“The cafe is not your child’s playground” – this is the tweet from Clementine Ford that caught our attention earlier this month. Mine particularly since I am a acutely sensitive to children’s screaming in public places (actually at home as well) . But also because I have a noise-maker myself. I like to call him Ethan, because he’s my son and that’s his name.
And then there was this response to Clementine’s tweet from Samantha Maiden who wrote “can you cut out and keep for when you have kids? Will make you laugh. Can’t really pick and choose when toddler loses it.”
Before I had Ethan I used to look at kids “behaving badly” in public with abject horror, and when I say behaving badly I mean making a noise. I didn’t get it. When I saw them crying in public I felt sad for them and wondered why their parents weren’t comforting them. When
I saw them being loud and rambunctious I felt sorry for myself that I had to listen to the noise.
Now I’m not saying that I am perfect, far from it, and I don’t mean to imply that I know more than any other person who doesn’t have a child but I am saying that the way I look at these things has changed. I now understand where it’s coming from and I often feel deep empathy with the mother .
I know that it’s bloody hard to have kids that aren’t robots. Some times they act, well they act like kids and this means they cry, they shout, they laugh very loudly and they often react to the world with great (loud) wonder. They also talk. A lot – well at least Ethan does.
Does this mean that he should stay at home all the time?
Of course I am going to try my best to teach him right from wrong, and instill in him manners that dictate there are certain times when he should be seen rather than heard. I’ve used the words “inside voice” and “this is not the playground” more times than I’d care to admit but sometimes, just because this is the world he’s growing up in and he has a right to be part of it, I allow him to be himself. Even in public.
Seems though that there are a couple of places I wont be taking him to. Like this one. where you have to pay the equivalent of corkage for your kids. The Huffington Post reports:
When 34-year-old mother Natasha Young got her check at Cosmo Restaurant in South London’s Croydon, she noticed an extra £3 (around $5) on the bill. She asked about it, and was informed the fee was for bringing her 6-week-old son along, the London Evening Standard reported.
Even after Young explained that her son wasn’t eating, Cosmo’s staff refused to remove the charge. They told her she had to pay because her baby was taking up space in the restaurant.
…And she wasn’t the only new mom to face this policy. Ana Sheridan, 28, also got charged when she brought her 6-month-old daughter to Cosmo’s. Her baby, Sheridan says, wasn’t even taking up room in a highchair; she was sitting on her parents’ laps and being breastfed. When Sheridan explained this to the restaurant’s staff, they wouldn’t budge. “They said it was their new policy. That was all,” Sheridan explained to the London Evening Standard.
The subsequent uproar and media attention prompted a formal apology from Cosmo Restaurants (Croydon is only one of their 12 locations), which can be found on their website.
Then there’s this from the US, where one restaurant has banned children altogether. From MSNBC in the US:
Beginning Saturday, children 6 and under are no longer welcome at the restaurant in Monroeville, Pa., just outside of Pittsburgh. [McDains] They’ve just become too much of a bother for the other customers.
Owner Mike Vuick built the neighboring golf center 22 years ago, then opened the restaurant nine years ago. Young children have become an increasing issue in that time, he says. But don’t accuse Vuick of hating kids — his problem is mostly with the parents.
“Parents have gradually diminished their cooperation,” he said, adding that the new policy is strictly in response to customer complaints.
“This is a three-part issue. One is the increasing number of small babies that can’t be controlled. They can’t be quiet and really they can’t be expected to.”
The second factor is kindergarten-aged kids who “have shown increasingly poor manners.” And lastly he blames parents, who “act like we’re the ones being offensive” when staff members ask them to calm their children down.
What do you think? Should restaurants be able to charge parents to take their kids to restaurants? Should they be able to ban children altogether?
Comments
412 Comments so far
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I would assume that the majority of parents have BRAINS and therefore know where and where NOT to take their children to eat – If not then they themselves are just as annoying as a screaming child is with ANY meal!
P.S. If your child CAN’T draw on the tablecloth then it’s a sure bet you’re in the wrong place!
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We are going on holidays in 2weeks, with a 6month old and a 4yr old. Every meal will be eaten in a public space, we have no choice! My son is very good in restaurants, but like any child, he talks loudly when he’s excited, and cant sit still for too long (hard when your meal takes ages!). We bring books and pencils…
Even with a mostly perfect diner, i get nervous about people’s reactions. Children have never bothered me, even before i had kids and i am acutely aware of how precious some people can be. I think we need to lighten up about noise and kids!
Personally i dont have a problem with high-end restaurants banning children, i wouldn’t go there anyway with children as for a special occaision, you need predictability to enjoy your meal. But patrons and staff of restaurants and cafes need to understand parents try incredibly hard to be socially aware whilst eating out with their child, and we will go to businesses that make our lives easy. Stressed parent leads to stressed, noisy child!
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I am a mother, and personally, I don’t care if some restaurants ban young kids – I just won’t go there. There are so many restaurants in pretty much every single city that it is not like a huge deal. There are plenty of restaurants that are designed as ‘family friendly’.
If I were going to a restaurant that is like $50 or more a person (between appetizer, meal, drinks, dessert, etc) for instance, first – I would not be bringing my child anyway, and secondly, I would not want my nice meal disrupted by someone else bringing their child. So I would so go to a nice ‘child-banned’ restaurant for a ‘date night’ with my husband.
That’s how teenagers make money – babysitting! So let them do it!
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Meh. If only I could ban every irritating person in the world from being around me.
I don’t care what anyone thinks of my toddler eating out with us. I don’t bring her out specifically to annoy anyone. Bad luck if you’re so sensitive that a short person makes you choke on your soy.
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Screaming kids in a restaurant isn’t, believe it or not, as bad as a screaming baby in a movie. Especially Gold Class. Or a four yr old chatting it’s way through The Dark Night or some equally horrifying movie completely unsuitable for kids….
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Children are a part of society, part of our families. Why should they be excluded from certain restaurants or cafes? If we don’t take them out on occasions, how and where are they supposed to learn the skills to be able to sit up at a table and eat their dinner nicely in a social setting. Every Saturday we take our kids out to a cafe for a milkshake. The staff have come to know them and are always so lovely to them, and likewise our children to them. Look around, there are many people you see out, talking too loudly, drinking too much, not having the good manners to be polite to staff. Perhaps these are the people who weren’t taken out as children and taught the skills…?
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I am a parent with a toddler who is currently going through the “terrible twos” so I know how bad it is when she is kicking/screaming and generally making life hard for people.
While I don’t agree with restaurants banning people, I think parents need to take some responsability, if your child is being a terror, take them home. I give my daughter a couple of chances, if she doesn’t start behaving quickly then we leave. I don’t want to make everyone elses nights miserable because my daughter is misbehaving.
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Reading these posts makes me astounded that kids and parents are seen in such negative terms by the general population. Even those who have kids are breathlessly justifying how they wouldn’t let their children “bother” other people.
You know what “bothers” me? The hostility of people towards children and anyone who is engaged in the thankless, exhausting and exhilarating job of parenting the next generation.
But if your behaviour bothers me, do I exclude you from society? No. I live with it. Society is comprised of all kinds of people, who behave in all kinds of ways. If someone is throwing food all over you or injuring you, well fine, there are laws about that. If someone is talking loudly or laughing or having trouble with their fine motor skills getting a spoon into their mouth, what are you going to do? Are disabled people to likewise be banned from disrupting your “dining experience”? Obnoxious people? People with tattoos? Tourettes?
It makes me laugh that some people commenting here say that parents with children who make noise are an example of our individualistic society, whilesoever saying they should be locked up at home because *you* can’t drink your tea and read your paper in peace. Why go into public if you can’t handle… people?
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My five yr old is a cafe queen, she knows how she has to behave and she does it. If she did not tow the line, we would not go to cafe’s -simple. If parents think they have the right to make everyone sit through their little darling’s shitty behaviour, then they will soon find a lack of social interaction for themselves and their kids. Since when did parenting involve not laying down any rules?? Pathetic.
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I have three kids of my own and I know they are not the quietest kids on the block .
Before I had kids , I loathed my meal , shopping experience, cinema outing or whatever being spoiled by noisy out of control kids . A young baby crying however didn’t register .
And now I have 3 of my own [10g ,8g ,6b] guess what ?
I still don’t like having noisy out of control kids in my face or space .
If one is paying hard earned $$ for a nice meal out , you don’t want the experience ruined by someone’s noisy brats who can’t behave in public or their parents won’t/can’t control them .
My kids are not saints either , so I don’t inflict them on other people in such situations and expect everyone to look at them fondly and marvel at them for being such lively little tykes .
If we can’t find someone to look after them which is often the case , then we either stay home , go to a kid friendly place or picnic somewhere outdoors.
As to the cases mentioned in the article , well I can sort of see where the restaurants are coming from but I think charging for babies that are not eating solids yet is a bit rich.
On the other hand I been to buffets and such and seen parents not pay for prechoolers to eat and then seen them load up the bread and butter plate full of goodies for them . Now it might not sound like much – little kids can’t consume huge amounts at one time but the overall quantity of food will start to add up if several parents or more do this over the course of a week/month.
And then there is the extra cleaning /clearing up – littlies are not the tidiest of eaters but someone has to be paid to clear up after a child who has not paid for their meal.
Of the two options I reckon banning the kids altogether and well publicising the fact is the way to go. Diners would know where they could go to enjoy a meal in peace and parents would know not to even bother .
There are some people who would pay the 3 pound surcharge without a blink and then continue to let their little shites run amok because they have paid for the priviledge to let them do so.
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Im glad to see someone else use the word inflicted about taking there kids out to places, I have had some very strange looks when I have said I don’t want to inflict my kids on the general public. I have only taken any of them out to places when I felt that they could behave in an appropriate manner fitting the venue. I never want people to be saying thank god she has taken those kids away after I have left or cringe at the thought of seeing them again. Mind you our 3 year old is putinfg all of that to the test!
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I certainly believe there is a difference between children “making a noise” and children treating cafes and restaurants as a playground. There is nothing more frustrating then parents who appear to be allowing their children to run around making incessant noise. Teaching children to be able to conduct themselves appropriately in public is a part of parenting and by no means am I implying that it is easy, but it is your job as a parent. I am unsure the situation Clementine Ford is referring to, but can certainly sympathise with her.
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Sure restaurants can charge extra for children (provided they fully disclose this in advance of seating someone with a child) or even ban children altogether if they want…and I can go to them or not if I want…when I’m with my little boy, this might change my choice but that’s fair enough – I really don’t see what’s wrong with these policies.
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I hate the ‘seen but not heard’ phrase. Hate it. Kids are kids, sometimes they’re loud and obnoxious, what can you do? Well, you can choose to go somewhere more suitable, for a start. And by suitable, I mean for the kids as well as the adult patrons.
Use your discretion.
If a place is either full of people quietly reading the paper in the morning or couples have romantic date nights, it’s probably not the best idea to bring your easily bored toddler (I know! Lets bash the cutlery against the metal table legs, kids!) or teething baby along.
I have lots of friends with kids and we know where we’re welcome with them and where the kids will also be catered for when we catch up. A good measure is how loud the place already is with large chatty groups & families or if there are kids options on the menu.
Might not always be my favourite place in the world, but it’s not all about me, is it?
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For us, it’s a treat to go out for coffee or a meal.
I hate it when my excursion is ruined by a parent who feels it is their ‘right’ to let the kids run amok and disturb other patrons.
I have no problem with restaurant managers who insist that patrons are peaceful and well-mannered.
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I like the cloth napkin rule that someone else mentioned. If there’s a cloth napkin on the table and you needed two weeks in advance to make a successful reservation, than perhaps you should have someone babysit.
BUT, there are situations where the babysitting option is not always on the table, so to speak. I’m a single mum with a 4 year old girl and quite often, the two of us have meals at cafes and restaurants. I call them our mummy-daughter dates.
Nothing too fancy because the budget is tight. I don’t have access to family to be able to babysit for me, so she goes where I go, but of course am mindful of her bedtime and leave as early as possible on the rare occasion when it’s dinner. She is responsible for her own entertainment if she gets bored, and packs a bag with her ipad and colouring pencils. The end result seems to be a seasoned diner. She’s been to heaps of places, tried different food (sashimi for the first time recently) and I believe has benefited from the experience. On my birthday dinner this year at a local Japanese tapas joint, I was beaming to see her use chopsticks for the first time. I think a little planning goes a long way: ground rules, repercussions, taking a walk outside when needed and rewards (dessert!) help too.
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Money can’t be that tight if your 4 year old daughter has an iPad..
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I don’t think the point of Googlers comments were around money, rather she sounds like she’s doing a great job teaching her 4 year old how to act in restaurants and cafes. Nevertheless, the ipad could have been a gift and it doesn’t really matter how her daughter received it.
When we were growing up we went to family friendly places and never went to any fine dining places until out of high school with friends. We practiced our table manners at home which helped us when we went out.
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Don’t like kids in restaurants! Shut em up or keep em home!
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love your name!
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I have a two year old son and before I had him I used to become quite irritated when children were in adult places (cafes, restaurants etc). And you know what, that hasn’t changed. Parents have choices: take your kids to places where their normal kid behaviour is tolerated (Maccas, playgrounds) OR go to adult places without your children OR just control them. Bribery works well for me. But I know that if I am out at a cafe no one wants to hear my kid’s bored noises. Deal with it parents, stop being selfish and acting entitled just because you have a kid.
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Before I have my little boy, I used to get annoyed at kids “misbehaving” in restaurants, cafes, on the planes etc. I used to wonder why some parents seem to be unable to control their kids. Now being a mum to a 2-year-old, I now realise that sometimes no matter what you do, you just can’t keep them under control!! My 2 year old sometimes can be an angel when we are out dining but most of the time, he does my head in!!!! I tried to stop him from running around, screaming and doing all sorts of annoying things to other diners but all to no avail sometimes. So, it’s not what I do or don’t do to him as they make no difference to his behaviour!!! I used to feel bad for other people and I stopped going out to cafes and restaurants with him for a while. But then I realised, why do I have to do that?? My son has a right to be out in public places! Others should change their attitude towards kids in public and be more acceptable. Whether you are a parent or not, try to understand that sometimes kids are unpredictable. They are just doing kids stuff which sometimes come across as being annoying for us adults.
Anyway, just want to mention that we are now living in Jakarta and we are so amazed by how child-friendly this city is compared to other big metropolis!!! Australia can learn a lot from this place. Kids are welcomed in almost everywhere. Lots of facilities for kids and lots of kids friendly restaurant around. We went out to a nice Italian restaurant for dinner on Valentine’s Day and had to bring our son as we haven’t got a babysitter. We thought we would be rejected by the restaurant but surprise surprise, they welcomed us with big smiles!!! I kept apologising when my son decided to do laps in the restaurant but the waiters/waitresses kept asking me not to worry. And there were other couples having their romantic dinner but we didn’t get any nasty glare from anyone!! I’ll definitely miss the child-friendliness of this city when we are back in Australia!
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I have children. It was my choice to have them.
I also respect the rights of others, so while my kids were small and exhibited pesky, annoying behaviours, we didn’t go out to restaurants.
I taught them table manners at home, so when they had the maturity to sit still in a restricted space, they knew what to do.
Yes, my kids had every right to be out in public, but I’m afraid I can’t agree that a child has a right to make someone else miserable or angry.
It’s great you’ve found the restaurant culture in Jakarta is child-friendly. Try France. Kids there are taught to be well-mannered.
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I definitely agree that kids need to be taught good manners (no matter where or when). I also agree that not all places are for kids. I definitely are not saying that I’ll let my kids run amok just because they have a right to be out in public. I guess what I’m trying to say is I think the cafe culture in Australia and many other countries are not very kids friendly in comparison to some. There should be more kids friendly cafes/ restaurants in Australia so that parents with kids can go there without worrying about annoying the hell out of everyone there who think we purposely take our kids out to cause annoyance. Are we supposed to lock ourselves at home for those of us who have kids because our kids annoy others in public??
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Found the same thing with my son in Vietnam. Half the time the waiters/waitresses would take my then one year old son in their arms and still take customer orders – can’t imagine that happening anywhere in Australia! Even on the plane in Vietnam people were overwhelmingly friendly – my son had a mild head cold on one of our flights so was crying while the plane started landing, and instead of receiving a dozen glares from neighbouring passengers, I had a crowd of concerned people all around us doing their best to try and cheer him up, I couldn’t believe it!
Most of the western world has lost that sense of ‘it takes a village’ – instead of embracing our neighbours as extended family, we’re very introverted and only concerned with ourselves and our own happiness. While folks in Asian countries have westernised to a certain extent, they thankfully haven’t ‘westernised’ their attitudes towards having children around – most still treat them as a joy and cause for happiness and big smiles.
I’m generalising, of course, but we’ve been to Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and Malaysia, and people have unfailingly gone out of their way to make my son and I comfortable instead of making me feel like a pariah for having him with me.
… having said that, in Australia I wouldn’t dream of bringing my son to a fancy restaurant, and I don’t believe children belong in such venues (here), out of respect for other diners.
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I hear what you are saying but as I see it ; my kid’s rights to be able to run around and express themselves or whatever the current PC term is, ends, where the next person’s right to sit in peace and not be annoyed , begins.
And that applies to home , school , shopping , dining , picnics , cinema , where-ever. !
Perhaps it’s a very old fashioned notion trying to teach children to be considerate of other people feelings ; I’m not saying that I have 100% succeeded yet but I’m full time trying .
This little planet is starting to get very crowded with more and more people are living right on top of each other and rather than people being more considerate of others , they are actually less tolerant .
Makes me wonder where we are all heading as a species ; I can’t help comparing with studies of lemming colonies as overcrowding occurs …..
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Is no one as annoyed as me at Samantha Maiden’s comment “can you cut out and keep for when you have kids?” I’m so sick of people telling me I’ll “change my mind” when I have kids. And when I tell people children aren’t in my life plan I’m constantly told I’ll “change my mind” when I’m a little older. Just because you don’t have kids doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to an opinion on a situation where they affect you.
I’m pro child free restaurants – people should have an option. I may not be a mother, but I am an aunt and I wouldn’t take my niece (age 2) to a ‘nice’ restaurant but rather choose one that was family orientated.
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Caris, I was exactly like you before I had children, and you know what? I’m exactly the same after. I didn’t change my thinking regarding my “angels” because I don’t kid myself that everyone loves them like I do. Heck, to be honest, they annoy the pants off even me sometimes!
I despise people who say “you’ll change your mind”. Why SHOULD you change? Your beliefs are your beliefs, before AND after having children!
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Urgh. I know exactly what you mean. And the smug, patronising way that they say it with a “knowing” smile on their face. Not everyone wants to be a breeder!!!
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I agree Caris. When I did have children I made a point of trying hard to remember how I felt about kids and their behaviour before I had children. I think this has helped me to view my children realistically and accept that others wont think they are cute and wonderful all the time and to appreciate there are times when their presence isnt appropriate or welcome. Parents who arrogantly expect their children to be adored and welcomed at all occassions are usually the rose coloured glasses parents who dont see how badly behaved their children actually are. My SIL and BIL are very much like this, their kids are dragged everywhere at night with them, whether invited or not because they expect them to go and be welcome. Unfortunately it often doesnt go down very well because they are so badly behaved, probably because they are tired and should be asleep….but if they are so arrogant not to realise their kids arent welcome, they wont see how badly they behave and how much they are irritating other people either.
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Caris, you’re right to be irritated by others who think they know your own wishes better than you.
I have two children and I knew my kids well enough to sense when they weren’t going to behave. Was I silly enough to make my life hell by walking into a cafe? Nope. Why would I impose tight space restrictions and expect superlative behaviour from a child who was ‘off’? Is it for the child’s benefit? (If so, tell me what he/she is learning.) Or because I, the adult, couldn’t be seen to lose face and cancel a morning tea?
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That’s fair enough too Caris. I was very anti -kid in my twenties [ in fact anti all other human beings if it really came down to it ] .
That didn’t change till I was in my 30′s and met a chap who I eventually married . Even tho one day I found myself pregnant with triplets , I didn’t feel particularly maternal [unless it was a four legged critter in need ] . No one was more dumfounded than me when those feeling kicked the day I watched a nurse roughly handle my surviving little prem bub. I grew fangs and talons and witchie-poo hair in a split second just like you see happen in the cartoons .
Sounds a bit strange 15 years later but honestly I was ready to rend this woman limb from limb at the time.
Sadly this little un joined her sisters eventually but she left me a great humanising legacy.
It may or may not ever happen for you Caris , but if it does I’ll bet you’ll get as big a shock as I did back then.
Back in the present day and age , much as I love the three that I have with my new hubby ; I don’t expect everyone else to and I don’t inflict them on the wider world in situations where they may make life a misery for those around.
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What about people who turn up to adults only functions or dinners with their child? We went out for dinner with another couple, and had our kids babysat. It was a little annoying to turn up and find their child in a high chair at the table joining us! It didnt occur to them that their child wasnt included. It would have never occured to us that our kids were to be included for an 8pm dinner at a nice restaurant.
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We have a strategy we use before entering any cafe/restaurant/church/library (the list goes on!)…..find a space outside where they can run & make noise for a few minutes. Then we stand at the door & literally get them to “shake, shake, shake the sillies out”. Always gets a giggle, but works a treat.
Take a deep breath & in we go. From the second we enter the premises they know that Mum expects (& mostly gets): Good Behaviour.
That, & always, always bring colouring in things….& the miracle of the iPhone has made the entire dining out experience so much more pleasant
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noooo… children needs tactile things, not more screen time!
we’re going to end up with a whole raft of children who are even more glued to their little screens than the current one~
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Lisa,
I actually found your comment to be a little judgmental. Whilst I agree in theory with what you are saying about screen time, my kids had the misfortune to be born to parents who only own one TV. No iPad, Wii, Nintendo or any other type of gaming console.
Screen time for them is limited to the occasional DVD or ABC 4 Kids. A play on the iPhone is a real treat & if it means they will sit still for 15 mins while Mum enjoys a hot coffee in her favourite cafe then I stand by my earlier assertion that the iPhone is nothing short of miraculous
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My 2 boys spend hours and hours outside every day climbing trees, playing with nature and toys and each other. When we want to go to a cafe for breakfast or whatever we take play dough or small train sets or sticker books or Lego. Because they’re so active they sometimes need some down time. I like to think the games or movies on the iPhone or iPad are those down times, plus it helps me enjoy my coffee in peace.
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There’s a difference when a child is acting like a child and when a child is acting up. I don’t get angry when kids cry or are loud, but if they’re running around a restaurant/cafe like they are at the playground then I expect the parents to step in and calm them down.
Maybe these cafes/reastaurants should just supply paper and crayons for the kiddies? Seems to keep my step daughter amused when she’s waiting for her meal. Plus, I’d rather see kids drawing than playing on their parents smartphones like I did the other night out at dinner. Four little kids in a row sitting completely silent, eyes glued to the small glow of the iPhone like zombies. They were acting like adults, which to me was more disturbing than a bit of noise.
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i 100% agree – as an Occupational Therapist i hate to imagine the poor motor skills those children are going to have… and the age at which they’ll start wanting their very own iphone!
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as I commented above – unless you see the same children repeatedly, how do you know this isn’t the once in a blue moon treat for the parents, to have a peacedul dinner out if they can’t get/afford a babysitter?!
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Agreed. We have one TV in our house, I have my laptop and a mobile phone that is five years old (… no internet or even games on it), and we’ve got a portable DVD player that is brought out for two occasions: when I’m invited out for dinner with friends and can’t get a sitter, and when we’re flying. Even then, I only bring it out at the last possible moment, when nothing else is getting his attention.
Meanwhile, lose-lose situation for parents. You go out to a reasonably informal cafe with your kids, and you cop a heap of passive aggressive crap because your child starts to have a loud giggle over something. So you bust out the portable dvd player or other electronic item, and then you cop more passive aggressive crap from people who don’t believe kids should be having screen time. Shut up already.
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Alexandra,
here in Perth there is a chain of cafes called Dome. As well as a kid-friendly menu they also supply colouring pencils & colouring sheets free of charge. I absolutely love them, purely for this reason
.
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I am a parent and I have always expected my kids to behave when out. My children are older now but I used to be extremely concious of any excessive noise my children were making. I used to carry books or colouring books and pencils or for my younger child an ipod. Children need some exposure to opportunities to practice behaving quietly and display courtesy to others and learning to wait and trips to coffee shops allow them to learn how to behave in these circumstances. Yes there were times when I was cranky and embarrassed by my children’s behaviour and they were reprimanded for it. Thankfully, there were other times when people would actually come up to me and commend the lovely behaviour of my children and boy did this make me feel good.
I am sympathetic to other diners it can ruin an evening if a child is screaming or running amok; however, it can be equally annoying listening to some obnoxious loud talker or mobile phone user or having to be bombarded by offensive music videos (see Mia’s post of a couple of weeks ago) so fair is fair if you ban the kids what about the poorly behaved adults??
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OK, let me say straight up, that I have no issue at all with parents taking their children to restaurants/cafes. In fact, I encourage it. What a great opportunity for kids to be able to practice table manners, social ettiquettes, etc… in public.
However, I do have a problem with parents who seem to forget that they are in public. When I’m eating, please don’t change your childs nappy at the table – their are bathrooms, please use them. If a child is distressed, perhaps take the child out of the situation for a moment, calm them down, then bring them back to the table. If you’re child is running around, tell them to sit down, and make sure they do it.
I know I’m going to get shot down in flames, but parents need to be responsible for their children and their children’s behaviour. When I was a child, we were often taken to restaurants, and if we misbehaved, their was hell to pay. There are rules, and quite simply, children need to know them and follow them.
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I’m not shooting you down. this all makes 100% sense. Rules and etiquette need to be taught at a young age, and in the social situation.
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I agree with you 100%.
When out in public spaces, it’s not necessarily the child acting up that can ruin the experience (child can act up for a variety of reasons), it’s the lack of response by parents to the situation and allowing it to continue and escalate. Like you say, taking children out to places is a great opportunity for kids to learn manners and social etiquette.
Every experience where there has been a major disturbance is where children have been acting up in some way, their parents have ignored their behaviour and then suddenly something happens (say, they pull my plate off the table/they knock over a waiter carrying something/they throw something and it hits another patron). If the parent had taken appropriate action beforehand by setting some boundaries/enforcing table manners/taking their child out of the situation for a discussion and/or to calm them down then I wouldn’t have minded and we wouldn’t all be put out. The worst is when you’re made to feel that you have to apologise for the fact that their child has done something like throw something at you or you’re a kid hater.
I hope when I have children I behave in the way my mother behaved and hold them accountable for their behaviour. We had very strong boundaries when we were out in public (never interrupting adults speaking & patiently waiting before we could ask for her attention, no yelling or screaming unless we were playing and away from adults, appropriate table manners etc). My mum instilled manners that have carried through to my adult life. Plus the other benefit was that because we were well behaved children, as a single mum she was always invited to things knowing that she could bring us and be invited back. In fact there were a few awkward times when friends of mum’s said that we were the only children invited because we were well behaved.
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My children are both adults now but we found the best time to eat out as a family was for breakfast. The kids were not grumpy and tired after a long day, too early for singles who sleep in until lunchtime and plenty of things on the menu that kids enjoy. This way they learnt to eat out and sit at the table.
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A very good idea.
A lot of bad behaviour at other meal times can possibly be from a tired child that should be in bed for a nap or an early night for older kids.
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When my niece lived with us (on & off between the ages of 4 & 7) we always took her to restaraunts with us. The trick is to keep them occupied. She always carried her own handbag with a notepad & pens, her ds, etc.
She also knew that we didn’t tolerate bad behavior and if she misbehaved we would all go straight home for Vegemite on toast….
I think it largely depends on the restaraunts too, you can’t really expect a kid free meal at hogs breath or the local tavern….
cloth napkins generally say to me ‘kid free zone’ Lol
Oh and I have a 12 week old baby now and eat out regularly however if he is having a bad day we give it a miss, no point in making everyone else suffer through that torture!!!
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I was brought up knowing how to behave in a restaurant from a young age and so have my children. A family member, on the other hand, who was brought up in the same manner, allows their children to virtually run amok in social settings. Mind you, they behave in the same unruly manner at home as well, without any reprimand from the parents.
It is absolutely down to the parents and whilst I totally DISAGREE with the surcharge for a baby (I am embarassed to be British with that one) I do agree with the 2nd case study as they are not being anti-child – just anti-bad parenting.
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I don’t have kids myself, however I think the idea of certain restaurants banning children isn’t a bad idea. If adults are paying a large amount of money for a nice dinner out, then they shouldn’t have to be disturbed by noisy/fighting/crying children. The worst is when kids run amok and the parents don’t do anything about it.
I was having a drink with my boyfriend this evening in a beer garden and there were some kids squealing (just playing, being normal kids) but luckily the parents distracted them with some pencils/paper.
I love children, but I just think some fancy places aren’t all that kid friendly- there’s a time and place.
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Agree and I am a parent! Listening to a baby scream totally ruined my very expensive anniversary dinner at Jellyfish and my bottle of Moët!!!!!!
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Oh me too, if I am going somewhere really nice I sure as hell won’t be taking my kids!
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Just as a little side note for parents wanting to teach their children restaurant behaviour/skills, I recommend starting it at home. When I was growing up, we didn’t eat out very often because money was tight, and well it was too difficult with 4 children, 2 of whom were both preschool age. There’d always be an incident of some type, that would leave my poor Dad in particular cringing… my little sister once vomited in to her plate after her meal in a chinese restaurant. :/
But I can remember every so often mum cooking fancy things and we brought out the nice tablecloth and set the good dining table with the good silver cutlery and linen napkins (learning how to set the table) and drank orange juice out of wine glasses (orange wind, my little sisters called it) and pretended we were eating at a restaurant. It was cheaper and much less stressful than eating out and we loved it. The bonus was that as we got older and started taking an interest in cooking, every once in a blue moon we’d plan a three course meal and Mum and Dad would pay for the groceries and then we’d do the cooking and she got a night off. And if your kids are enthusiastic and enjoy it, you can make up menus with prices and have a pretend cashier. Kids just love this role play, they learn the same skills, and you don’t have to worry about spillages or younger children deciding they’ve had enough and going to watch tv, or paying exorbant restaurant prices, or watching your kids spit out food, or throwing up into their plates hahaha. WIN WIN
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GREAT IDEA!!!! So writing this one down for my to-do list when i have kids.
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No one answered my question! Who is Clementine Ford???!
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Writer, feminist, multi-talented media woman, one of my favourite, most interesting people I follow on Twitter.
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Thank you Rick
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Thanks for the info! I thought she must have been special, her use of language was superb, her comment stood out!
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My understanding is that in countries like Spain, children are taken to any and all restaurants (well, perhaps not El Bulli!) at very late hours (I’m led to believe by friends who lived there that 11pm is early eating hour). Perhaps their cultural focus on including children makes this more acceptable?
Wwe don’t take our kids out very often (in fact I could probably count on my fingers the number of times) because their dinner time etiquette is loud, messy, fidgety, unpredictable and i dont want to spend my time nagging them to the point where none of us actuallly enjoy the experience! Recently I was advised that an average 3yo should be expected to sustain maybe 10-15minutes concentration at mealtimes…….well, that would barely covering ordering in a restaurant! But…..others do, and I’ve seen families with many kids enjoying meals and thought it looked rather beautiful, and indeed I look forward to the day when put trivalent is a bit older, less unpredictable, loud and messy and we can enjoy those experiences as well.
Until then – you who do go out, I say enjoy yourselves. It’s honestly not the end of my eating out world if your kids are noisy etc.
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It’s funny – when I was waitressing at a restaurant, the majority of kids and parents were fine. They’d bring something to entertain their kids (let me tell you, portable dvd players are a godsend) and if babies started crying, their parents would take them outside until they calmed down.
Then I worked at a cafe and it was completely different. Parents would come in and order food and coffee for themselves, but nothing for their kids. They’d let their kids spread out across several tables during the lunch rush when other people couldn’t find a table. They wouldn’t bring anything to keep the kids entertained. When you’re carrying scalding coffee, you don’t want to be dodging kids running around.
I agree with the last quote – so many parents turn a blind eye to their kids behaving like well, kids in restaurants and cafes, especially when they’re having a coffee with friends. If parents are looking to catch up with friends over a coffee when their kids are in tow, I would heartily recommend getting your cake and coffee to take away so you can go to the local park and let the kids run wild without having to worry.
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I love the idea of certain restaurants banning kids, and I have two kids of my own.
There’s nothing worse than going out for a well-earned date night with my husband and having squawking/bickering/obnoxious kids next to us. Kids are great, but there also needs to be (realistic) times and places where we can seek sanctuary from them if we so desire.
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There’s nothing wrong with bringing your kids to a cafe or casual restaurant.
There is something very wrong with refusing to take them outside/out of hearing when those inevitable moments happen when they are wailing/sreaming etc. and cannot be calmed down within a minute or so.
It’s just plain damned rude. If your child is upset or naughty and making enough noise or distraction to bother others, get off your butt and take them outside til they are calm!!! Yes, your coffee will probably go cold, as will your meal, but at least you won’t be the indulgent, self-centred, lazy, rude individual who ruined dozens of other peoples day out (including those Mums on a rare “me time trip”).
Yes, I have taken my daughter to lots of cafes and restaurants, and tried to teach her appropriate manners at the appropriate age. I have also dragged her kicking and screaming out of a cafe, abandoning my meal if need be, to take her outside and calm her down or just go home if it’s a major meltdown. She learned quickly that bad behaviour won’t be tolerated, and really bad behaviour means no more fun and going home.
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I’ve never had to deal with this on a personal level as I’ve never been able to afford to take my sons to restaurants – being a single parent and all.
But honestly, kids screaming in a public place doesn’t bother me. I don’t have to pacify them or deal with other people’s glares and stares. They’re not my kids. I just truly feel sorry for parents/carers in these situations. It’s enough that your kid is upset but the wrath of people surrounding you just makes it worse.
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We take our children out for dinner fairly regularly- but it’s always early and always to your cheap’n cheerful local. And the rules are- if you want to come out for dinner like grown ups you stay in your seat like grown ups. I wouldn’t waste my money or precious post 8pm time on an expensive grown up restaurant outing for the kids. This is definite “us/me” time….I am intrigued though…. I don’t recall EVER ( that’s pre and post kids and both here and while living overseas) having sighted kids at a 5 star restaurant ????? Has anyone else….I mean REALLY???
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There seems to be this overwhelming comment that people have a ‘right” to go out/ use the restaurant to teach their children the correct behaviour/ we should “share” in the parenting of children.
I had 4 children, my children did go out to eat, BUT i always emphasized that other people have a RIGHT to enjoy their time out as well. If i couldn’t count on a child behaving then we either didn’t go, or that child was left with a babysitter.
Consideration means that my good night shouldn’t interfere with anyone else’s life.
I have been known to take a misbehaving child home before the end of the meal, and yes one of my children was ADHD.
Parents, your job is to socialize your child, but how hard is it to take something for them to do while out!!!!!
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I wonder if some people are confusing ‘right’ with ‘legal right’. Yes, you have a legal right to take your kid pretty much anywhere you like. Do you have a moral right though? We all have ‘rights’ but then there is the ‘done thing’ and what is generally acceptable to the rest of the population. Some places are not for kids – fine dining is one of them that springs to mind.
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I work with young children and I love them. However I think both parents and non parents just need to exercise a bit of common sense and courtesy. If you are non-parent and want a quiet meal, don’t choose a family restaurant or cafe and if it dinner, dine later. Most parents won’t take their children out for dinner late when they should be in bed. Minimise the possibility of screaming children. By the same token, parents really should think twice about taking small children to a 4 or 5 star restaurant. Yep, jump up and down all you want. But everyone in those restaurants is paying a lot of money for top service and it is not likely to have facilities for children nor is it likely to be as relaxed as a family restaurant. And lets be honest, as a parent if you are going to pay for a fancy meal, why would you want your own screaming children ruining your dinner? Also, most people don’t have a problem with children talking loudly or giggling or just being kids while they are dining, but that doesn’t mean parents should ignore them when they are running around getting into everything. They are not in a playground. They are somewhere where there can be hazards around or they can create hazards. Show that you are doing your best to control your children. If you don’t want to discipline them or you’ve had enough with them that day because they are being turds (all kids are sometimes, even the ones we love) then please take them outside and talk to them or take them home. I’m sure when your children are behaving really poorly, dining out is not a good experience for you anyway. And by removing them from the situation you teach them that they don’t get treats if they make bad behavioural choices.
Non parents are not ogres generally. When we see a frazzled parent doing their best, apologising for their childrens behaviour and generally trying to not make a scene any worse, we feel empathy. Or sympathy. But we don’t feel those things when parents are choosing not to discipline their children at all when they are going absolutely feral, or when they are in a fancy restaurant at 8.30pm when their screaming child should be in bed. Common sense is all it takes.
And non parents…. have some patience. Sometimes ignoring your child is all the energy you have left at that moment it time.
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I don’t see a lot of kids at my work so maybe I’m more tolerant but they don’t bother me. It’s pretty simple – if they throw a major tantrum, take them outside. And no running around, at all. People with trays and plates are around. Bringing something for them to do is good – colouring, books. I once saw kids with personal DVD players at the table and thought that a bit much, but your kids your choice.
Taking your kids out to dinner and teaching them how to be good customers is important. Perhaps the clueless adults I serve never ate out…? Teach your kids:
- How to order: when you are ready, close your menu, that way I know. Then generally everyone in turn orders with me. Saying to your friend ‘I was thinking of the spaghetti’ and then saying nothing more to me does not constitute an order. Speak to me. Not your friends.
- When the food comes, pay attention. Some restaurants do covers, so they know who is having what, some don’t. Plates can be heavy or hot, to stand their repeatedly saying ‘fish and chips’ while you talk to the person next to you, or play with your phone, will one day result in something being dropped on you’.
- When you are done, the knife and fork go neatly together so I know to take your plate. It shocks me how many adults don’t do this.
- Keep your phone/electronics OFF the table at all times is recommended. Things can spill and I don’t want to be responsible for beer on your iphone because you are so addicted to it it cannot go in your bag for a bit.
Kids eating out is good, they need to learn things so they don’t embarrass themselves when eating out with their work one day. Just be sensible, pick your time, teach your kid manners. I understand some people want something better than Hog’s Breath but there has to be a middle ground between that and disrupting the people who have saved up for that swish French place. Don’t be a jerk.
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You rock. I worked in hospitality for a decade and I thoroughly second everything you said!
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Agreed!
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Here freakin here!!!
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I think you mean hear hear! Not here here…..
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Nope I stand by my choice and I choose to mean here at my work place do these things please plus adding your meaning on top thank you very much
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Argh so many of my friends don’t pay attention when the food arrives, it drives me nuts! SO rude.
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Well said !
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We frequently go out to cafe’s & family restaurants with our 3 kids, who are all under 4. But we go for breakfast, brunch or lunch, because honestly I don’t want to be with my own kids at dinner time when they are cranky.
Also maybe cafe’s and restaurants should be charging all those obnoxious adults who are always talking very loudly on their phones!
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Wow. Lots of people would like my kids banned from restaurants and to only bring them back when they know how to “properly” behave. Where, pray tell, are they going to learn to behave in a restaurant, if I can’t take them to one??
My 7yo wants to learn to use chopsticks. My local Chinese restaurant is happy to teach her and my 4yo twin boys. Not a playground in sight. It is going to get loud and messy. The owner loves kids. She has no issue with kids in her restaurant, and they enjoy going.
I have taken them to all sorts of restaurants. They are loud, they do run around, but they listen to me and settle down when asked.
They have learned to behave by being at these places. They have been told to be little kids at home, best behaved kids in the shops, restaurants and cafes. I am a separated dad. No partner to help me, so the kids don’t want to upset me. Going out is a treat, why would they muck it up?
Perhaps the people who chose not to have kids could consider that I did. I really enjoy helping them find out about the world, about different foods, cultures, experiences, and, along the way, attitudes.
If one steps out of line, most of the time their siblings pull them up. They don’t get much time with me, so when they do it is like father’s day- with a dinner, dessert and DVD at home.
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I agree that kids learn how to behave in restaurants by being taken to restaurants but it’s about graduated exposure.
Would you teach your kid to drive on a motorway at 100km/h? No, of course you wouldn’t. You’d practise in the driveway, then maybe an empty parking lot or side street. It’s the same thing with restaurants. Why would someone take their child to a 5 star restaurant to teach them how to behave? Let them prove themselves in McDonald’s first, then maybe try the local yum cha place (usually pretty noisy anyway, in my experience!) or another type of casual, sit-down place and then try somewhere fancier.
I have zero objection to children in restaurants, as long as they know how to behave themselves. In a fancy place, where you’re paying for the food as well as the experience, any children who enter should have their restaurant skills down pat beforehand.
If your kids behave themselves and do what you ask them to do when you take them out to eat, then it doesn’t really sound like you’re the kind of parent most here are complaining about.
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I don’t think that children should be banned from restaurants but I think it might be a good idea if they have time restrictions for families with young kids. It really annoys me when I’m in a restaurant and it’s after 9:00 pm and there are young kids running around, they should be at home & in bed. I have 2 teenage sons who were regularly taken out to restaurants as toddlers, but it was always for an early dinner and if they did start misbehaving we simply left ASAP.
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I have young kids myself and find no fault with some restaurants banning kids. I think if people are paying a large sum at a nice restaurant they have a right to enjoy their night out without the potential of screaming/irritable kids. However I think other restaurants charging parents for bringing their kids out in the first place is just ridiculous.
I have a lot of patience and sympathy for parents with crying or misbehaving kids when I’m out, as long as they are doing something to try and rectify the situation. I think with the owners of the restaurant that banned the kids, it was probably a case of one too many parents that didn’t care enough to do anything about the misbehavior.
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I have no problem at all with restaurants or cares levying a “child charge”, so long as it is made clear in advance. I expect to know if I have to pay corkage fees (and how much they are) upfront so I would expect the same if there is a charge for my children (whether or not they are well-behaved).
But then I do expect that if a restaurant or cafe allows children, that I am welcome to bring mine along! Some children might be badly behaved, but so are many adults! I’ve had more meals ruined by adults bad behaviour than children’s: drunks at the table; full-on domestics in cares; constant mobile phones ringing and people taking work calls at dinner (and yelling to be overheard). All much worse!
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I can comment from both sides of this issue. I have worked in many cafes and restaurants (some finr dining) and can definitely see the issue with having children there. BUT…mostly it is the parents that let the kids run wild and scream. Most kids will sit there and behave, but there is always going to be THAT KID that runs around the restaurant screaming, touching stuff and getting in the way. That is the main issue, especially to the staff, it is dangerous for a child to be running around in a place that has sharp knives, hot food and glass. What also used to get to me is the parents that let their children make a god damn mess and not even attempt to clean it up. Oh no that is the waiter’s job to clean up after their kids. So….I can understand why they would want to ban kids from their restaurant. The charge for them is just absurd.
Now from the point of view of being a mother. I want to be able to take my children with me to eat out. I have taught them from when they are babies how to behave. If they started to cry or misbehave we simply went outside until they had calmed down. My eldest has ADHD and can be a right royal little shit sometimes but even he has learnt how he is expected to behave. I wish other parents would do the same. And yes I clean up after my kids after a meal…..it is NOT the waiters job to clean up a mess like that.
Really it all comes down to the parents. Think about how you would expect a guest to behave in your home and use that to guide you. If a guest brought their kids to your place and they ran around screaming and making a mess, I bet you would think twice about asking them over again.
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Do you think the leaving the mess thing is filtering through from food courts and fast food places? We were taught to clean up after ourselves, ie take your tray and empty it into the bin, put the tray in the tray spot. But it now seems to be much more acceptable to leave all your leftovers and rubbish on the table. Why? When did it change from being bad manners to do that? The bins are all still there, and you will usually need to pass one to go on your way. I don’t understand it.
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I have 3 kids so I understand all about screaming and carrying on.
But when I go to a cafe, to a restaurant, to the cinemas, anywhere that I’m expecting to enjoy myself and paying for the privilege to do that (otherwise I’d just stay at home) I DO NOT want to hear screaming, carrying-on kids. Not mine, not yours, not anybodies.
I fully support businesses advertising whether they welcome young children or they don’t, so we can all make a choice.
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There is a difference between a toddler having a tantrum and kids who are out of control. It is the latter who force businesses to impose a ban. There is a time and a place for kids to run around and it is not usually inside a restaurant. Talk about Occupational, Health and Safety Issues!
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LOL!
Surely it’s all about common sense – and courtesy…oh yes a little tolerance would go a long way towards these kind of problems. You don’t let young kids run around a cafe and annoy other people/ get burnt by coffee coming out, but they are also part of the community and will, at times, gulp, act like children!
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I don’t think it is the children acting like a kid that is the problem i think it is the parents not controlling their children. Our job is to socialize children.
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Kate’s that was my point. Parents must do their best to ensure good behaviour in their kids when they are in public – and – other patrons might need to show some tolerance if the kid slips up. I wouldn’t take a toddler to a fancy restaurants but my six year can now sit quietly and eat out and be quite civilised (ok in the knowledge that if she is not behaving nicely we will have to leave as there are certain expect ions when we go out). If a behaviour was disturbing others, i would always beat a hasty exit. I don’t think kids have cornered the market on inconsiderate behaviour in cafes. I was trying to have a quiet coffee with a friend recently and a young woman made a constant stream of calls practically yelling at the top of her voice the entire time. Rude? Hell yes. But it seems common courtesy and being aware that we are sharing this universe with others is lost on many!
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I have 3 children 6 and under and sometimes I want to go for dinner where kids are not welcome. I’m so fine with that and I’m so fine in taking my children to restaurants who have a welcome policy for children then everyone knows what the deal is.
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As a childless 20-something I can’t comment on how challenging it must be to have a child throw a tantrum in public! I think we need to remember to not judge each other, especially if the parent is attempting to calm the child but they keep crying/shouting.
I used to work in a toy store and it would bother me when parents let their kids run wild and break things, open up board games etc and not tell them off. However crying or throwing a tantrum is different I think.. I remember throwing some doozies as a toddler! (poor Mum..x)
Another important thing to remember is that the crying/yelling child in your restaurant may have a disability. These families have every right to enjoy a night out!!