What an intriguing question for a debate. It wasn’t my idea, unfortunately but still. Intelligence Squared is an annual series of provocative live debates and the series “Feminism has Failed” took place in Melbourne in September. I caught the speeches broadcast one day on ABC Radio National’s Life Matters program (you can listen to the podcast of the series here) and I was so inspired and incensed and INTERESTED by what I heard that I contacted some of the presenters to share their words here.
I considered running them all together but there’s just too much to digest and it wouldn’t do them justice.
In this, the first Mamamia installment of Feminism Has Failed, we hear from Monica Dux, co-author of The Great Feminist Denial.
By Monica Dux
To claim the movement is a failure is not only wrong, it fails to grasp its complexity.
In the past decade we’ve become used to gloom-and-doom announcements – that feminism has let women down, has been unsuccessful in delivering on its promises, and that the hoped-for feminist utopia has failed to materialise.
And, of course, it’s true that women everywhere still face problems, some of them enormous and daunting. But is this a sign of feminism’s failure, or simply of how much work remains to be done? No feminist that I have ever met thinks feminism has ”succeeded” in the sense that it is a completed program, with its work finished and all its goals achieved.
Indeed, I think the feminist revolution has only just begun. Gender inequality is complex and pervasive, and it manifests in many different contexts around the globe. There is no quick fix; no simple solution to all the problems that women face.
F is for feminism
Let me give an example. I recently came across a 19th-century discussion of so-called conjugal rights; a man’s legal right to have sex with his wife – rape her, in effect – whenever he wanted. For the first wave of feminists in Australia, active in the 19th and early 20th century, the abolition of conjugal rights was an important goal. Yet it took a century for rape in marriage to be outlawed in this country – 1985 in the state of Victoria.
Should we see these early feminists and their ideals as failures because it took a long time to achieve this goal? Or should we see them as heroic women whose fight would be continued by other women, and whose aims would ultimately be achieved?
Saying that feminism has failed is short-sighted and simplistic, because it misunderstands and underestimates both feminism and the problems feminism is seeking to solve.
After all, who are these feminists that are said to have failed? We’ve usually got that archetypical feminist in mind – often she is the second-wave activist who marched for women’s lib in the 1970s and became a femocrat in the ’80s, hammering away at the glass ceiling. The feminists who fit that description did incredible work – they helped secure many of the fundamental reforms that we take for granted today – but still, they represent only one strand of feminism, and one approach.
Real feminism is constantly evolving and splintering; it’s broad, it’s dynamic. Feminism attempts to articulate and redress injustices against women in a dazzling variety of contexts. We don’t have a bible. It’s not a cult. And there never was a feminist central command, with Germaine Greer at the head of the coven, declaring that by the year 2010 a specific set of demands must be met.
Yet reducing feminism to a simplistic stereotype, then declaring it a failure, is far easier, more entertaining and probably more satisfying than grappling with nuance. It makes a better headline for a Sunday magazine supplement. It just happens to be completely wrong.
Yes, some feminists have failed to achieve their goals. Others manifestly have not. There have been mistakes made, and unintended consequences that still need figuring out.
Yet feminism will continue anyway, even if there are occasional setbacks and failures, because at the heart of all feminist activity is a simple desire to create a better, more just world for women.
This does not mean that we should never be critical of feminist ideas. It’s not a love-in. Disagreement among feminists is a sign of health, not failure.
Do we expect our rights handed to us on a plate?
The very fact that we are able to define and discuss the many complex problems that women still face is due to feminism; that words such as sexual harassment, domestic violence, sexism – words we now take for granted – have entered the vernacular.
Feminism has given us a language to talk about these issues. And in doing this, in putting them on the public agenda, feminism has succeeded even if women’s problems have not all been ”solved”.
Feminist voices are highly vocal in broader social justice groups, in mainstream political parties and their youth organisations.
Internationally, there is growing momentum for movements that tackle sex trafficking and gender-based violence. And feminists are all over the internet, from blogs to online campaigns. Tony Abbott only needed to utter the word ”virginity” and there was an army of feminists ready to take him to task.
To me, this groundswell of activity does not equate with ”failure”. It looks more like a renaissance.
One thing I know for certain: feminism has not failed me. It has allowed me have a career. It has given me financial independence. It encouraged me to take control of my reproduction, to value my body, to see my worth as more than what I can do in bed and what my womb can do. It has given me a sense of unity with other women, and opened my eyes to many injustices that I do not suffer, but that other women do. It has inspired me, infuriated me and challenged me.
But this isn’t the point, feminism is not about ”me” or, more correctly, what it has done for me.
Feminism is about a more just and equitable world for women, all women in all their many and varied contexts. And as long as we keep saying this – as I know my feminist sisters do – we have not failed. We’ve only just begun.
[image]
[This is an edited version of her speech delivered at the Intelligence Squared debate]
people will want me to write in depth about my relationship with feminism but I’ve done that before here.
So what do you think? Has feminism failed? Is feminism even relevant to you?
Comments
213 Comments so far
Feminism has not given me what i wanted, for me equality means women being able to be jmust like men i.e being able to be as fit and in shape as possible and walk down the street without getting looks at her body, having clothing made that is not aboput showing off certin areas. Not having to be pretty feminine etc instead going to the gym and gaining strength and speed as a measure of sucesss rather then trying to be as weak and small as possible. The end of male preditor behaviour and for it to become unexceptable for a male to chat up a woman in a public space that he does not know unless she is sat in an area that is reserved for copping off. Women to be subjects in all life experiences rather then objects. Children to wear unisex clothes and toys to be de gendered. Genderless pronouns the norm. All clothing styles to be aimed at both sexes and the end to the forced femininity done to women. Science also should be looking at ways to fix the inequalitys nature has created. Low dose testosterone should be an option for all adult women who feel trapped in a feminized box nature has created. Women are more prone to a range of illnesses as a price of having less testosterone, todays women have lower then normal testosterone due to environmental estrogens and birth control methods. Low testosterone in women effects the brain and bones and muscles. Workplace dress should be the same for both sexes always, formal dress should be the same for both sexes. A woman should be able to dress for something other then sex appeal. School girls should be taught that sperm doners are a valid reproductive option. Feminism should be replaced with a radical gender reform front that will take a no nonsense approch to ending gender inequality and getting freedom to be something other then our sex.
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Could MM do a post on the definition of feminism? I think it could get some interesting reponses- everyon’s definitions can widely vary.
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Who ARE all these extreme feminists who are scaring the pants off men and women? Where do these “hairy, rabid man-haters” exist?
Sounds like monsters under the bed to me
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Has feminism failed?
Not if making men automatically guilty and females automatically not guilty:
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What about OJ?
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True dat!
Although his getting off sparked a worldwide divide, the likes of which we’d not yet seen.
Nope, it’s another day, another female murderer gets off scot free for me.
No hub bub, just business as usual.
Of course feminism isn’t to blame, unless of course you read feminism’s largest blogs, then you’ll see hatred of men at it’s most obvious hiding behind feminism isn’t about hating men.
…unless you read the content.
Time and time again lay feminists who rush to defend feminism’s faux definition of being for equality don’t realize how much vitriol and immense hate there is for men on the most prominent feminist blogs and from the most prominent feminist leaders.
All men’s rights concerns are frequently opposed by angry feminists who wish to accuse men of having a patriarchy which takes care of men.
In other words they hide behind a bunk theory from which they can completely attempt to hinder men’s rights based on a weak theory that purports men to have all sorts of protections and advantages, though upon examination men have less legal protection than women and unconstitutional laws still exist which actively legally discriminate against men.
In fact upon examination all the stats point to men having far more oppressive lives and less choices across almost every single board.
Yet, there are people who would actively and angrily work to stop men receiving adequate legal, medical and vocational rights.
All because they are angry and perverse.
NOW the national organization for women actually (which is mind boggling) came out against the rights of fathers to have custody of children.
Seriously WTF – Where was feminism defending equality and vocalizing dissent against sexism on their behalf – Friggin tumbleweeds Rick, tumbleweeds.
Several Airlines stopped allowing men to sit next to unaccompanied children this is the direct result of typical feminist protesting against single male perpetrations as a systemic plausibility.
(I don’t know about you, but you only have to kiss a child on the play ground to see the full effect of what a few angry feminists can do when they focus on the crimes of an extremely small minority and focus page after page after page on a crime a “MAN” did, until reality is misrepresented in proportion.)
They do this by stating that feminism isn’t about man hating, but then proceed to fill entire blog and published content with the bad things men do and use gender based research to prove statistical fact – In the absence of duality…ALWAYS
All in all if you replaced men with black, Jew or latino it would be considered hate speech and much of the feminist agenda would be considered hate crime.
Don’t believe it?
There are several examples of translated feminist blogs where people transposed the word men with African American and Latino.
In fact there are hundreds of examples of feminist statistics being completely wrong and even fabricated. Why would person fake statistics unless they had a malicious intention?
Your average feminist may well indeed simply want equality, but I bet they are only really aware of the innequalities that beset their gender and are frequently too fast to dismiss the possibility that the millions of homeless men, suicidal men, men who can not see their children, men dying in dangerous jobs, men who live shorter lives, men who receive less medical care, men who receive gender biased criminal sentences and men who have their legal rights eradicated because of their gender, might possibly lack privilege.
Like all things cyclical, rights and oppressive cultural dynamics become exposed by those suffering.
Unfortunately many suffering men are silenced by feminists who refuse to believe men’s rights are worth a dime for shame.
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You know, I see and agree with many of the points you raise. I guess the difference is women forced social change with the feminist movement. How do you propose to address the inequalities you outline?
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I truly believe in equality for all and I don’t need to or want to hate on the beautiful women in my life to champion it.
Men’s issues are largely ignored because of the lingering chivalry that men still put women first and ignore their own suffering because to admit there is a problem is a weakness.
Unfortunately this attitude is heavily entrenched in women.
Feminism had to fight men that believed women had certain traits that needed to be maintained.
Right now men are still expected to be bread winners and if their wives want to stay home with kids it’s a choice they themselves will not be given, because in real society very few women value a man who wont work for his family.
Women still value a strong, rational, emotional stable breadwinner.
This means for lack of better wording that men seeking a partner feel they must hide their feelings and mask their sadness.
It means women still devalue more emotional males.
It means men’s health takes a backseat because we are taught by reality and experience that to maintain a woman’s respect we must not be weak.
Until women change the way they view men and misandry is dealt with and admonished the way misogyny is, then little will change
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On an individual level I think it’s quite easy for women to accept a man who expresses their emotions and doesn’t hide behind a masculine facade because it’s expected.
But on a societal level both sexes need to change the way they view men and their roles in society. Sure some (I guess most) women have expectations for men to be the traditional provider, however your cause wont get very far with guys ribbing their mates for not being masculine enough.
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Oh good grief.
Just a whiff of the word feminism and the Men’s Movement anonymous trolls come acrawling.
Why the gender-neutral name? Is it the priviledge of invisibility or the invisibility of priviledge?
Reminds me of a cartoon from Toothpaste for Breakfast
“The men’s movement: it’s just like feminism but 20 per cent better!!!”
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What’s your exact argument?
I’ve made hundreds of comments on this forum so to call me a troll from behind your first name is kinda rich really.
Your name could be anything.
My privilege was to be raised poor and spend my teenage years and early twenties delivering pizza and cleaning toilets.
I’d love to know what privileges I have because I am a man.
It’s interesting how you come acrawling to shoot down without any intellectual attempt at counterargument, just strawman accusations
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If you want my last name I am more than happy to give it to you. I comment on FB all the time so I figure it’s known.
Trolling in the sense that I’d say you are using some deliberately inflammatory remarks (some anti feminist sentiments) when it’s pretty well know that MammaMia has a strong feminist lean. And with an alias…-> trolling?
You delivered pizzas and cleaned toilets?Most of us did that until we established our careers. The privilege is that men earn 17 per cent more.
My first professional position in Social Work paid $11 an hour. It was case managing people with disabilities. It was hard yakka and dangerous at times. I experienced an assault by a client.
Only recently has it been acknowledged by politicians that the community sector is underpaid because it is predominantly female and female work isn’t highly valued in our society.
I don’t believe in a second in female = victim. Women can be strong and vulnerable just as men can be.
But the examples you’ve given are pretty shoddy…
D Strauss-K: the case is ongoing so I have no idea whether he’s guilty or not. Just as he’s innocent until proven guilty so is she. What message are you sending out to victims of sexual abuse?
OJ SIMPSON; (???) really? how’s his behaviour been since that incident?
I don’t buy for one moment that whole Bob Ellis argument about feminists trying to bring down powerful men. Doesn’t that just do what you are accusing feminists of doing eg. painting one group automatically as guilty and one as innocent.
Male privilege – It’s getting less but… as in 17 per cent more in wages than women. As in not having your sexual choices frame you as a slut, prude, whore, frigid or skank. As in not having your clothing choices paraded in tabloids even if you are a prime minister or a high court judge. Not being judged in the workforce for your choices to have children or not have children. Do you wan’t me to go on?
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Why would I want you to go on Susan?
You quickly jump to name calling when you have no argument and you have no evidence for any claim you make.
I didn’t earn 17% more than any other woman cleaning toilets or delivering pizza.
There is no wage gap, everyone knows it is a myth. Women choose far easier, lower paying jobs and work less hours.
Therefor….drumroll….They earn less.
Apart from the mountain of evidence that supports this, all you really have to do is walk out your front door, if anecdotal and personally referenced evidence is what you seek as it seems to be the yardstick to which you measure men.
Go outside and look at what men do.
Look at the builders lifting large planks in the hot sun, working 50 hours + per week. Look at the gardeners and road workers putting in the hard yards and slogging their guts out in Australia’s harsh heat.
Now go to the mall and look at the service sector. Look at the cashiers working in the airconditioning putting in a solid 35 hour week.
Look at the female bank tellers slavishly sitting at the counter, forcibly cooled by man-invented airconditioning.
Look at the 85% of teachers who are female and spend a whopping average of 35 hours a week 37 weeks a year predominantly sitting down.
All choices.
All lower pay.
As for the subject of sexual choices, do women ever get accused of “thinking” with their genitals?
Do women get called jerks if they decide to end a relationship?
I broke up with a girl who thought it was her female privileged right to hit me with a fire poker leaving me with 16 stitches and 50% loss of my mobility in my thumb.
If I did that I would still be in jail not finishing 60 hours of community service.
Female routinely complain about the slut comparison, yet where in our culture do men as a large percentage get back pats and high fives for having sex?
It’s myth.
A handful of alphas out of the gross majority of men do not represent the rest, but so much of fringe feminism tries hard to paint men with the boatload of what the small minority do, but systematically refuse to apply the same feminist logic (oxymoron) to crimes committed by females.
Using the same use of extremity it would be like saying women are child murderers and it is culturally normative.
I don’t care about your last name or any name. Hiding behind your real name on screen isn’t any braver than a non deplume used to make a bigger point about who your are than a generic name.
You called me a troll several times, yet you are the name caller.
Can you see the irony?
Substantiate?
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if you remember correctly the majority of society supports Strauss-kahn and claimed he was innocent (france) whilst the majority of american society wanted Casey Anthony KILLED. Your argument is flawed.
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Flawed huh?
Did Casey Anthony go to jail?
Did I miss something?
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Feminism hasn’t let me down. It has let me have the life that I want to have, individually – and with my partner. My Mother and Father both worked full time all my life, yet my mother did everything around the house, handled the finances, was ALWAYS designated driver, and was the main caregiver for my brother and I. In saying this, my father is a wonderful man who works hard. My mother never complained and still doesn’t. In the last ten years my father has began to cook and clean and make more effort. My Mother simply implies that ‘that’s what it was like.’ Today, my partner and I shaer the cooking, cleaning, driving, and we both work and earn an equal amount of money. Feminism HAS WORKED for me, and it has worked for my parents. What scares me is that when my partner and I have children, will I be comfortable to be at home not working? I have a job in a male orientated industry, and some older males hate having female workers on their shift, especially if the female is a supervisor. BUT, all in all most a pretty good, especially those 40 and under. So, I am forever grateful for feminism as it has given both my partner and I, and my parents a great life.
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Women cannot keep blaming men for all their problems. The improvements have been huge in last 50 years. The right to contribute hugely to the economy and work — ( those women who were serious have become Prime Ministers and CEOs of global companies), the right to vote, in divorce they get all power and resources. The DSK case and most feminists reactions speak volumes about what has become bad about the 21st century feminism. This is the sort of thing gen x, y women are turning away from
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I’m sitting reading this while my husband washes up and gets the kids ready. That would never have happened in my childhood. Spent yesterday with some friends with 2 small kids – he stays home while she goes out to work. That would never have happened in my childhood
Viva la feminisme!
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I think we have a fair way to go. I think it’s pretty bad that if you want to maintain your career, you have to chuck your kids into formal childcare for 10+hours a day when they’re only a year old. Ok, maybe it’s not feasible to hold your job open for longer than a year, but what if you could ask the govt to find you a job in a field similar to the one in which you worked 2 years ?
I’ve just gone back to my old job a year after giving birth and it feels very wrong to be separated from my child. She’s too young and I’m not ready. But I’m very worried I won’t be able to find a job in a few years time.
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Feminism has allowed us all the choice to do what we want to do. And to enjoy an education many of our Grandmothers could not. I’m all for equality for women, but with that equality I think we can be a little blinkered to the fact that our childrens rights arent always being recognised. I’m all for a feminist world where our babies and children arent treated like second rate citizens, where its not taboo to question whether some kids might not be getting a fair go while their mums kick their career goals. At the moment that seems to be very out of balance. Its OK to put your hand up and admit that while you might be enjoying the success that feminism has allowed you, your kids arent and they deserve some time with their mum too. Thats OK and its not letting the sisterhood down.
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Feminism has sooooo much work to do.
Just got back from o/s and was saddened (and completely astounded) by the lack of opportunity our sisters have in other less-developed countries. I think that while there are still communities that do not ‘believe’ that girls need to be educated, that women should be whipped for being raped, that girls should be sold to be married etc, etc, etc. then feminism still has a lot of work to do.
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Thanks for putting things into perspective. You are so right Finiam.
People complaining that they can’t have a career and juggle family life perfectly, well not only DUH! but have a look at what you do have and what you could have and what others are in need of and stop to think about how we have a responsibility to strive for the freedom of all our sisters instead of complaining.
Feminism isn’t here to make your singular life perfect and comfortable. It is here to help women the world over be treated as human beings. It is in essence a human rights movement. We fight for the rights of people in worse situations than us. A hundred years back western women had no rights, they had to be fought for. Their survival depended on meeting a man who would treat her well and support her financially. Over that century a long and slow struggle took place which has led us to where we are and the rights we are now very obviously taking for granted. The least we can do is continue the fight for the benefit of others if not for ourselves and future generations of women.
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I dont think that mentality is even isolated to overseas countries. I know someone who doesnt want to ‘waste’ money on sending her daughter to a private school (when her sons go to a private school) because ‘she’s just a girl’. That makes me really pissed off. Even if she chooses to become a stay at home mum she will be using her education to raise an intelligent family. Personally I cant see a more important reason to educate a woman than that.
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“doesnt want to ‘waste’ money on sending her daughter to a private school”
Wow. Just wow.
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Oh my, wow I’m speechless. I had no idea that some women in Australia still felt that way. Gosh…
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I am feeling like it has failed me this week I am sorry to say. Now I have the successful full time career contributing equally to the family finances, raising a child, running the house and feeling run down. My husband has lost his ability to think for himself as I have realised that if I want any assistance I must ask – I now find myself constantly giving him instructions. I would like to raise another question – what affect is this going to have on my 16 month old son when he grows up watching his mother doing everything and constantly giving orders to his father? Are we weakening our men? Many of you talk about choices but what do we give up? Our brains now require stimulation as they have had exposure to successful careers, our lives our set up to require the double income, I wouldn’t give my son back for anything……..maybe this topic has got me on a bad week, end of a big year, a break may make be grateful for equality again.
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What you speak of Ruby is not equality or feminism. And I think everyone knows what effect it has for a child to see their mother doing everything and not requiring anything of her husband. It teaches young girls that they have to take care of their men, and it teaches young boys to expect to be taken care of by women. That is not feminism.
Feminism is not the expectation of women to do everything for everyone and not complain. That is actually what feminism is against.
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That’s not feminism failing, that’s your husband being a dickhead…
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Umm not ‘our men’ but maybe ‘your man’ – sorry love. Just because your man’s weak doesn’t mean they all are.
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To Sue Brennan and Anonymous below,
I don’t think it is the job of feminism to make all of this easy, it is it’s job to make it possible.
Some women say they want it all and they go about trying to get it all. That actually means you have to DO it all.
At the end of the day it is your choice what you do with your life. No feminist should be disappointed if a woman chooses to stay at home and raise children, or if they choose to concentrate on their career, or if they choose to travel the world. There is no RIGHT way to live your life and THAT is what feminism is about.
These “expectations” everyone speaks of, just like all expectations, are impossible. It shouldn’t be about proving you can do everything, although good luck to you if you can. It’s about having the opportunity to do everything if you want to. No-one said it’s easy and it’s still your choice, what you undertake in life, how you handle the obstacles.
I don’t like that people blame others for their choices in life, and I don’t like that people blame feminism for not solving all our problems.
I’m not having a go at you, I’m just saying that feminism is for women. How we all apply it to our lives makes or breaks our own personal success, not feminism’s success itself.
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Yos, I agree with you, but it is fairly simplistic to say that feminism is: giving women the opportunities they didn’t once have.
I believe it has opened opportunities for women but hasn’t solved the bigger picture, and that is, that with those opportunities comes a lack of structure to support them.
Yes we can surpass the glass ceiling, but has feminism given women the skills to deal with that and do what is often expected of them also, bearing children etc?
Yes femnism has made it more acceptable in society for a woman to do a man’s job, but did it give women the support structure to do that without falling in an exhausted heap?
It’s pleasing that their are women that have supportive partners who share the family duties, however, my understanding amongst my peers is that this is the exception rather than the rule.
Until feminism can break the negative misconceptions of it that generally society has, and teach the men of the world that a woman can only do what a man can do if she has the support structures in place that a man has to do what HE does, then it has failed in my books.
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But feminism is US. It is women. As I said it is not the job of feminism to make life easy. Do you think life is easy for men doing what they do? You want to talk about support structures, men may have the patriarchal support of social mores, but they are pretty much on their own in the pursuit of their life goals. No different to us.
Men have hundreds of years of traditional values to live up to too. It is still the excpetion rather than the rule for a man to take the primary care giving role in a family and men are still under pressure to be the breadwinners of the family as well as all the other social expectations put on men.
Women have to accept that as free as we are to pursue our goals, though there is still a long way to go in terms of changing attitudes, there comes a point where physically, mentally, emotionally, you have to draw a line on what you expect of yourself. You cannot ask “feminism” to make you the perfect woman able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, raise perfect children, spend the correct amount of time with them, be the perfect wife and allow you to have a full- time career and not expect something to suffer as a consequence. You can’t complain that feminism does not allow us to have it all. I re-iterate, that is not what feminism is about.
Life for both men and women is about balance, and feminism definitely can’t make that easy for any of us. You have to make choices in life and you have to live by them.
When you speak of what is expected of women, ie having children and careers, that is may be what you expect of yourself. I will probably never have children and probably never be married, that is what I have chosen for myself at this point in time. I in no way intend on trying to snare a man so I can fulfill some warped sense of obligation to the world/society/whatever. You do not have to have kids to be a woman, you do not have to have a career to be a feminist, you do not HAVE TO be anything, but you DO have the freedom to choose your path.
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But feminism is US. It is women. As I said it is not the job of feminism to make life easy. Do you think life is easy for men doing what they do? You want to talk about support structures, men may have the patriarchal support of social mores, but they are pretty much on their own in the pursuit of their life goals. No different to us.
Men have hundreds of years of traditional values to live up to too. It is still the excpetion rather than the rule for a man to take the primary care giving role in a family and men are still under pressure to be the breadwinners of the family as well as all the other social expectations put on men.
Women have to accept that as free as we are to pursue our goals, though there is still a long way to go in terms of changing attitudes, there comes a point where physically, mentally, emotionally, you have to draw a line on what you expect of yourself. You cannot ask “feminism” to make you the perfect woman able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, raise perfect children, spend the correct amount of time with them, be the perfect wife and allow you to have a full- time career and not expect something to suffer as a consequence. You can’t complain that feminism does not allow us to have it all. I re-iterate, that is not what feminism is about.
Life for both men and women is about balance, and feminism definitely can’t make that easy for any of us. You have to make choices in life and you have to live by them.
When you speak of what is expected of women, ie having children and careers, that is may be what you expect of yourself. I will probably never have children and probably never be married, that is what I have chosen for myself at this point in time. I in no way intend on trying to snare a man so I can fulfill some warped sense of obligation to the world/society/whatever. You do not have to have kids to be a woman, you do not have to have a career to be a feminist, you do not HAVE TO be anything, but you DO have the freedom to choose your path.
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after reading some of these comments, combined with some horrible homophobic comments through facebook and my frutiless job-searching, i think i’m just going to lie down and have a bit of a cry! what a day.
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I took so many classes at uni where people will refuse to call themselves feminists because they’re not ‘hairy, rabid man-haters’. these are educated young women!
proof in itself that feminism is still needed, to educate my generation and inform them that feminism hasn’t ‘stopped’, there are still inequalitiesand you have a lot to thank those rabid hairy man-haters for! yeesh.
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Maybe it’s a good thing that some of these inequalities still exist so the people who think they have nothing to thank feminism for can still have something to overcome.
Lazy ingrates!
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Sorry to let the side down, but I think it has failed ME anyway! I’m exhausted all the time and I simply can’t do it ALL properly. Being a full time working single mother of two teenagers, I have had to let something go, for me it is relationships. I don’t have the time or energy to put into a new relationship. The only reason why I would want a husband right now is to take out the garbage, mow the lawn and tidy the garage, and simply, that is not a reason for a relationship. I’m grateful for feminism allowing me to work along side males in the corporate world, but I do headbut the proverbial “boys club” in the work arena constantly. I have been pressured to take male clients out in the evenings, but find it difficult to do so on a professional level, especially where alcohol is involved (and I don’t mean my behaviour, but theirs, and the lines get blurred in these one on one situations).I often get knocked back from invitations because reading between the lines I’m sure the client is worried what his wife might think and I don’t blame them! Then, because I’m not out wining and dining the clients, I am seen by the (male) managers to not be trying too hard in my job!
Just because feminism keeps on failing me, does not mean it is a total failure!
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Totally empathise with your situation Sue, deeply, and I know exactly what you mean re the boys club in the workplace, but I think its important for us to remember – for lots of reasons – that feminism, or at least 2nd-wave feminism, wasnt ever really saying women should be “having it all” – it was about many things, of course, but one of the key things was about women’s liberation from the structures of (patriarchal) oppression, that included the way work is currently structured in western societies (ie, with workers benefiting from/essentially needing a wife to function at their best). The problem is not you, or what feminism was trying to do, but an unchanged social framework that women are trying to “fit into”. That’s why we’re all so bloody tired!
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Bang on, femmo. We have choices now where we didn’t have them before….now we choose to do everything! Sometimes, it doesn’t always feel like a choice though. First world problems maybe?
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Think about why your always tired. Feminism does not change the way you feel strongly about many things men do not give any energy or a second thought to. Men and women are different in some ways. Trick is to know yourself and work with it. Women who try to be men don’t do themselves any favours. Women have advantages over men in some areas and men have advantages over women in some areas with exceptions of course. Work with it and not against it.
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That boys club thing used to really piss me off when I was working. Friday afternoon was always a nightmare. We would all go out for lunch and have a few drinks…..but we (the women in our group) would always return within an hour and resume work. Because thats what we were paid to do. The men would stay drinking, sometimes umtil 4pm. And then stagger back and try and finish off for the day.
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Failed? No, but it has certainly complicated things as far as families are concerned ,no longer are women expected to stay at home and simply raise the children and take care of the house, now we are expected to have wonderful careers AND raise children and run the family home.I dont mean to sound ungrateful for the right to vote ect (should mention I was raised my a very strong feminist mother)but sometimes cant help feeling a bit let down,i know this will be an extremely unpopular view, but maybe it is a mothers place to stay at home and raise her children rather than being an incubator for the next generation, ie give birth ‘bond” for a few months then hand over to child care worker for 10hrs a day so we can keep up with the boys in that career we have worked so hard for
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Only a small whinge really when I think about the inequality women face in so many countries around the world…..but, her goes anyway.
I work in a male dominated industry that is slowly starting to promote more women.
I’m in my early 30′s and have been reasonably successful in my career, but am at an age when I want to start a family. I’m petrified that as soon as I go on maternity leave my job will be filled by a couple of blokes that are sniffing around it. One in particular I know is not as good a performer in his role as I am, but has such great boys club connections that it doesn’t seem to matter.
A colleague of mine had a baby recently and when she returned she was of course on the same pay, but placed in a lesser role (which was of course dressed up to be the same type of role but clearly wasn’t!) Doesn’t give me much hope of being supported with my current employer.
Hardly equality is it?
We have a loooong way to go, I just hope that younger women keep fighting for what we all deserve, I certainly do and I appreciate those that have gone before me and done it a lot tougher than I have.
Any suggestions on how I can retain my job when I’m on maternity leave?
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You can’t! What’s the saying – ‘never take a holiday …’ Some of us still have to choose between career and family it seems.
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Your employer is legally required to keep your job for you while you are on maternity leave. The best way to ensure you don’t get put on a lesser role is to stay involved – organise to keep receiving emails and check them once a day, and make sure someone keeps you in the loop re: firm/industry functions. Its only a small amount of time overall but will ensure everyone knows you are still involved and are going to return at the same capacity! Best of luck!
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The business has to survive while you are away and into the future– its reality.
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For me it has worked. I am a medical specialist in an amazing field. I have four kids, and I certainly work hard. I love the buzz of work and I love the happiness of my family…I wouldn’t exchange it for anything!!!…I also would like to say that that feminism as opened up great opportunities for my male peers….they have taken a year off in turns with their female partner trainee specialist wives’…I think this has certainly worked due to the antidiscrimination laws in the public service…and I believe in actual fact that the training has been richer for it…there is now a larger and more empathetic field of doctors out there.
Interestingly enough, I had a female lawyer friend who worked in a sex discrimination area..she took a short amount of time off….few months…no job left for her when she came back!….sex discrimination..ha..ha!!
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Failed????
I don’t think so. I have grown upin a world where I have never doubted I could do what I wanted and have never felt oppressed as a woman.
I think it is important to embrance the differences between the sexes and not define being equal as being the same.
The reality woman in general are better at nuturing, and the more emotional aspect of life and men tend to be better and physical things being so much stronger.
Feminism to me is just being able to be the woman you want to be. And I feel I have done that.
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I think feminism needs to be defined again for the younger audience. To me feminism is about achieving equal rights for women and in many senses this is still a work in progress. In the first world, at least, most women enjoy the benefits of legislation which grants them the same rights as men. This can be confusing to young women who don’t understand why we need feminism anymore. However, having the same opportunities legally still does not always translate to the same opportunities as men in a practical sense. Also feminism has barely made a dent in many countries and cultures around the world. I believe that feminism is about achieving equal opportunities for women and simultaneously celebrating everything that it means to be a woman. After all, we’re really quite fabulous!
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Sexism is still alive and kicking in the world. Yes, it cuts both ways and affects both genders, but being male still comes with huge amounts of privilege. Do I regard this as a failure of feminism? No, of course not. That is absurd. Feminism is an ongoing movement. Societies don’t just change a behaviour that has been going on for centuries over the course of a few decades.
I am 23 years old and I am a feminist. Few things disturb me more than ‘I am not a feminist, but-’ feminists. True equality won’t just happen. It will happen because we made it happen. Any time we are not pushing forward is a time when can lose ground. It can happen so easily. Before WW1, we had mainstream women’s press agitating for equal work for equal pay. That wouldn’t be seen for decades, because WW1 was spent focussing on being wives and mothers. Being content that you don’t feel discriminated against isn’t really enough. The point of the movement is to seek equality for women everywhere.
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Good on you Jess! I am so glad to see women in their 20′s that believe in feminism still! I am in my 30′s and worry sometimes that my younger sisters have given up the fight!
I agree there is still a long way to go and it’s up to us to keep pushing forward for our daughters and theirs to come!
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oh, ‘i’m not a feminist but-’ and it’s equally-horrid sister, ‘but i’m not a feminist, ew!’
both should be stricken from speech.
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I just want to add something that isn’t exclusively to do with feminism, but somewhat related.
Sexism in conjunction with the beauty myth (now I know it doesn’t only effect women) have ingratiated themsleves so subtley in the 21st century and it has a lot to do with celebrity culture.
I was watching the Hills yesterday, I don’t normally, but I stumbled across a really early episode. When I saw Heidi Montag I almost cried. Here in front of me was this beautiful California-girl who looked like the girl next door, if I can use every cliche in the book. When I think of her now it is so sad what she did to her face, her body and her expressions. She looked so normal and happy back then, now I think of her as a sad victim of celebrity. She’s not the only one obviously.
What people, especially women, do to themselves to look “beautiful” is a complete tragedy.
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While trying to research a quotation, I came across this website.
http://planetoddity.com/shocking-sexism-vintage-ads/
I’m still in shock.
I think I need counselling.
Things are a bit better now, aren’t they??
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They don’t come right out and say it, but a lot of these attitudes still exist sadly. Like racism.
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I agree, but thank god we now have the right and the vocabulary to criticise the dominant culture.
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Fantastic article, thanks. We still live in a patriarchy, but it is a much better patriarchy because of feminism.
As a feminist, I am completely bamboozled by (some) women’s enthusiasm for painful and restrictive footwear, i.e. high heeled shoes. Can anyone explain?
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Hilarious you should bring that up.
I’m reasonably senior in government and everybody else at that level is in restrictive, uncomfortable, clothes and footwear.
My a-hole boss said today “you are the only woman who always wears flats” and I said “Women have been doing stupid things for each other since the turn of time, high heels are just the new corset”
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I don’t think feminism has failed because I don’t think there is a date when the process was supposed to be finished. Didn’t we just get paid parental leave? Where is the evidence the process is stalling or failing? Clearly it’s still going. It’s ongoing and what has been achieved to date in a relatively short period time (looking at 1800s to now) is pretty damn remarkable.
That said I prefer the term equalist. I think for women my age (mid 20s) feminism can be a loaded term that can come with some negative connotations, rightly or wrongly.
I’m thankful for what feminists have achieved that I benefit from but at times I get annoyed with certain strands of feminism and some of the feminist blogs I read (like feministing.com) because I feel my aspirations and interests are often belittled. I hope to take time out from my career to have a family and be a stay at home mum and I love ballet, anything pink, sparkles, fashion and being girly. I don’t see those interests as being in opposition to having a brain and caring about the status of women are the world. The movements like ‘pink stinks’ make me feel like as an educated career woman I am somehow betraying the sisterhood one pearl twinset at a time.
The movement will continue it will just be broader and more inclusive because we want lots of different choices and life has changed. I think old school feminism hasn’t ‘failed’, just had it’s time and served it’s purpose and the movement has changed. People are confusing changing priorities and an adapting movement with failure. There is still plenty to fight for.
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regarding the term ‘equalist’ i’ve heard that, but i think because ‘feminist’ has bad connotations for many young women, we need to keep using it. i’m all for educating my peers about why ‘feminist’ is a good term.
hard work, but i find it fun! although i’ve just started my PhD which is mired in feminist studies so i’m biased
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Go Nico! I’m doing my PhD in a few years on Feminist studies and the Church… the sisterhood lives!
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I think the majority of women in Australia and maybe the US and UK and some European contires are pretty comfortable with their lives. Sometimes being comfortable menas you don’t want much to change. Truth is, change needs to happen. We still need to advance feminism. Women will always be set back in society unless they push themselves forward.
Feminism should be relevant to every woman. Every woman who has rejected sex, every woman who has had an abortion, every woman who votes, every woman who has a job, every woman who wants an education, every woman who wants the best opportunities and rights for their daughter/future generations of women.
Feminism has allowed women to burst out of the box that society would have them stay in. It is easier and ruffles less feathers to go along with the status quo. If everyone thought that way women would still be relinquishing control of their live and their futures, not to men or a man or whoever else, but to this invisible force that keeps us all where it wants us. To the patriarchal society that would prevail even more strongly than it does today.
Think about what we owe to feminism and then say that it has failed.
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I don’t know if it’s failed or not but I had a friend tell me that she wasn’t a feminist while I was at uni and I was surprised. It made me wonder if feminism is seen as a white, anglo-saxon, middle class movement and whether it had not really reached people in other classes/cultures/countries.
I wouldn’t call it a ‘failure’ as I’ve done pretty well from the past work of feminists but it does seem like there is a lot more to do.
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Yes and I think that’s the point. There will always be a lot more to do. Women can’t just rest on their laurels because as we’ve seen in the rise of raunch culture for instance, we can always go backwards when we are not going forward.
Women who say the aren’t feminists maybe have the wrong idea about what a feminist is. There are many negative perceptions of feminists. Truth is every woman owes something to the feminist movement and for them not to see that is really quite ignorant IMO.
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It would be interesting to know how widespread the misconception is amongst women outside the ‘white/anglo-saxon/middle class’ demographic. Is it a problem for feminism or not? What draws people to make this conclusion?
It’s all very well for me to say ‘I’m a proud feminist’ because it is probably quite normal for people like me to say so. What stops other women from joining in, if in fact they aren’t. I was quite taken aback with what my friend said. I hadn’t encountered that opinion before. She’s not at all stupid. Is feminism seen as being elitist somehow?
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If you go online, where there’s a lot of debate and writing, you’ll see a lot of work about privilege, which basically means being born with certain characteristics which confer advantages in the way you are treated by society (eg, being white, middle class, slim, male, able-bodied – most of us a privileged in some way).
Most white, middle class feminists recognise that they are hugely privileged and that as feminists we need to recognise this and work to ensure that society stops privileging people (men or women) because of these arbitrary characteristics.
A lot of women like us who have access to good education, great career opportunities, living in a first world country and above all the choice to be whoever we want to be, can be blissfully unaware of the privilege this bestows on us. We (and I absolutely include myself in this!) can forget that not everyone has the same choices as us, and we can forget that other women and other people don’t have the same freedom to choose their own destiny and make their own mistakes. We take the ability to vote, own property and drive a car so much for granted that we forget that not everyone else is so lucky!
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Maybe a better topic would have been “what more does feminism have to offer the first world woman?” As a young woman I’m hard pressed to think of what my life is lacking due to my gender aside from family/work issues. And even those issues cross gender lines. I can get a safe abortion (still an issue in many first world countries yes), sue my employer for sexual discrimination, get the education I desire, do any job (except maybe frontline army?) etc.
Maybe feminism isn’t dead or failed, it has simply succeeded for the large part and now relevant only to those lesser privilege. Maybe the role of feminists today is to help pass on the torch to the less fortunate.
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And to keep the torch burning for ALL women. Not only the less fortunate. Just as we should never forget the white Australia policy or the black civil rights movements, women have a responsibility to never let people forget how bad it could be if we didn;t fight for the rights we have. We should never take for granted that we are free.
I don’t think you are right that feminism has succeeded in large part and to say that I think is a bit dangerous because people will and do rest on their laurels.
Look at the strip clubs and brothels and xxx mags. People say it’s just guys being guys and it’s a healthy way to express their desires. To me it is dispicable and until there are no women ready and willing to put themselves up as sex objects then in my eyes feminism has definitely not succeeded. That is just one example that springs to mind.
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A girlfriend of mine is very strongly “anti feminist”, not in the sense of being against the right to vote, equal pay for equal work and that sort of thing. But being against the feminist movement itself. She believes feminism has been taken over by “emasculating manhaters”. This friend is white/anglo/middle class.
And I think that opinion is more widespread in the general public, amongst both men and women, at least more so than I ever thought. It seems like the loudest voices in feminism, or the voices that get heard by the most amount of average people, are the voices of outside the mainstream feminists.
I try arguing with her (and other people I know with the same opinions) that you can be a feminist without agreeing with every other feminist (what some feminists have to say annoys and even angers me at times). But it seems like a lot of people treat it as a dirty word, while still being for many of the ideals feminism stands for.
In terms of what feminism needs to do to stay relevant, I think part of it is PR. A lot of people out there (of my generation, gen y)seem to think we hate men. I for one definetley don’t, I love and embrace men in fact, and I still call myself a feminist.
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Yep this is a tricky one Emma J and I don’t have any answers.
I don’t understand it myself, the attitude of your friend. I think there has been a severe and concerted and sustained backlash against feminism since it’s conception. Women have tried to put it down themselves maybe because the men in their lives don’t agree with it, maybe because their upbringing tells them otherwise, maybe they are just died-in-the-wool conservative or old-fashioned values, or maybe they just don’t see how good they have it and how some of their “priveliges” can be traced back to the battles feminism has waged and won.
Some men also try their darndest to minimalise and trivialise, just as some people do for gay rights. The people who perceive themselves as having the most to lose if a movement should continue or take root are usually the loudest against it. Look here for examples of men rallying against the women’s sufferage movement in the early 1900′s. http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/72305
There is a certain type of woman I have observed who see being a feminist as being anti-man, there are people who see promoting peace as being a hippy. These are black and white stereotypes and people need to look past the propaganda and the naysaying and educate themselves. Germaine Greer sometimes does no-ne any favours, but she says what she thinks and that is what feminism has afforded her as it has afforded all of us. I don’t think this post flows very well, but I hope people pick up my point.
thx
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That’s a good point. Feminism has always had it’s detractors. It was easy to fob off the men as being chauvanistic but I find it harder when it’s the women. There are probably some legitimate concerns in it from some of them though. Maybe feminism mostly gets reported from the universities (I’m thinking Germaine Greer) and is seen as overly intellectual and controversial? How would you make feminism more inclusive? Would it need to become more inclusive?
Sorry I mostly have questions and not answers really.
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Maybe you’re right Karen. It’s easy for me to say that some women don’t like the term or the concept of feminism because of the fear/thought that it makes women less attractive to men, but in a lot of cases I think this is true sadly. They may not acknowledge it, but for some I really believe this is what it comes dwon to.
Maybe for some others it is overly intellectual. I struggle with the concept of PR for feminism though. I don’t quite see how you can have PR for it. I don’t see how it can be more inclusive and I’m not sure it is purely a white anglo saxon middle class thing. I never thought about it like that but again, maybe you’re right.
I don’t think women as a group, just as men as a group or people as a group, can be on the same wavelength at all times. You only need to watch a show like Survivor to see that we all have mainly our own interests at heart.
I feel that some women feel protected in their environment and don’t see the need to ruffle feathers as long as they’re taken care of, however that may occur. Some don’t appreciate that other women go to great lengths and sometimes great risk to fight for the rights they enjoy.
This debate is so nuanced and complex that it is hard to nail down, maybe impossible to get to a definitive solution. I think it will simply be an ongoing process of inching our way forward and never being able to let up.
There is still a great patriarchy at work and there are still so many willing to take us back in time, both women and men, because of unfounded fears and prejudices and ignorance.
Certain sections of the media and individuals with vested interests in keeping things as they are/were have been very successful in villifying feminists and feminism. It has been quite effectively sabotaged to the point where some women see no value in it and that is very sad to me.
My only answer is to go back to basics. Equality, freedom of choice, and everything that goes wth it. Nobody can have a problem with that can they?
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Can I just add that feminism shouldn’t be restricted to demographics if it truly is, women should care enough to embrace it the world over. Feminism isn’t a product, it’s an ideal. In it’s simplest form it is for the basic rights of women to not be discriminated against because of their gender. That is it. I’m not sure how it became so convoluted and badly thought of. It’s really very easy.
We are all human, we are all entitled to the pursue what we want out of life.
It’s a human rights issue at heart, just as same sex marriage and religious and racial tolerance are human rights issues. We should all be equal.
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“I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.”
Rebecca West
There is another quote I love out there somewhere but I can’t remember who said it. Can anyone help? It’s something like:
Any woman who doesn’t regard herself as a feminist but refuses to be treated like seagull poo on the windscreen of life, has her terminology wrong.
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Haven’t heard these, but so true. Thanks.
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I love how you phrase that and I get what you mean for other people who have my type of advantage in life and enjoy the privileges of living in a western democracy and a part of the dominant culture. But does it apply to women that aren’t? Is it a matter of terminology or do people feel that the terminology is not relevant to their culture/class/identity?
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When i think about feminism i like to think back to one of its original goals – liberation.
Feminism is not about equality, because equality implies women are striving to be like men, working to be the same as men. And this is simply incorrect. I do not want to be the same as a man, but i do want to be liberated from the constrains of being a woman.
In the western world these constrains still exist, equivalent pay for men & women is one example of this – (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/23/2961992.htm).
In less developed nations feminist have much more work to do.
But the concept that feminism has failed is so ridiculous it does not even justify comment. Of course it has not failed, it’s still going.
I do get quite upset when i hear my friends say “feminism is dead”. Just because some women feel comfortable with their place in life, free to do as they choose (liberated you might say…) it does not mean all women are. Saying “feminism is dead” is selfish and ignores the plights of women around the world who are not even close to being liberated from the constraints placed on them purely because they are a woman.
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You’re absolutely right: “It has not failed, it is still going.” perhaps a better topic would be “Feminism has succeeded”?
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Very well said KL. I completely agree. Especially the point about women in this country and women elsewhere. There are many women in Australia completely happy with how their life has gone and how it will go into the future, including me. While not perfect and with room left for improvement, we’re lucky to live in this country. So I completely disagree when some women say it is dead or unnecessary now. We have it good here, but the majority of women around the world still do not have something approaching to equal opportunity.
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I get your point KL, but I do think that feminism is fundamentally about equality- the granting of and access to universal human rights that are not exclusive to a particular gender.
The tragedy of feminism is the honorary blokes who often (wrongly) identify themselves as feminists but have no problem shitting on the younger women leaders emerging around them. These women are afraid the next generation will make them redundant or are simply jealous of their future success and somehow resentful of the fact that they may have faced fewer obstacles to get to the top than they did. Isn’t that the point?!
I am sad that this behaviour, in collaboration with slow moving and largely male dominated institutions like the corporate world, government and let’s not forget religion, has spawned a generation of women (largely gen x and Y) who actively disassociate themselves from the term feminism in the belief that it isolates them from men and leadership opportunities.
Luckily, there are many inspiring, hard-working and generous real feminists out there who attempt to balance the ledger (often these people are men too!) through real action rather than words.
Feminism has not failed, it’s a work in progress and the responsibility of all to keep it ticking along.
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Good comment. I wonder if Mama Mia ever comments about women in situations of oppression in other parts of the globe, and if so, how often? I’m not saying this blog ignores such topics, only that I’ve never seen posts of this type and I’m curious to know. I suspect MF is more interested in such true feminist concerns as what Kate Middleton is wearing to the wedding. If she hasn’t blogged on that already, you can be sure she will. (Theatrical Sigh)
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PS. Should have done my research. I see she’s started already. http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/11/kate-middleton.html/comment-page-1#comment-229204
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Yes this sort of stuff does bother me somewhat… a lot. I guess it’s part of the media machine and Mia seems to have a genuine interest in this stuff which is fine. I don’t. I would rather debate an interesting topic like this anyday. You may have noticed as soon as the best and worst gets posted every week that is where the commenters go. Such is life I guess and to each their own.
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I’ve seen this blog cover such topics, fistula hospitals springs to mind as a post that came up. But overall this website does what it is supposed to do – provide a mix of topics. That’s why I come here, I don’t want too much heavy feminist stuff. If I want serous feminist discussion I go to feministing.com or some of the other many feminist websites out there. It’s like how some people complain there isn’t enough news on here. Go to a news website. You can be a feminist and not want to read or blog about it all the time, nothing wrong with being interested in Kate Middleton’s outfit then going off to another site for feminism fix. It seems some people want this blog to be a one stop shop for all their website needs, some people need explore some other blogs and build a mix that suits their interests.
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That is what keeps me coming back. I can do without what I view as frivolous, superficial garbage, but I keep an eye out for the more serious discussions.
Whatever floats people’s boats is ok with me, a lot of people seem to get a big kick out of it. Dresses and celebrity worship is not my cup of tea though. Just sayin’.
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I enjoy the serious discussions more as well and sure I wish there were more but I get it has to be a mix, I give best and worst a miss as well as frockwatch most of the time but some people love those. I have no problem with people preferring certain types of posts and saying so, just when they get annoyed that the website doesn’t cater more to them. If the site is lacking in fashion/gossip/news/serious topics for you or whatever then there are tons of other great sites out there.
I always enjoy a good serious topic but I think the mix is right for what the site is supposed to be. I don’t think this site lacks in feminism topics, maybe it doesn’t often have a ‘serious’ feminism discussion but it’s decidedly pro-women and every day there is a topic of import to women, like today’s topic of PND.
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I’m happy for there to be a mix. I know this site isn’t just here to cater to my interests. I pick and choose what I read and in general it is only maybe one or two topics a week that pique my interest. That’s all fine.
I’m not a mother, so I knew from the get-go that I wouldn’t be into everything that is posted here as a lot of it is skewed towards mothers.
I’m grateful for what I get, even though at times I wish there was more. I’m not meaning to diss the site. It can’t be everything to everyone and I know that.
What I do get annoyed at is when there is a serious discussion being generated, another post is put up and the discussion gets diverted over there to something I’m just not into at all. That’s just me being selfish because nobody wants to engage with me anymore, they would rather talk about make-up and how long someone’s hair should be.
I’m serious about me being selfish. I know that people have varied interests and sometimes they wanna get superficial, I don’t like it, but I get it.
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Also, I am feminist but I don’t at all like some strands of feminism which put all the blame on men and alienate men.
Instead men and women should be working together for the good of everybody instead of pissing each other off.
Many many MANY men do support equal rights and opportunities for women but when they hear ‘men are to blame for this, men are to blame for that’ they get pissed off (and rightly so) which doesn’t help anyone.
The focus should be on how can we all work together to make things better instead of the finger pointing blame game.
xxx
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Well said, Me !
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I went to the debate in Melbourne.
To be honest yes/no approach to the topic ‘has feminism failed’ is nothing short of absurd. A number of the speakers themselves said they thought it was simplistic and divisive and that instead the focus should be on celebrating and recognising what has been achieved and be looking forward to what still needs to be done.
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I was at the debate too and I thought the general standard of the speakers was extremely poor, not to mention the topic and the lack of decent rebuttal…
But Monica’s argument is much better written down than it was spoken and I think it works well as an article.
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I thought it was pretty poor too. There were one or two good speakers but the two on opposing teams who were playing out their personal vendettas against each other was just pathetic.
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I totally agree! I was disappointed because I really wanted to see an engaging debate and instead we got this silly whingeing… I’m enjoying the Mamamia debate a lot more!
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Thank you for this wonderful article, from an out and proud feminist.
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“Saying that feminism has failed is short-sighted and simplistic, because it misunderstands and underestimates both feminism and the problems feminism is seeking to solve.”
I love this paragraph. Feminism, like anything that relates to people, can’t be wrapped up in a nice little due-date specific package nor should it be. This is not something we’ll have to hand in or be graded on, is it really something we even can pass or fail?
There will ALWAYS be more to achieve, different battles to fight, new frontiers to explore and after all – “A woman’s work is never done”
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Bradley, do you have a point??
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Yes. I’ve indicated that I support feminism and that I don’t support extremists within the movement.
For that matter, I don’t support extreme elements in any movement, association or congregation.
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Bradley
There are 20+ matches on this page for “Bradley” and I still don’t know whether you think feminism has failed or believe it is relevant to you.
This is a statement, not a question.
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I don’t believe that feminism has failed. I believe that some elements have failed the feminist movement as certain elements fail every movement. Yes, I find feminism relevant to my life and the relationships that I have with all people.
That, too, is a statement.
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Bradley, I always find your posts at once enlightening AND frustrating. I truly appreciate your comments and insights here on MM, as well as your presence even though I don’t always agree with you. You provide what I see as a typical male response, but then at times completely atypical. I love this because it reminds me that no-one and no situation is ever black and white and that the opinions of others do matter if only so people know what sort of minds they have to go about changing if that is indeed what needs to happen.
You remind me of my dad in some ways. We have had many a fiery debate and he has resorted to calling me a man-hater because of the views I express. I wouldn’t call myself that, but he sees things differently and that will probably never change.
I guess i just want to say that I appreciate your views in as much as they contribute to the context of the debate. I hope that makes sense.
For the record I completely agree with this article. Feminism is a huge deal for me, I am single and childless, I run my own business, I make my own decisions and nobody tries to tell me how to run my life. I think this would be a hell of a lot more difficult were it not for the suffragettes, and the early feminist movements. I thank the universe for the women who have paved the way for people like me to not be beholden to any man or any set course of life.
Yesterday I started reading “Are Men Necessary?”, so I find it amazing that this article appeared today. Very timely.
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Yos, thank you for your comments.
I completely agree with your statement that no woman should ever be beholden to any man or any set course of life and yes, all of our opinions matter.
Yes, we should all be free to make our own decisions regardless of gender.
In regard to the issue of feminism, perhaps I should have simply said that I’m concerned by some extreme elements of the feminist movement and left it at that. But that’s is how things run. Unless you qualify every word, what one believes to be a molehill will become someone else’s mountain. Best stop there. I’ll be hung out to dry yet again.
To be honest, sometimes I frustrate myself with what I post.
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Thanks Bradley.
I’ve got no problem with what you said about “extremist feminists” if that has been your experience. Like I said, my dad sees me that way and I’m sure a lot of others might if I were allowed an audience to rant to. Also as Shannon pointed out below, there are plenty of sub categories of feminism many of them with opposing views or what some might see as extremist agendas.
From my perspective, I like the concept of feminism in it’s most simple form. Being “for women”. That is where I’m coming from. I think that is where this article is aimed at too.
I know what you mean about being misunderstood. It is very difficult to be succinct and concise while trying to minimise misinterpretation. I understand where the people who replied to your comment are coming from too and support their right to rebutt you or try to gain a clarification from you. For my part I took your comment as it was and I think I understood it’s context in the way that I can see why my dad thinks Im a man hater. Again I hope this makes sense. It’s not meant to patronise.
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Growing up and even in my 20’s it was only on a subliminal level that I felt the effects of being discriminated against because of my gender. And there was definitely a time when I felt feminism wasn’t directly relevant to me.
I come from three generations of single mothers and there was never any expectation I find a man or have children to make me whole. Quite the opposite in fact. I was taught to by my family and my school to value autonomy and independence. To experience the world, all it could offer and see as much of life as possible. And to know no gender-based limits whatsoever.
For better or worse, the full-force of inequality only hit me once I had my first child. I am a little embarrassed about that. I would call myself a late onset feminist.
Whenever I read / hear terms such as “feminism has failed” etc it seems to be a lazy way of saying “we are unhappy” and / or “our choices are still limited”.
I agree with Monica to say so is inflammatory and simplistic. But personally, what I find most infuriating when it is bandied about is the suggestion of blame and its tone of helplessness. Blame? Hows that for ungrateful!
Ironic when women fight so hard to be recognised and acknowledged for what they do…
Monica mentions certain freedoms we now (and to a certain extent, should) take for granted. Yet have we come so far that we cannot even remember the qualities embodied by those who contributed to change?
I don’t think feminism is a destination. If you want change, garner those qualities. I don’t believe (cue generalisation) those of our demographic have to do a whole lot to effect change in our tiny ways. Inform yourself and discuss and debate with those around you. Question and challenge where you can. It’s not pioneer or nothing. Surely this is more useful than banging on about where we “aren’t”.
The suffragettes, for example, did not elicit change by lying about and lamenting previous generations whom they felt had failed them….
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Feminism hasn’t failed, it has been a great success – an aggressive stance needed to be taken to effect the dramatic changes that it needed to, we needed ‘radicals’.
Feminism in its current form has brought us this far – now it needs to be rebranded, it needs a new vision, and a new culture to engage the GenY and GenZ girls. Females are now in a position to negotiate, our opinions are heard – we no longer need to ram them down peoples throats.
Different times call for different measures – Feminism has become a bit of a dirty word, or in a lot of cases a word that the younger generations of women don’t identify with – it just needs to be repositioned.
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Even with the tremendous achievements of the women’s movement, I think we still live in a patriarchal society and we shouldn’t stop pushing on to establish true equaliy between the genders.
Motherhood is a classic example of this. How many men consider taking a few years off work to care for and raise their children?
How many women are criticised for using childcare when they return to work without a thought of the father of the child stepping up to care for the baby while mum is back at work?
What about the fact that even if mothers return to work they still bear the majority of the household responsibilities or, if they can afford to do so, they often contract this work out to other women in the form of housecleaners? This means men are not taking on more work and creating an equal division in a house or family, but rather men are still behaving the same way and women are taking on more or outsourcing to other women.
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I have always considered myself to be a feminist, and proud of it too! I have the opportunity to follow my calling as a priest only because other brave feminists before me fought for my rights. It makes me sad when well educated women think that feminism is ‘over’, the battle is won. It will not be over until no one is discriminated against because of their gender. It makes me sad when ignorant people think that there is ‘one size fits all’ feminism, that we somehow blame men for everything. Umm, nope. I don’t blame men, I blame patriachal systems which have been enabled by men AND women for many many years. It makes me sad when people think I can’t be a Christian feminist — I can and I follow a long tradition of feminist Christians, some male, some female. It makes me sad when people think that just because I’m a feminist means that I don’t care about men’s rights too. I do, but that is a different story and a different matter. THat’s like saying that because I support Christianity I’m against other religions. No. Some Christians are, yes. Other’s aren’t. One does not nessecarily coincide with the other!
I haven’t expressed myself very well here, I’m sorry. It’s something I feel so passionately about and when I see some of the comments below I get really upset. I’m not going to go into them because that’s not the point but I just wish that none of this was nessecary!
By the way, the latest term for ‘feminist’ is ‘womanist’, as supported by black communities who feel that ‘feminist is a white middle class term. I’d like to call myself a womanist but I’m not quite comfortable with the change just yet. I will though!
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I enjoyed this article very much – some of my very favourite units at Uni were w omen’s/feminism units and I adored them – the early feminists fought SO hard for us, we should always look back and give thanks, and the best way to do that is to keep it going!
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Some feminists scare the crap out of me. I’ve encountered street gangs that are less frightening.
At least with the street gang, you know that they want to bash the hell out of you because you found yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The scary feminist wants to beat the crap out of your because you’re male and you have to pay for centuries of treating women like second class citizens and expecting them to fetch and carry for you whilst you think of them only as objects to gratify you sexually….you bastards !
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Bradley, many movements, causes, parties and whatever other organisation you can think of have it’s share of extremists. There are feminists out there with views outside of the mainstream of other feminists. We don’t all speak for each other and we don’t all agree on everything. I’ve met feminists who I disagree strongly with on many different points.
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I don’t disagree with you.
In fact, I supported your comment about extremists in the feminist movement before you replied to my original comment in my original comment.
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I can’t tell whether you are taking the piss or not Bradley. If you’re not, what’s so scary about someone being angry with you? Do you honestly believe that a bunch of feminists is going to beat the crap out of you?
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Are you saying that you find it acceptable to be angry with a complete stranger based wholy and solely upon gender ?
Personally, I find the angry feminist and the angry misogynist equally scary.
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Of course I don’t find it acceptable. I also don’t find it acceptable that when I go into my local pub to buy a bottle of wine and am often the only woman in there, the conversation largely stops besides the odd offensive comment and of course the leering. I actually find that a bit scary.
I agree to a point about the angry feminist/angry misogynist comment, but only to a point, as I know I have much more reason to fear the angry misogynist.
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“angry feminist and the angry misogynist”
If you really see those as equivalents, then there is a problem.
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I should qualify my statement, shouldn’t I ?
I find the angry “extremist” feminist and the angry misogynist equally scary.
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Bradley,
I believe you are confused somewhat. The technical term for `man hater` or one who hates men/males is misandrist. Use it next time instead of `feminist` which means in support of women/femininity.
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I’m not confused, I just haven’t heard of this particular word before.
However, in future posts I shall endeavour to place the word “extremist” before the word “feminist” to qualify my comment should I not use the word “misandrist”.
I realise that I have to qualify every single comment and nuance, otherwise I’ll get into trouble.
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I think a lot of people just take issue with the (often unjustified) negative connotations that come with the word “feminist” because for them, feminism is a positive movement that doesn’t involve hating men at all (and other like negative associations). To be afforded such negative labels when one identifies as a feminist is just another way of being dis-empowered as a woman. =) Though I personally interpreted your comment to be about extremists.
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Thank you, Shannon. Yes my comments have been directed at the extreme elements of the feminist movement.
I am not anti the feminist movement.
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Stands and Cheers! I however did not interpret Bradley’s remarks as he indicates he meant it.
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To be fair, I’d read his other posts before this one, and his other posts indicated that he wasn’t anti-feminist =) If I had read this post before his others, I may have had a different interpretation.
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Again, I promise to qualify all future comments.
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Well said Ms Butlertron
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I’m a feminist, and I’m not angry. I do however want continued social change. Does that make me scary too?
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If you are an extremist feminist, then yes I find you scary. I find extremists pushing any point scary.
However, I don’t find feminists or the basic premise of the movement to exact social change and equality between genders the least bit intimidating.
I sure hope that I’ve qualified my comment. I’d hate for anything to be misconstrued and taken out of context. It just leads to another tongue lashing.
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I am saying this genuinely and not with snark. Maybe it’s in the delivery? If this happens to you a lot, maybe it is worth looking at why.
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Perhaps it’s the way that some people read ?
If only this was a sound-blog. Sometimes it’s all about where the reader hears in the intonations of the sentence in their mind.
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A very true statement however, each one of us can only control what we write or how we phrase our words, so the instead of trying to get others to read differently it may be less of a headache to look at posting differently?
(and like Frankie there is no snark intented)
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I’ve heard this argument before and I have to say I have never met this “scary extremist feminist” you speak of.
I don’t know any women who really want to “beat the crap out of” all men.
I always thought feminism was the belief that women and men are EQUAL and that women deserve to be treated EQUALLY to men (in terms of the vote, work, pay, etc).
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Some people just see what they want.
Can anyone of moderate intelligence understand when some one says Christian extremists or angry Christians then they do not mean all Christians.
Hence the further clarification via the form of words inherent of the language of English.
Being scared of an angry feminist extremist due to the possible effects they have on social policy and the fact they seek to do damage to the happiness of men because of their anti male extremism and anger, is totally viable and the arrogance that anyone feels they can dismiss this point of view is astounding.
It is not the same as being scared of a feminist.
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I don’t think feminism has failed. It’s an exciting time to be a woman – we have a female prime minister for the first time ever, and I was just reading today that Kate Middleton will be the first Queen to have gone to university. Compare that to my mother’s or grandmother’s generation. Times are changing!
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Yes, we have a female PM. And she is proving that it’s not only males who can stuff things up !
Anyone remember Carmen Lawrence and Joan Kirner ? They were tough acts to clean up after !
Kristina Kenneally and Anna Bligh, two female state premiers who took the reins from two male state premiers famous for their failures. KK and AB just took the ball and kept on running !
When you decide to point to a politician as the glowing example and pride of the cause…make sure that it’s a successful one !
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Bradley – I think its more to the point that women are now being given the opportunity. Whether they stuff up or succeed is almost irrelevant, because you run the same risks regardless of gender (as you pointed out).
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I believe it to be fair that everyone is given an equal opportunity to stuff up.
I simply pointed out that I wouldn’t use the five female politicians mentioned as guiding lights or examples of success.
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We don’t exactly have a lot of female politicians to choose from, particularly here in Australia
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Benazir Bhutto, Indira Ghandi, Golda Meir….great leaders and great women !
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I wasn’t entering into a debate about whether Julia Gillard was the best Prime Minister we have ever had, Bradley. I was merely pointing out that we live in a time where a woman can be ELECTED to a position of power, by the choice of the people. I would if if you would not put words in my mouth, stating that I “decided to point to a politician as the glowing example and pride of the cause.”
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I too think that it’s great that women can be elected to the highest position in any land.
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Would Baroness Thatcher do for you?
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The first queen to have gone to university??????
I am genuinely shocked by that!
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Well there hasn’t been a new queen in modern times. The most recent queen grew up way back in the 40s when the world was a very different place.
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I don’t think there’s ever been a king who went to university either.
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Yes you’re right….
My initial reaction is still shock though.
I wonder if she has heard of “mature aged student”??
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You are right, there hasn’t been a new Queen in quite some time, however, I still felt that this was quite an achievement in a relatively short period of time in the scheme of things.
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She’s not going to be Queen. She’s going to be the wife of the King – ie “Princess Catherine.” Like “Prince Phillip”.
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I don’t understand why but I believe if the heir is the King, like in the case of William, his wife becomes Queen. But if the heir is the Queen, like in the case of Elisabeth, then the husband doesn’t become King.
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Yes, she will be Queen. That’s how it works. Prince Phillip can’t be called King because in the monarchy as in life, King is a more powerful title than Queen.
And that is simply a male thing. Just like Mister and Mrs. Very old-fashioned.
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Wow, I didn’t know that. That’s interesting. Especially interesting that it comes up in this thread about feminism.
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Yep, just one of those things that people put down to tradition without thinking about it.
Try and imagine someone today putting in place a system that automatically makes a man’s title more important than a woman performing the same function. I’m actually amazed they were civilised enough to allow a woman to rule the monarchy at all.
Hate to throw a spanner in the works too, but it is no great feat to become Queen, you either have to be of royal blood and that is just purely the luck of who you are born to, or you marry a future king. I hope that Kate’s university degree comes in handy, but it’s not like she will be curing cancer in between royal functions. She may help raise the money that ulitmately leads to a cure for cancer, but that is hopefully what royals are for.
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As someone mentioned, she will be Queen because she will be married to the King, but Prince Philip isn’t called King Philip. The Queen Mother (who died aged 102 or whatever) became Queen when her husband became King (and then after he died, she was known as the Queen Mother).
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They actually said her official title will be Princess William of Wales.
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yes, but should William become king, she will be queen, that is what we are talking about.
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I know that, but people are talking about her title – is she queen or is king’s consort?
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Good point Muffinbuns; female Prime Minister, State Ministers, Governor, Governor-General…just incredible. And…(yep, I’m actually going to include this one as well) Australia’s first saint is female!
Not only do Australian women have much to celebrate, but because of all these very successful PEOPLE men have much to celebrate too.
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I think it’s ridiculous to say feminism has failed. In this country young women my age can say we want a career and not be laughed at. We can say we want a husband and family. We can say we want whatever we can imagine and its ok. Because of feminism. That’s what feminism is about to me. It’s not about living one way or another based on how someone else wants you to, it’s about having choices available to you so you can spend your life doing whatever it is that makes you happy.
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Well said Emma J, you are spot on.
People still have this idea that you’re no a good feminist if you choose to do one thing, or if you end up at home with the kids and they turn on feminism because they view feminism as having turned on them because they believe that to be a feminist you have to have a career or whatever.
You don’t HAVE TO do anything, but you can CHOOSE TO do or be anything you want thanks to feminism.
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Watch ‘Mad Men’, considered to be a very accurate portrayal of the life of men and women in the 60′s. Consider the vast increase in choices and opportunities for women since then, and the massive increase in empowerment of women, both in the workplace and in relationships, and then tell me if feminism has ‘failed’.
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True. I don’t know how I’d go with my doctor telling me not to be a slut when I went in for birth control.
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I’m not sure Mad Men is “a very accurate portrayal of the life of men and women in the 60′s”. it looks pretty stylised to me
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I find mad men a bit depressing because of how much HASN’T changed.
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Agree. I worked in an office with men like that – only five years ago. Ugh!
They were engineers and one of them was a woman. All us ‘girls’ who did the typing were on the tea-room washing up roster…and so was the one woman engineer. Solely because of her gender.
Yes, this is only FIVE years ago. Yes we were called ‘girls’ – even though I was 45 at the time. And yes…we had to clean up the tea room and wash up the men’s cups.
Don’t tell me I could have left etc….I was a single mother, we live in a small country town…and I was grateful to be getting a pay packet every week to pay my rent.
The sexist attitudes irked me no end…so I left and now have a Bachelor Degree and will NEVER work in a place like that again. Hooray for choices (aka feminism)!
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Waitressing. Most restaurants kitchens are male dominated and by chauvinist pigs (don’t ark up those who do work in kitchens/know a guy who does and ins’t a pig. I know there are some good ones). The head chef at one of my old workplaces used to get everyone else to do his job and lock himself in the office and watch porn all day, showing his favourite bits to select other male workers who were part of the boys club.
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OMG that’s disgusting!
I have waitressed too and witnessed exactly what you are talking about – porn included. What is it with chefs? Some seem to think the ability to cook a steak is a mandate for being a complete pig.
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Just five years ago? Holy crap.
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I’m a female engineer and yes this can still happen. I have given the death stare to one colleague who wanted me to pack the dishwasher for him.
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Yes,seriously five years ago.
I worked in offices with attitudes like that 25 years ago – complete with mandatory groping at the photocopier (and if we objected – we were called stuck up and bad sports!)
I returned to the workforce after having my sons…thinking things may be a little different….ha ha ha ha – maybe in Sydney, Melbourne and the like.
However, I am here – generic small country town many of you drive through on your way to sunny summertime holiday destination. Don’t live here and expect respect and equality in the office…it’s still 1965
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Oh me too – I work in academia, and in may ways its exactly the same, only a little less out in the open (not always though!). The misogyny is so entrenched its virtually invisible, and in fact my female friends and I often talk about how talking about it at all is often quite hard because you tend to sound like a complete lunatic – its all so ephemeral, but with very concrete implications. Sigh.
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oh, that’s sad i’m hoping to go into academia!
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Maybe you are correct but it is impossible to tell from your comment because you fail to give any examples that might help us to judge your workplace. Evidence, it’s called.
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I can see why you would say that Lynden, but for the women here we don’t need examples. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that all of us have experienced sexism first-hand. We know the sort of things femmo and the others are referring to.
That’s not to say that you aren’t entitled to examples, so let me list some of the things I had to put up with in the workplace from when I was 17.
- random leering
- being asked to make the boss a cup of tea when my job description was a checkout operator
- customers talking to my chest
- the stupid blouse that I had to wear while waitressing while the guys got to wear polo shirts
- suggestive lewd comments from chefs ; anything to do with carrying a jug of milk, having to handle a cucumber or salami stick etc
- being told I must be premenstrual if I lost my cool
…that’s just for starters.
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I have had many debates about whether feminism is now redundant, whether it has gone “too far” (in the words of a male friend of mine) or if it has “failed”.
To answer that question, I simply look at the differences between my mother and I. She was raised in the 50s, in a very male-centric household. She still respects the opinions of men more highly than those of women. She married because she was told she should, although she has never been happy in her marriage and never wanted to get married. She quit her job when she had kids and has never gone back to work, although she regrets it daily and often talks about how her life has always been missing that outlet. She will argue with you for hours all the reasons why men are more capable at most jobs than women, and dont get me started on her “a woman cant run a country as well as a man” speech when Julia Gillard took over the labour party. She has accepted her place as being below her husband and her even her son, refuses to stand up to them and does whatever they say.
I, on the other hand, went to Uni and started a career that I continued after I had my children. I didnt get married when my kids were born, and noone thought less of me for it. I am an equal in my relationship, and have as much say in things as my partner does. I have no qualms about disagreeing with my father, my brother or my male friends.
I dont understand how, in looking at the different behaviour, treatment and views of my mother and I, who are only 35 years apart, you can still say that feminism has failed or is redundant.
As for the whole “has feminism gone too far” thing, dont even get me started. That is a whole other debate.
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Please call your husband your husband instead of your partner, please. I’m sure that he is extremely proud and honoured to call you his wife.
The word partner is for non-married personnel. Even then, I can’t stand the word. But you already knew that from previous comments. It gets up my nose even more than the term de-facto.
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Please improve your reading skills please.
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Point taken. I did misread the line that I commented on.
However, I adhere to the sentiments expressed in my misguided comment.
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Yes, while we are still in the stage where marriage relationships have to be between a man & a woman, we have moved past the stage where man/woman relationships have to be marriages.
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Write to the PM and demand that she support this bill.
I did !
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Personnel??
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Humour. Flippant comment.
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If he was my Husband I would call him that, only we haven’t gotten married, hence “I didnt get married when my kids were born”.
So I fit under the “unmarried personnel” you speak of
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Just as a side note, I call my husband my partner and husband pretty much interchangeably. When my gay friends are legally allowed to have husbands and wives, then I will be more comfortable with the term.
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Write to Julia Gillard and express your view. I have. However, I do understand that our first female PM isn’t actually exciting about supporting this according to media reports.
I know…don’t rely on the media to report fairly !
Whatever I say is wrong !
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I’m not a chauvinist, and support the general ideals of most (non-radical) feminism, but, as a man, I’ve got to wonder if the feminist movement isn’t somewhat alienating itself from half the population (i.e. men) with comments such as:
“the heart of all feminist activity is a simple desire to create a better, more just world for women”
Surely gender equality across all aspects of life makes for a better and more just world for EVERYONE, not just women. I understand that the “for women” at the end of that statement focusses your attention on your particular agenda (so that is not mistaken for, say, poverty reduction), but it also has the potential to amplify the gender division that feminism, in a general sense, tries to overcome.
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Gender equality is ultimately in the interests of all humans, because rigid gender roles mean less choice and less freedom for ALL. Men have also gained much from the loosening up of traditional family and work roles, for instance, with many gaining nourishment and meaning from a fuller engagement with the joys of fatherhood. Feminism was important in confronting a rigid older system, but now the movement needs to become inclusive, engaging more constructively and enthusiastically with men as well as women. A start might be by junking the word “feminism” and replacing it with “the movement for gender equality”. The ‘F” word has served its purpose and now only spells divisiveness – the very word implies that the only people who count on this planet are women. Expressions of “feminism” are too often accompanied by an implicit moral righteousness that is unhelpfully reductive, simple-minded and sometimes essentialist (ie. it defines women according to a stereotyped, “essential” nature – morally good, victims, etc.).
My one cavil with Anon’s comment is that it would have more impact had a real name been attached. Why are men now so cowed that they are frightened to sign an opinion on gender politics that is unashamedly from a male perspective? What’s the point of having freedom of speech if we don’t use it?
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Lynden, thanks for the constructive feedback (unlike Josie and Lulu below). And yes I agree that a comment would have more gravitas with a name attched, but until the conversation can be had in a mature manner, without mens thoughts on the topic automatically assumed to be invalid (see Josie and and Lulu), then I’d rather personnally receives that ridicule. In exactly the same manner, I don’t for a second condone Bradley’s fairly chidish attempt at debate either.
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How about the word ‘Humanist’ – as in, a person who believes and works towards equality and opportunity for all. Men, women and…whatever.
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My problem… I see the words ‘I’m not a chauvinist…’ and think… PIG! Sorry, I just do.
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I see comments like this and think “feminazi”.
Sorry, I just do.
Are we equally wrong or is one of us a little less wrong >
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‘I’m not a chauvinist…’
Is a bit like ‘I’m not a racist but …’
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Read the post Lulu. I think you’ll find I have a pretty good understanding of the issues at hand, and present a fairly balanced viewrpoint. My argument wasn’t anti-feminism, but simply for a more inclusive approach to it so that it may be more palettable to all – the gender equality that Lynden Barber articulated in their first paragraph.
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Yes, thanks for calling the very moderate and fair-minded commenter Anon a “pig” and bolstering the prejudices of all who cast feminism as an excuse for bigotry, extremist posturing and ideological blindness. Really helpful. Well done.
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Anon, I don’t think you read *my* post – it was short & contained none of the accusations you’re defending yourself against. It was about the fact that when someone says “I’m not a / an ______ but … “, they generally mean something quite different. Even when women say “I’m not a feminist but …”, they tend to follow it with something which is supportive of some aspect / goal of feminism.
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Well reading Anon’s comment to the end, it is perfectly clear that he doesn’t say anything remotely chauvinistic (and interestingly, none of the other commenters accuse him of doing so). So your point is? Oh that’s right, you get some perverse kick out of implying that a random man who seems to have strayed onto a female-centric website is akin to a pig. Humanity FAIL
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Constructive comment Josie. Thank you for your valuable input. All I’ve learnt that if a man tries to express a balanced view on feminism (not anti-feminist, not chauvinistic) and is constructively critical, he deserves ridicule or to be dismissed. Thank you.
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Sometimes the ridicule comes from other men.
I do not support your line that my comments in this debate have been childish. You offered no constructive criticism of my thoughts, so in affect you are guilty of what you accuse Josie of.
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I can understand your sentiment, Anon, however you need to appreciate that within the broad umbrella of feminism there are many different sub-categories – egalitarian, liberal, marxist just to name a few, each with their own different values, aims, ideologies etc. And each individual feminist in each of those sub-categories is going to have slightly different approaches to feminism.
So it is hard to say that feminism is about alienating women from men. For some feminists, perhaps that is what they would like, but I dare say for most that is not at all the case.
This isn’t about making a world that is better for women (that is, better for women than it is for men) but rather about addressing the issue that, generally speaking, the world for women is not as good as the world for men. On average, women receive a lower pay-grade than men doing the same job. Men who sleep around are “typical bachelors” but women who sleep around are “sluts”. When a woman says she has been raped, oft people respond with questions such as, “but what was she wearing/doing to encourage such behaviour?”
These same limitations are not faced by men.
Therefore, for me and many other feminists, I would interpret the quote you have mentioned as saying that it is about a desire to create a world better than the one women currently experience, thus making our world of equal quality to that of the world experienced by men.
As Lynden Barber noted above, gender equality it is ultimately in the interests of everyone.
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I suspect I wasn’t clear. I didn’t for a moment try to say that feminism is “about” alienating men, or attempting to, but simlpy that comments like the one I quoted have the ability to inadvertently alienate a particular group. I believe that a more inclusive approach to gender equality will be far more successful, and on this I think we agree.
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I suspect that men that need to have the need for feminism ‘explained’ (for want of a better phrase) won’t be found reading this blog. We need to engage the greater public in this area to help dispel the myths etc. My husband works in a mainly male workplace and some of the stories he comes home with about his colleagues aren’t pleasant; hiding money from the wife, trying to cheat the ex out of child support, barely talking to the wife etc. There’s still a lot of work to be done…
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…and there are plenty of horror stories to be told about women, Faybian. Enough of looking at women collectively as the equivalent of Mother Superior, while males, collectively, are the Devil. Apart from anything else, it’s unintelligent. There are good and bad in both genders. Collectively we add up to humanity – a highly complex endeavour. Any other view is simple-minded (not to mention obnoxious).
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I’m a nurse, so I guess I would know what a female dominated workplace is like. The saying goes that ‘nurses eat their young’, so please don’t accuse me of being unintelligent or putting women on a pedestal. I was merely commenting on a part of this blog that I felt was relevant. For the record I know some great men (including my husband) and some horrible women and vice versa.
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I totally agree with you anon.
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Feminism today, ie third wave feminism, is about choice.
We now have the choice to get a tertiary education. We now have the choice to work after marriage (I still can’t believe female public servants were sacked once they married!!!). We now have the choice to have children and control our fertility. We now have the choice to be working mothers or stay at home mothers or any other combination of work and parenting.
It’s so true what Jo M below says about women today distancing themselves from feminism. Middle-class women in western society simply take these things for granted. It’s hard to believe these options weren’t available to our mothers and grandmothers. But we must remember, there are still so many women in the world who don’t have access to these fundamentals. And of course we are still fighting against things like domestic violence and sexual assault in the developed world, but I do think we’ve come along way since “conjugal rights” were abolished.
If it ever comes up in conversation I don’t shy away from calling myself a feminist. I usually follow this up with “I’d like to think you are too, considering feminism is about equality of the sexes”. It usually opens up the discussion and the eyes of many men who might’ve had a preconceived notion of what a feminist looks and acts like.
On a related note, I saw an amazing episode of Oprah yesterday which discussed Half the Sky, a book that looks at three major issues women face in the world today: sex trafficking and forced prostitution; gender-based violence including honor killings and mass rape; maternal mortality.
They also discussed The Girl Effect which gave me goosebumps when I saw the ad:
http://www.girleffect.org/video
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This is actually the original Girl Effect clip I saw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIvmE4_KMNw
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Have that book, it’s well researched and an interesting read. It makes you realize what we take for granted
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I’m presenting a paper tomorrow afternoon on Catwoman and the third wave of feminism, so quite a timely post…
Kathleen Rowe calls our generation, post-1992-ish, the generation of “I’m not a feminist, but.” Disavowing a social movement intended to benefit them lets young women be unlike their mothers, and stamp emphatically that they want different things. Feminism seems too extreme, too distant. We agree with the associated principles, like equal work for equal pay, but aren’t interested in the label, and all the stereotypes that come with it.
Feminism is still alive, I think: the third wave, circa the nineties called for personal empowerment, an ability to take on things previously considered “unfeminine” (eg anger and outspokenness), etc. What it lacks is unified purpose. I agree that second wave feminism is overly essentialist and concerned with white middle class women, leaving little room for lesbians, bisexuals, transgender women, those of other races. But, unified purpose is important if you want to make a change. I think all the issues of the third wave are still pertinent and like I said, alive in some form.
Personally? I would call myself a post-feminist. I’ve taken bits from feminism traditionally, bits from elsewhere that I like, even some drips and drabs from patriarchy, and formed them into some kind of strange textually-informed bricolage of a stance, moulded as much by Gloria Steinem and Hilary Clinton as Carrie Bradshaw. I read Jezebel, but I like to bake and look after my brothers. I’m not into being as good as men, I simply want to be empowered within myself (something borrowed from the third wave). I find the label ‘feminist’ too prescriptive, hence I reject it, even if I like some of the things it stands for.
So, if feminism is to stay alive and meaningful, we need to split it from previous generations, and what they thought was good for us, or at least from the perception that this is what feminism does. It’s not the movement young women are rejecting, it’s the notion that they should take up something so heavily associated with the past, and a different set of ideals and concerns. Also, most women don’t want to hate men, though sometimes, we really do, and that has become one of the connotations.
(edit- my working definition for ‘personal empowerment’ here is, very roughly, to feel as if you, as an individual, have a voice and worth beyond the collective, and feel confident to use that).
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“I would call myself a post-feminist. ”
I’ll be post-feminist when the world is post-sexist.
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Fair enough: I use the prefix “post” here because like the term postmodernism suggests of our relationship with modernism, it does not just come after and certainly does not represent a total break, it instead recognises that we live in a world highly influenced by and built on feminism. It’s another version, not completely new.
I would actually argue that you could label the world post-sexist. Sexism is no longer deemed acceptable, but we live in a society built upon, and informed by it. Post-sexist would actually be a perfect theoretical description for the weird kind of sexist-but-not-sexist limbo in which a lot of society currently resides.
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The world isn’t post sexist though. Large parts of it are still operating in a very patriarchal/ misogynist manner.
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Sigh. But that’s my point above: yes, the world operates in that manner still, but we deem it unacceptable. Hence, sexism no longer quite describes what we’re experiencing – affixing the prefix (try say that five times fast…) ‘post’ to it suggests another social condition, something still connected yet not quite the same.
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There is no reason that reading Jezebel and liking to bake should be mutually exclusive.
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No, they shouldn’t be: but, if you choose to embrace traditionalist notions of feminism, you can’t do anything that makes you seem like you might be even vaguely pro-patriarchy or into traditional feminine ideals. On the other hand, if you choose to embrace more modern notions, you have to reject traditionalist feminism of the sort Jezebel usually works through.
I don’t suggest that the two are problematic in binary in any other way than when trying to find a form of feminism that even vaguely suits you, given that the term has become so completely prescriptive. I’m speaking as a 20-something year old who feels restricted by the term, and feels like it’s not something that at all describes who I am, even though my world is shaped by it.
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I do not think feminism has failed.
I have a right to vote, where I wouldn’t have before. I am pursuing a university education and this was once unheard of.
I am not terrified of dying unmarried, and my main goal in life is not to be married and spend my days working for my children and husband.
Let me be clear – any woman who chooses to do that is well within her rights to do so, and I respect that. But that life is not for me and thanks to feminism, I have a right to choose other life priorities.
Do feminists still have work to do? Yes. But it’s not in vain and it hasn’t been a failure. Why give up? If the first and second wave feminists had given up when shit got tough, I wouldn’t be the woman I am today.
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Well said Shannon!
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Exactly what I was going to post. ITA Shannon.
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