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Alice Callahan 380x285 On Parenting, Science, and Trust – and Choosing to Vaccinate

Alice Callahan and her baby daughter. Photo credit: Lori Cole

Having a PhD in science makes my job as a mother easier, but maybe not in the ways that you might expect.

My PhD is in Nutrition, so you would think that getting my kid to eat well would come easy for me. Unfortunately, that has not been the case.

I’ve logged more than two years of postdoc research on fetal programming, which is basically how the uterine environment affects outcomes in babies. You might think that this has helped me to do everything right during my pregnancy. Instead, I think it just led to more worry about all of the ways I might be damaging my unborn child. Stress! Sugar! BPA! Lab chemical exposure! OMG! More stress!

Sure, I have had access to more scientific information than the average mother. Sometimes this is helpful.  But sometimes it is not.  For instance, knowing how to do a literature search to answer my parenting questions often leads to further sleep deprivation, especially since slogging through Pubmed hits leads me to come out on the other side with more confusion.  Sometimes my drive to find scientific answers for my parenting questions just distracts me from my instinct – not that my maternal instinct is all that amazing, but I do know my baby better than anyone else in the world.

So how does being a scientist make parenting easier for me? As a scientist mother, I trust other scientists. And I trust doctors.  I even trust government agencies, which bring together the best scientists and doctors in a field to review the research and make recommendations for the good of public health.

I trust scientists and doctors because I have worked side-by-side with them for a decade, and I know that they are not only knowledgeable, but by and large, they are overwhelmingly good people. At some point, you have to trust someone. For me, those “someones” are scientists and doctors.

I trust scientists because I know that the vast majority of them are just underpaid nerds who are really passionate about what they do. They are driven by the desire to find the truth about a question and work, day in and day out, in that pursuit.  In addition, I know that scientists don’t always agree, so when there is a general consensus among the majority of scientists about something, such as vaccine safety or global warming, I feel confident with the majority conclusion. Contrary to many claims on the Internet, scientists are not in bed with Big Pharma, conspiring make millions at the expense of your child’s health. They are in bed with their husbands and wives, probably chatting about their latest failed cell culture experiment.

I also trust science because I understand the peer review process all too well. Although it has its flaws, and as maddening as it is when I am the one being reviewed, I have confidence that the peer review process is highly effective at weeding out the kooks and pseudoscientists and the conflicts of interest. (Unfortunately, there are a few kooky psuedoscientists out there with serious conflicts of interest, and it just so happens that one of them managed to publish fraudulent research linking the MMR vaccine and autism. Many studies have since shown that such a link does not exist, but it took 12 years for Andrew Wakefield’s Lancet paper to be retracted. How many dollars have been spent and how many people made sick or worse in the continuing fallout and confusion about this public health scare? When the peer review system fails, it can be truly devastating.)

I trust doctors because I know that most of them are, first and foremost, humanitarians at heart, especially those that have chosen to work in primary care. I know how hard doctors work to become competent in the vast ocean of information about pathologies of the human body. I know how seriously they take their responsibility of our health. I especially trust pediatricians. They have chosen one of the lowest-paid specialties simply because they love working with kids. I know that every pediatrician, at some point during her training or career, has likely cared for a child who was dying of a disease that could have been prevented by vaccination, and that memory haunts her as she faces parents afraid of vaccinating their children. Doctors are not conspiring against us. They want to help us make the best choices for our children, more than anything in the world.

Because I trust scientists and doctors, I didn’t question the CDC’s vaccination schedule. I didn’t pore over vaccine research or agonize about the decision to vaccinate my child. Instead, I trusted that the committees of experts at the CDC and AAP carefully make the best recommendations possible based on the data available. Maybe that is naïve. Maybe I am a lazy mother for not trying to become a vaccine expert before I allowed those first needles to enter my daughter’s thigh. Or maybe not.

What would be naïve is for me to think that I could become an expert on vaccinations.  It would be naïve for me to think that I could understand the vaccine field better than the committees of scientists and doctors who have made this their life’s work. I know how much work it took me to become an expert on one or two corners of nutrition and fetal physiology. It took thousands of hours of reading textbooks and journal articles, sitting in lectures, attending conferences, and struggling at the lab bench before I started to feel even a little bit comfortable calling myself an expert in any field. So I think it is naïve for a parent to think that she can become an expert on vaccines by spending some time on the Internet reading questionable sources, almost all of which have some agenda. I accept that I can’t know everything, and I have enough faith in humanity that I trust others who know more than me.

It is not that I don’t question scientists and doctors. I do. For example, I recognize that government agencies and medical organizations often have a lag time for adopting the latest science into their recommendations. I recognize that tradition, culture, politics, and economics all influence those recommendations, and they are not without fault. I certainly question my doctors because I know they are each fallible human beings and they can’t know everything.

For example, I brought a stack of journal articles to my OB to convince her to delay cord clamping at my delivery. I did so much research on infant iron nutrition and came to my daughter’s 9-month checkup with so many questions that my pediatrician looked me in the eye and said, “You’re worried enough for both of us about BabyC’s iron.” Although I question my doctors, I also trust that they are adept at discerning fake science from real science. If I bring my doctor the sources I am using to inform my questions or concerns, she should be able to judge whether or not they are trustworthy and have a real discussion with me about factors that I may not have considered.

In truth, I do follow the vaccine debate closely, but not because I wonder if I am doing the right thing by vaccinating my child. I follow the vaccine debate out of interest for how misinformation can explode in a way that creates a public health crisis. I find myself increasingly concerned about the low rate of vaccination in my own community. I worry for the newborns in our town who have not yet had a chance to be vaccinated and for the individuals who cannot be vaccinated due to health conditions. I am starting to feel like I have a responsibility to share accurate information with mothers and fathers struggling with the decision of whether or not to vaccinate, because misinformation is doing real harm.

It is good to question our parenting decisions and in doing so, become more educated about them. However, as a scientist, I’m happy to defer to other scientists about some of the biggest parenting decisions I have faced. I am grateful for their decades of research forming the foundation of our understanding of child health and for the good-hearted doctors who care for my family. They have made my job as a mother a lot easier. I can spend less time worrying and more time playing with my daughter and soaking up the time with her as she grows up way too fast.

Thanks, science, for making it easier to be a mom.

Alice Callahan is a research scientist turned stay-at-home mom. She writes about the science of parenting, as well as her adventures in mothering, at Science of Mom.  You can also find her on Twitter as @scienceofmom and on Facebook.

This article was originally published on Mother Geek and has been republished with full permission.

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199 Comments so far

  1. Mommymia

    As a scientist, you should know that their isn’t research out their that satisfies everyone. There is none done on the amount of vaccines on the CDC schedule. There is none testing aluminum in babies. I can go on . I read pubmed for fun. I don’t trust pharm companies for they have not given me reason to and I find myself to be quite reasonable.

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  2. Liz

    I’m dabbing in a science-based discipline and what I do know is that we only know, what we’ve currently found… its a never ending cycle, things change, theories once lauded as being the ‘one’ are dis-proven or evidence against is found and so forth.

    I’m totally fine with other people vaccinating their kids if that’s their choice. But please don’t berate those who don’t. It’s their choice to not vaccinate their children and as we live in a democracy, so should it be.

    Great article tho – always good to get this topic out for a debate.

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  3. KlaraR

    I really like this article – Alice articulates what I have had trouble saying. I’m an obstetrician, and get up every single day hoping to do the best by my patients. I genuinely believe I influence lives for the better, and always hope to do it in a way that is acceptable for mother and baby. I have spent 15 years of my life dedicated to learning everything there is to know about my craft, honing my knowledge and skills. Despite this I often meet new people who are suspicious of my motives and accuse me of “birth-raping” women. It really upsets me. Not all members of any profession mean well, but most of my colleagues do… and we’ve spent our lives learning so we can advise you appropriately.

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  4. Delia

    Last year at 34 I managed to get chicken pox. At the time my daughter was 9 months old and I was still breast feeding. Within 48 hours my breast milk had dried up and I spent a very uncomfortable a week separated from her. Somehow she didn’t catch it from me even though I was feeding her right up until the spots appeared. Around the same time the young girlfriend of a family member died of Diphtheria. She was 20. Her parents chose not to vaccinate their children. It took 20 years for her to meet my husbands cousin (who had just returned from a stint working in PNG). It turns out he was the carrier. Just like my vaccinated niece with her single chicken pox spot everyone thought was an insect bite.

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  5. Alma

    My granddaughter is pregnant. Her frined showed her this.

    http://www.causes.com/causes/283271-iansvoice-org/about

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  6. BMSDC

    I have a doctorate in science and I am a practicing physician however me son is completely unvaccinated.

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    • Jane DJ

      Rubbish! A real scientist would explain why.

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      • BMSDC

        Lol. There is no denying my degree and that my 19 month old is not vaccinated. You can say and believe what you want but there are well educated individuals in the science field who do not vaccinate their children. I know plenty of them.

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        • Faybian

          Can you explain why then?
          I’ve actually vaccinated doctors and other health professionals children. Is the culture amongst health professionals in the US that different?

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        • Jane DJ

          Yes, pray, tell us the cognitive dissonance process that allows you to work and study from a scientific evidence- based mindset, and yet deny your children the protection derived from vaccines, which are developed from the very same evidence-based techniques.

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        • Daniel

          I’m a nuclear physicist who works part time as an international spy, a race car driver and an astronaut – you can believ me because I own a computer and make splling mistakes.

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  7. Jodie

    Hi Alice

    You may not be totally up to date with the latest research – Check out the Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry – find it on pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159 – The November 2011 edition includes a new study linking vaccines that include aluminium with Autism.

    I think the findings here point to a need for further study.

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  8. Indigo Banana

    Thanks Alice for writing this. Such a great article. I also work in public health so I understand the importance of vaccination. On the flip side I also have chronic illness and I am immune suppressed and therefore have to be more careful when it comes to communicable diseases. I was vaccinated as a kid, and have had the requisite boosters, but still I am in the high risk box when it comes to contracting these diseases. What the anti-vaxers don’t realise is that they not only put their own child at risk of contracting potentially fatal diseases but they also put other people at risk, whether they are vaccinated or not. I have an anti vaxer friend, also a health care professional (yes I am always dumbstruck by this) who looks down on me for even having the flu vax. Each year I have to explain that a simple cold knocks me flat for a month or more and the flu will probably kill me so I have no issue getting the yearly vaccine in the hope of preventing something which otherwise be devastating. The benefits far outweigh the risks when it comes vaccines and while they may not be suitable for everyone, people need to consider the overall impacts of vaccines within the community, not just the impact on themselves.

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  9. Mariana tabet

    Great article! I’ve got 2 kids, a great pediatrician and totally trust him. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to understand how it all works, because I do. But I realize he deeply understands what he is talking about!

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    • Sue

      Right, Mariana – “trust” doesn’t mean “blind trust”. Most people understand that no professional is infallible, but that most people know more about their area of specialisation than others do, and they generally act in people’s best interests. It doesn’t mean you sit like a jellyfish and passive accept everything – it means that you respect the provider’s motivations.

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  10. Mabol

    I have studied a great deal of science at university level and agree that there is a lot of admirable and highly talented people who have strong humanitarian ideals that work in research and medicine. I also know a lot of scientists personally. People who could make a great deal of money if self-interest was their motivator and they chose more lucrative disciplines. I also believe strongly in the scientific method and have a signifticant interest in the history and philosophy of science.

    However I feel that this article simplifies the depth and complexity of issues concerning corporate power and the funding of scientific research and the creation of scientific knowledge. I do not like how these issues are often posed as being the result of conspiracy theories of the uninformed. There are plenty of well respected scientists who are the loudest advocates of publicly funded science in which a great deal of more autonomy is given to scientists themselves because they know of the serious problems with the way that research is carried out. I could outline endless examples historically and currently where the interests of public health have been subverted to those of financial interests which has involved both private corporations and government bodies.

    My information always comes from within the scientific community and literature and highly reputable, respected media sources – I particularly disagree with people that claim that there do not exist significant issues with the ethics of big pharmaceutical companies, from the burying of negative research and distorting the published research in their favour, to supplying drugs to demographics which they haven’t been approved for, to lobbying government and threatening other industries to uphold their interests in the face of grave public health concerns and to using bullying tactics to profit from the horrendous suffering and poverty in developing countries.

    I wonder if some of the trust issues people have with science and scientists may be because they are aware of some of these realities without being sufficiently literate in the sciences to be able to separate out the issues and evidence for themselves- which negatively affects public health and environment even more because they begin to discount even that science where the research is solidly backed up by overwhelming evidence such as for vaccinnes and climate change.

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    • Geekery

      Of course it’s simplified, it’s an article not a thesis.

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      • Mabol

        I wasn’t expecting a thesis – I don’t believe that my points require one. They are more than adequately able to be addressed within an article.

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        • Geekery

          You didn’t make any points that needed to be addressed in order to create a better rounded article. You just presented your viewpoint and tried to make it sound well-informed with claims like ‘I know a lot of scientists personally’.

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          • Mabol

            Interesting that you have such a negative response to my comment, for points that were mirroring the original article. Why such a biased distinction?

            My comment that I *also* know a lot of scientists personally was a response to and agreement with Alice’s own statement and assessment painting them as human beings and the qualities that she sees in them.

            I stated my extensive background in studying science and in particular a very deep interest in how politics and other factors impinge on what is developed and marketed as scientific truth to the general public is based on a very deep personal interest that has resulted in a massive amount of hours I have put into researching and understanding this issue. I stated this also in response to Alice’s statement of the importance of deep and extensive studying and being informed (which I also agree with). (I also have formal academic qualifications from very well regarded universities.)

            It is true that I have simply stated my opinion without backing it up with the actual evidence here (As Alice has). Again it is interesting that you require me to be so thorough but have accused me of expecting the original article to be a thesis.
            Though fair point – I have just started a new job and my flatemate managed to have our internet disconnected so my response was quite a quick one.

            I would love to suggest you do some research on the background of Uranium Depleted Warheads in Iraq and Afghanistan and start from there if you are interested (this was what initiated my own interest many years ago).

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    • Sue

      Mabol, I take your point, but I think the essayist was focussing on a different point.

      I what I see is fear being created about the integrity of the science of medications and orthodox medicine, way out of proportion to the rest of modern life. For example, the anti-vaccinators bemoan the fact that pharmaceutical companies safety-test their own drugs. Well, of course they do – as do motor vehicle manufacturers, aeroplane manufacturers, food manufacturers, and most manufacturers of products in our daily life. Does each manufacturer have a vested interest in their product being approved for use? Of course they do! It is then up to the regulators to examine the evidence presented by the manufacturers that their product is both safe and effective.

      What concerns me is also the turn away from science-based health care, but towards more paternalistic so-called “alternative” therapies that are not science-based, do not publish the safety or efficacy tests of their therapies, and where the practitioner themselves sells the “remedy.” In orthodox medicine, there is at least arm’s-length between the prescriber, manufacturer and dispenser – not so in may “non-orthodox” practises.

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      • Mabol

        Hi Sue,

        I guess I believe the problem is a lot more serious than both the author and yourself – backed up by an extensive amount of solid evidence, research and reasoning (I unfortunately don’t have time to go into detail today) . I would argue that there are significant differences between other industries and those that relate to public health and food production.

        Therefore I believe that the majority of health research should be publicly funded and that scientists themselves should be given a great deal of autonomy over the general co-ordination of research and that there should be (separate) strict ethics committees overseeing the publication of research.

        And as I tried to suggest, I believe that there is some valid reasons that people are beginning to distrust some scientific authorities and organisations – with the distressing result that they distrust even when the scientific evidence is overwhelming and in the interests of public health and safety.

        I’m not sure how the author is focussing on a different point? She is advocating trusting science and medical authorites… I think the reasons *why* people distrust them need to be addressed, particularly as I am arguing the trust issues are not completely unfounded.

        I agree completely that some people are turning to disturbing alternatives. Mr Not-a-doctor I read on this site the other day who has annointed himself a doctor and is treating people with some bizarre warped and nonsensical quantum based psychological methodology is a good case in point – scary anyone can call themself a doctor and treat people without having any relevant qualifications – abuse scientific titles of authority for their own financial interest and promulgate a serious perversion of anything that even remotely resembles science.

        However I could present numerous cases of cultural knowledge that communities have developed over long periods of time that were first dismissed by the scientists and have then found to be evidence based – I think it is unfair to dismiss completely the wisdom of some ‘alternative’ based therapy and wisdom and people’s interest in them. I agree more funding should be put into investigating the claims.

        It might be a a good idea for MM to do a post on alternative therapies some time – I certainly would be interested in reading the comments and discussion.

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        • Kris2040

          I’m reasonably active in anti-anti-vax groups, and very few people are dismissive of traditional knowledge and medicines. I’ve rarely seen anyone dismiss every traditional therapy out of hand. Plenty of us use traditional therapies. Saying that vocal anti-anti-vaxers dismiss traditional wisdom completely is a bit of a strawman frankly.

          Like the strawman that those on the anti-anti-vax side don’t question or even better are shills for big pharma. Again, I’ve never seen anyone say that they should be trusted 100% of the time about everything. As you say, people are anti and just out and out denying overwhelming evidence on the effectiveness and more importantly, safety of vaccines and vaccination.

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        • Sue

          Mabol, I don’t disagree that there are vested interests in pharmaceutical manufacturing. What may not be evident, though, is the attitude of scrutiny that goes into the medical literature. As a prescriber myself, but employed in a public organisation, my choice of pharmaceuticals is determined by factors such as the institutional drug committee, contract prices, and evidence of efficacy. This situation doesn’t apply to every prescriber by all means, but it does to many. “Journal clubs” are also vehicles for clinicians to read the literature deeply, analyse methodology, and evaluate conclusions.

          Of course the system isn’t perfect, but not do I think it is flawed as some imagine (and I say this from direct involvement). Despite what many people think, much of the questioning of drug efficacy and marketing comes from within the medical profession.

          And in response to your comments about “alternative” therapies, I would have to say that, when a particular therapy is shown to be effective and safe, it becomes “therapy”. Being different isn’t enough, you also have to be right. Case in point – the doctors who discovered H Pylori as the infective cause of peptic ulcer disease. Crazy thought? But they did the studies and produced the evidence and voila’ – standard therapy.

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        • Andy

          Mabol,

          You do a lot of suggesting and implying and referencing knowledge that you have but don’t have time to tell us about – to the point where it’s starting to look like a conspiracy theory.

          As for alternative medicine, homeopathy, acupuncture and a whole bunch of others have been tested, and tested, and tested. They keep failing. At what point are they no longer the products of wisdom?

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          • Mabol

            Andy – I will come back and answer your points soon. (Now that I have the internet re-connected and will have some spare time)

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      • Mabol

        Sue,
        I did not dispute that much questioning of conflict of interests within the pharmaceutical industry from comes from within the scientific community (as I have already clearly stated in my first post)

        Neither do I believe that most medical professionals have anything other than the best of interests at heart nor that they should be expected to be infallible. I am also not advocating that people “not have blind trust.”

        Helicobactor pylori is actually an interesting case ( I have been following loosely for quite some years)- at the level of basic science this topic is still extremely controversial. This bacteria has an an exceptionally long shared evolutionary history with the human species and was possibly present in the gut of people before they migrated from Africa.

        Given that the ‘infection’ rates in natural communities are up to 90%, it seems prudent to remain skeptical about any *simple* relationship between the bacteria and gastritis or duodenal cancer (due to very well established dynamics of host-pathogen co-evolution). Particularly since most cases of ‘infection’ are asymptomatic in over 80% of cases.

        Therefore it is unsurprising then that there is increasing evidence that Helicobactor pylori may constitute natural gut flora in the human species and that it has evolved into a symbiotic relationship with its human carrier – and that it is now being implicated in providing protective factors against increasing incidences of some health issues such as gastro-oesophageal reflux disease and oesphageal cancer and asthma.

        It is possible that H.Pylori is asymptomatic and exists in a symbiotic relationship with its human carrier until some other factor disturbs the healthy population equilibrium that exists within normal homeostatic limits. (E.g drinking a vial of the bacteria all at once – a highly artificial scenario that may disrupt the normal equilibrium).

        * A hypothetical scenario * – H.Pylori has been implicated in helping regulate stomach acid concentrations, however if the stomach acid concentrations are affected too much by a third factor (e.g. stress causes proven physiological changes to stomach functioning via the fight/flight response or a sudden population change)

        - then the biological response of the H.Pylori (releasing the substance cag which is the noxious element implicated in causing ulcers) to moderate the acid concentrations becomes unbalanced and then begins to cause health issues when the frequency of this scenario is increased. Such as would be expected with a highly unnatural and unhealthy diet or stressful modern lifestyle with a lack of exercise (that reverses the physiological stress response.) A scenario somewhat like this would account for the strong phenomenological link between stress and peptic ulcers.

        So would you now call H.pylori the cause or an intermediary factor in this scenerio? Of course pharmacologically treating the bacteria may still be the best course of action as it will help heal the peptic ulcer heal in the short term but it may cause other health issues which is likely to have other adverse health effects, which may not be attributed to the eradication of the bacteria as the etiology of much illness is very difficult to trace – as I am sure you are well aware.

        Even though – the issues surrounding the role of H. pylori are very much open, in much of the medical community these questions are not asked – and a highly simplified and possibly false situation is taken as fact.

        I’m providing a quick reference:
        http://www.economist.com/node/11959214

        I’d be very interested if you have references to research that has taken into account these possibilities and refuted them with strong evidence based research.

        I could provide you with plenty of explicit cases of businesses suppressing or deliberately influencing research – but I feel that this case is a good example of an increasing trend for research to reach rapid conclusions that supports pharmacological intervention without a sufficiently critical evidence based scientific foundation.

        I have a great respect for the role pharmaceuticals do play in health – I just think that significant public health issues arise when health research is privatised. I don’t understand why this has become such a contentious position in the public sphere, it is the opinion of many well regarded scientists.

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        • lucinda

          I’d be very interested to know if you have any references to H.Pylori research which takes into consideration the huge body of research suggesting it causes peptic ulcers, and successfully refutes it and proves the claim that we need it in our guts. One Doctor in the Economist harping on about it doesn’t make it research. But if you studied you science you’d know that.

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    • Andy

      “I could outline endless examples historically and currently where the interests of public health have been subverted to those of financial interests which has involved both private corporations and government bodies.”

      I’m sure most of us could if we thought about it. But were these actions taken supposedly in the interests of public health? Were they health policies in the first place?

      For example, poker machine policy (currently under review) could be argued to favour financial interests over public health. But no one’s saying that policy is a health policy.

      I’m not sure I get your point. And what science did you study, if you don’t mind me asking? And how far did you get (note: I have no scientific qualifications at all).

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  11. LC

    Thanks Alice – this is a fantastic article that I have shared with friends. I am constantly being plagued with anti-vax information and scaremongering… so this was very welcome! I have an ethical question for everyone though (pro vaxxers and anti-vaxxers alike!) – should non-vaxxers make other mothers aware that their child is not vaccinated? I ask this because I recently found out (by accident) that a baby in my mother’s group isn’t vaccinated – yet the mother has not made this public knowledge. Our children all share toys, crawl around together, etc etc – and I would have thought this information may have been important to pass on. Has anyone got a view on this?

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    • fa

      It would be illegal and unethical. As would be forcing to disclose religion, age or sexual orientation

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  12. Laura

    My niece caught whooping cough at 6 weeks of age. She was extremely ill, hospitalized and it was heartbreaking watching her have coughing fits and turning purple, not even able to get a breath to cry and was still having occasional coughing fits months later. I wish people understood how serious it actually is.

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    • Greenslopeswitch

      Laura, my 9yo currently has Whooping Cough, I now have WC, my neighbours 2yo has WC and this morning I discover my 13yo coughing. Non-vaxxers need to think carefully about the risk they pose to the rest of the population. We are all fully vaccinated but the vaccine is really only effective for 4-6 years.

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      • Anonymous

        If the vaccine is only effective for 4 – 6 years, why haven’t you had a booster shot? Why doesn’t everyone have a booster shot every 4-6 years? Why is it that every person I know who has had WC in the last 5 years, and I’ve had at least half a dozen epople around me, has been vaccinated? Most of them were young children, 1 -5 years of age, and were well within that 4-6 year time period? Yet the group who aren’t vaccinated, again I have a fair few around me that aren’t, ( I should disclose that my children are vaccinated) have not only not had WC, but none of the other diseases that are flying around, namely chicken pox.

        As someone who has started the vaccine process with my children, I find myself questioning the science of it more and more everyday. I am not an anti-vaxer but I do struggle with blindly accepting the safety of all vaccines, expecially as they are currently addministered.

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    • fa

      my friends’ vaccinated daughter had whooping cough simptoms after the father had a whooping cough booster. Don’t blame the unvaccinated!

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  13. Naomi

    Love this article! As a passionate pro-vaxxer I am always glad to read these articles stating the informed and researched truth bout vaccines. Well done.

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  14. Claire

    Thanks for the fantastic article! I particularly love the line about big pharma. I’m a lab scientist and it goes without saying that I’ve never been asked to jump into bed with them. Although, I sometimes joke to my partner that I wish these rumours were true so that I could earn more than $50k a year for once! Myself and all the scientists and doctors I know, do their work because they care about mankind and want to make a difference. If it had anything to do with money we would avoid science alltogether! It is a very unappreciated and underpaid profession.

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  15. Hh

    I suggest you do an extensive, anonymous, ( otherwise the truth will be restricted) survey of doctors and ask if their children are vaccinated.,I did this anecdotally in a major children’s hospital many years ago and was shocked by the response.

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    • maggie

      That response being?

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    • Geekery

      So…you just rolled into a hospital with a clipboard and started questioning the doctors about their children? You must’ve been popular that day.

      ‘Anecdotally’ I hope your survey featured better grammar than your post. It’s pretty hard to take you seriously when you present your ideas like this.

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    • Scott

      You’re on to us Hh. We willfully inflict mind controlling toxins on the trusting public’s children, sparing our own to become a master race and grow fat at the teet of the Big Farmer

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      • Lyn

        Tee hee

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      • Andy

        “We willfully inflict mind controlling toxins on the trusting public’s children…”

        Seriously? You do realise this a public forum don’t you Scott.

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        • Scott

          Sorry Andy,
          I apologise if I offended you or others but my sarcastic reply was meant to highlight to absurdity of Hh’s post. Baseless slandering of the medical profession and scientific community (Big Pharma conspiracy) is common amongst anti-vaxxers and deserves to be ridiculed.

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          • Andy

            Sorry Scott, I actually recognised that and responded in kind :) I didn’t really think you’d breached Illuminati confidentiality. I mean, who would?

            No offence here. Just lizard-inspired agreement.

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            • Scott

              I think we recovered that nicely

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            • Andy

              Yep. It appears no one noticed.

              Cheque in the mail.

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  16. Kath

    Thank goodness.
    A rational article about immunisation!

    Whilst pregnant, it was suggested to me by a few well meaning friends that I “really should do my research before making the decision to immunise”. When I questioned how I should perform this research, the answer was “Google”.
    Sadly, this seems to be the main source of information for the anti-vaxers I have met.
    I could write a white paper stating that the Tdap vax has been known to turn your eyes orange and make your hair fall out, upload it, make up a name with a string of letters behind it, and no doubt someone would believe it.

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    • Sue

      And a rational approach, Kath. Somoe people seem to think that “doing your research” in a complex medical area is like “doing your research” on what fridge to buy – you ask a few friends, read a couple of magazines, look for some reviews on the net.

      But medicines and vaccinations are tested with scientific research – which means setting up a long series of tests, measuring things, collecting data, interpreting the data, defining the limitations of the study, and making conclusions based on what you’ve measured or observed. It takes skill, knowledge, rigorous discipline, time, and money.

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    • Alma

      Maybe your friends thought you would know where to go from there. There is reams of information on the net. Start here:

      http://www.thinktwice.com/

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    • fa

      How about, get the names of vaccines, who makes them, then look up the manufacturers’ websites for a comprehensive list of ingredients. Find interesting items, like MSG in Varivax, for chicken pox.

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      • Kris2040

        How about, get someone who actually knows how to read the lists of ingredients, what they do and how they work to explain it to you? Like, a doctor?

        What effect does MSG have, fa?

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  17. Geekery

    This is a great article! Let’s enjoy it while we can before the conspiracy lunatics turn up.

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  18. Anon

    Not to get too political, but I wonder if there’s a left/right side of the divide when it comes to appreciation of ‘controversial’ scientific topics.

    In my extremely limited observations of *outliers*, those nominally on the left believe in climate change but not vaccinations (/doctors/”Big Pharma” in general); those on the right tend to believe in the exact opposite.

    Has anyone else noticed this except me? I’m nominally on the right and I believe in both (but I also have an honours science degree, which is unusual on the right!)

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    • Kris2040

      I’m a bolshy little trot and I am probably as pro-vax as you can get! Other lefty friends are too.

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    • Andy

      I think you’ll find it’s a bit more complicated than that.

      The “religious-right” make up a substantial portion of the anti-science brigade, including anti-vax, from my admittedly limited reading. But it does seem that the “loony-left” attracts its fair share of “everything natural”, anti-science lobbyists.

      I sometimes think that the only sane ones are we, the people in the middle :)

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    • Geekery

      Where on earth did you get the idea that left-orientated people were anti-vax?

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    • Anon

      I believe in vaccinating although I am wary and conscious of Big Pharma. I do not really believe in man made climate change. I believe the climate changes but it has less to do with humans than what is made out.

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  19. Ken Dally

    Thanks Alice. Most of us are filled with awe and appreciation of the time and effort you and and others in research dedicate to understanding our reality and using that knowledge to benefit us all.

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  20. Tanya

    My problem with parents who do not vaccinate is that they put other peoples children at risk. Yes it is a parents right to not vaccinate their child but that parent then needs to keep their children away from babies who are not fully vaccinated yet.

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    • nolly

      I assume you expect the same of adults who are not completely up to date with boosters, vaxed children with any symptoms of sickness etc? As a fully vaxed mother of a partially vaxed child who knows many non/ partly-vaxing parents, I can say that I am anything but apathetic when it comes to transmitting illness, particularly to vulnerable groups. I simply haven’t witnessed the same level of awareness and care taken by the general populace (who seem content to rely entirely on the efficacy of vaxing).

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  21. Lizi

    Loving this sensible article on a topic that should be kept in the public eye. Could you do one on organ donation, too? I know MM did one recently, (kudos to MM) but the reponse was a bit lacking and I really think it’s an important issue that shouldn’t be allowed to fade away …

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  22. Mosquitonet

    My 2.5 year old daughter currently has whooping cough – a MILD case, because she was immunised as a baby. My husband and I haven’t caught the cough from her as we were both immunised at the same time.
    It haunts me to think about how our last few weeks may have been so very different had she not been immunised and I am very grateful for the doctor who jabbed me in the arm before I could say “can I have a think about that…” (I hate needles!)
    Great article and love the logical argument.

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    • Kris2040

      Hope she’s not suffering too badly with it, Mozzienet. :)

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  23. Jane DJ

    New Meningococcal B vaccine just developed!!! Whoo hoo!!
    SCIENTISTS ROCK!
    http://www.independent.ie/health/health-news/new-vaccine-could-save-children-from-the-deadly-b-strain-of-meningitis-2991793.html

    w w w .lancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61713-3/fulltext

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    • RetroPastiche

      So much like for the team behind this!

      Goooooooo SCIENCE!!!!!!

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  24. JosieY

    What a great article. I sometimes feel like a fool because I tend to trust teachers, doctors and other professionals until proven otherwise. One Dr missed my cancer – so I don’t see her anymore. She’s only human, I don’t blame her… but I choose to see another Dr for my own peace of mind. Otherwise, I trust them in combination with my instinct about myself and my family. Basically, I’m always ready to question anything I don’t understand, but overall I assume that they have my best interests at heart. So when I tell my Dr that I know I’m struggling but I don’t need to increase my medication and she says that’s disordered thinking, I trust her. When my daughter starts school on monday I will trust that the teachers will do their job without my interference and teach her what she needs to know (easier because I’m a teacher).

    Thank you for making me feel normal, not neglectful!

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    • Faybian

      You are very normal. I know far more about vaccines now, as a nurse vaccinator than I did when my kids were little. I also had a tumour missed by multiple doctors, but don’t resent it, as I was asymptomatic. The longer I’ve worked in health, the more I’ve realised medicine is an art as well as a science.

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  25. Raelean

    Thankyou so much for writing such a level headed and clear article. It articulates so much of what I have instinctually believed. It is reassuring to know that a scientist is able to trust and have faith in the system – gives me peace of mind in knowing that I have made the right choices in vaccinating our children. The doubters can sometimes plant doubt in your mind and when it comes to your kids you don’t want to make any mistakes. So thankyou…..

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  26. Anonymous

    So well said. Unfortunately, arguing with anti-vaxxers is like arguing with a flat-earther. Rational argument does not seem to work.

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    • Kaye

      Good comment! We are all just hoping the “flat-earther’s” kids dont get sick.

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  27. julie

    brilliant article, articulates my views exactly. I’m a food scientist, and have very similar views to the author evidently! Thanks for publishing.

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  28. presleykadena

    thank you so, so much for writing this article! i love reading something positive about vaccinating instead of something written to scare you away from them.

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  29. Jade

    Love this article Alice. It made me feel a lot more confident in my choices! Probably not for my poor 1 year old who is getting his needles this afternoon but you can’t win them all :) Thanks for such a positive, informative article with a refreshing point of view

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    • RetroPastiche

      It’s not as good as a lollypop but here’s a picture for your boy. Hope it all goes well for him.

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  30. Ezzalenko

    As an underpaid nerd who is constantly fighing against misinformation I have so much love for this article!!

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  31. Alice Callahan

    Wow, can I just say that I am overwhelmed by these positive responses to my article?! Sometimes when I spend too much time on the Internet, I forget that there are so many people out there with good sense! You have all reassured me and warmed my heart, too. I used to avoid the vaccine conversation, but now I feel a responsibility to spread the good word in a common-sense, respectful manner. There is so much misinformation out there, and many parents are truly unsure of who to trust. Let’s speak up for science and public health. Thanks again, and please pass the article on!

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    • Kris2040

      You know, I’ve been thinking about this article all day, and how anti-vaxers continually bust out the “do your research question question question” stuff. But aren’t scientists the adult versions of the kids who always asked “But why? But why?” and annoyed most adults? Because (I count myself as a But Why kid still) we need to see the logic and proof behind something, rather than just believe in it? It’s a word you don’t really see anti-anti vax people use much – believe. But when the AVers get going, it does get thrown around a fair bit by them. Again, nice piece, Alice!

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      • Alice Callahan

        Thanks, Kris! It is an interesting dichotomy, isn’t it? Questioning things is what makes us scientists, and we expect other scientists to constantly question things as well. That is really the basis of peer review. To ask, but why, but how, but are you sure about this? I would argue that my trust in the scientific community is really quite logical – not at all a blind emotional kind of trust – but a trust based on understanding the system and the motivations for the vast majority of scientists. Vaccine skeptics question things in a different way and I think feel they can trust nobody. I would question them as a scientist as well – “Exactly what evidence are you citing for this claim?” If you can’t answer that, then where do we start a reasonable discussion?

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  32. Anon

    There is actually a link between women that have yeast infections at the time of birth and children getting autism after vaccinations. Reason being is depending on the severity of the infection this is passed onto bub (not if you have a c-sec) and can create inflammation of the brain and/or a compromised immune system. Neither enough of an issue on there own to make any real impact on the child. However vaccinations flood the system (especially those that are multiple in one vaccs) that an immune compromised child cannot cope with in the way others can. This can lead to a higher risk of autism.

    All of these factors obviously need to be lined up just so and they are all “possible” not “probable” but you can see where some people start to draw anti-vac conclusions from. I think some research is always good but everything that comes with benefits have risks and they need to be weighed up against each other.

    I do think that the reason this is such a massive deal to so many people as opposed to say deciding whether or not to get home insurance is that the impact isn’t just on your family. It can affect many, many other people.

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    • CBR

      “However vaccinations flood the system (especially those that are multiple in one vaccs) that an immune compromised child cannot cope with in the way others can. This can lead to a higher risk of autism.”

      Uh. No they don’t. That is not how vaccinations work.

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    • catgirl

      There is actually a link between women that have yeast infections at the time of birth and children getting autism after vaccinations.
      That sounds really “odd” to me and I’ve never heard of that link before.
      Do you mind putting in links to your source of information that gives evidence to what you have just said.

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    • Kate

      Recent research has actually found that children with autism have 60% more brain cells in the prefrontal cortex. This part of the brain is responsible for communication and emotional development which are affected in prople with autism and these cells are formed early in the second trimester in utero (Forgive my vagueness, it’s late, I don’t have the link in my phone and my own autistic child is still up). There is absolutely no evidence that vaccination is linked to autism or that autism is “triggered”. It is a neurological disorder that people are born with. It is our lack of awareness and insight that causes us to not recognise it until 2-3 years. My son showed numerous indicators from birth in hindsight that people wrote off as teething/wind, having a shy temperament, etc. Dealing with an autism diagnosis is hard enough without having to also deal with all of the misinformation out there.

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      • Kris2040

        Kate – do you think (it’s one of my theories) that people know that their kids are on the spectrum but wait until they’ve had their jabs and then cry autism? I think it’s pretty likely.
        A guy I saw ages ago had a 3 yr old, I picked him as different straight away, and he and his ex were in denial about it – “Oh but you’ve only met him a couple of times, you don’t see him at home” type stuff. I would have thought that the fact I met him only quite briefly and still noticed behaviours and traits would suggest they’re pretty strong.
        Sorry to hijack, but interested in your experience of parents in the ASD community!

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        • Kate

          Think grief has a lot to do with it Kris. I worked with adults with autism for years and still didn’t get my son tested until he was 3, despite an early childhood teacher and his speechie recomending testing at 2 and 3 months as I just wasn’t ready to hear it, though deep down I knew. There have been a lot of theories over the years and most of them blamed the mother for a lack of bonding so I think the Wakefield study was something people wanted to believe.

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    • Geekery

      I’ve also heard that there’s a link between make-believe and everything you just claimed to be fact.

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  33. ladybug

    my father in law survived diptheria, and his story alone would convince sceptics of the importance of vaccinations. The risks of vaccinations are far outweighed by the benefits. I cannot fathom parents who are comfortable with their child being unvaccinated. The internet makes quacks able to voice their lunacy so easily under the guise of a well designed web page and some kooky accreditation details. I agree – trust science, trust health authorities.

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  34. ben

    Thanks. I do like vaccination but I’d still recommend children get one vaccination at a time over a period of time rather than one mega vaccination session if this is possible…

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    • Andy

      “…I’d still recommend children get one vaccination at a time over a period of time…”

      Why?

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      • Mandy

        The vaccination it’s self is harmless it’s the binding agents that are in question , that’s why it’s best to do one at a time :)

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        • Andy

          “…it’s the binding agents that are in question…”

          In question by whom?

          I assume you mean adjuvants and preservatives which would surely be included in mono-valent vaccines too. If so, it seems to me you’d get more of these additives by having individual vaccinations. (I’m not a doctor or scientist so I remain open to correction on any technical points)

          I assume the world’s immunologists and medical professionals think the multi-valent vaccines are okay including the various additives used to preserve them them to make them work efficiently. So, again, who’s questioning them and on what basis?

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    • DS

      Ben, on what basis do you make that recommendation?

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      • Cerri

        This was exactly the approach my GP recommended for my children.

        Because there is a family history of allergies and quite serious reactions to vaccines.

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    • Geekery

      Who suggested that, your magic 8-ball?

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  35. SkirtTheIssue

    Fantastic article Alice! I can sometimes feel a little dismayed when I read people write about doctors and scientists and make it sound like upon graduation we are all herded into a room, implanted with a brain chip that turns us into soulless zombies working for “Big Pharma/Brother/The Boogie Man ”! I know people can especially feel let down when negative things happen, like a doctor makes a misdiagnosis, or their child reacts to a medication or vaccine- and no one is saying these things don’t happen- but these individual events need to be put in perspective, and not be used as a basis for writing off whole fields of research that have been worked on by hard, dedicated (and usually poor! ) individuals for 1000’s of hours- and, in the case of vaccines, have saved 1000’s of lives.
    Agree with others sentiments- thanks MM for keeping this important discussion going!

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  36. Simba

    Thank you for writing this Alice. I have noticed the misinformation regarding vaccination creeping it’s way into our wider group of friends. My partner (also a scientist) and I have had arguments with friends partners about this issue. The fact that people are choosing not to trust scientists and doctors about this and are accepting rumour as fact astounds me.

    I think part of the problem is our generation (gen x/Y) has never know the outcomes that occur from not having vaccines and the blessing that science has provided by developing them. They have become complacent as a result. This complacency is dangerous.

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    • Em

      The generation thing is an interesting point, I hadn’t considered it before, but now that you mention it, I think you might be right. I doubt most people my age (20-ish) would know what something like diphtheria (for instance) actually does to the body. Many of the diseases we are immunised against just end up being names without an understanding of what they actually mean. Maybe more public awareness is needed about these diseases so people do realise what they are being protected against.

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      • Kris2040

        It’s something I remember being reported probably about 10 years ago. Our parents (I’m a 37 year old Xer) saw what happened to kids who had polio, heard from relos about aunties and uncles who never grew up because they had diphtheria. So we all got immunised, and it’s worked! But it’s kind of worked too well, because we have no concept of the diseases that have been controlled so well with immunisation. Hopefully it won’t take those awful diseases coming back to jolt people into making sure they get themselves and their kids vaccinated in the hope of being immunised.

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    • Prodip

      Kathi – I love the picture of you and Chad that is so awseome! I think you take wonderful pictures and I am so happy that you and your family are doing so well!

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    • Isadora

      would you believe Dried Bugs ?while vistiing South Africa with my family, we went on tour to one of the resorts where they show you how TRUE african people live, in huts and such, and one of the delicacies on the menu was Dried Bug . They believed it had multi vitamin purposes and provide stamina

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  37. floraly

    I love the vein of common sense that runs through this article. No bamboozling facts or scary bully tactics just a plain and simple truth that a dose of trust and perspective is critical in this absurd debate.
    I think it is most excellent that mamma mia keeps vocal about this debate – it really is the ultimate in first world problems. I fell blessed that my kids have access to immunisation.

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  38. Miss Jane

    Alice, as another stay at home science mum i want you to know that i am giving you a standing ovation. With a degree and further qualifications in public health, immunisation is an issue i am passionate about (but not an expert on). i couldn’t have put any of your points better and think you have written beautifully, reasonably and clearly.

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    • sciencemumtoo

      I totally agree. The article is full of common sense! Well done.

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    • eternally

      And it was funny! “underpaid nerds” “in bed with their husband/wife chatting about their failed cell culture”… Hehehe

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  39. Anthea W

    Another stay-at-home Mum here with a degree in immunology and virology. This is a great article. I have always feel the same way and couldn’t have put any of your points better.

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  40. EarleyDaysYet

    My 12yo niece was just diagnosed with rubella (“German measles”). Every adult – aunts, uncles, grandparents – in our family immediately went to get the booster shot. because there are unborn foetuses on the way. It’s just common sense – I don’t understand how anyone could meet a polio victim & still be ambivalent about getting the polio vaccine. Madness.

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    • Jane DJ

      That’s awful, for your niece. Do they know the source of her rubella?

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    • Cerri

      I have heard that even exposure to someone with Rubella, whether you are vaccinated or not, can affect the unborn… Can anyone dispell or confirm?

      And a lot of people aren’t aware that they need to continue getting boosters for many vaccinations.

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      • Jane DJ

        IF you are vaccinated, and if your immunity is still good – which for most women it will be – your fetus will be protected.
        They wouldn’t have a vaccination program for rubella if it didn’t protect the unborn fetus – they are the highest risk group and the primary reason we vaccinate for rubella!

        Before getting pregnant, women should have a pre-natal rubella antibody test to make sure they are still immune. If immune, all good, if not, that is when a booster is recommended, then you can get tested again. A very small proportion of people never seroconvert – that is where herd immunity is so important to protect them.
        If a woman becomes infected with Rubella during the first three months of her pregnancy and does not have immunity to the virus, the baby is at risk of having serious birth defects or dying.

        If you find out after getting pregnant that you are not immune to rubella, the option is there to be vaccinated, but it does carry a risk of transmission to the fetus, and you would get counselling to that effect, though the risk is very small.
        Read more here:
        http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-specialrisk232

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        • Kelly

          That me, I didn’t seroconvert. Had an immunity check prior to trying to fall pregnant, found I was low (next to no immunity) had a booster and then many months later fell pregnant. Only to discover in early pregnancy bloodwork that I still had no immunity. So thank you to everyone out there who has had their vaccinations. You are the reasons that I was not exposed to Rubella during my pregnancy!!

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  41. Jane DJ

    I have nothing to add – because, Alice, you have articulated it perfectly! From one stay at home science Mum to another – Bravo!

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  42. Tamara

    Fantastic article. Love our brilliant scientists and every breakthrough they’ve ever made that has improved our health or helped us understand our world should be cheered loudly by all of us.

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  43. May!

    I love this article. LOVE.

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  44. Andrea

    Thank you for this post which puts into words something that I haven’t ever articulated.

    I also work in health research and have done for the last decade. As I result I ALSO trust scientist and doctors and government agencies. While my friends all go up the corporate ladder and earn more money than I can dream of, I realise that people in my field are underpaid and do this out of passion and a quest for the answer.

    All these allegations about scientists and big pharma make my head spin sometimes and do a massive disservice to every person in the field that sweats blood and tears to offer the correct advice.

    Thank you thank you thank you!

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  45. kateinlondon

    Terrific article Alice, and great to see another article on the topic on the site.

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  46. Nora

    “Contrary to many claims on the Internet, scientists are not in bed with Big Pharma, conspiring make millions at the expense of your child’s health. They are in bed with their husbands and wives, probably chatting about their latest failed cell culture experiment.”

    This made me giggle. Wonderful article!

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    • DS

      When we’re not slaving in the lab, of course ;)

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    • kc

      so beautifully put! again, from on scientist (PhD) to another – bravo (except i can’t talk about my last failed PCR…my husband really doesnt care…but he pretends to, which is nice)

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  47. happyface

    Immunizing my kids was never even an option for me, I did it as naturally as feeding them. To me it is the right of the child to be protected from harm and I have never seen enough evidence to go against it.

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  48. Em

    Totally agree!! The conceit of il informed thinking they know better is staggering. btw experience has made me a better parent ;)

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  49. Anon today 23

    I would trust the science more if they would admit that ‘one size fits all’ doesn’t always work, and if they would accept that every time I give my child a vaccination they react (the latest one I gave her just over a year ago resulted in a big angry red welt from shoulder to elbow, and a child with sensory issues who usually has a very high pain threshold crying from the agony of it. I had decided the positives outweighed the negatives, went in to get the shot, got talked into giving her the 6 in 1 by my GP, rather than the 3 in 1 I was asking for, and paid the price). They always tell me that it is coincidence and can’t have anything to do with the vacc she had just hours ago in the same arm. You can tell me that I can report it myself, but if it was ‘good science’ I would argue that the Dr has a responsibility to report something like this also. When they sweep stuff like this under the carpet, and won’t record an adverse reaction (and this is the GP that I am supposed to trust as being part of the science of it all) it affects my ability to blindly trust in their knowledge and abilities and make future decisions based on said trust.

    For the record (because I am sure that I will get an almost immediate response that I must be in Meryl Dorey’s hip pocket – which is so untrue as to be almost offensive), my kids are mostly vaccinated – they are just missing a couple like varicella, and have each only had the MMR once rather than twice.

    I WANT to trust the science. The ‘science’ I have been personally exposed to is not filling me with any confidence though. Yes GPs are not perfect human beings, but so many times I seem to strike questionable ones (like the one that thought my later-proven appendix problem was anorexia!! Or the ED one that sent my husband with an about-to-burst appendix home with a panadol!) that it affects my ability to place much faith in what I am told.

    I wish I knew less, and could trust more. It would definitely make life easier. I really appreciate your article, and do not suggest for a second that I know anything more than you do – in the field of science especially I will happily admit I know far FAR less than you do. In my everyday world though, my experiences seem to keep teaching me to question what I am told. We learn from our experiences, don’t we?

    Thank you for your article though! As always I continue to read whatever I can get my hands on to further my own education, and your article will certainly be yet another part of what I continue to learn daily! Congratulations on the arrival of your wonderful child! I wish for very good things in your future!

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    • Anonymous

      Better a welt than dying from whooping cough …. I live in an area in Australia where misinformation and ignorance has led to a loss of herd immunity to many preventable diseases …. last year, 2 small otherwise healthy babies DIED from whooping cough (pertussus) and many more were hospitalised …. and a 20 year old otherwise healthy woman DIED of diptheria …. I wonder what the parents of those babies
      think about immunisation? And I wonder if the parents who chose not to immunise their daughter as a child regret their decision …

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      • Cerri

        My younger brother and sister (twins) caught Whooping cough less than 2 days after their vaccination.
        They were not exposed to anybody who had the illness.
        The doctor not only refused to accept that there could have been a link, he accused my mom of negligence for not vaccinating them…

        Then when my sister was at boarding school, they had an outbreak of Rubella. My sister wasn’t vaccinated so they sent her home and fortunatley she didn’t catch it.
        One girl died from it and she had been vaccinated.

        These events did happen more than 20 years ago and no doubt the vaccines have changed in that time. It is still possible for a person to catch an illness they are immunised against – just less likely.
        The more people who are vaccinated, the less likely the illness will be around for anyone to contract…

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        • Jane DJ

          The incubation period for Whooping Cough is 7 – 20 days, usually about 14 days so it would be highly unlikely that your siblings would develop symptoms 2 days after any kind of exposure, let alone the vaccine.

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      • don

        THE bacteria that causes whooping cough in Australia has mutated, scientists have warned, eroding the protection provided by the vaccine now given to children.
        Researchers from the University of New South Wales have identified significant changes in the two most common strains of the Bordetella pertussis bacteria, which they also traced back to events in the late 1990s.

        Australian children were given a broad-acting “whole cell” vaccination against whooping cough up to 1997, but this was phased out over two years and replaced with a more targeted version. Concerns over potential side-effects were behind the change over to a vaccine with a narrower scope, but this now appears to have contributed to the promotion of resistant strains.

        “A key issue is that the whole cell vaccine contained hundreds of antigens, which gave broad protection against many strains of pertussis,” said Associate Professor Ruiting Lan of the UNSW School of Biotechnology and Biomolecular Sciences.

        “But the (targeted) acellular vaccine contains only three to five antigens.

        “Our findings suggest that the use of the acellular vaccine may be one factor contributing to these genetic changes.”

        The research team analysed more than 200 samples of the bacterium collected over the past 40 years in Australia, and these were compared with samples from Japan, Canada, USA and Finland.

        They found while the vaccine now in use was effective against some of the strains circulating in Australia it may no longer protect against two strains, known as MT27 and MT70.

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        • Jane DJ

          Don, you didn’t finish copypasting the rest of that 2010 article, which goes on to say:


          Dr Lan said more research was needed to confirm the results but health authorities may need to modify the vaccine to broaden the protection it offered, “or over time it could lose effectiveness as the organism evolves.

          The discovery comes amid an increase in whooping cough cases in Australia, with several significant outbreaks seen last year in western Sydney.

          Protection against whooping cough is contained in the range of childhood vaccinations which, in NSW, are usually given to infants at two, four and six months. Parents who opt out of this child vaccination process were thought to have contributed to the rise in cases, along with improved diagnosis, and the mutation discovery adds a third potential contributor.

          One in 200 infants who contract whooping cough before they turn six months will die of the infection”

          Source : http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/whooping-cough-vaccine-may-need-to-change-say-researchers/story-e6frfku0-1225828831142#ixzz1jnCmbVAD

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    • DS

      I think you’re confusing GP’s with scientists ;) anyway…

      You do realise that a single shot of the MMR is probably useless over the long term, and would probably only generate short-term, low level immunity?

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      • Anon

        My 14 year old daughter still has immunity for Measles, Mumps and Rubella from one MMR shot 13 years ago (confirmed with a blood test just weeks ago).

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      • DrAnon

        I saw a patient yesterday who needed forms signed to start working in health care. He had all of his childhood vaccination records with him (his mum had kept them carefully!) and had only had one MMR so I checked his serology which confirmed immunity to all three. From memory, about 95% of people will gain immunity from the first dose but a second dose increases this to 99%.

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        • respect everyone's decision

          Yet I have had the Rubella vaccine 5 x in my life, yet my blood tests still show I have no immunity to it. After having a “booster” after the first 2 of my children, I didn’t bother after my third child, as I knew that for some weird reason, the vaccine didn’t “take” with me.

          After my own experience, and side effects after my first 2 children’s first 3 vaccines, I have stopped vaccinating all three, and my last child has had no vaccines at all.

          I totally understand people having strong opinions on this topic. I firmly believe, however, in the right for people to make this health care decision on behalf of their own family. Vaccination is a personal choice, and one that should be respected whether you agree with other’s choices or not.

          All parents want to do the best for their children, but not every parent is going to agree with others on the best way of doing so.

          I find that Mamamia’s vaccine discussion to be strongly one-sided, so therefore in the past have tried not to be involved, however I just had to say that from my experience, not everyone’s bodies react “as expected” after a vaccine.

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          • Kris2040

            It’s people like you, who the vaccine doesn’t take for (no-one claims every vaccine is 100% effective for 100% of people 100% of the time) who need the most people to get vaccinated. If herd immunity is high, the diseases don’t get a chance to take hold in the community.

            What reactions did your kids have?

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            • Respect everyone's decision

              First child mostly severe swelling that stopped him walking for 3 days (injections were in his thighs), second child the same, but she also (coincidentally?) got something called Acute Hemorrhagic Odema of Infancy which is a form of Henoch-Schonlein Purpura shortly after her last vaccine.

              All I want, is for people to be able to make their own decisions. I respect other people’s decision to vaccinate, and I expect the same in return. Not all choices to not vaccinate are based on ignorance.

              We all love our children, and want to make the best decisions for them that we can. We are not always going to make the same decision as everyone else, and that should be respected.

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            • Kris2040

              Yet no mention of herd immunity protecting you and others who choose not to vaccinate?

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            • Kris2040

              I just had a look at the conditions you listed as vaccine related – no mention of vaccines at all.
              It’s an understandable jump to make, but from what it says about those conditions it wouldn’t be the jabs causing it. What did doctors say?

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            • Andy

              “All I want, is for people to be able to make their own decisions.”

              They can, it’s not compulsory, but that doesn’t mean all decisions should be respected equally. I wouldn’t respect you if you decided not to put seat belts on your children. Should I?

              But, I do respect that some people discover their kids are allergic to vaccines and, if the medical advice is to avoid or alter their future immunisations, I’d respect a decision to follow that advice.

              But if the decision is made, without evidence, on the basis that the child just might be allergic – based solely on gut instinct – then I’d understand that decision (in the current climate of vaccine fears spread by the anti-vax lobby), but I wouldn’t exactly respect it.

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          • Sarah

            You say:
            “Vaccination is a personal choice, and one that should be respected whether you agree with other’s choices or not.”

            But it’s not – it’s a public health issue. I don’t give a rats if you don’t want to vaccinate, but I then expect you to keep your children at home and insular. If you want to spread disease among your family, go for it! That’s a personal decision! But the minute your children get sick with something like whooping cough or diptheria, it becomes a public health issue. MM has been one-sided on this issue because the ‘other side’ is so full of rumour and misinformation that it’s not worth including seriously in the debate.

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          • Geekery

            Like Kris said, wouldn’t you be encouraging others to ensure they’re vaccinated so they can’t pass the illnesses onto your family?

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            • oscar's mum

              if you dont believe in vaccine immunity then no, you wouldnt encourage others to vaccinate. we don’t want to become like america where vaccines are forced by mandate and they have to pay a tax for each vaccine they get to pay for a fund to compensate those injured/killed by vaccines. VAERS -vaccine adverse event reporting system- is available online. Just pick a vaccine or a disease and pull up all the adverse reactions linked to that disease. For example: gardisal has over 100 entiries for girls that have died after getting the vax.

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            • Kris2040

              Which one turned a guy into the Incredible Hulk? That’s on VAERS too…

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    • Kris2040

      How do you know the trivalent jab wouldn’t have had the same reaction as the hexavalent one?

      And how did long her reaction on her arm last for?

      No pro-vax person I know would suggest that there are no reactions to vaccines. That’s what they’re designed to do – provoke an immune reaction. Every time I’ve taken KDot for jabs and when I had my own whilst in the navy, it’s been very easy to get info about possible reactions and what to do about them. Our jabs in recruit school were sometimes timed so that we wouldn’t need to, eg, do pushups for the rest of the day.

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      • Anon today 23

        I actually don’t know that the 6 in 1 would be any worse for my child than the other one I originally went in ready to request (after being given information about it from the Australian Immunisation government phone contact – sorry I know this won’t be the correct name for it, but it was the one that I was eventually led to after going the government route for information). I mentioned that (probably not in a very eloquent way I admit!) because I guess I wanted to show that my views weren’t really being taken into consideration, because of the view that the ‘science says the child will be fine’ attitude my GP had and ‘science’ was wrong in this instance. I have just worked out over the years that vaccinations do not seem to agree with this child.

        My other child, however, seems to handle them fine (well up until the last one anyway which caused her to pass out in a dramatic way 20 mins after we left the Drs and led to an ambulance ride).

        I hesitate to write things like this because I do not advocate one way or the other on this. As a whole I agree with immunisation. But I don’t like that every time I have to take either of my children for an immunisation I cross my fingers and desperately hope that this next reaction isn’t going to be a whole lot worse than what I have seen previously. It would be nice if my kids were the types that barely registered the shot – they may have a tiny little bump, and got on with their everyday lives with not even a raised temp. I know most kids are like this. The problem is my kids are not (well one of them in particular by a long way) and the fact that the ‘science’ that I am exposed to on the front line (the GP who will advocate for the use of them) refuses to see any grey on this matter concerns me. It took the ambulance ride to convince them to record an adverse reaction, and this is for the child that I am not even usually concerned about reacting! My other child who usually reacts to each and every one of them is still apparently ‘fine’ with them.

        Yes, they are vaccinated for whooping cough, but I count myself extremely grateful that they got through those without too much of an adverse reaction that affected them in an ongoing way. A live child is definitely far better than one who has died from whooping cough, but there are plenty of ways that their lives can continue to be affected, and not just by a small red bump that goes away. Unfortunately my family is one of the families affected by this.

        If a child has vacc and is fine with them, then great. Get the whole schedule and on time. If not though, they should be willing to admit that in just the same way on a basic hospital admission form they check with drugs you have allergies to, or sensitivities to, I think they should be willing to admit that in some kids vaccination can be problematic. And this does not just mean for the kids that suffer an immediate life threatening reaction – there is a whole other scale beyond this that gets ignored. I don’t know the solution. If they knew why some kids react and others don’t and there was some kind of pre-emptive test to make sure they would be fine with them before receiving them, I would certainly have happily paid for it before giving vacc to my child. I think most parents would actually. But I realise that this is no small thing to administer nationwide (paperwork, research etc) and I am not holding my breath.

        Sorry, my own little personal private bugbear. I am not out there advocating for people to go one way or the other – my family is my primary interest, just like it is for every other concerned parent out there, no matter which way they choose to go. Just wanting people to make their own decisions I guess, and I have respect for both possible decisions.

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        • Cass

          Your case (with children that have had adverse reactions to vaccines) is exactly why I think that everyone who doesn’t have a medical reason not to ought to get their child vaccinated. If we can get the herd immunity high enough then your kids will also be protected.

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    • Anon

      Firstly, apologies for posting as anon, that’s not usually my style, however the intensity of reactions to the immunisation debate means I’m not willing to air my views publicly without some form of protection. Secondly, thank you Anon today 23 for so rationally and respectfully giving your experience.
      I wish the medical profession, the scientific community and the general community would take a moment to consider why intelligent, thoughtful people are choosing not to vacinate their children and calmly consider their reasons so that perhaps we could find a way to work around it together. The reporting of adverse reactions is an important factor in monitoring the impact of vaccinations yet I don’t have faith that they are being reported adequately. Our family history contains at least one (that we know of) rare disease for which science cannot give an answer to what causes it, the person who is inflicted (on looking back) can see she first noticed symptoms after a vaccination. Coincidence? Possibly. But we don’t know. Consideration needs to be given to the medical history of a family rather than disregarding a parent’s concerns. I saw reactions in my children to vaccinations and decided to stop (single dose vaccines given over a longer timeframe didn’t seem to be an option). The decision was the hardest decision of my life but I know it was right for my children. It’s not set in stone I may agree to some single does vaccines in the future and my eldest daughter is almost old enough to make up her own mind. I’m not some crazy quack who believes in conspiracy theories, I have no association with any anti-immunisation groups. I’m just a mum trying to do the best I can. I wish the medical and scientific communities would stop disregarding the genuine concerns expressed and take a moment to consider how we could all worth together to address this problem.

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      • Kris2040

        As Scott, Kristy, myself and others have pointed out though, while reactions may be painful for your kid or you in the short term, they’re recognised and we are warned about them. I don’t think that is sweeping concerns under the carpet. It’s saying that vaccines can have these reactions, and telling us about them and what to do should they occur.
        It may seem major when it happens for that day or so, but it isn’t in the big scheme of things. Whooping cough, meningitis, Pneumococcal, Measles, Mumps, Chickenpox, Rubella, Rotavirus… All major and potentially deadly.

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        • Anon

          My issue wasn’t about immediate and short-term reactions such as swelling or fever.

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          • Kris2040

            You’re being pretty vague.

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            • Anonymous

              Anon, I feel exactly the same way, except I don’t see to be able to articulate my thoughts as well as you have.

              My biggest issue with vaccines has been about the reporting of adverse effects. Kris2040, you say “while reactions may be painful for your kid or you in the short term, they’re recognised and we are warned about them. I don’t think that is sweeping concerns under the carpet. It’s saying that vaccines can have these reactions, and telling us about them and what to do should they occur.” In my experience this has not been the case, I have had three children, in my immediate circle of friends, experience an adverse reaction to vaccines, 2 were short term: swelling, temps, irritability, loss of appetite, lasting a month. The third, started have a convulsion 15min after having his jab, whilst still in the dotor’s office. He then had to be rushed to Westmead children’s hospital, where he continued to have fits for the next week. He spent 3 weeks at the hospital and has continued to have major health problems. He is now 5 years old.

              Now, what has concerned me most about these 3 case, is not that they happened, for as you say, adverese reactions do happen and we are apparently warned about that, it is that with all three cases the doctors did not report them to any higher body, if such a body even exists. I now for a fact that the parents asked their gps if these inccidents would go onto a register of adverse effects and in each instance they were told that the childrens reactions could NOT be proved to be related to the vaccine shots. It was not up for negotiation! This is where I start to question the stats, and whether the benefits outweight the risks? I now these are not isolated cases, because when you start talking to other people whose children have had an adverse reaction that same issue comes up. When you question the system about reporting and safety, you are accused of being a conspiracy theorist or quack.

              In my experience, and I now this is only aneccdotal, all of the people who have questioned the saftey of vaccines, are not people who distrust the mainstream system and believe that big pharma is out to get us, but are rather people who have encountered a problem and have had the door closed in their faces when they’ve tried to question the system.
              Ok, rant over!

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        • fa

          And you call AVN fear-mongering? Chickenpox-deadly? Mumps-deadly? My friend’s sister died from a polio vaccine. My best friend’s son was fine until MMR, then he stopped talking. My other friend’s son went into a coma after vaccine and sustained brain damage. Why should anyone “have a go” just to find out if their child would have a reaction to the shot that will kill them or leave them an invalid?

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          • Kris2040

            I can find actual stats and reports about Chickenpox and Mumps leading to death pretty easily. Can you to back up your claims?

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            • Kris2040

              Like this:

              Mumps is an acute infectious disease caused by a paramyxovirus. Although the disease is usually mild, up to 10% of patients can develop aseptic meningitis; a less common but more serious complication is encephalitis, which can result in death or disability. Permanent deafness, orchitis, and pancreatitis are other untoward effects of mumps. Based on data reported to WHO up to April 1998, mumps vaccine is routinely used by national immunization programmes in 82 countries/areas: 23 (92%) of 25 developed countries, 19 (86%) of 22 countries with economies in transition (mainly the Newly Independent States of the former Soviet Union), and 40 (24%) of 168 developing countries. Countries that have achieved high coverage have shown a rapid decline in mumps morbidity. Furthermore, in many of these countries, mumps-associated encephalitis and deafness have nearly vanished. This review considers the disease burden due to mumps; summarizes studies on the immunogenicity, efficacy, and safety of different strains of mumps vaccine; and highlights lessons learned about implementing mumps immunization in different countries. Countries already using mumps vaccine should monitor immunization coverage and establish routine mumps surveillance with investigation of outbreaks. Where mumps is targeted for elimination, countries need to add a second dose of mumps vaccine for children, keeping in mind that the disease may still occur in susceptible adults.

              From here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2557572/?tool=pmcentrez&rendertype=abstract

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    • Scott

      Hi Anon today 23,
      I’m no doubt stating the obvious when I say that your child’s swollen arm was almost certainly an adverse effect of the vaccine. This is a well recognised reaction to vaccination, particularly the DTPa. Generally speaking doctors are not encouraged to report this particular reaction. Firstly because it is well recognised and the rate of reaction well understood from past epidemiological research. Secondly (and not to trivialise the pain and misery your child endured) it is considered minor. Reports surround either rare events or events with high morbidity. I’ve seen a number of kids with vaccine preventable diseases. While no doubt horrid at the time, I imagine your child made a full recovery. Sadly the same cannot be said for the victims of meningococcus, pneumococcus, Hib and polio.

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      • kristy

        whenever my kids have vaccines i am given a list of possible side effects… in nearly all of them there is a risk or redness and swelling at the site of vaccination. I agree with Scott this is minor… if the child was having difficulty breathing or started convulsing then that would be definitely cause for concern and Im sure your GP would act on it.

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    • Anon ***

      Anon today 23, thank you so much for your comment you have articulated exactly what I was hoping to say with such eloquence well done!

      I too appreciate this article. It’s refreshing to read something about the vaccination debate that isn’t heavily weighted with anger & arrogance stemming from fear on both sides & instead comes from the point of view of parents just trying to do the right thing.
      My husband & I did pore over the research & truly did agonise over what to do best for our child, we didn’t go into our decision not to vaccinate lightly or blindly. Instead we made the decision to immunise our child homeopathically. Although there will probably be a roar of outrage for admitting that on here, ultimately it is our decision, as every parent has the right to their own decisions & are just trying to do their very best to give their children the best life that they possibly can.
      Many times I wish I could have trust in the health sector & not have had so many reasons from my own & others experiences to distrust.
      It certainly would make parenting a lot easier, I still agonise over whether we are making the right choices & I still follow this debate closely & read everything I see from both sides of the fence. We remain open to the argument but as yet in our experience we are still unconvinced that vaccinations are the way to go.

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      • Scott

        Anon ***,
        As a doctor I would ask you one small favour. If your child is unwell and you present to your doctor and your doctor asks if your child is immunised, please, please, please do not answer “yes” because your child has had homeopathy.

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        • kateaswell

          Is it actually possible to immunise homeopathically? Genuine question – I can’t imagine what that can mean?

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          • Scott

            If by you question can you buy items marketed as homeopathic vaccinations, then the answer is yes.

            If you mean is there any rationale explanation as to how what is essentially just water may provide immunity from infectious disease, or any evidence that these do anything other than quench the child’s thirst and provide the parent with a false sense of security that their child is protected, then the answer is no.

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            • kateaswell

              Thanks, Scott, that was my question. Wa curious as to whether the homeopathic approach entailed needles just like the actual medical one, or whether it more relied on chanting and rings of stones and stuff, you know?

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            • Scott

              Anytime Kate, glad to be of assistance. I forgot to mention it is also proven to transfer money from your pocket into that of the homeopath.

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          • Andy

            It’s bizarre.

            Ordinarily, when they give a homeopathic product to a healthy person, they call it a “proving” and it is intended to induce effects that indicate what that product might be used to treat. So, if the provers gets itchy eyes and a runny nose, that product will theoretically treat a cold.

            However, when they give a homeopathic product to a healthy child, they don’t get effects similar to whooping cough, even if that’s what the product is targeting. So now they call it “homeoprophylaxis” and tell the parent the kid’s been immunised.

            It’s a bit like magic really.

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            • Sue

              Ironically, the original “treat like with like” philosophy would have been consistent with modern immunisation – you give a tiny dose of the antigen, the body reacts to develop immunity, so you are prepared for an encounter with the actual organism. What has actually happened is that homeopaths use nonsensical dilutions (the dilution and succussion philosophies never made any sense) and the use the “like with like” nonsensically to allegedly treat symptoms. Except, whatever had been in that water, the body couldn’t possibly recognise any more. Strange how these few of the weird ancient practices seems to have survived today – despite all the knowledge we have about how the human organism works. Some people just want to keep believing.

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      • Jane DJ

        Depending on the age of your child (must be older than six months, after maternal antibodies are no longer protecting them) , you can easily have a blood test to measure Measles, Mumps and Rubella IgG antibody levels, that would really put your mind at ease as to whether the homeopathic vaccination has worked. .

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      • CBR

        “Many times I wish I could have trust in the health sector & not have had so many reasons from my own & others experiences to distrust.”

        So instead you trusted people who claim, against the laws of chemistry and physics, that homeopathic ‘medications’ are anything but water?

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      • Daniel Sinnott

        ” Instead we made the decision to immunise our child homeopathically.”

        So, rather than take the end result of decades of research and proven results with minimal chance of detrimental side effects, you gave your child water.

        Yes, people will be outraged, as they should.

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      • sharon

        this post reminded me of a story that i read in the newspaper once. it was something about a man and woman who treated their baby with homeopathy and the baby died and they were charged with manslaughter…happened in england. if anyone knows the story and can link to the article that would be great.

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        • Jane DJ

          It happened here – in Sydney in 2009. Poor poor little mite.

          http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-09-28/parents-jailed-over-babys-death/1445256

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          • Andy

            And the father was a senior lecturer in homeopathy – in Australia!

            Presumably his graduates are still out there, doing as they were taught to do. And people fear the medical profession!

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        • Bananna

          The baby died from untreated ezcema (sp?). Why do anti-vaxxers never consider this research in making what they claim is a “personal” decision

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          • Kris2040

            There’s a document put around by the AVN that claims that Measles in early childhood cures eczema. Not even joking. My eczema didn’t listen to the measles I had when my brother and sister were born and I couldn’t go into the hospital to meet them and see Mum.

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      • Andy

        “Instead we made the decision to immunise our child homeopathically. Although there will probably be a roar of outrage for admitting that on here, ultimately it is our decision, as every parent has the right to their own decisions & are just trying to do their very best to give their children the best life that they possibly can.”

        Not to be flippant, but that’s a bit like telling us you use a very expensive tissue-paper ribbon as a seat belt. Sure it’s gentle and will never strangle the child or cause severe bruising or trap them in a burning vehicle – but as a means of actually protecting the child – as a seat belt should – it’s worthless.

        Now, to be flippant, you really need some powdered unicorn horn to make the homeopathic vaccine useful.

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  50. Kris2040

    Nice one guys. So awesome that you keep this in the spotlight. Loved the article too, Alice! :)
    Yet another blog to follow…

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