Do You Like This Story?

Until last week when Iceland managed to paralyse the travel plans of most of the world with one little cloud, we never heard much from that particular country. But it’s a pretty fascinating place and not just because it is home to the woman who wore a dying swan to the Oscars.  For starters, did you know that Iceland’s Prime Minister is the world’s only openly lesbian head of state? Or that they’ve just banned strip clubs and are in the process of closing down their sex industry?

It would seem Iceland may be the most female-friendly country on the planet. A shame then that its population is only 320,000 people.

The Guardian reports….

According to Icelandic police, 100 foreign women travel to the country annually to work in strip clubs. It is unclear whether the women are trafficked, but feminists say it is telling that as the stripping industry has grown, the number of Icelandic women wishing to work in it has not. Supporters of the bill say that some of the clubs are a front for prostitution – and that many of the women work there because of drug abuse and poverty rather than free choice. I have visited a strip club in Reykjavik and observed the women. None of them looked happy in their work.

So how has Iceland managed it? To start with, it has a strong women’s movement and a high number of female politicans. Almost half the parliamentarians are female and it was ranked fourth out of 130 countries on the international gender gap index (behind Norway, Finland and Sweden). All four of these Scandinavian countries have, to some degree, criminalised the purchase of sex (legislation that the UK will adopt on 1 April). “Once you break past the glass ceiling and have more than one third of female politicians,” says Halldórsdóttir, “something changes. Feminist energy seems to permeate everything.”

iceland 177x236 First? Air travel. Next? Iceland shuts down the sex industry.

Johanna Sigurdardottir, prime minister of Iceland

Johanna Sigurðardottir is Iceland’s first female and the world’s first openly lesbian head of state. Guðrún Jónsdóttir of Stígamót, an organisation based in Reykjavik that campaigns against sexual violence, says she has enjoyed the support of Prime Minister Johanna Sigurðardottir for their campaigns against rape and domestic violence: “Johanna is a great feminist in that she challenges the men in her party and refuses to let them oppress her.”

Then there is the fact that feminists in Iceland appear to be entirely united in opposition to prostitution, unlike the UK where heated debates rage over whether prostitution and lapdancing are empowering or degrading to women. There is also public support: the ban on commercial sexual activity is not only supported by feminists but also much of the population. A 2007 poll found that 82% of women and 57% of men support the criminalisation of paying for sex – either in brothels or lapdance clubs – and fewer than 10% of Icelanders were opposed.

Jónsdóttir says the ban could mean the death of the sex industry. “Last year we passed a law against the purchase of sex, recently introduced an action plan on trafficking of women, and now we have shut down the strip clubs. The Nordic countries are leading the way on women’s equality, recognising women as equal citizens rather than commodities for sale.”

Strip club owners are, not surprisingly, furious about the new law. One gave an interview to a local newspaper in which he likened Iceland’s approach to that of a country such as Saudi Arabia, where it is not permitted to see any part of a woman’s body in public. “I have reached the age where I’m not sure whether I want to bother with this hassle any more,” he said.

Janice Raymond, a director of Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, hopes that all sex industry profiteers feel the same way, and believes the new law will pave the way for governments in other countries to follow suit. “What a victory, not only for the Icelanders but for everyone worldwide who repudiates the sexual exploitation of women,” she says.

Jónsdóttir is confident that the law will create a change in attitudes towards women. “I guess the men of Iceland will just have to get used to the idea that women are not for sale.”

stripper 298x300 First? Air travel. Next? Iceland shuts down the sex industry.Iceland is fast becoming a world-leader in feminism. …the Nordic state is the first country in the world to ban stripping and lapdancing for feminist, rather than religious, reasons. Kolbrún Halldórsdóttir, the politician who first proposed the ban, firmly told the national press on Wednesday: “It is not acceptable that women or people in general are a product to be sold.”
You can read the full article here…

How fascinating. I particularly like the line where the reporter notes: : “…feminists in Iceland appear to be entirely united in opposition to prostitution, unlike the UK where heated debates rage over whether prostitution and lapdancing are empowering or degrading to women”

What do you think? I think it is naive to believe that prostitutes and strippers are particularly empowered. I don’t know about shutting down those industries but the consenting adults argument becomes a little hard to make when you look at how many women work in the sex industry due to drug addictions and desperate circumstances rather than a go-girl desire to be empowered….

[Thanks Laura...]

[image]

View more posts on:

Comments

Comment Guidelines : Imagine you’re at a dinner party. Different opinions are welcome but keep it respectful or the host will show you the door. We have zero tolerance for any abuse of our writers, our editorial team or other commenters. So if you’re rude, mean-spirited, snarky, aggressive, defamatory or bitchy, your comment will be deleted (so will any replies to the original comment – so don’t bother arguing with rude people, instead just hit the ‘alert moderator’ button).
And if you’re offensive, you’ll be blacklisted and all your comments will go directly to spam. Remember what Fonzie was like? Cool. That’s how we’re going to be – cool. Have fun and thanks for adding to the conversation…

Use your profile to comment: Or, comment as a guest:
(Max file size is 150kb & jpeg's only - if you need help resizing go here »)

149 Comments so far

  1. Jess

    While a lot of people seem to be focusing this around individual “rights” and “choices”, as illustrated by the decision in Iceland it is a whole lot broader than this. The impacts of the sex industry on society are huge, particularly in terms of women’s position in our world and how women are viewed in general. How can women ever achieve true equality when our bodies can be bought, and men can get almost anything if the price is right? We are already seeing the huge ramifications of a society in which women are continually objectified, with 1 in 4 teenage girls reporting they have experienced unwanted sex (a.k.a sexual assault) and around 1 in 5 women experiencing violence from a partner in their lifetime. What happened to their rights and choices? Yes the issues surrounding why women work in this industry are complex, but as Iceland has clearly done let’s look at the bigger picture and the effect of the sex industry on women and society as a whole.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  2. Apples

    Another thing to keep in mind is that it is easy in Europe/Iceland to hop over to another country. I do agree with their banning strip clubs to remove the trafficking problem for their country, if strip clubs is where this is happening. People can live without strip clubs (ahem, they are not one of the worlds oldest professions for a reason, not needed).

    I hope they dont ban prostitution though because it would be a selfish thing to do to push the problem onto their neighbouring countries rather than take the tougher route of regulating and policing a legal industry.

    I know Iceland is small and in Europe but not sure if you can drive to another country or have to fly, take a ship. I assume however its cheap to do a weekend away to a neighbour country. If Iceland ban prositution the nearest cheapest neighbour country with prostitution will simply set up a new market for Icelanders ducking over for a shag weekend.

    Australia is lucky in this regard that we are one bigarse nation in the middle of nowhere and our nearest neighbour, NZ, is pretty similar to us in attitudes and laws. If Aus makes something illegal thats pretty much it for people. You have to find the Aus based underground industry of whatever is illegal or give up. Only the rich can afford to fly of to another country where whatever we make illegal is legal. In Europe however I think you need to balance the needs of your country against being a good neighbour. Iceland can’t become the wowser country and push all the problems back onto someone else. Just look at Nevada, US. For so long the only state with legal gambling, easy/cheap to get to, everyone just flooded in there and when you cluster a social undesirable activity together then you get trouble. Our sex industry does ok in the well behaved stakes because there is no gang controlling the whole thing, it isnt clustered together in Brothelville. Iceland could turn a part of another country near them into hookerville if they arent careful.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • BS

      You have shown an impressive insight into this whole topic, well done. Is it possible to find your thesis anywhere?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Thanks. I’m a little more articulate here than on the related topic of rape law in another thread (henceforth giving up on trying to tell people rape is a legal term and you either raped someone or you didnt. There may be grey to your personal standards but not to the law. Yes. Or. No. Guilty or. Innocent. There is no ‘sort of’ rape. Sigh.). Sex and women issues seem to het everyone up (thinking back to the Hey Hey).

        This project was for undergrad so it doesn’t get filed anywhere by the uni, just marked out handed back to me so I only have a hard copy. If you are interested in the topic the academic search enginges aren’t free but just googling turns up interesting things (including free academic articles), just be careful to judge the agenda/veracity of your source, its not always as easy as you think.

        Especially the ones that LOOK all posh like The So and So Insitute for Studies. Often they are fronts for people with a specific agenda. Think Tanks are sometimes set up by rich groups/individuals to give polish and gravitas to their thoughts. I.E. The ‘think tanks’ advocating war in Iraq that the govt kept going ‘see the X Institute for International Diplomacy agrees!’ turned out to funded by Bush’s rich mates.

        Iceland and the sex industry is by no means unique. Just do half an hours research on any topic, even one that is more clear cut like drugs, and nothing is as simple as the media would have you believe. Its too hard for them to cover big topics in a million shades of grey in a 150 word leader article.

        : )

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • BS

          Thanks for that Apples.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  3. James

    That’s not good and im not saying this just as a guy, strip clubs, prostitution & porn fufil fantasies, remove those & their would be increase in sexual assault against women

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Lulu

      so few words, so much bullshit.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Angela

        Lulu, so many posts, so much attacking of other peoples opinions

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Apples

      The majority of violence against person (man or woman) is committed by someone you know. For a woman your partner/husband/boyfriend is the most dangerous person you know. Nearly all murders are committed by people who knew their victim, either well or glancingly.

      Men do not go around randomly beating up women. Stranger rape is incredibly rare. The most likely person to rape you, after your partner, is a passing aquaintance like a date or friend. Men are more likely to beat up on men they dont know than a woman.

      Read the news reports of street assaults after the weekend partying, very very rarely will you see a man glass a woman he doesnt know or hasnt had an interaction with, or thump a woman who gets in his way when walking down the street, unlike with men. Men beat the ones they profess to ‘love’.

      What drives men to beat women has been around long, long, long before porn, strip clubs and legal prostitution were even thought of. Violence against women is multi-faceted with a complicated mix of agression, love, jealousy all playing a part rather than ‘i saw some woman get banged by 10 guys in a porno and I have no respect for women’.

      And actually real rates of domestic violence against women are steadily falling as we tackle the reasons around it, despite an increasingly sexualised world. Stranger danger violence against women (and the murder rate – since world war 2 around 300 a year in Aus, the only thing thats changed is our rate of catching people) has barely shifted in 50 years. I think this shows that what drives violence against women has only a partial relationship to society or these rates would be higher. What drives violence against women is largely something else.

      I am all for banning violent pornography, which we do. In Aboriginal communities that are isolated for the wider communitiies attitudes pornography has had a dangerous affect.

      But in a broad society strip clubs and porn are the only things that I think have a negative effect (brothels dont really impact), not because they promote violence but because they promote unrealistic views of sex and relationships. Porn needs to answer for a rise in demanding brazillians, anal sex on the second date and the willingness of women to have a lesbian thresome, before it needs to answer for any non-existant surge in violence against women.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Lulu

        Apples, I think James was saying that a *lack* of porn & brothels would drive an increase in violence against women – not the opposite.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Ms. Butlertron

        + 5000!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Ms. Butlertron

          Also James, you might not know this but in the UK the homicide rates for prostitutes (albeit mostly street walkers) are about three times higher than those for the general female population…

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
    • Alison

      It would be unlikely to increase sexual assault by removing strip clubs, porn etc as sexual assault is about power and control not about sex. It appears that Iceland is making a clear and strong statement that indicates that they value women who are not a commodity to be either brought or traded. Good for Iceland

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  4. Anonymous

    No little girl dreams of being a prostitute when she grows up! I’m with Iceland. There has to be better regulation.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  5. anon

    I think one of the issues with this story is that not a lot of people realise that a lot of the women working in the sex industry around the world actually do not make the choice to do so. Many are trafficked and forced into the industry and work as slaves with no rights no pay, not to mention having their lives taken away by their kidnappers.
    Did you know that slave traders around the world make more than Google, Nike and Starbucks combined?
    How can we be ok with this?
    The sex industry is not just people who want to be prostitutes- whom I have no right to judge so I won’t but spare a thought for those who are in the industry against their will as modern day slaves.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  6. Mel

    I think the sex industry in Australia is quite different to what they are doing in Iceland. Clearly women in Iceland are making a choice not to work in these places which is creating the problem of traffiking women in, and as a society they have a right to say that this is unacceptable and these women on the whole are not making an informed choice to participate in the industry.
    In many nordic countries they have access to free education and better opportunities post graduation, reduced child care rates etc. If we had that same access in Australia wouldn’t that vastly effect the number of sex workers in the Australian sex industry?

    I think as a society in Australia if we didn’t have women making the choice to work in the sex industry and were faced with a sex industry where women were subject to sexual slavery and traffiking that becomes unacceptable. It all comes down to choice and we have a clean regulated industry which offers a level of protection to it’s workers, I think what Iceland is stating with these laws is if people choose to work in the industry all well and good but when that choice is not yours it becomes a different thing and they don’t want to participate in an industry of sex traffiking.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • dragon

      That’s a pretty sugar coated version Mel. Sadly there are girls here who are traffiked from Eastern Europe and other less fortunate nations. The traffikers get them hooked on heroin and other drugs, take their passports and then force them to work in the sex industry. Some clubs in Australia are clean and the girls are looked after. But you would be shocked to know just how many are not and how many of these women have serious drug problems. Even sadder is that these women can’t see a way out. A lot have children and when you see these kids at school (and I have) and see what they ‘act out’ it is scary. There are women who operate from home. The sex industry is not specific to particular clubs or venues, it’s all over the place. Unprotected women at the hands of some pretty vicious and mercenary people.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Mel

        I was not trying to sugar coat the Australian industry merely observing that Iceland should not be condemned for taking a stand against these practices.
        As a society they seem to be taking a stand and saying this is unacceptable. By making legal changes they have the power to try to stamp this practice out in their country.
        In Australia also I believe we need to take a stand and say it is unacceptable when women do not have the choice. There are laws and regulations regarding the sex industry in Australia and anyone operating outside of these needs to be shut down and prosecuted. As a society we need to use our voice to make it loud and clear there is a line in the sand as to what is acceptable. It is a sad that as a society we don’t do more to help and protect these women that have been placed in this position and are kept there by drugs and have had their passports taken. These are the stories that need to be in the media highlighting the issue so people think long and hard about what we stand for.
        I believe this is what they are trying to do in Iceland and I commend them for their progressive stand on the issue.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Apples

          We are very very slow to crack down on reports of illegal brothels (where you find the trafficked girls).

          We are slowly making some progress, such as not automatically criminalising and deporting illegal sex workers.

          And lets make a point here, some of these women, while treating awful, did come here knowing they would work in the sex trade, and that has complicated the situation even more and why even fewer try to seek help, they are trapped – passports taken etc – but they fear its their own fault and they will be in trouble. The more media friendly ‘i thought I was going to waitress’ is actually rare. But the media dont approve as much of the girl who knew she would be working illegally and simply hoped to make money to send home, and then it all went wrong.

          The media only want to report on the clear cut black and white story. Most women around the world are half-complicit (doesnt make it right) in their trafficking. Either their parents sold them, they agreed to go to another country, then their passport and earnings where taken and they were locked up. But all the media wants to hear is “i was snatched off the street and sold in sex slavery 100% against my will”.

          What we need in this country is stronger quicker enforcement when illegal doing is reported. And to find the illegal doers we need a well publicised phone number that people who suspect they know of trafficked girl or illegal brothel can call.

          There also needs to advertised ways for clients to spot that there brothel is illegal. A positive sex campaign not treating them like filthy johns. Teach a man to ask for the brothel licence number, to identify listless miserable looking girls, report the offer of no condom for extra fee, be suspicious of a cash only brothel. Make it a) ok for men to come forward and b) give them a sense of responsibility to be a good sex customer.

          But this will never happen. Taking a reasoned compassionate attitude towards the sex industry just doesnt play well in the tabloid media.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • dragon

            One of the things that differ greatly between Iceland’s government and ours is the ratio of women in top positions. The fact there are women in these significant public roles that unite against these sort of issues is fantastic and inspiring. I am so saddened by girls using sex to get what they want and calling it ‘empowerment’. Women in top positions are sometimes accused of ‘sleeping their way to the top’, at least that used to be a favourite slur by intimidated men. Now if people say it, it might well be true given that so many women seem to think that sex equals power. When did this occur? I don’t really think that’s what feminists of the past had in mind when they fought for equality. Men are never accused of using sex to gain power in corporate or industry. I thought men who used sex to exert their power were called rapists…. isn’t that why rapists use sex? To show power? I’m very confused by the whole women using sex as empowerment thing, especially when I hear of high school girls giving guys oral sex in the school toilets, saying that it’s ok because “it’s not sex” and thinking they are in control. Puh-lease! Where have we gone wrong??? If these girls treat themselves like objects for sale then what’s to stop anyone else doing so? Until that mindset radically changes then the sex industry will flourish. We need strong female role models in positions of leadership to show young women that brains and knowledge are more powerful than giving a guy a blow job in the toilets or a lapdance.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
  7. gigdiary

    The sex industry is a part of society. To cherry-pick prostitution and legislate to remove it in the name of women’s rights or decency is a fatuous decision and a ridiculous argument. While the religious Right and the feminist Left would prefer it didn’t exist, legislation is not the answer. Driving supply and demand underground will create more problems than it solves. Much like prohibition in the 20s, it is like putting the cork in the bottle and hoping the Genie will disappear in a puff of smoke.

    By putting the cork in the bottle, society risks returning to the era that denied such an industry existed, thereby allowing the black market to thrive. Are you enjoying watching ‘Underbelly’? Please don’t give free reign to future generations of criminals to propagate similar sordid empires. With both drug distribution and prostitution concealed on the wrong side of the law, there is only one element of society that benefits: the criminal.

    While drug laws remain in the dark ages, sex work has made strides. Licensed, clean premises exist. Women that choose to do this work are no longer persecuted or prosecuted for their choice. Yet there are extremes, and they all have to do with the illegal market. Perpetuating the cycle of illegal prostitution, moral outrage and liberal indignation are futile and damaging adjuncts to the pursuit of a successful, happy and healthy society in 2010.

    The myriad comments expressed by the eloquent Apples on this post explain much more than I can.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  8. Apples

    I believe living in a largely free lightly regulated (compared to other countries people) country means you have to take the bad as well as the benefits.

    We get to have large freedoms that allow people in this country to live wildly differing lifestyles without bothing each other. Strict muslims can live alongisde hippy lesbian parents who dont have a tv.

    I dont mind shutting down strip clubs. I think they breed crime. Its not the feminist reasons. Just like we shut down the amusement parlours in Melbourne on Russell St that were drug fronts. Iceland have trafficking problems, so shut the clubs fine.

    I have a problem with the feminist/protection logic. I like my free country and I accept that to be able to live life the way I want I have to maybe put up with seeing other people live their life in a way I dont like or that offends me.

    The govt needs to step in when someone is getting hurt or the law is broken. They can protect sex workers without closing down the whole industry so thats not a reason. I dont like the idea that people with one view, one ideology can tell other people how to live, in a country where we are meant to able to live fairly freely and in very different ways.

    If you dont like strip clubs, prostitutes, porn whatever, as long as it is legal, vulnerable people protected and your only beef is you simply dont like the idea of it then too bad. Walk a different route if you dont want to walk past the strip club. Avert your eyes from the brothel billboard. Dont socialise with prostitutes if you dissaprove of what they do.

    Find me the large group of people in Australia whose ability to life the lifestyle they want is being imfringed upon by the sex industry.

    If your only reason to shut down the sex industry is a paternalistic protection of people then I say the best practice around the world when this has been studied has largely concluded the safest thing for a sex worker is well regulated legal industry.

    I dont want to live in a country that tightly regulates people’s activites because in my head I have a list of countries that do things like ban gambling, sex industry, porn, homosexuality etc and you know what for all those scandavian countries, america in some things, that get it kind of right I raise you a Saudi Arabia. And no I am not smoking crack. Its a slippery slope once you let one small ideological group (of any kind) get a hold of controlling our lifestyles and social actions.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • She is Jade

      Apples, what you mentioned about regulation and protection of women (and men) in the industry is exactly what I was thinking, in a much more literate manner!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Anon for this

      The silly thiing is that Victoria has a great system which is not shared by the rest of the country.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Yes Victoria is what I studied with reference to other states and countries. However for every thing we get right that other states don’t, like prostitution, I see you a 24 hour bing drinking culture that is the worst in the country and one of the worst in the world…

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • aprils_fool

          I’m actually replying to my being good at ‘it’ reply. I’m just too lazy to go and find it. You were absolutely right. But the reply was made with my tongue firmly planted in my own cheek…

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  9. Mabol

    I find this issue interesting but difficult. I’m not a big fan of banning people from acting in ways that they wish to even when they may possibly be harmful to themselves because I think the repercussions of controlling people to this extent may be worse than letting people have the freedom to make serious mistakes (not assuming working in the sex industry is a mistake for all women, though I think it would have been for me personally, had I chosen to ever do it, but I’ve known women that are fine with it.)

    I don’t think it is as simple as saying it is people’s ‘choice’ either. The influences on peoples actions can be difficult to determine sometimes, especially for ourselves. (Simone de Beauvoir calls this ‘the opacity of looking in on oneself’)

    I think we need to remember though that when we talk about empowerment and choice, although some of the particular women that choose to profit from their bodies with no pressing need to do so may in fact sometimes be comfortable and happy with their decision, there is a wider effect of the ‘sex’ industry which I think can be harmful for all women because it reinforces an attitude of placing the value of women in their sexual objectification. So whilst legislation may impinge on some women’s rights this may certainly be more than compensated for by the loss of harmful characterization for all women. I’m a bit of a libertarian but I do think legislation is sometimes needed to ensure ‘positive freedom’ and equality. What can I say, its a toughie.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  10. Jane Shaw

    I would be very concerned about any attempt to criminalise the sex industry in Australia, not because I think it’s empowering – I don’t – but because it would be very dangerous for the women who choose or are forced to work in brothels and strip clubs.

    Most forms of prohibition have failed, and where controversial industries are legalised and sensibly monitored they usually work well (think drugs in Amsterdam and prostitution as described in Anon this time’s post below). By “work well”, I mean that processes are in place to protect the health, finances and well-being of the people involved.

    The women involved in the sex industry may be coerced, but criminalising it wouldn’t change that, it just makes it harder for those women to find help.

    Also: “feminist energy permeates everything”? Seriously, if that were described as “men’s rights energy permeates everything” I’d be getting shivers up my spine and finding passports for my daughters.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  11. Anon this time

    This may take a few minutes to read so grab a cuppa…I’ve decided to write this post in response to an earlier poster who wanted to hear from people who had worked in the sex industry. I was a sex worker in my 20′s. I was a successful sex worker. I paid my rent, my bills, fed the child and paid taxes. I could also just work 3 days a week which meant I could spend quite a lot of time with my daughter. Like all jobs there were days when it was all a bit of a bore and others that went really well. I worked in a licensed brothel, had a monthly health check and produced a clean bill of health to my employer. The costs of keeping yourself well maintained were quite high, but in those days the tax department didn’t require you to have your company’s name embroidered on every item of clothing you used for work! The initial reason for starting this line of work was because ends were not being met by the payments that centrelink gave me to supplement my small full time wage. I didn’t go into this job thinking…wooo hoo!! sex all day..yeeha! I was incredibly nervous on my first day, but the other girls, the receptionist and manager were all very supportive and it was always maintained that if the work no longer suited the sex worker she was free to leave at any time with no recriminations. As for the reasons that other women went into this industry were really diverse. We had uni students (we had lots and lots of those), who could work a weekend and could live off a weekends pay. Quite a few women were in similar situations to myself, where they could work just a couple of shifts, have enough to live on and still get to spend lots of quality time with their kids. We also had school leavers who either didn’t want to or didn’t get offered places at uni and wanted to make ‘easy’ money. These young women were generally the most unreliable staff as they didn’t see this as a proper job and would just turn up when it suited them. Obviously there were others who were very private and didn’t discuss their reasons for choosing this sort of work. Generally though each of these women chose this work. For most of us it wasn’t our first choice, but we could do it. The way I treated clients was much like a good masseuse treats their clients. I was using my body and (acquired) knowledge to provide a service to someone. A lot of my clients were middle aged men who simply were not getting sex at home anymore, were widowed or divorced. They were on the whole not interested in going out to ‘pick up’ women and preferred to spend time with someone who would give them a massage and sex. We did once get ‘raided’ by the police, but we were all more concerned with getting something more modest on. It’s hard to keep your dignity with only your bra and knickers on while having your id checked by a cop. Not the most edifying experience as you may imagine. The police, on this particular visit were looking for illegal sex workers, ie underage workers or illegal immigrants. But they otherwise left us alone to get on with it.
    With this in mind I don’t think brothels should be banned, monitoring them closely as they do in Melbourne is generally pretty successful. The workers are safe (as are the clients) and they have a clean environment to work in. Strip clubs as Apples has pointed out are a different animal altogether and I can’t comment on them never having worked in them. So for those who are still with me thank you for reading this rather longwinded post.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Aniko

      Thank you Anon for your honesty, it must have taken some courage to speak out on this sensitive subject.
      It was a great read, I learnt something, again!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Jane Shaw

      I agree. Thank you for this insight.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Apples

      Thank you for that! If you’re interested scroll down below to my response to Rainbow where I described (from my academic studies) the average client and average girl and average brothel (not that you’re not a speical person!). Your story seems to pretty much fit the bill. Glad to know I’m not talking hot air, please let me know if I got something wrong I don’t want to contribute to misconceptions, I only have an academic view of things.

      There is a definte need for sex workers from decent people with reasonable needs and the industry needs reasonable level headed people like yourself : )

      There were times when waitressing heaps, barely able to fit in study and writing on the sex industry and the big cash and being tempted….I totally understand where you are coming from. I just didnt have the looks or temperament – ewww grey wrinkly balls!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Apples

      You know, of all the people I know who either had preconceptions about the sex industry or no view, once they’ve actually talked to the average worker and looked into it even just a little forms the conclusion that a regulated policed legal industry is the best option.

      The only person who I know who disagrees is my nutty (IMO) extreme feminist friend who wants to save the sisterhood, one prostitute at a time.

      The media has alot to answer for, completely distorting things with selective reporting.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • BS

      Thank you for your very courageous comments, even though we are anonymous. You have shown an unknown world to many of us.
      I would like to ask, has your experience changed your feelings for men? Are you able to have a loving relationship with a man, away from the sex industry? Do you ever have ‘feelings’ for a client? Do any of the girls have boyfriends while working in the industry, and how do these boyfriends feel about it? Are there brothels with male workers for female clients (or are they just pubs)?
      My questions sound a bit voyeuristic, but it is a foreign world to me, and the dynamics of relationships are fascinating, and I would love your feedback.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Anon for this

        I’m happy to answer questions BS to try and dispel some of the myths surrounding sex workers..right..so..
        1. No it hasn’t changed how I feel about men. I was always a woman who actually related in a lot of instances with men better than women, I have always enjoyed male company in a platonic way, which could be a factor in why I could do this successfully.
        2. The feelings that I may have developed for clients were more along the lines of feeling ‘fond’ of them. You inevitably met some clients who you just ‘clicked’ with and they were the ones who you could have a bit of a laugh (or for some) a cry with. Friendships did certainly develop with clients but never outside the brothel itself. It wasn’t unusual for girls to ask their clients about their kids or how a holiday had gone.
        3. Lots of the girls did have partners as did I. This was always a very tricky line to toe. Sex with a client is so very different to sex with a boyfriend/husband. Sex in a client/worker situation is (and i can only speak for myself of course) a very deliberate act, very choreographed, very much a stepping outside of myself and reading cues from the client which for me completely eliminated any chance of ‘getting into it’. Although the client never really saw it that way, if I was doing my job right. My now husband and I were together during the time that I worked. He wasn’t thrilled to bits but accepted that it was work. It did take quite a lot of reassurance from me that what we did together in bed was very different to what happened at work. We have now been together for 16 years and have 2 children together and we still speak to each other!! Nicely sometimes even!! Some other girls said that their guys were ok with it and actually liked the fact that their gf/wife was found to be attractive enough by other men to be paid for it. Other girls had really unhappy situations which ended with them being single or not willing to date while they worked.
        4. As far as I’m aware there were no brothels staffed solely with men for straight women. There are some specialist places that have trannies, and gay men clients and workers. Though we did get couples come in from time to time. The place to find male sex workers for straight women are the escort agencies.
        I hope that has clarified things and given you a bit more of an insight, even though I’m being very brave under the cover of my alias. You all now know something my best friend doesn’t!

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • BS

          AFT, I am sitting here at a loss for words, trying to stop my eyes from getting teary. Thank you for your open and honest answers to my nosey questions. You are obviously an intelligent, thoughtful and caring woman (even in the way you have listed your answers). I guess I stereotyped sex workers (like that phrase better than the p word), as being less intelligent members of society.
          I am impressed by the clinical, service approach that you have to it. Your whole explanation seems so logical and even understandable.
          I am so impressed with your husband’s attitude. I could never have accepted things, as he has done. Personally, sexual intimacy is such a personal, private thing to me, I could never share my wife with other men like that; he must love you very much. (On a lighter note, I suppose you could show him a thing or two.)

          I have several hundred other questions following your answers; could you indulge me further on a few more?:
          1. If you had your time over, would you do it again?
          2. Were you in a relationship with your now husband before you began working in the industry? (I guess I am asking how did you meet.)
          3. Did your husband try to get you out of the industry soon after you met?
          4. You mentioned you had a child when you started, I gather from another partner, so I guess you have three children, some of whom would be late teens. Do you ever discuss the industry with them, understandably not from an ‘I’ve been there’ angle, but in answer to their natural curiosity, and what type of slant do you put on the industry?
          5. Would you ever go back to it, if circumstances were really bad?

          Thank you for being the person you are, and sharing the way you have; may your future be happy and successful, forever. You have certainly demonstrated that it is foolish to judge others without knowing them.

          PS: You have a book in you (the story, the writing ability, etc.), but how to do it anonymously?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  12. Jo M

    The problem with making such things illegal is that if a girl gets hurt or murdered, justice will be so much harder to come by. It would make it impossible for them to seek help from the police, or any other legal authority.

    I don’t support prostitution or strip clubs, but I do believe in support systems for prostitutes and strippers. Criminalising it will take any possibility of that away.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Apples

      So true. They have this problem big time in the States where it is illegal pretty much everywhere. Not only can you not admit you are a prostitute when it is relevant to your being a victim of crime, the police actively criminalise and go after working girls creating massive distrust. And then they wonder why the street girls wont help them when they might know something about an unrelated crime on their patch!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Lulu

      Iceland has criminalised the *buying* of sex, not the selling; in the U.S, it’s both, which is what causes the problem for the women concerned.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  13. Michelle

    I am thinking about the case of surrogacy – there are laws in many places that reject the right of women to profit from producing a baby for another person. So in this circumstance we are very uncomfortable/conflicted with the purchase or commercialisation of a woman’s body. We are more comfortable with this being a non-commercial transaction done out of altruism.
    Yet, when it comes to selling sex for money to males (nearly always) we have these strange arguments about the empowerment of women. To me, the argument for the legalisation/regulation of the sex industry is that it deals with the reality of this industries existence and hopefully lends a greater deal of protection and safety for the women involved.
    Probably much easier to close down the sex industry in a small homogenous country like Iceland (and currently spectacularly isolated) than it would be to do in most other places in the world. Then again, maybe if we had a fabulously feminist leader and parliament we could achieve the same thing here.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Apples

      I don’t think it is as black and white as “the govt protects womens bodies from freedom of choice in one area so they should in another”. I don’t think the govt intends for something like surrogacy laws to be extrapolated into “we need to protect the commercialisation of women’s bodies”. If that were the case, you would have to make modelling illegal. The argument doesnt hold up across the board.

      I think surrgacy is totally different, you have a child involved and commercialising makes an already fraught situation even more difficult. While some surrogacy arrangements could work just fine with commercialisation it is too dangerous to make it legal for everyone, too unweidly to enforce a case by case basis. So it is just blanket illegal for the greater good.

      As for prostition and stripping it is easier to say 1. be over age 2. be in a legal regulated premise 3. be paid legally. And while some women may be abused, underage, trafficked on the whole most will be adult women making a reaosnably free choice. Also, unlike surrogacy, prositution will exist in large numbers regardless.

      The nature of surrogacy and having to go to hospital to give birth, social workers could be alerted if things are suss, who is on the birth certificate etc means that commercialisation of surrogacy isnt a huge underground problem that we need to regulate as it we cant stop it.

      I don’t buy into sex work being ‘empowering’. That to me is a ridiculous view. I also dont buy into the patronising ‘protecting women from themselves’ and having some blanket policy or ideology. Different situations, different countries, different states, different people. There is no policy that works or we would all do it. I think the government does need to protect us from ourselves in some instances (speed limits etc) where we wont, or cant, do the best thing.

      But I get uncomfortable when it is genderised in the way some of the attitudes are towards sex workers. There is a reason alot of anti sex industry people struggle to make inroads with their agendas or attempts (genuine) to help sex workers. They simply come across as patronising twats.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Anonymous

      Great comment Michelle – agree with every single word !

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  14. Apples (Future Mrs. Simon Baker)

    100% off topic but where else to vent?

    How DARE Channel 9 take off The Mentalist for the Carl Williams special!!!! Firstly, his story is too violent and yuck for MY 8:30 timeslot. Much more appropriate for 9:30pm (take that CSI Miami fans!).

    Secondly, it has been 3 weeks of repeats. I was SO looking forward to this. I need new material for my, uh, *noctural thoughts* of Simon Baker. Don’t Channel 9 understand a fat arsed receding hair killer and his loser gangster mates do not provide the um sufficient material?? As Mia said in her book, it is very male dominated at 9. If women ran Channel 9 no way would they scrap Mentalist….in fact it would be Simon 24/7.

    As for Carl, well couldn’t have happened to a nicer bloke.

    Return to normal conversation now…. :p

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Happymum

      Yes, stop giving convicted murderers airtime. As if Carl Bloody Williams deserves any more media time than reporting his death. Channel 9 is just turning him into more of a martyr with every TV special and underbelly glorifying his criminal past. What is the bet that Underbelly – the Carl williams one will be shown tomorrow night.

      Although, I don’t mind if they slot it in instead of that craptacular show Two and a half men!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rainbow

      i have been thinking about how i feel about his murder, and really i feel sad for the little boy he once was (a very long time ago), but other than that i think he probably knew his days were numbered and knew he had it coming.
      i am completely over the whole underbelly thing, i haven’t ever really liked it and i really hate the whole mafia, drug dealer storyline, it sensationalises a really seedy lifestyle.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Personally if it were me with a 32 year sentence, with family or not, I’d rather be dead. I almost wish he had lived, on reflection, because life in max for 32 years is a much better punishment than death.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Katyberry

      Aha! My suspicion is that Channel 9 orchestrated the murder as a ratings ploy for the Underbelly franchises.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Ms. Butlertron

        The scary thing is, I think you’re right…

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Lulu

      Hah, totally agree. CSI Miami is much more missable than Simon.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Kerri Sackville

      Hey Apples,
      Totally agree about Simon (see http://lifeandothercrises.blogspot.com/2009/06/simon-says-sex.html).
      You do realise, however, that I have first dibs. Just working on that pesky wife of his, and then I’m taking up my throne as Crown Princess Baker.
      So feel free to fantasize, but he’s mine, baby. ALL MINE!!!!!!!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  15. Permanently twenty three

    I’d love to hear what strippers or sex workers working in Australia think about this. I think it’s really easy to make generalisations about the industry, and I’m reluctant to make them myself.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  16. amandarose

    I don’t think these laws are progressive. Pushing anything like this underground removes the safety of brothels and makes something inevitable much more degrading and dangerous.
    Just because it is banded doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
    Progressive is making an environment where women have more options and the don’t feel desperate enough to do it if they don’t want to.
    I don’t think stripping etc is empowering. But I do believe in realism- it isn’t called the oldest profession without a reason.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  17. Frankie

    The only sex workers I’ve known personally are young girls and boys who aren’t exercising free choice and empowerment as much as they are trying to survive a crazy world. I’m talking girls/truck stops/oral sex/drug money. Boys prostituting themselves so they’d have somewhere to sleep that night. Not pretty. If there was some way to ban/fix that up, I’m all for it. (I do realise that there are other sides to this, this is just the side I’ve seen through my work).

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • amandarose

      That is banned isn’t it? I thought only brothels were allowed. It is policing it that is difficult

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Frankie

        you’re right amandarose, it is (it’s also banned due to the ages) so that is a policing matter I suppose.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Apples (Future Mrs. Simon Baker)

          Street sex, where these young people end, is blanket illegal in all states. “Tolerance zones” are the only exception where the police try to focus on safety not punishment.

          I do agree with you that 12 year old Aboriginal girls swapping sex with truckies for petrol is horrofic and needs to be tackled. But I don’t think you can lump that in with a legal well run regulated brothel with an over age girl consensually having sex with a lonely man. Shades of grey….

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
  18. Missamoo

    I think i’m going to move there!!!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • OneSmallLife

      me too me too

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  19. Apples

    I love that Iceland has done this. I think it is the right choice for them, with their trafficking issues. In an ideal world I would love to take some Scandavian type progressive politics and use them here. Its my kind of deal.

    It’s great to dream but keep things in perspective:

    - Iceland is 93% Icelandic. America for example will have caucasian as a minority in our lifetime. Australia is too multicultural to even break it down. Want an example, go take a walk down the street.
    - Iceland has a population of 300,000. Victoria’s largest regional city has around the same. Australia is 22million. Add a few zeroes to 300million and thats what America is nearly at.
    - Iceland is the 107th smallest country in the world, out of 233. Australia? We’re 6th.

    Some of those other beloved progressive Scandavian countries are similar. So let’s not beat ourselves up. For a big country with a large multicultural, multi-background country and 22 million people to please we are doing pretty damn good in the progressive stakes.

    Its always good to want to keep improving and checking out best practice around the world but it never hurts to pat ourselves on the back and feel alittle proud at how well we all manage to get along : )

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Melissa

      What a refreshing piece of perspective!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • rosebud

      At the moment anyway, the majority of this country is still causican, even though you see many nationalities in bigger cities.

      Also, what does land size have to do with anything anyway?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Enforcement. Much easier to enforce laws in a teenie little country, hard to hide. We may not populate our vast country with a density appropriate to size but you can hide criminal activity a damn lot easier than some 300,000 people tiny little nation where the cops know every nook and cranny and everyone knows everyone (seriously, they do) and it wouldnt take long before it got back to the authorities that so and so was running a brothel in their basement.

        We are basically talking about trying to enforce a law on a people that is nearly all the same background/culture as well as race (I know we are largely caucasian but we within that we are multi-background leading to differences in lifestyle and opinions) and who all live in what is the equivalent of a large regional town.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  20. Happymum

    The only thing I can think of that is empowering is the fact that stripping and prostitution can bring in lots of fast cash for women. Shame women have to do it to earn a decent living, while their other talents are wasted.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  21. TheRealSydney

    I agree with DQ with regard to “sex trafficing” practices – they need to be stopped – any girl held, traded or forced into this kind of work should be saved.

    On a trip to Thailand last year I was really disturbed to see the sex workers there, I’m guessing many of them brought in from Burma, clearly not wanting to be there – trapped – and drugged to the eyeballs – it’s bloody awful – I wouldn’t go back to Thailand again because of it.

    But look, I know quite a few chicks here who work as strippers, topless waitresses, pole dancers etc (and I know them quite well) – they are not exploited and they do not have drug addictions.

    What they do have is a whole lot of money!! – a couple of grand in a night is pretty good pay.

    I was also best friends with a ‘working girl’ (that’s what prostitutes call themselves) for quite a few years – she wasn’t a drug addict either, she didn’t love her job that’s for sure – but she loved the money and the freedom it brought her – it was a trade off (something that many of us do in other ways).

    The biggest problem for these girls is that the industry pays them so much money (their 6 – 10 hours = my 38 hours – wow – wouldn’t that be nice?)

    But what that essentially means is that they find it hard to leave the industry because they are so used to having that much money and so much spare time, it’s just really hard for them to do a normal paying job.

    The clever ones study and have a back up plan – the not so clever ones – well they’re gonna find it hard when their looks and body no longer support them.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Apples

      The issues in Thailand make me sick. Especially as, as you mention, the girls are mostly refugees. Thailand keep these people in squalid camps, allows them to trafficked into Thailand for their sexual pleasure then kicks their arse back to the camps when they bust them.

      The weird thing too about Thailand is it not all tourists, its locals as well who are clients. Yet my Thai friend tells me sex is very taboo in their culture, porn is illegal etc.

      Perhaps some of those conservative anti-sexualisation hijackers Mia was talking about recently should take a study trip to Thailand. Their sex industry is more than just tourist dollars driven, seems to be some sort of weird issues they have with sex keeping things booming.

      But then, don’t several countries that prize the virginity of their own local women traffick in women they deem not worthy of respect to service their needs.

      At least in Australia, like it was so eloquently put on Underbelly last night, men in brothels are often there because they are a dud root who can’t pick up….

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Jil

        I always thought prostitutes must have just been very good at ‘it’ – but after reading this, maybe they don’t have to be! LOL

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Apples

          Like any regular profession there is a, lets say, corporate ladder.

          You wouldnt just assume a person who works in a bank is either the million dollar CEO, not the cleaner who barely earns minimum wage. In a bank there are a range of positions on the career ladder and huge spectrum of wages.

          In prostition firstly in depends on the country, just like any other profession is different depending on location. In Australia your lowest are the street girls. They are on the street because the legal brothels wont hire them, for reasons such as drug problems etc. Legal brothels under the law must have clean girls (not that this always happens). Street work is dangerous, and although can be higher paid than a low class brothel, is still the lowest form of work. No one really cares about their skills, mostly men to go them because they want no condom or to pay less than a brothel, not have to do the whole rigamole of choosing a girl, booking an hour, having a shower etc. Quicker and easier with a street girl. You dont have to be skilled to be a street girl really, thats not what attracts the client.

          Then you have brothel girls. And again their is a scale of low to high end brothels. Brothel girls tend to be clean, want a safe environment. It is here that skill starts to come into play. And not necessarily skill you think of, to be a good sex worker you need to be a good package: looks, personality, conversation skills, demeanour (not looking grossed out), sex skills. How good your package how good your wages and where you work.

          Then you have run of the mill freelance escorts. Usually experienced who only want to work a little to top up their income. You have to be registered with the governtment, pay taxes etc. These women dont want to share a split of earnings with a brothel or agency. They tend to have a good package as they depend on regulars more than anyone else (suprisingly, most girls on all levels derive most income from regulars). On the downside, you dont have the safety of an agency or brothel behind you. These girls advertise online and in the papers.

          Then there are agency escorts. Also they have a low to high end but they tend to be higher than brothels and command more money. They meet clients in hotels and sometimes their homes or serviced apartments owned or provided by the agency. Your package needs to be good to be one of these. The agency takes a high cut though. This is where you find the media popular high end call girl command in the thousands. Those women go to high earning business men regulars and visiting rich men, usually in 5 star hotels. Sometimes these women are working models in between gigs or gorgeous uni students who have the package. This is what most prostitutes want to be. But very very few make it. In Melbourne there would only be less than a handful of girls able to command (and actually be hired, not just advertise and hope) $4000 for a night.

          It does depend on your package/skills but with such a wide ladder of, er, opportunity, and such demand for women, unless you cant get the demeanour bit right (cant hide your distaste for the work) anyone can find a job somewhere on the ladder. So yes, some girls are crap and some out of this world. Wages run from as little as $50 to $10,000 for a full weekend with a top girl.

          Most girls are in the mid range in your average suburban brothel :)

          ps: as i mentioned earlier, but for those who havent read it, i wrote on the sex industry at uni hence my inside knowledge! Not that I have a problem with being a working girl (i dont think I would cut it on many levels!)

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • rainbow

            thanks apples, that is fascinating, and i was beginning to wonder how you had such amazing inside knowledge! so many things i have never thought about, especially the importance of being able to hide your distaste. i suppose a lot of peoples knowledge of prostitution is based purely on julia roberts in pretty women..
            what i’d like to know is who makes up the clientele? are they mostly single, married? are they men who can’t get sex elsewhere?
            i used to live overlooking the rear entry car-park for a brothel and i developed a minor fascination for them.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Apples

              Argh small type, rainbow to reply to this I am going to hit reply to another response inside this comment, so apologies if it falls in a strange place!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Jil

              Thanks for the insight! As Rainbow says, it’s a fascinating look into a world I know almost nothing about. I used to work next door to what I think was a brothel in Sydney. Since moving to a rural area I have a few male friends (in their 40′s and 50′s) who said they’ve been to a brothel, but they never admit that they went for themselves, it’s always a group of them went for a ‘friend’ who was depressed after getting divorced or some other similar reason. It seems to be something lots of country guys in their early 20′s have done on a trip to the city too, at least that’s what I’ve heard (they might just be bragging though, so I don’t know for sure).

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
        • Anon this time

          Lets just say the better you are at ‘it’ the more maney you make..they will keep comin’ back for more…lol

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Apples

            It is more than sex though. You can give the greatest bj around but if you are rude, cant make conversation and look grossed out by your client you wont get repeat business and that is where the money is. Sex skills are just one small part of the overall package. You dont have to be brilliant. Also particularly as most men get a quick bj (not to finish) and then go on top, thrust away for less than a couple minutes and thats it. True story, thats the average sex act. Not hard to be good at that!

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
      • Apples

        Rainbow I think I want to describe the different positions within prostitution because people make such generalisations without realising that prostitution (itself only one subset of a broader industry, the sex industry) is a hugely varied industry that runs on similar market forces and employment and practice principles as mining, banking, etc. You just cannot generalise, the people the issues are so so varied. You are talking tens of thousands of people in Australia alone. They are neither all oppressed, nor all empowered and free.

        The clients? Again varied depending on the where on the ladder I described men visit (street, brothel, escort, high end etc). For examples sake the best place to look at the clients is the mid range brothel with standard girls where the one hour session is the top seller.

        The average man here is 35 – 60 and is either a) not getting sex at all/enough – within their relationship or as a single person or/and b) wants something sexual that their current relationship is not providing.

        Most just aren’t getting sex, or enough. Your classic is the middle aged married man who doesnt exactly want to see prostitutes but their wife has lost her sex drive or interest in him. They tend to be reasonably respectful of the girls, feel abit guilty but simply have needs. They still love their wives. Just like most sex workers are legal, age-appropriate, choosing to work and decent people so too is the average client a decent guy.

        The second most common category is men who have a specific sexual need. They may also fall into the first category of not getting sex but sometimes they also have an otherwise perfectly adequate sex life with their partner. These people want blowjobs, anal, dirty talk, to be dominated, to dominate, to be peed on, to dress up, to have the girl dress up. You get the point.

        The list of humanitys non-intercourse sexual interests is too many too even count. Aside from blowjobs all the things I listed cost extra ontop of the one hour session. With the kink stuff some guys go to kink-special brothels, but the full on dom wanting guys are not as common as the current media trend would have you believe. There is only a handful of dom brothels in Melbourne. Most men who think they want what we call ‘kink’ is actually so mainstream, being spanked etc. Sex workers do not call the light stuff kink, its just extras “would you like spank with that?” is the equivalent of maccas “would you like fries?”. Most brothels offer the light basic kinky stuff for a fee. Its big business. Anything really out there they will direct you to a professional mistress.

        Those are 90% of the business. Then you have young guys in groups who think its funny, some guys who want to lose their plates (again not as many as media depict), men with sexual problems like premature ejaculation who want to practice, foreign men who cannot connect with the locals, older men who may be widowed, the guy who just likes hookers. The arseholes in a general brothel arent as many as you think. Brothels have lots of clients they dont take much crap from the clientele.

        Its pretty much the same with freelance escorts, except they tend to have more regulars. Often they start out in a brothel or agency and then take their favoured clients with them. Just like any other business.

        The mythical high end call girl? Clientele is faily similar, just richer. But they are often politer, more engaging mainly because its like a meal really, regular brothels are take away, youre briefly polite to the girl serving you but its over pretty quick so who really cares who you each think of each other? But with high end you are paying 2-5k the minimum date time is often 3hours, its like a fine dining meal. You are going to get more out of it if you engage with your companion on more than a sexual level. Often at this level the sex is just as brief and basic as all other prostitution levels, its the intelligent (high end have to be smart) company and enjoyment of beauty that men are after. And the ego of buying a stunning woman. If you are areshole to her then you wont have a good night with your girl.

        So on the whole it varies little with the client and their needs. The only place it changes is with street girls. Some of th clientele here will treat the girl ok and use protection, they just want cheap and quick (most brothels it is a minimum hour and showers for the client before and a disease check are standard). But their is a large proproation who are nasty and thats why they go street. They offer more for no condom (illegal in brothels) and desperate drug addicted women will do it. They want to hurt the girls etc.

        We always tend to focus on the outliers, the extremes. The sick bastards beating up on street hookers or trafficked girls in an illegal brothel. Or high end girls with the rich man in the suit dropping 5k and enjoying a nice dinner with the girl. The reality is two average decent people, in an average suburban legally complying, well run respectable business brothel, for the standard hour having the same boring straight forward sex as the rest of us.

        I am all for cleaning up the bottom end of the industry, the illegal and odd situation that crops up and is wrong. But people tend to demonise and judge an entire industry when most people in it, the owners, the girls, the johns and decent average people like you and I and you certainly know someone who is involved in some way and you probably like that person.

        Hope this wasnt too long and boring, its such a big topic its hard to keep it short without missing crucial stuff. : )

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • gigdiary

          Apples, that is a very accurate summation of the issue. Thank you for taking the time to write. Hopefully it dispels some myths, or rather opens some eyes, as to the real nature of the sex industry in Australia today.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • Apples

        Oh and Rainbow its also worth always keeping in mind that most people want to be liked back, to be desired and wanted, to give pleasure as well as recieve it (this is actually a HUGE problem for working girls, men who try to please them and they have to fake an orgasm when the spark just aint there….) is what most of us want in our intimate relatons. Clients (most) know that the girl doesnt want them, doesnt desire them, may even be disgusted by them. But both play the game of pretend.

        Only some men want a quick no strings attached thing where they can get the sex things they want the way they like it. Most clients are just like anyone else, they would rather have satisying sex with their partner who loves them, or meet someone they can have mutual attraction with. Especially with men who wouldnt rather the ego boost of legitimately scoring? Men go to brothels laregly as a last resort, not because they are jerks who want to use women and are misogynists, as some feminists would have you believe.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • gigdiary

          You’ve done your research well…

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Apples

            Thank you. I ended up getting a good mark for my project. However my tutor was not a sex worker (I dont think so anyway…) so the accuracy couldnt exactly be assessed. I didn’t think the women I had talked to would be interested in my academic take on things over 5000words so they never saw the final conclusions!

            Certainly was one of the most interesting things I studied at uni. Interesting projects make essay writing ok. My other controversial topic was victims of crime and how we treat various people when they are a victim. If mamamia ever posts on prison rape versus regular rape victims in the community I am so there…

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Anon this time

              Your reply to Rainbow has been bang on the money Apples. Certainly in my experience. We did on a couple of occasions have a couple of girls work with us and it became apparent very quickly that they had substance abuse issues, they were very quickly asked to leave and not come back. The girls at the executive end are pretty few and far between and their life is by no means particularly glamorous either. A couple of posh frocks, expensive meals and then back to pretending you’re having a wow of a time. I do know though that every ‘worker’ I’ve ever met and that includes myslf always used an alias. My alias had a much more interesting life! This was the way that I was able to keep doing this job and keep my sanity. It was my alias who was doing it not me to a degree. Now I sound like I’m schizophrenic! But it meant that I could keep some distance between myself and the client in my head. Thank you Apples for being another reasonable voice in a world of dissension.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
  22. Guest

    Wow, Iceland seems like an incredibly progressive place.

    My first thought was, “Gosh, imagine if Iceland was as powerful a cultural influence as the States is?” A place where violence is recreational viewing, where a involuntary nipple flash becomes the subject of a government funded inquest, where obesity is the number one preventable cause of illness and death, where three year old girls are dressed up to look like sexy twenty year old women, where fundamentalist Christians preach hatred of blacks, gays and Jews, where a trillion dollars is spent on defence every year…

    …Just a thought peoples… What a wonderful world it would be…

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • aprils_fool

      I travelled through the States on my big OS trip as a youngster and it never ceased to amaze me that they were more upset to see a depiction of loving consensual sex (and said flashed nipple) than they were to see a roomful of people shot up. Bizarre!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  23. Loz

    Wow – go Iceland!! I wish we could have that kind of movement here, but I don’t see that happening for a long time.

    I think that the meaning of empowered is being thrown around a lot. What makes me feel empowered, I guess, would be being able to live independently – perhaps this is what those working in the sex industry are getting at?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  24. Effie

    How do you ban the oldest profession in the world?? Seems like wishful thinking to me.
    Make something illegal and all you do is drive it underground and make it more attractive to those who want a challenge.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Apples

      I thought they banned strip clubs not prostitution? Did I read it wrong? There was some stats thrown in about people’s feelings towards sex work, but I thought it was about strip clubs. To my knowledge, there were no stripper poles in early man’s cave…. :p

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Sally

        “”they’ve just banned strip clubs and are in the process of closing down their sex industry?”

        End of first sentence

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Apples

      I agree you though you cannot stop prositition and regulation to make it safe is the best option (I did uni studies on this). But when it comes to strip clubs I think people can live without them.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Ms. Butlertron

      I think the fact that they have a very small population means that a ban would not be impossible to police like it would in a larger country.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Iceland is this crazy little unique country people seem to forget that. We have as much in common with Iceland as Aliens on the Moon in the country of Moonland.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  25. Is it just me?

    Woo hoo go Iceland!
    Scandinavia are simply streets ahead with their social justice policies. I’d be tempted to move if t didn’t get so cold there!

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  26. Julie Cowdroy

    When it comes to the sex trade, it is worth considering that there are two types of workers. Those who choose to work in the sex trade, and those who are trafficked illegally from other countries and used as sex workers by agents against their will.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Lulu

      I don’t think it’s that simple. Even if a woman is not trafficked illegally from another country, there might be a whole lot of questionmarks over the idea of ‘choice’. Someone who is an alcoholic or heroin addict & does it so she can get her fix? Someone who was abused as a child & developed a f’ed-up sense of herself & believes that she is only valued as a sexual outlet? I don’t know if I’d call those ‘choices’.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Julie Cowdroy

        Great point Lulu.

        Your point on the complexity of why one “chooses” is very valid. One may feel they have no other option.

        However, I still think it’s a worthwhile exercise to divide sex workers into these two generic categories as a preliminary step when analyzing whether or not the industry should be shut down.

        Of course, a subsequent step would be to research why someone “chooses” the sex trade when examining the first group.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
      • Ms. Butlertron

        You could still call them `choices`, but it pays to remember that not all choices are wise choices. Some are bad, ill-informed, and self destructive.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • jecoro

          Yes but do you want to have the choice taken away for everything that is bad, ill-informed and self-destructive, smoking, drinking, eating junk food and so on (okay these things arent quite in the same league as sex work), my point being how much government intervention do we want in our lives?

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Ms. Butlertron

            No, I don’t want it taken away, I just want to point out that just because something was ‘chosen’ does not automatically mean it was in the choosers best interests.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
      • Sandra

        I know a girl who works as a dominatrix and seems to enjoy her job and make decent money. She doesn’t have a drug addiction and has enough skills and talents to work in another industry. My point is – it was her informed choice.

        She is a smart girl and a passionate, eloquent supporter of organisations that work to realise the rights of and afford protections to sex workers.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Sandra

          Actually, let me clarify – she is a woman aged in her late 20s :)

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • AT

          Im thinking pretty woman & Secret diary of a callgirl. 2 examples of sane women who seem to be in the industry by choice, not circumstance

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
        • Apples

          I believe you are correct in the two examples, domantrix and sex diary of a call girl, but these are rare positions in the sex industry and is dangerous they are getting so much press (ESPECIALLY the high-end girls blogs tv shows etc) because it isnt the reality and distorts peoples views.

          To be a domantrix you really have to be into it, it is a very highly skiller, highly specialised position. While some dommes may wish to do something else and be swayed by the money, they do take at least some enjoyment in their work and pride. The high end girls get decently behaved clients and huge sums of money for rarely working.

          But for the average sex worker it is rarely enjoyable, barely tolerable and only worth it for the money. Mostly it is to be endured while thinking of the cash. Very few would claim to like their job, most would simply say they dont mind it.

          I find Diary of a Call Girl disturbing. I know it doesnt overly romnaticse the clients or the work, but I do think for some girls it does present too much of a seductive view of sex work when the reality for most girls is they are not high-end material and if they go for sex work they get a rude shock.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Anon for this

            I’ll just add to this that NONE of the sex workers I knew never, ever had clients in their homes. There was always a very clear delineation between home and work. On the odd occasion I took a job ‘out of house’ it was always to a hotel. Sex work however well you are paid even at the upper but not the ‘executive’ level of things is not at all glamorous. One of the other things that you mentioned is the trouble sex workers have going back into ‘normal’ work. One of the issues is a big gap in your resume. I was lucky I could say I’d been a SAHM. The other issue you have is that it’s quite isolating because in most cases and most certainly mine, you didn’t tell people what you really did for a living because of the censure you faced. There are a lot of people out there who myself included said that we had worked in catering just so that you had an excuse as to why you were never easily contactable. Sorry to all those of you who actually worked in catering!

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Apples

              Hahahaha I never came across the catering one, and I was waitressing while studying the sex industry!

              The gap in resume is frustrating in so many ways I had a long period of illness after uni I just did NOT want to have to explain to employers, in case they thought I would get sick again on them (doubtful). I didnt have to do a medical or sign a release so its none of their businesses.

              I flipped it and said I was caring for a sick relative. Explains the lack of referees. So there you go people in need of an excuse for whatever reason, feel free to take mine!

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
    • Tara Mahoney

      Great point Julie. I think it is extremely relevant to consider the two broad definitions of sex workers.

      Of course, there will lways be complexities of choice within the group that is considered “consenting”, but I think those factors are a world away from the world of trafficked women.

      targotblogged.wordpress.com

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  27. Dom

    sometimes its too easy to ban something rather than fix it

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • IrishLaura

      How could it be fixed?

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  28. Apples

    Oh and the other thing we could consider borrowing form Iceland is their baby name system. Iceland are very very protective of their culture and you have to give your baby an approved Icelandic name. No western or forgein names without approval, one of the parents must be foreign and have a connection to the foreign name to use it. Hence names like Bjork.

    I love the interesting and unique names Western culture throws up but whenever I hear another baby name in the Epponnae Rae category of awful I think of Iceland and how everyone has a decent respectable name and wish we could prevent such “I’m looking for a baby name where I can change the A to an H and any i’s or e’ to maybe some y’s”

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Bobbie

      Oh Apples I completely agree!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Odina

      you want to have to apply to the government to name your child? because that’s what happens if your name isn’t on the “list”. i think its a terribly patronising thing to do.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        Humour people humour. I said I didn’t want it, only when I hear some bogantastic name do I have a brief moment of wishful thinking….

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • Picardie.girl

      I’ve always thought Japan had a good system; they have approved ‘name characters’ and you can’t use other ones. So you can combine various name characters but you can’t use ones that mean things like ‘hate’ or ‘poo’ or whatever. It allows freedom but not free rein for idiocy.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Ms. Butlertron

        It does however have a law that all family units have to register their fasmily with the local town hall under the same family name, which means that approximately 93% of women have to change their names upon marriage. It is legal for men to change theirs and register the family under the wifes name, but they rarely do unless the wifes family have no boys and they are being formally adopted as the `heir`… But that is a whole other post…

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  29. Chelsea!

    Go Iceland! Other countries should take a leaf out of their book. Their policies and social model are great: many female politicians, fantastic health system, good education and the list goes on… I wish Oz, US, UK and co. would open their eyes and see what people really want. Good on Iceland for taking this stand and attempting to prevent the degradation of women, i really hope it works out and other nations follow.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  30. Apples

    Cat you do not want to move to Iceland! Actually Iceland was well known before this Volcano and banning strippers. Iceland is one of the most bankrupt countries on the planet, having gone completely insane (imagine Lehman Brothers was a country) during the boom times getting themselves into massive debt, so bad that other countries had to bail them out. Russia pretty much owns them now. Makes Greece look like playground stuff.

    I like the things Iceland have done in terms of social policies but I think it is very hard to look at them and say ‘hey it works for them we should be able to do that here’. Iceland is a very unique country. They are very isolated and enclosed. Everyone knows everyone (including the politicians). They do alot of things only their way, like their naming system. You don’t have first name fathers exact last name like we do. Everyone is listed in the phone book under first name and occupation to work out who is who.

    In a country so small, so mono culture, so unique, so easily controllable (except when tempted by sub prime money…), you can bring in such progessive policies.

    I like what they have done but I don’t feel bad we won’t be able to achieve anything similar. We are too multicultural, mutli-political views and different to come close to agree on something like this. And we are far too big to enforce it. Iceland is small in everyway. Worth taking note what Iceland are up to, but there is a reason you rarely hear of them, the things they do are rarely aplicable to the rest of the world. I will take the trade of progressive politics for not living in such a mono culture.

    As for getting rid of strippers I am all for it. Not necessarily because of feminist reasons (I’m big on free choice), from a criminology point of view strip clubs attract trouble in every way, at least in the Melbourne scene. Unlike in New York where you have some upper class professionally run ones, like Scores. In Melb the strip clubs are trouble from the bouncers on the door, to the owners (drug dealers, gangsters), to the patrons (drunk, agressive) strip clubs are nothing but trouble. I know trouble will always find somewhere else to go but that doesnt mean we shouldnt get rid of them. Crown got rid of its dodgy gangster affiliated nightclubs and massively cut down on its troubles. The strip clubs are the same people.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  31. cAt

    I want to move to Iceland.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  32. dramaqueen

    I am guessing that the decision is just as much about stopping the “sex trafficking” that permeates parts of Europe. Young women get abducted, or think they are going to work in reputable jobs, only to discover that they have been smuggled into another country and “bonded” into prostitution. There are some terrible stories out there (and I am sure we have some of these problems in Australia as well, just not as widespread as Europe).

    So, knowing that, I totally support the move by Iceland. Sex trafficking is evil and women are used, abused, hooked on drugs to make them compliant and sometimes killed.

    It’s all very well to support a woman who is making a free choice on how she uses her own body but often the legitimate sex industry is a cover for these people who are working illegally.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • TheRealSydney

      Completely agree DQ !

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Apples

      I think something like regulating the sex industry cannot come in a ‘one size fits all’. Especially when ‘sex industry’ is a hugely broad term.

      It is worth seeing what other countries have done and what work for them but Australia has different needs to Europe. While we have some trafficking problems we have much less due to our geogrphaical isolation.

      What problems we do have are unique to us. Our trafficking problem is Asian women in Asian run illegal brothels. Not strip clubs, not legal brothels. Illegal brothels in countries where prostituion is illegal often have willing girls, not just trafficked. Illegal brothels here tend to be illegal for a reason (dodgy owner can’t get a licence, girls not up to legal scratch etc).

      Our strip club problems tend to be that they are fronts for crimes such as cheifly money laundering of drug profits.

      Our street girls tend to be homeless, poverty stricken, abused, drug addicted, health issues. Usually on the street because they cant get a job in a brothel due to their issues, or they are so desperate for money they will trade off safety for the higher pay of the streets. If there is a pimp its usually a boyfriend. Rarely do the street pimps run a string of girls. However in the US because it hooking is illegal so your middle-class hookers will go to the street, as well as the lower ones so they do a quick escape if the cops come. Pimps run strings of girls.

      Sex industry issues affect women the world around. Often women’s experiences are similar. However the issues facing Australia are vastly, vastly different to Iceland and Europe. I like what Iceland has done, obviously its sorts a problem for them. But our issues are different, I don’t want to blindly follow oseas.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  33. Sash

    I don’t know any prostitutes but my old flatmates ex girlfriend was a stripper. Sure, she had problems and was often in and out of stripping but she was a really kind hearted girl and relatively normal. She was an everyday person, and was just able to earn from $100-2000 a night stripping. She said a lot of guys just wanted to talk, she said she’s never slept with a guy for money, and if the money wasn’t so great, she wouldn’t neccessarily do it, but she loves dancing and is quite a sexual person, so who is right to say she can’t do that?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Anon for this one!

      100% agreed. I am a regular MM poster and I own an adult entertainment agency – most of the girls in the industry are just normal fun-loving girls earning a great living doing something that is not socially conventional. On the whole, they are polite, professional, reliable and hardworking. Of course SOME girls have drug habits and dysfunctional lives but so do plenty of people across all industries.

      There is, however, a very clear difference between adult entertainment and prostitution, and I don’t pretend to be an expert on the latter. I’d just like to remind people not to lump all ‘sex work’ into one basket. Whether you think it’s degrading or not, for most strippers (in Australia anyway) their lifestyle IS an independent choice, and for me, an educated and intelligent woman, it’s simply what suits my personality best.

      It would be great to hear from more people with firsthand experience, but I imagine there aren’t too many strippers or call girls in the Mama Mia community!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Apples

        I worked in hospitality while studying, and part of my studies were on the sex industry. I found it highly ironic that in hospitality there were more insane despotic bosses, drug addicted staff, disadvanted people, cash wages, safety issues, bullying and poorly regulated businesses than I came across in my sex industry studies.

        Being so highly scrutinised the legal sex industry business were largely so super careful to be on the right side of the law and regulations because they knew if they put a foot wrong the law/govt/media may come down especially hard on them.

        That said, I find the flourishing of the illegal sex industry disgraceful. The Asian run illegal brothels with trafficked workers, the King Street Strip clubs with gangsters bashings and shootings.

        For me, I found my view to develop to be that the industry on the whole when well regulated and well policed by good co-operation between local council and specalised police to be a model for being realistic and accepting that some things will exist in society and the best way is to carefully allow it (and no I do NOT feel the same way about drugs, even though some try to apply the same theories).

        I certainly do not want to see us go down the path of the US where prostitution is illegal and thus largely controlled by gangsters and secondly where people are criminalised, even jailed, simply for consensual adult sex. The police should find better things to do than having to set up expensive stings of some online escort.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  34. Mary V

    Although done with the best of intentions, how are they going to stop prostitution going underground?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • fender4eva

      Prostitution SHOULD be underground in Iceland. It’s warmer………

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  35. Angela

    First off let me say I have no problem with anyone involved in a same sex relationship, each to their own I say.
    I do however, have a problem with someone saying you have to accept my lifestyle but I am not going to accept the lifestyle of women who choose to earn a living through prostitution or by being a stripper or the life style of men who choose to use these services.
    Sure I understand that there is an element of some women being forced into this life style but I am sure there are many others who do so willingly, why does this politician expect everyone to accept her choices but she does not have the same respect to accept what others choose to do??

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Mooner

      I suspect that person would argue that homosexuality is not a choice.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Jennifer

      You’re putting this all on the shoulders of the PM on the basis that she’s a lesbian, rather than seeing the massive number of citizens who support the ban. This isn’t one woman’s vendetta against smut, this is an entire country acknowledging that the sex industry is just another avenue for the oppression of women, and perpetuates a view of women as sexual commodities. Australia, England, and America have yet to realise this, a fact which baffles me completely.

      Your implication is that this woman should already be grateful to the rest of society for accepting her abnormal lifestyle, and should therefore accept every other person’s ‘lifestyle’, which stripping and prostitution are not. Eating junk food is a lifestyle choice. Stripping and prostitution are industries, primarily run by men (notice the male club owner quoted in the article) hiring women to perform sex acts on men. It is in no way empowering, it is purely degrading. Having the freedom of choice to be sexually active with your choice of partners is what feminism is about, not taking all your clothes off at the beck of any man who has the cash.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • Angela

        “This isn’t one woman’s vendetta against smut, this is an entire country”
        How do you know it is the ENTIRE country? It may only be a small group of very vocal people who oppose it. My original intention was not to offend anyone about gay relationships it was more to point out that if you ask for and expect tolerance for how you conduct your lifestyle you should show the same courtesy to how others choose to live theirs.

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • Lulu

          Angela, the article says “A 2007 poll found that 82% of women and 57% of men support the criminalisation of paying for sex – either in brothels or lapdance clubs – and fewer than 10% of Icelanders were opposed.”

          I don’t think that is ‘a small group of very vocal people’.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Angela

            So you are saying that they asked EVERY single person in Iceland??? Wow that must have been one big survey, never in my life have I heard of a survey that mangaed to get an honest opinion from an entire country.
            It could have been 30 people that were asked the question, you still get the same percentages. Statistics are very unreliable and can be manipulated to go in favour of any argument.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • Lulu

              Are you saying that a survey is only valid if it asks every single person?

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Angela

              No I am saying you cannot say that 82% of ALL women Icelanders and 57% of ALL Male Icelanders support this. I was pointing out that you don’t know how many people answered this survey so your argument that most of the country is behind this is an unknown at this point in time.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
          • Apples

            Iceland is very small, very mono culture and likeminded. They tend to agree on alot of things in a majority you would never achieve in other countries.

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
        • Apples

          To compare two people in a voluntary same-sex relationship to someone maybe choosing to be a stripper is bizzare. I cannot see how the two are related.

          If you want to choose a ‘we support people doing this, so why not that?’ a better example would help.

          I do not see how a same-sex relationship compares to an industry that has some trafficked women, is often a front for drugs and crime, exploits vulnerable women and arguably encourages violence and objectifying women.

          Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind strip clubs when run properly (as I said Scores chain in New York), I’m for freedom of choice larely (but ok with govt stepping in to protect people from themselves in certain situations). I just fail to see the connection to same-sex relationships and ‘alternative’ lifestyle choices like stripping, prostitution etc.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
          • Sally

            I think Angela was saying (please correct me if I am wrong Angela) that the leader of Iceland is living a lifestyle that is different to many others and the people have no problem with it. All good I say.
            Angela is just pointing out that there are also in all probability some of these strippers and sex workers who choose of their own free will to do what they do as their job. If one lifestyle is acceptable to everyone, why not another lifestyle??

            GD Star Rating
            loading...
            • natalie

              being gay/lesbian is about who you love, not about how you get paid…

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • rainbow

              i suspect the leader of iceland is not asking anyone for acceptance of her lifestyle.
              to compare same-sex relationships to the sex industry is an insult.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
            • Beachlife

              Are you saying that all lifestyles are acceptable?? What if I am a drug addict, which in turn leads to the neglect of my children? Should everyone accept my choice of lifestyle??

              Of course not!! Some lifestyles (eg. being a lesbian) do not harm others. Other lifestyles (eg. stripping) do harm others – as they lead to the degredation and exploitation of women.

              GD Star Rating
              loading...
  36. anonymous for this one...

    I’m not sure where I stand on totally banning sex work. My immediate reaction is – yes, it is a degrading and debasing trade for the women sex workers (and the men – let’s not forget to include the rent boys in this argument). Mia nails it when she writes ‘how many women work in the sex industry due to drug addictions and desperate circumstances rather than a go-girl desire to be empowered…’.
    But here’s a story that always makes me stop and think (it’s a bit long, so please bear with me!)…a very dear friend of mine used to be a disability support worker. She worked mainly with young people, and many of those were young men. When they were under the age of 18, they would be considered children, and could be cared for in children’s hospitals and facilities. But once they turned 18, they were considered adults, and as many needed full-time care,they were placed in adult care facilities. This almost always meant an aged care facility. These 18-20-year-olds would be living side-by-side with elderly patients (who were often experiencing dementia and severe physical ailments).
    Often, the youths would have no-one close to their own age (by decades!)to be with, to meet, to hang out with, or (importantly) to touch or to touch them. It was not unknown for care-workers to arrange a visit to a brothel for the young men, as it was the only time they could be intimate or be intimately touched. If sex work were totally banned, the scunginess of the industry would probably disappear (or, scarily, go underground). But I wonder what happens to the (admittedly small) number of compassionate functions a sex trade provides? Perhaps there is another way – registered sex therapists, perhaps. But can you imagine the bureaucracy?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Apples

      I take my hat of too sex workers who specialise in, or are open to, having some sort of a disabled client. I also have such respect for the parents who are open enough to acknowledge their childs sexual needs.

      For me sex work definetly has its place. I believe we all have a right to pursue sexual happiness, we cannot help sometimes needing sexual intimacy beyond masturbating, and a well regulated legal sex worker can certainly be appropriate.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • wollywally

        Agree with you in this apple, love ooxx

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
    • wollywally

      Love your comment, love ooxx

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  37. amandarose

    I know a couple of prostitutes ( one is my best friends sister) and she is one of those women that always let men use her. She is obese so the type of people who see her are mainly asian as it is a novelty for them. I’ve never spoke about it with her- I don’t see her very often. She has three kids with three different dads( one is a methadone patient). I’m undecided if it is a bad thing. Or a good thing that an otherwise disfunctional person can make some cash. At least her kids get fed.

    The other girl is a total mess too and doesn’t even have custody of her child. She moved out of a house i moved into and tried to befriend me and stalked me at work. I was nice enough to her but i didn’t want to befriend a nutty hooker. Pity she new where I lived.
    Do we have a right to stop people making money? I don’t think we do and I don’t think it will work. Women have something that men want and who are we to say it is wrong?

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • BS

      I agree, women do have something that men want, but then do not men have something women want. For me sex needs to be a mutual, ‘loving’ experience, and I have found that I cannot be intimate with a woman, unless I have a mental and emotional tie with her (i.e. I love her). I could never use a prostitute. I would think many men feel as I do.

      As for strippers in vivo, when I have seen them (out with the boys in my youth), I can always remember feeling sorry for them. Also, I felt slightly embarrassed for them, that they appeared to think they were so special, when they were mostly quite ordinary, and really not as stimulating as the impression they seemed to think they gave.

      Having said that, a woman should be in total charge of her own body; it should be her choice.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
      • amandarose

        How nice do you sound! I wish more men were like you. I also think it is seedy but I don’t think baning is tthe answer as it removes womens options and pushes in underground which is more dangerous. It is good to hear from a nice man

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
        • BS

          I totally agree with banning not being the answer – did the world not learn anything from America’s prohibition years?
          By the way, thanks for the compliment, but I think most men feel as I do. I have read some of your other posts (best/worst), and know what a caring type of person you are (please do not give up your kidney – sorry, had to say it). There are some fascinating posts on this topic now, and it is interesting to see perspectives from both sides. I wonder how a prostitute can enjoy a special relationship with a man, outside her working life.

          GD Star Rating
          loading...
      • wollywally

        BS I agree with amandarose, nice comment, love ooxx

        GD Star Rating
        loading...
  38. Rosie

    Thanks for posting this…I had no idea that Iceland was so politically and culturally progressive. I guess the hope is that by outlawing something like stripping or aspects of the sex industry, it won’t force women to work in an even more unregulated atmosphere. But good on them for tackling this with policy and bringing it in the spot-light.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
  39. es. oh. en. jay. aye (Sonja)

    i wonder…how do any UK feminists manage to see activities such as prostitution and lap dancing as anything BUT degrading, let alone empowering? there is nothing empowering about having a man pay heaps of money (most of which you probably won’t receive) to lust over you, and basically use you as a live sex doll… that really doesn’t make any sense to me.

    but a HUGE yay for Iceland :)

    GD Star Rating
    loading...
    • Loz

      I have to say the same thing!!

      I was once debating this with a friend who was firmly in the ‘empowerment camp’. But we couldn’t get through to each other.

      Does anyone have any insight?!

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Odina

      I believe the argument is that being in that position is empowering for the woman precisely BECAUSE the man is paying to lust over her, therefore she has something the man wants, feels good about it, etc.

      I don’t agree with that logic, but I think that’s what the general argument is.

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
    • Ms. Butlertron

      In Natasha Walters` new book Living Dolls: The Return of Sexism she interviews lap dancers and prostitues and asks them if they think the work they do is empowering. One of the lapdancers had a really good quote about the nature of power in her industry: `The men are respectable and have bank accounts. The women are naked and have debts…`

      GD Star Rating
      loading...
  40. nico

    ha ha, i opened the comments section to say that, although i know absolutely nothing about Iceland, apart from the capital is reykjavik, i do know that the prime minister is a big gay and finding that out pretty much made my entire day/year/life.
    also, the word ‘empowering’ suitable as it may be for some things, makes me just want to curl up and die. it’s been hijacked for fifteen thousand things, and the usage of it particularly annoys me when the act is not empowering at all (‘tits out for the lads’/making out with your friend to get guys (oh lord, i could go on about that until i die, it makes me rage) etc etc)
    this has digressed. in conclusion, Johanna Sigurdardottir is amazing.

    GD Star Rating
    loading...

So, we have $1000 to give away... oh, would you be interested? Well step right this way.

To go in the draw to win, just LIKE us on Facebook, enter your email address and tell us in 25 words or less why you love reading Mamamia.

Close this popup



Full Terms & Conditions