey I am open to reading the scientific literature and believe gay people who wish to try to change their orientation should be able to do so and I believe gay people who want to stay as they are should do so. Noone is forcing anyone to use this app.
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Am I wrong in thinking that you feel that an app or therapy could change your sexuality? I can understand that some people are unhappy with their sexual orientation but what I’m trying to say that it is other people that often make them feel this way by promoting their belief that homosexuality is wrong and this app is supporting the idea that homosexuality should be changed, which in my opinion is utterly wrong.
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Louise, some people are unhappy they are overweight and/or ugly yet we allow them them the choice to access treatment options such as diet, exercise, liposuction, cosmetic surgery. Would you argue we we make people feel fat and ugly when we allow cosmetic surgeons, beauticians to provide services? Life is in many ways easier for the thin and beautiful. research shows that thin and attractive people are more likely to get jobs. Lets face it on the dating scene , overll, thin and attractive people get more dates that overweight and ugly people.
Now, in society, it is easier to be heterosexual than homosexual., so why can’t gay and lesbian people who wish to try to change their orientation have access to treatment if they wish to avail themselves ofit.
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Well, there you go. You’ve said it…in essence they are asking gay people to conform to the masses and be heterosexual just like ugly or fat people feel they need to be beautiful and skinny to fit in with the rest of society.
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Because they can’t. I know. I’ve been there.
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How can you compare plastic surgery to sexual orientation??? Your appearance is something physical that you can tweak to some degree.. your sexuality is part of who you are. Not what you look like. Sheesh.
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Do you really think it is right for gay people to feel like they need to be fixed? This is what apps like this and ‘cures’ can make people feel like. It is wrong and I think rather than allowing these apps and ‘cures’ to continue, we should work on society being an easier place to be for gay people.
You can only cure something if you define this as an illness, and the American Psychological Association says that ‘homosexuality is natural and most especially, that it can’t be changed.’
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Hi Catherine- would you ever consider a treatment to make you a lesbian? I really doubt it because I’m sure you know it wouldn’t work. And yes it is easier to be a heterosexual, because people continue to bring hurtful and offensive apps and messages like this which at the end of the day send the message that homosexuality isn’t normal. How hurtful your comments are. And Louise- how amazing are you, 15 and more sense and wisdom than people twice your age!
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A, that’s why we love Louise!
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It’s incredibly difficult to separate out cause and effect, but are they themselves not happy with their orientation, or is it that they’ve been told over and over again by different sources that being gay is equivalent to being “broken” (and that may not even be consciously received) which has caused them to be unhappy with their orientation?
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Mel you have a point, but let’s face it gay and lesbian people are discriminated against e.g. in the workplace, some are ostracised by their families, some are bashed etc.
It is easier for someone to try to change their sexual orientation than change society, so if they want to give it a go, why not?
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Of course!! *slaps forehead* Why didn’t I think of that?! And while we’re at it, lets make everyone white, male, middle-aged, middle-incomed and Christian. Phew. The problems of the world are hereby solved, without anyone having to take responsibility for their own reprehensible, violent actions. How easy was that?
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I have no problems with people trying to change their sexual orientation, it’s just figuring out whether programs such as the app are helping or hindering the situation. It might even be doing both, by legitimatising society’s behaviour towards gay and lesbian people, or helping an individual deal with his situation by helping them find something positive (I don’t support the app, but I think perhaps that some people might have this experience).
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Catherine, many black people are discriminated against. Should they try bleaching creams because it’s all too much trouble to try to stop the discrimination?
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Are you serious?
It’s easier for someone to change their sexual orientation than to change society’s attitude towards their sexual orientation??? Firstly that is debatable. I would think that it would be extremely difficult if not impossible for someone to change something that is so fundamental. And to do so would be in most cases causing more harm than good.
Secondly to suggest that homosexual people just ‘give it a go’ because it might be ‘easier’ is repulsive. Why should they have to? It is WRONG that there is discrimination on the basis of any difference between people – gender, sexual orientation, race, religion.
I understand that people argue this app should be allowed because of freedom of speech, or because if there are people out there who would want to use it because it’s genuinely what they wish to do.
But the attitude of ‘it’s better to blend in and repress who you are rather than fight for what’s right’ is a never, ever, EVER the right choice. For anyone.
As long as they are not out murdering people, nobody should ever have to feel ashamed of themselves or feel forced be someone different to be accepted, just because of other peoples backwards attitudes.
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Last time I checked you couldn’t starve yourself gay and there was no operation to remove your ‘gayness’.
Apples and pears.
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Why be frightened of giving gay and lesbians who want to try to change their sexuality the opportunity to do so?
I doubt it would work but hey, let those who wish to try have the opportunity to try
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Who said anything about being frightened? It’s about respect. It’s about removing something that is offensive to a minority group in our country and crushing the outdated belief that being gay can be cured.
Where is your line in the sand?
A lot of Indigenous people struggle with their identity and find it difficult to walk through life with stereotypes hanging over their heads. Should we create an app. to help them overcome and hide their Aboriginality?
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Hi Catherine. I see what you are saying and I respect your right to feel the way you do. The comment that people should be free to do as they choose is a valid one – but personally I don’t think this issue is as simple as that.
Sexuality is an innate part of who someone is. And somehow I don’t think overweight people or those who society deem to be unattractive have faced the level of discrimination faced by homosexuals. Changing the way you look is totally different to changing who you are. This app promotes the idea that homosexuality is wrong and unacceptable, and that is potentially very damaging to the many many people out there who already are struggling to come to grips with their sexuality. Instead of apps encouraging gay people to ‘convert’ we should be trying to help those who are unhappy with their sexuality to become comfortable with it.
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Hi Catherine, Tell me, if there was an app that claimed it could change someone’s hair colour from red to blonde, do you feel that redheads should try it? Even though it won’t work? Even though there’s no need for it – because red hair is as beautiful and natural as any other colour? Or would you do the right thing, ring A Current Affair and call ‘scam’.
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So then Catherine, in the interests of equality, I assume you will petition Apple to produce an app to make straight people gay?
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Yeah, I felt really left out at a dykes on bikes function, being the token straight. Can I change that with an app please?? Fucking hell.
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Hmm, between my ferry ride and home everyone has kind of covered in response to you Catherine. I will say this, firstly, thanks for commenting. Differences of opinion are what makes this place pretty awesome, to my mind.
Having said that I’m going to do the bit where I politely disagree
I’ll break down my reasons why. The problem is not choice here. I’m all for it. If I could have chosen a ‘normal’ life for myself a few years ago I would have chosen to be straight in a heartbeat. But I was vulnerable.
These programs pray on two things. The vulnerability of the person and the mindset of a society that views them as broken. The crux of it is this: they are not broken and they do not need to be fixed. If they want to try and be fixed, let them have encounters with the other sex and decide for themselves. But any program that says it can fix them is lying and it’s tantamount to abuse if they try.
These programs work with fragile minds, teach them to hate themselves and lead to horrible consequences.
The solution is simple, let us love ourselves for who we are. And teach society to do likewise
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Fantastic response, I totally agree! Thanks!
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And may I say how impressive your responses have been too Louise, nicely put for all of them.
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Rick, I think I love you. In a completely platonic kind of way of course.
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Even if I wrote ‘pray’ instead of ‘prey’?
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And here I thought you were being extra subtly clever.
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Dealbreaker for me though, I’m afraid.
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Brilliant post Rick:)) I think I love you lol x
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Rick you say that “” they are not broken and they do not need to be fixed”, but that is your opinion and I am glad for you that you feel that way about yourself.
However, some gay and lesbian people may feel thatthey are broken and do need to be fixed and would like the opportunity to try out any treatments that are on offer.
Those who are happy with their orientation, I am glad for you. but what is right for you may not be right for everyone else, so don’t block their access to what they may want.
A gay friend of mine is unhappy about his orientation and he said he would be interested in trying a treatment as long as there was no religious content in it.
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But why do they feel bad about their orientation?
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catherine, maybe your gay friend feels he needs to say that to you as he is aware of your strong anti-gay stance.
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Actually rainbow for your information I am not anti gay
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I’m sorry but you can’t say that you don’t have a problem with homosexuality and also say that
“some gay and lesbian people may feel thatthey are broken and do need to be fixed and would like the opportunity to try out any treatments that are on offer”
Surely if you can no problem with homosexuality you realise that it is not these people sexual orientation that needs to be ‘fixed’ but its society’s views and these individuals view of themselves that needs to be ‘fixed’
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What your friend needs is a psychologist to help come to terms with his orientation, not some treatment.
Treatments will not work, not ever, because every reputable psychological and medical association agrees that it is impossible to change sexual orientation. The only “treatments” on offer are from religious organisations, because they see homosexuality as sinful, and not even mainstream religions as they’re too sensible to get caught up in something as shonky as this.
What bothers me most about your argument is that it’s based on the belief that sexual orientation needs fixing in the first place. Which it does not.
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I have read all the comments in response to your post.
I think you are brave to come on here and discuss your view.:)
It is important that the gay people who want to change their sexuality have the freedom to seek the “help” they need or want.
However, what people are concerned about is the “why” they want to change. This is a very important question to answer.
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Homosexuality is not a sin or a disease. God loves us no matter who we have sex with. One of the two great commandments is ‘you shall love your neighbour as yourself’. This means that God wants us to LOVE OURSELVES!
God bless all who love, no matter who it is.
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This is so stupid. Homosexuality isn’t something that should or can be changed. One of my Christian (Pentecostal to be exact) friends, believes that his counselor grandma has ‘cured’ people from being gay. I recently watched a really great show called, ‘Oranges aren’t the only fruit,’ about this Christian girl who came out and what it was like for her – you might have read the book. Not very long ago I wrote about one of my best friends, Lee* who came out as gay last year and what school was like for her, if you’re interested you can read it here: http://silencingthemirror.blogspot.com/2011/02/day-in-life-for-gay-teen.html. Anyone can comment and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Great post, Rick! Love your work! Petition has been signed.
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Try reading the book – excellent. It’s by Jeanette Winterson an extraordinary English writer and is, more or less, based on her own experience.
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Jeanette Winterson is my favourite author – her writing is AMAZING.
Do try to get hold of the book. It is an autobiographical fiction and it is incredible.
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If you liked it, try Jeanette Winterson’s other books including Written On The Body.
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This totally breaks my heart.
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it is just so SAD. why why why do straight people not agree with gay peoples choices?
Julia Gillard’s stance today is also weird and disturbing to me. This kind of prejudice is just inconceivable to me.
makes all the words of objection I have to them and their organisations and courses fly about in my head so fast I almost lose the ability to write a coherent sentence.
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Be reassured gay and lesbian people everywhere if the app doesn’t work in swithcing you staight I’ve heard there are these great conversion bracelets available online! And they come with a free set of steak knives.Apparently they also make you better at being an elite athlete.Who knew?
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I have many gay friends. I think it is cruel what people can do to them. God is not like that. People are!
Anyway, every single one believe they cannot help it.
Just a side note though- I met this gay man through work and he told me that 50% cannot help it, but 50% simply choose it?
I did not know what to say to that! He was gay after all lol…
Anyway. Who cares. Choice or no choice. Its about the freedom to be who we are regardless if we choose it or not!
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For those interested in learning about the evolutionary origin of homosexuality (or at least one theory) and the importance of homosexuality for the survival of humanity I recommend having a look at the following link.
http://www.slate.com/id/2194232/
“A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man’s mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man’s male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father. Can genes account for these patterns?”
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It never ceases to amaze me how some people think they can tell another person what they can do with their private parts…
Homoesexuality is not a new thing. It has been around for centuries. MILLENNIA, even.
It both disgusts and fascinates me that so much of the human race hasn’t evolved on this issue.
What ever happened to God, anyway? S/he was all over the place a few millennia ago – what has s/he done since then?
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It is time for these groups to get over deciding who should be allowed to love who. How about concentrating on just being a decent and compassionate individual as the ideal, regardless of sexuality, gender, religion, or race, rather than being a judgmental twatt. Is there an “anti twatt” app available?
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Brilliant article Rick. It is so refreshing to read your articles on MM these days. I look forward to clicking into them and reading your views. How lucky that they snapped you up!
I too am disillusioned why this type of conversion therapy exists. Is it really anybody’s business whether a boy is gay/bisexual/transgendered or if a girl is the same? No. Growing up this way IS confusing and groups like this do not help… all they do is make the person who is confused about their sexuality feel even more isolated. Or worse think that there’s something wrong with them.
I came out when I was 16 to my family and friends as bisexual. I have had long term relationships (mainly with women) but I am sexually attracted to men as well. I have never pretended to be otherwise. But, of course it can be isolating at times and damn confusing. I remember explaining to a family member once who asked me why I couldn’t just be straight that “don’t you think I would be straight if I was?’ Heck, it would be a lot easier if this was the case. But it’s not.
I still struggle with who I should tell about my sexuality (especially work colleagues who I become closer friends with) it’s not always easy because (I believe) there is a real lack of bisexual role models out there. It’s either seen as a bit kinky, not really taken seriously. The common view is ‘you’re not really bisexual, you’re either greedy or just promiscious’. Sad but true.
Petition signed. Thanks for the link and thanks MM for always promoting a healthy attitude towards sexuality.
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you are sadly, right. it does seem to be the case that bisexuals are not taken seriously…it seems to be looked upon more as ‘indecision’
let’s hope for a good role model soon!
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Thanks Rose. It’s funny how these things work. Gay issues are slowly being taken more seriously, bisexual issues slower still, transgender issues even slower than that. Sexuality is sexuality, and far be it for us to judge what makes people tick and how they identify.
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Bisexual issues are so far behind G&L ones that, in NSW, it’s LEGAL to discriminate against someone on the basis of bisexuality (or transgender, or heterosexuality for that matter.) The law says only “on the basis of actual or presumed homosexuality.” But finding a gay rights group that gives a rat’s posterior about it is difficult.
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You’re right. One of my good friends came out as bisexual last year and she wasn’t taken seriously for a while by her mum and younger students have spread rumours saying that she is promiscuous. It is so unfair
.
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I totally agree re bisexuality. I often feel like neither one thing nor the other: I’m not straight, as my exgirlfriend will confirm LOL, but nor am I lesbian and the fact my partner is male adds to that. If I go to Fair Day (one of the Sydney Mardi Gras events), I feel like I don’t fully belong there and as though I’m passing as gay. (I’m the other side of the halfway point from you – I mostly have relationships with men but also find women attractive.)
I came out to myself as bi at age 35 and to my mother a couple of months ago age 42, and I admit I was surprised at how easy it was. I’m still closeted at work.
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I have a son (who is still a bub) and I have always said I will raise him to view heterosexual and homosexual relationships as being two perfectly acceptable options, of which he can take his pick. There are many people on here who are passionate about gay people being accepted for who they are and I can’t help but feel this all starts with the information we receive during childhood about what is ‘normal’ – perhaps we need to shift our focus on to raising the next generation in an environment that promotes building an acceptance of all types of people – gay/straight/black/white/whatever….how often are children read books at school about gay parents? I suspect it would be a rare occurrence.
I think it is easy to assume your daughter will grow up to marry a man or son will find a wife…perhaps we shouldn’t place these assumptions on children so that they don’t grow up feeling like being gay is being ‘different’…so that there essentially is no ‘coming out of the closet’..I like to imagine a world where sexual preference doesn’t define people, rather, it’s just another aspect of who you are.
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I love your last sentence! Even better lets get rid of the labels altogether. I think in the future people will be more “fluid” with their sexuality.
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Your son is very lucky to have a mum like you.
xx
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You are so right… I don’t think there are many ‘media messages’ of homosexuality (especially in media that’s kid friendly) which means that even today my 3y/o is saturated in images of the ‘boy meets girl’ or ‘princess marries her prince’ type…
We are very lucky to have some wonderful gay and lesbian friends, including a lesbian couple who have kids, so my daughter can see for herself that a family can have 2 mums. She’s also very observant so will point out when she sees ’2 daddies’ for example. I think it’s important for kids to be exposed to this to start to break down the stereotypes and the ‘marginalisation’ of that situation.
Another good step in the right direction would be the legalisation of gay/lesbian marriage…
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There’s a 8 or 9 out of 10 probability that he will end up with someone of the opposite sex, but I love that you give equal merit to both option.
But to nitpick for a moment, sexuality is a spectrum not an either/or thing. Maybe refer to future partners in a gender-neutral sense rather than ‘boy or girl’? It took me until my 30s to realise I’m bi because, silly as this sounds, I subconsciously thought “I like boys therefore I’m not lesbian therefore I’m straight.”
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good point Elli, thank you!
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It’s a shame we still have to have this discussion in 2011. Homosexuality is not a choice, it’s just as innate as for someone who is straight.
There are far more important qualities that define a person than their sexuality, like generosity etc.
Gay people should just be accepted as they are, and it shouldn’t matter how one becomes gay, but I am curious if homosexual people are for or against research to discover the exact biological source that dictates sexuality?
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This is so stupid. Being gay isn’t something that can or should be cured. One of my Christian friends (Pentecostal to be exact), believes that his grandma ‘cured’ people from homosexuality and it really annoys me that this was even attempted. I recently watched ‘Oranges aren’t the only fruit,’ which is this fantastic show about a Christian girl who comes out as Lesbian and what happens to her. You may have read the book (which is semi autobiographical).
Not to long ago I wrote about what it was like at school for one of my bestfriends, Lee* when she came out last year – if you’d like to read it, the address is: http://silencingthemirror.blogspot.com/2011/02/day-in-life-for-gay-teen.html. Anyone can comment and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Fantastic article, Rick! Thanks for letting me know, petition signed.
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Oh and Rick- another great article. Always love your work and am enjoying seeing more of it.
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Oh, blushy mcblush face. That’s me right now.
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Give it another week and we’ll be demanding 3 articles a day from you !
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I’ve been a Christian for nearly ten years (I wasn’t raised in a church-going household, but ‘found God’ through a good friend during my last couple of years of highschool), and I still struggle every single day with this ‘issue’.
One of my best friends is a gay man, he WAS raised as a Christian, and bravely came out to our youth pastor. She told him pretty much to choose between being gay, or Jesus, and I’ll never forget the way he convulsed while sobbing into me as I tried to hug him and somehow reassure him he would be ok, whatever happened.
Another very dear friend of mine is a lesbian, and she has said a couple of times it’s not God who scares her, but Christians do. As a Christian this makes me so sad, and I HATE that people seem to blanket people by thier beleifs… I get tarred with the same brush as people who are bat-shit crazy in thier beleifs and think Gay people can be ‘cured’, or that Japan had the earthquake because there are too many Atheists (anyone else seen that Youtube video of the girl claiming God answered her prayers? I literally nearly vomitted).
I’m a Christian, and I have always been taught that God loves people – every single person, whether they are straight, gay, black, white, rainbow… The God I know and have experienced would probably be saddened by people not ‘obeying’ Him, as the disobedience (sin) creates a barrier between yourself and a relationship with God, but He wouldn’t cast them away. The same way He hasn’t cast me away for having sex before marriage (gasp! That has raised some eyebrows over the years too! I’m lucky to have found a very modern church who strives to LOVE PEOPLE and not judge them).
I can’t remember which part of the Bible this is in, but we had a sermon on it recently at my church – Jesus said that of all the commandments, the most important one is to love God, and love others as yourself.
I wish more people (Christian or otherwise) would remember that.
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That girl needs a slap across the face and a HUGE wake up call. Scary how religion can cause such brainwashing. She sounds like she is dedicated almost to cult standards..
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I went to a Christian church service in Pasadena (Los Angeles) who welcomed gay, lesbian, transgender – everyone. They said to me that God loves all people however they say the Bible is clear on the issue about gays having sex – don’t do it. Celibacy is the only way be Christian and gay. (BTW: Their opinion, not mine….don’t shoot the messenger
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Hahahaha… Pasadena ?….. sounds more like South Park !
“You can be as gay as you like, just don’t have sex with anyone, mmkay …”
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Thank you so much for posting this. I my self almost suicided when I was 17 years old because I grew up with the media, politicians and religious figures citing that it was wrong, sick and disgusting.
It took me years to realise that I am gay just as people are straight. Thank you for helping others to understand this to.
Yours Sincerely
Ben Angel
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Nicely said Ben- I am horrified by the judgment and homophobia directed at same sex attracted individuals and the subsequent rates of depression, anxiety, social alienation and suicide ideation that follows.
Aps like these are so damaging because they effectively pathologize homosexuality as an illness in need of correction. *off to sign the petition*
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Media can be aweful for ones journey in coming out, and learning about ones self. I am pretty sure the person who wrote this original post is my friend, and she was writting about me. lol.. amongst other issues. The media can be quite favorable of gays if it is a gay organisation in which I work.. check it out. http://www.joy.org.au/listenlive. Gay radio from Melbourne, Australia. I host an Asian pop program for something a little different, on Wednesday nights. Tune in and say hello!
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People have a choice and bear the consequences. This is an individual issue and not a community issue.
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“This is an individual issue and not a community issue.”
What does that even mean?
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Just what are you trying to say?? Gay people tend to be who they just are IMO
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People don’t have a choice Rock. Did you choose to be heterosexual?
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I really hope you mean people have a choice to accept other people as they are…..
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I don’t think my response to this comment will be appropriate dinner party conversation.
%^#%#!&*$^
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I’d much rather be sitting next to you for dinner!
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You’d be surprised how often I say that at dinner parties….;)
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“Exodus does not have a compiled body of data that notes a “success rate” over its thirty-year history, but anecdotal evidence….”
Ahahahaaaaa…. There’s your first clue! Wow. No data? Well I guess not. Pretty difficult to produce data to support something with no basis to begin with.
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On the upside, at least Exodus didn’t manufacture data to support their absurdity. Their damage would be exponential worse – and they’re far too damaging already.
Why are these programs not covered under laws against false advertising?? If they can’t (legitimately) back up their claims, and there’s data to the contrary, why are they not illegal?
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If people enrol in the Exodus program(no matter what their motivations) why shouldn’t they have an app to help them? Seriously is this worse than some of the other applications you can get? Would we be up in arms about a weighloss app that called the particpants fat etc. What works for you whatever your problem (perceived or real).
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You can in fact lose weight. I want to be taller. Is there an app for that? No because it’s not possible, like it’s not possible to change your sexual orientation.
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I just don’t understand why this is an issue at all…
I don’t ever remember thinking that I would “choose” to be straight. Imagine someone telling you that you coudl not love your partner and theyuo were not worthwhile. I have a lot of gay friends and I do tell them that they are worthwhile but I also tell my straight friends this. We are all worthwhile – maybe they should look at building an App that is supportive loving and encouraging.
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None of the lovely chicks from the weekend could make you hetrosexual???
#blogconferencefail
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Nope, but boy did they try
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iPhone app or not, I will never like asparagus!
This whole thing makes me pretty sad, that people are made to feel so terrible.
Petition signed!
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When somebody tells me they’re gay, I believe them.
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My beautiful, beautiful sister told me she was gay on the weekend. I was not shocked as deep down I always knew. When we were little she always wanted to be Ken and I wanted to be barbie. Her being gay changes nothing between us. But what broke my heart was the amount of self-hatred she had towards herself and how she has spent so many years denying who she is to try and fit in with what society sees as ‘normal’.(She is 32 so that’s alot of years of hating herself) I was absolutely devestated to hear that she had thought of suicide. One week ago I would have read this article with sympathy but now it takes on a whole new meaning for me, it makes me angry and hurt. Is there anyone in the mamamia community who can reassure me that she will feel better about herself?
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Thanks Sister.
This is what really kills me inside. I came out when I was 21-22 and I only did it because not coming out was literally driving me mad. It was clouding my judgment. I was living this exceedingly, awfully complex lie and it was beginning to eat me from the inside out.
I see people who come out after getting married and having kids, say at the age of 40 or 50, and I wonder to myself – how on Earth did they do it for so long? I couldn’t stay another minute inside my closet and I hate to think what might have happened if I’d tried.
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I know Rick, I don’t know how she hid it for so long. I told her that if anything happened to her my heart would never, ever recover. She is so loved by me and my children and I think those who promise gay people that they can change do not realise the damage they do.
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I cried at this post Sister! I am not gay, nor are any of my immediate family members but I am a mother and would be heartbroken if I thought of my beautiful daughter trying to harm herself or hate herself because of what she is. Gay or straight, she will be loved by her mum and dad forever…
I am sure your sister knows how lucky she is to have such a wonderful sister in you.
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I think there are a few reasons.
Society is more accepting these days, there isn’t as much society condemnation as there used to be.
For people who also wanted a family, it was the only way to achieve to it. It is/was also somewhat easier for men to find some “action” on the side.
For those in their forties and fifties, it also coincides with the time that their kids are probably getting old enough to spread their wings and leave the nest as well…
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Try this… it’s made by the good people at Pixar. Grab a hanky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4MR8oI_B8
Much love to you and your sister xo
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This is what I was going to link to as well I bawled when I watched it.
Let your sister know – It Gets Better… It really does xx
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Hi Sister- my brother came out last year and yes it will get better! He was in a very dark place but theres a light at the end of the tunnel and you being there for her and supporting her is a big part of getting her there. I was devastated when I found out, not because it upset me or repulsed me but because I was exposed to all the self-hatred, and the hatred he’d experienced at the hands of others. Ignorance is bliss huh. Unlike you I was completely oblivious to him being gay (although he is a lot younger- school age still which doesn’t help) so when I found out it changed my perspective in a lot of ways. It’s easier for people to have a negative opinion when homosexuality doesn’t have a face for them. But it does for a lot of people and these are the people who are going to change the way society works. I am sure that with such wonderful family support she will get there- that was the clincher for my brother coming out, the fact thathe thought people would think differently of him. The only difference I’ve noticed so far, substituting boys for girls when I ask him who he’s interested in! Oh and a more vibrant wardrobe
XXXX lots of love to you
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Thank you eveyone, so kind. xx
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The bit I don’t understand about these strong vocal “Religious People” judging gays (or anyone) as being sinners etc, is that I thought it said in the bible:
“Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged”*
and
“Let He Who is Without Sin Cast the First Stone”*
So based on that, how is it they can judge others and declare them sinners without being sinners themselves?
* = probably not quoted correctly, but along the lines off.
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Firstly most “religious people” would admit that they are also sinners.
Secondly I get sick of people who quote only sections of the bible. Can you quote the sections that clearly state homosexual acts are a sin? Can you make a sound bibical based theological arguement on why many Christian believe that ACTING on same sex attraction is a sin?
I would like to see a positive article in the mainstream media about men/woman who are same sex attracted who deny this attraction because acting on it is a sin.
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“Can you quote the sections that clearly state homosexual acts are a sin?”
Can you? I have an idea of which section it is, but my Bible knowledge is shaky.
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I’m not sure where it is, but there’s a passage somewhere which says (along the lines of) “Man shall not lie with man”
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It’s Leviticus, thou shall not lie with another man as it is an abomination, but in the same section it also talks about eating shellfish being an abomination…….
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So if you’re a gay lobster then you are definitely going to hell.
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And if you’re an atheist gay lobster you may as well give up right now.
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That seriously made me LOL.
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Isn’t there also one in Leviticus about football being an abomination? “You shall not eat of their [pigs] flesh nor touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.”
http://www.11points.com/Book11_Things_The_Bible_Bans,_But_You_Do_Anyway
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You’re right, I’d forgotten about that one!
‘God hates fags….oh and football’
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Thanks for responding Anotherview. This post isn’t a church bash exercise…and discussions of the Bible are by the by.
The real issue here is do you genuinely believe that ignoring who a person is is a healthy way to live their life? Sexual urges are natural, one way or the other. They happen. If you tell somebody to ignore them forever and to pretend to be something they are not, I firmly believe that is an absolute recipe for disaster and leads to mental health problems.
I say this because, as a gay, I believe I am somewhat of an ‘expert’ in how gays feel, but of course can only speak for myself.
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Rick, I as a devout Catholic I have always appreciated your rationality. In this case I think calling for the app to be removed is jumping on a “pro-gay” for everything bandwagon. I can understand why gay’s and others would be upset, but I can also see where people who are using the application are coming from. If they believe this therapy can work (and really that is not for you or I to judge) then this app may just help them. Who are we to say that if it should or shouldnt be there.
Also as a Catholic I believe that Christianity should be tolerant of all people. There is much debate about the bibical references to sin and homosexuality. For me it is easy, ten commandments, no sex before marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman. They are MY beliefs. I try to turn away from sin, and believe that I (like everyone else) will be judged by our Lord when the time comes. I have gay friends and relatives and I am concerned for their souls, but they are ultimately responsible for themselves and their actions, sinful or otherwise. I don’t expect them to approve of my views or be convinced of them. I don’t think they should expect my approval but of course they have my love and tolerance.
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You sound just like my best friend
We argue about this all day long but ultimately we are still mates.
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My gay friend at work is trying to download the app because he thinks it’s funny…
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“There is much debate about the bibical references to sin and homosexuality. For me it is easy, ten commandments, no sex before marriage. Marriage is between a man and a woman. They are MY beliefs. I try to turn away from sin, and believe that I (like everyone else) will be judged by our Lord when the time comes. I have gay friends and relatives and I am concerned for their souls, but they are ultimately responsible for themselves and their actions, sinful or otherwise. ”
The bible was written by humans and their interpretation of what messages they though they received from God. So if they are interpreted that Gay marriage is sinful, I wonder if that is truly what God told them ?
This is why I do not have concern for their souls. I see you are really trying to not be judgmental, but in the next breadth you claim that their souls are in jeopardy.
It is notions like this that has made me turn away from the Church. I simply do not believe that stuff. Oh please do not mistake me I believe there are so many wonderful things I can take from the bible. There are so many insightful messages. HOWEVER, I read it from an objective point if view. It is HUMANS who wrote this bible. They wrote this in a way they FELT was Gods voice speaking through them. Take what I need and leave the rest behind.
Anyway, I was raised a strict Catholic. I went to Church 4 times a week. Then I was born again. I will not raise my son this way for the reasons you wrote above. I prefer to raise him with strict spiritual principles. Not judgement and condemnation. You do not need a religon to live like that
As much as I agree with you first paragraph. After all, some do want to change it. This is a very slippery slope in discussing as “why” do they want to change it. But, if they do, then we should respect that too.
But the “why” they want to change is what is of concerns for many in this forum.
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Tell me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that humans are the only ‘beasts’ that have a gay population. I have read that in many animal populations there is about a 10% of each population that is actively homosexual, whether regularly or not. If that’s true, are animals sinning? I imagine, of course that people can argue that with the eating of the apples from the tree that our eyes were opened to sin etc, but it seems to be a part of nature (not something practised by the majority, but still a part) and perhaps beyond sin???
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I’m uncomfortable calling homosexuality a sin, for obvious reasons, the most obvious being that it isn’t a choice. Now, somebody made me this way and I know I sure as hell don’t have a choice in the matter…so really, how sinful is that?
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my point exactly (I probably just rambled on a bit)
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I did not know that. How fascinating. Something really positive to contribute to this argument too!
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An app that helps you turn straight?
Really?
Is there an app that helps you turn into a decent, accepting, loving human being?
There should be.
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I would be the first to download it. Isn’t that what we would all be aiming for? Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Gay, Straight, Black, Purple…let’s all try being humanists alongside whatever beliefs we may hold.
Believing in God is wonderful, believing in the decency of fellow human beings is awesome.
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Exactly! I’m purple and can’t wait for the day people start embracing me as the fun, loving, purple, people eater I am
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Maybe we need an app that cures Religious Fanaticism….now THAT would benefit the world.
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Oh yes please.
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I absolutely second that! Bring it on!!
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