The sound you just heard is an ugly can of worms being opened by UK Vogue editor Alexandra Shulman who has written a very honest, candid and rather extraordinary piece for the UK Daily Mail.
The short version is that she thinks, as an employer, that things have gone too far. The pendulum (in the UK at least) has swung too far in favour of working mothers at the expense of employers and other employees without kids.
After recent legislation in the UK that supports women (and men) wanting to negotiate more flexible hours, maternity leave, job sharing and part-time work, Shulman has come out on behalf of employers to say IT’S JUST TOO HARD to employ women and either they need to harden the fuck up and just get back to their normal full-time jobs after having babies or just stay home and be done with it.
She also says that forcing employers to accommodate the needs of working mothers and their desire to work shorter hours, less overtime etc will lead to fewer women of child-bearing age being employed.
Yowser.
Here is the longer version of her argument, in the form of some extracts from her controversial article:
“Nobody can legislate a route through the conflict between work and motherhood.
Nobody can predict the visceral love you feel for your children, the fear you have when they are small that when you are not physically there, they might come to harm.
Neither can laws help the sickening exhaustion of endless, sleepless nights combined with working days and the seeming impossibility of achieving success as a worker, a mother, a wife, even at times as a human being.
But while a slew of government policies are aimed at helping working women achieve a more satisfactory existence, are they not losing sight of the real workplace picture?
And are they ignoring the evidence, not documented but heard in the beat of the tom-toms if you listen hard enough, that some of this legislation might even be harming women’s chances of employment?
I completely understand the decision of any woman to give up their job to stay at home with their children. And it seems entirely reasonable that in many situations a woman who becomes a mother will want to trade in her role for something less demanding.
But what I don’t understand is the idea that you should be able to keep exactly the same job, with all the advantages that entails, and work less for it, regardless of how that affects the office or colleagues.”
Shulman goes on to talk about how her own mother (a journalist in the 50s) took 2 weeks off and and “had to pretend to her male employers that pregnancy was a bit like flu – inconvenient and not worth discussing.” She returned to work because she needed the money and enjoyed her job. Shulman wonders if we’ve gone too far in the other direction…
“Nowadays, the majority of pregnant women I know take close to a year off, during which they are entitled to statutory maternity pay for up to 39 weeks. They return with the expectation and right to have their old job back after 52 weeks.
Except that, when they do return, many of them don’t want exactly their old job back. They want the same role but moulded into a time frame that suits family life better. They want to investigate four-day weeks, flexitime, jobshares, and they often then have another baby and are entitled to take another year off. But is this realistic?
I met a woman last week who heads up a small company. ‘You’re not allowed to say it, but the reality is that the maternity situation is a nightmare. ‘Of course what happens is that the younger ones in the office step up to fill the gap – and,’ she whispered, ‘they’re cheaper.
‘At the end of a year, how much do I really need that person back?’
Successful fashion entrepreneur Anya Hindmarch, who has built her own business while bringing up five children, adds another dissident voice. ‘If we are not careful (and I speak as a mother and an employer), maternity leave and benefits will become too biased towards the mother and not considerate enough for the employer. In which case, it can start to work against women as it becomes too complicated and expensive to employ them. To me, it shouts of shooting ourselves in the foot.’
Alex Shulman -who, as Vogue Editor, has a 90% female staff – is herself a single mother with one son, aged 14, and mentions that she has a live-in nanny because it’s cheaper than a live-out one and her job requires that much help.
“I have never worked a shorter week, partially because I want the full salary to pay for the private education of my son, the help and the house we live in. But it is also because I don’t, at root, think it would be the correct way to do this job.
I realise that most people are not in the same situation. They can’t afford childcare for their babies and their jobs neither pay so well nor are so fulfilling. But it’s not the workers on the factory line, the bank clerks, the farm hands or the Tube drivers who are successfully negotiating part-time deals or who are able to take a year’s maternity leave and then return.
It’s the young professionals, women who are the people I was 20 years ago.”
Shulman also questions how fair it is for women with ‘full-time’ jobs to demand flexible hours and gives examples of women who want to do the school run at 4pm or “make paper snowflakes with your four-year-old while a younger and undoubtedly worse paid and probably childless fellow employee is trying to solve a problem that needs to be dealt with now.”
And she wonders how fair it is to promote staff to cover for their colleagues while on maternity leave and then demote them to their former positions when the new mothers return.
Finally – and controversially – she concludes:
“….while employers certainly should have a duty of care for their employees, shouldn’t employees in turn have a certain duty of responsibility to their job?
How cherished does one feel as a boss by someone who is only at work nine months out of three years, the rest being taken as maternity leave, or by someone who – when resources are already stretched – forces a flexi-time deal?
Women have increasingly broken through that old glass ceiling with determination and, to be honest, helpful employment legislation.
As a result, many are now employers themselves. Let’s not put that progress back by creating a world where the next generation of women workers becomes too inconvenient and awkward to employ and find themselves legislated back into the home.”
Boxing gloves anyone? What a depressing read. I have been in exactly her shoes, managing a staff of women who have wanted flexible or altered working arrangements when they returned to work after having a baby.
I have also BEEN a woman who wanted a more flexible working arrangement in the months after the birth of my babies.
Sure, as a boss, you smile on the outside and sigh inwardly at the logistical nightmare that often creates for you but so what? I believe it’s worth it. I believe we don’t want to lose the services of women just because they have babies and I believe that in many cases, accommodating them is smart FOR THE EMPLOYER as well as morally the right thing for the women.
But I am a mother myself and that’s my belief. I’m not sure how I’d feel if I didn’t have children or didn’t believe in the fundamental need and right of women to stay working (if they want to) after having kids.
Maybe I’d feel differently if I didn’t have kids and I saw what I thought were women being treated more favourably after having kids. The joke of it is, of course, that there’s not really any such thing as part-time work or flexi hours. Not in many jobs.
In most cases, you’re paid pro-rata (eg: 3/5 of your salary if you work 3 days instead of 5) but you still end up working on those other days or working on weekends or in the evenings to keep up and compensate for the (technically unpaid) time you’re out of the office.
That’s certainly been my personal experience of working ‘part-time’.
What do you think? Are working mothers getting too greedy? Wanting their cake and eating it too? Or should smart employers find ways to accommodate the changing work requirements of mothers?
What about fathers? And if you don’t have kids, are you supportive of working mother’s desires to alter their work lives? How do things work in your workplace?
EARLIER ON MAMAMIA….
The New Young Domestic Goddesses
Having it all, just not at the same time
What do Stay At Home mums DO all day?
The cartoon that made working mothers cry
What’s the right amount of time to take for maternity leave?
I don’t know how you do it – the secret to being a happy mother
Comments
507 Comments so far
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I received more respect when I had a career (and had more money too).
Now that I have kids and am a house wife people tend to feel sorry for me, and I find it hard to feel proud of my job as Mum.
There is too much pressure for women to have career and kids at the same time.
My opinion is that house wife/mum is a full time job and if you want to work on top of that you need to organise/pay for support to make it happen. It’s greedy to work the two, raises our taxes, employers spend too much for less work. It also makes us too busy to connect with our community, visit our nanna etc…
As much as our government is trying to help mothers have it all, I feel they should try and help mothers stay at home to run the home, take care of the kids, it would help our communities/families. When the kids grow up, it would be great to help mothers get back into work.
And I could go on, but I’ll stop there, and hope that there is a future for full time mothers, more family support and positive communities.
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One thing I have taken from this debate is the question that, where are the fathers? Even now we don’t talk of paid parental leave it is all paid maternity leave. I remember my father warning me about what the phrase ‘having it all’ really meant, that it meant ‘having all the work’(both within the home and outside of it). I was glad I was told the truth early on with reality of having children, that unless you have a partner who is capable (and willing) of sharing half the workload inside and outside the home, be prepared to be tired. I grew up in a household with 5 siblings, with my little brother having down syndrome, my mum still is his full-time carer even though he is in his 20′s, but one thing I know that made my mum’s life less stressful was my dad putting in the effort as a parent and husband to my mum by doing half the housework and looking after us kids whenever he had the time as he had a very demanding job that required travel and long hours. I think the real debate should be why aren’t more men doing real housework and putting in more effort to raise the children they created- I know there are men out there who do, and they should be celebrated for it, but its obvious women wouldn’t have so much work and hard choices put upon them if men pulled up their socks and put a bit more effort in.
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Great topic. Very hard to generalise with an opinion because every woman’s situation is different.
I think we need to be broad minded and discuss options for women returning to work even though it is ‘hard’ but we do make up a significant percentage of the human race and therefore the workforce. I also think women in general try to do too much and I think it is a shame that more women don’t stay at home to raise their kids. I think there is something to the debate (and very sad) about having children under 2-3 in childcare. I understand that some people can’t afford to be at home with the kids full time BUT they are a precious thing to have in your life, a responsibility and they are only little for a short time. I also think the truth of the matter is a lot of women give birth and then ‘get bored’ with the day to day care of their children. Washing, ironing, cleaning up after them, changing nappies, taking them to the park, having a tea party, making playdough etc is not mentally stimulating so women opt out of these menial tasks and go back to work ‘because they have to’.
Personally, I knew I couldn’t continue working full time (and givng 120%) as I had for the last 12 years and be the mother I wanted to be. I tried working ‘part time’ and it was a joke. I attribute my resolve to staying at home with my little ones to the difficulties I had conceiving. During the time when I thought I couldn’t conceive I realised just how desperately I wanted to be a mother and I need to honour those feelings 100% now that I have two of the most precious things in the world (and I am pleased to say a third on the way). Although I haven’t had to do this, I told my husband that I would sell our house in Sydney or work at night when they were in bed rather than leave them (in childcare) to return to work. He knew I was dead serious and has respected my decision. I manage our finances carefully and manage to bring an income into the house which is much smaller than it used to be.
There are days when I go out of my head with boredom but I don’t think being a mother was meant to be easy – you just have to get on with it and stop thinking so much about your own needs. I feel really proud that when my kids learn new skills or show confidence with things that I’ve had a hand in their development. I really don’t want to share such a privledge with an oblivious childcare worker.
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I hear you and I think there would be fewer dilemmas all round if society overall had greater respect for the family unit.I think employers who don’t facilitate flexible work arrangements where possible are showing a lack of respect for this.I also believe that parents need to be more confident and assertive in their decision to stay home full-time if they choose rather than feeling that just because it isn’t paid it is somehow not of any value.If the aim is to produce future generations who are happy, healthy and productive-then the family unit needs to be nurtured and supported.
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It’s kinda sad you are so worried about Childcare. I worked two days week and we loved out childcare centre, the workers were fantastic, we have v fond memories of both our kids’ times there. I think great childcare workers complement and add to great mothering, because you get another important set of people in your kids’ lives, whose job and training gives them expertise about little children’s needs, who have programs in place to make the children’s time interesting and fun, and who get time off, holiday pay, sick leave so that when they are at work, they are mentally present and keen to intereract.
Don’t say it’s bc they don’t love your kids- who says? Ours did. And anyway, so what? Do you seriously expect your child’s first school teacher to love them? Or do you recognise they have a role to play and a job to do, and that affection, kindness, fun and boundaries are good enough for children for 6-8 hours a day.
I’m sorry about the length of my reply, but it makes me sad to think that you would rather work evenings than put your child in childcare- if you found a good centre, your child would thrive.
x
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I have just had a day that would spark the above topic. My story is not of financial burden, it is not of guilt towards choices, it is not of judgement on chosen scenarios or dramatic legal implications. My frustration is about having the choice.
I am in a position of returning to work whereby I am wanting to go back full time to my role but unfortunately it would disrupt the business at this stage. I have been given alternate options none of which are the same responsibility or interest me greatly enough to compensate a change.
I am frustrated.
I have been through the process of making my decisions of returning to work, for whatever reasons.
I have two degrees, two post professional qualifications and 15 years of hard work under my belt.
I held a job I love and in a company I am passionate about.
I have been upfront, honest and consistent in my intentions in returning to work and the role.
I worked tirelessly for the past two years above and beyond my exisiting contract.
I have never really been an outspoken womens activist.
I am on equal par in providing financial income into my family.
I have made a baby.
I have become a responsible parent.
but now I am in a position that the opportunities I previously explored and developed are taken away but because of an 8 month leave and my choices are limited.
If I accept an option I am not happy with then am I just conforming to the culture which frustrates many?
If I accept an option I am not happy with , give it a go and then argue for my role whilst at work for something that is technically mine in the first place am I adding any value?
If I fight for the role do I burn bridges and make for a constrained work environment?
If I look for work elsewhere am I forgoing my ethics about having given my all to that opportunity?
… and this is before even stepping back into the workforce with any other issues that may arise.
I don’t know what the answer is but what I do know is that I have to hope that talking about the current environment is a small step in the right direction.
I have to hope that everytime someone is choosing their options whether it be the employer or employee or self employed
that they are NOT doing it because they are not bothered
that they are NOT doing it because they have to financially forced
that they are NOT doing it because they are over it but
that they are doing it to create a culture that will allow for these choices to continue.
Here is to a little hope!
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Women can’t do right for doing wrong, especially as far as the child-free are concerned.
On the one hand, we have countless reports, research, and advice confirming that young children do best when brought up ‘at home’ primarily and mostly, cared for by a parent (usually the mother), compared to worse outcomes, mentally and emotionally, in those children who spend the majority of their early years brought up in a nursery or in childcare of some sort.
On the other hand, we have a government which, despite the social implications, are hell bent on getting women back into work once they have their baby. And spend time and money dreaming up ways, incentives, and bribes, to get women to go back to work. That coupled with ridiculously high house prices and mortgages, and the consumerist lifestyle we are encouraged to be part of, it is no wonder that most women ‘have’ to go back to work.
As a mother, you are looked down upon if you ‘give it all up to be a Stay-At-Home-Mother’ , yet you are moaned and complained about immensly if you decide to go back to work but try to strike a good balance.
Unfortunately, babies are not dolls. Or dogs. You cannot leave them home alone all day, you cannot just ring the childcare up at 4:30 and casually anounce you wont be there to pick the child up while 7 as you are working late that night.
And, I would really question the motives of any mother who is happy to have a baby, yet wants to get back to work within weeks of the birth, even if the work is only part time.
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I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.
Lucy
http://businesseshome.net
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i must say i’m probably one of the lucky ones my partner once we have kids is quite happy to be a stay at home dad if need be to give me time to develop my career (he’s 7 years older). unfortunately most women I gather may not get that support, even when they have higher paying jobs or stronger career prospects.
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but if you don’t have kids you don’t have the expenses of being a parent either, do you?
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Is there anything wrong with girls aspiring to be stay at home mothers or home-makers?
Or are only the career-driven and ambitious ones worthy of respect?
Why can’t a stay at home mother be an equally good role model?
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I think it is a huge shame that today both parents have to work. One of the main reasons humans have been so successful as a species is because there have always been two parents – one to look after the kids and one to bring home the bacon (and no, I’m not making that up, think of it literally…).
I also think that it’s a shame that a stay-at-home mum gets so little respect for the hard work that she does. At least in the 50′s (before women’s rights progress) it was understood that being a stay-at-home mum was WORK.
I don’t think that there is a simple solution because as far as I can tell, in most families, both parents have to work. I think that ideally though, one parent should choose (if possible) to stay home with the kids.
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People need to think more broadly than the stereotypes. Just because a mother works doesn’t mean she is away from her child 12 hours per day, not spending any quality time with them, or doesn’t care about them. A working mother is more thatn capable of providing a sense of security and connection and putting their child first.
Much like the generalisation that all SAHMs are ladies who lunch and watch Dr Phil, these assumptions are flawed and narrow-minded.
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“Women do not need to be protected from the consequences of their own choices. We are smart enough to weigh up the options and make our choices – and then take the good and the bad.”
Well said Jane – isn’t this just the absolute essence of equality?
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I’ll be the first to say, I’m torn on this one…
The part of me that is a single woman, who may never have children, does resent the allowances made for working mothers – allowances that aren’t available to me, no matter what my other commitments…
But then the feminist side of me fires up because it’s really only the female parent whose careers suffers with the birth of a child – right or wrong, the father in a two-parent family is rarely the primary caregiver, so his career doesn’t suffer as much – it’s the working mums and single mums who end up making the sacrifices, and taking away those rights will only cause them more difficulty…
No simple solution…
x TDMJ
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I’ll guarantee you no child aged between 2 months and 5 years is influenced in a positive way by their working Mum. If they remember anything at all it’ll be the hustle & bustle of the childcare shuffle.
What is being modelled by a working mother that can’t be modelled by a SAHM? Independance? Intelligence? Compassion? Thoughtfulness? Honesty? Patience? Humour? Work-ethic? Organisation? ……?????
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I can’t get over the amount of comments on here women attacking each others choices. I think it is a tough question. Women do get the rough end of the stick when it comes to working and raising children at the same time. I am a SAHM and I admire women who work and raise children and wrestle with the guilt associated with childcare. I do also think that that Vogue editor has a case with regard to others picking up the slack and mothers demanding more money for less hours and all that.
I think it is society’s fault. We pay so much tax to the govt. who waste it and now schools and hospitals are in a shambles. Then women have to work to pay for private health cover and private school fees just to cover the necessities in life. Not to mention grocery prices and fuel to boot. Times are tough, and women will always need to work while these things cost a lot of money. And before anyone says “You don’t need private schooling and private health cover” Well if you live where I live (Western NSW) and there are no choices of decent school and health is a joke you would understand what I mean.
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Just on “I never went to childcare consequently I was a social wreck at school…” I think this has more to do with personality than the much vaunted “social skills of childcare”.
Our first child happily went off to school without a backward glance (he’d never set foot in the place til he started there)..our third child, who had since birth visited the school weekly & knew all of the kids in several years not just his own, took a full term to go off happily.
Parents, IMO being with your child, giving them a sense of security and connection is by FAR the most valuable thing you can give your child/ren. 5 years is a blink of an eye in the scheme of things.
A 0-5 year old isn’t going to admire you for being independant or see you as a role model. Seriously..think about it..how ridiculous…people need to stop kidding themselves. So many comments are about the mother and how she feels and what she needs…what about the children? What is best for the children? No-one is putting the children first, and they should be.
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Massive sigh..and I haven’t even finished reading the carry on in the comments….I can see Alex’s point of view although I hate to admit it as someone who is losing out career wise because I’ve got kids. We need to have this debate..and we should not let it polarise, maybe it will trigger people to restructure working patterns instead. Women fighting women will not acheive anything. If Alex S is right and I hope she is not, then we will have no diversity in workplaces if employers avoid child bearing women –imagine an organisation where there are no mothers at all. Employers get more than their money’s worth from part time women workers.. but until the skills shortage starts to really bite, it will just be business as usual. The thing is too, that the ‘time off to have your baby’ is just the start of it. You need flexibility for alot longer than the preschool years unless you are rich enough to afford nannies or lucky enough to have parents or other relatives just around the corner to do school pick ups drop offs, after school activities bla bla. And on a related topic, a huge thankyou to Mia for talking abour redefining feminism in Sunday Life today. Throw the slippers at the tosser, I say. Your Column is the only thing I read in that shallow mag.
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Argh I am a bit late to the table- I hope someone reads this.
I am TOTALLY with all the heaps of other people who basically say ‘live and let live’ and ‘no judgement’ to what ever a woman chooses to do after she has kids.
But a reminder: Needing some ‘me time’ is not the only reason mothers go to work. People tend to forget or not notice that having a working mum can be a great influence on children. As a young woman, every single one of my female friends who is driven and ambitious and conscious of not wanting to just marry rich as a replacement for a career, has a mother who worked. (yes, yes, I know…this can occur in girls whose mothers SAH and they may have other positive characteristics- don’t jump down my throat). Working is not only something to do to ‘keep sane’ or what ever, but also can be a good influence for the kids.
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You are right TeddyBear. However, I think it’s important to remind everyone that needing some ‘me time’ is not the only reason mothers go to work. People tend to forget or not notice that having a working mum can be a great influence on children. As a young woman, every single one of my female friends who is driven and ambitious and conscious of not wanting to just marry rich as a replacement for a career, has a mother who worked. (yes, yes, I know…this can occur in girls whose mothers SAH and they may have other positive characteristics- don’t jump down my throat). Working is not only something to do to ‘keep sane’ or what ever, but also can be a good influence for the kids.
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My parents both full-time worked out of necessity since my youngest brother was two and I was eight. We had no assets and they both worked extremely hard in their respective fields to buy a house and provide for their three children. During this time we were cared for in our home by a nanny. My parents tried to be at all our importants events for school and, for the most part, they were, but if they could not be there, we had our nanny. She was an intelligent young lady (24yo when she started) who instilled in me a love of reading and writing, counselled me through all my teenage problems that my parents would consider trivial, tutored me with all my schoolwork and provided me with a strong friendship which continues today (I am now 20).
Many people judged and looked down on my parents (especially the SAHM of other kids) for working fulltime during our formative years but I don’t feel like I have been short-changed in any way. I know that not everybody can afford a nanny (I don’t know how much they charge nowadays in comparison to childcare centres) but I just thought that I would share my experience.
BTW – I was sent to a childcare centre for a short time and I really hated it! From that experience I would never send my child to one on a regular basis. Even as a 3-year-old child, for the short time I spent there, I found it so depressing. I felt like a number rather than an individual, and I still don’t understand why people work with children if they don’t seem to actually like them (this goes for teachers too!) Again, that is just my personal experience, and I’m sure there are lovely childcare centres around.
Anyway, I agree with Mia – it is difficult for employers to accommodate mothers but, ultimately, it is for the best. I really like Sweden’s maternity leave system where it is compulsory for the mother or the father to take a year off (paid – but it doesn’t need to be taken all at once). It means that people are not judged for taking time off or not taking time off, because everybody has to do it!
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If you are confident with your choice and know you are doing the best thing for your family and yourself other peoples opinions should mean nothing. I dont feel guilt because I am confident with my choices as a mum. I have had criticism about my choice from others. People will always judge. SOmetimes out of jealousy, other times to justify their own choice and guilt. Sometimes because they genuinely think we are doing the wrong thing by our family or ourselves. But you know what? I am not sensitive to other peoples opinions about me. I dont care what they think. I am happy with my choice. If you are too and your kids arent about to be taken away by DOCS and you’re not about to collapse from doing too much then who cares what others think?
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Not your employers problem!
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reading that made me cry, & such a wise last sentence. if only we could all remember that all the time the world would be a much kinder more understanding place
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I have to admit, I’ve only had the time to read about 2 pages of comments given my new baby takes up a fair amount of my time. What I find very interesting is the amount of effort we put into attacking different opinions.
I have been on both sides of this argument and I have to admit that women with children can make demands that disadvantage those without. Most of the time these childless women grit their teeth thinking that maybe one day they will need 5 paid days off a week and a roster that suits their every need(and sometimes whim) and put up with the situation. But is this really fair to them? People have family commitments that extend beyond children yet these are the commitments that always come first.
Also, their are men who have to silently accept long and unsociable hours to accomodate others. Why do we not include fathers in this discussion?
I do not yet have to think about going back to work, but I will always follow my grandmothers sentiment, ‘ If you’re at work, work.If you’re at home, enjoy it.’ Trust me I know it’s work too but I dont expect that others will have to carry the load that I agreed to take on.
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Hi Bebem,
If that’s what you got out of the comments and didn’t find them offensive then that’s great and your perogative. Of course I wish for my child to have a caring and compassionate teacher when the time comes and I wouldn’t suggest for a second that she isn’t a great and caring teacher. I also hope that nothing I’ve said has been construed as an attack…I’ve never intended to make attacking comments and apologise if I have. Disagree? Yes maybe. Attack? Not my style and never cool.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what I DID take offence and exception to was the comment about academic ability and social skills being directly linked to daycare vs non daycare kids. That comment hasn’t ever been expanded, or supported by any evidence even in the back peddle reply of our teacher. So, as a working mum yourself I’m surprised that that didn’t worry you, but if it didn’t then that’s cool. You see, respecting other people’s opinions also means not telling them what they should and shouldn’t find upsetting. I found it offensive, and lots of others did too. I believe with damn good reason.
Yeah the issue of having to vs not having to work purely for material reasons is bound to get up some people’s noses but I can also tell you that plenty of materialism goes on with non working mothers too..in fact in my area most of the yummy mummy 4wd brigade don’t work. But you know what? That’s their choice, good on them. I know it must be hard as a teacher having to comfort kids whose parents can’t make it to special events, but let’s face it it’s not just work that prevents parents always being there. I work with a woman who has had her child in long daycare from the age of 12 weeks…full time. That was her choice but I can also say that she NEVER misses an assembly, play, sports carnival…nothing. Which brings us back to the original reason for this post…flexible working conditions. Our company is flexible and therefore attracts and retains good and experienced staff.
I’ve personally just started back at work part time, and I choose to do this so that I can contribute to the mortgage, save for my Son’s education, live a reasonable lifestyle (which doesn’t include expensive presents I can add) and also, whether this is selfish or not I don’t know but I need some stimulation and challenge. I think if I didn’t have anything outside being a mum, I personally would go insane, and this can’t be good for kids to be around can it? My company held my job for 12 months, and if I didn’t go back I would have had to resign. No major biggie, but who will want to employ someone after 3 years out of the workforce and pay for re-training or deal with the 6-12 months it takes to get some payback?
I strongly believe that a happy mum equals a happy child. I don’t expect to be judged for making the choice to work but I’m sure I will be, and so be it, I’m comfortable and happy with this balance and that’s all that matters. Horses for courses. If you want to and can stay home, good for you. Whatever’s best for you and your family.
Re the comment about feeling sorry for parents that have to work, it’s again a judgement on those that choose to work. Not all parents that choose to work are doing it so they can buy material things and get acrylic nails. That is ridiculous.
I guess in a sense we’re all arguing for the same end, and that is, the overwhelming love for our kids and their wellbeing. It’s such an emotive topic, and we’re all doing our best, just not all in exactly the same way and that’s ok surely?
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Further to the Guest Primary Teachers Comments I have been told that stressed busy parents often dont have the time or energy to read to their children and establish a bedtime story routine which is extremely important for a childs reading skills. I know I didnt read as much to my children as I should have so this has made me look at what I was doing and make this a priority. Instead of being defensive about it I considered that maybe I dont have all the answers and maybe my kids could benefit from listening to others instead of dismissing their opinions because they dont suit me.
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Do you know what? I’m sick of being told that we can’t have it all. Why not? Most days I feel like I have it all. And it’s great. Bloody hard work but great nonetheless.
But really I think it should be everyone’s choice, based on their circumstances. Some circumstances suck and there’s not much you can do about that. But what we can do is say that the choice is OURS – not our employer’s, not some judgemental commenter’s.
Employers need to toughen the fuck up and treat people like people, not commodities. Parents (mothers and fathers) need to be comfortable that their work arrangement is the best thing for their family, and if they feel like this will be much more productive workers. Capitalism being what it is this requires government intervention so ensure that flexible work, paid parental leave etc help out with this. Just my thoughts.
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I am currently a SAHM with plans to return to work next year 2 days a week to begin with. Prior to becoming a mother I worked as a secondary teacher. What really irritated me was the working mums who constantly took days off to look after their sick kids, who left work early and missed utterly boring meetings I had to attend, who didn’t do their jobs properly (no preparation, just letting students do whatever) and their students would complain to me and other teachers and who continued to work full time earning more money than I did because I was less senior but I had to not only do my own job but also take on some of their work. I’m not saying every working mother is like this, but there were more than one. I have also seen very dedicated hard working teachers who are mums, but I am very frustrated with those women who ‘work’ but don’t do their job because they have children. That’s why I am only going back two days a week to begin with because I want to do my job properly while there but also spend a lot of time with my darling daughter. Time I can never get back.
As for the issue of hurting employers I do think some women abuse the system and I don’t understand why these women are still employed but I think supporting women to return to the workplace with part time work is sensible to keep on experienced women in the work force.
Also, as a teacher, I have seen terror students whose parents both work very long hours and miss their child’s important events. These parents ‘make it up’ to their kids with expensive gifts, but what the kids really want and need is attention from and time with their parents. A psychologist friend told me recently that a study has been done which showed that children who misbehave at school or miss a lot of school are actually unhappy in the home.
I do understand that some people have to work and if that’s the case I don’t think all is lost and you can make it up to your kids just by spending quality time with them whenever you can. But I do believe that it is important for children in their early years to have a primary caregiver, whether that be mother, father, aunt, grandmother, friend, nanny, etc and if you really don’t have to work full time then it’s better to work less and spend more time with your kids.
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Thank you Elizabeth. When I hear opinions like yours I am reminded that although our current maternity leave and support systems are not perfect, we have come a long way from the days when everybody thought like this.
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Nope, not projecting my issues Anon, I’m expecting my first baby and plan to be a SAHM for as long as possible. It just irritates me that so many women feel guilt about their choices because of negative, baseless ‘facts’ like the ones presented by Guest. We should support each parents choice to do what is best for their family, rather than passing judgement.
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Danielle… I am a working mother and I read her post many times before I made that response. I just don’t understand why everyone got so upset about it. I did not think she was accusing people of anything. She was telling us about her feelings and thats what you have been doing and everyone else on this forum have been doing. Why do we feel we need to attack the person for expresssing their vew point? What I got from her is that she CARES about the kids in her care and their circumstances. She is like my children’s teacher that would wipe their tears and answer their questions of where my husand or I am etc etc after I have left my children in her care and have gone to work. She is in the front end of this and as such she is entitled to her own opinion.
In my opinion all she said was ,( in my own summary) mothers who went back to work so they can pay for their mani/pedi, 4 WDs and what not (basically mothers that are after material things and status symbols) are the ones that get under her skin. Let’s face it, there are other mothers out there like that and I know of plenty and I am sure everyone does and I am sure most people will say they do get under their skins too. Because they DO get under my skin!
She also said she feels bad for the kids of mothers that have to work. Honestly I hope all teachers feel that and especially my children’s teachers. If teachers just shrug their shoulders at kids and not show extra compassion to those kids where their parents couldn’t make it to their special days or can’t be there for whatever reason then really, do you want those compassionless people to look after your children? I would prefer someone who cares.
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I apologise if I’m repeating any points made below..but just wanted to share…I see Shulman as throwing up her hands at the working-mother-employee issue, and I find that incredibly depressing. I’m not a mother and I’ve seen childless employees being discriminated against when it came to travel expectations (‘you don’t have kids, so you can be on the road non-stop), but on the other hand I intend to have kids someday and I really hope that my boss at that stage isn’t like Shulman.
To summarise: All women, mothers or not, need to be treated fairly. I hate how these issues start us squaring off against each other. Ladies, think about if the shoe was on the other foot and treat people accordingly.
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I’ve got to say sorry TeddyBear but, the ‘there is no harder job’ has always irritated me somewhat. It is SO subjective – depends what your job is/was, depends on how your kids are, depends on how you deal with different types of stress. For me, my long hours/high stress working environment where I managed dozens of people and spent every week on a plane was far far more stressful than anything I have experienced being a SAHM. Yes, hideous temper tantrums, bleeding nipples and screaming children are hard, but at the end of the day if I am at the end of my tether I can put them in their rooms and walk away for ten minutes. Could never do that in a board meeting. Then again, my children are healthy, young and good sleepers. If I had sick children or was dealing with years of sleeplessness, it might be a different story. My point being, I think it really depends on the person/situation – I don’t necessarily think the blanket statement covers all….
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Sorry guest but think you have misinterpreted.. she’s not implying that daycare kids are smarter….quite the opposite I think you’ll find
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It’s not being angry at someone else’s opinion at all or feeling guilty about decisions made. Everyone has the right to an opinion…it’s about taking exception to sweeping generalisations and harsh judgement, that’s all. All of this coming from a teacher…a role model that should be exhibiting tolerance rather thank asking the world to be thankful for teachers like her. Puh-lease. I don’t understand how we can’t accept that there isn’t a one size fits all approach to this issue, that each parent will do what is right for them and their child. Being at home 24/7 or working full time does not mean you love, educate or nurture your child any better than anyone else. Families should do what is right for them and not attack those that aren’t doing it your way.
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Guest Primary School Teacher… I love your response and agree with you totally. I also think the people that jumped down your throat (so to speak) are probably suffering from some guilt from the deicions that they have made when it comes to work and their kids. Otherwise why would they get so angry about someone else’s opinion?
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OK everyone seems to be misinterpreting what the Guest Primary School Teacher has said. I don’t think she is saying that children who have been in care are smarter than those who haven’t been. Its just that those who had been in care may know a few more things than those who didn’t as they were exposed to more learning situations. I’m sure that’s not always the case but as a SAHM I think my children have been exposed to more things at preschool/daycare than they would have been had they relied on me for their pre-school education!! I think there language skills are better from being exposed to more people thru preschool and daycare! They learned a lot of songs that I would not have played eg. Advance Australia fair!!!! Maybe you will all just think I’m a slack mum but it wouldn’t occur to me to teach them that! That is not to say therefore that my children are smarter or that the children who didn’t go into some form of care won’t soon be at the same level if not higher. It’s just that it might be obvious in the beginning. And she didn’t say that the children whose parents choose to work suffer more. She said that she feels for the parents who have to work but not for the ones who don’t necessarily have to work but do anyway just so that they can have all these luxuries at the expense of not spending much time with their kids. I have to wonder if the women who have reacted negatively to this woman’s comments are projecting their issues onto her!!
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I think u will find she was talking about the parents who work but don’t do any of the things that you listed above.
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Gen Y does not think we can have it all…it’s the illusion of the Gen X. We were the first ones to realise that we can’t have it all. Nobody can.
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K, you haven’t done either of those things…and I honestly wasn’t expecting you to validate my decision. I guess I was simply trying to explain that sometimes childcare can be a positive…it certainly has been for me. And, for the record, I’ve read both authors but my experience isn’t consistent with their stances.
Anyway, I’m done debating this issue…clearly we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
All the best.
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That’s so sad! I was shunted off to boarding school for my final year of high school after my parents separated. Having always been a day student it was a bit of a culture shock. I didn’t like the restrictions but I did buckle down with my studies – what else was there to do! I liked the kids too! But I will never send my kids to boarding school!! I know that some people have to because they live in rural areas etc but I just don’t think its natural! Kids should live at home with their parents!
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I agree, do the pros and cons list and if they’re looking pretty equal, ultimately go with your gut instincts. They’re rarely if ever wrong. Good luck!
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No actually, she said that she can tell the children that have had a full time parent at home versus those that have been in childcare due to their socialisation skills and academic ability. Massive and really hurtful call. Little Johnny whose mum has acrylic nails and a ‘dye job’ that wants to work to the detriment of her child is her genius generalisation of all working mothers and their selfish ways. She then had the gall to suggest that many commenters views were naive. She wasn’t sharing an honest opinion without judgement, it was an honest opinion FULL of judgement. Big difference.
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I find the argument that “it was your choice to have a baby” hilarious because they seem to forget they WERE a baby once… whether or not they have their own
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I think you’ll find it was your comment that you can tell which children have been in full time care with parents vs those in daycare through their academic ability that came across as unreasonable. Secondly, it is not a ‘fact’ that children whose parents choose to work suffer while those whose parents ‘have to’ work don’t. That’s your personal opinion, of which you are entitled too, but it is very judgemental to generalise that way.
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Every time I am torn by a decision I do a for and against list. Be brutually honest and you will find your answer. At the end of the day whatever you decide isnt set in stone. If it turns out you made the wrong choice you can always change your mind….
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do what your heart tells you to do Suzy and DON’T listen to anyone else..only your heart knows what is right for you and your situation..xxx
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As a Diploma {with 2 years under my belt} $21.49 an hour.
As a TRAINED FOURTH YEAR TEACHER {meaning i have completed the degree that i am studying} $22.74 an hour.
You dont need to tell me about the lack of funding. I have been at centres where child care costs are $120 per day {corporate centre and that was for 0-2 year olds with a MINIMUM of two day}.
Personally I think the lack of support that we have been given over the years – after all arent we just glorified babysitters as most people would say.. – is horrible. But that is society for you.
They are stereotypical with us. Just like they are with mothers who go back into the workforce.
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This is why these articles never achieve anything except anger. We have had people sharing their honest experieces, without judgement, getting personally attacked left, right and centre. We have a professional school teacher (who last time I checked had to do a 4yr university degree to do so) sharing her honest experiences as a professional caring and educating other peoples children 35 hours pw. She was sharing her observations of families whose choices dont place their childrens needs high on the priority list. She wasnt saying working mums are evil. She is one herself. She said she felt for most of them. They try hard to keep their kids happy and keep their jobs. She was saying she can spot the mums who dont seem to give a rats about their kids feelings and she tries hard to make it up to these kids.
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“If my opinions and experiences anger or insult you then it may be time to take a look at yourself”
And the same goes for you.