Note: As with many articles about sexual violence, particularly those that include anecdotes, this may prove triggering for some.
“Sometimes I say ‘yes’ when I’d rather say ‘no.’”
It’s been nearly 25 years, but I can still remember the beautiful Berkeley fall afternoon when I heard those shattering words. Katie and I were sitting in a coffee shop just off campus. What had started as a “friends with benefits” situation had blossomed into a sophomore year romance with this dark-eyed dance-and-philosophy double-major. Katie and I had been sleeping together for more than two months—and saying “I love you” for about a week—when she summoned up the courage to bring up this one very painful truth.
At first, I didn’t know what she meant. She spoke so softly I had to lean across the table to hear her. “I don’t want to hurt your feelings,” she said, “but sometimes I really don’t want to have sex. Sometimes I do, but not as often as you want it. And sometimes I want to tell you ‘no,’ but I can’t bring myself to do it. So I try and send you signals, hoping you can just tell how I’m feeling. But that doesn’t work, so it’s… it’s just easier to say ‘yes’ or just say nothing at all.”
My face flushed. I felt nauseated. I thought instantly of the previous night, where we’d grabbed what I thought was a hot half-hour when my roommates were both gone. Katie had seemed so passionate when we’d been making out, but then gotten very quiet once all our clothes were off. I’d told myself she wanted to have one ear cocked for the sound of a key in the door. I hadn’t considered—or hadn’t wanted to consider—the more obvious possibility: she was trying to tell me that she didn’t want to have sex.
I looked out the window. I couldn’t meet Katie’s eyes. My gaze fixed in the distance, my voice trembling, I asked what seemed the only possible question: “Are you trying to tell me I raped you?”
I was in my first women’s studies course, and just the previous week we’d been reading about sexual violence and the law. In class, where I was one of only three men, I’d felt rage thinking about all of those cruel assholes who didn’t understand that “no means no.” But now a dark and unseen possibility was opening up: not every “no” could be spoken. Maybe, I realized, sometimes even a quiet “OK” could be a “no” in disguise.
Katie started to cry. “Oh God, Hugo. No. Not rape. It’s just… I wish you could tell the difference between when I really want you and when I’d just rather be held.” She began to cry harder. “Fuck. It’s all my fault,” she wept. “I can’t expect you to be a mindreader. I’m so sorry.”
I begged Katie not to apologize; the responsibility was all mine, I insisted. I came around to her side of the table and held her. But something had changed for both of us, and the relationship was never the same. The one time we tried to have sex after that conversation, we were both so tentative (and I had, not surprisingly, a difficult time getting hard) that we gave up halfway through. We broke up two weeks before Christmas.
Most “good guys” take a woman’s firm “No!” for an answer. (Those who don’t are best left to the ministrations of our criminal justice system.) But lots of men are like the guy I was at 19—assuming that while “no means no” anything short of a firm “no” is either a “yes” or a “keep at it, boy, because you just might get a ‘yes’ soon.” Call it male sexual legalism, the first rule of which is “All that is not expressly prohibited is assumed to be permitted.” That legalism can turn many men into accidental rapists.
While the legal standard of rape is increasingly well-defined (and what happened with Katie fell well short of that legal definition), common sense suggests that at its most basic, rape is nonconsensual sex. Too many of us, men and women alike, define consent as the absence of a clear “no,” rather than the presence of a clear, unmistakable, eager “yes.” The opposite of rape, in other words, is mutual enthusiasm.
The root of consent is the Latin consentire, which means “with feeling.” Consent is not just about words “no” or “yes”—it’s about the unambiguous presence of desire. That’s a very different and challenging standard. No, I didn’t legally rape Katie. But her reticence and my sexual legalism conspired to leave us having sex that at least some of the time fell well short of the standard of consent we should all want in our intimate lives.
I’m not putting all the blame on myself, or on men alone. It’s not fair to expect men to read minds, or even to perfectly intuit subtle body language. As I tell the teens with whom I work, a precondition for being ready for a sexual relationship is having the courage to say a firm “No” to the people you love. Overcoming the training to be an acquiescent people-pleaser is hard-but-necessary work, and because of the way we socialize girls, difficulty with saying “no” tends to be much more common among young women.
But guys have work to do also. Too many play what I call the stoplight game. Traffic signals, of course, have three colors: red for stop, yellow for caution, green for go. Good drivers are taught to stop on “red,” which functions as a “no.” But of course, even at the busiest urban intersections, no light stays red indefinitely. If you wait long enough at a stoplight, every red will become green. And when all we do is teach young men that “no means stop” when it comes to sexual boundaries, we often send them the message that if they just wait long enough (or pester, push, nag, beg, play passive-aggressive games) they’ll get the “green light” they’re so hungry for.
In both traffic and the bedroom, the most misunderstood light is yellow. Though driver’s ed classes teach that yellow means “slow down,” most of us see it as a warning to speed up to get through the intersection before the light turns red. Sexually speaking, the yellow means what it ought to mean on the road: “slow down, son.”
Most of us are good at saying “no” to something or someone we don’t like. Most (sadly, not all) find it easy to flash the red light at a creepy guy who doesn’t interest them at all. But it’s tougher to say “not yet, I’m not quite ready” or “slow down” or “maybe later” to someone to whom you’re genuinely attracted. Reflecting on the sex Katie and I had so often, I realized that she often felt rushed and pressured to go to intercourse every time. She knew how to tell me when she wasn’t in the mood to do anything sexual at all, which was when she could “flash the red light.” But on those not-infrequent occasions when she wanted to make out and “fool around” but nothing more—she had no vocabulary for that. And over and over again, I took her reticence as a sign to “try harder” rather than to slow down. The blame for that rested on both of us.
Determining what another person really wants isn’t as easy as it should be. It’s further complicated by the reality that many women (and more than a few men) want to make their partners feel good—even if they don’t desire sex itself. Distinguishing between the desire to be desired, the desire to please a partner, and the desire for sex itself isn’t easy for any of us. Sometimes we need to do more than talk about what we want—we also need to clarify for ourselves and our lovers why we want it. That’s not easy, but it’s essential. We deserve that clarity.
Katie and I lived on different sides of campus; we each walked home separately from that devastating conversation in the café. I remember the guilt and the sadness I felt on that walk, but I also remember the determination I felt. I liked sex—I loved sex—but I knew I’d rather never have it again than have it with someone who was only doing it to soothe me, to please me, or because she couldn’t find the words to say “no” or “not now.” To the best of my imperfect ability, even at my most promiscuous, I have sought to live up to that promise I made to myself on the long walk home through the Berkeley streets.
I knew I hadn’t committed any crime. But the sense of sadness—tinged with disgust—at what Katie and I had conspired to allow to happen made me feel very much like an accidental rapist. Years of working with other men around issues of consent and sexuality have taught me I’m not the only one to have felt those feelings.
We all deserve better.
This post first appeared on The Good Men Project here and has been republished with full permission
Please note if this post or any of the comments bring up any issues for you, or if you need to speak to someone please call the NSW Rape Crisis Centre on 1800 424 017. It does not matter where about you live in Australia, they will take your call and, if need be, refer you to a service closer to home.
Hugo Schwyzer serves as co-director of the Perfectly Unperfected Project, a campaign to transform young people’s attitudes around body image and fashion. He lives with his wife, daughter, and six chinchillas in Los Angeles. Hugo blogs at his eponymous website and at Healthy Is the New Skinny.






Comments
193 Comments so far
BqmwJj Major thankies for the blog article.Really looking forward to read more. Keep writing.
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You should have your nuts removed. It is people like you that will try to push society to have a legal contract before two people have sex… every time… even when married. Rape is when someone says no or are not able to say yes or are not of legal age or mind to give consent. Accidental rape? Nope, not even close. You’re not even guilty of being insensitive. But after this article you are most certainly guilty of being a nancy.
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Oh for God’s sake. Any woman who isn’t mature enough to be able to make her feelings clear about when she does and doesn’t want to have sex is too immature to be in sexual relationships. I’m a 23yr old woman and I can’t believe how angry the anecdote at the start of this article made me. It’s good I suppose that it made you think and changed you into a more compassionate man. But this Katie sounds like a right fool. I expect no man to be a mind reader, why are women (apparently) so terrified of hearing their own voices say things that they think society or other people don’t want to hear?
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She was right, he’s not a mindreader and shouldn’t have to be, but seriously? There are a hundred reasons why a woman won’t specifically yell NO in a guy’s face if she doesn’t want it. Saying that is extremely naive.
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There is a thing called “Implied Consent” that exists within a couple that has been together for a while. It exists because saying “Yes” out loud to your SO explicitly EVERY TIME is ri-god-damn-diculous.
I have no idea what the issue is here. Let it go. It was 25 years ago. You didn’t conspire over anything. She lacked the ability to make her feelings known at the tender age of 19 or 20. Its a life lesson that she got to learn while being with a really nice guy. End of non-story.
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How can you be so heartless? An incident like this would be scarring. Shame on you for having no empathy. Shame on you.
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So, Cerberus, a man is at fault if he is arrogant enough to think he may have raped a female. He has been taught in his WOMEN’S studies course that he has just committed rape but he shouldn’t even think about that? He should be sensitive to her feelings. Isn’t that what he’s doing? She shouldn’t have to take any responsibility for not using her super communicative skills to tell him what she wants or doesn’t want. If females freeze up, as has been suggested and they can’t even tell a bf what they want, then what hope have they got of running a corporation or a country. Apparently it must be quite common since you know exactly what he should have done and you should do. Absolutely ignore your own self and think only of her. Yep. What a bastard. Aren’t men hopeless. Imagine a man treating a female equally. Like he would a man. Men just don’t get equality because they still think that females can’t think or speak for themselves. But what makes even less sense is that we know A Woman Needs a Man Like a Fish Needs a Bicycle. So what the hell was she doing wasting her time with him and getting RAPED for it. He DID RAPE her.
She did NOT at ANY time give her consent to sex nor did he ask for it. Every time a man has sex with a female he must get a categorical yes and they must discuss what will happen. Not doing so is clearly rape and I am CERTAIN Ms. Freedman would agree. Just because she didn’t say no doesn’t mean she says yes. He has probably even bought her a glass of wine with dinner and had sex afterwards which makes him guilty of administering a stupefying drug and rape. I bet the sly bloke has the typical apologist attitude of the rapist (as some female said of me in another post). He has probably even touched her sexually when she’s asleep. If he were any sort of man he would have turned himself in and copped the punishment he deserves. We NEED a hypersensitive RAPE culture to counter the existing RAPE culture. Rape is so prevalent you must know 4 or 5 yourself. Isn’t it like 28% of females will suffer sexual assault in their lives? Or maybe it was 98%. I know feminists did a survey of a university and found 86% of female students had been raped. What makes it even worse is that a male professor applied the same criteria and found 78% of men had been raped (by females). So clearly it would have been difficult NOT to be raped at that uni but, thank heavens, they are all survivors. So, obviously, with that sort of rape culture about we should be hyper vigilant. We know men are sex crazed beasts who think of sex about 7 times a second. Even if they say I Love You after only 8 months, it’s just to trick you to have sex (see latest Cosmo). You can tell the rapists though. A good sign are the blokes who read men’s magazines. You can tell straight away they are misogynists because they love looking at female bodies so they hate females. Of course, when the same bodies are in a female magazine it’s completely different. Like Sophie Dahl. Or photos of scantily clad men in Cosmo. Men just don’t “GET” equality, do they? Thank Heavens you are here to put us right. And we know females only have sex because they see it in music video clips and such. If these things weren’t around the situation would never have arisen in the first place. And she would not have suffered so cataclysmically from a typically insensitive man who only thinks of himself. Why wasn’t he more sensitive BEFORE raping her? What should he have done BEFORE having sex with her? Tell us so we may be enlightened.
But it’s all part of the same problem. Rotten Bastard men treat females as sex objects. Females don’t want sex, they want love.
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I disagree with the whole “women don’t want sex, they want love”
That dismisses the opinion of any woman who’s ever had casual sex ever.
Also, if you’re getting any advice from Cosmo about men you need some serious help.
Bring a Cosmo magazine to an honest man and you’ll understand.
Also, truth be told I’m all for the whole “YES MEANS YES AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS A NO”
But what with all the slut shaming that goes around on a daily basis I’d have to say that it’s difficult for young women to be forward with their sexual desires
That puts everything on a woman to initiate sex. Ask yourself: “How many times have you initiated sex?”
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I… wow… where do I begin on this. Let’s start here:
Women want sex AND love. FTFY.
And just because we want sex (when consenting) doesn’t mean we want ‘only’ sex or ‘always’ sex. We want healthy, mutual, consensual sex and love and friendship etc… and there is nothing unhealthy about wanting any of those things. The ability for EITHER party to say no to a sexual encounter of any kind is just as healthy, but it is not generally promoted in women. This is the key societal problem being scrutinized here.
I didn’t read anything that would suggest the pressure this girl felt came from her SO. It was an internal gender role that was learned over many years. This frame of mind hurt her and it hurt her SO. They were BOTH victims in this situation.
I for one am so proud that this man can be introspective enough to see this as an issue that needs to be addressed by BOTH genders for the sake of BOTH genders.
In no way do I feel like this situation constituted a rape. There was no premeditation, there was no intent. He thought he was sharing something amazing with his SO and he was mistaken. Let me say again: they were BOTH victims in this situation. Let’s not degrade victims of actual rapes because it is convenient to side with the girl here. I have been the victim of genuine forceful coercion by an abusive ex where I truly was too scared of him to say no, and I would in no way equate this man to that jerk.
I am absolutely baffled at the amount of assumptions you are making about this man’s character. To assume he “probably even bought her a glass of wine with dinner and had sex afterwards” is both irrelevant and unwarranted. To suggest that a glass of wine == drugging someone is out of line. This accusation is merely the flip side of victim blaming. It’s a cop-out. Rape has NOTHING to do with alcohol. It has everything to do with INTENT. If someone buys you a glass of wine WITHOUT the intent to rape you, it’s not relevant to the conversation here.
And to say that “We know men are sex crazed beasts who think of sex about 7 times a second.” is pathetic. No, they are not. Your attempt to label them as such shows that you are also CONTRIBUTING to the rape culture. You consistently project that all men are sex fiends, and this is clouding your judgement and discriminating against an entire gender before you are even starting the conversation. You have objectified men as monsters. You seem to see men as all rapists waiting to be caught, and this is part of the problem.
Rape culture does not imply that you are either a rapist or a victim. It implies that society has placed expectation by gender as far as when we (both men and women) should want sex, and what power we have in our sexual experiences. Instead of labeling all men as rapists in waiting, please consider that there are plenty of men and women out there who genuinely care about respecting their SO, like this author, and that we are all working against very negative stereotypes about gender roles in order to accomplish this. Conversations like this article are vital to challenging those gender roles and accepted behaviors, and it’s dialog like this that will change things, not irrational, incoherent ramblings about how all men are “rotten bastards”. Please take your unfounded vitriol somewhere else.
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For the love of all that is sacred to you, don’t bother feeding the woman hating troll. Look at this person’s moniker and join the names together. Patriarchy. This is not the first time or place that this man has written a very long winded narrative on what’s wrong with women. I’d say he hate reads a lot and then comments to stir the pot.
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There is so much sarcasm and satire in your comment, that I’m not at all sure what you are actually trying to say / argue.
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This is such an important and eye-opening piece, and I am so glad you had the courage to share it.
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Thank you so much for writing this. I’ve experienced this so many times and to have a man write about it is profound. I feel like every guy should read this.
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I liked this too. I didn’t expect the comments to be so opposed to the idea. I particularly enjoyed consent being “with feeling”.
To me the arguments seemed incredibly modest: we should pay a lot of attention to each other and try to be clear because the word “yes” or “OK” on its own doesn’t give a person enough information about everything that’s going on.
Consent should be contextually mediated. This just seems to me like a good idea.
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This is exceptionally insightful. I really appreciate that something like this has been written and that you had the courage to write it. The fact that it was written by a man, believe it or not, makes a big difference. Having a similar article written by a woman wouldn’t have the same effect. Mainly because its easy to toss it out a feminist man-hating rant and rationalize ignoring it based off of the ‘when will it end?’ logic. Thank you, sincerely.
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What better time to be completely honest with a new partner than at the beginning of a relationship? Getting caught in the “yes..no..maybe” routine can lead to a life of misery for both partners if left long enough.
Men aren’t mind readers – make it eay for us.
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This article sickens me on many levels. I have lived sexual assault, having personally stopped a man from sexually assaulting a female friend, so sexual assault in any form evokes a visceral reaction deep within my soul that shakes me to the core. At the same time, some of the comments break my heart when I think of how experiences like this aid in expanding the definition of rape within our culture. While I do acknowledge the tragic fact that many rapes happen without violence, and can involve people who know & generally care about one another, I fear for how this article is being perceived. The guy seemed very kind and gentle, but he reinforced his partner’s irrational anxiety. As others have said, there are many places within relationships where a partner shares an activity with the other which they have no interest in (cliches being: watching sports, going shopping, going to a social event), and to portray sex as something taboo if both partners are not 100% motivated at the moment. Society needs to teach the youth of both genders to embrace and find comfort in their sexuality. For young men, they should be taught that penile-vaginal penetration/fellatio are not the end all be all of masculinity, and that sex is not a goal to be “accomplished” as if it were a part of a video game. Young women need coaching in expressing their true desires, be it for or against sex at a specific point. In western society there is a notion that rape is worse than death (St. Johns 2004), so to throw around the term “rape,” and for the male in this article to react the way he did (did i…. RAPE you?) probably exacerbated the anxiety and pain for the woman spoken of in this article. What began as a young woman expressing a desire for her lover to attempt to be more observant of body language, and her struggle with guilt & self blame in regard to insecurity & her inability (as a modern, strong, independent woman) to voice something, which should be easy, to her partner (ie: “not tonight, baby”), turned into an overly dramatic exchange where both parties felt a deep shame that inevitably ended a beautiful connection between two people. Many young people within the Westernized Americanized culture have a lot of trouble expressing a healthy sexual identity, and creating a hypersensitive rape culture isn’t what needs to be done. That in no way is meant to take away from those who have been survivors of sexual assault, but having taken part in sexualized violence classes, seminars, and discussions, I’ve seen how our young people are being taught dangerous ideas by well natured people who many times are survivors of the same violence they teach about, which in theory would be a good thing because it would make them sensitive to the issue (which in some cases is very true), but instead creates a hostile environment that only damages healthy sexual expression. Healthy sexual encounters are more complicated than whether she says yes or no, but people need to be responsible for their own behavior. Women need to have the access to resources that empower them to be able to be vocal and enthusiastic about whether they are going to offer consent or not, bottom line. At the same time, if a woman feels she has been the victim of sexual assault by someone, and no one had ever taught her how to express herself as a sexually active woman, it is narrow minded and does not get at the root of the problem to focus on the perpetrator. Every case is different, so I cannot generalize except to say that the true way to make a change is to focus energy on the community that failed to raise men and women who can own their own sexuality, regardless if it is being secure in either saying or hearing “no” from a lover. Focusing on individuals does nothing but offer stories for people to relate to, but opening discussion on how society can heal itself offers a map toward a better future.
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I agree to a certain extent, but at least it started a conversation that desperately needed to be had. I’m just glad we as a society are at a stage where we can even talk about these ‘taboos’.
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I rambled quite a lot so I appreciate if you even skimmed what I wrote. That being said, I agree 100% that North America needs more dialogue and open conversations on these matters. Physical intimacy is a beautiful thing, which is why it is so insane that the American culture I live in feels it necessary to be hush-hush about sex.
Instead of abstinence only education, maybe educators should have curriculums that promote self expression, confidence, and respect as a part of sexual identity & knowledge. Sex is more than genital stimulation, and we should treat it as such.
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She looks like she knows what she wants! Its a good message auebcse too many guys just go along with what the girl wants auebcse its easy and maybe they want sex but they’re not really making a conscious choice.
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Thanks for voicing this. I really thought it was a good counter-point to the article itself. This is not to say I disagreed with the article completely, as a man I think it’s always good to remind ourselves to be sensitive to our partners needs and desires. Framing this as rape though seems both problematic for the reasons you specified and also, frankly egotistical. He takes her/their problems to comunicate and makes it all about him. He learned a good lesson about enthusiastic consent, but what did she learn out of it: Don’t bring it up because he’ll think you’re accusing him of rape and end the relationship. Not exactly a healthy lesson for a young woman. I’d like to think that I would have handled that conversation quite a bit different than the author did. I would have apologized for being insensitive. but then I’d like to think I would have reassured her that it was always ok to say “no” or “not yet” and that I’d never resent her for it. What they needed was better communication, not guilt or blame. I say all this not having been there, and I can’t say with certainty that I would have done better in his place. I’m not immune from that same arrogance that takes every problem and says “this must be my fault.”
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Thank you RBAFF, that was very well said!
I am sorry you have gone through the experiences you mentioned, but I am proud of you for being so involved in (and wise about) this issue.
Knowledge and open conversation is key here, and it’s refreshing to see someone address it so well.
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This article hit a chord with me. I teach classes on what I guess can be called “rape avoidance”, but they’re really about boundaries; how to develop them, own them, communicate them, and, lastly, defend them if necessary.
It’s amazing to me how many young people (men and women both) don’t take the time to decide on their own boundaries. Maybe they haven’t been taught how (I was taught a little too well, and, as a teenager and young adult, had to learn how to relax my boundaries, which were artificially extended and reinforced).
In one of my classes, I had a guy ask me “What if she says no, but you think she means yes?” I told him, “Then you stop until she says yes.” Which, now that I’m thinking about it, may have been misleading. Although there are still many women who are so unable to take ownership of their own sexuality that they will play that dangerous, destructive little game. And no man should play it with them.
But your traffic light/sexual legalism metaphors have given me pause for thought, and I think I will paraphrase them in my next class. Because I think you’re right that some boys will simply keep pushing.
I’m extremely fortunate, and I want to just tell this story, because I don’t think this kind of story gets told enough;
I was raised in a lesbian commune that ran a rape crisis centre. I was taught, from a very early age, (and, not directly, but through subtext) that heterosexual sex always equals rape, and that consenting to it is either self-victimization or collaboration with the Enemy. Imagine my horror when I grew up and learned I was straight.
I was also socially inept, and probably gave off lots of subconscious “Don’t touch me!” vibes, which scared off the boys until I was in my late teens. At which point, through a group I joined that did a lot of camping events, I managed to break down my phobias, and take ownership of my sexuality, by fooling around with… probably a hundred different boys and young men, slowly pushing my boundaries over a period of about 6 years.
And, in all that time, with all those boys, and all that beer, I was never raped. Not once. I was never even made uncomfortable. Not once.
I am _very_ lucky. I am _very_ good at communicating and establishing my boundaries. But I want to honour and praise all those dozens of young men who, with incredible patience and, I’m sure, quite a bit of physical discomfort, stopped the moment I asked them to, and never even made me feel guilty about it.
Yes, that’s what they were _supposed_ to do, and, perhaps I shouldn’t make a big deal that they did. But, considering their social and biological pre-programming, I think a little kudos are in order.
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Reading how seriously you took the idea of even raping someone, was amazing and inspiring. I’m not sure what happened was rape really. I have to say as someone who feels she has been raped in an intoxicated situation by a good friend/guy she was in love with reading this gives me hope and really lets me know that this guy did not treat the situation correctly.
I appreciate your endeavor and that you would write this at all.
The situation is sad.
I feel bad for the guy I think raped me. I think he thought oh because I know she wants it because she loves me it doesn’t matter how I treat her. And then the question becomes consent to do what?
Anyways, I just wanted to say thank you.
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I understand how you feel about the situation, but you shouldn’t feel guilty. Girls need to speak up for themselves. If you had been being very aggressive, then yes, you should feel guilty. But women (or even men) cannot expect someone to stop just because they feel they want them to stop.
Let me use this example–If you’re having an intense conversation with someone and suddenly they don’t want to go any farther, they say so or walk away, right? Same thing in the bedroom. Say something or walk away or push them away. Don’t just take it.
This is the problem with a lot of young people–they’re not ready for sex. To be ready doesn’t mean you’re just ready to do it, it also means you’re ready to say no when you don’t want to do it. I’m glad you pointed that out.
But by no means are you an accidental rapist. I just don’t think that’s fair to you or anyone else put in that situation.
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Ideally, both women and men should be able to assert their sexual boundaries in order to maintain healthy relationships and healthy selves, but, as someone who has a history of sexual trauma, I can assure you that that is unfortunately not always a possibility.
PTSD and the dissociation and avoidance associated with the disorder can make it nearly impossible for a person to communicate his or her nonconsent no matter how desperately he or she desires to. I clearly explain the situation to anyone with whom I am going to be sexually intimate and assert myself when possible, but it is not always enough.
I think the issue here is not that women (and men!) simply need to “speak up for themselves;” rather, they must be taught that they *can* say “no.”
Both partners shouldn’t be looking for an absence of that “no” but for a clear and enthusiastic “yes.”
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I believe it mistaken to think that both people should be looking for an enthusiastic yes…with tail wagging. It is very simple its called personal responsibility…accountability! Male or Female we need to exercise it and often.
PTSD…well maybe you do not need to be in a sexual relationship until YOU DEAL with YOUR ISSUES! Sometimes one does not feel like hugging but your partner might need a hug. It’s not a violation if I share my body to comfort him! Sometimes I might not be “in the mood” for sex (and him too) but I normally try to give it a go. I mean really is an attempt at an embrace with my loved one (and an orgasm to boot) really, really what we need to be talking about when we are referring to the serious subject of rape or sexual assault?
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I’m sorry, but I don’t need some stranger with an attitude to tell me when I can or cannot be in a sexual relationship. I am an adult and do not need proselytizing from some adolescent who thinks she can pass judgment on those who have been sexually abused. What happened to me isn’t just going to “go away.” I am not giving up my sexuality and my life because of someone else’s cruelty towards me. The right partner will undestand and help me like an adult.
There is a HUGE difference between you just deciding to have sex to comfort your boyfriend and a person with PTSD not being able to consent because he or she is dissociating. Also, hugging does not equal sex, and it’s insulting that you label them as equally intimate.
Oh, and you claim to be talking about the “serious subject of rape or sexual assault,” and yet you had no problem criticizing me, someone who has been sexually abused? Gods, you are ignorant.
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Dara, way to jump on the victim-blaming bandwagon! Your lack of knowledge about PTSD shows that you’ve never gone through a similar issue, so please don’t pass judgement in ignorance.
You pat yourself on the back for having some sex when you’re not in the mood, but you overlook the fact that you are still consenting. There is a big difference between simply unenthusiastic sex and unconsenting sex. Don’t confuse “not in the mood” with being uncomfortable with a specific sexual encounter.
So, no, “an attempt at an embrace with [a] loved one” is not what we need to be talking about here. Nor is it.
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Also, if ‘I wasn’t that into it, but felt compelled’ is rape, then if I go to my girlfriend’s sister’s wedding, is that kidnapping?
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This is at best a sermon on the ills of the lack of communication in a relationship. At worst it says that women need to be silently understood like horses and are incapable of speaking for themselves like human beings.
If ‘I wasn’t that into it, but did it anyway’ is rape, then most couples rape each other (at the same time) on a regular basis. Also the author comes a little bit as a jackass.
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Nowhere does the author say that “I wasn’t that into it, but did it anyway” is rape, nor does he say that women need to be silently understood. What he does, in fact, underline is that sometimes PEOPLE are unable to express themselves the way that they would wish. He’s asking that we recognize that things can happen or can be performed by us and affect others in ways that we did not intend.
Also, on your last comment- Firstly, if that’s the case in most couples, then those couples shouldn’t be engaging in those sexual acts and are quite honestly not functioning healthily but, secondly, there’s a huge difference between not being into something and not being ready for something.
You might prefer sex act A over sex act B, but if you’re doing A not because you want to but because you feel pressured by your partner or guilty for not pleasing them, or being a “tease,” then that’s a situation of entrapment and will most likely lead to feelings of regret, shame, etc. in whatever form they happen to come.
The author wants us to promote communication in our relationships, in all forms. Yes, that means reading into subtexts but it also means being okay with hearing and saying “no.” He accidentally helped build expectations for their relationship that ended up ruining it because she wasn’t ready for that. He’s not saying that women have to be silently understood; moreover, he goes out of his way to say it works both ways, and applies to all hetero-, homo-, and other kinds of relationships. I think you are reading only what you want to read from this and that is dangerous in more than one way.
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First of all, I cried when I read this. Second of all, rape is not the right word to use for this situation because of the inherent association with violence and violation that the term has. However I was recently in a similar situation, and I believe there should be a word for the circumstance, because it is a real problem and a potential destroyer of great relationships.
Here was my experience.
I am a 21 year old female and I pride myself over being both an active feminist and a confident bed-mate. I recently entered a relationship with a very loving and respectful man who happens to have the same sexual appetite as me (we both like to have a lot of sex, and often). We also tend to be experimental during our sessions.
A few nights ago we tried anal sex. He has previous experience with anal from being with a past girlfriend who enjoyed it quite a lot. I have tried anal before but without any real success. We had both been planning on doing it and it seemed to be a good idea when he asked me if I wanted to try it that night. However after a half a minute of penetration I realized that I was not enjoying it at all. What was supposed to be a mutually enjoyable experience had turned into something that was very painful for me. However, I did not ask him to stop. Instead I choose to keep him pleased by attempting to hold back any sign that I wasn’t happy. I did this despite the fact that all I really wanted to do was cry and ask him to stop. Let me say this once more; I am not the kind of person who would be expected to let a man continue to penetrate me when I am not enjoying it. Neither would he have expected me to let him continue if I wasn’t happy. However I did not want him to feel like he was hurting me, and I wanted to be in a sense sexually “on par” with him. So I let him finish.
Afterwards I felt absolutely ashamed and guilty for having let him do that to be, but I did not tell him that I didn’t want to have anal again. He could tell that something was wrong in the end, but I assured him that everything was okay.
I am sickened by myself that I let this happen, and am even more sickened by the fact that I let someone whom I have deep feelings for do this to me. I am more afraid though, that telling him about how I actually felt during anal sex will cause him to have the same reaction as the author of this article. This issue needs to be brought to greater awareness, although, as I said before, rape is not the right term for it. There is a standard to please in the bedroom that many women, and men for that matter, find hard to escape. When in reality we know that honesty is the key to healthy relationships, this idea often doesn’t transfer to the bedroom because of such standards. It is a societal issue that needs to be brought to the forefront of the conversation when it comes to modern relationships and expectations.
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People seem to be troubled thinking this article trivializes rape. However, I don’t see it that way at all. He’s discussing the nature of consent, the socialization of girls and women and how HE experienced this conversation with his FWB partner. He’s allowed to feel guilty, if he feels like a rapist, that’s how he feels.
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I have been fighting for women’s rights all my life. When did sex become “his” responsibility? Physical violence leading to rape is a crime! Her not telling him that she doesn’t want to is a sad indication of a woman not standing up for herself , but she is not a child and is responsible for her own behavior.
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It’s not *just* a man’s or *just* a woman’s responsibility. Way to not get the entire point of the article and come off as insensitive. The relationships we have are not black nor white.
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But that’s not the point, see? The whole idea of rape is a traumatic experience. Was she really traumatized? No. Uncomfortable? Sure, but that’s something they have to work out from a relationship standpoint. That doesn’t make this guy some sort of “rapist”, just because he hinted towards sex and she consented.
I feel like we’re getting to the point where a girl could send a guy to prison for half his natural life just because they broke up and she decided she didn’t enjoy sex as much as the new guy.
Simply put, her saying “yes” is accepting what comes with it, and accepting that she gave consent. People being afraid to say “no”? This happens in other aspects of the relationship as well. It’s a matter of her making sure her feelings are communicated, which she did later. It’s good she told him, but that does not mean under any circumstances that he is some sort of sick criminal who traumatized her.
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This. Exactly this. That man had nothing to feel bad about. If she didn’t want sex, she should’ve said so. Just because she lacks the lady-balls to tell him what she wants doesn’t mean he should have to suffer for it. And what was she possibly thinking telling him this? She sounds like an awfully thoughtless person.
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Reducing yourselves to victim-blaming?
Reflect. Have you ever felt like you couldn’t say something to someone’s face- the way you actually thought they looked in that dress, the way you were uncomfortable with their political views, so on and so on- because you were afraid of what they might think of you?
Take that feeling and amplify it. You feel uncomfortable, a little bad for thinking/reacting the way you are, and you don’t want to hurt the other person’s feelings- but now you’re having sex with them and you feel like you’re supposed to be doing what they want you to do, regardless of how you feel about those actions. That’s what this girl experienced.
If you’ve ever in your life felt the slightest uncomfortable in those kinds of societal situations where you couldn’t truly express yourself for fear of the reaction, you’ve felt, in however minute a part, what she felt. Insensitive remarks like yours belittle the victims and continue to spread the message that it’s the victim’s fault for not speaking up or walking out. Sometimes we can’t push ourselves to do what we want to do. If you refuse to admit that you’ve ever felt weak in that way, then you’re lying. Nobody’s so strong that they’ve never felt humiliated in any form.
Comments like yours, madam, are awfully thoughtless. I hope you never have to deal with sexual assault and the terrible things it does to both parties in any form but I do hope you take the time to actually feel what she felt, what he felt in that situation.
-A young, male, straight observer.
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What a fantastic article, Hugo.
I think I would be hard-pressed to find a girl in my circle of friends who couldn’t empathise with this situation on some level.
It can definitely be hard to say ‘no’ to the ones we love, because we love them and we don’t want them to in turn feel rejected or feel bad about themselves.
I think it can be hard for women because we generally have lower sex drives than our male partners. When we begin relationships, our hormone and excitment levels are sky-high and our sexual drive is much higher. Then when the ‘honeymoon period’ is over and our hormone levels are back to normal, we want it less and it can be hard to say to a partner that we want to have sex less than we did before. It’s obvious how hearing that would make someone feel awful.
I plan to forward this to my friends, and possibly my boyfriend!
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I can believe that you have such a circle of friends, I know of a lot of women who would identify with this article. Plenty who would also try to blame sex drive on hormones! When you met your “hormones” were all a gush because…uh, what you were thinking and what you wanted. Got what you wanted and your “reward box” went nearly empty. When you train a dog you are enthusiastic about play and throwing treats. After the dog knows his commands and expresses a level of obedience you still give commands but the treats go missing.
If you use your vagina as a transaction piece, however abstract, your sense of desire will certainly lesson as the dogs new tricks become the dogs regular behavior.
When you truly take responsibility for yourself, own your sexuality, own your sense of self, own your financial life, the drama queen…”I must suffer (to protect someone from feeling rejection, etc)” will disappear from your reasoning altogether.
Women how love to be wined and dined, bought drinks, courted, flattered, constantly reassured, taken care of, made into house wives, those who give a damn about what “he makes”/drives/does for a living, will no doubt totally miss most of what I am saying here since they are lacking in a what I believe a true sense of equality of the sexes and responsibility of human beings requires. If you do not see yourself as a truly equal human being of course you are not going to speak up often if at all.
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The title is intentionally and offensively provocative. SHAME ON YOU mamamia.com
Resorting to these attention grabbing tactics is nothing short of disgusting and highly upsetting for someone who has experienced ACTUAL (rather than the clutching at straws “accidental”) sexual abuse.
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This isn’t rape at ALL, accidental or not. I really feel like it shouldn’t even be placed in the same category. The term was just kind of a distraction from the point of the article, which is that men and women need to learn to get over our childhood gender programming and communicate our wants and needs to each other (at least I think).
I feel like a lot of what was said in the article about the socialization of girls to be people pleasers and to have trouble saying no is important and true. We should be raising our girls to be strong, independent, well spoken, and assertive, and they should easily be able to say the sentence, “Hey, I would love to just sit here and cuddle and make out, but I’m not in the mood for sex tonight, honey” without feeling the least bit bad about it. And we should raise our boys not to think that sex is some sort of prize that they get for perseverance, and that women should be respected, as human beings as not conquests. All this is significant stuff that we have a LOT of work to do to accomplish.
BUT, there was also some aspects of this article that I totally disagree with. Most importantly, the idea that sex should only ever be had between two people who both want it exactly equally, and never if someone is only lukewarm and not really in the mood. As part of an adult relationship, where there is give and take, and you care about someone and do things to make them happy, you absolutely can sometimes have sex FOR THEM, and there is nothing wrong with that. Because not everyone is always going to be in the mood equally. Maybe I’m tired, or hungry, or just kind of want to sit around in my sweats and watch TV, and sex is the last thing on my mind. But my significant other would really like to have sex with me, and he expresses to me how much it would mean to him in this particular moment. I may not be all that interested, but it would make him way happier than it would make me unhappy, so most of the time, I would do it. And that’s only because the types of relationships that I have are with men who would do the EXACT SAME THING for me. If I come into his door absolutely dying to have sex with him, and he had no real interest at that moment, but he still does it FOR ME, I have no problem with that. Because we’re part of a relationship, where we want to make each other happy and sexually satisfied. It’s part of the deal that we do things for each other. We’re a unit, and we don’t just look at things in terms of our own point of view, but we take responsibility for each other’s happiness and satisfaction. And because we’re both completely equal, and it’s a two way street, there’s no issue with doing things for each other. And assuming we’re both expressive and communicative people who would certainly tell the other one when we really affirmatively do NOT WANT to have sex, there’s no issue that we may be taking advantage of the other person. It is my ideal relationship that a man cares about me enough to do me when he doesn’t really feel like it, and vice versa. (And obviously if this is happening a lot, where one person never really WANTS sex, and is just doing it to please the other person, maybe you’re just not that into him anymore, and it’s time to break up. But that’s an entirely different story).
So be completely honest, I’m not even sure why this scene in the coffee shop had to be so dramatic. Is it really a devastating revelation that someone had sex with you when they didn’t really want to? Obviously in that situation, something had to change, so that’s when you say, “Hey, I didn’t realize you were feeling like that, please tell me in the future, let’s learn how to better communicate and give each other clear signals, etc.” But to feel like you raped someone who was a full participant in the sex but was just thinking in HER MIND that she kind of wished that you would pick up her signals that she wasn’t that into it? That’s a big overreaction to what was actually happening there, in my opinion.
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Isn’t there a difference between participating in an act because of a genuine desire at that time to please or do something for your partner and participating in an act with hesitation because you don’t actually want to do it at all?
I’m saying that if you have motivation for it, then fine–motivation is willingness. But if there’s hesitation, that’s not willingness.
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But that certainly still isn’t rape. Guys have just as much unwilling assumed obligations as well. How many guys douse themselves in alcohol because they can’t talk about their problems without being a “wuss” or “weak” to both genders? Probably not the greatest example. But I’ve been doing a lot of male studies, lately.
It sickens me that when people discuss gender equality, it’s how men are treated as kings or gods and women are treated as hideous slaves. It’s not like that at all. We are both repressed by the structure, but with girls, it turns to depression and with guys, it turns to crime. Everyone ignored the crime and looks at the depression, so guys become guilty until proven innocent.
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Love your comment, thank you!
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I don’t see a problem with this article at all. Hugo is simply expressing his feelings of what I think is a horrible situation. I can imagine how disgusted with himself he must have felt when she told him and it’s a good thing he did feel that way otherwise he would be an a**hole. But, if you don’t want to have sex you must say so. I am 24 and have been with my partner for 6 years. I say no to him about 60% of the time as I don’t crave sex as much as him. I do feel bad sometimes for saying it especially if it has been a while but I still don’t have to do it whenever he asks it. However, and without sounding like I am contradicting myself, I am also guilty occasionally of having sex just because he wants it but I also realise it is a choice I make. I can completely understand how Hugo must have felt like he had done something wrong. Hell, I feel guilty for making my partner come to the shops with me, cook dinner or even do the dishes sometimes when I know he doesn’t want to! Relationships are all about communication, if you don’t say it they will never know and if you can’t be absolutely honest with your partner about everything, it will never work.
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Despite all the haters I actually enjoyed this article as it brought up some interesting issues. It seems like so many commenters are too busy being offended and outraged by the use of the word rape that they miss the point of the article. Maybe he used the wrong word and it misled and offended people but the article still raises interesting points nonetheless, in my opinion.
I have written on here before about my first sexual experience when I was 17. The guy i was seeing at the time pushed and pushed for it until I eventually agreed to sleep with him on a particular night. When that night came around I was scared and it felt wrong so I told him I didn’t want to anymore. He talked me into it and I agreed. It definitely wasn’t rape because it was consensual but I was unsure about it, it didn’t feel quite right and I didn’t enjoy it. He knew I was a bit unsure but still persisted as he was desperate to have sex. I felt obliged and felt that I’d feel guilty if I didn’t do it, like I’d led him on somehow.
I wish I had been more assertive. I wish I’d just told him no, that I wasn’t ready and that it felt wrong. But i was young and naive and I felt pressured. Some questions from this experience are raised: Did I do the wrong thing but succumbing and giving in when I wasn’t sure:? Did he do the wrong thing by pushing too much when he knew I had some doubts? Maybe we both did the wrong thing, I still don’t know. At the end of the day this was a decade ago, I’ve well and truly moved on and these days I’m much more mature, direct and assertive. If I really don’t want to have sex, I don’t.
Despite this, whenever these articles appear it always takes me back to that first time as a young naive 17 year old and makes me wonder about that night…..
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Thanks for sharing your experience… I too thought the article raised issues which were good to ponder on … I don’t know anyone who hasn’t wondered about the rightness or wrongness of having sex when you don’t really want to.
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I’m not comfortable with the headline – or the idea of “accidental” rape, but I do think this was a strong and interesting post which covers some issues that could do with a good airing. Men and women do communicate differently, and it can cause huge problems in intimate relationships even when everyone is genuinely trying to be decent. We should talk about that more, especially with young people.
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So many of these comments are simply loaded with rape apologism, which relies on a narrow and rigid understanding of so called “real” rape, i.e. involving physical violence/ trauma, perpetrated by a stranger or in a situation characterised by an extreme and overt power imbalance. The idea that rape can and does occur within otherwise loving relationships, by otherwise good men, with little or no physical coercion and when a power imbalance is seemingly minor or non-existent – is too often rejected out of hand, and with it, the myriad other possible experiences of non-consensual sex.
As a victim of sexual assault, I’m offended by the way others cling to narrow stereotypes about rape, silencing the women (and men) whose experience doesn’t fit the stereotype. With this silencing we lose the opportunity to learn more about the dynamics of sexual experience.
And FWIW, I don’t think the situation in the article was rape, but I see that it may well have been closer to that side of the spectrum of sexual interaction than the truly consensual. Just because it wasn’t technically (or legally) rape, does not make it unworthy of comparison or consideration.
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What pseudo academic overcomplicated rubbish. Do we have to start carting legal journals into every sexual encounter now to understand what is going on and who is doing wrong by whom? Or can it just be understood, simply, that no means no, period. Is a pretty simple word really that most adults understand is it not. Whats not to understand?
God, why is this so hard? Enough to make you want to mastabate your whole life really. Oh hang on, then you go blind. Maybe we all become monks.
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This is why I would just want to either move to Europe or cryogenically freeze myself until the nation matures. We obviously didn’t do the sexual revolution nearly as well, here. Sex is highly encourages, and then almost all forms of it is rape by the guy. Really? Who HASN’T agreed to do something they were uncomfortable with in bed or otherwise? Maybe we should be focusing on the fact that most people who turn to crime and suicide are men, and most homeless are men. Maybe that’s out of, you know, discomfort within the male gender as a whole, and instead of making sure girls never feel a bad emotion in their life, we need to be seeing what’s going on on the other side.
http://jonathanese.blogspot.com/
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Couldn’t agree more Nevernever…people believe the only ‘real’ rapes happen by strangers in parks at night. There are far too many rape apologists who make excuse after excuse so they condemn women and excuse the men because let’s face it, boys will be boys, right?
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What scares me the most is that there is obviously (reading some of the hardline posts on here) a subset of hardline feminists that actually think ANYONE are apologists for rape. And as for the ‘boys will be boys’ comment, that is just plain sexist and offensive to the huge majority of men that respect women.
I thought feminism was supposed to be about equality and respect that flows both ways. I think the hard line fringe of feminism is the most offensively sexist group I know quite frankly.
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Read a comment on the punch about marriage before no fault divorce laws and the womens rights movement (not word for word). ” men were the providers and owned women’s sexuality in return”, with the gist of the comment wishing for a return to those “halcyon” days. Please explain that. Both ends of the spectrum are equally offensive and sexist.
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I think most of us can, inadvertently, be apologists for rape. After all, most of us are products of a culture that excuses and minimises rape while glorifying aggressive “masculine” sexuality and “feminine” submission, and it takes a lot of effort and reflection to step outside that cultural influence, so yeah, pretty much anyone can be a rape apologist.
The “boys will be boys” comment was obviously not supporting the meme (which *is* sexist), more highlighting the way it has been and is still used by some (many?) to condone irresponsible and destructive behaviour on the part of men.
I truly fail to see how any of those comments can be construed as feminism = “offensively sexist”.
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Your take on al this is clearly sexist. I dont know why men are not allowed to generalise about women ever without cries of mysoginist, yet there is seemingly free reign to talk about men and masculinity like it is universally predetory, and women universally victims. If that isnt sexist, it is clear that the definition of sexism is only allowed to go one way in this country
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Rubbish. Not one of my comments generalised about men or universalises ‘predatory’ masculinity. If you got that from my comments, then your interpretation is simply skewed and you’re looking to be offended. There’s a pretty wide gulf between discussing constructions of masculinity in our culture and assassinating the character of men – individually or as a group.
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No, that’s not right Olivia, what a load of rubbish. I don’t know anyone who believes that real rape only occurs in parks by strangers at night. Where did this ridiculous idea come from? However that doesn’t mean that the situation in this scenario was rape or anything that even compares to rape.
Also, I’ve thankfully never been around anyone who has excused rape with “boys will be boys.” Seriously who are these people that you are referring to because I’ve never met them.
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What I meant in my comment about ‘real’ rapes only happening in parks by strangers is that I know of many people (some close friends included) have by the legal definition been the victims of sexual assault and it doesn’t fit with how we as a society usually think of rapists i.e sex crazed lunatics who can’t control themselves. Only a tiny minority of rapes and sexual assaults occur by strangers in the situation I described. (Note to self: must remember not to use irony in comments on blogs- seems to fly over people’s heads).
As everyone knows they are all too often end up being the partners, or relatives or dates (hence the term date rape) or someone else who is known to the victim prior to the attack/s. And the majority of the time they happen indoors.
To address concerns about sexism. Yes I am a feminist.
Do I think women should be thought of as perpetual victims? Certainly not. Are women without the ability to make responsible choices? Of course not.
My comment was simply agreeing with Nevernever that far too many people excuse sexual assaults and blame the women because she was wearing provocative clothing, because she was flirting with the guy before hand, because she went home with him, because she was drunk. People love to talk about women being responsible for their own actions in these situations but we rarely ever question what the guy was thinking or doing because well he’s a guy right? And they can’t help themselves. She lead him on so what was he supposed to think? That’s what I meant by ‘boys will be boys’. My thing is what was the guys responsibility in the situation as well as woman’s?
This is a tricky conversation to have because there is a massive spectrum of cases you can use. The situation described in this article is obviously very different to a violent attack in a park by a stranger.
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High Alcohol= Less certainty of (non violent) rape.
If the female is drunk and the male is drunk and sex happens how does one assign responsibility? Maybe without alcohol she/he would not have had sex. No one force either to drink so it becomes unfortunately hard to discern such a situation when both individuals are looked upon as equals.
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This is less about rape and more about how hard it is to communicate in intimate situations. It’s like how people have trouble discussing contraceptive use or fantasies and fetishes with their partner. In this case she was 19 or so and in her first relationship and really didn’t know how to cope with having these intimate conversations.
And, realistically, every single person in a relationship has had sex that they were feeling a bit meh about. I see it as almost part of the give and take compromise of a long term relationship.
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I’m with you on that one! 100%
That’s not saying it’s OK, but just ‘how it is’ when he want’s it and you don’t.
However, in these cases, a no would definitely be accepted. Possibly not happily, but the sex certainly wouldn’t continue from that NO. Which I’m sure it wouldn’t have in Hugo’s situation either. That, in my book, removes it from accidental rape.
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I do agree, Melissa! I’m sure my partner has had sex just to placate me on more than one occasion, that doesn’t mean I’ve accidently raped him though and the same goes for me too, sometimes you’re just tied or not interested or whatever but, you know, he wants it and it’ll make him happy so I’ll go along with it. Who hasn’t done that?!?!
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This post doesn’t quite sit right with me. Whilst I think that Hugo sounds like a beautiful person (where do you find men like him?!) I think the word rape has been taken just a little out of context.
And I know I’ll probably get ripped a new one for this, but…… surely at some stage us women need to take some responsibility. I’m not in any way making excuses for actual rape, but if you don’t want sex, communicate with your partner. And be sensible and take some responsibility for your own decisions. There are two people in every relationship/sexual encounter etc. This comes from a chick whose army brother and his mates have been majorly screwed with by some girls. (And yes, I know army boys can be the worst!) There, rant over.
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I think what Hugo was trying to say in this article was that men and women are socialized differently when it comes to negotiating sex. Men are taught to persist even when they sense or have been implicitly told no to keep trying, where as women are taught to people please and this often leads some women engaging in behaviour they don’t want to. Having been in a similar situation myself where I said no in the way a shy 16 year old can at 3 in the morning but the guy I was with refused to take no for answer because we had been kissing before that and assumed it would lead to sex. Had it lead to rape would it have been my fault for kissing him and then saying no? Or would it of been his fault for keeping going after I said no?
In sexual matters women to often get the blame even though many felt powerless or to scared to say no. In an ideal world, women would be confident and could say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ or ‘we can do this but not that’ but there is a difficult power structure between men and women and while men cannot become mind readers or experts in body language a simple ‘do you want to keep going?’ or ‘is this ok?’ or ‘we don’t have to do anything you don’t want to’ would go a long in making sure ‘accidental rapes’ didn’t happen. Just because men want to have sex and don’t want to miss an opportunity does not excuse there responsibility. It annoys me that women are always expected to police men’s sexuality. It’s a two way street. God I think everyone could benefit from a little more communication during sex.
And in regards to your comment about army men. I lived in Darwin (which is over run with young army guys) and I can tell you again that it works both ways…the girls might sometimes screw over the boys but you cannot pretend that the boys were not screwing over the girls. I heard some absolutely shocking behaviour that went on at Robinson Barracks…it was enough to make me never want to go near an AJ again. No offence to anyone who is in or knows someone in the armed forces. Some are lovely people but there are too many bad eggs for me.
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Can we please stop tarring the military with this all-inclusive brush?
The Defence Force is a direct reflection of the population it is drawn from. If you put a bunch of 18 to 25 year olds in a group you would find the same behaviors in almost all situations. They are young, they drink, they try to impress girls and their mates and occasionally they get lost in the maze of confusing young adult relationships. The same is happening in friendship groups in every town and city in Australia.
Did you know the rape rate in Defence is lower than in the equivalent civilian population? Unfortunately “Jo Blow from random town is a rapist” doesn’t get national press coverage, but “Jo Blow from the ADF” gets guaranteed airtime in every state. It’s unbalanced.
So please, how about you treat the AJ’s (Army Jerks, thanks alot) from ROBERTSON Barracks as the individuals they are, not as some conglomeration. You will probably find that if you stop with the generalizations, they will return the favor.
*rant over*
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I wonder if the report of rape is much lower in the army than the general population. Anyone know?
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It would be impossible to measure, by definition. But as a military female, with plenty of military female friends, I am pretty confident in the reporting rate. There is annual education for all members on equity, and if one or two clowns don’t toe the line the others are remarkably quick to call them on it, so it seems to be working. (All anecdata, of course.) The team doesn’t function if any if it’s members don’t function.
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As I said some are lovely people. Some are certainly not. Like anything in life there are bad eggs. Both my brother in-laws are in the army. I’ve had many friends who were in the army. Tends to happen when you grow up in an army town…I’ve had my far share of arguments with them about the culture within the defence forces but they all make the same argument a) there are lots of people doing bad things outside the army as well as you say and b) they themselves are not like that so don’t paint everyone with the same brush. My beliefs about the army are just anecdotal evidence but as I said I’ve known of too many who were not good. And the worst part is that even the good guys in the army would just stand back and say nothing when they say saw screwed up stuff going on. That really pisses me off. To paraphrase Edmund Burke – Evil thrives when good men do nothing. So much of breaking down the culture of rape is about guys saying to other guys ‘that’s not cool’ or ‘No it’s not funny to film her without her knowledge while you’re having sex ’.
My point is that in any organization where the overwhelming majority is male and many are young guys with often times conservative attitudes towards women, that is built on the idea of conformity, you tend to get very insensitive and sometimes downright f*#ked up views about women but you find the same thing in other institutions similar. It’s not exclusive to the army. And with statistics. I have no idea what the stats are in the army but like some many sexual crimes, the majority go unreported to police.
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This is a very misleading odd post. In fact, the word rape shouldn’t even be in it.
Isn’t it normal at that age to be figuring things out, getting them wrong sometimes and getting them right? It also sounded fairly normal that ‘he’ was ready to be at it all the time and she wasn’t. It also worked out ok because she found her voice and told him how she felt. He learned from it and so did she. This is all part of growing up, gaining self esteem and confidence. Isn’t it????? I can remember learning these lessons.
I think this is a big slap in the face of real victims of the violent crime of rape. Which is a huge difference from exploring and learning about sexuality. Shame on you.
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I did a “gender & discourse” unit at uni once and our lecturer had a real bug bear about this. She argued that the “no means no” campaign was doing both men and women a huge disservice. Men, for the reason you’ve pointed out – if they don’t get a straight-out “no” they can easily hear “yes”. And women, because in every other area of life we are allowed to say something other than “no”. If someone invites you to a party you don’t want to go to, you’re allowed to say “I’ll let you know” or “I think I have something else on.” We don’t just say “no”. So why do we expect in the bedroom for women (or men, yes I know) to be able to “just say no” when we don’t have to do that at any other time? Why do we think it’s ok for men to ignore other signs that at any other time would clearly indicate “no” (going quiet, not making eye contact, etc) and they’d get the message? That was my lecturer’s take on it and it’s what I remember the most from that course!
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Yes! Couldn’t agree more Arts Student
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Please tell me what you think about this: if this situation happens often in a relationship, do you think the relationship is ‘doomed to fail’? AND how does a 24 yr old woman go about talking to her partner of 6 years (one and off again) about it?
This article had really hit home for me and i really need some advice.
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Heya gin n tonic. I’m sorry things aren’t going too well for you. I have pretty minimal relationship expereince, so I’m not sure if I’m the right person to be replying to your post. I don’t think anyone can predict the “doomsiness” (don’t think that’s a word!!) of a relationship. But I think if you feel that you can’t communicate such crucial feelings to your partner is concerning. And needs to be discussed. If its meant to be and he truly cares about you he’ll surely be receptive and concerned more than anything else. Hope it all works out how its meant to- sending a big cold glass of sav blanc your way!!
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Maybe you don’t want to sleep with your boyfriend because you are not happy with the relationship, it seems it could be a possibility because you say on and off.
I don’t think it is necessarily healthy to not want to sleep with your parner most of the time, and this usually stems from something else underlying.
Maybe if you chat with your partner about how you feel about your relationship, the sex part might sort itself out….
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Or you might just not be all that into having sex often. I think its completely possible to be completely in love with someone and not want to have sex regularly. Just talk to him about it, I’ve found guys that care about me take the conversation well as they don’t want to do anything that isn’t making me feel good. Good luck
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I wish I had answers for you, G&T.
I had similar in an on and off 4yr relationship. It is pretty manipulative, if you think about it. I am all for the married couples having their ground rules & sex with one another when it isn’t necessarily a good time for them. However this, my experience, just felt a little different to this scenario.
I guess my message to you is if it doesn’t feel right then it probably isn’t. Someone made reference to respecting one another. For me it felt like my ex choosing to ignore my no signals was more about him being selfish and concerned with what he wanted as a priority.
It’s late & am not expressing myself particularly well. Please don’t misunderstand: my ex was an upstanding (excuse pun!) person & loving & considerate & so forth. And I am perfectly capable of saying no if need be. But there should not be one partner pushing their agenda the whole time. If our relationship had of been a more serious/permanent one then I would have made more of a point with him. Not just conversations every now & then.
Ok maybe I have advice now: it sounds like you want to continue the relationship. Think about what you want to communicate to your guy & do so clearly. On some level I am guessing he is aware. The ball is then in his court. If it doesn’t improve then you decide if it is right for you.
Hope I understood your comment & didn’t read into it too much via my own experience
(oh an for the record my libido WAY higher than his…not the issue )
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A relationship in which this happens often sounds pretty normal to me – sex therapists call it ‘desire discrepancy’. Grab a copy of Dr Rosie King’s ‘Good Loving, Great Sex’ if you want to read more or get some suggestions for how to work on this area of your relationship!
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I am someone who has been sexually assaulted (can’t call myself a victim or a survivor – I refuse to be defined by what happened to me.) This is not something that I talk about very often and many people in my life do not know about my experience (hence the anon tag.) I feel compelled to say something here because of the number comments from people saying they imagine that rape victims would find this article offensive. For my part I certainly do not.
Of course what happened was not rape and I don’t think the author is really saying that. He is talking about how he felt after discovering his girlfriend had consented when she hadn’t really wanted to. I read the article as a plea for all of us, men and women, to be honest with other. Surely that’s a good thing?
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Yes, your point is agreeing with the message that was meant to be delivered I agree. I just dissagree with the way the story was presented.
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Um, this could be the story of half the married/coupled up people every day. Its certainly not rape.How hard is it to open you’re mouth and say no? And if you don’t and you have been sleeping with the person for 2 months as the story stated then c’mon! What was the boy guys suppose to think?
Pretty ridiculous article. Far-fetched too. Sometimes I wonder if website make shit like this up to draw in people??
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And if it is so hard for you to open your mouth and say no in this situation – where you are not being forced, being blackmailed, or any other kind of unfair coercion – then you need help to get help for your problems with communication – surely the bedroom isn’t the only place you will be having a problem.
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Ok, so the headline pretty sensationalist but I think the author’s sentiments were honest, well written and valid. I think he was just really exploring what he felt. It is a topic we don’t really see out in the media or talk about.
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Its funny, my wife waits for me to initiate 90% of the time, as she tells me she loves it when I express lust for her and take the lead, as that is what masculinity is all about to her.
And that is usually the thing that gets her in the mood thereafter.
Where does that leave me? God, am I looking at 25 years to life all of a sudden?
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I think you deserve to be able to say what you need from her. Do you need her to initiate sometimes by doing certain things, to get you in the mood and to make you feel desired??
I reckon it’s pretty hard to manoeuvre around all these sexual dynamics. And also, society does dictate a lot about what it is to be a woman and the behaviour that goes with it, and what it is to be a man etc. So if you’re brought up thinking a man should act a certain way and it’s ‘unladylike’ to directly ask for sex – it can be really challenging!
Unluckily I’m still stuck in Jane Austen’s time and waiting for Mr Darcy to gently caress the lace on my bonnet. I think I’ll be waiting a while for a shag.
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I suppose the thing is that your wife has clearly expressed what she enjoys, and it’s testament to both of you and your relationship that she felt so comfortable expressing that.
Which is a bit different to the author’s story I think …
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Of course not. How ridiculous. You and your wife have obviously worked out what works for you as a couple. You like to take the lead, and she clearly has told you that she is comfortable (if not more!) with that. You have already negotiated the rules. Of couse at any point you or your wife may choose to change the rules. You then sit down and discuss it if that happens and set new boundaries.
I think the article was interesting, clearly when we’re young its the hardest time for us to negotiate such relationship intracies when we haven’t yet developed the communication skills. The lesson is that each person needs to be aware of more than simply what is said. And that’s not easy at that age, inexperience, and um… hormonal urgency!
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There’s a difference between initiation by one party that is met with an enthusiastic response, and initiation that is met by a *meh* or an “I suppose so” or an “if you really want to”.
So because you say “she loves it” I wouldn’t worry! After all, someone has to start it.
We have the same balance in our relationship. He usually initiates, I usually happily agree. No rape in sight.
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I hate this headline and I don’t understand this article. Why on earth would he think his experience had anything to do with rape, it’s just so ridiculous and I fail to see what he was thinking.
I am not one to get offended easily but I am offended on behalf of victims of rape. How horrible would it be to be a victim of the most horrific crime and then read a silly story like this.
Like some of the others have already said below, when you are in a long term relationship with jobs and kids, and you want to wait to have sex until you are both really enthusiastic about it, it may never happen. That’s life, I just assumed this happens in most relationships, it certainly happens in mine. I would be interested to see how many people out there have never had sex when they didn’t really feel like it. I can’t believe someone would make the connection between this and rape. Just goes to show you have zero understanding of what rape really is.
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Wow, I agree. This doesn’t sounds like sexual assault at all to me and trivialises rape.
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What a ridiculous notion, why even use the term rape here. Way to de-value the real issue of rape and sexual assult.
I thought women said twice as many words in a day as men on average, yet they cant make their consent clearly known when sober and with a guy they are in a relationship with – so therefore the bloke is to blame, as usual?
I say (unless there are mental health or substance issues at play) the blame rests solely with the party that could not communicate their consent or otherwise. What a joke this post is.
Can I also cry rape for all the times my wife ‘rang the bell’ when ovulating and we were trying to concieve, and I really was not in the mood. What about me called her a thief for all the times she went shopping and I thought we should be saving. This is noddy land stuff guys, and makes light of the very serious issue of sexual assult. Pick up your game MM.
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AGREE!! and im a female. This article is ridiculous. I think this article portrays women as weak which is just not the case. And yes are men suppose to read our minds?
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Well… I wouldn’t go as far as to call it rape, but I’ve definitely pressured my boyfriend into having sex with me more than once when he wasn’t in the mood. I mean when we talk about it he always insists that I’m not forcing him to do anything he doesn’t want to. In fact he even said he sees it as his ‘duty’ to make me happy.
In our relationship, he’s the one that would prefer to just lay around and cuddle most of the time while I’m always eager to rush straight to the sex. I think if our roles were reversed I’d be one happy chicken because to me, him wanting to have sex with me shows me how into me he is and how much he wants me.
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Funny, I bet if I used that same first sentence as you just did in here as a man, ie,
‘I’ve definitely pressured my wife into having sex with me more than once when she wasn’t in the mood’,
I would be called all manner of things in here.
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That’s EXACTLY what I was thinking, which is why I wanted to share
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‘Accidental rape’? Easy with the sensationalist headlines MM Team
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Outside of sex, I’m pretty sure we’ve all said ‘yes’ to doing something when we’ve preferred to say ‘no’. I’m not always enthusiastic about volunteering at my child’s school canteen but if asked, and I absolutely don’t not want to, I will. The benefits are sufficient for me to say ‘yes’ even though I might be able to think of a dozen other things I would prefer to do at the time.
This matter is just horribly complicated and controversial when sex and consent enter the equation.
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This is so very sad.
Thank you for taking responsibility for your part and for helping other men to understand. I teach my sons about listening and ensuring they have consent.
What I take from this though, is a determination that my daughter will always feel able to say ‘no’ when she means ‘no’ and ‘yes’ when she means ‘yes’. We need to empower our daughters to do that and not to be so passive / compliant that they give mixed messages.
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So now, as well as not being able to believe women who say they were raped, we can’t believe women who say they weren’t?
I’m glad that you care so much about whether or not your partner wanted or enjoyed sex. But Katie said you didn’t rape her. You both agreed it was a communication issue. Can you please just take her word for it and stop beating yourself up over the kind of completely normal incident which occurs in some form in the majority of healthy sexual relationships?
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I read this piece a few weeks ago and I was really impressed by it. Now that I’ve had some time to think and have re-read it I really don’t think this is accidental “rape” at all. I think it is offensive to those who have experienced first-hand the violence of sexual assault or rape.
What Hugh is describing is an awakening in his sexuality, let’s remember he was quite young when this incident occurred with Katie. I can definitely say that the sex I engage in (or lack thereof) these days in my late 20s is different to the sex I had in my teens or early 20s. I’m more aware of boundaries and listening to my partner and vice versa.
Thinking about all this now I believe I was more assertive when I was younger. I was determined I was not going to lose my virginity to just some guy. But since then I’ve found it hard sometimes to communicate a firm “no” not so much in a relationship but during casual sex. I had a terrible experience earlier this year that left me crying after he left my apartment. Given that I had just come out of a loving 6 year relationship this was a rude shock for me.
Now that I’ve had time and have put space between myself and what happened I can see it wasn’t accidental rape or regrettable sex – it was sexual assault. Which is why I find it a bit insulting to call what happened between Hugh and Katie “rape”. As the writer mentioned you can’t be expected to be a mindreader.
The fact is when you communicate a clear and resounding “NO” and the person continues anyway, that is rape. I feel that belittling it further silences the women (and men) who stay quiet on the issue.
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I agree. A good point, well made.
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I can understand this completely. When your young and don’t have a lot of relationship experience it can be hard to talk about things like this.
When I was in my late teens all my female friends seemed to love sex, couldn’t get enough of it. Me on the other hand would have been happy with a once a fortnight romp. However, because this I thought there was something wrong with me so I regularly had sex with my long term bf when I didn’t want to. Not because he pushed me too, but because I pushed me too.
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I think the ‘accidental rape’ title has more to do with how Hugo felt, not a legal definition of rape. The way I read it, he felt that he had violated the trust & body of someone he cared about & wished he could have been more receptive to her.
I agree that he was not at fault, but I don’t think Katie was either. I have many times been in a position of having sex because of not wanting to disappoint my husband (who I love & desire very much), especially as with a very young son opportunities to have sex are currently few. Even before having a baby, I often had sex not because I wanted to but because he did. Ive tried to explain to him that sometimes I want physical intimacy that isn’t sex but I find it hard to explain. That’s me having the hard time finding the words, not him misunderstanding but it doesn’t make me feel better about it.
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Such a well written article. I can definitely relate to the idea that women are brought up to be pleasing, attractive, acquiescent and all that.
I am an independent person, I have no problems saying what i think 98% of the time – but put me in a situation with a partner i care about, not wanting to go there, and I just can’t find the words to say so. Of course that’s largely my fault, but I couldn’t agree more about the ‘slow down’ or ‘not now’ lights analogy. It’s so dissatisfying to be rushed through foreplay and then you feel used by the end because so little consideration for what you wanted was shown.
Can we have more writing by Hugo please?
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This is a very honest piece. I’ll admit there have been times I have said yes despite not being exactly keen for it. But in every case I feel I have no one to blame but myself for not bring more honest. We cannot expect our partners, male or female, to interpret our own cryptic messages. Seriously! I can speak (what I believe to be) plain English to my partner and I wonder if it gets through (non sex-related). He would never push me to have sex if I didn’t want to and if I verbally agree I cannot expect him to have to think about what’s actually going through my mind. I think the message here is be more honest and say what you mean, don’t beat around the bush. That would actually solve a lot of relationship issues, not just in the bedroom!
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Does that mean if I am working in a job that I don’t really enjoy it is accidental slavery?? Come on, if we were only to engage in sex when both parties had “mutual enthusiasm” and then monitoring, through mind reading, whilst trying to remember if foreplay was to begin clockwise or anti-clockwise and last for 3 minutes or 6 minutes……. Really??
It’s bit much calling this accidental rape, but then regrettable sex as a title wouldn’t be so controversial because it puts the responsibility on the individual.
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This is possibly the most valuable piece that has ever been published on Mamma Mia. Well done on an excellent piece, and kudos to Hugo for his honesty.
You’ll get plenty of people who decry that what occured is not rape, because we live in a rape apologist culture. You’ll also get “But men get raped too!” and “But women lie about rape!” and all kinds of other statements that derail the point of this article. Again, this is because we live in a culture that excuses rape, or places the blame on the victim, not the perpetrator.
Women are taught to be polite, to be pleasing, to make other people happy, to not make a fuss. So instead of feeling comfortable in saying “No thank you.” or “I’d rather not.”, they are shamed into guilt for not being pleasing or for making a fuss. Then they feel dirty and violated afterwards for doing something they did not want to do.
It’s very simple. The most important things, when it comes to sexual relationships of any kind, with any other person, are communication and enthusiastic consent.
Contrary to popular belief, obtaining enthusiastic consent by using good communication does not kill the mood. In fact, there is nothing sexier than someone giving a resounding “YES!!” when asked clearly if they wish to continue with a sexual act. There is nothing sexier than being asked “Do you like this? Does this feel good? Do you want me to do it again?” while you are getting your freak on with your partner. Nor is there anything sexier than being looked in the eye and asked “Do you want to f***, honey/sexy/etc?”
Besides, most people are much more enthusiastic about getting funky with someone when they are included in the act, not expected to just lie there and let it be “done” to them. A man who is good in bed is always going to want his partner enthusiastically joining in, not laying back and wishing it was over and done with.
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Completely off topic… but I’m curious about your screen name “fat heffalump” it made me a bit sad that someone would use such a derogatory name for themselves…. : (
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One could argue that ‘fat heffalump’ is not necessarily a derogatory term; it is only this way if you see being fat as a bad thing (which not everyone does). Not a criticism, just an interesting observation.
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roserusso – fat is only a derogatory word when we make it so. I suggest you Google “fat activism” or “health at every size” and learn the alternative paradigm that steps out of the cultural thought that fat is bad.
Or Google my username and you’ll find my blog.
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There is a world of difference between fat activism & HAES…
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Since when do we live in a rape apologist culture? Bit of a stretch there.
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Since the dawn of time – which is when women were first valued as less than men. Read the horrible comments in this thread and see how many excuses are made for rape. Think about how often you hear people say “Well she shouldn’t dress like that/get drunk/go out after dark/drive her car without locking it/etc etc etc.”
There is no stretch at all – in fact by saying so, you are engaging in rape apologism yourself.
Perhaps a little Googling of “rape culture” will do you good.
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lol, your reply is a great window to where you are coming from, so thanks. I know not to discuss further with you. You read into things what you want obviously.
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I just don’t understand the things you say Fat Heffalump, not just now but other comments I read from you as well. It just doesn’t make any sense to my mind.
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You dont understand because you have probably been brainwashed by our rape culture. She makes perfect sense.
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I agree anon, it doesn’t make any sense and neither do you Olivia. What brainwashing and what rape culture? Where do you come up with this or do you just pull something out of thin air to support your argument? Where I grew up and where I live now, rape is considered one of the most horrific crimes that can happen to anyone so I really don’t understand what you are talking about.
I’ve always found it so frustrating trying to have a discussion with stubborn people who can’t be reasoned with and who just keep repeating the same argument over and over without taking on board what anyone else is saying.
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Well said.
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Fat Heffalump.
You are extreme and intolerant. There is no rape culture, it is a theory for extreme feminism, not the mainstream. If there was a rape culture, we would all accept rape and not have the utter disdain that the overwhelming majority of society does.
Rape is abhorred and rapists are decried as the scum of the earth. Rape is viewed as second only to death as a horrific crime and there are millions of dollars poured into victim support annually.
To argue that rape is in some way cultural is not just nonsensical, it’s also insulting to 99% of the population.
Go and find reality and make the world a better place, rather than labeling everyone who doesn’t agree with your wisdom as women haters,
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Fantastic response Joanna, I agree with every word and would give you the thumbs up a hundred times if I could. Where do these people come up with some of this crap? It’s a complete mystery to me.
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