Kristina Keneally
If you’re a leader, you have a choice. Being there for your kids, or being there for your job.
But you can’t have it both ways. Not now, not tomorrow.
That’s the message from writer, former political advisor and politician’s wife Cassandra Wilkinson who says she’s been there and seen just how impossible it is to balance everything and do it well.
Former New South Wales Premier Kristina Keneally and Cassandra’s old boss tweeted this last night:
“I suspect the sisterhood won’t like it, but Cass makes some excellent observations re leadership & parenting.”
Cassandra writes:
“Tasmanian Lara Giddings said recently being pregnant and giving birth while being a political leader was the last taboo. She characterised the achievement of such a milestone as the next frontier to follow electing women, electing mothers and women having children while in high office.
As a woman whose children had a politician for a father for eight years; as a woman who has many friends who are MPs with kids; and as a woman who worked for a political leader who was a mother, I hope nobody is in a rush to break this last barrier.
When my husband was elected, one MP’s wife said, “Welcome to the widow’s club.” I’m happy to say that after two terms our marriage was stronger than ever but it was also true that my children saw their father only two or three nights a week for eight years. That’s not uncommon in a state marginal seat and for federal politicians, a Canberra office makes it far worse.
As a politician you may love your spouse and children as fiercely as any poet but you can’t cheat the nights. Parliament sits late, school parents and citizens associations meet, angry mobs expect an audience, ribbons need to be pinned and plaques dedicated.”
But it’s babies, she says, that are the real deal breaker.
She says not even Kristina Keneally, whose children were ‘well into their primary years’ could have managed the Herculean workload of being Premier if she’d had a newborn in her care.
“One afternoon I joined a group of younger colleagues discussing their enthusiasm for running for office. My suggestion they wait until after they had children was met with scorn; we can do it, look at her they said. I did look at her and always found something to admire. But I didn’t envy her even once as I walked out the door to do the school run, leaving the more ambitious to find reasons to be seen lingering into the night.”
What do you think, are there some jobs where ‘having it all’ is just an empty phrase?
Comments
149 Comments so far
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The feminists can deny it all they like but there are only a certain number of hours in the day and a definite amount of time your children need from you.
I work in a professional job part time with 2 primary school aged children but personally would not like our prime minister worrying about the joys of children such as head lice, dress up days , homework etc . Running the country is tough and time consuming (I have no actual experince mind you but running a house is tough enough) and needs full attention.
It may not be fair but some things just have to be accepted.
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I agree with you. What makes me the most disillusioned with these articles is never once is any consideration placed on what sort of life the child / children are going to be living while mum is fulfilling her career dreams. Often its one of being passed from carer to carer and seeing their mum very little. If they’re happy to choose that sort of life for their kids good luck to them, but its not ideal.
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This story is awful. Do you actually believe in what these women are saying?
You should read more on opt out parents and discuss paternity leaves. Shame on you mamamia.
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And yet if you’re Julia…you are met with constant criticism from other pollies and the general public for not having a baby!
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I know. The constant assumption that every woman wants a baby is a bit tiring, and the phrase “having it all” just implies that something is missing if you don’t have kids.
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I agree and I’m sick of the the assumption that if you have kids and not a career you’re somehow less of a person. I chose to be at home and raise my children and while I miss the social interaction of the wrokplace I don’t consider myself half a person because I no longer work in an office. I believe raising well adjusted respectful kids is a bloody important job.
Feminism isn’t about having it all it’s about choice and everyone has a right to make their own.
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Perhaps being a politician would be hard with young children, show me any “career” that isn’t!!. We all make choices about our lives and dip in and out of family and career years as circumstances demand, IF we are lucky enough. Politicians, by the nature of their job, can’t really be half present (although some of them do an excellent job of it) but although the mantra around at the moment is that you can have it all, I don’t think you can at really high levels of responsibility, you can only have a little bit of it without being forced to delegate a fair bit to others. Being the spouse of a politician and having small kids is not anything harder than many of the rest of us with husbands that travel or have all consuming time demanding careers. Many professions/ jobs demand hours that aren’t family friendly and can be far worse than politicians hours. Some of the people I know that do it the toughest are those who are on relatively low incomes, so need both partners working, often at opposite hours of the day, to support their families.
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I have gone back to part time work after being a SAHM for 9 years. I have a fantastic (male) boss who never minds if I have to leave to take a child to the doctor, go to a school play, do tuckshop or whatever. I have a laptop that I can bring home to tidy up any loose ends that I didn’t get finished during the day. I work from 9 until 3.30 so am home when the children get home. I am flexible with my days off. I love my job even though it’s not some sort of glamorous career.
My husband has a good job, earn heaps and is very involved with the children and is helpful round the house. I feel that I have it all, but others would probably think that I don’t. But when I was a SAHM with two little children, my husband was on much lower money and we struggled a bit and lived in a crap house I still thought I had it all.
The concept of ‘all’ is subjective and changeable.
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For all of us whose career has taken a back seat in these situations, I’m starting to wonder “where does this leave me in 5 years time?” When my kids are older and more independent, and my skills set is out of date?
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There’s no such thing as having it all with any full-time job. It might be a choice for some, and others may have no choice in the matter at all. But either way, you can’t work and be there for your kids. For those of us who have to, it’s tough. It’s hard work trying to make up, trying to do all the chores and the rest of your work when the kids are in bed and when you’re supposed to be sleeping yourself, just so that you can spend an hour, maybe, helping with homework or just chatting and hanging out. If there’s some other adult(s) to share the caring, that’s great, and I think it’s great for the children, too. But you can’t do it all yourself and if you’re working, you have to accept that others will be close with your child (this is a good thing) but that you also will not know them as much or in the same way as if you were there all day. You just don’t.
I strongly believe that those people out there who claim they are doing it all are doing a misservice to others attempting to work out work-life balance and what their kids need. Other people need to fill in the gaps, and our kids need them to. It’s a fact that mostly the kids like it better if it’s a close adult or adults, rather than OSHC or childcare. There’s no getting around it. We have to honestly say that care needs to be shared if a parent is working a significant amount of the time. There’s no way you can do a 70 hour a week job and be the main person in your childrens’ lives, too. So, yep, that means political leadership and parenting your children yourself just don’t mix. Doesn’t mean you don’t love your child, or that they won’t love you. But you aren’t doing the parenting, you’re working.
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My husband’s idea of supporting me returning to work/study is to say: “Sure I’ll support you” and then jumping on a plane for yet another business trip.
The actual planning, driving, schedules, lunches, uniforms, school bags, excursions, dress up days, after school activities are up to me to figure out. But I have his support. Oh yes I do.
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Sounds familiar.
Mind you, plenty of other professions don’t see their kids either. Try being married to a surgeon or a high profile business leader. Never around during the week. If my kids see their dad from Monday to Thursday, they consider it a bonus. But Friday Saturday Sunday? Family time is sacrosanct. Our sacrifice I guess, but the routine works for us.
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Mine was the same. Over the years though he has become much better at helping when he realised what exactly was involved, and I partially relinquished control. (that was harder than I thought)
He still takes off overseas very regularly, but I’ve got such a well oiled machine at home now, I can go away for work and leave him and he knows what to do. Actually, more like – he can follow detailed instructions!
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This is an issue for all community members, it’s important and it needs discussing. It’s not just about politics, but like the author and the former Premier ivevhad fairly direct experience of it and the demands are extraordinary. We are involved in ongoing and constant debate about women’s employment market participation, but we don’t challenge the way the employment market looks and what that means for women and men. We pontificate about men and their roles, but apart from one example I know of (Diversity Council Australia of course) we don’t ask men what they think and how they think we can change structures to enable better, meaningful participation by all. As has been stated elsewhere, our employment market still has structures and expectations of forty years ago. Something’s gotta give!
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I agree with others who have said this shouldn’t be considered a woman’s issue. In my opinion it shouldn’t be an “issue” at all for parents (not talking about single paents). As a couple we decided who was doing what before we even tried to have our babies.
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I think Bowerbird has said this already, but I think it is so important I’ll say it again. If the culture we are in doesn’t accommodate parenting as well as working in a leadership position, should we accept/bemoan this or do something about it? Why SHOULD a politician/CEO/leadership type person have to work every hour God gives? Why CAN’T we develop systems that allow part time/job sharing/work from home? Why CAN’T people do their job with a small child or infant? I know that for a Dr or whatever that wouldn’t be practical, but a Prime Minister isn’t a Dr. Someone said below something about a Dr doing a 17 hour operation – I don’t think that one Dr would do the whole thing, not would I want them to! Why can’t we start to work towards a world where family are seen as a positive part of someone’s work life (if they so choose) rather than a liability? I know that I am lucky, but as a trainee priest I have worked throughout two pregnancies and two breastfed babies. They have come on visits, to the Cathedral, to lectures and workshops, to weddings and funerals. I know things are different for a pollie but why can’t we normalise on site childcare, more reasonable working hours etc. I would be happy for my representative to work smarter, not harder.
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Thanks, JosieY, that’s exactly what I was trying to say. This isn’t only about individual families and their choices (although that is obviously very important!) – its also about what’s best for our community as a whole.
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Agree, agree agree!
When it comes to ridiculously demanding jobs such as corporate CEO or politician, I’m heavily influenced by Germaine Greer’s comment on feminism: ”Why fight for liberation, and settle for equality?”
Feminism has meant I now have the opportunity to be a political leader, if I choose — that’s equality, and I’m glad of it. But liberation to me doesn’t mean working ridiculous hours in overly demanding jobs the way men have had to for generations. It’s about challenging the assumptions behind those expectations.
I found this article irritating for that reason – it just accepts the status quo and tells women to amend their ambitions accordingly. But why should we settle for job design that assumes/demands a family life out of date with reality and, in doing so, effectively excludes a chunk of people who might be really quite good at it? Why shouldn’t we fight for job-sharing, part-time meaningful roles, working from home and decent work-life balance? I’ve implemented all of that in a conservative, male-dominated workplace and have proven to my Board that it not only works but it out-performs, so liberation is possible. But accepting well-meaning but misguided advice like this article on face value won’t get any of us (male or female) too far at all.
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A few years ago I read Affluenza. I think one chapter in it was talking about relationships in one of the European countries – somewhere like Denmark – where women did not find the “high powered” men as attractive as in other countries. Instead they tended to be more attracted to men that would be more likely to contribute equally to family responsibilities.
I think that is the sort of cultural shift that would be required. Once it becomes normal for everyone (not just women) to be juggling family responsibilities, then we will see true flexibility come into play.
A friend of mine recently took “maternity leave” (as his work classified it) from his work on a part time basis when his daughter was 6 months old. His wife returned to work 2 days a week, and he took unpaid maternity leave 2 days a week. I thought it was a very brave and fantastic thing to do.
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One of the women I admire most was interviewed by Kerry O’Brien in Sept 2008….
KERRY O’BRIEN: It’s all there, get used to it.
You have had a stellar career, champion of women in a man’s world, achieving real change, raising five kids, the embodiment of super woman in that sense in the ’80s and ’90s, as it was talked about then. But the reality of trying to be super woman can tear women apart, can’t it?
QUENTIN BRYCE: It does, it absolutely exhausts them. For a very long time now I’ve been saying to young women, you can have it all, but not all at the same time. How important it is to take very good care of yourself, of your mental and physical and spiritual wellbeing, it’s hard to do. It’s easier to be a workaholic than to have a truly balanced life. It’s very tough for a lot of women teetering on that tight rope of balance and balancing too many responsibilities.
How true: you can have it all, just not all at once
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I plan to have it all.
I had a stellar career, well paid, highly enjoyable and I was on the fast track, but then when I had the kids I decided to chuck it in. It’s a fact of life that my husband’s and my career cannot coexist along with the health and happiness of our family. So I am taking a five year hiatus until the kids start school, and enjoying raising my own kids. Then the plan is to slowly ease myself back into the workforce as my own boss, until I run a multibillion dollar empire. We’ll see how it goes
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Exactly my plan as well and in action at the moment. Haven’t achieved the millions yet. Just give me time.
I gave up work because 2 workaholics and children don’t mix. I have LOVED being a stay at home mum, but knew, financially, it couldn’t be sustained. So I went back to study, choosing a career that I think will be more conducive to working from home around a family. 2 years later, I am writing this from Spain on our way home after 6 months in Denmark on a scholarship to further my study and work experience. My children have been with me the whole time. The uni and perhaps others, have thought me crazy, but I can be strong minded at times. I’m a package deal and the uni has had to deal with it. To their credit they did. I intend to keep going as I have. Sharing my crazy experiences with my children (who have benefited from travelling and meeting extended family all over the place) and finding a work life balance that works for us.
I agree, you can’t have it all at once and I couldn’t do this without being in a partnership. However, work places also need to change their mentality. Parents in the workplace are a fact, companies will need to change to accommodate the reality of 21st Century life.
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so why dont men have to make a choice?
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I am a single parent who works full-time. I would not cope without the parenting support of my ex. And I have no social life. Something always has to give.
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I’m a single parent to 3 kids, work full time and the kids’ father is not in their lives ( his choice) also, I don’t have any family in Aust. It’s tough and lonely at times and I definitely have no life while my x has a new life, does his own thing and doesn’t pay a dime for his kids. I think our society, community and leaders should stop accepting this as a norm and bring those fathers to task and force them to take responsibility for their kids. I have 10 years until my youngest is 18 and maybe then I can aspire for some life. I just wish my friends were more thoughtful and actually offered to have them every once in a while..
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Hi Ossieleo
Your life matches mine. Three kids, I work full time and my kids’ father also not in their lives by his choice.
My ex has now been forced to pay (a very small amount, trust me!) child support but he owes thousands (while he has overseas holidays every year with his new partner).
I support your call to bring these fathers to task! CSA is pathetic at looking out for the interests of the children, who suffer when fathers choose not to support them, and actively avoid paying what they are told by the system they should.
Hang in there, it’s tough isn’t it?!
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sometimes it brings me to tears.. my last relationship fell apart, partly due to the fact that we had my kids all the time without any breaks and with no financial assistance..
Thank you for your comment, nice to know that I am not alone in this.
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Having it all is overrated. What is ‘it all’ anyway? I am sure that most people’s definition of having it all would be different. I think modern women have been sold a furphy on this, it’s not so much that we want it all, we are made to feel that we SHOULD want it all and that if we are not frantically busy every moment that somehow we are wasting time. I think the concept of having it all is a major contributor to our old friend ‘mother’s guilt’ which does no-one any good – working, SAHM or otherwise. Feminism should have been about choices but in some aspects (not all of course!) it hasn’t done women any favours.
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Agree 100%
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I think that, no matter what our job, there is always a balance – we cannot have it all even though people claim we can. That’s not to say that people won’t be happy with the balance that they strike, but they can’t have it ‘all’, in the end something has to give (and hopefully it is something they are happy to give away).
For me I gave up career progression (and the guarantee of part-time work) in order to be home with my kids during their baby years. But if I had returned to work I would have had to give up some of that very impressionable and important formative years to other carers, and that wasn’t worth it for me. It’s not always rosy, and sometimes I really wish I could call in sick for my ‘job’ (and it would be nice to have the extra money), but we’re happy with the balance that we have struck.
All that being said, I do think that different careers have different limitations on striking that balance. For example, I’m lucky that with casual teaching I can still do the school run and be home for the holidays, others don’t have that option.
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I have always said that I needed a “wife”. It’s not really a job you can outsource easily. Even if you outsource cleaning, childcare, drops offs, pickups, grocery runs, preparing meals, sourcing costumes for school concerts, purchasing clothing and new shoes at least twice a year for the unexpected growth spurts,and supervising homework…..someone still needs to carry the “thought load” of what needs to be done, by when and by whom..
I am firm believer that a family can usually only manage one really serious high powered career at a time. All of the most successful women in leadership roles I have ever worked for have been able to have their husbands take a back seat and pick up the “wife” load while they focus on their work.
Dual professional careers are possible, sure. We are an example of that. But I have taken my foot off the pedal of ladder climbing beyond middle management in order to be able to manage the family. Even Kristina Keneally has admitted that her husband took a back seat professionally while she pursued her political ambitions.
I have never in the 20 years I have been working seen it work successfully any other way.
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My thoughts exactly. The planning, organising and managing of the family and household are vital if both partners/parents work.
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I love that term, the “thought load”.
I agree, it’s the hardest job, and the least possible to outsource.
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It’s actually the thought load that exhausts me more than anything else in my life.
I will be working on something very important at work, but in my head I will be thinking three or four days ahead…..what food do I need to buy, what meals am I going to make, do I need extra babysitting, who will be available, what am I going to buy for the two parties my kids have on the weekend, how will I juggle the two kids sport so that we both get to watch and exercise ourselves…..it never ends.
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Amen sister!
I’ve just started a new job and have heaps to learn in a limited time. My head is spinning with work logistics, and I spent my lunch hour today sorting out my daughter’s dance class, which has moved times twice in 3 days. I came home, made dinner, supervised homework and negotiated the arrangements for what she wants to do after the swimming carnival, which conveniently finishes at lunch time.
I’m lucky enough to have lots of help, my parents live close by, my husband pulls his weight at home, we pay a cleaner but the thought load seems to be all in my head.
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I used to say I needed a ‘wife’ before I married the human mollusc. What I got was a big girl with a dick…
Loving the ‘though load’ term, too. Think it comes with the X chromosome…
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One thing i have learnt having children and have believed for a long time is that:
Woman today can have it all, just not at the same time.
Something will always give, either your family or you children, its a choice we as woman have to make, wether we like it or not, this I feel will never change and one that men most times do not have to make.
Politics would have to be one of the hardest for woman to have to juggle, the demands are just to great, but I am sure this happens to many woman in all professions.
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Reading the comments below, it seems that we agree that it is bloody tough to have it all (if that is even possible). So, what would make it easier to get closer to having it all? If you had your “wish list” (even if you know it would never happen), what would make it easier for you?
For example, for me, if they had schools that took kids for before school care from 7.30 and then ran programs after school until 6, all at the one campus, it would make life a lot easier. Suddenly a lot of childcare juggling etc.
Childcare facilities in the city near my work (or even in it) would also be awesome. It would save the 5pm dash from work to make it back to the daycare before 5.30 or 6.
How about you?
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Our local primary has before care and after care 7.30 to 6.15 and do holiday program in school holidays, except xmas to mid jan. So we have to have holidays then.
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That may certainly make life easier but we really need to stop and ask ourselves if that is what we want for our kids? 11 hour days at school? Is it worth it? Not everyone has a choice about this I know but maybe we sometimes have more choices than we really consider.
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This is happening everywhere, and in the end the FAMILY has to work out what suits them and how they can make it work TOGETHER.
I was/am a teacher but found the amount of time that I spent on work at home cut into my family life and it was just too hard, my marriage and family was suffering so I gave up to be a stay at home mum. This has worked for us and I don’t regret my decision to stall my career or do I feel like a wasted 5 years at uni.
My husband is an engineer for a mining company and he works long hours every day and most weekends. Most nights he only sees our children to kiss them goodnight. This isn’t just for his career it allows one of us to be at home with the children at all times. However when he is home we make it quality family time and I don’t expect him to do a thing. I really am a 50′s housewife……but I wouldn’t change a thing.
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I am a lawyer who works full time, and has 2 kids in primary school . It is bloody hard to juggle it all, and I spend less time with my kids than I would like. In fact, if I didn’t have a (soon to be ex) husband who did the school runs, then it would be pretty much imposible for me to be working full time in my job.
I leave by 7.30 in the morning, and usually don’t get home until 7.30 at night (and often work at least a few hours on the weekend and in the evening from home). If I tried to work less than that, my career would stall (or go backwards). Because I am getting divorced, I cannot financially afford for my career not to progress, or to work part time.
It’s no coincidence that the vast majority of partners at my firm have stay at home wives!
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So that I won’t be labelled sexist…..I’ll make this comment about both genders.
I’m watching how you run your council, your state and your country. I’m shaking my head in disgust. How could I trust you to raise a child ? What type of person would mini-me (insert name here) turn out to be when you, the parent, have shown that you have no scruples and are generally lacking in morals and honesty ?
After all, our children are the sum of us.
Now looking at the issue as someone who would dearly love to have a child or two, it is said that many of the problems facing society are the results of overpopulation. It is said that global warming is man made, therefore one would have to believe that the more men made….the lesser chances of stemming the problem. It is said that food is becoming scarce. The more mouths to feed……the scarcer the supply becomes. It may be that the child that you give birth to in this hour, this day and this week will personally experience famine in their lifetime. That certainly concerns me.
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I agree with the people who have said this should not be considered a woman’s issue. It *should* be an issue for all parents, or anyone who wants to be a parent. Its also not just about politicians, but business and public service leaders as well.
I understand the “you can have it all, but not all at once” maxim, and I agree that it seems to be the reality at the moment. But in the bigger picture this means that the “leadership” is often not representative of the diversity and talent within the community.
The argument seems to go that you can’t do “both” because of the huge demands of these leadership roles – very long hours, travel, and being effectively on call for the short time you are not actually *at* work. Why can’t we occasionally challenge this culture? Ask, is it really *really* necessary that the wheels of commerce and government turn at such a relentless pace 24 hours a day? Will the sky fall in if everything slows down a little bit? Or would we perhaps find that society overall is better off when the best and brightest talent get some down time, and are able to continue their contribution throughout different stages of their lives?
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Pie in the sky.
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*shrugs* Quite possibly.
Very definitely if we never talk about it.
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True. But personally I don’t see how people in many leadership roles can compromise. They do it or they don’t. I for one want the doctor who is saving my life to do the 17 hour operation (instead of the 8 hour one so he/she can get home to the family and have some down time). The truth is, some professions require everything of a person, a compromise won’t do.
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Yeah, OK. And by the same token, I would not want the doctor working on me to have been doing 17 hr operations three times a week for the last month.
And there are many many other workplaces where human well-being doesn’t really require the extraordinary demands placed on employees.
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Your theory is a nice one – but some things need to turn over no matter who needs a break.
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“If you’re a leader, you have a choice. Being there for your kids, or being there for your job. But you can’t have it both ways. Not now, not tomorrow.”
Except if you’re a man.
A man can not only become a leader; a man can ALSO have it all domestically, usually for FREE.
Our system of work is designed for men with stay-at-home housewives who manage their home lives, and don’t get paid for it. It rarely works the other way because men generally don’t pull their weight at home, and if they do it’s a fraction of the amount of work women do (when they get home from full-time jobs).
I’ve always said all full-time working women/mums could do with a ‘housewife’ too.
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Exactly. Women could parent and politic with support from their spouse. Just isn’t the norm.
Seems like a good time to have another read of this:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-08/behind-every-successful-woman-theres-a-wife/2664866
Anabelle Crabb says it all for me.
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Ha Ha, brilliant article, Mary Christmas.
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My husband works 5 days, I work 4 (we overlap on three days). If he wasn’t hugely participating in the cooking, washing, homework supervision, lunch making, etc etc, there’s no way it woud work. He turned down a promotion last year because it would have meant more hours, plus weekend work, and as a family it didnt suit us.
Families can make the system work for them, it just means both being prepared to be part of the solution.
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Completely agree with the sentiment expressed that it is hugely difficult (maybe even impossible) to commit 100% as a parent and work full-time. Last week I tendered my resignation; working full-time as a mother of a 3 year old and 1 year old with a husband who was often away for work was too difficult. To fit everything into my day I just kept cutting into my sleep – it was not sustainable long term. My employer didn’t want to accept my resignation and we negotiated a 3 day working week. So lucky (and appreciative) this was an option which will allow me to spend more time with my children whilst still earning an income and maintaining my professional skills.
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I want your boss! You are lucky that you were able to negotiate but they’re also lucky to have you. Too many companies lose outstanding skills through inflexibility. The world is littered (and probably overpopulated) with highly skilled women that can’t find part-time work that challenges them. It’s great that you’ve found a solution that works:)
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Your boss sounds great, but you also sound like the sort of worker who was valuable to them, so why was it necessary to resign, rather than negotiate the part time option from the outset?
Not having a go at you personally, but it seems sad that too many women are seeing this situation as an ‘all or nothing’ issue, rather than exploring ways to compromise so that they don’t drop out of the work force completely, which makes it harder down the track if they want/need to go back.
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Hmm, I question the bit where the writer says leaders should be ‘consumed’ by their jobs. I don’t think that’s a realistic expectation of anyone, let alone someone with a young family, and it should be challenged. Perhaps that lack of realism is why we’re inevitably disappointed by the leaders we do have – who can make sensible decisions when they’re so immersed in that world they’ve lost perspective?
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I have had all three of my children while being a Councillor on my local council for the last 8 years, but it’s a smaller regional council which does not require a full time workload most of the time. To be honest, I have participated more actively in my council duties and meeting attendance than a lot of the middle-aged men who are my colleague councillors. This year I intend to run for mayor as I believe all communities need better representation from people who are in the “young working families” phase of life, rather than being told what we want and need by older politicians!
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abbt won the lib ballott because he denied a vote to a trnbl supporter who was ill
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Unfortunately that ain’t true.
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really
do tell
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Sorry, but I don’t believe your comment.
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It’s a matter of public record – Victorian MP Fran Bailey was sick and couldn’t get to the vote: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/liberal-leadership-ballot-decided-by-single-vote-after-victorian-mp-fran-bailey-failed-to-travel/story-e6frf7jo-1225805722739
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You could only do it if you had a stay at home or part time working partner. Two of you doing the hours wouldn’t cope.
By the way this should not be framed as a women’s issue. This is a family issue.
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In theory it is a family issue but in practice it is for the vast majority, an issue for women.
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All of the female execs where I worked had this arrangements with their partners – they worked at home part time, were house hubby or had shift work or they had very very good parents or inlaws. I didn’t hear many guys wanting to work part time in a corporate job for fear of being emasculated.
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Some women are better at juggling than others, some people sleep more than others some thrive on stress more than others.
To say you CAN’T really gets my goat. Not everyone can be a good working Mum but there are some women who thrive on it and are absolutely amazing at it. There are thousands of women who successfully work, mother and lead all at the same time. I’m sure it is not easy but to say you can’t is like saying man can never walk on the moon!!!
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Great point happy face. Like anything in life there are some people who just bitch and moan about things and others who just get on with it. I’ve faced some really massive and incredibly sad and tough challenges in my life that I have just learnt to “deal with”. People are always amazed at how positive and happy I am but it’s because I choose to focus on how I am lucky and the good things in my life. There have been some very low points and extremely sad times but i don’t make it all about them. I am due to have our first baby in a few weeks and I plan to be a working mum after 6 months and believe I will be able to. it will be hard I know that but so worth it.
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I am about to run for local council and my 3 daughters, especially my still at home 3 yr old will be right nxt to me at all times. I don’t agree that we have to choose one or the other, I believe communities want young women in power and having their kids along for the ride makes them all the more attractive x
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I would argue that communities do not want young women in power who have a 3 year old tagging along. How on earth can you do a decent job of anything with a young child by your side, that is in itself a full-time job?
Well, good luck anyway, I’ll eat my words if you succeed at it!
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Lots of councillors have other “interests” that take up their time and mental energy, sometimes to the great detriment of their community. Having a small child or not is no indication of whether someone can or will do a good job. And I would argue that a council with no-one but middle-aged white businessman (as an hypothetical example) is not very representative. Diversity is good – go your hardest Anonymous!
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But having a small child ‘right next to me at all times’ is a grave indication of how well someone can do a job – depending on how literally you want to take it.
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A small child is a bit more demanding than, say, a passion for stamp collecting.
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‘I would argue that communities do not want young women in power’
This seems to be the crux of the problem…
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If only it were easy to be a political leader and a family person…then we could have Joe Hockey fronting the Liberal Party
Darn that man and wanting to be there for his wife and young children (at least, that is rumoured to be why he had no interest in leading the party).
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Oh right, he had no interest in leading the party? Is that why he ran in the ballot for the leadership when Abbott was elected?
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You’re right, he did run for the leadership in the past. I’m talking about now, or rather, after Abbott failed to lead the party to an election win and then encountered a few controversies after that.
As people began to question the desirability of Abbott continuing as party leader, there were also more murmurs about whether or not Hockey would challenge Abbott’s leadership again because there seemed to be a growing public preference for Hockey as a replacement. It was, as I said, rumoured that now he is choosing to focus more on family, less on party leadership.
Perhaps I should have said, “has no interest at this point in time, where he has in the past and probably will again in the future. Hopefully sooner rather than later”.
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He has no chance under Abbott. Abbot thinks he is a moron. I’ve never heard of such a mute as a Shadow Treasurer.
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His wife earns 20 times his salary…he has a good life!
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He ran to be leader in the same ballot where Abbott was elected – he clearly has an interest in being elected leader.
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And two nannies, a gardener and a cleaner….
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It’s really sad, but it makes sense to me.
I was lucky enough to have a full-time mother, and I wonder what would be different if she had to work, or if it was only my hard-working dad who looked after me.
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I really can’t comment on the ins and outs of working in politics, but I have made an observation about the workplace, and that is that the workplace, in general, is the way it was 50 years ago still, i.e. one parent stays at home and the other comes into an office for as long as they need to, be it 9-5 (or these days 7:30-5:30, or longer!).
Technology has both helped and hindered that to a degree, and there are many government roles and roles within large corporations like banks or insurers who are stepping away from the traditional model of working in an office, but the rest of us are still there.
I’m very fortunate in an area of law that allows for flexibility should I need it, but at the same time, it’s not as as high powered, stressful or challenging as what I did beforehand and what Mr W does now.
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Being a working mother is a joke. Everytime I drop my daughter at daycare myself and the other mothers are frazzled in the morning and in too much of a hurry to say goodbye properly to their kids. Every night, we walk around the centre like the sleep deprived zombies we have turned into. There are days it is a living nightmare – and I don’t even have a high profile job. As a working mother you can not give 100% to both your job and your kids, so both miss out, and you feel guilty about both. Add to this the enormous cost of childcare fees and it is ridiculous. The only working mothers I know who are happy at all with their situation either work very part time (but are frustrated that their career is on stalling as a consequence) OR have a partner who works part time and keeps the house and kids going. Everyone else is UNHAPPY.
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Youve described me 6 months ago. I quit my job and now keep my family balanced by stayingat home. They’re thriving, I’m happy. I might never renter my highly paid professional career, but it was either sit another 5 yrs trying to have it all and being miserable or toss it in and become a different me. We’re lucky in that our family income can manage this, others aren’t so fortunate, but best decision we’ve made as a family for sure.
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Every working mother I know suffers this guilt! The daycare drop offs are a form of daily torture, and the evening rush a blur of dinner, bath and bed before waking to do it all again… Not for me at all! Throw in the need to work evenings as well and I can only guess at the stress and guilt involved for politicians. I am a bit old school in my thinking, but I wonder why people want to ‘have it all’ when it seems to mean a life of stress, guilt and rush.
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Wow! That has made me teary. Thank you for your honesty. I had no idea.
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Not everyone is unhappy. My husband and I both work full time and have two primary school kids (have both worked full time since the youngest was 1 though) and we are happy. He drops them off in the morning, I pick them up at a reasonable time from after school care. We like our jobs and our income and the kids are great kids (teachers agree – not just our opinion!).
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I’m hugely impressed with Kristina Keneally in the time since she hasn’t been NSW premier.
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me too… I think it may have been the media coverage influencing my views… once I saw her speak without the editing at some events, I was so impressed.
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I’m not a parent, so I can’t really comment with any expertise on what it takes to raise a child. But speaking as someone who struggles to fit everything in, as it is, and having worked in a Minister’s office … I don’t know how ANYONE does that job and maintains their sense of stable mind.
Male or female, you’d need a hell of an understanding partner left at home and even then your kid would barely see you. Being the Premier of PM is that times 10 again.
Cass is right in that politics is slightly different to any other hardcore job in the sense that it means everything to the person doing it. The job, the ideology, the electorate (if they’re good) and it sucks up every ounce of time.
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My partner works a job in IT where he is flown all over the world at a moment’s notice. He deals with living in a different hotel every week and getting to see me only on his jet-lagged weekends. I deal with being alone, having to juggle household upkeep, the dogs, family commitments (I babysit our nieces twice a week) by myself while being a full-time PhD student and working three days a week.
It’s hard for everybody to juggle their lives if they have demanding jobs, kids or not. My partner’s job is incredibly demanding – my study/work load means I’m home a lot to help deal with the household stuff that he’s not around to do. It doesn’t mean that we don’t both work incredibly hard and get very stressed at times… we just make it work, like everyone does.
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I don’t think its just leader in the political sense that are in this basket. I stepped out of a upper management role six months after returing from maternity leave. I had been working part-time, and managing a house with 3 small children. Even if we had been willing to have both parents full time the childcare costs would have been prohibitive – easily close to $1300 per week. This made no sense, even if I would make more than this after tax. We decided that one of us needed to be home part-time at least and as the twins were still breastfed it seemed better that I would be home (I might mention that they were 18 months, not tiny babies!) In my 20s I thought women with enlightened partners could have it all – now I can’t see this. The only female leaders in my organisation are either childless or children have left home. And all my highly educated friends with masters and PhD in similar positions to me, work part-time.
And all this without the stigma issues about working for women at all with children…….
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I work in politics. Cassandra’s right. No leader – male or female – should be so if they have a baby at home. You simply couldn’t do the job properly, and that isn’t fair to your baby, your partner, or to the electorate.
As others have said, you can have it all – just not at the same time.
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I wrote about this issue a few months ago as a female executive (with 2 children under 5) managing a team of women in their late 20′s/early 30′s juggling this act. I am not sure there is ever a perfect balance – but certainly there are few key things to make it easier….my post Women in Leadership – can we have it all? http://www.nicoleunderwood.com.au/?p=606
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Have it all? Pfft! Who would even want it all?
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Mia is a leader and she has children.
Depends what kind of leader you want to be.
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we can’t all be like Mia!
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Whilst Mia is a brilliant leader, I’d hazard a guess that she receives help such as a nanny, cleaner and perhaps is able to outsource other home responsibilities. She may be superwoman with all that she has accomplished but she is still a mere mortal so could not possibly do everything! Mia can you clarify?
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I think Madeleine Albright ( the first twoman to be the Secretary of State in the USA), said it best, you can have it all not just at the same time. This highly talented woman had three daughters and a less high profile career when they were young and then later took her career up a notch. To me this seems a sensible approach. We are all living longer and our careers can last for much longer than they used to. I for one would not want to have a high profile career like a premiership and have a baby, but I wouldn”t judge others if they did.
It is interesting to note that Lara Giddings predecessor, David Bartlett left the job because it took him away from his young family, and he rarely saw his kids. Another female minister in Tas parliament Paula Weidt left the job in part because of the toll the job was having on her family life. Poltics appears to be a very unhealthy lifestyle both physically and emotionally.
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I have no problem about people highlighting the enormous pressure political leadership (or business leadership, for that matter) puts on a family.
My question is, why is this considered a problem for women (ie mothers) so much more than for men (ie fathers). Surely it’s time for men to face up to their responsibility as parents; than we might not have such unrealistic expectations on our leaders, no matter what their gender.
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I would imagine in the early years it makes a difference if a mother chooses to breastfeed.
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You are right. If the mother decides to work long hours and the father is stay at home dad it should be manageable. It may not be ideal, working 70 hours a week you won’t see your kids much, but doable.
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Thank goodness someone raises this point! I thought that the whole time I was reading. Apart from the act of breast-feeding I can’t see one single reason why this applies to females more than males. Can we stop putting all the pressure on women and perhaps allow people to make decisions for their own family?
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Yes!
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I was so interested – and confused – when Natasha Stott Despoja quit federal politics for family reasons – she’d just had her second son.
At the time, she said “I don’t want women to think for a moment this means you can’t have family and be a politician”
But what else did it mean? There are so few women in cabinet or shadow cambinet with small kids – Tania Plibersek is the only one I can think for. And for good reason!
When it comes to talking about ‘having it all’ I thnk it comes down to your defninition of “all’.
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Whats the difference between being a politician or on company board, both require more than a 9 – 3 commitment. This whole idea that gender ratios in parliment and boards demonstrate some grand sexist conspiracy is a furphy. Women are lucky to have greater work family choice than men, but to then also expect the same work place statistics as men for the much lower proportion of women that are willing to sacrifice for career is a joke.
To make a real difference, we need, at the same time, to cut men some slack and offer them greater work flexibility. This should be the biggest focus, but as it is a male issue, it gets no oxygen at all.
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I completely agree, Mia…sometimes, when you have kids, you just need to redefine what “all” means.
I was the quintessential workaholic career woman pre-kids and really struggled with a loss of identity when I went on mat leave. But I’ve found a way to combine doing what I love to do in a flexible way that lets me devote time and energy to both my career and my beautiful family.
And along the way, I’ve come to love the balance that comes with it being about more than me…I love being involved in my kids’ schools, I love being able to put some priority on my health and fitness, I love spending time just being a mum.
I may not be a Senior Exec by the time I’m 40 (the pre-kids goal I was well on the way to achieving) but I love what I do and feel I’m making a real difference to my community through my work and http://www.hercanberra.com.au. And I’m sure as hell not getting paid what I was pre-kids, but I feel rich in a lot of other ways…
It may not be the ‘all’ I envisaged five or so years ago, but it feels pretty damn complete to me right now!
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NSD had a second child, a daughter.
Maybe what she meant with that comment was that you can have a family and be in politics, but not a family with a newborn, a 3-ish year old and a busy working dad as well?
Remember that politics was pretty toxic around the time she left and her party was imploding, so maybe she just didn’t want to be there anymore, family or no family.
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I think maybe she meant you CAN, just that she chose differently.
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I think that Natasha Stott Despoja leaving fed politics for family reasons would probably have been one of the most difficult and courageous decisions she has made. I admit that, when I heard the news, I was a little disappointed until I thought about it and realised that I respected and admired her choice. Many people can be politicians, but only one person can be her children’s mother. In time, she’ll be back.
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I don’t think it’s so much that you CAN’T have children and have a high profile career. I think many women simply decide they want to spend more time with their children once they have them. So they leave high profile jobs in order to do that.
I left a television media job which I LOVED after having my first bub – I simply wouldn’t have been able to spend the time with him that I wanted to…
Despite loving my job and being beyond ambitious before I had children, I had to make a choice. I now combine freelance writing (writing being my first journalism love) with full-time motherhood.
I miss my job, but I’d have missed my kids more.
There’s no right or wrong or rules when it comes to combining work and motherhood. It’s simply a matter of priorities and choices for each individual.
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This is me too. I also gave up a career to be at home with my kids. And I also freelance. I was ambitious too, but I wanted to give my kids the kind of homelife I had, especially in those preschool years.
On the few occasions I’ve had to be out of the house and the kids have had to be in kindy at a certain time, it has been busy and stressful. Our mornings are calm and peaceful. We are not frantic and busy.
I am of the Madeleine Albright school. And why on earth would I want to have it all right now?
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I think she earned the respect of many women that day. Before I think she made other mothers feel inadequate, if she could manage motherhood with her demanding political career and still cope why were so many others struggling. It takes a lot of courage to put your hand upand admit its not working.
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A warts and all ‘day in the life’ article on Tania Plibersek would be very interesting – Mia?. We may all need a cuppa and a lie down after reading it though
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There’s two, Penny Wong just joined that club
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I agree. I mean honestly, what would happen if say, a Premier was pregnant and had to go on bed rest for 4 months? She couldn’t do her job, but unlike other jobs she couldn’t just find a temp to fill in either. And what about maternity leave? A leader can’t just take months off and then come back, but I can just imagine the uproar from other women if she went back to work two weeks after the birth.
For me the article wasn’t about having young kids (which is possible but tough whether you are a male or female politician), but about the later stages of pregnancy and the months following the birth. Logistically, I don’t see how it’s feasible for a woman to have a baby whilst holding a political office, unless voters are happy to accept the person they voted for being replaced for at least a month or two.
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Sorry, should clarify. I know women have had babies whilst having a political career, but when I say I don’t think it’s feasible I’m referring to more high powered positions such as PM, Premier, opposition leader, anyone in cabinet etc. These people can’t just take time out and then come back.
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Anyone can have medical problems that require bed rest/time off. Surely the deputy would step in and become acting premier/PM etc as is done when they are travelling?
If Kevin Rudd had of still been PM when he had his heart op. recently we wouldn’t expect him to resign just so he could have the month off to recover (or however long was required..)
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Hear, hear Ella89.
What if a male premier say, had a heart attack and a temp couldn’t take over?? Obviously the Deputy Premier would step up and do the job until the Premier recovered. Most women don’t require four months of bed rest while pregnant. And men are more likely to have heart attacks – maybe we shouldn’t let men be leaders…
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If a male politician had a heart attack, unless it was mild and they were expected to recover very quickly, they would generally resign (or be forced to resign, whether by colleagues or family/doctors). Politics really doesn’t allow for a person in a high powered position to take months and months off then come back to the same position.
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Understandable but most pregnancies don’t result in the mother medically needing 4 months off work- if mothers (in various high powered positions, not just politics) are willing to give it a go then why should we let them try and do our best to support them?
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Politicians often have to resign because of temporary health issues. In Kevin Rudd’s case, he was able to get back to work within weeks. Any longer than that and it starts to become an issue. Theoretically a female politician could work up until the birth of her child then return to work a few weeks later, but even if she was up to it, she would get a lot of heat from other women.
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I think the underlying issue here is that a male health issue is simply that and it only impacts upon them. A female politician having a baby who may become sick will have a whole lot more going on and then a new baby to take home and care for. And while recovering be expected to race back to a ridiculous work schedule when she has a baby with needs as well.
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“May become sick” – there’s the key word. Pregnancy’s not a disease. Not that many women develop complications. And men get sick too.
Also, who says she has a new baby to care for? Maybe her husband’s at home caring for the new baby.
The federal Health Minister Tanya Plibersek was pregnant during the 2010 election – doesn’t seem to have either (a) stopped her campaigning or (b) stopped her being a Minister.
Anna Burke, the Member for Chisolm, had both her kids while a member of parliament – she had three weeks off with the first, six with the second.
It may not be your choice – that doesn’t mean women can’t – or should be discouraged from leadership positions.
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You perfectly articulated what I was trying to say!
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Didnt say they cant do it because obviously they are doing it. But I’m just questioning, at what cost to themselves and their children. Unless their kids stay in Canberra with them they really wouldnt see much of them when parliament is sitting. And even then with the hours they work it still couldnt be much. They must have incredible support networks around them to make it work. And even with an army of helpers most women simply dont want to rush back to fulltime work when their baby is only a few weeks old.
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This is a really, really good point. I think it is very important to note just what it really takes to look after a baby- too many of my male friends drop far too many comments about ‘doing nothing’ at home with the baby.
Do we need our leaders to be mothers/fathers? Does it make a better leader?
It broke my heart the day Natasha Stott Despoja left politics to look after her kids. I still hope she will be our PM one day.
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I often used to wonder about Kristina Keneally when she was in office. How on earth did she do it? How much did she actually see her kids and if they complained. I take my hat off to her because workload alone seemed exhausting and then she had to find the time and energy to be with her kids and run her home life. I think, assuming there was a supportive partner and/or nanny on the scene and you’re not breastfeeding, a baby would be easier to manage than older kids. Babies just do what you want them to do without complaint. Older kids will let you know if they think you’re giving them a raw deal
There are some female politicians at the moment with young children and I get a headache just thinking about the ages of their kids, the hours they seem to work and how on earth they actually get to be with their kids. Knowing some families with both parents with demanding careers there are some kids who get raw deals and plenty whose parents work hard to make sure their kids get the best of them. You cant have it all but the complaints about women carrying more of the load than their male parnters is ridiculous. Women are the ones who carry the baby, give birth and endure the physical changes. And most women want to be the one taking responsibility for their children.
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I believe her husband worked part time.
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Katy Gallagher tells some interesting stories about being in politics pregnant and then with a new baby. Like having her mum at home until 5am because she was still sitting. She changed the rules when she became Chief Minister and says it is still hard but at least they stop sitting at 6pm each day…
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See I have such a problem with the fact that she changed the rules when she became Chief Minister – it didn’t suit her so she thought it was fine to change everything aaround to suit her needs?
It’s politics, it’s NOT a 9 to 5 job, they know this before getting into the industru, don’t like it? Won’t suit your life, then find another industry to work in!
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What? She changed a rule that wouldn’t suit ANY working mother – good for her for changing something that removes one of the many barriers to mothers becoming involved in politics.
Has it never occured to you that the whole system – with things like really long hours – was set up to suit men who had someone at home looking after the house and kids, and that actually, that’s fundamentally something that excludes women.
It doesn’t *have* to be set up like that – so of course it should change so that more people can have a go.
She wasn’t just changing everything around to suit her needs, she was changing a fundamentally unfair system.
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But surely, changing the sitting time to finish at six would be of benefit to all, not just women? Then fathers would be able to spend more time with their families too…
Yes, politics is more than a 9to5 job, no-one disputes that, but maybe some changes would make it more appealing and we might end up with better politicians.
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No one seems to ask the most fundamental questions. Why have children if you are not going to spend any time with them? Why have children it someone else is going to raise them? It seems as though some people think of children as an accessory or a consumer item.
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‘Having it all’ is a silly phrase in my opinion. It perpetuates a myth and guilt. Nobody has it all, at the same time, and has their act together that I know. There are only so many hours in a day after. But then guilt seems mandatory in today’s society.