UPDATE: US President Barack Obama has, for the first time, come out in support of same sex marriage. He said the First Lady ‘feels the way I do’.
“Over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbours, when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships – same-sex relationships – who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married.”
Now that he’s on side, here are some common arguments you can use to answer back at same sex marriage critics:
There has been a lot of talk about this gay marriage business bringing about the end of the world. Something about The Gays unhinging their collective maws and swallowing villages whole. It’s a compelling argument if you’ve ever been to Mardi Gras and mistaken it for the world’s most fabulous army invading the streets. We’re here, we’re queer and we’re annexing your collection of interior design manuals. However, contrary to popular belief, The Gays aren’t trying to take over the streets. Urban gentrification is about as militant as we get, believe me.
So to help those who feel like they need to keep peddling the marriage-go-round of mistruths, I have compiled this Stupendous Compendium of Anti Gay Marriage Arguments (and why they’re wrong).
You’re welcome.
It’s about religion.
No, it isn’t. Going to church is about religion. Loving thy neighbour is about religion. Marriage is a secular contract presided over by Government. Like taxes. Atheists get married. Religious people get married. Some churches won’t marry inter-racial couples, or previously divorced couples. They’re welcome to. That’s their right. But that doesn’t preclude these people from marriage altogether. Because it’s secular.
Legalising gay marriage only affects a small number of people, why bother?
There are two flaws with this. If we’d followed this logic then we would have had no black civil rights movement. And asking ‘why bother’ about a human rights imbalance is a little like ignoring the service station when your car is on fire and your face is melting. Tis merely a flesh wound, come back and I’ll bite your knee caps off! The ‘only them’ argument has consistently been shown, throughout history, to be reprehensible. We cannot afford to stand by while ‘only them’ becomes a chorus of our own inability to act. One day, and this is the lesson we still haven’t learned, ‘only them’ could become ‘only you’. It’s a lonely outpost. Would they care to make the same argument about disability funding?
It’s about procreation.
Then you might also want to ban marriages that take place later in life, beyond a couple’s child bearing years. Or you might consider banning marriage for heterosexual couples who don’t want children. Families are about procreation or adoption or surrogacy. Marriage is about love between two individuals. The idea that we must procreate to protect the human race was spawned, forgive the pun, during a time when sabre toothed tigers were an actual health threat and actual health care consisted of medicinal screaming. So yes, prolific bonking used to be a shared duty. The times have changed, somewhat.
We have more important problems to deal with!
This is disingenuous. Yes, I will help you with your civil rights movement but really, this trash isn’t going to take itself out. This is a familiar refrain. We have to fix health care! We have to fix the welfare system! And we do, we do. But if Government’s cannot multi-task, especially to instate a basic right of equality, then we are all in a little bit of trouble. And if you forever want to put gay marriage on the backburner, because the country has had a sudden need to legislate invisible cigarette packages, then we’ve successfully woven a beautiful too-hard-basket that would look simply delightful as the centrepiece on a hardwood table, fit for a gay.
Homosexuality is against the natural order!
And so are those farm animal ornaments with slinkies for legs. But they’re still in our homes. Truth be known – and science can be a wonderful master – homosexuality occurs quite often in nature. If you’ve never seen a pair of male dolphins doing miraculous things with their blowholes, you haven’t been watching enough SBS. Christian and philosopher Thomas Aquinas was a bit of a fan of looking to nature for validation of humanity’s own habits, which might explain the brief fad in the early days of raising our young in a burrow. There are actually some animals that spontaneously change sex from male to female and vice versa, so relying on the ‘natural order’ of things is rather a bit misleading.
Homosexuality is a choice. They made their gay bed, let them lie in it.
There is only one group of people capable of answering the question of choice and homosexuals. They are The Gays. I happen to be one of these. I was born this way. I like men the same way you know you like the opposite sex. Nobody taught you to. You just do. You’re hardwired and so am I. The implication that gay kids, a larger proportion of whom commit suicide because of horrendous bullying and identity issues, would choose to endure the torture of their childhoods is insulting. It’s insulting and you have no authority to tell us you know better. Because unless you’re gay, you don’t.
It’s a slippery slope. Just wait until The Gays can marry their brothers. Who are also animals.
Consent. Repeat after me. Animals cannot provide consent and beastiality is an avenue where consent cannot be provided in a ‘loving’ relationship. Unless you’re donkey has a Speak ‘n’ Say, there is no consent. And there are medical reasons why incest is frowned upon. But there is no decent, scientific, medical or moral reason why two loving, consenting, non-related adults should not be afforded the same rights as the majority.
It’s about morality, man. Think of morality, won’t you?
Two words. Las Vegas. Shotgun weddings that last 43 minutes aren’t really the pinnacle of morality. Nor are they sacred, for that matter. It’s only a slight affront that a heterosexual couple jacked up on cocaine and the better part of an entire bar can slur ‘I do’ with the full support of the law. That The Gays are forced to settle for ‘I Would’, even while measured against this same impressive yardstick, is simply unintelligible. Nothing is more moral, one would have thought, than a couple willing to devote themselves to each other for the rest of their lives. And this is true in the eyes of the law if you have both a penis and a vagina. You must have one of each between you lest you be cursed forever more to de facto relationships and cloudy legal rights in your old age. Morality indeed.
I totally agree, but let’s not call it marriage. Let them have civil unions!
Ahem. Let them eat cake? Those who adopt this argument can be the most frustrating as this is the one that glosses over the exact issue at stake here. This isn’t about every gay wanting to marry. This isn’t about the words themselves. It’s about what the options are and who has access to them. Apartheid South Africa had a water fountain for blacks and water fountains for whites. Essentially, nobody is missing out except that they’re both lapping at an entrenched division made possible by discrimination. Call it whatever you want. Call it Skiddlepop, if you must, but give it to everybody. If one doesn’t, then discrimination continues. Refusing to amend the marriage act is tantamount to saying The Gays are not worthy of the institution. And blacks aren’t worthy of the same drinking fountains, nor women the vote. Oh, history, it’s like an embarrassing echo.
I like gay people, but I don’t think they should be allowed to marry.
Let me guess, you also have lots of gay friends? And I have a hat made from kitten whiskers. You might like them – everyone has that token gay guy who hogs the karaoke machine at company functions and they’re a right hoot, I’m sure – but you don’t respect them. And respect is really what we’re after here.
But the Marriage Act clearly says it is between a Man and Woman!
Stop shouting. Yes, it does. Unfortunately that Act wasn’t amended by scholars in the 4th Century. It was amended by John Howard. In 2004. It was a deliberate move to exclude and it didn’t take long to execute. Amending the Act would be simple and absolutely no impediment to the debate whatsoever.
Well, here’s my analogy about a soccer player joining an AFL Game and wanting the rules changed Except the soccer player did choose to be a soccer player. And AFL isn’t the only game in town. And then all the men shower together at the end anyway. Hang on.
But, why should The Gays get special treatment?
If by special, you mean unequal. The Gays don’t want more than what the straights have. We want the same. Which is ironic, because that’s what homo means.
But if we let The Gays marry, I might turn gay.
No, you won’t. Honest. We’ll even promise to stop casting spells on your testosterone or oestrogen. Promise. It’s actually scientifically proven that touching a gay, or hearing about a gay wedding will have absolutely no bearing on your life whatsoever. Some very brave scientists risked homosexuality to empirically test this hypothesis, so best you show them some respect.
But a gay wedding would ruin my heterosexual marriage!
False. Unless a gay couple in the middle of their nuptials literally fell on top of your wedding ceremony, this is not going to happen. And I think you’ll agree that is a very unlikely course of events. Unless we all of a sudden legalise gay air weddings, which is just plain dangerous.
But if we let them marry, then they’ll have kids and we’ll end up with a gay society.
This one is simple. I am gay. My parents are not. Work it out.
*It’s about tradition
I didn’t think to include this one when I first wrote this post almost a year ago, because it was so patently absurd. But it seems to be the Prime Minister’s favourite excuse. It’s a silly one. Here are some other traditional things: slavery, women not being allowed to vote (yes, that’s right Ms Gillard), legwarmers, witch hunts, lynchings, stonings, horses as a principal means of transport, sacrifices of disabled children to the Gods, living in caves.
Yeah, an argument of ‘tradition’ is an argument against meaningful progress. Good luck with that one and all.
Just because.
Sigh.
You really can’t argue against that. Can you?








Comments
785 Comments so far
Governments definitely exist. It is they who shape the laws for all, and decide whose marriage is *legal* today, and whose isn’t. Thanks to our say in it all, government eventually bows to societal pressure, however late.
Religion and the big ‘G’ however, are personal things, and the guidelines there don’t tend to shift much over millennia, despite massive change in society’s ideology.
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great article. fantastic!
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I agree, love is love. Gay is gay. It’s just how some people are made. Why is it such a big freakin deal what sex couples are???
Religion is a choice, a system of belief. People aren’t born religious, they are taught it. Religion should have NO place in deciding the rights of any person. NONE AT ALL. Using religion to decide what is best for someone else is ridiculously unjust.
Children don’t NEED a mother and a father, they just need love. I have seen SO MANY straight couples abuse/neglect their kids, but I guess they’re still better parents because they have opposing genitals??
I cannot think of one logical reason to prevent gay people from getting married. I don’t understand how people can be so opposed to it, yet not have the same strong feelings about horrific things like people dying in third world countries.
The world is crazy. Let’s let a little bit more love in the world I say.
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I think homosexual people should be given marriage rights. I dont presume to have the right to even have an opinion against gay marriage…since I am not gay. I cant imagine how demoralising it must feel to be told that your relationship is not legally valid/important/worthy of recognition in a legal and governmental sense. Gee, I really took my right to be married for granted! How lucky am I that my marriage and wedding were not blocked in any way. I wanted to get married, I did, and here I am. End of story. No fights for rights anywhere along the way.
I can see Rick writes from a place of deep frustration which is probably the reason for his farcical writing style. As a heterosexual, I dont want him, or any other homosexual person thinking that *I* think any of the things he mentioned above.
I also am friends with a beautiful lesbian couple, who have been together for years and years. They are tender, respectful of each other and truly committed. They have never mentioned marriage. Then, I know other people, a few women from school, who have 5 kids to 4 different men, and the man of the moment is usually being yelled at in the car park and called all sorts of names. My point is, that whether a union is between a gay couple or a straight couple is irrelevant. It is all in the nature of the people involved in the rleationship. I would assume (I know, I know) that my lesbian friends value their relationship and the concept of commitment more than the woman in the carpark, in her so called “moral, heterosexual union.”
Ah, I dont know. Just let them marry!
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Grrr this subject frustrates me so much! I just cannot understand why people have such a problem with gay marriage! Are people so insecure in their own relationships that they think that gays marrying will screw up their own marriage?
As for the arguments re religion – marriage pre-dates religion. It started off as a contract to keep property in the family. This is why you still need to get your marriage sanctified by the courts irregardless of whether you took your vows in that cute little church down the road!
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I was raised collectively by my gay dad and his partner, and my mum and her (male) partner. I have three dads, and would not swap my crazy situation for anything.
I have two lovely children who are completely okay with having three grandpas, have a loving husband and was walked down the aisle by my three dads: three of the strongest, well-adjusted, manly men I know.
My dad and his partner have been together for 27 years. My dad is the president of the local Lions Club and is an absolute stalwart of the community. He has been spat on and had ‘die fag*ots’ scratched into his car.
And yet, he is somehow any less of a human being in the eyes of John Howard and the Christian fundamentalists. Sickening, and very saddening for me and my hodge-podge, brilliant, loving family.
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Agree. I have two mums. I don’t feel that this has disadvantaged me in any way. There was always a lot of love in my household.
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You know what I hate about the “oh won’t someone PLEASE think of the children” arguement (goes something like…”I don’t care what those people do behind closed doors. I’m just concerned about the children. The children! They’ll be teased and ostracised at school! It’s the children I care about”).
Firstly, children are innocent and open minded. The only way they know that something is bad or unnatural is if adults tell them. Don’t tell your children two dads or two mums is bad and they won’t think that. And then the kids won’t get teased. Simple. If society as a whole accepts gay parents, children will too.
Secondly. Take responsibility for raising your own compassionate tolerant children. If everyone did this, there would be no bullying over this issue. Saying “oh well, bullying is going to happen so instead of stopping the bullying, we’ll stop gay parents” is frankly bull shit and such a cop out.
Anyway. That is another issue.
Fully support gay marriage. Obviously. This article is awesome, funny and true.
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I love the way you walked down the aisle! What a great moment for all three of your dads =)
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Thanks, it was pretty special. All four of us were bawling!
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I just do not understand why anyone would have something against a loving couple wanting to legalise their union. if anything we should be encouraging people to get married and stay married. i don’t care about whether you are homosexual or heterosexual.
i am yet to see a valid argument as to why anyone would not see this as a basic human right.
i have high hopes that with the work of the greens we might see this happening…
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Let us march, petition, scream, shout and stomp our feet until this archaic stance is overturned.
Visit http://www.whycantigetmarried.com, a website created by a close friend, and share your thoughts on why gay marriage should be legalised. Make your opinion heard, make it count and we can make it happen.
xx
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I think the state should abolish the marriage act and everyone should be able to get civil unions. The term marriage can then be used by anyone who wants, for religious or cultural purposes and it won’t be the state’s business how anyone defines marriage.
Does anyone know what the current rules are regarding gay adoption, IVF etc? I have more concerns about gay adoption simply because I believe the starting point for our society should be that every child is entitled to a mother and a father. I realise that this is not the reality for many children and I certainly don’t think gay couples are any less capable of loving a child than a hetrosexual couple but I think the child’s right to be raised by a mother and father supersedes any rights adults may have or want.
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what about all the single mums out there…would you exclude them from adoption and IVF as there is no “father”. A father is just a name until a person gives it meaning…this person can be a grandpa, uncle, friend, etc. My partner has a “father” but he left when he was 2…This man was not a father!! He was someone who had a child who he abandoned.
I think your statement are a slap in the face for single mums/dads that do their best for the child/ren they love, wether or not there is a father or mother in the picture.
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Totally agree with you – I am a single mum and my son sees my father as a father figure in his life. They have a wonderful relationship.
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I totally agree with this, my daughter doesn’t have a father either, just a guy who bailed out on us when I found out I was pregnant.
She still has a fabulous collection of father figures in her life thanks to family, and friends who really are the truest friends, and so have become family as well.
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Scientific research which includes validated studies published in respected peer reviewed journals confirms that a mother and father are not necessary. What is necessary is a loving parent or parents regardless of gender.
Most not-for-profit foster agencies also have no problem placing children with gay couples.
Whether you approve or not children are growing up happy and well adjusted in same-sex households but they are being disadvantaged by straight people like you and politicians and the church. They are disadvantaged by being denied a legal relationship with both parents. Thats the true issue of child-abuse in same-sex relationships….abuse perpetrated by the government and others aimed at denying children the rights and protections offered to children in straight relationships.
The other thing that annoys me about people like you and your ill-informed comments is that many, if not the majority of same-sex families have involved mothers AND fathers. The majority of kids in lesbian led families were concieved in previous straight relationships or using KNOWN male donors. Many gay fathers strive to maintain links between their children and their birth mothers. Other gay families choose not to involve the opposite sex birth parent but instead provide opportunities for opposite sex interaction with uncles, aunties and grandparents.
In my own case my partner and I chose a known donor because we happened to believe it was important for our daughter to know and have a relationship with her biological father. He is not a parent though.
The gay world is not black and white.
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I find it the height of hypocrisy that gay people can foster but not adopt. Infuriating. You’re good enough to care for some of the most vulnerable and troubled, challenging children around but not good enough to adopt your own. I can’t believe the government gets away with using gay people to help bear the load in the under resourced foster system and then turns around and denies parental rights. It’s a disgrace this doesn’t get more attention it’s a glaring contradiction – or worse implies that foster kids are deserving of what the government can only be implying are second rate or last resort parents.
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Actually there have been plenty of scientific studies that show that children raised by single parents have significantly worse life outcomes than children in general (controlling for income, education etc.) So, no, I don’t support ivf or adoption for single parents because it is not in the best interests of children.
I am not saying that there aren’t great single parents and that single or gay parents are less capable of loving children than a stable hetrosexual couple. I am not saying that there aren’t happy stableloving families with gay parents.
What I am saying is that where the state has legitimate role in legislating or governing the rules around adoption and IVF, it should always have the child’s rights and best interests paramount, and that, to me, means that children are entitled to both a mother and a father.
It is a question of values and ethics, and I am not a bigot for placing the interests of a child above the wants of adults. I daresay the majority of Australians (though probably not on this blog) would agree with me.
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I’m straight and have zero gay friends. I know maybe 3 or 4 gay people that I would class as acquaintances. I believe marriage is important (and am happily married). I had a catholic upbringing and whilst I don’t go to mass anymore but my faith/cultural stance is fairly in line with what it ever was. I have spent very little time considering whether gay people should be allowed to marry or not. If someone asked my opinion it would be “yeah why not, who gives a shit”. Who the hell are these straight people who are so freakin worried about gay marriage??? What on earth has it got to do with them? How is 2 people declaring their commitment to each other (and being allowed to recognise this in law) going to do ANYONE any harm?
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I feel the same way. Im not gay, and i have no problem with homosexuality. Its something I dont understand as im not gay (ill never know how it feels to be excluded or told im socially wrong), so who am I to judge or say what they can or cant do.
i feel as long as you are a decent person and follow the law, then you should have the same rights as everyone else. If you are a killer then you deserve nothing. Society should pay more attention to taking rights away from the scum that dont deserve to have rights. Or to change laws that prevent abuse, poverty, etc….you know, the important things in life that affect EVERYONE no matter their race, age, sex, etc.
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Love is love regardless of age, race and sex.
Love speaks many languages and touches everyone.
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Haa he even look like a chic
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My main issue is that alot of people dont realise that God invented marriage and he invented it to be between a man and a woman. This is not something man made.
God does not support Gay marriage. Now as the inventor of marriage doesn’t that trump all the arguments?
I believe as people like you and I, homosexuals should be treated as equals but to be married? I just don’t think we should change something as humans that God meant for Man and Woman.
This is my opinion please do not yell at me for having an opposing one to the majority.
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I don’t understand why religion is brought into this.
You can’t prove God exists, therefore you can’t prove that God doesn’t support Gay marriage, therefore your arguement is void.
Please give me a reason why gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed, that you are able to prove.
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By the way I respect your opinion Meg, I just don’t understand how religion can be used against gay marriage when alot of people don’t even have a religion.
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How did God invent Marriage?
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God didn’t invent marriage the church did as a way of controlling women and making sure money and titles remained with certain families and in control by men.
Honestly you religeous people are funny the way you cherry pick your way through the bible to support your churches current biases and discriminations.
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Why do I get the impression that if Jesus (who purportedly loved everyone and judged no one) were to show up today a lot of his followers would run him out of town?
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Carolyn, where on earth would you have got that impression from? That is such rubbish statement to make.
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Carolyn Jesus loved everyone but he certainly made judgements about peoples behaviour as being right or wrong. There are numerous passages in the New Testament where he made judgements about peoples behaviour, e.g. driving the money lenders out of the temple,
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Not that there is anything wrong with that
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I agree with Carolyn. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that story you’re referring to about all the rich people who were smugly putting some money intot he church coffers, and this little empoverished old lady came, all the rich guys laughed at her, and she put one coin in; and Jesus was like, ‘She’s awesome because she has given all she has.’
But, you know, in more refined, Biblical language than that. Point is, I always liked that story. It’s hardly a judgement on Jesus’ side.
And here I am discussing the moral position of a guy I don’t even believe in. Anyway.
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“God’s” word was actually “heard” and written down by a bunch of men quite a few years ago. Funnily enough we aren’t able to check the authenticity of their sources. Shame.
Oh and “God” also said that you aren’t allowed to eat lobster. Enjoyed any shellfish lately?
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Let alone wear that poly blend t shirt.
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Wearing a wedding ring Meg? Or any jewellery?
Timothy 2:9 “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments.”
Plenty of stuff is banned in the bible: divorce, touching pigs, mixing fabrics & shell fish (as above) let alone those complicated rules about when women are allowed out of the house depending on their menstrual cycle.
The point is. Society, people, morality evolves. The bible doesn’t.
To answer the comment that is bound to follow this. Yes, most of those examples are from the old testament- which is not strictly considered christian law.
If you agree that those examples of the old testament are outdated, humanity has evolved past them. Then how can you possibly maintain one part of the old testament as irrefutable law: Leviticus 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination”
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Does that mean it’s ok to have gay sex standing up? I only make light of these things because they don’t deserve serious debate!
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You believe that God invented marriage. I don’t.
In a secular, multi-faith, no faith, whatever-you-want-to-believe-or-not-believe-let’s-just-live-in-peace society, there is no place for one religion to dictate the laws and cultural practices of the rest.
I would never advocate for all churches to have to be forced by Governments to perform homosexual marriages, but a lot of people choose to get married in a ceremony which has no reference to God, Buddha, Allah or any other religious figure. Why can’t homosexual people be allowed access to these?
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If God invented marriage, how is it that my husband and I don’t believe in God and yet somehow am still married? We had a wedding, signed a certificate, and now we’re married. God wasn’t mentioned in my ceremony or on that certificate. Lucky for me, I fell in love with a man.
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I disagree Meg, I think God, if you’re Christian, as I am, invented the sacrament of marriage – which is different to what Rick is talking about; ‘Marriage is a secular contract presided over by Government’. Unlike the sacrament of marriage, which is a contract, if you will, between the couple and God. Not everyone, whether homosexual or not, may have the wish or the right to this sacrament (i.e. divorcees, non-christians).
The secular marriage contract, as I understands it, formalises the relationship between two not blood related people, giving them rights and responsibilities to each other, making them ‘kin’ in the eyes of the law.
Most importantly, I think marriage is about two people making a public commitment to each other and having the community aknowledge that commitment and relationship.
Denying a legal marriage to homosexuals, to me, says that the government doesn’t think their commitment to each other and their relationship is as valid as a heterosexual relationship. Only the two people in the relationship can decide how valid and committed it is, not a government.
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How can you know what God did and didn’t invent marriage for?
I think what people forget is that the bible is all contextual.
If you want to take everything in the bible literally then your own life is probably filled with sin, according to what is written.
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I too am a christian and believe that the Bible is the Word of God. YES my life is filled with sin, hence i need Jesus because it is only through him that i can be forgiven. Being a chrisitan isn’t about being sinless/perfect I’m as sinful as anyone but thank God i have also been freed of the penalty of sin and have nothing to fear.
I am against gay marriage i believe God created marriage for man and woman. I also acknowledge that there are many people for whom marriage has nothing to do with God but that is not argument for me to say go ahead.
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But why do you believe it is ok for all the straight non-believers who are obviously not adhereing to your beliefs about marriage to have the right to marry but not same-sex couples?
When was the last time you were pinging opinion boards decrying the rights of straight non-believers to participate in marriage?
Hypocrasy is the only word that fits you and your ilk.
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I guess what i was trying to say when i wrote ‘that is not an argument for me’ was that just because those people are doing what for me isn’t ideal or right does not make it right for homosexuals to marry. That’s like saying just because ur friend is allowed to jump off a cliff you should do it too.
In answer i don’t think it’s ok but i can’t change it. At this stage i still have the opportunity to share my beliefs and change (keep the same)the outcomes regarding homosexual marriage.
I’m really sorry you think i’m a hypocrite. As i tried to express above just because i am a christian does not mean i live a perfect life, even though God demands it, but fortunately if u ask for it despite our imperfections we are fogiven
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You can be as imperfect as the rest of us, it would just be nice for a bit of self-reflection and acceptance of the hypocrasy of your arguments.
As I have said in other posts on this site (and many others) it is the cherry picking of select pieces in the bible and other religious texts that really gets up my nose. It doesn’t just apply to the christians either as there are plenty of the muslim faith that use selective bits of the Koran.
You want marriage to be between a man and a woman because your particular church/congregation tells you that. So fine apply that rule to people of YOUR church not to the wider community who should not have to be governed by your beliefs.
We are supposed to be living in a secular society that is not governed by any one religion. I don’t tell you what you can and can’t do within the confines of your church so don’t presume to tell me what I can and can’t do in the wider community that exists outside your front door.
And for the record I count myself as a believer, I am not anti-christianity/religion….I am anti-discrimination.
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Sorry it has take me awhile to respond Two Mummies…
I do not believe i cherry pick pieces of the Bible. Essentially the Old Testament lays down the law which due to our sinful nature we can not keep hence we deserve punishment. Fortunately as recorded in the New Testament Christ was born our saviour to deliver us – He fulfilled the cermonial laws of the Old Testament but we still strive to follow other lessons from the Old Testament for example the Old Testament out of love for others. I believe all of the Bible has relevnce to our daily lives, in light of the messages of the New Testament.
As said before I believe marriage was created by God. It is written in both the Old and New testament that it is between man and woman. Our government/wider community is guided by christian principles hence we have the current law. As individuals we can;t tell each other what to do but laws are created to protect us and out community. I do presume that we should both live our lives according to our countries laws.
in response to your last point (at the risk of starting a completely different topic of discussion)may I ask what you are a believer of?
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I think I lost about 12 IQ points reading Meg’s comment. There aren’t words…
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I won’t yell at you Meg. I will just say that if the only book you’ve ever read is the bible, then that would explain your obvious limitations in brain function.
Has anyone asked God if he changed his mind about gay marriage since the bible was written? Maybe he has been looking down on us from heaven and seeing that gay people aren’t so bad and that maybe they are good enough to grant the right to marry to. Now he just has to communicate that to Julia Gillard so she can do his bidding. Oops, she doesn’t believe in God. How will this work then? I know he works in mysterious ways, I think he will figure it out very soon. I have faith. Praise the lord!
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Actually God has nothing to say about gay marriage. The bible forbids men from having sexual relations with other men, but has nothing to say about marriage.
Meg clearly believes that homosexuality itself is wrong, but for the rest of us here in 2010 the debate is not about the ‘morality’ or lack thereof involved in homosexual sex, but rather whether the right to marry should be extended to those homosexual couples who wish to do so.
Like my mums. Who have been together and in love for twenty years and might, after all that time, now want to declare their love and commitment in a (non-religious) ceremony in front of their friends and family.
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Your God invented marriage. Some people do not have a god, so why should your god’s rules apply to those with no god or a different god. Many gay people have a god, and any person with a god, that god loves them, and that person feels god’s love. It is interesting that a god will always hold the same prejudices as the person who believes in it.
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Hang on a second. I believe in God. How come people are so passionatley for Gay marriage and tell me that if I am against it that my reasons are “bollocks” but if I ever told someone that their reasons for not believing in God were bollocks I’d get smashed over the head- therefore I have the decency to respect their beliefs and I refrain from doing so.
If “religious people” cannot socially shove their opinions down peoples throats, why are gay activates allowed to?
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It’s about human and civil rights. Surely even religious people believe in that.
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Because whether they believe in God doesn’t affect whether you can believe or not. But whether you believe in gay marriage does affect whether they can marry or not.
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Well, as an atheist who is getting married next year, with both a gay mother and uncle in long term relationships, I have to say your comments offended me.
Gay marriage should be allowed and legal as it does not hurt anybody else when someone gets married. It is not threatening, nor is it “bollocks”- it is simply about two people who love each other wanting to announce that with those close to them and there may be other reasons attached (economic reasons, family etc etc). Much the same reasons I am getting married next year. My point here, is that gay and lesbian people have not “chosen” their sexual orientation, which is what your post implies. There is no choice. Those of us in society who are heterosexual are not seen as making a “choice” regarding our sexual orientation, so i don’t see how it is different for gay people.
This leads to my last point, about how people call your reasons for being against gay marriage “bollocks”. Well, frankly they are, but the bottom line is, the majority of people, particularly in developed countries, choose if they want to believe in a religion. Yes, there is of course influence and socialisation from when a person is younger and may be taken to church etc, but eventually, we all develop the capacity to think critically and make a choice about religion.
The reason religious people can’t shove their beliefs down peoples throats in this situation is because marriage is not based on religion, but is bestowed by the state. If marriage was all about religion, much fewer people would be able to get married.
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I just wrote an ethics essay for my HSC exam with most of the same points! Damn, wish I had read this earlier though to squeeze in some more paragraphs
My brother is gay and doesn’t believe in gay marriage. He believes that if it was legalised things such as divorce rates etc will be used against the gay community. I don’t think that’s a solid argument, but I find his stance interesting.
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Hope you get good marks for it Phoebe!
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One local journo said it best a couple of days ago. If you’re not in favour of gay marriage…don’t marry a gay person.
As far as I’m concerned, if you’re a couple enjoying a loving, committed relationship you should be able to marry each other regardless.
Here’s where I’ll be attacked, folks. Adjust the strap on your crash helmets. We’re in for another bumpy ride !
I believe that in a male/male marriage the word husband should not be used. In a female/female marriage the word wife should not be used. They are words traditionally used in a marriage between a male and a female.
Gender non-specific words and terms such as chairperson, actor, councillor, waitperson etc, are in common use. The language has been changed time and time again, supposedly in the name of warding off offence. Why shouldn’t some gender non-specific nouns be brought into play when same sex marriages are legalised ?
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If brand new terms are used then this is just another way of saying that gay marriage is “other”.
Many people use the words already to describe their same sex partner so why change the terminology?
I think the only people that would be offended by gay couples using the words husband and wife would be those that are offended by them being able to marry in the first place.
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Hey…all I did was suggest that in a world so insistent upon gender non-specifics, how about adding another gender non-specific terminology to the language !
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Yeah I know but my point is that it gives fuel to people who are opposed to gay marriage.
Perhaps once it’s entrenched in society then a new word or words can be found or indeed words will evolve as language always does.
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A gender non-specific term would give fuel to people who are opposed to gay marriage.
The words husband and wife wouldn’t ?
Yeah…for sure !
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With respect Bradley, I think it defeats the purpose. If you are going to accept gay marriage but then turn around and say that they should find different titles for each other isn’t that also discriminatory?
My gay friends already call themselves husbands, what’s wrong with that?
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Have it your way, yos.
Stupidly I’ve been thinking that years of stuffing around with the English language, creating gender non-specific terms, was about ending discrimination.
Wrong a-bloody-gain !
Apparently gender specific terms are discriminatory…..when it suits the user.
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You always sulk at the first sign of disagreement Bradley, (which usually is not too ong after your first post
).
“Have it your way” how ridiculous! Yes, now you’re ridiculous… In a non gender specific way.
These terms you speak of ARE about ending discrimination, but you speak of your disdain for the term “partner”, which I share, but now you suggest (never know if it’s tongue-in-cheek with you) that the terms husband and wife should somehow not apply? Do you suggest this because you genuinely ahve a problem with those terms being applied to gay people, I don;t think you do, so the question is why? If you think you are doing them a favour by suggesting this then fine, that’s your opinion, I just don;t understand the purpose of your statement that’s all.
A husband is a male partner to a spouse as far as I’m concerned, and a wife the female partner to a spouse. In my experience nobody wants to change the titles used. Same as they want marriage and not civil unions.
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I don’t sulk, and say so again and I’ll take my bat and ball and leave you to play by yourself in a very gender non-specific way
!
I figure that we are having to constantly alter the English language to suit someone else, why shouldn’t this be another one of those occasions.
A gay couple who I regularly get together with, refer to each other as “husband”, but do so very much tongue in cheek. They wish that someone would come up with a word to suit their relationship. I kinda figured that if they can feel this way, then so can I.
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Was that so hard? Now I know. That’s all I wanted.
I said as far as I know no-one (and I meant no gay people I know) have a problem using the word husband or wife. I stand by thta, but if your friends want a different term then that’s their view and I’m sure if there is call for that then eventually they will get that. My thing is that they should be able to use the title husband or wife if they want and I think you knew this.
By the way threatening to take your bat and ball and leave me by myself is sulking in my book.
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You had me at the start Bradley, but lost me with your nonsense about titles. I think they can call themselves whatever they want to. Wife/wife, husband/husband. Who cares?
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I was going to lose you at sometime, yos.
Proof that you can be right and wrong at the same time.
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What about ‘spouse’ – bit bland though, and ambiguous like partner.
Your point is controversial, but intriguing.
But I think if you used any other term, it would be confusing.
If one man introduced another man to me as his husband I would instantly understand their relationship.
And I think those Gender non-specifc words such as chairperson, actor etc are used because both a woman or a man could be a chairperson or actor. But I think really, only a man can be a ‘husband’ and a woman a ‘wife’.
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Spouse is good. Very gender non-specific. Regardless of their gender, if you were introduced to someone as “this is my spouse” you aren’t left wondering what is the state of the relationship.
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except if their spouse wasn’t present but only referred to.
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and had a Gender non-specific name!
“My Spouse Alex” – potentially awkward moment ahead!
“My wife/husband Alex” – Awkward moment avoided.
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Then….”you” would have a problem !
If “Jack” or “Jill”, who I was meeting for the first time made reference to his/her “spouse”, I could ask questions so as to establish the gender of his/her spouse.
If I chose not to ask questions, I might expect that at some stage during the conversation Jack or Jill might establish that for me by using the words he, she, my spouse John or my spouse Mary.
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I think you’re overcomplicating it Bradley.
I don’t think there is a need for a gender non-specific term for homosexual married couples.
A married man, regardless of sexuality, is by definition, a husband.
A married woman, regardless of sexuality, is by definition, a wife.
The traditional use of the terms is largely irrelevant, because male/female marriages are the only kind of marriages there have been.
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Yeah but you would sound silly…
Definition of ‘Wife’ is a married woman… why shouldn’t that apply to homosexual, married women?
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Bradley, I don’t really understand why you think a woman in a same-sex marriage suddenly has to be gender non-specific? She’s still a woman. And a man married to another man is still a man. Nothing about their gender or sex has changed, they are simply married. I don’t understand your argument at all, to be honest.
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How about we all acknowledge our support of gay marriages.
Let’s bitch, cough, burp, break wind and carry on about what titles everybody gets once the bill gets through parliament.
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Couldn’t agree more Bradley, but why couldn’t you just do that to start with
Peace brother!
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Because if I had…you would have had nothing to nitpick about on this thread !
Peace right back at you, sister !
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I can always count on you!
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So in summary you want me to get married but you don’t want me to be able to call my partner my wife? Are you going to enshrine that in the legislation?
Quite frankly I want the word ‘marriage’ abolished for all but the Christians…straights and gays can have civil unions. If you are a gay christian that wants to get married then have that fight with the church.
Lets put the secular back into the governments vocabularly.
Meanwhile anyone want to talk about ethics classes versus scripture classes?
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Amen to that!
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It’s simple – if you love someone, you should be allowed to marry them. Gay, straight, inter-racial, who cares! Love shouldn’t be something controlled by the Govt. The world won’t end because gay people get married!
Gay people pay taxes the same as straight people do, so why aren’t they afforded the same courtesy as us straight people? I believe marriage should be about 2 people who love each other and want to spend their life together. it’s not just about a man and a woman!
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Love is important, but an inadequate ethic for constructing or deconstructing marriage. I’d question whether taxpayer status was a particularly sound place to start either.
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What is an adequate ethic in your eyes? I’m genuinely interested.
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That’s the 64 million dollar question yos!
(sorry, clicked enter too soon)
Marriage is a specific definition of a particular relationship – historically and currently, a personal union between a man and a woman, with some kind of intent related to cohabitation, sexual intimacy, procreation, and property rights. The details will be different for everyone but there are some general features which are universal.
I guess the question about gay marriage revolves not just around expanding the definition to include homosexual couples, but also about questions of what exactly qualifies a couple to be eligible to become married. The relevant authorities have traditionally been the ones who have told us what is and isn’t kosher when it comes to this. Love is nice, but has never been a requisite factor, nor a qualification, for marriage.
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I really want to see your point gosh golly but I am missing it somewhere along the line.
We, the people, the citizens of Australia, a democracy, have the power to determine what is and isn’t kosher. Laws are made by us for the good of all citizens. To discriminate against a citizen because their relationship doesn’t allow them to procreate naturally is not only ridiculous but by extension would disallow straight couples who couldn’t or didn’t want to bear children from marying also.
I bring up procreation because from your list of what maketh marriage, that is the one thing that a homosexual couple is unable to do through natural means.
I don’t know why you are so quick to dismiss love as one of the least important factors as I’m sure most people would say that it would have to be one of the most important factors.
You still have not made a logical argument for any stance against gay marriage. You seem to not be willing to for fear of being challenged, but that is what this debate is about, challenging views, deconstructing them. The article may be sarcastic, but to most it makes perfect sense and demonstrates how the commo arguments against gay marriage do not make sense. Until someone puts forward an intelligent, non-religious argument, any rebuttal can only be put down to personal preference , ie, you would prefer it if same sex marriage was not allowed so you opose any arguments in favour of it, right now the govt and the marriage act concur with your preference. This will change, you can be sure of that. It will change very soon.
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Maybe in the olden days that was how marriage was constructed, but I would bet that most people nowadays get married for love. Call me stupid, but I know I did! When he asked, I said yes because I loved him. Wanted to build a life and family with him. Because I knew he would be a good father and husband and I couldn’t imagine my life without him.
My point was that people who happen to be gay should be able to ask and answer the same question. They shouldn’t be denied the opportunity to legally stand up in front of their friends and family and declare their love for each other. That’s what we did. We didn’t declare “some kind of intent related to cohabitation, sexual intimacy, procreation, and property rights” we declared our love and commitment to one another.
And as for the taxpayer comment, if they have to pay taxes and follow the laws the same as heterosexual people should (I say should as we know not everyone follows the laws or pays taxes), then why shouldn’t they be able to get married like us? Like Sprinkles37 said below, it’s about equality. We expect them to be equal in some ways, but deny them that equality in other areas and that is just not fair.
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If i was a tax payer and was told because i was a girl i wasnt eligable for the same rights as men i would be extremely pissed off. If you have to follow the laws but dont get the same rights its very unfair. All they want is to be treated equally…just like women, african americans, etc have in the past.
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I don’t want to destroy other people’s marriages.
I don’t want to start converting straight women.
I don’t want to recruit/molest your children (I am a lesbian, not a pedophile).
I just want to have a bit of cake, wear something nice and tell everyone how much I love my girlfriend. And have a bit of paper that legally allows us to be wife and wife.
Jeez. society is going to collapse and, to be honest, my friends and family would love a night out with an open bar. everyone wins.
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oops, should be ‘society is not going to collapse’
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Mia, I am more than a little tired of the insinuations that those of us who don’t jump up on a soapbox in favour of gay marriage are not doing so because we’re insecure, threatened and exclusive.
I find Rick’s article sarcastic and dismissive. His trivial strawman summaries of what are not always entirely stupid objections to gay marriage are insulting to the very many of us who would like to have an actual dialogue about what is a very important social issue, rather than a series of playground comebacks designed to belittle your opponent.*
For my part, I don’t think Australians have a clear and coherent enough view of what marriage even is, what it does and what it’s for, to begin debating who should or shouldn’t be allowed to do it. Everyone is arguing about this whole issue with a different picture in their head – no wonder we’re talking around in circles.
*Note that I do not see myself as Rick’s opponent, although I feel he clearly sees me as his.
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I’m sure several, if not many, people here would be willing to have an actual dialogue with you, myself included, if you would put forth your points. I promise you I won’t include any playground comebacks.
However in this comment, you seem to be as dismissive as you think Rick is, assuming that he sees you as an opponent, that ‘Australians’ as a whole don’t have coherent views on marriage etc, yet not contributing to the dialogue yourself.
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Thanks Nico.
I guess I just feel that given the tone of Mia’s introduction and the championing of Rick’s article in the comments, I’m not sure I have the time or energy to even begin addressing the presuppositions flying around.
Sorry to hear you don’t think critical appraisal of source material counts as contributing to the dialogue
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well, when I’m critiquing something I generally put forward my own rationale as to why I think they’re wrong!
However I am a research student so perhaps I am too mired in academia.
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If you have a different perspective let’s hear it. The point of the article is that the arguments so far presented against gay marriage don’t stand up to logical scrutiny, so if you have a view that would change that I would like to hear it.
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The point of the article is that Rick’s sarcastic deconstructions of some of the arguments arguments against gay marriage don’t stand up to how clever he thinks he is. I honestly don’t feel an article which seems to hold every view except the author’s in such deep contempt is really worth the time and energy a serious response would take.
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I don’t see you as my opponent. And this isn’t the be all and end all of the argument. But I have researched this ad infinitum and these ARE the most common arguments. They are not logical arguments, to my mind, but I believe my responses are logical. Happy to hear whatever other argument there is. I think this dialogue is good.
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Hi Rick.
It’s nice to know you don’t see me as your opponent. I do, however, feel incredibly attacked by your article, both in content and in tone. Why? Because you have taken many genuine reasons why people (including myself) question the idea of gay marriage, painted them to appear infantile or irrational, and torn them apart with sarcasm. I don’t feel like you have any intent of taking any objection I could possibly have seriously – in fact, you already haven’t.
I’m sure you have many great things to say on this. But such sarcastic language is a tool designed to wound and show contempt for your detractors – it’s not going to get anything done. It may only have been your intent to be irreverent (and goodness knows we could all find a larger funny bone on stuff like this sometimes) – but at the end of the day I’d have been much more interested in engaging with the content of your argument of you’d shown a little more respect in your tone.
Cheers
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I suppose gosh golly, the respectful tone you think Rick needs (which by the way, I don’t) is the same respectful tone Bob Katter needs when he talks about gay marriage.
Gosh golly- bottom line- would gay marriage hurt you? No. Do you feel threatened by it? It would appear so. Is it fair of you to feel attacked by an article supporting gay marriage, when you can get married and another (quite large) group in society can not? No.
You can have your cake and eat it too. It’s not fair to say that other people can’t too.
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for me the bottom line is not would gay marriage hurt me. No it won’t physically hurt me but thats not for me the point. My definition of marriage is that it is the union of a man and a woman that for me is the bottom line.
I’m one of those frustrating ones (sorry Rick) who could see an argument for supporting a civil union, giving the sames rights as marraige.
Likewise the argument used re: inter racial marriages does ot fit for me as my argument is based on the Bible and the bible doesn’t speak against interraical relations – it does howver speak against homosexual relationships
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When my grandparents got married, my grandfather wasn’t Catholic and my grandmother was. They were not allowed to have flowers or friends or family at the ceremony, they had to do it alone in the sacresty, that was the bottom line then. That was nearly 70 years ago. The church ended up apologising to the people who that discriminatory policy had effected.
Now, I don’t see a day when the Catholic church will ever allow their priests to perfom ceremonies for gay couples to be married, but they have done backflips before. They are just REALLY slow at keeping up with the times and really stubborn.
Did the bible speak against marriages of mixed faith? or was that a rule that made by the men who… well, made the rules?
In the same vein, it used to be illegal for blacks to marry whites, nothing to do with the bible, but that was how it was, that was the bottom line.
I was raised Catholic, but I cannot maintain a faith built on discrimination and dictation of people’s lives. I live according to my conscience, not some rules some men say God handed down. And if God did hand them down, then that’s not a God whose altar I want to kneel at. At least the govt can change every few years, at least the people have a say in the laws that govern us.
I remember watching the Brides of Christ and the women waiting for the Pope’s encyclical to be read, hoping it would allow for birth control, this was in the 60′s. When it didn’t, women who didn;t want to have more children were forced to take the pill in secret of get secret aboortions. That was what the church forced upon them with their antiquated notions. Men making rules for others to live by, wielding this power over it’s own followers.
In any case, it is not up to any church to decide who can get married, that is up to the govt, that is up to the people. You are entitled to your opinion and your adherence to the bible’s teachings. Those of us who reject those practices do get a say in our laws too though.
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Thanks Yos for your response, has given me more to try and get my head around.
Your last paragraph is what hits me the most, among my own beliefs I do believe in a democracy and given the polls on this topic I imagine this law will one day be changed. Which according to my beliefs makes me sad. Just because an idea is popular does not make it right.
Your points about inter-faith marriages/contraception ‘power’ in th church are another topic – there is no doubt the ‘church’ makes mistakes, God doesn’t – so much more i could try to say but i hope that is something of a response for you
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So what helps you decide what bits of the bible you cherry pick to support your beliefs? Are you all for stoning your neighbour to death if he looks at your goat sideways?
Are you an adherant to the eye for an eye messages in the bible?
It’s all bollocks with you selective bible quoters….whatever passage you can tease out to support your beliefs and ignore any of the others that don’t suit your agenda.
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Thanks Jen, I appreciate your point of view and your faith. What I don’t understand is how you say that if gay marriage is allowed, that will make you sad. Sometimes I think it is important to separate a person and their own thoughts from the teachings of their faith and the thoughts that imposes.
Though I was raised Catholic I don’t recall ever hearing any anti-homosexual sentiment at church or among people I knew. I guess it was just never spoken about. Turned out great for me because I didn’t grow up with the prejudices that seem to have been instilled in you. Don’t get me wrong, you sound like a decent and thoughtful person, but to put all of your ideals in what the church teaches you have to forsake a part of your own critical thinking or personal evaluation of morality.
For my part, church can be a wonderful place to be serene and introspective and reflect on one’s life, but in doing so you should be able to reach your inner self and get past the dogma and see that some things that the church teaches are just plain wrong. My problem with the church came about from the hypocrisy I saw as I grew up and I began to replace their forced morality with my own and for the most part I think mine is more righteous and has more integrity. You can only control yourself, you can only live by your own conscience. I believe in what some call Christian values, but are really just good ways to live your life. Live and let live, love and let love, be good to yourself and others. That is the essence of what Christ taught.
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Two Mummies – I’ve written above re: ‘cherry picking’ but if u would like me to respond specifically to the verses you’ve quoted would you be able to tell me where they are in the Bible?
Yos – It would make me sad because the laws would then make it easier for people to make the wrong decisions. Just like modern society makes it easier for people to make the bad decision to have sex before marriage.
It’s true that often the church does not speak openly against homosexuality even though it is a sin. It’s a balancing act to demonstrate to people god’s love but also to acknowledge sin.
My ideals were indeed shaped by my early church experiences, the faith of my parents and other people i know but I also believe they have been strengthened as i got older and have been able to critically evaluate. I’m sorry I don’t agree with your thoughts ‘on the essence of what Christ taught’ or ‘you can only control yourself and live by your own conscience” as a friend of mine said – Well Hitler lived by his own conscience as do most terrorists. It is not a good enough argument. There has to be a higher conscience we adhere to otherwise there will be chaos (born from selfish endeavours’
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You keep posting and yet offer nothing concrete other than your opinion that the article was sarcastic.
Please add to the debate with something more than just your feelings were hurt.
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maybe he doesn’t feel the need to be respectful of bigotry…
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Gosh Golly, perhaps you could rebut Rick’s article, answering each of the arguments Rick has listed. That way we could all see both sides of the argument clearly. Would you also please explain what your view of marriage is, what it does and what it’s for?
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I have thought about doing that, but I’ve decided against it. Not because my feelings are hurt, not because I don’t have anything concrete to offer, not because I feel threatened or afraid, but because I sincerely feel there is no point. Why on earth am I going to put my neck out to argue a case which has already been set up as moralising, backward nonsense?
My point in commenting today was just to say that as a dissenter from Rick’s point of view, I felt totally unable to actually engage with the content of his article given the way he (and to a large extent Mia) presented it. I’m really sorry that so many commenters seem to think that when it comes to a debate that at its heart wants to address issues of ‘equality’ and ‘inclusion’, asking for my differing views not to be presumed or mocked or treated sarcastically is apparently not adding to the discussion.
Over and out on this one for me I think.
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I definitely agree with you gosh golly. The tone of this article put me right off proper debate – but maybe that is the point.
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gosh golly, I think that I’m on your side a little bit. Earlier in the conversation I put forward my view that I supported gay marriage but didn’t feel comfortable with the terms husband and wife being used within the context of that situation.
Naturally, I copped it for daring to give an opinion. Think differently around here and the pitchfork brigade lets you have it.
Don’t be afraid to speak your mind because it only adds to the conversation. Sure, you’ll cop criticism. Hell…one day you may even cop constructive criticism.
That would be a treat, wouldn’t it !
But throw it right back at them. Your point is just as valid as any other presented in this forum.
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yes it’s valid when you actually make a point.
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Validity, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.
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The thing that drives me absolutely crazy is how the fundamentalist Christians make other Christians look bad. I have gay relatives. I have gay friends. I am all for them finding someone they want to spend their lives with, and being able to publicly declare and seal that. It makes me so angry that a bunch of conservatives who just want someone to hate are taking my religion, twisting it, and using it to fuel their own prejudices.
Like that fantastic letter from the mother of a gay son says, God wouldn’t put gay people on this earth just to give people someone to discriminate against and bully. Why would Jesus have been recorded as saying love your neighbour as yourself, if he’d really said ‘except gay people, totally don’t let them have the same rights as you and treat them like crap.’
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Also: totally agree with the second paragraph of Gosh Golly’s comment above.
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Great piece.
I may have said this before, but as a married mother of two, who was lucky enough to have these life choices, I would be so very happy to see these options available to gay couples currently denied them. Whether they take them up or not. Anything less is simply discriminatory. (As have been other exclusive laws which have been thankfully amended over the years.)
To those who disagree or feel their unions somehow threatened by this prospect becoming reality, I’ll let you in on a couple of things: 1. I’m pretty sure these future newlyweds are not planning on moving in with you after the ceremony 2. Another plus: none of this would even affect global warming.
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I’ve seen footage a couple of times in the last week of Bob Katter (very obnoxiously and condescendingly) saying that if people want to be in a relationship they can be, but don’t ask the government to bless it.
By that logic, shouldn’t marriage be abolished altogether?
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I agree….abolish marriage !
The end of mothers-in-law….bliss !
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Ewww. I never wanted to get married because I wanted Bob Katter’s blessing.
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I’m just confused by “Bob Katter” and “logic” being mentioned in the same breath…
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Why isn’t it considered discrimination that gay people aren’t allowed to marry? To me it is clear discrimination so I don’t know how we can have a law that is blatent discrimination. Please explain!
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“We want the same. Which is ironic, because that’s what homo means.”
Brilliant! I am standing and applauding
And will be there wiping my eyes and trying to catch your bouquet when the great day of equality dawns for you and everyone.
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Perhaps someone ought to submit all these positive responses to their local member who is supposed to be consulting with their consitutents about consensus for Gay marriage!
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Love your work Rick. x
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Rick Mortons article appears very ‘tongue in cheek’ or he thinks hetrosexuals are complete morons!
“If we let the Gays marry, I might turn gay”, what an utterly ridiculous statement…perhaps Morton has very little to write about these days.
As for religion, yes the bible teaches christians to ‘love thy neighbour’ not have sex with the same gendre.
If you have ever read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah in the bible, here’s how it goes ‘Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)
Those without religion wish to exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:25-27).
Obviously, not a popular opinion on this blog!!
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Anon again, I respect your right not to marry someone of the same sex because it is against your religious convictions. I suspect homosexual people would like the same respect for their right not be bound by the religious convictions of others.
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Not really a popular opinion in the 21st century either actually. xx
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Those are some very strong beliefs to hold, and you’re entitled to them. I fervently hope that you take all parts of your Bible literally and allow it to guide your behaviour in all things, thereby never having your steak anything other than well-done, and certainly never have any creamy sauce with that, as your Bible says you shouldn’t eat meat with blood in it, and never mix dairy with meat (Genesis 8:15-9:28).
However, they are your beliefs. Why do you believe you have the right to impose them on everyone else?
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AGREE!, Religion REALLY SHOULD NOT be invloved when it comes to human rights and equality.
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I certainly hope you have read the bible front top to tail and follow it to the letter.
If you have spilled your seed then you’d better shoot yourself in the head, because those who spill their seed shall be put to death.
(paraphrased)
Your religion has no power to tell me what to do, or anyone.
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I know several people who believe i have the power to ‘turn’ them gay. We must be a magical people.
And, in relation to Sodom and Gomorrah, being an Old Testament story, it holds less ‘sway’, as it were, in Christian teachings. As said in ‘The Catholic Encyclopedia’;
Religious principles and ideas (such as the notion of a sovereign God who is active in human history) are appropriated; religious practices (such as dietary laws and sacrificial routines) are not.
The dietary laws, of course, being lifted from Leviticus which has continuously been identified as a list of Judaic customs rather than Christian.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/texts/OT.htm (see ‘Christians Doctrine of the Old Testament’)
The Golden Rule of Jesus’ teachings is ‘Treat others the way you wish to be treated’ and, as a Christian, I would listen more to Jesus, who taught love and respect of all people, regardless of difference, than the Old Testament, which is more fire, brimstone and revenge.
Epic comment, sorry.
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Check your Romans reference, about being ‘inflamed with lust’ and ‘exchanging’ things. Now, randomly going and hooking up with other girls/guys just because you’re a bit randy one night or decide to give it a shot, sure, I can see why that would be considered sinful or immoral. What we’re talking about here is two people who were born that way, who aren’t just feeling lust, and genuinely want to commit to each other, and just because they’re gay doesn’t mean they’ve had sex before marriage.
I do agree that some of his chosen arguments imply heterosexuals are totally moronic rather than just picking up the key points of the anti-gay marriage movement, though.
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See, if you had put that as an argument for why the Church doesn’t accept gay marriage, I would say fair enough. But why is it an argument for discriminatory laws of state?
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Hi Anon Again,
That’s all well and good but I went to a Catholic school and basically what we learnt was that when Jesus came to earth God made a new covenant with the people. The old one that was made when the 10 commandments were passed down to Moses was put to the side and we were instead asked to follow Jesus and his example and that this would show you what God requires of you. In the Bible Jesus very famously handed down the new commandments. The first was to love the Lord your God with your whole heart body and mind. The second to love your neighbour as you love yourself. As you cannot call yourself a CHRISTian unless you follow the example of Jesus CHRIST then surely this is the commandments that you know Jesus and God want you to follow.
My point is this.
If we are all thinking of the same Jesus who befriended prostitutes and stopped men stoning women and helped sick people and was generally inclusive and loving then HE WOULD NOT CONDONE THE VILIFICATION OF HOMOSEXUALS. Interpret the bible however you like. Believe in hate and badwill towards people who are different from you. Just don’t expect a high five off Jesus and a one way ticket to heaven at the end.
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Gold.
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Yes Friedly Guest Jesus befriended prostitutes, stopped men stoning women. etc but I believe it is written in the New testament that when he intervened to stop the stoning he told the adulterous woman “go and SIN NO MORE” not ” go on sinning”.Jesus definitely loved everyone but he certainly made it clear he did not approve of certain behaviours.
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the above anonymous quote is mine, but somehow i cant edit it to put my name on it
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The societies of Sodom and Gomorrah were condemned due to their promiscuity, materialism and selfishness. I would argue that a couple seeking to enter into a marriage are choosing an institution which turns its back on promiscuity and selfishness.
PS: this is my interpretation and I think we need to remember here that the Bible is always subject to human interpretations, and as humans we are all imperfect. God gave us His word through the Bible, and it is hugely arrogant to believe that our interpretation is the only one, or that we know everything He meant for us to know through that word. I think it is more important to apply the golden rule and treat others as you would have them treat you. For me that means putting aside personal beliefs and letting adults decide what is best for their own lives while I work on deciding what’s best for mine.
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Rick, where the bloody hell were you when I needed you last night?
Was discussing this with Husb over a few (read: too many) glasses of red and it ended with me getting shouty (‘but it’s just not fair’) and sleeping in the spare room.
My Husb is generally what i’d call a fair and compassionate guy, hence why I was sooo shocked & dismayed at his firm ‘anti’ ideas on this issue. He would not say he discriminates against gays, yet he put forward some of the ‘arguments’ you listed. Sadly my answers were nowhere near as rational & articulate as yours.
Have just sent him the link to your post.
Ding ding. Round two tonight ( minus the wine lol)
Thanks for a great post
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I want gay air weddings. I’ll sign a petition for that
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Totally loved reading this.
So inspired and as a heterosexual married woman with two young children this is everything I would argue, for the greater good of the gay community…
Especially when it concerns the future (possible) interests of my children!
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I believe, Rick, you missed The Australian’s two new arguments:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/gay-marriage-demands-should-be-left-on-shelf/story-e6frg6zo-1225956787304
1) Men are cheaters. So two gay men can’t actually remain loyal to each other. (I think that was the argument, but my brain was melting).
2) Quote: “Among the reasons the Greens are so keen on same-sex marriage is that they want to reduce the population and drive down national fertility.” (Yes, The Australian seriously published that sentence).
And traditional media wonder why people won’t pay for that kind of analysis (and why blogs are so popular).
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Hmmm. Arguments put by the former speech writer to John Howard and published in The Australian. None of it surprises me.
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Yes, former PM Howard is anti gay marriage. But let us not make any bones about it. PM Gillard, Treasurer Swan and other Labor cabinet members are also against gay marriage.
Apparently, it’s not just a malady of the conservative members of parliament.
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Totally agree Bradley. But while Gillard, Swan, et al are doing nothing (at the moment) to change things, it was Howard who actively brought in legislation to “define” marriage. There is no doubt that he pursued a very conservative social agenda.
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Perhaps it’s time to stop blaming the “previous” government and start to question why some of us chose to lend our support to a party that apparently wishes to pursue the social agenda with the same conservatism.
John Howard has gone. Julia Gillard has the keys to the Lodge now.
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As a matter of fact, I supported neither of those parties at this election or the last. I support the party that is apparently trying to bring down our birth rate by supporting gay marriage (sarcasm again…)
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“Perhaps it’s time to stop blaming the “previous” government ”
I suppose that would be possible if one could ignore their legislation by simply saying, ‘Oh that was the previous government’s law, so it doesn’t exist now.’
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The ALP was going to change everything.
Why haven’t they ? More importantly, why aren’t they ?
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Oh hold on. Apparently it’s the widespread use of contraception and abortion which is bringing about a state of affairs where gay marriage looks like not a big deal.
Watch out, it’s the women’s fault again…
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And at the end, his argument comes down to polling numbers. Because that kind of pure, cynical political pragmatism should should be the deciding factor in an argument about human rights (that was sarcastic…)
My brain’s melting too…
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Great article.
I though the purpose of this “new thinking, fantastic government” with a women as Prime Minister and having the Greens on their side, who has a gay leader to beable to say yes they do have the right to be equal and have the right to marry the one person they they want to spend the rest of their life with. i think i picked the wrong government….
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You certainly did take your time then !
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Too right Rick…
Some dear friends of my husband and I want to get married but obviously cant… and it is just so cruel.
Marriage is about celebrating the love between two people and formalizing the comittment they have to one another. Denying them of this right is just wrong.
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On balance I’m in favour of gay marriage but one concern I have which hasn’t really been answere either because it’s too hard or hasn’t occurred above concerns polygamous marriage.
While I suspect the number of people wanting an incestuous marriage would be so vanishingly small that it would never happen (so the argument above is a bit of a red herring), I suspect there are quite a few who would want to have second or even third wife (there have been claims in Europe already that not allowing this is discrimminatory). This would be a really bad idea for many reasons – the potential burden on social security, such marriages would not be bastions of women’s rights, how do you give the rights of a spouse to two or more people etc. But my concern is that at the moment we can say marriage is about 1 man and 1 woman full stop therefore we don’t even consider anything else. Once you amend the sexes involved as being an arbitrary choice, what valid argument do you have for an equally arbitrary decision about how many people can be married? Unlike gay marriage, I think this actually is a really serious threat to an important social institution.
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I don’t see what polygamous marriage has to do with gay marriage
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File all slippery slope arguments under “Bestiality” please. Each topic (beasts/incest/plural marriage) can be considered on it’s own and has nothing to do with the right of GLBT to marry.
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Not a particularly strong argument. Like incest, there is no serious constituency for bestial marriage and never will be absent social change outside our wild imaginings. But there are already movements who seriously argue that there should be a right to polygamous marriage for quite similar reasons for gay marriage.
But if you don’t think polygamy is a potential problem it must be due to:
- you don’t think it would actually be a problem if it came about
-there are no people who want polygamous marriage who would use gay marriage as a case as to why the completely arbitrary choice of 2 married people is no more fundamental than opposite genders
- we would be able to keep marriage to two people of whatever genders without enlarging it to any other number
Which of these and why? As I said, I support gay marriage but I don’t think ignoring potential problems does any favours to managing a quite fundamental change.
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I’m guessing that you don’t object to, say, inter-racial marriage, but you do object to gay marriage. Isn’t it possible for someone to object to polygamous marriage but not gay marriage? Supporting gay marriage does not mean a free-for-all complete lack of morals or limits. And thinking that something is not a threat is certainly not the same as thinking it would be ok if it did happen. E.g. No, I don’t like the idea of Australia being “invaded” by terrorists disguised as “boat people” but I don’t believe that’s going to happen.
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Cac, I’m glad you support gay marriage, excellent.
Just before I go on, I’ll point out again there is no connection between same-sex marriage and polygamy. They are two different issues. Suggesting one will lead to the other (and then to the end of civilisation and zombies stalking the Earth, as is generally implied) is not a valid argument. However, for the sake of dinner table discussions…
The similarities between same-sex marriage and multiple partner marriage are limited, other than both are illegal right now.
Marriage is between two consenting adults. Legally, their rights are well established, be it divorce, child welfare or property. An extension include GLBT by removing discrimination against GLBT is completely straightforward. Plus the removal of the discrimination increases the overall equality of Australian citizens.
With polygamy, there is a lot of reasons to be cautious. For starters, marriage between multiple adults must be a legal minefield. Property during divorce anyone? Of course, ‘it ain’t legal’ isn’t an argument, so serious questions need to be asked about equality within the marriage and also child welfare. If we aren’t to ignore the elephant in the room, polygamy isn’t women marrying lots of men, or two women marrying two men – it’s one man marrying multiple women within a non-secular structure, and all that that implies.
Plus, what do the left-over blokes do?
It isn’t simply anti-polygamy discrimination, there are real issues that need to be discussed before you would gain mainstream acceptance of polygamy.
Also, polygamy isn’t a carbon copy of the hetro-commitment called marriage the way gay marriage is. Two blokes marrying each other challenges straight marriage in no way. Most straight people, married or not, can relate that two adults want to publicly commit to each other, even if they are both of the same sex.
Can they relate to one man marrying ten women? For starters, it is a direct challenge to two person marriage and the nuclear family unit. Unlikely to gain acceptance.
So my answer is the last option. My opinion, and it would take a lot to change it, is that marriage will be easily held to be between two adults.
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Since when did polygamy have anything REMOTELY to do with gay marriage?
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It comes down to individual rights.
If an individual or individual wish to marry, then who is anyone to stop them, polygamous, gay or incestuous.
Adult humans are have complete ownership over who they love.
Who is anyone to tell them otherwise.
But that’s the problem, you have feminists telling men that abortion is fine, but telling women pornography is wrong.
You have people saying gay marriage is okay, but polygamous marriage between consenting sentient beings is wrong.
You have governments telling you theft is illegal, but tax is compulsory.
…and so on.
How about one rule.
You can’t tell anyone what to do, unless they are hurting another person’s rights.
Let people live and love who they want.
…and mind your own business!
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I think everyone acknowledges the world is a little more complex than ‘one rule for everyone’ and I’d assume most can understand the difference between issues like abortion vs pornography, theft vs tax.
Ethics are rarely black and white. But a line must be drawn, the discussion here is about moving it a little to promote equality.
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If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get one. Great post
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Hear hear! Or is it here here? Whatever. I agree with Rick.
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Rick, I love you. All that needed to be said and you were the man to say it.
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One word. SNAP!
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Outstanding! A great piece, cogently argued. Thank you. I’ll be tweeting it to the world, or at least to the dozen or so people following me.
And do kitten-whisker hats come in a range of styles and colours?
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Love this post Rick! I especially identify with point 3 about procreation. Really bugs me as I am infertile due to medical issues but also recently engaged to the man of my dreams. While we each have a child from our past marriages, does the fact that I can no longer bear a child in this marriage make my desire to remarry illegitimate? I don’t think so, but thin edge of the wedge you conservatives… Linking marriage to procreation is nothing more than a desire to limit peoples’ options to those that the ‘morality police’ would consider correct.
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Great post.
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What is the big conspiracy that is stopping legalising gay marriage?
Is there a smoking man that lies in the corridors of Parliament to whisper through the darkness everytime it looks like gay marriage might be getting higher on the PM’s, any PM’s agenda?
We really have had no sound, logical explanation as to why it can’t be made legal so who is the Government afraid of? The Church, Businesses, heterosexual couples over the age of 65?
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*applause*
I also get really sick of people using the whole “why would gay people want to get married anyway” argument.
1. It’s not for you to decide a gay person’s view of marriage on their behalf.
2. Not every gay couple would get married just because they could.
3. Even if you argue that marriage is an institution that has its roots in control of women and land, and excluding homosexuals, we have the chance now to change it. Inter-racial marriages used to be banned too.
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Here here Rick!
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Here, here, or is it hear hear…I never know. Brilliant writing as always and I totally agree.
I don’t have a hat made of kitten whiskers, but I’d like one.
N x
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I am one of “The Gays” that Rick writes about, actually I am a lesbian. I have shared the last 15 years of my life with the one woman who I plan to spend the rest of my life with. We have three children born in the last six years and we have a house, mortgage, garden, friends, family and school responsibilities that all people do. We pay our taxes, we obey the law, we teach our children morals and we go to church.
We went to a church wedding on the weekend and we were again amazed at all the references to Man and Woman in the service. Afterwards we were talking with friends at the reception about this issue. In essance, we just want what others in this country are able to have in their relationships, that is, public commitment and recognition of their relationship – nothing more (And I have had the pattern for my dress for about ten years!)
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if you pay your taxes, have a mortgage and are obeying the rules-as a ‘gay’ then i say revolt until equality reigns? no civil rights movement got any where with niceness or meetings…i say something big and drastic needs to be done. love is love, gay or straight. i support gay marriage as well as equal pay and proper health care for the indigenous. Australia, since Howard, has gone backward, lets look forward and be a lead by example nation.
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I know it’s not quite the same but why don’t you have a wedding anyway? Sure, you won’t be married in a strictly legal sense but there are no other forms of legal discrimination at the Federal level now anyway. I’m sure you could find a civil celebrant to conduct the wedding and as I am sure all your friends and family accept you as a couple they would be happy to recognise your wedding and marriage in a social sense anyway.
It’s not perfect but let’s face it, even if the law changed there will always be some people who won’t recognise your marraige as legitimate anyway. The only people who really matter are those that you love and care about.
Just a thought – I’d hate to see a pretty dress pattern go to waste!
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hi Steph, I know that you had really lovely intentions here but quite frankly its a little bit like saying have a frozen fish finger its not sashimi grade kingfish but its still good….
Why should a gay person be denied the right to marry the person they love? Near enough ISN’T good enough not even a little bit.
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Freaking awesome, my lovely. If you weren’t totally gay and far too young and gorgeous and talented, I’d want to marry you, for your brilliance and eloquence.
It does my head in that such arguments continue to be made, in the public sphere and in private conversation, here and now.
When will people, and politicians, understand that this is an issue of human rights, no more, no less? Legislating to permit all consenting adults to love and commit as they choose is going to help weave our society together more tightly, not unravel. Bring it on! x
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It’s just so LOGICAL. Why do we still have to convince people that this is no big deal to anyone… except for the people who it excludes!!?
If you honestly think that it will somehow affect your own life or marriage then you must think you are higher class of citizen (and you should probably see a marriage counsellor).
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What a fantastic post… I totally agree with everything he wrote. It’s time that things changed, why won’t those in parliament listen?
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Rick! You are a star. Love you and love your work.
You’ve nailed it with this.
I can’t see other peoples problem with same sex marriage. You aren’t asking them to change their lives, just let others enjoy theirs as a married couple. If people are secure in themselves and their own relationships, what others do should have no bearing on their lives. Love is Love. xx
Hope I made sense but you know my history of comment bombing, so I may be back.
Thanks for having Rick Mia.
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I was talking about this topic on the weekend with my mum and we were comparing to way back in the day the abuse of human rights against other races (black slavery in the states) and women’s rights. Oh, how sad.
I have a friend who is gay and is with the woman she wants to spend the rest of her life with. She was telling me that it feels horrible to walk down the street and know that because of her sexuality she does not have the same rights as others. I hadn’t thought of it like that but how awful would that be?!?!!?
Get over it already and legalise it!!
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